John: It's very easy for men and women to get defensive when the person you care about is coming to you. Imagine someone else hurt them in the way that they're telling you. That will help you empathize with them and put yourself more in their shoes immediately. You know, you have a more immediate response of empathy rather than... Granted, it's hard to do this in the moment because a lot of emotions are going on, but it just seems like it's an easier way for everybody to kind of cut the defensive out.

Nicole: Yeah, that's great. That's brilliant. Did you come up with that?

John: Yeah, just now. And I didn't want to forget it. We... That's... I forgot to get our notebooks.

Nicole: Beyond the perfect. We discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find... All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John: That's right. And did you want to start with the wire that you were mentioning in the last episode?

Nicole: So, it's interesting. We had some comments on because we did the episode on women not being empathetic to men. I think it was called "Women Don't Care About Men's Feelings," and there was... We had some clips on there, and on one of the clips, someone was like something about your Jets hat. Like, "I see you have your Jets hat on." I was like, "What the heck? Why would they say that? That doesn't make any sense." And then I found it today. I think they said, "I thought you had your Jets hat on," or something. Oh, something like that. We should have looked up what... I remember what the exact comment was, but it had to do with the Jets hat, which neither of us knew what that meant. But then I found it today. I stumbled across a video of this guy, and he's got some wire, like a spool of wire, and his wife is like, "Oh, what are you doing? I thought you were working." And he was like, "Well, you know, this wire, I was just looking at this," and he's like, "This wire, you know, this is all I have left of it, and I bought this 40 years ago, and this is what's left of it." And he was like, "And that's like... This is like my life." It was a pretty deep thing that he was saying there. He was like, "Do you get it? Do you understand?" And she was like, "Uh, yeah, I feel sorry for you, but I noticed you had your Jets hat on." And he was like, "Okay, forget it." It was just one of those... "I thought you were crying because you had your jet on." Something like that. That was very insensitive.

John: And so, I think a lot of guys could relate to that experience. It obviously went extremely viral, and it's something... And again, when we did messages on this, our episodes did well, got a lot more views and listens, and our shorts, the short content, also got a lot of action on that because it is an experience that is very relatable to men. So, we're going to talk about, or I don't know, maybe we'll do another episode. We kind of address it in the episode, but talking about what does this mean? How do you deal with this? Does this mean give up as a man? I was going to do one on my main channel on Bulldog Mindset too, talking about this too, with that video in there. But it is just something that is a very resonant thing that men feel like they can't open up. And we had so many comments on our videos that were like, "Oh yeah, see? Every time you share, I'll never share with a woman again. I'll never ever do that again because it gets... She's against me. It gets, you know, now she's not attracted to me anymore," or whatever type of things. And it's kind of sad, I think, that so many... That happens, that a lot of men misunderstand it, and that they shut off completely.

Nicole: Yeah, never trust again. They get jaded.

John: Which is not the right approach. Like, the pain is real, but the approach is to stay open in that because it takes a certain kind of man to be harmed and then to even take the chance and then be harmed and then close up. But it takes a different kind of man to be harmed and stay open in that pain, endure through that, breathe through that, and still remain open. And in many of those cases, I think when you are in that kind of situation, for whatever reason, we talked about in some of the other episodes where maybe it's because the woman hasn't had the need in her life to practice the empathy. Maybe it's because she feels closed off, and she feels like she never got any empathy. Like, he doesn't listen to her. He doesn't... And so she's kind of spiteful about it. Whatever the thing is, as the man, continuing to stay open is going to break through those things. And that's really... It's a harder path to take, especially when facing that kind of thing because it is painful. To watch that video is a painful video to watch, honestly. However, the answer is not to just shut down and to never speak about it again. It's to keep continuing to be open, even in that moment. Like, "Wow, what you just said, you know, I'm trying to share something with you, and it really hurt me," or "That didn't feel very good," or "Ouch," or whatever it is. It doesn't mean you have to start crying and be, or get upset about it, but just to share that. Be like, "Oh, wow, because that's that open vulnerability to be like, 'Oh, wow, yeah, the way that you responded to that right now, that just... It didn't feel good to me. It feels hurtful to me.'" Might seem like a weak thing. "Oh, if I do this now, she's really going to be not attracted to me." And it's... Women are not... I know I'll let you try, but women are not not attracted to a guy because he's vulnerable or sharing. It's because he's being a little bitch about it. That's the thing. It's like if you're sharing your emotions to a woman and you're being a little bitch about it. What I mean by that is that you're, "Oh, woe is me," like, you know, whiny. We know the difference versus, "This is my heart. This is what's going on," you know, open while still remaining in love yourself, you know, sharing it through love. A woman is not going to lose respect for you, and it's not going to lose attraction for you. In fact, that shows a greater amount of strength, and she'll be more attracted to you. And I think that's the thing that a lot of men are missing. They're just conflating sharing any kind of emotion, and they're not thinking about how are they sharing the emotion and where is their actual heart. And, you know, again...

John: It doesn't mean that you can't be wronged, but it's a hard subject. It really is. So, I'll let you...

Nicole: All I could think about was, I think it's the "Untethered Soul" book by Michael Singer, you know, not letting anything close your heart. Right, like, which is easier said than done, right? I understand that, but you also feel better when you learn how to keep your heart open and proceed.

John: Even if you're hurt, in a loving way, and try to actually fix the problem, you'll also inspire her to do the same. Because maybe, like you said, she doesn't know how or she's never had to, or whatever it might be. But if you lead by example, that will influence her.

Nicole: Yeah, and teach her how to do that as well too. Because, like in the book, you know, keeping your heart open, the second that you close it, kind of going back to the last episode, you're going to feel lonely and you're going to feel alone. And like you said, I understand why men would do this because it hurts and you want to protect yourself. But at the same time, now you're isolating yourself and you feel alone, even though you're still in this relationship. And you're really just sweeping things under the rug that'll eventually come out in a way that's not beneficial to any of you.

John: In this situation, so if you can learn how to keep your heart open, it's kind of like, again, going back to the whole episode on vulnerability, like that can't be used against you. And when you know that you're trying and you're putting love in and trying to fix the situation and being vulnerable and keeping your heart open, you do get some sort of peace from knowing that you're doing the right thing.

Nicole: You're doing, yeah, all that you can do. And that does give you a sense of comfort, even if things aren't working out the way that you want them to, or, you know, maybe she isn't being influenced by the example you're setting, and that's also hurtful. But at least you'll have this understanding and this peace of knowing that you did all that you could do, and you did the right thing, and you've been trying to help her see that and influence her. But, you know, maybe that isn't working for some reason.

John: Yeah, because it'll work for a lot of people, but there are some circumstances where it's not going to potentially make a difference. And, you know, then unfortunately, you have to make maybe a harder decision and decide whether you want to stay there or not. But again, it makes all the harder things easier when you know that you've done all that you can do.

Nicole: Yeah, and your intentions have been pure and good. And even if you made mistakes, you weren't trying to harm somebody. You kept your heart open, you kept giving love, even in those hard situations. And so, you know, if you haven't read that book, "The Untethered Soul," you should read it because it will also help put in perspective, in a different way, the things that I'm saying. And, yeah, you know, a man wrote it, so if you'd rather listen to a guy talk about it from a guy's perspective, then you should definitely read it because it's true. And like, I've read it, and even sometimes I've closed my heart off, right, when I should have kept it open. But I'm, you know, trying not to do that. And, you know, it's better to not beat yourself up if you make a mistake and just try to do better the next time.

John: Yeah, the mantra that I have really has been coursing through my head since around Christmas time has been, "Love, love, respond in love, respond in love, respond in love." That's the mantra. And every time, I've been reminding myself multiple times when things happen, just like, stop, pause, respond in love. And it's powerful, not just in a romantic relationship but in all your relationships and all the things that you're dealing with in life, to just keep on thinking that. We react many times, but it's harder to respond in love, but it becomes a habit, and it can become a habit.

Nicole: And then, that's like we said at the end of the last episode, we were both able to do that in that situation, and that's why it didn't come into an argument or a fight because we both were able to respond in love. And, yeah, it is a hard thing. It's easy to be like, "Oh, see, women are so horrible, and women don't care about men's feelings, and they don't have empathy." It's easy to do that and then to say, "See, this justifies this, and this is why we don't share our emotions," and to get on that bandwagon. Right, and I understand that, and there's some validity to that, but that's not a bandwagon that's going to produce any kind of positive result or change or any kind of growth.

John: Because, matter, yeah, I mean, maybe some women would see that and say, "Oh, yeah, maybe I've done this in the past," but it really doesn't produce a major change. But if you think, respond in love, and you think, "I'm going to continue to have my heart open despite," because think about how strong of a man you have to be in order to remain open, to remain your heart open in love, to keep it open while under attack, while being hurt, while not receiving the empathy that you should be receiving. When you're doing that, you have to be a much stronger man, and that's a respectable man. Whether if you're with a woman and you're able to do that and she doesn't respect you more for it, it's probably not the woman you should be with anyway. But she will, and other people will, and more importantly, you'll respect yourself more.

Nicole: Right, because you'll say, "I didn't just close up when I got hurt because that's the easy thing to do," and that's what most of us do. That's the easy path. Everyone can relate to that. It's so much harder to stay open in love, walking through the pain, and still emanating love while you're walking. It's a very difficult thing to learn. It's a skill that I am still learning and have had to learn and will continue to learn, but it's powerful. We all are.

John: Yeah, and you feel better after that. No matter what the resolution ends up being, you feel better because you know that ultimately, the thing that makes you feel good or bad is how you view yourself, and you will view yourself in a positive light.

Nicole: Even, you know, so, and it will change things. It will. It's, you know, even if you can't influence someone else, that'll change things within you. That's what I was trying to convey too. It's like knowing that you responded in love and still gave love will fulfill you.

John: Yeah, like even if you can't influence the other person, you will feel love for yourself for doing that. You know what I mean? Because, like you said, that's a hard thing, and I think that's what we're all here learning how to do, right? Is not let anything take us off kilter of love.

Nicole: Exactly, that's exactly like, that's what so many people say is our purpose here, is to like, learn to love and spread love. And that's all that matters is love, and I believe that.

John: It's hard because we have all these other human emotions that are like, "I'm angry, I'm sad, I'm frustrated, I'm lonely," or whatever it is that's trying to keep us off the path, you know. But I do feel like that's what we're here for. And it's because it's not easy to give love when you're hurt or you're upset or you're angry or whatever. So, yeah, that is how we do the work. And I would say that as a man, the most masculine that you can be in the eyes of a woman, and you can confirm this or not, is when you are able to continually, like, you can't be shaken, you can't be moved off of your giving love. Like, no matter what she says, no matter what anyone says, you're just pouring out your heart in love, and you can't be shaken from it. She knows she can't move you off of it.

Nicole: To me, I would say that probably is the most attractive. No, it is because, as women, we're emotional, right? Everyone knows that. And we know how easy it is to let emotions sweep us into whatever emotion we have. And so, seeing a man not do that proves how strong he is. I think women can admire the strength it takes to do that more than maybe men can realize at first. They realize, you know, how hard it is or how disciplined it is to do it, then they'll know. But I think women understand, and it also shows how much of a rock and how you are the protector, and you are her safe place. And, you know, she can be emotional, and it doesn't sway you in other ways, right? Like, I'm not saying that women can yell at you or call you names or things like that. I'm not saying that those behaviors are acceptable in any way, but it does make a woman feel like she can be emotional, and it's not going to throw you off balance because you have the strength to hold steady, right, in what you believe in. And then that also translates to more trust in all the other things that you do, you know, or lead her through or take care of in the relationship because she knows how powerful emotions can be. And if you can control those, I feel like she'll trust you with anything. Honestly, yeah, I agree.

John: Well, good. I think that is a good segue into, oh, that it is because I was like, I mean, like we're kind of talking about how to do the work. It is a big, yeah, that is really it. It is the thing which is the topic of this episode, is how to actually do the work. Right, what it means to do the work. And what I was really thinking about in terms of this is that a lot of people think they're working on their relationship, and they're not because what they're doing is they're avoiding conflict. So they think, okay, in fact, trying to think if I want to name names or not, but I won't name names. I won't name names. Someone definitely very close to me had said, "Oh, I asked him how his relationship was going," and he said, "Oh yeah, I'm being more patient. I'm tolerating more." And, you know, tolerance is the death of a relationship. Tolerance is, you should not tolerate. Tolerate is bad. It seems like the right thing. It seems like, okay, you be better in the relationship if your partner annoys you or they do things that you don't like, and you're able to let that be and not cause a conflict. I don't need to say something about that. That seems like doing the work. It's the opposite of doing the work. That is how you don't do the work. That's how you ensure that your relationship is going to be destroyed. That is, everyone's like, "Oh, I don't know. I don't sweep things under the rug." That's sweeping things under the rug, yeah. That's how you do it. And so, doing the work really means bringing out the conflict, doing it in the right way, right, but not letting anything slide, in the sense that if it upsets you, you need to resolve that. You need to share that because the upset isn't just going to go away, right? It's not going to, you're not going to deal with it on your own. It's not going to go away. You need to have a talk, a right kind of talk about it. But that's what doing the work is. And it's going to be a painful process because you're going to have fights and you're going to have arguments, and you're going to talk for eight hours, right? And you're going to have hurt feelings, but you're going to be resolving the things. You're not letting them go. You're not letting them fester, no build up. Yeah, if you have a bunch of trash, okay, and you have it in your trash can in your kitchen, and you don't take that out, it's not getting better. It's getting worse. It's getting smellier. It's rotting. It's getting, when you deal with that thing and have to take that trash out, it's going to be some nasty, slimy, moldy trash. So you got to get rid of the trash. You got to clean that trash out regularly, yeah, right. That's the thing about that's what doing the work is.

Nicole: No, you're right. And I feel like even when we first got together, I didn't know how to do this. And so, a lot of people have just never seen what this looks like, yeah. And they don't, they think that they can handle it on their own or figure it out, and because maybe that's how they've operated the whole time, or they're like, "This is my problem." But you really taught me that when you're in a relationship, like, you do need to talk through everything. And I know there's going to be men who are like, "Well, she doesn't care about my feelings," or women that's like, "Well, he doesn't care about my feelings," right? And you and I have been there where like we've both been defensive, which equals, "She doesn't care about my feelings. Doesn't care about my feelings." Like, even if someone's not saying, "I don't care about your feelings," directly, then being defensive feels like, "I don't care about your feelings. I care about my feelings." So, you know, we're not sitting here acting like we've never been in the cycle, yeah. But because we've been in the cycle, and because, really thanks to you, that you've made sure that we don't have any underlying things left behind or everything's fully talked through, that it's the first time in my entire life that I felt like I don't have anything under the rug. And it's a very freeing experience. And like you said, even though it seems scary, or, you know, it's not going to be pretty, or, you know, it might take you eight hours, yeah, the feeling of not having anything under the rug for the first time in your life is worth it. It's worth just going through whatever you have to go through to make sure nothing goes under the rug. It's all swept up and put trash in the trash is taken out regularly. That is worth it. It's worth sitting there and figuring it out. And plus, if you're, you know, really doing the work, like you said, in all aspects, right, and you really want to be better, and you really want to have a better relationship, and you're watching our podcast, yeah, it.

John: It gets easier, yeah. You know, these things become your new normal, and you might mess up, you might go back to your old ways, but keep working towards doing better and talking it all out, and not sweeping anything under the rug, and you will find a new peace that you never even knew existed. And I say that because men constantly are like, "I want peace," right? But they're also a lot of times the ones sweeping things under the rug or tolerating things, or, you know, whatever. And women do it too, but I'm just saying, like, they crave that so bad because they have a huge mound of dirt under their rug, right? Like, they've just been sweeping it under there. So, even though they're like, "I'm keeping the peace by tolerating," you're really not because you got a mountain under your rug.

John: Oh yeah, I'll give you, I'll pick on one of my friends. I won't name the name, but about this conversation I had with them, there are two points in it that are exactly this. When he was having some issues, he said, "Oh yeah, she's wrong, but I'll just apologize, and it's better to be in love than wrong." And I was like, "No, don't apologize for something that you don't believe." I was like, "That's tolerance. Tolerance is the death of a relationship. Do not tolerate. Empathize, let her vent, validate her emotions, but do not apologize for something that you don't agree with. Don't do it. Don't just say she's wrong but resolve it. You don't have to, it doesn't have to be about who's right or who's wrong, but you have something here. You feel a way about it; she feels a way about it. You need to resolve those things."

John: It might seem like, and there's a lot of guys that are like, "Happy wife, happy life," and they're like, "Yeah, just apologize," and you hear the memes, or guys are like, "Just apologize." There's some truth to apologizing, but not to apologizing when you don't think you're wrong. That's just being weak, and that's not respectable. Like, you know, just to resolve things, to make peace when you apologize, it's not good. That's tolerance, and that will destroy your relationship if you continue to do that.

John: So, I think that's important because a lot of people, when they're doing that, they think they're doing the work, right? And I'm not trying to pick on anyone that does these things, but it feels like you're doing the work because you're like, "Okay, I'm being the bigger person. I'm being the bigger man. I'm not caring about what's right or wrong, and I'm just saying, okay, I'll just apologize just to resolve the issue." But you haven't really resolved the issue because you're still holding it here. It's impossible; you're not really letting it go. When you actually talk it out, you will.

John: And, well, quick little thing, yeah, because we need to clarify. I know you're not saying don't apologize for how the person feels, but don't apologize for something that you know that you still feel a certain way about because you can still be like, "I'm sorry that this hurt you," or "I hurt you," without still caring about what it is that's going on. Because I feel like you do that, and I feel like you need to clarify that because it sounds like if someone comes up to you and they're just like, "This hurt my feelings," and you're like, "Well, I meant to do like I wanted to do this," which is not how you operate, but I get what you're saying. It's like if it matters to you, don't apologize for the thing, and like, that can still matter to you, but how you affected somebody, you can still care about.

John: I'm glad you brought that up because this actually came up in one of my YouTube videos where I was talking about a similar subject, and someone commented like, "You just said don't apologize, but then you apologize." And there's a difference between sympathy and apology, and we use the word "sorry" both times, right? So, it is good to sympathize with a person who's maybe in the wrong, but their feelings are hurt. So, they say, "Oh, you know, I'm sorry that that hurt your feelings. That's not my intent." That's not an apology; that's not an admission of wrongdoing. That's, you know, that's I'm saying that I'm sympathizing. It's not even empathy; it's sympathy. And sympathy and empathy have two different places, and they're both important, but sympathy because I'm saying, "I care that you feel bad." That's what sympathy is. "I care that it's important to me that you feel bad."

John: Empathy is relating to understand how that feels, which you might not be able to be empathetic in that situation because you may not understand how that feels because you're not that person. To you, there's still an issue of right or wrong, and you don't agree with necessarily where they're at, but the sympathy should always be there in that respect of, "I care that you feel bad." And we say the word "sorry" in both cases. One sorry is a sympathetic sorry; the other sorry is, "I did you wrong, and I'm deeply sorry that I did this. I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. I shouldn't have done that." That's an apology.

John: So, I'm glad you brought that up because I think there's a big, because when I said that in my YouTube video, someone was like, "Oh, you just said I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. You're not supposed to say sorry for something that you don't think you're wrong in." And that's not the same thing. That's a sympathetic sorry, and there's just not another better word for it, unfortunately.

John: You know, you can't really say, "Yeah, but you needed to explain it." I'm glad you said that. It would have gotten misconstrued, and tons of guys out there would have been like, "Well, I'm not sorry," you know, because John told me not to apologize for something I know I'm right about. And like, you can still, but I know you as a person can sympathize.

John: Yeah, I mean, you could even say, "I care that your feelings are hurt. It's meaningful to me. I don't want your feelings to be hurt. I care about that." If you don't want to use the word "sorry" in that case, but to me, I think no one thinks that because you say, "I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings," or "that your feelings are hurt," it doesn't mean, "Oh, I'm right; you're wrong. You're admitting you're wrong." That doesn't mean an admission of guilt. That's like an ego thing too, if you're afraid to say a word or afraid they're going to have a tit for tat. Like, that's your ego talk because I say it all the time. "Oh, I'm sorry that hurt your feelings. I'm sorry I didn't mean to come across that way. I'm sorry." So, it doesn't mean that I'm like, "Okay, I did everything wrong, and you didn't do anything."

John: I know, right? Because even if you do something wrong to me and it hurts your feelings, I should still care that your feelings are hurt. Because we're humans, I should care about you, right? So yeah, okay.

Nicole: Does that now... It's, yeah, I just went too far down the wormhole and then have to be like going back. I'm glad you brought that up because it has come up. So, and then the other piece of it, in the same conversation, is this: if a woman says to you, "What's wrong? You're being a [__]." Like, you already [__] up. If a woman says, if she has to say to you, "What's wrong?" how does she know that something's wrong? Because you're pouting in some way. You're being a [__]. You're being affected. You're off your game. She knocked you off your game. That's why she's asking you. And where I'm going with this, connecting the two, is that you've already missed the point. You've already started to sweep it under the rug, right? Because you've already now displayed a change in your emotional state, how you're showing up, because you didn't resolve the issue. And so, if she has to come to you and say, "What's wrong?" instead of you going to her and telling her what needs to be resolved, you've abdicated leadership. You've allowed her to lead. Now she's got to fix the problem, right? Or you're being a pouty little boy, like a little baby. And I say this with love to everyone who I'm saying this to because I do this. I definitely ask you, "What's wrong?" I've done it. But now, and I can tell the vibe too, like you're not even necessarily pouty because you don't really pout, no, no. But I can tell the energy. But I've messed up there. When you're asking me, "What's wrong?" I've messed up because even if you've done something that's hurt me, I've messed up because I haven't addressed it properly. Because I must have closed down my heart a little bit; otherwise, you wouldn't ask that question, right?

John: You know what I'm saying? I'm not saying that you have to be like, "Oh, nothing affects me. I'm just completely stoic, and nothing you can bring." But you got to say, "Hey, there's something we need to talk about," or "Hey, there's something I want to talk about." Even if you say, "Not right now because we're, you know, but a little bit later, I want to talk to you about something." Now you're not being a butt, little [__]. But it did dawn on me when I was having this conversation. I'm like, "God, that's so true." Like, you know, when I was saying that, I'm like, "Damn, you're so wise." I say no, but really, like if a woman says to you, "What's wrong?" you are being a little [__]. Well, that's your indicator. Whoever has a problem is responsible for bringing that problem to attention. Like, you should not... someone shouldn't have to say, "What's wrong?" Like, right, for anybody, a man or a woman. Because then you're putting... I'm not saying that they shouldn't, like, they care about you, so that's why they're asking. But I'm saying, like, because there's been plenty of times where you seem like something's wrong, and you tell me no. And there have been times where you tell me no, and there really is. But I've gotten to a point where I'm like, "Okay, I asked you, and this is your time to bring it to me if there is." And I'm not going to ask you again, you know what I mean? Because then it does put the responsibility on the other person to keep asking you or to beat it out of you when it's really, if you're the one that's affected in any way, it's your responsibility to bring that up and to address that. And I have to be better about that too because you'll be like, "What's wrong?" You know? So, you know, I'll tell you on the third time, "Ask again." It's like, you know, it shouldn't be that way. I know, but it is important to bring up that it is your responsibility to bring up those things if you're the one that has the problem, is to address it. And you, um, again, you might make mistakes, and you might close off your heart a little bit, and someone might be like, "What's wrong?" You know? But it is your responsibility. And just as a side note, the words "What's wrong?" should probably be removed from the vocabulary anyway because it does come across slightly as an attack because it means that there must be something. Whereas saying, "It looks like you're okay," or "It looks like something might be bothering you," right? That's more of an invitation versus "What's wrong?" "What's wrong?" demands an answer like, "No, there's nothing wrong." And you're also a lot of times going to get "nothing" because if they're not feeling like you are in a space where you're going to be, uh, where it's safe. See, that's the hard part too because, you know, like earlier, when we talked about the thing at the last episode, you had gotten upset because I had brought something up. So, I genuinely was trying not to bring it up because you were upset that I brought it up before. And so, it wasn't necessarily like I didn't want to tell you, but it was like, is this the wrong time or not? You know, like because it was the wrong time then. So then, I was like, I genuinely don't know if he wants me to actually tell him what's wrong right now or not.

Nicole: Yeah, so that's also like, I'm just saying, from my own personal experience, like it can be hard to tell, you know? And in that time, I did tell you, you know? But then I was like, "Look, if he's going to get upset again, he asked me what's wrong, so I need to tell him what's wrong." Though I did, at first, was like, "Nothing," or, you know, like, "It's fine." But yeah, yeah, that's normal, like to not know the situation. But at the same time, it is kind of better to just suffer the consequences of whatever happens, dealing with, you know, and like if you had gotten mad and been like, "This is not the time," then it's like, you know, I don't know, like I would have been like, "Okay, well, tell me when the correct time is," or "I have a problem, but it's not like this is bothering me, so you let me know when it's the right time," or something, you know? You have to figure out the way to deal with it, yeah. But definitely, the "What's wrong?" and that's something I have to be better at, is just remove that from my vocabulary. Instead, say, "It seems like something's on your mind," "It seems like something's bothering you," "It seems like there might be something that you would like to talk about." That creates a much more safe space to answer the question, you know? Because it's also not assumptive as well. Because sometimes it can feel like, "What's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong?" It's like, "I don't have anything wrong. I'm just you."

John: I know I ate too many Cheetos, but yeah, these are just the things that are part of doing the work, right? The more preemptive that you can be... And I think there's a little bit more leeway for women, who are more emotional creatures in their femininity, because a woman doesn't have to be never moved off of her rock. That's a masculine trait. But as a man, definitely, if you're being asked what's wrong, you messed up.

Nicole: There's a little more leeway for a woman to be in her emotions and to be affected by her emotions. You do want a woman to be affected by her emotions and to be able to display that. So for you to notice that as a man and then ask her, "Is there something that's bothering you right now?" or "Is there something that you'd like to talk about? You seem like you might be upset." That's okay. But obviously, as a woman, you should answer with an actual answer. I don't think a woman is quite the same in that regard, but definitely, if you're in an emotional state and he hasn't noticed, you should bring it up. You should say, "Hey, can I talk to you about something?" Especially if the sadness is starting to morph into anger or bitterness, that's when you definitely need to kill that dragon while it's a baby and bring it up, because baby dragons are easier to kill than grown dragons.

John: Good to know, good to know. And I think a really important part of doing the work is, in a lot of instances in a relationship where there's feelings involved, you want to just not deal with it. That's why people avoid it; they think it's going to be hard and emotionally charged. But what you really have to do is be like, "You know what? I need to get this off my chest, or we need to talk about this," and just suffer whatever consequences happen. Like if she gets defensive and we got to talk for eight hours, then that's what we got to do. So, you kind of have to, I don't want to say man up, but for men, you do have to man up, and for women, you do have to allow yourself to be vulnerable and emotional.

Nicole: And empathize, especially if you've never learned how to do that. You have to face those things because the only way you move through those things is if you do those things. Instead of avoiding it, which will cause more problems and a bigger explosion, handle it right away. Even if your partner gets defensive and you guys go on the crazy cycle, the more you do it and the more you try to do it in the right way, the more that the right way will become your new normal.

John: Exactly. So even though it's scary and you're like, "I don't want to deal with this," it's worth doing. Your communication will get better, just the way you handle things will get better. And if they don't, it goes back to knowing that you did everything that you could. You tried to not have resentment and allow the other person to get the stuff from under their rug. You tried to remain loving and open.

Nicole: Right, and you'll not have the mountain under your rug for the first time in your life. We're all children of somebody, and our parents aren't perfect. We've all swept things under the rug in our childhood. When you have somebody that talks to you about your problems, even the problems you had in your childhood, you get to finally sweep all that out from under the rug and sit on the rug without a mountain of crap underneath it and really feel at peace.

John: This is why people jump from person to person too, in relationship to relationship. When you first meet someone and you're all in love, it's because there's nothing under the rug. That's why the honeymoon phase disappears. It's not just biology; it's because there's stuff under the rug. That's what happens because you go and meet someone new and you're in love again until you get more stuff under the rug. If you don't learn to do this, you're going to keep on suffering because you're going to keep on wanting to reset.

Nicole: And the faster you deal with it, the less stinky it will be. If you let six months sit on a thing and now you bring it up, it's also going to feel like a violation to the other person. They're going to be way more defensive. It's still better late than never, but you can't tolerate...

John: Don't tolerate, conflagrate. No, well, while you think about that, let me talk about what I want in my brain before it goes away.

John: The thing is, you can have peace in your relationship by tolerating. You think it's peace, you think you have patience, but it's not. The only time you can have true peace in your relationship is when you have peace within yourself. So, if something's still bothering you, even though you're avoiding it to keep the peace, you don't have peace because it's still eating away at you. It's still under your rug. Like, there is no peace. You think, okay, yeah, I don't have not peace with her or him, like this part's okay, yeah. But you know that it's still bothering you. And even if you've suppressed it, everybody who suppressed something, and everybody suppressed something, knows that that doesn't stay down there for long. Something causes it to come out.

Nicole: Yeah, and so, in order to do that, though, it's like you said, you have to talk about the things that are really bothering you. And the more you communicate, the easier it becomes to communicate. And even if, in the beginning, you're like, we can't communicate, we can't see eye to eye, we're being defensive, like this just goes around in circles. We've been there. I mean, we don't yell, we don't name-call in our arguments or anything like that, but we've been there. And we're also here to tell you that it does get easier. It does become your new normal. You have to want to communicate better. And to maintain that, you know, clean rug with nothing underneath it, you do have to want that. But the second that you go to bed, that's why they say don't go to bed angry, right? Really, they should say don't go to bed with stuff under your rug, because anger, whatever, like sadness, you shouldn't really go to bed with any of it, of those negative emotions. And so, the second though, go to bed with the on your face with a what a pie, John, the second that you go to bed for like the first time having fully resolved something, that's when you will feel the peace. That's when you'll be like, oh, this is what they mean by don't go to bed angry.

John: Exactly, yeah. And that's, and you know, and like we've had the eight-hour discussions and whatnot, and we've, the reason why it's easier now is because we went through those. We did the work there, and we resolved some of the things that were between us that were somewhat under the rug, and also some of the things that weren't between us that were somewhat under the rug that were carrying trauma from the past. But we worked through it together, even though it felt like it was between us, you know what I'm saying? And but that's still important. It still resolved a lot of things where now it's like clearing that stuff out. So now it's easier. And I think it's also the stuff under the rug, you know, where that rug is located. It's located here at the bottom of your heart, the bottom, the bottom of your heart. And it blocks the love from flowing. And so, the more of that stuff that you clear out, even if it's from your past or your current relationship, the more that you're able to show up and emanate love and give love. But it will block you and block your ability to give love and to receive love if you have that stuff there. And so, because you have all that negative emotion in there.

Nicole: Yeah, and so, you've got to do that. That's doing the work. 'Cause you know, it's like I said, it's easy. Most people think that they're doing the right thing when they're no longer allowing the things to upset them, or they're no longer, which, it's good that you have a higher ability to not be affected emotionally by your environment and people. That's a good thing in itself. But when you're suppressing it, then it's bad. That's where you think you're doing a good service. You think you're being the bigger person, but what you're doing is you're destroying the relationship, and you don't even realize it because you're creating that bitterness. And not only that, it's like, it's not only does it create the bitterness in your own heart from that stuff that's under the rug, but everyone knows when you got a problem with them. They can feel it. Energy, they can feel it 'cause you are withholding some love 'cause that love is being blocked. They can feel that there's something different. And so, they're feeling that too, and that's creating, that's building up for them as well. 'Cause now they're feeling isolated or hurt or, you know, so you just got to bite the bullet.

John: Punished, yeah, like you're taking love away from them. But I want to say that this is what people say when they say that marriage is hard work.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. This is it. It's not hard to be married. It's not hard to be in love. It's hard to deal with the negative emotions. It's hard to deal with communicating when you're hurt, or you're angry, or whatever it is. That stuff's hard. But being married, being in love, being with the person that you want to spend the rest of your life with is not hard. People get confused, and they try to explain like why people say marriage is hard, but it's hard because you have to face a lot of the stuff you've shoved under the rug, like in the past too, like you said. Like it brings up a lot of things. You have to heal parts that you thought were fine or were already healed more than you think, that like you have to fully heal those. And you have to learn to communicate regardless of how the other person's acting and really get to the bottom of the problem.

John: Yeah, like it's work that, like we've been talking about, that the more that you put in the work, the more that you have the hard conversations, the more that you don't let anything get swept under the rug, the easier it becomes.

Nicole: Exactly. And then your hard work in your marriage becomes dealing with the outside forces that you can't control, really. But you will then have cultivated such a good relationship and good communication with your partner that you guys can handle whatever outside things come your way. Let's talk a little bit about how to do it, in terms of because many times the fear is of breaking the peace, the fear of conflict. And to some degree, it's unavoidable because even if you say things in the nicest way possible, when you're saying something that upsets you, many times a person will feel personally attacked because it's them that has hurt you or harmed you in some way. And you're telling them that, and you have to communicate that. And you have to be okay with that and sit with that. And that has to be, but it definitely helps if you do word it in the right way, and you say, "When this happened, I felt this way about this thing," or "This thing bothered me," or "The way things happened, this upset me," not "You, you, you always do this, and you never do this for me."

John: A lot of times, if you're able to deal with things quicker, you can use better language because it hasn't become as emotionally charged. But if you wait for six months to talk about something, it's going to be really hard to hold those floodgates back. You're going to be much more likely to just dump. There's more dirt under the rug to dump.

Nicole: Yeah, and so I think choosing the language to make sure that you're not saying "you" and not attacking. Language to even say, you know, "This is sharing your experience." That's the better thing. And to know, you can't walk too much on eggshells. You got to say, you know, "And this hurt me," or "This made me feel this way," or "I didn't feel respected." You know, that's your experience. It's not a judgment of the other person and what their motives are. I think where someone gets more defensive is when you start to judge their motives, right? Or ask them, "Why did they do this?" Where you're saying, if you're just sharing your experience. But again, because a lot of people are going to be like, "Well, that's what I do. I share my experience," and then she gets upset anyway, or he gets upset anyway. And that is going to happen because we're humans. And if you haven't done this a lot, you know, it takes two people to grow. They both have to grow. But you have to be okay with that, knowing that you may get a negative reaction from it, but you keep on having the conversation. That's where it kind of ties back to what we said at the beginning: Can you now keep your heart open in love, even if the other person's responding to you trying to communicate to them of something that's harmed you in a negative way? Because if you can do that and hold that space and continue to show up in love, you will get through to them. That's the best way to get through to them, rather than saying, "Oh, you never listen to me," or "I knew you were going to react like that." These are the things that are going to put you in the not doing the work direction, or they're going to delay making that a very long path to getting there.

John: So, I think on the one side, presenting things that way from your perspective, and then on the other side, when someone does bring something up, you got to be aware that you might not agree. Well, I have a good example that I talked to one of my friends about too, but actually, this is like another level. It's very easy for men and women to get defensive, like in the story in the last episode where, you know, I kind of got defensive watching your video because it made me feel like you were saying I was ruining your life. And you know what I should have done differently is kind of removed my ego because that's really what makes you defensive. And a good way to do that, and I am going to word this in a way because I'm not saying to do this to absolve any responsibility, right? But when the person you care about is coming to you, imagine someone else hurt them in the way that they're telling you. Oh yeah, that's good. Like someone else hurt them, right? That will help you empathize with them and put yourself more in their shoes immediately, right? Than if you're like, "I did this and I hurt them," and they're saying, "I did all these things," especially if you don't agree. But if you're viewing it as someone else did it to them, right, you're obviously going to be like, "That's horrible." Like, you know, you have a more immediate response of empathy rather than defensiveness. Then, once you've really empathized with them, then it almost will help you even reflect because now you've just given them the validation of, "This was hurtful." You know, and you do believe that because you can kind of see it from a different angle. And now you can be like, "I'm not going to do this. Like, I'm sorry that this hurt you." It kind of, in my mind, granted, it's hard to do this in the moment because a lot of emotions are going on, but you can cut straight to putting yourself in their shoes without feeling attacked, right? And then also, after you've done that, you've already put those words out there, and it'll help you reflect on, "Okay, I don't want my partner to feel this way, right? Like, I wouldn't want someone else to do this to my partner. Why am I doing this to them?" Or like, you know, "What can I do differently?" Or like, even if this isn't wrong, like in my mind, or you know what I mean, like I didn't do something wrong, "What can I do differently, though, to maybe have them understand better or not hurt them in the residual of my decision?" You know what I mean? Like, it just seems like it's an easier way for everybody to kind of cut the defensiveness out.

Nicole: Yeah, that's great. That's brilliant.

John: Yeah, did you come up with that?

Nicole: Yeah, just now. And I didn't want to forget it. I forgot to get our notebooks.

John: No, that's a great formula for because I had told a friend before, like not to take it personally, which is like hard to just say, "Just don't take it personally." But I told her something along the lines of like, you know, "Pretend it wasn't you," or something, or "Pretend they're just talking to you that someone hurt them," or whatever, you know, just to kind of get her out of that mindset because she also was like, "I get defensive, right? Like, that's a problem." So, it's like, it's not just a lot of men and women have this problem, right?

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, obviously, I have to practice my own stuff because I didn't think about it until just now. And you know, I still make mistakes because I'm human. And I did it earlier to you, you know, where I was like watching your video, and I was like, "Damn, I just ruined his life." That's all I can like hear in this, you know, like I heard the other parts, but I'm like, "I really lost his life," or like, "I ruined his life." So, you know, I'm not saying I'm perfect at this either, but that's great, you know. It's kind of like what you tell people when they're in a bad relationship or something, like, "What would you tell your friend to do?" Exactly, right?

John: Yeah, but it's similar. And that's the formula for empathy right there, is to imagine that someone else did to them because that makes you put yourself in their place. In order to do that exercise, you have to actually exercise empathy, right? It's hard to do it when it's when you're the perpetrator, right? But when you imagine someone, even if it's not something you did wrong, but it's just, "Oh," then you can see it, even if you say someone else did this to them, then you can see, "Oh, they're misunderstanding what's going on. They're hurt by this, but it's because they're misunderstanding," which is also empathetic. Then you can understand that their misunderstanding makes them feel bad, which is fine. Then you're in an empathetic state. I love that. That's a great hack.

Nicole: So yeah, brilliant. Like and subscribe for more hacks. But yeah, and that.

John: That's exactly it. How that's the best way to respond when someone brings up something, whether they bring it up in the right way or the wrong way. Make sure that you handle it the right way because sometimes different levels of emotional maturity, different levels of upset, of a big thing that they're finally bringing to the surface that they have a very high degree of emotional charge behind. Have a little bit of grace to say, okay, they didn't present it in the best way possible. We can address that a little bit later. Right now, let me focus on them, let me respond with empathy, and understand where they're coming from.

Nicole: And what you've said before, and also when we were with people this past week, not assuming malicious intent. Like, if someone's being malicious, it's usually not the person that you're married to or decide to spend the rest of your life with. It's easy to go to, "Oh no, they meant to do that," when you're emotionally charged. But also trying to be grounded in, "This person doesn't want to hurt me. They've shown me that in other ways. We're continuing to work through these things. They married me, they love me, they don't want to hurt me," is also another good thing to try to ground yourself to in those sorts of situations.

John: Yeah, good. Wow, I think we nailed it. This is good though. I think this is an important topic. A couple of synchronicities brought us to it, as different people in our lives have struggled with some of these things and realized that it's a huge thing of how to actually do the work, is actually having conflict and facing the conflict quickly rather than tolerating. Tolerating is the death of a relationship.

Nicole: Well, and not everybody, I've said this before, I don't know if on the podcast, but I'm very fortunate that you have a secure attachment type. It takes a secure attachment type to help the other ones get out of that. I'm very fortunate that you've always been secure and you've always known a lot of this stuff and taught me a lot of this stuff. We've learned a lot together, and that's why we've started this podcast. But a lot of people don't have a secure attachment to really ground them to a lot of what we're talking about, but they can still get there. It's just going to be a little bit harder for them. But if you implement the things that we're talking about, you can become the secure attachment, and you can help create that secure attachment within your relationship. It is possible. And then don't give up. You got to keep on going, even if it means you're having long talks every single day until it clicks.

John: Yeah, you got to do it. That's the work. It's not comfortable, it's not fun. It's not fun to pay the parking bill when you've been in the parking garage for eight hours, you know? But you do it. You got to do it. It's not fun to miss the dinner you're supposed to go to or whatever the event, or like show up at a friend's house crying. You got to do it. That's the work. You got to have the conversation. This is the priority. However many times it takes, you're tired of it, they're still not getting it, it doesn't matter. Keep on communicating, keep on going because the alternative is just a slow death. And being miserable. Maybe this is going to kill the relationship. Kill it now then. Blow it up rather than have a slow death. You know what I mean? It's probably not because if you really are committed to resolving issues and you both are, even if you have to bang your heads against each other for a while, you're eventually going to get there. But people give up and they're like, "It's not worth it anymore." If it's not worth it anymore, then the relationship's not worth it anymore. So make that decision. Don't make the decision that I'm just going to start tolerating stuff because you're going to make yourself miserable, you're going to make them miserable, and you're never going to resolve it if you don't make that choice.

Nicole: Yeah, and you will see little improvements, even if it's not totally improved. The small improvements. And I mean, I think there's something to say that this world of instant gratification is also causing people to just be like, "I'm not dealing with this," and leaving so quickly. But you can't build something beautiful and meaningful in that sort of way. Beautiful things are built. Do the work, like you said. Build a beautiful relationship because that's what you're doing. Maybe don't look at it as work as in you're building something better than you've ever known before. Because that's what you are building when you do the hard things and you suffer the consequences of having the 8-hour long conversation. You're building something beautiful. It might seem like it sucks because your consequences are pretty crappy at the moment, but eventually, you won't have any of those sorts of feelings once you get to that point. And even if someone makes a mistake, it doesn't feel like it did in the beginning. So keep going.

John: Exactly, because it gets better. And like I said, we have proven it ourselves. As we just, if people watch the whole season of this is like episode 60 something.

Nicole: Yeah, I think 63 or something. But we've progressed a lot from a place where we already thought was probably, honestly, not trying to toot our own horn, but better than 95% of people in a relationship already before we started this process. And you can see the massive amount of growth that we've had at that time because we've been committed to doing the work. And again, now we know what doing the work is. It's hashing it out over and over as much as you need to until you get through it, get it resolved.

John: That's true.

Nicole: I like this episode. I think it's good. It's because it's your topic. I'm just kidding. It's good though because it's something that just finally connected as what it is. A lot of people use that word, doing the work, use that phrase, but they don't know what it actually means.

John: That's true. Or they're like, "I don't want to do the work." It sounds like a lot.

Nicole: It is a lot, but you get the benefits.

John: And you won't want to do anything but do the work. Like, the second that you choose to not sweep something under the rug and you fully resolve it, you will be like, "Wow, this is way better than going to bed still pissed off," or constantly having this thing that pisses me off under the rug and I have to pretend like I don't care. Like, you'll know that it is different and that will also keep you going, even if you're like, "I'm going to have to have an 8-hour conversation about something," or "They're still not going to get it," or "We're going to go around in circles." It'll still be worth it to finally resolve it because you got that first glimpse of like, "Wow, there's nothing under my rug right now. This is crazy. Feels so much better." And then you'll just keep going. Yeah, and you can sleep the next day. It's like, you know, we've been there, like, "Oh, it's 3 in the morning, but hey, it's got to happen."

Nicole: And I would say one last thing, which is to men, which is take the lead on this. Just be committed to be like, "No, we're not. I'm not. We're, if I have an issue, we're going to talk about it. If you have an issue, I'm going to figure out what it is. We're going to talk. We're not going to. You're not going to go solve this on your own. You're not going to. I'm not going to just ignore this thing. Like, we're going to do this right. You got to do it the right way, but you got to be like, 'No, we're committed to this. Like, this is not. I'm not going to let this drop. I'm not going to let you drop.' Right? I'm going to do that." And so, I think, as a man, if you can step up and lead in that way, it's powerful, and you're going to make changes in the relationship. And again, just to circle it right back to that tragic situation we talked about with that video, that sucks, but also it could have been handled differently. Right? I, even on the hindsight, like I'm saying, is like, he could have said, "Okay, no, no, I'm not going to. No, I'm not just going to say, 'Okay, fine, I'm not talking to you anymore.' Like, I'm see. Right?" He can say, "Wow, that hurt, but I'm committed to like, I need to understand why you acted that way. Like, let's talk about this. Let's, you know, does it not matter if I say something that, like, you know, if I share something with you? Like, I want to be in a place where we can do this, where this, you know, and being persistent in making sure that that actually gets resolved because there's something going on there. Right? Why is she acting that way? You know, what is going on? Like, yeah, you know, figure out also, is it like just for views too? Like, and let's say it's not, maybe, but either way, it highlights a real thing."

John: Exactly. Yeah, no, you're right. It's like someone has to do the first step towards being better. Right? Like, someone does. And like you said, when a man's a leader, it makes sense that he is, but also, women watching this, like, you can step up. You know, there's been plenty of times where, like, you've stormed out, and I've had to be like, "Look, I'm coming to you. Like, I want to fix this." You know? And normally, you're the one that's like, "No, let's fix this." So, like, nobody's perfect. And sometimes, you have to be the one that extends the olive branch or gets things going, you know? Because that's like, you love each other. You want to fix the problem. That's what it is. And that's also too why people are like, "You got to view it as a team." Like, which is hard for maybe people to understand, but the team is like, you guys want to resolve this. You want to be better. You want to not be at odds with each other. You want to not have anything under your rug. Right? That's the team. Like, let's figure this out so we don't have anything under our rug, so we just love each other, and that's all we have to focus on. We don't have to focus on all these other things we're hiding. Right? You know. Yeah, it's not noble to suck it up if she feels like it is. It's not. It's noble to say, "I don't want to feel bad about you. Right? I need to resolve this." Like, I could suck it up. I would take one for the team, but this isn't taking one for the team. Like, if my heart is not right with you and your heart's not right with me, then I'm doing you a disservice. And so, even though I don't want to talk about this, even though this is going to be painful or result in a fight, I'm going to do it because I care about our relationship.

Nicole: Right. And that's the way to do it. So, well, one last little thing, since we don't have an end segment, this is going to be the end segment. Women have to learn to let things go. Have to be able to fully talk about them, and that's where a man comes in, and he has to let her fully talk about the things. But you have to let them go because the thing is that you and I alone have been through things that were really hard for me to let go. Right? And there have been times too where you were like, "Just let it go," and that wasn't like the right way, you know? But it was the right thing, but it wasn't handled in the right way. And but you have allowed me to like talk about it and really get out all my emotions about this, like, thing that we had gone through. Yeah, and so I was able to let it go because the old me is like, I would not have let it go, like, no matter how much we talked about it and no matter what. Like, I would have had to hold on to it because that's, you know, something that I have to use when you hurt me. I could bring it up, and like, I don't ever want to weaponize things against you. And a lot of women can do that, and I get it. And I think in a majority of the cases, they've probably not been given the space to really talk about it, so they really can't let it go because they haven't fully processed it, and they've had to sweep it under the rug because the guy's like, "Oh, you know, like, you need to get over that," or "You said you were fine, and so act like it," or, you know, what I mean? But the thing is, a woman needs to be able to fully express it, but then you do have to let it go. Yeah, you really do. And like, even, you know, at one point when we were going through what we were going through, my dad texted me and was like, "You have to actually let it go." You know? And so, you've also taught me to not sweep things under the rug but to also let the things go. And you do have to let it go. You don't want to hold on to those things, and you don't want to weaponize them against the person that you love and that you're working towards having a better relationship with. Like, you have.

John: To full, but that's why if you fully resolve them, yeah, then you fully get everything out. It's easy to let it go. You don't want to keep that garbage under your rug, right? And that's where you've got to even sometimes come forth and be like, "I need to resolve this thing. I need to because, in fact, that's what's going to be my next episode. It's going to be forgiveness. What does it really mean?" Because, man, I have dealt with this with a lot of coaching clients, a lot of people not understanding that forgiveness, the definition of forgiveness, just a kind of sneak preview of this, means to completely wipe away the debt like it was never there, like it never happened. That's what forgiveness truly means. It means forgotten. It means it didn't exist.

John: It didn't happen. That's what true forgiveness looks like, and most people don't practice true forgiveness because it's hard, right? But true forgiveness means like it's, it's you don't even count it as a loss. It's like it never occurred. But I think you need the proper, like I said, you need the proper discussion and dealing with it in order to be able to do that. And I don't think people learn how to do that, you know what I mean?

Nicole: Yes, there are people who could be like, "No, I am forgiving you," and people who can do that usually it's for themselves. Like they're like, "I'm forgiving you so I don't have to carry this burden anymore," which I'm sure we'll get into. But if it's like someone you see all the time, you have to fully trick situation dive, like dive into it and heal it to really let it go and to be able to forgive because otherwise, you'll just keep it under your rug, right? You have whatever is still there. You have to keep on bringing up until you have fully, but yeah, that's we'll save that for the episode. We're already run over, but alright, follow us, like us, subscribe, join our community.

John: Yeah, join our community, you know, leave a review on Apple iTunes or whatever you want to do, anywhere you want to put a review, share with, yeah, but leave a comment. Yeah, let's build a community here. Leave a comment. What do you do? Do you agree, disagree? What's the biggest takeaway you got from this episode, right? Do you like our shirts, our clothes, you know, whatever you got, anything. Alright, we love you guys, and we'll see you next week. We find a way.