Nicole [00:00:00]: Avoidant people do. Like living alone.

John [00:00:02]: No one can, whatever, disappoint me.

Nicole [00:00:03]: Right? Yeah, exactly. It's all about. If I mess up, it's on me. I was good before you came along. When I was single and living on my own. And then when you showed up. Yeah, exactly.

John [00:00:14]: Or even having a child. Right. Because you can't predict that behavior. It's a lot of all or nothing. I'm the most loved. This is great. This relationship's awesome. This is the most horrible relationship ever. Everybody hates me. It flips between those beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. And yeah, today we're going to be talking about avoidance. People who are on the. What is it?

Nicole [00:01:00]: Avoidant Attachment.

John [00:01:01]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:01:02]: That's one of the. Is it attachment theory or attachment types? Like, what is the official.

John [00:01:08]: I mean, I think it's like attachment theory. Okay.

Nicole [00:01:11]: Yeah. Because if you don't know, there's anxious. Avoidant. Anxious. Avoidant.

John [00:01:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:18]: Secure.

John [00:01:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:19]: I think that's the only four, Right?

John [00:01:20]: I think that's pretty much. There's kind of like a spectrum. They're. They're like, you know, I mean, they. The thing about these things, too, is I think it's worth saying that all of these things are models, right. So they're not the actual reality. When we label someone or label something, sometimes people take that too seriously. It's just like, this is a way to model things so we can talk about it, so that we can deal with these common behavioral patterns so you

Nicole [00:01:50]: can understand it, not so it can, like, define you. Right, Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. A lot of people think that, like, oh, this is just how I am or whatever. Like. Cause I got this. This matches up. This is what I am. But really it should be like, oh, this is like the tendencies that I have, and it falls under this. And so I don't want to be that. I want to go towards secure. So I need to work on. Not of using these avoidant behaviors and how to, you know, gravitate more towards secure behaviors instead. So it's like, it's supposed to show you, like, what's going on, but it's not supposed to be the end result, if that makes sense.

John [00:02:33]: Exactly. And so just before we get into the avoidant part, let's talk about. Let's re. Like, give a quick summary of what, what the whole thing is of attachment style. So it's like attachment styles are basically, they're formed a lot of times when you're a child, how you relate to your parents. Right? And so, so that, that really defines your model for relationships growing up. So, you know, for example, if, when you're a child, when you were crying, your parents practiced the Spock method of that, that advice at a certain time of just letting you cry it out, then that's going to have a certain effect in the way that you view relationships. That, okay, when I need help, people are not there for me. I have to fend for myself. I can't rely on people. If you're a child and every time that you were upset you got coddled, then it's going to create a different set of expectations in relationships and how you deal with relationships. And then there's intermittent where it's like, sometimes your parents care, sometimes they don't care. You know, a lot of times you see that in, in heavy drug use, like families, where there's mental disorders or drug use, and it's, it's very, I can't rely on people. Right. And so these end up evolving into as adult, different, different conditions, which is anxious, which is when you are, you, you, you are kind of needy, you're trying to hold on to a partner, you're afraid they're always going to leave you. You could say abandonment issues. That, that creates that anxious attachment. You're afraid they're going to cheat on you all the time. Right? That's. Whereas the avoidant is you. You kind of check out. You shut down, you avoid the conflict, you avoid any situations where you'd have to put out your emotions and then you could get rejected because you, you feel like people are not going to be there for you. Right. And then you've got stable, which is, is the, is where you really want to be, where you are. It's not stable. Secure. Right. Secure attachment where you, you have a healthy relationship with. You're not anxious, you're not avoidant. You're. You're, you're in the middle. You, you, you trust people. You're able to have healthy relationships. You know that it's give and take. You know that sometimes you're going to be disappointed, but you can manage your emotions. It doesn't make you freak out. You're not avoiding the situations. And so, yeah, so that's kind of the summary. Did I miss anything?

Nicole [00:05:11]: No, I think it's good. I think that we do form one in childhood for sure. And that I think is typically our like, main one. But I will say I also believe that you can develop a different one or another one.

John [00:05:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:27]: From like traumatic experiences. For sure. In your most important relationships as an adult.

John [00:05:33]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:05:35]: Because when you're describing it, I'm like, I have always leaned more towards, towards avoidant.

John [00:05:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:43]: But there have been some instances where I've been anxious avoidant because there is still that like avoidant tendency still. But then there's also times where I'm anxious. But this is obviously about more of the avoidance stuff. And that is primarily where I was at attachment wise. I would like to think that I'm going more towards the secure.

John [00:06:05]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:06:06]: Attachment. Now I'm not perfect. I still, you know, have moments where my initial instinct is some of the, the old ways, but it's definitely not how it used to be. And I have you to thank for a lot of that, honestly. But yeah, we talked a little bit in one of the episodes about how avoidant attachment is typically more masculine and anxious is typically more feminine. But it does, it is circumstantial. Right. Like you said. So.

John [00:06:37]: And an anxious avoidant is the, is the worst combination because it's because you're a man. Don't go away from me. Don't leave me. But get away. You're too close. Yeah. Like you're afraid of, of commitment. You're afraid of being too intimate with someone close, but you're also scared of losing them.

Nicole [00:06:57]: Right.

John [00:06:58]: And you. That's the, that's the word. We're not going to talk about that. I mean, some of it leaks in with, with avoidant, but.

Nicole [00:07:03]: Right.

John [00:07:04]: But avoidant is primarily what we're going to discuss today.

Nicole [00:07:07]: It does kind of go in a way. Like people are avoidant because they do care.

John [00:07:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:14]: But they're afraid, like you said, like they're afraid that letting someone in. Because you're right. At a young age they felt like no one's really safe. Like the people closest to me don't feel safe. So nobody's safe. Right. And so their fear a lot of the time in relationships is when someone, when they start getting too deep into it.

John [00:07:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:44]: The risk of that person disappointing them and letting them down.

John [00:07:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:49]: Gets more and more terrifying to them. Right. So they self sabotage it before anything could happen because they're, they're assumed that it's gonna happen. Like they don't think it's not gonna happen. It's a win.

John [00:08:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:01]: It's not like exactly. It's not if it's a win.

John [00:08:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:04]: And so they will pick on things that aren't really a big deal.

John [00:08:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:11]: They will. Which I've done. They will use any sort of disagreement to mentally be like, oh, maybe this isn't the right person for me. Like, we shouldn't be arguing about this. Or like any sort of disagreement kind of like turns off their, like, I don't want to say love because it's not turned off, but it's like they're mentally preparing themselves to leave. So at any disagreement they're like, oh, this, this isn't right.

John [00:08:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:44]: And then like, I mean, I feel like those are maybe the main things, but really it's ultimately a self sabotaging behavior. Like a self sabotaging behavior will come out. They'll be like, yeah, you know, maybe this isn't right. Or like, you know, I'm not. A lot of times too, they will make it not your problem. Because I do think deep down we know it's our problem.

John [00:09:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:10]: And we don't want to put that on someone else. But it's also taking the cowardly way of doing that by being like, it's not you, it's me.

John [00:09:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:19]: Which is true. Like, they're not wrong. But you don't realize when you're in it until you're like analyzing your own avoidant behaviors that no one will be perfect.

John [00:09:33]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:34]: So they do end up self sabotaging.

John [00:09:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:39]: And the only way they really can't do that is if they have a secure partner that is like, no, like having disagreements is a normal thing.

John [00:09:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:50]: And like, just because we're going through this doesn't mean that our relationship is broken or ruined or, you know, any of those things. Like, it's very hard for an avoidant and an anxious person to.

John [00:10:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:04]: Work things out. Because someone has to be secure. Like someone has to be secure or close enough.

John [00:10:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:11]: That they can ground the avoidant person. Because obviously avoidant, they're going to try to run away. They're going to try to self sabotage. Like I said, they're going to try to shut down and kind of like go numb or detached.

John [00:10:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:28]: Because that's the protection mechanism. Right. Like detachment essentially is an avoidance protection mechanism.

John [00:10:36]: And that's going to trigger the hell out of the anxious person.

Nicole [00:10:39]: Oh, yeah.

John [00:10:39]: Because that's. The anxious person is afraid of being abandoned. And when, when the avoidant person's running away, then the anxious person is holding on tighter.

Nicole [00:10:50]: Right.

John [00:10:50]: Which is going to make the avoidant person feel trapped and suffocated. Exactly. And then it creates that cycle. So that's why you have to have someone, hopefully, with a secure attachment or. I mean that, like, you should always. It's worth knowing what you and your partner are to go through. There's a book called.

Nicole [00:11:10]: I think it's Attachment Theory.

John [00:11:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:12]: I think that it's, it has the magnets.

John [00:11:14]: Yeah, it's worth knowing that so you can know how to deal with and work through. Because when you understand it, then you can. Or know it and find out, or if you're secure, then you, you know. Okay, why is this person acting this way?

Nicole [00:11:26]: Yeah, right.

John [00:11:27]: But, yeah, so, so the avoidant. And it's, it's interesting because some of the things, you know, like, like, like I said, or like you said, you, you've, you've worked through a lot of it. You're not as avoidant. But some of the things that you would say to me sometimes would be like, it's like you're preparing for the end. Or you'd be like, yeah, I'd rather just, you know, I'd rather it just fall apart, like, just end. Than you cheat on me. And it's like, because you're preparing for that thing and you'd ask me the question all the time is like, are you like, you know, you would tell me if you, if you were going to cheat on me and not just cheat on you would just. I'd rather you just tell me that you don't like me anymore.

Nicole [00:12:05]: Yeah.

John [00:12:06]: And it's like, it's a very avoidant thing because it's important. Preparing for the, you know, like, I, I trying to think of the words that you said. But yeah, many times you've, you had said things like, I'd rather just, just have it, you know, like, like, just

Nicole [00:12:21]: be like, I hate you. Like, I'd rather you, like, look at me and be like, I hate you. I never loved you.

John [00:12:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:26]: Then, like, believe in you and then you betray me.

John [00:12:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:31]: Because, like, that's the underlying thing for the avoidant as well, too. Like, anxious people are afraid of abandonment, but at the same time, like, an avoidant person is afraid of being betrayed. They're afraid of putting their trust in you and you break that because they have never really trusted anyone. And in some ways.

John [00:12:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:49]: That makes you not trust yourself.

John [00:12:51]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:52]: And so. Because if you don't trust anyone.

John [00:12:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:55]: Then you don't really trust yourself. Like, if you can't give that to other people.

John [00:13:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:00]: Like, and I'm not saying you have to trust every single person.

John [00:13:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:03]: But if there's no one else that you can trust and you're like, it's just me, like, I don't even believe that you can really trust yourself. And I've been there, like, when I have felt like I've never really could trust anybody or like, I'm too afraid to put my trust in other people. If I'm being honest, that's what it really is, then how can I trust myself?

John [00:13:23]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:13:24]: And so I'd rather air out all my. All my avoidance stuff because I think this is a big deal.

John [00:13:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:30]: And I think that, you know, I hope men watching this. I think really what I want to do is just lay it all out here, because men typically do suffer with this.

John [00:13:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:41]: And it's so much more detrimental to your relationship if you cannot, like, reflect on your avoidant behaviors, if that's your attachment theory as a man, and fix this problem. Because a woman cannot do it. Like, and especially if she's anxious, like you said, she's just gonna trigger that, and then that's gonna make you wanna run away more or break up more or, like. Like, you'll convince yourself, yeah, this isn't for me. Like, I'm. I don't. Like, it's too much. But that's also your problem. Like, it's too much because of your underlying things that you have going on.

John [00:14:17]: And that's where the whole thing is. Because we've talked about this before in the podcast about women being needy. And it's like. And I've. I've said, no, you. Not, you know, the word needy. But to be dependent, to want the man's attention, to, like, that's a feminine trait. It's good. But if you're avoidant as a man, then that.

Nicole [00:14:37]: Then you hate it.

John [00:14:37]: Then you're like, stop being so needy.

Nicole [00:14:39]: Right.

John [00:14:39]: It's like. But what's happening is you're triggering that response where it's coming across with that energy because, hey, you're avoiding and shutting down. And. And so this other person in their relationship is now trying to hold on tight and trying to get reassurance from you. Because that's the thing is, you know, when you're avoidant, you're not giving the other person reassurance because they need to know, like, again, that's where secure attachment comes from, that their relationship is solid, that people can make mistakes and that's okay. They can be forgiven. That the relationship. There's gonna be ups and downs, but you're gonna Be stable. Like, if you make one mistake, I'm not gonna stop loving you and not gonna abandon you. You know what I'm saying? And so.

Nicole [00:15:25]: Or yeah, they can't give that because they don't feel secure in the relationship. Like, they don't feel secure in any relationship.

John [00:15:31]: Right?

Nicole [00:15:32]: Because like you said, I still asked you those questions. I still might even ask you those questions from time to time. But because, like, not. I don't want to say that I don't feel secure in our relationship. Like I do, but it's like ultimately avoidant people when they get in any relationship, no matter how good it is, I mean, you're the best man in the entire world, in my opinion, and I still ask you those questions. So that's why I want to lay all this out here. Because I think a lot of men and a lot, a lot of avoidant people. I was like this until I met you, right? I was like, oh, well, the right person. This won't happen. And, oh, well, I can find somebody that won't trigger these things in me or won't make me want to run away or whatever. Like, whatever fantasy thing that people think in their head. Like, it's just because they think that this is just not the right person. Right. But. And they can find the right person or the right situation.

John [00:16:27]: Right?

Nicole [00:16:27]: But when I found the right person, yeah. And the right situation, and I was still doing it, you know, from time to time, that's when I really realized that, like, this is a me problem. Like, I. I always kind of knew, but I didn't know the extent. Extent of what I was doing to my own life and how that was even self sabotaging at a lower level. Like, not as, like, blatant, Right?

John [00:16:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:56]: Right. So, like, I think that is very important. And again, it's super important for men because as a woman, even if I was anxious and you were avoidant, I don't feel like I could guide you right through figuring all this out or even if I. You were avoidant and I was secure.

John [00:17:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:21]: As a woman and you're the man and the leader of our relationship and our household. I don't feel like even if I was the most secure person.

John [00:17:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:33]: That I could guide you to understand what I'm saying.

John [00:17:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:37]: So. So. And you helped me a lot and it worked with us because you were the secure one and you're the man. And you, you did help me. Like, when I would literally run away from you in the beginning, you would follow me and be like, no, we need to talk about this. And I hated that.

John [00:17:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:51]: Like, I hated it and I still resisted it.

John [00:17:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:53]: But now I don't do that at all.

John [00:17:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:56]: Even now you've been kind of walking away from me at times, and I'm like, what? Like, you taught me not to do this. So it's hard.

John [00:18:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:05]: And it's the same sort of thing when you have to, like, grow through something that has defined your whole life. Like our attachment theories, like you said, they start really young and they have kind of defined our whole lives.

John [00:18:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:19]: But at the end of the day, everyone that has Anxious. Avoidant. Anxious. Avoidant. Should be working towards a secure, you know, attachment to their partner and people they have relationships with. But I just feel like it is important to talk about the avoidant specifically because I feel like the anxious does, like, continuously try to repair, even if they're not doing it again in their own way. It's still not correct. It's still not secure. But I do, like. I do feel like they attempt more repair with their partner. Whereas Avoidant, they're having this, like, internal monologue. And a lot of times they're not even expressing any of this to their partner. And then they've already convinced themselves because they're living from a place of no, they're gonna let me down anyway. Or, like, I can't trust anyone. And, you know, or this doesn't feel right. It's not supposed to feel like this. But they don't know, you know, so they're living in their own mind. A lot of the time they're not communicating as much because they're avoidant. They avoid the conversations. And so then they've already made a decision that they've kind of solidified in their own mind.

John [00:19:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:32]: But it's not the reality. It's all coming from these stories that we've been telling ourselves.

John [00:19:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:40]: From the very beginning.

John [00:19:41]: Right. And it's self fulfilled. They're. They're trying to prove themselves. Right. They're. They're trying to prove that. Oh, see, this is. I knew that. That they didn't love me.

Nicole [00:19:51]: Right.

John [00:19:51]: And this proves it. So they're looking for evidence to support that so that they can get out of there and not get hurt.

Nicole [00:19:58]: Right.

John [00:19:59]: And it's like, no, the reality is, life is in any relationship, you have to put your full self into it, and you could still get hurt because you can't ever protect yourself from it. So it's like, I'm going to hurt myself before someone else hurts me.

Nicole [00:20:12]: Right.

John [00:20:13]: I'M going to blow this up. Exactly.

Nicole [00:20:15]: Like, I'm going to hurt me. I'm going to ruin my life. So. So someone else can't.

John [00:20:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:19]: That's essentially what it is.

John [00:20:21]: But it's like the self sabotaging comes when you're trying to prove that they don't love you. And by doing that, you end up creating the circumstances that you're looking for because you're, like, always scared they're gonna cheat on you, or you're scared that they're gonna. You know, they don't. They don't care about your emotions or feelings. And then it's like you're creating such distance that you. You can sometimes make that happen. And they're like, oh, see, I. I knew it. It's like, well, or you push them away so hard that when they actually leave, you might even say something like, get out of here. I don't want to see you again. And then when they walk out the door, you're like, I can't believe you actually walked out the door. I can't believe that. And it's like, well, you created that circumstance to prove it. And it's like, see, I knew that you were like this. I knew you would just give up. I knew that you didn't really care about me. I knew that you weren't. And it's like, okay, you created this circumstance in order. You set someone up for failure. And so. And it's. That's why it's important to recognize it. And I think one of the things that. That I. That I learned is as far as,

Nicole [00:21:20]: like, was I the first avoidant, like, woman you've been with? I guess to that level, I think to that.

John [00:21:28]: Well, to that level for sure. Right.

Nicole [00:21:31]: But I was at a high level. It was a high level, and it didn't. Okay. The other thing, too, is, like, avoidant people do, like, living alone, right?

John [00:21:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:40]: Because it's like, no one can whatever, Right? Yeah, exactly. And it's all about, yeah, go back home. I mess up, it's on me. Like. And that's the only person you feel like you have when you're avoidant.

John [00:21:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:52]: So, you know, I was good before you came along when I was single and living on my own. And then when you showed up. Yeah, exactly.

John [00:22:00]: Or even having a child. Right. Because you can't predict that behavior.

Nicole [00:22:04]: Right.

John [00:22:04]: It's like, it's gonna be. It's. It's a lot of all or nothing.

Nicole [00:22:07]: Mm.

John [00:22:08]: I'm the most loved. This is great. This relationship's awesome. This is the most horrible relationship ever. Everybody hates me. Like, it's. It flips between those. Those two things because it's. It's like there's a perfectionism that I can't mess up, they can't mess up. You know what I mean? Otherwise it's not. It's not the perfect thing and I could lose that. And so that's. It is. Yeah. Because you can't control that environment. And that's because one of the things that you would say is, like, I would just not be around this kind of person. Well, it's like, okay, yeah, that's literally avoidant. Like, to be like, I'm not going to be around people that I don't like. Again, you should have boundaries. You don't have to be around negative people.

Nicole [00:22:47]: And partially true, partially avoidant.

John [00:22:51]: Yeah, because there's truth to it. Like setting boundaries. You shouldn't force yourself to be around people that are not your people that you don't like. But at the same time, life is going to bring you in the path of people that you don't necessarily want to be around. And you can't just be run away and hide and escape from them, you know, or, you know, or difficult situations, difficult conversations, relationships that may be strained. But the avoidant is like, well, if I was just by myself, look, any

Nicole [00:23:16]: other avoidant person definitely would have ran away from a lot of the situations that I've been put through.

John [00:23:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:22]: But no, you're right, because it is. It does feel like, how can you love me if you're acting this way? You know what I mean? Like, how can you love somebody and then totally flip the switch, like, to the extreme. Yeah, I guess that's like, that's the hard part. And that's where that's probably. Honestly too, like you said what avoidant people probably felt in some degree in their early childhood. And that's why, like, they can maybe feel like somebody cares.

John [00:23:53]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:54]: But I feel like until you meet somebody that, like, you honestly were the first person that showed me that you can care in a hard situation.

John [00:24:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:04]: Like, no one else really made me feel that way except you. And that also too, was very beneficial for me to see and be like, oh, like it isn't one or the other. Because it does feel like one or the other, you know, too anxious or avoidant people. Right. I feel like that is what causes these things. Both of these things.

John [00:24:26]: Yeah. That's why it's not secure.

Nicole [00:24:27]: Right.

John [00:24:27]: Because their relationship is always in jeopardy.

Nicole [00:24:29]: Right, Right.

John [00:24:30]: Secure is when it and, and the key, I think, to moving to secure that I found in my own life. And this is when it does fluctuate for me because yeah, a lot of times I'm in the middle of. Right, right there, unsecure. But sometimes I might go to one side or the other and what controls it is my own self confidence and self efficacy. When I am on my stuff and I know what I'm doing and I feel secure in myself, my identity, who I am as a person and have that self confidence, then I'm more secure because then I'm in the perspective of, okay, if something's going on with someone else, it's not me, it's something going on with them. It's not personal. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:25:15]: You're not letting it wear you down. So then you're either anxious or avoidant or. Yeah, no, that, that is tr. That is true. And I think that's also besides your help in like me facing a lot of the avoidant behavior and like your guidance to work through that. I think that honestly that has been the biggest thing is like not taking people's stuff personally because I was also doing that as well because I do think weirdly, avoidant people are kind of people pleasers as well because they're avoiding hard conversations to not hurt someone's fear feelings.

John [00:25:54]: Right?

Nicole [00:25:54]: But they're, they're keeping all that in, right? And so they're building resentment. So then by the time they like have a blow up, it's not like usually a screaming thing. It's usually they have collected all this resentment and now they're like, that's the final straw. And then you as the person, you're like, what? You didn't even say anything.

John [00:26:17]: Right?

Nicole [00:26:17]: Because the most of the time they don't exactly. We don't say anything.

John [00:26:21]: Yeah. They're like, I dropped all these hints, right? And it's like, well, yeah, because you've just now ended the relationship or shut down completely and you never gave the other person a chance to fix the things because you never really communicated the thing well.

Nicole [00:26:36]: And then the thing is like, oh, well, they should just know. Okay? And I, I have said this.

John [00:26:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:41]: Not in our relationship, I've said this.

John [00:26:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:44]: And I believed this.

John [00:26:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:46]: And I think a lot of avoidant people do believe this. But what changed my mind with this is that I can't read their mind. Why do I expect them to read my mind? Right. Like, that's not realistic.

John [00:27:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:00]: And I do think that, sure, maybe, like, if it's the extreme you feel like your partner doesn't like isn't asking you about your day or like doesn't even really talk to you about anything and like kind of just talks about their stuff. I can see where that would feel like, like they don't care. But that is a very extreme, like rare sort of situation.

John [00:27:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:25]: But a lot of avoidant people act like a normal situation. Is that situation. Does that make sense? Like, yeah, they, in their mind they're making it into this like extreme thing. Right. Where they're thinking, they're literally convincing themselves that their partner does not care about them. They never ask what's wrong. They never like be like, hey, where do you want to go for dinner? They never are considerate of them. That's what they're convincing themselves when like one inconvenient thing happens.

John [00:27:52]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:27:53]: You know what I mean? Like they paint this whole picture because like you said, it has to fit the narrative of everyone ends up disappointing me in the end.

John [00:28:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:03]: And when your mindset is that right, Whether you're consciously doing it or not.

John [00:28:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:09]: Like you said again, you are looking for those things to back up that belief.

John [00:28:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:15]: To either end up full blown self sabotaging it or heading that way as an avoidant person. You're either heading towards blowing it up or you're. You probably did blow it up already. Like there is no not blowing it up. Really. Not unless you notice these behaviors in yourself and try to become more secure in your attachment like you said and work through it rather than keeping tally.

John [00:28:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:45]: Before, you know, you leave because you know it's going to get messed up anyway.

John [00:28:49]: And a good way to look at it is in terms of how you get your needs met. Right. So the avoidant person says that if I emotionally burden people, I won't get my needs met. And I'm not going to get my needs met anyway, so I'm not going to try to get my needs met. The anxious person says I can get my needs met if I keep on asking. Yeah. If I keep on trying to get my needs met. The secure person says I can meet my own needs is that I'm not expecting people to meet my needs. I can meet my needs. And that becomes the difference between being codependent and interdependent. The anxious and the avoidant are both codependent situations instead of interdependent where you're choosing to depend on each other versus I need. I have to get my needs met from this other person. And it's the style in which you do it. The avoidant person says the only way I can get my needs met is by being people pleaser and being perfect. And if I do everything right then they'll notice and they will come and meet my needs without me asking. Because if I ask about it I'll get let down, they'll get upset at me.

Nicole [00:29:59]: Right.

John [00:30:00]: We just saw some of this talk about this pattern last night with, with our daughter. Some of the stuff that she was expressing that, that people were making her feel that way. Right. Whereas the, the anxious person is, is like okay, well if I, you know, their strategy for getting their needs met is I have to like, I have to love bomb them. I have to like show that, you know, like if I do all this and I'm and I, and I show them how much I love them then they're going to come back and, and meet meet my needs. You know, stop running away. Like you know, so, so I think that's, that's really the key thing and that's where it comes back to the self confidence is that if you're, you know, you don't want to be hyper self reliant. It's more having the self esteem and self confidence of, of saying okay, I'm not depending on someone else to meet my need, especially my emotional needs. And from that place that's where the security comes from. Is it really? Because if you're constantly in the place of my needs have to be met from someone else then it's not going to happen 100% of the time. And so you're going to get into a panic state one way or the other. So that's the thing is for the avoidant to realize that look, your strategy for getting your needs met is that you're trying to people please and trying to be perfect and that's going to backfire. That doesn't get your needs met. You have to be in some degree, have some self efficacy and say okay, I can meet my needs, I can still trust someone else but I can't put everything, my whole expecting my emotional state to be this person's gonna act perfect and I can't win their love by we always talked about love is a gift, it's not something that's earned. I can't win the love because the avoidant person is trying to win the love by doing so many things. Like all the people that we know that, that are avoidant1 One common characteristic is they're trying to be so good, they're trying to do so many Things give so many gifts, whatever it is, in order to win and earn the love, and that never works.

Nicole [00:32:12]: Well, like you said, it's like you try to be perfect because then you feel like it'll just. You'll just naturally get what you want, like you said. But then also because you're trying to be perfect and you're not. No one is right. You also want your partner to be perfect, and they're not because no one is right. So then you think that they're wrong, even though you know that you're not perfect. You know you're trying your hardest and that somehow feels good enough, I guess.

John [00:32:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:38]: So when you feel also like your partner's not trying as hard to be good enough or they make a mistake, you're like, oh, well, they're not like me or whatever. Like, they're not doing what I'm doing right, what you think is right. But you are shaming yourself because you are taking this stuff personally, like you said. Because that's really the key is, like, you can't try to be perfect, but then when you make a mistake, you also take it so personally on yourself. And that's what a lot of avoidant people do. It's like they beat themselves up for not being perfect, Right? Because they're beating their partner up for not being perfect in the sense of like, oh, I guess you're not really for me, or like, I can't. That my perfect partner wouldn't do this. Or, you know what I mean? Like, they make all these excuses for why this isn't going to work when their partner messes up.

John [00:33:23]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:33:24]: And they do do that to themselves, but it's with shame, right. Whether the person knows it or not, it's with shame. So then they feel bad for not being perfect, so then they push being perfect even more and on the other person even more.

John [00:33:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:40]: And then it just causes a lot more problems than if they just communicated and stopped trying to be so perfect and then expecting that of their partner as well. Like, you have to. I feel like as an avoidant person, you have to realize, like, there has to come a point to break your avoidant behavior where you accept that you're not perfect and you accept the ways that, like, you're bad. I don't want to say bad because it's not bad, but like, your dark side or your bad tendencies. Right. Because you can't accept that in other people unless you accept it in yourself first, honestly. And so you have to kind of wake up and be like, I was trying to be everything to everybody and try to be perfect. And I even let myself down and I beat myself up even when I wasn't realizing I was doing it. Because I feel shameful that I messed up. I felt shameful that I wasn't perfect. And then you have to realize that you put that on everyone else as well, too.

John [00:34:41]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:42]: And no one can live up to that. You can't even live up to that.

John [00:34:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:46]: And we had a long conversation about this, and it really helped me realize this as well. Like, and wake up and kind of like, stop putting that on other people. And then also, like, the not taking things personally. But I really feel like avoidant people can't trust other people.

John [00:35:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:03]: And they instill that by not communicating with them. Like, if you just communicated more.

John [00:35:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:13]: Even the things that you're afraid are going to hurt someone's feelings. Like, I do believe that you need to say it the right way.

John [00:35:19]: Right. For sure.

Nicole [00:35:20]: Like, that doesn't mean that you go from not saying anything to being like, your shirt is so ugly. Like, that's not. No, that's not how you do it. That doesn't mean you go from repressing everything to now you're just spewing what you think is honesty on everyone else. That's not correct either.

John [00:35:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:37]: And your shirt's not ugly, by the way. I was just using that as an example. But you cannot have trust without communication. And the funny thing is, is that, like, avoidant people think they can't trust other people.

John [00:35:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:50]: But other people can't trust avoidant people because they're avoiding talking about stuff and then they're harboring resentment. And then the other person on the other side's like, well, you never said any of this stuff.

John [00:36:02]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:03]: And then the avoidant person's like, well, I didn't think I had to. I thought it was obvious. It's not obvious.

John [00:36:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:08]: It's not obvious at all. Because it was all happening in your own mind.

John [00:36:11]: Yeah. Because you're. Yeah. You're running this whole scenarios and all these reasons and explanations instead of actually asking the person.

Nicole [00:36:19]: Right.

John [00:36:19]: And. And that's where kind of. Again, that's where the whole definition of secure comes from. Going back, a little bit of what you said is that it's knowing that you are loved no matter what. That love isn't conditional because. And that's also how to be a good parent. Right. If you don't want to create these insecure attachment styles in your child, is that what they do. Their behavior does not influence how much you show them love. Because that's what happened to the child in the childhood was that they learned ways in order to get love. Right. That's the same thing as getting your needs met. But just like that whole perfection thing comes down to, all right, well, if I'm not perfect, I'm not loved. And it's like, to be secure is to say it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what I do or I don't do. I'm loved despite that. Because relationship. In a relationship, you. You love the, the other person. It's not about how are they behaving or what are they doing.

Nicole [00:37:24]: Not to say that, but kids can't understand that. That's why we learn these behaviors. Right. Like a kid can't see their parent being avoidant.

John [00:37:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:31]: Or like giving them the silent treatment or like, you know, whatever anxious parent might do. I don't know.

John [00:37:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:36]: But a child can't see that and be like, oh, I'm loved anyway.

John [00:37:40]: Well, you know, can see it by example. For example, that's what we talked about before is like, when you discipline, if you do that with love, without anger. Because when a child makes a mistake, are you now withdrawing love from them because they've upset you in some way?

Nicole [00:37:57]: Right.

John [00:37:58]: Even though you still love them, they know, like, you know that.

Nicole [00:38:01]: Right.

John [00:38:02]: But if you're acting in a way that's cold to them because they now did something that you didn't like, or you give them a silent treatment, then they're learning that, okay, when I act a certain way or I'm too needy or whatever it is, I'm not loved. And so that's the thing is you can demonstrate it to a child by the discipline, by having consequences. You have to have consequences. If you don't have it, then it creates a whole different problem with it, but you have the consequences. But you discipline in love, the difference between discipline and punishment. And they, they feel that it's. It's a consequence, a natural consequence of their actions, but it does not cause a. A disconnect in. In. In love.

Nicole [00:38:46]: Right. But I would say that a parent that can do that is mostly, at least in that moment, secure, for sure,

John [00:38:54]: that you have to be. To do that. Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:56]: Because an actual avoidant parent and an actual anxious parent are not going to behave that way most of the time. And that's why a lot of us end up the way that we end up. Right. Because you didn't feel like there was unconditional Love. Like, even as an adult, you can look back and you can be like, I know my parents did love me. But as a child, you don't know. Like, you feel like when your parent gives you the silent treatment after you upset them, they don't love you anymore.

John [00:39:22]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:39:23]: And they don't say, I still love you.

John [00:39:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:26]: Like, they just talk to you one day after. You know, ladies, a lot of them don't even apologize.

John [00:39:32]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:39:32]: So, like, and maybe an anxious parent would be, like, clinging to the child and being like, are you sure you still love me? Or, I don't know. You know, like, I don't. I don't know how an anxious parent would act. But, you know, both those situations, like, both of those situations, if the parent doesn't have at least some secure attachment that they have worked on.

John [00:39:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:57]: They're not going to be able to give that to their kid. And that's why, though, you see people who have, like, extreme versions of one or the other, they didn't usually have a parent that made them feel loved in those hard moments. And it is important, and it is what we should give every kid.

John [00:40:14]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:15]: Because that will help them also grow up more secure. And who doesn't want their kid to be set up emotionally as well as, like, getting ready to tackle the world and all the other ways that we prepare children to face the world, like, that should be the most important, is how they emotionally deal with all that stuff. So, yes, I agree with you, but I would say that any parent that's doing that, like, we try to do, it's. It is a. You have to work through your own stuff.

John [00:40:42]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:40:43]: Otherwise, and be secure for your child and your relationship and, like, for your future. Like, you can't just run away from everything. And that's another thing. Part of the avoidant is running away. Like, and I would even do that when I. Like, something bad wouldn't happen. Like, right before I met you, when I lived in Florida, there was a part of me that was kind of like, oh, I kind of, like, just want to move somewhere.

John [00:41:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:06]: You know what I mean? And, like, I didn't think of that as, like, avoidant, because I'm like, I'm not talking to anybody.

John [00:41:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:13]: Nothing bad is happening. I'm just kind of bored right now.

John [00:41:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:17]: You know what I mean? And so. And I also had a lot of jobs, which is probably the same thing, too. Like, I genuinely liked them.

John [00:41:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:24]: But I would be like, okay, time for something else. You know what I mean? And, like, in a Way that's also avoidant is like thinking that this is what you want in life. But when I became more secure, I'm like, actually like all I want is just to kind of be around my family and like live a healthy life. Like I don't need to like go and do stuff all the time or I don't need to like, I'm not bored.

John [00:41:48]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:49]: And need some, something else to excite myself.

John [00:41:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:53]: So even like running away or constantly trying to switch things up, it's still like a distrust in yourself. Like it's still.

John [00:42:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:01]: Like you're, you're not comfortable with yourself because when you need to change something like that to make you feel something, that's, that's an inner problem.

John [00:42:12]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:42:12]: Not an outer problem.

John [00:42:14]: Yeah. And a couple of points on the avoiding thing that I wanted to kind of back on the parenting. But it also goes with, with just in a relationship. Is that when you're. Because you said about like, you need to be secure in order to be able to do it, to parent correctly is that you might not even notice it. You might think that you're, you're, you're just being, being loving, but you'll, you'll act differently towards the person. You might not give them a silent treatment, but they can feel it. They can feel that you're treating them differently or acting in a way that's different to them and whether that be a child or in a relationship. So you might think that you're okay because you didn't yell at them or you didn't silent treatment them. But that happens in a relationship. Someone will say, well, what's wrong? I'm just stressed. I'm just having side. I'm just thinking about things. It's like they know something's off with you because you are acting differently to them because you don't like something that they did. And so that's the thing is you can't hide it. You have to actually work through it. Otherwise you're going to be thinking that you're responding the right way, which we should talk about how to respond, especially when you're dealing with someone who's avoidant. And the second one is a phrase that if you say this because I think a lot of people that are watching this probably you should be able to figure out if you're avoiding. If you say things like, they would be better off without me. Right. That's another guilty. But not just you. I mean, I've heard it from multiple.

Nicole [00:43:49]: Yeah. People right now I'm Just saying that, like, I'm just admitting I've done all these things.

John [00:43:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:54]: Because I think it's important.

John [00:43:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:56]: Because people, I don't think people realize how. And again, I can't talk on anxious as much, but I don't think people realize because I think again, the tricky part, not to like go. I'm not going to go too far off your thing.

John [00:44:10]: Oh yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:44:11]: But I don't. I think people a lot of times confuse being independent with their avoidant behavior. And so it's a little bit more accepted because anxious, obviously it comes off as needy and it's a little bit more like off putting, I would say to some people.

John [00:44:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:31]: But like avoidant can come across as like independent and so it's not as like frowned upon, I guess you could say. But it's like intermingled together and it really, a lot of the time is not independence, it's avoidance.

John [00:44:48]: Exactly. Because it's like again, another phrase is I lost myself. I don't know who I am. I've lost myself in the relationship. I don't have an identity anymore. These are all avoidant phrases that you can recognize. Well, I mean, it's also helpful to recognize it when you see someone else doing it.

Nicole [00:45:05]: Right.

John [00:45:05]: And you're like, oh shit, I said the same things. And it's like, because it's like I didn't give them the script. They said the same exact things that I'm saying. And, and, and the thing is, because when you get into a relationship, you, you become one. There's a joint identity. You still have your own, but it's, it's a joint identity mostly. But that's the whole independent thing where the avoidant blows up the relationship after it gets deep enough because you're supposed to be like this. That's what deep intimacy is, where the identities merge together to a degree. And, and the avoidant person, when that starts to happen, they're like, I'm losing myself.

Nicole [00:45:40]: Yeah.

John [00:45:41]: And they freak out and they're like, ah, there's this person's wrong for me. I have to get away. I need, I lost myself. I need to figure out who I am again. And it's like, no, no, no. That's the natural process of intimacy, of becoming one is that, that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. You have to see who you are in that, in the view yourself from the relationship. Because you're not like an independent one person anymore. You are a unit. You know that that is, that is, is one that you're, you know, it's a. It's a symbiotic relationship and that. And so those are just some of the phrases and the things that, that you'll see that can help. You know, like, if you've said these things, you know, I'm sure a lot of people listening are watching are like, oh, shit, I've said those exact things. Okay, well, now you know, right. That you're. So I think we should talk about how do you help someone if you're in the secure. Who's.

Nicole [00:46:33]: Yeah, please, please take the floor on that, because you definitely have helped me a lot. Like, I genuinely don't think I could have broken the behaviors that I have without your help.

John [00:46:46]: Well, I love you and I want what's best for you. So I would say that the number one thing is to recognize it. And again, as a, As a. When you're in a secure place, like, don't take it personally. They're not, They're. They're living out their childhood, their past relationships. It's not about you. Because I think at first I did take it personally a lot. You know, like, are you looking at women at the gym? I'm like, you know, I was getting upset. Like, how. Why don't you trust me? It's like, it's not personal. It's not that, that, that you don't trust me. It's. You don't trust anyone.

Nicole [00:47:19]: Well, I did get anxious mixed in there because of what we went through as well, too. Because you did leave multiple times.

John [00:47:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:28]: And so it did make me. But then I still definitely had avoidant because I was already hard in the avoidant behavior. Right. But because of the other stuff that you and I went through, then it threw in some anxious in there. And like you said, that's kind of like the worst because you're like, like, I never said to you, like, go away. No, I want you to stay. But that essentially was what was happening.

John [00:47:48]: Yeah, but. But I think that the big thing is, like I said, it's just recognizing that it's. It's not personal what's going on. It's. It's a childhood. It's an ingrained way of dealing with the world. And, and, and the thing that I try to do is to reinforce to you that love is a gift and, and for coming from me, it's unconditional. And that no matter what you do, I'm going to love you, even if you make mistakes. And, and that it's. You can always come and talk to Me and sometimes we'll disagree, but I'm always going to love you. There's nothing that you're going to do that's going to change that. You know, in one, one phrase I like is, you know, I wouldn't necessarily say this to an avoidant, but you know, I can. You can unconditionally love someone, but not unconditionally stay with them. It's like there are certain boundaries that there are certain things you're not going to be like, okay, no matter what you do to me, I'm going to be here. It's like I'll still love you, but it might be from a distance, you know, but, but the main thing to emphasize I think is just that unconditional love when they make a mistake to have, you know, to have grace for them and to help them to see that when you're perfect, it doesn't make me love you more.

Nicole [00:49:06]: Right, right.

John [00:49:07]: When you admit mistakes, that actually makes me feel good, makes me feel. I appreciate that. Because the avoidant person also is very likely to never admit that they did anything wrong because hey, if you did something wrong, you're not going to be loved anymore. And so I think the way to help someone is to do that. That's the most important thing is showing the unconditional love. And then the second thing is to make them confront the things. Don't let them run away. Not in the anxious, needy, you don't love me anymore. Let me hold on to you tight. But on the.

Nicole [00:49:40]: Okay, no, we're going to talk about this.

John [00:49:42]: Yeah, there's no, we're not going to take five minutes. We're not going to sleep on this. We don't go to bed angry. We don't do this. We're going to hash this out and we're going to talk about this however long that it takes. Because this is how we deal with our problems. We don't run away from them. And it might be hard to do, but you've got to do that because if you allow the avoidant person to continue in those avoidant behaviors, then they're just gonna self sabotage.

Nicole [00:50:08]: Right, right. It will blow up their relationship at some point.

John [00:50:10]: Yeah. And, and I think the biggest thing that, that's, that's, that's been more recent for me that I've been really, really trying to focus on is just, just being, being completely non reactive and, and, and being a safe places, a safe person to talk to because that's also the avoidance fear. It's like, oh, I'll just Deal with the problems myself. Because if I talk to this person,

Nicole [00:50:33]: it can make it worse.

John [00:50:34]: Yeah, exactly. Where it's like, okay, sometimes you're going to hear things that you don't like and that's fine, but don't react to it. Still be loving in that response. You can disagree, you can say, hey, this is not correct. But staying loving, because they're looking for. If I say this, oh, now they're withdrawing love from me. Even though that might not be the case. Because it's. But. But if you are, I think it

Nicole [00:51:03]: is, honestly, because the same thing like you said with like avoidant people, even if you're not doing anything wrong, you can feel it.

John [00:51:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:10]: Like there is a difference between someone being upset and expressing that.

John [00:51:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:17]: And then someone trying to punish somebody with their emotions. And I think that even like secure people or people who are like, lean more towards that can punish.

John [00:51:30]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:31]: And like, that feels. That makes a avoidant person feel like, I'll just process this on, on my own. And really they can't. Even though they think they can.

John [00:51:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:42]: Because they would rather take on the discomfort.

John [00:51:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:46]: Even though they can't do it very well.

John [00:51:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:48]: Then like you said, like, bring it up and then be punished. Or a lot of times they don't have secure partners, so they're either also getting the silent treatment or having the anxious person be like, what, what do you mean? Like, you hate me, you want to leave me, or whatever. And then now they have to deal with that.

John [00:52:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:52:07]: So, like, I'm not saying that again, because you can't expect the other person to be perfect.

John [00:52:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:52:14]: And I think when you work on your avoidant tendencies and you become a little bit more secure, you also realize that you have to be like, when your partner is also going to be human and like, maybe try to punish you or something. You have to get your together. But like to kind of go back to about, like sometimes that happens. I think it is. I think what avoidant people also need to realize since they do have that like, perfectionism as well a lot of the times is that, yeah, like, even if the people around you can notice that you're still a little different, you have to not beat yourself up about that. Because just even staying in it for an avoidant person is a big step. Like, yes, you need to work on that. But I don't want avoidant people to be like, oh, so they can tell when I'm like, not even leaving or. And I'm like trying to do the right thing and they can, like, tell that I'm, like, still kind of, like, detaching in my brain or whatever's happening.

John [00:53:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:09]: Like, sure, that might be happening, but. But also, like, you have to think about all the things. You didn't run away.

John [00:53:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:16]: You didn't, like, just give up. You didn't blow up the situation. Like, there's a lot of wins there. And even if, like, you're upset because you can still feel like I'm a little cold or something, if I'm trying to figure out the situation, I just need to take that and do try to do my best next time. Or maybe ask you, like, how do you think I can, like, be like, what is a better way to communicate with you? Or how can I communicate with you where I feel like I can openly talk to you?

John [00:53:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:46]: Because I do feel like sometimes even when an avoidant person's trying to do the right thing, they still don't feel like they can talk to that person.

John [00:53:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:56]: And so that's why they are still detached even though they're trying to do the right thing.

John [00:54:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:00]: And I'm not trying to put it on other people, but the reality also is, is that, like, you want to help this person.

John [00:54:08]: And yeah. Even though it's. It might be their thing, it's still you want to help as much as you can being the other person.

Nicole [00:54:17]: Right, Right.

John [00:54:18]: So.

Nicole [00:54:18]: Right.

John [00:54:18]: So what you're saying is correct. It should all help.

Nicole [00:54:21]: Like, we should all be a safe place for our partner.

John [00:54:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:24]: Like, and I guess that's the thing is, like, sometimes in the past. Yeah. I'm sure I have come across that way because I know that's why you're bringing it up. And it's true, because it still hasn't felt safe. But I know that recently you can tell the difference, because I have felt safe. Safe.

John [00:54:41]: Right. And that. And that's where I was falling down before that I recognized. And that's what I had been working on to, to change is to make sure that. That, you know, I. I think when someone's not avoidant, when they bring something to you and you act a little more upset, it's not going to create that big of a problem. But when an avoidant person opens up and they bring the thing, you better make sure that it feels 100% safe. And that's what I had to learn was to. To. To. To deal. To deal in that way. You know what I'm saying? And. And that's good. Like, you know, and that. And that. That helped me as A person as well. Because you should just deal with everybody like that, obviously. Right.

Nicole [00:55:20]: But that's ideal. But you're a human.

John [00:55:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:23]: And so I don't expect that from you even all the time, even though you've done a really great job. I will say that. But another thing that an avoidant person needs to do in those situations too, which is what I've learned more recently, is that going back to, like, not taking things personally will also help you if you're still kind of like feeling a little detached or distant even though you're doing the right thing.

John [00:55:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:45]: Is not taking what's going on personally. And that means sometimes you having to say again, in the right way how you feel to someone that is upset or trying to punish you or whatever.

John [00:55:57]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:58]: And then however they respond is their. Their thing to feel like you can care and you can obviously be there.

John [00:56:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:56:06]: But you don't try to take. You don't try to fix them and yourself.

John [00:56:09]: Right. Like, you make sure you're doing the right thing.

Nicole [00:56:12]: Right. Because I think they still get detached because they avoid. And people feel like they can't speak up. But you need to learn to speak up still in the right way. But also not allow somebody to bulldoze you to the point where you feel like you can't speak up because it's not safe. Like, you still need to do it even if it's not safe. And realize that how someone else is respond, like how someone responds to you is on them, not you. Just like, how you're not. You're, like, still detached, but you think you're doing the right thing is on you. Like, you still need to say what you need to say. Because that's also why you're, like, coming across, like, cold. Because you still have something that you're processing that you're not saying out loud. But it still, it still does need to be in the right way.

John [00:56:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:56]: But I think that if you, especially if you don't have somebody that is secure and wise enough to realize that they want to speak to everybody as a safe person no matter what.

John [00:57:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:06]: Because that's very rare.

John [00:57:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:09]: If you don't take personally what someone is, how they're reacting to you, and you still speak your truth in the right way, you will feel better. You won't treat that person that way. But you still might have to be like, I'm not going to have this conversation if you're yelling at me or whatever. You might have to have a boundary.

John [00:57:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:28]: Depending on how the person's acting, but you also won't take it personally.

John [00:57:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:57:33]: And so you'll be able to not come from that avoidant place because you're actually saying how you feel. You're speaking to them like you're speaking your truth.

John [00:57:42]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:57:43]: You're, like, showing them that you are trusting yourself and you're trusting them with this information. Whatever they do, that's on them. You can't control that. But you spoke your truth, and you will feel better regardless of what they say or do in the conversation.

John [00:57:58]: And that's what a boundary is. Right. So it's like, because we've talked about this a couple of times, but I think it's worth rehashing real quickly about the boundary thing. Is a boundary. You can think of it as, let's say that you have your yard in your neighbor's yard, and the boundary is the fence. And so this is what's your stuff, and this is what's my stuff. And so boundaries aren't. You. You take. You go into your neighbor's yard and put a fence in their yard. Right, Right. Boundaries are. You clearly delineate. It's like, you can do what you want to do, but I can do what I want to do.

Nicole [00:58:30]: Right.

John [00:58:31]: And so if you do this thing that's disrespectful to me, I'm not going to try and control you and say, you can't do that.

Nicole [00:58:38]: Right.

John [00:58:38]: But I am going to do this, and I'm going to withdraw from this conversation. And so it's like when you're setting a boundary, it's also the way to do it is in love. Because it's not like, you can't talk to me like that. I'm setting a boundary. Like, you know, you're crossing my boundary. No, no, it's. It's a gentle approach to say, look,

Nicole [00:58:58]: hey, we love each other.

John [00:59:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:59:00]: We should talk to each other. Like we do.

John [00:59:02]: Yeah. And. And that it's not the first thing, because some people are like, all right, let's. It's. It's like, yeah, if. If you met your neighbor and then your neighbor, you got into a little bit of a disagreement, a political disagreement or something, and you're like, I'm building a fence. You know, it's like, no, you don't just like, the boundary is something that you use as more of a last resort when you have to protect yourself and delineate what is yours and what is someone else's. A good section of a book that's not even related to boundaries. That talks about this concept is the courage should be disliked. There's a part, I think at the end of the book where he's talking about what's their bundle, I think he calls it, and what's yours. And it's like you can't take someone else's stuff. They have to carry their own load and you have to carry yours. And so it's like when you're setting the boundary in the relationship, especially with someone who is avoidant, you have to be loving why you're doing it. And it has to be very clear that, that it's not a withdrawal of love. It's not a way to, to block off the other person. It's a way of making sure that they take responsibility for their thing and you take responsibility for yours. But I think that's worth, worth saying so.

Nicole [01:00:18]: Yeah. Just the last thing I want to add, because it's funny you said the book the courage to be disliked is because I think avoidance need to have the courage to be disliked because the only time they have that is when they blow it up, right? And they like spew all the things out and they seem like, oh, I don't care if they don't like me anymore. But that's because you have not liked them. Like you have distanced yourself from that person enough to just blow up on them and end everything. So of course you don't care what they think anymore because you stopped thinking positively about them. But the reality is if from the very beginning when you had a hard truth to say, and again for like the third time, that doesn't mean be abrasive and rude and whatever, right? But if you have a hard thing to say, you have to be, you have to have the courage that they might not like that. You have to have the courage that they might be upset. You have to have the courage to say that thing anyway if it's that important to you that like it's causing resentment and even they don't think it's important even if they think it's stupid, right? Again, you have to have the courage to put that out there, right? Because that is what's going to build trust. You'll be build trust in yourself. You'll build trust in your relationship because you're actually talking about the things, you're not holding them in and you're not trying to figure them out on your own when you can't figure them out on your own if it involves another person. And so I think the whole courage to be disliked concept is important for Avoidant people. Because like we said, there is a people pleasing tendency in this.

John [01:01:50]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:01:51]: Which has to be perfect. And you know, can't. People can't be upset with them.

John [01:01:57]: Right.

Nicole [01:01:58]: And so you have to. I think the core things, I would say the core things as someone that was super avoidant even if you don't have a secure partner, is that you have to. One, I think you have to work on the proper, like staying in it. You have to really work on staying in it and not running away.

John [01:02:16]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:17]: Like facing it. You have to communicate even when it's hard.

John [01:02:23]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:23]: And have the courage to be disliked. And like understand they might not like that. Understand that they might be upset at you.

John [01:02:30]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:31]: But ultimately, like the third one is probably the most important is to not take things personally.

John [01:02:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:39]: Like you said, like know what is your lane and what is not your lane.

John [01:02:42]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:42]: Like know that I said this and they're entitled to their reaction and they can be upset with me.

John [01:02:48]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:49]: But I know that that's also them projecting this issue onto me as a person, which is what I used to do to people. If you're really self aware.

John [01:02:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:58]: You can realize that you were doing that too, you know, in a way.

John [01:03:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:03]: You know, and so then you won't take it as personally and you can still stay in it even more and actually repair the situation and you've talked about what you need to talk about and you'll be in an even better place once you finish the conversation. One, because you stayed in it. Two, cuz you spoke your truth. And three, because you're not taking it personally.

John [01:03:23]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:24]: And that is you on your way to a secure attachment.

John [01:03:28]: Yeah. Boom.

Nicole [01:03:31]: Mic drop. But it's on a stand, so can't drop it.

John [01:03:35]: Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. I think that. Yeah, I think you summed it up good.

Nicole [01:03:38]: So well, I appreciate your help. I would not be here without you, that is for sure.

John [01:03:43]: Well, I mean I've grown a lot in the process as well as, you know, as I've seen the places where I still need to do work and. And you've helped me with that and see that so.

Nicole [01:03:55]: And believed in me, so I've always believe in you.

John [01:04:00]: All right, well, I guess. Do we have anything?

Nicole [01:04:03]: I don't think so. Unless you can think of something.

John [01:04:06]: I don't think so.

Nicole [01:04:07]: No. Like I said, you've been doing a really great job with our conversations and I've also been trying to approach them also. Better.

John [01:04:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:18]: So, you know, I think we, we Both are obviously the type of people that are really conscious of that.

John [01:04:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:25]: And I feel like if I was doing it the wrong way, you would talk to me about it or if you were upset about the way I brought something up, you would say something. So.

John [01:04:35]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:37]: Knock on wood, though, because we, we don't want to say it, but.

John [01:04:41]: Yeah, but yeah, that's. I mean, that's the truth. And it's. Yeah. In what we had talked about from the last time. I mean, that's what I've been working on is like to. To make sure that. That that is the case. And I think, you know, just to. To tie it all up. Relationship problems have to be solved in the relationship.

Nicole [01:05:00]: Yes.

John [01:05:00]: They can't be solved by yourself.

Nicole [01:05:02]: No.

John [01:05:02]: And that's the thing is you might think that you need some space and, you know, but you got to solve it with the person.

Nicole [01:05:10]: Yeah.

John [01:05:11]: If you don't do that, no matter what it is, it's not going to get solved.

Nicole [01:05:15]: That's true. I think. Even if you realize it's your personal trait that you need to work on, why wouldn't you work on it with your partner?

John [01:05:23]: Yeah. You have to. Otherwise it's not really going to get solved. So.

Nicole [01:05:26]: Yeah.

John [01:05:27]: All right, well, that's it for this week. If you have a question for us, you can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com or visit the website betterthan perfectpod.com and subscribe on there. We don't. We don't have very many subscribers on betterthan perfectpod.com. i guess everyone subscribed on YouTube, which is great.

Nicole [01:05:44]: But get them right to your email.

John [01:05:46]: Yeah. And then. Yeah, you get the. The new episode every time. All right.