John: Peace out. I'm out of here. You can take the kids. I'm done. That's not what I'm talking about. Without the ability to walk away as a man, you have no power. If in your heart of hearts you thought that no matter what you did to me, that I would stay, you would not have any respect for me. Like, you have to know that because you don't have respect for yourself. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every F we find no way. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. I just did that for your entertainment purposes. You know, I can tell the difference between a stumped John pause and a dramatic John pause.

Nicole: Yeah, exactly. So, I know that. Oh, potential spam. Shall we answer?

John: To sing you're live on the air. We were just talking about scam callers and stuff, and of course, I get a scam caller while... It could have been a scam guy, and he's like, "How's your relationship? Exactly. Like, oh, you need my social security number? How are you doing in your relationship? What do you actually do for work?"

Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Did you tell her you went into the office, but really you're in your car right now, spam calling every number that you can find?

John: Yeah, but never, never register for a US domain because I've gotten 500 calls from every design firm, agency, logo design, website building, whatever it is in the world. You got to give their sales team props for getting out there and trying to get that.

Nicole: It's all different companies.

John: No, I know, but they're, you know, they're all trying to get out there and get you.

Nicole: Well, it's all call centers, you know. It's like, so, but because you can't hide your protect your registration.

John: Yeah, because it's because they have to verify that you're in the... I don't know, whatever. But never registering a US again. Ever. Never.

Nicole: I'll keep that in mind. But yeah, well, I mean, I guess maybe that's our little spiel. Maybe we should've answered. Gave it a little, "If it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true." That's what I found out. People get scammed based on their greed. That's what happens.

John: So, well, supposedly they're getting good, really believable. As we were talking about before we started the official episode, they're probably using AI to get more.

Nicole: Yeah, but it's greed and ego, right? Like, I told you the one with the Candace Owens one, where they're trying to... Not Candace Owens, uh, Cenace Cameron, right? Yeah, where they're trying to get me. But they egoed me, right? They're like, "Oh, look at you. We're gonna pay you money to be on her podcast." Right? I mean, they didn't scam me, but they had me going a little bit. I was like, "Oh."

John: Or I told you about it. I was like, "Oh, look, I got invited for this thing." Right? So, 'cause they're ego. But if I really like ego check myself, I'm like, "Is this... Am I really... Does she really want to pay me money?"

Nicole: You told me it was her. I was like, "Okay, well, I mean, I can see that maybe she wants like a male perspective or something." But at the same time too, I'm like...

John: But then pay money. Full House ladies hitting you up. I'm like, "I could see more of like guys that are in the same kind of area as you are, just guys in general 'cause you talk about male sort of topics." But, and even some women that do relationship stuff. But I was like, "I don't know." But the real thing, granted, it did look believable. I will give you that for sure. But the thing that was really the most weird about it was not even that it was her, it was that they said Facebook live for the podcast. I was like, "Why?" And that they wanted to pay me money, right? Like, to be... That I could see if it's a big enough podcast, but for you pay you to be on a Facebook live podcast? No.

Nicole: Yeah, no.

John: I don't think so. Like, fly you out 'cause they value your information. But I get, I get in my email inbox at least two or three phishing attempts per day because they, they want, you know, if you can get a hold of Bulldog Mindset assets, right? There's some... Well, you used to have a... Steal my YouTube channel, right? Trying to steal my YouTube, Instagrams. I remember that. Luckily, that hasn't happened in a while. And if it does happen, we will find you, just like the other ones. Like, blocking all these like fake crypto Bulldog Mindset things that were popping up. But that hasn't happened in a while, which is good.

Nicole: Yeah. So, that's our, uh, our don't fall for the scams. So, the topic for today, yes, is, uh, it is my topic, but you got the suggestion of it, which I think is good, which is, can you turn around a relationship where the woman is masculine and the man is feminine to be man is masculine and woman is feminine? Can it be turned around? 'Cause we were kind of talking about this the other day. You asked me like, "Do you have any topic suggestions?" And, you know, that one, I felt like I was also interested in hearing your like answer to that more in depth.

John: Yeah, and seeing what I think about it. 'Cause I do feel like some people are in that situation, and a lot of people can will turn it around.

Nicole: Yeah, in fact, I would almost say that a majority of people are in that situation.

John: I would agree with that. Right. They don't know it. Right. But even talk about sitcoms. You know, I don't know, Full House, but a lot of sitcoms, right? Well, there was no mom.

Nicole: Yeah, there was no. But a lot of sitcoms, right? TV, movies, they... It is reversed. The woman is the man, right? She... The man is a dumb, you know, like, "Oh, Dad is dumb," right? Like, poor dumb dad does stupid things, and he, you know, he doesn't... He gets in trouble.

John: Right. Yeah, that's... That is what a lot of people grew up with, and then that influenced their relationships where... I mean, so many guys I talk to today, they're like, "Oh, let me ask..." Even when I'm doing sales calls. Oh my god, when I do a sales call, and a guy's like, "Well, let me ask the boss." I just... I have to like, I have to hold my together because I just want to be like, "What the do you mean you need to ask the boss? You're the boss. You're the man. You're the boss. Not... You don't..." But I don't do it on the sales call because, you know, I keep it inside, and I just say, "Oh, I just joke a little bit. I'm like, 'Oh, you can't make the decision yourself, huh?'"

Nicole: Okay, well, I mean, I think it's nice he wants to consider his wife. I do feel like the issue is when calling her the boss, you know what I mean? Because that usually is a legitimate thing, not as much as a joke as guys like to act like it is. Right? Because women are typically handling the finances and things like that, and that's usually why they have to ask her too, right? If you think about it, she's the one paying the bills.

John: That he bought your course, she's going to be like, "Where did you... What is this?" So, I mean, I get it, and I'm not saying that that's the right way that things should be handled, but I can see where, and then can be like, "I'm the captain now. Look at me. I'm the captain now."

Nicole: Yeah, well, he's got to step up and do the captain things though to be the captain.

John: But a lot of relationships are like that, you know, who wears the pants. It's like those things, happy wife, happy life type of guys that are just, you know, they're just vibing, just trying to survive is what they're trying to do, right? And so, but they don't realize they're in a feminine role, and the woman is in the masculine. She's the one calling the shots, taking over.

Nicole: You know, right. So, yeah, so that's true, but can it be reversed? What do you think? Do you think it could be reversed?

John: I think it can, but I think it's extremely hard. And here's why: like, if you started out and you're however long into your relationship, and it was that dynamic, like in your actual relationship, right? Let's say for 5 years, I won't even say for a long time, some people it's been the whole relationship like you said, right? For 5 years, it's really hard to switch that dynamic. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would take work from both people because she can't be more feminine and submissive if you're still being feminine and submissive as a man. So, you have to also step up. So, it's hard, and then also too, we'll talk about at the end, like when you're a woman that has been in her masculine for so long and even if you don't want to be, it can sometimes be hard to get out of that and to stop acting that way and to stop doing the habits that you get stuck in by being a masculine woman. And I did that, you know, and we'll talk about it at the end where I messed up this week. But so, and we, from our whole start of our relationship, you've been the masculine one and I've been the feminine one, but like sometimes there's still those habits that you have, even if you are majority feminine right of the time, that can still pop up. So, if a woman's majority masculine for your relationship, that is just going to be really, really hard, and there probably is going to be a setback at times from both people. And so, if you're committed to doing it, I think you can do it, but I think it's probably the hardest thing to do is flip it. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's going to be hard to do.

Nicole: Yeah, no, I agree.

John: I mean, like, just think of it this way, right? Imagine if our relationship started out right, and I acted feminine, like you were calling the shots, right? Imagine if that was the case, you would have little respect for me, right? So, it's like, once you've lost that respect as a man, it's really hard to gain that respect. Like, it would be, think about how hard it would be for you to then now respect me as a man and for me to start calling the shots if I had allowed you to do that right initially. It's just hard for a woman to respect a man that she didn't respect, and that's also why it's a slippery slope why I tell guys all the time is like, man, the moment that she disrespects you, and you allow that, it's like you're not going backward. Like, it's very hard to go back up that hill because it just piles on. There's going to be name-calling, there's going to be all these things that are going to follow on from that when she's, you know, when she learns that she can get away with it and do it. So then she'll start doing other things. And it doesn't mean that a woman never disrespects a man because everyone's human, everyone makes mistakes, right? But it means that when a man does not do something about it, when he does not handle that right, doesn't have a boundary, doesn't tell her, "You can't talk to me that way," or, you know, right, if he doesn't shut it down, yeah, the moment he just takes it, that's when it's hard. But that's why it's so hard to turn this around is because that's usually how it goes, is right, he's figured out she's kind of dominated him and figured out that he figured out when we are in conflict, I lose, right? And so I'm going to avoid conflict, right, just like like a primate, you know, with the alpha male. It's like the alpha, he's like, "I just avoid conflict with the big gorilla," right? Like, he's made her into the big gorilla, and so he just has become docile and just avoids. That's why it's, he says, "She's the boss, she wears the pants, let me go ask the boss," right? Because that's his way, he jokes, but in reality, he knows that if he does that, then he can avoid the conflict that he will inevitably lose, and that's where, you know, he gets stuck in that feminine role, you know. So, right.

Nicole: Well, so besides, okay, well, I guess, but man, we, what do you think? Do you think, how do you think it can be turned around? What do you think? Do you think, I mean, it sounds like you think that it can, but is there anything that you would add to what I said, like how would a man turn it around? And I guess I could tell you how a woman would turn it around.

John: Well, in order for a man to turn it around, right, what he has to do, first thing he has to do, right, is he has to accept risk and loss, right? Because without the ability to walk away as a man, you have no power, right? A woman has to know, right, no matter what the relationship is, that in the relationship with her, if she does mistreat you and she does not respect you, whatever the cost is to you, you will walk away. She has to know that because if she doesn't, now again, it doesn't mean that you're just going to walk away, that she can't count on you, right? Because the promise you're making is, look, as long as you do not mistreat me, and you're respecting me, and you know, I will be with you. I will be 100% loyal to you. I will be with you to death and beyond. But boundary, walking away, that you're talking about, right? So, he has to get that bound. He has to put it in her mind to realize, which again, it's not to manipulate, it's not even to get the outcome to change things. He has it for himself because that's part of being masculine is stepping up and saying, "Look, whatever the consequences are, I will not allow myself to be disrespected. I will not allow this to happen to me." And so, you know, and I get resistance from some guys that are like, "Well, I have, what if I'm married and I have kids? I can't just walk away." And it's like, well, it's not ideal, but if you don't have it within you that you would, right, then you're just, you can't change the situation at all, right.

John: So, you have to be willing to accept the rest. That's the first thing he has to do. And sometimes, even stopping the conversation with someone who's acting that way, being like, "I'm not going to talk to you unless you can talk to me with respect," or something like that, can help somebody turn things around. It's still a boundary, and you do have to stop talking to them or be like, "I'm going to go in the other room and work on something else, and you can let me know when you're ready to have a decent human being conversation." You know, sometimes that can help because, like you said, guys don't want to be like, "So, I just walk away anytime she does that?" It's like, you can start with things like, "I'm not going to continue this conversation if you're going to talk to me in that way. We can talk about whatever you need to talk about, but it has to be respectful." And if she can't do that, you do walk away and go do your own thing, and then you know, allow her to come to you when she's ready. Don't even ask her if she's like, don't even go to her and be like, "So, are you good now?" Then that's going to make her even more angry. Allow her to come to you because, at this point, she's the one that messed up anyway, so she does need to be when repairing.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. I'm not saying that like she disrespects you, or you get into one time, and then you're like, "Peace out, I'm out of here. You can take the kids. I'm done." Right? Like, that's not what I'm talking about. It's setting the like, but you have to be willing to do that, right? It's like if it comes to that, in your heart of hearts, you thought, "There's no matter what you did to me, that I would stay, you would not have any respect for me." Right? Like, you have to know that look because you don't have respect for yourself. Right? If I mistreat this man, like he will be fiercely loyal. If I don't mistreat him, but if I mistreat him, he's going to be gone. Like, but if you feel, if you sense in your heart that no, it doesn't matter what I do, he's just going to stick around and constantly, you know, then you have no respect for me. Like, you can't see me as a man, right? Like, because there's no risk, there's no fear of loss, there's no conceptualization of what you have because you can't lose it, you know?

John: Right. So, well, it's funny you say that because I'm reading this very religious book called, I think it's called "Loving Him Well," and he actually talks about women doing that. Because yeah, they, you know, a lot of times too, they can be on the side like men are, where they just let the man be angry at them and talk to them however and demean them, and then the man doesn't have respect for her. And like, that's not as important, respect isn't as important for women. But if a man is also demeaning you and belittling you and being condescending, he's not showing you love either. So, he actually talks about how women have to have a boundary, like you said, and act on it and be like, "You know, we will be separating if we can't, if you can't talk to me in a respectful way." And even one guy was like, "When she had respect for herself, it made me respect her more." And so, I think it's really important for guys to respect themselves. And I'm sure, going through what they've been through, being the more submissive one and just kind of like people-pleasing to keep their wife happy or not upset with them, they probably have lost some respect for themselves. So, the first thing is, they need to have respect for themselves and know that they're good men and that they deserve to be able to walk away if someone can't treat them well.

John: Yeah, absolutely. As a man, you cannot be hanging on. You cannot be living your life like I'm in a risk. You have to be the man and use your best judgment, which is not always 100% correct, but you have to rely on that. Obviously, taking the input of other people, obviously taking into consideration and putting others' needs above yours that are in your care, but ultimately, you have to make your decisions, and you have to let them lie wherever it is. And if it means that you're going to lose the girl, then you lose the girl. But you don't lose that because if you lose that, you lost the girl already. You know what I'm saying? That's the thing. So, if you're in that situation as a guy, you have to make that just, you have to accept the loss of the relationship. Like, you have to actually even visualize it and be like, "Okay, I accept this. I'm going to live my life and be the man that I am, and if that causes the loss, it's not what caused the loss, it's me that caused the loss, being myself, which I should be." Right? It's like, so it's never meant to be, which I'm sure is hard for men because they say, you know, that they pride themselves in being faithful and loyal. And I'm not saying that that's not true, but I'm just saying that from that perspective, it probably makes it harder for them to have to think about actually walking away because that also means that they're going to think they failed at being loyal or, you know, committed to the relationship. But if you really think about it, if you're a man in that position, is it really harder to walk away than to be with somebody that treats you in a way where you can't even be yourself? And you know, you can't, you're just people-pleasing for the rest of your life. Like, you do have to, obviously, take into account, you can't be selfish and, you know, just make decisions like, "Oh, okay, I just want to leave now in my marriage." Right? But at the same time, like, nobody deserves to be treated poorly. And you know, if actively try to work on that.

Nicole: That's why I wanted to mention the, you know, try to start with the conversations and being like, having a boundary there because things can turn around. But if they don't, and you've really tried, and you've had boundaries in other ways, then it might be time that you need to actually walk away, like you said.

John: Yeah, and it's even, you know, just like you're saying, I agree with it. It's not even that you have to like, take the step. I'm not even saying at this point to take the step process of trying to sit back and then eventually walk away. I'm saying that you have to know you can do it.

Nicole: Exactly. You have to say that ultimately, like, "I will walk away if I need to." Like, that is the first step, though. You can't even have a boundary about communication if you can't, in your mind, be like, "I will walk away if this happens. I will hold this boundary no matter what." You're right. That has to be the first step.

John: Immediately, that conversation we had with Josh, with the conditional love, you know, popped in. But I can rectify that, right? Because there's, you know, a lot of guys would say, "Well, I want to be unconditionally loving, you know. It's like, this is my woman. You can leave and love her. You can leave her because you love her." Right? Because people realize that. And again, I'm not trying to promote leaving; that's not the point. It's just that you have to have it. She has to look in your eyes and see it within you. If she doesn't see in you that you have what it takes to leave if you need to, then she's never going to trust you to lead her. Because she knows, and the reason why a woman can't, and I'm sure you can back this up, is that the reason why a woman can't follow a man that she doesn't see it in his eyes that he could leave is because she knows that whatever direction he's leading, he's influenced. He's not really leading because he's held back by fear, so he's not going to actually make his best decision.

Nicole: Right. He's going to do the thing that has the least risk, that prevents him from losing the thing that he wants. And a leader who leads you based on fear is not someone you can trust. Right? Just like, you know, when someone has an ulterior motive. Right? And it's like, or even when you're someone trying to sell you something, right? And you know that they're trying to make a quota, or they're trying to, they have some other interest, not your best interest. Right? But when someone is like, "No, I'm going to make this decision because this is the right decision. It's not because there's some financial loss or gain for me in it," then you trust them, and then you can follow them. Right? So, yeah, that makes sense.

John: Yeah. So that's the first step. True. I'm trying to think what else. Like, you know, and I think that encompasses a lot of taking their responsibilities, right? From her, right? And in that "Surrendered Wife, Empowered Wife" book, you know, the same lady, but different books, but similar concepts. A lot of women struggle with giving men the financial responsibility that they've had. I would say that's probably like the main thing that they struggle with the most. Right? Um, and a guy has to take over that, and he has to take over making the decisions, and he has to take over, you know, being the leader and the captain of the relationship. And like you said, like considering his wife. But ultimately making the decision because that's important too. Like, you can't go from people-pleaser guy also to dictator guy. You know, like there's no trust there. She has to, especially if she's going from masculine to feminine, right? Like not to take over from the man's side because we're talking about that right now, but that is also hard in a different way because it's going from protecting yourself to being vulnerable, which is scary. So you do have to still, while you're manning up and becoming more masculine, you have to still, you know, make her feel considered and connected to you in that intimate and close way, but also while putting your foot down and saying, "Hey, this is how it's going to be." Because a lot of women act like they don't want men to stand up to them and, you know, say how they feel, but they do. Because if a man doesn't, they want him to do it in the right way. Right? They want him to be a kind guy but who stands up for things, not a jerk. There is a difference. And because if he can't do that, then he can't stand up for you. He can't stand up for anything. Right? If he can't do that, because like you said, he'll just be people-pleasing, and then you won't know what he even really wants. Right? And then it'll be like, "I don't know what to believe. Like, do you actually want this, or are you just trying to not upset me? Like, would you stand up to this situation if I needed you to, or am I going to have to do it?" Right? And so, like, you want to put your foot down and be a masculine man and, you know, set the boundaries and lead the relationship while still being kind.

Nicole: And so, a lot of those people-pleaser guys too, they do worry about like, "Well, I'm a nice person," and things like that. And you can still be kind and have boundaries and make the decisions and make somebody feel included in those. Right? And it's more kind to have boundaries because when you don't, you have resentment. And resentment is mean, you know what I mean? It's a secret kind of mean. It's like, you know, if you really want to hurt someone's feelings, right? You really want to disturb someone, you let them know that what you're saying at the surface level is not that you actually are harboring resentment or actually disagree with them or actually have a different thing going on in your head than what you have been projecting. That's the biggest betrayal. Right? Because you're like, "You were agreeing, you were just being nice to me, but you really hated me inside." Like, right? That, you know, that will get someone more than anything. They trust you. Right? So that's why that's actually not nice.

John: Right. Exactly. It's way more kind to have boundaries because you're real, you're authentic. Right? Well, I don't know who said it. It's some sort of quote, but having boundaries is actually teaching somebody how to love you. Yes. And a lot of people think it's the opposite. A lot of people think it's like, "I'm putting restrictions on this person, and I'm supposed to love them unconditionally, and that doesn't feel like unconditional." But it is because boundaries should be kind. Right? When they're being laid out, like, it's not like, "Don't do this." Right? Like, if you actually know what boundaries are, it's, you know, "If you continue to do this, which you can do, it's your choice, I will do this." Yeah.

Nicole: Boundaries are more like, "That's not for me." Right? Like, which is not mean. Right? It's like, "That's not for me." It's not telling you what to do. It's, "That's not for me." Right? You know what I mean? As a man, as a leader, though, you do have to do some telling of what to do. Right? You have to be in charge. You have to. But that's not the same as the boundary part of it. Like, the leading is saying, "This is the direction we're going." Right? But also, you lead by example. You don't just order people around and say, "You do this, do that." Right? Maybe there's a time where that needs to be done because it's a critical situation, things need to be done. But you cannot operate like that 100% of the time. Right? Because you're going to lose real quickly the respect that you have because people look at you and be like, "Why are you telling me what to do, but you're not doing things right?" You know, that's not the way to do it. But I think also, you know, with what you said, because a lot of guys are like, "Well, why does a woman try to take..."

John: Control, right? Because you said that she has to build TR, and the answer is because a woman cannot just allow herself to be dominated by a man. She has to try and dominate him because he has to win, and if he does, the reason why, even though it might seem crazy, like why doesn't she just submit to me, or why doesn't she just, you know, be feminine or whatever, the reason why is because if she feels like she could beat him, that she could dominate him, it's the same thing as if she did. Because it's like we talked about in another episode, if you have a kid and you let them win, now you know, you let them win. She has to feel like this man is actually stronger than her, that this man actually is more capable and is someone who she should follow and lead. And if she doesn't feel that way, then she really shouldn't be in the relationship with them.

Nicole: She needs to think about that. It's like, can you respect this man enough to say, yeah, he's more capable than me? If you can't say that, and those words are hard for you, know that comes choking out of many women's mouths. Like, how can you even say that? But how, why would you follow someone who you don't feel like is more capable than you? And if that's not the case, then hey, then maybe you're delusional. That could be one option, or maybe that really is not the case, and this is not the guy for you. Or maybe you got to give him a chance. And I mean, you still have to fight him. That's the hard part of it. But like, to know that it has to be a battle that can be won. But yeah, a woman has to fight for it because she has to really feel that the man is who he says he is. She's testing you. You have to show her, not just say the words. She's testing his core to see, is he really what he says he is? If she just gave it up, it wouldn't be the same.

John: So, it will, and when you transition, if you're trying to turn it around, that's where the fight is going to be the strongest. Definitely going to test you because it's like, if you just bought a new business, right? You bought a restaurant. It's new ownership. You come in, and you're like, I'm the boss now. The cook, the servers, all of them, you think they're just going to be like? They're going to test the hell out of you. That's what they're going to do. They're going to see, are you really, you know, they're not going to just accept new management. You know what I mean? They've been working for the who is this guy now, right? Like, you're going to have to prove yourself because you haven't been there. You haven't been through all the times that they have been. You don't know what it's like at rush hour and busy at dinner time or whatever. And it's the same thing. It's like she's been doing all this stuff, especially if she's been in charge of finances and all that stuff. And so, especially if you're more passive, which these men typically are, you are going to be tested more to make sure that you're not just going to be passive.

Nicole: Yeah, and it's not to be mean and like play games. It's so that she can feel safe to be feminine and then trust you to be masculine. And then another one that you have to do, I guess I don't know if we're doing a step-by-step order, but these are the things, right? Is you, before she's going to trust you in taking care of her, you need to take care of yourself. So that means, and it might switch back, right? If she's being feminine and taking care of you, but right now, like a lot of women that are in the masculine are taking care of a man like he's a child. You know, it can look the same. She could be doing your laundry because you're a child who can't handle it yourself, or she could be doing it because she's doing a support role as your wife, supporting you being the man in the house and bringing the bacon. They can look the same, but they're for different reasons.

John: And so, I would say that one of the big steps for a man is to start cleaning up after yourself, picking up after yourself, taking care of things that need to be taken care of around the house without being told. Do the things that you would do if you were living on your own. Like, I'm not saying ignore your family and your spouse, but like you said, you wouldn't just, I mean, I guess some guys might, but most guys don't live in a huge pigsty. They just leave all their trash everywhere. They live by themselves because no one's there to pick it up. They have to do their own laundry or figure it out. So yeah, treat it like if you were living on your own and doing all the things that you would need to do to clean up after yourself and take care of yourself. Because how weird would it be if you had a job, right? And you're the manager, right? And you are getting all the stuff done, making sure people have their time sheets in, you know, getting the dishes done, whatever, you know, like all the work that needs to be done around the business, right? Okay, and you got that all running right, and then suddenly one of your employees gets promoted to boss and says, okay, now I'm in charge, but he hasn't started doing all the stuff that you're doing. He's not taking care of all the things, but now you're supposed to listen to him, and he's supposed to know, but he doesn't even know how to run the system. He hasn't even done it. He can't even take care of himself, right? You know, that's why he faces resistance. If you just suddenly watch a podcast episode and you're like, okay, yeah, I need to be the man, and now I'm the man, and it's like, well, she still got the checkbook. She's still paying the bills. She's still doing all the household chores, you know, and taking care of herself and you, and cooking the dinners or whatever it is, or managing the logistics of when you're going on vacation and the family planning and all of those things. Which again, it doesn't mean that she can't do any of those things in a different role for you, but if she's the one who's the manager, then you step up because you watch some podcast episode now, and you're like, I got to be the man, and now you say, trust me, I'm in charge. No one would trust you. You got to prove it.

Nicole: Yeah, right. You know what I'm saying? So, you got to start taking responsibility for yourself first. But when she sees that you handle your life correctly, then she might start to say, oh, he could, you know, and you take the little things off of her shoulders because she is working.

John: You know, if the relationship is reversed like that, she's the boss, she's working, the boss being the manager. So, you take some of the stuff so she doesn't have to worry about this. "Oh, let me handle this for you. Let me handle this. I'll handle this." You don't ask her; you just take these things off her shoulder, right? So that she doesn't have to do those, and then pretty soon, she's like, "Oh wow, my burden's lighter." And instead of you fighting with her for the power of who's the man in the relationship, she starts to say, "Wow, I like it like this where I'm having to do less stuff. I have to worry about less stuff," gladly giving you more things.

Nicole: Yeah, that makes sense. Any other things that you think guys need to do?

John: I think you hit on a lot of them. I mean, I think that's the main thing. It goes without being said at that point if you start stepping up because you don't need to have a conversation, and especially early on. If you're thinking this, do not have a conversation. Do not sit her down and be like, "Look, we're going to need to change things around here. I'm the man, and you're going to respect me as the man, and I'm going to be the masculine, the leader of this house." Well, because that's even worse if you don't follow through. You know what I mean? Like, if you said all that and then you don't follow through, now she really doesn't respect you. Might as well, the whole thing's just done at that point. You know, if you sit there and say that and then you don't do, she would not trust you to try again.

Nicole: Yeah, if you just do it right, you start taking these things, even if you slip back on a little things since you didn't have that full-blown conversation, it's not going to be held against you.

John: Right, and it's not going to make her afraid as much as if you're like, "Hey, I'm going to do this," and then you don't do it. And then also, you won't beat yourself up if you make a mistake because you've been living this passive, people-pleasing way for so long. There's going to be a mistake.

Nicole: Of course.

John: And so, you know, I get wanting to be like, "Hey, I'm going to do this now," and say that to yourself if that helps you motivate yourself, but don't, like you said, don't sit her down and be like, "Hey, this is how it's going to be," because if you mess that up, she's probably not going to trust you at all at that point. And then she's going to be back to her masculine, and then y'all are in the same exact position, and she's not really going to have the buy-in. Even if that conversation goes well, she's going to be like, "Sure, yeah, you're in charge. Yeah, sure," because it's words. But if you take the actions first, so you've garnered the trust, the proof.

Nicole: Yeah.

John: And if I had a coaching client, and he's resistant to it, but he just actually bought a restaurant, right? And he was like, "God, yeah, all the staff there, he has all these issues with staff." And I was like, "Dude, you need to go work in the kitchen. You need to go work as a server. You need to go work as a cook." He's like, "I don't have time. I don't really want to." I'm like, "That's the only way you're going to earn their respect. They got to see you busting your ass, and that's the only way he'll know what's going on too. It's just good advice in general that he should be in there with them, but they got to see you doing their job better than they're doing their job, and then they will respect you and listen to what you have to say. It doesn't matter if you have the title, if you have the owner, if you can fire them, none of that matters."

Nicole: Right.

John: "They got to see you doing the job, and then if they see that you're outperforming them, that's going to make them step up. It's going to make them respect you. It's going to make you the actual leader, not just the leader by decree. And it's the same thing in a relationship. As a man, you start stepping up, having a higher standard for yourself, and outperforming the things that she is doing to show that you can do a better job of it. Now she's going to respect you. Now she's going to say, 'Okay, yeah. Now it's like, okay, I get it.' But then you can have that conversation. Then you can say, 'Look, we need to change things around here,' and now she's going to be receptive to that because she's already seeing what you're doing."

Nicole: Right.

John: "And she knows that she can relax into the feminine side, and you're taking stress off of her, and you're actually stepping up and doing the things and taking the responsibility and being the man. So, she's seen it. She has proof. It's easier to trust you rather than just the words. And then now that you're saying it, now she will even more believe what you're saying because you've already laid that groundwork of, 'See, here, I already did it,' sort of thing."

Nicole: If that makes sense.

John: "And notice none of this, you know, 'See, I reformed my ways,' did not involve having to be the sole breadwinner. And like, I think that's still ideal, but you can change the dynamic without that. Ideally, it does, and you do work towards that where you are the sole breadwinner, and she doesn't have to work. But even in that circumstance, you can still do these things which changes the dynamic, and she's going to be a lot more receptive to that."

Nicole: So true.

John: "So, I think those are the things really that you can do as a man to flip it around. What about as a woman? How does a woman, because you know, a lot of guys want to flip the dynamic, but a lot of women are, you know, women have messaged us, have messaged me when I was doing coaching for guys and had to watch videos and be like, 'I want my husband to step up. I want him to start being masculine. I want him to start being the man. How do I even do that without emasculating him by telling him to do it?' Which is emasculating, right? Like, well, yeah, and that's still being bossy."

Nicole: "And you know, I would say the first thing is, and I say this because it's something that she can control, and she can do regardless of what he's doing, regardless of if he started doing what he needs to do, is to stop protecting yourself, stop being so harsh."

John: What causes you to lash out at him and act more masculine, degrading him if that's what you're doing? A lot of women do that. They come from a vulnerable place if you have a problem rather than a masculine, guarded, defensive place, which is hard to do.

Nicole: Yeah, especially because women get told, "Oh, you need to fend for yourself, protect yourself, and do all this." That's how we're taught growing up. To some degree, it is a good thing when women are on their own because then they aren't taken advantage of. But the second you're in a committed relationship, you really need to let that go, but definitely if you're married. That has to change. You have to go from that mindset to being vulnerable. If any younger women are watching this, try to be as vulnerable as you can while still protecting yourself. That's really where a lot of women start creating problems and become more masculine and controlling, by the way they handle conflict. I have done this, and it's not easy to make the switch. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that it's easy to go from being defensive to being vulnerable because being defensive makes you feel stronger. You're just attacking somebody else because you feel like you're being attacked. But really, if you're vulnerable, it puts everybody in a softer place where you can actually connect and fix the problem.

John: And also take accountability for what you're doing because that will also help you be vulnerable. If you're like, "I messed up," or "I'm sorry that I said this to you when we were arguing," and apologize for the things you did wrong, it doesn't make you a bad person. But if you continue to do it, you do look more like a bad person. The best way to keep from going down the spiral of just lashing out at people is to apologize.

Nicole: Yeah, because also when someone accepts your apology, and even if they don't, they're just like, "Thank you for apologizing," that makes you feel better because you did the right thing. That's one of the number one complaints men have, that women never apologize. You've seen that diagram with the Indian guy, how men apologize, "I'm sorry," and like, "Apologize NOP, you're sorry." It went viral, right? It doesn't mean it's 100% true, but if you start acting more vulnerable and sincerely apologize for things, you're gonna definitely cause some stirring in that man. He's gonna be like, "Wow." It's gonna make an impact for sure.

John: Right, so that's the first thing for sure. It doesn't depend on what the guy's doing at that point. The first thing that you can do, that you should do anyway, is come from a vulnerable place rather than a masculine, defensive place. Being defensive is masculine. It's like attacking because you feel like someone attacked you by saying something about you. Instead of being like, "Oh yeah, maybe I did do that," you just go to attack. But really, it doesn't matter who did what. You have to accept and validate what they're saying, and they should be doing the same for you. But even if they don't, it's not about what they're doing back; it's about doing the right thing.

Nicole: And it's just good psychology in general. As a woman, you really want to try and trigger a man's protection response. I did the wrong thing last week, but luckily, I did it so badly that I made myself see the reality of what I'm telling you. I'm not saying this as a woman who's never messed up. That's the wrong way to be, and it just keeps you in this cycle of being defensive and not really fixing anything. It's hard, but it's the right thing to do.

John: And as a woman, do you see how you trigger my protection instinct as a man when you're soft and vulnerable?

Nicole: Well, now I do. But it's like, I can't control myself. It's like I'm under your power when you do this. A lot of women haven't seen that. Even on some of our episodes, women are like, "I did this, and he just said figure it out yourself or I don't care." I'm not saying that's the majority, but there are some men who, if you are vulnerable, still don't care. But a lot of men will. Women have pushed a man to be submissive and people-pleasing by being so aggressive and defensive that she doesn't think he will now act that way. But you haven't given him an opportunity to. There's a flip side to it too. We say a lot of times to men, when you start validating a woman's emotions, many times she reacts with rage because now she's able to get out the stuff. She has all this built-up hurt and resentment. It sucks that it's happening to you at that point when you're doing the right thing, but you have to persist through it. Give her a little bit of tolerance in this situation here.

John: To rebuild that trust, she'll come out the other end, and that'll be done right there. There's a flip side on the female side where, hey, if you've been yelling at a guy, calling him names, treating him badly, disrespecting him, and then now you start acting vulnerable, yeah, he might have a little bit of a reaction like, "Fuck you then." Like, you know, he might have a little bit of that like, "Oh, I finally get a chance to be pissed, now I'm actually pissed." There might be some of that, honestly. But, you know, I know it's probably a really hard thing to do, but if you're just dejected and walk away and say, "I'm sorry I bothered you," I bet that even the man that's not the best, how does someone not respond to that? There's something wrong with them, you know what I mean? Like, you're going to see. But if you persist and you continue to be vulnerable, because he's got a lot of hurt, you're going to be healing that hurt, and then he's going to respond to that.

Nicole: So, it can be the case that you get a negative reaction when you've treated someone poorly and then you start treating them right. And you'll notice this with anyone in your life. There's a little bit of a reaction that comes from that because they're now a little bit free to actually have their emotions. Both men and women who are in this situation have to realize that, I think, if you're doing this, if you're trying to flip, you have to focus on yourself and not what the other person's doing because it can't be about them. Like, you have to continue to try to do this, like we said in one of the other episodes, for at least three months, right? Minimum. You have to give it time and you have to do it no matter what he does or no matter what she does. Yes, because it is going to be hard in the beginning, and it has to be about you. Real change comes from what you're going to do about your... Yes, your spouse can bring it up to you and help you see some of this stuff, but really, no matter what they do, it's on you to do it.

John: Stay in your lane, because it's influence versus control, right? You cannot control your partner, no matter how right you are and how wrong they are. A person will not be controlled; they will always fight being controlled, but they can be influenced. So, if your outcome is to change their behavior, then you're... If your outcome is to influence them, which sounds like the same thing, it sounds like I'm getting off on a technicality, but it's not the same thing. Because when you say, "My objective, the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing, is to change someone else's behavior," that is control. And that means that if their behavior does not change, then you have failed. Whereas when you say, "My objective is to do the right thing and influence their behavior by doing it," even if their behavior doesn't change, you haven't failed. You're still doing the right thing. That's what you set out to do. Otherwise, it's conditional. It's like you're only doing it to get something out of someone else. That doesn't seem genuine, authentic, and you're not going to get it out of them because they can sense that. Every time you do that, people sense it. They know you're just doing this so that they'll change their behavior. It's not because you actually want to change your behavior, and they can sense it.

Nicole: Well, and so that first thing too will also help you get to being more feminine, right? Like being vulnerable and not yelling or defensive or name-calling is a more feminine way. It's a more soft way to view it, but it's also like, I don't want to say it's soft because being vulnerable, like we talked about, is a very powerful thing to do. A lot of people don't do it because it's so hard. There is great strength in being vulnerable. So, I'm not saying like soft as in you're weak and like this, you're just turning into a weak little "help me," but like a man does need to be needed. So, that's why you're saying that he should respond eventually with comforting you and validating your emotions and things like that when you come from a vulnerable place.

John: And, like I said, real quick on that before we move on, it's just good psychology. "How to Win Friends and Influence People," probably you remember the part of the book where he had the little dog in the park, and the police officer told him, "Hey, you got to have this dog on a leash." Well, no, the first time, he got a warning, right? And the police officer said, "Next time I see you, you're going to get arrested or you're going to get a fine or whatever." And then the very next week, he had the dog off the leash again, and the same Mounted Police Officer, right? He runs into him, and before the police officer can say anything, he says, "You caught me red-handed." He's like, "I told you last week that I have to have my dog on the leash, or I'm going to get in trouble, and I didn't listen to you, and it's totally my fault. I have no excuse." And then the police officer is like, "Well, son, you're being a little hard on yourself there. It's not that big of a deal." "No, no, sir, I messed up. I fully... You told me, and I didn't listen, and I accept the full responsibility." And then he's like, "Well, you know, you're just a boy, and you know, boys do things, and you know, just maybe I'll tell you what, why don't you just... I'll just turn my head over here, and you..." And he gave him the mercy and the kindness. But it's just good psychology. When you defend yourself, it goes for man and woman, the other person wants to move in to press it, to say, "No, you did do this." But when you say, "Nope, you got me. I did it," then they'll try to defend you. Then they're trying to say, "Oh yeah, no, you're not that bad. It's not that serious." Like, "No, it's, you know, but right." So, there you go.

Nicole: So, if your husband comes to you and he's trying to take all these things away from you, the responsibilities, so that you don't have to deal with them and he can man up and handle them, you need to let him do that, even if it's scary. And this came from the "Surrendered Wife" book because, you know, I can't speak from experience because you've always just handled the...

Nicole: I can see where women who have been handling all these things now giving them to this man who hasn't been doing any of them, right? And now he's asking for it. You want to be like, "No, well, you haven't done it." Like you said, you haven't shown me you did any of these things. And even though your fear is that they won't get done, or the bills won't get paid, and whatever will happen as a result from that, you have to let him fail. If he's going to fail, you have to let him do it, even though it does involve you. He shouldn't be failing much after the first failure, right? He should get it together after that. Now, if it's been like three months, like I said, and he can't pay the bills on time, anytime, I can see where you'd be a little bit concerned about that. Your lights get shut off every single month because he's late with it. But like I said, I don't think that's going to actually happen. Yeah, and based on the surrendered book and things like that, even if it happens one time, it usually doesn't happen more than once. But you do have to relinquish that, and even though in the beginning, you probably still want to control it, and you still have this fear that you're not doing it, so how is he going to know what to do, but you have to let that go. You have to trust him, and you have to let him fail if he's going to fail. And that seems like it's easier said than done. I understand that, but at the same time, then it's not your stress to even stress about. Like, you will still stress about it because you went from doing it to now you're not, and you just gave it to somebody who hasn't been doing it for years, right? But eventually, he will figure it out, and you won't even have to think about it. And then you'll be like, "Oh, it feels so nice to not have to do these things anymore." Yeah, so, and that is, you have to let him do it, and you have to let him fail. And even like what you said before, sometimes he's to make decisions. If you guys have gotten to the point where he is the leader now, and you're more feminine, he is going to make decisions that aren't always the best decisions. And that's hard, right? You know, for us women, because sometimes, you know, we think about things in different ways than men do, and we think that we have a better way, and sometimes we do have a better way. But at the same time, if he's taking the responsibility, then he's going to take the consequences. And like, if he has a situation where everybody has consequences, I'm sure he's going to be doing better next time because he not only gave himself consequences, he gave people who he was in charge of consequences, right?

John: Exactly. So again, you have to kind of let go of the things that you were in control of before and let go of those fears. And even if they pop up, and even if you do something wrong where you're like, say something like, "Oh, you should have done it this way," or you know, something like that, that might upset him, you should apologize. And you know, like you said, get ahead of it. Apologize before he's defensive about it or resentful or any of those things. Just get ahead of the situation and apologize because, you know, this is his responsibility now. You gave it to him. You want to have this dynamic switch. You guys are both working on it, so you have to let him fully do it. And I understand where that's scary, and it's hard to let go of the control, right? Because a lot of women are controlling. It kind of goes back to having to take care of themselves when they don't have somebody to take care of them, you know? And so, I can see their point of the fear of letting that go. But at the same time, if you believe in your husband and you trust him, and you guys are both working on shifting the dynamic, and he is going to act like the masculine man that he should, and you're going to act like the feminine woman that you should be too, then you have to do these things. And they might be hard at first, but it does get easier. Yeah, and well, women are survivors. That's why, right? Because women have a survivor instinct more so than men. Women survive. They figured out how to survive. That's why it's like the control is there. It's not because women like to be controlling. It's because inside of them, they have the survival instinct, and they're like, "Well, if someone else is going to do it, I have to do it." Whereas men will stand by and not do anything, you know, because they don't have that same instinct. But, you know, to go on what you're saying about giving up that stuff, a beaten-down man has to build his confidence back up to see that he can accomplish things and lead, right? And so, as a woman, you give him the bills, and he messes it up, right? But then, he doesn't bail him out, and he has to figure it out. And now he's like, "Oh yeah, got this. I can handle this," right? It's a small thing, but now he's building up his confidence because it's been beaten down. And then he'll take on more too because he has more confidence, right? But you got to give him the things so that you have to show that you have confidence in him, which will inspire him to start to be confident in himself. And then he'll start taking things on and actually show, you know, he should step up to that. And in a lot of, when you know, we've talked about this before, but a lot of men that women don't trust to do simple things like pay the bills, some of those guys are big shots at work where everybody respects them, and they're the boss. And it's like, you kind of got to look at it and be like, "Okay, is it that I really can't trust this guy that he's incompetent, or is it that I'm treating him that way, and he's acting that way because I'm letting him get away with being incompetent around the house?" Whereas when he goes to his work, he's not incompetent. He handles all the stuff, right? That's not the case for all men, but especially if he performs well at his job, then you know that. Or if he does something financial at his job, he obviously can handle the finances, right? He might act like he can't, right? But that's because you conditioned him, as the woman doing all the things, for him to not have to do the things. Yeah, and it's the same thing, just asking questions of like, he's used to deferring, "What should we do? Where should we? What should we?" You know, those are the simple ones, but like, "What should we do, and how should we handle it?" Like, you ask him that question, right? Start asking him, or like, "Whatever you think." Yeah, "Whatever you think," or "What should we do?" Like, "I trust your judgment." So then he has to come up with the plan, right? So yeah, and I think that's like the two main things. I mean, obviously, doing other things that...

Speaker 1: Help you feel like you can get into your feminine, like picking up hobbies that make you feel feminine. Things like that will help, but those two are the main internal things that women need to do if they're trying to go from masculine to feminine and allowing their husband to go from feminine to masculine. So, I would say focus on those two the most, but then add in the things that make you feel feminine, like taking a bath at night, painting, and baking, or whatever hobby that makes you feel feminine. Try to wear some dresses that you like, or things like that, or develop a whole different style if that's what you feel would help you as well. Whatever is going to make you feel like a softer, more feminine version of yourself.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I would add to encourage his masculine traits, right? Like the big strong man thing. Like, "Oh, I really liked it when you did this, when you made this decision, when you told me where we're going to go, or like you took charge of this thing." Because then it's like you're feeding the ego, right? Especially if you do it with a little sexual innuendo, where it's like, "Okay, she's attracted to this." You're indicating that because you are attracted to it. So, it's like you're giving him the encouragement to step up and start acting like, because some men are kind of timid and weak. Some men are like, "Oh yeah, I love for this to happen because I want it to be the case." But other men are a little more timid and weak, and they don't even know what they think they're a rabbit, but they're a lion. So, they need to, you got to get the lion, gives him more of the confidence, start feeding him some meat, you know, make him get the lion out of him. Get him to like roar, see if you can get him to do it. But you can do it by encouraging him, by praising those masculine traits. And be the strong woman, you're capable, you can take care of yourself, but be the good, yeah, be the little weak princess, you know, the damsel in distress a little bit, just even though you can open up the pickle jar, even though you can handle it, just act like that a little bit so that he can step up, and then you will actually feel pampered by it and feel good about yourself because even though you could do it, it feels nice to be taken care of.

Speaker 1: That's true. That is definitely a good thing to add.

Speaker 2: Alright, I think we nailed it.

Speaker 1: I was going to say the same thing. So, for this week, obviously, I messed up, if you didn't tell by the whole part of the conversation. I was very much stuck in a defensive, guarded place to the point where John and I had a conversation, and I was just like literally ready to blow the whole thing up. I also have a tendency to self-sabotage as well. So, I was doing a little bit of that. But, like I said, John and I had a long conversation, and just some of the things that you said, and it probably wasn't even the things that you thought were really getting through to me, got through to me in a different way. And I just realized that I was just living from a place of fear, and then attacking you every time I felt like I was being criticized. And I just felt constantly criticized, and then so I was like, that just feeds into the self-sabotage thing too. So, it's like if I'm just being criticized, then what am I even doing? Might as well just blow the whole thing up. But I did a lot of self-reflection and realized that that's not the way to operate, obviously, and realized why I was operating that way and why that isn't the way that I should be operating. And then I apologized to you profusely because I was definitely not handling the situation well at all. And I've watched our episodes that have been coming out recently, and I'm like, I didn't do anything that I'm talking about in this episode. I wasn't vulnerable, I wasn't doing any of the things that I was supposed to be doing. So, it just goes back to like, we're also still figuring this out, and you're going to make mistakes, and things are going to happen, and there won't be any mistakes though like the mistakes I made last week. But it's a work in progress thing. It's not something that you're just going to have and then you're never going to make a mistake ever again. And so, in your defense, it's not like I never thought that any of the things that you're doing was malicious. It's, you know, you had a certain way of being that protected you well when you had to protect yourself, and it's hard to let go of that thing, especially, you know, even when you're in a safe environment when you're used to protecting yourself, that becomes your default, and that it becomes hard to, right. So, it's not a malicious thing, it's just an awareness. Awareness is really, I think that's why women have a hard time too, right? We're used to protecting ourselves when it's just us, and then even if you're in a safe place, you still want to protect yourself because that's just, you know, that you're going to do it right. You don't know always if the other, even though if you know that they're going to treat you the right way, it's like your fear comes in, and your fear is like, "Just do it yourself," right. Like, but that's not a way to be, and that's also not vulnerable. That's not really being vulnerable, right. And so, you know, you have to kind of, especially if you've been more in your masculine, or you've been like, "Well, I've had to take care of myself for who knows how long, and if I'm not going to do it, who's going to do it?" It's like your husband has been doing it, you just choose to like use one bad time to paint the picture in a bad way rather than noticing all the ways that he supported you. Yeah, and so, yeah, it, that's why I can kind of relate to the mistakes that women make, you know, when they get stuck in that sort of, "I need to defend myself," and even when you don't, it's just like sometimes you think you're doing good, and you think that you're not doing that, but you are doing it, and that it's really even not that important when you think about it. Like, you have protected yourself before, what do you need to protect yourself from your husband who loves you, who's not trying to hurt you as well? Like you said, like, he's not trying to be malicious, but your fear that you're harboring, which is why you're protecting yourself, is painting it so you do think he's trying to hurt you, right, because you're so afraid that, well, what if he changes and he is trying to hurt me? That thing that wouldn't even actually happen, you're allowing to paint the picture completely different than it's actually happening. And so, I realized I was.

John: Doing that a lot, and I have been doing it probably my whole life. It's like this moment was like, "Yeah, you are. You're doing that." And I think it's too because I felt like people were critical of me from the very beginning, and then I was critical of myself, so I felt like I had to be critical of other people.

Nicole: Yeah, it was a lot of things. And like, you didn't even tell me a lot of these things. Like, some of them you did, obviously, you could see, but it was like some of the other things that you said that made me realize it myself. And it's really, that's why it's important to stay in your own lanes, like we talked about in this episode. Because no matter what you said, if I hadn't realized it, and I hadn't had this epiphany, it still wouldn't have... Like, even though you were saying the right things, and I understand what you were saying, and it made sense, if it didn't click inside of me, I saw it in my own light, it would have been the same rodeo all over again.

John: Well, and it's kind of like a hedgehog, right? Like a hedgehog defends itself. Maybe hedgehog's not the best example, or porcupine. It's just funny because you always have your little analogies. It's like, if you're a hedgehog, like when a hedgehog, if it rolls into a ball and it's spiky, right? It's just defending itself, but it hurts other people by defending itself, right? And it doesn't realize that it has spikes.

Nicole: Right, you know what I mean? That's what it's just trying to protect. So it's like the protecting yourself, even that, you know, it's like, like you said, "Why do I need to protect myself from my husband?" Right?

John: Yeah, because, and part of the answer is, you don't, obviously. But if you do do it, then you're going to hurt the people around you by protecting yourself because you can't help but hurt people when you protect yourself.

Nicole: Well, the hedgehog thing is good, actually, because when a hedgehog curls up into a ball, it can't see if it's its partner or an actual intruder. You know, it's just poking everybody.

John: Exactly.

Nicole: So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But yeah, but it... I mean, I am always proud of you, but it takes a lot to say what you said today on the... You know, well, like I said, to women, own up to your things. Like, yeah, people also can't hold them against you if you've already owned up to them. And you know, not that your husband would or anything like that, but if that's what you're afraid of, if you're afraid of your husband, who still is dealing with his own stuff, holding things against you, if you just own up to it, he can't even hold it against you.

John: Yeah, yeah. And that's one of the reasons why this podcast is awesome because I had my own, uh, back, I don't know, maybe 10 or 15 episodes ago, where I was constantly watching episodes and then being like, "Damn it. Like, gosh, I just... I said what to do, and then what do I do? The opposite of what I said to do." So it's like my own too. But, you know, we grow and learn, and it's good that it holds us accountable, having this conversation because we know that every week we got to say what's going on, right? And some weeks we get lucky, and there is nothing, but some weeks there's catastrophe, like I did. But I will say, before we end it, I want to end it on this, actually, the quote that I might mess up saying it word for word, but that I talked about was in the book that Sophia and I are reading, that wisdom without action is useless.

Nicole: Yeah, like, and even if you're not perfect, like, people will know if you're trying. Right? And so, so the second you actually apply it, or like, even if you apply part of it or something, you take something and make some sort of change, you're going to feel better, you're going to be making progress, and that's also why we're here, right? Like, exactly. A lot of times, you do have to mess up big on your own to learn the lesson, but sometimes you can listen to something or read something and be like, "Oh, I do this. So if I make this change, then it'll help with this." And if you actually apply it, sometimes you don't even have to deal with the consequences of your actions.

John: So yeah, yeah. I just wanted to throw that out. Said we've given you wisdom, and now your action is to go ahead and leave a review on iTunes.

Nicole: That's right. That isn't banana fingers. I mean, we appreciate banana fingers, but I guess it's Apple Podcast or Spotify or YouTube even. I mean, YouTube doesn't really have a review system, but...

John: That's true. Follow us, subscribe, like, and subscribe exactly. Yeah, leave us, uh, you know, and if you've got a question, something for us to answer...

Nicole: Yeah, uh, you can email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com, and we'll answer your question. Or if you're in the San Diego area and you'd like to come on the show and have us dissect your relationship live, well, it'll be live for us, but it'll be recorded. But, uh, yeah, let us know. Email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com.

John: Yeah, yeah. We'll see you next time. [Music]