John: I tell guys this all the time when I was coaching them. Would you rather have a girl that is, in your estimation, your rating, a seven but just really wants you sexually, badly thinks you're the hottest thing in the world, or would you rather have a 10 who lets you have sex with her? Men would pick a 10 that lets you. They would pick that. They should value the seven who actually cares about them, but you and I know, look, see, you think that men would pick the 10 because this is what men do. They go around and like, "Guess who I banged last night?" They pull up the girl's Instagram, and they're like, "Oh, you banged a 10." They're not going to be like, "I banged a seven, but she was really into me," and the guy's going to be like, "Sure, yeah." Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where weekly we show you how two imperfect people helping each other become better equals one better than perfect relationship. Did I do it right? I think so. I think I did it right. I don't know. We're still working it, wondering if we got it right after how many episodes now, six? I guess so, yeah. So, who knows? Well, you know, it's better than perfect, a better than perfect intro. Go, yeah. We're human. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. So, we're just talking about the origin of the Matrix, and I won't use the words because who knows what kind of algorithms might not, you know, like it. That's true.

Nicole: Angry men. Why are angry men in society today, and all of those things? But yeah, yeah. John might have to handle that one himself. Be our episode. I'm exhausted already from the pre-conversation to this conversation. Yeah, yeah. We'll do some kind of episode around the topic, but not quite, you know, pieces of different parts of it, I think, would make sense. So, good. Yeah. We don't need all the what we just went into. Yeah. But I think it's important to represent. Like, I mean, I was thinking about this actually this week because, you know, we just published the first episode this last week, and we just published a second episode today. So, you know, the time travel thing we talked about last week. But, uh, there's a lot of angry men, I would say. But I was thinking about it this way, like, you know, earlier, I was thinking about, so it's kind of like we got to treat it as if we're doctors, right? I mean, because they're sick, right? And again, it's not like I'm not saying this. I'm not saying it. I mean, I guess guys don't care about that, but well, I'm not saying it. I mean, there's a lot of people that are saying, "I'm not saying it," in like a really derogatory way. It's just that there's, like, you can have these people that are saying all this stuff, and you can be angry at them. They're uninformed, right? And but, but what really is the problem is they're hurting, or they have some kind of like, we should be treating them as a person with a disease that we're trying to help, which I have been in the comments, you know, some of them, I'm just like, you know what, like, yeah, I don't have the capacity to explain this to you. And the hard part is a lot of these men are very committed to the idea that they have, and even if you do present the idea in a nice kind way, they're just really stuck on being hurt or upset. And I'm not saying you can cure them. I'm just saying that they're, they're like a terminally ill patient. They're like, you got to kind of feel bad for them. Don't think that I don't treat them that way when I see some of the comments. I'm like, yeah, not even, but you feel bad for them because it's, that's really what it is. That's how I was thinking about it. It's like, you know, there, you know, the confusing thing to me is just like, guys saying this stuff, like, do you think women are going to find this attractive, that you're talking bad about women? This could be a whole another.

John: We can definitely, that has always confused me. Like, even if you're hurt, and so you're shit-talking women because you're hurt, right? You think if a woman saw that, she's going to be like, "That's my future husband?" Like, what you put out there, like, you do project. So, you just further get less women because you are in this like, hating women stage, which don't get me wrong, like, women get into hating men stages. I've been in one of those stages. It's just never good. Like, if you actually care about having a relationship, like, you should try to prevent yourself from getting too deep into this like, hurt, I hate the opposite sex stage. It's like, it's like trying to get like a puppy to come to you, and you're like, "Come here, you little [__] [__] [__]. Why don't you come over here? Why don't you like me, you stupid puppy? Come here. You're like, come over here, puppy. Am I not good enough for you? Aren't you, don't you like me? You don't like anybody, yeah."

Nicole: Dog, that's why I don't like puppies because they don't come. It's like, yeah, okay. That's what it is. It's like, okay, well, you know, that was very, uh, dramatic and very on-brand for how they act. So, good job. Yeah, we should probably get into the actual topic because we're just over here going down another avenue. But yes. So, yeah, the topic for this week is the phenomena of why hot girls date ugly guys.

John: Okay, all right. I'm glad you went with the full title. I wanted to give, you know, some context because that is, I'm trying to use the language that people actually use, right? They'll be like, "A hot girl with that ugly guy," like, you know, "I'm hotter than that guy." So, I want to give the floor to you first, and then we'll go into it. So, yeah. So, it's interesting from a guy's perspective because, I mean, like I just said, I feel like a lot of times, it's guys being like, "Why is that hot girl with that ugly guy?" or, you know, whatever. Before I even, I have to start by saying what the common arguments are, what most guys think. So, today, it's really weird because it's changed over the years. As we were talking about before, I've been in the man community, or, you know, for a long time, and have you, the social media man community, and I understand all the history. You're not using the words. I'm not going to use those words. I'm not going to use those. Well, because it's more than just that word. It's, you know, there's, you, we could do a whole history lesson on this. But yes, but today, to use terminology that is okay, that people use, is that most men think that women just want Chads, right? The Chad, the chiseled jawline, you know, superior genetic man. And they're not entirely wrong in the sense that I think a lot of this comes from dating apps where women are just looking based on.

John: Looks and the Chads, I mean, Chads do well there. Physical appearance is focused for everybody, right? But since you mentioned that, we've talked about this before, obviously, and I want to get this thrown in there while you're on this topic. I've always felt like guys feel that way because they are so physically focused. And I'm not saying that women aren't attracted to attractive men. That is true. I think all human beings are attracted to attractive people. So, I'm not saying that women don't want to find a guy attractive or won't find these Chad guys attractive. What I am saying, though, is that I feel like sometimes these guys that are like, "Oh, she only wants a Chad," are thinking that because they only want a super hot girl, or they want somebody that they find super attractive.

Nicole: And so, they're almost projecting their way of choosing a partner onto women, right? Whereas we'll get further in that it's usually not physically focused to the extent that men think it is. As a woman, yes, you do have to be attracted to the person that you're with, but it's not to that extent. And that's why there is this phenomenon of hot girl, ugly guy. And like, I don't want to call anybody ugly. I feel bad, but okay, so let me break down what I was going to say. So, most men, I would say today, believe this thing. And there's nothing wrong with it. I mean, there is truth to it, but it's their whole belief. They believe that this governs everything, and this is how it works, and this is the only thing. Like, a hot guy is just the ultimate dude, and there's none left for them because the hot guy gets all the things.

John: But the reality of it is, my answer as to why do hot women date ugly men is because a lot of guys would say they don't. In fact, that's what the majority of guys watching this podcast right now are already commenting. They don't date ugly guys; they only date Chads. So, I get it. I'm one of you guys. I understand the mindset. I'm a guy. Yes, I am one of you guys. So, I'm not a traitor to the cause. However, here's the thing. I actually believe that it is true what you said, that women will date ugly guys because, as you said, men focus on looks, and they think that women do because that's what they do.

Nicole: Right. A guy, you tell a guy about a girl, and she's attractive, he doesn't really even care about any other attribute about her to start. Maybe we're talking long-term relationships and commitment and stuff. That's sure. Okay, women, that's not the case. A woman might be attracted to a guy initially, but I think what the thing is, is why women will date guys they're not as attractive is because those guys have what is actually attractive to those women, which is status primarily, and game. Like, a guy having game, as we could define it, but basically social skills, social credit, social ability. The social value is what makes a guy more attractive to a woman.

John: Yeah, there's a combination of aspects, but a woman will date a guy that's not as attractive if he has a high degree of status. Other people think that he is, for example, let's look at some of these rappers with tattoos on their face. They're not, let's just be honest, they're ugly. They can take it; they're rappers; they got a lot; they can cry in their millions of dollars, but they're ugly. There's a lot of rock stars that are ugly. There are attractive ones as well, but women will go crazy for those guys. Why? Because they have high status.

Nicole: Well, they have confidence, right? And when I say status, I think some people think that status just means like you're a celebrity. That's not necessarily it. It's really perceived social status, or it's contextual. So, that's why if a guy goes into a bar and he talks to a girl, and he doesn't have to be the most attractive guy in the world, but he's smooth, he's got what we would call game. He's got the million-dollar mouthpiece, you could say, right? That he knows how to talk and how to come across as confident, as charming, as funny, as charismatic. Those types of things can get a woman's interest, and it's not based on looks. And I believe this brings more to the table.

John: Yeah, and I believe this not just from a perspective of this is just, you know, most people go based on what they're told, but because I literally coached guys on how to do this. I did this myself, and I'm an ugly guy. So, that's why I was so offended. No, I mean, I was offended by your topic choice because it's like, why do hot women like ugly guys? I would not even classify myself as hot, and then you're definitely not ugly. Like, we all know that here.

Nicole: No, I'm just playing with you. But that's my explanation for it. I do think one thing that you mentioned, I actually had like a little Eureka moment.

John: Oh yeah?

Nicole: Because you agreed that men kind of frame how women would go after a guy by being like, he has to be physically hot, or you don't stand a chance. Men also do that emotionally. So, I think that is where they get mixed up. They're like, "Oh well, I only care if the girl's hot, so this woman only cares if this guy's hot, so I don't even stand a chance." Just like when they're actually in a relationship, he's trying to logic the woman and take away her emotional part because that's how he acts. So, I think maybe a lot of the struggle for men is not embracing a woman's natural being, the feminine. He doesn't understand the feminine. He's expecting a woman to act the way that he would act, from even the very beginning, from even dating, being like, "Okay, well, this woman only wants the hottest guy there is," but that's not what's important to women because women realize that what is going to stay long-term, which is what women want, is how a person is on the inside and who he actually is. And now, like I mentioned before, I'm not saying that a woman doesn't prioritize being attracted to a man because you do need to be attracted to the person you're with. You do need to want to have sexual intimacy with the person that you're with, so that is important. So, women do focus on looks to some extent, but I think women's idea of attractive is also different from men. Like, a woman might be attracted to something, whereas men typically have this almost certain.

John: The structure of how they think a woman is beautiful is why there's so much plastic surgery. That's why women are getting lip injections because someone somewhere said that guys like big lips, and they like big boobs, and they like big butts.

Nicole: There is a little bit more of a structure for what men find attractive, whereas for women, it's not as defined. If you look at the stimulating material for different sexes, men look at visual pictures, pornography, but women typically read books, like romance novels. Even the smuttiest book with graphic sex scenes is still not visual.

John: Most women wouldn't want to read a book that's nothing but sex scenes. They want a buildup, a story. They prefer to use their imagination to get the ultimate experience in their mind. A guy will look at an image or a woman and be attracted to her, but a woman might be attracted to a man more by the story she's put in her head about him.

Nicole: That's why how a man walks into the room, what he's dressed in, matters. For women, lingerie is a suit and tie. It's not about being more naked. The suit and tie tell a story about the guy, which is often a status-based story. If an ugly guy can get a woman to construct a story about him that hits her attraction triggers, then she's going to be attracted to him. She won't even see that he's ugly.

John: Women's wiring is maybe 20-30% visual, and the rest is the story they have about the guy. What they end up actually learning about the person, which is part of that story, can be false, true, or imagined. The more it matches reality, the more we get disappointed because of the imagination where they've created the story.

Nicole: When you mentioned that men think women think like they do, it made me think about them trying to unemotionalize women. My first tip for men is not to look at what a woman wants from your perspective. Instead, have charisma, confidence, talk to women, be the best version of yourself. Being uniquely yourself is what will separate you from others.

John: You don't have to be a Chad to get the girl you like. The "Chad" guys, the ones that fit that stereotype, they have other things that make them attractive to women, not necessarily for a long-term successful relationship, but they're confident, they say what they want.

Nicole: They've gotten positive reception from people over time, which has trained them into that behavior. Guys will say, "I could be confident, but Chad doesn't need to be confident." No, Chad is confident because he's a really good-looking guy.

John: Confidence is something you can have; you just have to work harder than Chad because you weren't genetically given "Chad face." A lot of guys think they'll go to the gym, get jacked, get down to 8% body fat, and then women will be all over them. No, gay guys will find you fantastically attractive because gay guys think like guys, at least from a sexual perspective.

John: They still have that wiring, so that's why if you get jacked, buff, and ripped, gay guys will like you. And if you like that, that's fine. But the thing is, if you're trying to attract women, what will happen is, if you're attractive to women because you have game or charisma, you've got that going for you, then the woman will say, "Oh, look at his bulging biceps." She's not going to say, "Oh, look at his bulging biceps," and be attracted. She's going to now look at your physical attributes in a better light. It's going to magnify those things that you have. Like, if you're a buff and ripped guy, yeah, women like that, but it won't save you from all the other. If you're an attractive guy before that, and now you have that, now she's going to talk about those things. Now it's going to magnify those things, but that alone isn't going to get you there.

Nicole: Right. I mean, I think we should segue then into the next thing I kind of want to talk about with this topic. So, for a man and for women, both ways, looks cannot save anybody. Even from a man's perspective, because a guy will go out with the super hot girl and then continue to kind of date her, and then be like, "There's something missing." Like, you know, they end up being like, "Okay, 'cause it's kind of the same thing with the Chad, actually." And it does happen just as much with women, with the Chads as it does with the Britney, we'll call it Britney, you know, the hot who doesn't have as much depth. Okay, yeah, they both are lacking depth, and a lot of time, it's because they haven't had to develop. It's the Becky. They have, there's the word. Yeah, it is. Oh, okay, Becky. The vo, it was a B. So, I was there. Go look at memes on the internet, I guess. But yeah, so the same thing actually ends up happening with both of these people, the Chad and the Becky. They have confidence in themselves because of what they were naturally given, and so a lot of times, they haven't developed any other way. 'Cause they can already get their foot in the door with how they look. And so then, people are dating these people, and then they're like, "Okay, but this is as far as it goes because there's no deeper I can go with this person. Like, it doesn't even exist." And it's not like necessarily their fault, but in a way, it's like, also, the hot people can't just rely on their looks strictly either, or you end up missing the other part. And the thing is, with men and women, when they're going for a long-term relationship, you eventually have to get over the looks because that is the one thing that will fade 100% with both people. Like, yes, guys might get hotter the older they get, but they all reach 70, and they look the same as the woman. And the newness of it will fade.

John: Right. The novelty of how hot this person is because now you'll see them in very not as hot situations, especially with a guy and a woman. Like, if you go out and you meet a woman, and she's dressed up to the nines, and she's got her makeup on, she's doing all this stuff, she's not going to look the same when you wake up next to her in the morning, and she took all of her makeup off and stuff. I'm not saying that they look worse, you know, but sometimes it's a drastic difference. So, you know, like being very kind. But see, that's why glow-up people are the best because glow-up people, oh yeah, because we already, we had to work on, you were ugly in grade school. You end up appreciating your hotness more when you're developing other aspects of your person.

Nicole: No, that's very true. Yeah. So, that is good. But you know what's the real shame? People who are not in the Chad/Becky category, and they're just angry and bitter, and so they don't develop the other side either. And then they got nothing going for them. And then, yeah, then truly, I get their plight at that point.

John: Who is that mostly? Because we talked about this too, that women are typically the ones to work on themselves more than men are.

Nicole: It is. It is more normally that it is men who just get stuck in this, you know, angry. Look, I wish I made a mistake. I wish I would have gotten into the women's personal development space. I would be a billionaire by now.

John: Okay, I'm teaching. You're a little abrasive for women sometimes.

Nicole: Okay, fine. No, yeah, I'm teaching men personal development. That's a hard space to be in. There's not that many. Yeah, but men should really appreciate that you're helping them out. 'Cause I mean, we were kind of talking about this, that it's just, if they're so angry and they're posting all these things about how they don't like women.

John: Right. Do you not think women are seeing that? Like, they see that. That is actually like an ick, pushing women further away.

Nicole: I don't care. I don't care what women think. They care, interested in that. That's like so dramatic. That's acting like a woman. I mean, like, I don't care. It's fine. Whatever. I'm happy, and they're not. Like, if you're constantly posting how much you hate women or hate marriage or whatever on the internet, you're not happy. Like, people who are actually happy don't take the time to do that stuff.

John: No, they don't. Yeah, there's this book I'm reading called, uh, what is it? It's this kind of really weird book, but it's called Transurfing. I know some people will work, but he talks about, I mean, probably one of the most useful things I've read in the book is this idea of a pendulum, right? And the Pendulum is sort of like any that gets momentum. And he says that you give the pendulum your energy and your momentum, whether you give it positive or negative, it doesn't matter which one, it'll take both. And so that's what happens with these guys, is like they're giving that pendulum energy by, you know, if you're like, "Oh, women are bad," then just don't talk about them. Right? If you really believe that, then don't talk about them and don't interact with them. But if you talk about them and you say how bad they are, you're giving that whole thing energy. You're giving your energy. Like, you're only going to get guys to be like, "Yeah, brother." So, like, you're not getting girls. Like, if your goal is to get girls, and that's why you're so upset, is because you can't get girls, and so you're going to talk girls on the internet, you're only going to get guys.

Nicole: Right. Same like with going to the gym. Like, there is a reason that women like Dad bods. Like, I'm not saying all of them do.

John: Women do not like Dad bods.

Nicole: Some women do.

John: No, they don't. They're full of crap.

Nicole: Some women do. Some women like to socially say that they do.

John: All I think is women have different preferences than men.

Nicole: No, not like. And I'm not saying that like, it probably comes from a place where a guy with.

John: A dad bod might make a woman feel more comfortable with herself. Let's talk about that. That is another thing that even the hot girl, ugly guy aspect could involve, right?

Nicole: Let's talk about hot girls. Typically, they can be pretty insecure, and that's why they're really focusing on their looks and trying to be as hot as they can. So, by being with an uglier guy, that could create a sort of security for her that, okay, well, I'm hotter than this guy, so he's not going to go find somebody else because I'm hot. It's kind of shitty to say, but I'm not saying that all dynamics are like that because I don't believe that all dynamics are like that. I think it's most of the time the hot girl is just really in love with who the guy is.

John: Sure, yeah. But there has to be said that there probably are some dynamics out there where this girl has chosen a guy that is not necessarily on her level because it gives her the security of like, okay, well, you know, I'm up here and he's maybe like over here, so he's probably not going to go look for some other woman. Whereas if a woman is with a guy that's hotter than her, or you know, even maybe on the same level, she might be like, oh well, everybody knows he's hot. People are going to hit on him or try to go after him.

Nicole: But why would she worry about that because on his looks though? If women don't select on looks, they might for the night.

John: Ah, they might for you. Oh, you shouldn't have said that. Not for a relationship, you know. All the guys, you just lost everything because every guy is like, oh, for the night, then I'm right because it doesn't matter because guys aren't, they don't care about relationship, they only focus on for the night. I mean, a guy would rather be attractive to a woman for the night than a relationship, 99% of guys.

Nicole: But didn't you also say guys want relationships?

John: Oh yeah, no, for sure. You would rather be attractive to a woman that she would sexually desire you than to want to be in a relationship with you. Like that would, obviously, you'd want a woman to be in a relationship with you that you like, but you'd rather have the one. And a guy like me would never compromise the two for the one. Like I'd be like, no, there's no way. But I'm not saying that you couldn't have it the other way either. I'm just saying that, like we talked about, yes, women still are going to notice attractive people. And the only way that that would motivate her in that moment is if it was just strictly for a short amount of time because, like you said, if a woman is ruminating over who this guy is, if she doesn't see past this point, then it doesn't matter.

Nicole: Okay, so she's not looking at a hot guy being like, I'm going to marry this guy. She's just looking at him like he's hot. Look, I get it. But see, this is where we were going with this conversation before. This conversation, I won't say the names of the thing, but this is one of those pill awakenings for guys. Like, a lot of guys that never heard this concept, that never heard that a woman would select a guy just for a short term based on his looks, their hearts all just got broke. They just got smacked in the face with reality hard. And that's what we're talking about. That is a smack in the face that, like, you just uttered some words that most women will never utter and admit to, is that women will select a guy based on his looks just for a short-term thing.

John: Yeah, that's... Tell me also about why a woman is doing that.

Nicole: Because women aren't going to do that at every opportunity. A woman is only going to do that when she's out at a bar, upset about something going on in her life, needing some validation, needing to go home with someone for the night. So why would she not go based on looks alone? Because she's not looking long term, even in that situation. To counter my own thing, it's not even looks alone at that point. That's where it still is game, like where, because she's not going to go up and be like, you're hot, let's leave.

John: Well, yeah, even I have seen many social situations in that exact context where it's clear that this woman is going home with somebody tonight. And I have seen the hot, tall, good-looking guy that doesn't have any game get outmaneuvered by the shorter, not ugly guy, but a guy that you definitely would not have said this girl's going to pick this guy over this guy. I've seen it happen. So, you're saying game's more important.

Nicole: Oh, it's the number one most important thing for sure. I mean, I think that is true based on what we said in the very beginning. All I'm saying is in this instance, where the only time that a woman is going to value a man's looks to the extent is if it's very temporarily, and even then, it can be ruined. Well, even then, that can be overcome by a guy that has more charisma, in-game, that creates the story in her head that she's looking for.

John: Yeah, that's true. So, but that is a good example. You just got so excited.

Nicole: Well, because it's such a good example because that is what, like when guys, I understand, but it's everything to guys because they're thinking like women.

John: No, it's not. It's everything to guys because guys, why do they care so much about being attractive? They should care more about having game, like you said, or being charismatic and having like status, swag, what do they call it, Riz these days, right? That is being attractive. So, I've always put this to guys, this podcast will go a little bit off the PG right now, but cover your children's ears. Check that box when we, okay, so I tell guys this all the time when I was coaching them. I say, would you rather have a girl that is, let's say in your rating, again, I don't really like to give you know, point rating to people, but let's just, okay, you know, so in your rating that you would rate her as a seven who is just all over, just so want you so badly, okay, or would you rather have, I'm not even using the term that I, I'm actually making this PG. No, no, I'm making a PG because, okay, I would say it a little bit more vulgarly to these guys, but basically, would you rather have a girl that is in your estimation, your rating, a seven but just really wants you sexually badly, okay, thinks you're the hottest thing in the world, or would you rather have a 10 in your rating who lets you have sex with her? Men would pick a 10 that lets you. They would pick that. But what you're saying is true, that they should value...

John: The seven who actually cares about them, but you and I know, look, see, you think that men would pick the 10. You've even agreed at some point, we've had a conversation similar to this, that men will pick the 10, and even if it's that she let him have sex with her, that is who he would pick.

Nicole: Okay, we're going to have to settle this in the comment section. People are going to have to tell us what they think, but I don't think they'll be honest. I think that your perception of it is just as skewed as a man's perception is of what women want because you're thinking of it from a woman's perspective. But a man, most men, should want the seven. I'm saying this, I agree with you, but what I'm saying is I really do think that men would go with the 10 because this is what men do. They go around and they're like, "Guess who I banged last night?" They pull up the girl's Instagram, and they're like, "Oh, you banged a 10." They're not going to be like, "I banged a seven, but she was really into me." A guy's going to be like, "Sure, yeah." But no, I mean, that's fine, but they do it for clout too.

John: Like, about, but I'm talking about what do they really want because here's the thing, here's the deal, right? If that were the case, if men would choose the 10 over the seven who really wants them, all they have to do is hire a hooker because she, and a lot of guys do make that choice. But why do the guys that hire the hooker, why do they still feel like there's something missing in their life? Because they still want to be desired by women, right? Because, and that's why, like, where I got off on this tangent was the whole thing was why I'm saying that is why what you said is so important to men is because men are going to hone in on the reason why men are so upset by the whole concept of the Chad thing and all this stuff is because every man deep down wants a woman to be very sexually attracted to him, whether he be single or even in a marriage or relationship. That still is the number one priority for a man.

Nicole: But it's two sides of the same coin, right? Because this guy's getting this super hot girl, and he's not as into it because she doesn't crave him, doesn't desire him. Whereas women, if the guy's just hot, right, she's missing that, so she doesn't want that either. That's why you said that the game is so important and the charisma is because you have to have that. Like, that is the desire that causes the desire from the woman. If you're just hot, yeah, she'll look at you, she'll go talk to you, but you can ruin that.

John: Sure, exactly, yeah. If you have the other parts, that's what creates the desire. And that's why you can't necessarily, like, it's the same thing, right? Like, it's two people kind of wanting the same thing, right? Like, women don't want this shallow thing. They might, for a night, right?

Nicole: Right, but normally, like you said, she still needs more than just, "You look hot," right?

John: Yeah, but anybody, if they're only looking for something for a night, is going to try to find somebody they find attractive and are interested in to some other degree besides just that. But long term, the thing that is sustainable is who a person is inside because looks will fade, of course.

Nicole: No matter who you are. Yeah, I agree. So, so yeah, so that's so, so we were talking about the second or, well, I mean, the other reason why women would be with an ugly guy is because of her own insecurity, right? And the idea, and I think that is true. I think that does happen. I think that women, in that case, though, the downside of that is that a woman's actually settling in that case because she's not actually, and when we're saying that she's doing, in this case, it's an ugly guy that she's not as physically attracted to, but also doesn't have necessarily the game or the charisma because she doesn't have the story. She's not, we could just summarize it by saying she's not sexually attracted to the guy, but she's chosen the guy because he's safe.

John: Right, women value, and maybe he has money, maybe he has resources. I mean, those all fall into that same category of he's safe. He's not a guy that other women are going to want, right? And so she's settling, and so that she's a flight risk, in the sense that her desires are not satisfied. Like, she might be still looking to flirt with other guys or fully desiring the, she's got the safety net, and then the guy, this is something that, again, talking about the pill, you know, guys, is that guys don't realize that women do this, that they become the safe guy, and that's the worst position for a guy to be in, to be the safe guy. Because that's where the guys that are commenting on some of our earlier videos, that's where they're right. That's where the situations that they're talking about, where the woman takes half the stuff and the kids, and like, because she was never happy to begin with. She settled for the guy, she used him for his resources or his safety or the comfort that he could provide, and now, when she finds a better option, she is out of there and taking half of his stuff and like, those guys are right in that you end being that guy. You cannot be the guy that women settle for. In fact, I would say that it's, well, because the woman needs to feel like the man is, is, is better than, to look up to him.

Nicole: Yeah, she needs to look up to him. She needs to respect him, and she needs to trust him. She has to be with somebody that she's proud to be with. As someone who's been with somebody that I wasn't even proud to be with before you and I got together, like, and I, I'm putting myself on blast for right now, like being honest, but I'll do it. But like, I was not proud to be with the person that I was with before you and I got together, and it was just, I don't know, I felt like I was trying to do the other option because, as a woman, like so many people that I knew, like my guy friends and my girlfriends, were like, "Well, date somebody that's not who you normally would go for." And so, in my mind, I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to date some guy that like isn't my typical type that I go for, and like, you know, is does this and, you know, is not a jerk and whatever." But the thing is that like, there wasn't that connection that should have been there, and I wasn't like, I wasn't proud to be with the person. And right, they actually ended up being not as nice as I thought they were, you know, like there's that aspect too. So, it's like, you know, I still, though, think it goes back to vetting the person because it does, it, like, people are going to get pissed at me, but the thing is, like, you could tell that a woman doesn't have the desire for you and.

John: You can tell that she doesn't really respect you or trust you. You have to be the one, though, to have the conversation and leave if that's what the reality still is. Look, I tell guys all the time, right? I think we said it in the first episode, right? I'm like, look, what is the criteria that you look for in a woman, right? For a long term, for that you would marry or in a relationship. Is that number one, she has a high desire for you. Number two, she treats you really well. You could say, I mean, I use the word "King." Some people don't like it, but it's fine. Like, I'm just saying, that's what it is. That she has a higher desire for you and she treats you really well. And if guys are ignoring the fact, if they're like, "Oh well, you know, she's with me, so she must like me." No. Do you feel like she has a high desire for you? If you don't feel like she has a high desire for you, get out of there because she might be settling for you. And you know, you want to be the guy that she has the highest sexual desire for, otherwise, she's going to have it for someone else. And that's, I mean, these are the hard, cold truths of reality. If you can't become that guy, then you better transform and become that guy by learning some other things and developing your skill, and you know, developing your bedroom skills and all the things that you need to develop on, you know. I mean, till you become that guy because if you're not, you are in trouble. Like, you are in trouble, and women will make the choice, and they will settle for you. And they might even love you, but not to the full extent. But some people don't even know what the full extent is. And I get that too.

Nicole: But what you're saying is true. Women want relationships, so they will go try to find a guy that, you know, ticks the boxes, but there might still be important things that are missing. And especially because men like to remind us that our biological clock is ticking and our physical look clock is ticking, which just puts more pressure on women to settle down. And then they end up doing what you just said, thinking they're doing the right thing because they want to start a family and they want to be with somebody. But the thing is, it's really hard to be dating right now, and I know it's hard for guys too because, with dating apps, it's really physical looking. And so, even though what we're saying is women don't put as much emphasis on the physical appearance, still, there is more emphasis because of dating apps. That's what gets you. Go out into the real world, learn to go and approach women and talk to them. It still is a thing. I mean, guys don't like to hear it, but it is a thing. You can go and talk to a woman, you can see a woman walking down the street. You have to do it in a respectful way because here's where the problem with that is. You're telling men to do that, and they're still kind of angry, but they're like, "Okay, well, I'm going to go try." Well, that's the puppy dog thing. I just, that's why I was saying, like, "Come over here, you stupid dog. Yeah, I want to love you. Don't you know I would love you better than any other dog owner, you dumb dog?" Well, that's what happens.

John: They come into the grocery store or whatever, and they see a woman they want to talk to, and then a woman might be like, "No, I'm not interested." And then it's like, you don't know what that guy's going to do. And most of the time, it's not like, "Okay, have a nice day," which is what it should be. Most of the time, it's like, "Well, why? You have a boyfriend? What's wrong with me?" And like, "I'm just trying to buy some groceries." Or they'll go to the gym, and they'll try to have a conversation, but then if it's not going the way that they want, they freak out. And that is why women have gotten to a point where they're like, "Don't even talk to me. I don't want anybody to talk to me." And so, it is harder for men to meet women out in the real world, but it's because of the angry guys, shooting their one shot and not knowing how to actually do it, and then getting pissed, shooting it so hard. Then it's, yeah, and then like exploding on everybody.

Nicole: It's actually more of the puppy dog thing. It's like, "Oh, come here, cute little puppy dog. Why aren't you fucking coming over here?" It's like, as soon as they're not getting the thing they want, then all of a sudden, the real personality is coming out.

John: Right, exactly. Which is also scary as a woman because it's like, even when you go on dates, you're like, "Is this how this guy actually is, or is he just going to freak out on me?" I mean, like you've seen some of my friends what they've been dealing with with guys where it's like, a woman could be like, "Hey, just letting you know, like, I'm not interested, but I wish you the best." Send a very respectable response, and then they're met with, "Well, fuck you. Venmo me the $7 from our ice cream date." It's like, that is, it's real. And here's a bonus dick pic. Here you go. It's a real thing, and it's a real problem that women face with these guys who are so angry. And they do, I know that they're trying, but they're still not, they're still allowing their anger to spill out, and it's very scary for women, especially because, even as this is a whole another thing, but you know, as women, we're afraid to even go on a first date. Like, will we be murdered? Right? Like, people think I'm being dramatic, but it's like, it's a real thing. So, not knowing how a guy is going to respond is a very scary thing for a woman.

John: And so, I don't know if we've talked about this already, but I know we will talk about it. Like, I've talked about it in our personal lives, but what men don't realize too is that if they go up and meet a woman and she's like, "Um, you know, I'm not really interested. I'm sorry." And he's like, "Okay, I just wanted to come talk to you," and then leaves, she might now be interested in you because you just respected her decision.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree with that. We're so used to men not respecting our decision that when a man comes up and even if he gets rejected and he handles it properly, it's like, "Oh my God, actually, he might be my next husband." And again, handling it properly, again from a kind of a game perspective, it doesn't have to be that you just say okay and walk away. It can be that you say, "Okay, cool."

John: Deal. What I mean is, when you start a conversation from that point, I was like, "Yeah, I was just a little nervous to come up to you anyway. But yeah, you know, how's your day going?" I don't want to be that weird guy or whatever. Whatever you do, just be cool so that it doesn't come across as odd. Sometimes you need to know when to not continue the conversation. That's also uncomfortable, even more uncomfortable as a woman if you've told this guy, "Hey, I'm not interested," and he's still trying to talk to you.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, you got to know when to back off. It also depends on the context, right? So, if you go up to a woman in a grocery store and she tells you she's not interested, okay, that's a little bit different than going up to a woman in a bar or nightclub, and she says, "I'm not interested," or "I have a boyfriend." That situation, in a nightclub or the bar, a little bit of persistence may pay off because it may be that she's just trying to deflect all these guys that are coming at her. But you got to still have the social skills. Which again, as I say these things, I caution that I worry that guys will misinterpret what I'm saying and do the wrong thing. But if you don't know, if you can't calibrate yourself and know whether the context makes sense and what you're doing, and read her emotional cues that she's giving you all the time, then just walk away. This is like a whole separate thing. So, we got to go back to what we were actually talking about. But you know, a little side note there, a little extra tip. But yeah, so I think the reason I brought this up though was mostly for men to realize that women don't go about dating the way that they do, and that men think that they do. And that also, I do agree with what you said, that like, I don't think men should be just settled for.

John: I don't think anybody should be just settled for ever. Like, nobody deserves that. And so, you know, I'm not saying if a hot girl comes up to you and you feel like you're an ugly guy, you should be like, "What is she doing?" Because she might actually like you. So, I'm not saying that, but at the same time, be a little standoffish. You should be able to figure out if this person is like on their safety net, right? Or if, you know, oh, they actually really love me for who I am, like on the inside. And you can tell, like, you really can. Like we talked about, you know, the desire, the respect, the trust, like those things will be there if that person really values you as a person rather than just having you there because you bring them some sort of safety or security. And then, like I said, I mean, for a guy, they need to make sure that the woman is sexually attracted to them. That's how they'll know. Or because if you don't see that, then she is in some way saying, to be fair, that doesn't mean that she goes home with you on the first night. In fact, it might mean not doing that, which women, you shouldn't do that. Just, we'll do a whole another episode. We'll do an episode on that for sure, on girl game, basically.

Nicole: What the girl game is. John thinks I invented girl game. I mean, you definitely are a pioneer in the like, women don't even have any clue about girl game today, for the most part, right? It is, it's unfortunately like the thing that came about was that guys have an agenda, right? And so, you have to work the system. I'm not saying lie. I'm not saying be unauthentic because I've never felt like I wasn't myself when I dated and had to navigate a guy's agenda. But you do have to be strategic as a woman because guys are only going for one thing initially, and you have to get past that, almost like a game. And you're like, you got to make it past that obstacle that he's going to put you in. The guys that you want as a woman are only going for one thing. Why do you say that?

John: Because then, you think like the nice guys will be like, "Oh yeah, let me take you." All the nice guys in the comment section are going to come out, and they'll be like, "I don't want just that. I just want a girl to love." 'Cause that's what they do. That's what they really want.

Nicole: No, but why they're nice guys. But the first time they meet you, like, I think most women know that a guy would want to go home with you on the first date. The guy that they want. There's a lot of other guys that would be like, "No, I don't want to do that." And they really mean they don't want to do that 'cause they don't know, they can't get in touch with their sexuality. That's a whole another episode. That's why they're nice. I think that's kind of generalizing, but hey, I coach guys. I'm telling you, this is a common thing. Well, promise you.

John: So, but alright. I think we, I mean, did we cover all the ugly guy thing? I think pretty much. Women shouldn't use men just as a security net. Like, I want to say that. I'm not just trying to harp on men.

Nicole: No, and whether you're hot or not, embrace who you are. And that's what makes you unique. And that's what makes you stand out. Because like, hotness is subjective. Like I said, like for guys, there is typically like a criteria that they have, and they are a little bit less picky. I'm not going to lie, but like, you know, for the night, they're less picky.

John: Yeah.

Nicole: But, um, you, the real thing that makes you stand out is being who you are. Like, there's going to be people who don't think you're hot, even if some people do think you're hot, and vice versa. Like, if you don't think you're hot, someone's going to think that you're hot. So, like, just embrace who you are, have the confidence.

John: Well, okay, but women say all the time to guys, "Just be who you are," and that's, it's not really accurate. Because it's like, "Just be you." That's horrible advice to give to guys.

Nicole: Why?

John: It's such bad advice. The guys that are like, "Oh, just be you." Okay, you know, they're like, "Alright," they get friend-zoned all the time if they're just so. So, I think the, I get what you're saying though. And that's why I want to make the interpretation for the guys that, because believe me, this is worse than the fisherman thing, right? This is the whole thing. It's like, "Ah, just be you." That's what women tell me all the time. It's just, you know, and then the same women tell you that, that friend-zone you, that tell you that because it's not true. What it is, but I get the heart behind it, and that's why I want to translate it, is what it really means is be the authentic you without ulterior motive, right? And be that version of you that you have to work.

John: On yourself to become that right because I firmly believe that the purpose of personal development is not to actually become something you're not but to get rid of all the layers of stuff that you're not that's been built up on top of you. That prevents you from being that wonderful King Lion, you know, of a man that you are. The beast inside, it's there somewhere, even in the nice guy, but he's got to get rid of all that junk. All the... well, you have to know how to do it too. You can't just go straight to being an asshole.

Nicole: Yeah, it's not about being an asshole, you know. It's about being truthful, being honest, having boundaries, sticking up for yourself, sticking up for other people, you know. Like, it encompasses a bunch of things because the problem is like when guys get the advice of just, you know, be who you are or just, you know, just be yourself, they just present themselves as their dorky, hard-on-their-shoulder, the things that make you unique.

John: Like, I know what you mean by it. If you really like, yeah, cat sweaters, I mean, then you know, but you got to own it hard. You have to own it hard. Own that you are the creator of the cat sweater and like, you got cat sweater with some swagger. You got to have the swagger.

Nicole: Makes sweaters for cats, okay, fine. Yeah, okay, whichever one, you know, whatever you make sweaters for cats, you got to have some swagger with it, right? That's what I'm saying though, but I'm saying like, own the things because I feel like sometimes people are like, "Oh, I can't bring this up because it's not cool," or whatever. Like, that's more so what I mean. Like, embrace the parts of you that are like, yeah, nerdy or different because like, you want somebody that appreciates those things about you, and you will find that. And if you find somebody that appreciates your love for making cat sweaters, yeah, don't you think they'll love all the other things about you as well too?

John: Yeah, but it has to be presented in the right packaging. I'm not saying just like, you know, guys get that advice and then they, they don't, it doesn't end up well for them when they just quote be themselves. They, you have to develop yourself. You have to develop. Everybody should, and that's like a whole separate thing is on like growth and you know, that whole topic. So, I won't get into it because I feel like we'll spiral, but being authentic, right, is seems like be yourself to me. It's a little bit more defined.

Nicole: Yeah, it's deeper than being yourself. It's like, it's almost like being your true self, like the uninhibited self. Don't people please, but don't be an asshole either. Like, don't be one extreme or the other. Like, have standards, have boundaries, and embrace the things about you that make you unique.

John: All right, well, I guess we can get to our segment of us talking about us in a relationship.

Nicole: Yeah, it's my turn, I think, about this one. I mean, we had a conversation this week about leadership in the relationship and control and authority and things like that. And we handled it well. We worked through it. We talked about the issues. It was kind of funny because one of it was related to the podcast, like the second episode of the podcast, where it seemed like I was being abrasive, which I do admit that I come across as abrasive. I don't necessarily think that's necessarily a bad thing. Many times it's hard with the videos and stuff because it makes me sad that people are seeing just this one side of you, and they don't see the other amazing part.

John: You know what I mean. Like, you do show that. I'm not saying you don't at all, but I feel like, you know, when you're giving advice and you're giving guys advice, like, I get wanting to be direct and blunt because I'm the same way too. So, I think that that was just my thing. I was like, I don't want people to get the wrong opinion of you, even though I understand why you're giving it in this way. I don't want people to think that you're just this abrasive guy all the time because you're not. At the end of that episode, as we had a discussion, then at the end of the episode, I did talk about... I know that, and that was my fault because I like, you know, jump the gun.

John: That's fine, but it was a good conversation because we had a good conversation about leadership and things like that. And it's... I'm sure we'll do an episode on how a man should lead. That really came from actually the Toto thing, right?

Nicole: Right, yeah, because there was, I don't know if you want to go into the...

John: Well, no, I'm just saying, you know, there was just, yeah, in a conversation we had where it appeared to me that Nicole wasn't following my lead on the thing, but we discussed it and worked it out and figured out the thing. But I think a lot of it, I think we do need to do an episode about that so that guys can understand how to properly lead and what's important to a woman to make her feel heard and valued in that leadership. That it's not just giving orders. That's not the whole...

Nicole: Well, and safe too, especially like if it's not something that she would necessarily do, you know. Like, establishing that trust to just follow what you're saying, and that can be hard, especially we were talking about like women when you're alone and you're single and dating, you handle everything on your own. And then you get in a relationship, and you find a guy you can trust. Like, you still kind of have to let that go of taking care of yourself. And I'm not saying that you can't bring up like your own opinion about the thing, and that's what we're talking about, is like having both opinions or both sides and then still having to make a decision. And that's where the captain thing is the best way to describe it because a captain just doesn't do ever he wants. He's talking to the different people, you know, to figure out the thing, but he still ultimately has to make the decision.

John: So, I agree that it's a good thing. It's just, it is hard sometimes, you know, to like let go of how you've operated for a long time. It's like a woman has to know the man's character and then just trust that he's going to make some mistakes sometimes. He's not going to do things all the right way or even know, but if you really know the heart of the guy, then you're going to know that ultimately he has your best interest at heart, and he's going to evolve and grow and become a better and stronger leader as he makes decisions, and you got to support him along the way, which is, I imagine, it is a hard thing. I mean, you know, sometimes we each take different roles in life, you know.

John: I mean, in different contexts, it is sometimes hard to be in the follower role and to have to trust someone else. And see, sometimes them making well, even if you trust them, it's hard. Like, if you genuinely feel like you have a better way of handling it, to still do the thing the other way. I think that's what's really hard.

Nicole: That's hard, and that's where we could talk about, I think we could do a whole episode and talk about the struggles for women in that, and the struggles for men in that because both of those things are difficult.

John: So, yeah. Alright, I think that ends it then. We'll see you next week, and down in the comments section, bye.

Nicole: Through every way, we find our way.