John [00:00:00]: And I have a lot of friends that, you know, I came from the whole dating coaching, pickup culture type of world. And I have friends to this day that gone a lot of dates with women and no woman ever seems special to them. They're like, I haven't found the one yet. You shouldn't have to go on thousands of dates. But the reason why no woman is feeling special to you is because it's not just the woman. It's the effort that you've put into it. You're not putting in an investment, which. Which makes it not valuable to you.

Nicole [00:00:23]: Mostly men are upset about this because it makes them have to raise to a higher standard. It is treating women better beyond the perfect.

John [00:00:32]: We discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault.

Nicole [00:00:43]: We find our way.

John [00:00:46]: All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:55]: That's right.

John [00:00:56]: Yeah. And today we have some spicy. A debatable topic.

Nicole [00:01:02]: Yes.

John [00:01:04]: Basically, there's a 2026 Bumble report, I guess, showing that women are basically abandoning dating apps and they are doing it for Bridgerton. And what's the other show?

Nicole [00:01:18]: It's a movie. Wuthering Heights.

John [00:01:21]: Yeah, Wuthering Heights. And so kind of what's happening is that women are choosing fictional characters, storybook kind of characters, over real men or kind of setting their standards.

Nicole [00:01:35]: No, that's not true.

John [00:01:35]: Well, you're choosing their standards, but they're

Nicole [00:01:38]: not choosing to just, like, watch fictional movies or read books. They're going to matchmakers trying to do things in real life rather than on apps.

John [00:01:49]: They want to have the storybook romance

Nicole [00:01:51]: that is in those in real life. But the way you described it at first made it seem like they're giving up men altogether and they're just going to the.

John [00:01:59]: I think they're kind of saying, okay, I'd rather just have the stories if a real man, like, they're raising a standard, saying, I'm not going to accept anything less than this, so I'd rather just watch these shows or whatever.

Nicole [00:02:12]: Look for it in real life.

John [00:02:13]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:02:14]: Yeah.

John [00:02:14]: But if there's no guy, then I'm. I'm not. I'm not lowering the standard to. To what's on. What's out there on the. The bottom of the bumble barrel. Yeah, the bumble barrel.

Nicole [00:02:25]: Yeah.

John [00:02:26]: And I'm trash can.

Nicole [00:02:28]: That's Nicole proofed for me. That's my first reaction to this. I don't Think it's a bad thing. I think now living in a fantasy world.

John [00:02:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:43]: Is not a good thing for sure. But I think watching things like that or, you know, seeing men at a high standard and wanting that is not a bad thing. Like, right. That it's not fair to tell women that they can't have a high standard just because men live up to such a low standard.

John [00:03:05]: True, true.

Nicole [00:03:06]: Like, that is not fair to women. Like, and again, I'm not saying that it should be unrealistic. Like, you shouldn't be like, right, I have to have this rich man who is a man and who whisks me off my feet and who does yada. Like, that's not what it should be about.

John [00:03:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:25]: But I don't, I honestly don't even think that that is what, like Bridgerton or I, I mean, I've seen some seasons of Bridgerton.

John [00:03:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:35]: I've not seen the Weathering Heights movie.

John [00:03:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:39]: But so I can speak from Bridgerton. So when that first came out, people were talking about, they were like, make men yearn again. Like, these men are courting women. Right, Right, exactly.

John [00:03:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:55]: And so it's not what they're doing is not unrealistic. Like, yes, like, Bridgerton is based in, like, it's these wealthy families and they're in high class society. But women aren't like, take me to a ball and spend all this money on me.

John [00:04:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:11]: That's not what they're saying. They're saying, make men yearn again. Like, make men, like, express to a woman how much that he, like, is invested in her, right. So that she can feel desired. And a lot of it is hookup culture, right? Which is women yearning for a man to give her the time of day and him not wanting to settle down. And women are tired of that, right? Like, it doesn't get anybody what they really want. Like. And look, men might be like, I want to play the field, I want to whatever. But again, I've said it in other episodes. I think that everybody deep down wants a love. Men don't watch Bridgerton or romance movies and yearn like women do for those moments, but in some way they do yearn for a woman that loves and accepts them and appreciates them and respects them and looks up to them. That's the male version of this romance. They just don't watch things to get that dopamine from it, Right. Or to like fantasize over. Because they're visual, right. They're going straight to the. You know what?

John [00:05:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:26]: Because they're Visual.

John [00:05:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:28]: But women, we like to live in our heads. We like to be like, oh, I wonder what a love like that would feel like. I wonder what it would feel like for a man to like, court me, to like, show me. He want, like, to go back to the olden days.

John [00:05:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:42]: Where he like, initiates and he plans things and he, he, he also wants to take it slow, like, because you want to build this thing together. It's not about just hooking up or whatever that society is today. So I think that's why women are kind of going back to that and doing more, like, in person, because they can kind of control the narrative a little bit more. Whereas, like, with dating apps in general, I feel like has kind of been linked to, to hookup culture, no matter what app you're using at this point. And not because women use them for that. I'm not saying that. No women do.

John [00:06:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:23]: But because men do.

John [00:06:24]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:06:24]: And because men aren't putting in the effort even on the dating apps.

John [00:06:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:28]: Or they're lying on the dating apps or whatever it is. Whereas, like, in person, that's less likely to happen. I'm not saying that men can't lie in person, but.

John [00:06:38]: No, but it's. You're.

Nicole [00:06:39]: Yeah. You're gonna get a better feel. Feel for the actual situation.

John [00:06:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:44]: In person. And then hopefully he will try to actually take you on dates and not just meet you for the first time and be like, do you want to go to my place?

John [00:06:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:52]: You know what I mean?

John [00:06:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:54]: So I don't think it's a bad thing. Honestly.

John [00:06:57]: I think it's good. Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:58]: I kind of did this myself before even the Bridgerton thing. Like, I loved like rom com movies. I loved all the stuff. I was not one to like fantasize like enemies to lovers. Like I feel like some people nowadays do with like the books and like certain shows. Cause I think that's a little bit like I don't want to hate instantly hate the person. Like, I don't want to hate the person that I end up loving. Like, I'm not saying that sometimes that doesn't happen naturally where you're like a little like, oh, I don't know about you. And then like you get to know the person better and then it blossoms.

John [00:07:31]: But yeah, it just makes a good story. But yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:07:33]: But I've always liked, loved love.

John [00:07:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:36]: And like a good love story.

John [00:07:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:39]: And I do feel like that made my standards high. And I feel like a lot of people in my life, including my Friends and family tried to get me to lower those.

John [00:07:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:50]: And I didn't.

John [00:07:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:53]: And that's how I ended up with you, which is better. Like, it's better than all of the romance stories that someone could write or come up with. But I think it's because I did have those standards.

John [00:08:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:09]: And I also, I'm not saying this that, like, I didn't do anything. Like, I didn't add to the love story. Like, I'm not like, expecting a man to come along and make the love story. Like, I valued love, so I knew that I would pour love into the person that I wanted to be with, which would make it even more of this, like, love story that people fantasize about.

John [00:08:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:32]: Does that make sense?

John [00:08:33]: Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. And I agree. And I think that, I mean, if you look at a woman's experience on dating apps, it probably. It makes sense, right? Because if a woman goes on a dating app, the desirable guys that are on there. Right? Which is not gonna be a lot. And also just because if you see

Nicole [00:08:54]: the profile, as we met on a dating app.

John [00:08:56]: Well, but, yeah, but like, I mean, you know, like guys profiles on dating apps, even if the guy might have been a, a decent guy, don't know how to put the correct pictures on there. Like, you know, it's like, what the heck is this? Right? So the, the few desirable guys that actually are good looking and have good profiles are all the women are wanting those guys. They're in high demand. So then those guys, what are they doing? They're saying, well, I mean, I don't have to invest. I can just hook up with this woman. And if a woman doesn't look like she's going to hook up with me, I can just move on to the next one. And so naturally women would get fed up with that because that's not what they're looking for. Right. For women, getting sex is not a difficult thing. Right? So it's not highly prized. That's not what they're after. They're after the romance, the love story. They want to actually be courted and desired in more than just a physical way. Right. So, yeah, so it makes sense, right? So that's, you know, if that's their experience, and that is only magnified over time. As, you know, basically there's more guys on dating apps than women. And those few guys that women are interested in are the guys that have the options. And so they're acting that way. And so it makes sense that it's not a great place For a woman looking for something more. Unless she's willing to go with a guy that. But even a guy that's maybe substandard. I'm sure that some women are like, well, maybe I won't pick the most attractive guy on this dating app. And then she goes on date with him and realizes that he's also just looking to score because he's still a guy. Right. So. So I can imagine the matchmaking would make a lot of sense. Or going to kind of social events where it takes a little bit more effort and she can kind of see the guy. Because I think a lot of women are probably going on dates and it's like another one, another one, another one. And they're just crossing all these guys off the list and they're like, I'm just sick of going on dates. And every single time it disappoints me because the guy is either some kind of jackass or he's just looking for the one thing every single time. You know, so. And then when dating apps first came out, it wasn't. There wasn't that exhaustion of this. You know, there were some different people. Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:19]: Like people weren't. They didn't go straight to catfishing people. Like people put their actual stuff. The picture thing wasn't that big. You didn't have to think really about your pictures.

John [00:11:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:29]: Like it was more real. It's kind of like love is blind. Right. Right in the beginning, the first step, like the first season, really it was real.

John [00:11:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:38]: Same with the dating apps. Like at first it was real cuz no one knew what to do. This was brand new. So you just wrote about yourself, I'm Nicole, I have a dog. And you know, it was probably a lot like that. And then you just put random pictures and then people actually met each other. And it. You didn't run into a lot of the issues that you run into today. Like Tinder. I was around when Tinder first came out. It was not a hookup app.

John [00:12:03]: No.

Nicole [00:12:03]: It was actually a data. A dating app.

John [00:12:05]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:12:06]: And then as time went on and then people started using it for those reasons. Right. And they figured out that they could do it right. And get success. Then it turned into that and then they had to come up with more apps because now that one is turning into something else. And now we need one where women message men first. And now we need this one because the. It turned into something different. And like, yes. I mean we're proof that they do work. Like we met on a dating app. It's not like they don't work, but I can totally see where women don't want to deal with that anymore. Yeah. And I think that men are upset that they have to be held to this high standard, but at the same time, I don't think they realize that, like, if they courted a woman, like these shows, these romance movies stories, they would have way more success.

John [00:13:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:03]: With women. And it doesn't really matter, honestly, what you look like, what you do.

John [00:13:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:08]: Any of those things that you feel like, matter so much if you treated a woman properly.

John [00:13:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:15]: Because you, like, care about her and granted it. Not in the very beginning. Like, she can't give her everything. And you haven't met her. Even on, like, Bridgerton, they're, like, just giving someone a rose and like, hey, I want to. I want to court you. Like, that's how they start. They're not like, here's everything that I have. I love you so much. They're not saying that. They're just like, hey, I'm really interested in pursuing you.

John [00:13:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:39]: And they don't have a whole bouquet of flowers. They maybe have, like, one flower, right. So that she feels special and chosen, but he's not giving her too much.

John [00:13:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:49]: And so just wanted to clarify that because we've done plenty of episodes on that. But men don't realize that, like, that is what women want the most. Like, they want this love that feels like a love story, a worthy love story. And I'm not saying that you have to, like, I don't know, like, again, take her to a ball or whatever. But it's the yearning. It's the yearning for someone. It's the, like, once you guys are together, the, like, telling her how you feel, how, like, you've never felt this way about a woman before. And, you know, like, really showing that side of you, granted, at the right time, again, I'm saying at the appropriate time, Right. As it goes on. But that is what women really care about the most. They don't care about how you look, your. How much money you make. All of those things.

John [00:14:42]: Yeah. Those are secondary to.

Nicole [00:14:43]: Right. To the main thing you make her feel. How you make her feel feel is the most important.

John [00:14:48]: Well, I mean, even historically, right. If you look at Phantom of the Opera, right? Okay, the guy's got a disfigured face, right? He's a. But he's a love and beauty and the beast, right? Lord Byron, you know, the poet, like, known to be ugly, right. Casanova supposedly was. Had a big nose and was not the best looking guy, right. So like all of these stories of famous lovers, it was the obsession with the woman, it was the yearning, like you said, for the woman that made her feel special. Right? So to be, you know, if you listen to, if you, if you read about Casanova, like a woman, to be a target of Casanova's affection was just a thing like that. He, he is going after this woman like that was a special thing because he was known to be such a obsessed with one woman at a particular time, even though he wasn't with women for a long time. But it doesn't matter, it was still that yearning they still got that women were happy with that they're happy for him to even be temporarily in their life, just to have the opportunity to have that feeling that they've never had before in their lives, a romance. And that's really, again, even if you're a guy that is not looking for a long term committed relationship at this point in your life, giving a woman that feeling of actually being yearned for is valuable. That's going to make you a desirable man, just like you said. And I think it also kind of comes down to it's in a way good for you as well as the man. Because, you know, when I was growing up, I don't know if your dad would say the same thing, but I think it's something that came from the playbook of the parents also with the macaroni and cheese and applesauce and all the little things that they did. But was my dad would say, I'm not going to buy you a bike. You have to earn the money. Because if I just buy you a bike, you're not going to appreciate it. But if you earn the money and buy yourself a bike, then you'll appreciate the bike, right? I'm sure you've heard that before. Something that your parents have said to you, but it's the same thing here, is that if you just as a guy go out in a dating app and you just swipe and just hook up with a girl, you haven't actually had to do any effort, put any effort or work for it, then you're going to value that less, even if it's a good woman for you. And so it's sort of like the more that you invest into the thing and you've actually put work into the thing, then the reward is sweeter, right? And so it's like, yeah, as a guy also, yeah, maybe the sex becomes meaningless. Maybe hooking up with different women becomes meaningless because you're not putting any effort into it. And so. And I have a lot of friends that, you know, I came from the whole dating, coaching, pickup culture type of world. And I have friends to this day that go on a lot of dates with women. They're still single, and no woman ever seems special to them. They're like, I haven't found the one yet. And they've gone on thousands of dates. And so it's like, you shouldn't have to go on thousands of dates. But the reason why no woman is feeling special to you is because it's not just the woman. It's the effort that you've put into it. And if you're just constantly doing things on easy mode or you're not putting their low effort for you, then you're not putting in an investment, which. Which makes it not valuable to you.

Nicole [00:18:25]: Yeah. So you're right. And I think that mostly men, I would assume, are upset about this because it makes them have to raise to a higher standard, which, again, if they analyzed it like we're analyzing it, the only standard you really have to rise to is not having to look better, having to get a better job, having to get better clothes. I don't know. Whatever you want to think it is. Treating women better. Because obviously, with the certain pills and whatnot that are around, it's pretty safe to say that men are treating women less and less respectfully.

John [00:19:15]: Sure. Yeah. I agree.

Nicole [00:19:16]: Than they used to.

John [00:19:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:18]: And I know I've said this on another episode, but you cannot get what you don't respect or what you treat poorly.

John [00:19:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:26]: Like you cannot want to have a woman to love you.

John [00:19:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:29]: When you don't like women.

John [00:19:32]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:19:32]: Or you act like you don't like women, or you partake in behaviors that convey that you don't like women.

John [00:19:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:38]: That you think poorly of them, that you. Whatever. So I think that this is going to make men very upset, that women want this fantasy romance because now they have to be at a higher standard, like you said, especially the dating app guys that are like, well, I can just swipe and get whoever I want. Or like, the ones that can't get a date. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm already doing everything. But they're not doing it in the right way. They're being nice guys, not kind guys.

John [00:20:09]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:20:10]: And so instead of viewing this or maybe going to watch some of those things to see how those men act.

John [00:20:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:18]: And learn from those things, men should be watching these, I think.

John [00:20:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:23]: Because you can learn from them just like women are learning what they like.

John [00:20:26]: I said I always tell guys to read romance novels, understand? Because if women are obsessed with romance novels, like if you're trying to catch a fish, you should bait the hook to suit the fish. Right. You got to figure out what does the fish want. You can't just give it whatever you

Nicole [00:20:42]: want or something else.

John [00:20:44]: Yeah. So it's a similar thing here and I think the thing about it too is that it is sort of. It's not a double standard, but it's something else of a similar type of hypocrisy in the sense that a lot of men complain that women are too easy. Right. They're like, they will slut shame women. Okay, fine, I believe in chastity, I think that's good. However, then you get upset when women raise their standards and want to be courted. So you got to pick one, which one do you want? Do you want women to be easy? And so then you're just upset because they're being easy with the guys that aren't you, that aren't you? Or do you want women to be chaste? In which case they're going to raise the standard, they're going to demand that before they give it up that a man shows actual real interest in them, yearning for them, courts them. So you got to pick, which is it going to be? And I can tell you from having done dating, coaching from haven't been out there, you know, myself, is that you can, you can woo women by being a romancer.

Nicole [00:22:03]: Yeah.

John [00:22:04]: Even if it's short term.

Nicole [00:22:05]: And it works way better.

John [00:22:07]: It does work way better because you can try to pick up a woman by knocking down her self esteem. And this is where guys are afraid of the me too thing. Right. Because let me tell you, if you go to a bar or a club or something, you pick up a woman and the way that you pick her up is by knocking down her self esteem, which works. Right. For certain women. And then you sleep with her. That's where she has a regret the next morning. And maybe she does something unethical and accuses you of a crime which you didn't commit.

Nicole [00:22:44]: Essentially like by knocking her down to get what you want. That's manipulation.

John [00:22:50]: Right, right.

Nicole [00:22:51]: And that's why she feels weird the next morning. That's why she feels gross. Cuz she's like why did I sleep with someone that literally talked to me?

John [00:22:58]: Right. Whereas. Whereas I can tell you again, just from my own experience and from coaching guys, is that you can also Pick up a woman and even if you're not going to have any kind of relationship with her, she has this wonderful night where she feels like she's the most special woman in the world and you've treated her like royalty, like a princess. And you don't see her again. But she is like, that was an amazing time. Obviously she might want to have seen you again. But when you're upfront and you're honest about it and you are treating her in that way. Yeah. You end up in a situation where that woman is not going to say bad things about you later. She's going to be like, oh, that guy was amazing. I wish that I could actually see him again. But he had to go off to. He had to run away because he was a secret agent. But whatever. But I'm just saying it creates that sort of story, the fantasy.

Nicole [00:23:57]: There's not that regret.

John [00:23:58]: Magical experience. Exactly. Which you can leave every woman better than you found her. That's how you should be thinking as a man. Again, it doesn't mean you have to be looking for short term things. It doesn't mean that's the best way to live. But what I'm saying is that those things aren't mutually exclusive. What we're talking about here and what women want. It doesn't mean that they might not hook up with a guy on the first date if it's an amazing experience. And you know, I, you know, we've talked about it on the podcast that now we tell women don't do that.

Nicole [00:24:36]: Yeah.

John [00:24:37]: Like don't. Even if it is, you know, a magical experience, still make him invest more if you want to have him actually to invest and build a long term relationship. But, but I think it's just important to understand that is that as you know, because guys are going to complain that women are too easy and now they're complaining that they're raising their standards and, and you gotta, I mean, which do you want?

Nicole [00:24:59]: Yeah. So I mean at the same time too, look, as a woman that had done this before, that this was even a trend, like had really liked watching romance movies and seeing the stories and had these high standards because of these things and people are like that's not realistic or whatever. But didn't give up on that. I would have a thousand percent rather had stayed single.

John [00:25:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:26]: And had those standards.

John [00:25:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:28]: And even just getting the little hit of love from those stories.

John [00:25:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:33]: Would have been better than settling for a man. And so men need to listen to this and instead of getting butt hurt or being Like, I'm not doing that or whatever. Like, instead of being immature about it, they need to realize that the only thing really holding them back is their aversion to. This Is their aversion to romance. Is their aversion to showing the world that they care about a woman. Because so many men, too, even in relationships or are married, don't express ever to their partner or the world or both how much they care about their partner. And really, probably the only time they did was at their wedding. If they did it then.

John [00:26:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:20]: You know what I mean? And so. But that's what a woman wants. A woman wants a man to unapologetically show his love for her.

John [00:26:30]: Absolutely.

Nicole [00:26:30]: Like, not be worried, oh, are my boys going to know that I love this girl? Like, so many men are afraid, right?

John [00:26:37]: She doesn't want to be. Let other men see your dirty little secret. She doesn't want to be.

Nicole [00:26:42]: There's. Men are so afraid to have other men see them love a woman because so many men hate women these days, right? Whether they say it or not, the way they talk about women sure is hating women.

John [00:26:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:56]: Like, we were just talking with Rodrigo about some comments on a video where guys are like, yeah, look at her hair. She. Of course she would say that. Like, that is hating women.

John [00:27:05]: Well. And let me give you a secret, okay? And how to make a woman obsessed with you. Okay? So this is the secret. This is how if you. If you wanted to make a woman obsessed with you, and this is dangerous information I'm about to give out, because if you don't want to have a woman calling you and being obsessed with you, then you don't want to do this.

Nicole [00:27:29]: Okay? Okay, I'm ready.

John [00:27:30]: All right. The secret is this, is that you get a woman that you're dating to the point where she would have sex with you, and then you don't. And then you end the night, you slow burn it. You see what I'm saying? Because it's one thing to be just a nice guy, right? And because. But what I'm saying is that you, as a man, get a woman to. Or even just to kiss where she wants to kiss you. And you hold back, you take it slow, even tell her you're going to take it slow or whatever it is, but she's a willing participant. She wants to do this, but then you slow burn it.

Nicole [00:28:28]: Yeah. You know why that works?

John [00:28:31]: Yeah, but you tell me.

Nicole [00:28:32]: Because you're now proving that your actions and your words and your investment in her are not just to have sex. It's because you care about her.

John [00:28:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:45]: That's how you show that.

John [00:28:47]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:28:47]: Because women are so used to being manipulated by men, saying all these things just to get her home. And then you never hear from him ever again.

John [00:28:57]: Yeah. So if she's willing to give it up. If she's willing to. But then you're like, hold it. And you pump the brakes. It proves, just like you said beyond a shadow of a doubt, that your interest in her is more than just the physical, that you're still interested in her physically, but you have a deeper interest than that.

Nicole [00:29:15]: Right.

John [00:29:16]: And that's going to make her obsessed with you.

Nicole [00:29:18]: Yeah. Your romance story will start to blossom.

John [00:29:23]: But that's why, like, because a lot of guys date women and they're like, I mean, this is a weird thing. I had not experienced this, but a lot of my friends that I talk to now, they're like, yeah, I sleep with a woman and then she never calls me again, or she doesn't want to go out with me again. I'm like, okay, well, I mean, it's one of two things, right? Like, I mean, you either suck in that bed in the bedroom, right? Or. Or there's something else going on. What are you doing here? Right? So it's like, okay, if we assume that it's not the. You're just shitty at sex, then what's happening is that now you've, like, you haven't created that interest level, right? So the solution to their problem, if you're a guy that has this problem, which, again, this is a weird problem to have, but I guess it's common now, because a lot of guys are complaining about this, is that they'll go out with the woman, have sex with a woman, and then she doesn't want to see them again. But the solution to that problem is that you do what I said, get her to the point where she would have sex with you. Right. Where you know that, like. And then you pull back and you say, hold up. I want to take it slow. You know, I don't want to rush into this. Like, this is, you know, I think things are getting a little too hot and spicy. I need to get to bed. But I'd love to see you again. Right? Like, you know, to be continued. That's the story, right? Because. And the reason why also this works is because it creates the story. Women want the storybook romance and the storybook romance. I mean, very little sex marriage. Yeah, I've read some romance novels. I'm not like, you know, an expert in Romance novels, but I've read enough and I don't recall ever reading one. And maybe it's smut novels that have. But even then there's probably. But I don't recall reading any romance novel where in the first chapter they meet and they have sex and then the rest of it, right? It's usually from my experience, the big sex scene happens 3/4 of the way into the book, 75% through the book. That's where it happens. The buildup is all of that up to that. And so if you want to create this experience, then that's how you have to play it, where you're in control. Now, a lot of guys are like, oh, that happens all the time. Every time I go on a date with a woman, we never have sex. And I'm like, yeah, but that's because she's the one who's in control. And that's why you're not having sex, right? When you flip the dynamic and you're the one who is setting the pace, who's slowing things down. This is why also, when I coach guys and I tell them, texting a woman, right? Like, if she sex you, your response should never be to be to sext her back. Instead, it's like, whoa, ho, I'm.

Nicole [00:32:11]: I'm a gentleman.

John [00:32:12]: Yeah, yeah, I'm a. I'm a. I'm. I'm a. I'm a good boy. Like, that's not. Oh, wow. You know, I don't know about you. Like, you're going to play it down, right? So that she's the pursuer that she, you know, like, you're cooling it down. Like, if you're the one who's cooling it down, then that's going to create her to go more aggressive and to. To want you more. So you have to play that dynamic

Nicole [00:32:37]: because you'll cool it down, but you'll still be interested in her. Because I'm sure there are men listening to this and be like, if I cool it down, then she'll just ghost me and never talk to me again because I rejected her or whatever. No, like, you can cool the situation down, like you said, by saying something like, whoa, hold your horses there, lady. Little lady.

John [00:32:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:56]: Like, that is not shutting off the connection, right? That's not ruining the connection because you're still going to show interest in her. You're still going to be like, no, we got to go on some more dates before we get to all of that. You know, that's showing that you're still invested, right? And Then like you said, she will be more invested because women are used to men being like, all right, let's. Let's go back to my place or whatever.

John [00:33:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:22]: And women have always been torn between, do I give the man what he wants?

John [00:33:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:28]: So he'll give me what I want? Or I'm really like, this guy, but I. I don't want to sleep with him yet. But that might mess up the situation. Like, women are in the same position as men.

John [00:33:40]: Sure.

Nicole [00:33:40]: But it's better to err on the side of, you know what? The right person for me will wait. And men, I know that they have more sexual urges than women do.

John [00:33:53]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:54]: But men also need to realize that if they wait on their desires as well, too.

John [00:34:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:01]: Then they'll end up with a better relationship all around. Like, it's better to go slower, to ease into it.

John [00:34:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:09]: Than to be guns blazing. Like, hey, you want to get married tomorrow? You want to go back to my place? Like, that's. When does that ever work? I'm sure it works 1% of the time, but.

John [00:34:20]: Right. Well, even a stripper starts with the clothes on, right? That's true.

Nicole [00:34:25]: Yeah.

John [00:34:25]: Does it come out naked? Right.

Nicole [00:34:27]: Because then where would you go from there?

John [00:34:29]: Exactly. So you have to think about. It's just human psychology, right?

Nicole [00:34:33]: Yeah.

John [00:34:33]: It's like the girl takes the clothes off. That's why they're called a stripper. That's more appealing than just coming out naked, Right?

Nicole [00:34:42]: True.

John [00:34:43]: So it's the same thing here, is that you're creating some kind of buildup. You're getting the anticipation and. Hey. And all my secrets today, if you want to get good at sex, you don't need to know any kind of technique. You don't need to. I mean, you can learn techniques, but you don't need to know anything at all to be good at sex. As a guy, I'll tell you, promise you 100%.

Nicole [00:35:05]: There's going to be a lot of comments. That's a lie.

John [00:35:08]: All you have to know to be good at sex is to go slow, because the more anticipation you build, the easier it will be to get to the finish line. Right?

Nicole [00:35:21]: That's true.

John [00:35:22]: So to get her to the finish line, and the more she's gonna like that experience, she's gonna think you're some kind of wizard doing some kind of amazing stuff down there. But in reality, you're just teasing. You're just going slow and building anticipation, which causes. And it works for both sexes. But the idea is that it's the building of anticipation, Whether that be romance, whether that be sex, of anything. Even going out to a nice restaurant or a meal that you have, when you're hungry for that food, it tastes a lot better. So it's this idea of building anticipation. So I think this is overall a good thing. Women, obviously, we can talk to men and say, hey, this is how you should be playing things. If you want things to be really hot and you slow them down. But women also having these higher standards and wanting to be courted and wanting a man to yearn for them. The way that you do it is by not giving it up, by not by being.

Nicole [00:36:21]: By being a lady.

John [00:36:22]: By being a lady.

Nicole [00:36:23]: But that's the thing that women have to do as well, too, which hopefully goes along with this. Like, women also too, need to be realistic that you have to be a lady. You also have to slow it down. You have to not give it to the man.

John [00:36:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:37]: To try to get what you want.

John [00:36:38]: Cause that's not gonna work.

Nicole [00:36:39]: Right.

John [00:36:41]: Cause you can't. You have no negotiating power. You have no bargaining power at that point. Especially guys are seeking novelty. A lot of times it's not like you give him the best sex ever, and then he's like, oh, I'm yours forever. It doesn't work like that. It's not gonna happen. It's much better to build the anticipation from him, to make him want to put in work and to be like, oh, wow, well, this must be the. The best. I won't use the terminology, you know, that I could ever get, but because it's so hard to get.

Nicole [00:37:15]: Yeah.

John [00:37:15]: That's what we think is when something's harder to get, it's not just given to us, then it must be better. So I'm sure it will be. Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:23]: But. Yeah, so, I mean, I'm not surprised that you agree with me, but I think there's going to be a lot of men that don't agree. Like, yeah, I do think it's fair that women, you know, you got to act like a lady. You got to act like a lady in Bridgerton. Got to be proper. You got to have self respect. You gotta, you know, hold yourself also to high standards. Right, right. Like I said in the beginning, like, you can't expect a man to put in all the romance. You have to add to that. You have to be a part of the romance story. It's not just a woman just doing nothing. She also has to do. Do things like she has to act a certain way.

John [00:37:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:58]: To get the love story that she wants. But I do think that it's men that really need to listen to this because men are the one fighting this. Men are the one leaning on some of the other cults or cultures that are more negative and hateful towards women. And you cannot get a woman, let alone the love the. That you also want deep down.

John [00:38:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:24]: As a man, if you hate women or if you treat women poorly and even if you treat your woman good but other women poorly, that's. It's eventually going to catch up. Like you can't do one or the other. It's just like women who are like, I hate men, but I love my man. No, that's like, like you're going to eventually start treating your man poorly as well because you have that mindset. So it's the same sort of thing that men need to really realize in order to get the love that they want as well, that this is a good thing for them. Like, yes, it means they're gonna have to do more work. But honestly, men these days need to do more work because I feel like part of their problem and part of why their bottom of the barrel when it comes to dating and they're undesirable to a lot of women is because they don't have, they don't do anything. They don't live up to any standards at all. They just exist and they think that that should be fine and that women should just settle for that.

John [00:39:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:29]: And we come on this all the time and talk about. Women shouldn't have certain particularly high standards that are physical or not like moral.

John [00:39:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:38]: But I don't think that, like, wanting a man to yearn for you is a bad thing. Wanting a man to like, show you and tell you how much he, he wants to be with you and appreciates you and loves you when it gets to that point, that's a good thing. That's how all relationships should be. A woman should be doing the same thing to the man.

John [00:39:57]: Right? That should be the, That's a good standard, right? Like you can knock the standard of 6ft 6, 6ft, 6 figures and 6 pack ABS like that standard. Okay, that's a little bit ridiculous, right? To hold that standard as a woman, but to have a standard of how you should be treated, that's a good standard. That's 100% approval, right? Because it's not putting a restriction on someone based on something that they can't control. Right. I think a lot of people hate it. Anyone would hate it. I mean, if a guy's like, oh, I Don't like brunettes. Like, only blondes are good. Then that's a standard that is like you can't. I mean, I guess you can dye your hair, but it's insulting to you because it's something that you can't control.

Nicole [00:40:39]: It's like love is blind with Alex and Ashley.

John [00:40:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:43]: He's like, not attracted to her cause she's blonde and he only likes brunettes. It's like, come on, dude.

John [00:40:49]: Yeah, but people can, you know, like, guys can't change their height. Right? So getting upset about that as a guy of women having a standard like that. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. But having a standard where it's something that you can meet, that's fair. Those are fair standards to have and they're good ones.

Nicole [00:41:07]: I haven't done this actual research, but I'm pretty confident that if a woman was giving two men the basic standard of bottom of the barrel man, but he's six foot, six figures, six pack, Right. Or someone that's shorter, makes less money.

John [00:41:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:28]: And is not super fit, but is like the man in the romance novels has. Is high standard, high value man in that area.

John [00:41:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:40]: This one would win.

John [00:41:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:42]: Every time.

John [00:41:43]: Yeah, I. I agree.

Nicole [00:41:45]: Like, again, I can't give you exact statistics. I know men love statistics. But I know women and I know plenty of women that have dated very attractive, very successful men, right. That they don't want anything to do with because they can't even have a conversation with this guy, let alone imagine him saying I love you to them. And that's again, telling your partner, I love you is the bare minimum. That's not romance, right? That's. That's just what you should do to the person that you're married. But if they had this guy over here, right, that is not the most attractive man in the world and doesn't make all the money and whatever, but treats her like a princess. Like really admires her and loves her and shows her that is devoted to her, yearns for her.

John [00:42:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:42:31]: She's gonna take this.

John [00:42:32]: Yeah. In the long run. In the long run. Right. So what I mean by that is if you just look at it as these two guys walk into a club, the woman's gonna pick the hot guy, right? But that's not life. That's not reality. Like, life exists beyond just that one instant in that one setting.

Nicole [00:42:51]: I don't think a club is a good example. That's not a majority of. Even where people meet people at this point. Like, I don't know, know again, the statistic of how many people are married. Like, you're coming at it from a view of a hookup culture. Like, if you're in the club, you're not looking for your prince. He's not in the club. He might. You might get lucky. I'm not saying it never ever happens, right? But you're not looking to be romanced in a club. You're looking to get drunk and potentially make bad decisions.

John [00:43:19]: Right?

Nicole [00:43:19]: Like, that's why it is more likely for her to go that way. But also at the same time, a lot of women, again, if they see this guy and yes, she's talking to him, unless she's like, super messed up and just really doesn't care. It's just trying to go home with the hottest person there. If he opened his mouth.

John [00:43:39]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:43:39]: And said stupid stuff, even if she was drunk, she's not just gonna go home with him because he's hot and tall and whatever.

John [00:43:46]: That's why I said in the long run. Right, in the long run. Which means also, like, in the short term, you've got. And I've seen it before, right? Even. Even in that environment, you've got a guy that is tall and attractive and whatever. And. And he has no game and he just talks to women in an obnoxious way. He gets their attention at first, but you got the short guy that is not as gifted in the looks or athletic department, but he has the gift of gab. He knows how to compliment women and how to make them feel special and joke with them. And that guy goes home with the girl. That happens in that. But in the long term, the really long term, in social settings, environments, whatever it is, friend groups, workout classes, whatever you do, wherever you meet people. What you said. Exactly. The other guy wins. The guy that's more charming. And it's not just the guy. That's because the other attribute of that is that. Because guys will say this is not true, that the looks matter so much is that the other attribute of it is it's not just treating that one girl, you know, like obsessing over that one girl. It's about like being the gen. Exactly. Being the gentleman to all women that they see that this is his character traits towards women and that they want to be the object of his obsession because he treats all women as if they are special. And so to have him want you and to be the person that he really is, pouring this into is a valuable thing as opposed to any guy that's not conventionally attractive looking can see a woman and Then be obsessed with her and try to woo her. And that doesn't matter. It's having that character and being that guy. But in the long run, that guy wins for sure.

Nicole [00:45:49]: Yeah. I don't like the example, though, of a nightclub or a bar, and here's why. Because, look, a woman might go to a bar looking for, hopefully, a good man. That's not where she wants to meet him ever. She doesn't even want to meet her husband there. But she goes out there because it's the easy thing to do. Just like men go out there because it's the easy place to pick up women that are hopefully drunk and want to go home with them to sleep, because that's what they want. But women want to be approached in, like, a grocery store or somewhere else. They don't want to find their husband at a bar. And a lot of men go to a bar or club because they want sex. It's not because they're looking for a wife, for sure. And so, again, like, a woman that's gonna go home with a man at a bar or a club usually is doing it for the wrong reasons, for herself. Like, she is feeling down about something. We've already done an episode about this. But, you know, it's not. She's not going there to meet her husband, and she's not expecting her, the person she goes home with, to be her husband. And a lot of times she's avoiding talking to a lot of men because she knows why they're there. And it's not to get to know her, it's to get her undressed.

John [00:47:08]: Right?

Nicole [00:47:09]: So, like, I don't like that example because that's not where people, like women are not expecting to meet the love of their lives at the bar or club.

John [00:47:17]: That's fair.

Nicole [00:47:17]: It's a different sort of environment. And men are going there to get laid easier, right? Like, they're not going to meet women. Like, and so even if a woman is going and wants to talk to men or maybe meet a man, she has to navigate, okay, well, I'm not going home with him. How do I, like, get him interested in me so that he'll talk to me after this even though I'm not going to go home with him? Or do I go home with him because I do like him, Even though I met him at a bar, I know why he's here, right? But then what if he doesn't talk to me ever again? Like, so it's not like I don't like that example or he's Going home

John [00:47:58]: with some other girl. So then like, yeah, yeah, it's like,

Nicole [00:48:01]: do I want to talk to him? Because he probably just picked up someone else.

John [00:48:04]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:48:05]: So, like, that's a horrible example. Like a bar in a club is a horrible example because it's really only used for one thing on both sides a lot of times.

John [00:48:14]: But even in that example is what I'm saying is that it's still like the, the, the other guy wins in the long run.

Nicole [00:48:20]: Right.

John [00:48:21]: So even in that example. But, but yeah, it is, it is not the, it's not the place, right, for, for looking for something similar.

Nicole [00:48:27]: Well, and that's why they're going to matchmakers. They're trying to go out. Like, yes, they might still go to a bar, like I said, but it's harder for women because right now she's having to filter a guy who's probably just trying to get laid, right. When she wants to actually, like, try to talk to him and make it out of the bar or club where they go on an actual date.

John [00:48:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:48]: But you don't. He could be there just for that and he's never going to talk to you again.

John [00:48:52]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:48:53]: You know what I mean? Like, honestly, that's a harder place for women to meet men because a lot of times women get ghosted or rejected by men because men didn't get what they came out to get, which is sex. And so, yeah, I just don't like that example because also I feel like that's where men act like they go out to meet women, but everybody knows that's they're not there to meet women.

John [00:49:15]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:49:16]: They're there to just get one thing done. And so like, men also need to not view the bar or club as the only place that they need to go meet women again. If you read some of these romance books or you figure out how to talk to women, you can go up to her at the grocery store and she won't think you're creepy. But you have to figure that out. Like, you can't just be like, oh, I get rejected by women. If you're not trying to actually learn how to like, be charming, be a gentleman. Like, it's not even about game, really, because game, I feel like, implies, you know, for men, like, how can I get this woman to go home with me? Right. It's just like men are going to have that sort of like, desire anyway, but it's not good for them to focus on that because then it does turn into more of like a Casanova short term. Like, it's still good that they're learning to treat women better. I agree with that.

John [00:50:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:50:08]: But if you want love and you're ready to settle down, you need to know how to do it for the long game, not the short game.

John [00:50:17]: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:19]: So you need to not have your goal be like, I'm going to talk nicely to this lady so I can get laid. You know what I mean? You need to be like, oh, like, you know, I'm going to talk to this. This lady over here by the cantaloupes and, you know, exactly. See if I could take her on a date because she seems really interesting. Like, try to not even have your brain think about just trying to get laid by this woman.

John [00:50:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:50:43]: Like, that also, I feel like, makes you treat women better because again, like, the people on Bridgerton, they're not like, oh, here's a rose, I'm gonna sleep with you eventually. I'm really excited about that. You know what I mean? Like, not that they would say that and not that you would say that out loud, but they actually want to get to know the person. And a lot of men who approach women, especially in, you know, nightclubs and stuff as well, too. But even if you do at the grocery store and your goal in your head is like, I'm going to get laid. I'm going to get laid. Like, that's all your brain is saying.

John [00:51:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:18]: Like, do whatever you got to do to get laid, then you're going to ruin it, because that's not what a woman wants. Like, a woman doesn't want to feel like you're just telling her whatever to get laid. And that's why what you said earlier with your secret recipe.

John [00:51:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:33]: To be like, the one. To actually be like, no, we're not going to have sex yet.

John [00:51:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:38]: Works Exactly. Because now she's like, oh, he's not just trying to get laid.

John [00:51:42]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:51:44]: Like, you have to come across that you're actually interested in her. And I don't think that that's a high standard for women to have.

John [00:51:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:51]: And essentially, like, we're talking about, like, Bridgerton is not really, like, unrealistic. Like, back in that era, men did court women.

John [00:52:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:03]: This is not a fantasy thing. Like, men in different time periods. Yes. You have to go back pretty far at this point.

John [00:52:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:11]: But they courted women. They valued women.

John [00:52:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:52:16]: Enough to be like, I want to pursue you. And this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna go on this date and we're gonna go here and we're gonna do this and we're gonna, you know, get to know each other and you're gonna meet my family and like. It was thoughtful.

John [00:52:28]: Exactly. Yeah. No, I agree 100%. And I mean, even, even just with what you're saying that women want to feel like it wasn't planned, that it just happened, like the sex. Right. That it wasn't like that was the goal. Because then you feel a little dirty, like, you know, you showed up. Right.

Nicole [00:52:48]: Whereas you're like, oh, it could have been anybody. You just were planning to do this and you inserted whatever you could into this equation to get it.

John [00:52:55]: It's a magical experience. It just happened. It wasn't. You know, I think that's the key to it. But. But yeah, but yeah, women wanting to be courted is a good thing. Right. And I think that. And it puts that social pressure on men to meet those standards. Right. Some guys are.

Nicole [00:53:18]: Do you think they're going to.

John [00:53:19]: I mean, I think ultimately, yes. Right. Because even though guys are like, oh, I'm going to opt out of this or know I'm not going to date women anymore, I don't know what you're going to do if you're like AI or something. But I think ultimately, even though there's that sediment, it is a matter of supply and demand. Right. If women are requiring a higher price, then regardless of what you say, you're going to pay that price.

Nicole [00:53:48]: Yeah.

John [00:53:49]: So. And it's good. I mean, it's good to just be. To have a higher standard put on. I mean, when you get into a relationship also, right. Your partner should have a high standard because that's what makes you better.

Nicole [00:54:02]: Yeah.

John [00:54:02]: Right. The things that you can just easily get that doesn't require you to perform to become better, they don't really value. It, doesn't increase your value. Right. So, I mean, one of the big things that I always tell guys too is like, if you want a particular type of woman, then what kind of guy do you need to be in order for that type of woman to be attracted to you?

Nicole [00:54:27]: That's a good one.

John [00:54:28]: And if you think about it that way, then maybe you're going to do more things, take care of your fitness a little bit better. Right. Act better, have some ambition, because you should. And a woman should have. She should want a man that is going to lead her to be able to take care of her financially to, to. To want to invest in her and to you to do all these things, because that, that's a good test for, for for the guy. So.

Nicole [00:54:55]: Yeah.

John [00:54:56]: Yeah. So I think overall it's a good thing.

Nicole [00:54:58]: Well, good. Yeah. I'm just a little. I do feel for women that are in the dating scene, and I can see why they're headed more this way because at this point, women are fine being alone and less fine with settling. And I think men want women to settle.

John [00:55:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:16]: So that they don't have to step up to the plate.

John [00:55:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:18]: You know what I mean? But I think it is exactly like you said, like, if women. More women have this high standard and again, realistic high standard.

John [00:55:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:29]: Then men will eventually have to step up. Unless they want to go AI. But there's nothing that can really replace, like, actually having a physical human being partner that loves you. And I think that if men realize the more love that they pour into women, the more love they will get back from women. Because women don't want to hate men. And I know men don't want to hate women.

John [00:55:53]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:54]: And I know that we've, again, we're still really divided. There is still a lot of, like, men. Man hate and a lot of women hate. But you can't get what you want. You can't love something that you hate. You can't have that work out that way. It will eventually, if you do have it now, get ruined. Because your thoughts about this group of people will bleed over to your partner. So you have to believe the good in women. You have to believe the good in men. Like, you have to believe that's out there and you can have that. And like you said, it's better to focus on you being a good, loving man now so that you will attract a woman.

John [00:56:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:38]: That is good and loving towards you. And you guys can have that romantic relationship that is like the movies or the novels.

John [00:56:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:47]: And vice versa. Like, as a woman, you have to be a woman that loves men and, like, believes that there's good men out there and that you can have the love that you want. And you have to be the woman that you know would be like, a man would want to be with.

John [00:57:05]: Right. And it applies to just kind of having that standard. Right. Because if you're a woman that has a standard that's like, I need to be courted. Right. It needs to come from a humble place.

Nicole [00:57:15]: Right.

John [00:57:16]: As a lady, not as men are beneath me or I'm so high up that men need to, like, do the. Like, I need to be put on a pedestal. This is how I need to have this kind of treatment. Like, that's not appealing and that's a perversion of what we're saying. Right. It should be, like, a humble approach to it. It's like, oh, well, like, this is what I want from a man, and this is what I want for my relationship. And for a person that's dating me and doing it from a humble place of. This is just what my standard is not. Men are dogs and men are beneath me, and they need to grovel at my feet in order to get my approval. That's not it. If you're doing that, then what you're doing is you're doing a disservice to this. And I think some women are doing that, and that is causing some reactions from men that are negative.

Nicole [00:58:15]: But that's not a romance book. That's not how the romance movies go.

John [00:58:18]: So you can't do that as a woman and then be like. Because some of what's driving this too, is some women are like, oh, men are trash. And so I'm gonna act this way. If some man wants to have my time of day, then he needs to treat me like this. And it's like, okay, he does need to treat you like that. But you need to also be a person that's treating people with respect, and that's not treating people with respect. And so if you don't do this the right way, you're just gonna hurt your cause. Cause you're gonna make it so that men are disgusted by this idea of women having standards, because their standards are really you pushing other people down. And that's not what the goal is. The goal is to lift everyone up, and you lift everyone up by calling them to a higher standard. There's a difference between me encouraging you and having a standard and saying, this is what I expect from you because this is what you're capable of versus me saying, oh, you suck. Like, you're falling so short of what I need. I need. Right? Like, you're beneath me. Like, you can't even. If you can't even do this, then you're not even worthy of my time. That's a huge difference. You're pushing someone down versus lifting someone up by encouraging them to be their best. Right? And so women that are taking this approach should be saying that we expect better from men because that's what they're capable of, not because they're trash. And only certain men are capable. All men are capable of this. And that's why the standard exists, is to call them to be better, not to shove them down and to lift yourself up. I think that's the key.

Nicole [01:00:00]: No. A thousand percent. And men should have standards, again, realistic ones for how they want to be treated by women and hold women to that.

John [01:00:08]: Right.

Nicole [01:00:09]: Like it's not a one way street. Like women are just talking about it. Women are just saying that they want the romance fantasies. But it's like men should have standards too. They should be the right standards. Again, it can't be like, well, you need to give me five blowjobs a day. That is not what we're talking about here. It has to be realistic. And I say that because realistic men would say what I just said to

John [01:00:35]: a day like, like 5 is ridiculous.

Nicole [01:00:37]: Don't encourage this. This is exactly why I use that as an example, because I know that we'll take.

John [01:00:43]: We'll take one. We'll take one. And that's my final offer.

Nicole [01:00:48]: This is why women are going to the matchmakers. They're watching the romance novels or watching the romance novels. Watching the romance movies. But no, you know what I mean?

John [01:00:58]: Yeah, but. All right.

Nicole [01:01:01]: Yeah, we did have a thing.

John [01:01:03]: Oh, yeah, A little bit.

Nicole [01:01:04]: For the end. John jinxed us.

John [01:01:06]: I know. I always jinx us every time, so.

Nicole [01:01:09]: You do.

John [01:01:10]: I forget exactly what it started with. I mean, I think, you know, looking back, reflecting on it, it was about a parenting issue. And I was, I. I didn't really reflect on what you were saying to me, like in terms of. You got a little bit upset about how I was responding to you being upset. And I was more focused on what is right and what is wrong, which again, I could make a logical argument and say, oh, what I was saying was right and the way that you were responding was wrong. But in reality, you were reflecting back something deeper to me, which was. Which was how I should be showing up as a man. And you weren't getting that. And so whether you were doing things right or saying the right things or I was justified or not, it didn't matter. As I reflected on this, what I came to realize was that regardless of what the situation was, you were trying to tell me something that was a need of yours that wasn't being met. And the way that I was, I was coming across, which you are the mirror to me, which you show me the things where I have deficiencies. And I was ignoring that part and focusing on the part that didn't really matter as much. Even though I might have had some valid concerns or arguments about what my experience was, the more important picture of me being the man, being the leader was to see that, okay, there's something going on here that is upsetting you, and that's what should matter more to me than all of those other things. It's not lesson time necessarily. It's more of, okay, tending to what's going on with you time.

Nicole [01:03:05]: So, yeah, I didn't feel seen. I felt just trying to be fixed. Because even during the conversation, like, I was trying really hard to say how I felt.

John [01:03:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:17]: And not do it in, like, the avoidant way. Like, tried to be more vulnerable. Was it perfect? No. Was it, like, me just kind of, like, venting my opinions and things like that? Yes. But even while you were giving me logical answers, I agreed with you.

John [01:03:37]: Right.

Nicole [01:03:37]: But I felt like more like you were trying to fix me than understand me. I never felt like you really understood. Like, you did say, like, I'm sorry you're hurt.

John [01:03:50]: Right.

Nicole [01:03:51]: But it felt more like you just checking that off the list of, like, okay, I acknowledged it, rather than, like, really trying to see me.

John [01:04:05]: Right.

Nicole [01:04:05]: And how I was showing up. And because I just felt like you were trying to logic, like, my way out of my feelings, I did end up reverting back to a more, like, defensive, avoidant way of handling things. And that was wrong of me. Like, regardless of how you showed up, I should have done better and not reverted to that. And so I did derail our conversation a lot by acting that way. And I'm sorry about that. But I am glad that you had the conversation with me because eventually I was able to get back out on the other side and.

John [01:04:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:45]: Be more vulnerable again. And then you were able to see what I was talking about from the beginning of the conversation. And so, like, it was a beneficial thing.

John [01:04:55]: Yeah. I think it showed us both some things. Right. Like I said, like, I. I was getting too focused on the minutiae, like, the details, as opposed to what is going on with your heart, which is the most important thing, which I feel

Nicole [01:05:10]: like a lot of men do fall into it. It was a. It was a typical man reaction.

John [01:05:15]: Right.

Nicole [01:05:16]: Which is woman upset, man fix. Right, right.

John [01:05:21]: Like, exactly.

Nicole [01:05:21]: Or man tried to fix.

John [01:05:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:05:23]: Man tried to be like, well, just don't do that. You know, like, just don't think about that. Like, no one can hurt you. It's like that when someone is open and you're having a different conversation, you can say that. But when someone's hurt and someone tells you you have the choice whether something hurts you or not, that doesn't really fix it. You know what I mean? Like, yes, logically, that is true.

John [01:05:47]: Right.

Nicole [01:05:47]: And if we were In a different layer of the conversation. That would definitely help me.

John [01:05:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:05:54]: But it did not. Like, if someone's like, I'm hurt, this. This thing hurt me. Like, I'm really hurt. And you're like, well, they didn't really do anything. You could. Like, you're the only one that can hurt yourself or cause you to feel hurt. Does that feel good?

John [01:06:12]: No.

Nicole [01:06:13]: You know, like, yeah. And I guess that's just. And I don't think you maliciously tried to do it, but it was just a classic, like, way that men do handle, like, a lot of emotional conversations with women. Like, it wasn't surprising, but didn't make me feel seen or relieved. Like, it didn't make me feel better.

John [01:06:40]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [01:06:41]: And it felt like kind of like, masculine. And again, it's not an excuse. I'm responsible for my own actions. But when I felt like you were being more masculine with me, when I was trying to be more feminine, then I felt like, oh, well, I gotta. He's talking to me like a man, so I need to get more masculine. Like, I need a man up. Like, he's telling me that, oh, I shouldn't let things hurt me. Okay, well, let me just turn my feelings off then. You know what I mean? Because, like, I'm still hurt, but he's telling me that I can only hurt myself. So let me just switch this off real quick.

John [01:07:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:07:16]: And then I just got in the numb avoidant mode, which then frustrated you. And you're like, what do you. Where's the vulnerability? And then you. And then I'm like, you know, I'm trying. I don't. I. I tried. And then it was. You were, like, logicing me. And then I went back to this. And then. Let me go back to this. It was. It's just.

John [01:07:40]: Yeah. And it's the thing, like, also that just, you know, for guys to remember is, like, the brave thing, which is now I'm not going to. Billy, recite it. But breathe, breathe. Refrain from defending yourself. Right. Or resist defending yourself. Evaluate. Like, evaluate the situation. Like, why is she hurt? What's going on? Validate.

Nicole [01:08:06]: Wait, it's brave.

John [01:08:07]: Or assess the situation. Assess why she heard what's going on. Validate her emotions. And then last is educate. So that's the. When the order, like, the education part doesn't come until all those other ones. Otherwise it's not well received. So even if I, as a man, see you doing something in a wrong way, not being vulnerable, whatever, if I try to address that towards the beginning, then it's not going to be heard very well. Right. Like, you know, anyone in an emotional state is not going to. So. But after having, like, validated, fully validated the emotions and shown understanding and the desire to understand you, then you're more receptive to the educated part. Okay, so this is. Yeah. Now let's talk about, you know, how this could have been handled better. You know, it's like. So I think that's the thing that I still struggle with sometimes, is that I need to wait, leave that part to the end where it's much more receptive, and it's gonna be heard a lot better rather than jumping to it. Cause sometimes I'm like, oh, oh, well, you're doing things the wrong way. So then the thing that's your actual concern doesn't actually get addressed. So. And that's, you know, my fault when that happened. So.

Nicole [01:09:32]: Yeah. No, and I know why you do it, because I know that you know that I'm very logical and that I will change my mind and I will be like, oh, that makes sense. And apply it.

John [01:09:41]: Right.

Nicole [01:09:42]: But again, it's very hard in the moment if you're like, I'm hurt. This hurt me. Like, I'm sad. I feel this. And then someone's like, well, that's your fault. Like, you didn't say it like that, but essentially they're like, that's your fault because no one can hurt you. You can only hurt yourself. And then you're like, okay, do I. Then do I bring this up when I feel this way? Because it's my fault. You know what I mean? Like, it's. Yeah, it causes more problem, like, more internal conflict, like, and everything you said was correct.

John [01:10:14]: Right.

Nicole [01:10:15]: But when you're going straight to that, like you said it, you can't fully process the other emotions that you're trying to fully process. And you're like, come to me. Talk to me about these things. And then I try to do it. And even if I do it in a wrong way, I would rather you help me rather than, like, help me in a way of, like, help me express them properly. Not, like, help me logically. Not. Yeah, process that, like, logically, like, make them go away. If that makes sense.

John [01:10:47]: Yeah, that makes sense.

Nicole [01:10:48]: So. But no, it was. It was good. It was necessary. And, yeah, that's how all of them are. But don't jinx us anymore. Don't jinx.

John [01:10:57]: I have to until we're done doing the work.

Nicole [01:11:01]: So forever my job, forever.

John [01:11:05]: There will be a day when. When I try to jinx this, and then it doesn't jinx.

Nicole [01:11:08]: And they're like, no, don't do that.

John [01:11:10]: That's a double jinx now.

Nicole [01:11:12]: Yeah, don't do that. Knock on wood. I mean, to flip over this table.

John [01:11:16]: All right, well, that's. That's it for this week. If you have a question for us, email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com or go visit the website, which I need to update with the new episodes. Better than PerfectPod.com. see you next time.