John: You can be vulnerable with a woman, but you should not be weak around a woman because that is not attractive. I think there's some confusion there. I think women tend to be repulsed sometimes by any of a guy's negative emotions. That's the lack of empathy part, whereas there's a natural part that's like, "Okay, yeah, he's supposed to be a man, and he is supposed to be tough." I saw another TikTok where a guy was like, "She wants you to be a soldier, but even soldiers get wounded. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than and perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way." Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. And here we are again, back again.

Nicole: Yeah, what's going on? I mean, there's that TikTok video that went viral about the American men and Russian men.

John: Yeah, so it's basically, they asked American men and Russian men what they thought about supporting 100% your wife, or your woman. I don't know if they said wife, but a lot of the German guys said wife, but one of them, or yeah, Russian, said that he lives with his girlfriend and he provides for her. So I guess, woman, just person, woman you're with. But all the Russian, I mean, in that video, I'm assuming that it's right, they didn't curate it right.

Nicole: Yeah, but the Americans were like 50/50, no, she's got to work, she's got to pull her share, and all this. And the Russian guys are like, "Yeah, that's what's expected of in the motherland." Like, they're like, "Of course I would." So, it just shows you, different culturally.

John: Well, and a lot of women in the comments were like, "Do you see how masculine these guys are presenting themselves?" You know, like, right. And some of them didn't even look like masculine, masculine in a sense of like, they didn't have huge muscles or like beards, or I don't know, whatever you would think of like manly features. Some of them didn't even have that, but the way that they spoke about providing and like protecting the woman that they're with made them appear more masculine for sure. Like, that mindset, the way that they were talking about it, gave them that masculine appearance. So even if you're not somebody that can get as buff as you and you're not 6 foot whatever, right, like if you have that masculine mindset, you can still come across very masculine in all the other senses.

Nicole: Yeah, and it just shows. I mean, it's interesting because Russian women are famous for busting guys' balls, right? They're being for being tough. Like, you, they'll run circles around guys. And this is why, is because they come from a culture where men are more manly. And so when they get here and they see American guys, and they're just like, "Okay, I can just push this guy over. I can just act like, you know, however I want to act, and he's going to just deal with it," and can just be difficult. Whereas in Russia, guys are putting her in check. They're like, "Nuh-uh, this is how this goes," right? Because those guys are acting more masculine.

John: Yeah, but that's also like the key, right? And I don't know if we talked about this on another episode, but we talked about like, saying, putting her in her place in a respectful way. And the thing is that if you care about your woman so much that you're going to provide 100% for her and protect her, and like, show how much you care about her, 'cause a lot of those guys' responses too, you could tell that they cared about the woman that they're with. Like, they didn't talk bad about them, they didn't call them lazy or whatever. And some of them even said like, "You know, if she doesn't want to work, and you know, she's not pursuing that, then I'm fine with providing for her." So, he still said it in a respectful way. And that's where I feel like American men get it wrong when they try to go that route. They think that, "Oh, in order to get a woman to like fall in line, I have to be abrasive and like mean," and be like, you know, that sort of way. And they're not showing the woman that they care about them, and that they put them on this pedestal, like we talked about. I think in the last episode, it was where like, you can't not value your woman and then also like boss her around, you know what I mean? Because like, no one's going to stay long-term in that. It's not going to be a happy relationship.

John: Right, the difference is when you show a woman you care about her, and then you also are like, "Hey, it's going to be this way 'cause I'm leading this relationship, and I'm the man." That is more well-receptive to women, when it's handled that way, in general. So here's a great example of that, actually. We saw a TikTok last night when we were doing some research with Dave Ramsey. He had a lady that called in, right, and she was asking about selling her house, but she had an abusive boyfriend that was there, and she had a kid. And he told her what to do. He said, "No, you're going to do this," right? He was very direct about, you could say, bossing her around, but that wasn't... But he cared about her. That's what, and it came from that, and he was very empathetic. And so, even though he was like, "No, honey, this is what you're going to do. You're going to do this," right, which is a very direct, it's a command, "Hey, this is what's going to happen," because he came from a place of empathy, no one was like, "Oh, he shouldn't be bossing her around." It's very clear that he's doing this for her safety, that he cares about her, that, you know, he, that it's not a power trip, it's not to show that he can just say things, or whatever. So, that, it's a, you know, they're not in a relationship, but in any context, when you're giving someone instruction, them knowing that you care and that it's for their good, is a prerequisite.

Nicole: For sure. So, yeah. Alright, well, let's get into the episode. This one is spicy.

John: Right, well, you're going to make people think it's spicy spicy, but it's not spicy spicy.

Nicole: No, it's not that kind of spicy. It's just, it's controversial. It is controversial, which is, "Women don't care about men's feelings." Now, this is such an interesting topic because it is definitely, if you look around the internet, you will discover that this is talked about quite a bit.

John: Right, sometimes in very negative ways, but it is a real problem. It's a real problem that guys struggle with. The idea of this episode came from, we had a comment on our Clips Channel, and a guy had said something like, "Talking to a woman about your feelings is like being in the desert with an empty water bottle," or something.

Nicole: Yeah, it's worse than when you start.

John: Men's experience, right? Most men would be like, "Yeah." And a lot of men in relationships have given up. They're like, "I'm just not going to talk to her about my feelings. I don't ever." In fact, there's a lot of advice out there that says never talk to a woman about your feelings. Right? And then women are like, "No, talk to me about your feelings. It's a trap." And then men do it, and it doesn't turn out good.

Nicole: Yeah, and then they never want to do it again. It gets used against them. They're afraid, they are vulnerable, and then it gets used against them multiple times. So, I think that's the big fear that men have. So, I think it's worth addressing in this episode to give some validation to this being generally men's experience. It's not to put down women because we already talked about validating women's emotions and even in other episodes, you've talked about it. So, it's not like we're saying that women's emotions never get validated. This is just more about the man's perspective.

John: Right. I feel like the top two things you see men complain about most is not having sex and not being able to talk to their partner or have the empathy from their partner when they're going through something. Because we're all growing and learning. There are so many things. The thing I wanted to start out with is an understanding of why women are like this. It's not because they're bad or evil. A lot of guys want to use that. I think there are a few different reasons. The primary intrinsic reason, not due to external factors, is because women often lack empathy, even though they think they have empathy. They think they're extremely empathetic, and that empathy is actually sympathy. Sympathy is when you care about something or someone, and empathy is when you relate to their experience, where you put yourself in their shoes.

Nicole: And because women generally are the ones who champion causes, they care about animals, children, what's happening in the world, and all those things, which are good. But often, women think that's the same as empathy, and it's really not, especially when it comes to men. Women usually haven't had to practice or utilize those skills. They haven't had to, especially attractive women, can get by without having very much empathy. I'm not saying that all attractive women don't have empathy, but they can get by with it. They haven't had to practice that skill set because they can get by on just being a woman or on their looks. Most guys are not going to check a woman, or they're going to check out. They're going to say, "Okay, I can't talk to her about this. She doesn't have any empathy, so I'm not going to get into a situation where I get hurt trying to be understood."

John: Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. And I think, too, with feminism and women becoming hyper-independent and competing with men, they also don't care as much about men's problems. Even if it's not actively in the front of their mind, we've been conditioned to be strong women and do things on your own. So, there are a lot of masculine women now, and they kind of are stuck where they express their emotions and their problems, and they expect validation. But then when a man expresses his emotions, they're kind of like, "You need to man up." So, they're kind of in more of a masculine frame when a guy comes to them with a problem, but they're still expecting their emotions to be validated and they're not doing the same for the man they're with.

Nicole: Right. And there's some truth to that stance, to a degree. As a man, it's not attractive for you to dump your emotions on a woman. She doesn't care that your ex-girlfriend broke your heart, for instance. That makes her less attracted to you, not more. As a man, you have to be guarded to some degree. There's stuff that you share with your guy friends, especially things around your weaknesses. There's a difference between weakness and vulnerability. You can be vulnerable with a woman, but you should not be weak around a woman because that is not attractive.

John: Right. I think women tend to be repulsed sometimes by any of a guy's negative emotions. That's the lack of empathy part. There's a natural part that's like, "Okay, yeah, he's supposed to be a man, and he is supposed to be tough." I saw another TikToker guy who was like, "Yeah, you know, she wants you to be a soldier, but even soldiers get wounded." And there's truth to it. But at the same time, are you out there being the soldier? When your mom dies, or your dad dies, or you have a traumatic experience, of course, you expect empathy and support and to be able to share those things because that's a really big thing that's happening. But it's every little thing and every little setback, and you're acting like a woman in terms of your emotional response to things, it's not going to be attractive. And you should not expect that a woman is going to show you empathy for and understand all of your feelings about every little thing. But you, as a man, need to do that for a woman. It's a different role. She can vent, she can dump all of her emotional baggage onto you, and you're supposed to be strong enough to handle that. But you don't really get the shoulder to cry on as a man. You still need to have vulnerable conversations and have a connection, but it's not the same.

Nicole: Well, yeah. I think if it's major life things that you're going through, you should be able to talk to your partner.

John: Things that would maybe make her afraid of the safety, you know, like her safety. If you're worried about providing safety, then she's obviously going to be worried about safety being provided for her.

Nicole: Then she might get more in a masculine frame because now she feels like, well, he can't handle providing the safety anymore or right now, so I need to do it for myself. That's why I brought it up because I do think it's a more masculine thing when women act that way. It is a masculine thing for a man to be like, just suck it up. Men talk to each other, and they'll be like, oh, well, this happened, and a guy would be like to another guy, just suck it up or just let it go, deal with it.

John: Yeah, and I think women also sometimes might get more masculine like that if, one, they are treated that way with their own emotions with their partner, and then two, if maybe he's doing it too much and he's appearing weak to her. She might try to toughen him up by being like, you know, just get over it, like you can figure this out or whatever, being less empathetic.

Nicole: Right, but like you said, because the thing is that empathy is a feminine trait. It is. I feel like women are more likely and more able to put themselves in other people's shoes because, like you said, they do typically care more about all the things that kind of pull at people's heartstrings. So when they aren't doing that naturally, they're not fully in their feminine in that aspect. And again, I do believe that women have been conditioned for a very long time to be more masculine. A lot of women are told when they come to their partner with their problems, just get over it, or I don't care, or whatever sort of masculine phrase that a lot of guys say.

John: Yeah, and so, you know, I'm not turning this into a woman thing, but they don't know how to do it right. Like, and like you said, it's like they either never had to learn or from the very beginning, they're being trained, you know, like you got to handle this yourself, and you got to go out and do the stuff and, like, know regardless of your emotions, you got to figure it out. So we're not even learning how to be feminine and truly empathetic from the very beginning.

Nicole: Exactly, exactly. And the thing about that is that it has to be modeled. So if you, as a man, haven't learned to validate a woman's emotions and to be empathetic to her and to not be defensive when she's expressing how she feels and looking to be understood, she's not going to have a framework in order to provide that for you. Look, there's nothing better as a man if you're struggling with this to be able to be confident and say, look, every time that you share something with me, a concern, and you or you have an issue with something that I'm doing that hurts you in the relationship, and you share that with me, I listen to you respectfully, and I don't defend myself, and I empathize with you and validate your emotions. Are you doing the same for me? I would like the same. That's a strong position. It's hard to argue with that position if you're actually doing that. If you're not, and now you're asking for this, then you already know where it's going to go. What about when I said this? What about when you... It's the defense saying, okay, well, you're doing this too, or you didn't do this right, which doesn't help anyone.

Nicole: But you know, that's another reason why women often don't care about a man's feelings, is because that's the more external one. We talked about the intrinsic one, which is that they feel like their feelings aren't being cared about, right? And they're the primary emotion being in the relationship. And if so, if their feelings aren't being cared about and their life revolves around their emotions and relationships, then it's really hard to have the patience and understanding to now listen to your man complaining and being upset.

John: Well, especially because their problems haven't been fixed. Like if they're in that situation and they're not getting empathy from their husband or their boyfriend or whatever, they still have all those problems. They're not fixed because he's dismissing them. So when he comes with a problem, she's like, I got 15 that we never solved, and you're coming to me with yours, and you expect priority of yours when you neglected mine? I'm not saying that that's the main reason that this happens, but it is one of the big reasons.

Nicole: Right, like I think we did a podcast with someone else, and we talked a lot about this too because men do have a problem with this. And not saying that it's their fault because there are definitely instances where guys do everything right, and women still mess it up.

John: Yeah, and we'll talk more about those instances too. But you know, you were talking about they have sympathy but not empathy. And, you know, I think it is how they grow up and like how society is. They just never really learn because they're more in a masculine frame from the very beginning. And like I've said before, women do have to learn how to take care of themselves, right? So it's not like you can totally avoid that, but we can still teach women empathy, right? And the strength in that and not allow them to be taken advantage of because that's why we push masculine on women anyway, right? So they don't get taken advantage of, or they don't get in a bad situation, or, you know, they can fend for themselves until they find the right person. They don't have to just go be with any man like back in the 50s.

Nicole: Right, so I think, you know, a good place to start is teaching our kids now, right? These things and how they're not weak, and they're not bad, and you should care about people and, you know, care about them and have sympathy but also have empathy for them. Like, imagine you're in their scenario, like really try to put yourself there. Which I know we'll talk about that too more. I don't want to like skip ahead, but yeah.

John: You know, and then men, you know, it is extremely hard for a woman, like you said, because she is the emotional being in the relationship, right, to care about your problems if you don't care about hers.

Nicole: Yeah, and I think an important point just for this whole podcast for anyone that's listening to it is to, when we talk about things, if you're a man, listen to what we're saying about what you can do. Because you might say, well, she doesn't care about my emotions. Why should I have to jump over all these hoops to do this stuff just to get her to... This is her problem, and she should be fixing it. Sure, I agree, but that doesn't help you.

John: Things that we're saying, and if you're a woman listening to it, then it's the opposite. Then you should be like, "Oh yeah, maybe I should be more empathetic. Maybe I should not focus on, 'Oh yeah, that's right, he doesn't resolve my issues,' and then go attack him." Instead, put that aside and be like, "Well, even if he's doing the wrong thing, I can do the right thing." Because I think that's what happens a lot of times. People will use stuff we say as fuel against the opposite, and when you do that, you're missing the point. The point is that everything you gain is for you, not to try and fix someone else. You can gently lead and guide, but that looks a lot different than trying to fix someone. No one likes to be fixed.

Nicole: This isn't to blame, you know, because it doesn't even really work unless both people are open-minded and realize what they're doing wrong. Nobody's doing the perfect thing, right? Even if you think you are, you're not. Like you said, there's plenty of things that we talk about that you can implement and try, and you should be because the only thing that you can change is yourself. You do have more influence on your situation than you think you do, but the only way is if you work on yourself. Not trying to force someone else to do something, not expecting someone else to do something when you're doing new things, but just doing new things to be a better you. We've talked about this all the time, and that's the only way you could really influence somebody. If you genuinely change for the better, you're going to act this way regardless of how somebody acts. Because that's the better way to handle it, period. Not because I want him to act different, not because I want her to act different, but because it's the better way to act, period, as a human being.

John: Exactly. And when you do that, that's where you're influencing, which is important. Along with that, instead of trying to fix or change someone, you can influence them by your actions and the leadership and you taking the first step. Then you can tell them directly what you want. "I want you to do this. I don't like this. I don't want you to do this." Especially as a man, this is one of the things I had further down, but that's one of the ways to handle the communication of it. But I wanted to finish up talking about why women sometimes lack empathy for men or don't care about a man's feelings. Another intrinsic reason, internal, is because women are fragile. A woman is like a glass ornament; you have to be careful. They don't have very much defenses. They're not as tough or thick-skinned as a man. A man's like a stone; a woman's like a glass ornament. So when you, as a man, try to tell a woman about how you feel or how she's hurt you or done you wrong, she's more likely to be defensive because there's not a lot of protection there. She doesn't have as thick of a skin, usually. And so that's something that you have to keep in mind. It's not a bad thing; the defensiveness part of it is, but you want your woman to be fragile, you want her to be delicate, maybe another way of saying it. You don't want her to be like a stone; you don't want her to be tough like you are. So you, as a masculine, should be tough. You should be able to take a little bit more. You should be careful when you're dealing with her, knowing that you do have to wear kid gloves, you do have to be a little more careful because she's more fragile. Because that criticism can go a long way.

Nicole: I forgot where it was, maybe it was something that we watched, but she was saying that if a woman says, "Oh, I don't like that lipstick," then she's never wearing that again. It's like, "Oh yeah," because it was about the breakfast biscuits. You did that with the breakfast biscuits.

John: Then I secretly ate them all. "Wow, you like these are so unhealthy. Why did you buy them?" Eats them all himself. This is a Costco box, mind you.

Nicole: I was just making the point that a breakfast bar is the same as a cookie.

John: But then I ate them for dessert or for snacks.

Nicole: We check the cameras.

John: I might have had one with my coffee because I can eat a cookie with my coffee. I'm an adult.

Nicole: That's funny. But the point is that a woman is more fragile, and so just you talking about how you feel is going to feel more like an attack unless you've created an absolute space of safety. And I think one of the breakthroughs in our relationship was when you finally felt like no matter what, no matter if you're at your worst, I was going to love you anyway, and it didn't change how I felt about you. I think that, from my observation, helped you to drop some of the defensiveness. Because once you had seen that and really believed that that was true, then that, I think—

John: Are we going into that part? Because if you want—

Nicole: Well, yeah. I do think a part of women being defensive, whether they know it or not, is they're afraid. They're afraid of their man having all these problems with her and then not wanting her anymore, and then leaving her or cheating on her or whatever it is. And I know this is more about men and their feelings, and they're going to be like, "No, women don't care," but they do care. Like, a woman will stay loyal to a man that she loves, and she is afraid of him changing his mind about her and not wanting to be with her anymore. Whatever or thinking that she's a horrible person now, and he thought that she was amazing when they got married, or you know, up until he started having all these issues with her. And I think women, whether they are actively thinking about that or not, and most of the time they're not actively thinking about that, it's just ingrained in them. So they're going to defend themselves and why they didn't do it wrong, and you know, that you did it too. So they could be like, "Look, then if I'm messed up, then you're messed up." Or, "No, I didn't do that. I'm still the perfect woman that you married." You know what I mean? Like, they're trying to preserve that. Because the more that you have to accept that you hurt somebody, the more afraid you become that they're going to leave because you keep hurting them. When in reality, everybody's going to get hurt no matter what. And sadly, if I'm being honest, unless you are in a secure relationship or have had a healthy relationship, people do leave you when you make mistakes, or they do treat you poorly when you make a mistake in your childhood, in other relationships. And so a lot of times, there is some sort of trauma there that is also perpetuating everything I just said. And I feel like, though, when you're in a secure—

John: Relationship and someone has proven to you that they love you no matter what you do, it can take a while for you to believe that, you know? Because all the other examples you've had, that's not the case. So, that's also perpetuated like I have to defend myself and like prove that I'm great because all these other people left, right? You know, so but and then when you finally realize, oh, they're not leaving because you've proved it, you know? You've yelled and vibrated and kicked and screamed or whatever, and like they're still there. Then you're like, and they love you more for it, right? I still don't know how that works, but I'm glad that it does. But that's when I feel like you really start realizing like, okay, I don't have to defend myself. Like this person loves me even when I make mistakes, even when I hurt them, they love me, and I don't have to prove that I didn't mean to do it or that they did it to me before or first. That you can just empathize with what they're coming to you and care that the person who loves you at your worst and through all your mistakes and is still here, still loves you even more. Why would you not care about them being hurt?

Nicole: Exactly, exactly. And what I always tell you when we have discussions about it, I was always like, it's the thing that I came to you about that I don't even care that's not even a big deal. It's how you responded that became the big deal.

John: Well, that's how women are too, you know what I mean? Like you've done it too. Like I'm not, I'm not doing that thing, but I'm just saying that like, yeah, no, that's it's common. It's what we do. Because I remember the apple cider vinegar gummies or something, and you're like, what, you're not even eating them, and I was upset, and I just told you I was upset, and then you got defensive about it, and then, you know, we went on the spiral. So, I'm not trying to do tit for tat. That was poor timing, but I'm just saying that like, you know, it's very easy, right? To when your partner's like, hey, this happened and it really hurt my feelings, to be like, oh well, this hurt my feelings that you did, or oh well, you did that not that long ago and whatever, you know? Like instead of just being like, oh, I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to do that, and giving them a hug and telling them you love them, right? You go straight to defending yourself, right? Which makes it worse because now it's now whatever you did that hurt them in the first place, on top of that, you're adding, I don't feel understood, right? Which is worse. It feels worse to be to have the person that you love most in the world not understand you or care about you, right? And that's, yeah.

Nicole: And that's why, even though like what you said is absolutely accurate and great, when women are trying to do this, to appear to be more perfect or to not be wrong, so they're defending themselves because they're afraid that they're going to be left or the guy's not going to like them anymore, yeah, it's actually the opposite, right? It's actually pushing them to not like you more. Because who, everyone knows this intrinsically, who do you like more, someone who is perfect and does nothing wrong, right? Or someone who genuinely apologizes, generally owns the things that they, you have a lot, like if you're, it's a movie, and you watch a character in the movie, and there's a character that's just perfect, they never do anything wrong, they're just perfect, you kind of, you actually don't like them, you kind of hate them, actually, right? They kind of drive you nuts, right? You're like, you got a case of the Mondays, like stop it, right? But if you have a character that is flawed, and but they own up to their flaws, and they're empathetic, and they apologize, or they, you know, they can recognize when they've done something, that person, that character is extremely likable. And so if you want to be more liked, be you know, and especially, you know, you've seen the little thing where the guy's like, a man apologizing, yeah, sorry, and then he's like, woman apologizing, nope, yeah, but I think it is like both, no, no, it is, but it's a caricature of it because it's men's like, the reason why that went viral is the same thing like this, the whole concept of this podcast episode is that men's experience in life is that women never apologize and women never own up to their mistakes, and they don't take accountability. And so if you're the rare gem of a woman that does, he's not gonna love you less, he's gonna love you more. He's gonna be like, wow, he's like, my wife actually owns up, she says she's sorry. Everyone else in the men's group is like, what, how did you do this, what, you know, they're going to be shocked because it's generally men's experience that that doesn't happen, which I feel like that does go still with them not apologizing and things like that goes into having this perfect persona, right? So that they think they'll be more likable, but like you said, it's when you're real, you're more likable. When you can admit that you made a mistake, you're more likable than acting like you never made a mistake to begin with.

John: Yeah, but going back a little bit to you said because we talked about this, and I think it's an important point to make, is people act like if you have bad communication, that will ruin your relationship. But what we've learned, you agreed earlier when I said this, but what I know for sure is that the surefire way to ruin a relationship is defensiveness.

Nicole: Absolutely, yeah, that's it. That's the number one because it's not communication, it's defensiveness. You can't communicate because you're both defensive, right? That's why you can't communicate. And so if you really want to have the best relationship you can have, you have to learn to not be defensive, especially women. Like you have to throw out that, you know, well, if I reason my case, it's like the time that women want to be logical, right?

John: Yeah, yeah, they want to logical you right when you're being emotional, and then men want to logical women when they're being emotional, you know? And that's not the time to do it. The defensiveness will just cause you to go into the crazy cycle. It causes you to have 8-hour conversations that could have been easily dealt with. And like you said, most of the time, be it man or woman, yeah, if they have a problem, they got hurt, or they want to talk to you about something, just acknowledging what they're saying and apologizing and comforting them goes a long way.

Nicole: Absolutely. It just, I mean, and it's just such good life advice in general. I think about this a lot and just to consider what would my life be like if I never defended myself ever again in my entire life to anyone. Peaceful, what, yeah, what would happen? Would like, what bad would happen to you? At what point do you defend yourself, and then it makes things better, right? Almost never. Maybe if you're accused of a murderer and...

John: You're like, "No, I didn't do it. I have an alibi."

Nicole: I wouldn't really even call that being defensive, though. That's just, you know, saying like, in that, trying to find the actual killer. But the majority of times, when people attack us or accuse us or say we did something, it doesn't mean we have to admit guilt, right? That's not the same thing. But if we just didn't defend ourselves, we would save ourselves so much trouble. People would like us more, we'd have better relationships, we would have a better life, you know? But for some reason, within all of us, we're like, "Oh no, I have to defend myself." You know what I mean? And it's a hard thing to break, right? We've both struggled with this, and we've made some good progress.

John: Yeah, you knocked on the good job on that.

Nicole: But what we have, because, yeah, I know for me, I'm a lot quicker to catch it. And the more that we talk about it, the more that I want it to be an automatic trigger that goes off in my head that says, "Wait, no, just don't say anything. Just don't reply to that. Just, in fact, don't say I didn't do that or I didn't mean to do that. Just say, and don't admit guilt, just say, 'Oh, you're upset about that. Oh, that made you angry. Oh, that made you feel unloved.' Just repeat back the feeling." That's not admission of guilt, and it's not defensive.

John: Yeah, well, I mean, too, I was thinking about what you just said, and you know, being like, "Oh, you don't have to admit guilt," and even why you were like, "Oh, you feel like this," like those are good things. But what is the harm of admitting that you did something wrong, even if you didn't, you know what I mean? Like that person, like you said, will probably love you more, even if you didn't do it and you admitted to doing it.

Nicole: That's a good point, actually. That does make sense. Like, obviously, if it's something like, you know, like it's completely like you forgot to let the dog out, and you left the dog outside or something, and you didn't, and the dog's standing right there, I'm not saying to, you know, be like, "Yes, I did leave the dog outside," the dog's standing there like, "I'm right here." But you know what I'm saying. If it's something that is arbitrary or not a concrete thing, then what's the harm in just admitting it, right? If it's something where it's like, yeah, like you said, like you stole my gun in Fortnite, you know it clearly didn't happen, then there's no harm in just owning up to it because a lot of times, it is something to own up to. It's just a perspective, right? It's like if someone says, "You were negligent about my feelings," or "You didn't care about how I felt," that's an accusation, and that might not be like, from your perspective, it was just an oversight. It wasn't that you didn't care; it's just that you didn't remember or whatever was. To just say, "You're right, I didn't care about your feelings," feels a lot better, and it's a difference in perspective, not a difference in actual truth, like letting the dog out or not.

John: So, I think you're right. I think that's actually pretty brilliant.

Nicole: Brilliant? I mean, I was just thinking about it. I haven't said this before now, but I think too, there is something important to, when you're the one expressing hurt, to also try your best. I get that it's hard when you're hurt, and a lot of emotions are being brought up, to express them as best as you can, and to be vulnerable. And you know, with us too, we talk about not saying things like "never" because certain words will try to trigger defensiveness more. You know, being like, "You never do this," and you know that there have been times when it has happened; it's just not happening enough for you. Instead of saying, "You never do this for me," be like, "Hey, I feel like you haven't been doing this very much lately," or whatever, and "I would like you to do more of it," is a better way to come about it than like, "You never care about me. You never do these things." Like, it's different if they actually never do, but most of the time, that's not even the case. And I'm not saying you have to be perfect, 'cause like I just said, you know, you should admit it, even if they say you never do something, and you know that you do. It's better to just own up to it because they feel understood and heard, and you know, they don't really mean "never," and they know they don't really mean it, even though they shouldn't say that word. But it's just better to try to be vulnerable, you know? Because at the same time, even if you're the one hurt, you shouldn't try to be hurting your partner. And that's the problem, right? Is like, people get hurt, and then they justify hurting their partner by like calling them names or like blowing up because they're upset or silent treatment or whatever it is. That's also wrong to do. That's why, like, you're not totally off the hook because you're upset. Like, that doesn't justify acting poorly. I know a lot of women act this way too when they get upset; they just do whatever they want, and they're like, "Well, I was upset." Like, that's not okay. It's not okay for anybody to do that. So, I don't want to say that if you're hurt, you get off scott-free because you don't. You're still responsible for how you react in your hurt, and in your anger, in whatever. And like we talked about earlier, you have to try to be the best version of yourself, and that means that even if your husband or your wife, when they get angry, right now, maybe they do still blow up and act that way, you should be trying to do the right thing and come about it the right way because you will influence them to also learn how to do that as well too. Like, I feel like as humans, we naturally are influenced to do the better thing, right? Yeah, like obviously, we can go down paths of doing wrong things and be influenced too, but most people will be influenced. I mean, look at children; they're more influenced by actions, and they can go to better actions by seeing their parents do better actions, right? So, you know, the power of influence, you don't realize.

John: How much power you have, and I feel like if you're stuck in these cycles, right, where you can't talk to each other, you're defensive, you act like we'll never get out of this, but you do need to try to do the best that you can because you can get out of it. And when you do, like you said, you'll have this peace, you'll have this healthy, secure relationship that you won't want anything to ruin.

Nicole: Yeah, exactly, yeah, 100%. And that's actually one of the points I was going to address, is how men can share their emotions to less trigger the defensiveness and where women will be more likely to empathize with them. I think there's a concept I invented called subtracting from the positive. So, if you present the way that you feel as a subtraction from the positive instead of a negative, so negative would be "I'm really upset with you," "I'm really angry with you," "I'm really disappointed in you," "I'm really sad." Those are negative instead, and those usually garner defensiveness because, remember, women are fragile, they're delicate. That is a direct, even though it's not meant to be a direct attack, it is perceived as a direct attack because "you upset me," "you are making me feel bad feelings," so "you must have done something wrong." If you, and again, that whole "if I continue to make him feel bad feelings, then he's not going to like me anymore, so I have to prove to him that I'm not making him feel the bad feelings, it's something else, and that I'm not bad, I didn't do anything wrong." So, the subtraction from the positive looks like "I feel less important to you because," "I'm not as happy with our relationship as I could be because," right? So, you're taking a positive emotion, and you're showing a subtraction from it. Here's what you know, and that might seem like it's just a little bit of a play on words, but I feel like it comes across less of an attack because women want everyone wants their partner to have happy, positive emotions, to be at the best that they could be. And so then they're more likely to think, "Well, what am I doing that's detracting from the maximum happiness?" as opposed to "I'm the perpetrator of a crime." It seems hopeless if someone's upset or mad at you, but if they're like, "I'm not feeling as loved as I'd like to feel because of these things," that feels hopeful. Also, they still could be right. I just need to address these issues.

John: So, that's one way I think to bring it, and then, like you said, obviously, you need to talk about it in a way that you're being careful with the words, not using the "always," "never," trying to avoid "you." It's always easier for anyone to respond in a less defensive way when the way that you're talking about what happened is your own experience because someone can't really defend your own experience. That's why I also kind of dovetailing into this, I tell guys to say "I want this," "I like this," "I don't like this," "I don't want this." It's almost like a toddler, it's like "want," you know, because it's hard to argue with what someone likes or wants. It's hard to argue what someone says they don't like or don't. If someone says "I don't like this," how can you defend against that? They're telling you what they don't like. They're not saying that you did something wrong, they're just saying that "I don't like it."

Nicole: Right, or "I do like this," "I do want this." So, it tends to make it so that someone's going to be less defensive, and then now you can communicate your point. And again, a lot of the times where guys get butt hurt, and I have gone through this myself, I've done the same song and dance, it's not being direct and dropping hints and expecting that the woman, you, and then when you're dropping hints and then nothing's happening because you haven't asked directly what you want, you get, you start to boil over, you're getting upset, you're like making a list, you're like "doesn't care about me," you know, it's like "still doesn't care about me," as opposed to if you say "I want you to do this," "I would like this," right? Uh, then you don't get into that mode.

John: So, yeah, I mean, I feel like you hit on a lot of the points. I can't think of anything to add to that at the moment.

Nicole: Yeah, I would also say, what to share, we talked about this a little bit, but to come back to that also, is you don't want to share, as a man, the things that are negative and that display weakness. Those you share with your buddies, those you share with, you should have a good group of men that you talk to, or at least some confidantes that you talk to. Instead, you share the relationship issues, that you need to work on, or things that if your woman has done something that harmed you, you share that issue as opposed to your general upset, crying about everything in life. That's not the, you can't really expect a woman to have to care about all of your little things.

John: Yeah, yeah. I think that, I mean, she cares, but you can't expect that kind of response. It's overwhelming because she cares about all the little things going on in her life, her husband's life, like the ones that she knows about, right, and her kids' life.

Nicole: Yeah, so, you know, if you start adding more little things, then now that's just more that she cares about. Like, you don't think that she cares about you, but she does.

John: Yeah, and I'm sure if men looked, they'd see other ways that women show them that they care. But men, just like any human being, want their feelings validated. So, it doesn't matter if she does little things for you, and it doesn't even matter if she initiates sex or whatever. I genuinely feel like if a man or woman's feelings aren't validated, it's not sustainable. Like, no matter if he's romancing you but he's not validating your feelings, if she's sleeping with you but she's not validating your feelings, like you said, you want to feel understood by your partner, and you want to feel like they care about your feelings.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of guys complain, they always say, "I do all these things for her, I'm always there for her, I am helping her work through her issues, and there's never space for me." And, you know, and I get that, but at the same time, as a man, a lot of things that you do have to suck up as a man, that's just how it is. And even though it seems unequal, it's not supposed to be equal in that way. Right, obviously, you need some level of support. You want a woman to support you and to care about you and to show that she cares about you, but it's never going to be the same.

John: You're not going to be a woman, right? She's going to cry on your shoulder; you're not going to cry on her shoulder. I mean, sure, something really traumatic in your life happens, that's a different story, but in general, don't try and make it equal because it's not going to be. You have to still be the man, you still have to suck it up at the end of the day and be the strong one.

Nicole: Yeah, and sometimes it can feel like because you're strong, people take advantage of you and they feel like you don't have any emotions or any feelings because you're strong, and that's not true. And that's tragic when that happens. You have to understand that that's going to be a majority, and that's also why women don't have as much practice. So, you kind of have to, again as a man, as a leader, you have to treat a woman that you're in a relationship with as you're helping guide and lead her. And so maybe she doesn't have the skills of handling your emotions, and so you don't need to get upset at her because she doesn't have those skills, but you can be patient and help her develop those skills by clearly communicating, by being vulnerable, by saying, you know, when I come to you with something and you respond this way, it does affect me, it does make me not feel as important, those type of things.

John: And if you handle it that way, then you're going to move more in that direction, but it's never going to be the same. That's the thing I think that men have to realize, and it's okay. It doesn't have to be. That's why you are the man, and you have to take pride in being the man and being the strong one. But they'll feel better, I feel like, when they at least get the validation and the empathy from their wives on the times that they do come to her.

Nicole: Yeah, and to recap for women, you've got to let go of that image of trying to be perfect or trying to defend yourself so that he'll love you, and you won't look like you have flaws, and he won't leave you. And I think another big thing that could help women do this better is to not take it personally. And I'm not saying don't take accountability for the things they aren't or they are doing. I'm saying to separate those things because even with men, this is also where men slip up with this, right?

John: Is that a woman says something, and then they take it personally.

Nicole: Yeah, and then the defensiveness starts, and that's where the defensiveness starts when someone comes to you, and you take it personally. So, if your husband comes to you and he's like, "Hey, I'm upset that you're not doing this," or however he says it, instead of being like, "Oh, but I am doing this," and taking it personally, you can listen to what he's saying and be like, "Okay, he wants me to do more of this," is what he's saying, right? And then just apologize for making the mistake while noting that you need to do more of this, and not allowing the "you're not doing this" to be a personal thing where you're like, "I need to defend this that I have been doing it, and he didn't notice," or "I have been doing it, and it's a lot in my mind, but he's not appreciating it," because you could go off so many ways. So, not taking it personally, hearing what he's saying, so that you can help not upset him right in the future, but also not taking it personally and not allowing it to define you, right? Because it doesn't have to define you, like him saying, "Hey, you're not doing this," does not mean you suck or like, "I hate you because you're not doing this," or whatever, like in your mind that you're like, "Oh crap, like I'm not, he's upset with this, and I'm not doing it, that makes me a this type of person." That's not, that's how our brain goes without even really thinking about it, and you have to try to stop that. Like, I'm not saying don't care about what he's saying because you do still need to listen to what he's saying, and you do need to try to work on it because you care about him and you love him, but at the same time, do not take it personally what he's saying, right? And he shouldn't, vice versa. Like, if you don't take it personally, you won't get in that defensive mode, and that's why a lot of times just apologizing, whether you did it or not, is going to be the better way to handle it than trying to justify yourself and trying to defend why you're right and they're wrong. Like, that never, especially in a relationship, a romantic relationship, nobody should be keeping score. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, it doesn't matter if you made a mistake and then you made another mistake, as long as you own up to it and as long as you're acknowledging it and taking accountability, that's all that really matters, and you're working on that, exactly.

John: And it's everyone is living in their own delusion, that's the way to think about it. It's their emotional experience; it's not the absolute reality. You have your own emotional experience; they have their own. And so, like you said, it's not a reflection of you necessarily, it's what they're feeling about the thing, which may make sense and may not make sense. There, I forgot where I heard this, but maybe it was a Tony Robbins seminar or something, where he was like saying that when you say something to someone, say, "In my delusion, I felt like when you did this, that you were right," or whatever, right? In my, you start by saying "my," and I don't know if you need to say that, but just thinking about that concept of when you say something, that you're kind of helping it by saying, "In my delusion, I, you know, you're acknowledging that I felt this way about this thing," and it's, it doesn't mean that you're wrong, or that it's just, "Help me, help me with this thing," right? Because how many times have we all of us laid in bed at night and come up with all these things to be upset or worried or whatever about that don't even exist, right? It's just, we just went on, women do a lot more, but men can also do it too, but people do this thing, and then pretty soon, you've built up this entire world that doesn't exist that you're upset with someone or upset about, exactly.

Nicole: And so, you got to realize when someone comes to you with something, that's what a lot of times they've built up some kind of world. It's not just acknowledging their world does not, and how they feel does not make that it's reality, and you did something wrong.

John: Yeah, and it's easy to spiral when you're upset, right? Because you're in this kind of negative place anyway, so it's very easy to be like, "Oh, he did this, so that means he doesn't love me, so that means he doesn't want to be with me anymore, so that means he's going to ask me for a divorce," and that means, like, you can go so far when it's not even close.

John: To what now? You've gone down the wormhole exactly. Yeah, so yeah, hopefully, this has been beneficial to everybody.

Nicole: I think that's good. I think that, yeah, I want to address it because, like I said, it's something that is a lot of men's experience, and yeah, they do talk a lot about it. And I feel like a lot of times it's dealt with in a negative way, and it doesn't have to be. And the other thing I was going to say is that men a lot of times lose hope and think because I hear the advice out there, and I understand it, and in some context, it makes sense of don't share your emotions with a woman. In general, when you're first dating a woman, that's probably correct, don't do that, right. But when you get into an intimate relationship, you don't want to have a partner that you keep at arm's length, right? Because you don't want to deal with the fallout of like, if you really want to be close and build intimacy, you cannot as a man say, "I'm not going to share emotions with a woman," right? You have to figure out a way to be able to do that in a limited fashion. You're not sharing every single thing that you're worrying about or feeling. That would be overwhelming and is not good. But don't check out and don't listen to that advice and think that that's what it is. Go watch our video on how to be vulnerable, exactly, 'cause that's the right way to do it.

John: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so there is hope. There is hope.

Nicole: All right. Well, yeah, I don't think we have... I mean, we still have to come up with the new... There's good news and there's bad news. The good news is we don't have anything bad to talk about, but the bad news is we don't have anything bad to talk about.

John: Yeah. We were thinking about doing like a dance, a song, a dance. John was thinking about doing a dance, Yoshi 2.0. Oh my gosh.

Nicole: But yeah, we'll have to think of something for an end segment maybe besides just our pleas for people to leave reviews that fall into fears. Yeah, please, no more banana fingers.

John: Yeah, but yeah, I don't know. I don't got to... Well, maybe if you guys have ideas, what would you like to see of it? Maybe we can do like personal trivia or something.

Nicole: Personal trivia, right. Like things that you didn't know about us.

John: Oh, well, we can do that right now. Okay, what... You go ahead. You thought of it.

Nicole: Two truths and a lie? No, that's a little more complicated. What, uh, what personal trivia... Just do like a fun fact that people wouldn't know about you.

John: What about that you play Magic the Gathering?

Nicole: Oh yes, okay. There we go. I used to play Magic the Gathering. It's the greatest game ever, in... Well, and you taught Sophia. You guys played a tournament.

John: That's true, not that long ago.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, it was... Yeah, the Lord of...

John: Yeah, so there you go.

Nicole: Okay, that's different. Lord of the Rings one's different. I mean, it's, you know, it was a new set that came out. So, my fun fact, yeah, I used to have my motorcycle license. I got it when I lived in Florida, but then when I came to California and had to get a license, they just took that thing right off. But I also, fun fact, I never owned a motorcycle, never drove one in Florida because horrible idea, and also California does not seem like the place to drive a motorcycle either.

John: Yeah, maybe North Dakota or something like that, wide open spaces, or Montana.

Nicole: All right, well, that's it for this week. We'll see you next time we find our way.