John [00:00:00]: It's better to be direct because let's be honest. Saying, like, you need to decenter men from your life. What do you even mean?

Nicole [00:00:06]: Right. Yeah. Then they have to look it up on TikTok.

John [00:00:07]: Right?

Nicole [00:00:08]: Say what you actually mean.

John [00:00:09]: Right. Like, what's actually the problem?

Nicole [00:00:10]: You're making the attention of men too much of a priority in your life to the detriment of other things in your life. But if you're saying those other words, you're saying it because you want to Trojan horse all this other shit.

John [00:00:19]: Right? You want to, like, kick all the men off the earth.

Nicole [00:00:22]: Exactly.

John [00:00:22]: That's basically what you're acting like when you say decenterment beyond the perfect.

Nicole [00:00:27]: We discover through our flaws. We completely judge better. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John [00:00:50]: That's right.

Nicole [00:00:51]: Today we're going to be talking about decentering men. That's right. Decentering men. Because men are too centered.

John [00:00:57]: Decentering. No, that's not what it means.

Nicole [00:01:01]: That's what it means.

John [00:01:02]: No.

Nicole [00:01:03]: Yeah, no, it's been. I guess it's been going around the interwebs a lot. Like, as a hashtag or.

John [00:01:11]: It's not really new, though. Like, the concentration is not really new.

Nicole [00:01:15]: Okay, explain.

John [00:01:17]: I mean. Okay, so for anyone who doesn't know what decentering men is, it's basically something that is told to women when they're usually acting in a certain way, that usually another woman feels like that woman is centering her life around me. Men. That's what it's called. Decentering men.

Nicole [00:01:37]: Sure. Okay.

John [00:01:37]: And that can be like, oh, she wants plastic surgery so that men think she's attractive, or she's wearing this. Certain things so that men will like her. I guess, if. You know what pick me. Energy is. I guess it's.

Nicole [00:01:52]: It's kind of similar.

John [00:01:53]: It's not the exact same thing.

Nicole [00:01:55]: Right.

John [00:01:55]: But it's kind of a similar vibe. It's kind of. And I don't think I've ever heard a man say it to a woman. That's why I say, typically it's women saying it to other women.

Nicole [00:02:05]: Yeah.

John [00:02:06]: And typically it's more, if I'm being honest, like, feminist women saying it to women who are like, I want to settle down and have a family. Or, like, because sometimes it's not even, like, the extreme version, like, sure, there might actually be a woman who is, like, putting Too much of her attention into male validation. But a lot of times it's still used when it shouldn't really be used.

Nicole [00:02:35]: Yeah, yeah. I think it's got like, it's one of those things where it's a good concept. Like it is a good concept, like to decenter to not make your life as a woman centered around men. But then it gets abused into a negative connotation where it becomes men bashing and some jealousy of like, okay, I don't have a man, so I'm going to try to get other women to not have a man. You know, it's been. And there were some phrases like is it, is it embarrassing to have a boyfriend now? Like, so if all these women are these centering men are like not having much to do with men, then you have a boyfriend now you're, you're not playing in the, for the team, right? Like you've, you know, you've, you've abandoned the team because now you're a traitor because you have a boyfriend and that you're not with it. Right. So I think that's kind of the group think mentality. But like the concept of don't center your life around men makes a lot of sense. As a single woman, you should be actively like pursuing hobbies, interests, other things, like going to the gym, you know, going for a run, whatever is like dance or something.

John [00:03:48]: That is, that's very like man things for you to say at first. Like I'm just like, it's just funny doing art. You're not wrong, but it's just funny. You're like, you know, fol. Focus on yourself. Like going to the gym, going for a run. These are so like masculine, healthy stuff. It's not that women don't do them.

Nicole [00:04:04]: I think I'm saying those things because those are healthy things that would attract a man. Because women that need this advice, they're trying to do all these things to attract men. Whereas it's like, and I give guys the same advice, it's like, do all these things for yourself and then you will attract someone by a, as a byproduct of you doing these things to improve yourself. Like if you're, if your focus is on improving yourself, but if your focus is, oh, I'm going to the gym so I can do squats so I can have a nice booty so I can attract a man, then your focus is wrong and your thoughts and your actions behind it are wrong. And it's going to, it's going to reek of the desperation and then also it's going to cause you to be unstable and disturbed all the time when you're not getting the attention that you want, or a man's not interested in you if he puffer fishes you. You know what I'm saying? But so I think at the root, it's like a healthy concept. Right. For single women. We'll talk about married women as well. But then the negative side of it, which is what's going viral, I would say, is the. Is saying that, okay, this patriarchy, and this is what. It's a patriarchal society. And like, this is what men expect from you and don't be this thing. And, and how can you tell if you're. If you haven't decentered yourself against men and it becomes this real antagonistic thing instead of a productive, like, beneficial thing. Right. So, so, and that's where. Where it's not good. Because if you're doing this, like, to fit in with the group, and you're doing this because now you're getting this narrative in your head that, oh, well, screw men. Like, men did all these things or men are the bad guys. And so I'm just gonna focus on myself again. You're doing things for the wrong reason, and you're going to get the negative repercussions of doing things for the wrong reason.

John [00:06:05]: Yeah. I mean, I think that if you use the term decentering men, you don't have pure intentions, period.

Nicole [00:06:12]: Yeah.

John [00:06:12]: Because I think what you said, decentering men is. And I agree with more like focusing on yourself and your personal development.

Nicole [00:06:21]: Yeah.

John [00:06:22]: If that's what you would want to say to a woman, you would say that you don't have to say you should decenter men.

Nicole [00:06:28]: How would you say it?

John [00:06:29]: Instead of decentering men, I would say that you're probably making things harder on yourself because you're focused on something out of your control, whereas doing things for yourself is something you can control and you can't control these other.

Nicole [00:06:47]: But what label would you put on, like, instead of decentering men, the same thing, but unself focused would be what?

John [00:06:54]: Like, focus on yourself.

Nicole [00:06:55]: Focus on yourself. So what's ironic, I think, about the whole thing, if I might, is that focusing on yourself and decentering men are essentially the same thing. Right. Like, I don't think necessarily from a positive standpoint. Right. Like, that's the whole point. But de. Centering men centers men. You see what I'm saying? It's man focused. Like, if I tell. Okay. Because if you tell a woman, all right, stop spending so much of your focus on men and spend that focus on doing things for yourself versus if you tell a woman, decenter men take men out of the center. Now the focus is on men because you're decentering men.

John [00:07:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:44]: As opposed to. Which is literally centering men. Right. So it's like the whole. It's, It's. It's hypocritical. It's ironic in the sense that, like, you're. You're actually doing the opposite of what you're trying to preach to do because you're making the focus be on men instead of making the focus being on your life and yourself and what you should be doing with your life.

John [00:08:04]: Right. But by calling it decentralized. The problem is that the focus is already on men. That's why they talk about the patriarchy, which would be focused on men. So that's why they say decentering men.

Nicole [00:08:15]: Yeah, but then that also, like I said, like, instead of saying what. What not to do, say what to do.

John [00:08:21]: But really, what they even mean by de centering men is not even what you're talking about when someone says decenter men.

Nicole [00:08:30]: Okay.

John [00:08:32]: It is actually what you mentioned earlier about, like, what did you say? Like, the boyfriend or boyfriend's having a boyfriend cringe.

Nicole [00:08:40]: Yeah.

John [00:08:40]: That's the thing is, like, when someone actually says decenter men.

Nicole [00:08:44]: Right.

John [00:08:44]: That's what they're actually telling you to minimize the importance of men in your life. Like.

Nicole [00:08:51]: Right.

John [00:08:52]: Including men that you have chosen.

Nicole [00:08:55]: Right, exactly. That's the point.

John [00:08:56]: Like your boyfriend or your spouse.

Nicole [00:08:58]: Right.

John [00:08:59]: Which is detrimental to any relationship that you're gonna have.

Nicole [00:09:04]: Yeah.

John [00:09:04]: Like, it goes along with two. Like, I see comments from women on the Internet that are like, I hate men and my boyfriend likes that I hate men or like, I hate men, but I love my boyfriend, but he also hates men or something. You know what I mean? Like, how would it feel if your boyfriend was like, I hate women, but I love you, but I hate women and, like, expected you to hate women.

Nicole [00:09:30]: Right. Like, and I love you because you hate women.

John [00:09:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:33]: Right. Like.

John [00:09:34]: Like, yeah. I don't think anybody ever really thinks about the flip side because a woman wouldn't put up with that. And so, like, why are we expecting. And I. I guess I'm gonna be over here on team Men right now.

Nicole [00:09:48]: Yeah.

John [00:09:48]: Because I think it's ridiculous to be like, I hate men.

Nicole [00:09:52]: Right.

John [00:09:53]: When you're with a man and then expecting him to be fine with it or expecting him to endorse your thing. And I'm not saying that I Do think men should hold other men accountable? I'm not saying that. I think that men should stand up to men who do bad things.

Nicole [00:10:08]: For sure. Yeah.

John [00:10:10]: I'm not going to mention those things because we'll probably get our video banned, but we all know what they are.

Nicole [00:10:14]: Okay.

John [00:10:14]: So I'm not saying that men shouldn't, you know, hold other men accountable for the crappy things that they do, but you can't hate men and then have a man. Just like men can't hate women and have a woman.

Nicole [00:10:30]: Right.

John [00:10:31]: It's the same sort of thing. And when you say, like, decenter men in your life now. Yeah. If you're single and, like, your friend is just constantly like, I need a man. I need a man. I need a man, Whatever.

Nicole [00:10:43]: Right.

John [00:10:45]: Again, I think you can bring it up in a way that's not like, decenter men from your life.

Nicole [00:10:49]: Yeah.

John [00:10:50]: And maybe that's just because I do think saying decentering men has gotten a bad rep because it is typically said by these extremes that I just mentioned.

Nicole [00:10:59]: Exactly. Yeah.

John [00:11:00]: But I think it's a better way to support your friend if you're like, look, like, I feel like you're really focusing on this thing that you can't really control. Like, you're really trying to settle down. You're really trying to be a wife. You're really trying to. I totally get that. But you can't force yourself into those situations. And you're driving yourself a little crazy by trying to force yourself into something that you can't control fully.

Nicole [00:11:23]: And you put yourself into a situation where you're gonna either compromise or you're gonna give that desperate energy which is gonna cause you to get taken advantage of. And then the cycle begins anew. Because when a woman's projecting that energy, a guy's like, oh, I can get what I want and I don't need to.

John [00:11:41]: I don't have to do anything.

Nicole [00:11:43]: Exactly. Because she's so desperate to get. Get that attention from men, and it just leads you down the wrong path. But. But the advice applies to men and women. Right. Like the good advice, which is that if you focus on yourself and living your best life, then you're more likely to attract the partner that you're looking for or attract the opposite sex. Right. Attract, you know, a partner.

John [00:12:05]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:05]: It doesn't mean that you. You don't focus at all. It doesn't mean that you don't like that. You're like, okay, if I just live my best life, then magically someone will come into my lap. You'll still have to date, you'll still have to make some effort, but not your focus. Right, right. But, but, and I think the other thing about it too is that in relationships, right, men focus on their purpose, their mission in life. That's how men are centered and women are relationship focused. And a man, a woman will build her life around her man. And that is just how things work. That's how women are generally wired. The feminine, let's say, is wired in that way. And the big problems we have in society is when women try to wire themselves the way that men are with casual sex, with the focus of their lives, with relationships, with motherhood, with all of these things. Like, you know, there's certain. And not every woman has to choose all these things, but biologically, women and femininity is wired to want those things. And so whenever women try to be like a man, that's where they can do it, but they're probably not going to be fulfilled and happy in that role. Right? Like a woman can run a company, she can do all the stuff that, that a man can do. But if a man focuses his whole life on running a company and building his thing or whatever, he may be happy with that life, right, because he feels like he's fulfilling his purpose and mission in life. If a woman focus her life on those things, she's less likely to be happy, right? She's likely to succeed at those things. A lot of women are really successful at those things. So it's not the same thing to say that women can't do the things. It's just to say that women who choose to do those things and make that the center of their lives as opposed to their natural instincts and the things that are, are more feminine to them will probably not feel fulfilled by doing those things. And that's the whole thing about, like with the, with the centering, you know, decentering men is that if you're in a relationship, it's fine to build your life around that man if he's a good man. I mean, you have to make a good, good choice. But if you try to say, okay, well, I'm just going to be like a man and I'm just gonna live this whole separate life and pretend like this, this doesn't matter, and have all of my stuff, you're probably not going to be happy. You're probably not going to be fulfilled.

John [00:14:28]: Sure, yeah.

Nicole [00:14:30]: Yeah.

John [00:14:31]: I mean, I think my thing is that it shouldn't even be like decentermen. Like, that shouldn't even be. Again, Something that we're saying. I think that if I'm being honest in a non selfish way, that women should decenter everyone in their life except themselves. Yeah, that. And I don't say that to mean to be selfish and to only do the things that they want to do. No, but everything that you mention, like that women center themselves around, like their family, the man that they're with, motherhood, those things.

Nicole [00:15:10]: Yeah.

John [00:15:11]: When you give so much to everyone else, which is the feminine, like they are the nurturers, they are the givers. Like men as providers, they also give. But I think women give more emotionally.

Nicole [00:15:25]: Right.

John [00:15:26]: And that requires a different strength than providing physically or monetarily. And so also if you're talking to a woman that you know is single and really wants to be married or whatever and really start that part of her life and be feminine.

Nicole [00:15:44]: Yeah.

John [00:15:44]: Probably for the first time, you know, she is really probably focused on men or whatever, you know, if she's wanting to biologically start a family the natural way. So. But the issue is, is that when you're so absorbed in the giving, especially emotionally or, you know, like if you're a mother or a wife, you know, like, it's not bad to want to give everything you have to the people that you care about the most.

Nicole [00:16:15]: Yeah.

John [00:16:16]: But most women lose sight of what they want, of taking care of themselves.

Nicole [00:16:24]: Yeah.

John [00:16:25]: And so really the better thing to tell women again is more of like, focus on yourself, not in a selfish way.

Nicole [00:16:35]: Yeah.

John [00:16:35]: Like you said, if your mother and you want to go, you need like some workout time. You need to prioritize that into your schedule just as much as anyone else's schedule. And I think a lot of times women's needs and wants take the back seat.

Nicole [00:16:51]: Yeah.

John [00:16:51]: Even when they're single, like, because they'll try to focus on getting the family unit or the thing that they want, you know, like it's not even. Yes. Sometimes when you're single as a woman, you will be able to like focus on yourself and like your own time. It is easier to do that. But at the same time, let's say you're a woman that's like in her 30s and really like the biological clock is ticking and you really want to, you know, have that picture of your life that you wanted.

Nicole [00:17:19]: Yeah.

John [00:17:20]: Like, that does put a pressure on you as a woman and then it does create some of this anxiety. And then you do start centering men, you know, in a way in your life because of that anxiety. Because of that pressure.

Nicole [00:17:34]: Yeah.

John [00:17:35]: And so even though I Can understand where it comes from. Like, you and I both said, it doesn't really help you get to the goal that you want.

Nicole [00:17:45]: Right.

John [00:17:45]: By focusing so much on that aspect. And so, like, again, I think saying decentering men most of the time is kind of like throwing shade at someone. Yeah, but I understand the concept of why people say it. I just don't. I think that phrasing it in a way that tells somebody that they need to focus on themselves and what they can control is a better way than being like, you need to decenter men. And definitely shitting on someone for their partner or as a woman, shitting on your own partner in order to act like, you don't center men in your life. Like, I guess my big issue is women who say to decenter men, when they're in a relationship with a man, that's more of my problem.

Nicole [00:18:38]: That's. That's more.

John [00:18:39]: You know what I mean?

Nicole [00:18:39]: Like, that's like being a. That's like.

John [00:18:43]: That's like being an atheist and you're at church singing. You know what I mean? I don't know.

Nicole [00:18:47]: It's also. It's like a betrayal, though, right? Because.

John [00:18:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:51]: You're like, okay, all the cool girls are doing this, so I'm gonna betray my boyfriend or husband in order to, like, be with the cool. Because I'd rather be approved by the cool girls than be approved by the person I'm with.

John [00:19:05]: Right. That I want to spend my life with and create a family with.

Nicole [00:19:08]: And I'm kind of embarrassed of them because.

John [00:19:11]: Because they're a man.

Nicole [00:19:12]: Right, Exactly. And that's. That's just. Just bad form. Right. What you said about being selfish, I'll call it being selfish is very true. And it's good. And we should all be selfish. Right? The reason why is because. And like, I mean, I tell this to men and to women is that you have to prioritize yourself. You have to take care of yourself first before you can take care of.

John [00:19:36]: Oxygen mask on before.

Nicole [00:19:37]: Yeah, that's the old adage. But. But it comes down to that, you know, like, if you. If you don't maintain the car, you can't drive people anywhere. You know, it's like, so if. If people are like, oh, I need a ride right now, and you're like, well, I gotta change the oil. You have to go and change the oil first, right? You'll be like, okay, you're gonna have to hold up and wait for the ride, because if this car breaks down, then no one's getting a ride. Anywhere. And it's the same thing as, like, you know, I'm always gonna make sure that I get to the gym, I do my runs, whatever I need to do for my health and fitness so I can show up and do the work and be there for people. And. And that might seem selfish to some people, but it's necessary because for the short term, I can ignore those things and I can just put other people's needs ahead of mine and fulfill those. But over the long term, it will run me down to the point where I won't be able to be of any use to anyone. And it's the same thing for many men.

John [00:20:37]: Have a little bit easier time doing that.

Nicole [00:20:39]: Sure, sure.

John [00:20:39]: If you look at a typical family dynamic.

Nicole [00:20:43]: Yeah.

John [00:20:43]: The mom is usually sacrificing the most, you know, rather than the dad. The dad usually does get to do what he wants to do, you know, and then the mom is, like, making sure the kids go to their soccer game and making dinner and, you know, doing all those things.

Nicole [00:20:58]: Yeah.

John [00:20:59]: And so, like, yes, it does work for both people, but I. This is, again, about women and de centering men. So I don't want to go too far. You know, I want to de center men for a minute and talk about how, though, like, women in the way that we're wired. Yeah, I do think we need to hear that more.

Nicole [00:21:17]: Exactly.

John [00:21:17]: Because also, like, as a woman, hearing you even say no, I'm gonna call it selfish. It's hard as a woman to, like, think. Even think selfishly.

Nicole [00:21:27]: But here's the thing about it, and we talked about this, and it's in the book. Both books, the Queen's Code and in the Surrendered Wife or the Empowered Wife. But all. All three of those books is the idea that men want you to say what you want. They want you to be selfish, which

John [00:21:47]: I think men do.

Nicole [00:21:48]: Right.

John [00:21:49]: Because it's harder when you have a child involved.

Nicole [00:21:51]: Yeah, yeah, the child part. But it's also important that you're teaching this lesson to this child. Right.

John [00:21:57]: That's true.

Nicole [00:21:57]: Because the child that grows up with the mother sacrificing all the time and not doing anything for herself also becomes a people pleaser.

John [00:22:07]: That's true.

Nicole [00:22:07]: Because that's what they learn. They learn to sacrifice their own needs. And again, it's not about truly being so, like, being selfish is the best way to be unselfish. Right. Like, it's very true.

John [00:22:19]: You have more to give.

Nicole [00:22:19]: Yeah. Because you're taking.

John [00:22:21]: Pouring from a full cup.

Nicole [00:22:23]: Exactly. And you can't give what you don't have. Right. So you have to love yourself before you can love anyone else. Because the love has to come overflowing from within you. Not something that you can't take, something that you don't. You can't give something away that you don't have. And so that's why it is important. But you're right, I think women struggle with it more. But like I said, men actually want you to tell them what you want. Right. To say, can you help me with this? Can you give me this? Can you? Because it makes us feel more useful. That's what we want to be able to do.

John [00:23:00]: I think, though, without going on a tangent on this point, but I think it's important to mention there has been in society a mis.

Nicole [00:23:10]: Sure.

John [00:23:10]: Communication about that. Because I believe. Yeah, yeah. About neediness. I believe what you're saying and I know it to be true. And I'm sure some. Sure. Some women do as well. However, the men that don't want to step up and be a man.

Nicole [00:23:25]: Right.

John [00:23:25]: Do call it neediness, do put it down. I mean, there's even some people that we know that men that have said some things that do act like a woman's being too needy. And so that is also where women struggle, you know, like, what is the balance, right? Like, how do I ask for this? Is that going to be needy? Is it not going to be needy? So, yeah, you're right.

Nicole [00:23:52]: Yeah. Here's the difference though, because this just applies to men and women in general. I mean, I think it's good that you brought that up because there's like, being needy and asking for what you want, like, or asking for your needs to be met are not the same thing. And you can want the same thing and present it in a needy way or in a. In a way that is. Is not needy. Right? So let's say that you ask for something. You can. And men do it all the time too, right? You can come across as needy as, like, I need this because I need your approval. I need you to like me. I'm trying to get your attention because I'm coming from a place of scarcity versus I would like. If you rub my back. You see what I'm saying? Like asking for something that you want, right? Like, could you do this for me? That's not needy. Saying it like, oh, you know, there's a way you can ask for, could you do this for me? That comes across needy when. When it's coming from a place of, don't you care about me? It's like, I'm just asking you this thing in order to get your attention. I don't you see what I'm saying? That is the needy energy. And I think that's kind of the difference, is that. Not to say that men haven't said anything about women asking for things, but I think most people aren't calibrated enough to really understand the difference between those two. But it's pretty clear that when someone asks you something, they don't necessarily come across as needy. It's. There's a different energy that's coming across, and that's where you don't want to be as a man or a woman.

John [00:25:30]: Yeah. No, I think you're right.

Nicole [00:25:32]: Yeah.

John [00:25:33]: But we need to get back on the center.

Nicole [00:25:35]: Center.

John [00:25:35]: Yeah, back in the center. Back here. Because we talked a lot about single women, and I think we handled that pretty.

Nicole [00:25:43]: Yeah.

John [00:25:44]: Thoroughly.

Nicole [00:25:44]: Yeah.

John [00:25:45]: But again, like, I want women listening to this to realize that if you care about the man you're with.

Nicole [00:25:53]: Yeah.

John [00:25:55]: You don't have to listen to anybody give you crap about you centering your life around a man.

Nicole [00:26:01]: Yeah.

John [00:26:01]: Like, your man should center his life around you and you should center your life around him.

Nicole [00:26:06]: Right.

John [00:26:07]: Like, yes. If it's one way. If you're just centering your life around a man and he doesn't give two shits about you. Yeah, that's a problem. But there's nothing wrong with a woman centering her life around a man and a man centering his life around a woman.

Nicole [00:26:22]: For sure. In. In the sense that, like, even, like, I mean, if you flip it, how would you feel as a woman if your man was going to get you flowers or get you flowers or he's going to do a romantic date or do something nice for you, and his friends were like, oh, you're whipped.

John [00:26:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:40]: Right. That doesn't feel too good. Right. Like. And he. And then he's like, yeah, you're right.

John [00:26:45]: Like the flowers.

Nicole [00:26:46]: Right. And he's like, yeah, I shouldn't do that. Like, if they're discouraging him from that.

John [00:26:50]: If he was like, you're centering your life around a woman.

Nicole [00:26:52]: Yeah.

John [00:26:52]: You need to de. Center woman. Women in your life.

Nicole [00:26:55]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John [00:26:57]: That would be hurtful. Yeah, I think. And two, as a woman. I' ma say this, I've said it before on some of our other episodes, but women get away with a lot more shit that men would never get.

Nicole [00:27:09]: Oh, for sure. Yeah.

John [00:27:09]: Like, yeah. If decenter women was like a hashtag or whatever. I mean, honestly.

Nicole [00:27:17]: Well, we'll talk about kind of the equivalent in the next episode. But it's not, it's still not the same like, and it's a small subset of like.

John [00:27:25]: I mean it is kind of. We are both as a society with men and women heading in this.

Nicole [00:27:31]: Yeah.

John [00:27:32]: Like splitting rather than coming together and making things better.

Nicole [00:27:37]: Yeah.

John [00:27:38]: For men and women. But like it would not be tolerated or accepted as much as women doing it. And they think that it's empowering.

Nicole [00:27:47]: Right.

John [00:27:47]: But again, like most heterosexual women want to get married.

Nicole [00:27:52]: Right.

John [00:27:53]: And potentially start a family. Like those are goals for most heterosexual women.

Nicole [00:28:00]: Right, exactly.

John [00:28:01]: And even like not heterosexual women. There's plenty of women that are with other women that want to have a family and things like that too. But I'm. We're talking about the decentering men, so that's why we're focusing on that. But so like trying to convince women to like stop focusing on men, like again, I get like trying to guide someone to focus more on themselves and invest more in themselves and their well being all around is the right thing. But to completely like cut men out of your life when that's the person you're pursuing.

Nicole [00:28:37]: Right.

John [00:28:37]: And that's how you want to spend the rest of your life. Makes actually zero sense.

Nicole [00:28:42]: It's giving the mgtow. It is, right?

John [00:28:45]: Like it's giving. How are you gonna ever get what you want?

Nicole [00:28:49]: Right.

John [00:28:50]: When you hate that thing.

Nicole [00:28:51]: Yeah.

John [00:28:51]: Or when you're talking that thing or when you're down talking this thing.

Nicole [00:28:56]: I mean, think about it too, right? It's like, okay, if you're a woman and you're like, yeah, I would like to meet the man of my dream someday. Most men are not that. And they're not, they're not men that I would want to be with. And I don't like them even like there's, I can, I can even get on board with that. The, the pickings are slim. But then you do meet this man, that is the man, a good man, the man of your dreams, and then he goes to your TikTok account and you're like decenter men and you're talking to bad about men and how men suck. And like, you know, I've never met a man more that could do more things than a woman. And like all the whole thing about the. And then you've ruined that. Or do you want that person to even see that? Like, would that be embarrassing to you? You see, what I'm saying is like those kind of thoughts, just that kind of. I mean, I mean just if we even just take this to just a even more basic level, just being like that in general about anyone or anything is just immature. It's not coming from a place of love. No, it's not coming from, you know, it's not what you're supposed to be doing. You know, that's not the kind of person that you should be or that you want to be. That's not an attractive person. That's not a good energy. Yeah, right. Like, good energy is like, because you're like, oh, no, this is a good thing. Sure. The good thing part of it is to be like, hey, instead of focusing on all this other stuff in your life and other people and you're dating and what, what, what men are thinking all the time and worrying about all that stuff, focus on like, like, how can you make your life better yourself? What are the things you enjoy doing? How can you live a good life with or without a man? And if the right man comes along, the. Then you'll have a better life, and if he doesn't, you'll still have a great one. And like, that's the energy. That's the positive energy.

John [00:30:47]: Center yourself. Don't decenter men center yourself.

Nicole [00:30:50]: Exactly. And I think that people get caught up in the debate. Right. Because we see it on both sides. Right. Obviously we have been. I mean, people hate us for whichever side we take whenever we empathize with one side, but we've been on both sides. Exactly. But we've seen it. Yeah, but we've seen it. And I can tell you with absolute certainty that the messages that come from a place that is not love, of higher spiritual consciousness, regardless of which side you think that you're on, you're still wrong, because that should be the guiding light. You should be looking at, like, what is the tone of the message? What is this conveying? Is this conveying a message of love,

John [00:31:33]: of compassion, putting out into the world of empathy.

Nicole [00:31:37]: Exactly. Or is it a negative one? It doesn't matter what your argument is, because you can make a very valid argument, but then the way the message is being put out and the energy behind it ruins the entire thing. And you could have one person that is on the completely opposite side of the argument, but their energy is good energy. And I think I'd rather listen to that person. I think I'd rather live their life.

John [00:32:01]: That's true.

Nicole [00:32:01]: You know what I'm saying? Regardless of what they're saying.

John [00:32:03]: Well, and I can see, I guess, both sides, but again, we're talking about the women's side here I can see where this like decentering men thing came from. Even like, you know, I'm going to empathize with these people because if you haven't met a good man and you haven't found a good man.

Nicole [00:32:24]: Yeah.

John [00:32:25]: You do probably think that all men suck.

Nicole [00:32:27]: Right? Yeah.

John [00:32:28]: You know what I mean? Like, I get their side at some point. I don't feel like I was too far on this side, but I was on the side. That's why like what you're saying is like we've been on the, in some ways anti the other gender.

Nicole [00:32:43]: Yeah.

John [00:32:43]: In some ways.

Nicole [00:32:44]: Yeah.

John [00:32:45]: Like more than we are now for sure. And more than we probably would have liked to admit. Right. So I can understand it because I can understand feeling hopeless, which I'm sure guys do too. But unfortunately the like decentering men and the like, all women suck. All men suck. All these things.

Nicole [00:33:06]: Right.

John [00:33:07]: Just further push us away from each other, further make us hopeless, which further drives our dislike or hatred for the other people.

Nicole [00:33:17]: Right.

John [00:33:18]: Because we've, because we haven't seen anybody in our dating experiences give us what we are looking for.

Nicole [00:33:27]: Right.

John [00:33:28]: So we just assume it's not out there. We assume that majority of men or women suck.

Nicole [00:33:34]: Right.

John [00:33:34]: And so then we go on our, we speak our. What we think is our truth. But then like you said. But then someone might cross your path.

Nicole [00:33:42]: Yeah.

John [00:33:42]: And then hopefully you haven't slandered their gender too bad on the Internet or whatever where they can still see it.

Nicole [00:33:51]: Yeah.

John [00:33:51]: Because that can affect your future relationships. Like you think it's fine because you think it's your truth in that moment.

Nicole [00:33:59]: Right.

John [00:33:59]: And I understand that. And that is your experience in the moment. However, if, even if you're having a bad time dating and you haven't found the right guy, if your goal is to be married to someone that you deeply love and start a family or whatever, or just be married.

Nicole [00:34:16]: Yeah.

John [00:34:17]: And happy in love with your. The man of your dreams. If your hatred or your upset for the experiences you have outweigh that desire.

Nicole [00:34:30]: Yeah.

John [00:34:31]: You will never, you will never find the person for you because your hatred will just grow.

Nicole [00:34:36]: Right.

John [00:34:37]: And so you have to believe that you can find the person. And that belief that you can find the man of your dreams is believing in men.

Nicole [00:34:46]: Right, Exactly.

John [00:34:47]: Believing that men have the, the capability to be the type of man that you're looking for. And sure, it might be really hard to find. I'm not saying that's going to be easy. Like I do think, you know, not to be Negative. I think that it is really hard as a woman to find a really good caliber man these days. It's not impossible because men have the potential to step up and do what they need to do, right? So I don't think it's like doomed.

Nicole [00:35:18]: Yeah, but look, if you're, let's say you're putting together a puzzle, right? And you're looking for, you're missing one missing border piece, right? And you had a pile of puzzle pieces and you're like, I'm going to look for what's not it. This one's not it. This one's not it. This one's not it. Right? As opposed. Like, like I'm talking about like a pile of pieces that you're looking for the last piece, right?

John [00:35:45]: So you're doing the edges first, right?

Nicole [00:35:48]: Edges first. And there's one edge piece missing and you got a pile of the pieces and you're like, okay, let me find the edge piece. So your plan for finding the edge piece is to focus on what's not it, to look for the ones that are not it. How successful will you be versus if you look for the one that is it? What I'm saying is it's your focus, right? So if you are have a negative view of men, let's say you're more likely to just like when we go to Tony Robbins and he's like, okay, you know, like, think about the color brown. And now you see everything is brown. The carpet's brown, all these brown. So it's this reticular activation system, right? It's like what you're focusing on is what you're going to attract in your life. So if you keep on saying men suck, men are bad, men are bad. Guess what kind of men you're going to find. That's the ones you're going to see because you're primed your system to find those men.

John [00:36:45]: Or you're going to meet good men and just assume.

Nicole [00:36:47]: Assume exactly. You're going to find the bad qualities because that's what you're looking for. But if you're looking for the good, if you're looking for the good qualities, and this just applies in general to people. If you look for the good qualities in people, you'll find them. If you look for the bad qualities in people, you'll find them. There's both exist, but you'll find more of what you're looking for. If you look at the puzzle box and you're looking through all the pieces and you're looking for Pieces that are not the piece you're looking for. You'll find plenty of those that are

John [00:37:15]: looking for hard edges.

Nicole [00:37:17]: Right. Look for the one that you're looking for. Like, put your focus on the thing that you're looking for. No, that's really where your words are, where your thoughts are. That's where your focus is. And so that's why it's like, you might think, oh, it's innocent. I'm just making a TikTok about decentering men. Yeah, but you're. You're actually making a focus on the negative. On the negative aspects. You're actually centering negative men.

John [00:37:38]: Right, that's true.

Nicole [00:37:39]: And you should be like, I'm going to center good men in my life or whatever it is, you know, like, make your focus on what you're looking to attract.

John [00:37:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:48]: And then, then, then you're much more likely to attract that.

John [00:37:50]: No, that's true. And at first, when you said it, like, don't focus on the things you don't like, I was going to disagree with you, but I think if you go on a date, right, and there's some things that you didn't like, and you're like, oh, well, I, you know, I don't really want a partner that yells at the waiter or something.

Nicole [00:38:08]: Sure.

John [00:38:08]: Like, you can still have that thought, but like you said, switch it to something positive. Like, I'm looking for a man that's nice to the waiter. Instead of, like, thinking, I'm looking for someone that's rude to the waiter, think of someone that is nice to the waiter. And, like, take whatever negative and make it positive. And like you said, look for that. Instead of, I don't want this, this, this, or this or this or this or this or, you know, or he might do this. So I don't want that, you know,

Nicole [00:38:35]: otherwise you're going to manifest that you don't want to manifest the bad stuff. You want to manifest the good stuff.

John [00:38:39]: That's very true.

Nicole [00:38:40]: Yeah.

John [00:38:41]: But, yeah, the de. Centering men, like I said, I feel like that is just often kind of like a jab at somebody. Not really necessarily, like, good advice. Again, I think you can give better advice to a woman that you feel like is maybe centering her life around men. And I think, like, another thing that we definitely need to mention before the end of this episode is I do also think that a lot of times when people say decenter men, they're talking about stop chasing male validation, for sure.

Nicole [00:39:12]: Which is.

John [00:39:13]: And again, that's like, like, why do you want A boob job. Is it because men like big boobs? Is it because like your boobs are not the same size and you want them to be more even or you've had a bunch of kids and, or you had a mastectomy? You know, like, yeah, there's so many different reasons. Or like you'll feel more confident, which like again, like, I kind of believe that one, but I kind of don't because I feel like typically it's like, okay, well why would it make you feel more confident? And sometimes it still leads into like, I'll look more sexy or something. Which like, yeah, being sexy is not male centered or like, you know, focused on men. But there is a fine line actually. Like there is a fine line with sexy that is right for male validation or focus.

Nicole [00:40:06]: Right?

John [00:40:07]: And there is for just wanting to feel good in your body and your skin.

Nicole [00:40:10]: Well, and, and it's not even, it doesn't even have to be just those two camps, Right. It can be because I deal with this with guys all the time. You can do something for validation to attract, let's say a man, but you could also do it because you want to be more attractive to men. And I know it sounds like the same thing, but it's not the same thing because one of them comes from insecurity and one of them comes from a logical choice that you're making. Just like, okay, when I go out, if I was a single guy, it would be silly, silly for me to go out somewhere and not comb my hair at all and just wear whatever clothes that I find. Right. Like you could say, well, I just don't care about the validation of women. Yeah. But I'm also not being smart because I know that I would like to be attractive to women if I'm a single guy. Okay. So you see what I'm saying? But it would be a lie if I'm like, oh, I'm just doing this. I'm just looking good for myself. You can do that. But you can also do that with the mind of, okay, these are things that will improve my attractiveness which will give me better selection in, in, in, in mate, you know, in partners, I don't, I, you know, I want to attract my ideal partner without being so far on the side that you're like, I'm doing this for attention, for validation because my self confidence is low because I need the attention from someone else to validate my self esteem. Right. So I think that's where. Because people tend to fall onto one of those. They're like, oh, no, I'm just doing it for myself. And they're like, okay, that reeks of low self confidence because you're not really. You're not spending hours in the gym just for yourself. You're not doing that. You're not doing all your makeup for all the time just for yourself. It's not true. Like, you don't have to be doing it just because you're desperate for validation. There's a happy in between.

John [00:42:04]: I think it's doing it for confidence. Is the happy in between. Because it's like, I think you should pick what you want to wear because you feel good in it, but not because, like, you want to wear something so that your whole body's showing so that men think you're naked. You know what I mean? Like, like a cute outfit, right? That, like, you feel like, complements you and your body.

Nicole [00:42:27]: Right?

John [00:42:27]: But you're also not like, showing everything already just to get that, like, easy attention from men.

Nicole [00:42:35]: Right?

John [00:42:35]: You know what I mean? Like, it's. I do think, like, the middle is confidence, right? Like, sure, you can put on a ton of makeup and, like, yeah, it's probably not fully just for you, but also you could put on just enough that makes you feel a little bit more put together.

Nicole [00:42:49]: Right, Exactly.

John [00:42:50]: And. But it's still not, like, doesn't look like you when you take off the makeup. You know what I mean? Like, that's what I think the balance is. Is that, like, enhancing but not altering to, like, a level where it feels inauthentic? Does that make sense? Because, like, I guess, like, going back to the boob job thing.

Nicole [00:43:10]: Yeah, that's where it starts to become,

John [00:43:13]: like, It's a sticky situation. Right? Because I can see, like, okay, if you're like, an A and, like, it doesn't proportionally fit your body and you get, like, a modest one, you don't go from, like, A to, like, double triple Ds.

Nicole [00:43:28]: Right.

John [00:43:29]: Okay. That's like. Does seem like you just want to, like, have more curves that feel a little bit more natural to you and

Nicole [00:43:37]: will make you more attractive potentially. Like, that is a. Is a calculation that you might make now, right? I would disagree with the calculation because I would say it would make you less attractive, but that's my personal taste. But.

John [00:43:49]: But I mean, then you also see, like, the boobs that are so big that. And, like, unnatural looking that you're like, yeah, this is for aesthetic.

Nicole [00:43:57]: Definitely a cry for attention.

John [00:43:59]: Male attention.

Nicole [00:44:00]: Exactly.

John [00:44:00]: For sure, you know?

Nicole [00:44:01]: Right.

John [00:44:01]: Because even, like, dealing with those things has to be a hassle as a woman, like.

Nicole [00:44:05]: Yeah.

John [00:44:06]: So, you know, at that point, like, there is a. There's a fine line.

Nicole [00:44:10]: Yeah. I think. I think one way to think of it too, that is good. Which kind of fits all the cases, is I want to look good for my future partner.

John [00:44:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:18]: I feel like that's okay. So it's like, even if you don't have one now, you can be like, okay, well, my future partner could be out there and I want to look good for them. That's not giving attention and valuation chasing.

John [00:44:29]: I want to feel good and look good.

Nicole [00:44:31]: Right.

John [00:44:32]: But also like. Like feel that my partner feels the same way.

Nicole [00:44:37]: Exactly, exactly.

John [00:44:38]: You know what I mean? But it. Because it still does have to be from. You want to feel good and look good.

Nicole [00:44:42]: Yeah.

John [00:44:42]: Because even if it's like, I just want to look good for my partner.

Nicole [00:44:46]: Yeah.

John [00:44:46]: Then you might also put unnecessary pressure on yourself.

Nicole [00:44:50]: Exactly.

John [00:44:50]: It's too much to look a certain way. And then also, too, it's like, what if your partner, I don't know, likes a little bit more meat on your bones, but you want to be, like, toned and whatever. You know what I mean?

Nicole [00:45:01]: Like, some of it's your identity. Right. Like, it has to be based on your identity. But I think we've gotten far off of the.

John [00:45:07]: Well, I mean, it still kind of goes because it is. Again, this is talking about, like, aesthetically.

Nicole [00:45:12]: Yeah.

John [00:45:13]: Trying to please men and get male validation. That's what we were talking about. And it does still go along with that. It's like, what are. Are you doing things because you want to do it, because it makes you feel confident or because you want validation?

Nicole [00:45:25]: Right.

John [00:45:25]: And even, like I said, with wearing, like, super revealing things, like whether people want to admit it or not.

Nicole [00:45:33]: Yeah.

John [00:45:33]: It's a very easy way for women to get male validation.

Nicole [00:45:37]: Yeah.

John [00:45:38]: Like, the less clothes you wear.

Nicole [00:45:39]: Right.

John [00:45:40]: The more easier you'll get going to be to get male validation or male attention.

Nicole [00:45:45]: Right.

John [00:45:46]: And so I'm not saying that you can never do that. I don't recommend it because then it just makes things messy.

Nicole [00:45:51]: Right.

John [00:45:53]: But you have to understand that you can't hide behind, like, I just want to be naked. If you want to be naked, be naked in your house. Walk around your house naked. That's fine. Like, that's fine with wanting to be naked.

Nicole [00:46:04]: Right.

John [00:46:05]: But. But that's like going out and like exposing everyone to your nakedness, essentially.

Nicole [00:46:11]: Yeah.

John [00:46:11]: Like, you have to really think about what. Where's this coming?

Nicole [00:46:15]: And then. And then cry. Don't sexualize me.

John [00:46:18]: Well, don't make it sexual. We won't get into all of that.

Nicole [00:46:21]: I'm just saying, like, if you do that and then you're like, why are people staring at me? Why can't you? You know, especially. It happens in the gym, right? Women complain about men oogling them in the gym. And then you're like, but what, but why did you wear almost nothing to the gym? Like, you could have just worn your own.

John [00:46:39]: You could wore that at your house.

Nicole [00:46:40]: Yeah.

John [00:46:40]: And it'd be fine. Or you could put a T shirt on and some leggings. That's true.

Nicole [00:46:46]: So. But. No, but it is true. It is true. What you're saying is that you, you shouldn't be doing this stuff for the validation. Like that, that is, that is like a healthy, if we're going to say a healthy way of decentering men. It's just like, you know, it should be rooted in your identity, really. It's like the things that you're doing, like, this is how you want to see yourself.

John [00:47:04]: And you don't have to have nothing because like you said, like, I want to look nice for you. I don't think that's a bad thing. And like, if you have a partner, right? Or like you said, you're like going out, going on a date. I don't think it's bad to be like, I want to look confident and be calm, feel confident, and hopefully he thinks I look cute. Or like, I want John to like this outfit or whatever. So, like, again, I think that people that try to, like, villainize it, like, don't ever do anything for a man's approval. Or like, for a man, like, that's just too extreme.

Nicole [00:47:36]: Let me give you an example. Actually, this is a good analogy. Suppose you're a writer, okay? And you're writing a book, okay? You're not just going to write whatever comes to your mind, like, just random stuff. You're probably going to try to write to make a good book, right? But you could be a hack. You could write whatever you think that people will read and not what you're actually interested in writing because you want to sell the book and you don't care what's in the book. You just care that people like what's in the book. Or you can write something that you like that you also know people will like, but because you like it, right? And that's fine. And that's the same thing. It's like, you can go to the gym, whatever. We could say boob Job, whatever. I feel like you're probably doing that more. But let's say go to the gym or bbl. Okay, let's say going to the gym. Let's say go to the gym or putting on makeup. Right. You could do that. Or the clothing that you choose. Let's say the clothing you choose, maybe that's an easier one. You could wear the clothing that you're choosing. Right. Because you know it's going to get attention and it's not necessarily even what you like. Like, your boobs are hanging out, your butt's hanging out, it's uncomfortable, whatever, but you're gonna get a ton of attention for it. Okay. Or you could wear clothing that you like that you know looks good, that you feel good, and that you know that other people will think you look good.

John [00:48:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:58]: And that's fine.

John [00:48:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:59]: Then you're doing. You're the writer that's writing the novel. That's a good novel. You wouldn't, as a writer be like, I can't write a novel that someone would like because then I'm writing it for other people. Like. No, you write it for you. Something that you want, that you also know that people will like, but not just because people will like it. Yeah, the same thing. Wearing clothes, whatever. Going to the gym. Boom.

John [00:49:19]: Yeah. And I think even if you want to tell your friend, like, you need to decenter men, because you do feel like they're leaning more towards just wanting male validation, there's again, a better way to phrase all this stuff. And it's better to be direct because let's be honest, saying, like, you need to decenter men from your life. What do you even mean?

Nicole [00:49:38]: Right. Yeah, you gotta, like, then they have to look it up on tick tock.

John [00:49:41]: Right. But even that, it's like.

Nicole [00:49:42]: Yeah.

John [00:49:43]: It's so many different aspects, obviously, like you talked about. Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:47]: Say what you actually mean.

John [00:49:48]: Right? Like, what's actually the problem?

Nicole [00:49:50]: You're making men. You're making the attention of men too much of a priority in your life to the detriment of other things in your life.

John [00:49:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:57]: There you go.

John [00:49:58]: And that's very clear.

Nicole [00:49:59]: That's it. Then you're done.

John [00:50:01]: Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:50:03]: But if you're saying those other words, you're saying it for a loaded. It's a loaded word for a reason. Because you want to Trojan horse all

John [00:50:09]: this other shit, Right? You want to, like, kick all the men off the earth.

Nicole [00:50:13]: Exactly.

John [00:50:13]: That's basically what you're acting like when you say decenter men. Because you're not giving a specific. Like you said, like, you need to specifically tell the person what problem you have. And that's even if they think that they have a problem. Because again, if someone came to me and was like, you need to decenter men from your life, I'd be like, no, like, yeah, first I like my husband, one man. And yeah, I'm going to continue to like him and he is going to be the like, son of my solar system. So sorry, but. And I think that women have gotten a little bit better at standing up for what I just said because I do see many, you know, videos of men and women actually being like, why do you people not like your spouses or your boyfriend or like, why are you with someone you don't like?

Nicole [00:51:00]: Right.

John [00:51:01]: Like, why are you with someone that you're afraid to be like, no, I do center my life around this person. Yeah, that's how it should be.

Nicole [00:51:07]: Yeah.

John [00:51:08]: Oh, again, like, if your friend is centering their life around male approval or whatever and you're concerned or they're like giving everything away and they're not like pouring into their own cup, say that specifically. Like, say what the actual problem is. Don't say decenter men.

Nicole [00:51:27]: Right.

John [00:51:28]: Because that's not the actual problem. Just like women wouldn't like it if men were like, decenter women. Decenter women.

Nicole [00:51:34]: Right.

John [00:51:35]: Women would not have the relationship with men that they would want. So why are we expecting men to be okay with like at all women or not all women, but women going around being like, decenter men? Like, no.

Nicole [00:51:48]: And then some men are just like,

John [00:51:52]: they let it happen.

Nicole [00:51:53]: Pussies. I was going to say they let it happen because they, because they're just like.

John [00:51:57]: Well, because they don't want to upset the woman.

Nicole [00:51:59]: Yeah. Because they're so afraid of women. So afraid of. They're so approval seeking. They're not really men. They're not really men. So they go along with it.

John [00:52:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:08]: And the reason why, here's the actual reason why women can get away with this and men can't get away with it because you said it's like a kind of a double standard. Right. If men were doing it's because men, unfortunately, because John said it, not because if men were saying that women, women in relationships with men would be like, hell no. What the fuck? They would be pissed off. Right. They would not just quietly. Aside from maybe there's one person we know that's a little bit of a psychopath and his wife would go along with the thing. I think, you know, who I'm talking about his initials. Start. His first initial starts with A, and his second initial starts with J. Oh, okay. Okay.

John [00:52:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:53]: So. So. So women would not. Women in relationships would be like, I guess you're sleeping on the couch, then I guess we're gonna de center you, then, like, we're out of here.

John [00:53:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:05]: But men will go along with it because they're cowards. Not all men, obviously, because they're nice guys, because they're cowards, because they don't have any balls. Right. And they're in. In there and they're seeking that approval. And so they. They allow it to propagate because it would not propagate if men had the same problem with it that women would.

John [00:53:26]: That's true.

Nicole [00:53:28]: Not. Not to, like, let women off the hook of. Of doing this kind of. They're not off the hook, but at the same time, also, men stop being a pussy. Stand up and, like, don't allow a woman to just Something walk all over you like that. Yeah. Stand up. Be the force. Or what is it?

John [00:53:46]: No, I was singing the ludicrous stand up. Okay. Without going too far.

Nicole [00:53:50]: Yeah, but.

John [00:53:51]: No, you're right.

Nicole [00:53:52]: Yeah.

John [00:53:53]: So I think we covered this one pretty well.

Nicole [00:53:55]: All right, let's see. For this week, what do we have? We have. I think we have nothing. Like, I mean, for us.

John [00:54:02]: Yeah, I know. I thought you were gonna say we had something.

Nicole [00:54:04]: Yeah, we don't have it. I don't know. Like, we're just stressed out. That's it.

John [00:54:08]: Just very stressed out.

Nicole [00:54:10]: Just stuff.

John [00:54:10]: Just. I think, too. We talked about one thing, but it was not like a problem. But you were like, we can talk to each other finally or something.

Nicole [00:54:19]: Whoa. Oh. Oh. I was saying. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. I don't remember what it was. We said something or maybe you brought up some issue or I brought something up, and we just smoothly just talked about it. It's. It's so, like, no one got upset.

John [00:54:37]: I think you were upset about something. And I said, I'm sorry. I didn't want you to feel that way or something, like, more detailed than that, but.

Nicole [00:54:43]: Oh, I don't even remember you feeling upset. Yeah, I don't know. I don't. I have no idea.

John [00:54:48]: I just feel like I remembered saying that I'm sorry and I didn't want you to feel that way.

Nicole [00:54:54]: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

John [00:54:57]: We don't even. That's, like, the least of our worries right now.

Nicole [00:55:02]: Lots of stressful things going on, but. But we've been sick I mean, I feel like a lot of the lessons that we've learned have.

John [00:55:10]: Have We've been applying.

Nicole [00:55:12]: That we've been applying, which is the key. Yeah. Yeah.

John [00:55:15]: And if you want to be like us, watch all of our episodes.

Nicole [00:55:17]: That's right. Yeah. And go through. Yeah. Then you don't have to go through all the. That we went through. True to.

John [00:55:23]: And you can hear all of our stuff we go through and air out on here when we have it.

Nicole [00:55:28]: Yeah. I'm just trying to think, like.

John [00:55:29]: But I'm hoping we don't have it.

Nicole [00:55:31]: What shifted more for me, it's just like. I don't know.

John [00:55:37]: I think for me, it's been not taking things personally.

Nicole [00:55:41]: Yeah.

John [00:55:41]: Like, that's. I mean, I still do sometimes. I'm not perfect by any means, but not like taking when you're upset with something as, like, I'm bad or like, you hate me now or like, I don't know. Or you're gonna, like, treat me differently or something.

Nicole [00:55:57]: Yeah.

John [00:55:58]: Because you're upset.

Nicole [00:55:58]: I think. I think mine has been kind of similar, but more just like, curiosity is like, trying to understand where you're coming from instead of judging where you're coming from. Right. Like, okay, let me understand it. And it's like, even if it's like, it's your experience. Right. It doesn't. Well, it helped a lot that the one thing I forgot, like, a long time ago when we had the. The argument, and. And I was realizing that, like, I was making things, like, personal. Well, yeah, I guess personal to me, like, in the sense that, like.

John [00:56:31]: Oh, like the toto when she was in the hospital argument.

Nicole [00:56:34]: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

John [00:56:35]: Because it's like, I do feel like something clicked in.

Nicole [00:56:38]: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that was a big. A big click for me because then I realized that, you know, you can. It's like I. I'm the one who knows what my thoughts are, is proud of me the most. And like, you know, and. And like, I don't need you to necessarily even understand those things all the time. Right. It's nice when you do. But. But to. The need to. To. To feel understood all the time causes a lot of arguments, you know, and. And the. The least that you try to do that. And the more that you try to understand someone else, the more you are understood.

John [00:57:13]: True.

Nicole [00:57:14]: So true. There you go. All right, well, that's it for this week. Go check us out@betterthanperfectpod.com if you got a question for us. You can email us at Better than perfect podcastmail.com and we'll see you next week.

John [00:57:27]: And we find no way.