Nicole [00:00:00]: You're a very smart, intelligent man. You got on this podcast and helped people, and you did give good advice, but you still weren't following it yourself.

John [00:00:08]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:00:09]: And so if you are capable of falling into these things. I know other men are. By being like, oh, well, the woman just doesn't care about how I feel. That is a victim mindset. Don't act like you're one of the rare people that are doing everything right, because, let's be real, you're probably not. Because it's probably like 2% of men if that.

John [00:00:28]: Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the better than Perfect podcast, where two people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship every week. Oh. Where every week.

Nicole [00:00:54]: Forgot that part.

John [00:00:55]: I forgot. Yeah. Every week we share how two people growing, two people helping each other grow

Nicole [00:01:02]: equals one better than perfect relationship. It threw you off because last week it was just you and you were like two people.

John [00:01:11]: I'm just by myself, but,

Nicole [00:01:16]: yeah, so, I mean, I'm back.

John [00:01:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:19]: But we're still.

John [00:01:20]: A lot of people are probably surprised to see you.

Nicole [00:01:22]: Yeah, I mean, I'm. When I think about it, I mean, hearing the things that you said, like, you said, it is. It's been a lot, and we're still working through things. It's just going to take time. Takes time to rebuild trust and things like that. But John, I will say, has shown up in his integrity since all the stuff went down, and I'm just hoping that that will just be his new normal. I know what he's capable of. I always have. And I do think at times, talking about the things in the past that I've been kind of blinded maybe by his potential rather than how he's shown up and, you know, especially, like you said, the arguments and things like that. But we're married, and you deserve the chance to be that version of yourself that I know you want to be and I know you can be. And hopefully you'll just continue down that path. I think that you will, based on how you've shown up and.

John [00:02:30]: Yeah, I will.

Nicole [00:02:32]: That we won't ever have to stop the podcast because you done messed up one too many times.

John [00:02:37]: Right. Or, like, have the.

Nicole [00:02:39]: But you are. You are at the last. This is the last chance, which I know. You know, but.

John [00:02:45]: Yeah, no, I. I know. Like, I mean, I. I've learned the things that I needed to learn. They were hard lessons.

Nicole [00:02:54]: I didn't know you had listened to your wife before.

John [00:02:57]: Sometimes you had.

Nicole [00:02:57]: She told you all these things.

John [00:02:59]: I'm just sorry that I was hurting you so much that I didn't realize in the conversations that we were having. And the way I was doing, like, now that I see the way it's been a month, basically, and I have shown up in a different way now that I see how to operate, it makes it very clear how I was not operating. You know, if that makes it like. It makes it very clear, like, how the things that I was doing in the past and the way I was speaking in the past must have been so hurtful.

Nicole [00:03:33]: Yeah, right.

John [00:03:35]: Because I see how different it is now when you're doing it the right way.

Nicole [00:03:40]: Right, right.

John [00:03:41]: And so that is why I'm very committed to that. Because now that I've seen that, I can't unsee,

Nicole [00:03:50]: you know, and I told you when all this, like, went down. And I think it's important, and I know you gave men and women too, if they're doing these things, really good advice on the last episode. But really the best advice to live in your integrity is to treat people the way you want to be treated. And I don't feel like men specifically just because they don't really think very far ahead, which is why I'm singling them out. I don't think they think about the repercussions of the things that they're doing long term. And it's not acceptable to just accept that and have that be an excuse for why they are negligent in preparing for those things.

John [00:04:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:44]: Because let's be real here and please, I cannot wait to see the comments on this. But, like, what you have come on here and talked about that you have done.

John [00:04:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:00]: If a woman did that, if a man even heard a story of a woman doing that.

John [00:05:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:05]: It would be unacceptable.

John [00:05:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:08]: And so that's the thing is, like, if you are thinking of cheating on a woman or whatever.

John [00:05:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:17]: You need to think about if I did, if this happened to me, if she cheated on me, if she lied to me for this many years, how would that make me feel? And really think about that. Don't think about it from a selfish of like, oh, well, I'd get over it. No, like, really think about if it. As if it actually happened to you. I'm pulling like a Tony Robbins. Like, yeah, cry if you need to, but really, because that will affect your decision moving forward. And you'll be like, okay, I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. But cheating would be really bad to do to somebody. And I really would. I would rather be broken up with than cheated on, for sure. And so I'm going to break up with someone rather than cheat on them.

John [00:06:03]: Well. And what I keep on hearing from, from you, from other women, from, like, the Instagram, you know, from carousels, and, like, it's all showing up in my feed now, is the exact same thing, which is if you just told me we could have worked it out, we could have figured out the things we could have solved together as a team. We could have, right? Instead of you hiding how you're feeling, what you're doing, because what it is. And this is why being emotionally available, I guess that's not even the word, being emotionally vulnerable as a man is so important to a woman's safety, is what I'm discovering is that that's where it begins. Because if I hide from you a struggle that's going on, that is in regards to you in our relationship, and I just bury that, then you didn't have a chance to resolve it. You didn't have a chance to talk about it, to solve it with me. And then I go and do something like text someone or cheat or whatever, whatever us guys do to take care of our problem ourself, you know, whatever just, you know, justification that we have, and then we lie about it and cover it up, and then it's like it comes all the way back to the beginning. Why didn't you just tell me from the very beginning that you're upset with me or that there was something that you needed that you weren't getting, or there was something like. Or that you were hurt by something, and. But then you told me that everything was okay, right? And I believed it, and I trusted you and I felt safe. And then you did something behind my back, and then you lied about it, and then you continue to lie about it, and now how can I ever feel safe again? How can I ever trust you again?

Nicole [00:07:59]: And it just doesn't make sense to do, like you said, like, instead of just talking about the thing initially, why would you choose not to do that? The easier thing, even if it feels hard in the moment, and instead do something that is a complete and utter betrayal of the entire relationship, like cheating or lying or like, in a big way, like those things, you chose to not do the simple, easy thing, right? Because you felt like that was too hard. But then you do something that now

John [00:08:33]: create a super hard.

Nicole [00:08:34]: You jeopardized your whole relationship. Like, you might not even have the relationship anymore.

John [00:08:40]: And now it's going to be a super hard thing to tell the truth on that. Whereas.

Nicole [00:08:43]: Right. It's a lot.

John [00:08:43]: The other thing would have been easier to just talk about. And. And, well, and the other thing that. I think the reason why, what held me back from that and what I learned in the last, you know, few weeks or so was just telling you about how I feel about something.

Nicole [00:08:59]: Right.

John [00:09:00]: And then trusting you. You know what I mean? Like, I was not trusting you. Like, so I was.

Nicole [00:09:06]: That was projection. It was projection.

John [00:09:07]: Oh, yeah. You didn't do anything to.

Nicole [00:09:09]: That was unjust. Worthy. Yeah.

John [00:09:10]: I don't mean to apply that, but.

Nicole [00:09:11]: No, but I've been saying that's the problem when you'.

John [00:09:14]: Trust.

Nicole [00:09:15]: Exactly. When you're not in your integrity, you are skeptical of other people because you know what people are capable of because you know what you have done.

John [00:09:23]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:09:24]: And you think everyone else will do that.

John [00:09:26]: Right. Right.

Nicole [00:09:27]: Which is not the case. Like, yes, sure, a lot of people will do that. A lot of people will lie and cheat or whatever, but there are also a lot of people who won't. And they won't do it because of what it does to them. And that's the conversation that you and I have been having as well, too, is like, I would never cheat on you.

John [00:09:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:47]: I know that for a fact. And you've sat on this podcast at times and been like, well, you know, no one's over the influence. And yes, but also, no, because if someone's in their integrity, they're not gonna be influenced. They might be influenced to maybe not wanna be with you, but if they don't wanna be with you, that doesn't mean that they're gonna cheat on you.

John [00:10:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:11]: They'll just leave you. You know what I mean? Like, so I'm not saying that you're not entirely true, because people can be influenced, even people who think that they can't be influenced.

John [00:10:19]: But. But if you're in your integrity, if

Nicole [00:10:22]: you are not the type of person that would betray someone in that way, that would lie to someone, that would hurt someone in that way.

John [00:10:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:31]: Then you're not going to do it.

John [00:10:32]: Then you're never gonna do it.

Nicole [00:10:33]: You would do the hard thing of having to have a hard conversation and be like, look, I don't wanna be with you anymore, which is still hard.

John [00:10:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:41]: But you wouldn't do the betrayal thing because you know what it would do to someone else. You know how it would break someone else.

John [00:10:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:49]: And you also know what it would do to you and how you feel about yourself.

John [00:10:54]: And here's the connection to this that I discovered in myself, right. Which is connected to the vulnerability is that like, because when you don't consider the other person the inconsideration, which is the selfishness, it's usually because you're in a great deal of pain and your pain overrides, right.

Nicole [00:11:11]: You only care about your pain.

John [00:11:12]: And here's the thing about it. It's like the reason why you're in that deal, great deal of pain is because you're not sharing it, right. So when I go back and I look and I look at my history and I look at when I left you, right. And broke up with you and did you know, multiple times, you know, and like, why did I do it? Well, my rationale just. I was in a great deal of pain. So because I was in so much pain myself, I didn't even think what will leaving Nicole, who we love each other, we are trying to build a life together. What will that do to her? What will it be like for her to be in an apartment that is our apartment by herself, having suddenly sprung this on her and she's going to have to go to sleep at night not knowing are we going to get back together? What is he doing? Where is he at? That didn't even come into my mind, I'm sad to say, because I was in so much pain. Now here's the point that I'm getting to because what I'm saying is that if instead of me holding on to that pain, I would have shared with you, I'm in a lot of pain right now. This is what's going on with me. Then I wouldn't have. Then I would be still in consideration of you, you know what I'm saying? So that's why it's so important to like be actually vulnerable as a man.

Nicole [00:12:34]: Pain you wouldn't feel like you have to deal with it all on your own.

John [00:12:36]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:12:37]: But I'm gonna say two things. One, we had a different topic we were gonna do, but I think that this is.

John [00:12:41]: Yeah, that's what I actually the same thing.

Nicole [00:12:43]: Yeah, but. And two, I still think that that is a male dominated problem.

John [00:12:51]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:12:52]: Because.

John [00:12:52]: Exactly, exactly.

Nicole [00:12:53]: Here's the thing, is that through all of this, what if I told you that I wanted you to not tell your daughter, which hopefully she doesn't watch the other episode. Honestly, I hope she doesn't.

John [00:13:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:11]: Because I don't want her to treat you differently without like, she doesn't know the full Story. And, like, I don't want her to have different feelings towards you because of what you've done to me. And so I have been in the most pain of my entire life and still am looking out for you and her, right?

John [00:13:34]: That's considering people while you're in.

Nicole [00:13:36]: Yeah, right. But see, I do think it's a man.

John [00:13:39]: It is.

Nicole [00:13:39]: It is problem of that. They think their pain is all that matters, right? And then they just steamroll everyone else in their.

John [00:13:47]: That's where reactivity comes from, right? That, like, reacting. It comes from that same thing, from that pain, from. Because when I was being reactive to you, it was because, oh, you hurt me. So now I'm gonna, like, act this way, right? Like, because it's so great, right? But everything is hurting me now at that point, right? Like, so. But the thing is. But you're right that it's a male problem.

Nicole [00:14:11]: Well, women do it too. Don't get me wrong. Like, some women allow their hurt to also, like.

John [00:14:16]: But, you know, but this, like, pattern is a male problem, right? Like, I. Because we got to the cheating thing and we've had this discussion before, and you've been like, well, you know, men are the cheaters. And I'm like, well, women cheat too. And it's like, okay, but no, now I agree with you. Like, in the sense that, like, yes, women do cheat too. But when I look at the pattern and I look at all the things that women are saying and I look at, like, I really examine this, I see that women, like, want to be able to trust and they want safety and they want honesty, right. More than anything else as a foundation of the relationship. Men don't. Obviously, men want that, but it's not as critical to them. And the reason why I say that is because they're not as empathetic to understanding that. Because if you fundamentally understand that as a man that that's what a woman primarily wants, then you'll understand the conditions in which she would cheat. And you would understand the conditions in which you would cheat. And you would understand that. That this type of cheating problem is solely a male problem. And the pattern that we have is that as a man, right, you don't want to appear weak. So when you're in hurting, when you're in pain, you tend to hurt alone. And you don't tell it to your partner. And so maybe you resent them or whatever it is, or you hide it and you cover it up, and then your pain becomes so great, like, you selfishly hold onto your pain. So much that you do actions that you're not considering your partner because you're just thinking about yourself and you're thinking about your pain. Whereas women don't operate that way in general. Yes, some women could. But in general, when a woman's in pain that she doesn't disregard everyone else. And men tend to do that. And so that's why it's very important for men also to not have the victim mindset, because I've had the victim mindset at times. And when you're in the victim mindset, that's why women are so afraid of men that have a victim mindset. Because a victim mindset, man is a dangerous man because he's going to go into his pain and then do shit and lie and whatever and not in that care. He's not going to consider you because his pain is so great to him. If he can't handle his own pain, then he can't, he can't. He could do anything to you.

Nicole [00:16:30]: Right?

John [00:16:31]: And that's, and that's the scary part about it. And that's why like, guys are like. And this also connects because guys like, oh, women don't care about men's emotions. We've talked about it before, right? And there, and there's a little bit of truth to it, but the bigger truth to it is this, is that guys will say when I share.

Nicole [00:16:49]: I think you said that and it wasn't true.

John [00:16:51]: Well, guys will say this specifically, this one I haven't agreed with, but I understand more about it now, which is that when I share my emotions with my woman, she's less attracted to me and she doesn't care. Here's the thing, why it feels that way because you're in the victim mindset, sharing the victim mindset with your woman. You think it's your feelings, but it's not your vulnerable feelings. It's your self defeatist victim mindset. Woe is me, pity me. Which she doesn't respond to positively because it's a threat to her safety. Because she's like, if you're so like down on yourself, you're the victim, then I know that you're not going to care about me and you and you're, and you're a dangerous man now. And that's why women don't act empathetically to a guy being in the victim mindset who thinks he's just sharing his feelings. Whereas what I learned in the last month or so was that there's a way to share your feelings.

Nicole [00:17:56]: Mm.

John [00:17:57]: That's the vulnerable way, that's not accusatory, that's not blaming anyone, that's honest about this, is what's going on for me right now. And that a woman will respond to empathetically, more so than even a man would, more than you even wanted her to, more than you even think you deserve to, because you're doing it in the right way. That's not the victim mindset. That's not. Woe is me. Pity me, like, you know, or it's your fault that I feel this way. It's. This is what I'm owning it. And I'm being brave enough to share this with you so that you don't have to feel like I'm hiding. Cause you know something's already wrong with me. You know something's wrong in the relationship. And me hiding that. Or like victim mindset, revealing it to you in such a way that it's like I'm the victim is a weakness and it's gonna jeopardize your safety.

Nicole [00:18:50]: Right? It's either that, like you just said. Cause I agree, it could be that. I think also, like I just said, like, at times you would say those things to me, but I think that it was a projection. I think that, you know, men might be like, women don't care about my feelings. If you're not listening to her, if you're not appreciating her. And let's think about all these 50, 50 people where the women are doing all this work and the guy is not stepping up. Why is she. If he's not doing it there, you think he's showing up emotionally as well too. And then he's also expecting her to show up for him emotionally. Like, I'm not saying it for a tit for tat thing, but I'm saying that it's incredibly hard when as a man, you're supposed to be the Leader. Whether you're 50, 50 or not, you're supposed to be the man, Right? And you're supposed to be an example, and you're not doing it. And then you're expecting your woman to do it while you're not showing up in all these other ways.

John [00:19:49]: Right?

Nicole [00:19:50]: That's an incredibly hard task. And I was still trying to give that to you. And you still didn't feel like I listened to you, but at the same time, you weren't communicating with me truthfully about all the things that you were going through, or you would hold it all in and then get really reactive when it became too much for you to hold and then spew it everywhere, which I'm sure these men are doing. So I'm not saying that there aren't probably a few rare cases of a man actually showing up correctly and a woman still not caring about his feelings, but I think those are incredibly rare, for sure. And I think that either one or two of the things that we just talked about. Talked about here are what's actually happening. Because you're a very smart, intelligent man. Like you said, you got on this podcast and helped people and you did give good advice, but you still weren't following it yourself.

John [00:20:44]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:20:45]: And so if you are capable of falling into these things. I know other men are.

John [00:20:52]: Yeah, absolutely.

Nicole [00:20:53]: And by being like, oh, well, the woman just doesn't care about how I feel. That is a victim mindset. Like, figure out what's going on.

John [00:21:01]: Right. Why is that the case?

Nicole [00:21:03]: Truthfully, don't act like you're one of the rare people that are doing everything right. Because let's be real, you're probably not. Because it's probably like 2% of men, if that.

John [00:21:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:13]: That are doing it right. So you need to be really honest with yourself and be like, am I coming to her in a way that I'm acting like the victim and I'm feeling like I can't handle life right. When I'm supposed to be the leader, the protector. Like, I hate when men are like, I'm the protector. Like, I protect the house. If a robber. No, the protector. And like, providing safety is not protecting the house from robbers. Because how many robbers come to your house?

John [00:21:42]: Right?

Nicole [00:21:42]: None. It's about the emotional protecting and it's about. And you can be vulnerable, like you said, and come from a place of strength. Yeah, it's a.

John [00:21:52]: It.

Nicole [00:21:52]: Like, it doesn't have to be like, oh, I can't do anything right. Like, I'm just a fuck up. What is she supposed to say to that? You know, like, even if she's like, no, you're not, you're probably gonna be like, no, I am. You know what I mean? And then she doesn't have confidence that you can do what you need to do.

John [00:22:11]: And then it does disgust her, and then she is not attracted, it's not

Nicole [00:22:15]: attractive, because then she feels like she has to be the man. And so that's. It's not discussed. It's that now you've shifted the polarity of the relationship and now you are putting her in a masculine place to have to be like, you need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And then you're like, you don't care about my feelings. But it's like if you came from a vulnerable place like you said, and you were like, hey, like, you know, I just. I feel this way when I talk about my feelings, and it just feels wrong. I feel like you're not going to be attracted to me. She's gonna be like, no, I am attracted to you and I do care about your feelings. It's gonna be a completely different.

John [00:22:52]: Exactly. And I know because we had that conversation because I felt that way and I was like, okay, I have to. Like, these are things I have to shield. And it's like what I didn't separate in my head was I have to not give you my victim mindset thoughts. I need to just get rid of those ones. Like, I can deal with those ones on my own, right? Like, I don't need to share those ones. Those ones are gonna be like, john, stop being stopping a little baby. Like, stop it. You know what I mean? But the actual real feelings, like, oh, this is how I feel about this thing. I mean, we had a couple of discuss where I won't get into the details of them, but where I was like, I told you about something that I thought you were going to actually get upset about, but I just said, this is just how I feel. And then you're like, oh, you were very empathetic and comforting.

Nicole [00:23:43]: And you used to say, I'm not empathetic at all.

John [00:23:45]: And proud of me for sharing that. How I was feeling about the thing. Because I wasn't blaming you about it. I wasn't being a victim about it. I was just being brutally honest about what was going on internally with me, which again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine as a woman, in order to feel truly connected to your partner, you have to feel like you understand what's going on inside them.

Nicole [00:24:12]: Yes.

John [00:24:13]: And it's scary when you don't know what's going on inside them because maybe they are checking out other women. Maybe they're not happy in their relationship. Maybe they are like, thinking about leaving or maybe they are whatever. Like, you don't know. So it's just like, what is this guy gonna do? He's a wild card. Whereas when you feel like you understand what's going on inside of him, you can have the safety and security because you know where, even if he's not in a good place, even if he is questioning the relationship, at least you know it.

Nicole [00:24:40]: Right.

John [00:24:40]: And at least you can like, address it and you can do something about it. Because the worst thing is getting blindsided when you had no control. And that's the thing I was the most guilty of doing to you.

Nicole [00:24:50]: There's a way to say that the truth will set you free.

John [00:24:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:52]: In all the ways the truth will set you free. Even if the truth is not a truth you want to hear, even if it hurts. It gives you the option. It gives you the choice. And so, yeah, like, I think that you can't have a deeply connected relationship. Like, being a man does not mean, like, holding in all your feelings.

John [00:25:21]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:23]: It means that you have to be able to express them in a vulnerable way and so that you don't have all your emotions swept under the rug inside of you. And then you become reactive. Because like you said, a reactive man and a man that's victim mindset is a dangerous man. There is no safety there. No matter what else you're doing. No matter if you're a loving husband all these other times, no matter what. If you get into a mode where you're reactive and your victim mindset to a point where you're, like, debatably unpredictable, no woman will feel comfortable in that. Yeah, for sure. And you're ruining your relationship when you operate that way. No matter if. Most of the time, like you said, we didn't come on here and lie most of the time in our relationship. When things were good, they were really good. But when we had disagreements and you got reactive and things like that and the way you behaved, it was really good. And, you know, so it's not like that completely canceled out all the good parts. No, but it did damage the relationship a lot more. And so you think, like, oh, well, I'm only reactive sometimes, or, you know, sometimes I'm down in the dumps, but, like, I'm allowed to be upset.

John [00:26:41]: But imagine if you had a parent that only sometimes smacked you in the face for no reason at all.

Nicole [00:26:47]: True.

John [00:26:47]: But all the rest of time, they're like, you'd be a little bit, like.

Nicole [00:26:51]: Call that a problem today.

John [00:26:54]: You'd be a little bit, like, all the time. All the time. And that's what I did to you, right? Was Kept you on edge all the time. I didn't intend to. That was not my intention. I wanted to be the best husband as I possibly could. I wanted to do the things right. I was saying the things that I was learning on the camera and doing, but I didn't get that key part of it, which. Which, again, is like. Because I saw, like, being in touch with my emotions and sharing them as

Nicole [00:27:24]: weakness, which a lot of men have that misconception. And. Yeah, what men need to also accept. And again, I'm not saying all women do this perfectly, but there's a reason that men try to project onto women that, oh, they're so emotional when men are the most dangerous, emotional people on the planet.

John [00:27:51]: Well, that's why it all makes sense now why women like to watch serial killer documentaries and true crime to prepare for when, like, all the stories about men killing their families and doing.

Nicole [00:28:03]: Yeah. They want to see the signs. They want to try to stop it before they. Before it happens to them.

John [00:28:08]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:28:09]: That's a real reality because it puts

John [00:28:10]: you in such powerless situation because you don't have the insight into this man and what is he feeling and what is he thinking.

Nicole [00:28:17]: Yeah. I mean, even before, when you would get, like, really reactive and upset in some of our conversations.

John [00:28:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:24]: I would be afraid for you to be alone because I didn't know if you would cheat on me or do something out of spite. Because, like, like you said, like, you were. You were very reactive.

John [00:28:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:38]: And you were unpredictable. And then you would get upset that I would even say something like that. But the way that you behaved made it feel like, well, I don't know what you're gonna. What extent you're gonna go to because you're upset.

John [00:28:52]: And to put it into realistic terms for people to understand, like, there's a big difference between. Let's say you something. You say something to me. Like, let's say you say, I don't know, some. Something that's not nice. Right. Like you're a narcissist or something. Right. I can be like, I can't believe you said that. That hurts me so much. That is. I can't believe you said that. I cannot believe you said that. After all I've done for you, I cannot believe that you would say that. That is so hurtful. Do you realize how hurtful that is?

Nicole [00:29:21]: That was triggering.

John [00:29:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:23]: Not gonna lie.

John [00:29:23]: Or I can be like, wow, that really hurt me that you said that. Like, that hurts that I really feel hurt by that. I don't want to come across that way. It really breaks my heart that you feel that way about me now I'm sharing how I actually feel. Like both of them are sharing your emotions. One of them is going to make you.

Nicole [00:29:51]: One of them. Scary.

John [00:29:52]: One of them is scary. Right. And is going to be like, Put you on edge. That's reactive.

Nicole [00:29:59]: Yeah. The other one you feel like you can't.

John [00:30:00]: The other one is still sharing the emotions. Right. Where now you can have a conversation about that. Right. Like, you can talk about it like, like it's. It's safe that I'm expressing it in that way.

Nicole [00:30:15]: Yeah.

John [00:30:15]: You know what I mean?

Nicole [00:30:16]: Not gonna lie. That was.

John [00:30:17]: That's triggering.

Nicole [00:30:18]: It's very triggering.

John [00:30:19]: No, but that's.

Nicole [00:30:19]: You wouldn't get to that level.

John [00:30:21]: I exaggerated a little bit, but a

Nicole [00:30:24]: lot of those things.

John [00:30:24]: But it was similar. It was similar. That's, that's, that's how I know that. I know what my pattern. You know what I'm saying? Because I know. I can see exactly now from. I can see how I was being right. Not all the time, but when you would hurt me, that's how I would respond. Not I exaggerated a little bit, but sometimes it was close to that, sometimes it had been close to that. Right. And I don't think I'm alone in that.

Nicole [00:30:50]: No, you're not the only man to behave that way.

John [00:30:54]: But. But when you do that, you've eroded trust for maybe three months. It's like everything was good for them. But because of that reaction, how long are you going to be on edge when I. I mean, even me just faking it has put you on edge. Right.

Nicole [00:31:08]: Like my adrenaline is.

John [00:31:10]: Right. Yeah, but like, how long will that now create this effect of, I don't know if this is gonna. What's gonna happen? You know what I mean?

Nicole [00:31:19]: And how long can you live like that? That's also why women get fed up and men are like, well, why did she just leave me? Like, she did not just leave me.

John [00:31:27]: And she told you multiple times.

Nicole [00:31:28]: Women fight so much harder than men try to make people believe that they do.

John [00:31:34]: Yeah. And she told you so many times exactly what the problem was, exactly what was going on. I can't talk to you like you're. You. You respond to me in this way. You don't listen to me.

Nicole [00:31:43]: Right.

John [00:31:44]: You're not, you're not hearing what I'm saying. Like, you're not taking me into account.

Nicole [00:31:48]: Right?

John [00:31:48]: Right. Like you're blaming me for everything. Like it's always my fault. Like, these are all the. If you're hearing those things, public service announcement. Listen to them. They're not just her making up stuff or blaming you.

Nicole [00:32:02]: Right.

John [00:32:02]: It's. It is the truth of her experience. Because that's where I was going wrong as you were telling me all of those things. But I wasn't taking. I wasn't actually like, really taking that Into.

Nicole [00:32:15]: Well, because it was all about you.

John [00:32:17]: Right? It was. It was.

Nicole [00:32:19]: It was for a lot of reasons. But I do want to say, though, that I'm not gonna sit here and act like there aren't abusive women. There are. And I'm not saying that all women are. Correct. Like, if a woman is actually abusing you, that's a lot different. That, you know, you should leave if that's happening, if you're a man in that situation or whatever. But we're trying to talk about minute things that a lot of guys and a lot of good men, actually, good men end up turning themselves into bad men.

John [00:32:56]: Right. And this. And this is why good women. Good women leave.

Nicole [00:33:03]: Right, Right.

John [00:33:04]: We're not talking about abusive. What? You know, if you have a woman that's like. But this is why. If you're like, oh, my woman is good. Like, she's wonderful. She loves me. She's so dedic to me. But then she does this crazy behavior. No, no, no. Because again. And I'm seeing it from the patterns again, looking at my Instagram feed and seeing all the same freaking message that I like, wow, why didn't that show up in my Instagram feed a long time ago? But, like, I'm seeing the exact pattern, and then there's, you know, 5,000 likes on this thing. So, okay, this is the truth. This is why good women leave, because they're saying why they leave. And it's not because of the pool boy. It's not because she got bored. It's not because you lost your job. It's not because, whatever, like, she got some feminist friends. It's because you've made it. You've made her live on edge for such a long time, and she's tried to tell you for such a long time to restore, and you didn't listen. And now she's lost herself. She doesn't know who she is anymore. She doesn't have an identity because she has to just walk on eggshells all the time or is on edge all the. And now she doesn't. She loves you, but she can't live a life where she's not. She's lost her identity.

Nicole [00:34:17]: Yeah.

John [00:34:18]: And that, you know, and I was, unfortunately, as good as our relationship was, I was dangerously close to that.

Nicole [00:34:26]: No, you were. And I told you when you were talking to me about how all these guys were telling you, oh, you should have went to your deathbed and I told you we would have gotten divorced before then.

John [00:34:36]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:34:36]: And it's the sad truth, because it was already getting extreme. You were getting more and more reactive.

John [00:34:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:44]: And you were also getting to the point where you were, like, on the edge of, like, at least threatening divorce for smaller things that you blew up because you were so reactive.

John [00:34:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:59]: And I was gonna take one of those opportunities to leave the situation that I was dealing with, not just for that one instance, but for all that I was dealing with. When you were reactive for living and not having that safety for so long.

John [00:35:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:16]: The more reactive and explosive and the more you threatened to leave, I was going to take that from you. So it doesn't matter if you thought you could go to your deathbed with this lie before, we would have ended before that, because how it was making you live Exactly. Would have destroyed the relationship. And I do agree. I do think we have one of the best relationships. I mean, we come on here and we're airing out all this stuff, and, like, yeah, you know, if you don't trust in us and believe us after this, I can understand. But at the same point, I would love to see everybody just own up to all these things, because I know that everybody has.

John [00:35:57]: I know I'm not alone sort of

Nicole [00:35:59]: bullshit that they've gone through in their relationship that they just don't want people to know so that they can appear like they don't have any problems. But we're here doing it, and, you know, I lost my train of thought a little bit.

John [00:36:14]: But.

Nicole [00:36:14]: But what I'm saying is that, like, even though we do have a good relationship, you being that reactive, victim, mindset, selfish man that you were, because you were living out of your integrity would have ruined our relationship. It would have pushed me to a point where, like, you said, I love you. I love you more than anything. I don't want to be with anybody else. Even when you told me, like, that you lied and you cheated on me and things, and we were dangerously close to actually getting a divorce. I did not lie to you when I said that you are the only man that I want to be with if we ever got a divorce, I would not want to be with another man ever. Because in my mind, if you don't get this, if you don't understand this, no man will. And I firmly believe that because I know you're a good man. I know what you're capable of. I know where your heart is. And if you can't understand these things, if you can't live in your integrity, then I don't believe any man can. And that's the truth. And so, like, I could love you and have to leave you, it wouldn't be because I want to leave you. It'd be because you continuously don't show up as the man that you need to show up as. And I do think the key part of this is living in your integrity for everyone. Because you wouldn't have even cheated either of the times you have if you lived in your integrity.

John [00:37:38]: For sure. Yeah, 100%.

Nicole [00:37:40]: And that's the most important. And it's what not only helps you treat other people well, it's what, what helps you treat yourself well.

John [00:37:49]: And living in your integrity is being emotionally honest.

Nicole [00:37:52]: Yes.

John [00:37:52]: As well. Right?

Nicole [00:37:53]: Honesty.

John [00:37:54]: Because again, because like you said, I wouldn't have cheated either of those scenarios if I was emotional. Because if I was feeling like even being emotionally honest to be like, well, maybe I want to be free. Maybe I don't want to be tied to anyone. But some time to be not in a relationship. That's. That's a hard thing to say to someone in a relationship. Yeah, but it's emotionally honest if you feel that way, like, it doesn't mean that you're going that, but it's like, but let's have that discussion.

Nicole [00:38:26]: Right?

John [00:38:26]: And then maybe at the end of the discussion you decide to break up. But. Or maybe at the end of the discussion, like your partner talks to you and you actually resolve that and realize that you do want to be in that relationship. You know what I'm saying? But it gives me that.

Nicole [00:38:39]: Because maybe you wanted to run a race, weren't run away from the relationship because you had all this built up stuff that you never aired out.

John [00:38:46]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:38:46]: And then now that you air it out and you get actual understanding and clarity, that you realize that that was actually making you not want to be with this person rather than you actually not wanting to be with who that person is.

John [00:38:58]: The brave thing is to say I want to be with other people.

Nicole [00:39:01]: Right.

John [00:39:02]: Even though that seems like the stupid thing to say. It's the brave thing to say. Because if you don't, if you, if you really feel that and you don't say that, then it cannot be resolved. And then you're going to resolve it in your own way.

Nicole [00:39:16]: Right. And you're giving the person the choice.

John [00:39:19]: Right. And that's not in your integrity. Like it's just be honest about the relationship. Where are we at? What are, what am I thinking? What I am I feeling? Doesn't have to say every single thought that comes into your head.

Nicole [00:39:28]: Right.

John [00:39:28]: But you have to be in your integrity in like this is where I'm at right now.

Nicole [00:39:34]: Right. You know, and it gives you self confidence and self esteem. And like, you admitted that there have been points in your life where you have had low self confidence or low self esteem. That's why you got validation from women, for sure. And that's what made you feel good about yourself.

John [00:39:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:51]: And I think more men need to be honest about that. And I think more men need to realize that having integrity gives you way more self confidence and self esteem and permanent changes there than any thousands of women can.

John [00:40:10]: Right. And. And that. And that's why, like, I'm able to do the podcast from last week and say the things is because now that I'm living in my integrity, I don't have anything to hide.

Nicole [00:40:21]: Mm.

John [00:40:22]: You know what I'm saying? Like, when you have something to hide, then you can't talk about the stuff.

Nicole [00:40:27]: Well. Because your ego's so fragile. Because your ego knows what you've done. Your ego knows that you have shame and bad things.

John [00:40:34]: And that. And that's what makes you reactive, too. Because, like, I would be reactive to so many little things that you would say that would bruise my ego because I'm not living in my integrity. But if I'm living my integrity and I'm like, I know. I know who the fuck I am, because I show up every day, I'm doing exactly what I say is what I do. My. I'm speaking the truth, then little things that you say, they're gonna bounce off of me.

Nicole [00:40:58]: Because you know who you are.

John [00:41:00]: Exactly. But when you don't. When you don't know who you are and you're not sure about yourself and then someone else attacks you, you perceive it as an attack. Then you got to defend all those things. Then all those things.

Nicole [00:41:11]: You know why you feel that way? Because you do feel like you're a good person. And you know you're a good person. And you know you've done good things.

John [00:41:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:18]: But you also know that you. You're holding on to a lie. You also know you're doing bad things.

John [00:41:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:23]: That's why you don't know who you are.

John [00:41:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:26]: Because it's like the angel and the devil on your shoulder. And, like, yes, we all have, like, bad parts of ourselves, but this is different. When you're actively still lying and you know you've done something very, very bad that would really hurt someone.

John [00:41:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:41]: And you're holding all that actively.

John [00:41:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:45]: While you're also actively showing up for people and being a good husband and loving People. You don't know who you are. You don't know, am I this bad thing that I did? Because I know I did it, and I know I'm capable of doing it. So there is this part of me that does feel like it's this.

John [00:42:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:42:00]: But I'm also this. Because I do love people, and I do want to do these things. That's why you don't know who you are.

John [00:42:07]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:42:08]: Whereas if you have integrity, you never would have even done the thing that you would have to lie about. And that's the thing is, like, you have to stop it from the very beginning. You have to not even do things that you want to cover up.

John [00:42:25]: Right, right. Exactly.

Nicole [00:42:26]: And if you do do something that's not great because everybody's gonna make a mistake. I'm not saying that people aren't gonna make mistakes. You have to own up to that right away. Be like, oh, I'm so sorry that, you know, I hurt you by doing that. Like, own up to the thing. Or be like, I forgot your dry cleaning. I was gonna pick up. I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to do that. You know, instead of being like, well, it's your fault, because why'd you take your dry cleaning there? You know what I mean? Like, there's just no excuse.

John [00:42:54]: It's the transparency. Because if you're living a life of integrity, of transparency, then you're. You. You're not going to do the behaviors that you would have to be transparent. It's like, right when I've talked to guys about overcoming porn addiction. There's a real simple solution to overcoming porn addiction. You know what it is?

Nicole [00:43:08]: Take the door off.

John [00:43:09]: Take the door. Because if you don't have a door to shut, you get. You know, you don't have the. Like, you know, you're living in the bathroom, though. Oh, yeah. I mean, if you have glass walls, like the bathroom. Yeah. If you. If you create environments where you. Where what you're doing is transparent, then you can't do the wrong thing. Right, Right. That's why group.

Nicole [00:43:29]: Yes.

John [00:43:29]: Classes.

Nicole [00:43:29]: I know, but you said all this.

John [00:43:31]: I know. Before. Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:33]: And then we're still living a different way.

John [00:43:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:36]: Like, I know that you're not doing that now, but.

John [00:43:39]: But if you're choosing. Choosing transparency, if you're choosing integrity, then,

Nicole [00:43:45]: well, that's why it has to be like, the integrity. Because, you know, you say, like, live your life in public or whatever. I'm saying do this for you.

John [00:43:53]: Right, Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:55]: Like, you told Me a story. When we started talking about a lot of this after it happened, and you talked about the story about your dad.

John [00:44:05]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:44:06]: Saying he wouldn't take a bribe.

John [00:44:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:09]: And you didn't believe him. And I was like, you don't understand integrity. Like, you didn't understand integrity then.

John [00:44:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:17]: That was your dad living in his integrity.

John [00:44:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:20]: That's like when we would go to the amusement parks. I mean, now, no roller coasters. After all the craziness. That's so sad and tragic. But when you'd be like, well, would you do it for a million dollars? And I'd be like, no. And like, you probably didn't believe me. But the thing is, like, you can't buy.

John [00:44:39]: Right. You don't want to be bought.

Nicole [00:44:40]: My choices.

John [00:44:41]: Right, Exactly. That's the integrity choice is to not allow money to influence the choices.

Nicole [00:44:47]: Right.

John [00:44:48]: These kind of choices that you've made.

Nicole [00:44:50]: Right. Or anything. Like, I'm not gonna be. Again with the cheating that doesn't involve money. But I'm like, I'm not going to do that to someone else. I've had it done to me now multiple times. I would never do that to someone else. Even if I hated somebody, I wouldn't do that to someone else.

John [00:45:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:09]: Because I don't want it done to me. So I'm not gonna do it.

John [00:45:11]: You know? And I think it's worth saying what the definition of integrity is, which is living like the person that you pretend to be.

Nicole [00:45:19]: Like you pretend to be.

John [00:45:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:21]: I view it as treat others the way you want to be treated. And that has never failed me. I. I continuously treat people the way I want to be treated, and even if they don't show up for me in the same way, it can hurt, but it doesn't matter because it's who I am and I'm still gonna do it anyway.

John [00:45:39]: Yeah. Yeah. I would say, like, if you describe yourself in a certain way, then that's how you are. Right. Like, you actually are that, you know.

Nicole [00:45:47]: Yeah. I mean, that can be your definition. I feel like what works for me is treat others the way you want to be treated.

John [00:45:52]: Fair.

Nicole [00:45:53]: So. But hopefully we've explained a lot. I mean.

John [00:46:00]: Yeah, no, I think it's.

Nicole [00:46:02]: I think, again, I'm not gonna lie to you. I've been obviously hurt and angry, and I've not only been hurt and angry at John, but at men in general.

John [00:46:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:16]: And I am trying to harness that in a productive way. I don't feel like I've attacked men on this episode or in general, even though there's been some comments on some of our reels that I'm like, don't do it, Nicole, don't do it.

John [00:46:37]: But I think it is important to identify that this is a problem that men have. Women have their own problems. It's fine.

Nicole [00:46:44]: But they have to own up to it.

John [00:46:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:47]: And I don't think men own up to a lot of things.

John [00:46:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:50]: Because of their ego a lot of the time.

John [00:46:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:53]: They think it defines them when in reality.

John [00:46:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:57]: If they lived in their integrity and that defined them, they'd feel like the best man in the world.

John [00:47:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:05]: And that's what doesn't make sense to me is so men live out of their integrity.

John [00:47:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:10]: And they try to compensate by protecting their ego in so many messed up ways. Whereas if they just lived in their integrity and I guess like you said, like, actually lived like the person that they are portraying themselves to be or want to be.

John [00:47:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:28]: Then they would actually get that. But instead they go the, like, completely wrong direction.

John [00:47:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:35]: Until they reach rock bottom. And then maybe they build themselves up to be the man they've actually.

John [00:47:41]: And there's some freedom in realizing that you're a piece of shit because then you got nothing to hold up, to, hide to, like to.

Nicole [00:47:47]: Yeah, but sometimes people that feel that way just continue to be a piece of shit.

John [00:47:51]: Yeah, but what I'm saying is that, like, we're all pieces of shit, right? Like, you know, like, we're all like,

Nicole [00:47:56]: yeah, but you can be a better piece of shit.

John [00:47:58]: Yeah. Yeah. But when you can, the ego is what's saying. You're not a piece of shit. Right. But in order to get rid of the ego, you gotta be like, no, I am a piece of shit. Like, okay, I am a fuck up, just like all of us. But that's fine because then there's nothing to protect because then the transparency, then the integrity can exist. But it can't exist as long as you're holding on to this, like, view of yourself that's higher than what it is.

Nicole [00:48:26]: Which I agree. But like, we have to be real here. Some people fuck up more than others, and that doesn't excuse the things that they do and it doesn't excuse the harm that they cause.

John [00:48:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:42]: And it's not fair to the people who aren't fucking up to act like they're on the same level as the people who are fucking up all the time.

John [00:48:52]: We're all on the same level. We're all on the same level. Like, we're all on the same level in the sense that like, none of us is perfect. None of us is.

Nicole [00:49:01]: I have never said none of us are perfect. But there is a difference between someone who's actively trying to be the best version of themselves and are showing up because they do have integrity and they do say what they're gonna do versus people who don't have integrity. And they act all sorts of crazy ways. They're not the same. Yes, we are all imperfect. We will never be perfect. And I'm not saying that that one is better than the other.

John [00:49:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:26]: But one is doing better than the

John [00:49:28]: other, that's for sure.

Nicole [00:49:29]: And that there is a difference. Because to sit here and act like there is no difference gives these people no motivation to be over here. And that's part of the problem today. I do believe that. Yeah, I do believe that everybody has gotten so messed up that they're like, well, everybody's doing crazy now.

John [00:49:49]: Oh, I see what you're just saying.

Nicole [00:49:50]: So why do I need to be better? You be better for yourself.

John [00:49:53]: For yourself. Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:55]: Because it is better to do better

John [00:49:57]: because it's your standard. There's no reward for it. But there's no.

Nicole [00:50:00]: There is a reward. You feel better about yourself. You have confidence.

John [00:50:04]: There's no external reward for yourself.

Nicole [00:50:05]: You have love for yourself.

John [00:50:06]: Yeah, there's no external reward for it.

Nicole [00:50:10]: So many people hate themselves that loving yourself is a reward.

John [00:50:15]: That is the best reward.

Nicole [00:50:17]: Right. And you should know.

John [00:50:18]: Yeah, I do know. Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:21]: So that's what I'm saying. Like I'm not gonna sit here and act like people that are showing up and doing what they say they're gonna do and living in their integrity are the exact same playing field as these people over here that are playing in everybody's face. Cuz they're not.

John [00:50:34]: No, no.

Nicole [00:50:36]: But these people should want to be over here for themselves.

John [00:50:40]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:50:41]: And that's how the world actually becomes a better world.

John [00:50:44]: Only way you're gonna be over there.

Nicole [00:50:46]: That's true.

John [00:50:47]: Because that's the only motivation that is going to make sense. Because it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't benefit you externally.

Nicole [00:50:56]: Why does, why does that matter? Because that's what do men only care about external validation or like people care

John [00:51:02]: about not just validation, just like reward. Right. You know, why would you do something like, okay, but if you want to,

Nicole [00:51:09]: like, do men not view loving yourself as a reward?

John [00:51:12]: Yeah, but look at this. Will you make more money being dishonest?

Nicole [00:51:18]: Yeah, but it will cost you your soul.

John [00:51:20]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:51:21]: Which men Will give away. They're more likely to give that away.

John [00:51:25]: It's not worth the price. But, like, when you look at it from what is the rewards that you can get externally, being dishonest, being out of your integrity you can mop up, but when you look at, like, how will you sleep at night and how do you feel about yourself? That's the trade off. And that's the better thing to have is to be able to sleep good at night, to be able to feel proud of yourself, to be able to live the life that you want to live rather than to get the things of the world.

Nicole [00:51:57]: Yeah. Here's the thing that I'll. This is my last thing I'm gonna say is that you can't take any of that external.

John [00:52:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:06]: You can't take it with you.

John [00:52:07]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:08]: Only thing we're taking with us is the lessons we've learned here and how we've shown up.

John [00:52:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:13]: And that's why integrity matters.

John [00:52:15]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:52:16]: And so do you want to leave here with nothing or with something.

John [00:52:21]: Yeah. Or negative. Negative.

Nicole [00:52:24]: Or going backwards.

John [00:52:25]: Yeah. Regrets.

Nicole [00:52:27]: If you're only viewing the world as external things, you're in for a rude awakening when you get thrown in that grave because you can't take any of it with you. But what you can take with you is how you show up in the person that you are. And you're right. We will never be perfect.

John [00:52:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:44]: But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to be the best that you can be.

John [00:52:49]: 100%. I agree.

Nicole [00:52:51]: So.

John [00:52:53]: All right. Should we wrap it?

Nicole [00:52:55]: Yep.

John [00:52:55]: All right. What do we have going on this? Just kidding. A lot. A lot. All right. We have a.

Nicole [00:53:08]: We have a few questions.

John [00:53:10]: Yeah, we have a few. I guess we'll do that the next episode, right?

Nicole [00:53:12]: Yeah, we'll do that. I'm sorry, we got some questions.

John [00:53:16]: No, this is a good episode. We'll have to title it why Men Suck or something.

Nicole [00:53:22]: Yeah, I like that. I like that title, Men Are Trash the Musical.

John [00:53:30]: But you can subscribe to us at. Go to the website betterthanperfectpod.com you can go to our Instagram and submit a question there as well. That's been.

Nicole [00:53:40]: Yeah. Or email us at Better Than Perfect Podcast. Gmail.

John [00:53:45]: Yep, that's it. All right, we'll see you next week.

Nicole [00:53:48]: Bye.