Nicole [00:00:00]: If you came to me and you were like, this genuinely hurt me. I'm gonna care about hurting you. Like I'm gonna wanna not do the thing that hurt you.

John [00:00:07]: What's even a lot better a lot of times is just to be like, this is how I feel. And for the person to care about how you feel. You can feel a lot of things for a lot of stupid reasons. Sometimes I just wake up in the morning and I feel like shit for no reason at all. But I feel that way, like it doesn't have to be explained or rationalized. Right. Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws we complete than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the better Than Perfect podcast where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:49]: You got it?

John [00:00:50]: I didn't. Just a little stumble. Not too bad.

Nicole [00:00:53]: I didn't notice.

John [00:00:56]: All right, today we're going to do some questions from. From you guys. Yeah. That people ask us questions. We have a form that you can fill out from. I think it's from Instagram. They DM us on Instagram the word verdict.

Nicole [00:01:10]: You set all this up. So don't ask me because I have no idea.

John [00:01:14]: But we got a few people that asked some questions, so we're just going to jump into the questions and see where it goes from here. So the first question was should I stay or go? He says. My wife and I seem to have differing opinions about discipline with the kids. I am the stepfather and we have a 14 year old girl, a 13 year old boy and an 8 year old daughter. The 14 year old treats the house like a hotel and if I want to discipline them, I have to do anything but take her phone away. Then I have to do anything but take her phone away. My wife and I argue and when I find out that they have a system between them where football and phone access is limited, linked to good school behavior and not disrespect, and I know nothing about it. What am I supposed to do if I feel I am out of the loop? This is so annoying. And I'm wondering is it worth it no matter how much I love my wife? So basically he's in a situation with his wife. His wife has three kids. The 14 year old, he can do any his discipline, he can't take away the phone and that's the most.

Nicole [00:02:27]: And they don't align on the discipline

John [00:02:29]: because they only take away the phone for school grades, not for disrespect.

Nicole [00:02:35]: Right. And he wasn't aware of those things. Some things were behind his back that he didn't know. Like between the other parents, I'm assuming, like the biological parents.

John [00:02:45]: Yeah. So apparently he's probably getting disrespected and then he needs some kind of consequence. The only consequence that matters to a 14 year old, which is taking away the phone.

Nicole [00:02:53]: Sure.

John [00:02:53]: And he can't do that.

Nicole [00:02:54]: Right.

John [00:02:55]: So you're the expert on this subject.

Nicole [00:03:02]: So when John first read this to me, I said that I would leave.

John [00:03:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:09]: My decision has not really changed, but obviously we don't have a ton of context, like.

John [00:03:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:18]: But strictly my assumptions. I mean, they're married.

John [00:03:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:25]: I'm sure there have been talks about aligning on discipline. That they still don't align on discipline, which is a problem.

John [00:03:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:33]: That they haven't like come to a conclusion together. Because maybe there are some things that he might need to be a little bit more lenient on potentially. I don't know. And maybe there's things that she does need to change because she's in a new relationship. And, you know, he is involved in this family now and he deserves to be a part of that as well, too. So they obviously haven't come to some agreement on what the discipline is going to look like after this long. And he's not being kept in the loop of the things with the biological parents. So having, you know, been in his position before, it is impossible to be in a parental role.

John [00:04:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:20]: Without pretty much all of the parental responsibilities. Authority and. Yeah. And like, authority and, you know, like being able to really make those decisions and have them stick and, you know, and it's also impossible to live in a house.

John [00:04:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:40]: As an adult where you feel like everyone else makes the rules that you have to follow. Like you're the child.

John [00:04:48]: Right, Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:50]: When you're supposed to be part of the family unit, not the person that's supposed to follow everyone else's rules. And I get that, like when you marry someone with children, there are things that have gone on before you were there. Right, I understand that. But you can't bring someone else into the equation and expect them to just fall in line with everyone else. Even though, like, as a step parent you understand that they're gonna be things that you weren't there for and things that you don't understand. Which. That's normal.

John [00:05:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:28]: But if you want to be a blended family, there are a lot of things that have to happen. And it sounds like those things aren't really happening for him. Because if he's questioning it, even though he loves his wife so much, it makes me feel like it has to be pretty bad for him in whatever ways where maybe he's losing himself, maybe he feels like he doesn't fit into the equation and he's supposed to just fit in with everyone else and he doesn't feel considered or respected and he doesn't have authority to make parental decisions, or if he is disrespected, he can't. The disciplines that he's giving maybe aren't effective. And so it keeps happening. And so that's why there's still all these problems. So that's why I would say to leave. Yeah, I know it's really hard to hear, and I know, you know, we talk about not leaving in relationships, but again, I say that because it seems like his wife is potentially not being receptive and just doing what she wants to do in regards to her kids. And I get that they're her kids, but it's like if you go through the point of getting remarried again, you are bringing someone else into your child's life and they do need to be treated as such. Like that they're part of the family.

John [00:07:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:01]: Like, obviously some things can happen and different. There are different dynamics to being a step parent. And you might start with one and then it changes into another one. Like, that's normal. But what I fear for him is that it's not going to get better if he's still struggling with these things to the point where he feels like leaving is his only option. Because that makes me feel like he's had the conversations or tried to have the conversations, and he's just ended up in the same loop. Which kind of reminds me again of, like, even our conversations. Right. With the things that we have gone through recently where it's like, if you don't feel listened to, you're in the same loop, having the same conversations over and over again because nothing's actually being fixed.

John [00:07:53]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:54]: So that's where I'm at with my decision. And maybe you have a different perspective, but that's just my point of view. Again, we don't have the full, full story.

John [00:08:08]: No, we don't have the. Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:11]: And I'm not trying to act like he should just lightly leave. I don't take it lightly. But having been in his shoes, in my own way, you didn't even make me feel the way that he feels because you did integrate me. And so. But if that didn't happen, I really don't know if, like, if nothing changed or like, if we didn't have a conversation and you, like, understood where I'm coming from and make some changes, like if I just showed up and just, you know, never felt, like, integrated and like an actual parent and that we didn't discuss and, like, agree on things or disagree or, you know, like, figure out a compromise or whatever.

John [00:08:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:00]: I don't think our relationship can last because when you have a relationship that involves children, love between the two of you is not enough, because that's not just your life. Like, your life involves children as well, so. And again, being a step parent, the dynamic can change. I mean, I have learned it can change in an instant. So, you know, But I feel like where he's at just seems like a really tough place.

John [00:09:33]: And he's got three kids.

Nicole [00:09:35]: Three? Yeah.

John [00:09:36]: So, like. And one of them's six or whatever. So it's gonna be a long time of this if it doesn't get fixed. Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely more on the, like, you know, like, just in general, aside from cheating and, you know, abuse, you don't leave a. You don't leave a marriage. Right. But, like, obviously there's limits. Right? Obviously. At some point it becomes. Even though this is going to sound really weird, it does become some level of emotional abuse.

Nicole [00:10:08]: I was going to say, like, neglect.

John [00:10:10]: Yeah, at some point. Right. It's like, it's not like a quick decision. Like, okay, we had an argument about this. I'm late. Or like, I'm frustrated with the situation. Like, it has to be an ongoing thing where you're really not being included and not really being taken to account.

Nicole [00:10:28]: Right.

John [00:10:29]: That. And you've tried to make the steps to fix the thing like this should be. We don't know where he's at with this. But like you said, I think your read is probably correct, is that it's probably. He's probably at the end of his rope on this because it sounds like he is.

Nicole [00:10:41]: Right.

John [00:10:42]: But I would say that, you know, it's. Well, like, it's like if someone. If you got married to someone and they had a dog and the dog wasn't potty trained and just shit all over the place and pissed everywhere. And you're like. And then.

Nicole [00:10:55]: And then they're like, it's fine.

John [00:10:57]: Yeah. And then you have. And you have to clean it up. True, true. And then you're like, no. And then it's like, like, you can't. You can't live like that. You cannot live. Like, if they're not willing to do something. You can't live like that. You can't have a house where a dog is shitting everywhere, right? Like.

Nicole [00:11:14]: Right.

John [00:11:14]: It just. It doesn't work, right? Like, no matter how hard you try, you can't. You can love the person, but you're not going to be able to live like that, right? And. And a child can be worse than that. Can be worse. Because a child, right, no discipline and disrespect and making a mess all over the house and whatever. And there's nothing you can do, right? You're just a prisoner.

Nicole [00:11:38]: And that's his home too. Like, that's where he comes home to try to decompress. And if he can't decompress, then where does he have.

John [00:11:48]: There's no space. You can't live under those circumstances, right?

Nicole [00:11:53]: Like, someone's gonna crack. And that seems like where he's at.

John [00:11:57]: But the proper thing to do is to, like we talked about in the last episode, have vulnerable conversations. This is how I feel. Not reactive. Because maybe he's also getting reactive. You don't know. Like, maybe he's like, this is bullshit. Like, what? You know, like. And that's not going to solve the problem is to be like. To talk to his wife. And I think a lot of times, even because we were having kind of a similar discussion about ultimatum type of scenarios, like, there's a lot of scenarios where instead of giving someone an ultimatum, like, if you don't do this, I'm going to do this. It's better to just be like, have the conversation with them as more of a test and be like, this is really important to me. This is hurting me. Like, you know, I. Like, I would like something to be done about this. Like, this is very important. Like letting the partner know that this is. Or the person knows, you have to be a partner, that this is very important to you and it's hurting you, right? And then letting them do what they're going to do and then you're seeing. And then if you've given them time and you've told them those things and then you leave, rather than saying, if you don't do these things, I'm going to leave. That's threatening. That's ultimatum. Nobody likes that. That's not good. But if someone is disregarding things that are important to you that are hurting you and they're not making any attempt, they're really telling you what they think about you. And then that's like, what do you. But I think there's. Before you get to that point where it becomes like really an abuse, an emotional abuse situation. There's a lot of steps in between of working on this and trying to figure this out and stuff. But I agree, if you have a partner that is not going to figure this out at all and you're going to have a house full of children that you cannot discipline that are just going to rule the house, there's no way you can live like that. As much as you might love someone, you cannot live like that. And they're showing that they don't really care about you that much because it's, you know, you can't. You would put someone in that situation where they can't. They have no, no, no power over their own life.

Nicole [00:14:04]: Right, exactly. So, yeah. So I'm like, and I agree with you, I don't think that he should leave right this instant. I think you should have a conversation, a vulnerable conversation.

John [00:14:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:16]: One last, you know, I mean, he is married, so one last, like really good conversation where he feels like he's being vulnerable. He's conveying these things.

John [00:14:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:26]: He's telling her, you know, like, I love you, but I can't live like this. You know what I mean? Sort of like really putting it all out there. And then like you said, seeing, you know, where he's at, like, because, you know, I don't want that to be the case.

John [00:14:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:42]: But I can also see where he's conflicted. I mean, I've been conflicted. You know, when we were going through a lot of things and being like, am I ruining your relationship? Like, because I don't want to ruin your relationship with your daughter. And there's been a lot of stuff that happens. It's like, if I leave, will that give you a better chance? But I don't want to leave you and you don't want me to leave. But it's like at times she's acted like she wants me to leave and so it seems like that's what she wants. And it's like, and I care about your guys relationship whether she wants to have one with me or not.

John [00:15:21]: But I think the key piece is that like, if I am responsive to your situation or not.

Nicole [00:15:29]: True.

John [00:15:29]: Because if I'm like, no, the child can do whatever she wants then.

Nicole [00:15:33]: Right.

John [00:15:34]: You know, versus. Okay, let's put some rules. Like what are the things that need to happen for you? As much as I can. Right. Like there's some things that are. You can't control what the child is going to do. But yeah, but yeah. But I think that's.

Nicole [00:15:47]: Which maybe that's what he's lacking is like, his wife being on his side as well, too. Like, I'm not saying she or you or any, but any parent, like, disregard their children.

John [00:15:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:58]: But if you remarried someone, they do have to be considered and they do have to be integrated, and you do have to come at it as a team.

John [00:16:06]: Well, and that's where. And we've talked about this before, in episodes, the spouse comes first before the children. Even if they're prior marriage children. It doesn't matter. Like, if you marry someone, you're making a lifelong commitment to them to become one with them. So, yes, your children are very important in your life, but your spouse comes first. That has to be the case. Because if you don't do that, then you cannot parent the children. You cannot teach the children the proper way. You don't want the children to grow up and they don't put their spouse first. Like, you'll be divided. They will play you against each other. There's all kinds of reasons. But you made a commitment to your spouse. You have an obligation to your child, but you made a commitment to your spouse. The commitment outweighs the obligation. Like, you still have to fulfill your obligation of being a parent, but you cannot put your child. You cannot put your spouse aside. And that's maybe what happens a lot of times.

Nicole [00:17:05]: Maybe that's what happened to him with

John [00:17:07]: mothers a lot of times too. They put the children first above the spouse.

Nicole [00:17:11]: I can get that. Because it's hard. You brought children into the world. And I do feel like in a lot of instances, mothers have become the more disciplinary parent. Not always, but that tends to be the case. They're just closer to their children, usually in general, probably from like the biological, you know, of having the children physically. But you're right that you can't neglect your spouse. Like, you can't treat them like they don't matter, or they only matter when you want them to or whatever.

John [00:17:49]: They have to come first.

Nicole [00:17:50]: That's not a sustainable relationship at all.

John [00:17:53]: They have to come first. They have to go. You don't have to get married. But if you do get married, your spouse has to come first in your life. It just like it has to be that way. There's no other way that that will ever work for a relationship.

Nicole [00:18:05]: Yeah. And sounds like that's maybe not the case for him.

John [00:18:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:09]: So that's why I do lean towards.

John [00:18:12]: Yeah, because how would you feel if I didn't make you first?

Nicole [00:18:17]: I mean, it Would just feel like you're like, why am I here?

John [00:18:21]: Right?

Nicole [00:18:22]: Like, to just be here, like, so that you have somebody when you're not focused on someone else. That I'm here.

John [00:18:31]: And when there is a conflict between the step parent and the child, then if the. If, imagine, Imagine like, you wouldn't be here if you didn't come first. Because if I took the child's, like, back, like, you know, didn't have your back. If I had the child's back every time there was a disagreement, how could you even handle that?

Nicole [00:18:57]: I mean, I think that you have, like, I'm not saying that if I did something wrong that you should have my back over listening to her. Because that's not. That's. I don't feel like is the right way. Like. But the reality is that a lot of times kids don't know because they haven't learned yet how to deal with interpersonal relationships, how to handle situations. And you as a parent have to teach them how to do that.

John [00:19:29]: Let me, Let me step back a little bit. No, I should have your back all the time. And I'll tell you why. Because let's say that you do something wrong, right? That I know is wrong. That you know is wrong. And the child knows it's wrong. And the child is like, no, she did wrong. If I have the child's back, I'm teaching that child that there's something that can come between us, right? Instead, it doesn't matter. The child has to know that no matter what, my wife comes first. And even if my wife might do things that are wrong sometimes, I'm still going to back her because she's my wife. She's the mother. She's my wife. Right? Whether it's stepchild or not or regular child or not stepchild. However, then in private, I have a conversation with you and we hash it out, we discuss it. Hey, that wasn't right what you did. But not, I have your back to the world. To everyone else, we have a discussion, but to everyone else, always, I have your back.

Nicole [00:20:33]: Which I get that. But I think a better way, in my opinion, would be like, yes, like, maybe she did not handle this properly, but that is my partner and you cannot treat her disrespectfully just because you're upset or whatever. I will have a discussion with her and we will talk about it, but you still can't act poorly towards that person. Does that make sense? Like, because I don't think it's right for, like, kids, reality, like, to be like, if you know it's wrong and I know it's wrong and she knows it's wrong, you shouldn't act like it's not wrong.

John [00:21:15]: What if you don't know it's wrong, though? What if I know it's wrong and she knows it's wrong?

Nicole [00:21:20]: Well, then you can say to her like, you know, that probably wasn't handled in the best way. You're right. But you still can't act this way. Like, you can address that. Like it wasn't handled the right way,

John [00:21:32]: but you believe it was handled the right way. See, that's the issue. That's why I would have your back 100% of the time, and I will have your back 100% time. Because it doesn't matter. Because there have been issues where that has come up. And I've said I'm not saying anything bad about you to a child. Nothing. I'm not admitting any guilt on your part.

Nicole [00:21:54]: I have owned up myself to handling things not in the right way. And I'm also a very receptive person that I feel like if you did come to me and tell me I didn't. If I did, then that's fine. But even if you told her, like, she shouldn't have said that you. Whatever. Like, I don't see anything wrong with that. If you come to me and you have a discussion with me and we talk about it.

John [00:22:20]: Right. That's different.

Nicole [00:22:22]: Or you could even say to her, like, well, her and I have to discuss this, but it doesn't matter what the decision is. You still have to be respectful or whatever. You know what I mean? Because I don't think that it should just be blanketed if I think that you can communicate, like I just mentioned, in a way where even if you still have to have a discussion, that you can still acknowledge it and acknowledge the part that's actually the concerning part. Does that make sense?

John [00:22:56]: Yeah, I guess the thing that I'm saying is that when it comes to taking the sides, I'm always going to take your side as your husband.

Nicole [00:23:05]: But I hate that there's even sides.

John [00:23:07]: I know, but there is.

Nicole [00:23:07]: I don't like that.

John [00:23:08]: I don't like it either.

Nicole [00:23:09]: And I don't think any step parent likes that. I don't know for sure. No step parent wants to feel like their partner chooses them above their child because they understand the connection that a parent has with the child, even if they don't have kids of their own.

John [00:23:24]: Right. But I choose that because it's the right thing to do. And because it's the example to set for the child. Right. Because the child needs to also always choose their spouse and always have their spouse's back and see that two people united in marriage will not be divided by anything, by a child, by whatever. And also that people are fallible. Right. So you're not going to do everything right 100% of the time. I'm not going to do everything right 100% of the time. I'm not only going to back you when you're right, I'm going to back you when you're wrong. Wrong as well. And that might sound controversial and might sound like a silly thing to do, but I don't always know when you're right and you don't always know when you're right or when I'm wrong or when you're right or when you're wrong and I'm right. We don't always know that. So we, as a married unit, we always back each other because we don't always know the truth. But I do always know that I'm going to back you. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:24:19]: But then should he be backing her?

John [00:24:22]: Should who be backing her?

Nicole [00:24:23]: The guy.

John [00:24:24]: He should be, he should be backing his wife for sure. But she's not backing him. Right. Like, like, I guess what I'm saying here is that in that, in that, in that scenario, he's having discussions with her about the, the discipline. She's not, she's not responding to him. She's not doing anything differently right now to the child. Should he be backing her? 100%? Yes. Right. But she, but that, but, but the issue is, like, is more that she should be backing him because if he says, hey, your phone is taken away, then she should be backing him even if she disagrees with him taking away the phone. Even if there's some agreement that the phone doesn't get taken away for this circumstance, it gets taken away from this one. He said it. She can't be divided against him. She can have a discussion with him later and say, hey, that's not what we talked about. Like, that's not cool. Like, don't do that again. Because we have an agreement that the phone doesn't get taken away except for academics, and they can have a debate about that, but she should back him in public to the children, even if he did the wrong thing. Because that's the way to, that's the example to set for the children. And you don't know. That's the thing. If I only back you. When I believe that you're right, that's meaningless to you. Because sometimes you're going to think that you're right and I think you're wrong. And then you're going to feel like I don't back you, like, I don't support you, and maybe you are right in that case and I'm wrong. Like, you were right. I think you're wrong and I don't back you, and then you really feel isolated. But if my commitment is 100% of the time, I back you publicly. Right. Whether it be a child or to anyone else, and privately, we can have a discussion then I never go wrong. Because even if you're wrong and I back to you when you're wrong. Great. But more importantly, if you're right and I thought you were wrong and I backed you, then I avoided real big trouble.

Nicole [00:26:19]: Okay, Makes sense. I think the biggest thing too, with kids is consistency, because that's the most confusing thing. And it's like you need. If you make rules, you need to be consistent, because there have been times where you and I have not been consistent, and that has caused a lot of problems.

John [00:26:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:39]: Like, I've tried to uphold the rules, and then maybe you've been a little bit lenient on the rules, which is not to say you can't be lenient on the rules, but if you do it too much, then they're pointless.

John [00:26:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:51]: Like, kids have to have consistency because then that also helps them feel safe and, like, know what to expect next.

John [00:26:59]: And where I've fallen down to is, like, sometimes when I've been a little bit lenient on the rule, I haven't let you know. Because it's one thing if we're gonna be lenient on the rule and we have a discussion, I say, okay, this is what I'm planning on doing. It's another thing if it's just you're blindsided by it and it's like, oh, wait a minute, I thought we had this agreement and now you're not following this agreement versus we had a discussion about it. We decided, okay, you know, or at least let you know, this is what I'm planning on doing as opposed to just, hey, look, now, now this. Oh, so this thing is not applying anymore or what are we doing?

Nicole [00:27:33]: Yeah, which. That causes problems, too, not only between each other, if you're not communicating and with the kids. And that's a lot, like, a lot of extra stuff thrown in the mix. So, like, the fact that it's not going very well concerns me because it takes a lot of communication just to have a relationship, but it takes even more to have a relationship with someone that has children.

John [00:27:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:00]: And it is the hardest thing. Like, I've been through a lot with you, but being a step parent has been the hardest thing of my entire life.

John [00:28:08]: Yeah, I believe you.

Nicole [00:28:10]: And it's not for the week. That's all I gotta say. And like, I hate when people are like, well, you know what you signed up for. Whatever you don't know.

John [00:28:19]: Not really.

Nicole [00:28:20]: Yeah, there's no way to know. Yeah, there's no way to know what you really signed up for. Because like I said, it can change. It can change at any point.

John [00:28:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:28]: And you are in this weird place of, like, you are a parental figure, but you're not a parent, but you're, like, easily disposable because you're not biologically connected. But then sometimes they want you there more than they want their actual parents. But then sometimes they want nothing to do with you. It's like. And then sometimes you can make a decision, and then sometimes you can't make a decision. It's just not the same.

John [00:28:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:52]: As being a biological parent. And it's a lot harder to navigate in all the ways that you can think of.

John [00:29:01]: Yeah. And I'm sorry that I haven't always understood that that is your experience.

Nicole [00:29:06]: I was trying to tell you.

John [00:29:08]: I know, but I'm sorry.

Nicole [00:29:10]: Thank you. But, yeah, so, I mean, I'm hoping he. That guy can have a conversation and maybe they can work it out, but if they can't, I wouldn't blame him for leaving. Yeah, it's hard. It's harder because he loves his wife, obviously he loves her and their relationship that they have romantically, but it's just not sustainable when you have all these other outside influences that literally live in the house with you that feel completely out of your control. Totally. And he will lose himself and it will cause more problems.

John [00:29:48]: And that's where we got it. Kind of got off on the tangent of, like, your spouse has to come first. Like, she chose to marry this man. So when you choose to marry him, you have to now say, this person's going to come before my kids. I'm going to back him before my kids. Like, which is probably a hard choice for a lot of people to make. It sounds kind of crazy to some people that are listening to this. But then don't get remarried.

Nicole [00:30:11]: Right. You can date until after your kids are grown up or something.

John [00:30:14]: But if you're going to make the choice to Dedicate your life and commitment to someone, they have to become number one. Otherwise you don't have to make the choice. But if you're making, because when you're making the vows, that's what you're saying.

Nicole [00:30:27]: True.

John [00:30:27]: You're not saying, unless my kid is, my spoiled kid doesn't want to be disciplined. And then, or whatever, you know, like you're, you're, you're saying that. So that's why I'm like, that's why it creates the problem. Because if she was really operating that way, then she would care about that's affecting him. And then.

Nicole [00:30:46]: Well, and I think what you said actually is very important. Like if you want to just focus on your kids, which there's nothing wrong with that, then don't get married or you know, date, like be boyfriend and girlfriend and you know, like when you don't have your kids or whatever, then hang out with your spouse if that's what you want and that's what they want. But like you can't, like if you want to just focus on your kids, then just focus on your kids and don't, don't even worry about dating honestly is the best way.

John [00:31:19]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:31:20]: Like, not like a parent doesn't deserve love. But like you said, if, if you want to invest most of your time and energy into your children, which is totally fine, then just do that until they're old enough and then you can date if that's what you want to do.

John [00:31:34]: Yeah. All right, should we go to the other question?

Nicole [00:31:37]: Yeah.

John [00:31:38]: Okay, let me see. So this one says in past relationships. This is from Rad. He says in past relationships I was an over giver. Always doing and caring more without getting the same effort. When I brought this up repeatedly, it led to arguments in the beginning. I start easy and don't care much about her reciprocation. But eventually I feel taken for granted. Granted, leaving me feeling powerless. I've moved past resentment toward my exes and accept that it was my fault. Learning from John Saunders concept of radical self responsibility and masculinity, my questions why does this pattern keep repeating? Is it a self esteem issue or a lack of masculinity leadership? How do I fix it? And I don't want to settle for this again. I want better than perfect relationships at any stage. How do I communicate that I still value her while also asking for more investment, effort and reciprocation.

Nicole [00:32:45]: So I think it's a lack of boundaries. Like and because there's nothing wrong with giving. And it's obvious he wants to give and he's that type of person.

John [00:32:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:59]: But I think early on you can see if someone's taking advantage of that or not. And sometimes I think the thing is too to remember is that sometimes you're going to be giving a lot in a relationship, and then sometimes you might not be giving as much as you should be giving, like it's going to wax and wane, and that's normal. But if you feel like you're the only one giving in a relationship and the other person's just taking, then I feel like it's sort of like a boundaries problem because he's not removing himself from the situations or he's not creating, like, actions within himself to prevent being taken advantage of.

John [00:33:49]: Well, and I'll say, you know, I don't like taking advantage of because I don't believe you can be taken advantage of. And this is where I'll go with this, is that this is classic nice guy syndrome. He's not giving, he's trading. There's a difference between giving and trading. If I give you something, I don't expect anything in return. If I trade something with you, it's transactional. I expect something in return. The problem with nice guys is that they're trading but calling it giving. It's a covert contract. They're saying, I'm going to do this for you and I want this back. But they're not saying it. They're not making the contract known. It's covert. It's not an overt contract. It's covert. So they have expectations attached, strings attached to what they're giving. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be in a relationship that you shouldn't be in a relationship and you love someone and you do things for them and they don't do anything for you, but you shouldn't expect that. And that's not why that shouldn't be your motivation for doing things. And if you're getting resentment about it and you feel like you're being taken advantage of, then you're not really giving. You're transacting. And it's fine to transact from time to time, right? Like, if you say, hey, I'll give you a back massage and you give me a back massage, that's fine. But it's fine if you make it known. It's not fine if I give you a back massage and then I'm huffing and puffing in bed because I'm like, she never gives me a back massage. I do all this stuff for her, and she doesn't do anything for me. It's not a gift anymore. Now, like you said before, now it's being used against you. It's being held against you because there's an expectation attached to it. Right? And so his problem is that he's not really giving, he's trading. And what he needs to figure out is, like, when you have needs that need to be met, you might need to negotiate for those needs. Right. You might need to say, hey, this is what I need from you. I need to. Can we transact in this way? Like, I give you this and you give me this. I fulfill your needs and you fulfill my needs. But if you just love someone and you just want to give them things, then you have to do it with no strings attached. And you have to be like, I don't need anything back for this. I just want to celebrate who you are. I just want to show you my love, and I don't want anything back. And so when I hear a guy talk about it this way, it means that he's a nice guy. And nice guys aren't really nice because they are trying to get something back and they believe they're owed something and they get resentful. And this happens a lot of times. Not saying it's happening in this case, but a guy will go on a date with a girl and then expect sex.

Nicole [00:36:33]: Yeah.

John [00:36:33]: Right. And then he gets like most guys, but then he. When he doesn't get it, he gets angry and then he treats her like crap, or he calls her, makes fun of her or says something about her or whatever. Like, tries to get, are you ugly anyway? Or you owe me half of this frozen yogurt. Right. But. But that's not really nice. That's not a kind person. That's someone who's deceitful. It's disguised. I don't think he's intending to be that way, but he asks it like an issue of masculine leadership. And yeah, it is. It is a masculinity issue because you are not being forthright. So say what you want as a man. This is what I want. Don't just expect that it's going to happen because you have given something, because you're just not really giving. It's transacting.

Nicole [00:37:26]: Yeah. I feel like I viewed it, maybe it's because of what we've been going through lately differently.

John [00:37:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:34]: Because I think that you can give to people and you can still be hurt that it's not reciprocated, especially from your partner. Right. Or, like you're not getting the same energy back. But yes, like if you're doing it just to get something, then that's wrong. But I guess it made me think about like our, what we went through. And I felt like I gave you so much and you weren't listening and I didn't feel appreciated and you know, those sort of things. And I didn't have good boundaries. Like I didn't, you know, remove myself or whatever. Like got to a point to let you know how serious it was. And so I guess I viewed it through that lens of like, maybe he is giving to people that don't align with the type of relationship that he wants. Like, maybe he's giving all of this to somebody and then they're not treating him in a way that he likes and he's just trying to give in order to get the person to act that right way. But I guess that's still kind of nice guy situation. But I guess I just viewed it more from like, you can give somebody everything because you care so much about them and they can still like not appreciate you in that way. And a lot of times that is like, you have to learn when to give and when is probably not the best time to just give everything to somebody if they're treating you in a way that you don't like.

John [00:39:20]: And I think maybe the way to resolve it is to think about it in terms of like there's you giving to someone because you love them and you're giving without expectations. And there's needs that you have that are real needs that are not being met.

Nicole [00:39:38]: Right.

John [00:39:38]: And those are two separate things. And you giving to them doesn't mean that they have to give back to you in the same way. Or like that's not. But you having needs that aren't being met is something that does become, like you said a boundary type of thing is like, okay, I don't expect that you're gonna give me something or treat me a certain way because I'm giving you all these things. But I do expect that these needs that I have need to be respected, need to be treated in a certain way, needed to be talked to in a non reactive way that these things are being met.

Nicole [00:40:16]: Which I guess that's what I'm thinking of. It's like I would give to you the things that I would want because again, that's how I operate. Not because like I want you to do them back, but because like that's how you want. Like I'm gonna give you the same high quality of what I would want back.

John [00:40:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:36]: And I'm not expecting you to give me the exact same thing back, but it's like, like you said, I was expecting you to, I guess, like, understand me at least, or, like, care in a way that when we had those disagreements, you weren't showing up. And so, and sometimes too, you feel like, oh, well, if you just keep giving or you keep, like, showing up and you keep doing what you're supposed to be doing because that's all that matters anyway. You're hoping that the person will finally get it eventually. But again, that's where I feel like it's a boundaries thing. Like, you can't keep doing the same thing, expecting something different. And I don't know if he's, like, having conversations with her. I don't know what he means by giving either, because, like, is it physically gifts or is it like he's giving, like, understanding and appreciation and all these things?

John [00:41:35]: Right. I see what you're saying.

Nicole [00:41:36]: And he's not getting those back because that's a boundary thing. Right.

John [00:41:40]: But that is also a transactional, like a negotiation thing, is, like, this is how we should conduct our relationship. I, I, I'm going to treat you with respect. And, and I also want to be treated with respect in or in turn, like those.

Nicole [00:41:55]: I mean, I feel like that's just common sense, though. I guess that's where I'm confused. But yeah, maybe it is, like you said, like, maybe it is a typical nice guy sort of thing.

John [00:42:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:05]: And I'm just viewing it from a different lens because of what we've been going through recently. And I understand how he feels because if, if it was from that perspective, because I do feel like I gave you everything.

John [00:42:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:17]: That I had and I gave you the answers to your problems and you just didn't listen. You know what I mean? And you didn't understand and you didn't appreciate it and value it. And, but ultimately, too, that's not sustainable. So it's like that would have ended our relationship eventually too. Like I said in the other episodes, like, you know, we, we wouldn't, I couldn't have felt, not listened to and underappreciated and not valued or listened to by you forever.

John [00:42:50]: And, and here's the thing about that, actually, that I think this is a good. Because I meant to say it in the other episodes. Is that a thing that I've learned is that that is your experience. That's how you felt about it. Right. And so it doesn't matter if I think that shouldn't be the case. I'm not saying that I think that, but I'm saying it doesn't. What I had to come to terms with is, it doesn't matter. I don't want you to feel that way. How can I change it so that you don't feel that way about that situation? Right. Because regardless of. Because if I think, oh, I'm doing all the right things I'm giving all the right things I'm doing, I can think that. But you can feel differently about.

Nicole [00:43:39]: That also shows that you only care about yourself. Because if you don't care about how the person feels.

John [00:43:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:46]: And granted, we've talked about this, and I do feel like it's a slippery slope because some people, again, will turn anything into a problem.

John [00:43:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:57]: I mean, even when you're being reactive. Honestly, that's what reactive people do. And if a reactive person is doing it, then it probably is manipulation. Like, I'm not gonna lie, because there are people that use, oh, this hurt me. Because again, like, I could say, like, I don't. That shirt's not my favorite. And you could be like, how could you say that? This is the shirt I picked out. Like, that is not genuine.

John [00:44:20]: Right. It's not genuine hurt.

Nicole [00:44:22]: Like, you can't expect somebody to be like, oh, you're right. I shouldn't have said anything at all about your shirt. Like, you can't have people walk on eggshells.

John [00:44:30]: Right. You can't be offended by everything. That's offense. It's not hurt.

Nicole [00:44:35]: So I feel like when people are reactive and they're hurt by every little thing, that's where it's kind of dangerous because you're not talking about that. But people might be confused because people do weaponize that.

John [00:44:48]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:49]: As well, too.

John [00:44:50]: Right, Exactly. Because then it's like, oh, like, you're not creating emotional safety for me. We talked that. We did an episode on that, and it's like, well, yeah, but you just, like, you're so fragile. Like, everything is like, you're making it where I can't even do anything right. Or say anything, which is not. It's not right.

Nicole [00:45:07]: There is no emotional safety unless you just don't talk at all. But, yeah, but I'm not saying that. But like you said, it's like, if you came to me and you were like, this genuinely, like, hurt me.

John [00:45:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:17]: I'm going to care about hurting you. It doesn't matter. Like, I'm going to want to not do the thing that hurt you if it's the legitimate thing. Not like a reactive response or even.

John [00:45:27]: What's even a lot better. A lot of times is just to be. And not even to be like, this thing you did hurt me, but just to be like, this is how I feel. A lot of times that is even better. And for the person to care about how you feel. You can feel a lot of things for a lot of stupid reasons. Sometimes I just wake up in the morning and I feel like shit for no reason at all. But I feel that way.

Nicole [00:45:52]: That's true.

John [00:45:52]: Like, it doesn't have to be explained or rationalized. Right. It's like, but I feel that way. But I could blame it on people. I can blame it on.

Nicole [00:45:58]: Yeah, as long. As long as you don't blame it on people.

John [00:46:00]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:46:01]: Because sometimes it is like.

John [00:46:03]: But we should always.

Nicole [00:46:04]: Victim mindset as well, too.

John [00:46:06]: Exactly. When you start to blame, then it becomes victim mind. And that's where. Again, this is where what he's saying gets into victim mindset. Because then he's like, oh, well, this. She's making me feel this way. Because she's not reciprocating.

Nicole [00:46:19]: Yeah. Then leave her.

John [00:46:20]: Yeah. You don't have. You don't have to be like you're being resentful. If you're in a relationship where you just love someone, you're like, oh, I just want to shower you with gifts and affection and love. Right. And you give them all those things and you enjoy doing that. But then you're also like, okay, but my needs aren't being met. Okay, you can still love them, but you don't have to be there. You don't have to be in a relationship. But if you resent them because they're not, because you have an expectation, then it's not really love. It's not really giving.

Nicole [00:46:45]: Right.

John [00:46:46]: It's like, that's not it. Like, it's. You know, you can. You can have both of those things. Like, you can be a giving person, but most of the time in the situation, the giving person's not really giving person. They're a transacting person. And that's the thing. That's where the nice guy syndrome.

Nicole [00:47:00]: Especially if you're not, like, just leaving. Because I think the difference is if you're giving and you're starting to feel upset because it's not reciprocated. Like, a true giving person would just be like, okay, this isn't for me. Like, not because they're not giving me the same things back, but because, like, this isn't how I want to feel in a relationship, like, you know, I want somebody that appreciates the things that I do. Which, again, it's not, like, for appreciation, but. No, but it's, you know, like, if there's something. If you're doing all this stuff and it feels like it's hindering your relationship instead of making you guys closer, then that seems like a relationship problem. Like, you should leave.

John [00:47:43]: And you can also be like, I like to make this person feel good.

Nicole [00:47:46]: Right. But if I don't feel good.

John [00:47:48]: Right. Or. But. But you could be like, I like to be in a relationship where someone makes me feel good also, so I don't want to be in this relationship.

Nicole [00:47:54]: Right.

John [00:47:55]: Like, then that's a fine thing. That's not, you know, that's not a contradiction. You know, it's like. But it's like, the thing is, like, when you're giving someone and you're expecting something, you think that you're doing something, and you're actually erasing what you're doing. It's just like when you. When you go somewhere and they turn around the little thing and they're like, for a tip, right?

Nicole [00:48:14]: Oh, oh, yeah.

John [00:48:15]: And you're like, okay, well, they're like, oh, yeah, they're being so nice to you, and they're such good service. And then they're like, turn around the thing, like, if you want to. Or like, there's just one question for. Just has a question for you before. And then you're like, okay, now it's now the gig. I don't feel like you did anything for me. I feel like you did something to get something from me because you asked me. Now, if I give you a tip and you didn't ask for it, great, that's fine. But if you asked for it now you've changed the.

Nicole [00:48:41]: Well, now you can't tell if it's genuine or not, which is what the nice guys have a problem with. It's like, is this a genuine gesture or are you expecting something?

John [00:48:51]: And that's what the holding it against you feels like, too. Right. Because I realized that I was doing this to you in a way. Because it's like, I'm doing all these nice things for you.

Nicole [00:48:58]: Yeah, it's like, are you doing them just so you have something in your bank to be like, I did this for you, and I did this for you.

John [00:49:03]: If I bring it up in a conversation right then. Well, as a defense, right then it becomes. Now it's like, oh, I see. Like, this is all, like, you want something for this Right. Like there's a price attached to this. Right. It's not free. I thought this was a gift. I thought it was free. But if you're saying, like, how could you act this way when I did all these things for you, now there's a price. You want me to act differently. That's why you did all the things for me. No matter what it is, if you have some expectation, there's some price, and you're right in feeling that, it feels like it's being held against you because you are right. I was wrong. It is being held against you. I'm not intending to do it that way, but the moment I decide to cash in the good things I've done in order to win an argument, get out of jail free, or win an argument get out of jail free, like you said, or like in some way.

Nicole [00:49:55]: Well, there have been times I told you to stop doing the things that you're holding against me. Because I was like, I'd rather you not do them than hold them against me.

John [00:50:02]: Right. Because it feels like there's some obligation

Nicole [00:50:05]: or debt as opposed to, I'm just gonna. I can't ever be upset because these things exist.

John [00:50:12]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And what I'm wanting to do in this situation is trying to express to you that, no, this is the evidence that I love you because I do these things. But that's not. It doesn't come across that it's better to just not even say those things at all.

Nicole [00:50:29]: I love you so much, I want to make you feel that way.

John [00:50:31]: Exactly. Yeah. But that's. But that's the. I think that's the big.

Nicole [00:50:36]: I mean, I wonder. I mean, I guess maybe you feel like it's the nice guy thing, and

John [00:50:41]: maybe it is, but I mean, if you feel like you're being taken advantage of, you're a nice guy. Like, if you ever feel like someone could take advantage of you, you are expecting things from people and resenting them when they don't give them to you, you're making covert contract. Because otherwise you're not going to feel that way. Because a person that has their self esteem intact and is not a nice guy, when they're being not treated well, they leave. They create boundaries. They tell the person, I'm not being true. They say the thing instead of hold the thing and then explode. And he just even said, he's like, oh, at the beginning of the relationship, I ignore it. I don't care. And then eventually it wears on me and I'm. Because it's not being reciprocated and then I have a discussion, I get upset about it. Right? So that is the indicator that it's like, but if you're secure in your, in your self esteem, then, hey, if someone's not treating you the way that you want to be treated, that's like the way that you should be treated, then you just part ways with them. You're not angry, you're not resentful. You're like, this isn't working for me.

Nicole [00:51:49]: Yeah.

John [00:51:50]: Like I want to treat you, but it's not like, I love you, I want to give you things, but this is not working for me.

Nicole [00:51:56]: Right.

John [00:51:56]: At all. But I don't expect anything because I gave you something.

Nicole [00:51:59]: Relationship is not fulfilling.

John [00:52:00]: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:52:02]: That makes sense.

John [00:52:05]: All right. Anything else you got? Okay. All right, well, that's it for this week. Follow us@betterthanperfectpod.com the website ask us questions.

Nicole [00:52:17]: We'll obviously answer them on the air here.

John [00:52:20]: Yeah, and you can go if you're on Instagram, that's where on any of our reels, if you DM us the word verdict, I think it is, you can get. We'll send you a page where you can fill in your question and, and we'll read it on the air just like we did these, these questions here.

Nicole [00:52:37]: Or you can email if you're not on Instagram for some reason@betterthanperfectpodcast. Gmail.

John [00:52:43]: That's right. All right, see you next week.