Nicole [00:00:00]: You were stuck on that. That I wouldn't do what I needed to do to support you. And I was stuck on the fact that, like, it seemed like you wanted to put my mental health on the line in order to get what you wanted. I was willing to blow my whole life up to not go back there. It's not something I'm proud of, but it is how strongly I felt about the situation that I didn't want to go back into. It doesn't make it right, but it's not an excuse, but acted in ways that I'm not proud of at all because I was so afraid.

John [00:00:38]: Beyond the perfect we discovered through our flaws we complete each other Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:03]: That's right.

John [00:01:03]: All right.

Nicole [00:01:04]: And we're going to be talking about the imperfect part today.

John [00:01:07]: Yes. We got. Got into it a little bit. This. You know, normally we say not a little bit. Well, yeah, a little bit more than a little bit.

Nicole [00:01:14]: Yeah.

John [00:01:15]: But normally we save that for the end. But we figured we'd do an episode about this one since. Since there was a lot of things that came up, I think that's useful to talk about. So.

Nicole [00:01:27]: Yeah.

John [00:01:27]: Yeah. So where do we want to start?

Nicole [00:01:30]: I mean, I guess we'll talk about it. I mean, I don't think all the details are necessary just because. Not to, like, not be transparent, but it's just not relevant. And it could affect other people, not just us. So John was having a really hard time last week. Was it last week?

John [00:01:57]: The last week of the week before? I think it was last week.

Nicole [00:02:01]: I think it was last week.

John [00:02:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:04]: And we were at the gym and, you know, he was just really overwhelmed. And some things had happened while we were there that upset him even more. And then it was conflicting for me because I wanted to. To tell him the truth about how I felt about it, but then he didn't feel supported. And so, you know, I. I spoke my truth of how I felt about it, and then that hurt your feelings even more. And then, you know, we were talking a little bit about it, and then I offered somewhat of a solution, but not really a full solution to the problem. And so you still felt, you know, like I wasn't there for you. And then, you know, that just turned into a really big thing, which obviously, because it felt like a really big thing to you because you felt Like, I wasn't going to support you and be there for you when you were having a really hard time. And then I was conflicted because I wanted to tell you how I felt, but I also did want to be there for you. But in regards to the issue, it was just something that I didn't want to go back to because it was poorly affecting my mental stability. So it was a hard situation just in general. Because you were hurt.

John [00:03:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:49]: And then I was trying to, you know, protect myself from being in that bad mental state as well, too, because, I mean, you weren't in a good mental state when all this happened. And then, you know, when I'm thinking about it, if my mental state is bad and yours is bad.

John [00:04:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:11]: What do we have? Like, I can't support you, you can't support me. So, you know, not an excuse. But I was afraid to lose myself again. I was afraid to go back to a version of myself that I didn't want to go back to again. And so that's where I was coming from. But I can understand that it made you feel like I wasn't there to support you, and so you were stuck on that, that I wouldn't do what I needed to do to support you. And I was stuck on the fact that, like, it seemed like you wanted to put my mental health on the line in order to get what you wanted or like. Like the help that you wanted. You know what I mean? So it obviously became a really big thing because we were two people fighting for what we thought we believed in, you know, like, what we thought was right, and it wasn't as simple of a thing to come to an understanding of. And I acted in ways that I am definitely not proud of. I yelled at you, and I, you know, told you to leave and get out. And I was willing to blow my whole life up to not go back there. And it. It's not something I'm proud of, but is how strongly I felt about the situation that I didn't want to go back into.

John [00:05:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:52]: It doesn't make it right, but it. It just. It's not an excuse, but I acted in ways that I'm not proud of at all because I was so afraid.

John [00:06:11]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's. It's a little bit vague on the details, but. But I think I can add a little bit more without. Without getting too much into the details, which is that, I mean, I was having a very overwhelming, stressful time. And this involved, like, picking up our daughter from school and dropping her off. And I just. And I was struggling because I had a lot of stuff that was on me. And then I was under the impression that we could drop her off at my ex's house on the night before she had to go to school because it's a big drive to go there on Monday, and there's no reason to not do that. And then my ex had not been okay with that. And then I just kind of. That was the final straw of feeling like I'm already in a bad place, just mentally. And then so I was looking for some help, some volunteering of help to help me out of the situation that didn't come. And so I was very much feeling like, at my worst, when I'm at my lowest, if I can't count on getting help, you know, then, you know, what. What do I have? And. And it kind of came down to a couple of things which I think are useful to talk about. For me, it came down to the statement that I'm willing to do anything for you, and I do. And I do it with a smile on my face because doing something for you makes me happy. I never make you feel like it's an obligation or something that is hard for me to do, no matter what it is. And that is what I want as well. And I felt like that was not reciprocated. And so I made the statement of. Of that. Of, like, okay, you know, I. My relationship. Like, I want to be in a relationship where I would do. We would do anything for each other and do that happily for each other. And that's where I wasn't getting that confirmation of that. And that concerned me because to me, that's one of the most important things in a relationship, is to have that. And so. So. So anyway, you know, I mean, without getting into too many of the details of that, like that particular situation with. With parenting and step parenting.

Nicole [00:08:58]: Well, I think there does need to be a little bit more, because I'm not saying go fully into it, but there is more to that story and why that picking up caused that sort of reaction.

John [00:09:12]: Yeah, yeah, there is.

Nicole [00:09:13]: And there's no reason to talk about it here, but it's a disservice to me to act like that's all that it was based on, like, knowing what had happened before. Like, a lot of things have happened. I've not been treated very well. I know that I'm the adult, but that is why this was a problem. And I think that needs to be said because that's fair. It's not fair to just say that it was one thing and that's why it caused a severe reaction. And that's why I couldn't give you at the time what I thought was the answer because I was so afraid of mentally going through some of the things that I've gone through again. And I understand where you're coming from. And I understood where you're coming from. And that's why in the car I offered somewhat of a solution, even though I know isn't a full solution, because I do want to do it for you. But at the same time, the way that it was handled just made me feel like. Like, I guess my stance on it was like if I saw your emotional reaction and I knew what you had gone through, I wouldn't want you to have to go through that. And so that's what I was stuck on. And I know that you care about me and you wouldn't do that to me, but in the moment I was afraid that you would just put me back in that situation because that was my biggest fear is, was going back to that situation. And so that's where also the disconnect was, is that I just. I mean, we have a dog now that's like, yeah, needs help all the time. And you used to take her out all the time. And I appreciate that. But now I want to get up and do it so that you don't have to start your day dealing with the stuff.

John [00:11:16]: Yeah. But I'm willing to do it with a smile on my face.

Nicole [00:11:18]: I know that you are, but the thing. But that's. And I understand that, but I don't want you to do that.

John [00:11:24]: It doesn't matter if you want me to. I'm willing to. And that's what is, that's what you're missing. I understand that's important to me in that, but I.

Nicole [00:11:31]: But the thing is, I didn't want you to do that. Like I wanted to do that for you so you didn't have to worry

John [00:11:38]: about it, which is fine. But it doesn't change that other part of it.

Nicole [00:11:41]: I'm not saying that it does.

John [00:11:42]: I think we're. I mean, where it comes down to is kind of what we were talking about, you know, before is it comes down to the self protection. And that's really the heart of it. Because when you're in a relationship, you know, myself included, whoever, you know, if you choose to protect yourself, you're going to hurt the other person. And it is a violation of the intimacy and vulnerability to try to protect Yourself, you should trust your partner to protect you. And only if you do, then can you say, I would do anything for you, and I would do it with a smile on my face. Because you know that they're not going to put you in harm's way. They're going to, you know, and when two people are acting that way, thinking only about how they can provide and be better for the other person and not trying to protect themselves, then both people are protected better than they would be on their own. Because if I try to protect myself, then I have to create distance between us, because then I have to assume that you would do things that would not be in my interest and vice versa. And so you can only have a truly intimate relationship if you let down the guards, if you do not protect yourself in both parties, because that allows you to then actually be protected by the other person and to put your full trust in them. And I think that was the thing that was kind of the main contention that I had, that was missing. That was kind of the thing that we discovered right as we, we talked about this, was that it was something that you're still holding on to for good reason of the need to protect yourself, but something that, you know, you came to the conclusion to let go of. And I think that, you know, going through all that stuff and coming out with that conclusion makes it worth it.

Nicole [00:13:38]: And that's kind of the premise for this whole show.

John [00:13:42]: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is, like, because you have to, like, it wasn't comfortable for us to go through that stuff, and it's even less comfortable for us to come here today and talk about the thing. But it's true. But, you know, that's the, the, the good side of it is that it's better to go through all the stuff and then come out and realize the things that need to be fixed and repaired. That. Because could we keep on operating, you know, in the relationship with you still trying to protect yourself? We could, but will be better off and closer now with you letting that part down, because along with the protecting yourself is going to come defensiveness, and it's going to come all which we talk about all the time on, on this podcast is defensiveness. And if a person's still trying to protect themselves, they're going to be defensive, because that is part of protecting yourself. And you know, that's true. And when you, when you let go and trust and your partner, they may let you down and they may hurt you from time to time, but you have to know that you're in better hands than you would be protecting yourself. And I think that's the key thing. And it doesn't exclude me from it because I've also been guilty of it at times, of protecting myself instead of being vulnerable and open and trusting in you to take care of me better than I would take care of myself.

Nicole [00:15:03]: Yeah. No, you're right.

John [00:15:05]: But. But, yeah, it was. It was a lot.

Nicole [00:15:10]: It was a lot. And mostly my fault, for sure. Like, I mean, probably all of it. I was, again, didn't act in a way that I should have acted, and I was defending myself and deflecting and comparing and all these things, and it just. I don't want to do that.

John [00:15:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:32]: I was scared.

John [00:15:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:34]: And in that moment, I didn't feel like you were protecting me, but you have always protected me.

John [00:15:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:44]: So that's just my own issue.

John [00:15:48]: Yeah. And I think it did open up some other things in terms of, like, the situation, which we won't. We won't go into those details, but, like, in terms of parenting and, like, how to handle the situation and, you know, because I don't want to go into too many of the details, but, you know, I did also feel, in a way that, like, you were going to just. You had kind of left it to me, and we're going to step out of the situation, which I think we talked about that, too. And. And how, like, you know, that is maybe not the most spiritually mature thing to do. And.

Nicole [00:16:32]: Yeah. I mean, I don't really want to talk about it because I'm still deciding.

John [00:16:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:36]: Honestly, like, really. What I want.

John [00:16:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:41]: In regards to that, like, I'm still very hurt, like, just because of the things that we've talked about.

John [00:16:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:49]: I. My feelings haven't really changed, like, as far as how I feel about it all. Like, there are things that I will do, but I don't feel better. And I don't really want to, like, discuss that here, but, like, I don't, because that's something that you and I should talk about. But I don't feel better in regards to that, honestly. So I don't really want us to go into all of that.

John [00:17:24]: Yeah, I think we don't need to go into all of that. I think we just need to.

Nicole [00:17:28]: And, like, at this point, from. Also, what I've learned from this is that I have to not care to be perfect. Like, no one's perfect. And so even if it's the more spiritually mature thing to do, I don't know if I'm ready to do that right now. And I don't think that makes me less of a person.

John [00:17:47]: I think acknowledging what is right and is always important, not always doing what

Nicole [00:17:53]: is right, that's fine.

John [00:17:54]: But acknowledging that this is the right thing.

Nicole [00:17:56]: Sure. If I was the most enlightened person ever and, you know, like, could do, like, put all my feelings aside, sure. But right now, I just don't know where I'm at with that. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm also not going to pressure myself into doing something that I don't know if I'm ready to do right now.

John [00:18:21]: To do the right thing.

Nicole [00:18:24]: I mean, I understand what the right thing is.

John [00:18:28]: And you're not sure if you're ready. I just want to be clear on

Nicole [00:18:30]: the words because I'm not sure if I'm ready to put all my feelings aside when I haven't processed them and I don't feel like they've been really addressed.

John [00:18:42]: But to do the right thing, like, we just have to be clear to

Nicole [00:18:46]: do the right thing.

John [00:18:47]: Okay. Which is fair. Which is, like I said, I'm fully in support of wherever you're at in your journey. But what I'm never, ever in support of is misnaming the things like watering down the truth. Because the truth of what is right.

Nicole [00:19:05]: Because sometimes people don't do the right thing. You haven't done the right thing. Sometimes I haven't done the right thing. Everyone watching this hasn't done the right thing. Sometimes.

John [00:19:13]: Exactly. What's important is I'm not going to,

Nicole [00:19:15]: like, make myself feel bad.

John [00:19:16]: No, what's important is to acknowledge what is the right thing.

Nicole [00:19:20]: That's fine. And I acknowledge that.

John [00:19:22]: It's when we. And we've talked about this before on the podcast, but when we are in situations where we justify our actions and change what the right thing is, that's when we're in danger. And that's the thing that is the worst thing to be. As long as we acknowledge what the right thing is and know that we don't always live up to it, that's fine. But when we change the goalposts and we make the right thing be the thing that we're doing.

Nicole [00:19:47]: I didn't say that.

John [00:19:49]: Yeah, I'm not saying that you're saying that, but I'm saying that that's the thing that's super important.

Nicole [00:19:53]: I understand. I heard you the first time, and you're right. It is the right thing to do.

John [00:19:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:57]: I don't know if I'm ready for that right now.

John [00:20:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:00]: And that's why I didn't really want to talk about this right now because we obviously haven't really talked about it.

John [00:20:05]: Yeah, well, we did talk about it a while. You've got some things that you're going to do. We don't have to go into the details that are in the step of doing the right thing.

Nicole [00:20:15]: Yeah. And I'm not saying I'm not going to do those things, but I can't sit here and act like I'm just going to shove all my feelings aside. All the things that have happened, and

John [00:20:24]: I think that's good, is that no one is asking you to shove your feelings aside and no one should have to shove their feelings aside ever. All those things should always be addressed and dealt with. And I think that is important.

Nicole [00:20:36]: Yeah. I don't know if I feel like that's been done.

John [00:20:39]: Yeah. And I think it needs to be done and I think it will be done. So.

Nicole [00:20:44]: Yeah, I, I don't want to talk about it.

John [00:20:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:53]: But yeah, it was, it was good. But it's obviously still hard.

John [00:20:59]: Yeah, it is still hard. Yeah. But like I said, I think that the most important thing is just the realization of, like, not protecting yourself, that both of us have to make sure that we're doing in our relationship and that everyone has to do. Yeah,

Nicole [00:21:27]: I agree. It's hard. I feel like, as a woman, because I feel like we've been taught to protect ourselves.

John [00:21:40]: I think that's true. Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:42]: And men really haven't, like physically, sure. But it's not the same. You're way less likely to be taken advantage of or what not. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't know.

John [00:21:56]: I think men are. Are told to stand up to bullies and not to, you know, back down to people. And, you know, I think a lot of it is. I think for men it's more ego based a lot of times. But I mean, pride is the killer. Right. I mean, pride is also behind this. Right. We talked about that as well. Is that like, pride is, is the thing that causes us to, you know, be stuck and not to open up and be vulnerable and to defend. Right. Because the thing about it is that, you know what, you know what, what? Why do we need to defend ourselves? Why do we need to protect ourselves? Right. Like, you know, we think that it's going to serve some kind of purpose, but it's, you know, it's either things are either there's only two ends of the spectrum. And it's. It's always fear and love. And fear is at one end and love is the other. And when we're protecting ourselves, we're operating out of fear. When we're being vulnerable and open to people and allowing ourselves to even be hurt, we're operating out of love.

Nicole [00:23:03]: But what's the line you're saying? There is no line.

John [00:23:05]: There's no line. It's always out of love. Like the.

Nicole [00:23:08]: But I mean, okay, yeah, but here's the thing. Like, you have gotten a divorce. People have gotten a divorce. There is obviously a line. Like, I'm not saying that you don't still care about people, but that's. I think that that is what gets misconstrued when you just talk about this so simply, is that there is still a line for certain things.

John [00:23:35]: There's not a line in which love is superseded by fear. There's not a line in which.

Nicole [00:23:44]: I didn't say that, but I'm saying there's a line between continuingly being abused.

John [00:23:50]: Right. And those things aren't connected. Right. So in the sense that.

Nicole [00:23:54]: Connected.

John [00:23:55]: Right. Operating out of love in no way is connected to the actual choices you make in your life and actions that you take. Let me explain what I mean by that. What I mean by that is that I've used this example before, but I think it's a good one. So I'll. I'll use the example again. Is that. Let's suppose that you have to. You're in a combat situation and you have to. Someone's aggressively coming at you, and it's kind of you or them, and they're. You're trying to peacefully end the situation, but you end up having to take their life. You don't have to do that out of anger or hatred or fear. You can do it out of love. In the sense that it's like, I'm sorry that I have to do this as you're snapping their neck. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I'm not trying to make it funny because it's not funny, but it's like that. It's. I'm using the extreme example because that is true. It is true. Even in situations where I've been in combat situations, in fights, in bars, and I've had some of that in my history. I remember punching a guy or putting a guy in a sleeper hold and having no ill will towards him, just having to do the thing, not wanting to do the thing, but having to do the thing and buy him a drink. Afterwards and be like, hey, I'm, you know, no hard feelings, because that's the way to operate. And so I'm using that extreme example. But, like, even in a situation where let's say that you're in an abusive situation, okay, it's clear that you can't stay in that situation. And that's okay. You don't have to stay in the situation. But it doesn't have to bring up hatred in your heart. It doesn't have to.

Nicole [00:25:53]: I don't feel like I have hatred in my heart.

John [00:25:56]: I'm not saying you.

Nicole [00:25:57]: I know. I'm just saying, like, you have told me these same things. Like, I agree with you. I. I don't feel like I have hatred in my heart. I. I agree with what you're saying.

John [00:26:07]: Yeah, but that's where, like, there's. There is no line ever, Right? Like, always operating. And it's not something that, you know. Again, it's like we talk about what is the truth and what is, what is possible. And we shouldn't avoid the truth just because it's not possible. But it may not be possible to operate in this lifetime as a completely loving human being all the time showing love, unconditional love for everyone and everything at all times. But we should. But that is the right thing. And I think it's important to establish that. Because if that is how we're operating, like, if we recognize that as the truth, the greatest truth that exists in this world is that we should always be operating out of unconditional love for everyone and everything at all times, then we have a mark, and then we have a guide, a compass. And then we can evaluate all of our actions in life under that. And we can sometimes fall short, and that's fine. And we are going to fall short many, many times. But in doing so, it gives us the capacity to have grace for other people, but not change the finish line or what is the actual standard? Because that is the standard. That is what we should be striving for. And anytime that we're not doing that, we can recognize our fault without persecuting ourselves, but recognizing that we are falling short of that standard.

Nicole [00:27:35]: How do you do that? Because I was going to say, it sounds like you're putting immense pressure on yourself in that situation. And when you fall short, how do you not feel shame? How do you not feel like you're going to beat yourself up?

John [00:27:51]: Yeah, I mean, I think the difference is, like, shame is unnecessary, but guilt is good and pain is good. Right? Because when we're falling Short, we should feel guilt and we should feel pain because that is going to motivate us to move in that direction. Like pain is an indicator, whether in the body or in the mind, of something wrong.

Nicole [00:28:14]: See, I think love is a better motivator than guilt and pain.

John [00:28:18]: But the whole thing is that the lack of love. So how does love become the motivator of the lack of love? Like it's. You have to feel the pain of the regret of your actions in order to change those. Right. But it only happens, I think, if

Nicole [00:28:33]: you don't beat yourself up and you actually do listen to yourself. If you love yourself, which is what I'm talking about, yes, there is a lack of love. But if you love yourself in that moment, you are more likely to show love to the person that maybe you did feel like there's lack of love there.

John [00:28:49]: Exactly. And that's where grace comes in. And that's where giving everyone grace and giving yourself grace comes in. But the only way that we're going to give ourselves grace in this life is if we give other people grace first. Because we won't give ourselves grace if we don't operate that way externally to other people.

Nicole [00:29:05]: Or is it opposite? Because aren't we how critical we are to ourselves, we are to other people.

John [00:29:11]: I think there is a cycle to it. But more often than not, the bigger problem to solve in our lives is giving other people grace. Not giving ourselves grace because we inadvertently give ourselves grace all the time. Because we make excuses for our actions. We justify every single thing we do. There's a reason why I did it. We don't do that for other people. But the more that we do it for other people and we say, hey, this person messed up, but I have grace for them. I feel sorrow for them instead of I have love for them even though they've messed up, even though they've hurt me, then we can have the grace for ourselves. But if we don't have that, we will have shame. I think inadvertently, if you don't have grace for other people, you will have shame for yourself. Because if someone can do wrong and we can gracefully give them love even though they've done wrong, then it's in the open. If we can't, then our own sins have to be hidden. And that's where shame comes from. Hiding our sins, hiding. Pretending like they don't exist. Like not wanting to show them to the world, but knowing them, that they exist to ourselves. And that's where shame comes from.

Nicole [00:30:20]: Yeah, I agree. And I'm not Feeling that anymore.

John [00:30:24]: Yeah, and that's good. And that's good, you know, but. But I think it's. It's super important, like I said. I mean, I think that's where it just all comes down, is the one universal thing of. Of showing unconditional love for. In all of your actions, in all your ways.

Nicole [00:30:41]: Yeah. Which is hard.

John [00:30:42]: It is. It's very hard. It's. It's the most difficult thing that you can possibly ever hope to do, but it's also the best. The most noble thing that you can possibly dedicate your life to. You know, that's why people like Mother Teresa are so respected, because she is one of the examples that people point to, of doing that in life. And now maybe she didn't do it perfectly, but. But, you know, but no one will. Right. But she exemplifies that. You know what I mean? And that's why people lift her up so high. So.

Nicole [00:31:16]: Yeah, I mean, I agree with you,

John [00:31:20]: but. But, yeah, but I mean, I think that's just the core of when we're. When we're in the place of protecting ourselves or defending ourselves, we are operating out of fear. We're usually operating out of ego or pride. Like, those are the things that are keeping us from. From being vulnerable and from.

Nicole [00:31:41]: Or we don't feel like anyone's protecting us. And sometimes that's not true, but sometimes it is true. And that's also why people learn how to do these things. And like I said, I do think it's. Women especially learn to protect themselves.

John [00:31:56]: Yeah. And I mean, when. When you're operating out of that. You're operating out of fear, though, which. Which is.

Nicole [00:32:01]: I'm not saying that.

John [00:32:02]: Which is where it comes from, but. But I think it's. It's also like, it's also hard to

Nicole [00:32:06]: just turn your fear off. And I mean, like, yes, you should feel the fear and do it anyway and like, just deal with it or be vulnerable.

John [00:32:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:14]: But it is also not just like an instant switch of, now you're not afraid.

John [00:32:20]: No, I think that's where like, striving to operate out of love comes in. Because if your identity is one that you operate out of love and not fear, then it's easier to make those changes. Right. Like, that's because if our identity is caught up in our ego, then we defend our ego. If our identity is caught up in. In that we are a person of unconditional love, then the defense doesn't make any sense. Then it's like. Because the thing to think about Too, I think is like when you are trying to protect yourself. Right. And this goes for. For anyone. What. What are you actually do. Are you ever able to really actually protect yourself? Do you know what I mean? Like, is it even effective at all? Or does it just cause you more pain and more hurt and hurt other people? Because in what instance have you ever protected yourself? You know, and I'm. I'm saying not as a. I'm saying as a general. You. Right. To anyone. And it's actually been effective.

Nicole [00:33:27]: Yeah, I agree. I think it's not. I think it's less about protecting yourself, if I'm being honest, and more about having a choice in your life when you feel like you don't have one.

John [00:33:38]: But we always have a choice in our life.

Nicole [00:33:40]: I know.

John [00:33:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:41]: But it's the illusion where you feel like you don't have one.

John [00:33:44]: Right. When you feel like.

Nicole [00:33:45]: And that's why you protect yourself. You stand up for what you believe or what you want or whatever.

John [00:33:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:53]: And that is. And again, it's probably ego. It's probably fear. It's probably one of those things. But I think that's the driving factor.

John [00:34:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:05]: Is that's why it's so attractive to people. I mean, like, we all have protected ourselves. We've all been defensive. We've all done these things. We will continue to do these things. Like, yes, we should strive to not.

John [00:34:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:19]: But also, realistically, it's going to happen and we shouldn't beat ourselves up for it. Like, that's just going to make us continue to defend ourselves and continue to protect ourselves and continue to be in fear and continue to be ego maniacs or whatever.

John [00:34:34]: Yeah. As long as the thing is for the standard to be not to. You know what I mean? Like, that's where it comes in, is like to remove all justification for wrong action. Because wrong action is wrong action.

Nicole [00:34:48]: I agree. But also, you can't police other people. You can't be the moral police. I agree with you.

John [00:34:53]: Right. You can be your moral police of yourself.

Nicole [00:34:55]: Right. That's what it has to be.

John [00:34:57]: Right. Right. But truth is always truth. And I think that's the thing is like, there's a difference between moral policing the world and speaking what the truth is and speaking the truth in love. I think that's the most important part of it, I think. But you're right. I think we all. We kind of learn to protect ourselves. I think that is a. It's a. It's a trait that is human. It's admired almost. It's Lifted up as someone who doesn't let anyone do something to them or doesn't let anyone take advantage of them. But, you know, you've heard me say it many times that no one can take advantage of you. It's, it's not possible to be taken advantage of. It's. That's just an illusion that, that we make in our, in our minds to, to believe that we're taken advantage of because that, that requires us to have

Nicole [00:35:46]: not made the choice yourself.

John [00:35:47]: Right, exactly right. Because that's the thing is there's a stoic example of a dog chained to a cart, right? And the dog has the chain around his neck and the cart is going. Well, the dog has two choices. Dragged by the cart by the chain by his neck, or go along with the cartoon. And one of those choices feels like I'm being dragged by the neck. And the other choice feels like I'm going along with what is happening in life or what is, you know, and so it's like when we, when we think about someone taking advantage of us, we're the dog being dragged by the, by the neck. But when we think about, okay, this is the situation. And rather than fight the situation, I'm just going to, it's going to happen either way. So instead of me choosing it to be something that is something I'm forced to do, I'm just going to be complicit in it. Then, then we become the dog merrily going along with the cart doesn't even know the chain is around its neck. So life always presents us that choice and it will. There is always a chain around our neck and there is always a cart that is moving and we can continue to fight against it and be dragged or we can go with the cart. You know, I think that's, that's, that's why the idea of being taken advantage of is an illusion.

Nicole [00:37:19]: I understand you explained it well.

John [00:37:22]: Thank you. But I don't know what else on this, on this topic. Did you have more insights or.

Nicole [00:37:32]: No. I mean, like you said, it's just best not to protect yourself. And if you can come from a loving place and still have boundaries or still make a certain decision that you need to make lovingly.

John [00:37:48]: Yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's the key. But yeah, and I do think that, I mean, the other thing I was going to say is that, like, I do think that in a partnership, in a relationship, that it is important that the value that I hold very highly is that you should be willing to do anything for each other. And it should never feel like a burden to do something for your partner. And if it does, then that's a problem and that's something to address because, because it does come, it does stem from the wanting to protect yourself, you know, because that's. Otherwise. Why would that be the case?

Nicole [00:38:28]: Yeah, I think as long as you do feel like your partner is actually protecting you and cares about how you feel. Because again, like, yes, like you should do anything for your partner regardless. But at the same time, your partner is not a very good partner if they don't care about how you feel and they don't care about your well being either. And no one's going to want to be unprotected around someone that they feel like is not protecting them, which is not the case here. But I'm just saying that like there are relationships that are not very solid and women might not feel like their partner is protecting them and the man might feel like his wife is not protecting him.

John [00:39:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:09]: And you know, but that is a big part of it because ultimately to get what you're saying, to get two people that would do anything for each other, what really has to happen is that the man has to focus on the woman doing what's best for her and the woman has to focus on the man and doing what's best for him. And like if they clash, then they need to figure those things out together. Not like one just gets it 100% and the other doesn't get it. Unless that makes sense after discussing it. But the thing is like everything should be taken into consideration and that will get you compromised, which is also part of a relationship. Like sometimes there's going to be compromise. Sometimes it's not going to just be one way or the other. Like sometimes it is. Yeah, but sometimes there needs to be compromise. And so if you're focused on each other, then usually you can also come to a good common ground between those things. If there are conflicting things.

John [00:40:11]: I would also though add to it that you know, in a modern traditional relationship that the man has the authority in the relationship and that a woman needs to respect that authority. And if she can't trust the man to lead the relationship and trust his in his authority, then she shouldn't be in that relationship with him.

Nicole [00:40:32]: I agree, but how would she bring up if a man wants her to do something that she has made apparent she doesn't want to do, she should not say anything.

John [00:40:41]: No, she should say express the thing, but.

Nicole [00:40:46]: But she should do it anyway with

John [00:40:48]: a smile on her face exactly 100%. Because that's, that's.

Nicole [00:40:53]: What if she feels like her husband doesn't actually really care how she feels about that?

John [00:40:58]: Don't be with that man. Like, if you don't have enough trust in him to lead, to put your life in his hands and lead your life, help you with your life basically better than you would on your own. If you feel like you could do it better on your own, then you have no business even being in a relationship. Because there's. Because relationship, you know, is unnecessary in that, in that, in that scenario.

Nicole [00:41:23]: Yeah, but I feel, and I like, understand, like in our dynamic, the man is authority.

John [00:41:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:29]: But I feel like there's a difference between telling someone what to do.

John [00:41:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:33]: And genuinely considering it. And sometimes men get that wrong.

John [00:41:37]: For sure.

Nicole [00:41:38]: Sometimes men do lean on authority, being like, I told you to do this, so you need to do it. And that, that doesn't feel loving at all. That's not what you're saying. That doesn't come from unconditional love, for sure. And so it's really conflicting. And it's honestly hard for the man. Because if you're preaching that we have to do everything under unconditional love.

John [00:42:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:42:01]: But yet you're being unloving or you're coming from an unloving place or an ego place, a pride place, a selfish place.

John [00:42:09]: Yep, yep.

Nicole [00:42:10]: That kind of puts a woman in an impossible situation. So men have a lot on their plate for sure, then if they have to do all of this exactly. Correctly.

John [00:42:21]: Exactly. And here's the thing about it too is I think, is that, you know, again, no one is going to be 100% perfect. As a woman, you have to decide, do I trust this man? Will I put my life into his hands and submit to his authority, knowing that sometimes he is going to make the wrong call? Not every single time is he going to choose the right action. Not every single time is he going to take me into account to the level that he should have. Now, there's a big difference between that and a man that never takes you into account, that only wants his way, that is operating out of ego. But that's a choice that you should be making when you commit to a man, when you choose to be with a man, you should know those things ahead of time. And if you're not comfortable with them, then don't make that step and don't make that commitment, because that's, you know, because once you've made that commitment, you've made that step, then you're obligated either way. Like whether you feel like he's taking into account or not. Because the thing is, like, you have to take into consideration the air of judgment on both sides. Like, as a woman, if you're submitting to the authority of a man, but you feel like he's not taking you into account, that might not be accurate. That might be how you feel. And if you just say, well, I feel this way, so this time I'm not going to listen, then it really doesn't mean anything. It's not really a commitment, it's not really a trust. But if you say, well, okay, 90% of the time I know that he's making the right choices and taking me into account. And so that 10% of the time where he's not, I'm still on the ship and I'm still going to do my part because I don't necessarily know when that 10% is. Sometimes I think I know when the 10% is, but I'm wrong because I'm trusting someone to lead me. And if you're trusting someone to lead me, they should probably be a little more wise than you, and they should probably be making better choices in general than you. Not always the case, but in general that should be the case. And so I think that's where it comes down to, is that it comes down to trust. It's either you trust this person or you don't trust this person. If you don't trust them, don't be in a relationship with them. If you do trust them wholly.

Nicole [00:44:38]: Yeah, I agree with you. I still think that's a lot of pressure on men.

John [00:44:42]: It is a lot of pressure on men. And that's.

Nicole [00:44:44]: And feelings aren't always facts. That's true. But you should still feel like your partner cares about them truthfully. Not like lip service. Not like, okay, yeah, but you should still do this anyway. Like, I get giving someone advice.

John [00:44:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:00]: And like you said, there is always the right thing to do.

John [00:45:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:04]: But sometimes people have to learn it in their own way.

John [00:45:09]: True, true. And I think both. But with that said, if you trust a man, then you trust that even in this moment, you may feel that you're not being taken into consideration. But that might not be true. That you have to look at the overall thing of it. Right. Majority of the time is he taking into consideration more. Majority of the time, do you feel like the choices he's making?

Nicole [00:45:36]: I agree. But if it's a big deal and he's not acting like that at that time, that is a Problem. Like, if someone comes to you with big emotions and yeah, other times they give you, yeah. You know, the validation or whatever, or sit with you with it, but in this bigger moment, they don't. Then that does feel like that.

John [00:46:01]: For sure.

Nicole [00:46:02]: They're not there for you.

John [00:46:03]: For sure. It can feel that way. And I think.

Nicole [00:46:05]: And I don't think women need tough love. I don't think they need, like, someone to be like, okay, get up and go work out and do your. Like, they don't need someone to talk to them like that. Like, I'm not saying that you can't tell a woman the right thing to do and have a conversation.

John [00:46:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:24]: And tell her what you believe is right and what you think she should do.

John [00:46:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:29]: But I do think that if there's obviously a big problem and you act like you don't care, like. And you're like, well, all the other times I do. That doesn't really make anybody feel better.

John [00:46:43]: It doesn't make anyone feel better, but it's still the correct action to take.

Nicole [00:46:48]: But then it feels controlling.

John [00:46:51]: It may feel that way, but that doesn't mean that because then it's like,

Nicole [00:46:54]: okay, suck it up and you need to do this.

John [00:46:56]: Right. Exactly.

Nicole [00:46:58]: Yeah. That's like talking to a man.

John [00:46:59]: But it still is the case, right? Because.

Nicole [00:47:02]: But they. They also don't have to. That's like, the thing is, like, they. They do have their own way of going about it. You can tell somebody what's the right thing to do. How many people have you told what's the right thing to do and they didn't do it?

John [00:47:16]: Well, so many. There's a difference between telling someone what's the right thing to do and, and speaking what needs to be done out of authority. And those two things are not the same. Right. So giving a suggestion of what's wrong, saying this is what I'd like you to do, or this is what I need you to do is different than saying, okay, here's my opinion on this. This is what I think is the right thing. Do what you want, but here's the right thing that's different.

Nicole [00:47:48]: Okay?

John [00:47:49]: And in the first case, compliance is not an optional thing. I do think you're right in the sense that if it is a big matter and you're feeling not heard, that that should be communicated. I think the thing. The danger of it is that let's say that it is communicated and you are heard, but then the choice is still something that you disagree with or that you wouldn't choose. Then the question is, what are you going to do in that situation?

Nicole [00:48:26]: Yeah, it's just kind of conflicting with some other stuff. But I understand what you're saying.

John [00:48:31]: In what way?

Nicole [00:48:34]: Things we'll talk about outside of this.

John [00:48:38]: Okay. Well, I mean, if there's something that you feel like it's a. Am I speaking a contradiction?

Nicole [00:48:44]: No, I don't believe so, but it's just a little confusing to me based on other conversations that we've had about some things.

John [00:48:56]: Well, even without giving the specifics, am I saying something that's not correct?

Nicole [00:49:01]: I mean, I just feel like you've told me in certain instances, like, like you were. Like, you will still love me regardless of what I do.

John [00:49:14]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:15]: But then now it sounds like, but if you tell me to do something, I need to just do it. So now it seems like. Which is true.

John [00:49:24]: Ah, yeah. If I tell you to do something,

Nicole [00:49:26]: like now, are you just going to tell me to do the stuff like. Because, like, I don't think that that's the case. But the way you're talking is giving more like, if I tell you to do something, you need to do it.

John [00:49:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:39]: Whereas like before, you actually seem like you're coming from a loving place where you were like, you know, I will love you even if I don't agree with your decision.

John [00:49:49]: I see the confusion. I see the confusion.

Nicole [00:49:51]: It's very confusing.

John [00:49:52]: Yeah, I'm glad you pointed it out. So if I tell you to do something, then I do expect you to do. Has no, no condition on my love. I love you regardless. It doesn't matter. But it, it is, it is expected that if I tell you to do something, that you would do it because you've agreed to that, you've committed to that. You have chosen to trust me and to put me in a position of authority over you and to accept that authority. Now, there are things like I said that I might tell you to do. Now it's funny for me to even say that because I can't even recall. Very few times ever in my life have I told you what to do in that sense. And even if I do, it doesn't even come across that way. It comes across as me asking you to do something. The other instance is where you have something that I'm telling you is the right thing to do. But it's up to you to do it. I don't require you to do it. I'm not in any way using my authority to say that I need you to do this. It's up to you. I'm not going to water down the truth. And so when I say to you, regardless of what you choose, I love you unconditionally, that is the truth as well, in the sense that in those particular instances, it's up to you. I'm not here to guide your whole life in terms of the moral choices that you make or spiritual choices that you make. I'll give you leadership and guidance on it in the sense that I'll give you my wisdom. But not all of those choices that you make in your life are going to be ones that I can make for you. You have to make those choices. How I feel about you should never be influenced by those choices that you make, because those choices are yours. It's only the choices that are the choices that I. That are mine, for our family, for our relationship, that belong to me that I require compliance on. So I think that. But I'm glad that you brought that up because I think that that would be confusing to me as well.

Nicole [00:51:57]: Yeah, it was very confusing. You came across very aggressive and not from the place that you've spent the first half of this episode talking about, but I know that that is where you come from. But it is confusing hearing one thing and then hearing another way that it's being portrayed.

John [00:52:15]: Does it make sense now, though?

Nicole [00:52:16]: What I. Yeah, it was just not. I just wanted to properly, like, fully talked about. That's why. Yeah, I was confused.

John [00:52:25]: And I can take ownership for that because I should have. Should have made it more clear. But I'm glad you brought it up so we can make it more clear. But. Yeah, but. Yeah, so I don't know. So I think that's. I mean, we kind of went into a couple different topics, but I think they're all kind of related against. I mean, what it really comes down is to. Is to. Is to trust.

Nicole [00:52:49]: And a lot of people don't trust their partner.

John [00:52:51]: Yeah. And if you can't, then you either shouldn't be with that person or you should be resolving to figure out how you can resolve that, to have that trust.

Nicole [00:53:02]: That's true.

John [00:53:03]: Because you can't have a relationship without trust.

Nicole [00:53:06]: No, not a true deep relationship.

John [00:53:08]: Yeah. And that was the whole thing that was like. I think again, for me, the contention was that it would be very difficult for me to trust you if I feel that I'm willing to do anything for you, you know, without any kind of making it feel like it's a burden. And I don't have the same because you're protecting yourself. And that's where that was, like, something that's super important to me because how can I trust you if I'm putting you first and you're not putting me first, you're putting yourself first. Then I can't trust. Then there is no one that is exclusively looking out for me. Whereas if we were both doing that for each other, then everything should operate smoothly, even though it's not always going to be perfect. Yeah, that's true. All right, well, anything else?

Nicole [00:54:05]: No, I think that's everything.

John [00:54:07]: I guess we can wrap it. Uh. Good. Good. Good job. And doing a difficult thing. I'm proud of you. Because it's not easy to, like, to come here and to talk about these things.

Nicole [00:54:23]: Yeah.

John [00:54:24]: And to confront these things. It's not easy. It's not easy for me. It's not easy for you. Some people in the comments will say nasty things.

Nicole [00:54:33]: I don't care.

John [00:54:34]: But. Yeah, I don't care.

Nicole [00:54:35]: But I'm just saying, like, I don't care anymore. That's true. I don't care. Like, yeah, I'm human. You'.

John [00:54:41]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:54:42]: You can throw shade at me, but you've done the same things, maybe worse things than I've done.

John [00:54:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:48]: So it doesn't matter anymore.

John [00:54:50]: Yeah. But I'm proud of you for always being willing to be transparent with everything and. And talk about the things, because I do believe that. That this benefits people.

Nicole [00:55:02]: I hope so.

John [00:55:03]: I don't think there's.

Nicole [00:55:03]: I don't sit here crying on the Internet for nothing.

John [00:55:06]: I really.

Nicole [00:55:07]: What's his face with?

John [00:55:08]: Like, yeah, leave Brittany alone. Not to toot our own horn, but, I mean, I'll toot your horn. Is that. I don't think there's a place where people can get more real stuff, because we are creating a podcast where we're talking about how to have a better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:55:25]: Yeah.

John [00:55:25]: And at the same time, when we mess up, we're willing to show that to people, which goes against the image that we're trying to, you know, to create. And I mean, that. That is the true image. But, like, the image that people would perceive is like, oh, well, they shouldn't mess up. They shouldn't.

Nicole [00:55:42]: Yeah. But the reality is, is no one's like that.

John [00:55:45]: Right. No.

Nicole [00:55:46]: Even the people that you see online that no. Seem like they never mess up.

John [00:55:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:51]: That's why you guys get shocked when they're divorced, like, two weeks later after they posted something all happy. Because they're not showing you these things, but we're showing you these things.

John [00:56:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:01]: So that if you have the same sort of conversation, then you can think back to this or be like, oh, I'm not alone. Like, people are going through this, and I can work through this, and we can work through this.

John [00:56:13]: Yeah, well, I love you and I'm proud of you, and I will always love you, no matter what. All right, that's enough mushy stuff for the episode. Follow us or check out our website at betterthanperfectpod. Com. If you got a question for us, you can shoot us an email at betterthenperfectpodcast@gmail.com and we'll see you next week. Take care.