John: Sign the paperwork when you've given up on trying to fix the relationship or improve it. If you're still actively trying and working on yourself and the relationship, and then she leaves you, I'm empathetic to that. That's her giving up, not respecting the vows, and that's not cool at all. But that's a rare case because what ends up happening is that you've stopped working on it. You've just accepted the status quo, and it's not good. She had been working on it for some time, and then when she's finally done trying to work on it, that's when she actually does the thing. Through our flaws, we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault and find our way. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. There we go. And we're in not better than perfect weather right now, but it's okay because we're in the Maldives. So even when it's raining, it's still amazing. And we've seen a lot of animals swim by.

Nicole: Yeah, we just saw a shark.

John: Yeah, we saw a shark, and then this morning, I saw a huge stingray right out there and tons of fish.

Nicole: Yeah, it's been pretty crazy. We were on a long trip for 3 weeks. We're still on it.

John: Yeah, we're on a long trip. But we went to San Francisco first for a couple of days, and then Singapore, and then Thailand, and then here, Maldives, two resorts in Maldives.

Nicole: So this is our first one. This is the only one we're staying in an over-the-water bungalow, unless for some reason we want to do it again. We might upgrade, but we're staying in a villa, like a private beach villa at the next one. So I think we'll like that as well too. So we'll get to see both sides of it.

John: Yeah, but unfortunately, this is the monsoon season in the Maldives. So, you know, we were expecting that this could happen, but we have had pretty good weather.

Nicole: Hopefully, you know, this will be really the main day where it rained. And this is kind of the best time to shoot the podcast. I mean, when it's really sunny out there, it would be ideal if it wasn't drizzling. It's not full-blown raining, but we are getting rained on right now to bring you guys this content. So, you're welcome. If it were really sunny, we'd be snorkeling, though.

John: That's true. We haven't got to snorkel. We swam yesterday when the sun was out. The water is so warm. It's really nice and it's really clear. I mean, right now, it's rough because it's stormy, but it's really nice. But yeah, so what was I going to say? Well, I mean, I guess the small talk, I mean, that is kind of the thing that we're doing as we're traveling. But there's been a lot of, I guess, the most viral thing has been the whole episode we did where we had the clip about how women won't leave a man they highly admire. And men forgot that part. And I said that men would. So, I think the simplified version of it is that if a woman feels good in the relationship, she's not going to cheat; she's not going to leave. If a man feels good in the relationship, there's still that chance he might still cheat.

Nicole: Right, and it's not to bash men. It's not a knock. It's just we just happen to know that that's true because that's just how we're wired differently, men and women. Men might seek that when they're perfectly happy in a relationship. Women, being perfectly happy in a relationship, are not going to jeopardize the relationship. That's just how it is. So, yes, if men want to make the argument that it's hard to keep a woman happy in a relationship, I agree with you. It is hard.

John: But I guess since we're talking about it, 'cause me over here, I would say if a woman's doing everything right and he's happy, I would say he's not actually happy then if he would still cheat on her and throw it all away. So, what about it, a raindrop just fell directly in my mouth. What about it, Maldivian rain? What about it, uh, like causes that to happen, you think? What comes from a man? I want a man to explain it because, like I just said, I would say that he's not happy then. And that's what, when I coach guys, I talk about this subject a lot, as you can imagine. It comes up quite a bit for almost every guy. And there's even books that are dedicated to this topic. There's a book called "The Game" by Neil Strauss. You probably heard of that. It's sort of the thing that started the game, the pickup sort of. But he wrote a follow-up book called "The Truth," which is a very long book where he tried everything because he had success with women, picking up women. And so, he was like, "Alright, let me try a monogamous relationship, let me try a threesome relationship, like a house where he had multiple girls, let me try a totally open-ended." He tried all these different things, and then he went back to a monogamous relationship, and then he kind of pretended to be happy, but you knew he wasn't. So, it's like he was like, nothing really works, right? It was sort of, but it was this exploration of these things that a lot of men think about. And so, what I think it comes down to, and the reason why I'm saying that is, and it's what I said in the original video and in the original clip, is that it's not about the woman; it's about the man. Now, yes, if a woman is not having sex with her man, her husband, whatever, and he's definitely going to cheat, there's no question about it. And I wouldn't even blame him in that case. I mean, he should leave, obviously. But you can't, the woman can't be upset if she's, I mean, you can be upset for somebody cheating because it's the person, man or woman, it's the person's responsibility that if they're not getting something that they desire in a relationship, to leave. So, but I understand what you're trying to say is like, if you are not bringing something to the relationship that is vital to one or the other person, and that's just like when women cheat because a man's not making her feel loved, then that's why she's going to go look for it elsewhere. So, you're saying that when that's lacking, it's understandable that the person will go look somewhere else or find it in someone else. But cheating is never okay, which is not what you're saying, but I just need to clarify for all the people who are going to misinterpret this.

John: Cheating is not okay. It's that when you get to that point, man or woman, it's your responsibility to leave. To have a discussion, obviously first, exactly, and then leave if you're still not getting what you want from that person.

Nicole: And that's the analogy you see. A big fish or something?

John: No, there's... I don't know what that is, but it looks like a tire. There's just random things also floating by because the storm earlier was really bad.

Nicole: And there was like a plank of wood or something in the water earlier. But that analogy is interesting. It's the one that you had mentioned before that I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about before. Which is that, and this is something that I think is going to bake a lot of people's brains here, is because guys understand very well that if a woman is not giving him sex in a relationship, then him cheating is not a surprise. Again, he shouldn't, but him looking elsewhere, right, duh, you know. But men get really upset when a woman says her emotional needs aren't being met and they say that's what they justify for cheating. Which again, we talked about the cheating, it's still not good. But the way that you described it is actually more accurate. It's not just emotional needs. It's the analogy of a man not getting sex, he feels justified to cheat. A woman not getting love, feeling love, she feels justified to cheat or leave. But that's also why they like to use the statistic of women...

John: Filing for divorce more often than men. Because if she's lacking that love, a woman isn't necessarily going to cheat because that's not what love is about, right? Like, yes, some women still will cheat. I'm not saying they never do it. But if you're lacking love, right, like you're not going to go cheat. Cheating is not an act of love, right? So they'll file for divorce first to make themselves available to find somebody that loves them for who they are and will give them that love, right? And that's what men don't seem to understand.

Nicole: Yeah, some men don't seem... right, some, some. Sorry, again, trying to say... But yeah, but where I was getting to with that whole thing is that, that's the simplified version. If a man hasn't conquered his own demons, so for example, you have a perfectly good guy, he's in a great relationship with a woman, right? But he's only ever been with one woman and he has self-confidence issues. He doesn't know if he could get other women. He hasn't had that external validation. He doesn't have the internal validation from it. He doesn't have the esteem himself. He's likely to cheat. Doesn't mean he will, but he's likely to because it's about him. It's not about her. There's nothing that she can do. She can make his life as great as possible, and I think that would influence to a degree, but ultimately, what he's going out to do is to face his own insecurity. It's not about her, right? And so again, it's not a justification for it. I'm just saying that that's why that exists. Whereas on the flip, it's not quite true. A woman, from childhood, most women are looking for... they want a wedding, right? They dream of their wedding day. They dream of their White Knight, their guy, their Prince Charming. And they don't need to have multiple Prince Charmings, right? If they find the one, they're happy. They're looking for their soulmate. They're looking for that. Whereas it's different for men. Men are valued by their ability to get women, their ability... like, they gain some amount of esteem from those things. And so if a man hasn't conquered those demons within himself, there's almost nothing that a woman... So a woman would be wise to vet a man based on his characteristics. And that's also why I think it's funny because a woman with little sexual experience, like a virgin, is appealing to a man.

Nicole: But a man virgin is not appealing to a woman. A woman does not want... no, she's not...

John: Impressed by a guy's sexual exploit, but she doesn't want to marry a virgin man.

Nicole: I mean, I think if he was a good man, that wouldn't matter that much.

John: Maybe not, but women are not... If a guy says that he's a virgin, that's not an attractive trait. It's not going to make her not want to be with him, though. Like, if he has everything else and he's a great guy and all of those things, that's not going to be a deciding factor. There's some part of a woman, I would think, that instinctually would say, if this guy doesn't have any experience, it's a danger.

Nicole: I mean, and it might not be complicated because I would say it's more dangerous for a man to never have had any relationship experience versus never have any sexual experience. Because it could be like a religious thing, is the reason that he's not...

John: If it is like an involuntary celibacy thing, then he's probably not going to have all the other things anyway. So yes, like, but that is not... like, if a man only had that virginal issue, right, and he had everything else, it would not be an issue. Like, a woman actually, like, let's say he was a Christian and he wanted to wait till marriage. I think a woman is more attracted to that.

Nicole: Okay, I could see that. That could make sense.

John: Yeah, I could see. I think that that is the only instance that this would ever even really happen. Because like I said, if a guy's like involuntarily can't have sex, right, he doesn't have the personal development and the other key components that make a man a good husband. So he's going to get rejected for those reasons, not just the virginal reason.

Nicole: Yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes sense. But yeah, I get what you're trying to say, though. But yeah, I think it's just more complicated because I don't think a woman would... I understand what you're saying, though, in the sense of like, that's why I said if he has never been in a relationship, which that I feel like I've actually had friends that have run into men that they're the first relationships and it's always a dumpster fire.

John: Yeah, like, that's not... If a man hasn't really had a relationship by definitely his late 20s, that's a red flag.

Nicole: Yeah, like at least some sort of one. It doesn't have to be a long one, exactly. Something that he's tried to be a boyfriend. Because otherwise, you're having to train this man, and rarely ever does it ever work out where you end up together, and you were his first boyfriend or girlfriend that late in life, you know?

John: I can see it working with like high school sweethearts because you're both kind of growing, you know? And that's your first girlfriend, and you know, like you're figuring things out together, right? So that could work because it does work in some instances. But if you're like, you know, a woman in your early 20s, mid...

John: If you're in your 20s and meet a guy who's in his late 20s or early 30s and he's never had a relationship, it's a big red flag. That's where that whole "he marries the next one who comes along" comes from. Women always complain that a guy they break up with, or who breaks up with them, marries the next one. That's another situation, but that's why it happens. A lot of times, it's because if a guy doesn't have relationship experience but then gains it with you, learns, and now he's ready to actually be in a real relationship. But you don't want to be the trial, the test dummy.

Nicole: Especially not with men. Women, I feel, are a bit more intuitive. As a man, if you've been in relationships and you meet a woman who's never had a relationship, which is not usually the case, but let's say that you did, it's more instinctual for them. Women have been navigating interpersonal relationships their whole lives, whether it's been a romantic relationship or not. Men have not, not to the degree that women have, and they care more about those sorts of things, pay more attention to them.

John: Everyone gets all upset about that, and I get it. I get why a lot of guys are upset about that. They're like, "Oh, the statistics say that," and I get that. A lot of people understand the statistics. Literally, a lot of my content before we started making content together highlighted the dangers, the things that men need to know. Women do initiate most divorces, which is kind of what we're going to get into today. Why are men afraid of women? The issue with the statistics is that men use them to perpetuate their own narrative a lot of the time.

Nicole: And I do want to say men because I've yet to see a man use a statistic and, in the same breath or same video, try to find out why that statistic is the way that it is. They're normally like, "Women leave men more. Here's the statistic." But you can put whatever you want on it, or you can just say, "Men leave or women leave the majority of the time," to scare men to never get into relationships. When if you look into what the statistic is actually measuring or try to find out why this is the case, then you're more prepared to not be part of the statistic.

John: Exactly. There are also statistics out there about how likely you are to be in a car accident, which is extremely high. Do we not drive cars? You should have factual, statistical information when you make decisions. However, a lot of what men who use statistics as their justification are doing is fear-mongering rather than actually offering the statistic, diving deeper, like what does this actually entail? Why is this happening? Because the reason women divorce men, and we'll get more into it, is for reasons that men act oblivious to in the instances. Some of it is they just genuinely don't think the same way as women and don't recognize, which in a woman's mind, you're like, "How the heck can you not recognize that you're ignoring me or not showing me love?" Which then hurts them even more. They don't even think to understand the situation fully because they don't even understand it when it's happening.

Nicole: Because they don't see it. Just like women have blinders for different things that they don't see that they're doing, men have those blinders because you're viewing it from your perspective. The biggest problem that causes problems in relationships is that men think women think like men, and women think men think like women. That's the biggest problem because that's false. But you're right about the statistics. Hopefully, we can unpack it in this episode and show what's actually happening. When you say that 90% of divorces are initiated by women, that can be a true fact. But the interpretation a lot of men are taking from it, just because that happens, doesn't mean that if I said 99% of people that jump out of planes die, well, the 1% that wears a parachute don't die. And 99% of those people that jump out of planes survive because they have a parachute. So, the question is, if 90% of divorce is initiated by women, why is that the case? It could be because women are horrible and get bored with men and just leave a good guy for no reason because they're bored. But that doesn't mean that's the answer. The answer could also be that men are afraid to leave bad relationships, or a combination of that, and they don't understand that their relationship is bad for the woman.

Nicole: I want to add one more thing before we go into it. You can see how certain men do this by the video we started talking about in this episode, where I said women who admire the man they're with. Men ran to the comments and chose to talk about women who cheat and things like that, rather than talking specifically about the type of woman I was talking about. That is exactly what they do with the statistics. It goes to show they will do that with any sort of information to push their narrative. It's almost like manipulating information in order to push their opinion or their idea, which, as humans, is a natural thing. However, you do have to own up to the fact that you have taken something specific and turned it into some generalization that you made up as a man upset about this topic.

John: And your qualifier was the parachute because you said admire. So, those are the women with the parachutes. Those are the women that are happy in marriage, doing the things they like, that they want in a woman. Just like you'd be shocked if someone who jumped out of a plane with a parachute died, you would be shocked if a woman who admired the man she was with cheated. It would be shocking. That's why it's important what you said. It does matter.

John: I admire you. That I can accept. Okay, and if you say, "Okay, well, most women don't admire them, and they're with," and that's why I can accept all of that, right? But none of the comments were like that. Right, but the thing is, and that's why we've made this show, is to help both men and women. It's a show that's right, like, is my phone going in the ocean because I'm afraid? It's to help both men and women to actually be able to understand these things. So that a man can actually understand how to get a woman to admire him, how to vet women that don't, and get rid of them early on if that's going to be the case. Right, and the same equivalent for a woman to vet a man, to find a man that will actually take care of her, that will actually step up and be a man and be a good man. So that's why we're not trying to create animosity. We're not trying to create this to shit on men, and we're not trying to create content to cause drama or controversy. Like, we pride ourselves in being very real, right, about all of the things. So, you know, anybody's going to say things that upset people sometimes, but we're not just trying to get views. We don't make money off of this. Like, I love men. That's going to be... But no, I love to help men. They're my brothers, right? And you love being a man.

Nicole: Yeah.

John: And I want to help them. That's my whole life, is dedicated literally to helping men, right? You know what I mean? So I'm not the enemy. But the way that I'm helping them is to help them realize that a lot of the stuff, unfortunately, that they've been taught in the last few years on the internet, is not entirely accurate. There's some truths that are baked in there, just like any good cult, any good deception. A charlatan will give some truth in order to hook you in, right? And that's what's happened to a lot of these guys. So they believe these things, hook, line, and sinker. And I'm saying, look, I understand all of that information. I'm an expert in that information. Believe me, I know the guys who originated the information. I used to hang out with those guys. I know them well. I've talked to all of them. I've hung out with all of those guys. So I know exactly all that content, and I'm telling you, it's not correct, and it's deceptive. And this is why, you know, again, and the same thing I would say too, before we get into the real meat of the episode, is that we had another clip where women were super upset. So it's not just men because we said in that clip about that a woman should submit to her husband, that she should, uh, in the "Surrendered Wife" episode where we did a whole episode on that, and women got upset. And they're mostly upset about the word. And you said that even the author of that book, right, wrote a different book with a different word, which, in my opinion, I mean, I understand because they're trying to take the literal sense of the word, but that's not necessarily what the clip was about. It's not about a word. It's not about, you know, doing the definition, textbook-style of submitting, right? And it's called "Surrendered Wife," not even submit, you know. Like, that's true. The submission is a part of the idea, but, but yeah, but women got upset. Obviously, they get upset about things that we say as well. Some women do. And, you know, and I said, it's childish behavior to be upset about that. And there you go. And so, you know, my point is, is that we're an equal opportunity pisser-offer. So we, because, and that's how you know we're not biased, at least, you know, as much as we cannot be biased, because we're pissing off women, we're pissing off men. We're not trying to piss off anybody, right? But we don't care, in the sense that we're going to speak the truth, and we're not going to be beholden to one party and say, "Okay, well, we're just going to shit on men so women like us. We're going to pander to women." That's what a lot of guys think when they watch clips. We're not going to do that, but we're also not going to pander to men either. We're going to say the truth on either side, and that's, I think, that's what makes us unique.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. And I mean, I feel like men probably feel like we pick on them more.

John: Yeah, but it's not like we're targeting them. It's because we feel like, based on the dynamic that we're promoting and that we believe in, that the man is the leader, and he is the authority, and he is responsible for the relationship, right? So, of course, we're going to talk more to the person that is responsible. But it's not all about just picking on him. Think about it this way: if a woman comes to a guy that she's in a relationship, she's watched our podcast, and she's like, "Well, Jack, we need to fix our relationship, and I know how to do it, and I'm going to help us do it," it's not going to go well. It's not going to, you know what I mean? Well, he's going to be offended. If a man comes into a woman that he's in a relationship with, and he's like, "You know what? I really want to fix our relationship and make it better. I've been watching this podcast, and I have a lot of ideas and things," she's going to be thrilled. I think a woman would shit her pants with excitement, right? So that's why, you know, I mean, that's why the message is directed more so towards men. Well, and some people are getting it. We got a comment actually recently of a man that said, "Every man should watch this podcast that's married." Every married man, yeah. Because it's like, you know, if we could just speak to women, and how, but it's, that's not the thing. And men do want to be men, and they want to lead, and they want to have authority, and they want to have the responsibility that goes with that authority. And that's what we're, we're trying to do. So we're not babying them, you know what I mean? So, but anyway, that's what it is. So, but let's get into the actual... Yeah, I'm like, we don't have our clock to... Yeah, I know. I didn't even look at what time, but the actual topic, what I was going to call it is, you know, why are men afraid of... But that's, it's sort of the answer to the question. So it might even be, you know, the title of this podcast might even be, "Why 90% of Divorces are Initiated by Women," 'cause that's good. 'Cause I want to get the answer to why that is the case, right? Which I would say it's because men are afraid of women. And there's a lot of...

Nicole: What do you mean by that, John?

John: Well, then I can already hear them now, "I'm not afraid of a woman." You know, I've been coaching guys for a long, long time in relationships, and you see some of the emails.

John: And some of the conversations I have with guys, you see it happen, and you know there's a nice guy, the classic nice guy syndrome. And we know that guy's afraid of women, right? Because he... But there's this just deeper thing, right? Guys are afraid even to approach women, right? Even before they date, right? You know that's a thing. So there's a sort of deep-seated aversion to a woman being upset. Men want peace; they're sort of peacemakers, right? If you ask a man what does he want, "I just want peace," right? He doesn't want conflict. So a lot of men tend to avoid conflict and they avoid confrontation with women a lot of times because they've gotten beat up a lot in those interactions. They don't want to go and face it again. So they're not willing to do that. And so a lot of men, they get to a point where they are just, they're walking on eggshells, they're just trying to do anything not to set her off. And even, and that's where again the relationship can be falling apart. They might not even be happy. A man could be not... And part of it too, there's so many pieces of this, but part of it too is that, you know, I've always said that a man builds his life around his purpose in life, and a woman builds her life around her man. And so if a man is unhappy in the relationship...

Nicole: The relationship isn't doing great, then he can just focus on his work, his business. That's why he'll start working more hours, he'll go to the gym, he'll hang out with his buddies, he'll do other things in his life, and that's okay. And believe me, a lot of guys, they're not happy with it, but I have seen so many videos where guys are like, "I haven't had sex for 3 years," and you know, "It's been 10 years for me," or like, you know, they're upset about these things. But notice they're still there; they're still in their relationship. Yeah, and why? You don't see a lot of women that say, "I've been neglected for 10 years and I'm still in a relationship." Okay, so that's where we're starting to get to the truth of it now, right? And so that's what's going on, is that these men, they feel defeated. I get it, I understand, but they're afraid. They're afraid of the confrontation, they're, and so they don't leave, they don't exit the relationship even though it's not good for them, and they don't... It's not good for the woman either. And so...

John: That's what happens a lot of the time. That's why, you know, a guy could be in a totally miserable situation, but he'll go and find something else that will make him happy. Whereas a woman, if a woman builds her life around a man, and really around her family and the relationship, that's what she builds her life around because women are relationally based, men are ambition based or purpose based, right? They have a mission. Then if her relationship is not good, she might stick around for a while, but she's not... She doesn't have something else to distract her. She's not going to start a business, and that's going to fix her. Men can compartmentalize, and so her, she's going to fix that problem, where she's either going to fix the relationship, right? Or she's going to leave the relationship, or unfortunately, she'll cheat, whatever happens. But she's not going to stay in that state, whereas a man will stay in that state forever, perpetually. And we've seen it with people we know, but I'm like, I just guess...

Nicole: I don't understand why they call that loyal, which I get that he's not technically leaving, but a lot of those men too that are in that situation do cheat, right? And potentially never get caught too, right? So, like, my definition would be that that's not loyal, if that's the case. Now, if you haven't had your needs met in that long and you haven't done anything and you are just living like that, then yeah, I guess you are loyal, but you're also not giving her the love that she needs, right? Because you're not getting what you need. So no matter what any of those men say, I know that they're not actually being the healthy version of a relationship that a woman needs, right? So really, it's just like this part of the plant is dying, and it's going to eventually get to the other part, right? But they're like, "Well, I'll hold on. I don't care if the whole thing dies," you know? 'Cause they're like, "I'm not getting my needs met," but that is eventually going to bleed over to the other side, right? Where either she's going to leave you now because, yeah, she's not doing things to meet your needs, but now you're not either, right? Even if you don't realize it. And now she's going to leave, right? Or you're both going to live as roommates because you're both not getting what you need, and you're probably both going to cheat on each other or something, or either just live without those things and live in a miserable state.

John: Well, I like what that clip we saw this morning said. The guy was like, "In order for you to have a happy, healthy marriage, yeah, your wife has to feel loved." Mhm. "And you don't get to decide if she feels loved or not, and you don't get to write the rule book or give your open up your rule book of justifications of why she should feel loved," right? She gets to decide that, right? And...

Nicole: So what a lot of guys' situation is, is they don't understand what they're doing wrong. In their mind, they're like, "I'm doing everything that she should feel loved. I'm loyal, I work hard, I make money, I wake up early in the morning, I do all these things. I take her on trips." You know what I mean? He has a list of all of these things that he does that she should feel loved. But so he thinks that it's justified in his mind that she should... F off, right? Right. And so that's why this viewpoint is like, "Oh, she just got bored and left. She, you know, she just took off with the kid. She just, some guy gave her attention, so she just accepted that attention because that's how women are." He... That's why a lot of men think like this is because they think that they can define, and it's so surface level too. They're not digging in. It goes back to the statistics thing; they're not digging into really why, right? They're just looking at the things that they did to check off a list, but they're not looking at how that affected her. Like you said, they're just doing the things, and they're like, "You should be fine," right? But they don't even really realize the depth of it. It was like I was thinking about it this week, actually, 'cause I was like, I was thinking about, you know, I don't know, because I was thinking about this episode and some of the concepts about this, and I was like, it'd be silly for me, you know, a lot of guys would think like, "I took you to the Maldives, and we're here in the Maldives, and so now should you not..."

John: Be upset with anything that I do while we're here. Should you just be like, "Oh well, he took me to the Maldives"? That's unrealistic. That's not it, but that is what a lot of guys will think, right? It's because it's like, "Well, I've done this amazing thing for you. I take care of you. I do all these things for you, so you should overlook anything else that makes you feel unloved. How could you not feel loved, right? You know what I'm saying? Like, how could I do something that little that makes you not feel loved?"

Nicole: But that's not the thing. It's in the moment; it doesn't matter. You could do the most amazing thing. That's why that whole Tom Brady thing, where I was like, "You could have fame, status, money, all the things, right? And a woman won't care. You could buy her the most Gucci purses and take her on the most extravagant trips, and whatever you do, but if you're not in the little things showing her the love that matters to her, then it's not going to matter." Well, you basically said it, but I'll say it in more plain terms: You can't buy love. Yes, this is amazing, and yes, I am so grateful for all these things and, you know, the things you do for me. But if you feel like somebody is doing things for you to pacify you, to make it so you can't complain about something, to make it so no matter what they do, you can't have an opinion on it or you can't feel a certain type of way...

John: They don't want that. Like, a woman would rather never see the Maldives in her entire life than have a man take her there and be like, "You can't be upset with me. I took you to the Maldives." Yes, and years from now, I'll be like, "I took you on all these vacations. What are you talking about?" Like, a woman would give up all the material things, right, in order for her to feel loved and appreciated because she does not want those things. And that's what scares women the most too, is things held over their head.

Nicole: Yeah, is men holding things against them. And like you said, a lot of men do that, and that is what they're afraid of. And that's also why they're afraid, if I'm being completely honest, of why they're afraid to have a man provide for them.

John: Oh yeah, 100%. And then stop working because they also don't want a man to be like, "Well, this is my money, and I earn the money," and then hold, like when he gets upset, hold that against her.

Nicole: Which men tend to do, like you just said. They'll do it with like a vacation or, "I bought you a nice purse. You can't be mad at me." And a woman would give all of that up to be with somebody that actually cares, yeah, and isn't going to do that to them.

John: Well, that's why I say, like, you know, an extreme example would be like we're on this trip, right? Let's suppose that, and it's not a big thing, but let's suppose that we're in this beautiful overwater villa, you know, and in the morning, I make myself coffee here, and I don't make you coffee or offer to make you coffee. I just make it for myself. It's not a big thing, but your feelings could be hurt by that. And if I were to brush it off, like if your feelings were hurt and I was to brush off and be like, "Are you crazy? You're in this overwater villa in the Maldives, and how can you care? Like, you're going to get upset at me because I didn't make you coffee?" When, like, you see what I'm saying? It might seem rational to a man, right?

Nicole: Right, but that's where it's not understanding the feminine. Because what matters is that little consideration, and it doesn't mean that you can't make a mistake. Like, if I honestly did that, then I could just say, "Oh wow, I didn't mean to make you feel that way. I just didn't think of it. I'm sorry, you know. I'll make you coffee too." And you would be fine. And it's like, no, not that that didn't even happen. I'm just seeing that as an example to show that's an example of something like that, where you know, you could be a guy in your whole life providing all these things, doing all these things, but these little steps along the way, you're not providing the emotional validation and safety. You're not showing the romantic, the thoughtfulness plus effort, and not doing these little things. And those are the things that are actually the strikes against you, that building the resentment and, you know, and causing so...

John: It's four, isn't it?

Nicole: Oh shoot, it is at 4:00. Should you run in there and call them?

John: All right, all right. So, we had to cancel our photo shoot. So, what... I forget what we were saying, though.

Nicole: That men genuinely don't understand, and they think that they can just check things off, and she can't be upset because he's done these things before.

John: Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that's a lot of the cases. It's the little things that matter that might not seem like as much. And that's why, again, guys don't understand the whole Tom Brady thing. And they, in their mind, a lot of guys think the opposite of what it actually indicates.

Nicole: Mhm.

John: They think there's no amount of success, no amount of status, no amount of good looks, no amount of athleticism, or being a good guy, what they consider to be a good guy, that will make a woman happy. It's impossible. Make a woman think it's hopeless. But they don't realize the thing that women really want is what's inside of him the most, which is the love and, you know, him caring about her and treating her the right way.

Nicole: Right. So, but yeah, guys will stay in a relationship and not realize it's broken. And even if it's broken for them, they will find other things to occupy their life, whereas women won't. Why do you think that is?

John: Because men build their lives around their purpose, and women build their lives around relationships, around their man. That's the main thing. But do men not, like, is it not in a man's mind where they're like, "I'm not happy with this person, but I'm going to stay here"? Like, 'cause I feel like with women, it's like, "I'm not feeling loved, so I want to be with somebody who loves me." And that's the motivating factor. They're like, "This can't be it because, you know, I've tried so hard to get this man to understand he's not loving me, and that's all I want from him, and he still doesn't get it." And then that's when they're like, "I can't do this anymore." And that's why they get divorced. But why do men not feel that way, especially if they're not getting the physical intimacy? Right? Why do they not have the motivation to be like, "Okay, well, I will go be with somebody who is giving me these things"? And I do think, even though men might not act like it, I think they obviously need more than the physical intimacy as well.

John: They need that connection, right? But why is it that they don't have the motivation to leave, that they will literally be miserable for the rest of their lives? Because instead of going to get that, because what defines success as a man, you could say that it's his achievements, his merits, his business, his wealth, the accomplishments that he's gotten. That's how a man defines success. He would say he has a successful life if he's done those things, if he's accomplished things, right?

Nicole: How would a woman define a successful life? Probably by relationship, right? Yeah, and like happiness and doing things that make her happy, other people happy. But is there a world that you could imagine a woman defining her life as successful where she didn't have a successful relationship?

John: I mean, unless she is more in her masculine and she's more career-focused, and even that can still be an accomplishment. You don't have to be masculine. Like, if a woman comes up with something that helps a bunch of people, I mean, still, in business, it's helping a bunch of people. Still kind of ties into what you're saying though. But a woman, in her fine, isn't going to feel successful in life if she's not successful in a relationship, whereas a man could have no relationship with a woman and he could feel successful in life. And a lot of men do. A lot of men are like, "I'm fine. I'm cool. I don't even need it." And yeah, they probably would be better off with, and they probably do want a woman, but as far as feeling like they're successful, they could still feel like they're successful. That they've had a successful life, they've done all the things, they've gotten the things. And that's why a man could have a prostitute and be like, "Okay, well, I'm getting the sex that I need, and I'm getting the money and all the other things." And so again, both you and I know that there's still an emptiness in that, and there's something lacking from his life. But I'm just saying that's why a man could be in a miserable situation and define the success of his life by other things, but a woman could never do that.

Nicole: She could never stay in that. But you're saying that he would rather, he could also be successful without any woman at all and be happy. So why doesn't he do that? Why isn't that the motivation?

John: Some men do. Some men get divorced, but most men don't. Most men are in this situation where they stay in an unhappy marriage, and they don't realize that it's making them more unhappy to stay there, right? Even though they can deal with it, right, they are unhappy. That's where they're afraid of. The reason why they're staying, it seems really stupid, but we've seen multiple people do this that we know now, okay? Like, for long periods of time where there was no benefit in the relationship for them.

Nicole: Okay.

John: And the reason why they stayed was they're afraid of making the woman upset. Literally, that's it. And to a degree, I've been there myself.

Nicole: That's why.

John: Yeah, but I wasn't even talking about myself before. But to a degree, I've been there myself as well. Because men are afraid to make women upset, like to the point where it's insane. Where to the point where we saw a television show, Love is Blind, where the guy went all the way to the altar knowing that he was not even attracted to this woman because he was afraid of making her upset.

Nicole: Well, and making America upset too.

John: But yeah, but that's what it comes down to. A lot of men cheat because they think it won't make a woman upset because she won't know about it. So she goes behind her back. Like, "I can't divorce her even though I want to go be with this other woman because that'll make her upset." But then go and do something that makes her 10 times as upset when she finds out.

Nicole: Right. What they've done. So that's why I guess it's hard for women to comprehend because it's like they are choosing a path that instead makes somebody, anybody would be way more upset to be cheated on than left. Like, yes, it's hard, but that's why it also still doesn't kind of make sense. They're like, they don't want to make women upset, and I believe you, right? But then they make choices that would hurt anybody way more than someone being broken up with or divorced. So why does that happen?

John: Well, I mean, women do that too. I'm saying because when women do cheat, 'cause that does happen, then it's a similar type of...

Nicole: So why does anyone do that?

John: And it's because they don't want to face the loss or the consequences of the situation. A selfish thing, and it could have to do with the money as well, or just a disruption. 'Cause hey, breaking up, especially moving out, divorces are hard, very disruptive.

Nicole: It only...

John: Only if you get caught, right? Otherwise, you're going through everything that's done in the dark eventually comes to light. Believe me, I know. So, but, and also living with that...

Nicole: How they can just live with that.

John: Well, and there's almost this sense of what I'm describing as men being afraid of women. A lot of men interpret that fear as loyalty. Fierce loyalty, that's what...

Nicole: And they take pride in their fierce loyalty.

John: Right, even right. That's what I was talking about in the beginning 'cause it's like this warped, like they view it as loyal, right? But if you're not happy, and then that in turn is draining the relationship from all ends.

Nicole: Yeah, how was that...

John: Technically, I guess it's loyal, right? But is it? It's not, but it feels that way because that's the noble virtue, right? That they can hold on to instead of calling it what it is, is fear. Instead of really realizing, like I said, we have a situation where a friend of ours was in a very long, over a year or something, relationship. There was no sex happening in that relationship, and it was the opposite of what people would think it was.

Nicole: Right.

John: Yeah, he wasn't having, you know. But regardless, like, there wasn't enough connection for it. Like, he wasn't happy, no one was happy, but nobody could leave. But why did he not leave?

Nicole: Right.

John: And if you really think about it, it was because he was afraid. He was afraid of how she was going to react.

Nicole: Well, she was afraid too. She should have left. Her needs weren't being met, and she was afraid.

John: Oftentimes, I think women don't leave because they're afraid of not having something else. And oftentimes, men don't leave because they are afraid of the woman being upset. But see, I would say that some women think that men, when they leave, they have something else lined up as well too. So it can kind of go both ways for that.

Nicole: I think that's because that's enough momentum to get a man to finally stand up for himself, to leave at that point.

John: Well, yeah, stand up for himself. I mean, like, if he's not getting his needs met and like things have been attempted to try to fix it, that's what I think men should look at.

John: It's like, you're not getting your needs met, you're unhappy, and in turn, you're not making her happy. So, stand up for yourself and leave because that's what I think women do. Women stand up for themselves. They're like, "I'm not being loved the way I want to be loved and that I'm giving love." And again, it goes back to men aren't searching for deep love the same way that women are. They're searching for different things. But a woman will stand up and be like, "No, I want to be loved like this." But to give the other side of it too, a lot of women in those situations do leave because they don't want to stay in a situation that a man is afraid to leave. It's not like they're not doing anything wrong because, yes, they want to be loved, but a lot of times, those women aren't doing anything to meet the man's needs either. That's where, when we talked about the surrendered wife book, and that's why it's so good. In fact, we're going to talk about another book, The Empowered Wife, which is her sequel book, which is much better. It's presented in a better way, but the concept is still the same. There are a lot of women in that book that she talks about where they were ready to leave and get a divorce, and then they read her book and started doing these things, respecting their husband, treating him differently, and then all of a sudden, the good part of him came out, and the relationship's amazing. A lot of times, the women that feel like they have no choice but to leave, they've tried everything else. A lot of it is that they're just waiting to receive.

Nicole: And again, I think a man should be understanding enough to actually be giving that part. He should be stepping up, but they're not actually understanding, just the same way we just described. That the man can take the woman on an expensive vacation and forget to make her coffee and make himself coffee, and then not see why she would be upset about that little thing when she's in this amazing place. Which again, that did not happen. I'm just using that as an extreme example so that people can relate to it. But that same thing, women don't understand that about men and what makes a man feel loved or feel respected, you could say. And so, they're messing that part up. The same blind side that the men have, women have that blind side as well, and that also leads to this problem.

John: Yeah, I mean, I am thinking about it from a perspective like we were talking about earlier, with a woman who is doing everything right. And talking from my perspective as a woman who tries to do the right thing the majority of the time, but I do acknowledge and understand that women also aren't doing the right things as well too. And you know, it's that crazy cycle that we talked about in the love respect thing, where he feels disrespected or not desired, and then he acts unloving to her, and then she acts disrespectful, and it just keeps going. So that is normally how it happens. You're right.

Nicole: But you know, just like we talked about, a man can still mess it all up, go and cheat on a woman that is doing the right things, but he's less likely to. But yeah, I was looking at it through that perspective, but you're right, there are things that women need to work on as well too. And you can't just be acting like you're all high and mighty when you have things to work on too. But at least they do leave more often before they cheat. I'm not saying that women don't cheat, but it is, in my eyes, a more respectful thing to do, to divorce before you go try to be with somebody else. And I think that's also potentially why women have a hard time respecting men because they do things like that, that is disrespectful. Like, it is way more disrespectful to just cheat and try to hide it than it is to man up and have a hard conversation. I'm not saying it's not hard and leave before you move on. I think though that, again, I think it is, like you said, more so that men are more likely to do that. But there's definitely a significant number of women that do leave, but they also cheat first. And so those are not typically healed, healthy women themselves.

John: No, it's not. But again, it's never actually a woman that is, if we're dealing with all healed, healthy people, we wouldn't have much to talk about. But I'm just saying, you know, like we've said the whole time, that's why we talk a lot about men though, is because a man can help a woman work through these things. She should hold herself accountable, of course, and work on herself as well, and not do these things. But you know, you do hear more often that men are doing those sorts of things than women. But it's not like women don't do them. You're right, women do cheat.

Nicole: Well, and again, it kind of comes down to too that men are afraid of women in the beginning of the relationship as well, which I know we're going to do a whole episode on the whole beginning of things. But that they don't create boundaries, they don't put their foot down on certain behaviors like being yelled at or cussed at or disrespected early on. And they get into a committed relationship with these women that are already doing that because they're afraid, and then they end up getting this result. Because that's the other thing we were talking about this last night, or the other night, was that if a man is dating a woman, let's say casually, and she wants to get a committed relationship, and he, before he does that, he makes sure she's not disrespecting him, she's not yelling at him, not calling him names. At those things, you can have arguments, but it's not getting to that level. You know, she's not being disrespectful in that. He's set proper boundaries, like we talked about in our episode two, I think it was, of a relationship of, you know, locations on, we share texts and emails, and we don't do girls' night out, guys' night out kind of partying stuff like that. And he's also had the conversation with her about the captain of the ship, which we talked about, where it's like, you know, "I'm a good captain. I'm going to be captain of the ship." Like, she agrees that he's going to lead the relationship. If all those things are checked off, and then you enter a relationship with a woman, the statistic that you've got a parachute right now. You've just given yourself a par because, yes, is it still possible that she could initiate the divorce or leave you? Yes, if you, you know, but if you've vetted that amount, which also means it doesn't also mean that she's necessarily the best woman in.

John: The world, it means that she sees you as a trustworthy and respectable enough of a man. She has a high enough opinion of you that she's willing to do those things and want to do those things. That means that it's very less likely that you're going to get into the situation where she's initiating the divorce and you feel like she's bored. Well, it's also good for men to do that because then they know that they've stood up for themselves and have boundaries.

Nicole: And from the very beginning, and I think that is what is important for any sort of people pleaser because that's essentially what these men are. They think they're peacemakers, but they're people pleasers. Right, and the second you stand up for yourself and have a boundary, the easier it is to continue to do that when you need to do that. So, that I feel like is a key as well, besides just having the boundaries in general but to do the act of asserting a boundary and having that conversation. Yeah, so in the future, you can have more serious conversations without trying to just people please. And 90% of the time, when you haven't had that boundary as a man in a relationship and you try to assert that boundary in the relationship, she's going to break up with you or you're going to break up with her because you're changing the rules to the agreement, which you should, but you have to understand things have been operating a certain way. This has been the rules of the game that you've been playing, and now you're changing the rule of it. You should change the rule of it because that's how the rules should have been, but it's much easier to set the rules up front than to change them while everyone's already playing the game. Right, if you imagine playing a board game and you, you know, if you play Monopoly and you agree that, you know, if whatever it is like the free parking rule, right, if you land on free parking then you get the money from the, I don't remember how that, you know, you know what I mean, the free parking rule where if you land on free parking there's some rule where if you land on free parking you get all the money from the when people pay to go get out of jail or something, whatever it is, I don't know. But if everyone's playing like that and then all of a sudden you're like, actually let's not do that rule anymore, right, people are going to be upset. Yeah, it's not going to go over well, but if you started from the beginning, that's what you agreed to. Yeah, so that's why a lot of times, you know, this is going to occur, but without getting into that topic, 'cause that's a totally separate one, is there anything else you want to add to men being afraid of women?

John: I think that's the main thing, in regards to why women initiate most breakups and divorces, is because men are afraid to upset women. Like, they will stay in ridiculous situations. So, what would you say then to help with the statistics as far as what men can do?

Nicole: Yeah, 'cause I mean, they're just continuing to use the statistics, you know, to promote men not even getting in marriages, rather than leaving when the marriage has seemingly failed. You know, we're not saying go and get a divorce all willy-nilly, easy, you know, you get in one fight, get a divorce. We're not saying that, but if men feel like they've genuinely tried and, you know, hopefully watched our videos and for 3 months, put their needs aside and make a woman feel loved, and if that didn't work and they're still unhappy, they should leave then. At that point, yeah, you have to leave. You know, it's a combination of things that would help fix this. So, one of them is just realizing that if women actually initiate the divorce or initiate the breakup, that doesn't mean they're the ones that actually caused the divorce or to break up. Right, and what I mean by that is when you've actually divorced or broken up, just haven't signed the paperwork, when you've given up on trying to fix the relationship or improve it. So, if you're still actively trying and working on yourself and working on the relationship, and then she leaves you, I'm empathetic to that. I say, okay, that's her giving up, that's her not respecting the vows, that's not cool at all. Right, but that's a rare case because what ends up happening is that you've stopped working on it, you've just accepted the status quo and it's not good, and she had been working on it for some time, and then when she's finally done trying to work on it, that's when she actually does the thing. And so, that's the thing too, I think that has to register, it's almost like, you know, if you're playing a game, right, and you're like, well, this person quit the game, right, let's say it's a really long game of Scrabble, okay, right, as we know that we have long games of Scrabble. If I'm playing a really long game of Scrabble with you, right, and I'm taking forever to do my turn, and you know, and then eventually, that is how we place, and then, and then you're like, I don't want to play this game anymore, and you quit, then I can be like, hey, you just quit the game in the middle, right. But if we're playing this really long game of Scrabble, right, and then when it's my turn, instead of me actually trying to do my turn, I start playing on my phone and I'm like, hold on, let me just send this text first, or I'm watching this video, and you're waiting while it's my turn to play, right, and then you get frustrated and quit the game, and then I say, oh, see, you quit the game, right, that's no, you're like forcing somebody to do it. I quit and then blaming them for it. If I was actually trying and trying to rub my brain cells together and make a word, and then you got upset and quit the game, then it would be you, but it's not if you've already checked out and then you're just waiting for the other person to quit the game so you can say that they quit the game and gave up. And that's the number one thing. But then also, even before that happens, like I said, is that if you want to change the statistic, it's not going to come from women changing their behavior, like men, that's what men are thinking, or better divorce laws, that's not, it's not women aren't doing this so they're going to get the money. Well, I want to talk a little bit about that.

John: Yeah, that is typically men's biggest defense, I guess, in why they stay, right, they don't want to lose half of their stuff. And I guess I just need men to realize, like, as a woman, they might feel like women don't care about them when they get divorced, which is not typically true. I'm not saying that it's not always true, but usually, it's not true. A woman cared so much about you and put so much effort in, and then she got to a point where she was done trying because she felt like you weren't.

John: That you're just staying for money. You're not staying for her, right? You're staying so you don't lose half of your stuff. So, what's the difference?

Nicole: Sorry, go ahead.

John: Well, no, I mean, I'm just trying to explain that their defense actually makes a woman feel even more unloved. And if he ever said anything like that in front of the woman he married, she will instantly feel unloved. What's the difference between what a lot of guys say, that a woman divorces to get a payday, right, versus staying to keep a payday? You see what I'm saying? It's the same thing because they care more about money than their relationship in that instance. And then, at that point, if that is true, if that's genuinely how you feel, one, don't get married. No woman is going to want to be with you if that's your mindset. No woman is going to want you on the dating market because you are somebody she doesn't want to be with. She's not going to want to be with somebody that only cares about their money and doesn't care about them. And two, if that is genuinely how you feel, you care so much about money, then if you leave a relationship and you lost half of your stuff, don't you think you'd get it back because you care that much about it? Exactly. Don't you feel like you can build back up the thing that you built to that point unless you built it with her? Which also is another part that they don't add in there is that most of these men come from 50/50, right? So, she does deserve at least half of the part that she's been putting half in if it's 50/50. You know, and so their defense to a lot of this is the most unloving thing that a woman could ever hear. Like, it's never about, "I lost the best woman of my life." Granted, because they also didn't want to be in that relationship, but they cared more about the money than her. And what are they most upset about? Losing the money than the person. And that is exactly why women leave because they care more about material things. And it goes back to being like, "I took you to the Maldives." That's a material thing. They care more about the material thing. They don't value what a woman brings. And granted, it could be because a woman is not treating him correctly. I'm not saying, you know, that she doesn't have issues. But they don't value the love and the support and the emotional side of love and a relationship that a woman brings into the relationship. Because a man doesn't necessarily bring that. He has his emotions, he loves her, you know, things like that. He does bring that, but he doesn't bring the true emotional deep connection. A woman brings that out in a man because he cares more about material things. And that is just a man's nature. But when it's so severe because a man just doesn't care about the woman he's with at that point, then that just pushes a woman further towards divorce. And it becomes a projection on women because a lot of men think that women leave in order to get a payday, which is such a ridiculous thing. Why would you go through a whole marriage, and I'm not saying that it never happens with somebody. I'm saying it never happens. We know, but you know, when it's a gold digger type of like, yeah, tale. And if a guy can't tell, he needs to like ask some people's advice or something. Like, you can tell.

John: Yeah, but aside from those rare circumstances, a woman's not calculating like, "Well, it'd be more profitable for me to divorce him." You know, it's like, that's so stupid. Like, you don't want to go through that hell and all that stuff just to... And then, yeah, it's just, it's a ridiculous thing. And the other thing about it too is like, I was just thinking about this too. It's like, look, show me some guy, right, where a woman just divorced him, and he's sitting there reading relationship books or watching this podcast and, like, you know, trying to do things to better the relationship, trying to understand her better and try. Show me that situation where the woman divorces the man, and he doesn't want to be divorced. I mean, some men do it afterwards when it's too late. Okay, I get that. But show me a man that's actively working on those, what is arguably the most important skill that you can develop in life because it's going to affect you the most in your life, more than any other thing, which is relationship skill.

Nicole: Right. I agree. In a romantic relationship, you didn't say that at first, so I want people to know. Show me a man that's actively investing in relationship skills, reading books on relationships, whatever it is. You're the only one I know. But, and show me that a woman is going to divorce that guy. Right? And show me that other women are going to be cheering her, divorcing that guy, and celebrating his money. Please, no. They're going to be like, "You show me that, show me it." Exactly. Because otherwise, then I'll believe. Yeah, and you know, they let it burn them, and then they, you know, they don't want to get married or whatever unless someone comes along and changes their mind. But that's the thing is like, I've told you this multiple times. I don't think I've mentioned it on the podcast, that women get burned by men a lot. Most women have been with a guy that has cheated on them. Not heard of a woman being cheated on, but has actually been with a man who has cheated on them. Most women now, okay, go. And so that does not deter women from dating and still trying to find a husband. Some women get upset, and they do act a lot like these guys too, and they like hate men, you know. So, I'm not saying that doesn't happen. You know, from that instance, but a woman will still try. Some women have been cheated on many multiple times, and they still are trying to find a good man and the right person. Granted, again, no one deserves to be cheated on, but sometimes, you know, you end up in the same situation because you keep repeating the same things over and over again. So, a lot of times, in that instance, if you continue to get cheated on, you got to be like, "Am I picking these men that are more likely to do this? Am I acting a certain way that is attracting that sort of behavior?" So, you know, that is important. However, I'm just trying to say that women will still keep trying. But men, a lot of the times, will hear a story that doesn't even have any plausible, you know, factual evidence. They'll be like, "My friend Brad knew a guy whose wife left him for a turtle." And they're like, "Oh, I'm never talking to women. Like, women are horrible. You know, I'm not going to get married." Then they go perpetuate that on the internet. Right? Which again, I'm not saying women don't perpetuate things on the internet that they shouldn't be either. But they're more likely to go instantly to the, "I'm not getting married again. I'm not doing this again." And like, even you were saying you didn't want to get married again.

John: Yeah, well, yeah, like, and then here I am. But yeah, I just didn't see the need because I was like, I was good. I was happy.

John: I was fine, but the thing is, you showed me the need, like what was lacking, what I could be, how I could be even better, and how I could have an even better life and have something that I had always wanted.

Nicole: You know, and so it made it worth it. So, which is what these men want too, but they try to stuff it down. And then, like you said, they are probably happy just focusing on their job and their career or whatever, but they're not actually truly fulfilled. And then they get these ideas, just like you said, of all the bad things that can happen or that women can do. But again, they're jumping out of the plane without the parachute.

John: Right, but if you learned, there will... because those things will happen if you're... it's like going into the boxing ring to go fight Mike Tyson, and you've never boxed before. You're going to get your block knocked off. And a lot of guys are going into relationships with women, getting married to women, with no relationship skills at all, no understanding, not the stuff teaching in this show. And so, they are getting their block knocked off.

Nicole: Right, and I do feel bad for them. It's not like, you know, but at the same time, if you learn some of the things, then the risk is not so bad. You're going to be able... you might... I'm not saying that you're going to be able to go nine rounds with Mike Tyson, but you're not going to just instantly be TKO'ed. Like, you're going to be able to have some fighting chance. I mean, we're trying to give you a fighting chance. You have more than a fighting chance. But my point is, if you learn these things, you're going to be a lot more successful. And that's why what we're saying is true, right? Even though the statistics might show... because the statistics are showing you people that are jumping into the boxing ring with no experience. And that's what's happening to them.

John: Yeah, I agree. Men that haven't learned anything about relationships, that's what's going to happen to them. I would expect that they're going to get a divorce. I would expect that a woman is going to cheat on them or treat them badly or whatever.

Nicole: I would expect that to happen. But if you invest a little bit of time, like you're investing time in your job and your skills and making money and learning how to build a business, you're investing time in the gym, you're investing time in all of these other areas, but you didn't invest time in actual relationship skills. Instead, you wasted the time watching some guy on the internet tell you statistics about why women are horrible. Just perpetuating a negative mindset. It didn't gain you... you learned some things to avoid, but you didn't learn what to do. And so, like learning all the dangers in the world, it doesn't teach you what to actually do in the world. And we're trying to say, not that the dangers don't exist, but that, yeah, jumping out of a plane is dangerous, but having a parachute and jumping out of a plane is not. And so, life is dangerous. Like, you just have to learn how to navigate it as safely as you can. And you still might mess up and might get hurt or whatever, or might be taken away from here, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth doing.

John: Yeah, so I think that's our super long... well, we also have to cut a... yeah, we have some cut. But oh, and then our... what... so the thing for the week. I mean, we've had a few things while we're traveling, which I feel like that is typically a time where things pop up because traveling in general can just be stressful. And you have all these other different aspects that pop up. So, I don't know which one that you want to talk about.

Nicole: I mean, I feel like it was just a good... we just gained some insights and learning experiences through, you know, just some of the things that came up that I thought they were good.

John: Yeah, I mean, I think it's been easier for us. Well, especially, I'll speak to mine. I feel like I'm not perfect by any means, but I feel like it has been easier to listen to you and allow you to talk about what you need to talk about, and then, you know, try to talk about whatever I need to talk about. But, and even in some of those instances, you helped me realize that, you know, I still don't have the ability to talk about something when you were the one that was affected by it first. You know, 'cause as a woman, you know, we take a lot of things personally or differently than men do. But like you said, in one of the instances, like I had done something, I'd like snapped at you, not anything severe, but it hurt your feelings and it made you feel a certain type of way. And, you know, I just threw it back at you because of how you reacted hurt my feelings. But then you were like, you know, that's... I accidentally pull your hair, and I talk to you a certain way, you can't be upset. You know, you explained it a lot better, but it made sense. And even though to me it didn't seem like a big deal, and it really wasn't like a big ordeal, right, like I don't want it to seem like it was even a big thing, like that's not my decision to make. It's your decision. And I never wanted you to feel that way anyway. So, yeah, I appreciate that. And it has been easier to discuss things. I felt that you've been a lot more receptive. And you helped me a lot in the last week with really nailing down the, you know, getting more worked up over, like being more calm in the situation, and just being able to communicate because then I can communicate more clearly, right, what I am experiencing and what's going on, in a more vulnerable way.

Nicole: Which always has a better response. And so, I've been trying to put that into practice, thanks to you, you know, pointing it out and having that level of standard, which we talked about before, that I appreciate, that you... that it's not good enough that we're better than perfect, you know. It's not good enough that we hardly ever fight, that we get along so well, and that we never call each other names, literally never. And, you know, that you want it to be to a standard where we don't even raise our voices at all, and we calmly and vulnerably talk about everything. And that might seem crazy to people, but I like that about you. I want to achieve that as well. It doesn't seem crazy to me because this is how I look at it: if we thought it was good enough, which it is good, and it's better than most people's normal, yeah, it would probably go down. But because it's never good enough, it only goes up. Yeah, and we only get better at handling these things. And that's what I think is really important for anybody to know in their personal development journey and their relationship development journey. You're always going to be working on something, always. Just already get that in your mind, and don't view it as a bad thing, right. View it as a good thing because when you have done personal development and you have worked on your relationship, and you see for yourself how much better your life gets when...

John: You are able to talk calmly and not allow anger to control you and live in a more peaceful state in general. You realize why the work is worth it, and it doesn't feel like work. So, when you realize, "Okay, well, I got to keep going," you know that it's only going to get better from here, right? It's like that TikTok where she's like, no matter how long I clean up the kitchen and how much I clean up, I still have to clean up tomorrow. But you do. You can't ever hit the point where you're just like, "Okay, we're done working on the relationship," because it'll go downhill. You have to continually be, which is good because you have to have those standards, otherwise... So, it's good. But yeah, you've helped me a lot. Just, you've helped me a lot in life, to see the blind spots that I have had and to improve them and to keep on improving them. And you know, well, even though we're not psychologists, that's what they say that healthy couples have. They help each other work on things that you really can't get to on your own. Because both you and I were like, "Oh, we've done a lot of personal development. We're in a good space before we met each other." And then when you get together, you're like, new things hit you that you didn't even realize, that you didn't know how to properly handle. And you'll keep on them, and we're going to grow together, yeah, the longer we're together. And there's going to be new things that pop up, but if you have the mindset of, "We'll get through them together, and we'll work on them together, and we'll support each other together," while also working on ourselves so we can show up as the best versions for ourselves and each other, then you know that you got it handled.

Nicole: Exactly. And it's not as detrimental. Like, we never have a disagreement, and even though sometimes I mess up and I might say something that I, and I try not to say anything drastic, but because we've made that commitment to each other to not say things like, "I can't do this," you know. Or, but I am still a woman and sometimes I get emotional, and I might say like, "I can't deal with this right now," or something. And it seems a little bit like that. I never feel that way.

John: Yeah, I never feel that way. And even when you mess up and you're like, "I'm so sorry. Can you forgive me?" and you keep asking me a million times, I already forgave you. And I tell you that a lot too. I'm like, "I already forgave you." Because when we have those interactions, it's not, I don't feel like it's a crack in our relationship.

Nicole: I feel like it's just a bump that we have to get over.

John: Yeah, and we will get over it because we've got over some big mountains before. And I have faith in us.

Nicole: Yeah, it's almost like, you know, like having a cavity, like brushing your teeth, and like, "Oh," and it's like the cavity was there, you didn't notice, but now you can get it fixed because you found out about it. It's like you're not like, "Oh, it's a bad thing." You're like, "Oh, good thing. I figured it out." Right. We should also, to make our episode even longer, but uh, thank our, our, uh, I was going to grab your phone because it's, thank the people that have given us reviews.

John: Yes, we can't forget that. Unfortunately, you might be doing some editing on this.

Nicole: Yeah, so it's on Apple, Apple iTunes. If you just search on Google for Better Than Perfect podcast.

John: Oh well, I'm on, I just did. Or if you, wherever you can find them, it's right here.

Nicole: All right. Oh yes, we got some great reviews here. And dang it, I thought, okay, here we go. Called them out specifically. Okay, oh, Raan 2003, I hope I pronounced that, Rajan, Rajon, I'm sorry, said, "I have listened to a few other relationship podcasts. They always turn extreme on one side or the other, for women or men. So far, I relate more with the two of you. I'm only six episodes podcasts in and enjoyed everyone. I love that you share current issues you've had and resolved them all without dropping the F bomb every sentence. Look forward to finishing the older episodes and excited for the new. Thank you both."

John: Jen, thank you.

Nicole: Yeah, that's great. We got some more. Cass d55, "This show, this is the show I've been looking for. You get the side of the man, the woman, and the opinions and advice coming from a healthy marriage. I wish everyone would listen to this. You guys really know what you're talking about, and I listen to make sure I'm a great and perfect partner for my next mate. Please keep making videos. A, that's, thank you, that's really nice." And then this is the last recent one we got from Guy Guy 2, "Thank you, John and Nicole, for creating this. I've been married for over 10 years, and this podcast really amplifies, exemplifies how to be and the mindset needed for a successful marriage. I'm subscribed on YouTube, and to see you guys interact is another layer for me to learn from. This podcast gives us both the man and women's point of view of things and promotes taking personal responsibility for the relationship. Keep up the good work. Thank you."

Nicole: But yeah, thank you guys so much for posting those. We really appreciate it because I know you probably watch the episodes where we're like, "Please leave us a review." And if you watch this one and haven't left us a review, we will, yeah, put it on the podcast. And thank you so much. And it means a lot to us because, you know, we see more of the negativity, and we know it's not everyone, but because of some of the topics we talk about, those things go viral. And that's, you know, there's so much negativity coming at us that we look through every day. So, seeing that people really get us and get what we're doing and understand it really helps because it's not always easy to, and it's not easy to air your own dirty laundry, you know.

John: Yeah, that's true. But, yeah, and also, if you guys would be interested in merch maybe in the future, let us know in the comments. Or if you're in San Diego and you want to actually be on the podcast, send us an email.

Nicole: Yeah, don't we have an email?

John: Um, yeah, betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com.

Nicole: Yeah, all right. We're open. See you next week.