John: The people you're around influence you. The things that you're watching influence you. I got a Jamaica level problem here. That means he has to go to the bathroom really bad. So, wow, you know it must be bad if you just left me here. Well, luckily he's a man, so he'll go fast, but this is a first.

Nicole: Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John: You did it. I got it down now. The grow is ingrained in your mind. So, I mean, what do we have for the drama for this?

Nicole: The drama. Oh, this has turned into the drama. You know what's going on. You were telling me about some, I don't know, thing that I haven't seen.

John: Oh, the Ser... it's not Serero. I don't even know the full story, but there was that whole thing on TikTok with the man versus bear thing, remember that? It's like, which would you choose, like who's safer? And that got pretty big. And then it didn't look too good when some guy that murdered a couple of women and bragged about it to his dad, and now he's got convicted on trial with tattoos all over his face, a white guy, by the way. Now, a lot of women on TikTok were reposting his and saying all kinds of things and playing the Million Dollar Baby music when he was walking to the courtroom. So, it just didn't look too good.

Nicole: Here's the thing, right. I hear what you're saying, and I get where it can kind of go with the man versus bear thing. But on the other side, like those women who are like, "Oh, that guy is so hot, even though he killed women. You can kill me or whatever," those are very unhealed women. They're kind of the equivalent to the passport Bros we were talking about. Those are unhealed men. And so, acting like that's a majority of women is not the right thing, and just like acting like passport Bros are a majority would not be the right thing either.

John: Yeah, so it's like those sort of women who would be like, "Oh, I would let him murder me." Like, I just feel like, also as a woman, I'd be like, "You are not mentally stable." Like, it's obvious. Because even if some guy was like, there was some hot woman serial killer, and he was like, "Oh, I'd let her kill me," I'd be like, "Okay, you have other issues." And I mean, that's the extreme one, but there is just a lot of like, you know, I wonder, like, "I'll write to him in the psycho ward," or whatever. Like, just a lot of stuff like that. Some people say stuff like that, and some people actually do stuff like that.

Nicole: And they do. But I think, I mean, but the other thing about that too is to understand that it's like, you know, because a lot of guys are going to be like, "Oh, see, this proves that if you're an attractive guy, then..." But it's not just that the guy was necessarily attractive. I mean, he did have a lot of face tattoos.

John: Well, but that's also part of the appeal too, is that there is a biological switch inside of women that is attracted to men that are dangerous or capable of violence. Now, again, it doesn't mean, I don't think that it's in a way where they're like thinking that it would happen to them. It's in a way of, it's like a very perverse way of being like, "Okay, he is capable of this act of violence, so he would protect me to the utmost degree if this happened." And it's not, that's not a linear deduction, even though they're trying to act like it is.

Nicole: No, it's a biological, like, it's an unconscious sort of attraction trigger, is that if a man is dangerous and capable of violence, that women have that unconscious attraction trigger to him. Right, it doesn't have as much to do with how he looks, although, I mean, that doesn't hurt. I'm just saying that there's that piece of it. But again, it's not like you should act upon those things. The flip side, though, to what you're talking about, this whole situation, right, like this is again another man who killed women. There's a guy in San Diego who was a TikToker who killed his estranged wife because she was with some other man. Right, that happens way more often than the reverse, for sure.

John: Yeah, and so women, they are naturally a little bit more afraid of men, and they should be because it does happen. But they don't even like allow that to keep them from interacting with men. They could easily be like, "I have no idea if a man's going to be this way," and in some degree, you do have to think that way when you're getting to know a man because men can also flip a switch and potentially murder you, depending on how their anger management is.

Nicole: Yeah, that's so. It's like, I don't have a lot of empathy for men who are like, "See, they want this serial killer," when like, men actually end up being the killers to women a lot of the time. Like, in these instances, it's most of the time it's men killing women, and most of the time it's them getting upset about something. Right, I just read a book for a book club that I'm in, and a guy in the book got pissed at a man who made a video game because his wife married someone else in the video game and left him. Yeah, and so he went and shot up the place. That does happen, for sure. It's typically men, but women still don't allow that to keep them from dating.

John: Right, and so if they can do that, if they can literally risk potentially being murdered to go on a date with you, well, yeah, why are you trying to demonize her over, like, even though again, it's not like mentally there are some issues if you're fantasizing over some murderer guy, right? But why are you letting that make you further hate women? Does that make sense? Because women aren't letting it, again, they are cautious, I'm not saying they're not, and they should be, but they're still putting themselves out there. They're still risking that to go on dates with people.

Nicole: Yeah, they just have to be smarter about it. So that's why I'm like, I don't, it's not a really good argument to me because I'm like, you guys, like, that are in the comments like, "Oh, look at this girl, like she's fantasizing over a guy that murdered some woman." Yeah, yeah, that's not okay, right? But guys tend to forget that, like, even if they're not the guy that's doing it, that women do get murdered by guys that they're with, right? And then, like, but they still put themselves out there. They're still trying to find love. They're still trying to be in a relationship.

John: Yeah, and instead of letting it, like, take them all the way out, and they turn into passport hoes or whatever, passport girls, you know, they're still trying to go out there.

Nicole: Yeah, the equivalent of the passport ho is the woman that's flown out to Dubai.

John: Okay, well, that's the... Men need to also stop.

John: Doing that, if they're upset about that too, which, like with the OnlyFans thing, you can't be mad and then be buying somebody's OnlyFans. But it's not the same men. That's the thing. It's like the guy that's flying a woman out to Dubai is not the guy that's complaining, you know?

Nicole: So, don't you think that men would want to help influence other men? Like men who are so upset about women doing OnlyFans, don't you think there should be some men who are like doing it in the right way, being like, we should be encouraging these women to not have to sell themselves? I haven't seen anything like that out there. They think they're encouraging it by buying. And women do need to do this stuff on their own. I'm not saying that men have to come along and do it, but I'm just saying that we've talked about this, I feel like, a few times too, that men often get it wrong where they're angry at women, thinking that if I yell at her, if I belittle her on the internet, it'll change her into the woman that I want her to be. Because that's how men act with each other to encourage them to do something right. They're harder on each other. But that is not... That's just going to get a woman to be like, I'm not going near you. And again, it's part of that, like, you seem unstable as a man, right? That's scary. You could murder me.

John: Right, exactly. Yeah, like, it's not worth the risk. So, I understand what you're saying. Those women who are like, I just didn't like to see, like now it just is going to spark the whole debate again because I'm like, look, it's just... It's just, you know, because then, like I said, a lot of guys are going to use that to be like, oh, see, if you're hot, then it doesn't matter. And that's not what it is. There is a trigger of attraction for being dangerous. That is true. That still doesn't make that appropriate. I mean, for instance, if you post something like that and glorify this guy, and then the family of the people who are murdered sees that, they're not really going to enjoy that very much.

Nicole: Right, the guy that murdered, you know, that women are like, oh, but he's hot. Please, like, it's just very poor taste. So anyway, but it does make it hard to then do the man versus bear. It's like, and that's the thing that is upsetting about it, is that look, if you just went and just said that a bear is safer than a man, but then you said, but I like this guy that murdered women, it completely deflates the argument from the man versus bear. But again, like I said, it's going to be different women and different... It's a choice. The women that are talking about the man versus bear thing, they're not talking about men that they, I would say, like, are insanely attracted to. They're talking about men who would, you know, somehow get them in a precarious situation because that's why it's Man versus Bear, right? You're not hanging out with a bear. You're not inviting the bear to your house. It's the same sort of man. It's not a man that you're actively dating or searching out. Again, I'm not justifying both are bad, that for the murderer, but I'm saying that it's the men that will come and stalk you or like find you or like talk to you one time and are showing up and like being like, no, but I love you, but and like acting that way.

John: I get it, versus the bear because the thing is, that's what the playing field is, right? The whole argument is that a bear is not going to come attack you just because you're wearing a bikini or right, inappropriate clothing. He's not going to come like and have sex with you before he kills you.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, I've never been assaulted by a bear, doph, but not a bear. Um, and then, you know, so it's those sort of things. They're not talking about men they're probably not even talking about men they're going on a date with. They're talking about men that are like, yeah, you know, like I just said, like talk to a girl maybe one time and now he's obsessed, and then she doesn't even really know he exists, and then she goes and lives her life, and maybe she's got a boyfriend now, and now he's pissed, and he wants to kill her or the boyfriend, or or their pet bear. I mean, yeah, who knows? But that's where that argument is. So, I don't think they go... Like, I get that men will try to connect those things, and they'll be mad about it, but it's not the exact same. And then those women who are still going after that murder guy, like, that's mental problems that they have.

John: Either of them wasn't good, right? The man versus bear thing was not a good look at all because again, you're grouping men. You're doing the same thing that...

Nicole: Right, and I agree. Then when you're one of those women that said, I would choose the bear, and then you also reposted the million-dollar baby of the murderer in the courtroom, it's really hard to take you seriously at this point.

John: Right, I agree about the man versus bear thing, but at the same time, if women are going to be held accountable for that, then men need to stop doing what you just said. Men need to stop being like, see, this is why women do this because that's the... They're the same thing.

Nicole: Right, exactly. Like the man versus bear thing is the same as seeing something that supports your agenda and your sort of victim mindset and perpetuates that.

John: Exactly. So, it's the same thing. And to be honest, I have more empathy towards women, though, because like I said, women do typically get murdered in those situations more often than men do. I'm not saying that men don't get murdered by women serial killers, but most of the time, it's men murdering women, and a lot of times, men do rape women before they kill them. So, it's like, and as a woman, just thinking about that being your last living experience, I just want men to think about the opposite. They never think about this. They're not worried about that happening to them. They're not worried about somebody forcing themselves upon them and then murdering them. They're not even really worried about a woman murdering them unless it gets to a point where a woman really is upset with him, but he's not constantly going on dates like, I'm worried about this, unless they're in prison, in which case, it's still a man that's going to do that.

Nicole: Well, that's like, that's again, if you're fantasizing over a man in prison, you got other problems.

John: No, if you're in prison as a man, then you are going to worry about that.

Nicole: Well, you got in prison; you don't want to go on those dates anyway, so but you're going to have to go on those dates.

John: So, yeah, well, you did something to put yourself in that situation, so I don't have empathy versus a woman who...

John: It's like being abducted, and then that happens. That's a lot of different experiences. It's a different experience, yeah. But I think if men understood it more, and I'm not justifying it, I know we've gone a different angle, but no, no, I'm not. I'm just saying that you're saying men would be upset from hearing that, and I understand that because it doesn't really make a lot of sense. But if they group all women into that, they're doing the same thing as the man versus the bear. And then they're also, they should probably take some time to think about what women do face when it comes to men because even the man they're fantasizing over killed women, right? And but that's the problem, right? See, because if you want men to take it seriously about the threats that women face, and then there's women, and again it's not all women, but a select group of women in a good amount of them that are now fantasizing about this murderer who straight up ran over women with his car and backed over him multiple times and enjoyed the process, uh, gleefully, and Court as he described it.

Nicole: When it's that, then it's very difficult for those guys to then take what you just said seriously, which they should, but it just, it damages the cause. Just like we've talked about, like so many guys damage their cause. It's like you damage cause when you do that kind of stuff. You have to use your humanity. Like it doesn't matter how women are responding. I hear what you're saying, and I agree, women shouldn't be doing that. This is a very serious matter, but you can look past how other people are reacting and don't allow that to influence your reaction, and you should, obviously. Yeah, because it doesn't matter how women are acting, just like men rally for, you know, uh, like men's mental health problems that aren't taken seriously.

John: Right, exactly. And there are some men who, you know, they might be like, no, we don't need anything, we're good. Like why are you guys whatever. But there's men out there who really do want that, and women don't sit there and they're like, well, you know, some of these other guys kind of ruined it for you guys. Like we don't take it seriously. They do subconsciously, like I'm saying. And that the same thing happens with any of the gripes that men have, right? That compl- not the collective of women, and that's what I'm trying to say. It's not the collective of men should do that. Well, the collective of women doesn't have very much empathy for the men's issues that men face, and it's because of certain men that have made been outspoken and have come out with negative comments about women and complaining and all the, the same stuff that we see in our comments. Those guys make it so that it is less likely that women will have empathy for those points. You see what I'm saying? Because of how they come across.

Nicole: I think you can still empathize with what they're talking about without empathizing with the certain situation that they're trying to paint because they're doing it in the wrong way. Like I don't think every woman, a woman might look at that and be like, okay, this guy, you know, he's just spewing whatever, right? But you can, and everybody should, man or woman, look at the actual problem that someone's trying to address, even if they're not doing it in the correct way, right? And that, take that, and people should try to explain their grievances in a way that is respectful, agree, and will actually have somebody empathize with you. Because if, like, you hurt somebody, right? Or like you did something wrong, or, you know, somebody hurt you, right? And okay, it's better if somebody hurt you. Like let's say you did something to hurt me, okay? Right? You, uh, I don't know, called me a [__] or something, and I'm like, like I just went off on you, and I was like calling you names and yelling and like telling you I hate you because you did that, right? Are you going to have any empathy for me? No, I'm going to be like, see, you're a [__], right? And that's what these men are doing, right? That's exactly what they're proving the point. They're pro- exactly, that's it, right? But it doesn't mean that it takes away from, like, you can still look at me, right, acting like that, and be like, okay, 'cause you, you know, have worked on yourself, you have a deeper understanding, you can look at me and be like, she's obviously hurt, right? And so you, you have that knowledge, you can look at these men and be like, okay, they're hurt, and you can understand where they're coming from, right? But if you do it in the wrong way, you are going to have less empathy, just like these women, right, that you're talking about, they have less empathy, right? But the where it gets messed up, and where men typically have learned to group together nowadays, is that they're over here with their own version of right, man versus bear, and women are over here with man versus bear, right? And so everybody just hates each other. We talked about this. This is like the whole problem. But part of the problem is generalizing all women, right, that are acting this way, and generalizing all men that are acting this wayct. That is the actual problem. And but the problem is, just like you said, it only takes a small minority of bad actors in order to create an entire perception for the whole, right? So it's just like the, the small portion of bad actors that are men that are acting this way make it very hard to have empathy for the wider population of men that are struggling with some of these issues, and the small population of bad actors that are women that are reposting this murderer on and saying good things about him make it really difficult for the large population of women that wouldn't do that or don't think that, who are saying with the be thing, which again, still not, not the best thing, but a real problem that men can be dangerous and unknown wild cards, right? So it hurts the cause, and it only takes a small amount of people to hurt the cause for the larger cause, which is just, well, that's, allow those people to be the voice of the problem, which whether you allow it or not, that it's just, you know, it's control other people. That's what I'm trying to say is that like, people perceive it though. You, I can't control that these women said that, and I know plenty of women personally that would never say something like that.

John: Right, exactly. But we can't stop those women. Besides, that's, I mean, that's why you and I are here right now, is to try to stop women from saying and doing things like that, and to heal themselves, and for men to do the same. But it's just, it, I don't feel like it's a good idea to talk about this and be like, well, see, guys, this is going to back up their cause without saying that this is going to back up their cause because they're choosing to pick right what they want to back up their cause. Because on both sides, there are plenty of resources and things to watch, including this podcast, right, that shows you that there's not people like that out there.

Nicole: Exactly, and those, and still, people comment on our stuff, and they're like, they say the same old stuff. But we can't, the only thing we can do is try to bring to light the

John: The actual correct way to handle all of this, right, and people should look for resources like ours that are trying to make people better people and better together, and to support men and women together rather than divide them because that's all that we've just talked about for this first 20-something minute.

Nicole: Yeah, no, that's true. That's exactly what it is. That's exactly the problem. And that like if we keep perpetuating, well, oh well, this is going to give men ammunition to hate women or on the other side be like, oh, this is going to give women ammunition to hate men, right, that it's we're going to get further away from each other rather than together. And that's why I brought up the fact that men murder women because it's like, okay, women could focus on that and then just never date men. Sure, yeah. And I would be like, okay, that kind of makes sense because you're afraid you're gonna get murdered. Like, I wouldn't even be like, that doesn't really make sense, but they don't do that, like, right, most part, right, they're not a majority of people are doing that. So I'm just saying that like men also should not just be cherry-picking all these things that are perpetuating their mindset, which is pushing them further away from women, which is not what they want deep down.

John: Well, the equivalent is, you know, as you hear the horror stories of men ending up having bad divorces and the, you know, whatever they think the woman gets bored or it's not true, but you know, whatever horror story, there are some horror stories from, and then so then men are like, oh, uh, no, no one should ever get men should never get married, right, which they're perpetuating that more than women do. You ever see women in the comments like men will murder you? Like, there's going to be some, but do you see as many divorce comments of men being like, don't get married versus women like Don't Go Near a man, like right. And to be honest, I'd get a divorce than murdered personally, but you know, I'm just saying that I get it. I get that like men go through like that is something that they're afraid of, right, and that's like the flip side. I understand that, and I understand because personally, no matter how crazy a situation gets, like people should not be harming each other either financially or emotionally or physically in any way. So I do see that their side of it, but I'm just saying that if that's perpetuated and then like this was perpetuated, then what we'd have all lesbians and then guys that just hated women and murdered everybody.

Nicole: Part of it is the algorithm, right, because look, if you post some wholesome content, right, as we know, right, with our F, because we don't say a lot of stuff that's, you know, it's not necessarily, I mean, it doesn't mean that people don't like it, it doesn't mean that it's good, it just is not going to get as shared, and it's not going to get as, but if you post some nasty, you say something nasty about women, you say something nasty about men, that bubbles to the top, right, and then it starts dramatic, and you know, yeah, that's why all these topics that are really divisive end up being at the top, and everyone hears about them, and that's what forms the well, and it perpetuates the Divide too. But that's also why we're here. And I mean, I can only speak for women, like I personally like the wholesome content. Like, there's plenty of content creators I follow that are like married and have kids, and they're just like, it's their everyday life. I think that is coming back a little bit, at least like on the woman's side, that like women are kind of, you know, gravitating towards that kind of stuff, which I'm not saying that they still don't like the drama stuff because there's Keeping Up with the Kardashians and whatnot, but I feel like it's harder for men. And I feel like, you know, this because you constantly like are thinking about okay, well, I want to make this, but like, this is what gets viewed, but I don't want to talk about that, you know, I'm better than that. So it's like, I feel like it's kind of worse for men that they only want to listen to some radical ideal an idea that they can now adopt and then fuel their hatred and fuel their anger.

John: Exactly. And I think that's maybe too part of the problem, which maybe this whole episode should just turn into like whatever we're talking about here that we could classify, but men have more anger than women. And that's also probably too why women will still go and date guys even though they see this woman got murdered and this woman got murdered and whatever, they're still going to be like, okay, well not all guys are like that, so I'm going to try to find a good guy, you know. But guys, like their anger, and women will get angry too at men. I'm not saying that there's, it's not like a like the explosion, it doesn't define their existence, yeah, their identity. But men, like these really angry men, and then they keep watching this like these really radical ideas in these YouTube videos and stuff, and then that fuels that anger, right, to the point where they do become murderers some of the time because they're so angry.

Nicole: Well, and that narrative, I mean, do you want to go into the other topic, or I mean, maybe we should just do this because it's already been like 30 minutes. I mean, it's good because it's a good discussion, but that narrative, right, that men are currently being fed, right, again, and there's reasons why they're being fed that narrative, which is because it gets views, is because it gets attention, is because you feed someone's anger, you feed their insecurities and their weakness, and you give them a reason to believe that they are the victim, and it's not their fault, and people are going to love you for that. They're going to love to eat that up. They want the, you know, the negative emotions. But that same narrative that's being fed to men now was the same narrative that was being fed to women when you had the, uh, the, the new feminist move, you know, which is you go back maybe 10 or 15 years, not to the extreme because we didn't have the internet to the extreme that we do now in social media, but there was a period of time where the same, you know, the same kind of viewpoint that we have of these angry men was the reality of angry women hating men. There does that make it okay? It doesn't make it okay. I'm just saying that this is the cycle, right, because there was the hashtag kill all men, and there was all of this stuff that happened, which that's just ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

John: Exactly. But the same thing happens, the cycle repeats, right, uh, because the, the, the basically the resulting backlash from that created this movement where now it's, and then it's going to just flip again because what's going to happen now as this rises and men are so angry all the time and saying such horrible things about women, women be like, man, men kind of suck, right. And so it's that cycle repeats. That's how it goes throughout history. But that's what we're trying to not have. I mean, it still might happen somewhat anyway because again, it depends on how much influence you actually have, but at the same time, that's exactly why.

John: We're here right, and you know, we talk a lot about men being the authority and taking pride in things like that. Men talk about how logical they are, and I'm not even going to get into that unless we want to, but yeah, I understand where men are coming from, certain men. But yeah, I also don't understand why they have basically turned into the women that they're so upset over. Don't get that. They've turned into radicalists, right? Well, victim mindset because that's what it was when women were doing it with the whole feminism, and it's the same thing here. Victim mindset justifying like the extreme feminists either because #killmen should not even exist, and it shouldn't exist, #killwomen either, right? But I can at least see a little bit of women's perspective. I mean, I wasn't alive back then, but you know, they couldn't go get a job, they couldn't really do anything. No, this is more recent than that. This is... Well, I'm also, but I'm talking about that, that's when they finally got out of that, and so I can see where that came out a little bit more, right?

Nicole: But right now, I can't see where men are justifying their actions besides that women now have went a little too far, right? But I don't think that's enough of an excuse to have them be as angry and radical as they are now. I think the only reason that they are this way is because men or women don't need men like they used to back then, and so men are having a harder time coming up to the standards of women.

John: I agree with that, but also, you know, to your point, like because yeah, what the suppression, the stuff that was going on that led to the rise of the third wave feminism, right, was extreme, and that's why women started to hate men during that time period. But again, out of that came hashtags like kill all men, which if you think that, you know, when you see kill all men, that doesn't inspire a lot of men to get into anger and enrage, then that's... I mean, I'm saying it, it is still extreme, right? It's like the extremity produces extremity. When a man sees #killallmen, it's okay that he gets angry. No, no, it's not, but it wasn't, it was never okay, uh, at any instance. It wasn't okay when the woman got angry and, you know, and really supported the third wave feminism and started man-hating, you know, and it wasn't okay that men responded by getting, you know, it's like, it's all like you said, it's all people that are not healed, it's all people that are not, you know, seeking any kind of spiritual or personal growth that are falling into this. But unfortunately, that's always going to be the majority of the population, and that's why we're stuck in these cycles. But I mean, obviously, we can be out here trying to help people that want to escape this to realize the reality of the situation, that they're constantly because you're stuck in the victim mindset when you're allowing the actions of other people and other people's, uh, impression of you to now control your mind, right?

Nicole: So, and I think that's the whole issue with both sides, is that, you know, you can't just take these few things that fit whatever emotion you're in because that's really the thing, is like, you know, maybe a woman has gone on some bad dates lately, and the guys have been jerks or whatever, and then, you know, she sees that, she sees somebody, you know, murdered his girlfriend or his wife, and she's like, you know what, I'm like done with men, you know, like that's just how she feels in that moment. It's just like a bunch of bad things lining up, and unless she clears that out, she's going to stay there. And that's what I feel like these men are doing exactly. They're not clearing things out. They're like, "Angry, something happened, some woman they really liked did something that upset him," and then he was like went down this wormhole on the internet and now is fueled with all this like anti-women or like I hate women things, but he's never like clearing that out. He's just going on that same emotion and actually building on it. And I think, like you said, it's people need to realize that you can't just base everything off of the way that people are acting or the things that you even see on the internet. It has to come from you wanting to be the best version of yourself, you understanding like even if you're not religious, most people are spiritual in some degree, that you need to come from a place of love and compassion and empathy. And you know, from the point that they're in, that's going to take time. They're not just going to wake up the next day and be like, "I love everybody," but if you actively work towards that, and the first thing that they should probably do is get a different perspective shift, like I mentioned, like put yourself in a woman's shoes. Pretend you're a woman, yeah, only in the instance that you go on a date with somebody, yeah, and he starts acting a little weird, and you're maybe not that interested in him, and so you're like, "Hey, I'm sorry, like thank you for dinner, whatever, but I'm not really interested," and that person proceeds to put you in situations where you feel unsafe, right? Yeah, how would that make you feel? And like the same with women, though, right? Like imagine that you're a man, and you've went up to 50 people while you were out, and they all said no or ignored you or like ew or whatever, yeah, or like something, like put yourself in issues, like understand what it takes to even go up to somebody you don't know and have a conversation, let alone tell them, "Oh hey, I find you attractive," right? Like, that is where both sides need to start because I feel like that is where, you know, they'll really about start to be like, "Okay, that is empathy, that's what empathy is called," right? So, it's like, but what happens though is you've got again the algorithm, and you've got the vultures which are feeding off of it, right? Because those people, they know that they're in a place where it's like, it's outrage, right? Can I think of a headline, can I find some news article in order to outrage you more, right? To because I'm going to like you want to go problem, that's greed, that's it. It is, it is going against their moral compass to make money. They make up facts, right? I know most of these facts out here that a lot of guys in our comment section are repeating, I know they're made up by some person, MH, who said, "If I make up this fact, right, I can create more outrage, which will get me more views, which will get me more people," and so that's the problem. That's what we have to trust in those people, and that's like, you know, we don't make anything from this. Eventually, it would be nice to at least like the more people watch it, right, we make something, but we're not ever, we talk about this a lot too, like we're never going to like promote something to make money that we didn't like believe in or, you know, anything that goes against who we are because the whole reason we started this is because we feel.

John: Like we're very two real people, exactly. Yeah, and we're out here telling you guys about what we go through and what we've learned so that you can kind of get a feeling that we're very real people. Yeah, and that we've been through our own stuff to learn a lot of this. And that if you learn some of this stuff, it'll help you in the long run. But yeah, it's... I think people, and especially now with the AI stuff, it's very hard to trust.

Nicole: Things that you see on the internet, yeah. And what you can do as an individual is to use your mind, your brain, your smarts, well, to evaluate what you're watching and be like, "Is this real?" Because at this point, everybody should be like, "Is what I'm watching real?" No matter how real it looks, it could be.

John: Right, exactly. Like, does this seem logical? Like, does this make sense? And like, if someone does spew out some facts, where can I find this? Where can I also see what you're talking about?

Nicole: Well, and it's also like, there's also this, do you even need to, you know, look? If I listen to, I don't know, like really bad derogatory rap music, right, glorifying selling drugs and shooting people, whatever, you know, I mean, am I going to be influenced by that if that's what I listen to? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, if I watch television shows about serial killers all the time, am I going to be afraid that someone... Am I going to be influenced? You see what I'm saying? It's like, you have to choose. But women watch those so that they can pick up on the... If you're obsessed about it, then you're going to just assume that you're going to be afraid. But my point is, is that it's not just it. It's a matter of tuning out of the stuff that you don't want to influence you. Like, so if you have stuff that's negative on your feed, don't follow the negative, you know what I mean? No matter how appealing it is. You don't even need to know the facts of this information. Why do you need to know negative information? I don't even want to know this stuff. Like, it's not necessary. Right, just surround yourself with positive people, with positive influence, positive... And you're going to have a positive... That includes on the Internet.

John: It's what you just said is so true. And I think that actually might be the first step for a lot of these men and women, is you have to clean up what you're being influenced by. And just like you said, like the people you're around influence you, the things that you're watching influence you. I think that's a good place for people to start because even if you are in therapy or something like that, a lot of times your therapist will tell you like, unfollow people who make you feel negative or make you feel depressed or like bring you down. And I agree that that, and even if you're on TikTok or something where it's like randomized algorithm, swipe past it. Like the second you start watching and you're like, this kind of gives me an icky feeling, swipe past. Or you can do the thing where it's like, I don't want to see stuff like that again.

Nicole: Well, yeah, that's good, like the controls. Which I forget that I can do that because it's like, I don't want to see stuff like that. It's like, you know... See, and I want to go back to like the empathy that we were talking about, right? 'Cause I'm actually reading this book, it's about how our souls are infinite, and you know, we go into many lives and lived many lives. But one thing that he was talking about in the book was that empathy and compassion, right, they're very similar, but you can have compassion without empathy.

John: Yes, yes, yeah. And I think that that's actually where you first clean up your stuff, uh-huh, get rid of the negative and start with compassion. Right, because even if you've been wronged by a man or woman or whatever, and you have actual experiences that hurt you, right, you can have compassion, right, for the situation, for the men and women out there who aren't doing these things that do exist. And then that will grow into empathy once you get there. But start with compassion. Like, realize, and what he said in the book too, that I think, you know, makes a lot of freaking sense to me, at least, is imagine every person as a kid because that's where we all started. Imagine them as a little four-year-old who, you know, just is playing with some toys and living their life, right? Because everybody started that way, even the serial killers. So, yeah, like everybody started out the same way, and things might have happened, but there is a wounded child in every single person. Like, even if you had a good childhood, something, some outside factors could have wounded. But a lot of people struggle with their life, and certain things were... And we all have some trauma that has impacted us from when we were these little four-year-olds who were happy with everything, right? So if you look at the person that you're upset with and you realize that, you know, they were once a child, and yeah, you know, they got hurt, and instead of learning how to sort through all that stuff, they're spewing it all over everybody, and they seem like...

Nicole: They're stuck in this cycle. You can... You will have some compassion for them, yeah, and some sort of way you can find a way to have compassion for the person. And at the end of the day, again, like, I'm reading this book, and I enjoy it because I feel like it does help perpetuate the love that we should have for everybody. At the end of the day, we're all human, right? We all have that in common. Right, and if you are more spiritual, he would go on to say that we're all part of the collective consciousness or the oneness, right? Like, we all stem from that, right? And when you think about it that way, you are able to empathize with the person that you're upset with or the people you're upset with, right? And you can even look back in your own life and be like, "Oh, this bad thing happened to me, and I could have stayed on this path and became angry like this person, right? But I chose to do this, and now I'm here, but they're kind of... They got stuck. They chose that path, right?" But that doesn't mean that you can't choose another path to get off of that angry path that you're on. And I think that's what this whole episode, I guess, has turned into, is how to get off of that path, how to be a better person, and how to treat people better, even if you don't agree with them or even if they've hurt you. Yeah, 'cause everyone's fighting a battle that you know nothing about. Everyone has a struggle that you know nothing about. And it's also just a matter of the perspective shift. Like, like you're saying, I mean, you can view people as a child, but... And you could be in that same exact situation, but, you know, I think that... And it's both men and women, right? It's... You know, and it's definitely both. And there's also this thing where, you know, there's... Well, like there's different ways of talking about this, but a self-fulfilling prophecy or the reticular activation system where...

John: You see a red car or you buy a red car, now you see red cars everywhere. This is essentially how your brain works. What you believe, you will confirm in your reality. So, because you're looking, even if you're not consciously looking for it, you will pay more attention to that. Like you said with the red car thing, it's like you don't have to have it on the top of your mind, but because you feel that way and because it's something you're struggling with at that moment, you will naturally gravitate towards that topic or subject.

Nicole: And so, you have the ability to create your own hell right on Earth. Because if you, as a man, think women are horrible and they do all these things, you will see that everywhere. And when you interact with women, they will be like that. The same thing as a woman, if you think these things about men, negative things, you're going to find all those men, and you're going to see those. It can go even further depending on how bad you are.

John: Right, like, I think that you might not even see women or men being bad, but you'll assume it. You'll twist the situation into something that it's totally not, and you'll just assume this horrible thing, even though you didn't even see it actually happen. But because you're so far in that, you're actually even twisting reality to fit your agenda. At that point, you're going to get exactly what you want out of life. It's exactly what you want. You create your own reality, your own prison, and for you, it'll be your own personal hell, your own personal reality where everything that you think is true will be true in that reality.

Nicole: It is powerful, and that's true. It's almost like the law of attraction or manifestation. There's some truth to it in the sense that that's what you want to see. That's why it starts inside you. And I know we've done a lot of episodes where, especially talking about men, that it has to start inside of you. You have to work on yourself first. It's cliche, everybody says that sort of stuff, but it really is the key to making any of your relationships work.

John: Yeah, like, you know, you saw me. Well, you didn't even see how I used to be before you, but I personally too was like a very reactive, typical emotional woman sort of thing. Like, you know, I could be mean, and you didn't really see that side of me. You helped inspire me to be better and make me want to be better. Then I already had done a lot of work, I felt like, and then you came along, and it's just going up from here. But like, I would sometimes get really frustrated with my mom, even like that you would see. But I feel like all of the things that I've learned, and we've learned together, that that doesn't even happen as much as it did before.

Nicole: And it's so like, you can get there, and a lot of people get overwhelmed, and they're like, "Oh, that's going to be so much work, and I can't do that." But the peace that you feel, right within yourself, you transmit that to everybody around you and everything around you. And then people will gravitate towards you rather than be repelled by you when you have that anger and you have that hostility inside of you, and resentment or bitterness or whatever you have. What you attract, right?

John: Yeah, and it's like, and you can even co-create the reality. Because it's like, part of the reason why you transformed in that way was partially because I believe that you're not a mean person. I believed, I reinforced that viewpoint so many times because my view of you was different than maybe what your own view of you was at some point, and that influenced it. Just like your view of me influences me. And so, it's also the same thing. If you treat people as if they are bad, they will become bad, right? Because that's what they're going to live up to your expectation.

Nicole: Right, and so, but the opposite is true, which is what you're just saying. It stems from a lot of things, though. Like, I want to go back to the thing with my mom because it stemmed from my perspective growing up. But then when I realized that she was doing the best that she could, and she didn't even necessarily do anything horrible, but it's just like when I became enlightened enough in my own mind and wisdom and knowledge and whatever, I could look back and be like, she did the best that she could because she, you know, grew up this way. And again, it kind of goes back to looking at somebody at four years old. What she went through at four years old, I know, was worse than what I went through at four years old. And now I'm trying to be better for our daughter. And so, it's like, she did the best that she could, and now I have to do the best I can. And so, I apologized to her for treating her that way when I was more frustrated with her.

John: You can get there. It's all about how you view it. And again, that's why I think like these men who are so upset and these women who are so upset, we need to change their perspective in some way. I mean, I know we can't change people, but I'm just saying by talking about all of this, hopefully, they can realize that if you reframe a lot of the stuff that's going on, everyone will have more compassion for each other, and it'll bring them closer together, which is what they want at their core. Under all that hate on either side, they want to find a man or woman that they can spend the rest of their life with. And sometimes, it is better to be willfully ignorant, right? In the sense that, just like we said, if you believe bad about people, if you're a man, you believe bad about women; if you're a woman, you believe bad about men, you're going to find that. If you believe good to a point of naivety, even right where you're willfully ignorant about the bad, you're just overlooking it. You're not going to see it. You're just going to have a good view, then you're going to find it. You know what I mean?

Nicole: And sometimes, just the act of that alone can form, can change. You know, it's a powerful thing that you can try in any kind of discussion when you're with someone who is trying to be negative. Reframe everything they're saying in a positive light, and then pretty soon, watch what happens. They start being positive because with all the stuff that they're even if they're trying to be negative and trying to insult you or call you names, just reframe it as compliments to you and reframe all that stuff. And you would actually reshape the whole thing. But that's what you have to do. You have to view the world from a more positive viewpoint. And then it will conform itself to that viewpoint. But if you're constantly thinking negative and constantly thinking about how bad women are, constantly thinking how bad men are, you're not going to get out of the trap. So, going back to the beginning.

John: If I were a man and saw women posting this, what I would do is be like, "Those are obviously women I don't want to date, but I know there are women out there who would not act this way, who do not think this way." Exactly. And I know they exist, and I know that I'll end up with that person because that's what I want.

Nicole: Yeah, and like you said, that's a very realistic way to look at it rather than being like, "All women are like this." And the same with women. If you see men complaining in the comments or saying some stuff that you don't agree with, all you have to do is be like, "I will not be with a man like that. That is not the person I want to spend the rest of my life with." And you move on. And like you said, you swipe past that. You don't even have to leave a comment. That's not going to do anything, especially those people who want you to engage and be pulled in.

John: Exactly. You just keep scrolling. Like, just know that, okay, I don't want to be with someone like that. And without getting into a whole other topic, that's what people should be doing. Because we've talked about this, that sometimes women don't like to go on dates because they're like, "Oh, I have to tell him my whole life story over, and I hate doing that." But the thing is, if you view dating, or even scrolling online, as, "Okay, I'm going to learn something. I'm learning like, okay, if a guy thinks like this, he's probably not the guy for me, so I would not go on a date with somebody who said something like that," or vice versa. That way, you're learning from this experience. And if you go on dates, you should be learning from those experiences what you like and what you don't like. And you don't have to be mean about that. Like I said, you don't have to leave a comment on a video. You don't have to tell a guy, "F you, this was the worst date of my life." You could just be like, "Hey, I don't think it's going to work out." And that's how you should react. But you should be learning from all this stuff, right? Instead of trying to shame people into being what you want, realize that they're not who you want, they're not on your level, they're not what you're looking for. Wish them the best and move on with your life.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. So again, same with the bear and the man thing. You don't have to engage in that conversation because, when you engage in those sorts of conversations, the man in the bear thing, the woman liking serial killer thing, you are on the same level as someone commenting that, in my mind. Like guys being like, "Look, women like hot guys. They don't care." I'm like, you look just as bad as the women reposting this, in my mind, because you're perpetuating it. Like now, women are going to do it to spite you. You're reinforcing that reality. If it's a reality that you don't like, don't reinforce the reality.

John: Exactly. Ignore it. It doesn't have to involve you; it doesn't even have to affect you. That's what people don't understand, and a lot of people, especially on the internet, don't understand because they want to leave their comments and be like, you know, put their two cents in, which is fine. But it's like, sometimes it's best to just scroll on. Any dog trainer will tell you, ignore negative behavior and reinforce positive behavior. Don't pay attention to the negative behavior; reinforce our podcast.

Nicole: Right, that's right. But yeah, okay, so, the topic for this podcast, the topic for today, we have to go a different day. But yeah, that kind of, you kind of wanted to do one about social media, so we kind of did. So, you know, it's pretty, that's kind of more, yeah, it's like society too, I think, you know. 'Cause it is a lot of social media that we talked about, but it's also like the things that you hear from your girlfriends or something, or other guys. Like, you can't take on other people's horror stories, right? Or like you said, you'll just end up attracting that. So like, even if I go to hang out with my friends, and they're like, "Oh, this guy, he did this and yada yada," and I'm like, internalize that, right? And I'm like, "Oh, like what if that happens to me?" Then, like you said, I'm more likely to attract that towards me because now I'm also so afraid of this that I might start acting differently, right? And now, that one thing that didn't even happen to me, it happened to someone else, has taken over my whole life as well. And here's the thing about it, I'll really put the nail in this coffin, which is, look, what we're describing is bigotry. And racism is just a form of bigotry, just like sexism is. Bigotry means that you discriminate and judge an entire group of people based on their affiliation. That's what bigotry is. So, in this case, if people disagree with it, it's exactly the same as racism, in the sense that if you hear a bunch of negative things about someone's race and then you make a bunch of assumptions about that race of people, and any person that belongs to that race of people, based on the color of their skin or whatever, you're doing the exact same thing when it comes to men and women. But you're thinking that's okay. So if you can be a man-hater or you can be a woman-hater and act and spew things and say, "All men are, all women are," then you are just as capable, and you're probably just hiding your racism because it's exactly the same thing. Because it's exactly the same way you get there is from the exact same thing because it's all just a form of bigotry. That's all that it is.

Nicole: Right. So, which, and we shouldn't be judging anybody because, like you said, everybody's going through something. Everybody is a human being, no matter what they look like, no matter what. They're a human being. They have feelings. They have a right to live and, you know, think how they want to think, right? If, as long as they're not physically hurting you or emotionally hurting you or abusing you in any way, then like, you have a better appreciation for people, and you're less judgmental, right? And you're more open, and you're more loving, and you're able to have that compassion and empathy a lot easier when you view people that way.

John: Yeah, and you're right. Like, we shouldn't be grouping people together that way, ever. Like, with anything, it's just not fair to anybody to ever be grouped in because of someone else's doing something. Because I'm sure the women watching this are like, "I don't want to be grouped in with women that are, you know, sexually fantasizing over a murderer. I would never do that." And then men are like, "I don't want to be grouped in with a bear because I would never treat women that way." So it's like, just, that's why people need to think about another person's perspective. And like, whatever way that works for you to really put yourself in somebody's shoes or, you know, understand where.

John: Somebody's coming from people need to do that more.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know what the topic of this would officially be called because it went a lot of places, but yeah, we could figure it out. But that was a lot.

John: Yeah, we could just call it the episode where John had to pee. That's the Jamaica level. Alright, but yeah, you have the yeah so segment. So last week, after my birthday, after I—

Nicole: On your birthday.

John: Well, yeah, after the episode of my birthday, I decided that I needed to just, I don't know, we got into a discussion, and I was very adamant about my point. This just—

Nicole: A random discussion. Like, it wasn't a relationship discussion.

John: No, yeah, it was just a random type of a factual thing. But anyway, the point is not the discussion or the context of it or what it was about, but the point is that I slipped right into talking in an unloving way, and it was just, it was not good.

Nicole: It wasn't like you were screaming and yelling. You were just talking in an unloving way, trying to make—

John: Well, it was like I was giving off energy, even though I wasn't yelling, that was good and things like that. You were visibly upset, and we were in public too, so like people could sense that. Again, you weren't yelling, but people could sense you were upset. And then the way that you were talking, like you were upset about something else but taking it out on me.

Nicole: Yeah, like not in a way where you were saying mean things towards me, but you were upset about the discussion but treating me differently because of the discussion and because of how you felt about it.

John: Yeah, and yeah, it was. So I apologize for that. That was my bad, my mistake. But I mean, I do feel like I got a better grasp on why I can slip into that and to let that go. And I guess the thing that really came out of it for me is, it's like, and I think this is just useful for anyone, is that I realized on the drive back, after I came to my senses and apologized, was that there, once I go down that road, there's no win condition for me. Right? Because if I'm having an argument with you, you know, and I start acting in a way that is not loving, it's negative, then even if I convince you, even if you're like, "Oh, you're right," I've already done such a—I've already made it so that there's no win condition there. Right? So it's like going down that path is, you've done the wrong thing to, so nobody in the situation can be like, "Well, I did the right thing," because nobody did the right thing.

Nicole: Right, exactly. So it's like, and it just makes it, it doesn't even matter what happened. And that's the other thing that I came to the conclusion of. It's like, look, as soon as you decide to fight fire with fire—

John: Right, don't use my quote.

Nicole: Then everybody's on fire is the other half of the quote.

John: Okay, fine, that's my quote. If you sort of forgo your right to your perceived injustice, no matter how bad, you know, I mean, so you've already gotten your justice in the way you've chosen to behave. So you're no longer anything. So now you can no longer claim any kind of harm or wrong. Now you have to dismiss whatever upset you in the first place. And I mean, well, now you're part of someone else too. So it's just like an endless loop, right? Unless somebody stops it.

Nicole: Right. And there's a quote, was it Seneca or Marcus Aurelius? I thought you were about to be like, "There was a quote if you fight fire with fire, everyone's on fire." There is one that's like, "How much more grievous are the consequences of your anger than the causes of them?"

John: Right. So it's some, it's a paraphrase, but essentially, it means that whatever caused you to get upset, the result of you getting upset is way worse than what caused you to get upset. So, you know, so pay attention. But again, I don't want to paint it into like a too much of an overblown picture. It's not like we were screaming and yelling, and there was all kinds of— I was just, I was just being unloving in the way that I was talking, in a more harsh tone, I would say, and loud. Right? So yeah, it wasn't very loving, which is, you know, not good.

Nicole: Right, which, you know, like I said, I apologize, and it was. But yeah, and I was like, "I can't believe I did that." Like, it's, I can't believe that I—

John: So, well, especially because you said too that you've dealt with instances in the past where you're on, you were on my side of the situation.

Nicole: Exactly. So I was like, "Wow, this is crazy." Like, how, you know, I've never been on this side of it, you know what I mean? So, but um, but yeah, but I think those things help, like to have a framework and a guide. And part of it does stem from, like you were saying, which is that, uh, in some previous circumstances I've been in my life, I've had to come out strong, to say the least, right? To really defend myself, even when there's, you know, so when there's not even an enemy to defend against, sometimes I can go into the ready for battle. Ready for battle, right? So it's like, yeah, like, what am I even battling about? Like, what am I even talking about that I'm, you know, so yeah. So but I developed some frameworks, I think, from that, that help me. Like I said, and the biggest one is just like, hey, if I go down this road, there's no win for this road. Like, so don't—

Nicole: That ties into what we talked about today too, though, is like, no matter how someone else is reacting, you always have a choice in how you're reacting and how you view things. No matter how someone else views something, you can always view it in a different light and in a different perspective, and a more beneficial perspective.

John: Right, exactly. So yeah, so yeah, go, I, yeah, gotta have something to talk about. Alright, well, that's it. Leave us a review on iTunes.

Nicole: Yeah, give us some positive reinforcements, so we can rise above the negativity. A lady on YouTube said she watched a lot of our episodes. She just found us about a week or so ago and she watched like all of our episodes and some of them twice. We appreciate her so much. I don't know your screen name off the top of my head, but you know who you are.

John: Yeah, so yeah, be like her and watch all of our episodes, and we'll shout you out and appreciate you so much.