John [00:00:00]: I think a lot of people, though, that do lie do believe that it'll never get found out.

Nicole [00:00:03]: Okay, look, men love statistics. It's not the majority, statistically, that you're going to get away with a lie.

John [00:00:09]: Right. But people buy lottery tickets.

Nicole [00:00:10]: Probably like 10%. Yes. People buy lottery tickets. But if men don't want to get married because of a statistic that is more favorable.

John [00:00:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:00:18]: Then will you get away with lying or not?

John [00:00:20]: I don't want to make it sound like women don't lie either, because there's no.

Nicole [00:00:23]: They do. It pisses women off. It pisses women off when women lie because it's like, you know. You know what lying has done to you. You.

John [00:00:32]: Yeah. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. I got the. The. What is it? The phone dementia? That's what I got. Like, I got the phone dementia. I guess so. Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:05]: The AI.

John [00:01:06]: Yeah. It's taking my brain.

Nicole [00:01:08]: Yeah, it is. What's happening there, turning into your brain. It's like you just don't have to do anything. You're just like. Your brain's on vacation.

John [00:01:16]: All right.

Nicole [00:01:16]: Which probably feels good.

John [00:01:17]: Yeah. And I don't know. It's like I'm stumbling on my words. But what are we talking about today? We're talking about lying. Lying, lying. And, like, what. What truths to talk about? Like, what kind of information should you reveal to your partner? What kind of information should you not reveal to your partner? Because there are actually some things that you should not reveal to your partner. So.

Nicole [00:01:38]: Yes.

John [00:01:38]: Yeah. Well, you want to. You want to kick this one off?

Nicole [00:01:42]: Okay. Yeah. I want to start, though, with the lying.

John [00:01:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:45]: Right.

John [00:01:45]: Yeah, let's start.

Nicole [00:01:46]: Because a lot of people, and I'm trying not to say men, but a lot of times men do this more often than women. Women also lie. I'm not saying they don't.

John [00:01:56]: Sure.

Nicole [00:01:57]: But they'll be in a relationship. They'll either cheat, which, again, is lying, or they'll lie about something like where they went or who they're with or whatever.

John [00:02:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:11]: Because they think that that makes it better.

John [00:02:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:16]: They think that now they've skirted a problem.

John [00:02:20]: Sure.

Nicole [00:02:21]: But then that makes it a million times worse.

John [00:02:23]: And why does it make it a million times worse?

Nicole [00:02:25]: Because now you've broken the trust, which is a fundamental thing in the relationship. And also takes a while to rebuild depending on how bad the lie was. Like, obviously, if it was a little lie or whatever. Again, I'm team. You shouldn't lie to your partner.

John [00:02:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:45]: At all. Because even a little white light could spiral into something huge and then you got a catastrophe. But either way, that's going to take a lot to rebuild that trust.

John [00:02:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:58]: And can it even be rebuilt?

John [00:03:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:02]: So it can literally end the relationship.

John [00:03:05]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:05]: And again, like, people might be like, oh, it was a little white lie. That's the gateway drug of lying.

John [00:03:12]: Yeah. Yeah. And. Well, I mean, coming. Speaking from experience of someone, I mean,

Nicole [00:03:17]: I was going to ask you.

John [00:03:19]: The web of lies, it becomes a web of lies, like they say, because then it's like all of a sudden you're in. In it. And you got to maintain these stories and then you have different people. You've told one thing or whatever, or you've told the same thing. And now to unravel all that is a. Is a big. But you just started with one little white lie or whatever it was, and then pretty soon you get yourself tangled up in a web.

Nicole [00:03:46]: Yeah.

John [00:03:46]: So.

Nicole [00:03:47]: And then it all comes crumbling down.

John [00:03:49]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:51]: So, But I mean, okay, like, not to put you on the spot.

John [00:03:55]: Sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:55]: But why? I guess I, I, and I feel like women. And I'm sure men too.

John [00:04:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:02]: But we'll go from women since you're a man and I'm a woman and we're talking about this. Why do men lie?

John [00:04:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:10]: Why do, like, people hide these things from their relationship? And I know you can't answer for every single instance.

John [00:04:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:17]: But I think it would be beneficial to hear, like, the why behind it. Not that it would excuse the behavior.

John [00:04:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:25]: But it would help people understand why people do it. And then I feel like when people understand why, they can also. It also helps them see why it's not a good idea, even though they've told themselves that it, it will benefit them somehow.

John [00:04:39]: Yeah. I think there's a lot of different reasons why. I think it comes down to sometimes it's because you just want to do what you want to do.

Nicole [00:04:48]: Selfishness.

John [00:04:49]: Right. I think sometimes it comes down to that. You don't feel like you'll be understood or like when you, if you do tell the truth, that you'll be dealt with in a. So judged in a receptive way. Yeah. Yeah. There'll be too much consequences for, for that. And yeah.

Nicole [00:05:11]: I mean, skirting responsibility because you said there'll be too many consequences.

John [00:05:15]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Skirting responsibility. Yeah. I'd say that those are probably the main, main things, I think, you know, when someone thinks about, about lying to their partner, they're, they're thinking about, like, what will, like they're thinking that the consequences of telling the truth will be worse than the, the consequences of not telling the truth. Right.

Nicole [00:05:37]: But are they thinking about it long term? Because I just have a hard time believing that. Yeah, I believe that in the moment.

John [00:05:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:45]: I believe that people do benefit from lying in the moment.

John [00:05:48]: Sure.

Nicole [00:05:48]: But I don't feel like anybody benefits from lying eventually comes out, especially like long term. Right. Like if you hold on to a lie for a long time.

John [00:05:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:00]: Yes. Someone may forgive you, but honestly, it might be 10 million times worse because it now it's 10 years later.

John [00:06:07]: No? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:06:09]: And someone's been living their life a certain way for 10 years without knowing a vital piece of information, right?

John [00:06:16]: Yeah. I mean, I think if you, if you think it will never come out,

Nicole [00:06:21]: then, but is that realistic?

John [00:06:24]: And I guess maybe men think some cases it's realistic. Right.

Nicole [00:06:27]: Like, I mean, who do you know that has lied and it's never come out?

John [00:06:32]: I mean, there's, I'm sure there's plenty of people we don't know because it didn't come out.

Nicole [00:06:36]: I mean, I personally feel like whatever's done in the dark will come to light.

John [00:06:40]: Yeah. And I agree, and I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying that that's the psychology behind it. Right.

Nicole [00:06:44]: So you, so it's the deception of it. You're. You think you won't get caught. It's like a serial killer.

John [00:06:52]: Yeah. Most people who are lying are not planning on getting caught. Otherwise, why would you do it?

Nicole [00:06:58]: Like serial killers.

John [00:07:00]: Yeah, kind of. Except some serial killers equal serial killers.

Nicole [00:07:04]: No correlation does not equal causation. But yeah, that is similar. Yeah, it's very similar.

John [00:07:12]: But I, like, I could speak from my own experience when I was lying, when I was living a double life. Right. It wasn't like I was like, trying to just lie. Like, that was like, oh, this is what I'll do, I'll lie. It was. I was trying to live a double life. I had things that I, I didn't want to. You know, in, in my previous relationship in that situation, there was reasons why I'm not going to get into like, all of the things here because I don't want to run a smear campaign because I made these choices, but, like, I didn't want to I wanted to do what I wanted to do, but I didn't want to face the consequences of doing that, if that makes sense. Right. And so.

Nicole [00:08:01]: But what in life, the easier path would you do that with besides relationships? What in life can you do that? When does that ever work?

John [00:08:10]: Yeah, well, I mean, it's complicated obviously. Right. Like the choices. But ultimately it's better to just face the consequences up front. Right. Rather than facing the consequences at the end. I think that's what it comes down to is that if you have consequences and you face them up front, they're a lot less than consequences that you face later on in life. It's the same thing as the discipline. Right. Versus punishment. Okay. You know, if you, if you have self discipline, what you're doing is you're paying the price first and then getting the reward.

Nicole [00:08:47]: Yeah.

John [00:08:47]: If you don't, you pay the reward and then you get the punishment. And that is the. It's a higher price.

Nicole [00:08:54]: Yeah.

John [00:08:54]: It's the same thing here.

Nicole [00:08:55]: Well, that's what I'm trying to understand, I guess is because, like, do people who lie like to these levels in relationships genuinely think that they will never get any consequence? Because it also seems kind of like the cowardly way, like, I'm not trying to attack you, but like, like, like feeling a way that's. So we'll just use cheating. But there's other ways that people lie in relationships. But feeling like you want to be intimate with someone else. Right, Right. Why would you. I'm not saying tell your partner you want to be intimate with someone else. Yeah, but why would you not instead, like, do some inner work. Be like, okay, is this just a feeling? Like, is this a fleeting feeling? Is, does this mean I need to have a conversation with my partner to figure out like, what's going on, like, and repair our relationship. Is it unrepairable? And I do need to end this relationship and then, then have a conversation. And still it doesn't have to be I want to sleep with other people.

John [00:10:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:04]: But it either needs to be like, hey, like, we really need to work on this.

John [00:10:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:08]: And I do think that it's fair to be like, because I am having some feelings or thinking about things that I don't want to do. But that's what's caused me to analyze this and realize this is a big deal. Yeah, I think that's fair because that's

John [00:10:23]: being honest and then you're.

Nicole [00:10:24]: And it's in the context.

John [00:10:25]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:26]: Or hey, like, you know, and again, I'm not saying be this brash about it, but, like. Like, this isn't working. I do want to be with someone else. Or, you know, like, I don't. I can't see this relationship continuing. I guess, like, that's just what a lot of people on the other side who've been lied to or whatever are like, how does this math.

John [00:10:51]: Math, Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, have you ever lied in your life?

Nicole [00:10:55]: I mean, everybody's lied.

John [00:10:57]: Okay. I was gonna say. Cause that would be the first one.

Nicole [00:11:00]: No, I mean, everybody's lied, and I'm not expecting everyone. You never lie, ever.

John [00:11:06]: But, like, there's always a rationalization or a justification for it that always seems to make sense in that moment. Right. Otherwise we wouldn't do it.

Nicole [00:11:14]: I guess I just can't see. See, honestly, I cannot see the rationalization with lying about severe things.

John [00:11:24]: For sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:25]: Like lying about something you know is going to hurt your partner. Like cheating on your partner no matter what anyone says, you know, will hurt them. Like, honestly.

John [00:11:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:34]: You know, if they found out.

John [00:11:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:38]: That would hurt them.

John [00:11:39]: But there's the if. Right.

Nicole [00:11:42]: But see, that's not enough for me. Like, I guess I got it. I guess my conscience can't live.

John [00:11:46]: I don't disagree with you with this

Nicole [00:11:48]: thing of, like, I have to keep this a secret for the rest of my life. Like, that sounds like a prison.

John [00:11:53]: Honestly. It is a prison because take it from someone who did live a double life, it is a prison that you create for yourself.

Nicole [00:12:00]: Yeah. And I'm not trying to go to prison mentally or physically.

John [00:12:03]: It's very hard to escape that prison at some point. So. Yeah, so you're absolutely right. Right. So. But, yeah, but my point is, is that at that point, when we lie, we make a rationalization also, sometimes we're kicking the can down the road. Right. Like, we make these choices as humans all the time where we're like, well, I'd rather not go to the dentist, or I'd rather not, you know, I'd rather not get my blood drawn and

Nicole [00:12:32]: just, okay, shots fired.

John [00:12:35]: No, I'd rather not clean my room. Or I'd rather not, you know, like, e. Healthy. Right. Or I'll go to the gym. So we're kicking the can down the road. We're procrastinating. We're. We're. We're. We're getting the consequences later because we want to do what we want to do now.

Nicole [00:12:49]: Right.

John [00:12:50]: That's what we do as humans a lot of times. So I think.

Nicole [00:12:52]: But that's on Me, like those things are on me. You know what I mean? I feel like it's different when someone else is involved and like, you know, you're going to hurt them. So let's not even use cheating.

John [00:13:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:02]: Like let's say some guy goes and hangs out with his ex behind his wife's back, right?

John [00:13:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:10]: Right.

John [00:13:10]: Yeah. Like why lie about it? Why do it? That's the question.

Nicole [00:13:17]: Why?

John [00:13:17]: He's getting something out of it and he thinks that the, that the consequences like that, that he won't be. That it won't come to light.

Nicole [00:13:27]: But my question is, and if it

John [00:13:29]: does, then it's going to be later in the, in the future.

Nicole [00:13:32]: My question is, do you not care about your partner?

John [00:13:36]: No. I think in that case, right. Maybe that person thinks, oh, it's not going to hurt them. It's not, it's not that big of a deal.

Nicole [00:13:43]: But if you have to lie about

John [00:13:44]: cheating on them, it's going to hurt them. Right. Because. Because now you've created something that is going to hurt them, which is the break, the breach of trust.

Nicole [00:13:51]: Right?

John [00:13:51]: Right. Because that's the thing that hurts. Because it's not, it's not the action that's done Right. Even, even when, even in a cheating situation. I would say that in fact there's books about it which agree is that more of the hurt from the cheating doesn't come from the actual cheating, but comes from the betrayal of the trust in the relationship in the sense that this person did this thing and lied to you about it and acted like everything was normal or fine. That trust is breached because obviously cheating is bad. But most people would rather and be more likely to forgive a person, although you should forgive no matter what. But you know, like in the way that we use the word forgiveness, a person who cheated on them and immediately told them versus someone who cheated and kept it a secret, you know what I'm saying? And then it came out so couldn't be me. But you get what I'm saying though.

Nicole [00:14:55]: I get what you're saying that they came forward. But it's also like, but you lied and then you just immediately like unlied. Like I agree with you that I think the longer you wait, it does make it worse. I said that earlier, but I guess

John [00:15:09]: like, well, it's not a lie if you, if you cheated and then you immediately said what you did.

Nicole [00:15:16]: It's not a lie, but it's a betrayal.

John [00:15:18]: Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:19]: And I do feel like it is. You still can't trust that person. Like they still did something behind your back and like. Yes.

John [00:15:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:27]: And I honestly, I'm not trying to like, attack you or men right now.

John [00:15:30]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:15:31]: And I'm not saying women don't do this either.

John [00:15:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:33]: Disclaimer.

John [00:15:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:35]: But I do feel like you're just justify.

John [00:15:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:40]: Like they try to justify.

John [00:15:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:43]: Their actions for sure. And they withhold information.

John [00:15:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:47]: In order not to lie. But withholding certain information is still lying. Like, for sure. Not tell. Like, not lying. Not being like, yeah, oh, I'm going to work, and you go cheat.

John [00:16:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:01]: Like that would be lying.

John [00:16:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:02]: But if you just left the house and you went and cheated, then you're like, why didn't lie? Because I didn't say what I was doing. Right. Like, men do that mental. A lot more.

John [00:16:11]: I went to work and.

Nicole [00:16:12]: Right. And cheated there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, I do feel like men more often do that. Like they try to justify. They try to loophole.

John [00:16:20]: Well, decep. Deceiving someone is the same as lying. So that it doesn't matter if you say a thing. The act of deception is. Is a lie. So.

Nicole [00:16:30]: Yeah. Well. And it confuses me, I guess, because men focus, I feel like a lot more on character. Not that women don't.

John [00:16:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:40]: But they don't even realize when they lie and they do stuff like that. It's annihilates their character. And I guess that's what confuses a lot of women. They're like, one. How do you not know that you're gonna hurt somebody?

John [00:16:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:51]: By doing this. And like, yes, maybe it is that you don't care, but you're gonna hurt yourself.

John [00:16:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:58]: And you, You. You want to have a nice moment so bad that you don't care if it destroys other people and yourself.

John [00:17:08]: But that's the choices that humans make in general. Right. Is exactly that. I want this now. I don't care about the consequences.

Nicole [00:17:15]: But doesn't that seem a little childish?

John [00:17:17]: Every overweight person makes that choice. Every person who is in debt made that choice. You see what I'm saying? Every person that has created consequences for themselves in the future but has taken the fast or easy path or pleasurable path in the present has made that choice.

Nicole [00:17:41]: Like, I'm not disagreeing with you.

John [00:17:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:43]: But this is something you can handle in a different way. And I guess that's where it's confusing. It's like. And same with the things that you just mentioned. I'm not saying those aren't. But like I said before, there's so many ways to like analyze it and go about it in better ways.

John [00:18:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:01]: That. It's just really confusing why the lying is to that degree or the betrayal is to that degree. And I do feel like. I don't know. I feel like you have to know that you are completely, like, you're risking this. Like, yes, you want this right now.

John [00:18:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:18:21]: But what you're risking is like, catastrophic, for sure.

John [00:18:24]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:25]: But do people realize that when they're doing those things?

John [00:18:30]: Every person who smokes cigarettes, same thing. You see how I feel like they

Nicole [00:18:35]: don't realize how catastrophic, even though people tell them that, oh, you could get lung cancer and die, has a picture

John [00:18:40]: in Europe of, of. Of a person on a ventilator and their lung, you know, their black lungs or whatever. So people know. They know it.

Nicole [00:18:50]: So they don't care.

John [00:18:51]: It's just don't care in the moment. That's why people make bad choices. Right. It's just you can kind of lump it into bad choice, which comes down to the fact of the matter of. That you're going to have to face the consequences of your action at some point. So, I mean, it's, it's. It's. The root of. This is the same root of. Of delayed gratification. Right. It's. It's the same thing that, that controls all of those things. That's why I'm saying it, because as you're saying, like, I didn't think of this, but as you're saying it, I'm like, oh, well, I mean, it's the same thing as smoking. It's the same thing as all these, these bad things that we do. Like, why do we do those things? It's.

Nicole [00:19:28]: But not everybody does those things. And I guess that's my thing is, like, if he did. That's why I bring the character thing into question. Because if your character is. You're not going to smoke because you know that, how unhealthy it is, and you don't want to ever do that. You're not ever going to even try it.

John [00:19:45]: Right?

Nicole [00:19:46]: You, like, yes, everybody lies. So you might lie about something, but you're not going to cheat on your partner. You're not going to go and hang out with someone behind their back. You're not going to do these, like, huge things of lying or even little ones that might snowball where now, like you said, you have to keep up with the story and, like, who did you tell what?

John [00:20:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:08]: I think that comes from your character, though, because there are plenty of people out there who never cheat and never really would cheat like they would probably, if in a similar situation, handle it differently.

John [00:20:20]: Right. It's principles that you have. Right. But it's like. It's vices. Right. We all have vices sometimes we can get rid of vices we don't have to have. But it's different vices. Right. It's a vice like any other vice. Right. Which has got you trapped. That's why a vice, you know, it holds things.

Nicole [00:20:39]: Addiction.

John [00:20:41]: Yeah. It makes you trapped. Like a vice is a bad habit. Essentially something that you're doing that. That's giving you that you know is bad.

Nicole [00:20:48]: Dopamine.

John [00:20:49]: Yeah. And you know it's bad, and you know it's not good for you, but you do it. Right. Like, you know. And so I think that's what it comes down to is just recognizing it's a vice. But I think the more important thing here, because you're hitting on, like, the principles and character, which is true. Right. Is that this particular vice of lying, what does it do to you? Well, the biggest thing in relationship is that it destroys intimacy. Because in order to be intimate, you have to be vulnerable, which means that you have to have trust, which means you have to be truthful.

Nicole [00:21:22]: So you have to be open and.

John [00:21:24]: Yeah. And it destroys it on one end and then the other end. So if you're holding something, a lie, then you can't be.

Nicole [00:21:34]: You can't invest.

John [00:21:35]: Yeah. You can't have the intimacy. Like, the other person might still be fine while they don't know. And they can invest and they can. Obviously, if you're not investing, it's going to destroy intimacy to a degree. But. But they're. Okay. But when they do find out, then it destroys it on their side as well.

Nicole [00:21:50]: Right.

John [00:21:51]: And so I think that's the thing about it, is that if you're trying to. Yeah. You're going to have vices in life. Right. Maybe you have some vices, some addictions, some things that are bad habits, whatever that you haven't overcome. Obviously you should overcome them. But this particular one will destroy your relationship and make it so you can't have a depth of relationship with the intimacy that you'd like to have, because it puts something between you. And I think that's the key thing. And then also, like you said, on the character and principle side of things, you're gonna be sacrificing your principle, your character. I know when I was in that situation. Right. Which again, sometimes it might sound like I'm justifying. I'm not justifying at all. I'm with you 100% on the not lying, but I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who had got themselves into that kind of situation. It's not a good place to be. You feel like you have compromised your character, you have compromised your principles. It's hard to hold someone to any kind of standard when you're not holding yourself to that standard. Maybe I was holding myself to standards in other areas, but I couldn't be fully transparent, which is something I don't enjoy, because I like to be fully transparent. That is how I generally live my life. And so it made it so that a lot of relationships had to be surface level. Because if you're not really telling the truth to someone, how deep can you be?

Nicole [00:23:18]: Right.

John [00:23:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:19]: Yeah. Well, no, I appreciate. I don't want you to think I'm beating up on you.

John [00:23:23]: No, I don't feel that at all. You're just a hot stove.

Nicole [00:23:25]: I'm a hot stove. But I appreciate you talking about your perspective because I know it's not easy to talk about. And I do understand, like, rocky situations or certain situations that do push people to act outside of their character. It's not an excus. Excuse.

John [00:23:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:41]: But I get where you, like, lose your own character. And so then you are behaving in a way that you normally wouldn't behave. So I understand that as well too. But I do understand most what you actually brought up, which is a thousand percent. It is that it's the discipline of acting out of your character. It doesn't matter what happens. You never act out of your character. Because just like the smoking thing, I have the discipline that no matter if every person in this world asks me to smoke a cigarette, I don't want to do that. Like, that's. I. I don't want to do that. So I'm not going to do that. It doesn't matter if someone gives me a million dollars. I don't want to do that.

John [00:24:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:24]: And some people might be like, what? You wouldn't smoke one cigarette for a million dollars? Probably not. Honestly.

John [00:24:29]: Okay.

Nicole [00:24:30]: Because it's part of my principles, part of my character. It's part of how I have viewed myself and how I want to continue to view myself. And if I did that for a million dollars, one I would have done something that I didn't want to do.

John [00:24:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:46]: And then sold my soul for a million dollars. You know what I mean?

John [00:24:49]: Like, that's true.

Nicole [00:24:50]: That's also not part of my principle. Like, I also can't be Bought. So that's also why people might be like, well, why wouldn't you do it for a million dollars? There's just one cigarette. It's not going to give you lung cancer. It's the full principle of it. And I guess that is the thing that I wanted to bring up in this episode before we talk about, like, what to say and what not to say.

John [00:25:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:11]: Is that because I do think that people need to live from that place. Like, and I'm not saying it as, like, live like me. I'm doing it. Right. But I think if you really realize that you have to have the discipline, right. To be the person that you want to be, because otherwise you can blame it on whatever. Well. Well, I was young when I started smoking cigarettes and everyone else was doing it and I wanted to look cool or like, you know, well, I had a really crappy relationship and my secretary was, like, giving me praises, so I hooked up with her. Like, that's. You're giving all your responsibility away to other people. You're blaming other people. You're. You're like, you're lowering yourself, Right. You're lowering yourself down.

John [00:25:49]: Right. And. And, yeah. And you're sacrificing your principles. Like, you can't.

Nicole [00:25:53]: Right.

John [00:25:53]: And even just if you think about it, right. Like, I mean, I'm actually a man of principles. Right. That's a lot. But I do have a black mark that I can never get rid of if I want to be a man of principles. In saying that I did lie before. I was living a double life. And so I've created a consequence for myself that can't be erased. Yeah. I'm not that same person. I live by my principles today. But someone can always say, yeah, but you didn't there, did you?

Nicole [00:26:24]: Right, Right.

John [00:26:25]: Like, they can always say that that will never be able to be undone. So that's a consequence. Like, there's permanent consequences.

Nicole [00:26:31]: That's why I'm saying, like, that's why I brought all this up is like, yeah. I feel like people who are on the precipice of making a decision, like cheating or a big lie that could ruin their relationship, they really need to realize because it's not an excuse to be like, well, they just want it now. Like, I think if they really realized what the end result is going to be, yeah. They would never have done it.

John [00:26:57]: And also, like, again, looking back in retrospect, right. If you just take your lumps at the beginning, whatever it is, the hard truth, and you just talk about it instead of Lying, then you can be free. If you don't, you can do what you want. But in the prison cell, right? Because when, for my life, I had to sneak around, I had to hold all. Like, I couldn't. I wasn't free in any way. Right. If I would have made different choices and said, okay, I'm gonna exit this relationship and be done with this and not lie, then I could have been free, actually free to actually do what I wanted to do the way I wanted to do it, without having a conscious weighing on me and having to watch what I said and where I was at and all of these things. It's. You see what I'm saying? Like, it's. It's not being free.

Nicole [00:27:50]: Right.

John [00:27:51]: So if you want to be with someone else, then just face the truth, and then you can do it. And then you don't have to sneak around and feel like you're gonna get caught or be in trouble or you're doing the wrong thing. You know, like, those are the things that you don't think about in that situation. Again, I don't want to make excuses, and I also don't want to make light. Right. It wasn't like I just lightly entered into this double life. There were some serious reasons why I had done it. Those reasons don't justify. It would have still been better, in retrospect to just be truthful and deal with those situations. But I'm trying to walk the line so that it's not one way or the other.

Nicole [00:28:32]: Yeah. No, I understand. Well, I understand where you're coming from. But the thing is that I feel like this is so important.

John [00:28:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:39]: Because I hope that even one person that is contemplating making one of these decisions hears something like this.

John [00:28:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:47]: And decides to do the right thing.

John [00:28:50]: For sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:51]: And that could look like anything. It could look like having a conversation and trying to repair the relationship. It could have the hard conversation and end the relationship. But. And we're talking about cheating because that is, like, a big thing with the lying. But, like, we talked about even small things.

John [00:29:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:08]: Can add up over time or even something like telling your partner you're one place and then you're somewhere else. Like, yes, that's not like cheating, but it is a wave of life eroding the trust.

John [00:29:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:26]: Like, it's starting to erode it.

John [00:29:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:28]: And eventually, if you get enough of those.

John [00:29:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:31]: There's no more trust there. It's gone.

John [00:29:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:34]: And so you might think, oh, well, it's not that big of a deal. But even little things like that. Like, obviously we were talking about cheating, which is a big thing, but even little things that you're hiding from your partner and lying about will eventually erode your trust.

John [00:29:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:49]: And yes, trust can be built back. However, it's not a guarantee.

John [00:29:55]: Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:56]: And you don't know how long.

John [00:29:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:58]: And like, yes, there may come a time where you have a conversation like, you need to forgive this or not, after you felt like it's been dealt with long enough. But at the same time, that person has a choice whether to leave or to not. So you could still lose your relationship from these little things that you think aren't that big of a deal.

John [00:30:15]: Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:17]: And. And honestly, I hate that phrase too. It's not that big of a deal. Like, I hate when people lie and they're like, it's not that big of a deal.

John [00:30:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:25]: Because that's you deciding what's a big deal. Like, it's allowed to be a big deal to them. You like saying you're going to the grocery store and you go to, like, your ex girlfriend's house is a big deal.

John [00:30:35]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:30:37]: And if you're like, it was not a big deal. Like, I just had to get something. I had to get my old sweatshirt from her house.

John [00:30:43]: Right. Then why did you lie about it?

Nicole [00:30:45]: Right. Exactly.

John [00:30:46]: It must have been a big deal.

Nicole [00:30:47]: Right.

John [00:30:48]: Big enough deal to lie about. So.

Nicole [00:30:49]: Right. But if you come from the place of principles.

John [00:30:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:53]: And again, I'm not saying that people are never gonna lie.

John [00:30:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:56]: And we're gonna get more into, like, what people might think of as lying or, like, what you should say and you shouldn't say. And people might think of these things that you shouldn't say as lying.

John [00:31:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:07]: But it is different. And we'll talk more about that. But if you come from a place of principles and who you want to be.

John [00:31:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:15]: And honestly, who you want to be with, I feel like helps too. Like, I try to be the type of person that I would also want to be with.

John [00:31:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:25]: You know what I mean? Like, I try to have the standards for myself that I would also want for my partner. Now I can only control what I do. And I am going to be the highest version of myself that I can possibly be, regardless of what my partner's doing. But I do act in a way where I want to hold myself to the same standards that I would like my partner to be as well. Like, I'm not gonna be like, you can't smoke, but I'm gonna smoke. Right you know what I mean? Like, I don't want a partner that smokes, but I smoke.

John [00:31:54]: Right?

Nicole [00:31:54]: Like, that's not. That's not how it is.

John [00:31:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:57]: The thing is, like, I'm gonna not smoke no matter what.

John [00:32:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:01]: And when I met you, you did smoke.

John [00:32:02]: Yeah, well, occasionally. Like, it wasn't occasionally occasionally, but casual.

Nicole [00:32:07]: I was like. And I wasn't trying to control you, but I was like, I don't really like kissing someone that smokes. And that, again, like, people might be like, that is controlling, but honestly, that you could have left. You could have left.

John [00:32:21]: I mean, made that big of a deal choice, too, right? It was like, right. You're like, okay, so, I mean, I can brush my teeth and take a shower and all, like, every time I want to kiss you, or I can just not smoke in the first place, or. And then it just became a thing where I was like, okay, I don't even, like. Well, for me, it wasn't even. I didn't feel controlled or forced. I could have casually smoked, continued to do that. But, I mean, you would have had a problem if I was, like, Became a smoker. Smoker for sure.

Nicole [00:32:51]: Yeah. Or if you lied about it, you know?

John [00:32:53]: Yeah. But I think for me, I just got to a point where I'm like, okay, like, is this. Which is more important to me? Is it that occasionally I get to have a cigarette or that Nicole doesn't like this? Right. And I was like, nicole doesn't. Like, this is more important to me than occasionally I get to have a cigarette. So, like, why not just do it 100%, don't do it. Plus, it's good for you. I mean, having cigarette every once in a while is not gonna cause you much harm. But the point was that I just made the choice in my head. I was like, okay, I'd rather. I feel like that's more important, and I can show that that's more important for me. I would do it occasionally. I'd be fine with that. But even me doing it occasionally, it still disturbs you in some way. So I'm like, okay, is that worth it to me? You know? Which is if you're like, I don't like that you go to the gym and work out, then I'd be like, okay, well, you're gonna have to not like that because.

Nicole [00:33:51]: Yeah, exactly.

John [00:33:53]: That's more important. You know what I'm saying? That's a different thing.

Nicole [00:33:56]: Well, and I never told you, you can't. Like, I would like it if you stopped smoking.

John [00:34:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:02]: But I never told you, like, you can't do this. I was just like, I don't enjoy kissing you when you smell and taste like smoke or whatever. And that's not just you. It'd be anybody.

John [00:34:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:13]: But you also had the opportunity at any point to say if you wanted to break up with me because I told you that that was your choice.

John [00:34:22]: Sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:23]: I would be like, whoa, what the heck? But it. You always had the choice. But I'm just bringing this up because it's like, I. I'm not saying that I force you to hold my standards.

John [00:34:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:34]: But at the same time, I had a standard. And I also felt a certain way about being involved with some of that as well, too, which I am allowed to do. And you are allowed to make your own choice as well, too. So, like, if you did break up with me, I would be like, okay, well, not smoking is that important.

John [00:34:54]: But now look at it. I don't smoke. I don't drink. I don't cheat. I don't lie. I don't even drink caffeine.

Nicole [00:35:01]: I've ruined your life.

John [00:35:02]: No caffeine.

Nicole [00:35:03]: I've ruined your life completely. What do you do for fun? That's what everyone's thinking right now. He builds things on it.

John [00:35:12]: Open claw.

Nicole [00:35:14]: But no, I'm just saying, though, that you should hold yourself to the standards that of you want that the things that you want in a partner as well. Yeah, you should definitely do. But having that standard, I think will prevent you from lying or hiding things. Because like you said, how can you have a deep, true, intimate, loving relationship.

John [00:35:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:37]: When you're lying.

John [00:35:39]: Yeah. Now, with that said, it's a good segue into. That doesn't mean you should reveal everything

Nicole [00:35:45]: that's in your partner.

John [00:35:47]: There are some things that you should keep from your partner and some things that you shouldn't, it seems like. And the things that. I would say that, because sometimes people take this and they're like, oh, I should just tell them the truth about everything. And yes, you shouldn't try to deceive your partner, but you don't have to say everything that's in your brain because you have a lot of stupid stuff that comes into your brain and then it disappears. The stuff that stays in your brain needs to be dealt with and revealed and talked about in the relationship. But some of the stupid stuff that comes into your head doesn't need to be immediately revealed. That's not deceptive. It's not telling the truth. It's just being smart about it. Right. So Good examples are things that will just hurt your partner and do no good. Right? So let's say that you have some thoughts about, maybe this isn't the person for me. If you have some occasional thoughts about that, there's no need to share that with your partner. You should not tell your partner, maybe you're not the person for me. Right. You're married. You're in whatever long term relationship that's not. Now, if this is something that is pervasive, that you're really considering this, even then, I would say at the point where you're ready to break up with them, then you can say that. But even then, you probably don't even need to say that. You can probably just say, I don't want to be in this relationship. You don't need to tell them that you, you think that they're not. Whatever, you know, something that's going to be hurtful to them, but that could

Nicole [00:37:12]: also be an emotional response that isn't even true.

John [00:37:17]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:37:17]: That's why, honestly. So like you're, you might genuinely be like, no, I thought of that and I do feel like it's true, so I should say it. No, you honestly, if that comes into your head and you're like, I feel this way. Like, this is what I'm feeling.

John [00:37:34]: This is my truth.

Nicole [00:37:36]: Right.

John [00:37:36]: Like, it's not.

Nicole [00:37:37]: You think of the thought and you're like, okay, I do feel this way. You have to analyze that. Why do I feel this way?

John [00:37:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:44]: Because a lot of times, again, I'm going back to like avoidant people or things like that because they are more likely to be like, oh, we're arguing, this person's not for me. And then like, leave or whatever, like, blow up the relationship like that. You have to be like, am I thinking this because they hurt me? Like they touched on something that hurt me and I just don't want to feel this hurt because that's most of the time, right. Where that's coming from. Or they're bringing up something in me that I don't like to face. And so I want to run away. And so in order to run away, my brain is like, this isn't the right relationship. Because you have to be honest again. Like, because early on in our relationship when I was still dealing with a lot of like my own avoidance stuff.

John [00:38:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:28]: When we would get in like a conflict and you seemed really mad with me, in my own head, I'd be like, like, maybe he doesn't love me, like, as much as I thought he did. And Maybe this isn't like really. Right. Like even though I know that it is, but maybe it's not. But then I would never say that because I know it wasn't true.

John [00:38:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:38:48]: Even if it popped into my head, I'd be like, this is just me not being able to handle having a hard conversation because I never did it before, right?

John [00:38:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:57]: But I would never say that to you because I know that that's not true.

John [00:39:00]: Right. L will do serve to hurt me would. Would not help.

Nicole [00:39:04]: Right. And I. Even in a conflict and even when you're like making me feel things that I don't want to feel, I don't want to hurt you, cuz I do love you and I do feel like you're the person that I want to be with. But just cuz your brain pops up something. Just because you get a pop up in your brain, right. Doesn't mean that it's true. And it doesn't. And even though you might be like, oh, I do feel this way. Yeah, that doesn't mean that it's true.

John [00:39:28]: Exactly. Yeah, no, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it, is that it is actually not the truth even, right?

Nicole [00:39:33]: Exactly. It's just like a pain point. It's just you trying to escape the thing or it might be you trying to avoid having the conversation. You know what I mean? Like a lot of times we don't know how to deal with a lot of this stuff. And I bring up the attachment styles because I'm sure there's an anxious thing that happens as well too. Like maybe they go like they're gonna abandon me, they're gonna abandon me when the person's not gonna abandon them or something, you know, like they could also blow it up that way. But I bring this up because a lot of people just throw these things around and even if it pops up in your brain right, where people are like, oh, it popped up there, that means it's true.

John [00:40:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:13]: And I feel this way, like I have a feeling that this is kind of true.

John [00:40:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:16]: So it must be true. That's not true.

John [00:40:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:20]: Like you'll know when it's true because like you said, you'll be like, okay, I'm ready to exit the relationship. Or I thought about this so much and like, even after we resolve the conflict, I still don't want. I don't know if this person's for me.

John [00:40:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:31]: Like if you have those thoughts, not in a tough conversation, if you have those thoughts when things are good Right. Then you probably mean it, but not when they're bad.

John [00:40:42]: Well, those are.

Nicole [00:40:43]: You can't trust it.

John [00:40:43]: Yeah, they're interpretations. The feelings are true. The interpretations are not true.

Nicole [00:40:48]: Right, right.

John [00:40:49]: They're just interpretations.

Nicole [00:40:50]: So go back to our last episode to learn more about that because that's where the resentment comes from too.

John [00:40:55]: Yeah. Because you don't need to tell your partner all of your interpretations. It's good to tell the feelings that you're having or the vulnerability behind them, but not the interpretation of what that. That means. Or even things like, you know, if you're watching a TV program and you find someone attractive, you don't. Shouldn't probably. You don't need to tell your partner that. Like, those are things that you just need to not like, you know, you need to realize that you're supposed to be attracted to your partner and not to other people. You know what I'm saying? Like, it wouldn't make sense to do things that are just going to cause problems and they're not going to, you know, that's not. Being truthful is like saying every, every single thought that's in your head. I think that's. That's where. Where people go wrong with it. But, but like the things, like we said in the other episode too, that that would lead to resentment are things that have to be talked about. So those things you do have to, like, you don't just say, oh, this is just something that's going in my head. I'll just deal with this myself. If it's. If you're saying I have to deal with this myself, then that's also something that should be talked about, you know, that should be revealed. Again, not the interpretation of what that means, but what is the feeling behind it or the problem that you have so that you're being transparent in that way. So I think that's. It's just a matter of thinking about, okay, is this information that I'm considering revealing is not revealing it deceptive? Is the purpose of lie a lie? Exactly. Which is. Yeah. A deceit. Right. And then if it is, if it's deceptive, then you should reveal it. Right. Like, no matter what it is, if the purpose is to deceive. Right. And then it comes down to, is this beneficial or not? Right. Because if it's not beneficial, then there's no need to say the thing. Right.

Nicole [00:42:53]: If you're like, when you leave the toilet seat up, it pisses me off. What is that you haven't actually done? Instead, if you had that sort of feeling like when you see the toilet seat up, you're pissed off.

John [00:43:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:04]: You can instead be like, why does this make me mad?

John [00:43:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:08]: Oh, it makes me feel like my partner doesn't consider me. Right. Because he doesn't put it down. Then you can, after you've analyzed, you can be like, hey, like, this might seem like a little thing, but when you leave the toilet seat up, it makes me feel like you're not considering me and it hurts my feelings. That's a lot different than when you leave the toilet seat up. It pisses me off.

John [00:43:29]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:43:29]: Or piss me off or whatever. Like it's all your fault.

John [00:43:33]: Can you leave. Put. Not leave the toilet seat up. That's all like, right?

Nicole [00:43:36]: Or you can. Yeah. That's even more simple.

John [00:43:39]: Yeah. It just. It doesn't. You don't have to express the fact that you got pissed off about it because then it doesn't serve any purpose.

Nicole [00:43:46]: John never leaves the toilet seat up.

John [00:43:48]: No, I don't.

Nicole [00:43:49]: He's very considerate, the most consistent.

John [00:43:52]: But I think that's just an important distinction, is to know what things that you know. Because otherwise people become too much talking about every single thing that goes on. And it's like there's some things you have to keep. And I think also as a man, too. Right. I think this is super critical, is that as a man, as the leader, you don't need to tell your woman every single doubt or fear that you have. Right. You should operate with conviction even when you have doubt.

Nicole [00:44:29]: Yeah.

John [00:44:29]: Because that inspires. That inspires someone to follow you or to trust you. It's. It hurts trust. Because as a man. Right. I don't always have it figured out. I don't always. Sometimes I'm afraid you don't always have it figured out. Sometimes I'm not sure what to do in this situation. Situation. Sometimes I have doubts about our insecurities and things like that that I don't know. But I'm going to present a front that I got this handled and I'll take care of it now. Yeah. Sometimes if there's things that I need to talk about or talk through, I'm going to talk through them. But the thing is that as a man, you have to be careful to make sure that. That you're not undermining your own leadership and making it where people aren't going to trust you because everyone has some degree of crazy thoughts that are in their head and paranoia and all these things. And so you don't need to reveal that all the Time you can talk to your guy friends and say whatever you need to say about some situation you're dealing with that you're not confident in and you're not sure if you can handle this or whatever it is, or you have fears or doubt about that stuff. Not to say that you couldn't ever talk to your wife about some of those things, but what I'm saying is that in general, you don't, you want to shield her from all of that, your insecurities and doubts and fears about decisions that you're making so that she can have trust and be like, okay, I know that he's going to figure it out. Obviously she knows that you have some of these things. But if you talk about all those things because you have to be truthful and reveal them all, you're just going to overwhelm her. And especially when you're, when you're in the process of making decision, it's going to make you seem unstable because you're going back and forth because that is the process of making decision. Right. When I'm thinking about something in my head, I'm like, okay, maybe this and maybe that, maybe this, maybe that. And then I finally come to a conclusion and then that's what I talk about. But if every single step of the way, I'm like, oh, and then we're

Nicole [00:46:35]: going to go here for vacation. No, let's go here. No. What about here? Oh, I booked this. Oh, no, I canceled that. And then I booked here. Yeah, exactly. It's like, well, where, where the heck are we going?

John [00:46:43]: Yeah, and I think that's important to, to understand it isn't. Because I think a lot of guys get that wrong. And then they're like, they appear to be unstable.

Nicole [00:46:50]: Yeah.

John [00:46:50]: Whereas it's like you have to remember as a leader, just like if you're leading an army, if you, if you were in an army and you're going to war and you trusted someone to be leading you into war, you really would want that person to figure their shit out and to be confident. At least pretend like they know what they're doing. You know what I'm saying? Like again, not, not, not, not where they're pretending, where they don't know what they're doing at all, but where you don't, you don't want to see every, every fear and doubt that they have in their decision making process. What you want is the end result where they say, okay, this is the plan and this is what we're going to do. Yeah, right. That's that's a better way. Otherwise, if you. If you. If they told you every single fear or doubt that they have about their plan or maybe it's not going to work, you would not feel like this. Someone to. To lead you into battle. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:47:40]: So I will say too, on that, like, you're good about doing this, but if you're confident and even when you're not confident.

John [00:47:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:49]: And you don't own up to when you're wrong.

John [00:47:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:52]: She'll still lose confidence in you.

John [00:47:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:55]: Because a lot of guys will make a decision and they'll be wrong, and then they'll try to brush off when they're wrong, and then they'll do it again and again. Like, they'll never own up to when they were wrong. And so then a woman begins to not be able to trust you even when you're right. Because the times you've been wrong, you just brush it under the rug.

John [00:48:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:21]: And it's not addressed because the thing is, like, again, and that's not lying, but it's also not being fully open and transparent.

John [00:48:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:32]: You know what I mean? Like, you should be open enough with your partner that you do feel like you can tell them when you made a mistake or something bad happened or whatever. Like, again, you don't have to tell them everything that pops into your head. I agree with that. And I don't think that it's like lying to them or being deceitful. It depends on what it is. I mean, if something pops into your head and it's like, I don't know, you find somebody attractive. Like, now, if you started acting on that or something, or if you started, like, following the actress on Instagram or whatever, that's a problem.

John [00:49:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:10]: But, like, most people should be able to have a thought come up and know how to handle it.

John [00:49:15]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:16]: And it depends on how you handle it. Which, again, goes back to your character. Right. Like, any thought can pop up if you're just spewing it out, or you're just like, you know, and you don't care that it hurts your partner because you want to be totally transparent. That doesn't mean that you didn't hurt your partner.

John [00:49:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:35]: Like, you have to know how to control your mind in the sense of, like, things are going to pop up that you can't control, but you can control how you say them to your partner.

John [00:49:45]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:49:46]: You can control if you act on them.

John [00:49:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:48]: You can control those things, but you can't control what pops into Your head. Sometimes it pops into my head. I'm like, what if I fell right now and knocked out all my teeth? I don't control that. It just pops into my head. And then I'm like, that was weird. And then I move on. But I'm not, like, guarding my teeth all day. I don't know. I might be, like, a little bit more cautious where I've stepped, but you know what I mean? Like, you can't control what random things are gonna pop into your head.

John [00:50:12]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:50:13]: But you can control what you do with them and how you tell them to your partner and things like that. Like, that's what matters the most. And again, I feel like it still kind of goes back to your character and the discipline that you have, because it's like, I don't ever want to say anything to you. I'm not saying that. I've never said anything to you that hurt your feelings.

John [00:50:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:50:32]: But I never want to do that. That's never my intention. That doesn't mean it's never happened. Yeah, but I would never, like, just be like, let me attack John right now. Or, like, if I, like, the toilet seat thing, I would never be like, let me attack John for leaving the toilet seat up. You know what I mean?

John [00:50:48]: I think it comes down to kind of the golden rule is, like, would I want to know this information if it were me? Right? Like, that's.

Nicole [00:50:59]: That's.

John [00:50:59]: I think that's a good way of looking at it. Right? Because if it's something. If you're like, I don't really want to know if you think I'm an idiot right now. Like, I don't want to know that. You know, Like. Like. Like, if you have some kind of random angry thought or something like that, like, damn, John's being an idiot or whatever. Like, I don't want to know that. Like, I don't. I don't need to know that. You know, I know you're happy with that, but I'm just. I'm using that as an example. Right. Like, but I do want to know if I don't know you. You went to the grocery store. You said you're going to the grocery store, but you really went to the bar. Like, I want to know that information. You know what I'm saying? Like, so I think that's a good guideline to think about. You know what. What information would you want to know?

Nicole [00:51:44]: Yeah. But you can also train your brain, because you even being like, I don't want to know that you think John's an idiot.

John [00:51:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:51]: I would never. And I would never think. You never think that, but I would maybe think, like, I don't agree with this, but that's not the same thing. You know what I mean? And I think that again, it kind of goes back to the last episode with the resentment. Is that the way you talk to yourself?

John [00:52:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:09]: Influences how you talk to people.

John [00:52:11]: Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:12]: So, like, I mean, I'm not saying that I would never actually, I don't know if I've ever called myself an idiot, but I'd be like, that probably wasn't the smartest thing. You know what I mean? But, like, I would never want to use those words at you. So they don't even come into my mind.

John [00:52:24]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:52:25]: Like, there's never going to be, like, an intrusive thought that's, like, really mean to you because I don't view you in that way. I don't ever want to treat you that way. That doesn't mean that I've never, like, hurt your feelings or you might have think I'm being mean, but I've never thought something mean of, like, John's such a stupid idiot right now or whatever. Like, I've never thought that.

John [00:52:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:48]: Because I. I don't, like, view you in that way. Yeah. And I hold my. Again, I hold myself to the standard of, like, I'm not going to talk about you that way.

John [00:52:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:58]: That's not to say that I agree with everything that you said, or I might not be like, that probably wasn't the smartest decision, but that's how I would view. I would. How I would phrase it. Like, that probably wasn't the smartest decision.

John [00:53:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:08]: That's way different.

John [00:53:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:10]: Than calling someone an idiot.

John [00:53:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:12]: You know what I mean? And like, people are probably like, this is so nitpicky. And like. No, but a lot of people throw around these things and they don't care. These words. They don't care. Yeah, but you should care. You should care how you talk about your partner and yourself and, like, how you label things. Because you might think that these words don't matter. But they do matter.

John [00:53:32]: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. All of our internal thoughts are composed of words.

Nicole [00:53:36]: Yeah.

John [00:53:37]: And so what vocabulary we use makes a huge difference. For sure. So for sure.

Nicole [00:53:42]: But again, like, we're not sitting here being like, don't tell your partner these things because we just sat here and told you, don't lie to your partner.

John [00:53:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:51]: Don't be deceitful. Like, don't.

John [00:53:54]: But you know yeah.

Nicole [00:53:56]: You know, what's a lie and what's like would just be mean and hurtful and is an intrusive thought.

John [00:54:01]: Right. Yeah. You know, when the information you know is being. Is withholding information causes harm or could cause future harm. Right. Versus. Versus Some things that don't need to be said. You know, you can, you can tell what the difference is. And again, like I said, I think the biggest metric is like, if you were in the other situation, would you want to know this information? Would you be hurt by not knowing this information? And if it passes that test, then sure. But if it doesn't pass that test, then it's probably something that you should discuss and talk about. But ultimately it's better to err on the side of being revealing, being as transparent and open as you possibly can. You got to deal with their own thoughts in your head, especially the ones that are random. Yeah. But ultimately being transparent as possible is, Is always. It's the best way to operate in life in general.

Nicole [00:55:03]: Right. But especially with your partner.

John [00:55:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:06]: And especially if you're married.

John [00:55:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:08]: You're too becoming one.

John [00:55:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:10]: But I mean, society does teach people, you know, like. Oh, like you don't have to tell your partner everything or you don't. They don't have to be everything to you or, you know, you live your own life and they live their own life.

John [00:55:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:22]: Like, that's not how it should be.

John [00:55:25]: No, no.

Nicole [00:55:26]: Like. And I think people feel like when they give up their freedom or their independence that they won't be as happy. But I think if they listen to this and they did what we said.

John [00:55:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:38]: You'd feel more free, you'd feel more yourself being able to be open and honest and know that you're not going to hide things from your partner and you're not going to lie to your partner than you would even being on your own.

John [00:55:50]: Yeah. Well. And I think sometimes too, we forget that. That when, when you. Well, okay, let's put it this way. It's way better to tell the truth than to be caught in a lie.

Nicole [00:56:04]: Yeah.

John [00:56:04]: Most people will. They're not. There's not necessarily going to be happy, but there'll be a lot. There'll be a lot worse consequences if you get caught in the lie than if you came forward and said what you did or told the truth about a thing rather than lying about it or even about that. I lied to say that versus getting caught in the lie. So it's something to think about is it's better to have it be something that you, if you're afraid of the consequences. And I think one thing we didn't cover was that a lot of the reasons why men lie a lot of times is because they are trying to not hurt someone, but in reality they hurt them more.

Nicole [00:56:45]: Yeah, that's what I. Why do they not realize that?

John [00:56:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:49]: Why do they not realize that they hurt people even more when they lie?

John [00:56:53]: Yeah. Well, because, like I said, is because if the lie never gets found out, then you know what, what, what someone doesn't know can hurt them. Right?

Nicole [00:57:03]: Yeah, but you can't count on that. Like, that's not solid.

John [00:57:06]: Yeah. You're playing, you're playing a risk.

Nicole [00:57:08]: You're taking a risk that's not guaranteed.

John [00:57:10]: You're gambling with them. Right. You know, like. Yeah, so I agree, but that's why,

Nicole [00:57:14]: I guess it doesn't make sense to me. And the only thing that would make sense right here, and it's going to sound shitty, but I think it is kind of shitty, is if a man doesn't want to hurt you right now, but he doesn't mind hurting you later because he'll be more detached from you and he won't care.

John [00:57:32]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:57:34]: That's the only thing that makes sense because I do not believe that men genuinely think that lying will not hurt the person and that they lie to not hurt the person only to end up delaying that and making it worse.

John [00:57:47]: I think a lot of people, though, that do lie, do believe that, that it'll never get found out.

Nicole [00:57:52]: But that's not like, okay, look, men love statistics. There's a risk factor statistically possible to get away. Like it's not the majority statistically that you're going to get away with a lie.

John [00:58:04]: Right. But people buy a lot of.

Nicole [00:58:05]: It's probably like 10%.

John [00:58:07]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:58:07]: But here's the, the thing. Yes, people buy lottery tickets, but if men don't want to get married because of a statistic that is more favorable, then will you get away with lying or not?

John [00:58:18]: Yeah. Probably not a good gamble. Like you're gambling with someone else. That's what I said.

Nicole [00:58:22]: Like. Yeah, yeah, back your statistics up. Like, if you want to do the statistics for the marriage thing, do the statistics for everything. Like you can't pick and choose. Can't cherry pick your statistics.

John [00:58:33]: I don't want to make it sound like women don't lie either because there's no.

Nicole [00:58:35]: They do.

John [00:58:36]: It's easy for different reasons.

Nicole [00:58:38]: It pisses women off. It pisses women off when women lie.

John [00:58:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:41]: Because it's like, you know.

John [00:58:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:58:46]: Like, you know what lying has done to you.

John [00:58:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:51]: Honestly. Because I don't even know any woman in my life besides maybe our daughter who hasn't been cheated on.

John [00:58:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:59]: Which is a lie.

John [00:59:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:00]: Like, so you know what it feels like.

John [00:59:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:03]: To be lied to, to be betrayed like that. And now you're gonna go and do it.

John [00:59:07]: Right. Yeah. True. Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:09]: So honestly, women that lie piss other women off.

John [00:59:13]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:15]: Honestly.

John [00:59:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:16]: So I'm not saying that women don't do it either, but women are also mad at those women. We're not. We're not claiming them as well either. We're not backing them up. We're not, like, yeah, we'll cover for her. And any woman that would cover for a woman that's cheating would cheat. Like, would lie.

John [00:59:32]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:59:33]: And so. And is comfortable with that. So keep that in mind. But most women feel the way that I'm telling you right now.

John [00:59:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:42]: I can't speak for all women, but most women feel this way because most women don't understand why men cheat. They want to know these questions. Right. Like, they don't understand how men can be like, I don't want to hurt you. Let me hurt you 10 million times worse.

John [00:59:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:56]: And like, destroy your self esteem and all these other things. Like, but that's why this is important, because if we talk about all this, I'm hoping that men will realize that, honestly, the kindest thing you can do for a woman that you don't want to be with is tell her the truth.

John [01:00:12]: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:13]: That's the kindest, Right. Nicest, best thing you can do.

John [01:00:17]: Right.

Nicole [01:00:18]: Cheating or like, going behind her back and like, seeing someone else or whatever, that will hurt her a million times more than you being like, I don't want to be with you.

John [01:00:28]: Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:30]: And so that's why I felt like this was important. And again, I felt like it's important because the little things also can add up.

John [01:00:38]: Yep.

Nicole [01:00:39]: To where even if you're not cheating, that you will break your relationship.

John [01:00:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:46]: You will either have to work 10 million times harder to get the trust back.

John [01:00:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:52]: All because you lied and it stacked up.

John [01:00:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:55]: Or you'll lose the relationship. And if that's not what you wanted, like, if you didn't want to lose the relationship, then why'd you lie to begin with? Right. Why weren't you open and honest with your partner?

John [01:01:06]: Just take the risk then. So.

Nicole [01:01:07]: Right, Exactly.

John [01:01:08]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a lower risk then. So there you go.

Nicole [01:01:13]: That's all I'm saying.

John [01:01:14]: All right, well, I think that's. That's it. And that's all, folks.

Nicole [01:01:20]: Well, I want to thank you again for being very, like, open and, like,

John [01:01:23]: like, I tried to be about transparent.

Nicole [01:01:25]: So a lot of this. Because I know that it's not.

John [01:01:28]: Not everyone has context, but it's fine. But.

Nicole [01:01:31]: Well, you can go listen to the episode about it.

John [01:01:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:01:34]: Pretty. It's like one of the first ones we did. But.

John [01:01:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:01:37]: But it is not easy to confront the things that do go against your character. And I do agree that this is not something that aligns with who you are.

John [01:01:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:01:46]: But that I believe a lot of men probably fall into the same thing that you fell into. And so you talking about this and, like, talking about the mark that is on you, even though you don't live from that place anymore, like, you. You're not that person.

John [01:02:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:02]: I think it's important for them to hear because they might think that risking it right now is worth it.

John [01:02:08]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:09]: But you have to live with this thing that you did.

John [01:02:12]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [01:02:13]: And, like, it shouldn't make you feel shame and, like, ruin your life.

John [01:02:17]: No.

Nicole [01:02:18]: Because I don't think people deserve that either.

John [01:02:20]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:21]: But at the same time, if you hold to your standards and have the discipline with yourself and do the hard thing right away, if that's what you need to do, you won't ever have to live with that.

John [01:02:34]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's important that people. And again, like I said, being transparent is important, so. Yeah, there's no need. Yeah, exactly. Like, I could not lie about my past, but I could hide it, which is deceiving, which is lying. You know what I'm saying? And then when we talk about the subject, I have to be like.

Nicole [01:03:01]: Like, yeah, horrible.

John [01:03:04]: No one should lie. Right. And then I'm in a prison again.

Nicole [01:03:08]: Right.

John [01:03:08]: You see, you're talking ever again. I don't want to have any kind of information I can't disclose that I'd be afraid to disclose. I. Afraid if someone saw this or, you know, like, because I just put it all out there.

Nicole [01:03:24]: Yeah.

John [01:03:24]: Or if they figured it out. You know what I'm saying? Like, just put it all out there. This is what happened. This is what I'm saying. Some people might be like, oh, well, he's. I don't like that guy. Okay. I'd rather you. I'd rather you not like me now. Then you find out at some point in the future, and then you're really not like me. It doesn't it doesn't matter. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [01:03:42]: Yeah. I mean, I admire people who own up to their mistakes way more than people who try to hide them.

John [01:03:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:47]: And we've all made mistakes.

John [01:03:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:50]: So if someone's upset with you because you're owning up to the things that you've done in the past, that's on them. Because they probably have things in their past that they can't confront that they're still hiding, and that's why they don't want to.

John [01:04:03]: It's better to be free. It's better to be free. And when you're not hiding anything, you're free.

Nicole [01:04:08]: That's true. True.

John [01:04:10]: All right, I think that's it for this episode, then. Yeah. You can follow us@betterthanperfectpod.com check out the website and send us an email if you have a question. Better than perfectpodcastmail.com like and subscribe.

Nicole [01:04:25]: Yeah, share.

John [01:04:26]: Yeah, share. Share this with a liar, John.

Nicole [01:04:33]: That might start a conversation.

John [01:04:36]: All right, we'll see you next week.

Nicole [01:04:37]: Bye.