John [00:00:00]: In our relationship, if you suddenly started dressing provocatively and going out with your friends every night, I would start to move more towards the anxiety side of things because I'd be like, what the hell is. What's going on here? I'll either have to have a talk with you and, like, come to a resolution, or I'll have to become anxiously attached. There's no in between. If you let that behavior go. Okay, well, I don't want to say something to them because I don't want to ruin the relationship. Everyone's going to become anxiously attached at that point. Now they're doing something you actively don't like. You're forcing yourself to stay in there. If you're attached at have to be anxiously attached at that point, there's no way that you're not going to be at that point. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other.

Nicole [00:00:42]: Better than perfect.

John [00:00:44]: We stay through every fault.

Nicole [00:00:48]: We find our way.

John [00:00:51]: All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how to imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:00]: That's right.

John [00:01:01]: And today we're going to complete the cycle of the cycle, the attachment styles. Styles. By talking about the anxious attachment.

Nicole [00:01:11]: Yes. So anxious attachment. I guess everyone can understand what that means, obviously. I mean, everybody gets anxious or has anxiety at some point. So it's that like, constantly needing reassurance or being hypervigilant or worrying 247 about whether your partner loves you or if they're going to leave you or if you said something wrong or you did something wrong or if you're not good enough or. It's a lot of things wrapped into one. Yeah, one. So, yeah, I mean, it's kind of hard to talk about in a way, but also it shouldn't be because I definitely can have anxious tendencies myself.

John [00:02:03]: No. No way. I'm not buying it.

Nicole [00:02:08]: And it does stem from, I think, a lot of anxious people.

John [00:02:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:14]: If you really look at it, something traumatic.

John [00:02:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:18]: In some way happened to them either in childhood or in a relationship.

John [00:02:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:22]: Right. Because like, when I had met you and for a good chunk, I was more avoidant than anxious. I would like to say I was a little bit more secure, actually, when I met you. And then in the past, I was more avoided.

John [00:02:39]: Are you trying to say that dating someone who was actively cheating on their ex wife and then lying to you the whole time about a number of things, including having children, could cause you to be anxiously attached? And then he leaves two times without notice. No, true. I don't think so.

Nicole [00:02:56]: True, true. I'm glad you acknowledged that.

John [00:02:59]: That can't be at all related to that.

Nicole [00:03:01]: I'm glad you acknowledged that. But no, yeah, I mean, exactly like you said, I think I definitely developed a more anxious attachment style. I mean, I did recently take the test in the attached book and I'm like one more in the secure, secure side than the anxious side. But it's funny because I only had one avoidant thing in the whole thing, so I've like, kind of healed that part.

John [00:03:29]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:03:30]: Now I gotta tackle this other part. Well, I am more on the secure side. I'm tackling. I was definitely more anxious when I. We first got together, like you said, when all those things were happening. And it's developed more into secure. But. But I do think that's why also too. I think it does stem from something traumatic happening. Like, you know, when you're a child, you know, a lot of kids, even if, like one of your parents didn't leave or whatever, if they're unpredictable or not emotionally mature themselves or they, like, they're avoidant, that can make you more anxious. So, like in childhood, I think it can happen in multiple ways, like either something traumatic like one of them leaving, or just the way that your parents are attached and, you know, not showing up for you in a secure way can cause you to be anxious. But really it is based on all of them. I know we're talking about the anxious to kind of like round it out, but all of them do come from the relationship that you're currently in a lot of the time.

John [00:04:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:42]: So, you know, it does factor, like, even if you think you're one way, like I said, for the avoidant, like I. I was avoidant at one point. So I knew what living in that world.

John [00:04:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:55]: Was like.

John [00:04:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:57]: And now, you know, trying to get more to the secure, like living in the anxious. So again, it goes both ways. I know we talked about it in the secure episode too, that it's like you're not always going to be 100% just secure.

John [00:05:11]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:05:12]: You know, I mean, like, if you're. You should be. If you're in a marriage where you both obviously committed to spend the rest of your life with each other. Right. And you're both working on being secure and having a healthy relationship, you should lean more towards being secure majority of the time. But you can still go either way. But that's kind of like a little bit of a sidetrack, but. Yeah. So anxious people they're just constantly afraid or worried that the love or the connection is going to be taken away. So they cling even more and pay more attention and try to figure things out. I actually, in the book, the attached book, they talk about how anxious people are. Are typically more accurate in determining fidelity. No, well, determining, like, how someone's feeling if. When they don't say it.

John [00:06:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:11]: However.

John [00:06:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:12]: They are also quick, more likely to quickly just assume things rather than, like, actually know what they are. So, like, they'll assume something and it might not be the correct thing.

John [00:06:26]: You can detect that someone's upset, that you think it means that they're going to leave you or whatever.

Nicole [00:06:33]: Or like that they're super angry at you and they want to break up or. Yeah, like they just had a bad

John [00:06:38]: day at work or whatever.

Nicole [00:06:39]: Right, exactly.

John [00:06:40]: You're right. But for the wrong reason.

Nicole [00:06:42]: Right. But it's not as extreme as you think it is.

John [00:06:44]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:06:45]: And so, yeah. That you mentioned that, like, anxious attachment is typically very rooted in the extremes. Like, you know, are you sure you still love me? I'm sure you've heard that one before.

John [00:06:58]: No.

Nicole [00:06:58]: Are you sure you still love me? Are you sure you're still attracted to me? Like, all of those things. And like, a lot of times people don't even do anything to warrant these. It's their own, the anxious person's own thoughts of either, like a past instance or, you know, living in that fear of whatever happened to them to cause them to be more anxious happening again.

John [00:07:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:26]: And so.

John [00:07:28]: And it's all rooted in that, like we talked about in the other episode of the idea of thinking that love is something that has to be earned or that you're worthy of or unworthy of.

Nicole [00:07:41]: Right.

John [00:07:41]: Because then it can be taken away. And so it's like, okay, have I done something now that's going to cause me to lose love?

Nicole [00:07:48]: Right.

John [00:07:49]: And a lot of it roots back to the childhood where as a child, your parents took away love or it appeared that way to you.

Nicole [00:07:56]: They seemed that way. Yeah.

John [00:07:58]: They withdrew, whatever when you did something they didn't like. They got mad at you, they disciplined you with anger. Those are instances where you're now learning this thing that, okay, if I don't behave a certain way, then someone will not show me love, and if I do behave a certain way, then I'll get the love.

Nicole [00:08:18]: Right?

John [00:08:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:20]: Yeah. And like you said, I feel like anxious people feel like, and they actually mention this in the book, that it's their fault when a relationship gets Messed up. Whereas avoidant people think that that's just not the right person.

John [00:08:35]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:08:36]: And so, yeah, like you said, like, anxious people, they put a lot of pressure on themselves.

John [00:08:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:42]: Because they already don't feel good enough for whatever reason that caused them to think that.

John [00:08:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:48]: And so then they try to overcompensate. They try to be like, oh, are you sure you're okay? Or like, are you sure you still love me? Like they need that constant reassurance. And they said in the book that, like, if an anxious person does get reassurance pretty early on to their spiraling. They didn't say spiraling, but I'm saying spiraling, then it kind of brings them back to baseline.

John [00:09:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:16]: A lot easier than if they don't get that. Like, you know, they're the type of people that will call you 10 times when you don't answer because they're like, oh my God, what's going on? Or, you know, they. Which in the book they said also too, that anxious people are the type of people to kind of hold things in somewhat and then they'll explain. Explode.

John [00:09:38]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:39]: Which I found kind of interesting, I guess maybe too, that like, you know, just, just because I can't relate specifically to that, but I can think of other anxious people or people who have anxious qualities as well too, where they might exhibit. Yeah, something like that.

John [00:09:55]: I think it's because it's. It seems a little counterintuitive because you're being. You think, okay, that sounds like an avoidant tendency, like to hold something in and not to talk about it. But it's a way of keeping the peace. Yeah. Of being afraid. Because it's like, I'm afraid that my emotions will ruin this. Exactly. So. Right. So it's like.

Nicole [00:10:18]: But what about the explosion? I guess that's my thing is like.

John [00:10:21]: Well, because you can only hold it for so, so long. And then once you get into the spiral. Right. When it's like, oh, what's upsetting you? Nothing, I'm okay. And then it's like, you know, then finally when it gets to the point where it's like you are sleeping with people at the gym in your car. I know it like, then it's like,

Nicole [00:10:44]: no, that's good you said that because. Because they did say that. You made me lose my train of thought. They did say that anxiously attached people will not address issues right away. And then they will kind of like blindside you with these built up story or.

John [00:11:09]: Yeah. An entire story that's made the whole life that you lived inside of their head.

Nicole [00:11:14]: True, but see, that's why, like, if you stop the spiraling, that's why I call it spiraling early. But you have to also communicate as an anxious person. You have to be like, hey. But then also anxious people being like, can you tell me you love me? Or something feels like you're being needy and clingy and like. Like a negative thing. You know what I mean? Like, most people feel like if they have to be like, can you reassure me that you love me? They feel like the other person is going to have a negative reaction.

John [00:11:53]: And I think a lot of people will, right? So it's like, I think there's a. What anxious people need is a loving boundary, right? So in the sense that, yes, if you have an anxiously attached partner and they call you and you immediately answer, you're going to stop the spiraling, Right? If they're like, where are you? However, you're also going to reinforce the pattern. And then the one time that you're not able to access your phone, they're going to call you 15 times. So I think it's a balance of being able to do the reassurance but also set the boundary, like, for example, being like, okay, yes, I can tell you that I do love you. However, I am working right now, so I'm going to need to not be interrupted or something where you're not. Or even if it's like you're at dinner with friends, you're anxiously attached partner is calling you and texting you, and then you politely say, I'm busy right now, but I'll call you as soon as I'm able to, or something like that. I love you.

Nicole [00:13:07]: Yeah.

John [00:13:08]: Or even maybe you have to ignore it because it's happening all the time. And then when you get a time to actually talk to them, you talk to them. You don't get upset at them for calling you 15 times. But you say, hey, you can't be doing this. But you have to negotiate those things so that they can both feel safe and secure. Because I think some people overreact and they're like, don't ever do that. Don't call me 15 times. What are you crazy? And that's just gonna send them worse.

Nicole [00:13:38]: That's gonna make them more cr.

John [00:13:39]: It's going to make them worse. Whereas you'd be like, okay, if you have a conversation, say, look, you called me 15 times just because I was. Didn't answer my phone. You know, that's. That's not okay to do. I Love you, I care about you. I understand why you're upset about that. But, you know, we've got to have some trust and, you know, and it needs to go both ways.

Nicole [00:14:05]: But what if you see that they're doing something sketchy?

John [00:14:09]: Well, I mean, then you have to discuss that thing, obviously. Right. But even, like, if someone's doing something sketchy, calling them 15 times doesn't. Okay. Because if you think about it, being securely attached means that you're not trying to control your partner. Right. I think to some degree, anxiously attached is also trying to control. Right. Because I don't think it's trying to

Nicole [00:14:34]: control your partner in the sense of, like, you want them to do whatever you want to do. I think it is controlling and trying to control outcomes so that you don't get hurt again.

John [00:14:44]: Yeah. And so you have to let people do what they're going to do, otherwise you are controlling them. Right. And so if someone's doing something sketchy, I mean, obviously you can call whatever or text, but if you call 15 times or you like you're trying to prevent them from doing the thing that they're going to do, you need to let them do it and suffer the consequences. And then if that is now you're ending the relationship, that's you ending the relationship.

Nicole [00:15:10]: Well, here's why that's hard for anxiously attached people. Because according to the book, and I say that because I don't feel like I fully align with this and it's a little bit different, but. But I know that it to be true that anxiously attached people, a lot of the time, they want that control. They have a hard time with what you're saying because they think that this is the person for them.

John [00:15:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:37]: And that that person has to fit in that box.

John [00:15:39]: Exactly, exactly.

Nicole [00:15:41]: And so, like, they don't feel like they could just go out and find someone. And in some ways, I can relate to that because the thing is, I know how different you are. We're married. I do feel like you're my soulmate. So there is a part of me that's like, I'm not going to find this again. You know what I mean? And maybe that adds to some of. But like, when I was single, or if you were just a normal Joe Schmo, I'd be like, no, there's two

John [00:16:06]: solutions to that which are not the ones of trying to control the outcome which is going to keep someone anxiously attached, which is one solution is to allow whatever's going to happen to happen and realize that you're going to be okay no matter what. And if you have to find someone else or move on, then you will. The other solution is to expand the box and to allow people to make mistakes. Obviously, there's a limit to the mistakes, but people are humans. And if you feel like this person is the person for you and then you have to accept them with all of their weaknesses and problems and issues, it doesn't mean you don't work through things. But if someone doesn't fit the mold, fit the box perfectly, you can't force them into the box. So you either have to expand the box or get a different box. You know what I'm saying? You have to make that choice. Making the choice of I'm going to try and fit them into this box doesn't work because you're always going to be anxious because you can't always control all the outcomes of things. And if you're dependent, if your wellbeing is dependent on controlling the outcome of a thing, you're never going to be okay.

Nicole [00:17:19]: Which I agree with you. But here's the flip side again too, is that a lot of anxious people do expand the box into things that they should not accept. And that's the problem, right? Is like, I think as an anxious person, you do have to realize where you're not going to expand the box. Like, okay, your boyfriend likes anime and you don't expand the box for that or whatever, you know what I mean? He's going out and not telling you where he is and comes home at four o'clock in the morning. You probably shouldn't expand the box for that.

John [00:17:54]: Yeah, well, you know what I mean? Like, so let's take that scenario, like he's going out and coming home at 4 in the morning not telling you where he is. In that situation, you have to have a conversation and talk about why that upsets you, what, you know, what is appropriate and not. But if that happens, you can't freak out at that point in time because that's not gonna, it's not gonna help the situation. What I'm saying is that expanding the box in that case looks like saying. It looks like basically saying, okay, I don't need to completely be like, oh, no, it's the end of the world because he did this at the same time, it doesn't mean I'm just going to let this continue to happen. It means that now there's going to be a negotiation and discussion about this and going forward, what's going to happen. But the reason why I'm Making that distinction, even though it sounds like exactly the same thing, is because it's a difference between trying to control outcome and accepting possible outcomes. Right? So you've heard me talk to our daughter about this, about one way of dealing with things with anxiety is to say, okay, well what are the possible outcomes and how can I make myself okay with every single possible outcome, Right? So like in that situation, the boyfriend's staying out to 4am and not saying where he's at. Okay. One possible outcome is that that's what he's just going to do and he just wants to do that. Okay? So in that case, it's probably like you're going to break up with him and that's okay because you don't want to be with someone who really doesn't care about your feelings that much and would want to do those things. That's fine. So that's actually a good outcome. Another outcome could be you have the conversation and he agrees and he does better and you stay together. Right? Another possible outcome is that I don't know what is another possible outcome there?

Nicole [00:20:05]: I don't know because all I can think about is that he has no accountability. So what do you mean you're coming home at 4 o' clock in the morning and it's my problem, like where, why are you in a relationship if you think going out and not telling somebody where you're at and coming home at 4 in the morning is it acceptable thing?

John [00:20:25]: Yeah, but you have to see.

Nicole [00:20:26]: And I made this example, but I'm just saying that you're like, just, you have to ask him first. I'm like, no, like if you don't know that this is a problem, then that's a bigger problem. And then bye. Yeah, but that's where that's, that's just my reaction.

John [00:20:39]: But that's, that's the spiral.

Nicole [00:20:41]: But maybe because I used an extreme example, you're like, talk about it. I'm like, no, I would not.

John [00:20:46]: I would be like, it's an extreme example, right? But like, but jumping to conclusions is where like you got to say, okay, you got to have a discussion about this. Like, why would you do this? Does this, you know, is this a pattern? Like, is this a future thing? You know, can we agree that this is not okay? Can we agree.

Nicole [00:21:04]: But I think also kept her in the know for sure.

John [00:21:08]: I'm just talking about from the anxious person. Like, what can you do as an anxious person? Not like, obviously this guy is.

Nicole [00:21:14]: I used a bad example.

John [00:21:16]: But no, it's a Good example. Because it is like it is one that is going to trigger anyone. Right, Right. Hopefully should. But then you still have to.

Nicole [00:21:25]: You're saying you would just ask me, hey, why did you come home at 4am and you didn't tell me where you are?

John [00:21:31]: I wouldn't be happy about that. Right. Well, but also the other thing to think about too in that situation is you already know we already have a relationship, we already know what boundaries exist. And so that would already be constituting, violating that.

Nicole [00:21:48]: Right.

John [00:21:48]: So it's different if you're in a relationship and you haven't talked about these type of things and you're not.

Nicole [00:21:56]: Pretty common sense. That's why I'm saying maybe I gave a bad example because I think it's pretty common sense that if you don't tell your partner anything and you come home at 4am, that's not a good thing.

John [00:22:07]: It's not common. I mean, it's not common sense to everyone. So it depends on what you've talked about. And I mean, some people have open relationships.

Nicole [00:22:20]: Is it fine, then you can't even be upset.

John [00:22:22]: I guess I'm just saying it's like some people have different ideas of what is acceptable and what's not. So you gotta still have a discussion. But yeah, I mean, but I'm just saying from the anxiety anxious standpoint, you have to let go of control of outcomes of things and just really just being able to say, okay, well if it's the worst scenario, I'm okay with that and this is what I'll do and if it's a medium scenario, this is what I'll do. And if it's the best scenario, and I was completely wrong about this and that's good as well. So all three of the outcomes, whatever outcomes, are acceptable. Otherwise you're trying to control and force the outcome which is just going to. Which a lot of times also pushes you into the outcome you don't want. Because if you give a dog a bad name, you might as well hang the dog. Right. So a lot of times I think a lot of anxiously attached people, they drive people in the exact direction that they're trying to prevent them from going. You know, to, to some degree, human nature is like that too. It's like someone wants us to not do that.

Nicole [00:23:20]: I don't think it's their fault. Like someone still has a choice, they're

John [00:23:25]: still responsible for their own actions.

Nicole [00:23:26]: Like you can't blame someone else for

John [00:23:28]: your actions, but you don't want to influence people in directions that you don't want them to go.

Nicole [00:23:34]: Yeah, I get what you're saying.

John [00:23:35]: That's what I'm saying is it's like.

Nicole [00:23:37]: Well, I think the better thing to say because I guess like what you're implying is like, okay, if you're afraid someone's gonna cheat, you're gonna push someone to cheat. Like, that's still someone's choice. And I don't think that's true. But I think if you're afraid to lose someone and you keep like asking about it, Right. You eventually will become more off putting to them and then they will want to leave.

John [00:24:01]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:24:02]: So my thing is, like, I don't ever think it's acceptable if someone's like, are you going to cheat on me? Are you going to cheat on me? That. That pushes someone to cheat on you. Because cheating is an active choice.

John [00:24:11]: Yeah, it's. But from our own perspectives, right, if you're in that situation, you just have to know that, yeah, it is still the other person's responsibility and choice, but you may be influencing them in that direction.

Nicole [00:24:26]: That's putting responsibility on someone else.

John [00:24:28]: It doesn't. That's just a fact. Just like when we've had this discussion before about women and the clothing that they wear, influencing whether that they're assaulted. Like, okay, it's still someone who's assaulting, it's still 100% on them. But if you go into a place and you're wearing very revealing clothing and then you get unwanted male attention, it's still the. That man's problem and his fault. But you've influenced it. And so it's the same thing here.

Nicole [00:24:59]: Okay, well how does someone asking you make you want to cheat on someone else then? How does that influence you? Yeah, so the way that the person you care about is worried about you

John [00:25:09]: doing, the way that it influences people, I would say, is that there's two ways. One is that it demonstrates a break of trust. So like I said, if you give a dog a bad name, you might as well hang the dog, Right? So if you're already accusing them, if it's coming across accusatory or like not trusting them and thinking that they're cheating or that they're going to cheat, then they're like, well, I don't really have any trust, any. I might as well do what I'm being demonized for anyway.

Nicole [00:25:40]: That's emotionally very immature.

John [00:25:44]: It's not a good choice, obviously. But I'm just saying what influences people? The second thing that influences people is that in general when someone feels like they're being forced in a direction, they generally want to go the opposite direction. And so whenever you're trying to exert your will or push on someone, you end up having the opposite reaction. Now again, like I said, this is another extreme example that you picked. Right. But.

Nicole [00:26:09]: Well, I wanted you to actually explain how someone being afraid of someone cheating pushes them to cheat. Because that just blows my mind.

John [00:26:17]: Or sometimes they put the idea in their head too. Right. That's a third way that it happens.

Nicole [00:26:21]: This just tells me like, I'm not saying that the anxious person being afraid of this is not also a problem, but every reason that you've given me that would push a person to do it.

John [00:26:33]: Yeah. Is a poor reason.

Nicole [00:26:34]: Is a bigger problem. Like, that's a morally wrong problem.

John [00:26:39]: I don't disagree with you at all.

Nicole [00:26:40]: And so you're right, just do it because you're not going to miss out on anything. Exactly.

John [00:26:45]: But that doesn't make it not true. That it doesn't. That it, it doesn't influence them because it does influence them. Right. Like it is true that generally people that worry about being cheated on are more likely to be cheated on. Like that's generally true. That doesn't make it okay or correct. But as someone who is anxiously attached, it's good to know that information so that you don't influence in that direction that you don't want.

Nicole [00:27:15]: Well, then how does the anxious person not do that if they are worried about that? Or like, how do they not come across as anxious? Like, I know that you already basically said, you know, like, you have to be okay with every instance. And that is a good example.

John [00:27:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:30]: But what are, what about if somebody does want to ask their partner does feel like they're going to get cheated on, and then they feel like they can't talk to that partner because you're saying that that's going to influence them. So what do they actually do? So that seems like it hinders communication.

John [00:27:46]: I think the difference is in like, you know, a reasonable suspicion versus a blanket worry. So no one really wants to feel like they're untrusted for no reason. So if you're asking someone, are you going to cheat on me or you're not going to cheat on me, you're indicating a lack of trust in that case. And then also what's happening too is again, you're trying to control the situation. Right. Because do your words or does your worry, like, if someone wants to cheat and you're nagging them about it, you're trying to nag them into not cheating. By constantly asking them the question, you're trying to control a situation where that person would have been better off just doing whatever they're gonna do. And then you dealing with those results and choosing what you're gonna do from that point forward.

Nicole [00:28:41]: Well, you're not even nagging them into not doing it. You're asking, asking them to feel better, to soothe the part of you that is worried about it.

John [00:28:49]: And what does that actually do for you?

Nicole [00:28:53]: Like soothes you for like five minutes.

John [00:28:55]: For five minutes. So is that. So it's like eating junk food, right? It's not a healthy behavior. It doesn't prevent the thing and it doesn't actually help you either.

Nicole [00:29:04]: No, you're right.

John [00:29:05]: So that's why I'm saying it's like. But it could actually hurt. The thing is what I'm saying could actually push that person more in that direction.

Nicole [00:29:10]: But still, like, I mean, I'm not being responsible for someone else's.

John [00:29:15]: It's not about, yeah, you're not going to be responsible for it. But I'm just saying it's like it's in influence, right? And so now boyfriend stays out till 4am doesn't say where he's going and shows up. Okay? Now there's a reasonable suspicion. Now it's very valid to be like, hey, were you with someone last night? Good question to ask, right? I mean that's a valid question at that point. It's not a ridiculous, it's not trying to control the outcome. It's. I want to know this information. Where were you at last night? Is there a reason why you turned off your phone? Right? Like these are good questions to ask that are not, they're reasonable under that circumstance, right? Someone goes to the store for 10 minutes and then it actually takes them 20 minutes instead. Starting to ask those questions now that's not appropriate to ask those questions now it's like trying to control the outcome. Now it's like anxiety driven. So it's like I get the, obviously the anxiety, the anxious attachment, but doing the behaviors that reinforce it are not going to help. That's what I'm saying is that it's because anytime you're trying to control the outcome, you just have to be okay with the outcome. Whatever it is. If this person in a relationship, in order to be secure, you have to say, okay, well I trust this person. People that you trust can betray your trust. Happens all the time. If they do, that's their choice. And I'm learning information about them. But I'm not going to try to control them to make it so that they don't betray my trust, because if that's. That's their choice, it belongs to them. I'm not going to try to take someone else's choice. Right. I can tell them that I love them. I can emphasize that I don't tolerate cheating to some, you know, like, what will happen if that is the case, if I suspect those things. You know what I mean? Like, I can do the things that are. I can live by example. You know, I can do those things. But ultimately I have to give a person their own free will. And if they choose to cheat, then I have to act accordingly and make my choices based off of that. But I can't control. You know, it's like when you're trying to put someone into the box and trying to control what they're. They're doing, then it just. It doesn't help because then you can't ever be securely attached because it relies on trust.

Nicole [00:31:39]: Yeah. Which I agree with you. I do want to say, though, that I think that as a society, we're actually seeing this happen in real time with women living alone longer.

John [00:31:53]: Yeah. Yep.

Nicole [00:31:55]: Because, I mean, let's be real. I'm not saying women don't cheat.

John [00:31:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:00]: But also, men that are single don't really want to be held by themselves. Some men do, but it's a very small amount.

John [00:32:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:09]: Most men that are single would like a woman, but a lot of women that are single, they're fine either way.

John [00:32:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:18]: But I think it's because women are naturally more anxious and men are naturally more. More avoidant.

John [00:32:25]: I think that's true.

Nicole [00:32:26]: Yeah.

John [00:32:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:27]: And so I think women are, again, like, as a group of people, like, learning to accept being on their own.

John [00:32:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:35]: Because they don't trust men very much. In the sense of, like, the cheating thing.

John [00:32:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:42]: Or in the sense of like, men want younger or hotter women. And so it is harder for women to feel secure with a man in general because even if they're with a man that, that she trusts.

John [00:32:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:57]: And she's not worried about cheating or whatever. She might be worried that she doesn't look good anymore or maybe he's not attracted to her. Maybe she gained weight. Maybe she had kids.

John [00:33:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:08]: And now she's worried that he's. Maybe now he will cheat because she doesn't look the same.

John [00:33:13]: Let me, let me stop you for a second, though. Do you think that your security of being a secure person should be based on Someone else.

Nicole [00:33:23]: No, I don't think that.

John [00:33:24]: Right. So.

Nicole [00:33:25]: But I think it's hard from a biological standpoint.

John [00:33:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:30]: I'm trying to give you perspective. I agree with you that when the thing that you're attracted to, if you're a heterosexual person.

John [00:33:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:40]: Has all these things to make you anxious.

John [00:33:42]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:43]: Because I agree with you. But I think, like I said, I think that's why women are okay being alone.

John [00:33:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:48]: Because the thing is, like, what has helped me become more secure from being anxious from all that stuff is thinking about what if you, God forbid, did something or whatever.

John [00:33:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:59]: Like, I'm not going back out in the dating world, but I do know I'd be okay alone.

John [00:34:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:05]: Even though I wouldn't want to be.

John [00:34:07]: Yeah. Which is funny.

Nicole [00:34:08]: But the thing is, like, it's sad, though, as, like, a woman, that, like, that is where you would have to be okay. You know what I mean? And we're not really teaching men to be okay being on their own.

John [00:34:25]: Okay. So it's. I mean, it really comes back to. I mean, you can almost make secure attachment and stoicism a parallel to each other because it really comes back to this idea that you cannot make your sense of inner. Well, being dependent on someone else. Exactly. Because what you're saying biologically is true. I mean, as a woman, you should have a lot more reasons if you're anxious to be anxious. If you're not securely attached to be anxious. Because men, biologically women and men cheat, but men will cheat in a perfectly happy relationship just because they will. How many famous athletes and politicians and whatever have thrown away their whole lives and careers over one sexual encounter that

Nicole [00:35:15]: they didn't even really care about most of the time. Yeah.

John [00:35:17]: That's how men are kind of biologically wired, as a.

Nicole [00:35:21]: Sounds like they need some tuning to a degree. Some evolutionary tuning.

John [00:35:26]: Lots of years of evolution. Thad.

Nicole [00:35:28]: Yeah.

John [00:35:29]: We don't have thousands of years to fix that problem, but that is how men are generally wired. So I get that. Right. But the point is that you have to if you're going to be secure.

Nicole [00:35:42]: It doesn't depend on anything.

John [00:35:44]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:35:45]: I totally get that.

John [00:35:46]: Yeah, yeah, it's hard.

Nicole [00:35:47]: But also, if you realize that women, you say this all the time, you're like, men's main thing is their careers and women's main thing is their family.

John [00:35:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:57]: So how are you supposed to say be fine on your own when supposedly your whole life, mission and purpose is based on a family which includes a man?

John [00:36:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:08]: If you're. You Know, having children, like biologically.

John [00:36:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:13]: That could just let me blow the whole thing up.

John [00:36:16]: Yeah, let me flip it. So if a man's mission is his. His career, let's say his purpose in life, right?

Nicole [00:36:23]: His.

John [00:36:24]: His. His mission, right? Like that's. His life is built around his mission. What should a man do if he loses his career or loses his job or loses his mission? Again, should he freak out and have his whole life be destroyed? It's gonna be a hard thing, but again, he should have the same stoic or secureness. Right?

Nicole [00:36:45]: So it's like we all the same. Because your career doesn't give you love. Like, your career is not a companion. Your career is not gonna sit and hold your hand on your deathbed.

John [00:36:55]: But you have.

Nicole [00:36:55]: It's not the same.

John [00:36:56]: Yeah, it's not the same. But you have. Regardless, you have attachments, right?

Nicole [00:37:03]: And that's what attach. These are the attachment styles.

John [00:37:08]: But the true, you know, secure. Being secure in yourself is non attachment.

Nicole [00:37:18]: And I do get that. I'm not saying that I don't. I'm just trying to give, you know, I get that's.

John [00:37:25]: That's why it's hard. Yeah, that's why it's hard.

Nicole [00:37:27]: It is this, like. I mean, everything that I'm saying makes sense, especially to women. Especially for sure. Like women that are anxious, especially to, like, people that have been through these things.

John [00:37:38]: But. But the question is like, do you want to live this way? And if the question is like, yes, if, if you, if you're fine living this way, then everything you're saying, totally valid. And these are all good reasons to. To. To stay this way because they're good reasons. If you're like, no, I don't want to live this way, then you have to throw out all the good reasons, because good reasons are not. It's still being anxiously attached. It's still trying to control outcomes. It's still being dependent on things external to yourself that you don't have control of. And anytime you're. The formula for anxiety, if you want

Nicole [00:38:16]: to create anxiety, is trying to control things you can't control.

John [00:38:19]: Exactly. If you take someone in any situation, you give them and you make them try to control something that they can't control that's outside of their control and they will be anxious, that will create anxiety.

Nicole [00:38:29]: Right.

John [00:38:29]: It's like when people get anxious about the stocks in the stock market that they have invested in, it's because it's outside their control. Something else is changing that thing.

Nicole [00:38:38]: That's true.

John [00:38:38]: You know, when people Are anxious about whatever it is, the weather on their. On their honeymoon or whatever. Again, it's because it's outside their control. So if you give someone something outside of their control and then try to. They try to control that thing, they will be anxious. So the formula to get rid of anxiety is always to let go of control.

Nicole [00:39:00]: You're not wrong. Yeah, I'm not saying you're wrong. You're saying is true.

John [00:39:03]: It's not easy.

Nicole [00:39:04]: I talked a lot about like a lot of women's anxieties. I think you should try to talk about how men can present as anxious because, you know, like I said, it is typically mostly women.

John [00:39:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:17]: But I think it'd be good maybe for men that are listening to hear that maybe they're on the anxious side. Like, you gave them a good answer. But like, what. How would an anxious man show up, do you think?

John [00:39:28]: Okay, so women are more anxious usually in a relationship. Men are more anxious before the relationships be gone.

Nicole [00:39:36]: Women are also anxious before too, when they're like dating and they go on a date with guy and they've been on two dates and they're like, he's the one.

John [00:39:44]: Yeah, but guys will like text a bunch of times or call her a bunch of times or like say stuff like that. But I mean, I guess if you're looking at it in the relationship, I mean, a guy can be anxious as well. But it's going to be. I mean, it's going to be a similar type of thing. Right. Again, it comes to trying to control the outcome. So maybe you would see guys that you would actually say are controlling where they need to know where their partner is all the time. You should know where your partner is all the time. But it's the way that you present that of trying to control what she wears and trying to control. Again, you should also talk about those things. It's not a control or insecurity if it's something that's not appropriate. Obviously, a girl going out to a nightclub when she's in a relationship or married is not appropriate. It's not control.

Nicole [00:40:36]: Or a guy going to a nightclub.

John [00:40:37]: Yeah, exactly. But I think you'll see that anxiety be displayed by again, a man is more likely to try to control overtly where a woman's more likely to control covertly. Right. So an overt type of control is like trying to tell her, you can't wear that, or you can't go here, you can't do this. These are ways. You've heard of guys that do this where they, they're basically trying to imprison the woman so that she can't do anything, she can't talk to anyone. Which again, I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't have guidelines or boundaries or even rules for the relationship, but they can be driven by trying to protect the relationship from a secure place like our relationship, where it's like, no, these are things we're gonna do.

Nicole [00:41:33]: Respect each other. Yeah.

John [00:41:34]: Or they can be driven from anxiety where it's like, I'm trying to prevent things from happening to me. I'm trying to control this person.

Nicole [00:41:44]: Controlling you exactly.

John [00:41:45]: Control the outcome. So I think that's where you see it a lot of times with guys where they're more masculine, they're gonna more overtly control. Where they're more feminine, they're gonna more covertly try to check up, text. A lot of times ask, are you okay? All the time. Right.

Nicole [00:42:02]: Well, then how does a woman know if it's like, I mean, I get it. Like, yeah, what are some boundaries versus. I mean, I guess you did kind of say like being like, don't go there versus, like having a boundary of like, we don't go to nightclubs or do single people things.

John [00:42:18]: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a matter of.

Nicole [00:42:20]: Because I think women are afraid of that too, without going down a different path. But like, women, like, even when a guy's having a boundary, might think he's being controlling. And we've had, we've done episodes about this.

John [00:42:32]: The difference is, is he trying to tell you to do this, and if you don't comply, he's going to emotionally manipulate you into complying, give you an emotional consequence, or if you don't comply to that thing, is he going to be okay and you're just going to risk losing him? Is he going to walk away? Right. Like, that's the difference is like, if I'm trying to control someone, I'm basically tell them, you have to do this, and I'm putting the pressure on them to make them do the thing. And I'm either gonna physically make them do the thing or I'm going to financially or emotionally, I'm using some leverage on them in order to get them to do the thing.

Nicole [00:43:13]: Yeah.

John [00:43:14]: When I'm not, If I'm not controlling, I could say the exact same thing. But my consequence is you're going to. I'm not going to accept that you're

Nicole [00:43:24]: going to leave the relationship.

John [00:43:25]: I'm going to leave the relationship. Or like, this is going to Be. I mean, I'm going to have to reconsider things, like, truly, not as a manipulative, but, you know, I mean, depending on where you are in the relationship, if you're just dating someone in the first couple weeks and you're like, hey, I don't really like it when you wear that kind of stuff going out and like, ah, you can't tell me what to do. I'm just going to do anyway. Okay. Right. It's like that. Okay. It has a lot behind it. It's like, okay, I'm, you know, like, you don't even have to make the threat at that point. You're reconsidering the relationship or whether you want to continue dating this person, like, later in the relationship. Then maybe it is like, oh, no. I'm like, this is a hard line. I'm gonna walk away. And you mean it? It's not just a threat in order to get someone to do what you want.

Nicole [00:44:12]: Yeah.

John [00:44:13]: No, but that's where, like, being secure means that you're okay with whether. For the outcome is. And so if you're a secure person, you can't be a controlling person.

Nicole [00:44:21]: Yeah.

John [00:44:21]: Because you're like, hey, you can have your choices. I don't like him. I don't have to like them. But I'm okay with whatever you want to choose because I'm going to also choose what I'm going to choose in response to that.

Nicole [00:44:31]: But here's the thing. And they also said in the book. Yeah, again, like, I want to reiterate to people that you can be secure and then something could happen or you could date someone that makes you anxious or avoidant.

John [00:44:44]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:45]: It's just so like, yeah, this is not. And I'm sure even you can say you haven't always been secure.

John [00:44:52]: Yeah, no. Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:53]: Like, everyone has dabbled in these sometimes. Yes. We do have one more prevalent than the other one.

John [00:45:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:01]: And normally it's based on our experiences or who we're with at the time or, you know, how we grew up or whatever it is. So I just wanted to reiterate that because they also say it in the book, like, they have a lot of examples of like, you know, this girl, she was. But then she dated this avoidant guy and it made her anxious.

John [00:45:19]: Oh, yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:45:20]: You know, which I'm not saying like, he made her, but she wanted. She chose to still pursue him.

John [00:45:25]: It's gonna push you in that direction, especially if you still are holding on to attachments. Like, for example, like in our relationship if you suddenly started, like, dressing provocatively and going out with your friends every night, I would start to move more towards the anxiety side of the. Because I'd be like, what the hell is it? What's going on here? Right. This would be a weird thing. Right. So it's like, it doesn't mean I'm going to just flip out and become totally anxiously attached.

Nicole [00:45:54]: No.

John [00:45:56]: But I'll either have to have a talk with you and come to a resolution, or I'll have to become anxiously attached. There's no in between. You know what I'm saying? So I think the other piece is, like, when things aren't addressed, if you let that behavior go and you're like, okay, well, I don't want to say something to them because I don't want to ruin the relationship or I don't want to deal with this conflict you're going to. Everyone's going to become anxiously attached at that point in that relationship. Right. Because now they're doing something that you actively don't like, and you're not leaving the relationship. You're forcing yourself to stay in there. So if you're attached at all, you have to be anxiously attached at that point. There's no way that you're not going to be at that point. So it's like, I think that the big thing is when the things come up, you have to address the things. Otherwise it'll create the avoidance or the attachment or the anxiousness.

Nicole [00:46:53]: Yeah, no, that's true. And they won't push someone to do the thing if you handle it correctly. If you're not just stuck in the anxious.

John [00:47:00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's more like you have to have.

Nicole [00:47:04]: It's better to be. I guess a better way to put it is you have to be vulnerable.

John [00:47:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:11]: Rather than be like, do you still love me? Are you still attracted to me? Are you going to cheat on me? Are you interested in other people being like, hey, like, I'm feeling a little insecure.

John [00:47:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:23]: You know, like, I know that you appreciate me and you care about me, but I'm just having these, you know, anxious thoughts right now.

John [00:47:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:31]: And that also kind of, like, makes it easier for your partner to reassure you in a way where they probably don't feel threatened that you don't trust them or whatever.

John [00:47:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:42]: Where it's more of a you problem. Because a lot of. Most of the time it isn't us problem. It's not even the other person. Like I said, unless. And like you said, unless he's coming home at 4am and he didn't tell you where he's at. Yeah, that's going to make anyone anxious.

John [00:47:56]: Well, the opposite also works, right? So, I mean, I talked about, like, you give a dog a bad name, you might as well hang the dog. But it's also true that if you give a dog a good name, then that dog may become a watchdog for you. I don't know what the equivalent is, but it's even in Stephen Covey's book, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, I think he said, or maybe it was in how to Win Friends and Influence. Influence People, Dale Carnegie. But there's a story where this lady, I think it was in that one where he. Where she has these boys are just like on her lawn all the time, like trampling her grass and stuff and messing up her lawn. And one of the kids is really the big rebel in the group. He just doesn't care what anyone says. He just disrespects authority totally. He's kind of the ringleader of all of the trouble the boys get into. So then she talks to this boy and she says, I know that the other boys follow you and I know that you're the one who's really in charge and I know that they're afraid of you or they respect you. You know, something like that. And she's like, I need your help. I need you to make sure nobody steps foot on my yard, that they don't trample my flowers or whatever. And so that boy then, like, made sure that the other, like, he had his. Making sure that all the other boys did not go on in the yard. Right. And so before then, she was trying to fight them all and trying to tell them not to do it. And so the point is that if you want to influence someone in the positive direction, give them the positive attributes you want them to have already, and maybe they already have them, but reinforce those things. So instead of saying, are you cheating on me? Are you going to cheat on me? Do you love me? And said, if you say, oh, I see how much that you love me, I know that you would never cheat on me. I appreciate that about you. I know that you're such a respectable man and someone who I can trust. Right. Saying those things. I'm not saying that the person can't cheat, but it makes it harder, a lot harder, because they're being pushed into a direction. They're being pulled into a direction instead of push into a direction. Because if you give someone a good name, they're going to live up to that. They're going to.

Nicole [00:50:18]: It sounds like you're just trying to make them feel guilty that if they did it.

John [00:50:21]: But you can't do it that way. You can't do it in order to make them feel guilty. That's the thing is because then it becomes a manipulation. It has to be like.

Nicole [00:50:28]: I'm not saying to do it to

John [00:50:28]: make them feel guilty. This is just also. Even in your own mind. Right. And we can all fall susceptible to this instead of looking. A lot of times the reason why we worry and we spiral into anxiety is we look for negative confirmations. We look for things that.

Nicole [00:50:42]: To confirm our negative point of view.

John [00:50:44]: Exactly. But we can also look for things positive confirmations.

Nicole [00:50:49]: Here's the only issue I have with what you're saying because you're not wrong. And I. I agree with what you're saying.

John [00:50:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:50:56]: The only problem I have.

John [00:50:58]: Yeah, I know.

Nicole [00:50:59]: Do you know what it is?

John [00:51:00]: Yeah. Being blindsided. No.

Nicole [00:51:02]: Well, in a way is that you literally just said. And this is true.

John [00:51:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:07]: That men can cheat on you even if they're happy.

John [00:51:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:12]: Even if they have a wife that's doing all the things that you can do. And I also agree that you can't control him either.

John [00:51:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:19]: But I'm just saying that it's really hard to listen to this when men typically are more likely that even if you do the things you're saying.

John [00:51:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:29]: It won't matter.

John [00:51:30]: Right. But at that same token, even though that is true, if you appeal to a sense of honor, it's less likely

Nicole [00:51:38]: you will give him honor.

John [00:51:39]: Yeah, yeah, it's less likely. Right. So a man biologically. Right. Would he cheat in a happy relationship? Yeah. Like a man would do. Not all men would. But I'm just saying that like. Yes, but would he cheat in a happy relationship where the wife completely trusts him and lets her him know how much she trusts him and talks about how honorable of a man he is. He still could. He still could. He still could. But now it's not just now. Now it's like. Okay, but don't think of it as

Nicole [00:52:19]: relationships start out like that. Like unless you're in a weird situation like us. Like, I mean. Okay. Because I'm thinking back to when I was, you know, fresh out of high school and dating my long term, you know, in a long term relationship and I got cheated on and I was secure. Right. And I did trust him and I never asked him any of those questions.

John [00:52:41]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:52:42]: And he still did it anyway. Like, yes. Could I have, like, amped him up more and said some of the things. Sure. I didn't know at the time, but I wasn't saying any of the things. And it still happened. And so, like, yes, it does, but also at the same time, again, like, why not? I'm not saying this to say that I wouldn't do it.

John [00:53:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:05]: But I'm saying this to say, why is it my responsibility or whoever's responsibility is to instill morals into this person?

John [00:53:15]: Right. It's not. But. But the, the thing is, like, what I'm trying to show is the different. Like, you can. You can fall on one side or the other side. And one side, your anxiety and worry is more likely to push someone in the direction you don't want. On the other side, it's more likely to pull them in the direction you do. And so if you're going to talk to someone rather than saying, I'm worried you're gonna cheat on me, do you love me? All these things instead getting yourself to go the other way and saying, I am so glad I'm with someone that I know that I don't even have to worry about cheating on me. I'm so glad I'm with someone that shows me that they love me all the time, and I know I can feel secure in their love. Now you're creating a good name to live up to. It's better to be that. So another way to think about this.

Nicole [00:54:09]: Wait, hold on. You have your example. This is my example.

John [00:54:13]: Okay. Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:14]: And I think it's better.

John [00:54:16]: Okay, go for it.

Nicole [00:54:18]: It's not anything new. Yeah, but I hear what you're saying, but I think the better way to view it is that if you're worried about something happening.

John [00:54:29]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:30]: It could never happen. And you spent all this time worrying.

John [00:54:32]: Right? Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:34]: Versus, if you're not worried about it, if you trust that it's not going to happen, or you encourage your partner and tell them, oh, I know how much you love me, then even if it did happen, Right. You did not take all the time worrying. You did not waste all your time making it more miserable.

John [00:54:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:54]: You know, like, it's not going to make it better if it were to happen by worrying about it.

John [00:55:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:02]: Or stressing about it before it happens.

John [00:55:04]: Well, okay, and here's another addition to that, because I like what you said. Which makes you feel better and which makes them feel better. Like. Like which. Which makes both of you feel worse and which makes both. Both of you feel better. Right?

Nicole [00:55:15]: Right? Yeah.

John [00:55:16]: If you nag Someone all the time and be like, are you gonna cheat on me? Right. Okay. It probably makes you not feel good. And it probably makes them not feel good because they feel like, do you not see that I love you? Do you not trust me? Right. And yeah, it could happen. Right. But. But on the other side, saying the positive side of it makes you feel good definitely makes them feel good because they feel like, oh, my partner actually trusts me, cares about me, showing me, like, praising me. It's almost like even though the anxiety is asking questions that are coming from insecurity, it also does feel like a lack of trust or an insult. Even though it's not. Like the person doesn't mean it personally, but it does feel like. Like judging of you. Right. As the other person.

Nicole [00:56:05]: If you view it that way.

John [00:56:06]: I mean, it does.

Nicole [00:56:08]: I mean, a lot of insecurities don't come from people like the person, but

John [00:56:14]: to the other person. It's still going to feel that way. Right. Whereas the other way feels like, good. Like, you give someone good attributes. Another way to think about it is that, like.

Nicole [00:56:26]: But if you don't feel good about yourself, you can't even. No, like, yeah, you. Like, you're trying to make yourself feel better. Like you. It's hard for you to be like, am I gonna hurt someone's feelings by asking a question? Yeah, like. Like it doesn't seem like an obviously offensive question. And if I'm being honest, like, if you ask somebody something like that, I get that it's annoying and I get that it's like someone rooted in their insecurity and their anxiety.

John [00:56:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:55]: But also, if you just go straight to how it is affecting you, I think that that's a separate problem.

John [00:57:01]: I agree, but what I'm saying is I'm. I'm saying more that why not pick the thing that.

Nicole [00:57:09]: No, I agree with people, but I'm

John [00:57:12]: just saying another way. Another way to think about it too is if someone said if. If someone is appreciated and admired for traits. Right. They're less likely to diminish those traits. Right. So if someone's admired. Yeah. Because if he's admired for being honorable and telling the truth all the time and being respectable and being trustworthy. Now if he cheats, it's not just getting away with it.

Nicole [00:57:41]: Now if he cheats, you just really stuck the knife in. You shattered his whole Persona.

John [00:57:46]: Because it's like, in the absence of that, we'll give you three scenarios real quick. One scenario is a neutral scenario. You don't say anything. He's In a happy relationship and he cheats. It's like, it's neutral. Right. Okay. Second scenario is you've constantly asked him, is he going to cheat, Doubted him, questioned his love, and then he cheats, and now he doesn't really feel bad

Nicole [00:58:15]: because you thought he was gonna do it anyway.

John [00:58:16]: Yeah. So he doesn't feel as bad about it. Right. Like, he actually feels less bad about it in that case, that's fucked up. But, But I mean, if someone is constantly, like, thinking you're gonna do something and you do it.

Nicole [00:58:27]: Yeah, but it's still fucked up.

John [00:58:28]: I give it to you, it is fucked up. But you don't feel as bad about it. Even if, you know, if I constantly accuse you of shoplifting and then you shoplifted, like, if I never accused you of it, you wouldn't feel. I mean, you'd feel worse than if I, like, okay, well, I mean, it's like, I haven't let anyone down. Don't think very highly of me. Right, Okay, I understand. But then you have the third scenario of. And now if he does it, he's going to feel like. Because not only did he break his promise, but now all these things that he was praised for, he can't accept the praise for it anymore because he knows it's not true. So again, I'm not saying that you should try to manipulate people into not cheating, because that's not the point. The point is, is that it's better to.

Nicole [00:59:16]: For everyone to think positive instead of negative.

John [00:59:18]: Exactly. And even if you're wrong, even if you're wrong, you won't have spent all this time putting yourself through a bunch of worry, Miserable. Yeah. And it's like, okay, even if you're wrong and you gave all these positive attributes and this person proved to not be true to them, then okay, it's. You gotta still deal with the same situation.

Nicole [00:59:38]: Yeah.

John [00:59:38]: But at least you didn't put yourself through misery and then more misery.

Nicole [00:59:41]: Right.

John [00:59:42]: So.

Nicole [00:59:42]: No, you're right. And hopefully this helped people. I mean, it was a very, like, raw, real way of describing this. But maybe that will get through to people more potentially, you know what I mean? Because you can read a book. I'm sure a lot of this is in the attached book. Like, I mean, I mentioned quite a

John [01:00:02]: few times, not the new stuff we just invented.

Nicole [01:00:05]: No, no, but I'm saying the gist of it probably is, but it's like, you know, I don't know, just hopefully this will help people. It's very, you know, we're just Putting it all out there. And you had really good points of viewing it. Like, you do have to let go. And it is better. Even if your anxiety, like, wants you to think about the bad stuff and panic and worry, it's better to not do that, to try to, like, uplift the person that you're worried about, you know, and, like, view them that way because, like, they probably are more that way than you even think, too. Because your fear and your anxiety is also portraying them probably in a way that isn't fully how they are either. And let go of the fact that you can't control them and you don't want to control them. You don't want somebody to just behave. Because you're controlling them.

John [01:01:03]: Yeah. No, because then you always have to keep them on that leash and you'll always be anxious. Like, you have to be like, oh, I let this dog off the leash and it runs around and I don't have to worry.

Nicole [01:01:14]: I trained it good.

John [01:01:15]: Exactly. Yeah. It's like, I trained it good by

Nicole [01:01:18]: being like, you're such a good husband and you love me so much and you better not shoplift.

John [01:01:24]: But I think also, like, on the other side, just real quick on dealing with someone who, like, if you're on the other side of it and you're dealing with someone who has anxious attachment, I think the biggest thing is, like, to not go overboard in the reassurance. You have to give them reassurance, obviously, like, you can't deny reassurance. I don't think that's a good formula. No, but you have to not oversell the reassurance.

Nicole [01:01:44]: Like, the boundary, the reassurance with boundaries.

John [01:01:47]: I do, I do. Of course I love you. I do. Right. And then it's like. But if you don't want to oversell and be like, let me show you how much haven't you seen, like, then now you're just creating more anxiety because you're overselling it. Like, the real secure is like, yeah, it's like, you don't have to worry about it. It's just not. It's just a second thought. You don't even give a second thought about it. Like, you're just answering. You're just giving reassurance as if it doesn't matter. And then setting the boundaries when it becomes excessive to be like, okay, look, this is great.

Nicole [01:02:23]: And not overthinking things, I think is very important because that kind of ties in with what I said earlier with, like, anxious people can pick up on people's emotions quicker, but they're also tend to be wrong because they jump to conclusions. Yeah. And I think women also overthink a lot as well, too. And so I think, like, trying not to jump to conclusions and overthink is also a really good way. It's hard, especially if you're a woman that has been cheated on or things like that, because when you do get cheated on, you can be like, how did I miss the signs? And then even people who cheat will be like, well, they didn't know. Like, they didn't pick up on what I was doing. You know, like, they kind of blame the other person. And. But I think if you try not to. To overthink too much and realize it's not your responsibility to pick up on every single little detail.

John [01:03:23]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:25]: Then you can, like, also let go of a lot of that anxiety because I think, like, that ties into it as well. The overthinking creates a lot of the anxiety and all these things. And, like, feeling like it's your responsibility. Again, like, I don't like the, like, putting responsibility on how a man should act on a woman, like, doing something or not doing something. You know what I mean? Like, and again, it's. It goes back, though, to what you're saying is, like, he's gonna act that way no matter what you do. So, like, you need to realize it's not your responsibility.

John [01:03:56]: No.

Nicole [01:03:57]: To train a man to not leave you or whatever you're worried about.

John [01:04:02]: Yeah. No, you can just influence positively or negatively. And that's the thing to think. You always have the ability to influence.

Nicole [01:04:08]: It won't hurt to influence positively.

John [01:04:10]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:04:10]: Like, even if they do leave you or cheat on you or whatever it is.

John [01:04:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:15]: They were probably gonna do that regardless.

John [01:04:17]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:18]: And you gave it the best shot.

John [01:04:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:20]: So you did the best you could.

John [01:04:22]: Yeah. Yeah. And then I'd say, like, the last thing about dealing with it on the. Like, if you're dealing with someone who's anxious is. Well, I'll give you a good example. One of my friends, he. When I was a lot younger, he had a girlfriend, and whenever we would go somewhere, she would just be texting, and then he would immediately, like, he'd be like. He would text her back. Or he would get on the phone and he'd walk out the room, and he'd be talking to her. He'd be, hey, baby. Hey. Yeah, no, it's okay. Yeah, like, every single time. And so, like, that would happen four or five times in the night, and it's like, okay, that was not the way to handle it. Because he's just pacifying for, like, 30 minutes.

Nicole [01:05:09]: Yeah.

John [01:05:09]: And making the problem worse.

Nicole [01:05:10]: And then the next call comes.

John [01:05:11]: Exactly. Then the next call comes. The answer is, like, to do the reassurance the one time and then put the boundary and be like, okay, now you've given the reassurance. Now you have to teach the other person that they have to trust you because you cannot operate in a way where you're not trusted. That's not gonna work. That's not gonna help them either. Cause then it's like you're helping them put the leash on you to make sure that there's now feeling like they're actually controlling. Like they're controlling the outcome of the situation. Because the reason why you're doing the thing is because they're constantly worrying. So they're connecting now their worry with getting the positive outcome, which that has to not be.

Nicole [01:05:53]: Yeah. And then she's only calling you four times. It'll probably be eight the next time you go out and do something.

John [01:05:59]: All right, I think we pretty much covered that. What do we have. We have nothing going on in our relationship. But just don't think. Just child issues. But we won't get into the child issues here. But, I mean. But we went through some child issues stuff together, and it was good. And we didn't. We didn't get into any. Any arguments about it. So it's good.

Nicole [01:06:27]: Yeah. It's been a lot.

John [01:06:28]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [01:06:29]: It's been hard. Yeah, I know. On both sides.

John [01:06:33]: Yeah. All right, Well, I think that covers all the attachment styles. If you got a question for us, you can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com or check out the website, which I still need to Update better than PerfectPod.com and we'll see you next week.