Nicole [00:00:00]: You need to honor the emotionally safe bubble that you have in your relationship, and you should have that. And even if you do get defensive and your partner's like, hey, I can't really talk to you right now. All you're doing is being defensive. Saying something like that and actually trying to work through the actual problem is the only way you're gonna work on whatever issue you guys have. But by being like, oh, I watched the Better than Perfect podcast, and you got defensive. So now I'm not emotionally safe. That's just attacking each other. It's not like collaborating to fix problem. Emotional safety is not a line you draw in the sand. It's a bubble you put around you and your partner.

John [00:00:39]: I agree. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:04]: That's right.

John [00:01:05]: And today we're going to be talking

Nicole [00:01:07]: about the emotional safety. What's the word?

John [00:01:12]: Emotional damage.

Nicole [00:01:13]: Yes. Not emotional damage. Emotional safety.

John [00:01:16]: Emotional safety trap.

Nicole [00:01:18]: That's right.

John [00:01:19]: So you tell me, what is the emotional safety trap?

Nicole [00:01:22]: Well, I thought this would be a good topic.

John [00:01:25]: Okay.

Nicole [00:01:27]: Because as a woman, you do need emotional safety, like with your man, from your man, and he should feel the same from you. But I think people, especially women, might think that that means that they're never called out on things.

John [00:01:46]: Okay. Yeah, I see.

Nicole [00:01:47]: And that they're allowed to behave however they want.

John [00:01:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:52]: And hide behind the thing of I don't feel emotionally safe because even, like, in a friend group, we had a falling out, and one of the girls told the other one that she didn't feel emotionally safe with her.

John [00:02:10]: Mm. Okay. Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:12]: So it can be weaponized.

John [00:02:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:17]: And I do think that women are more so the ones to weaponize it.

John [00:02:22]: Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard a guy claim that he wasn't emotionally safe.

Nicole [00:02:25]: They haven't, but they have probably felt that.

John [00:02:28]: Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:29]: Even though they don't talk about it.

John [00:02:31]: That's true.

Nicole [00:02:31]: And so that's.

John [00:02:32]: Well, I mean, I was thinking in a group of guys, but. Yeah. In a relationship, yes.

Nicole [00:02:35]: But in a group, no. Yeah. They don't just bring it up.

John [00:02:37]: But, like, you're. Dude, you're making me feel very emotionally unsafe right now.

Nicole [00:02:42]: Right. They. Well, yeah, I don't think they say that, but yeah. So I thought it would be a good topic. We've had a similar topic, I think, before, but really, as a woman, and I think with society we've talked about the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives show as kind of an example. I do believe that women expect to behave however they want to behave with no repercussions. And that's not realistic.

John [00:03:19]: Right, right.

Nicole [00:03:20]: Like, not all women.

John [00:03:22]: No, no.

Nicole [00:03:22]: But again, I think we've gone a little bit too far with, like. With, like, making our feelings like all that matters and that everyone has to cater to what we think and not be responsible for those things, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? Because, like, the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives thing, they'll go and do things that they would not be happy if their husbands did, but it's supposed to be acceptable for them. And look, as a woman, do I think that I could go out to a bar and get in less trouble than you?

John [00:04:12]: I don't get into any trouble.

Nicole [00:04:14]: You don't get in any trouble. But I'm saying, I think I do believe that a woman could go out to a bar and get in less trouble than a man. I think we would both not get into trouble. But I think if I had to bet on one or the other, I'm betting on the woman not getting into trouble.

John [00:04:30]: I'm betting on trouble finding the woman. I'm betting on the guy trying to find trouble.

Nicole [00:04:35]: But that's not the thing. That's not the thing.

John [00:04:37]: Because, like, look, whether trouble finds you or you find trouble, there's still trouble. It's still in the equation. But I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying.

Nicole [00:04:47]: So what I say stands. And so I'm not saying that I believe that all women have these ulterior motives, right?

John [00:04:57]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:57]: But I think that as women, we need to own up to the fact that we have kind of been holding people hostage with our emotions at times that we would not accept if the tables were turned.

John [00:05:15]: Yeah, I agree. I think that the place to start is really to talk about what is actual emotional safety. Because it's being used as. It's being abused. Right. It's being used as a manipulation tactic to hold people hostage. Right. It's the same thing as, like. As trigger warning. Right. Like, that's an example of don't do

Nicole [00:05:38]: something because it triggers me.

John [00:05:39]: Right, Exactly. Like, oh, like, I can't, or I need a safe space. Like, all of this stuff, like being a little snowflake is emotional safety abuse. It's not like real emotional safety means that you should be able to express your emotions in a healthy way.

Nicole [00:05:57]: Right.

John [00:05:58]: And. Not be punished for doing so. Not have consequences for doing so. It means you should be able to say, this upsets me. This makes me scared. This is something I don't like. This hurts my feelings. And then not feel like it's being ignored, run over, explained away. That's right. Would you agree that's the definition of emotional safety?

Nicole [00:06:31]: That emotional safety does not mean that you will not be uncomfortable.

John [00:06:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:35]: I think that you can still be emotionally safe and uncomfortable. I think people throw out that they're not emotionally safe when they feel uncomfortable. And I think that that is not what it is. It is uncomfortable to be confronted with your behavior even if you're hurt, even if you're upset.

John [00:06:56]: Okay. Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:57]: Your behavior can be wrong. And when someone calls that out, it can make you uncomfortable. And that's typically where a lot of people will try to double down and be like, I'm not emotionally safe.

John [00:07:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:15]: You know what I mean?

John [00:07:16]: So from the other angle, because I was talking about, like, you should be emotionally safe to say things, to express your emotions, you're talking about from the angle of emotional safety. It's like, well, you know, I'm saying this is what emotional safety is. You're talking about what emotional safety is not. Emotional safety is not. You can't say anything to me that's gonna hurt my feelings.

Nicole [00:07:35]: I think emotional safety is being present to have a conversation, whether that's difficult or not. Like, Right. Whether it is, like, whether even if, like, you're yelling at me or I'm yelling at you, trying to de. Escalate it and then confront that behavior.

John [00:07:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:59]: And then being able to sit in that uncomfortable, like, confrontation of what you've done or whatever. You know, I think it encompasses the whole thing, being able to have the full conversation, not run away from your problems by being like, I don't feel emotionally safe. Cause the thing is that all these words have just become ways that we escape the responsibility of our actions and of our words.

John [00:08:21]: Right? Right.

Nicole [00:08:23]: And emotional safety is being with somebody despite all these things. And when you are confronted with a hard thing about yourself, like even a few episodes back when I got defensive with you and things like that. Like, you had hard conversation with me about some things. Like, it's hard to hear someone say things about you that you aren't proud of or, like, your shortcomings or whatever it is. But if I can't hear them from you, I can't hear them from anyone else. And granted, I want you to be able to tell me them in a certain way. And if you come at me in not the right way either, while you're trying to convey this, then I need to have a conversation with you as well. But it's being able to have all of these conversations within one hard conversation. Because the thing is, a hard conversation or an argument, a disagreement is not usually just one thing. Like something's gonna go wrong, someone's gonna do something wrong, or maybe you've worked really hard, like we've worked really hard, and you might have of disagreement that goes really well, and there is not multiple things happening.

John [00:09:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:37]: But we're human. And there might be a conversation where you feel like you start off really well, you're empathizing, you're listening, but then you get defensive, and then you spiral, and then you cause more problems. And you have to be able to sit in all that. You have to be able to hear all that, you have to be able to work through all of that. And someone that is present with you throughout all that yet holds you to the standard that you want to be held at, which, whether you want to be held at it or not, because to be honest, in that moment, we probably don't want to be held to it, but your partner still holds you to it, to the best version of yourself and what you want and should be. That is emotional safety. It's the bubble of all of that.

John [00:10:22]: I see.

Nicole [00:10:23]: In my opinion.

John [00:10:23]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Yeah. I think that if that makes sense. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think that makes sense. I think it's like emotional safety is that, like, if you're emotionally. Let's say if you're emotionally safe, if you have emotional safety, it means that you're not going to. Again, I kind of go back to, like, you're not going to get consequences for expressing your emotions in a proper way. In a proper way, in the correct way. Right. But all those other things are not emotional safety in the sense that when you're claiming that someone's making you feel emotionally unsafe, then your claim should be, I express my emotions in a proper way, and then they gave me consequences for that. They punished me for that. That is when you're not emotionally safe, all the other times you're emotionally safe, if that's not happening, you're emotionally safe. You see what I'm saying? So all the other stuff is not. Does that make sense?

Nicole [00:11:31]: Yeah.

John [00:11:33]: Because where people claim that they're not emotionally safe is, like you said, is when you're called out on something and it is more. So we're talking about women and taking accountability. You're called out on something, and then your claim, oh, this is making me uncomfortable, or to feel emotionally unsafe.

Nicole [00:11:53]: Right.

John [00:11:54]: And that's. No, that's not. That's just being a coward. That's just not facing up to. That's just avoiding responsibility and accountability. Right. Like, if someone is telling you you did something wrong and they're screaming in your face, okay, that could make you feel emotionally unsafe. That could make sense. But if they're telling you, hey, I didn't like what you did, or I don't approve of this, or you hurt my feelings or whatever it is, or you upset me, or even I'm angry with you about this, that is not emotionally. They're not making you feel emotionally unsafe. Like, they're making you confront hard emotions, which is the difference. And because otherwise, it's just a scapegoat to get out of it. To get out of facing. Regardless of men or women do it. If someone is trying to confront you about something and then you're avoiding it and you're using the scapegoat of, oh, that's not creating a safe space for me. That's making me feel emotionally unsafe. You're just avoiding. Is what you're doing instead of.

Nicole [00:12:58]: I mean, I would say, I hear what you're saying about the. If you do it right, and you don't get consequences or punishment.

John [00:13:05]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:05]: But to me, what emotional safety really is is someone that's in it with you genuinely trying to resolve the problem. Because I think that there's gonna be mistakes, there's gonna be some messiness sometimes.

John [00:13:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:24]: And I think that if you just define it as you do everything perfectly and you get a consequence or something that, like, I think then there would be a lot of emotional unsafety. Whereas, like, I wouldn't classify that. Well, I'm saying, like, as emotional unsafety. I think that emotional safety is someone that is in the conversation with you wants to resolve it. You guys might make mistakes, but you're really trying to work it out and you're in it with each other. And again, trying to address the situation in the best way possible. You're both trying really hard to do the right thing and you make repair.

John [00:14:15]: Look, maybe even this is a better lane is there is no such thing as emotional safety because emotions are not safe.

Nicole [00:14:26]: Well, that's where I'm kind of going.

John [00:14:29]: Emotions aren't safe. It's not supposed to be safe.

Nicole [00:14:31]: Right. Cause you can't.

John [00:14:33]: You should have A safe space to express your emotions.

Nicole [00:14:35]: That's what I think emotional safety is. It's the bubble of, like, okay, we're in this. I have emotions. You're having emotions. Let's get through this. So that's where I'm kind of trying to go. I'm glad that you picked up on that, because like you said, emotions are. It's a very messy, human thing, and sometimes they don't even make sense. And you do very well most of the time. But sometimes I might say something that makes no sense to you, and you might be like, that doesn't make sense, and that's gonna trigger me. And then is the emotional safety gone? Because now I'm triggered. No. If I feel like you're working through it with me, even if we're having a hard time, even if we have to talk for eight hours, like those times that we've done that, I've never felt emotionally unsafe because I know that we're committed to working through it no matter what. So that's what I'm trying to say. The emotional safety is.

John [00:15:30]: Yeah. I think many times that there's relationships. In relationships, women are free to express their emotions, and women are more emotional, but there's not room for a man's emotions. If he's upset, then that's not okay.

Nicole [00:15:46]: Right?

John [00:15:46]: Right. She could be upset, but if he's upset, then she's upset that he's upset. And now her emotions trump everything. Right. That's what happens a lot of times in relationships. And I think that's the thing where it's like, she's kind of hiding behind the emotional safety. She's like, okay, there's space for my emotions. You have to deal with my emotions and give me emotional safety. But I'm not gonna give that to you. If you have emotions, then I'm gonna be even more upset. And now I'm gonna flood you with my emotions. Instead of, like, holding space for your emotions. There's no space for your emotions. There's space for my emotions. I think that's where the big issue comes in, and that's where a lot of guys are even just afraid to confront a woman about a thing. Like you said, like the Mormon wives example. It's like those guys are scared as hell to confront any of those women, especially because they're all in a pack and they're all gonna gang up on him.

Nicole [00:16:35]: True.

John [00:16:35]: But even aside from that, if he tries to tell his wife, she's gonna get upset, and then he's gonna have to Deal with the consequences. He can't even say, I'm not comfortable with you doing this, because that would be violating the emotional safety. And then she would be upset. They have emotional safety. And that's a nice way to say it. I'm not comfortable with what you did. Anytime you say that to someone, that should never, ever be a problem. That's a good way of expressing an emotion or a feeling about a thing that is not insulting the person, that is not judging the person, that is not negative. It's just you expressing your emotion about the thing, and that should be totally fine. They don't have to agree with you, but they have to understand that you have said that you don't feel good about this thing. And you should have space, man or woman, to be able to say that. And so if you talk to your partner and your partner says, I don't like this thing that you're doing or this upsets me or whatever, and then you get upset about that and you can't handle that, then you're not providing emotional safety for that person.

Nicole [00:17:45]: Yeah, I think you should ask more questions rather than just get defensive. But that's the thing is like. But then is defensiveness just. You're instantly unsafe.

John [00:17:57]: I would say that if you try to, in a healthy way, express your emotions to your partner and they respond defensively, then they are creating an unsafe space for your emotions because you don't feel like you have the space to express them. You feel like if I do it, then they're just gonna give me consequences. Right. If I try to tell them how I feel, then there's just gonna be consequences for me doing it. So I'm not even gonna tell them how I feel anymore because it's just a negative experience for me every time. It doesn't mean that they have to agree. It doesn't mean there can't be a discussion, but it just means that if they respond in a defensive way, if I say to you, look, when you did this, I didn't like this. It hurt my feelings. And you're like, well, that was because of you did this before, or whatever, you deflect or you do something like that. Then I'm like, okay, I can't even tell you how I feel. I don't feel emotionally safe. Then it's a valid, I don't feel emotionally safe because there's no space for it.

Nicole [00:18:56]: Which I hear you, and it's not like I don't agree with you, but I think that that is more likely to not get the conversation to go anywhere. I think that. I get that it's frustrating when someone's defensive, especially when they're continuously defensive. I know I've done it. I know you've done it. But I think that if, like, you just shut down and you're like, I don't feel emotionally safe. Nothing gets actually fixed.

John [00:19:27]: No, don't hide behind it.

Nicole [00:19:28]: So that's why I think that it's not even beneficial to be like, I feel emotionally unsafe. That's why, in my opinion, let's not use that word, the bubble of having the whole conversation, which is emotional safety. Because the thing is, if I get defensive, like I did the other day, and you're like, you were being defensive and you told me you do this a lot. That. And I did get defensive quite a few times. Cause, like, I'm, you know, not handling it well. But you kept going, like, if you were like, I don't feel emotionally safe, how would that conversation have ended? Like, I did eventually listen to what you were saying and agreed to what you were saying, and I don't wanna be that way.

John [00:20:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:13]: And most people who are defensive don't want to be combative and do that. Like, you used to be defensive quite a bit as well, and I know you didn't want to be that way either. And so that's why I think that,

John [00:20:27]: like, you shouldn't just give up.

Nicole [00:20:29]: If there's a line, then people are going to use the line of being like, I don't feel emotionally safe. I'm not doing this. You know what I mean? Whereas, like, what I'm trying to say is that if someone is in it with you, especially if you're married, you need to honor the emotionally safe bubble that you have in your relationship, and you should have that. And even if you do get defensive and your partner's like, hey, I can't really talk to you right now. All you're doing is being defensive. Or, like, you know, can you just not respond and listen to what I have to say? And then you can respond once I'm done saying something like that, like, and actually trying to work through the actual problem is the only way that you're gonna work on the defensiveness, that you're gonna work on the deflecting, you're gonna work on whatever issue you guys have. But by being like, oh, I watched the better than perfect podcast, and you got defensive, so now I'm not emotionally safe. That's just attacking each other. It's not collaborating to fix the problem.

John [00:21:34]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:21:34]: And that's why I'm saying that emotional safety is not a line you draw in the sand. It's a bubble you put around you and your partner.

John [00:21:42]: I agree.

Nicole [00:21:43]: Yeah, because how can anyone feel emotionally safe if you're scared your partner's gonna throw that they don't feel emotionally safe at you?

John [00:21:53]: I agree. And that's not where I was trying to get. But I'm glad you clarified that, because I'm not saying that you shut down the conversation. I'm just saying that in reality, it is not emotionally safe if a person responds to you defensively whenever you express your emotions. But it doesn't mean that you give up. It doesn't mean that you now be like, oh, that's not emotionally safe. So now I'm checking out. It still is not emotionally safe for a person when they can't express their emotions without the consequences of it. But that doesn't mean. But you don't have to be emotionally safe all the time. You know what I'm saying? You need some level of emotional safety in a relationship. If you have no emotional safety, then that's going to be a hard relationship to be in. If every time that you express any kind of emotion it's reacted to in a negative way or defended or explained away, then you don't really have emotional safety at all in the relationship. Now, if you're in a discussion and you express something and your partner reacts in a defensive way, it doesn't mean that you now get to claim, I'm not being emotionally. I'm not emotionally safe and shut down. But it does mean that there is something to work on there that needs to be addressed. Because the relationship will suffer if one person cannot actually share what their experience and their emotions.

Nicole [00:23:18]: Yeah, I agree. And in the beginning of our relationship, I feel like you were very defensive, and I know I've been very defensive. And so I understand that. But I never classified it. I guess I still have a problem with classifying it the way that you're saying, because I feel like if I had classified it that way, I think that I would just live in that. And I think that that's part of the problem today. I think it's part of the problem that even if you're not saying it in the conversation that, like, if I back then, when you would be very defensive, if I was just like, well, I'm not emotionally safe and I, like, kind of checked out because I wasn't emotionally safe or, like, didn't invest as much and didn't, like, try to persevere with you, then, Like, I think it would have really harmed our relationship.

John [00:24:14]: I think.

Nicole [00:24:15]: And I'm not saying that, like, what you're saying is wrong, but I think if people focus on that, then they're not actually going to persevere.

John [00:24:24]: I think the reason why it's important is to recognize it not for yourself, but, like, for yourself when you're doing it. Right. Because, like, I can recognize that in. In our relationship, when I was more defensive, like, one of the things I had to realize was that I was not. I was not creating emotional safety for you to have emotions. Right. In fact, you frequently would tell me, hey, like, I don't feel safe to talk to you about things. Like, I don't feel emotional. Like, I wasn't validating your emotions. Right? Like, so you did talk to me less about things that were bothering you because you didn't want to bring up the thing that's upsetting you and then me get all upset about it and defend it. Instead, what you wanted was to be able to bring up the thing that was upsetting you and for me to listen to you, whether I agreed or not to listen to you, to be heard, to be understood, and then that issue to be addressed instead of just defended away. Right. And so, I mean, I think there's no way around it. If a person is defensive and does not create emotional safety for the partner, that that person will eventually shut down. That person will not just keep on trying to be heard, and it will hurt the relationship again. Does it mean that you should give up on the relationship or not? No. Like, you have to work things out. But I think as the person being defensive, as me being the person that was defensive early on in our relationship, if I didn't realize that I was causing you to shut down emotionally, then I might not have changed. But as I realized that and I was like, no, I do want whether I like what Nicole's gonna say. I'd rather her share it with me. And I want her to feel like she's safe to share whatever it is. Whatever. Even if it's something that is totally out here or something that I would consider to be ridiculous, I would still want her to share it with me. Because maybe there's something that, like, for whatever reason, there's something in her past that's triggering her or whatever, that's some past trauma, and she's going through that. She's my partner who I love. I want to know about that and be able to talk to her about it. And the way That I was acting in the defensive way. The way that I was making it not safe for you to have those emotions was causing a rift in our relationship, and I had to realize that in order to change it. And since now that that is deeply ingrained in me almost every single time, I would say 95% of the time or more, when you bring up something to me, something that upsets you or your emotions, I completely address it. And I don't act defensive and I don't shut you down and I don't do anything. And so that's why I think it's important.

Nicole [00:27:02]: Yeah, and you're right. I did used to say I didn't feel safe saying. Saying that to you, but I don't. I never wanted to give up for sure. The only reason I felt like it got to that point is because. And I'm sure you felt similar is because it would go on for so long and then by the end, we would resolve it, but then it would start all over again. Or, you know, I would say something and then it would cause you to be upset or defensive. But I never. I don't ever want to draw a line in the sand. I just wanted to be able to talk to you. And I know you probably feel the exact same with me when I get defensive. And, you know, I do need to work on it like you have, and I do plan to do that because it is hard. But I just am worried with, like, people focusing on, oh, I'm not emotionally safe, especially with this day and age, people will be like, oh, that means I need to give up. I'm not safe here.

John [00:28:09]: You shouldn't give up.

Nicole [00:28:11]: This can't be fixed.

John [00:28:12]: You should have another conversation saying that, hey, this is very important to me. When I try to talk to you and I try to share my emotions with you, and you respond by being defensive by deflecting, by shutting me down, by making me feel bad for having the emotions, it makes it hard for me to talk to. And this is very important that I want to address this. Now, unfortunately, that can be responded with a very defensive answer. So it's really up to the person who's like, you should have to keep on having the conversation because it's important, because it has to be fixed in the relationship. It's a must fix. It's not like a maybe is a must fix. So I agree with you. You shouldn't give up. But it really is up to the person to put down the walls for a second to actually hear that. But I think the More you can convey how important it is to you in a calm way and show what it's doing to you, then the more likely you are to get through to the person. But it is hard to get through to a person when they're defensive. And then anything you say about still is gonna be responded with a defensiveness.

Nicole [00:29:26]: Yeah. I mean, I think you also do have to be careful of how you say things, because people act like they're being vulnerable and they're just attacking the other person, and that's not being vulnerable. Or like you say, you phrase something in a way that's kind of passive aggressive, rather than being like, I'm really sad and I'm really hurt. Like, this hurt me. It made me feel like you don't love me or whatever. Actually be vulnerable rather than being like, you always just never even think about me. Like, that's projecting and that is gonna cause someone to be defensive.

John [00:30:08]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:30:08]: Like, you really shouldn't use words like always, never, any of those things because they're 99% of the time not even legitimate. And they will cause somebody to defend

John [00:30:21]: themselves because there's always an exception.

Nicole [00:30:24]: Right.

John [00:30:24]: And they can always find the exception. And then you've.

Nicole [00:30:27]: And then you're arguing.

John [00:30:28]: Now they're gonna argue. They're arguing the exception. Instead of. You can say in these three instances, you did this. Right. And they can argue those instances.

Nicole [00:30:37]: Or like, recently I felt like you haven't really been paying attention to what I've been saying. Or I don't know, you know what I mean? Like, recently.

John [00:30:45]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:30:46]: Or you know, for the past, like three times, like you said. Or whatever. Like. Like you need. Like it's not your responsibility. But also at the same time, you have to realize that you could be phrasing things in a way that is going to trigger somebody to be defensive. And again, like, you should be intentional with your word.

John [00:31:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:10]: Especially if you're bringing up your feelings again. Like, the emotional safety of it is that if it's not perfect, like, you should still be able to not be defensive. Even if someone says something passive aggressive to you or says always or never, hear them out. And then at the end be like, hey, I really want to work on us being able to work through things a lot easier if we can. So can we not say these certain words, like always, never, because they're not realistic and they just cause both of us to be defensive. Or when you are coming to me because you're hurt about something, can you be actually vulnerable, not passive aggressive with it? You Know what I mean? Which is not easy to do in the moment when we're hurt. It's not easy to remember these things. But with practice you can do it and it will make your discussions better. And I need to do this. I need to. To not take things personally, to get defensive about and to be careful of the things that I say and ask clarifying questions instead of assuming things. That's another thing that can get people into a lot of trouble is, you

John [00:32:23]: know, what do you mean by this? This is what I heard. That's a good. Like when you said this, this is how I interpreted it. Is that what you meant?

Nicole [00:32:33]: Right.

John [00:32:34]: That's always a good check.

Nicole [00:32:35]: But also be. You should still be, like I said, intentional with the things that you're saying. Because sometimes things are said in a vague way and it is gonna be confusing and then you can't be upset if someone's confused about it. You get what I mean? It's a slippery slope. So if you come from a place of, if you're hurt, trying to come from a vulnerable place, not be like, you never do this. Cause the thing is with your partner, why do you want to act like they never do this to you? That's not true. Never doing it is not true. So why don't you want to handle it in a way that's going to actually get them involved in your hurt with you? Does that make sense? Because when you choose fighting, I want to say fighting or words that kind of like attack somebody, it doesn't have to be full on, like you're an asshole. You know, it can be like passive aggressive. Like when we're hurt, we do still tend to, like I say, we just like us in general as human beings, want to like, dig at the other person a little bit. Want them to feel our pain just a little bit. And that doesn't really make us feel. Feel any better because it causes more problems when you're trying to fix it.

John [00:34:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:01]: And so again, women, I think, really struggle with this because I think women will throw things like emotional safety or you triggered me to try to control people, right?

John [00:34:15]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:34:16]: Or try to use it as a get out of jail free card. And that's not acceptable.

John [00:34:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:25]: And just like, you know, it's not acceptable for me to be defensive. It's not acceptable for me to deflect. It's not acceptable for me to do all these things.

John [00:34:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:34]: And I want you to be able to talk to me about it and I appreciate you talking to me about it. Even when you're in a state where you're upset and you're trying to get through to me. And so, like, I'm sorry that I have not made you feel emotionally safe, but I appreciate you being in it with me so that we can get to a place where you do feel emotionally safe and that I learn from the things that I've done. Because that's the thing is, like, if you just give up.

John [00:35:05]: Yeah, that's no good.

Nicole [00:35:07]: If you can't hear what your partner has to say, you're never gonna learn from those things. You're gonna be repeating the same things over and over again, if not worse. It's gonna spread like, your arguments are gonna get worse, and you might end up divorced. But if you can be in it with each other, if you can hear those hard things, if you can be open to what the person has to say, if you can not defend yourself, if you cannot deflect, if you can face it, if you can be intentional with your words, if you can be vulnerable, those will all help you in your relationship, and you will feel emotionally safe, and you will feel like you can talk to your partner about anything, even if you have to tell them hard things about themselves.

John [00:35:53]: Yeah. Yeah. So I agree. I agree. Yeah. I think it's just a matter of, like, you know, you can't just cut bait on every. The whole point of the relationship is to grow. And so you can't just go, I can't be hurt. Or, you know, it's like, you don't just give up on. You have to figure out how can you work through, how can you be heard so that you can indicate how important this is and then deal with that issue. Right.

Nicole [00:36:23]: It is hard if the other person's committed to not. I get that. But if the person loves you and you guys are trying to be the best versions of yourself and work through it, then you will get there, and you do have to show up. And that's the thing is, like, look, I've been in the position you're talking about where I did feel like at one point of our relationship that everything we talked about was an argument in some ways, and it was defeating. But I knew what we had, and I knew that I believed in you. And I don't know what, again, what conversation it was that made you really think about it. But I am glad that you focused on it and that we've got through it, and now I need to do the same and show up like that

John [00:37:16]: for you, I think it just. For me, it just Became like, a habit of recognizing and then just knowing how to respond. And even. Just like, even. I'll give you a good example. When your water bottle was lost this weekend. I won't name any names. And you had texted me, and at first I was like, the way that you had sent the first text was like, I can't find it anywhere. It sounded very accusatory towards me. And then. And then at first, I wanted to really justify and be like, oh, it's not my fault. And then as I started. I started thinking about the text when I was reading the text. And like, you had said, I think you owe me an apology. Because I had said that it was. You said it was there, it was there, and it wasn't there. And I didn't know it wasn't there. I wasn't the one who didn't put it there. But. But my point is that at that point, when you said that you owe me an apology for that, I was thinking about this and I was like, okay, I can respond and I can be defensive, and I can be like, it's not my fault. I thought this was there and that's why, and blah, blah, blah. Or I can recognize that you're upset right now for whatever reason, whatever I think about the situation, you're upset. And what I need to do instead of being defensive is acknowledge that you're upset and give you what you need right now, which is to acknowledge that you have a right to be upset and that I'm sorry that. That I told you it was there when it wasn't there. Not, like, no explanation for the reason why or whatever, or like someone else took it, which was what happened. But that doesn't matter because I could go down that road and then we're gonna be discussing it for three hours instead, because that is defensive. It's like, regardless of the reasoning for it, just when that comes up now, I think about it, I stop. I'm like, what does she need right now? What would I need if I were in her place right now? What would I want to hear? Right? It's not an admission of guilt. It's just like, I'm sorry. And understanding of that you're upset. I understand this. And even when I came home, I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm sorry that I can understand how that's disturbing to you or how that upsets you and listen to you, because that's what I would want. You know what I'm saying? Like, but that was an example of, like, of what goes through My head now is like, because you still want to be defensive, right? But then I realized, like, okay, that is being defensive. If I try to counter this or try to say, make some reasoning for it or excuse for it or say, I don't owe you an apology. I didn't take the water bottle, whatever it is, like, all of those things are defensive. Like, that's not.

Nicole [00:40:29]: Well, I'm more so mad because you told me it was there and then it wasn't there.

John [00:40:33]: Right, right.

Nicole [00:40:34]: So, like, in my mind, that is like, if you're confident. You know what I mean? Like, that's. I didn't think it was your fault.

John [00:40:43]: No, no, no. But still, like, yeah, exactly. That's why you're upset. And so I don't need to defend that. Like, I did tell you it was there, Right. And even now. Right, Even now, Right. Like, you just told me this. This is a perfect example of life. Right? Because you just told me why you're upset because I told you that it was there. If I'm confident enough. So what do I need to give you in this moment? I agree with you. You're right. That's what you want to hear. And then it's not just to like to. But it's because that makes you feel like I heard you and understood you. And I'm not defending it. Whether I agree 100% with, like, I can come up with my own narration of like, well, yeah, but I didn't know that it wasn't there, which is true. But that's not what you want to hear. That doesn't help. That's defensive. If I say, yeah, you're right. I told you it was there. I acted confident. So I do owe you an apology because I asserted that and I hadn't checked for myself and I turned out to be wrong.

Nicole [00:41:47]: Right.

John [00:41:47]: How much better does that make you feel that I just said that right now than if I would have gone down a different road?

Nicole [00:41:52]: A lot better.

John [00:41:53]: Right. And that's what I figured out and learned. And it's true. Right. So that's the thing that goes through my head now is like, thinking about that situation and processing it that way. Because what benefit do I have if I go the other way? Just a little bit of ego. Right. Then my ego's in. I'm like. Because I could have responded just now and I could have said, yeah, but. Yeah, but I. Like, I thought it was there, and that's why I said it was there. I didn't say it was there. Cause I was lying to you or to deceive you. I thought it was there because I saw it there. Right. It doesn't even make you feel good when I'm saying it right now. I can see in your face. Right, but because there's no because. If I said all that stuff because

Nicole [00:42:34]: I'm trying not to defend what you're saying now.

John [00:42:37]: Right. But I'm saying I could have said that. Right. But if I said all that stuff exactly, like, how does it make you feel? It doesn't make you feel any good. It doesn't do anything good for me either. Instead, just to acknowledge your viewpoint. Because you're trying to share your viewpoint with me when you're trying to share.

Nicole [00:42:53]: I'm just trying to get the water bottle.

John [00:42:55]: Exactly. Yeah. But if I then overtop your viewpoint with mine, which is what defensiveness is, as mine's trumping yours, then it doesn't do you any good. It doesn't do me any good. It doesn't get you what you're. You felt a lot better when I said the first thing. Then even when I just explained the second thing. I'm not even telling you the second thing, but just talked about the second thing. It still probably made you feel a certain way because it's defensive. And that's what I think. That's a good example, though.

Nicole [00:43:26]: Yeah. It's not taking accountability, which, look, like you said, you don't have to agree with everything because it's gonna be fueled by some emotion. I mean, with the water bottle thing, I was not emotional. I just wanted the water bottle. But with an emotional thing, sure, there's definitely gonna be emotions there, and you're gonna want to defend your emotions even more than defending a water bottle.

John [00:43:47]: But I do agree with you with the water bottle, and you had the right to be upset, and I did tell you that it was there, and I was wrong about it. And I did owe you an apology.

Nicole [00:43:57]: Yeah, you did. So, but like, you were saying, like, it's just about the accountability of it. Especially, like, I needed to do that yesterday. Or was it yesterday?

John [00:44:11]: Yeah, no, I think it was the

Nicole [00:44:13]: day before, two days ago, when we had the conversation that we had. And, like, that is important. That's an important part of it. And, like, I was focused on making sure you had the story 100,000% correct. And that's not the important thing. Now, if, like, you. You're saying I hit you and I didn't hit you, I don't know how I would handle that because I would probably get defensive. But the Other stuff that we were talking about, it was not. Your emotions were way more important than getting the story precisely how it was or whatever was going on in my mind that was making me defend everything. I do think accountability goes into it, especially with women. I mean, men talk about all the time that women don't take accountability. Accountability for the things, you know, especially in emotional instances, I'm sure, because like you said, they tend to be like, they don't say out loud explicitly, but that they're the only ones that are allowed to be emotional. And guys probably don't feel heard by a lot of the women in their life.

John [00:45:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:19]: But they can be emotional. So women do have to. Women have to give men what they want from men. And so I have to work on giving you exactly what you just explained that you give me because it does feel better, like you said, and it's not worth the slight ego boost to be correct.

John [00:45:41]: And that's what I was saying. I think it just becomes a habit where you pause and you think about it and then you feel better. You know what I mean? Like, I don't feel better when I'm defending myself. I think in the moment that I'll feel better defending myself, but then I feel misunderstood because you're definitely not gonna be empathetic to my defense. You're never gonna be like. You're never gonna defend yourself. And the other person's gonna be like, oh, you're right. That's. Oh, yeah. That's a really good explanation you had for that. I didn't even realize that was true.

Nicole [00:46:10]: How long has that ever happened?

John [00:46:11]: Never is gonna happen. Right?

Nicole [00:46:13]: Yeah.

John [00:46:14]: But you do feel a lot better when you just make the other person feel understood.

Nicole [00:46:19]: Right. Well, and put yourself in their shoes. Like you said.

John [00:46:22]: That's the important thing. It's not about being right or wrong. It's not about, like, you know, the ego part gets in there. But I, like you said, I have made it a habit now where it comes automatic to me to think about it and choose how I'm going to respond and realize that, okay. I can in. My instinct is still to be defensive.

Nicole [00:46:46]: Yeah.

John [00:46:46]: But my habit comes into play where it's like, okay, no, I don't. I don't. I don't respond that way.

Nicole [00:46:52]: Yeah. Which I do think the defensiveness and things like that are a huge part of the emotional safety. But I will say the words, too, because people can say really nasty things to people when they're upset and then act like they should just forgive them or that it's okay because they were emotional. And that's never okay. No, like, it's not. Like, if you're doing it right now, you need to learn to not. Because if you, when you're in an argument or disagreement with your partner, are slinging out nasty things and it doesn't even have to be like you're a bitch or whatever, it can be like something fucked up about something else in your life that's not okay. Or it's like, you know, even, like I said, even like microaggressions or like passive aggressive comments while you're trying to be vulnerable. That's not actually being vulnerable. Like, that is you picking a fight in the middle of. You're trying to feel heard and understood and be vulnerable, but you're picking a fight when you use words like that. And I do think that matters. Again, I think the defensiveness and things like that, the deflection, the not taking accountability, the silent treatment or whatever, those things are bigger. But I will say that if you're just careless with the way that you say things when you're upset, that will cause all the bigger problems to start happening, if they're not already happening as well.

John [00:48:24]: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah. Then you can't expect emotional safety if you're actually emotionally attacking.

Nicole [00:48:34]: Exactly.

John [00:48:35]: Then it's kind of ridiculous to smack someone in the head and then run away and then be like, hey, they're trying to hurt me. It's like, well, you smack them in the head first.

Nicole [00:48:46]: So, yeah, I don't know.

John [00:48:47]: They're attacking me, but you smack them in the head.

Nicole [00:48:51]: Yeah. Like, you hurt my feelings. You're an asshole. Like, yeah, okay. You're really expecting somebody to hear you out after you just attacked to them.

John [00:49:02]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:04]: Like, I don't. That's not gonna work very well for you at all. And then also you have to deal with the fact that now your partner is like, wow, they think I'm an asshole now they have to deal with that. Now you have a whole nother problem that you just created.

John [00:49:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:16]: So.

John [00:49:17]: But yeah, but I do think a lot of. A lot of people hide behind the emotional safety. And like we said, a lot of women, Relationships will hide behind that. And that's not because it's a double standard in the sense that, like, what they would not tolerate, they're expecting to be tolerated. That's not. Okay.

Nicole [00:49:36]: No, that's. What do you call that? Double standard.

John [00:49:39]: Double standard? Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:41]: Or what's the other word?

John [00:49:42]: I'm trying to think of another word. I think it's double standard. I don't know, like a. I don't know what other.

Nicole [00:49:51]: I don't have a word. I feel like there's another word.

John [00:49:53]: I feel like it's the perfect word. But is there something else?

Nicole [00:49:55]: I'm thinking of another word. I don't know. It'll come to me.

John [00:50:04]: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah. Because I think a lot of times that is the case. And that has to be. Because sometimes also. And this is where it happens with women a lot. Because, remember we did an episode of Men are Afraid of Women. This is why men are afraid of women.

Nicole [00:50:19]: Because they're not emotionally safe with women.

John [00:50:21]: Because they're like, it's not worth the juice, isn't worth the squeeze. Because they don't want to rock the boat. They know what's gonna happen every time that they say something. So they just. They're like, okay, I'm never gonna say anything. Cause it's like every single thing becomes a big knockdown fight when I'm just trying to say how I feel about a thing.

Nicole [00:50:42]: Yeah. And so that's hard.

John [00:50:44]: So then they're afraid. So then they get in situations where the woman is just running the show because it's just the cost is too great to try and stop her or to say anything that's bothering you. So that's a big deal.

Nicole [00:50:59]: And she probably makes it worse, honestly. Because a lot of women don't want to hear what they're doing. Because like I said in the last episode, a lot of even women friendships, they don't want friends that hold them accountable. They want friends that validate them.

John [00:51:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:16]: I can't see those women being any different in relationship.

John [00:51:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:19]: So you know what I say to everybody and what I truly mean is that if the people closest to you can't help you address and work on the bad parts of you or the bad habits you have, then no one can.

John [00:51:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:38]: So again, like, your partner should not be, like, calling you a bitch or an asshole. They should still be explaining it to you in a way where you feel like they want to help you work through this situation.

John [00:51:53]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:51:54]: But you should listen to them.

John [00:51:55]: Maybe unilateral is the.

Nicole [00:51:57]: No, no. Nice try, though. I don't know.

John [00:52:03]: I think it's double standard, maybe.

Nicole [00:52:06]: I feel like there's another, like, one word word. Like, it's ironic that, like, women.

John [00:52:20]: Hypocritical.

Nicole [00:52:21]: Hypocritical.

John [00:52:22]: Okay. That's the one I didn't even need to use. AI Look, I have my own brain Hypocritical.

Nicole [00:52:27]: Yeah, it's hypocritical.

John [00:52:30]: So, like, yeah, you did it. And then hide behind the emotional safety.

Nicole [00:52:34]: Yeah, I'm really over. Obviously, the, like, hiding behind words. Like emotional safety therapy words.

John [00:52:41]: Exactly. The boundary thing becomes the same thing as, like, a true boundary is like, it's not imposing what someone else is going to do. It's like, what you're going to do in a situation. But then also, again, it's like, it has to be very. Because those things mix together. The emotional safety and the boundary thing is like, I'm setting a boundary because I'm not emotionally safe is what happens. And then it's like, look, in the course of a discussion, you only set the boundary if it's really important to set the boundary. It's like someone's calling you names. Someone's doing something like that. Because otherwise you're shutting down. If you're like, okay. If you say that if someone is

Nicole [00:53:23]: defensive, it does make you want to shut down. Like, extremely defensive.

John [00:53:26]: I think to be like, I would. Even then, like, you cannot be like, okay, I'm setting a boundary. If you respond defensively to me, then I'm not gonna have this conversation anymore.

Nicole [00:53:38]: I don't think it would be that. I think it would be if you aren't gonna hear me out and actually listen to what I'm gonna have to say,

John [00:53:47]: that's also interpretive. I think that's still not a place to set a boundary. I think it's better to say, can you agree to hearing what I have to say without responding to it and then repeating back to me in your words, just so I understand that you understand what I'm saying. And then whatever your response is to that, we can address that afterwards. But I want to be heard first and make sure that you understand what I'm saying.

Nicole [00:54:16]: That's a good way to put it.

John [00:54:17]: I think that's a fair way to put it. Rather than. Because it just becomes like, the boundary becomes a shutdown. It's like, okay, because it's interpreted like, okay, if you say, if you can't listen to what I'm saying, then I'm not gonna have this conversation. The other person thinks they're listening to what you're saying, but they're also saying what they have to say. So it's like, it becomes a very. Like, anytime you set about, like, the boundary has to be something serious. Like, okay, if you get in my face. Yeah. If you scream at me. Right. Like, yell at me. It has to be like, really yelling. Like, not an interpretive thing. Like, you're yelling a name at me or whatever. You call me a name, you slam. You're making a fist at me. Like you're threatening me. Like, any of those things. Those are like, where, okay, set the boundary right.

Nicole [00:55:04]: Like, making a fist at me, I'm calling the police. You make a fist at me, I'm calling the police.

John [00:55:10]: I'm just saying, like, these are areas where it makes sense to have a. Because setting the boundaries too early, restricting someone's actions makes it where. Now you're shutting down conversation and you're making it where it's like, especially when you're the one interpreting. It has to be a very unambiguous thing where it's not up to interpretation. Like, this is clearly a violation of the boundary. Right. It can't be like, so that's where I think. But the emotional safety and boundary thing goes right together.

Nicole [00:55:42]: I think you should just not even use any of these terms.

John [00:55:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:45]: Even if it's happening, just be like, okay, like, if someone's yelling at you, don't be like, you're going to cross my boundary or you've crossed my boundary. Be like, if you continue to yell at me, I'm going to walk away. You don't have to say, I'm implementing a boundary now. Or like, if you're having a conversation, someone's being defensive. You don't have to be like, I feel emotionally unsafe now. Yeah, Like, I think that people get in more problems and more trouble by throwing these words in there.

John [00:56:13]: Exactly. Well, and even the thing is like, even, like, let's take the yelling one. It's so much better to say before you even set the boundary to say, look, you're yelling at me. Can you please stop yelling at me so that we can have the conversation better? And then if they're still yelling at you, then to say, okay, I asked you to please stop yelling at me. You're still yelling at me. If you continue to do it, I'm going to have to end the conversation or walk away because I can't be yelled at. And I've asked you. Like, that's because the thing is, even when you read about boundaries, the thing I think people skip is you don't just immediately set a boundary. You call out the thing first and ask nicely for the person to stop. It'd be like, I'm trying to think of a good analogy of when you just immediately set a boundary. It's like, let's say you went into A store, and you were touching something that they didn't want you to touch, and they immediately said, if you touch that, you're gonna have to leave the store, that would feel extremely rude and very, like, confrontational. Right. But if they said to you, hey, excuse me, can you please not touch that? Right. And then if you still touched it, and then they said, if you continue to touch that, you're gonna have to. If you touch that again, you're gonna have to leave the store. Then. Now it's warranted. Now you don't feel like they have used the boundary to slap you in

Nicole [00:57:40]: the face unless it has a do not touch on it and you touch that.

John [00:57:44]: That's already the warning. That's already the warning.

Nicole [00:57:46]: But see, that's where I think is that you should already know not to yell at people.

John [00:57:50]: Yeah, but it's still, like, not everyone is, like, is aware.

Nicole [00:57:55]: Yeah.

John [00:57:55]: Yeah. Okay. But not everyone is always aware when they're getting emotional of what they're doing or where they're at. So it's like, even the same thing. You could even say with being defensive, which, again, I don't think about setting the boundary, but you can say, can you. When I talk to you, can you try to not, like, respond by defending yourself so that I can be heard? That's the first step before going to, hey, if you keep. But even then, I still don't think you should set the boundary and be like, if you're being defensive, I'm not gonna talk to you. Because that's not very conductive to the relationship. But definitely the yelling. Before you set a boundary, you should always give an ask first. It's rude to just to set an ultimatum.

Nicole [00:58:39]: It's rude to yell at people, though.

John [00:58:40]: It is. But it's rude to, before you set a boundary, to just go straight to a boundary.

Nicole [00:58:47]: I hear what you're saying, but I do think it's rude to also yell at people.

John [00:58:50]: I agree with you.

Nicole [00:58:51]: Sorry. I'm not trying to be defensive. I'm just like, if other people can have a conversation and be upset and not yell,

John [00:59:01]: I get it. But also, if other people can have a conversation and not be defensive, then, like, anything that you say, you can make an argument and be like this. Like, every protocol that is violated is violated. Like, you know, like, you're gonna violate some protocols.

Nicole [00:59:16]: Okay, you're right. Don't yell at me.

John [00:59:22]: Okay.

Nicole [00:59:23]: Not that you're yelling now.

John [00:59:24]: I'm not.

Nicole [00:59:24]: Just don't yell at me.

John [00:59:26]: Okay, I won't yell at you. You're too beautiful to yell at. Thank you. All right. Got anything else?

Nicole [00:59:35]: I think covered all of it.

John [00:59:36]: Okay, well, that's it for this week. If you have a question for us or topic. Yeah, don't type it all in caps.

Nicole [00:59:45]: Don't yell at me.

John [00:59:49]: You can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com and check out the website. Subscribe. We got some it's better than perfect podcast. We have a lot. We have, like, 20 some subscribers in there, but they're weird email. Like, none of them are Gmail addresses. So I feel like it's some kind of, like, bot or something or some kind of spam thing. So I don't know. Like, I want to see some real people. Yeah, real, real. It's for real people, not for AI. That's right. All right, we'll see you next.