Nicole [00:00:00]: One surefire way for your relationship to not work out is to open it up in whatever way. I feel like we can't talk about this without talking about porn. Be that visual or written. A lot of these extreme things that people feel like they have to introduce into their sexual lives stem from this. It has to get more and more extreme. It has to get more and more crazy. Logically, why did women's ankles make men get boners back in the day?

John [00:00:30]: It was because of the. The preponder of ankle jobs. Anyway, beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:59]: That's right.

John [00:01:00]: And today we're going to talk about

Nicole [00:01:03]: things that we don't do.

John [00:01:05]: Yeah. Yes. We're going to talk about what a bad idea it is to ever introduce someone else into your relationship, whether that be an open relationship or other forms of it. Because it's something that comes up a lot, especially in my coaching of men.

Nicole [00:01:26]: Yeah. Guys really like this idea a lot of the time. Not saying that women don't ever do, but.

John [00:01:31]: But it's definitely more so on the. On the guy side. And I always have to advise coaching clients against this. No matter how they lay it out or justify it or say she's okay with always ends up bad every single time. Right. And I think there's going to be some people that are going to disagree and be like, oh no, you can have these kind of non traditional relationships. I don't know why they're watching this podcast but to argue. But you can say that. But in reality, like maybe there's. I'm not saying there's not some case where someone's having a successful multi. Multi user right now.

Nicole [00:02:11]: Define successful relationship a certain way. I would say they're not having a successful relationship.

John [00:02:16]: And also in timespan. Right. It could be right. That like.

Nicole [00:02:19]: Yeah. Right now.

John [00:02:20]: Right now the shit hasn't hit the fan yet.

Nicole [00:02:23]: Yeah.

John [00:02:24]: But it's just. I think we're just not designed that way.

Nicole [00:02:28]: But it's funny because people think we are.

John [00:02:30]: They do. They think we are. Right.

Nicole [00:02:32]: But in order to have a deep. Which, like okay. To just to define a successful relationship.

John [00:02:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:40]: You have to have deep intimacy and connection and like you said in the other episode, trust all these things.

John [00:02:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:49]: That if you're really being honest, that an open relationship, you really can't have. And I, I say can't. It sounds very definitive, but at the same time, I mean that it's definitive because the only way is by being exclusive.

John [00:03:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:11]: Because once you break the, the trust in a certain way.

John [00:03:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:15]: Where you're involving other people, feelings with other people, are being involved in all that, or, you know, you're having to split your time between multiple people or introduce multiple people into your relationship, now your time is split between your partner and these other people.

John [00:03:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:32]: You can't actually foster the deep relationship that like a true intimate relationship where you feel like two are becoming one has like, I firmly believe that in non monogamous relationships, whatever they look like, you don't have that moment where to become one or four become one or however many wives you have.

John [00:03:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:56]: You're not going to have that because like, human wise, we don't have the capacity to connect with that many people. On that level.

John [00:04:10]: Yeah, on that level.

Nicole [00:04:11]: Because if you think about your relationships in your life, like you have your partner and then you have your family and you have your friends.

John [00:04:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:18]: If you really think about it, each relationship is slightly different, right?

John [00:04:22]: Yes.

Nicole [00:04:23]: And the way that you connect with them and love them is slightly different in every relationship. And so in order to have more than one, like soulmate connection, like partner for life, like we're going to grow old and die together.

John [00:04:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:41]: I just can't see where that is. That would be possible because now not only are you taking this person's everything into consideration and like you said in the previous episode, like, you would do anything for that person, now you're gonna add someone else that you would also do anything for. What if that conflicts with this person?

John [00:04:58]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:04:59]: But what if it, like, what if they just want you to be monogamous now, but you want to have your, you know, your party going on? Like, exactly. Like, it's just a good. Not possible.

John [00:05:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:11]: And I'm not trying to offend people because look, you can have non monogamous relationships, but you just have to accept that they're not going to be as deeply intimate and connected as a monogamous relationship is going to be.

John [00:05:25]: Yeah. I think that's just common sense. Like, I mean, I think that's a good way to put it because it's like we're not telling you what to do. You could do whatever you want to do.

Nicole [00:05:31]: Right.

John [00:05:31]: But you can't have this and that.

Nicole [00:05:34]: Right.

John [00:05:34]: It's just not possible.

Nicole [00:05:35]: You can't be like, they're my soulmates. Like.

John [00:05:37]: Right. And you can't have this. Like you said, you can't be like, I would do anything for this person with a smile on my face. Well, if you have two people and they're both asking you to do two different things, then that cannot exist. It's. It's a, It's a, A logical contradiction.

Nicole [00:05:52]: Well, and you got all these feelings. What if. Yeah, yeah, you're open now, but then what if one of them gets jealous and you don't like that one as much as the other one? Let's be real. Like, you're not going to love or like two separate people that you're being intimate with to the same exact level.

John [00:06:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:10]: There is going to be one that you like more and one that you don't. So, like, what if the one you like a little bit less is like, actually, I just want us to be together? And you would do that for this one, but not this one. It's. Again, I'm not saying you can't do it, but it's not going to be the type of relationship that we're talking about. When we talk about marriage, when we talk about two becoming one, when we talk about, like, completely trusting someone else to take care of you better than you take care of yourself. Like, that's not possible. With. When multiple people are involved. There's way too many cooks in the

John [00:06:45]: kitchen, and people will say, they'll make the argument. They'll say, okay, fine, I agree with you on the relationship sides, but we're just doing sex.

Nicole [00:06:53]: Then you better keep it at that, because it's. I mean, again, do I agree with this? Personally, I would not choose to do those things because, again, feelings can be involved, even if it's just sex. Like, people act like it's not. But when you involve multiple people, you don't know what their level of feelings are going to be.

John [00:07:12]: Oh, and there's. It's. It's a misnomer to think that it can ever be just sex.

Nicole [00:07:17]: That's true.

John [00:07:18]: Ever case.

Nicole [00:07:20]: There's always more to the picture, Right?

John [00:07:23]: It's like being, like, having a different kind of relationship that, let's say a business relationship with someone and you see them all the time and you're always transacting business with them and you're like, oh, they're not friends at all. They're just business, right? No. Someone that you interact with on the regular is going to be more than just business. Someone that you. That you have sex with on the regular is going to be more than just. And even if it's not on the regular.

Nicole [00:07:49]: Vulnerable.

John [00:07:49]: Yeah, you're.

Nicole [00:07:51]: Yeah.

John [00:07:51]: And you're still creating problems because there should be a degree of jealousy involved in your exclusivity with your partner. And so if you.

Nicole [00:08:04]: The healthy jealousy.

John [00:08:05]: Yeah. If you violate that monogamy of the relationship, even just in a sexual way, but not in an emotional way, if you could even make that distinction, but let's say that you could, then you are going to have feelings of jealousy. There's so many things that are going to come up, whether that be feelings of jealousy, feelings of potential inadequacy. Does this partner, do they like this sexual experience with this other person better than me? Are they more attracted to them than me? Do they wish that I was that person or had that length of appendage or whatever it is? Those things are going to come up and there's no way that you could not have those things come up. And so those are going to create rifts and issues. And even if you're not addressing them, you know, even if you're stuffing them down, they're still creating some degree of separation and insecurity and they're eroding trust. Because the more that you have those type of issues, the more that it's going to be difficult to have that level of intimacy. Right. Unless you're going to discuss all those things and then are you going to believe the answers to all of those questions? Like you're creating all of these. Like relationship is already difficult enough, can be difficult enough to navigate, but now you're creating all of these. Yeah. Landmines that, that you're going to step into that. That doesn't make any sense.

Nicole [00:09:32]: Right. You know, and like look like a two person relationship can end in divorce, can end in separation, can end in breaking up.

John [00:09:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:40]: But a monogamous or non monogamous relationship.

John [00:09:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:44]: It is almost guaranteed that it's going to end in some way that is not however many people you have in your polyamorous relationship being together.

John [00:09:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:55]: Like it's just a matter of time because like you said, there's just too many people think about friend groups even like, okay, that's multiple people hanging out. How many people have left the friend group or gotten in a fight with somebody and like, you know, half the friend group leaves and then new people come in. But then like maybe some old people leave. Like yeah, your friend groups change.

John [00:10:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:15]: Because it's a group, it's a group dynamic, like trying to get everybody to degree agree on one thing, especially if something goes wrong and like, yeah, okay. Whose side are you on? Like, that's gonna happen.

John [00:10:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:26]: In a polyamorous relationship as well. Or, you know, opening your relationship. I mean, sometimes it's not even like, you know, a group thing. Sometimes it is like a man or a woman being like, you know, I want to see other people as well. Which you basically just like, stuck the knife in the coffin. If you tell the person that you're with that you want to see other people or.

John [00:10:51]: Right. You're saying you're not enough for me is like, Right. Just as you know.

Nicole [00:10:54]: Right. Ken would be like, it's kind of over.

John [00:10:57]: Sad Ken.

Nicole [00:10:58]: Like, it's. It's kind of over. At that point, you already kind of messed it up.

John [00:11:02]: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And. And we know people there is like, I have had people that I have coached that have done that, and that has been in. You can't come back from that ever.

Nicole [00:11:14]: Trust is broken.

John [00:11:15]: Yeah. Because. Yeah. That now the person is always going to doubt whether that is the case or not or if you're going to

Nicole [00:11:21]: do it, even if you're like, come back and you're like, oh, no, I want to be with you. I figured out that I only want to be with you.

John [00:11:26]: Yeah. And a lot of times what happens is too, like, in. You know, there's a lot of different configurations or scenarios to this. But what I encounter the most, and some of it is because of some of the guys on the Internet that have sort of made this. As if this is the most alpha move to. To have is to have, you know, multiple. Multiple women, like, when you're married to one like that. And, hey, I was guilty of doing this thing. So I'm not going to, like, not here, not in this relationship, but in the past. So I better. I was.

Nicole [00:12:01]: Rodrigo, you got a banana cutter live.

John [00:12:07]: The last episode. Live.

Nicole [00:12:09]: Yeah.

John [00:12:11]: Turn on the live stream. But no, what happens is that a lot of guys will say, okay, she's fine with. It's a one way open relationship. Right. And they're like, she's fine with it. My wife is fine with it. She's okay with it. She'd rather have me. She's like. And what I have to tell them is a couple things is, one is that she's not fine with it. She's accepting it. It's just like the same thing where, like, if you had an employee, right. And you're like. And they have to pay a mortgage and you're their only source of income, and you're like, you need to work overtime. 60 hours. Like you need to work on Saturdays and Sundays. And then they're like, oh, yeah, they're fine with. They accepted it. Yeah, they're looking for another job right now. But in the meantime, while you just sprung this on them, they are going to agree to the thing.

Nicole [00:13:05]: But wait, this is kind of a joke, but I have to bring it up.

John [00:13:10]: Do it.

Nicole [00:13:13]: But what if you do anything for your husband and that's what he wants, and with a smile on your face, you have to do it.

John [00:13:19]: That's actually. It's funny. But also, I have to think about that one.

Nicole [00:13:24]: Obviously, that's not a man that's looking out for you. Obviously, you're still gonna feel like you have to.

John [00:13:29]: You misplaced your tr. I would say in that case, if he's. If he's. Because it's never going to be. Because. No. Well. And here's the thing. And that's good that you brought that up because, see, because the argument. And this is how I always counter these things when these guys say this is. I say, look, okay, so you're the man. You're the authority in a relationship. You love your wife. Right? Okay, so good.

Nicole [00:13:51]: Obviously not.

John [00:13:53]: They say so, but. So you cannot say, like, you might say that she's okay with it, but can you say this is in her best interest? Never. It's never in her best interest. Like, it's some. Some hoops that some people will jump is. Oh, well, because it will. It's. I will be sexually satisfied and she. And it won't be good for her if I'm not like, no, no, it's never. It's never what?

Nicole [00:14:18]: That's.

John [00:14:19]: There's some hoops. There's some hoops of.

Nicole [00:14:21]: That is not a hoop. That is a freaking. I don't even know what to call that.

John [00:14:26]: It'd be better for her overall. Our sex is better together because it's. It reinvigorates our sex life. Because whatever. I've heard them all. But the point is that no matter what it comes down to, you cannot say that it's in her best interest. So you as a man are not serving your wife in the best way. I even had one, I think I've talked about on the podcast before. An example of a coaching client of mine where he had a girlfriend, long term committed relationship that he was going to break up with her because he was moving and like, he was also focused on this business and she was like, no, no, no, you can see other women, you can do whatever. I just want to like Maintain our relationship and you can, like, live your life there. And. And he was like, oh, yeah, Like, I'm doing this for her because the alternative is breaking up, and she doesn't want to, so she'd rather me be with other women or whatever. And I was like, look, you as the man, right? You're older than her. She looks up to you. She treats you as an authority, whatever. You sometimes have to make a choice that is in the person who's in your care's best interest, even if it's against their will in the sense that they don't want this. But you know, what's best for them. Is it best for her in life that she waits around for you for four years or whatever while you go and do your thing and be with other women? You know, I'm saying. And she becomes exclusive to you, but she stays.

Nicole [00:15:55]: And also do whatever somebody wants with a smile on their face. The woman. Or does it only work one way?

John [00:16:01]: It means like, no, it doesn't, because she wants him. No, no, that. That's. That, that's. That's different. Like, I get what you're saying, but. But what I mean is, like, I

Nicole [00:16:11]: had to do both angles because we talked about the other one with the guy wanting to open it, but also she wanted to try to make it work.

John [00:16:18]: Yeah. Well, the thing is, like, you still have to be choosing as a man what is best for your partner. Right. Like, if you're in charge of the relationship and you're the. The one who is leading the relationship, you still have to make the choice that is. Is best for the other. Other person for the entire relationship and for the other person.

Nicole [00:16:37]: But I get that. But it also sounds like, though, now that when it comes to a man, a woman does whatever, but when it comes to vice versa, man gets to decide. Which is not very on brand with what we just said.

John [00:16:52]: Yeah, I think because it's like, there's the.

Nicole [00:16:55]: I mean, and I'm not saying this specifically because, like, if someone doesn't want to be with you, she needs to know that he doesn't want to be with her.

John [00:17:01]: There's the notion. I think it's like, there's the. The notion, the spirit of I would do anything for you with a smile on my face. Like, not. Not holding it as a obligation or as a. Make you feel like it's a burden to me. And then there's the sort of legality of, in practice, what is the operating rules and agreement and how do you operate. And so one of them is of the spirit. Are you participating in the relationship with the spirit of, I would do anything for you, and I would do it gladly with a smile on my face or not.

Nicole [00:17:42]: So it doesn't always mean literally, it's the spirit, right?

John [00:17:45]: Because, I mean, it's good that. I mean, it's good that you called that out because it is a hole in that way of thinking. Because you can't just. As a man, you cannot just do whatever a woman wants to do with a smile on your face. And if it's not what's in her best interest and in the relationships, like, you have to make executive decisions. You can't just do everything that she wants you to do. Right. Like, but you have to have the spirit, the heart of I would do anything for you. Right. Like, meaning that what it comes down to, practical terms, is I would put you above myself. And so when you're making a decision, let's say that you're in a relationship, you're married, and your wife is telling you, I want to spend all this money on this, I don't know, fancy trip that we can't afford, right? And in practicality, you know that that's not going to be good. It's not a good decision. Like, it's not. Then you might have to, like, maybe you forego something of yours that you wanted to buy or to do, and you spend that money on giving her a trip, but not the trip, right? So you're still putting herself, you know, putting her before you. But you can't just accept that request just because it's.

Nicole [00:19:08]: But women do whatever.

John [00:19:11]: Yeah, yeah, that is true. Like, because you are choosing to be under the authority of a man that you're trusting to lead you. Like, he's. You're giving him the authority to be the head of the house, to be the leader. So that. That is true. I mean, unless I. There's some other contradiction there.

Nicole [00:19:28]: I mean, I think that a woman should still, even if they're in a dynamic like us, be able to talk to their partner. Their partner could potentially be wrong and could stop that before just making a decision. Because I feel like, especially for a dynamic like this in the authority thing, ego plays a huge part, right? Like, if you're an authority without ego as much as you can, then that's different. But a lot of men really struggle with authority and ego, and things can be talked about.

John [00:20:02]: That's fine. Like it. What. What it comes down to is at the end of the day, when a decision is made, then that decision is complied with with enthusiasm.

Nicole [00:20:13]: But then it goes back to the guy being like, oh, I want to open the relationship. So it's like, well, yeah. So then when he still wants to,

John [00:20:19]: when we get to that, after you talk to him about it, okay, that's. That' of those things where, okay, like I said, you mistrusted you, you put your trust.

Nicole [00:20:28]: Yeah, but that still sucks. It still sucks that the person you love and you trusted now is being untrustworthy.

John [00:20:34]: But now it is. Now it is not the relationship. Now it is a violation of the tenants of the relationship. Right. Because if you're in a monogamous relationship, you've married and you've made vows which have said that you hold cleave only onto each other and in such forth, then if he's choosing to violate that, then you are also not contractually obligated to your agreement because it's changed. Right. So you get what I'm saying is that now you've chosen to submit to a man's authority and to choose to be with him as your only husband and listen to what he has to say, but then he's violated that he's choosing to. So that would be.

Nicole [00:21:15]: But I think that it's a very simplified version of like, someone that goes into something. Because I think that men don't think about women's perspective in this. Like, if you really put yourself in that woman's shoes, right. You married somebody, you trusted his authority, you trusted him, you only wanted to be with him. And then now he's telling you he wants to be with other people. And like, yes, you can go against your contract of marriage, but you didn't want to.

John [00:21:39]: Yeah, that's what I'm saying is like.

Nicole [00:21:41]: No, I know. I'm just saying I don't think men realize though, that, like, there's still a huge grief and knowing that the person that you wanted to be monogamous with and spend your whole life with is now forcing you basically to get a divorce because of his wants. Yes. You should. Yeah, you should want to know his true actual feelings so that you can make a decision. But it's still completely earth shattering, right. To women who are in this position with these guys that they've dated.

John [00:22:09]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:22:10]: Or they've married, that have been monogamous, and then now all of a sudden they're like, oh, no, I want to go sleep with other people.

John [00:22:17]: Or let me give you an example, that kind of like. To the authority thing. Right. Because no authority is absolute. None. Right. Including a marriage authority. It's not absolute. Let's say that I joined the military, right? And the premise was I'm going to go fight for this country. The premise is also, if I have to kill people in a war and my commander in chief tells me I'm going to go and fight in this war and be deployed there and killed the enemy combatants, I will do it. Right. That's what I'm agreeing to. That's what I'm signing on the dot. I will obey that authority unquestioningly. However, let's say that you're in this situation and your commander says, I need you to kill all those children. You're going to say no. You should say, no, you should disobey that authority. The rules have changed. The agreement has changed. That's not what you gave. Like, when you give authority to someone over you, you give it under a set of conditions, Right. And those set of conditions should be broad enough that it's not ridiculous where you just are like, no, no, no, that's not the agreement, but they are still under a contract. And when the terms of that contract change, your permission can be revoked at that point. You know what I'm saying? And so this is an instance where, hey, the agreement is, we're married. We're one person together in a monogamous relationship. If you want to change the terms of the contract, then my submission to your authority is not necessarily the same answer now, so that's where it does to really lawyer the hell out of. But I think it is important. But just like what we just said, it is consistent. Like, it can be consistent for these things to be true in those situations.

Nicole [00:24:14]: Yeah. Just know if you ever say that to your wife or to your husband that you want to open up the relationship, you've ruined the relationship.

John [00:24:20]: Yeah, yeah. Because you've changed it. You've fundamentally changed it because you've broken one contract and you're trying to create a new contract.

Nicole [00:24:28]: Right.

John [00:24:29]: And that person doesn't have to agree to that new contract or even to continue. Like, you've destroyed the first contract. It doesn't exist anymore. So.

Nicole [00:24:36]: And even if you go forward with that, it's not going to end well either for you or her. It's. It's going to end in you guys breaking up, not being in each other's lives anyway. So if you, if you want to say you want to open the relationship up, you're better off just being like, you know, I don't want this anymore, like, just actually breaking up, even though that's still hard. But honestly too, if you want to open up your marriage.

John [00:25:08]: Huh.

Nicole [00:25:09]: You have other things going on.

John [00:25:11]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:25:12]: Like something else. Something is going on in your inner world that you need to try to resolve first.

John [00:25:21]: Yep.

Nicole [00:25:22]: Because not being happy with the person that you committed to spending the rest of your life with. And randomly there's some underlying thing going on.

John [00:25:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:38]: Like whatever that might be. Might be a midlife crisis, Might be something else. Might be you're feeling inadequate in yourself. Might be you. I don't know. But it's probably something. And so even if, and I know again, like men typically have these feelings more often than women. You owe it to your wife to try to figure this out. Like truthfully, like figure out what the underlying thing is.

John [00:26:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:07]: Because also, I firmly believe, especially if you're over like 20 years old, you can't really blame your hormones going crazy anymore because the older a man gets, the less his stuff starts doing the things that it used to do when he was young. So, like there's something going on. There's some sort of thing going on. If you're willing to blow up your whole life or blow up your marriage to have sex with multiple people.

John [00:26:37]: And you have to realize that it will do that. There's actually a really good book called the Truth by Neil Strauss. It's a sequel to the Game, which is the book about pickup. About game. Right. But he wrote a second book. Not too many people read the second book. It's a volume of a book, but it is about post the game and him trying to try everything. What is the best way to live. He. He lived with three women, had three relationships. That was in a throuple. Yeah, but it was one way. Like it was only they were exclusive to him and he was just with those three. And he tried where both ways open and he tried. I forget all the different scenarios of things and he joined some relationship of two people or like he did all of these different things and he tried to figure out what is the best. What is the best thing, what will make him finally happier, quench his sexual desire and fulfill him the most way. And he never found it throughout the. What he ended up doing at the end of the book spoiler is he ended up going back with his monogamous girlfriend or maybe it was ex wife at this point and just being monogamous. So after all of this, he had all the. Because he had the most. And the reason why this book is actually a good book is because most men don't have this possibility of doing these things, and they fantasize about, oh, this would be better, or, like, this, I'll be happy. And he's already gone through all of that for you in detail. And he had the ability to do that, didn't he? And so you can already learn from his experience that it's not going to do what you think it's going to do.

Nicole [00:28:23]: Right.

John [00:28:23]: Right. It's just going to be a path of misery. Like, it's never going to be enough. It's never going to be that thing. And. But that's a good book. It's a good book to read if you're. If you're struggling with it and you're thinking about this. To see a man that's failed at it, that tried everything, that had everything.

Nicole [00:28:38]: But even if he said. You said he never found it, but if he went back to one way, that way had to have made him the happiest.

John [00:28:46]: Exactly. That was the best.

Nicole [00:28:48]: In a way, he did find it, because otherwise he would have just been single. If he really didn't find it, he would be single.

John [00:28:53]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:28:54]: In my opinion.

John [00:28:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:55]: The fact that he went through all of that and then chose monogamy, that is the one that made him the happiest.

John [00:29:02]: Yeah. Yeah. 100. So. But. But yeah. So I was just distracted by your beauty. Your. I like your earring and necklace choices. Looks nice.

Nicole [00:29:13]: I thought that I had, like, a bug on me or something because I saw you, like, looking at my shoulder and I'm like, I don't feel anything.

John [00:29:20]: Oh, that looks really good. I like the. The necklace with the earrings. But. Yeah, but no, I mean, that's. That's. The thing is, like, it's. You think it's gonna do one thing, but it's. It's not. It's just gonna destroy your relationship and your family.

Nicole [00:29:32]: Yeah.

John [00:29:32]: You know, because it also. The other thing is, like, kids involved too. Right. Like, a lot of times this is a situation and you think you can hide all this stuff from your kids, but it'll eventually come out.

Nicole [00:29:44]: Eventually.

John [00:29:45]: And it can be very embarrassing to your kids, especially when they're in school, especially when their friends find out or whatever. You know, Like. Like these things don't stay.

Nicole [00:29:57]: It's hard enough for kids for their parents to go through a divorce. But then, like, which, like, kids should not find out, by the way.

John [00:30:04]: Like, they shouldn't.

Nicole [00:30:05]: No parents or anybody should be telling kids things that they don't need to be knowing. I'm not saying that eventually, if you feel like it's the right time when your kids are adults.

John [00:30:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:18]: To have an adult conversation with your kid. Yeah, But.

John [00:30:22]: But you also don't want.

Nicole [00:30:23]: When they're children. Right.

John [00:30:24]: You're still going to ruin their memories of their childhood. Now they're going to repaint it based off of what they know, that you're, you know, whatever you're swinging or whatever you're doing. Right. So. So it's not. It's not good.

Nicole [00:30:34]: Which there are certain things that kids should know. I don't think kids should know about swinging or whatever that really. They should never know.

John [00:30:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:42]: But like if your kid's dad is not who they think is their dad or. Or they have whatever.

John [00:30:49]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:30:49]: Those are unacceptable things to keep from your child.

John [00:30:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:53]: But like what you and your crazy husband are doing on the weekend, granted, you shouldn't be doing that.

John [00:31:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:00]: It should just be you two.

John [00:31:02]: Yeah. And then again, the other thing I think that's important is, like, one of the great things about our podcast is we. Even though a lot of what we say happens to line up with traditional Christian theology, we are not religious.

Nicole [00:31:18]: We're not spiritual, though.

John [00:31:19]: Yeah. But what I'm saying is that I feel what we say carries more weight because it's what we believe is.

Nicole [00:31:28]: Right.

John [00:31:29]: Right. Based on our logic. Exactly. And natural consequences of life, of things. This is why these. There's no Supreme Command book that we're looking at that's telling us this is how it has to be. And believe this on this authority.

Nicole [00:31:47]: Right.

John [00:31:48]: If you believe that, that's fine. Not trying to attack people that are. That believe that, that's fine. But what I'm saying is that it's a lot more credible when we're saying this out of life experience and other people's life experience. And this is just how things sort out in nature. Right, Right. Because I think that's.

Nicole [00:32:03]: So what has more. Like you said, like, more things to back it up, like more evidence.

John [00:32:09]: Right. Because if you say, well, I believe in the Spaghetti Monster as my God and personal savior and he says this, but I believe in Cookie Monster is my God and savior and he says this, then you have a conflict because you're going based off of some authority is telling you that things are right or wrong, whereas common sense and logic and natural consequences, natural order of things is a better authority to lean on, because that authority is not up for debate as much. You know what I'm saying? Because I can believe one religion and someone else can believe another one, and they say different things. Then who's Right. Well, they're both basing it on the defer. What do they call the plea to authority? Right. So, yeah, yeah. To get into logic. But. But, but. No but, but I think, though, that it is. It is super important to discuss because like I said, a lot of people don't think about these things, and then they end up ruining their relationship and their family because they think it's just a sexual thing or whatever, and they think it'll be fun or what. That's going to solve problems. But inevitably it creates a whole host of problems. And every single person that I know that has done this or has, you know, done something similar, it's always blown up.

Nicole [00:33:36]: Yeah.

John [00:33:37]: Every single time.

Nicole [00:33:37]: And it always will.

John [00:33:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:39]: Like, I'm not trying to fear monger people, but one surefire way for your relationship to not work out is to open it up in whatever way.

John [00:33:48]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:33:49]: You're better off just breaking up at that point. But I feel like we can't talk about this without talking about corn. And I'm gonna say corn because I don't want anything to be limited.

John [00:34:03]: But the AI that looks at the videos knows the context of what.

Nicole [00:34:10]: Well, I'm still gonna say corn.

John [00:34:12]: You can say corn.

Nicole [00:34:13]: But we can't talk about this without talking about that, because, honestly, corn cobbery. Yes, corn cobbery. Be that visual or written or whatever way you. You want to serve it up. I. I truly believe that a lot of these extreme things that people feel like they have to introduce into their sexual lives stem from this.

John [00:34:42]: Yeah. It's a gateway drug.

Nicole [00:34:43]: Stems from.

John [00:34:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:45]: You know, them relying on that. Them enjoying that to a point where it has to get more and more extreme. It has to get more and more crazy. It has to get more and more outrageous to the point where, like you said, one person isn't enough. I mean, logically, again, because we're. We sit here and we talk logically. Why did women's ankles make men.

John [00:35:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:14]: Get boners back in the day? Because that's all that they could get.

John [00:35:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:20]: In that moment.

John [00:35:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:21]: It wasn't everywhere for them. People were clothed more. So an ankle was like, oh, my God, a freaking ankle.

John [00:35:29]: Like, it was because of the. The preponderance of ankle jobs.

Nicole [00:35:34]: Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, like, it is to this extreme.

John [00:35:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:41]: Because we've gone to the extreme.

John [00:35:44]: Everyone is desensitized because the world is overly sexualized. Right.

Nicole [00:35:47]: Yes.

John [00:35:48]: My famous thing is to say, go to the gym. Right. But, like, yoga pants, like, is a good Example, it's like, it's insane. Like you're literally wearing. We're just showing your entire butt.

Nicole [00:35:59]: Yeah.

John [00:36:00]: More than a swimsuit even that shows like that.

Nicole [00:36:04]: Yeah.

John [00:36:04]: Perfectly hugs your butt. So it's like. But, but that, but my point in saying that is that it's, it's literally everywhere, right? Like every advertisement, everywhere you go.

Nicole [00:36:13]: I mean it is everywhere. And like kids today.

John [00:36:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:16]: They don't have any like media or idols that are in the preteen era. So that's why all these 8 year olds want Sephora makeup and all this stuff. Like. Yes, that's not like sexual. But the, but the thing is that these kids are on TikTok. They're consuming content now that could possibly be sexual.

John [00:36:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:36]: Because they have unrestricted access to the Internet. So they are being introduced to this stuff. And honestly, like if a kid has electronic device degree, they're gonna go looking for the stuff when they get curious.

John [00:36:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:48]: And if they didn't have those things, then they would gradually understand the curiosity. They'd have a conversation with their parents, they would figure things out in a different way. But instead, instead it's so prevalent and it's so everywhere that even kids can get a hold of some of this corn and then they're addicted to crazy stuff at 10 years old.

John [00:37:11]: Tell me that you wish that you don't wish that you'd never seen any of it in your life. Right. Like everyone. I feel like I wish I'd never seen any of it. You know what I mean? Because it's not good for you. And you think about, um, you know, just like even like some people will criticule. Like you think of communities where they're prudish and they cover up and the women wear, you know, like the Amish. Yeah. Or something like that. And it's like, okay, is it, you know, very prudish or is it practical? Right. Because it create, you know, the.

Nicole [00:37:50]: Because Jeffrey hasn't seen a boob in a long time and he's gonna be really excited to see that boob.

John [00:37:55]: Exactly. And so is he more likely to. In his marriage? You know, is it more likely that those people are going to stay together? That's their only source of, of sexual expression at all, you know, because it's heavily like regulated by that society. Because they're not, they're not, you know, I'm saying. So it creates. I'm not saying that we have to be as, as prudish.

Nicole [00:38:19]: Right.

John [00:38:19]: But like regardless, you know, sometimes we talk to children and we're like, oh, that's inappropriate for you to wear. It's inappropriate for anyone to wear though. You know what I'm saying? It's like no one should be wearing these kind of inappropriate things in public. Yeah. In the privacy of your home, with your spouse, whatever. Sexy. But, but in general, like, it is better to.

Nicole [00:38:39]: Because then you have to do more. That's also why dresses now, like on the red carpet and stuff are see through. Because now you have to do more. If you're already dressing provocatively in your everyday. When you dress up for something now you're like, oh, I need to do something even more over the top. I need to wear like a totally sheer top with just my nipples out. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it doesn't have to be like that, but we've made it that way because we keep trying to one up. That's like, I forget who the person was. But it was like the spongebob movie premiere. One of the rapper girls showed up in like a see through dress with underwear on and stuff. And you could see the underwear and stuff through. And this is a kids movie, right?

John [00:39:22]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:39:23]: Like what has happened? And like you said, like, okay, look like you can wear whatever you want, but the reality is, is that you're gonna feel like you have to keep one upping things.

John [00:39:36]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:37]: And that's exhausting. And then it leads to this kind of stuff. It leads to maybe you're a girl that just wants to be with one guy and be treated like a princess and like he worships the ground she walks on, but you haven't found that yet. And so your friends are telling you, oh, wear this like, you know, cute top where you know everything's hanging out and like, you'll get plenty of attention. Yeah, you do. But from guys that probably aren't going to treat you the way that you want to be treated.

John [00:40:02]: Right, exactly. Like, yeah. Because you're sending a message and if

Nicole [00:40:05]: you want to still wear that and you know that that could happen and you know that you can deal with it. Sure. But it is still hard to deal with whether you can deal with it or not. And it's just, it's gotten to a point, like I said, where it just keeps being more and more and I am tired. I'm tired as a woman.

John [00:40:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:25]: Like, yes, I am married. So people I'm sure are going to be like, well, you're married, you already found your guy, whatever. But I'm tired that I can't read a book most of the Time.

John [00:40:35]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. That doesn't have corn, Corn and corn. Coppery.

Nicole [00:40:40]: Corn coppery in it.

John [00:40:42]: Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah.

Nicole [00:40:45]: And, and the extent that these books have gone to.

John [00:40:49]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:40:49]: You're going to sit here and tell me that that's normal, Right. Because I know back in the 90s and the early 2000s when I was young, my mom was not reading about aliens with schlongs the size of my arm. Yeah, she might have, I don't, she didn't really read that much, but there might have been some cowboy romances or something. But I know, yeah, they probably were not on the level of these ones today.

John [00:41:18]: No, not. Yeah, definitely not.

Nicole [00:41:19]: We've gone right too far. We need to pull it back a little bit. For sure.

John [00:41:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:25]: Like put your clothes back on and show a little ankle and make the guy be like, oh, shoot, that's an ankle. I like that ankle. That would be going really far back, but you know what I'm saying.

John [00:41:36]: No, but like in general like that. But, but, but, but men also have

Nicole [00:41:40]: to do it too. That's the thing is like, women can't just start dressing like the Amish when men are still exposed to these dramatic things.

John [00:41:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:51]: Or they're wanting to be with multiple people.

John [00:41:54]: And, and, but, and I think like to tie it kind of back in because we went off a little on a tangent, but it's a good tangent. Is, is that the thing is, is that the root of this, right. Of this non exclusive relationships, open relationships or variations of that is a sexual dissatisfaction. Right. That's always the root of it. There's no other root of it. Right. Like, why else are people doing this? Why would you do this? Right. It has to do with some kind of sexual dissatisfaction. Right. And so what creates sexual dissatisfaction? Like you said, if you could be turned on by an ankle, your degree of what is required in order to be sexually satisfied is pretty low. It's like, maybe a knee will do it for you. That's good enough. Like you're just like, I didn't even take my clothes off. Now we have to. That was quick. That's like. But what I'm saying is that like it's going to, it's going to prevent you from wanting these things because what you're getting is more than enough. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, what is your appetite? Well, I mean, if you're gorging yourself on buffets all the time, right? And then you eat a normal sized meal, you're gonna be Like, I'm still hungry. Exactly. Right. And so that's the thing is, like, it is very related to it, because if you can abstain from corncobbery and also just from. I mean, even just averting your eyes. I mean, this is hard to do as a guy, but, like, don't even look. Don't even. Like, when you see some sexual image, just. Or, you know, I mean. Or there's yoga pants in your face, just like.

Nicole [00:43:46]: Why are the yoga pants in your face?

John [00:43:48]: I'm just saying, like. Just like. Because it's all over the place. It's.

Nicole [00:43:51]: Yeah.

John [00:43:51]: Billboards and everywhere. Yeah, I know, I know. But I'm just saying, like, to even. Just like, for your own good.

Nicole [00:43:57]: Yeah.

John [00:43:58]: You know, I'm saying, like, that's a smarter way to. To be. It's harder.

Nicole [00:44:03]: Yeah, for sure. If you have sexual discipline, that is hot to a woman. If you don't, that's unattractive. Because if you can't control your sexual desire.

John [00:44:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:12]: There's probably plenty of other places in your life you can't control. And it's just an excuse.

John [00:44:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:18]: Like, no one wants an excuse for poor behavior.

John [00:44:21]: Right. Yeah. Even. Even the corncobbery novels. Right. Usually one of the plot devices is that they can't get it on, but they want to get it on, but the guy has to, like, wait for the opportunity till he can finally get it in. You know what I'm saying? But that's. So. That is obviously in those. In those novels, because it does turn

Nicole [00:44:47]: women on, the sexual tension.

John [00:44:49]: Yeah, yeah. And so. But that. But it's sexual discipline.

Nicole [00:44:52]: Right?

John [00:44:52]: Is. Is how it's displayed in a man. Right. A man that is, like, able. Willing to wait.

Nicole [00:44:57]: Right.

John [00:44:58]: For her.

Nicole [00:44:58]: You know, so when you go to your wife and you're like, I want to open the relationship, that's like the opposite.

John [00:45:05]: Yeah. And. And, you know, the other thing about that, too, is, I mean, I'll just give the precautionary tale if everything else we've said isn't enough. I have a guy that I advised against this, and one of the reasons why I advised against it, because he was like, oh, yeah, My wife was like, yeah, I can go to bars and pick up girls or whatever. And he was married and he had kids, and. And I was like, you don't even know what you're doing anyway. Right. Like, you think it's just gonna be easy. You think you're just gonna. That you're just gonna find women that

Nicole [00:45:37]: are just throw themselves at you.

John [00:45:38]: Yeah. You know, you're. You're not.

Nicole [00:45:41]: You're a dude.

John [00:45:42]: You're not what I would call a specimen. Right. Like, you don't have very much game. You're not a specimen. Like. Okay. And so his wife let him do it, and he was not successful. And then she left him because he was a loser. Because she was like, should have left him anyway. Sure, sure. Maybe there's multiple. But I'm just saying, like, it also didn't look too good on him. Like, he thought it was going to be this light and. Because the reason why I'm saying this is because I think a lot of people think they have an illusion in their head of what it's going to be like, and then the actuality is not that. So you're. You're making a trade for something that you're not even going to get. Or it's not going to be as good as what? Yeah, it's not going to be what you think it is. It's not. You know, it's the. You got the picture of the Big Mac in the advertisement. It looks all juicy and great, but then when you open up the Big Mac, it's just like this little shriveled burger, you know?

Nicole [00:46:37]: Yeah. It looks horrible.

John [00:46:38]: So.

Nicole [00:46:39]: Yeah, but it wouldn't have worked either way.

John [00:46:40]: No.

Nicole [00:46:41]: Because like we've been saying this whole episode, the trusts would have been broken. It doesn't matter if you got women,

John [00:46:46]: but at least he would have got women.

Nicole [00:46:50]: I see what you're saying.

John [00:46:51]: He got. He got nothing.

Nicole [00:46:53]: You're talking about the other.

John [00:46:54]: He traded something good, a wife and a family for nothing. He got nothing. He thought he was going to get something. He got nothing. He lost. He lost what he already had, and he didn't gain anything else.

Nicole [00:47:06]: I hear what you're saying, but also, I don't want men specifically to listen to this, because a lot of times they get a woman first and then leave.

John [00:47:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:15]: Like, that's not the point you're trying to make. The point you're trying to make is your relationship will end regardless of whether you open up the. When you open up the relationship, if you get women or if you don't.

John [00:47:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:26]: But if you don't get women, it's even more embarrassing. But honestly, telling your wife you want to open the relationship is pretty embarrassing.

John [00:47:32]: Right? I agree. I think, like, it's embarrassing.

Nicole [00:47:34]: That shows who you are, which is also embarrassing. Like, you think opening it up and not being able to get women makes you a loser. Like, you're a loser for Wanting to open up your marriage instead of just being like, I don't want to be with you anymore.

John [00:47:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:47]: You know what I mean? Like, that's more respectable.

John [00:47:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:50]: Than being like, I need more women. I need more women to sleep with.

John [00:47:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:54]: Like, that sounds like toddler boy being like, I need milk and cookies.

John [00:47:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:59]: I only have one cookie. I need more cookies. No, more.

John [00:48:03]: More milk, but whatever.

Nicole [00:48:06]: You know what I'm saying? So don't think it makes you less of a loser if you do it and you get girls because you just blew up your life.

John [00:48:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:17]: So that's not attractive either.

John [00:48:19]: Yeah. Well, I think. Anything else you got on that?

Nicole [00:48:24]: I think no, just don't do it. Just break.

John [00:48:26]: No variations of it.

Nicole [00:48:27]: Yeah. Just break up, because it's gonna end anyway. And honestly, if you're feeling called to that lifestyle again, like, take a. Take a moment and, like, see if maybe there's some underlying reasons why this is so attractive to you. And if you still decide to be polyamorous, that's fine. But just know you're not going to have the deepest, most intimate, connected relationship that you can have with one person.

John [00:48:57]: And I would say if you're thinking about it, decorn for three months first.

Nicole [00:49:04]: Yeah.

John [00:49:04]: And then see if you still need that.

Nicole [00:49:08]: You should just decorn as much as you can.

John [00:49:11]: Of course. But I'm just saying you need to at least do that first. Then you'll have a different perspective.

Nicole [00:49:20]: Yeah, that's true. That's not bad advice.

John [00:49:23]: All right, that's it for this episode. If you have a question for us, you can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com and our website is betterthanperfectpod.com we now automatically. AI automatically grabs the episode and puts it there on time every single week.

Nicole [00:49:42]: So John created that.

John [00:49:44]: That's right.

Nicole [00:49:44]: Done a lot of really cool things.

John [00:49:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:47]: With not only the podcast, but just with AI in general. So. Yeah.

John [00:49:52]: All right, see you next week.

Nicole [00:49:54]: Bye.