Nicole [00:00:00]: I did not know that people dig in the trash for food.

John [00:00:02]: Hey, I've done.

Nicole [00:00:03]: I guess I'm a germaphobe enough where I'm like, if it's in the trash,

John [00:00:06]: I've done it for cigarettes before. Where I, like, threw away my cigarettes. This is a long time ago. And then I was, damn, I really wanted a cigarette. And then I go in the trip, so I had to, like, break them in half at one point. I'm like, okay. Anyway, wow. The point is the point beyond the perfect we discovered through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. And today we are talking about. I just forgot it. Do you remember what it was? Did you forget it too?

Nicole [00:00:56]: Are you.

John [00:00:57]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:00:58]: Is your partner being controlling or are you just used to. To being single?

John [00:01:03]: Something along those lines, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So. Yeah, so that's a good one. So we've kind of talked about this in the past before we kind of like one of the first episodes, we talked about, like, the five rules for relationship, and we've kind of touched on this subject, but I think it's one that keeps coming up. So it's a good one to address in, like, the behaviors of, you know, having some kind of rules or regulations in your relationship versus actually being controlling.

Nicole [00:01:29]: Mm.

John [00:01:31]: But, yeah, so. So I think where we. Where we see this a lot is where people justify, like, single person actions and behaviors and say that they're being controlled when their partner doesn't like that.

Nicole [00:01:48]: Yeah. Or tells them that they shouldn't be doing it or whatnot.

John [00:01:52]: Yeah. So kind of to recap, I think what. What we. Maybe it's good to start with, like, the rules that we generally have.

Nicole [00:02:00]: Do you remember how many there are?

John [00:02:01]: There's five.

Nicole [00:02:03]: Why do I feel like there's more?

John [00:02:04]: I think it's five. It's like, so locations on all the time, passwords and usernames to email, phone access. Basically accounts. No girls night and guys night out or trips. Right. Yeah. Including their bachelor party. Bachelorette party. Basically. No friends of the opposite sex. Yeah. So that's four. And then. I feel like there's one more.

Nicole [00:02:39]: But see, while John's thinking about it.

John [00:02:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:43]: I need people to realize that, like, we have these rules.

John [00:02:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:48]: But we wouldn't do them anyway. So we don't even remember what the rules are. Like. Yeah, like we do, but we don't. Because the thing is, like, we just live this way.

John [00:02:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:59]: To respect each other. And so that's also why you can't even remember the last one, because it's like. I mean, and like, you're like, location's always on. I'm like, I. Like, I wouldn't even think to turn them off.

John [00:03:11]: Right, Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:13]: And like, of course you have all the passwords to all my stuff. Like, I'm married to you.

John [00:03:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:18]: And like, why do we need to go on girls trip? Guy trip. Like, I don't want to act like I'm single when I'm not single.

John [00:03:24]: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:03:25]: And like the friends of the opposite sex thing, we have friends of the opposite sex, but they're in groups of our friends and we would not hang out with them.

John [00:03:35]: Individual friendships of opposite sex. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:03:39]: Right.

John [00:03:39]: So. Yeah. So, I mean, these are things that I would say are. Even though they don't seem like it to a lot of people, but they're common sense to me.

Nicole [00:03:49]: Yeah.

John [00:03:49]: Like, these are pretty reasonable things, but a lot of people would call them controlling.

Nicole [00:03:56]: Yes.

John [00:03:56]: And I think that's the thing, is to understand what the difference is, the distinction between controlling and being protective of the relationship. Like, reasonable things. So where this comes up, a lot is especially going out. Right.

Nicole [00:04:14]: I wouldn't even call it protective before you start. I would call it respond. Respectful.

John [00:04:18]: Yeah. Respectful. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, some of the things I would. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess you could say either way, because I'm saying that some of these things, it is respectful. It is. Some people would say, well, it's. My partner's fine with it, so then

Nicole [00:04:34]: why would you then just do it anyway?

John [00:04:36]: Right. So. So. But then that. But then it is protective because you shouldn't be fine with these things. Right. So. Because some people are like, oh, well, you know, you should trust partner.

Nicole [00:04:45]: Oh, that you said they're fine with, like. Oh, no, the other things.

John [00:04:48]: No, but like, like, fine with, like,

Nicole [00:04:51]: girls trips or whatever. Yeah.

John [00:04:52]: Which you shouldn't be. You shouldn't be fine with it because it's not wise. Right.

Nicole [00:04:57]: It's not respectful to your relationship.

John [00:04:59]: Right. But. But if you say that it's. It's respectful because the other person is okay with it as well, that doesn't.

Nicole [00:05:05]: To me, that still doesn't make it respectful.

John [00:05:08]: Yeah. Because some people are of the mind that I'm such a big person, I trust my partner, so I don't need to have these rules that you guys Have, I don't need to, have to know where their location is. I don't need it to be on. I don't need to have their phone password. I trust them. They can go out to a nightclub dressed in a skanky outfit. I know they're not going to cheat on me. I trust them.

Nicole [00:05:29]: But see, my logical brain is like, regardless of what you say, it's still not respectful to you. And so that's why I'm saying, I keep saying respectful because it doesn't matter if the person's fine with it or not, it's still not respectful. Just because they're fine with it doesn't make it respectful.

John [00:05:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:48]: Like that is not open to interpretation. Like, is it acceptable? Sure. If your partner says that he's fine with it, then maybe acceptable. But acceptable does not equal respectful. It doesn't equal the right thing. It equals that. He is accepting that.

John [00:06:06]: And that person has a right to say that they don't like it. Because a lot of times what ends up happening we've talked about a little bit before, more so women sometimes will use the word controlling in order to, or insecure to make a guy feel like what she wants to do. And a lot of times it's a manipulation tactic. Right. And it's one sided in the sense that, oh, you can't tell me like why are you so threatened by what I wear or if I go here or I go with my girlfriends or if I have this guy friend, right? That's like you're being controlling, telling me I can't talk to this guy or telling me I can't hang out with my girlfriends at a nightclub or I can't wear this thing. And it's like that's like to use the word controlling is used, like you said, in a manipulative way because having a problem with your partner, your spouse, going to somewhere that is a single person place where people are being picked up, that is a social gathering and wearing inappropriate clothing is not insecure and it's not controlling. It's common sense.

Nicole [00:07:17]: It's disrespectful.

John [00:07:18]: Exactly. Yeah. It's calling out the disrespect. Right. And so I think that's the big thing is that it's getting reframed a lot of times into controlling or insecure. There are behaviors that would be insecure or controlling, but that would be looking like, let's say that you're a husband and your wife, you're telling her she needs to be at this location at this time and you're tracking every single thing that she does, and you're asking her about every single step of the way of what she's doing. And you're controlling exactly what clothes that she wears at any given time or who that she talks to outside of the basic guidance that we're saying here, like the rules that make sense. And really, I think in order to be controlling, there has to be an emotional consequence side of it to be like, if you don't do this, then I'm going to create an emotional pain for you because you're not doing what I'm telling you to do. You know what I mean? When someone is being controlling, how do you see controlling behavior or is it even something that even exists?

Nicole [00:08:38]: Yeah, I mean, I think controlling is forcing someone to do what you want to do with no regard to them, and then using things like manipulation or other sort of tactics, gaslighting, in order to get what you want.

John [00:08:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:57]: Because you can't handle life going a different way. You have to micromanage every single thing, Right?

John [00:09:04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I think if you're. Maybe that's a good way is if you're micromanaging every single thing. That's more of what you would call controlling versus being concerned where your partner is going to a place that's inappropriate or doing something that is inappropriate or that could risk or jeopardize a relationship.

Nicole [00:09:23]: Yeah, no, I don't. I think it's disrespectful to do the things like. And the people who have a problem with it. It's like, maybe you're not ready to be in a committed relationship if you have a problem with the rules. Because when you want to be in a committed relationship and you want to be, you know, deeply close and intimate with somebody, these rules don't even come into your head. You don't feel restricted.

John [00:09:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:50]: That's what people don't understand. People feel restricted because they've been able to live a single life in a relationship for so long that now they're like, oh, you're making me do all this stuff. Like, if you want to live a single life, go be single. But the thing is, I lived a single life before you came along.

John [00:10:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:09]: I don't miss those things. I don't need to. To go to the club with a bunch of girls. I don't need. I don't care. Like, you can have my exact pinpoint location. That doesn't matter to me. You're my husband. Like, these things don't matter. And if they do matter. Again, there's some other thing going on. You either, like still trying to be single, like, or act single, like in this carefree, like, don't care about anybody but myself way or something. Because that's what I keep trying to say is like, these rules don't feel like rules because you don't bump up against them. When you want to be respectful to your partner and to the relationship.

John [00:10:47]: Yeah. Because it should be radical transparency between you and your partner and you should be doing things that are respectful. Because even if you don't think it's respectful or even if they don't think it's respectful, it can. Or disrespectful. It can still be disrespectful. You know, if, if you're my wife.

Nicole [00:11:04]: Right.

John [00:11:05]: Think about it. Out at a nightclub wearing some skinky dress and someone sees you there and they're like, oh, that's Nicole from Better Than Perfect podcast. Where's John? Oh, he's not there. It's. They're going to think a certain way, like it's disrespectful to me. You know what I'm saying? Because other people will perceive, like, bad things about your spouse. Well, that's because of the image that you're. But yeah, because of the image you're portraying. Right. If you put, you're portraying single people

Nicole [00:11:38]: behavior, you're portraying that you're single, you're wearing something to get attention.

John [00:11:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:44]: And your husband's not there to give you the attention.

John [00:11:46]: Right. That's not like, imagine like if I was at a strip club, right. And then someone sees me there and they're like, oh, isn't that John from the, the podcast? And they're like, where's, where's Nicole? Oh, she's not there. Oh, that's interesting. Like, that's very disrespectful to you.

Nicole [00:12:04]: Right?

John [00:12:04]: Right. Like, it would be even if I wasn't doing anything, which that's already doing something, being here. But like at a bar or something where it was a bunch of single people or women around, like that would. That would someone seeing that would then think less of me or think less of you in that case, how it's disrespectful.

Nicole [00:12:25]: We went to a restaurant at like a country club one time and this guy had a wedding ring on and he's talking to all these bridesmaids because there was like a wedding going on or pre wedding thing. That's disrespectful.

John [00:12:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:40]: Like, I'm not saying you can't have conversations with people. But honestly, you should still not even be engaging with. Sure, talk to the bartender. Or like, if somebody's like, oh, we're just visiting, where should we go? Yada yada, tell them. And then, you know, watch the game or whatever you came there to do. Because you either came there to talk to women or you came there to watch a football game. So go back to watching the football game. But even then, you shouldn't go. It's just input.

John [00:13:09]: If your partner was present and could see the interaction, whatever behavior would be okay then is respectful. And whatever would not be okay then is disrespectful.

Nicole [00:13:21]: I mean, I agree with you, but I would even say I would err. It's respectful to err on the side of.

John [00:13:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:28]: Being as least disrespectful as you can. Because some people are going to sit in here and be like, well, I don't care if my husband is. If I'm there and my husband's talking to some bridesmaids.

John [00:13:38]: But the thing is, like, yeah, you're right, because then. But he should know better.

Nicole [00:13:42]: Right.

John [00:13:42]: Even if you're okay with it, you may be insecure and like, be okay with stuff that you shouldn't be okay with, but he should have more respect for you than you can have for yourself.

Nicole [00:13:51]: You should err on the side. That's why I'm saying, like, if someone asks you a question, don't be rude. You can be like, yeah, go check out this place. But then talk to. Talk to another guy at the bar. Go like, move to a different spot or go home.

John [00:14:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:03]: You know what I mean? Like, so again, like, logically, a lot of things don't make sense. Well, they shouldn't talking to you.

John [00:14:13]: Get out of here.

Nicole [00:14:13]: Get you my name tattooed on their forehead.

John [00:14:19]: But, but I mean, you already got your. On your, your face on my underwear. So.

Nicole [00:14:24]: Yeah, just wait till I change all your underwear to have my face on it.

John [00:14:28]: Yeah, but I think it's worth going through some of the things again just to, to talk about why each one is like, not controlling and is. Makes common sense.

Nicole [00:14:38]: But having my face on your underwear control.

John [00:14:42]: Only if you make me wear that underwear. Only that underwear. Yeah, but you're like, you can only wear this.

Nicole [00:14:48]: It's a little possessive, I guess.

John [00:14:52]: I like it.

Nicole [00:14:53]: So, yeah, you want all your underwear to have my face on.

John [00:14:57]: That's right. But there's some other joke in there. I want face near all my underwear.

Nicole [00:15:04]: Oh, okay. Also, but yeah, so I think, like, the people who have, like, a problem with this. There's some other problems.

John [00:15:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:14]: You know what I mean?

John [00:15:17]: Look at locations. You should have them on. That's transparency.

Nicole [00:15:21]: Yeah.

John [00:15:21]: It's not controlling to want to know where your spouse is at all times. Like, it's. It's transparency because we have the technology to do it, so why not? Like, it's. It's transparency. That's. Yeah, it's reasonable.

Nicole [00:15:34]: And if you don't want it, that's suspicious.

John [00:15:36]: It is suspicious because. What are you hiding? What is the reason People like, oh, well, what if I'm going to the store to get them a gift? Okay, then just say, don't look at my location for five minutes or whatever. Or don't even say anything. Like, big deal. That's a little trade off that you make.

Nicole [00:15:49]: The thing is, I have your location and I only look at it when, like, I'm concerned that you're not back in a time frame or something.

John [00:15:57]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:58]: Like, and I can tell you, like, on my hand, in like the past six months, maybe even a year, how many times I've even looked at it. Like, it's there in case I want to, but it's not like I look at it every single day.

John [00:16:13]: Yeah, but it's a reasonable thing. Like if you're in a relationship and someone says, I want to turn our locations on. Right. Again, I guess. Okay, maybe you can make the argument for controlling. If they say, I want you to turn your location on and not okay. Now I could actually say, okay, that feels controlling. That feels kind of controlling. I would say. Then I could give you that. Right. But if someone is saying, I would like to both of us turn our locations on. Yeah, that's not controlling.

Nicole [00:16:43]: And both of us not go on girl or guy trips and both of us not have friends of the opposite sex and both of us have access to each other's phones and whatever.

John [00:16:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:53]: How can you think that that's. Yes, if it's one way, sure. Yeah. That is controlling. That's. That's just weird. Like, you should not take that bet anyway. Like, why are you giving all your information? The person's not. Like, that's suspicious. That's grounds for removal, in my opinion, anyway. Yeah, but I've said this in the other episodes where we talked about this. That should make you feel like the person that you're with cares about you and wants to respect the relationship. They're also giving something up. You're not just giving it up yourself

John [00:17:22]: and cares about the relationship. Right. Because the thing is, the fundamental argument that we get into people with is about the subject, is that they think they can just implicitly trust their partner. And because of that, that you should be able to. Otherwise you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone. But the thing is, is that even the best people fall. They get temptation, they fall into sin. They, like, make a mistake. They do something that they regret. But the only way that that happens is when you're put into the circumstances that create. That allow that to happen.

Nicole [00:17:54]: And so, well, it's like accountability for your relationship.

John [00:17:58]: Right? The best way of putting yourself in those situations. You know, when I. When I would coach people about, like, weight loss and dieting and stuff, I would always be like, okay, get rid of all the junk food you have in your cabinets and your refrigerator. Go throw it all away. Right? Sometimes you might need to destroy it, not just put it in the trash can, because you. You might dig.

Nicole [00:18:19]: You know, this is the first time I've heard of that. Well, not the first time. One of our friends did this, like, on Sunday. And I was shocked. I did not know that people dig in the trash for food.

John [00:18:34]: Hey, I've done.

Nicole [00:18:35]: I guess I'm a germaphobe enough where I'm like, if it's in the trash,

John [00:18:38]: I've done it for cigarettes before. Where I, like, threw away my cigarettes. This is a long time ago. And then I was like, damn, I really wanted a cigarette. And then I go in there, so I had to, like, break them in half. At one point, I'm like, okay. But then it's like. Then you're, like, looking for the little piece of the thing, you know? So anyway, wow. The point is. The point is that if you're at

Nicole [00:19:02]: that level also, like, you've gone a little far.

John [00:19:07]: But, you know, the point is that when you don't have any of that stuff around now, if you want to get some junk food, you have to. Well, now you can Uber eats. But before then, you could drive. You have to drive, get in your car and go somewhere and do it right? So the chances of that happening are much, much less. You could still do. Right. But it's the same thing with violating the relationship. Maybe you, you know, whatever definition you have for cheating, but it could be flirting with someone, right? It's like, you know, or sending the attack a text that is not an appropriate text to someone who's just a friend, but you were just kind of joking or like, but it went there, or. You know what I'm saying? It's like, these are all the little slippages. I'm not saying that you, you're just straight up cheating with someone, but it, but it leads to that. And so it's like, it's like you

Nicole [00:19:58]: gotta nip it in the bud before it even starts.

John [00:20:00]: Like allowing all this stuff in your relationship, like girls night out, guys night out, all this stuff. And having your location off, it's like having a bunch of junk food in your cabinets. Right. And you're like, okay, I'm on a diet, I'm not gonna eat the junk food perhaps. Right. But you're more likely to get tempted. And yeah, you should still resist the temptation, but why put the temptation there in the first place? If you're living your life in such a way that you avoid doing anything that would be disrespectful to your partner, you're being transparent with your location, which creates accountability for you as well. And you're not going to places guys night out or girls night out. And you're not texting people of the opposite sex. Like if you are, you're showing your partner. Maybe that was. The other one is like always show any conversations with the opposite sex, but you're not having a friend of the opposite sex that you're having private conversations with.

Nicole [00:20:49]: Right.

John [00:20:50]: And meeting in private places or you know, that you're not maintaining that relationship, then you're less likely to fall into these, these situations where you may do something that you regret and so.

Nicole [00:21:05]: Or your partner does.

John [00:21:06]: Yeah, exactly. So it's better to just be protective of the relationship in that way. And having those guidelines that are, that are go both ways. It's not like you're one way enforcing it. You're saying I'm also not going to do this.

Nicole [00:21:20]: Yeah, you know, I agree.

John [00:21:21]: Oh, that was, maybe that was. The other one is no public, the public Instagram accounts or public social media accounts. Well, yeah, but unless you have a business, right? Unless you just like.

Nicole [00:21:30]: Yeah, but you're, you are your business. So it's, it is a little loopholey,

John [00:21:35]: but you're transparent mindset, you know? Yeah. So but you have access to everything and like, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, but, but, but that's also, you know, like because some people have their public Instagrams for attention.

Nicole [00:21:50]: I mean, I would say that people do all of this stuff somewhat for attention.

John [00:21:54]: For attention, yeah. Yeah. And what happens when you get the attention? Then what happens?

Nicole [00:21:59]: So that's why you really better have some self control.

John [00:22:02]: So it's better to not get the attention. Better not to seek out the attention to do those things.

Nicole [00:22:05]: Well. And if you're in a good relationship, you don't want to. I guess that's the point I keep trying to hammer here is that you don't want attention from anyone except your partner, your husband, your boyfriend, whatever. Like again, if you're bumping up against these things, if you're like, no, I would never have these rules.

John [00:22:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:25]: Then you should be single.

John [00:22:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:27]: You still haven't gotten the singleness out of your system.

John [00:22:31]: Right? Yeah, but then when someone proposes these things again, like I said, it's not controlling, it's not insecure. Like to tell someone that's insecure or controlling because they want to do something that's respectful to each other or protect the relationship is as long as it's both ways. Yeah, it has to be.

Nicole [00:22:49]: Obviously they're like both ways. All right, here's some rules for you, but not me. I'm going to the strip club every night. But you're staying here.

John [00:22:57]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:22:59]: And I'm have your location, make sure you don't leave.

John [00:23:02]: Exactly. See, that's, that's the, that's. I think that's what people think in their head.

Nicole [00:23:06]: Right.

John [00:23:07]: But that's, that's not what we're advocating at all. Which is, is weird. But I, I just never understand people that are arguing against this. Right. Like, it's like, but, but I get, I guess they make their justifications. Like I, I hear a lot of times women like, oh, it's fine if I go to the, the club. We're not like guys, we're just going out to have a good time, which

Nicole [00:23:25]: I do believe that. But again, it's like if you're dressing provocatively and like you're going to a place where a lot of. And it's like, yeah, that's like you're still putting yourself. I do think women have more self control in instance. But again, you're adding alcohol that and like impairs your judgment and it's just not smart.

John [00:23:46]: Well, and also like you, you know, it may be something small. Like it starts off like all these things start off small, right. It's not like people just come up with these ideas that are just full on, cheat on their partner. Like it starts off with, you go to the club, you're just hanging out with your girlfriends, but you want attention, right? You don't. You're not going to entertain the attention, but you want the attention.

Nicole [00:24:11]: Well, that's why you go to a club, right?

John [00:24:13]: Like Exactly. If you're honest, like, you're wearing. You're not wearing. You're not wearing sweatpants.

Nicole [00:24:18]: You go to the club to have fun and get attention.

John [00:24:22]: Right. And then, so then the wanting attention is not enough at some point. So then you're just doing some innocent flirting.

Nicole [00:24:31]: Or you start acting like you're single again because you're in a single environment.

John [00:24:34]: But you're not going to cheat. But you're just innocently flirting like some guy talked to you, so you talk to him back. You're just having a good time. I know it's cheating, but I'm just saying, like, how people rationalize it. And then what's the next level from that? Oh, I let this guy buy me a drink. Not a big deal. Okay. You know what I'm saying? Like, it escalates.

Nicole [00:24:52]: I understand what you're saying.

John [00:24:53]: You start from something that is, like, you think is innocent, but when you put yourself into those environments, then you're creating all these opportunities.

Nicole [00:25:01]: I understand what you're saying. I do think, again, I stand on the fact that I do think majority of women could go in that situation and not do something bad. I think that none of them should do it, though.

John [00:25:16]: Right. Right.

Nicole [00:25:17]: Because, I mean, there was a time when you were. And I had, like, broken up on one of those times, and I went out with my friends because, like, this was also, like, the second time we, like, we're on a break thing. And I was like, okay, I'm not doing this anymore. Like, this, like, he's not going to break up with me for a third time. I'm going to get back out there. And I went out a lot when I was single.

John [00:25:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:38]: And I went out with my friends, and it just wasn't the same because I had been with you for months. And I was like, this is what I want, a relationship. I don't. I don't want to be thrown back into the single world. I don't want to come out here and be single.

John [00:25:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:54]: I don't even want to come out here and act single because I don't want to be single.

John [00:25:57]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:58]: Like, and so that's. I guess the part that I don't understand is people in relationships that they say are good and say they want to be in, but are acting single.

John [00:26:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:07]: Because, like, they either don't really want to be in that relationship and they're settling or something, and that's why they're trying to live both lives, live double lives of, like, pretending to be single and.

John [00:26:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:19]: You Know, being in a relationship still, like, I don't know what it is, but. Or they didn't get enough single time. They've just jumped from relationship to relationship so they don't know how to, like, that's how they're trying to be single while not being single. I don't know. But all I know is, is my own personal experience. I was single. I had fun when I was single. And I'm sitting here telling you that when I went out, when I was single, yes, the goal was to have fun with my girlfriends, but it was also to get attention. It was also hopefully meet a guy.

John [00:26:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:52]: So I wouldn't be single.

John [00:26:53]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:26:54]: Like. And to, like, go out and look good and, like, get attention and whatever. Like. But when you found someone you want to be with.

John [00:27:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:27:03]: That has to be more than wanting to be single.

John [00:27:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:07]: Because if it's not, then you have other problems. You have validation problems. You have the problem of, like, you need external validation and being with somebody isn't enough for you. You don't feel like that's enough.

John [00:27:19]: And that. And that whole thing will escalate. Because if you need the external validation and you're just getting attention, then the attention won't be enough for you.

Nicole [00:27:26]: Right.

John [00:27:27]: And then it's gonna be the next thing I need to just have a guy flirt with me or whatever. And you know what I'm saying? That's what it's. That's.

Nicole [00:27:32]: Yeah, it spirals.

John [00:27:33]: And even the, you know, the having friends of the opposite sex also is like one where it becomes a slippery slope because you might not have any intentions. They're just a platonic friend. But then what happens when you're having a fight with your partner or spouse and you're relaying the information to them, and now you're just like, in psychotherapy, they have transference. Right. And now they're being your therapist, and now you're developing a connection with them. Someone who you weren't sexually attracted to, or they are attracted to you because there's a reason why they're hanging around you all the time. And so they're looking for an opportunity which is disrespectful to your partner. Or you just go somewhere and people see you together and they don't know that it's a platonic relationship. But now it looks bad on your spouse. It would look if I was sitting anywhere with some.

Nicole [00:28:20]: Well, you can't really say that because at your sister's wedding, people thought that you and your sister were married.

John [00:28:27]: Okay.

Nicole [00:28:30]: We know that's not the case. And we know it's your sister, but it's just funny because even you went somewhere with your sister and people were like, yeah, your brother went with his wife. And I'm like, no, my husband went with a sister.

John [00:28:44]: Yeah, but what I'm saying is.

Nicole [00:28:46]: No, it just proves your point, though, because it can even happen with your sister.

John [00:28:49]: Yeah, if I'm sitting somewhere having lunch with some. Some woman. Right. That's not you. It looks pretty bad. Like people don't know what's going on. Yeah, maybe something bad's going on, maybe not, but they're gonna assume the worst, and it looks bad on you.

Nicole [00:29:02]: Yeah, you can go eat with your sister.

John [00:29:05]: It's different if it's your sister. Like.

Nicole [00:29:07]: Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, it just proves your point, though, that, like, people don't know you.

John [00:29:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:14]: They're gonna think whatever their mind comes up with, and then they could spread rumors and then it get back to you and you know. You know what I mean? What if your partner doesn't know that you're talking to your girlfriend or whatever, your friend that's a girl, you know?

John [00:29:28]: And.

Nicole [00:29:28]: Yeah, that's not good.

John [00:29:30]: However well you think you know yourself, you should not test yourself. You know what I'm saying? Like, we want to believe that, oh, this could never happen to me, or I would never do this thing. Right. And so many people, every single person that's done this thing has at one point said, I would never do this thing.

Nicole [00:29:51]: I'm sure.

John [00:29:51]: And the way that they do this thing is they end up. It's always a little bit at a time. It's a little slippage. It's a little like the line moves just a little bit, you know, and then eventually you find yourself all the way over here. Right. You know, And I mean, and I can speak from experience on that.

Nicole [00:30:10]: Oh, you slippery sloped into what you were doing.

John [00:30:12]: Well, yeah, pretty much. I mean, it became something.

Nicole [00:30:16]: I thought you went full blown, like, balls to the wall, just.

John [00:30:20]: But it was explosion, if I'm. If I'm honest about it. There was small things that I did that as from.

Nicole [00:30:29]: From you went running for, like, attention and like.

John [00:30:31]: Yeah. Or like. Or just like talking to a girl or. You know what I'm saying? Like flirting, whatever, and then getting to a point of like, where now I was all the way over here, way past this line, doing all kinds of crazy, you know, so that's it. But it always starts that way. Even. Even if you just look at like any drug addict, Right?

Nicole [00:30:52]: Yeah.

John [00:30:52]: Who ends up destroying their whole life, they're never like, oh, I decided to just. I just wanted to fall to the wall, let's just do some heroin and just. No, they started with something else or something small or like, you know, they didn't intend to go down this road.

Nicole [00:31:06]: Yeah.

John [00:31:07]: Or they thought they could control it or whatever it was that they thought, you know, like that's how they ended up down, down that road. That's. It's always the path. Like no one ever just goes full in or very few people go full in on, on a, on a wrong path. And that's why like when your partner has a concern about you going out or doing something, to take it seriously and not treat it as controlling.

Nicole [00:31:33]: Yeah. Well, like, and you know, we're adults here.

John [00:31:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:37]: You know what's controlling and what's not controlling, Right?

John [00:31:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:40]: Like again, if it's one sided, it's probably controlling, right?

John [00:31:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:46]: If it's not one sided and it makes logical sense, even if it. You're pissed off because you can't go out clubbing anymore with your girlfriends. You need to understand what the person's actually trying to do. Like show you that they care about you.

John [00:32:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:01]: And that they care about the relationship. And it's not supposed to be punishment. It's not supposed to be these things. If you think that then again, you need to be single, you're not ready to be in any sort of relationship.

John [00:32:12]: Right. Right.

Nicole [00:32:12]: Because again, these, these are not far fetched. We don't ever bump up against these things.

John [00:32:17]: Right. Exactly. We're so, so clear of it that it's never going to be a problem.

Nicole [00:32:22]: Right. We never had a problem with any of these things.

John [00:32:25]: In order for either of us to cheat on each other, it would require an extreme effort of going, of going driving out across the state to buy the fireworks. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not in the pantry. You want to get that snack food

Nicole [00:32:42]: so you can't be like, I just tripped and fell into her nether.

John [00:32:46]: It would require like some real effort to do that. And so that creates a very big bubble of protection. Not that I feel like either of us need it.

Nicole [00:32:56]: No.

John [00:32:57]: But at the same time, it's better to have that bubble of protection and not to assume that you don't need it. Like, because it's very risky to, to think that you can just fly through life and the problems that other people have, you're not going to have. That's a very risky Proposition.

Nicole [00:33:15]: It's like a house for your relationship.

John [00:33:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:19]: It protects you.

John [00:33:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:20]: You don't. You're not like, oh, I'm. I'm in jail. You're in your house.

John [00:33:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:25]: That's what it should feel like. It's not jail. It's your house. Because you're like, there's this big bubble of protection, and we don't ever need to use it. That's why it feels like there is no bubble of protection. Because there's. It's things that we would never even do because we respect each other and we expect. We respect the relationship so much.

John [00:33:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:44]: That it doesn't feel confining.

John [00:33:46]: Yeah. You don't feel the walls if you're getting close to them.

Nicole [00:33:49]: Exactly.

John [00:33:50]: It's only if you're bumping against the walls all the time, then you feel the walls. That's the thing is, like, we don't feel the walls because they're there, but we don't even come close to the them because we don't. Wouldn't want to.

Nicole [00:34:01]: Right.

John [00:34:01]: But sometimes having the walls also helps you to not come close to them because you understand why they're there.

Nicole [00:34:06]: People like having guidelines.

John [00:34:08]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:34:09]: Is less uncertainty, and that's how it should be looked at. Like, it's less uncertainty in your relationship. You know what is respectful and what's not respectful? You know what? You can't do what you shouldn't do if you want to be in this relationship. Like, that doesn't mean that you constantly run into these things. And if you do constantly run into these things, then again, you have some other things going on. And I know I've said that in the past few episodes, but it's true. Like, it's less of a them problem if they're saying we should both do this to respect our relationship and protect it in order to make it so that we make it to the long run without hurting each other.

John [00:34:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:53]: If you have a problem with that, that is your problem.

John [00:34:56]: Right. And it really is also, like, because of the difference in which. Because you said about the nightclub and stuff. But there is a difference in which men fall into temptation versus how women do. Right. And so, like, we talked about this before with bachelor parties and bachelorette parties. And like, a lot of times on the bachelor party, men are looking to.

Nicole [00:35:15]: Oh, they're on dating apps. Like, yeah.

John [00:35:18]: So they're like, oh, we're going to have a lot of fun. We're going to have this. You know, Whereas a lot of times when with bachelorette parties, women are not necessarily looking for trouble, but it just happens.

Nicole [00:35:28]: Still find it.

John [00:35:28]: It just happens. The guy was amazing and like, I drank too much and I didn't intend to. So they're not going out with the intention, but it still happens.

Nicole [00:35:38]: Shitty.

John [00:35:39]: It is less shitty, but it still happens.

Nicole [00:35:40]: It still happens.

John [00:35:41]: But then.

Nicole [00:35:42]: But it's very shitty when guys are downloading dating apps.

John [00:35:46]: So. So the person really in the relationship who should be setting all of these boundaries and rules should be the man. Because the reason being is because women in their naivety in this area will think that nothing will happen. They're okay. Like, they don't need these rules because they can go to a nightclub by themselves or with their friends and whatever, and they're not going to cause any. They're not going to do anything. Or they can have a guy friend

Nicole [00:36:14]: that they only like as a friend

John [00:36:15]: and the guy friend. Right. And nothing's gonna happen. Yeah, right. Because they're not intending for things to happen.

Nicole [00:36:22]: Right.

John [00:36:22]: Where they know that a guy is more likely to be like, searching it out. Right.

Nicole [00:36:25]: Yeah.

John [00:36:26]: But that's why they might say, oh, we don't need these rules. But it's still a protection because they're more likely to fall into it by accident. By not. When I say accident, I mean by not intentionally seeking it out. But it just happens.

Nicole [00:36:42]: Right.

John [00:36:43]: Because that's the whole thing with pickup and game anyways. You're, you're, you're, you're basically creating a situation.

Nicole [00:36:51]: Yeah, for the evening.

John [00:36:52]: Exactly. Like she's not expecting that or planning that the guy's planning on getting laid. That's why he went out. The woman, not necessarily playing. If she wanted to get late, she would have been out of there five minutes ago because she just shows up and then disappears. Right. Like, like she's not trying to like, get laid, but the guy somehow convinces her, changes her mind, romances her that now she's on board with that. So that's the whole thing is that most of the resistance comes from women on creating these rules. Because they don't. Because when I say naive, I don't say this is like a bad thing. But they're naive to this because they don't understand that they're more susceptible to this happening to them without them realizing it. Where guys are more intentional in, in some of the things that they shouldn't be doing.

Nicole [00:37:40]: And so, I mean, it just makes no sense that if you're like, oh, I wouldn't do that anyway, why you wouldn't give it up anyway then, right?

John [00:37:47]: Exactly. Yeah. Well, because. Because again, the, the argument is, well, I just like to dance. I just like to like, go with my.

Nicole [00:37:53]: Go to Madhouse.

John [00:37:54]: I don't need to.

Nicole [00:37:55]: Yeah, shameless.

John [00:37:56]: But. But I don't need to. Like, you know, Madhouse is more fun

Nicole [00:38:00]: than the clubs, honestly, because you don't have to worry about creepy guys being

John [00:38:03]: like, hey, girl, But. But, you know, they'll say, well, I just want to be able to hang out with my friend. Or we're just going on a girls trip. Like, it's, it's like, it's ridiculous to be like, controlling about this or to be, you know, we're just going to the bar, we're just going to the nightclub. We just dance. Like, you know, so they're more likely to make that kind of adjust. And when they're making that justification, it can be honest. But a man should recognize that, okay, even though she might have good intentions, it's still putting her in harm's way. It's still dangerous situation for her to be in because there are going to be guys hitting on her. There are going to be temptations. There are situations in which it doesn't look good, but it can. Cause.

Nicole [00:38:47]: I mean, I view it this way based on what you just said. Right. Like I said, feel like a woman who could do all the things that we're talking about and not have a problem.

John [00:38:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:38:58]: But why would I want to give you rules that I don't put on myself?

John [00:39:04]: Right?

Nicole [00:39:05]: Like we're a team, right? I know I would not do those things even if I was allowed to do them.

John [00:39:10]: Right. Well, I could say the same thing, though. I know I wouldn't do those things.

Nicole [00:39:14]: But, but I'm saying that that's also why we have the stance that we have is because these don't even feel like rules because we wouldn't do them anyway. But we're also not trying to hold on to like, oh, but I need to go to the club with my girlfriends. Like, I need to go to the bar with my guy friends. We're not clinging to these things.

John [00:39:33]: Yeah, you can't tell me what to do. I can live my life and do my things I shouldn't. A relationship shouldn't mean that I can't have fun.

Nicole [00:39:43]: If your idea of having fun is all the single people things, then go be single.

John [00:39:49]: Right. Well, and. And the thing about it too is that it's like the other argument we get is like, well, I should be able to hang out with my friends.

Nicole [00:39:57]: Yeah, go to dinner.

John [00:39:58]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:39:58]: Go do normal things.

John [00:40:00]: Go golfing, go whatever. Yeah. Whatever you want to do. Like have a. Have a book club or whatever.

Nicole [00:40:06]: If you can only have fun by going out and drinking.

John [00:40:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:10]: Or going out and putting yourself in precarious situations that are disrespectful to your relationship, then you need to reeval what fun is in your life.

John [00:40:20]: Yeah. Because you can have like even the same thing. It's like, you know, I think it's important for guys to have guy. Guy friends in their life and like guys. Guys night. Right. But it doesn't have to be out.

Nicole [00:40:34]: Right.

John [00:40:34]: It could be go to each other's house. Yeah. We're going to hang out, we're going to go to the gym, we're going to go for a hike. We're going to have guy time to talk and women also to have that time. But it doesn't have to be in an inappropriate place.

Nicole [00:40:47]: Right.

John [00:40:47]: That's. That's the whole contention with it. Because. So.

Nicole [00:40:50]: Yeah.

John [00:40:51]: Yeah. So I feel like the people that argue against this just are like, not. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Nicole [00:40:57]: No.

John [00:40:57]: It's a minor set of restrictions which you shouldn't even feel because they shouldn't matter that much.

Nicole [00:41:04]: Right.

John [00:41:04]: You know, like, I can understand, like maybe where it's like a bachelorette party or bachelor party and then you turn it down because you don't do that in your relationship. But that's the minor thing to give up in order to be respectful to your partner.

Nicole [00:41:23]: Right. And your friends should respect that decision too.

John [00:41:25]: Yeah. And just even in general, I mean, if more people thought that way, less people would have bachelor parties and bachelorette parties, because those are just on the whole, not good ideas. Right. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:41:36]: It's like pretending to be single one last time when you haven't been single anyway and you're about to be lockdown.

John [00:41:43]: Yeah. It's a very good way to mess up your life.

Nicole [00:41:47]: Yeah.

John [00:41:47]: Like, it's not necessarily going to happen, but it. But it has happened. We know people it's happened to.

Nicole [00:41:52]: That's true.

John [00:41:53]: And it can happen. And it's a very. It's like a very dangerous thing to do Right. Before you're gonna get married. So it's just not a good idea. Like whoever came up with that bad idea, you know, have a joint celebration, whatever. Have a party. Like, you can celebrate that you're gonna get married. You can even hang out with your guy friends or girlfriends. But in a. In a. You don't have to call A bachelorette party or bachelor party in an appropriate place.

Nicole [00:42:17]: Right.

John [00:42:18]: You know, it doesn't have to be in Vegas at the bar, at the nightclub or. Or whatever. So. So these are just bad ideas in general that.

Nicole [00:42:26]: True.

John [00:42:26]: That people are holding on to. So.

Nicole [00:42:30]: Yep. I agree.

John [00:42:31]: Yeah. I think that pretty much covers all the things I think. I mean, what are all the. Are there any other arguments that you.

Nicole [00:42:39]: No, but I was going to say, if you have. After everything we've said, you have a argument that you think is legitimate that isn't the things that we've already said, let us know. Maybe we'll do a whole nother episode

John [00:42:52]: or come on the podcast. If you're in San Diego, come and debate us on the podcast. Because, I mean, not even debate. I mean, we want to hear it. Like, we'll listen and talk it out. And if you have something that's actually reasonable, we'll change our minds. If you can change your minds, we're open to being our mind. It's just that from all the angles we've looked at this, I've never seen any argument that holds any water to what we're saying. It just. It makes logic sense and living it.

Nicole [00:43:19]: You don't feel restricted, right? Like, you really don't. Like, I'm not just saying that because you're here. If I felt restricted, I would say it.

John [00:43:27]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:27]: I don't feel restricted. Like I said, I don't even look at your location.

John [00:43:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:32]: Even though I have it all the time, I don't need to.

John [00:43:35]: I think. I think people that do feel restricted is because as a society, we've normalized a lot of the stuff that shouldn't be. So they feel like I'm entitled to do this kind of stuff.

Nicole [00:43:45]: Right.

John [00:43:46]: Even though it's disrespectful, even though it's not cool.

Nicole [00:43:49]: Just because it's normalized doesn't mean it's normal.

John [00:43:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:52]: Like that it's the correct thing to do.

John [00:43:54]: Yeah. And I hear it all the time. Like, almost every time that we talk to people that we know and there's an issue with infidelity or whatever, it always started out from one of the things.

Nicole [00:44:08]: Yeah. And we're always like, put the rules.

John [00:44:10]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:11]: Put the rules in line.

John [00:44:13]: Yeah. And it always started out as something that seemed like an innocent thing, but then look what happened. It got to this because even things like. Like for instance, here's a good one. I won't call out a name, but that is a recent one that we had just dealt with is like, let's say that you work somewhere and your boss is of the opposite sex and you're texting your boss about work stuff. Well, if you have a rule that you show all of the conversations between opposite sex with your. With your partner. Right. Then you're not going to have a problem there. Right, right. That's. I think that's important. Right. It just made me realize I have one to show you. Just work related, but just, you know, just because. But that's.

Nicole [00:44:59]: But sometimes they're not work related, though.

John [00:45:03]: What are not work related sometimes? Oh, the ones that I show you. Yeah, that I show you. Because they're. Yeah, because. Because people message me crazy shit, so. Yeah, but.

Nicole [00:45:11]: And I've gotten some crazy shit sometimes too, so.

John [00:45:13]: But my point is, is that like there's situations that we know of where that's escalated into inappropriate situations.

Nicole [00:45:22]: Yeah.

John [00:45:22]: But it's because it happened in secrecy.

Nicole [00:45:25]: Right.

John [00:45:25]: If you have the simple safeguard of, even though you don't need it, of show the texts that come from the opposite sex, then it protects you from that ever happening.

Nicole [00:45:36]: That's true.

John [00:45:37]: You know what I mean? Because it's not something that you intend to happen. But then it happens because it's. Little by little it slips. You get sent a dirty joke and then you laugh about the dirty joke and then you send a dirty joke or whatever it is or a meme or something like that. And then now you're having sexual conversations with your boss.

Nicole [00:45:53]: Yeah.

John [00:45:53]: And that's not good.

Nicole [00:45:55]: No, that's never good. Anyway, even if you're single, don't get involved with people that you work with. Not a good idea.

John [00:46:00]: Yeah, yeah, but I, but like I said, I don't know of any, any good argument against what we're.

Nicole [00:46:06]: No, but if you have one.

John [00:46:07]: Yeah, I would be open to hearing.

Nicole [00:46:09]: Yeah, we're open to hearing. All right, time to go. I'm hungry.

John [00:46:14]: Okay. Yeah, I'm hungry too. All right, that's it for this week. If you have a question for us or argument or food again, you can email us, you can meal us, you can mail us. Mail us at betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com and check out our website at betterthanperfectpod.com Leave us a

Nicole [00:46:35]: review, like, and subscribe.

John [00:46:38]: That's right. That's waiting for it. See you next week.