Nicole [00:00:00]: If you're obviously in a controlling, abusive relationship, you do need to get out of it.

John [00:00:05]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:00:05]: And I'm not saying that those things don't exist, but as women, we've been so afraid of those situations. We've been putting those situations on every man. We need to realize we've been controlling them and we've been ganging up on them. Someone has to rip the band aid off and expose the wound to the world, because that's what it is like. It is a generational wound that we're still carrying. And honestly, we're creating a new wound beyond the perfect.

John [00:00:33]: We discover through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:58]: That's right.

John [00:00:59]: And we're back. And we're still real ish, in case you were wondering. Did you say ish?

Nicole [00:01:07]: Let's not get John. This is not an AI Episode. You cannot go down your wormhole of that. We're in a simulation, and we're AI. We're a prompt. But if you want to hear John talk about that, you can go to his bulldog mindset video about it. You'll know which one it is. Yes, he is a great.

John [00:01:25]: I made a perfect thumbnail.

Nicole [00:01:26]: Yeah, the thumbnail picture. You'll know when you're there. But yeah. So today I figured my episode topic because we've been watching Secret Live of Mormon Wives, which I have forced John to watch in a way. And I've done this by saying we don't have drama like this in our lives so we can watch other people be messy, you know, which. Not gonna. But we're not gonna have drama in our lives. But it just really made me realize that women have kind of taken it a little too far in the. I'm going to do what I'm going to do.

John [00:02:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:06]: And this is also coming from somebody who did have more of that mentality before you and I met. Not to the extreme of these women on this show, but I think that women have taken it a little too far. And even back when I was in the similar mindset, it was still probably a little too far, if I'm being honest. And I get where it comes from.

John [00:02:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:34]: So I guess I'll say that this episode, I would title it Women Want to have Their Cake and Eat It Too. Right. They want to do whatever they want to do.

John [00:02:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:44]: And other people just have to deal with it, but also honor what they want to do, even if the other person doesn't agree. Right.

John [00:02:51]: Yeah, that's.

Nicole [00:02:51]: You know what I mean?

John [00:02:52]: That's how it seems to be. Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:54]: So I get that it stems from them being afraid of being controlled. And I get to some degree even that, like, maybe their grandparents or great grandparents lived in the time where that was actually happening.

John [00:03:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:12]: But we're not. Right. And so it's. And I get that, like, there can be some generational trauma and things like that, but there has to come a point where you're like, I'm not taking this any further. Like, I'm not. I'm not allowing this to go to the next generation.

John [00:03:29]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:29]: And so when we have been watching the show, which we haven't, like, officially finished, it just made me realize that it's gotten really extreme with this sort of behavior. And again, I know where it stems from. Women are afraid to be controlled. They're afraid to be controlled by men. And I think it does stem from knowing that men are more powerful in a way. Like, they're physically more powerful.

John [00:03:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:59]: They, you know, if they are leading the relationship or it is more traditional. Like, they do have all of the power. And that's scary. And also, it's scary to feel like you do know a man and his character, and then maybe that changes in a way. Or you feel like you know who he really is, but maybe you were blinded to that. He probably wasn't as trustworthy to begin with, but you feel like it's. You know, you're blindsided by it. So I get where all these fears of being controlled come from. But we've taken it too far. Like, we're overcompensating too far.

John [00:04:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:38]: And I think we're doing that with a lot of things in general, like, in life. I know we've talked about this a lot with, like, how kids are being raised. And, you know, I saw another video today that talked about it, and we were maybe neglected or. And our parents definitely were as children. And so I feel like we're the first generation that's trying to fix that. Like, really fix it. But now we've overcompensated. Right. And that's why these kids are growing up and they can't handle anything.

John [00:05:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:15]: We overcompensated for our parents way of doing things. And as women, we're overcompensating of, like, I wanna do this. You can't tell me what to do. I can wear Whatever I want, you can't tell me what to wear to our detriment as women. Because even like I just said, women wearing what they wanna wear, that doesn't mean show up naked in public. Like that doesn't mean see through clothing to every event. You know what I mean?

John [00:05:46]: I think it doesn't mean don't take other people into consideration.

Nicole [00:05:52]: Right.

John [00:05:52]: And that's kind of the whole thing that is disturbing about the thing because you might not be, as far as we are, on the side of A man should be a leader of the house and the leader of the relationship and he should have the authority and the woman should submit to his authority. Again, granted, that it is. She trusts that man. Right. Maybe people aren't that far. But even if you're not that far in believing that you, you have to see the reason in saying that maybe women shouldn't do just whatever they want and not care about what anyone. So like let's say that you're, you're not quite as far as we are in the more than the modern traditional. But you're like either just a reasonable person. I mean, I think it's still reasonable what we're saying. But, but what I'm saying is that you wouldn't think that it's okay that what? That it doesn't matter what your spouse thinks at all. That I'm going to wear whatever I want and if you don't like it, that doesn't matter at all. Or I'm going to do what I want and if you don't like it, that doesn't matter at all. If men did that, it's the female.

Nicole [00:06:58]: Equivalent of an asshole of like that quadrant that you have. It's the female equivalent of an asshole.

John [00:07:03]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:07:04]: They don't care what people think and they don't care about people.

John [00:07:07]: Except they do care what people think.

Nicole [00:07:11]: So it's a narcissist.

John [00:07:12]: Narcissist. Yeah. Because they, they, they do care. That's why they're doing what they're, they're doing it to get attention in many cases. There's a lot of psychology behind this. I think that that guy, the psych hacks guy, Ryan Taravan, I was telling you, I watched a video of his that I thought was, was pretty good on that He' good wisdom and he was talking about what women want and he said it's an age old question and his answer was basically women want what other women want. And what he was saying was that so that means everything, women want everything. And why is that because of social media, shows a woman going on an expensive vacation in Italy, this woman is an influencer. This woman is going to this party and has this handbag and she has this plastic surgery and this. And so because they're seeing all of these things, women want everything. They want to be able to be a doctor and do their career and to be a mother and to, you know, into, like, to have children and to have all these things that you can't all have all at the same time. But they want them all because they're afraid they're missing out, which makes sense from a psychological perspective. But unfortunately, I think it's bled into the sense of entitlement, of like, I get everything. You can't tell me what to do. You can't tell me what I can have. In that show, the Mormon Wives example, that is just so extreme. And I think it's funny because I don't think a lot of society thinks it's extreme. But the girls go to this Chippendales thing in Vegas and one of the husbands gets upset about the woman even being there. She's not participating in the thing. But people are all like, oh, he's.

Nicole [00:08:55]: So controlling it in the wrong way.

John [00:08:56]: He did it the wrong way.

Nicole [00:08:58]: He was justified to be upset, but.

John [00:09:00]: They made it like, oh, he's controlling. He can't. And then. And then they did. Like, in this season, they had one of the other girls husbands without them knowing that this couple do a lap dance in the Chippendales outfit for the.

John [00:09:18]: Girl.

John [00:09:20]: That her husband was the, quote, controlling one, and made him sit there and watch that as a surprise that they. And immediately when I saw that, I thought this would never fly. Like, all the girls were cheering it on. They were saying, oh, he needs exposure therapy. He needs to not be so controlled. And I thought this would never, ever fly if this were flipped around. Can you imagine if the situation was some guy had his wife strip and do a lap dance on another guy because his wife. Because that guy's wife needs to chill out, not be so controlling and worry about what he. Because he could do whatever he wants to do. Like, don't try and control his life. Like, if he wants to go and have strippers, you know, go to a strip club, but he's not going to touch them or whatever, then he can do that if he wants to. Hell, no. That would never fly. Right? Yeah, but so that just kind of gives you that calibration of that sense of entitlement that's going on with a Lot of women today that a lot of women support that, that viewpoint. Because again, shows like this are depicting this, they're creating that. That's why I really hate this show. Like, I, I, there's a few things I, I hate this show. One, cause of the hypocrisy. But two, but because it's promoting this message that, like, oh, you can do whatever you want and your girl's friend should cheer you on. And if, God forbid, your husband has a problem with it, then he's the problem. Yeah, that's ridiculous.

Nicole [00:10:50]: Well, I feel like to me, obviously, why this is even coming up is that it's so extreme that it showed me how bad it is. But I get that to society, it's probably not doing that, but I think to self aware people, it should be doing that because, yes, you're 1,000% right, that if the tables were turned and it was girl strippers coming there and like, a woman was like, I don't want my husband to be around strippers. And they were like, you need to lighten up. And then they and her friends, because this guy's technically supposed to be friends with the guy.

John [00:11:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:28]: Put on lingerie and strip for your.

John [00:11:32]: Husband doing the lap dance.

Nicole [00:11:34]: Right. It would not be fine. But I think as a woman, right. What really woke me up is that these women would not be okay if their husbands said to them, I'm gonna do what I want and you're gonna deal with it. That's controlling. And so they're becoming the exact thing that they don't want.

John [00:11:57]: Right?

Nicole [00:11:57]: Yeah, they're becoming controlling.

John [00:11:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:00]: In order to prevent the man from controlling them. And that's also wrong.

John [00:12:05]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:05]: Because I'm sure people are gonna watch this and they're gonna be like, oh, my God, she's gonna pick me. Or like, she's talking bad about women. I don't want women to be this way.

John [00:12:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:12]: Yeah, I understand where they're coming from. I understand they're so afraid of being controlled by a bad man. Because tons of the girls on that show talk about I was in a bad marriage. And I believe that they were abused in some way. Like, I believe that they had a bad, controlling relationship. But what they don't realize is they have become the bad controlling relationship for their new husband.

John [00:12:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:39]: They have bullied them by using manipulative tactics to be okay with whatever they do.

John [00:12:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:47]: But if the tables were turned, they would not be okay if their husband did it. And that's just wrong. Like, we have to be honest that's wrong no matter who's doing it. If a man is trying to control women in the way that these women are trying to control these men, we would say it was wrong.

John [00:13:02]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:13:03]: And we have said it was wrong. And. And we have acknowledged that. And. But women have gotten so afraid of this happening again and again.

John [00:13:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:11]: That they have now become controlling in the same damaging way that these men were. And we're accepting it because no one wants to press any buttons and, like, piss people off. But the reality is, it's hypocritical and it's very concerning.

John [00:13:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:31]: Because it's not fair. Like, I get that life is not fair, but if you don't want a man to be controlling to you, you should not be controlling to your husband.

John [00:13:41]: Oh, yeah. And we've encountered this before. Again, not to piss off the book talk again, but, like, when we did the book, the smut novel thing, and we said that there may be a problem with this, all these women got so upset about it. And it's like, but it's okay for you to be upset that your husband's looking at pornography on the Internet?

Nicole [00:14:01]: Well. And they're like, my husband is okay with it. And we got an email from a husband that was okay with it initially. Initially. But then realized what it is actually doing to his relationship and that it's actually driving a wedge in between the relationship. And now he is like, what do I do at this point? So you're 1000% right that it's. It's hypocritical to read a smut novel which is just words that are vividly describing something so that you can picture it in your head versus it actually being pictured with humans. And I get that their thing is like, well, they're not real humans. That sound like excuses. Right. It doesn't excuse the fact that it is still hypocritical or that your partner.

John [00:14:49]: Has a problem with it. That's like, that you care about how your partner feels and that you just think if you want to just be in control of yourself 100% and can do whatever you want, then just be single, that's fine. You can do that. That's an option that you have. I would even say that I don't even like the control excuse, because here's the real truth of it, and it goes both ways. Nobody can control you.

Nicole [00:15:14]: Right.

John [00:15:14]: Unless they got a gun to your head. Right. Unless they have some extreme leverage on you they can't control. Even then you can just suffer the consequences. But there are Situations I can acknowledge where you're in a situation where there's severe consequences that you would not want to face. And that effectively works as controller extortion. But in general, people say they're being controlled, but nobody can control you. People can act controlling, they can try to control you, but you can always say no. You can always. That's why I don't like hiding behind the excuse of being controlled. But even in the situations, because you know me, when we're watching the Mormon wives thing, I'm equally as pissed at the husbands calling them pussies because what kind of guy is going to allow his wife to go to a strip club? And yes, I did say the word allow because, yeah, because you are supposed to be the head, the authority of that house and you're supposed to say, uh, no, we're not doing this. This is not how things are going to go down. This is not. And if she's absolutely adamant that she's going to do whatever the hell that she wants, then she can do it by herself. Because you have to draw lines and be like, no, I'm not going to be controlled. You know what I mean? But again, there's this common decency here of understanding your partner and caring what other people think. Not just your partner, but just people in general. You don't do things that generally inconvenience and cause harm to other people just because you want to do it. To assert your right to do whatever you want. Yes, you are a human being, being who can do whatever you want in this world today. You don't have to prove it every day and show it every day at the cost of other people. We all make concessions for fellow human beings, especially in a relationship, in order to produce a better outcome or to maintain that relationship or out of common courtesy. It's when we choose to not make any concessions and just to assert our will and our right and our feelings that we become children. And that's what it is. It's acting like children. Because children at a certain age don't know the difference. When you have a three year old or four year old, they just want what they want. They don't make any concession for anyone. They want to do what they want to do and they don't have any consideration for anyone else. And that's okay at that developmental stage, but you have to progress past that. But when you see grown women acting like children, it's upsetting, you know, and even just, you know, like I said, the idea of hiding behind the excuse of not of the fear of being controlled. I'm done with it. I'm exhausted of that because I just don't buy it anymore. It's like you just have to take ownership and become a mature adult, you know? Yeah, maybe in the past, yes, there were situations where men had a lot more leverage on women. But even in those situations, women could still choose because a lot of people say, oh, well, woman couldn't work back. Women have been able to work for a long time. I mean, World War II was basically won by women working in the factories. So there's some truth to it, in a sense. But that power of choice has existed for a very, very, very long time. And there's been very few circumstances where there was true control, where you didn't have any choice in it, you know, so. So that's why.

Nicole [00:18:36]: But it was harder choices. Like, you have to be real. It was harder choices when they couldn't work and do things on their own. And yes, you're right, it's been a long time since those times. But honestly, before that happened, women didn't have that option as well either. And the reality is, is there were probably a lot of bad, abusive things, things happening in those times. Not all of those relationships look that way, but again, that's an excuse. You can acknowledge those things, but the train has to stop somewhere. And you can't punish men today for what those men did. By now you're the controlling one, and now you're putting your husband in potentially abusive. Because I feel like if one person, regardless if it's the man or the woman, is controlling everything in the way that these women are, is controlling everything in the sense of, I'm gonna do what I wanna do and I don't care what you think.

John [00:19:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:42]: That's abusive.

John [00:19:43]: Sure, it is abusive.

Nicole [00:19:44]: Like it's not hitting somebody and it's not severe emotional manipulation, but it is abusive. It's abusive to commit to somebody legally and then treat them that way.

John [00:19:58]: Exactly. Especially when there's kids involved. Because now there is something on the line and they can't just walk, walk away.

Nicole [00:20:04]: Right.

John [00:20:05]: Because that's not what they agreed to.

Nicole [00:20:06]: Right.

John [00:20:07]: It's a breach of the contract.

Nicole [00:20:09]: And we did a podcast episode that hasn't come out yet with a man earlier this week. And I think something that he said just really hit me. He talked about how critical women are of themselves. And, you know, I told him how I struggled with that myself. It's like women are already so critical of themselves that when someone else is critical to them, they almost hold on for dear life to prove that person wrong because they already think so many bad things about themselves. And I mean, even on this Mormon Wives show, one of the girls talked about how when something bad happens with their friends, it just confirms all these critical things she thinks about herself. And that is a reality for probably majority of women. And they might not admit that. And it's. Again, it's not an excuse.

John [00:20:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:58]: But it's something that we need to wake up to as women. We need to wake up to the fact that we are super critical of ourselves.

John [00:21:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:05]: And that we need to give ourselves more grace. Because when we're super critical to ourselves, we're super critical to everyone else in our life. And we cannot hear things about ourselves without tacking it onto the already harsh things that we're telling ourselves in our own head. And then we don't feel worthy, we don't feel good. So we're just destroying everything in our path because of that.

John [00:21:30]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:31]: And again, like, I'm not saying this as an excuse, but I'm saying it as an understanding. Because this man knew. He coaches women.

John [00:21:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:39]: Like, his clients are women. And he's like, women are. I just didn't realize how critical women are on themselves. And I think it's important for men to realize, too, not to give women a pass, but that when your wife is having an argument with you and you realize, oh, she's manipulating because she feels like she can't be wrong, that you can maybe handle it in a different way because that's what you had to do with me. I was also manipulating in a way that I didn't think I was manipulating. But when I really look at it, I was trying to manipulate the situation so that I wasn't actually wrong, so that it wasn't another thing to tack onto myself that I could feel bad about and then feel not worthy and then just be waiting for you to leave me because I'm not a good person or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, I'm sitting here and I'm gonna tell you all the stuff because I don't want women to feel like I'm attacking women. Sure. I was the woman who was like, I'm gonna do what I wanna do.

John [00:22:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:38]: Not to the extreme, but I was her. And now I'm this woman. And I'm realizing that we just. We can't be hypocritical. Like, we're creating a new problem.

John [00:22:47]: Right.

John [00:22:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:48]: And we need to be honest about that. We need to, like, really look at it. And I'm not saying this to give women another thing to be critical about themselves of. I'm trying to help them not be so critical about themselves. Men don't do it. Men are like, they make some mistakes, but they forgive each other. Like, we've had arguments, too, where you're like, I've done all these good things. Why don't those things matter? And it's like, probably because it doesn't matter as a woman.

John [00:23:13]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:14]: No matter how many good things you do, if one bad thing happens, because it just proves that you're bad forever and that you've always been bad. So we need to realize that we're perpetuating this in our own heads.

John [00:23:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:26]: And so because we're hypercritical of ourselves.

John [00:23:29]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:29]: And I think that, again, with some of this stuff, society thinks they're fixing the problem, like, by being like, oh, I love my body no matter what, and I can wear whatever I want because I love my body. That they're not being critical of themselves. And in a way, yes, you're not. But also the way to not be hypercritical of yourself is to not go to the extreme again. Right. Like, it's not saying you have to love your body, so don't wear clothes.

John [00:23:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:59]: You know what I mean? We're just taking things a little too far to try to convince ourselves and not be critical of ourselves on these things. But we're doing it in the wrong way. It's still, like you said, for outside people to tell us these things. But we have to do it on the inside. We have to give ourselves grace, not look for outside validation, not do things outside of ourselves in order to have people tell us that we're good and we're not bad. Because that's not really going to change anything. You'll just need more and more people to tell you you're not bad, you're good. You have to tell yourself that you're good and you're not bad and that you're human and you're gonna make mistakes, but that doesn't make you bad. And that your partner's human and they're gonna make mistakes. And yes, some mistakes are forgivable. I mean, all should be forgivable. But some mistakes you can live with, and some mistakes you probably need to leave the relationship. But you know what? Those things are.

John [00:24:55]: Right?

Nicole [00:24:56]: But at the end of the day, we have to stop pretending that we're perfect, because it's making us critical of ourselves and then critical of Everyone else, because we're trying to hold ourselves to this high standard that no one, including ourselves, can meet. So we feel bad. And then we're holding other people to this standard that they also can't meet. So we're taking it out on them to try to get them there, but we're not even there. We're never gonna get there. They're not gonna get there.

John [00:25:22]: And, you know, like one of the cures for criticism. I'll give it to you in an example, right? So if you're criticizing me, right, what's the fastest way for me to get you to stop criticizing me, to own.

Nicole [00:25:40]: Up to the thing?

John [00:25:41]: Accountability is the cure for criticism, for self criticism as well. Because when you're criticizing yourself, what you don't realize you're doing is you're not taking accountability.

Nicole [00:25:50]: You're trying to skirt it, right?

John [00:25:51]: But so even like, if you're shaming your body, if you're like, oh, I'm like, if you take accountability, the accountability of shaming your body looks like, okay, I'm not eating a healthy diet. I'm not exercising like I should be. That's accountability. It's my fault that I look this way, and that's okay. If I want to look different, that's also my responsibility, and I can do that right now. You'd stop criticizing yourself. We criticize ourselves when we don't take accountability. And that's the thing. And as soon as you start taking accountability, just like if someone else is criticizing you and you take accountability, they stop criticizing you because it stops it. And so I think that's the thing that a lot of women are missing, is that because it almost feels like if I don't take accountability, if I make excuses that will get me out of it, but it doesn't.

Nicole [00:26:40]: I don't have to be labeled with that if I don't agree to it.

John [00:26:43]: Exactly. It might silence it for some time, but that's really the whole thing. And that's like taking accountability for your behavior in general. Right. You can't blame men, you can't blame society, just like men can't blame women. Can't blame society. And it's like you have to own up to the things that you're doing. And that's what I don't see. I'm sorry, trying to move my busted leg, abusing me. But it has become such a huge problem. And I think you're right on the money as what fuels it. A lot of it is this self criticism that so many women have.

Nicole [00:27:21]: I'VE done it and I still do it. I'm not gonna act like I don't.

John [00:27:24]: Do it and they don't wanna do it.

Nicole [00:27:25]: I'm better at not doing it. You know what I mean?

John [00:27:28]: But you're doing it by taking accountability is what I see.

Nicole [00:27:32]: And like you said, that is the cure. It's the cure. It's being vulnerable. It's what everybody tells us is the cure to all these things. It really is the cure to all these things.

John [00:27:43]: It is.

Nicole [00:27:43]: And I'm very lucky that I have a partner like you that has made me feel loved during all my mistakes. That has really helped. I'm not gonna act like I could even probably have gotten here on my own. It's hard. Like, you can if you're hearing stuff like this. I didn't hear stuff like this when I was on my own. I'm not saying you can't get there on your own. But it's been so incredibly helpful to have a partner that has stuck by me through making all these mistakes and showing me in a loving way like you. Like, you tell me the hard truths in a nice way where I'm like, okay, yeah, I am. Like, I need to. I need to see what John's saying. Cause he's being kind about this. Even though I'm doing this thing that is hurting him. And it's hurting myself obviously, too. But I think one of the other big problems is, is that we're not born with emotional maturity.

John [00:28:41]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:42]: It is something you have to learn. And a lot of us weren't born with that emotion. Like, our parents did not teach us that emotional maturity because they didn't have it. And that's also the generational thing that we need to stop. And again, we've kind of overcompensated, like we talked about in the last episode, that we were trying to protect our daughter so much that it overcompensated and created another sort of problem. So there. There is, like, a balance to it. Obviously. Like, you don't want to overcompensate for something that you didn't have. But it is still your responsibility as an adult to learn emotional maturity if it was not taught to you. And there are so many resources because you're not going to hold yourself accountable.

John [00:29:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:30]: If you don't have emotional maturity, you're not going to realize that the my way or the highway or like, I want to have my cake and eat it too mentality is wrong if you don't have emotional maturity.

John [00:29:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:44]: And if I'M being honest. Most of the girls on the Secret Live and Mormon Wives show do not have emotional maturity.

John [00:29:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:53]: They act like high schoolers.

John [00:29:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:57]: And they're addicted to that drama. And a lot of people are. But the thing is, like, Taylor on that show, she's the only one that takes accountability. And like, she still has her own things that she's going through, but she owns it. And so in my opinion, she's the only one on that show that is trying to break out of.

John [00:30:18]: Yeah, to break out. That's exactly what I was thinking.

Nicole [00:30:20]: And. But the way to do that, like you said, I agree with you, is I think, accountability. But you have to learn that emotional maturity. Because if you're fighting against that and if you're so critical on yourself and if you like, you know, don't have any sort of emotional maturity, it's gonna be basically impossible for you to get there because you're just so stuck in that mindset.

John [00:30:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:44]: That you're not gonna take accountability. And you could even have emotional maturity in other places.

John [00:30:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:50]: Or like, have worked on yourself in other places. But if you're really sticking to your guns on something like, I can't ever be wrong or like, I'm gonna do what I want and I don't care about other people's feelings.

John [00:31:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:03]: Or like using some sort of slogan like, well, it's my life and I'm gonna live it the way that I want. Like, you're using that to not care about people. Like life is. And relationships are about compromise. Yeah. It's not. It can't be just all about you 24 7. Unless you want to be single.

John [00:31:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:21]: Then it's all about you.

John [00:31:22]: Yeah. But if you're in a.

Nicole [00:31:24]: It's not. You're not going to have good friendships, you're not going to have good relationships with anybody. But. So this is something that people have to learn. And the thing with learning is you have to be open to the possibility of learning new things. Right. And again, it doesn't have to be perfect. I don't want people, women listening to this and being like, if I mess up, you know, that's that critical self talk talking again that we all have. But if you try and if you see what it does to your life and how it improves it and how it deepens your relationships with everyone. When you take accountability and when you know you're. You're compromising, you're not. This is. It's my way or the highway. You realize how much better your life actually is and how much more connected you feel to people rather than. Because let's be real, those girls in that show, they don't have any real friends.

John [00:32:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:21]: They're all like going behind each other's back to do what they want to do.

John [00:32:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:26]: To play whatever side benefits them at the time.

John [00:32:29]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:30]: So they don't actually have good connections with anybody.

John [00:32:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:34]: Whereas if they. They like weren't so well, I'm gonna do what I want to do.

John [00:32:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:41]: And throwing people under the bus. They would actually have good friendships.

John [00:32:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:47]: To lean on. And their relationships would not be what seems one sided.

John [00:32:53]: Right. Well, even a lot of people get upset with us too. Like the second episode we did on this podcast of the rules of the relationship.

John [00:32:59]: Right.

John [00:33:00]: The six rules. And they're like, oh, restricting your partner and like telling. Saying that you can't. Your partner should just be able to do whatever they want to do. And it's. No, like, that's not true. Like having boundaries, having restrictions of this is not acceptable in this relationship is perfectly healthy and normal.

Nicole [00:33:20]: But I think they're triggered by the words rules allow. Like you said earlier, like surrendered, submit, Submit. Yeah. All of those words. It scares them. And again, I get it. I don't want to sit here and act like I don't get where they're coming from. I do.

John [00:33:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:38]: But.

John [00:33:39]: But you gotta get past.

Nicole [00:33:40]: They need to be accountable that they have taken that fear.

John [00:33:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:44]: And became the thing that they're afraid of.

John [00:33:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:47]: Like they have to realize that. And that's where when we've been watching the show and I've just been thinking about it, that I'm like, this has gone too far.

John [00:33:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:56]: And I don't think people are really talking about it. And like you said, I think, you know, in some ways women want to support women and sometimes they'll support them even when they know they're doing wrong things. But I think the way that we really support women is helping them see when they're actually taking things to the extreme. Because that is what I felt the most supportive when you did for me. And so even if all the women come for my neck, I don't care because I'm trying to say all this in a way where I'm like, I get where you're coming from and you're not a bad person. And like, it's just your brain making you so critical of yourself that you're taking it out on these other people. And so I hope when they listen to this that it comes from that loving Place that you gave me in order for me to realize all these things about myself.

John [00:34:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:54]: And that they can accept it in a way where they don't beat themselves up and that they can better their whole life.

John [00:35:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:03]: In general, because this was my idea. You weren't like, let's do it. This is an episode of. About how women are controlling. Yeah, but.

John [00:35:16]: But it's become.

Nicole [00:35:17]: I've been seeing.

John [00:35:18]: Well, because it becomes so apparent. It's so much in society today. And I think we've talked about this before, but I think this should go along with it. Is that for women to understand that when you call a man controlling or insecure, when you use that, you're using that as a manipulation tactic? It's. I tell guys all the time, if a woman says controlling or insecure, don't be insecure about being called insecure.

Nicole [00:35:42]: Yeah.

John [00:35:43]: Because that's a manipulation tactic. You should ignore that information because it's not the way to go about it. Yes, there can be overbearing guys who are, like, who are trying to be too micromanaging of you, and you can address that. And you can say, hey, when you're asking me a million questions about where I am all the time, it feels like you don't trust me. That's a perfectly valid way of addressing that. Or if I'm going out with my friends, the fact that you don't want me to go to this place and you're trying to discourage me from it makes me feel like you don't trust me. Even if it's a strip club, you could have that conversation, and then maybe he would say, well, I just don't feel like it's appropriate. It sets a bad message. I might trust you, but I still don't feel like it's appropriate. It makes me uncomfortable. And that's a perfectly valid thing. That does not make a person insecure.

Nicole [00:36:36]: Right.

John [00:36:36]: But when you say it's insecure, is it really that you really think that he's insecure? Or is it really that you know that by saying that he's going to let you do whatever you want because he doesn't want to appear that way or doesn't want to be controlling, he doesn't want to appear like an asshole. And so if you abuse a man in that way by taking advantage of him, because that part of the man that doesn't want to be controlling or insecure is the man who doesn't want to be a bully and he wants to protect you as a woman. And so if you use that against him, where you're trying to be like, oh, you're trying to control me, or you're being insecure. And that's kind of a protective instinct that he has that he doesn't want to be the bully. He doesn't want you to feel like he's doing things that are like bullying you or being overbearing on you. But when you say those words and manipulate it that way, now you're basically programming him to not be as. As caring or as sensitive to you because you're crying wolf. That's not the real truth of the situation. So, you know, again, it's just. I think it's important to. The language that we use is very important. And for women to understand that when you use those things, it's a manipulation tactic. And you should not be saying those things because that's not the real conversation. The conversation should be around, I feel like you don't trust me. It makes me feel like you don't trust me when this is happening. That's a totally fine thing to say. It's not manipulation. It's how you feel. But when you say you're being controlling or you're being insecure or whatever, it's manipulation because you're trying to get an outcome. You're trying to get a way of getting someone to back off of you so you can do whatever you want and not feel bad about it and make the other person feel bad for having some kind of standard in their life or not being okay with something or not being uncomfortable with something. Even when you've told me things that. That make you uncomfortable, my response as a man shouldn't be like, well, tough, or like, don't be so insecure about that. It should be, oh, wow, I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable. Let's talk about this. Like, let's. Let's find out why. Let's find out what can I do to not put you in a situation where you feel uncomfortable? Right. And so that's the way to handle things. But I just think that it's. I see it so often in those words, and it is manipulation. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:58]: And I think that a majority of women saying those things and saying a lot of the manipulative things don't even realize they're doing it. And, like, again, that's not an excuse. But I think that we've done it for so long. Because honestly, I want to say that women probably become critical of themselves before. Right before puberty or right at puberty. Right when your Body's changing and there's hormones. And now you care what people think. We've. I think that's when we start being critical of ourselves. I mean, we've seen it with our own daughter. She's critical of herself.

John [00:39:37]: She's a.

Nicole [00:39:38]: She's a teenager, like. And if I look back and I'm honest, that's probably when I started being critical of myself, too. And even she has told us, like, yeah, I didn't really care what people thought about me when I was, like, 8. You know, she can think back to that age easily because she's closer to it.

John [00:39:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:55]: And so I think women learn to try to mitigate their own shame at such a young age. Cause they're so critical of themselves at such a young age that they learn manipulation.

John [00:40:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:12]: And kids in general just learn it, you know, to try to get their way and things like that too. But we don't ever grow out of that. We don't ever really get a way to look at that. And so we just keep going and keep going until somebody says, hey, like, this is what's happening. And a lot of times someone might say that. And then a woman's still trying to get her way out of it. Right. Because she's just been so critical for so long.

John [00:40:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:40]: You can't tell her that she's doing something wrong. Cause then that proves she's a bad person. And she can't ever do that. That would just totally destroy her.

John [00:40:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:51]: And so it really takes somebody in a loving, kind way to kind of shed light on this. And again, I'm trying to be that person. I hope I'm not coming off, like, harsh, because I get where it's coming from, but it's also gotten to a really bad place. It's. It's become overcompensated for the fear of being controlled. We've overcompensated for. And now we're controlling people.

John [00:41:19]: And it's being cheered on. Is that.

Nicole [00:41:21]: And we're manipulating people into thinking it's okay for us to control.

John [00:41:23]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:41:24]: And so that's what I'm trying to get people to realize is that it is manipulation.

John [00:41:29]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:31]: Whether you can look at that in the mirror right now or not, you need to eventually look in the mirror as a woman and realize you've probably been manipulating in some way. Right.

John [00:41:41]: Because it wouldn't be flipped. It wouldn't be flipped. And it's what I was gonna say, oh, shit, I just lost the thing. But.

Nicole [00:41:48]: Well, I want to add one thing so Maybe it'll come back that you were talking about a woman telling a man, you're controlling, you're insecure.

John [00:41:56]: Right?

Nicole [00:41:56]: Here's the reality. Yes. Maybe you would try to have some sort of conversation with a man, like you said. Like, maybe you realize that some controlling behavior is happening, right? You should try to do it in the way that you talked about. Like, hey, when this happened, it made me feel this way. You should actively try to do it in that way rather than being like, you're insecure, like pointing the finger, Right? But the reality is, if you're with a man that is actually incredibly controlling or insecure, you would just leave, right?

John [00:42:27]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:42:27]: You wouldn't try to fix this person. And I know a lot of us men and women have a tendency to become fixer people, like, I can fix him, I can fix her. You know? So I'm not saying that that doesn't ever happen. You don't ever stay because you're like, I can see the potential. But the reality is, is if you actually think this person is controlling or insecure to the point where it's not good, right? You would leave the relationship because you would realize that this is damaging behavior. That probably isn't going to change because you can't change who someone is. So a lot of times when a woman is saying, you're being controlling, you're being insecure, it is manipulation. Because if that was the reality, the answer is to not reason with that person. The answer is to get out while you still can.

John [00:43:13]: Right?

John [00:43:13]: And I think there is, like, there's a couple things. There's a perception that's been propagated of this, of women cheering each other on for being like, women need to support each other when they go to strip clubs or whatever, like ridiculous stuff like that, or wear skimpy outfits and public. No, women don't need to support each other in that. They're cheering each other on in that. And that propagates this. It's like, this is okay and that's not okay. Cheering it on is part of the issue. It needs to be said, no, this is not okay. This is not what we do. We don't just cheer each other on when we're doing bad things. And then I think also that it comes down to ultimately, I always blame men, right? But. But I'm going to blame men here as well. Because ultimately, men are supposed to be the ones who are the authorities in the relationship, leading the relationship. And men are too big of pussies, and men need to stand up and not allow this kind of stuff to happen. Not allow it to keep on happening. So, for example, if you're in a relationship and the woman that you're in a relationship with is doing whatever she wants to do, and she's using this language and calling you, controlling it, insecure, you need to not be okay with that. You need to not allow that manipulation tactic to work. You need to be like, no, you can say what you want, but I'm not cool with this and I don't like this and I'm not gonna like it, right? And be like that. And then also just, just men in general don't allow this to work. Stop being insecure about being insecure, right? That's the big thing is because if you allow that to be an attack vector on you where someone can manipulate you, then you're propagating this situation. Because the biggest problem, like I said with that Mormon wives show, is that all these men that are husbands and they're supposed to be super conservative, traditional, they're just standing by and letting this shit show happen, right? They're not stepping up and saying, no, look, we're going to take our family and not be part of this stuff. Or saying, look, what are you doing here? This isn't. Do you think this is okay? You think it's okay to be, you know, jumping in the pool topless and whatever, and all this kind of stuff that they're supposed to. And they're supposed to be, like, highly religious, you know, none of this stuff is in their religion either.

Nicole [00:45:31]: It's obvious that they're not in.

John [00:45:33]: Going to the church, but these guys aren't stepping up. And if guys don't step up, and I know it's hard to step up as a guy when all the women are cheering each other on and ganging up on any guy that dare step up. But you got to have balls and step up anyway. And sometimes there are going to be consequences. And maybe, maybe if you're dating a girl and you step up and you're like, nah, this is not cool. Going to the nightclub with your friends, being in a serious relationship with me, I don't really want to date someone like that. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone like that. Maybe she leaves and she's like, oh, you're controlling and ridiculous and insecure, and you got to suffer that consequence. But you have to stand up for yourself as the guy because this behavior is being allowed. And that's why it's happening. Because if guys were like, no, there is no diva vibe that's gonna go on here where you just do whatever you want. It wouldn't happen.

Nicole [00:46:26]: Right. Well. And we should be thanking men as women who have overcompensated and have manipulated for even being with us. And the best way to thank them is to acknowledge all the things that I've said here today, because I know basically every woman at some point has done and felt the things that I've talked about has manipulated. But I'm. I'm. Again, I. I just want women to understand, because if I was a man, I would not. There's no way that I'd want to be with a woman who's like, I want to have my cake and eat it too.

John [00:47:04]: Right?

Nicole [00:47:04]: Because as a woman who was similar to, like, them, I didn't want to be with a man that was like, I want to have my cake and eat it too. And I wouldn't want to be with a man that's like, I want to have my cake and eat it too.

John [00:47:13]: Right?

Nicole [00:47:13]: Like, that's just not. That's not what I want. And so these women that are even getting men, or these men like you, who have stuck by women like me who aren't doing it to this extreme, but I was still manipulating you because I couldn't face the things that I was doing. I couldn't face that I was an imperfect person because I was so critical on myself. Like, the way that we thank men like you is by waking up and realizing this and acknowledging it and taking accountability and being like, you know what? Yeah, like, I care about your feelings. I care about how you feel. I can tell that you care about my feelings, and you wouldn't disrespect me or do something like that. I'm not gonna disrespect you and do something like that. Or if you're. We're in an argument and I feel like you're getting defensive, that I'm able to tell you that in a way that doesn't make you feel attacked. And you're able to tell me that I'm manipulating the situation. That doesn't make me feel attacked. And that, like, your relationship becomes so much better when you can do that. And so, again, like, if you have a man and you're listening to this and you're still together, and he's been, like, you know, showing up to all the conversations, maybe not in the best way, because, honestly, how do you even show up to a conflict in the best way when you're manipulating the situation? He's probably incredibly frustrated. And I'm not saying he's perfect either, but the way to thank him is to listen to this and do better.

John [00:48:44]: And just acknowledge it, I think.

Nicole [00:48:46]: Acknowledge.

John [00:48:47]: That's all that. Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:48]: Be held accountable and give yourself grace. Because the thing is, you'll keep manipulating. You'll keep doing a lot of this stuff if you're critical of yourself.

John [00:48:56]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:48:57]: And you have to realize you're human. You're going to make mistakes. That doesn't make you bad, it doesn't make you lesser. It doesn't make you. Whatever you're telling yourself in your brain, it makes you human. And your husband is also human, and he's going to make mistakes. If you're obviously in a controlling, abusive relationship, you do need to get out of. And I'm not saying that those things don't exist.

John [00:49:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:22]: But I am saying that as women, we've been so afraid of those situations that do exist, but we've been putting those situations on every man.

John [00:49:34]: Right.

John [00:49:34]: Striking first.

Nicole [00:49:36]: Right. Striking first. And then we need to realize we've been controlling them and we've been ganging up on them. And it's good to be a woman supporting other women, but it's not good being a woman supporting other women when they're doing the wrong thing. And that's, you know, I can still have love for women. I understand where they're coming from. I've been there. But someone has to rip the band aid off and, you know, expose the wound to the world, because that's what it is. Like, it is a generational wound that we're still carrying. And honestly, we're creating a new wound.

John [00:50:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:17]: And I'm not saying that this is the reason for poor behavior in men, but also, as women, we have to realize that it's not all men's fault. I know you say it all.

John [00:50:29]: It's goes back to men, but, like, they have the. It's more that they have the responsibility. Right. Women should take the accountability, but men ultimately have the responsibility. Because I was telling you about this as we're watching the show, and it's not meant to be in any way degrading or insulting, but women do need masculine leadership in their lives. Women who do not have masculine leadership in their lives will do some crazy stuff sometimes. Right. They need that guidance because it's the feminine. The feminine is more chaotic. Like, let's be honest, the masculine is more. More, you know, analytical and focused and Matt. And if you have a, you know, young women, girls need a father in their life, they need masculine leadership. Otherwise things don't turn out so. So good. Older women, still, they need to have some masculine leadership in their lives. It creates guidance and direction. That's what a man is for. A man needs femininity in his life. He needs that to embrace the moment, to not be so hard to understand and feel that softness. Like we need each other. But I think sometimes women are like, oh, no, I can do everything myself. Girl power. We've talked about this before and there's one other thing I wanted to say about.

Nicole [00:51:44]: Wait, I wanna say one thing.

John [00:51:45]: Go ahead.

Nicole [00:51:47]: I agree it's very important, but I think still it stems from being critical and here's why. My dad was very masculine figure. You know him, he's a very masculine guy. And he was in my life and he was, you know, always there and very supportive and still is. But I still did chaotic things at times. Not totally crazy and not like what these women are doing, but I did chaotic things. And I think it's more from women being critical on themselves. I think it's more them having to prove something. I think it's more that this, all this chaos comes from, like, trying to prove yourself that you aren't this. But you're doing these things to prove. Have other people validated. But see and try to convince you, but you can only convince you. And so that's where I think that women need to not be so critical and not have this super high level of perfectionism for themselves. Because a lot of times, even if you don't feel like you're looking for people's validation, you are, because you want that one person to tell you that you're not bad and that you're perfect. And you feel like that'll solve all your problems. That'll be the moment that you're like, I feel good about myself. But it never is. Because that one person has to be you. The one person has to be you alone, right? And that's it. And like, maybe you have somebody like you that helped me see that. But you could have told me and you probably have told me a million times.

John [00:53:31]: No, but it has.

Nicole [00:53:31]: It was the moment that I finally believed it myself.

John [00:53:35]: But why did you believe it?

Nicole [00:53:38]: Why did I believe it? I mean, I think because.

John [00:53:48]: Let me give you my.

Nicole [00:53:50]: Let me answer your question.

John [00:53:51]: Yeah, well, like, maybe because this. I think it still comes down to masculine leadership in the sense that elements. Yes, your dad's masculine, but some of the elements of masculine leadership that I think a woman needs in his life her life, especially with a husband, is not just the masculinity of being a masculine man, but the masculinity of creating emotional safety. Right, that's true. But also honest conviction in a loving way. And that is a lot of. Part of masculine leadership involves correction. And a good father, he corrects his daughter. I'm not saying that your father didn't correct you. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that. But in our parents, generations, they didn't really understand. I mean, the way that they corrected us, it was hypercritical, was with emotions and anger. And so what I'm talking about, about masculine leadership is that when you can provide correction and guidance in a loving way, incorporating and understanding the emotions, that's when you are able to get people to respond. And so I think there's a piece of that.

Nicole [00:55:08]: But who corrects the man, huh?

John [00:55:11]: Well, other men and authorities that we are accountable to.

Nicole [00:55:18]: Okay, so other men correct men.

John [00:55:21]: Yeah, I mean, masculine correction. I have been on the end of it myself many, many times. Even every. But see, because it's a natural process, when I get together with other men, what do we do? Like, my real friends, we correct each other. We provide masculine leadership and guidance for each other. Because I can guarantee, like. And it's the opposite. See, this way, a lot of women get together, right? Like, in that show, and they don't do that. They end up creating. They're not. They're not providing that masculine leadership and guide. They end up creating more care. They're backing each other on the wrong things.

Nicole [00:55:59]: If I, like, you know, because I've had some friends that are like, just tell me what I want to hear. And I'm like, that's just not who I am. You know what I mean?

John [00:56:08]: But real men, when they get together, if my buddy's doing something wrong, my brother's doing something wrong. Like, he's doing something wrong in his life, in his marriage, whatever. I can't just. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not gonna back you on this. Like, I'm gonna be supportive. But that's that masculine leadership that women do need in their lives. And I think as men, we do provide it for each other. Like, it's a natural thing for us to do. But women that don't have. That won't have direction.

Nicole [00:56:39]: I think women need to start holding their friends accountable as well, too. I agree, because like I said, I've never really gravitated.

John [00:56:48]: Gravitate. Gravitorted. That's a new word.

Nicole [00:56:51]: Gravitated. Towards gravitational gravitur Turtle. I've never gravitated towards women who are just like, can you just validate? Like, which I mean, like, okay, there's a difference between validating and like, condoning behavior that you know is wrong. Right? Like, you can still validate your friend and be like, I understand you feel that way by being like, but maybe like, you're also doing something to contribute to this. And I've always gravitated towards friends who, who have done that for me. And that's just the type of friends that I find valuable. Like, I don't want to be with somebody if I'm like, I keyed my ex boyfriend's car. They're like, hell yeah, girl. Yeah, exactly.

John [00:57:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:57:34]: Because at the end of the day, that's wrong. Like, no matter what somebody has done to you, like, that's just wrong. It's just going to make you feel bad. So like, even if my friends like, hey, I understand where you probably do want to Kia's car, but do you really want to potentially go to jail for this man? Like, that's the type of friend that I want. Rather than like someone like, hell yeah, sister. I'll meet you there at like three. I'm like, no, I don't want that.

John [00:57:59]: A lot of women will also in that situation. Again, this is where masculine leadership is the difference. But I'm not saying that women can't provide good guidance to another woman, But a lot of women in that situation would also use these words. They would say, I would never do that. And that's also not guidance or leadership. Right. It's like you're opposing it, you're not condoning it, but you're saying, I would never do that. Not me. I wouldn't do that. That seems kind of petty. I wouldn't do that. Again, I'm not saying in all cases, but I'm just giving an example of how you can still be in opposition to something but still not be in that place. Because it's again, it's a different world that we live in as men and women, and that's why we need each other, because we need both of those aspects of the masculine and the feminine. And yeah, a woman can show up and bring some masculine guidance to other women. It's true. But in general, women need that component for a woman.

Nicole [00:58:57]: Well, I don't think all guidance is masculine.

John [00:58:59]: No, no, not all guidance is masculine.

John [00:59:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:59:01]: Because I think you have the wisdom. You're going to give the wisdom. But yeah, I understand what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense, but I do, again, I think the biggest thing, though, is the critical. Yes.

John [00:59:16]: Said that the critical is.

Nicole [00:59:17]: Yeah, I had known that I was being critical of myself. You know that. And you told me about the manipulating thing, and I realized that. But when he said that, I think I realized that more women do this than I even realized. Right. Like, I knew I was doing it, and I know other people who've done it, but also women internalize that, and they don't show it to other women. So, like, people are probably like, I'm not going to project my stuff onto them. And maybe women are thinking that right now too. But I think when he said that, I was like, I think, honestly, if women are honest, all women at some point has done this. I'm not saying they're all still doing it.

John [00:59:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:59:59]: But all women at some point have been so critical on themselves that they don't even realize that they're taking it out on and manipulating everyone in their life. Not even their husband, just their husband, their children, like, their family members, their friends.

John [01:00:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:14]: Like, it's. It is happening. And so that's why I thought this was a very important topic to talk about, because when does it end? Like, I'm not gonna sit here and support women that have become the thing that they're afraid of.

John [01:00:31]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [01:00:32]: Because that's not what we're. What we should be doing.

John [01:00:35]: And it's not about bashing women. It's not about any of those things. It's about supporting it and understand just being real, just acknowledging. Because that's the. That's the cure to it all is just acknowledging fault, making a mistake. Like. And, you know, we've talked about it many times, but the biggest thing that I had always told you when we would into, you know, conflict would be, I don't care about any mistakes you make. You can make a thousand mistakes, you make 100 in a day. It doesn't matter. It's how you handle it afterwards, which is really the acknowledgment, like, just to say, oh, yeah, I messed up here. That's it. Because. And I really feel in my heart that most men are like that. Most men, their frustration is not. If women are afraid that men are upset that they'll make a mistake. And there are some men that are like that. But most men, their big thing is, like, I wish she would just acknowledge that she made a mistake, because I can forgive her a million times. I don't care.

Nicole [01:01:26]: I think women don't accept it, because I don't think they're afraid that men will see them make a mistake.

John [01:01:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:01:33]: I feel like that if they own up to a mistake, a man will see how bad a woman is inside the way she, like, categorizes herself. Does that make sense? Like, it's not about seeing the mistake. It's not about even seeing that she's not perfect. It's that a woman feels like he will see the version of herself that she's created in her own mind that is bad and is horrible and is unlovable and is not worthy. And then he'll see that, and he'll be like, bye.

John [01:02:06]: What have I said since the beginning of this podcast? That women's greatest fear is? Is that he'll see how truly ugly I am. Right. How truly crazy I am, whatever it is. Exactly. And it's true. I think that is true.

Nicole [01:02:20]: Yeah. But the thing is that, I mean, look at people who do act probably more morally bad, or what we would call bad. They still have people that love them, right?

John [01:02:32]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, apparently.

Nicole [01:02:34]: You know what I mean? So, like, just accept that you're a human being, that you're not as bad as you think you are. I also saw this other video on TikTok, and it was this sketcher guy, right? He was, like, sketching people in New York or something. But he would sit like this. Or. No, he wouldn't even look at them.

John [01:02:53]: Oh, okay.

Nicole [01:02:54]: They were back to back. But he would sit with the person and have them describe what they look like. And it was two women. And then the two women saw each other and talked for a little bit, and then they sat with the guy again, but they described the other person.

John [01:03:09]: Oh.

Nicole [01:03:10]: And so he drew two. He drew two of the same women. And the one where they described themselves looked so much worse.

John [01:03:18]: Oh, wow.

Nicole [01:03:19]: Than how the stranger perceived them. And he drew.

John [01:03:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:23]: And so it's like, we think we're so much worse than we actually are because we've been critical of ourselves for so long and that we have a choice. Like, you have a choice to murder somebody or not to, like, work on yourself or not. And so if you're doing all that you can and you're working to be the best version of yourself, you're doing better than a good amount of people who are still stuck in this place. And I'm not saying that they're bad, but I'm saying that they're stuck. And so, you know, we're not as bad as we think we are. And if we give grace to other people that we love that are not perfect. Why don't we give that to ourselves?

John [01:04:03]: Right.

John [01:04:04]: Well.

Nicole [01:04:04]: And that's really what we need to do as women, because we're not giving ourselves the love we think we are. All these women that are like, I'm gonna do what I want, and I don't care what anybody says, thinks that they're pouring all this love into themselves, but they're not, because they're stomping on everyone around them. And that is affecting them, whether they know it or not. It's creating more of that ugly Persona inside of them.

John [01:04:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:28]: Whereas if we just accept that we're not perfect, we love people deeply who aren't perfect. So why don't. Why don't we love ourselves deeply because we're not perfect. And I think when you let that go.

John [01:04:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:43]: The critical, like, ugly version of yourself that you've created inside of you as a woman, you can be held accountable, and you can create such beautiful relationships that make you feel fulfilled and so much better about not only yourself, but everyone around you.

John [01:05:05]: And I would say that it even starts from the outside that it's hard because people always say, love yourself, forgive yourself. Don't be so hard on yourself. But people try it, and they don't, and they can't. And I would say it's because if you show grace to other people, you will show grace to yourself, because you learn from that. If you can't show grace to yourself, you can't show grace to other people. But you start by showing grace to other people, because it's the judgment of other people that makes you judge yourself. When you get to a point as you. Cause I've experienced this myself. Is that I finally broke out of my shame when I started giving other people grace. And the more I gave other people grace, more grace I had for myself, you know?

Nicole [01:05:51]: Well, that's why I said, if you look at other people you love deeply and you know that they're not perfect.

John [01:05:57]: Right.

John [01:05:57]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:05:58]: Then that helps give you that perspective, because you're a thousand percent right. Because so many people are like, I can't just love myself.

John [01:06:03]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:04]: You know, because even when I was single and I'd be like, oh, I'm ready to find, like, a relationship. People would be like, oh, you just need to be by yourself for a while. And I'm like, I did that. Like, I've done that. Like, I don't. I don't think that's really what I need. So I get that, like, sometimes People are like, just, just love yourself like you said. I'm, I'm not trying to come across that way, so hopefully I'm not. But that's why I said if you look at people that you love, you deeply love, and you accept that they're not perfect.

John [01:06:30]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:30]: Why aren't you accepting that you're not?

John [01:06:32]: Well, because you haven't accepted they're not perfect yet. You love them, yet you haven't accepted them. When you start to accept them, then you'll love yourself.

Nicole [01:06:40]: Okay, then maybe, maybe that's what's missing. So giving people more grace will help you have grace for yourself.

John [01:06:45]: Yeah, I really think that that's true because I've experienced it in my life.

Nicole [01:06:48]: I think you're right.

John [01:06:49]: There was one last thing I want to say real quick, which was just on. It was just a quick note on the insecurity thing, which is just because I was thinking about the idea that when we like, attacking someone's insecurity is not good. Right. So like, even if you have a man that's insecure about something that you're doing, then calling it out and making him feel bad about being insecure, not a good formula for making a relationship better and helping someone. Because again, if every time that you are insecure, I've been insecure in our relationship, if I was like, made fun of you or like, don't be so insecure, I don't think that would be like the proper way that you would want me to handle you being insecure is to like, try to make you feel more. Exactly. And to, to understand your insecurity and to like to, to hear it, not to make fun of you for it or make you feel bad about being insecure. That doesn't make someone feel more secure. It makes them feel more self conscious, more insecure. And so when you use that as a manipulation tactic, it's a double cut.

Nicole [01:08:01]: To that person because that's the person you love too. That's making you feel more insecure. Right. When you're trying to be vulnerable.

John [01:08:08]: And do you want that person to share insecurities with you or do you want them to be afraid that you're going to call them insecure when they have insecurities? I would much rather you share insecurities with me than hide them.

Nicole [01:08:18]: Right.

John [01:08:18]: And I'm sure you would rather me share insecurities than hide them from you.

Nicole [01:08:22]: Yeah, everybody has insecurities. And if someone's being vulnerable with you about them, especially your partner, you should care.

John [01:08:31]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:08:32]: Like they're Obviously, like, if it's insane and, like, it's gotten blown out of proportion. But again, it probably did that because you didn't make them feel reassured earlier or, you know, they've gone through something really traumatic. But you can help that person, like you said, by handling it the right way.

John [01:08:51]: Because it's not usually their insecurity that's caused him to, like, it's how they're reacting to their insecurity.

Nicole [01:08:57]: Right.

John [01:08:57]: And it's. And if you can help them understand and be comfortable with their insecurity and reassure them, then they may not react in that way which appears to be controlling. Because when we feel insecure, we try to control situations so that we can feel secure. And so if we're given a space for our insecurity, then we are no longer going to be as compelled to control the situation by having it understood and being reassured. So that's why it's. It creates. You're creating more of what you don't want when you're attacking someone for their insecurity.

Nicole [01:09:29]: No, you're right.

John [01:09:30]: All right, we gotta run. I get my brace on so John.

Nicole [01:09:35]: Can bend his leg finally.

John [01:09:37]: But go check us out our new website, betterthanperfectpod.com pod yeah.

Nicole [01:09:42]: And leave us a review.

John [01:09:43]: Great episode. And I'm very proud of you, by the way.

Nicole [01:09:45]: Thank you.

John [01:09:45]: You're an amazing woman. And every day I'm more and more proud.

Nicole [01:09:49]: I just want to help women.

John [01:09:50]: I know, I know.

Nicole [01:09:51]: I want to help everybody, but, you.

John [01:09:53]: Know, but, yeah, so, yeah, I couldn't be more proud, couldn't be more blessed to have such an amazing woman in my life and wife and to grow together with you. So I love you.

Nicole [01:10:07]: And we love you.

John [01:10:08]: And we love you, too.

Nicole [01:10:10]: See you next time. Through every fault we find our way.