John [00:00:00]: You literally don't owe anybody in this life shit. The obligations that you actually do have are if you have a child, you can't be like, oh, I don't have any obligations. No, you do, because you. You created that obligation. If you get married and you sign a marriage agreement, you have an obligation to your spouse. No matter how great your parents were, no matter how much stuff they did to you, did for you growing up, you have no obligation to your parents, your friends. You don't have any obligation to them. And I think this is such an important thing to understand, to be free in life. And it doesn't mean that you're a jerk or you don't have to be a mean person. But we falsely that we owe people things, that if someone does something for us, that we have to do something in return. You owe nothing beyond the perfect. We discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:04]: That's right. And we're back.

John [00:01:06]: We're back.

Nicole [00:01:08]: Back again.

John [00:01:09]: Yeah. We don't have any real drama, do we? Anything going on.

Nicole [00:01:14]: Let's not create any.

John [00:01:17]: We had some. Some child. Some child parenting drama, but. But nothing that. That we couldn't. Can handle and nothing we really want to talk about on the podcast. The protection of the people involved, I guess. But. Yeah, but.

Nicole [00:01:31]: But, yeah, but it's just learning experiences and kind of like we talked about in the last episode, like, looking at the challenges in a positive way and telling yourself the story to make it a good thing rather than a bad thing that keeps you kind of like down and out. So.

John [00:01:49]: Yeah, but, yeah, and then I. Trying to think what else? Really? Yeah, I mean, we haven't had. We haven't had very many comments and stuff, so.

Nicole [00:01:58]: So comment away.

John [00:01:59]: Yeah, comment away. Even if you disagree. That's cool. Yeah, I guess we'll just jump right into the episode then. So this one is on. What do we say?

Nicole [00:02:09]: Basically, like obligations in a relationship that, like, your friends or your family.

John [00:02:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:15]: You feel like they put on you or on you as a couple or there's a bunch of different ways.

John [00:02:23]: Yeah, let's see. So, yeah, I mean, I mean, we can start off with the one that we were just talking about, which is of like a wedding. Right. So, yeah, you've got. Because we went through this situation where it's. Well, I mean, I think there's multiple aspects to this. Right. So you've got the parents who want the wedding done a certain way, or expect that you're going to get married in a church, or you're going to have this pastor, or you're gonna do this thing. And then you've got, like, the.

Nicole [00:02:54]: I. When I used to sell wedding dresses, the moms that would, like, put their two cents in on the wedding dress. And it's like, ma', am, this is not your. This is not your wedding day.

John [00:03:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:04]: Like, you gotta let her pick what she wants.

John [00:03:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:07]: So it kind of ties, though, into like, a parent being like, you have to do this. And one of my friends who got married, her parents were like that. They. And two, it's complicated when your parents are paying for the wedding. Right? Yeah. Because then you feel obligated as well, because you're like, well, they're paying for it, so I have to do what they're wanting me to do. But it's your wedding day.

John [00:03:30]: Yeah. So.

Nicole [00:03:31]: So that's like a slippery slope.

John [00:03:33]: Well, I think it's. It's. So if someone's paying for it, I think the. The clear thing to ask is, are you. Are you hosting the wedding?

Nicole [00:03:45]: Right.

John [00:03:46]: As a ceremony, are you gifting? Right. Yeah, that's exactly the question. Because you just need to clear that up front. Clarify that up front. Because if your parents are saying, yeah, we're hosting a wedding for you, we're paying for. We're creating the celebration to celebrate your marriage. Right. And that's what we're doing.

Nicole [00:04:06]: Right.

John [00:04:07]: Then that's a totally different thing than we're gonna pay for your wedding. Your wedding for you.

Nicole [00:04:12]: Yeah.

John [00:04:13]: Right. In most cases, it should be the second one because not, you know, unless you're. I think in the olden times, it was more of. And maybe in some cultures, it's like, I'm hosting this event because my children are getting married or my child's getting married. And this is about me hosting the event as a gracious host to people. I think that's more of an older thing, but today, the way it's supposed to be intended usually is if a parent's paying for it is, I'm gifting this to you.

Nicole [00:04:43]: Right.

John [00:04:44]: But then again, it's like, ultimately you've got to decide that if it is a gift, you get to choose how you want it, and they might not like it, and that's okay because it's your wedding and it should be between the two of you. And deciding how do you want that or you don't take the money, or you say, okay, we're gonna do it our way because we don't wanna feel the obligation or the pressure of this and not have to owe you something. Like, if you're giving this to me as a gift, then I can do what I want with it as a gift. If you're not giving it to me as a gift, it has obligations and strings attached. Then I can either take those obligations and strings knowing that I'm doing it, or I can tell you to kick rocks and I'm gonna pay for it myself. Yeah, that's it.

Nicole [00:05:32]: Then you also get into, like, if your parents want to invite people.

John [00:05:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:41]: Like, they want to invite specific people that they have in mind, which, like, my mom wanted to invite a few people who I knew these people also. And, like, they had been a part of my life in some way when I was younger and whatnot. So it wasn't really that big of a deal. But also, it can get more complicated when the parent wants to invite a lot of people. And if you've ever been married, you know how expensive weddings are and you pay per person. So, you know, if your parent is trying to. Or multiple parents are trying to add more and more people that they want, and sometimes it's people you don't even know, right?

John [00:06:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:21]: And then you have to be like, no to your parents, which probably isn't gonna go over very well. But at the same time, you need to stand up, like you said, for what you want. Unless they're hosting it. Then I guess they can invite whoever they want. But, you know, it's a delicate balance because having been there when we got married and things like that, you want people to have a good time and you want, like, everyone to be happy and, you know, the family is to be in a good mood and no drama. And that's like, what everybody wants for their wedding day. But it's. It's a lot more complicated than people think that it is. Because even if you don't have your parents trying to plan specific things about your wedding or your wedding dress or what you're going to wear, things like that, there's. There's just a lot of people involved, and that can get kind of messy. And there definitely becomes these obligations or you feel like there's these obligations or expectations that are being put on you, especially as the bride and the groom, and you're already dealing with all the stress of planning this thing, right? Like, planning this day. And then now you're adding more Things that maybe you necessarily don't want, or you're like, okay, I do want it. But then, like, budget. Like, there's so many different.

John [00:07:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:45]: Intricacies of getting married, and there's so many hands in the pot a lot of the time, even if, like, you don't have people paying for your wedding or, you know, things like that. Like, I think just as humans, we want to also make the people that we care about happy, right? And so even, like I said when I would work at the wedding dress place and a mom would be like, I don't like that one. But a bride's like, I love this one. It's like, I would have to be in there in the dressing room with her doing damage control. I'm like, okay, we'll handle your mom. Like, is this the one that you want? For sure. Like, you know, and you have to eventually kind of be like, hey, Mom. Like, this is. She loves this one. Like, this is. This is her day, right? You know, and kind of like, get it back on track.

John [00:08:30]: Yeah. Drink some more champagne for one way or another.

Nicole [00:08:33]: No, sometimes you don't want them to. That might go opposite way, but it's. Sometimes someone has to be the person there to be like, no, this is how it's gonna go. I understand that. Like, this isn't what you would expect. Cause I also had a bride who bought a black wedding dress, and her mom was like, not for it, you know, and she was just like, mom, this is what I'm doing. Like, luckily for her, she was the person, you know, who could stand up and be like, this is what I'm doing. Like, I love you, but this is what's happening.

John [00:09:06]: And that's how you should be. Like, you should be that. And it's good practice, right? Because the wedding is the beginning of this situation that you're going to have. If you can't stand up to your parents and tell them what you. You know, then they're going to be interfering in your life, in your relationship. And that happens a lot. And it destroys a lot of marriages and relationships because you have to put your spouse first, right? And then. And the relationship first. Those have to be first. And so you can't have a sense of obligation to other people because they're not involved in this, right?

Nicole [00:09:37]: It's like, they're not your immediate family now, like your core family unit.

John [00:09:42]: When. When I used to do software development on. On teams, we'd have this thing called Scrum, right? Which is kind of an agile methodology, which is A way of developing software. And in the idea of scrum, there would be the. You would have a pig, right? Like you're making breakfast, right? And you've got. You've got a pig and you got a chicken.

Nicole [00:10:04]: You're losing me.

John [00:10:05]: Okay, Right. Let's say that you're in like that you're.

Nicole [00:10:08]: I'm stuck on scrum.

John [00:10:10]: Okay, well, this is what it's called.

Nicole [00:10:11]: This is very interesting.

John [00:10:13]: It comes from like the rugby scrum. They would.

Nicole [00:10:16]: It's. It just reminds me of Harry Potter for some reason.

John [00:10:21]: But, but in the process of making breakfast, you would have this analogy of you've got a chicken and you've got a pig, right? And they both contribute to breakfast, right? The chicken lays the egg. The pig is ass is on the line, so the pig contributes more. So the pig has higher stakes in this thing. And so it's like all these people that are outside of your relationship, they're chickens, they're laying eggs, okay? But you, in the relationship, you're the pigs. Your ass is on the line.

Nicole [00:10:51]: This is your wedding day.

John [00:10:52]: Who gets to have a say? The chicken. Chicken doesn't get to have a say. The chicken is not the one who's putting their ass on the line. The pig gets to have a say because the pig is the one that's getting literally their asses becoming breakfast. Right? So, yeah, so that's the thing is to understand that, that in the relationship, you're the one that's going to be in the relationship. You're the one that's going to potentially have the divorce. You're the one who's going to be, you know, it's going to be your life and it's going to be your children, right? And so you have to. Even though you love all these other people and you care about your family and you care about your friends, their opinions don't matter. You have to be protecting the relationship, your spouse, the relationship itself. Those things come first. And you just have to learn to do that. Otherwise they're going to interfere with your relationship and they're going to destroy it and they're going to sabotage it. They're not meaning to, but, you know, especially we. We did an episode where we talked about, about, you know, standing up for your spouse against family members and taking their side always. Yeah, you're gonna have to do that, otherwise you're gonna be in trouble. Because parents do like to get their hands in there and you know, and.

Nicole [00:12:07]: Into your relationship because they've, you know, helped you grow up for A decent chunk of your life, you know, and your formative years.

John [00:12:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:16]: So, you know, I get it. But I definitely agree with you that eventually you have to break out of that because you're forming your new, like, family unit. And that's not to say that they don't matter anymore and you don't care about them or you won't see them or whatever.

John [00:12:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:40]: But that is now your main, like, core family at that point is the family that you're creating. Like, you're becoming one with somebody. And your wedding day is a big deal.

John [00:12:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:53]: You usually only get one. Some people have more than one. But even then, it's still the one day with the person that you're with. So even if you get married more than once, like, it's your day to honor the love and commitment that you are about to embark on and the family that you're building literally that day. So it should be how you want it to be. And it's definitely hard to have to make some of the hard choices and like, telling people no and, you know, or having a boundary. Like at our wedding, you know, we didn't have young kids at the wedding.

John [00:13:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:29]: And so there were some of my family members that didn't chose not to come because some of their kids couldn't come. And I respect that. That, Like, I don't. I'm not upset with them. Like, you know, would I have wanted them there? Yes. But I also understand that I wanted to not have young children running around at the wedding.

John [00:13:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:49]: And so. And that was the wedding day. So.

John [00:13:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:52]: You know, I had to make the hard choice. And I love kids, but it's like sometimes for some things that you want it to be a certain way, and sometimes you have to make those hard choices. And it's like people might get upset with you and it might hurt their feelings, but if you just continue to show them that you care about them, that it's not a personal thing, that, you know, you really want them to come. But this is how you envision your wedding day. And, you know, maybe you can all get together for a different sort of occasion and, you know, have that moment. Like, there are a lot of other options. But I get that it's scary and it's hard to do.

John [00:14:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:31]: But ultimately, if it's a big deal, like your wedding day, it is something that you should face rather than, you know, kind of just trying to appease everybody. And I have been a people pleaser at times. I still have people pleasing tendencies. So I definitely Understand that that urge can be there. You're like, I don't want to, like, upset anybody. I just want it to be everyone to be happy. I just want things to go well. But I think with something big, like a wedding or some other big sort of life event thing where you have to kind of be like, well, what do we want? Like, because this is our day, that it does kind of make it easier to make the hard choices. Because it's like as a people pleaser, it's like the one day that you get to put yourself first. Right. And you can kind of like try to focus on what you want for your day, even though. But if it should be like that in general. But I'm saying that if you feel like you want to please everybody, you need to kind of reframe it and be like, this is your one wedding day.

John [00:15:38]: Well.

Nicole [00:15:39]: And it should be what you really want.

John [00:15:40]: Yeah. And it should be at the beginning of the end of that, like, now you have someone else. Because when you're a people pleaser by yourself, you're only hurting yourself. When you're a people pleaser and you have a spouse now you're hurting your spouse. Because what happens is then you end up prioritizing other people's feelings over your spouse because you don't want to let people down, you don't want to hurt people's feelings.

Nicole [00:16:04]: But I think we're essentially saying the same thing. Because I think if you do end up standing up for yourself and like, having those boundaries in a kind way, then you're more likely to continue that you're not going to, like, go back to being just, you know, trying to please everybody. So I do think it is a good time to actually practice, like you said, doing those things for yourself, you know, having to have those hard conversations and not trying to appease everybody to your own, like, resentment or the things that you don't want to actually happen.

John [00:16:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:37]: So that you can continue that moving forward. Cause I agree with you. Like, at that point, it doesn't affect just you. It affects your personal partner. It affects your family unit, your new family unit that you're coming to have.

John [00:16:52]: And I think these things happen. It's just. It's not even. I mean, we're using the wedding case, but it's throughout your relationship and your life, a lot of things that friends. There's a lot of people that put obligations on you or you feel obligated to. And I mean, this is just good life advice in general is to not allow people to Put expectations on you. Not to put expectations on people, but. But even so, more important in the relationship, because once you're in the relationship, you've got to make your own choices because there's so many people that live their lives for others or they're going to events that they don't want to go to, even to other people's weddings that they don't want to go to, or maintaining friendships that no longer serve them because they don't want to hurt people's feelings or let them down. And it's like you can't do that because you're sacrificing your relationship. When you do that, you have to be willing to. You don't have to be mean to people.

Nicole [00:17:48]: Right.

John [00:17:48]: But you have to be honest. Yeah. And just say no. Yeah, I'm not going to do that a lot of times, even with the parent situation, to say, oh, I appreciate your opinion on this. However, I'm not going to do that. Right. And that's it. You don't need to get into argument. You don't need to justify your position. You have autonomy over your life and, you know, you and your partner do. Of your relationship. Yeah, but. But I think that circumstance comes up a lot and I think it destroys a lot of relationships because sometimes we can let these obligations that we think that we have take precedence over the things that are the healthy things for a relationship.

Nicole [00:18:29]: Yeah. That's like one of my friends from Florida, she was planning like a trip for her birthday, which is coming up, and she asked me if I wanted to go, but it was like, she's single and it would have been just me. And like, we don't do like the trips. You know, you and I have agreed that we don't do trips, like, without one of one another sort of thing. So I had to tell her no. And she was really bummed and like, she didn't fully get it at first.

John [00:18:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:59]: But I had to stop, stand on that because that's, you know, a boundary and, you know, a principle that you and I have that we're not going to do that. So even in instances like that, which I feel bad, like it's her birthday and would I love to go on a trip with her. Yeah. But it's just not like I met her when I was single and I probably would have gone if I was still in that state, but I'm in a different place and like, you know, a different time in my life. And you're my, you know, main focus. You and Sophia are my main Focus. And so I have to honor those things first.

John [00:19:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:38]: And even though I care about. And I can still care about her, and I still love her and I want her to have the best time and, like, you know, all of that, but I just can't be the friend at this point in my life to actually go on the trip with her because it's just not something that is in the values that I have at this point and where I'm at in my life.

John [00:19:59]: And I think that's a great example because I think a lot of people would feel pressured in that situation. And then they would do it because they would say, well, I can't. I can't. I have to do this because I can't let my friend down. It's her birthday. It would be rude of me, whatever. And they'll make that justification, perhaps to their spouse. And then it's a slippery slope, because now you're putting. Even though it might seem like an innocent thing to do something now you're putting an external source, the chicken who doesn't have a part in the relationship. Their values are letting them down ahead of your relationship goals and your relationship principles and your spouse in that case. And that's not good. But a lot of people do do that. That is a system. Don't get me wrong.

Nicole [00:20:49]: I felt bad. I didn't want to hurt her feelings or make her feel like I don't care about her. Wouldn't want to go, like. But the reality is, like you said, I had to realize that you and I don't. We don't go on trips like that anymore. Like, if it was like a couple trip with other couples and we were able to make it. Sure. And even, you know, it's far away, so it's like, do we have the time to even go. It just becomes a lot of things that you have to consider when you come into a marriage.

John [00:21:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:22]: That you don't really consider as much when you're single. Like, you still can feel obligations from people in your life when you're single.

John [00:21:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:32]: But it is a lot different when you're in a relationship. And that's why the marriage is such a good thing. Right. Because it's kind of the first time in your relationship that you're really, like, focusing on what you guys are about to become, which is one person, like one family. Like, not to say that people don't focus on them collectively as a couple when they're in a relationship, but it's the wedding and, like, marriage.

John [00:21:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:58]: Where you're I feel like you're really realizing, like, this is about to be my number one person. Like they should have been already. But I can understand where, you know, you're not putting all your eggs in the basket until you walk down the aisle.

John [00:22:13]: Okay. Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:14]: But, you know, I feel like that's why the weddings is such a big deal, too. And that's when you're kind of still in that in between, where your family can kind of creep in and you're like, oh, like, you know, maybe I should let them invite, like, five people that I don't know. Like, you know, because you're still kind of in that in between. You know, that person hasn't become your wife or your husband yet. But at the wedding, when you're planning the wedding, yeah, you have the mindset of that's happening. And, like, this is. This is what it's going to be. And that's going to be my person. Like, that's going to be my family. And so, yeah, it's kind of the first time where you look at the. The talk from outside from, like, family and friends differently, where you do start to consider, okay, well, how. How's my spouse going to feel about this? Like, can we even afford to have five more people at the wedding? Like, is that gonna take away from some people that she really wants to invite? Or, like, how are we gonna figure this out together? And, like, what things do we need to say no to? Even though they might be hard.

John [00:23:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:21]: But we have to do this collectively, me and my fiance, or, you know. Cause we're about to become man and wife and, you know, be a family unit for the first time. And it's different than the family unit you were in before the friend group. Like, you're still gonna have your friends, but when you get married, too, your partner is your priority. And your family, if you have kids.

John [00:23:46]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the outside. I mean, you shouldn't let the outside obligations be affecting your life anyway, just as a single person. But it just becomes more so now because now you're affecting someone else also. And this one that you've become, and it really does cause problems. I have a coaching client of mine who he has. I think it was his wife's. His wife's sister's husband or something like that. It was some relative of his wife's that the guy would come and he would stay with them for like a couple months over the summer every year because he was doing a fishing trip or something. Right. And it got to the point where he Was really. They didn't want him there anymore, but they felt obligated.

Nicole [00:24:40]: Yeah.

John [00:24:41]: And I had to kind of give him the advice because he was like, I feel bad telling him that. That, you know, and he's not paying any rent and he's like, you know, just assuming that he's going to be there. We didn't even invite him back anymore, and he's assuming that. And I told him, I was like, you just have to say, be honest and just say. I just say no.

Nicole [00:25:02]: Which is scary. Like, I get it, it is.

John [00:25:04]: But it's such an inconvenience at the point that it was putting himself out and his wife out, even, you know, she didn't want him there. And it's. It's like you're living out of obligation and is causing harm to your life and to your relationship potentially for this other person that you just have this sense of obligation to. And it's like, you don't know. I mean, the big thing, because again, I tell my coaching clients this all the time, not even just regard to relationship, but just obligations in general. Because a lot of people have this with their parents is that. And I think this is just important to understand is that you literally don't owe anybody in this life shit. You don't owe them shit. Nothing. There is no obligation that you have as a human being to. That is not one that you have entered into. So. Meaning that the obligations that you actually do have are, if you have a child, you have an obligation because you created that obligation. You made a choice to have a child, so now you're obligated to take care of that child. You can't be like, oh, I don't have any obligations. No, you do, because you created that obligation. If you get married and you sign a marriage agreement, if you're entering into that vow, you have an obligation to your spouse because you've created. You've entered that into that. However, no matter how great your parents were, no matter how much stuff they did to you did for you growing up, you have no obligation to your parent at all. You don't owe them anything. You don't have to do anything for them. You know, you're living your own life. You have no obligation. Your friends, you don't have any obligation to them, even if they did stuff for you, Even if they. Unless they said, I'm going to do this for you and I expect this in return, it's not an obligation. Right. Because even if people are kind to you, even if they do stuff for you, it does not obligate you. And I think this is such an important thing to understand, to be free in life. And it doesn't mean that you're a jerk or you don't have to be a mean person. But we many times, and I know this because I've coached a lot of guys and I know the psychology of this is that we believe falsely that we owe people things, that we have to do, things that we're obligated, that if someone does something for us, that we have to do something in return. Unless there's an agreement, unless it's a contract, you've agreed to something, you owe nothing. You don't have to do anything. You don't owe anyone because you were born, you didn't choose to be born, you didn't make a contract with that. The only obligations you really have are ones that you've contractually entered into. So if you sign a business agreement and say you're going to do something, you're obligated. You make a promise, you're obligated. You have a child, you're obligated. Those are the only obligations, and that's it. And if you can understand that it's going to lead to some difficult conversations in life, but it will simplify your life and it will take a huge amount of stress off of you because you're not responsible for other people and making them happy. And it will definitely help your relationship because when one person still believes that they have all these obligations, they carry those obligations into the relationship and it starts to harm the relationship, because now this person is in servitude to all these outside things that have nothing to do with the relationship, have nothing to do with the other person. But now that other person is now saddled by these things that have come into it. So whatever you take into a relationship, it's not just about you. You're saddling the other person with those obligations as well. Just like if you come into a relationship, a marriage with debt, that's an obligation that you have. You get into a marriage now, that's a shared obligation. You've created that obligation for your spouse.

Nicole [00:28:44]: So, yeah, yeah. I think too, it stems from fear, if you get down to the depths of it, that people don't want to hurt people's feelings because the fear of them never wanting to talk to you again or something like that, especially people so close to you, like your family or your really good friends. So it's really hard to make those hard choices, like you said. And again, I Don't think people should hear what you said and just be jerks.

John [00:29:19]: Right?

Nicole [00:29:19]: So I think there is something valuable in being kind and caring about people. But I agree with you that you can't care more about people than you care about yourself. Because ultimately, and I'm not saying be selfish either, but I'm saying that if you're doing something that you don't really want to do, you're just gonna cause resentment inside of you. And even though you're like, oh, well, it's making someone else happy, that's really not. If it costs your happiness, it's gonna stick inside of you and cause a lot more problems in the long run. And again, none of this is an example to be a jerk or treat people poorly or anything like that, but. Because there is a way to kindly and caringly tell somebody no and still try to harbor those relationships so that you don't have to live in that fear. Right? Because I think people have a hard time telling people hard things because they're afraid that they'll never talk to them again. Or things like that. Especially, like, if it's your parents. You don't want your parents to be like, I never want to talk to you again. But you also can't just do whatever they want, Right. If it's not what you want as well either. Because then you're not even really living for yourself. So it's that delicate balance of being like, hey, like, I know you want to invite these five people to the wedding, but we don't really have that in the budget or the guest list. So unfortunately, we're not gonna be able to doing that. And if your mom's mad because she can't invite her five friends, be like, I understand you're probably disappointed, but, you know, this is our wedding day. And it's what we have to do in order to have it go off the way that we are planning it to and that we want it to.

John [00:31:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:08]: I hope you know you're not mad at me enough to not wanna talk to me again. Cause I still want you to be able to come to the wedding. Cause I know some people probably run into where their mom might be, like, well, I'm not coming if my friends aren't coming. You know, like, people do run into those extreme cases, but, you know, reassuring. I really want you there. Like, you're super important in my life. And, you know, I can't even imagine not having my mom at the wedding. So I'm hoping that you're still able to come But I'm not able to do the five people that you want to invite. Like, you still have to still have that boundary and still do what you want to do and still be honest about it. But you can do it in a way where you're still letting that person know that you care about them and their feelings about the situation. And, you know, I understand that this isn't the outcome that you would want, but it's what has to happen for our day.

John [00:32:03]: But there's a lot of adults that still haven't learned the word no, how to handle it. And sometimes. And you don't really. I mean, it's good if you want to explain to some degree your point, but you don't owe anyone an explanation either. You can say no, and your no can simply be a no. And that's okay. Again, not being a jerk. Not being a jerk about it, but just saying, no, we're not going to do that. Yeah, that's enough. You know? Yeah. Again, maybe it's your parent, you want to say a little bit more than that. But a lot of times when you say a little bit more because you're trying to be nice, and we know this because it happens with our daughter, too, it's like you give the explanation and then it gives someone a little.

Nicole [00:32:42]: Thread that they can be like, maybe I can convince them.

John [00:32:47]: Right. And so it would have been better to just say no.

Nicole [00:32:49]: Yeah.

John [00:32:50]: So many cases. And I think that the big thing about it, too is it's like you can do things because people want you to, you can, but you should never do them out of obligation. So if you feel like you must do them because there is such a thing as making a sacrifice, but you have to own it and realize that you've chosen that. So if someone wants to do something or wants you to do something, and you really are not too big on that, then you have a choice. And you have to recognize you have the choice because you have that sovereignty. And you can either not do it and tell them no, or you can make a sacrifice, which is an okay choice, and say, okay, I'm gonna do something for them, even though I don't like it as much, but you have to do. But that's not doing it from obligation, it's doing it from obligation. When you feel like, if I don't do this. Yeah, like, yeah, exactly, your plowhouse. Like, I have to do this now, otherwise there's going to be an emotional consequence that they're going to give me, that's the wrong reason. To do it because that will breed resentment. Right? Because there's plenty of times when I do something that I don't necessarily want to do. We make sacrifices for our daughter all the time. They're not things that we necessarily. Look, we went to a K pop concert. Do I want to necessarily go to a K pop concert? No. I had a good time and I'm glad I went. But I made a sacrifice. I would have spent my night doing something else. I can't say that I did it. And again, maybe the daughter one is a little bit different because I have an obligation to take care of her, but I don't have an obligation to take her to K pop concerts. That's something I chose to do. But I made a sacrifice of my evening because I wanted to spend the time with her and make her happy, which was a choice I made, not out of obligation. And that's the key thing about this is because I think once you grasp that, then you realize that, yeah, you have the freedom to make these choices, but you have to understand you have the freedom, because if you don't, you're going to do things out of obligation. And the flip side of it is this is when you do things out of obligation, you think you're. You're serving someone, but you're not. Because have you ever had someone do something for you out of obligation and you know, they don't want to be doing what they're doing and it ruins it for you. You would rather they just told you the truth, Right, Rather than them doing the thing begrudgingly?

Nicole [00:35:12]: Yeah.

John [00:35:12]: Because you know it. Even if they're trying to put on a smile, you. You're like, they don't really want to be here. Like, you know, let's say that. That you're like, john, will you come to me with. Come with me to Costco, you know? And I'm like, okay, I'll come with you to Costco. But I feel like I have to do it, right? Because you're asking me to do it. You're going to be upset at me if I don't do it. And so then I go to Costco, and I'm walking around Costco, and you're like, look at this. And I'm on my phone the whole time looking at this thing, wishing I wasn't there. Like, wouldn't you rather I just didn't go to Costco?

Nicole [00:35:44]: Yes.

John [00:35:45]: Right. So. And that's how people feel. So we. A lot of times we think that we're doing someone a service, but when we're not telling them the truth about how we actually feel, and we're doing things out of obligation, we're actually. We're not even actually helping them. It's actually worse for them as well.

Nicole [00:36:00]: And when, like, you said, you said it really well. When you feel like you're not choosing it, because I feel like if you were like, okay, I am going to go to Costco with Nicole and, like, mentally made that distinction, it would have probably been different as well than me asking you and you being in your head like, no, I don't want to go, but I'm gonna tell her yes, but I'm gonna drag my feet the entire time because I don't want to go.

John [00:36:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:24]: You know, and then that's why you act the way, like being on your phone or things like that. So, you know, if you're making that choice, right. And you distinguish that, okay, I'm making this choice. I don't particularly want to do this, but this is my choice.

John [00:36:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:38]: You'll have a better experience than, like you said, if you're like, I don't want to do this. Yeah, but I have to.

John [00:36:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:46]: Then you're not going to enjoy it at all. Like, you're. Even if you're, like you said, putting on a fake smile, they're going to know that you don't want to do that. So it's better to, like you said, make the choice and the sacrifice.

John [00:37:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:01]: Or tell somebody the truth, that, no, I don't want to go to Costco with you.

John [00:37:05]: And you can even say. I can even say, I don't really want to go to Costco, but I'll go for you. But now I'm still making the choice. I'm telling you, I don't really want to go. I would do something else with my time, but I. But I would glad. But I would love to do it for you. Right, Right. So then you don't feel bad now because you're like, okay, well, he's doing this for me. Whereas before, you're unsure if I'm doing it for you. You're like, I don't know. He said he wants to go, but he's there staring at his phone, and it looks like this is the most miserable day that he's ever experienced in his life.

Nicole [00:37:35]: Well.

John [00:37:35]: And you even enjoy being with me.

Nicole [00:37:37]: You've given someone the to. Even if they say that, where you could be like, oh, well, if you don't want to go, then I'll just go by myself.

John [00:37:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:43]: Yeah, you know, so like you said, even the being honest about your sacrifice can also get you what you want. If they're like, never mind, like, I don't mind going by myself, then you can go. But hopefully they're not like telling you that and then kind of resent you for it. They shouldn't do that.

John [00:38:00]: But no, because then they're, then they're doing this. They're out of obligation. Because then they're like, twist our brain here. But then they're out of obligation, releasing you from your supposed obligation because they feel like they have to let you. They. They can't now say, I'd like you to go anyway.

Nicole [00:38:18]: Yeah.

John [00:38:18]: So it's multiple levels to this three dimensional chess game.

Nicole [00:38:22]: Yeah.

John [00:38:22]: But, but it is important to understand this because especially in the relationship it will affect. Because it's not just you anymore. Before, if you want to live not understanding this and be other people's plow horse, it's okay. You shouldn't. But now when you've got someone else involved and you've got, especially when you've got kids involved, now you've got a family, you. Other people are depending on you.

Nicole [00:38:45]: Yeah.

John [00:38:45]: And now you're allowing yourself to be, you know, obligated by other people who have no say in your relationship. And that's where this becomes a really important thing. And it's a super important topic because I deal with this all the time. It's hard.

Nicole [00:39:00]: A lot of people struggle with it. I still struggle with it in different ways. Like last night when we had some friends over and we were, me and the girlfriend were deciding do we go to dance or not? And it's like, you know, I was like, I want to go because I want to see the teacher. But I was really tired and my friend was really tired. And so, you know, we sat there for a long time, like going back and forth. Do we go because we made this, like we signed up for the class.

John [00:39:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:25]: But then it's like, do we honor that we don't really want to go. Like, and are we gonna just be dragging ourselves to dance? Like, I knew we would still have fun if we went, but it's like, is that gonna be a different experience? Because we wanted to stay home because we felt tired.

John [00:39:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:40]: So, but then again I'm like, but the teacher, I haven't been to one of her classes in so long and like, I care about her and her feelings and I don't want her to be offended. And it's like, you know, which I do still care about. That. But ultimately I had to honor the fact that I just. Just didn't feel like going and she didn't. My friend didn't feel like going. So we ended up not going. And it was hard, though, because I thought about the teacher where I wanted to go, and, you know. But then I signed up for next week, and I'm like, you know, if she's upset that I didn't go, I'll make it up to her next week when I.

John [00:40:11]: You don't have to make it up. Cause that's enough.

Nicole [00:40:13]: I'll see her, though, and apologize is what I mean. Like, if she's upset about it, then I'll apologize that I didn't.

John [00:40:20]: Doing what you wanted.

Nicole [00:40:21]: You weren't obligated for wasting her time, like, wasting a spot. Because apologize.

John [00:40:26]: That's for wasting a spot. For sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:27]: So, you know, that's.

John [00:40:29]: But I mean, you're demonstrating. It is tricky because even. Even that same night, last night, I almost was. Because there was a pet situation where I didn't really want the pet at the. In involved in the situation without getting too much into details. And I had to.

Nicole [00:40:46]: We didn't know how our pet would respond.

John [00:40:48]: Yeah. And my inclination was to be like, oh, I don't want to let them down. But it was like, no, but the honest truth is, no, I would prefer if this wasn't the case. And that's okay. Like, and sometimes people are going to be disappointed when you express what your truth is, and that's okay. But it's hard. It's still hard. It's still hard because you don't want to let people down.

Nicole [00:41:07]: Right.

John [00:41:07]: But.

Nicole [00:41:08]: And especially you care about, like, we're talking about, like, with a wedding or something like that. Because, like, you know, but if I.

John [00:41:14]: Had not made that decision, then maybe the pet would be there and I'd be annoyed because there'd be conflict issues with, you know, things that we'd be dealing with that I didn't want and that would have interfered with this. With the.

Nicole [00:41:26]: Distracted.

John [00:41:27]: Exactly. And so then I would have been annoyed. Right. And so. So. Yeah, so. So, I mean, it is something that.

Nicole [00:41:35]: Right. I just don't want to watch this and be like, you know, you're like, I could just. Just don't do. Just don't care. Like, don't be obligated. Like, which is true. And for a lot of people, sometimes that does flip the switch. So I'm not saying it's not valuable information.

John [00:41:49]: No.

Nicole [00:41:49]: But I just want to be honest that it's it's hard to navigate, especially when it's people you really care about, because I agree with you. Even last night, for the same reason, I was like, oh, I hope they don't. They come over and be mad at us, you know, or whatever.

John [00:42:02]: But it comes down to, like, don't do anything. This is going to sound like really weird advice, but, but, but I've said it a lot of times is don't do anything you don't want to do. So what does that mean? It means if you do it, decide that you want to do it, it means willingly do it. So even if it's a sacrifice at some point, like we were saying before, you're like, oh, I don't want to do this. Okay, so then don't do it.

Nicole [00:42:27]: Right.

John [00:42:27]: Or change your attitude about it and do it. But you can't do it while you don't want to.

Nicole [00:42:33]: Yeah.

John [00:42:34]: Because you're going to be a miserable Debbie Downer. Exactly. I was going to say a miserable Nancy, but Debbie Downer is negative Nancy. Negative Nancy. That's what it is. But, but yeah, so. So you have to commit in your mind that if you're going to do something, know, especially if you're going to do something for someone no one likes someone who does something for you and, and tries to make you feel obligated or makes you feel just how inconvenienced they are by the thing that they're doing for you.

Nicole [00:42:59]: You're like, I've experienced that too.

John [00:43:01]: Don't even do it for me. If you're going to tell me about what a sacrifice it is. Right.

Nicole [00:43:05]: I've experienced that.

John [00:43:06]: So you have to. That's why it is very true. Don't do anything you don't want to do.

Nicole [00:43:11]: Yeah.

John [00:43:12]: Period. It seems like crazy advice, but it really is true.

Nicole [00:43:15]: No, it is, and you're right. But I just wanted to be honest that it's hard.

John [00:43:19]: And yeah, it is hard.

Nicole [00:43:20]: It's easy to fall into the loop. Even if you have the mindset like we're talking about, you kind of have to continuously tell yourself these things and continuously do the hard thing, which is say no. Or, you know, like you said, do what you actually want to do or say no to the things you don't want to do. The more you do that, the easier it does become. But you can still fall into the loop of being like, well, I care about what that person, you know, feels like. I think too, that people need to realize that sometimes they do things and care about how people feel. Because they think the person will notice.

John [00:43:55]: Right, right.

Nicole [00:43:56]: And you have to count on them not noticing, because then it's not coming from the place that you actually think that it's coming from. It's coming from more of, like, a transactional thing like we talked about in the last episode. So that's why, like you said, you either have to say you don't want to do it and don't do it, or make the sacrifice and commit to that choice that you made and change your mindset about it and be like, this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to enjoy the time because I committed to this, you know, because otherwise you're just causing a lot of other internal problems when you're doing things because you're trying to get something from someone else or you're trying to influence someone else in some way. And so that's why, like you said, you know, just being honest about it. And even if, like you said about the Costco thing, if you're like, I don't really want to go, but I will go for you because you asked me to, and I want to do this for you or something, I don't.

John [00:44:54]: Want to go, but I like spending time with you. And if I can spend more time with you, even if it's doing some activity I don't want to do, I'd rather do that.

Nicole [00:45:00]: Yeah.

John [00:45:01]: Like, those are all fine answers to give.

Nicole [00:45:03]: Yeah.

John [00:45:04]: Yeah. So, yeah. Or even I don't want to go, but I would like to do, like you, in your mind, you might even say, I don't want to do this thing, but I do enjoy the look on my partner's face or my friend's face of making them happy, of doing something for them. And I enjoy doing that. And I can like that and feel like I have a choice in that as opposed to not having the choice where I'm going to get the resentment. And I think it also applies in the relationship. Right. Because even in the relationship, because a lot of times we have outside obligations, but it's the inner obligations, too. Like, you shouldn't feel obligated to your spouse to do these things. You have to be honest, because that's how resentment starts building up, is it's like, well, I don't really want to do this thing, but I always get dragged to this thing.

Nicole [00:45:48]: That's very true.

John [00:45:49]: You need to address that. You either need to. You need to say that you don't like the thing and then say, but I'll do this for you. And then in your mind, really accept that you have your sovereignty and you're making this choice and that you do enjoy that you're doing something for your spouse, and that's what is meaningful to you, not the actual thing. Because there's lots of things that we don't necessarily want to do, but we do for someone, but we have to do them for the right reason, meaning that we have to decide, tell ourselves that, yeah, I'm doing this because I enjoy making my spouse happy, and this makes my spouse happy, and so. So that I'm okay with that. And then it becomes a meaningful sacrifice instead of an obligation or something that we dread or regret. Like, we have to be honest with those things, because those things will build up over time. And it does, you know, and then finally someone blows up and says, for three years, I did this, and I. You know, and then the other person feels completely blindsided and completely hurt because they felt like you were doing something for them out of kindness, and you really just felt like you had to do it because you're afraid of them being upset with you. That's a huge betrayal. And those things happen all the time in relationships.

Nicole [00:47:00]: No, it's good that you mentioned that. It can even happen in the relationship as well, too, because you're right that I feel like that's probably one of the main reasons that resentment does build up is because people are doing things that they don't really want to be doing, and they're expecting their partner to appreciate it or notice or whatever, and they're not. And when they don't, then, like you said, it builds up, and then they just explode. And then the other partner's like, well, I thought you wanted to do these things. You said, yes, like, and you've been doing them. Like, I didn't know that you didn't want to be doing this.

John [00:47:34]: Could happen with a meal, a food. Like, oh, you like this? Did you like this dinner that I made? Oh, yeah, it's great. And now they think it's your favorite. And now they keep on cooking this thing that you hate to eat. Yeah, right. It's like you get yourself into these situations by not being honest. And then you're going to. You're gonna really hurt the person's feelings later on when you tell them five.

Nicole [00:47:52]: Years later when you're like, I don't like your spaghetti and meatballs.

John [00:47:55]: Exactly. And they're like, I kept on making it special for you. And how good do you feel when you're making something special for someone? Because you feel like they like it, and then to find out that becomes a huge betrayal. So it's better to just be honest from the beginning and do it in a tactful way. And, yes, it will hurt some feelings, but it'll hurt feelings a lot more not being honest.

Nicole [00:48:16]: Yeah, that's true.

John [00:48:18]: Yeah. All right. I think we beat that dead workhorse. Plow horse.

Nicole [00:48:24]: Yeah.

John [00:48:24]: Into the ground. He's ready to go to the gum factory. Of the glue factory.

Nicole [00:48:29]: Factory. Yeah. So he's ready to be put down.

John [00:48:33]: All right. Yeah. Anything else that you had on it?

Nicole [00:48:34]: No, I thought that was good. I mean, it's. It's. I get both sides. Right. Because it's like, I've.

John [00:48:41]: It's hard.

Nicole [00:48:41]: Definitely been there. But it is more empowering to, you know, stand up for yourself and speak your truth and do it in a kind and caring way. And like I said, you feel like you'll lose those connections, but it makes them better, and that's the truth. So.

John [00:48:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:58]: But you still fall into the loop sometimes. But don't beat yourself up about that either. Just, you know, stand back up and speak your truth.

John [00:49:05]: Yeah. And you can always tell someone. I gotta be honest with you. I have not been honest with you.

Nicole [00:49:12]: I have to be honest with you. I have not been honest with you.

John [00:49:15]: I'm coming clean. I've been pretending like I like this because I didn't want to hurt your feelings. That's the. It's a hard conversation, but it's a much better one. And most people will be understanding of that because you've been vulnerable enough to say that and to come forward with that. Like, I've had to tell people before. Like, I don't know your name. I know you've told me it. I know I've been pretending like I know your name, but I don't know your name.

Nicole [00:49:46]: That's definitely a hard one to say.

John [00:49:50]: All right. I don't think we had any. I mean, we've been going along smooth.

Nicole [00:49:56]: Yeah.

John [00:49:56]: So, yes, we have nothing to do.

Nicole [00:49:57]: Keep going.

John [00:49:58]: But just check out the new website. Better than Perfect Podcast. Pod Pod. Not podcast. Better than Perfect Pod Dot com. And sign up on there. If you subscribe on there, you'll get the new episodes when they come out automatically. And you can leave comments, you know, if you want to leave us a review on itunes. We're not begging anymore for it, but, you know, anymore. But do it.

Nicole [00:50:21]: So we'll do it anyway.

John [00:50:23]: Yeah. Anything else we got?

Nicole [00:50:25]: No, I don't think so.

John [00:50:26]: That's it. All right. We'll see you next week. We find our way.