John [00:00:00]: If you just have fun, then it doesn't matter what the ages are.

Nicole [00:00:03]: But if you're looking for actual relationship and you're going to these extremes, you can't relate to each other in a way that's going to harbor the closest amount of intimacy. I just think it's weird on both sides that older people would seek out these younger people. It just seems kind of taking advantage.

John [00:00:19]: I don't like to take it advantage, though, that. Because that's like, just when people make willing choices as adults, they're never taken advantage of. It's just a victim mindset to say the words taking advantage. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:53]: You did it. Third time's the charm. They were like, what? They don't know. It's okay.

John [00:00:59]: So let's see, what do we have for this week?

Nicole [00:01:03]: We have age gap. Okay, so age gaps. Yeah, I know you're pro age gap.

John [00:01:09]: Of course I'm pro age gap. No, but I mean, I think there's. This is always a debated thing, right. Especially the whole Leonardo DiCaprio thing where, you know, he's always dating younger women. But a lot of women get upset by guys dating younger women sometimes. There's some nasty things that are said about that. But I figured we'd. We'd talk about. About this. Like, is there actually a problem with the age gap? Is it actually a good thing? Right.

Nicole [00:01:38]: So, yeah, I think it's complicated.

John [00:01:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:41]: Because I think using Leonardo DiCaprio is not a good example because there is something wrong with his choice. Right. Because it's not about the person. It's about them being a certain age and looking a certain way. And I think that's problematic. Like, obviously, if they're con, the women are consenting to be in that relationship. That's on them. But I think even calling it a relationship is not actually what it is. Okay, so, like, it's an agreement.

John [00:02:17]: So let's say it's not a relationship. So let's say that he wants to date or whatever, younger women, and he has a specific age range that he likes. That's his preference. That's what he wants to do. As long as they are okay with that. What's the. What does it matter?

Nicole [00:02:35]: I think that personally, I think when you get to, like, a certain age gap, Number it is weird and I'm not going to sugarcoat that. I think it is weird. Like, I think that probably the biggest age gap that I think is acceptable is probably 15 years. Okay, 15, because at that point that's a whole ass teenager in between. Okay, your, your two places where you've been at. And so like from a woman's perspective.

John [00:03:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:13]: And because that's what you're talking about. Like, women typically say negative things about this and I think men think that it's a jealousy thing. But I think honestly it's more from a place of like, how can you even really relate and be compatible to somebody 20 years in between? Like, we're at, I think, like, that's why I say 15, because I think if it was even maybe at 15 or more.

John [00:03:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:41]: Then I would not be able to relate to you. And I think that would be detrimental to having an actual relationship. Like, yeah, I think that the people who are in relationships where the gap is huge, it is lacking in compatibility in some way because you just aren't on the same, like, you weren't, you didn't have the same sort of experiences. Like you were born in the 80s, I was born in the 90s. So there is still some experiences, like a good amount of experiences that we both share even though we are 11 years apart. But I feel like when you get too far past that, like that range, then there, it's, it's kind of ridiculous to act like that there isn't something lacking in that relationship, that it is for some other sort of reason, because that is the reality of it. Like there will be, no matter what anybody says, a lack of relating to each other in a way that, like, you went through the same experiences and that you, you know, kind of grew up in similar ish ways that I feel like is sort of necessary for some of the closeness and connectivity that people experience in a romantic relationship.

John [00:04:56]: I, I, I, I, I agree to a degree. I think, you know, there's like some women who, who say that also that read romance novels about an alien, you know, so look, that's not me, but.

Nicole [00:05:11]: I don't, I'm not reading the Alien.

John [00:05:12]: I'm just saying there's some, there's some contradiction. Not you, but, but other women say the same thing and then they are beyond the hypocritical. That's right.

Nicole [00:05:21]: Yeah.

John [00:05:21]: So, but what I would say is that it's more of, not that there's a, a definite age gap number, but that that number changes with age. So for example, if you are 20 years old. Right. You probably shouldn't be dating a 15 year old. Correct. No matter who you are. That's probably inappropriate. Right? We would say, I mean aside from the legal aspects of it. I'm just saying from the age perspective.

Nicole [00:05:51]: Or some 20 year olds date 15 year olds. Typically 20 year old dudes.

John [00:05:56]: Yeah, that's 15 year old girls. That's, that's, we would say that's typically not good.

Nicole [00:06:01]: There's not usually ever a 20 year old woman dating a 15 year old boy. But I mean there are some teachers that's.

John [00:06:07]: Yeah, there's some teacher things different. But that's, that's not okay.

Nicole [00:06:12]: That's a different place where we're at.

John [00:06:13]: But even if you just took like at a minor, let's say an 18 year old, just to make it on the legal side, probably shouldn't be dating a 14 year old. It's probably too big of a gap in that case just because of, Whereas as you get older, that gap from 30 to 20 at 10 years is not that big of a deal. A 30 year old dating a 20 year old. But for example, a 50 year old man could date a 30 year old woman. That's a 20 year gap. Right. You know, you go up to like 70 and the gap might be 25 years. Right. That, that's.

Nicole [00:06:52]: I still wouldn't even as a 30 year old woman, like not 30, but in my 30s, I would not even encourage a 30 year old woman to date a 50 year old man unless she was closer to mid 30s.

John [00:07:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:06]: Or late 30s. Because I do still think, like I said, that there's still going to be experiences that you're not going to relate to. Like that 30 year old is still probably because I'm 30. Like we're still probably, you know, kind of trying to enjoy our, our youth that we have. Not like, I'm not talking about like going out and doing crazy things, but like I love a good Spongebob reference. You probably haven't even watched Spongebob.

John [00:07:34]: No, I don't.

Nicole [00:07:35]: A 50 year old definitely hasn't watched Spongebob, but you don't need it. I'm not saying that your, your relationship should be based on spongebob, but I'm saying that like little things like that, that like people do kind of value will be missing and it might even be bigger things. I'm just using that as like a funny example. But because now there are plenty of things that like I just said, you don't know spongebob reference. And that's fine, but I feel like the older you get, the more kind of bigger things could be misaligned. And that's why like I'm not saying that if a 30 year old person met a 50 year old and they're like actually in love and that's the person they're going to be with. Sure, that's different but I do think that it's weird when like 40 year old men want to get with 18 year olds. That's weird to me.

John [00:08:28]: Yeah, I mean at that, I think at that level, like I said, that's where the gap becomes large enough where, where it becomes more of an issue. I would say that's why I'm saying like that gap increases over time. The younger you are, the smaller the gap that makes sense versus the older you are. Right. Because even if you said an 80 year old and 40 year old, a 40 year old, they have a lot more in common or like a 50 year old because you're both at a level of, high level of maturity that.

Nicole [00:09:06]: Yeah, but you're still at totally different areas of your life.

John [00:09:09]: Yeah, but, but that doesn't like you could also have people from different cultures that had a completely different background, spoke a different language growing up, that have nothing in, in common, that are of a similar age, that end up having a great relationship and building it. So I don't think that's a good different though. It's not different, it's the same thing. They're I think if they grew up.

Nicole [00:09:30]: Around the same time, but they just have different languages that or even different cultures. I think there's still some sort of understanding of the times of life that you're both in.

John [00:09:40]: It's different also culturally like times of life. I mean there's some things that are universal but a lot of things are different culturally in terms of what's considered old or times of life or maturity levels of things as well.

Nicole [00:09:53]: I'm not saying that that's not possible as well too but I think that it would be ridiculous to have this conversation and not be honest about a lot of the huge Dynamics or the 40 year old man going after the 18 year old woman is not about the woman, it's about getting young looking women. And for that man to use that to up his value as a man, which is, and I think that that is what women actually have a problem with is men using women, men using older men, using young women. And I say older men as in like any man that is any age that is using women's significantly younger than them in order to do this. Because like if the 40 year old can actually make a good case why they he should be with an 18 year old. Which I don't think there's any honestly, but if there was, somehow I don't think people would have a problem with that. I think it's that most of the time people are justifying like their huge age gap, weird relationship dynamic by being like they love each other but they don't like, it just doesn't like add up like that person has freshly turned 18 or like freshly legal.

John [00:11:17]: Yeah, yeah, that's.

Nicole [00:11:18]: And you're a what? I'm just using this as an example. But like it's not just like that I feel like is where women actually have the problem is that when it's kind of obvious to everybody that this man is using younger women to up his value because a lot of those men are not even marrying those women, he's just dating those women. And that to me is not him looking for a wife, it's him looking right for validation or just a hookup from mostly men actually.

John [00:11:51]: Right. Which is fine because the woman also in that case is using the man for his resources and his status or his level that he's reached. But I think 18 is a bad example. I think it's better to say 40 and 20 in their young 20s.

Nicole [00:12:09]: But are you telling me that a 40 year old man, if he was not given the option to sleep with a attractive 18 year old that he wouldn't do it?

John [00:12:16]: I'm not saying that a guy and that a guy wouldn't do it. But that's. But again you're talking about short term mating preferences which is fine because a lot of women are attracted to older guys anyway and they're fine. It's only if it's. I think a lot of times it's couches an exploitive situation. But it's not an exploitive situation if the person is an adult and they are making their own decisions. You know what I'm saying? So that's whatever people want to choose is totally fine now because there's also a difference between what is wrong or exploitive versus what is optimal. So we haven't even gotten into the optimal age gap that should exist that's going to actually result in the most successful relationship. But there's no reason why people can't do what they want to do. There's nothing predatory about a man. I mean I would say that 18 is a number where it's right on the edge of the. Of, you know, of being a minor. So I don't like that number even 20. Let's 20.

Nicole [00:13:17]: That's 20 years difference.

John [00:13:19]: But it doesn't matter. Like there's double your age.

Nicole [00:13:21]: Yeah. That could be your child.

John [00:13:23]: Right. So there's no reason why, why a man couldn't, couldn't date a 20 year old. Like that's 40 years old.

Nicole [00:13:29]: Why would a man date a 20 year old?

John [00:13:31]: It doesn't matter. Because he wants to. Because like, like why? Why?

Nicole [00:13:34]: No, what? Like why would a man seek a romantic relationship with a 20 year old?

John [00:13:40]: Maybe he's just hooking up. Maybe it's casual relationship.

Nicole [00:13:42]: I'm asking why would he search for a romantic relationship? Like what would that be built on?

John [00:13:49]: Because nothing, he's just attracted to her. Like that's what most relationships are. Like when like most women date guys they're attracted to. Most guys date women that they're attracted to.

Nicole [00:13:58]: No, it's built on more than that.

John [00:13:59]: Well, but like when you are.

Nicole [00:14:01]: It's not built on just that they're attracted.

John [00:14:03]: When you build an actual relationship, then it goes beyond that. But I'm saying. Well, you're talking about like if you're.

Nicole [00:14:11]: Talking about marrying to marry. Yeah, that's what like if men want women to date to marry and not be so promiscuous.

John [00:14:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:18]: We're assuming that this 20 year old is dating to potentially marry this man. But is he dating to potentially marry her?

John [00:14:27]: It doesn't. If the intentions are aligned, then sure, then that's fine. But you don't know what the person's doing. Like if they're clearly just in a fling type of relationship, that's their choices. Right. If there's deception going on. If a 40 year old guy is pretending like he is 35. No, no. Well, yeah, but pretending like he's going to have a future with this 20 year old and he knows that's not true, then that's just deceptive in general. Right. It doesn't matter what age you are when you're deceiving someone, leading them on believing that they're gay. But the fact that there is the age gap, doesn't that doesn't matter.

Nicole [00:15:07]: But also like I guess what I'm just trying to uncover here, and I think that most women are, is that I'm going to say this not because of a conversation we already had before, but like I think that it feels icky with a 40 year old and this could be a 40 year old woman and a 20 year old boy. Cuz I want this to be like, well it's different. I want, well I want it.

John [00:15:32]: Things are different between the, the.

Nicole [00:15:34]: I understand, but I want it to be known that it's wrong either way.

John [00:15:37]: Well, when you say why would it be wrong?

Nicole [00:15:39]: Well, I'm going to, I'm going to explain it if you let me talk for a second. So a 40 year old man is in a way different stage of his life. He's learned a lot from the different stages of his life. He is, has a fully developed brain. A 20 year old is very influential, is not fully developed mentally, biologically. And even though they're adult, they have barely had any life experience on their own. And so it feels a little icky that someone that's had so much life experience is now choosing to be with somebody that doesn't know what they're doing. And also it seems risky to a 40 year old to do this because the 20 year old might change their mind. They're at a time of their life where they might get married to you but then realize that they don't want to be married. Like they're at a very like exploratory version of their life where a 40 year old is not.

John [00:16:41]: So we're talking about two different things. So one, we're talking because we haven't gotten into like what is ideal for the age gap. Right? So one, one thing is the what is ideal and then one is what is like the, the moral morality of it. Right? So what I'm trying to do is say there is no morality of it. That's ridiculous. People that stand on the moral high ground saying it's icky or it's bad for an older man to date a younger woman.

Nicole [00:17:06]: I said it's vice versa, also icky.

John [00:17:08]: There's no part in that. That's incorrect. That's not a correct viewpoint because that's just usually coming from jealousy or some kind of.

Nicole [00:17:18]: But it's coming from what I just explained.

John [00:17:20]: No, because what's ideal is, is the other part of it. So ideal we can talk about what's ideal which is what is the ideal age gap that is going to produce the most successful relationship. But when you're talking about people's choices about what they want to do, there is no judgment to judge a man for dating a younger woman if she makes that choice and he makes that choice, there's no judgment there. It's a matter of is it ideal, for example, is it ideal for a 40 year old man to marry a 20 year old woman, probably not right. For a lot of different reasons, but it's not morally reprehensible. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:18:05]: I mean, I'm not saying that they can't make their choices. I think like I said, from a perspective of I'm a 34 year old woman, if I was 40 and single, for some reason, there's no way that I would date a 20 year old. Because also, and for the reason that I just said, and even if I was a man, it'd be the same way. Like that is still a child in my eyes. Like not a technical child, but developmentally a child. Like I was 20 something years old. I do not have the same mindset or anything that I had that I had when I was 20.

John [00:18:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:18:41]: And so that is what I'm saying is that like cognitively, as someone that's on her way to 40, whatever, like I just would not be able to do that from the perspective of where I'm at in my life and pursuing someone in a totally different stage of life that is way more chaotic and confusing. They don't have their stuff figured out. I would not even trust that they actually knew if they loved me or not. If they knew the reality of, of making a commitment like getting married. That's what I'm saying. I don't get how men don't think about that because they're not, because they're.

John [00:19:23]: Not thinking about that. I'll tell you why, because I have perspective on this, right? Because when I was 40, basically 38, 39, 40, I dated plenty of 20 year olds. 21, 22, 23. Right. I'm not looking at any kind of long term future. I'm just looking to have fun. And I had. And you know what I'm saying? I'm not thinking this is someone that I want to spend my time with.

Nicole [00:19:46]: Now, were you actively seeking that age range out?

John [00:19:50]: Like between 20 to 30? I was actively seeking out, yeah.

Nicole [00:19:54]: Okay. And so not younger, not older, but not past 30.

John [00:19:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:59]: Why?

John [00:20:00]: Because that's what I wanted. Because that was my preference.

Nicole [00:20:03]: But why is that a master?

John [00:20:05]: Because I felt like those were the women that I was more attracted to.

Nicole [00:20:09]: Would give you most validation as well too. To being a man with high status and high value. No, I think you have to be honest.

John [00:20:18]: No, no, that like seriously, that's, that's.

Nicole [00:20:20]: That'S just what you can be honest that you're attracted to them, but I think you need to be honest that choosing those women also upped your value. As a man. And that's what I need. I need men.

John [00:20:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:30]: To tell the truth. Well, yeah, of course we know. And that's the problem is like, men aren't telling the truth. They're just like, that's what I'm attracted to. Hold on. Men. And that's like just tell the actual, the full truth. Which is you're attracted to them.

John [00:20:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:43]: But you're also doing it because it adds something to you as a man. And I think that barely any men have acknowledged that. And that's all that women really want. Want for men to tell the full truth and nothing but the truth. Which is, yes, we all know you're attracted to them, but you need to also say, why? Because yes, they're young. But also it adds something to you.

John [00:21:07]: It's a, it's a status symbol for sure. Right. Like that, A, that an older man can get younger women for sure.

Nicole [00:21:14]: That's taking grandmas to your high school reunion and being like, look at me, you're taking young women.

John [00:21:19]: Obviously it's more impressive, right? Because it's a harder thing to do. You have to be much more attractive and established as a man and to have some level of game or, you know, status that, that women that are that young would be attracted to you. Right. Because most men in their 40s look like shit and they haven't been successful in life. So there is an aspect of that, of course, but there's nothing wrong with that aspect because some women that are younger are also like, look, I'm dating this guy and he's in his 40s and he's got a lot of money and he's got six pack abs and he's got all these young women that like him. Like.

Nicole [00:22:01]: But women do typically grow out of that is what I'm saying too. Like, women are not holding onto that in usually past their mid-40s, 30s, or into their 40s and beyond. Like, they're not like, look what I've done. But men are holding onto that well.

John [00:22:20]: Into their older age because men and women are valued and have status based on different things in life. Right. So it's not impressive for a woman to have a younger guy. That's not impressive. It is impressive for a guy to have a younger woman. Those are things that are. It's more impressive if you look at what makes a woman have a high status. It would be that she's attractive, that she has a good guy, a guy that treats her well. So when women brag about their relationships or things that give them Status to other women. They brag about that they're dating a guy that is high status and that. That guy. And mostly about how he treats them. Right. Because if that guy treats that woman really well, that gives her status in the eyes of other women. When guys are increasing their status in regards to other men, they're talking about how young the girl is that they're dating or how attractive that she is. Those are the things that create status.

Nicole [00:23:22]: The things that she has no control over.

John [00:23:24]: Yeah, but that's just the reality. I didn't create the reality. That's what critics.

Nicole [00:23:28]: I know, but I'm just saying it is based on things she has no control over. And for women, it's based on things men have control over to a degree.

John [00:23:36]: Right. I mean, guy can't control. Yeah, you're right. Like, to. To a degree. There's some other aspects of it.

Nicole [00:23:42]: So every man listening to this, if you feel hopeless, you shouldn't. Because women should feel hopeless because they're judged on things they have no control, they can't control.

John [00:23:49]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:23:50]: And we still don't feel hopeless.

John [00:23:51]: So, again, exactly. Yeah. So you shouldn't, because you do have more. I. I think you have more ability to control your future as a man than you do as a woman. Y. Women have more options in selection, but men have more control over their ultimate destiny. You know what I'm saying? So that's what the trade off is. But I think it comes down to, like I was saying is that it's just. There is an aspect of that, but it's like the whole Dan Blizzerian thing, right? You're familiar with Dan Blizarian and the whole. Okay, so there was like a whole thing where it's like, okay, people are upset. Okay, Dan has all these attractive women around him, and some people say he's exploiting them or whatever. It's interesting. I heard a thing that he was talking about, and it sounds really weird to say this, but he was like, actually, a lot of those women were using me. It's like, people are like, oh, he's using all these women. No, because a lot of these women are like, okay, if I go here and I'm around this guy, then I get now his celebrity. I get the exposure. I get to be on his Instagram, I get to ride on the yacht and to do all these things. And it's like, are they actually really even attracted or interested in him? No, they're just hanging around him in order to get that benefit of being near him. Now Again, I'm not saying that we should have relationships that are totally transactional, but you can see that there's always a trade off. There's a reason why you don't think.

Nicole [00:25:19]: That those women have learned from men here, hearing what you're saying, to use their hotness in their youth.

John [00:25:25]: Oh, for sure.

Nicole [00:25:26]: To do that since they're just gonna be used for it anyway.

John [00:25:29]: But there's a reason why younger women date older men. They're getting a benefit out of it as well, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Right. So whatever that benefit is, obviously for men, some of the benefit is the status of dating a younger woman. For sure, I won't disagree with that. But also the woman is getting a benefit out of it as well, you know what I'm saying? And some of the benefits could be very materialistic types of benefits. But some of them can also be that, hey, look, guys that like, if you look at kind of the whole, the list of the Time magazine, like most sexiest man of the year, almost every year it's a guy that's in his late 30s or mid-40s, like up to that. That's the range of guys that have the potential of being the most attractive because those are usually guys that are the most masculine, that have the most status. That's where men are typically at their peak attractiveness if they achieve that level. They're also more rare because most guys that are in their 30s, mid-30s to mid-40s, have let themselves go, have not achieved the things in life and so they're less attractive. That's kind of how it just balances out. But, but I think it's just a matter of understanding that like both parties are getting something out of the situation, otherwise they wouldn't be in that transaction.

Nicole [00:26:55]: Yeah, I just don't like viewing it that way because honestly, like I was not searching for someone 11 years older than me. I do think that women do mature faster than men and so it is beneficial to them to date older because you typically feel like you're more on the same wavelength, like maturity wise. However, I also know that when I was 20, 20 something years old, I would not have touched a 40 year old or probably even a 30 year old with a 10 foot pole. Like they just seem so old to me. I was still like relatively to you.

John [00:27:36]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:27:37]: At that point they just, I felt like they look so much older. I mean, look, I'm saying this as now I'm in my 30s, but they like, there's just no way that I would have even entertained someone at 20 that was 31 years old.

John [00:27:52]: Like, yeah, like take 22, 23, 24.

Nicole [00:27:56]: I mean, even then I.

John [00:27:57]: 25. You didn't date someone that was in their 50s. Like, I mean, like, like not at.

Nicole [00:28:05]: 25 or like later, late 20s. Yes. Then I did start being like, okay, I can see where a bigger age gap might be, potential better.

John [00:28:14]: It's all preference, right? So it's like not every woman in their 20s, early 20s wants to date a guy in their 40s. But also it also depends on the guy. Most women in their 20s, if you ask them, they would say that they wouldn't want to date a guy that's in their 40s, but if the right guy showed up, they would change their, their, their mind, right? So it's like, but I mean, maybe that's a good segue into like what's ideal? Right? Because I think the first part is like, what is okay versus what's ideal? Because it's not necessarily ideal. I think ideal is to have a man be older than a woman. That is ideal. Now, the degree at which he's older, I agree with you. I think for the most part it's ideal if the guy is around 10 years older. Right? Like somewhere in that, in that range. Not less than that, not less than that. I think that, well, that's a, that's.

Nicole [00:29:11]: I mean, not going less than that. I feel like that's a little strict.

John [00:29:17]: Well, we're, well we're talking about not what's, what's permissible, but what's ideal. Right? So what is the ideal number? Right. Here's why I'll tell you that that's ideal. It's like we've talked about before in other episodes of podcast, is that a guy really has no business getting a long term relationship in his 20s. He's too immature, he's not established as a man. He doesn't have the selection that he will later on in life if he places cards right? So he's going to make bad choices and he's not going to really be able to be a good leader because he's not going to be able to lead. In that case, there's exceptions. He doesn't have enough experience and people have success. But as a general rule, that's true. So if you take a guy that's like, okay, then when does a guy really establish himself, mature enough that he could lead a woman effectively and be in a long term relationship and have enough experience, to me that number starts at 35 and it goes up from there. But I feel like maybe there's some guys in their 30s that could like in their early 30s. But typically in order for a man to establish himself, he needs to spend his 20s, like building himself, making money, learning things, doing some dating in order to understand who he is as a man and developing his masculinity. But he usually doesn't come into his full maturity until around maybe you could say early 30s, but I would say 35. Again, this comes from coaching a lot of guys over a long period of time. And my own personal experience, if you take a guy that let's say is 35, right. Where should he date? I mean, I think that he's probably going to want to date girls that are like 25 to 30, which is about the 10 year age gap. And those girls are going to be like, sure, he could date a girl that's the same age as him, like 35. But the issue with that is that he's not going to have a lot over her in terms of where she would look up to him in the leadership because she's also that have that much experience in life. Plus he's going to probably want to opportunistically get the highest value in the sexual marketplace that he can, just like a woman would make that choice. So it's probably going to be in the 20s. Again, you take a guy that's 35, 40 years old and you take 10 years away from that, that's going to be about the proper age gap where I would say that it's going to be ideal because he's going to be established as a man, she's going to look up to him, respect him, and he's going to be able to lead her confidently with the life experience that he has.

Nicole [00:32:00]: So she has to be younger to look up to him and respect him.

John [00:32:04]: It doesn't have to be the case, but it's way more likely to be the case. Right. Like you said, women mature faster than men. I think that is very true. And a man, in order for you to trust a man with your life, right. He should probably have accumulated more wealth than you. He should probably have more life experience with more situations than you so that he knows how to handle things better and can give you some wisdom that you can learn from him. Right. So it doesn't mean that that dynamic can't be flipped in certain instances. But typically that's going to be somewhere around a 5 to 10 year age gap. Right. Now if you go too far and it's like a 20 year age gap, then you have a whole host of other problems of this person not having enough life experience at all to even make a solid choice of commitment. And there's still a lot of changing that's going to happen in that person. For a guy that's 40, if he tries to seriously date someone who's 20, there's exceptions, but probably it's not going to work out well. Whereas a girl that, if you're 40 and you're dating a girl that's 30, maybe 28, 29, you know, which was like our, our scenario, right. Was I think I was 40 and you were 29. Or no, I was 30 or I guess I was 39. No, you were 40 when we first started dating. I think you were, you just turned 28 because your birthday.

Nicole [00:33:31]: 29.

John [00:33:32]: Oh, you just turned 29. Yeah, I guess that's right.

Nicole [00:33:35]: Yeah.

John [00:33:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:36]: Because then that year we went on my 30th.

John [00:33:38]: Yeah, okay. Yeah. So you had just, you turned 41. So I met you when you were 28. Yes, yes.

Nicole [00:33:44]: Barely.

John [00:33:45]: Yeah, well, you're, yeah. When you're barely. Because you're almost 29. Right, right. But I mean, that worked in an ideal. Not to, you know, just to say, okay, well, ours is ideal. But I think ours is ideal. I think that that age gap is ideal, right?

Nicole [00:34:00]: Yes. Because I don't feel like you're that much older than me, but I do not like that you're that much older than me because 11 years is a lot. And that's also too why I think that the huge age gaps are bad. It's like, okay, you're choosing to be with someone 20 years older than you, you know, you're going to lose them. That's like before, potentially. Like, if, God willing, everything goes according to plan and you both go into old age, you are going to lose them first. And that part I don't like about the age gap. Like, that part makes me wish that you weren't 11 years older than me because that is scary. And it sucks to like have a relationship with someone you care so much about, but they're a decent amount of years ahead of you.

John [00:34:47]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why, that's why I was saying, like 10 is about ideal where it's not gonna be that much of a difference. Plus, you know.

Nicole [00:34:55]: Yeah, but like five would be better because it's still a decent amount ahead.

John [00:35:01]: But also, I'm not, I'm not opposed to 5. Like I said, like, I, I, I'm just saying That I think the ideal where you have the. Again, I mean, you could look at it from different perspectives, but from a man's perspective, if I'm giving a guy advice, I'm going to tell him, don't seriously date into committed relationships until you're 35. And then look for a woman that's about 10 years younger than you because you're going to get the best opportunity, the best options, right? You have time, she's got more time to. That's the other thing is if you think about children as well, right? A woman that her peak fertile years are gonna be between 25 and 35. They're not gonna be past 35. It's possible, but that's where birth defect incidence increases and trouble and all those issues occur. And so if a guy is waiting till he's 35 to get into a committed, serious relationship, then he needs to at least date 5 years younger, but preferably 10 years younger in order to, you know, if he wants to build a family.

Nicole [00:36:06]: So, yeah, it's just, I guess too like, yes, it is the best advice to tell women, you know, to date older men because they are more likely to be mature. But the thing is, I know some men that are around your age that are not mature at all. And so at the same time, it's like. And I'm. I mean, I guess you're more so telling the 10 years for men. But I think honestly, what's the most important to women is the maturity level, not the age. And that's what they're looking for. And that's why they might lean towards looking for mature men or older men because they're assuming they're more mature. But that's not always the case. Sometimes there are younger men that are more mature and women will go with that. Younger man that is more mature.

John [00:36:56]: Well, okay, so. So let's flip it and talk about from a woman's. Because I talked about from a man's perspective of what you should be looking for, what will be optimized for you. But if you looked at from a woman's perspective, what would optimize for her, it's not going to be the same thing because she's going to be looking for a man who's masculine, who's financially stable, who she trusts. Right. Who she trusts, who could actually be a good leader. Right. So she could find that in a guy her same age. It's quite possible, right? You know what I'm saying? She doesn't necessarily have to date older. The probability, if she's 25 of finding it in a 25 year old guy, very low possible. And if you find that guy, sure, marry that guy. Right. I'm not saying don't, I'm saying have the age gap be zero. In that case, if you found a guy that you truly look up to, that you respect as a leader and trust his wisdom above your own because that's what it's going to take to be a leader and you're willing to submit to his authority as a wife and he's the same age as you, go for it. I'm 100% on board with that. But the probability of you finding that at 25 a guy that's 25 is very unlikely. It's much more likely when you're at your sexual peak as a woman in your mid-20s or whatever where you have the highest selection of men that you're going to find that in a guy that is 35, 30, somewhere around there that he's going to be five to 10 years older than you. That's where most likely you're going to find it. But it doesn't mean that you shouldn't. If you do find a guy that's younger. Sure, but. But it should be selecting on those qualities.

Nicole [00:38:34]: Yeah, no, I agree. I think that women shouldn't focus as much on age obviously. Like I don't think that a 25 year old woman is going to find her soulmate in a 60 year old man.

John [00:38:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:38:46]: That's so these extremes. Yes, but I don't think that women should put themselves in a box because I think it is different for women. I think that like if you find the right man, it doesn't matter what his age is. Again like I think that it won't be in some like crazy extreme where you're like 25 and 70 year old man is your. I don't think that that's going to happen. But I think that women should be more open to the age range. Again like I think 20 years older. Like I think you just run the risk of like not relating to each other in the way that you want and in the season of life that you're in. And so I don't think that's probably gonna be the man for you 20 years. That's why I said like 15 is probably the highest. But I think that women should be open to up to 15 and like maybe a certain age range below their age as well. Now I'm not saying that that's ideal, right?

John [00:39:45]: It's not ideal, but it's but I.

Nicole [00:39:46]: But for the right person.

John [00:39:47]: Yeah, for the right person I would agree.

Nicole [00:39:49]: I think that women shouldn't limit theirselves in that way. And again it shouldn't go the opposite way. Like you shouldn't be a 40 year old woman dating a 20 year old man and acting like that's the love of my life, like you can't relate to him either.

John [00:40:00]: And also I mean that that one is going to be a lot harder like, like a, a 40 year old man dating a 20 year old woman. Okay, but a 40 year old woman dating a 20 year old man as a 40 year old woman. Are you honestly going to tell me that you're going to respect a 20 year old man to be the authority in their relationship? And okay, if you are then sure, but that's the biggest issue I have. It's not like a sexist thing with the age gap. It's just that because of the order of things of what we call a modern traditional relationship, a woman respecting the man as the authority and the leader, typically he's going to have to be older and have more experience. It doesn't mean that's always the case. But it's be really hard for a woman to respect a man that's way younger than her.

Nicole [00:40:44]: I mean, I just think it's weird. Like I think it's weird because you don't relate to each other like and I guess that's my thing is like if you're looking for your ideal relationship.

John [00:40:54]: Sure.

Nicole [00:40:55]: Not just to have fun, think it's. Exactly.

John [00:40:57]: Yeah. If you were looking to just have fun then it doesn't matter what the ages are. Anyone can have fun.

Nicole [00:41:02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you're looking for actual relationship and you're going to these extremes like either way, like I said, I think it's weird on either side because you can't relate to each other in a way that's going to harbor the closest amount of intimacy. Like if you're just willy nilly just dating people way younger than you and they are fine with that, then that's fine. I'm not. People can make the choices they're going to make. I just think it's weird on both sides that older people would seek out these younger people that they know because we've all been younger as we get older, we've all been younger that are not in the state of mind to be making certain decisions that the older people might be putting on to them. Like it just seems kind of taking advantage of their youth and like I.

John [00:41:55]: Mean, I don't like to take it advantage though, that. Because that's like just. You can't take advantage of people like the, the person. When people make willing choices as adults, they're never taken advantage of. It's just a victim mindset to say the words taking advantage.

Nicole [00:42:09]: I mean, I think though that, like, if you're older and you know that those people are very influenced and they don't have all the wisdom and knowledge because they haven't lived their life, I think that there is something to say, like, why are you not dating people closer to, to your age that like, have been through similar life experiences? That's what I'm trying to say.

John [00:42:30]: Oh.

Nicole [00:42:30]: Because like I said, it's just odd to me to try to have a deep connection relationship with someone that is so far from your walk of life.

John [00:42:40]: Well, that's, that's actually ideally what you want as a man is you do want a woman that is more impressionable that, that, that.

Nicole [00:42:47]: Because don't let someone see this.

John [00:42:50]: Well, I mean, it's not in a bad way. Like, like you can, you can look at that as a bad way. And I'm just going to gaslight her on all of this stuff and she's just going to, I'm going to teach her all these things that just. I'm the most supreme ruler of the universe and none of these other things matter. That's not the idea. The idea is that you do want a woman that's more impressionable because you're supposed to be the leader and you're supposed to lead her. You should be a man of enough character and wisdom that you know that you're going to lead a family in the correct direction and a woman. And so it's better if you have someone who is more likely to accept that leadership. A woman that is older and set more in her own ways is less likely. Now, I'm not saying, but it's more.

Nicole [00:43:37]: Impressive to me that a man would be a leader no matter what age.

John [00:43:42]: The woman is, for sure.

Nicole [00:43:43]: But like, it just seems like you want it easier if you're just looking for someone that's younger. So they're going to automatically do it.

John [00:43:49]: No, no, look, look, if you're a guy and you're, and you're, let's say, 40 years old and you meet a woman that's also 40 years old and she's attractive and you like her and she respects you and as the authority and looks up to you as wiser than her and as someone who can Guide her in life and she is going to accept that, then by all means marry that woman and have a happy life and you'll be fine. It's just less likely that you just like I said, it's less likely that the 25 year old girl is going to find a 25 year old guy that's mature and all of these things and is going to be a good leader and someone she can trust. It's less likely that a woman that's 40 is going to respect a man that's also 40 in that way. Whereas again, it's not about taking advantage of, it's just about the reality of the situation is that look, if I'm a man and I'm trying to do things the right way, I'm going to be in charge of my house, I'm going to be the authority in my house, my wife is going to listen to and respect me and respect my authority how it needs to be. Because I'm running this ship and I need to be in order to protect the passengers on the ship, I need to have the authority on this ship. And if I feel like a person is going to challenge that authority and not accept that authority, then it's not going to be a good relationship because I'm not going to be able to pilot the ship to safety. And so that's what it comes down to. It's not like taking advantage of. I agree that some people could use that situation to try and take advantage of to for their own means. So for example, we talked about being a good leader versus a bad leader, right? Someone being an authority like a person who's a good leader is a servant leader who puts the other people who's in his kingdom above himself, looks for their welfare, does the things that are beneficial to them. Right? Someone who's a bad leader puts his selfish needs above the people in the kingdom. He uses the people in the kingdom. That's where you could say to a degree exploits her. He's basically using his authority position to gain for himself at the detriment of other people. So if you're a 40 year old guy and you date a 20 year old girl and your plan is to use her naivety in order to benefit you and not benefit her, then sure, that would be a bad situation, right? But that's not what all situations are. And again, I agree with you, the more age gap where things become more ideal is more like 5, 10, 15 years, not 20, 25 years. That's where it becomes harder to see in your Mind how that person would be leading in a way that would actually serve the other person. It seems like it might be more of a self serving type of situation, you know what I'm saying? So, so that, that part I agree with.

Nicole [00:46:52]: I get what you're saying. I think just it can come across a little like, here's the easy mode, just find a younger women woman. And I get what you're saying, that it is easier for women to look up to, to a man that is older than them because they can acknowledge that he's been through more life than they have and he has learned more things and he has gone through more things. I agree with that. I think just viewing it as like men go for younger makes it come across. Even though I know that's not what you're intending it to. I know you're intending it to come across in the way that I just mentioned that it's like you do have more wisdom than a woman that is younger than you because you've been through more life and you've been through more things. But I think it comes across as like, oh, well, make sure you get a young one so that you can, you know, know this. Like, I'm not saying that that's right.

John [00:47:42]: Not what I'm saying what you're saying.

Nicole [00:47:44]: But I think that that is how it comes across and no one has taken the time to explain it in this, this sort of way. And so that's also what rubs people the wrong way.

John [00:47:54]: And I get it.

Nicole [00:47:55]: Yeah, it's being taken to mean like, oh, get them while they're young so you can like mold them into what they want. We've heard that from certain places.

John [00:48:05]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:05]: And I know that's not what you're saying.

John [00:48:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:08]: But unless you like explain it to this depth, which again, I don't feel like most people have had this conversation, then like people are assuming that that's what people mean.

John [00:48:19]: And all we have to do is change the word molding into guiding, because that's what it is, is guiding. You know what I'm saying? A person who is more set in their ways is less open to guidance. And if you're a leader and you are the authority that is setting the course of direction for the family, then you do need the person that you are leading to be open to guidance.

Nicole [00:48:46]: I hear what you're saying, but I think that, I mean, thinking about today's generation, I think that it's not about age. A lot of them seem set in their ways, even more so than some of the older people, I think it's about an open minded person that also is wanting and willing to do the right thing and to be able to hear maybe something that goes against their beliefs and being open enough to hear it out and potentially change their beliefs to having a growth mindset. Because I don't think, I think that doesn't matter what age somebody is, that if they're set in their ways like you said, and they're stubborn and, and they're more of a fixed mindset. It doesn't matter how old they are, they're not gonna follow your lead.

John [00:49:31]: Let me give you this. Suppose I had a coaching client of mine, right? And he's like, I'm dating two girls. Okay, let's say that he's 40 years old and he's like one of the girls I'm dating is 38 years old, the other girl is 25. And he's like, I really like the 25 year old girl. She's really hot. She's like, she's kind, whatever. I like the 38 year old as well. Like, you know, she's great. And it comes down to the fact that it's like, okay, the 30. Or like I talked to him and he says the 38 year old woman, she, she actually like, she's feminine. She, she respects me as a man. Like she wants a man that's gonna be a leader, right? And, and, and is gonna be the provider, right? And take charge. Like she, she, she likes when I open doors for her and she likes to appreciates dad and she treats me like a big strong man. The 25 year old, she's kind of fiery. She's like, she's fun but she, you know, she definitely like, you know, has some feminist kind of ideas and she's like, she thinks that like there's, that there's no reason why a man should be a leader, a man should be a charge or you know, she's kind of boss babe kind of mindset. But she's a nice person and she's really cool and we have a great relationship. I'm gonna tell them to pick the 38 year old woman because that makes more sense, you know what I'm saying? So it also kind of branches into the discussion that we've had about women's age, which is always an upsetting kind of discussion. But the best thing you can do if you're a woman who's older to compete with women who are younger is to be that kind of woman. Because even me as a coach who's going to be bluntly honest with guys and is going to be. If someone's, they're paying me to coach them, I'm going to give them the best advice I can give them. I'm going to tell that guy to pick the 38 year old. I'm not going to tell him to pick the 25 year old. So you see what I'm saying? It's like that's the kind of thing.

Nicole [00:51:31]: I know that that's where you're coming from, but that's why we need to have this conversation to the fullest extent that we've had it at this point is because I think that women hear a lot of men just say kind of the basic stuff that even you've said during this, but they don't explain it the way that you have. And they don't. And men do need the advice. Like you said, they do need to be men that are leading and in charge and go for a woman that respects that. I mean, they also have to be good leaders and they have to figure out how to do that because no woman is going to blindly follow the lead of a man that she feels like is not a leader. Honestly, it doesn't have those qualities, but that it is more important that the, who the person is and how they treat you than youth and beauty and whatever. Like too much is fed to men about young women. And like, whatever, like going for those. Which is fine if you find a woman that does look up to you and does respect you all the ways that you just said. But like some men are just strictly going for those things because that's all they care about is how the woman looks and what they should be doing. They should be going for younger, but they're, they're kicking to the curb women that would be good to them as well too, that would follow their lead. That would be good women for them. And they're discrediting that. And women shouldn't do the same either. Like they shouldn't. Like if a guy, maybe he is around your same age or whatever, maybe he's a little bit younger, but he is a good man and you do respect him. Like, you shouldn't discredit that sort of man either. He's the type of man like with integrity and the qualities that you want.

John [00:53:16]: Yeah, yeah. And it's just, it's just about the, the size of the pools that you're fishing in. And that's what it comes down to. Because when we're talking about the ideals that's Why I said the ideal age gap is about 10 years because the, that optimizes those pools, right? Because like we were just saying, like a man that's fishing in a pool of 20ish, like mid 20s girls is going to have more women that are going to be more likely to look up to him and respect him and be willing to accept and be guided. They're not as set in their ways now. There's going to be variation in that. Whereas when he looks at the pool of women that are from 35 to 40, let's say there's going to be a lot more women that have more of a feminist mindset, that have a more of like I can handle, I don't need a man type of mindset. That's just more of what he's going to be looking at. And so that's why the things kind of balance out that way and that it's probably, he's probably going to have more success in the 5 to 10 year age gap lower than he's going to find at his own age. That's just in general, it doesn't mean there's not exceptions, but that's just how it is. Just the same thing like I said about women in their fishing pools. If A woman who's 25 is fishing in a pool of 25 to 30 year old guys, good luck, really, you know what I'm saying? But if Your pool is 30 to 40, a lot more opportunity.

Nicole [00:54:37]: I mean, I think it's funny you say that because even when I was in my 20s, I think it's funny because I think the most feminist people are young women.

John [00:54:51]: That's what the perception is.

Nicole [00:54:53]: I think that's a majority. And then I think women, when they get to like their mid-20s, like late 20s, honestly and early 30s, they are way more open to following a man's lead.

John [00:55:05]: It depends. It depends. Like, and I agree, I think, I think, I think 25, like, you know, if I go back to, to, to my days and if I was thinking about, because I wasn't thinking about like serious long term type of things, but if I was like, you know what I would have considered would have been 25 to 30, like that, like, I wouldn't have thought like, I would have thought more like the higher end of that, I would have said like, probably like, if I was like, okay, what's the ideal? You know, I would have been looking at like more like 27 to 30. Right? Yeah, right, that's, that's what those are the ones which Is which, which is what I actually ended up anyway. Right. So like lucky you. Yeah, but no, but because that, because, because of, because of what you said makes sense in that, in that range. But what I'm saying is that, that, that that pool, it does change. And some of it is cultural as well.

Nicole [00:55:55]: Depending on lead men to believe that young women are not feminist. They're the most feminist.

John [00:56:00]: Some like it depends on again the age. But like you said, as you get up in the mid-20s and above, then it becomes less. But some of it is generational too. Right. Because the youngest generation of women now that are hitting 20 are less feminist because we have a cultural wave that's shifting. So some of it is based on that. But again even those ideologies, those are easily shifted. So it's like being set in your way does not necessarily mean of which ideology that you're. It's more about being stubborn. Right. And so it's like the older you get, typically the more stubborn that you become. Not always true, but for a lot of people that is the path that they unfortunately progress upon.

Nicole [00:56:46]: Some of these kids, they're already stubborn. I'm like, yeah, I would not be telling.

John [00:56:51]: But see, but they're, but they're on one thing one week and then they're on something totally different the next week, you know.

Nicole [00:56:56]: Yeah, that seems too complicated. That's not even be messing with that.

John [00:57:00]: That's, that's more, more guidable if you have the correct guidance.

Nicole [00:57:05]: I feel like they're stubborn though on the thing they believe of the week, of the problems.

John [00:57:09]: Yeah, for sure. But that's where like when you respect someone and look up to them, then you trust their judgment. And so that's the condition is like you need to have any guy that is going to be in a relationship with a woman, she needs to respect him and look up to him.

Nicole [00:57:25]: Yeah, and I agree with that.

John [00:57:27]: If she does, then it doesn't really matter where she's at on some ideology like she's going to conform to his because she sees him as someone who has wisdom, who she can learn from.

Nicole [00:57:38]: Well, she also see that that is a better one than she had anyway because she wouldn't be attracted to you and want to be with you if she didn't trust you and your opinions.

John [00:57:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:57:49]: If that makes sense. It's not just about conforming. It's not just about like doing what the man says. It's like maybe you believe something but you meet somebody that explains it in a way like you do and it does make sense. And so you do change your mind because that's what's happened. That would happen to me. You didn't force me into this.

John [00:58:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:09]: And I think that again, you're kind of explaining it in a very black and white way that is going to trigger women. But I know what you're trying to say because I know you and I need to like kind of round it out so that it's not lost in translation that like for the right person and someone that you trust and has proven to you that, you know, they've thought about this a lot, that they've learned from this, like they explain it to you in a way that makes sense.

John [00:58:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:58:41]: Like that can change your mind and you should be open minded enough to change your mind. I've changed your mind with certain things. You've changed my mind. And so that's what it has to be. And also you have some respect for me as well too. Like yes, men value respect at the highest level. But I don't think also, and I guess too, this goes back without going on a full tangent, I just don't feel like it makes a lot of sense that men respect some of these younger women in the way that they're treating them. And I think that that has to be there as well too. Like I think a man has to respect the woman that he's with and if she's just hot and she's just used this like status symbol, he doesn't respect her for sure.

John [00:59:26]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:26]: And so it is about being open minded and it is about it being okay to change your mind. You don't have to hold on to a belief that you have when you get new information. You should change your mind.

John [00:59:37]: Right. And like if you take our situation right, because you were more on the feminist spectrum at the, at that time. I mean what I presented to you was this was, I'm a man, I act this way. Like I'll treat you better than anyone you've ever known in your life. But these are my standards. Like I will be in charge. Like I will be the leader. Like that's uncompromising, right? So it's like you have to make that choice. It's like, are you going to move in this direction? Like, is it worth it to you to trust someone who you know is going to treat you better than anyone else and put you first? You know what I'm saying? Like I wasn't like I forcing you to like change, right. It's like I'm presenting this offer to you like I'm inviting you to. To come along with me or not. But. But I can't compromise these principles or values.

Nicole [01:00:36]: Yeah, but here's the real thing, is that I don't think women even have a problem with the leader. It has to be the right leader. And that's hard to find. That's what they have a problem with that. Because the majority of men aren't good leaders. You are, and you proved that and you showed me that, and that's why I did make that choice. But if it was some other man, I would have said no, because he wouldn't have been a good leader. I would not have trusted him more than I trust myself.

John [01:01:02]: Right.

Nicole [01:01:02]: And so that's where the difference is, though, is that these men that you're telling to go after young men, they have to be those sort of men, though, because no one's going to follow their lead if they're not.

John [01:01:14]: Exactly. And that's why, like I'm saying, like, if you're a woman who's younger, you're probably going to find more fish in the pool of older guys that meet that criteria than younger guys. It's just how it's going to be. And if you find one who's younger, sure, great. That's awesome. But probably it's going to take a guy to be at least 35 to 40 before he becomes that man, because there's very few men that are below 35 or definitely very few that are below 30 that have got all that shit dialed in and that you would trust to that degree.

Nicole [01:01:47]: That's true.

John [01:01:47]: So, okay, all right.

Nicole [01:01:49]: I think we went through all of it. So send us an email message at Better Than Perfect Podcast Gmail. Check out our website, like and subscribe. Website is better than perfectpod.com.

John [01:02:07]: Yeah. And like, like we said last episode, if you want to get weekly updates with all the show notes, links and all those things, just subscribe there for the newsletter. Yeah. And we'll see you.