John: You know, I always like to use the whole flossing your teeth analogy, the tooth decay, the tartar analogy. What destroys most relationships is that buildup of tartar from having fights. You sort of make up, but you haven't fully resolved the things because you're not willing to talk for 8 hours. You might have even said sorry to each other, but you haven't actually resolved the issue, and that's just resentment that's building up. I even had some of that. I just had this energy inside of me that didn't feel normal, from me not talking through it enough so that you could understand why I was emotionally backed up. Beyond, we discover through our flaws, we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault, we find our way. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole: There you go. And we're back, back and back again. We are back. But, you know, I guess the viewers wouldn't know that we were gone last week, but we missed last week. We were on the way to the episode, and then we got into a fight in the car.

John: No, we were in the middle of that the whole time, yeah, before we even got in the car.

Nicole: So, yeah, yeah. And then we sat in the parking lot and then turned around and came back home. But hey, and some other thing happened. What else happened?

John: Oh, well, yeah. I mean, little bump in the parking lot, got to scrape a test up. If you get one, John does, he can't resist doing it. But, yeah, so that's what we figured we'd talk about today, just what we learn from it.

Nicole: It's like, you know, we like to be as transparent as possible.

John: Yeah, so, and I think that's good. I think it's important to be transparent because that's, you know, it's trust, right?

Nicole: Well, and we're not just showing you the good things. I mean, I know we already do a segment anyway where we talk about what we went through, but I mean, to think it is important for people to realize that sometimes we have our moments for the whole day, and it derails the plans. I mean, I told John, 'cause like you said, we were talking about the situation we were going through before we even left, and I was like, "I can't go and sit here, yeah, while we still have unfinished business, yeah, and talk about something else and be something else, 'cause then it's going to be like I'm acting."

John: Right, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'm a pretty good actress, but this isn't the place for acting.

Nicole: Yeah, so yeah, it was really hard. And poor Rodrigo was probably like, "Where the heck are they?" But I just couldn't go and have our issue unresolved, like to the way that it was. Like, if it was kind of resolved and we were like, "Let's pick this back up after," yeah, that would have been different. But just the timing of it, it was not resolved, and it wasn't resolved for quite a while, to be honest, till late in the evening, I would say. I think until we, well, really, really the next morning was when we really resolved it. I mean, it was resolved at the end, but it's like we had resolved it enough to go to sleep and then continued the conversation.

John: Yeah, a little bit more clarity. But we dug into some psychology of ourselves and figured out some things. And I think it's like, you know, I was a little bit disappointed in myself, and I was like, "Like, we've been doing so good, like, everything, like, no, does this mean that we're a failure?" But it's not because it's you, that's part of the growth process, right? And you're going to have to constantly find stuff that you need to still work on that you think you have mastered, and you don't. I mean, heck, before I even met you, I thought I had it all. I was like, "Okay, I'm the most easy to get along with guy, you know, that there is. I don't get upset, I don't lose my cool at all, and I don't have problems, and I've worked all those out." And then I found that that's not the case. But you keep on improving it to another. In fact, one of the books I was reading on relationships recently, I was telling you about it, has this chart in there.

Nicole: Right.

John: And the L is showing how the therapist is showing how it's, you know, the growth in relationships does not look like just this line that goes up. It looks like poop, and then it's like, but it's like you take two steps forward, one step back, and that's the natural progression of things. So you will have to have those setbacks, which I feel like we talk about that, and that's why it's important to talk about what we're going through because we're not better than perfect because we never argue or have a disagreement or anything like that. It's because we take the time, and sometimes it's a lot of time, and to be honest, during this conversation, I was like, "Maybe we need to figure out a better way to communicate," because it also really shouldn't take probably as long as it does take. But the good part is that we talk about it until we feel like it's fully resolved for both of us, and that's the key. But I think that there are ways that we decided together, too, that there are ways that we could have handled it so that we're not basically taking a whole day and into the next morning to resolve the issue. But it is important to realize that it doesn't make you a failure if you were doing something and then you made a mistake.

Nicole: Right.

John: You know, and you shouldn't treat yourself that way, your partner shouldn't treat you that way because it is going to be not a linear experience. You're not just like, even if you do have something down, like, everybody makes mistakes. And you know, that was part of my problem, that wasn't even like a conscious thing because as I just sit here and tell you this, I understand the concept.

Nicole: Right, exactly.

John: But my subconscious, you know, was like, "You did something wrong," or like, "You know, that's, you have to defend this 'cause you can't be wrong," or, you know, those sort of things, which stems from a bunch of different things. But sometimes you don't even really realize that you're doing the things, even if you are consciously aware of what the right answer is.

Nicole: Exactly.

John: Yeah, but you're doing something different, and you don't think that's different 'cause in your mind, it's like justified in some way, or it's a habit.

Nicole: Right, yeah, exactly. And until you've gotten deep enough in it where you're like, "Oh, I also contributed to this, and maybe even started it," or, you know, "Multiple things were happening at one time." And yeah, I think we got to a lot of good core things to talk about as well, too, that might help other people more than just like, "Look at the problem together rather than attacking each other." Like, people say that, and it is true.

John: That we really realized how to do that better, and we can explain that better. And also, like I mentioned, it's important to talk the whole thing out, but also how you talk to each other can help you resolve things quicker than it being a whole day conversation.

Nicole: Yeah, and I think it's good that, you know, we didn't, like you said, we sometimes have very long conversations, but we always get to the bottom of it, right? And we don't sweep things under the rug. And that's something that I always like to use the whole flossing your teeth, you know, the tooth decay, the tartar analogy for relationships. What destroys most relationships or kicks people out of the honeymoon phase is that buildup of tartar from having fights, and then you sort of make up but you haven't fully resolved the things because you're not willing to talk for eight hours or 12 hours or however many. And so you're really, you might have even said sorry to each other, and you might even be sorry, but you haven't actually resolved the issue, right? So you're sweeping it under the rug, and that's just resentment that's building up. Which I even had some of that we found out cleaned out. I was like, I just had this energy inside of me that just didn't feel like normal, and then after we talked about it, it was from me not, I guess, expressing fully what was bothering me and also, I guess, getting you to realize what or like talking through it enough so that you could understand why I was emotionally backed up.

John: Yeah, because I acted in ways in our conversation that I've never acted and felt crazy to me.

Nicole: Yeah, but it was like this built-up like emotions that from previous conversations that because our conversations are sometimes really long or sometimes they get derailed like in very early and talk about some other bigger issue, which is important, but some of those early emotions that I want to bring up and talk to you get kind of overlooked because we've gone so far in this other direction, right? And so they kind of stay there. Like I'm not hoarding them because I'm like, okay, let's just get over it, but by the time we have the length of our conversations, I kind of even forget to bring up what it was, or like now we're so far in this other direction that it's like, how do I bring this back up? Or, you know, if I bring it up, is it going to just cause a loop of the same conversation that we just did? So I realized that the way that I was kind of shoving things under the rug or had things built up, I didn't even realize was really happening because I was also glad that we had resolved an issue, and so I thought that that was the bigger problem, but I didn't realize that the issue that I would come to you originally, even though it wasn't as big as the bigger problem, those emotions were still there and they got skipped over by both of us. And so then I had this like, like I'm telling you, was I felt like a kid that had sugar. I was like, I just need to shake myself. Like I need to shake, but I also like dance, and dance does help me kind of get out some of that emotional energy that I normally might have left over, and I didn't get to dance that week, maybe that's what it was. I don't know. I'm so used to like, you know, letting it out because it felt more of like a I need to move right now. It wasn't like I was angry, like in the sense of like I need to punch something. It was just like I need to like move my body because it was like so welled up inside of me, but I didn't. But also, like that's your body telling you, hey, like something is going on, like you've bottled some things up, and now you feel like you need to just shake it out. Like, right, your body can also give you hints that things that you have going on that you might not even realize, but and it turned out to be a good thing, like I was telling you because, you know, don't feel like it's a good thing delved into your psychology of the kind of perfectionism and, you know, based on your childhood and how you had felt, you kind of developed this pattern of being afraid of making a mistake or being wrong or being perceived as bad or wrong, meaning that if you're wrong, you did something wrong, someone thinks you did something wrong, then they can't, you can't be loved anymore, you're not. And so it was kind of good that you went off the rails a little bit to see that it's okay, that I'm still going to love you. I'm not even going to be offended by that. It wasn't okay, but I understand what you're like.

John: Yeah, but it is, it's part of the human. It's not something that you want to try and do, or that you want to make a habit of, but it's also like you do need to, as a human, have the freedom to make mistakes and or to do things that like to not necessarily hold it in sometimes. Sometimes you just let it out and still feel like you're okay, that you're still loved. Right, again, it's not that I'm saying that this is the way that you should act, right, on it, but at the same time, for someone who's struggling with that, right, I think that was a good thing because then you could see, okay, even if I go off the rails, and I think this is honestly, you know, as I've talked to a lot of guys and, you know, have been in the space of the psychology in relationships and stuff for a long time, a lot of women, I think in general, are afraid that if a man, if my guy could see me at my worst, my craziest shit or whatever it is, then he wouldn't love me. If he really knew what I was really like when I'm not holding it all together, then he wouldn't love me, and it's like a deep insecurity. And so in some way, it's good to overcome that, to realize, no, no, it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't matter how whatever happens, however messed up you are in a moment at your worst, I still love you as much as at your best.

Nicole: I mean, I think you're very emotionally aware and emotionally intelligent person, and I do feel like, though, that some women, even with their husbands or their spouse, don't feel like that, though. Don't feel like, and so they don't have the safe space, and maybe they've never had somebody be like, it's fine, like I still love you. Like you are able to do that because of everything that you've learned, and men should come to you, and if they need help with that or anything like that.

John: Yeah, because you do a really good job, but at the same time, I think that it's fair to say that some women don't have that at all, and so they still do have to be somewhat afraid. Like, you're right, that when you do something like that, and you realize, oh, like he's really not upset, or he really doesn't love me less, or he really, you know, means what he's saying right now, like he's not judging.

John: Not all people have that, but you know, you need... So, how do you do that though? Like, if you're in a marriage, right, and your husband, as the wife, like you said, because it's normally the wife being like, "If he saw me act crazy, like what the..."

Nicole: Hell, how do they do it? Like, I'm lucky that you treated it the way that you treated it, but what would you say to women who don't have that with the person that they're with? I mean, I think that more women, again, maybe the man doesn't have necessarily the emotional intelligence, right? I mean, I study this; this is part of my life's work, right? Like both of us, we try to help people in this area, so it's not expected that every man is going to have necessarily the highest degree of emotional intelligence. But I do believe that most men, that are good men, think the same way. That if you ask a married man who cares about his wife and his family, you know, does he love his wife at her worst, he would say yes. And she's more afraid to show that. She's more afraid that she'll be rejected by that.

John: But does he show her that, do you think? Because I agree that he probably does love her, right? But in those moments, do you think he's making her feel loved? Because I think that's... It's kind of like, yeah, you have to be very careful with this. I'm going to be very careful with this. And you know, I'm saying it as a woman who did do this last week. It is kind of like a kid throwing a temper tantrum a little bit. And yeah, it can go multiple ways. And I feel like a lot of times, men are like, "Suck it up," you know, or like, "Get over it." What... Like, I'm not saying they use those exact words, but that's what it feels like to a woman when she's in that moment.

Nicole: Yeah, and even if she knows he loves her, or vice versa, or things like that, that's not really going to help the situation, right? But if he, if she's acting that way and he hugs her, or he's like, "It's going to be okay," or something like that, that will actually make her feel like you love her despite those things. So, you do almost have to treat it like a kid having a temper tantrum. Maybe that men need to do that so they'll have a little bit more empathy.

John: Well, it's... Yeah, because it's interesting. And again, we have to be careful with it because it can be misinterpreted. But when I am coaching guys, a lot of times I will, like, you know, say off the record, like I wouldn't say this publicly, which I'm saying publicly now, but you know, a tempered-down version of it, which is that you have to think of your relationship with a woman a lot like, like I said, a father figure before. And I think that's in the sense that you're dealing with someone who is an emotional creature, right? Which is also the same with children, in the sense that they haven't developed; they're not as in control of their emotions, whether they're boy or girl. So, it's not a derogatory thing in any way. It's just that the patience, right? It's like... But here's the thing, again, if you use that same analogy, because, and this is what the distinction is, and this is why it matters and why it's okay in your case, but it's not okay in some cases, right? Is that if you have a child that's throwing a tantrum, right? It's if that child is constantly acting out, throwing tantrums, doesn't care what they say, just they're entitled, right? That's why they're doing it because they're entitled, right? That's a problem, and you need to deal with that problem, right? Encouraging that behavior is not good. Not... You don't say to that child, "Oh, just let it out, like go ahead." But if you have a child that is frustrated, right? That's not entitled but is like just unable to control themselves, they're very upset, they're throwing themselves at the floor because they're very upset, they're not acting in such a way as to be entitled. You, if you can tell, it's a high of distress that they can't emotionally deal with, so that's how they're trying to get it out. That you want to encourage and support them, not condemn them for displaying that emotion, right? Hopefully, they'll learn to emotionally regulate, and that doesn't become a regular occurrence. But even the best of us, at times, break down and fall on the floor and scream, you know? Emotions are a lot. And I think a thing for men to understand is how they feel when their emotions are at a high, right? Because men, a lot of times, talk about that they don't get the empathy from women in their lives, right? And we can go into that as well, too, a little bit later in the episode because I think that's important. But men have to, they can even look at their own instances where they've been really emotional and how it feels like, even if you're in control of yourself and you have the wisdom, you know the right thing to do, you don't always do that because the emotions kind of take over. You're so wrapped up in them that you don't, like you know when you have a good enough grip on it, but like you said, sometimes it's just such a high level or things have built up that you kind of let things out that maybe you wouldn't. And it's not saying that, like, right, it's acceptable to do it all the time, or, you know, I still think that words, like really hurtful words, still shouldn't be said because they really shouldn't even be popping into your head, like, "I hate you." Like, you would be devastated if your husband got angry or was trying to prove a point or something and was like, "I hate you," as a woman. Yeah, so like those things are still not acceptable, in my opinion. But, you know, needing to shake yourself because you're frustrated or something, or like, you know, things like that, it's not even like you screamed, called me names, or, you know, or said anything, you know, to that effect, just to set the record straight. But that's that entitled, right? So, it's like, right, if a woman is getting mad and not trying, not controlling her emotions at all, like her anger, and she's just screaming at her husband, calling him names, saying, "I hate you," right? Intentionally trying to hurt somebody when you're hurt is wrong. He doesn't need to go over there and give her a hug and say, "It's going to be okay." He needs to set a boundary. If she's having a hard time and she's so frustrated that she screams, or she's acting irrational and crying, or whatever it is, or shaking, that's a different thing. That's a different thing. And that's, you know, again, it's not necessarily the thing that you want to necessarily handle your emotions in that way, but that's where empathy is needed in that case. It's not an entitled right because there's a problem if a woman thinks, "Oh, I can just be emotional, so I can do whatever, say whatever," and I...

John: The support of that, and I don't know what damage I'm doing to someone. It's another thing where a woman might even say a few things, right, or whatever, but she's not trying to. She doesn't come from an entitled space, and then when she does it, she feels bad about it because she didn't want to do that or unleash her emotions in a bad way on other people. So, if that's the difference, right, so one is, again, like I said, if you did the child example of, it's "I don't care who I hurt by this," the other's like, "I'm messed up. I didn't mean to do this. I don't want to be this way. I have true sorrow for doing this type of thing." And so, one of them, you know, you have to handle that in a different way. That's what it really comes down to.

Nicole: Right, which I'm sure is hard for men because I think they have a hard time in general with women being emotional. And I think when they realize and accept that they married an emotional creature that is going to be emotional no matter what, but between the two of you, both working on things that you can work on, you can navigate those things easier. And like you said, you can understand, okay, is she trying to hurt me and saying intentionally mean things? I need to have a boundary at that point, be like, "I'm not going to continue if you talk to me this way." Right? "Well, we can continue talking when you calm down and you're not saying things like this," versus like you said, someone that's maybe just having an outburst of frustration, right, but is upset that they even did that. Like they have the awareness, and it wasn't malicious and things like that. So first, I would say that men need to understand that women are going to be emotional, and they need to accept that, and it's not a bad thing. It's what makes her a woman, right? But it is potentially going to be a lot to navigate in some ways when you're in a conversation with a woman or having an argument or things like that. But there are ways to handle it, and that sometimes what she needs in those frustrated moments is a hug and for you to tell her you love her or something where she knows that you will love her even at her worst, and then she'll have less of those moments.

John: Exactly. It's almost like you don't think it would work that way. I'm sure men are like, "That doesn't seem like it makes much sense," but it makes all the sense. Well, one common human thing, and I deal with this all the time with coaching guys and trying to dissect what they do, like why do people do this, and we've talked about this a little bit on the podcast before, is that we do this, like all of us do this. We recreate the bad experiences in our life in order to get a different outcome so we can feel validated or okay, right? So that's why, you know, you date the wrong people over and over again. It's like, "Why do you keep on dating jerks?" or "Why do you keep on dating someone who's avoidant?" And it's like, "Why do you keep on because you dated someone who was avoidant and you had a bad outcome, and so now if you can get someone else who's avoidant and this time you can get them to not be avoidant and have a good outcome, it makes your life feel good. You proved a point, right? Like, you're a good enough person. It makes you feel like enough, right? Because that person made you feel like not enough, and even if someone else comes along and they treat you good, it doesn't make you feel like enough. You have to find the bad person and make them do the right thing, which makes you enough because that's where the validation got taken away. And so it's like fixing people. You can't fix people. You can't make them what you want them to be. And so it's the same thing, like what you're saying, is that a woman might keep on repeating this, like, right, if he doesn't love me at my worst, I have to keep being at my worst to make sure that I'm safe. And if I'm bad, he'll still love me. And so as a man, you might be like, "Well, if I hug her when she's screaming, and she might not even like the hug at that point, but if you persist in showing her that she truly believes that you're still loving her at her worst, it will solve that loop that keeps on going, right? Again, not cycle, right? Because now she feels like, okay, he actually does love me. But if she does feel like he loves me at my worst, somehow subconsciously, this is not a conscious thing, it's a subconscious thing, she's going to keep putting herself in a situation where she's testing to see, right? And every woman needs safety too, especially with them being vulnerable. And I especially think that it's hard for women these days to be vulnerable because they've had to put their guard up when they're single, yeah, to not get hurt by men, you know? And then that, it's really hard to let that down, and women really only want to let it down for a man who makes her feel safe and accepted and loved no matter what. And so if you're not giving your wife that, then that's where you're running into a lot of struggles too, which she should be giving you that as well. Like, this isn't a one-sided thing, right? And I know your situation in the conversation, you felt like I didn't understand you, and that I didn't give you the space to talk about your problems and things like that, and I was taking the things that you were saying personally, which some of that was the language that figured out now that you were using that did feel a little bit more of like an attack on me. And so then I had to double down on defending myself, right, which just led to more complications, and it was exasperated by the kind of trauma that you had about perfection, and if you make a mistake, you can't be loved. And so, you know, I had felt many times that if I express anything that was negative about some interaction that we had, that you would go hyper defensive on it and not listen to me anymore. And that was the thing that I was struggling with until we figured that out, and we figured out on both levels, right? So one is, like we talked about, is that there is this trauma that you have, and we were able to identify that. And then, you know, and I feel like you realize, okay, yes, I am doing this, and this is why, but I'm still loved, right? Which still, it's not just instantly cured. It's like, you know, like, but now you, I think hopefully you feel you have more of the freedom to even act out, and you're still going to be like, you know, it's like, no, I'm not doing that again. Well, I'm not saying it was a learning moment, yeah, but also, you know, like we were talking about too, the verbiage of it, because now that I'm aware of it too, which I, you know, it's kind of weird because I...

John: I was aware of it, but I didn't think of the solution, which is that I also need to watch the way that I say things so that you don't feel like they're going to be an attack when they're not meant to be. Let me be more careful in the delivery so that it really isn't perceived that way at all. You know what I mean? It takes understanding. We all have traumas. You need to understand your partner's trauma and work with that, not against it.

Nicole: That's very true. I mean, I can't even remember exactly what I came to talk about at first, but then I tried to express that something was bothering me, and that turned into you feeling like I don't trust you and I don't know who you are. Also, throughout our whole conversation last week, I still didn't get the first part resolved, the first thing that was bothering me. So that was also welling up inside of me, which was probably why I was upset. It had happened in multiple conversations of ours where I would come to you about something, and then you would get triggered by something I said and want to talk about a different issue in the middle of the conversation. By the end of it, I just didn't go back to that feeling, and I also was feeling like you wanted me to hold space for your emotions, but mine got skipped over in the beginning. A lot of women probably feel like they don't have the capacity to deal with their husband's emotions because there comes some points, sometimes it's all the time for women, MH. Sometimes it's every once in a while. It definitely wasn't all the time for me, but it was enough where I had shoved so much stuff down and felt like I had to be the non-emotional one to get the conversation to get anywhere. Then I didn't get my emotional release. As the emotional person in the relationship, that was really detrimental for a woman to not get her full emotional release because that's what we are. We are emotional, and so we need to get that out. When we would have these conversations, you would be like, "Are you even listening?" But I would be listening, and I'm like, "I don't want to say anything to cause you to be more emotional or more triggered." So I would listen to you, and then to the point where I would try to get to the point without being defensive, which was also hard because I hadn't gotten my grievance that I came to you for fixed. But I would eventually get to a point where you felt better, at least, and then by that point, I would be like, "I don't even know what I said, and I still feel this thing, but I don't know how to bring it up because now it's so far buried under all this other stuff."

John: And I think this is a common pattern. I think a lot of people will relate to this because I often felt the same way. The reason why is because, look, you come to me with issue A, right? In the process of presenting it, I'm triggered, and now there it becomes issue B. Now when I'm talking about issue B, it triggers you because of something I say. Now there's issue C, and now that one spins me off into issue D, and then E and F. So we're not having a full conversation; we're jumping to this one and this one. It's like there's a stack of things, and then when we try to unwind the stack and get it's like, "I don't even remember. I know I'm really frustrated, but I don't even know why." It's somewhere buried in there because we jump to so many places. One of the things that we had talked about, which I think is a good thing to implement, is don't bring up a different thing. Address that separately afterwards because it's something that we both have the tendency to do. At one point, the thing had spiraled into some girl had texted me from a random number who knew me, and I had told her, "Yeah, get lost. I'm married, happily married." And I was upset about the way that when I brought it to you, and it was like, that's a completely different thing. Like, I could have had a different conversation with you about that. We could have had this conversation, dealt with the thing that you were talking about, and then at some other point, I could have said, "Hey, by the way, there's something that isn't sitting well with me that I'd like to talk to you about." But by putting it into this one, well, and you did that after I tried to come to you and hugged you and kissed you and told you I loved you. Instead of saying any of that back or making me feel like you were in the same place as me, you decided to open up a new grievance. So that's also, yeah, like, the way you just described it too is how a lot of people get it. It feels almost like a fencing match or something. You're just in defense, you're just defending, and I'm defending, so nothing's actually getting resolved. Then people are just throwing out things that hurt them, and then you're defending that because everybody's just trying to bring up all the things that have hurt them in the whole well and history of the world. And what happens, at least the thing I noticed was like, because you said, "Yeah, you hugged me," and then I was like, "I'm being listened to. Let me talk about this thing." But that's not which probably would have worked if we did it the right way that we'll get into because we need to get into that as well too. But yeah, it was just a big mixture of a lot of stuff, but I think we did learn a lot from it. Like you said, at least it is exhausting to talk about and defend and just be in this emotional place for as long as we were, but at least we get to the bottom of it. But yeah, even during that conversation, I was like, "I think we need to learn how to communicate in a different way," because there had been plenty of times where we are ruining a whole day by talking, and for sure, I mean, it's not ruining because we are learning things, but it's ruined in the sense of we didn't show up here and like, we're not even eating dinner at a decent time because we're still talking about something, or you know, like we're exhausted because we've been in this emotional state for so long. So even during that conversation, I was like, "You know, we need to figure out a better way to do this."

John: We're not slamming doors and screaming at each other, you know. We're talking and talking in circles, and that's what we do. Then eventually, which is also frustrating, right? Like to feel like you're talking in circles because there was one point where you were trying to talk to me about your problems, and then you just kept saying the same stuff over and over again. Instead of it making sense to me the first time you said it, when you kept saying it, I'm like, is he trying to hurt me by keep saying this? What is his point? Then I tried to be like, you know, I feel like you're focusing on the negative. We've talked about this, and then you're like, you're not listening to me, you know? So it's like even if you're trying to do the right thing in the moment or trying to help somebody, it can get so jumbled up that now you're back in another loop. That's where we ended up when I was like, I feel like you're kind of focusing on, like, can we move past this? I want to help you, and you're like, you're not listening to me, you're not really listening. So it's so easy to be disconnected from one another even if you feel like you're very connected to the person that you're with, right? And so that's why, you know, the things that we learned after this conversation, I feel like will help people because they helped us realize what we were doing wrong and how we can do better and have more emotional capacity at the end of a conversation rather than wearing ourselves out by talking all day.

Nicole: And I think one of the things with that too is, you know, one of the lessons learned was the idea that when someone is sharing where they're at or trying to be understood, as a person listening, you don't get to say when they're done. They get to say when they're done, and it doesn't always make sense. It's like when you're trying to get out what's going on, sometimes you need to just keep on going for a while. And the other person needs to just listen and empathize and hear you fully because then a person tends to keep on going until they feel like they're fully understood, right? And that's really when their emotions are validated. A lot of times, I think people will want to cut it short. They'll say, you know, the person A will say, "Alright, this is what you did, this hurt me," whatever. Person B says, "Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that, I don't want to hurt you," and then they're like, person B's like, "Okay, so it's done, it's settled." But it's not, because A still has, even though you've said I'm sorry, the person still needs to, which you've been on both sides of that, so you know how it is. But I do think that wording things is also important because it's also not fair, and I'm not saying that you did this, but it's not fair to just shit on your partner, right? Or be like, "You never do this, and you're always like this, and I can't talk to you, and you're just so difficult." It is insanely hard for someone to sit there and listen to that. If you talk about your vulnerability and how you're feeling and things that aren't necessarily an attack on the person, and you might not think it's an attack, but any man, if they heard a woman talk to them like that, it would be really hard for them to sit there and be like, "She's disrespecting me, she's just trying to shit on me." Any person would think that. So that's why even if you're in an emotional state, it is important to talk about how you're hurt rather than what the other person is doing. Everybody knows that psychologists say all this sort of stuff. They recommend language, and it is hard to do when you're in an argument and there's a lot of emotions and there's a lot of things going on, but it is important to try to remember that. People do it too because they're afraid to be vulnerable. They're afraid to say the thing, like, "When this happened, I felt really hurt because there's a part of me that thinks if I make a mistake, then you don't love me anymore." That's the hard thing to say. That's a true vulnerability. And people put, I think we actually mentioned this in one of the other episodes too, they would rather throw out something like, "You don't listen to me," right in front of the real vulnerability because this is almost like another guard. It's like another blockage, right? That they're like, "Let me send this army person out and fight them instead of me sending this soft teddy bear part of me out," right? Because that can get hurt the most. But people, and we realize this, people are way more easily able to empathize with you and relate to you because everybody has their own vulnerable soft parts inside of them when you come at it from there. And the "I" language is not enough, right? Because you can still use the "I" language and still slap someone in the face. "I feel like you never listen to me." That's a way to do it. Or even if you take the "you" out of "never listen to me," if you say, "I feel like I'm never listened to," right? Still, that's still pointy, it's still across. So it's really the key, like you said, is the vulnerability behind it because every frustration you have, everything, and sometimes it's hard to tap into what it is. Like sometimes I even struggle with that. I'm like, "I know what I should, you know, but it's like, what is the actual cause?" All the anger, all the frustration always comes from a hurt or a fear or both, right? And so you got to say, "Okay, if I feel like I've never been listened to or I'm hardly ever listened to, what is the actual hurt or fear behind it?" Which is that maybe the fear is, "I don't feel like I'm worthy of being listened to," or "I'm afraid no one cares what I have to say," or something. "I'm afraid you'll stop loving me," or "I'm afraid that you might not care about, you know, like these are the things that are the real truth, right?" And that's if you can really tap into that because then it really is about you, it's about your experience and what you're feeling and what you're scared of. That's the real vulnerability because when you say something that you're scared of, now that fear, someone is not going to react negatively to that because now they're responsible for how they're going to respond to your fear, right? Because you've done the right thing, you're being vulnerable. So now if someone lashes out at you, right, they're the ones that you.

John: I know people are trying to hurt you when you're being vulnerable, and it's not about tit for tat. I'm not saying that, but when you are vulnerable, you're kind of, I don't want to say invincible, but you can't do anything wrong, right? So, you don't have to worry about that. You're putting that out in the middle of an argument because when you're in the middle of an argument, there are these emotions, and you're like, am I going to say the wrong thing or make this worse? But if you're vulnerable, you don't have to worry about all that. You just have to worry about speaking your truth, right? And you don't know how the other person's going to respond. Like you said, I agree that people typically respond in a more empathizing and compassionate way when you show your vulnerable side. That's what we were going to name the podcast, I remember. We were talking about it when we were talking about this in bed, was "Vulnerability Makes You Invincible." I think that was the other episode.

Nicole: Oh, maybe that was the other. I don't know, but we said it at some point. But it does make that the case because if you say the thing that actually scares you, that actually hurts you, if it's the truth of really where this is coming from, then even if you get a negative reaction to that, it can't really hurt you because you have taken the weight off your own shoulders by putting it out there. There's nothing to defend because you're naked, and that's your responsibility. And I do think, too, a tip that would be good for us and for anybody is, because when you're in an argument, it feels very fast-paced. You're like, I have to say something, especially if you're in defense mode. You're like, I got to defend myself. I need to say something right. Like, if you're trying, and everybody should be trying to do the right thing and be vulnerable instead, right? Don't feel like you can't be like, hey, can I take a minute to look inside and understand what's really bothering me? And like, take a moment, stop the conversation. I mean, I'm not saying like go somewhere else, but sit there for a minute and really think about, okay, I feel this. Where is that coming from inside of me? And then start the conversation back up and be like, okay, so I realized what I'm actually afraid of is that if I act this way around you, then I'm not going to be loved by you anymore. And that's my own sort of fear. Like, I'm afraid of that because of either things that have happened in the past or just something that I have always believed and might not be the correct thing. You know, like, I have this fear, or this scares me, or this hurt me because of this. So, take a minute to really dig inside yourself to figure out what it is. That'll also save you a lot of time doing the wrong thing, right? And you can even vocalize it. You can even say, I, my body, or my mind wants to say this, which I know is the wrong thing to say. So, let me figure out what is the actual fear or hurt behind it that is causing me. I feel like you're going to get more empathy with that because you're being honest about, you know, I want to say this thing that would probably be hurtful to you, but I'm not going to say that because I know that's not the truth. The truth is something that is actually in me.

John: It's hard for someone to react negatively to that. They feel like, okay, you're being really honest with me. We're operating at a different level. But, I think also, at the same time, though, on the other side of it, right, so you as a person who's presenting something, an issue, or how you're feeling, what we said all applies, right? You want to make sure that you're definitely not using the "you" language. You're using the "I" language, and you're figuring out the fear and the vulnerability that's at the bottom of it. But on the other side of it, if you're listening to someone and they're trying to share, you've got to not care what they're saying, right, unless it's extremely abusive. But you got to realize that, okay, the person who's saying this, there's some kind of fear or hurt that's beneath what they're actually saying, even though the words might seem offensive. Let me let them get that out. Let me give them the space because they might not have the capacity. It's something that you have to work on, but by giving them that grace, then you make them feel heard and understood. And then it's more likely if you do that, then after you do that, they're going to say, oh wow, I didn't mean to take it all out on you. I shouldn't have said things that way. Or even then, you can say afterwards, hey, now that you're feeling better, I want to talk about the way that you express that, and this was my experience of that. Or you now, you're dealing with your thing in the right way because you're then training, you're showing by example how to be rather than trying to tell. Because if you're on the other side of it and someone's expressing things in the wrong way, nothing that you say is going to change that, right? If they're saying, you did this to me, and then you say, well, maybe you should say it differently, they're feeling not understood, they're feeling unheard. But if you give them the grace, let them say the thing, realize that having your own emotional maturity and realize there's a fear or hurt below this, that's not what they really are trying to communicate. They just don't know how. Give them that space to do it, and then you go back and show them how it's done by because now they've hurt you by doing it the right way. That changes the behavior versus anything else you do is never going to change the behavior.

Nicole: I agree with what you're saying, but I also think that a lot of people are learning these things for the first time. And I do think it's important to try to learn it the correct way first because what you're saying is someone's still going to have to learn how to say things the right way. Like, they're still going to eventually have to learn that. So, it's good you mention that because you don't have to be perfect right away. And I think that's the point you're trying to make. But I don't think that it's necessarily a wrong thing to try to learn this from the very beginning in the right way because then you'll have less to have to continue to learn. Like, you're always going to continue to have to learn things, right? People might watch this and be like, God, I have to learn more stuff. I'm always going to be learning stuff, but it.

John: It's for your peace, it's for the betterment of your life. I get what you're saying, like if you're just trying to focus on listening to your partner, right, and you're doing that part first. But I think you also still should pay attention to the words that you're saying and just realize that it's probably not going to be perfect the first times that you're doing it. But you are eventually going to have to learn how to talk in a way that doesn't hurt the person that you're talking to. So it's still going to be something that you're going to have to work on. So you can either choose to focus on that while you're learning and just know that it's not going to be perfect, or just focus on one point of that, which might be listening, and then realize though that you're going to have to work on the other part eventually too.

Nicole: Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that. My perspective, where I'm coming from on that, is you can only do you; you can only control you. So you, as a person, can control your response, speak the right way like we just said, but also be empathetic for someone who's not speaking the right way, right? Because those are both of the things that you can do. You can't make them speak the right way, even if they're saying hurtful things. I'm just saying though that like if people realize that if they focus on trying to add that in while they're learning, it will help. But you're right, you can't control how someone else responds, and you can only control how you respond, and that is important to make that classification. It's the same way that I tell people all the time that I'm coaching, don't ever criticize anyone because most people will not take it. At the same time, if someone criticizes you, thank them and welcome as much criticism as you can because it's valuable for you.

John: So it's like, you know, it's not about them, it's about you. This is how you should behave. And so it's the same thing. You should be an empathetic listener, giving them grace even when people aren't saying things the right way. But you should say things the right way so that someone doesn't have to be an empathetic listener because you're not hitting them with harsh words to start with. Because that's the thing, and that's where we even get, you know, almost every fight or argument comes down to trying to change, focusing on what you're doing, not what I'm doing. Because if we're both focused on what we're doing, it doesn't matter. You can't get into an argument if you have the right state of mind to say that I don't care what the other person does, I'm only going to do what I know is the right way to respond, which is hard to do when you're triggered. But you can't argue with someone who is set on that, and that's how you know you're not there yet because if you're getting into arguments, it is your fault. Because if you were at the point where you said, "I'm only going to focus on me and just doing the right things," it doesn't matter what they do. It would be impossible to argue with you. You can't argue with that person.

Nicole: So the last thing I think we should add to this conversation is something that we also came up with, and it goes along with this, is that if a person's coming to you with something that's upsetting them, let them fully talk first. Because that will get you out of the habit or the instances where you want to hijack the situation with now your problem. And so, you know, allow that person to talk about what has upset them to the full extent, and even it's good to repeat it back to them. So like, "So you're saying that when I did this, you felt this way, or it brought up this fear or this hurt inside of you, is that correct?" Because then someone will also feel like you're actually listening to them if you can repeat it back. Right, then when, like you said earlier, when they've talked it out to the point that they feel better, they feel heard, they feel understood, then if you have anything that you want to bring up, then now it's your turn, and they should also be listening to you the same way.

John: Yeah, so it's like taking turns, and then that also, all of this that we've talked about today, is truly what I feel like they say when they're like, "It's you guys against the problem rather than you guys against each other." Because I know every single couple, I'm sure, has at some point felt like the argument is you two against each other, like you're fighting each other. Like I said, it's like a fencing match or something, you're just like defend, defend, defend, block the punches, throw the punch, block the punch. Everyone has felt that way, and rather when you're working as a team, one, you're coming from a more vulnerable place because it's not about, "I want to hurt them. I want to say how they hurt me. I want to show them how hurt I am," right, like in that way by being hurtful back. It's more so, you know, opening up in this safe space that is your relationship, being like, "Hey, I'm afraid of this," right, and knowing that your partner is going to probably have a better response to you acting that way rather than fighting, like throwing the punches, and allowing them to have the space to talk it all the way through, and you actively listening to them. And then you can have your knowing that you will have your time also as well to talk about what you need to talk about but not waiting for it, right, not like, "Okay, just being like I'm ready to talk now," when talking, you know, actively listening.

Nicole: Because the end goal is to make your relationship better. Like yes, you'll feel better because you'll get whatever emotion off your chest, but the end goal is that you guys will be better as a couple. You'll also handle a situation differently, even if it's only a little bit differently. But also, you're going to have another argument. There's going to be something that comes up, there's going to be some more emotions. So try to remember how the last one ended because that's normally where you get a lot of good insight of what you should do better next.

John: Yeah, and apply that in the moment, even if your spouse isn't doing it, isn't doing the things that you guys talked about. Like you said, you can make a difference on how you handle those situations. It's like "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie, another book for you, King, but uh, "seek first to understand, then to be understood." If we keep that in mind, and that's the thing, because the thing is also, no matter how crazy someone may seem or how crazy their logic may seem or whatever it is, everyone does things for a reason or feels something for a reason. It might seem illogical or crazy, but it's not. So if you seek to

John: Understand, someone, there's somewhere where they're coming from. Maybe the understanding is something that happened to them when they were five, and that's but there's still a reason why they're not just doing things randomly. They're doing it because they feel a certain way because of something. So, if you can get to the bottom of it, you might not agree with it, and they might be doing the wrong thing, but you can understand them whether they're right or wrong, or you agree with them or not. Understanding, and most people really just want to be understood. They don't even need you to agree with them; they just want to feel understood. And that's right, the thing about that, and like you said, the one step further we talked about this too, is that ladies go first, right? Ladies first. So, anytime, and that's something that I'm trying to implement to remember, is anytime there's something going on between us, let you get all of your stuff out and completely dealt with before I say anything about anything that I'm...

Nicole: Well, I mean, I do think it's whoever brings up the issue, right? Because if you bring up an issue to me, I'm not necessarily even going to have anything to talk to you about, yeah, unless something gets brought up in what you're saying, and now I have to talk about that. But if that doesn't even happen, then I don't really have like, why would I go first if you're like, hey, I'm feeling this, you know what I mean? I think because there might be something that you're holding on to that would make it difficult for because I think again, as a man, I can compartmentalize things a lot easier. And so, if you have some other thing that this brought up, it would be better to stop, address that, let's get you right, and then, you know. But most of the time, it is a woman bringing up a thing anyway, so it's like, you know.

John: It was funny too because I just was on the plane on our trip, was writing a script for my video about Brave, and talking about how an acronym for the way to handle things as a man, which is to basically breathe, reconfirm the, no, I forgot my own thing, but like validate emotion, you know, empathize, and assess, or was it assess the situation? I don't know, I got to go back and because I just made this thing up, but the purpose of it was to really make sure that she's understood and her emotions are validated before you get to the point of dealing with how did she say the things right because at the end, you're going to get a much more empathetic response, right? Because now you've addressed and when, and again, it just comes down to when a person feels understood and like their emotions were validated, they're much more empathetic to whatever is going on with you because they want to return the favor. But if they don't feel like it, you know, they're never then they're just going to fight too, and there's no way that I think that a woman can get through. She's not going to be able to see what's going on with you if because it is a stronger thing, the emotion, you know, you can't look past what her emotional experience is. So, you have to deal with that as a man first because if you don't, you're just not going to be met with the proper response, especially if there's any kind of correction in there or something that it's not going to be met right until she's heard, and she'll have more like you said emotional capacity for you when you come to talk to her because a lot of issues that guys face with she doesn't care about my feelings is probably because she's been dismissed with her feelings or like, you know, she's having to shove things under the rug because things aren't fully being resolved for her. And so then when you're bringing your grievance up, she can't even really think about it because she's still got a bunch of mound of dirt under the rug, right? You know what I mean? She can't add more; she doesn't want to add more to that.

Nicole: Yeah, and I'm not saying that's always the case, but I think if guys realize like the other episode where I said that when guys are like just get over it or like why are you acting like this, that's the same for a woman as if she's like, I don't want to have sex with you tonight, right? Like, guys don't even really realize they're doing that to her, and so she doesn't have the capacity to deal with your emotions because she hasn't even resolved hers a lot of the time. So, it's not like her emotions matter more, but she is the emotional being in the relationship, and so it looks a little but...

John: That's also, I think, women to focus a lot on what they're saying to men because men do value respect the most, and so if you're disrespectful in what you're saying, even during a conversation, he's less likely to be able to empathize with you because now you've disrespected him, which matters a lot to him. So, women do need to try to not say names and be disrespectful and really pay attention to the things that they're saying because that does mean a lot to men, just like it means a lot to them to feel loved when they're going through a hard time. And one of the things in that script, which you, when I make the video, which you're going to help me act out, is that I present two scenarios, right? And I purposely presented this way, one where the guy comes home from work, and he stayed late, and the wife says, "Why do you work so late, and why don't you care?" Like, you know, and he's bombarded by this, right? The real feeling, and then he says, well, he justifies, he just says, "Oh no, I had to work; it's really important," whatever. But that seems like the right response because it's the logical response, right? But it's not valid, and she approached it the wrong way; she came with accusations. So then she responds with, "I had to talk to your mother, and she's annoying," and you know, and that's really disrespectful, right? And then he says, "How dare you? How could you say that?" Right? And then she says, "[Expletive]," you know, whatever, it's like now she's really set off, right? And it's like, and it goes nowhere, and the guy's feeling like, okay, I just came home from work, she just attacked me with this, I'm trying to work for the family, and then she like steps it up and disrespects me and insults my mother, and I'm just supposed to, you know, how do I even handle that situation? But then I show the way that you do handle it as a man, which is he comes home from work, she says the thing that's offensive, like, "Where you been?" Whatever, you know, and then instead of him even justifying at all, he just says, "Oh wow, I can see that you're upset. I don't want you to feel like I don't love you." I'm sensing that maybe, you know, I forget the exact words I use, but essentially immediately validating even though she's presented it in the wrong way.

John: He does that, then she says, "Oh well, you know, I guess I was just afraid that you didn't want to be with me or whatever, you don't care." And instead of responding, now she's already stepped it down, right? And then he validates and says, "Oh, of course, you know I love you." And now she's like, "Okay, I'm sorry." And then, at the very end, he says, "Look, now there's something else I want to talk to you about. When I did come in the door and you said this to me, that wasn't the right way to do that. I felt like I have been working hard at work, and the reason why I was there was a valid reason." And in that accusation, now she's receptive to hear what he tried to do at the very beginning, which was not going to fly when she was in that mood because he needed to validate her emotions, even though she did the wrong thing. And that's the thing about it, as a man, which again, I wrote that script, and then I goofed. I didn't... Well, we each have different things that we need to work on because we're operating from different places.

Nicole: Yeah, so, but that's the thing. Alright, I guess that's... Well, we don't have a thing for the end because we already did it for the whole episode, but yeah. Well, I mean, this week has been good. We've been...

John: Oh, that's true. I guess it was last week.

Nicole: Yeah, because that was last week. But I think we learned, and you incorporated those things into our conversations. And it's easier to understand when you do it the right way. It's easier to get the things that you need to work on, and it doesn't feel shameful. It feels like, "Oh yeah, this feels better to do it this way." And like, "I feel better, they feel better, our relationship feels better." So that's why I hope people aren't watching this and thinking, "I have to work on more things." But it will make you feel better, and it will make your relationship better, and that is worth tweaking the things that will help you.

John: Yeah, and the things exist whether you're aware of them or not, so it's better to be aware of them than to not. So it's like, yeah, you can continue the cycle you're on, or, and it's exhausting, or make changes, and it will get better. And you'll have less arguments too because you'll be able to bring up anything in a better way that won't even cause it to spiral into 10-hour long conversations.

Nicole: Right, exactly. So, leave us some reviews on iTunes. We do appreciate the reviews that we've gotten.

John: Banana Fingers, yeah. Banana Fingers is good. And hopefully, it's helpful for us to be transparent about these things. And again, maybe if you just watch some of the episodes, you think, "Oh, these guys fight all the time." But that's not the case. We rarely ever do. But when we do have a long discussion, we don't get into the nasty screaming and name-calling and any of those things. But, you know, we are working on the things that we have to work on.

Nicole: Well, I think it's our responsibility as a relationship podcast to show all of the things. And I'm sure a lot of people don't, and I can understand why it's hard to come sit here and talk about all the things you did wrong and the way that your relationship has problems. But it's like, I don't feel bad about it because I know that it's a human thing. Like, every relationship's going to have problems. And the fact that ours are still so, even less intense than a lot of people's... I mean, people probably think talking for 10 hours is intense, and it is. But the fact that I can talk to my husband in an argument for 10 hours without yelling at him or things like that, I'm sure a lot of people can't say that they can do that. So, you know, we have to show all the sides to show you guys why the things that we bring up and talk about matter. Why you should think about them. Like, I understand you're not going to take all of our advice. Do I think you should take our advice? Yes. But, you know, people are people, and you can take some and you can leave some. But we're trying to show you how it makes us better and how this dynamic is the better way to do it, and you can't do that without showing all of the parts.

John: And I think, you know, one person had commented on the clip show, they're like, "I'm not going to... What are your guys' qualifications? I just talk about stuff on the internet. I don't listen to people that..." And it's like, the qualification is real. What I say real, like that, real-life experience. Like this, like you're seeing the transparent... You know, there's a lot of therapists, there's a lot of licensed, but there's a lot of psychologists that have messed up relationships that coach people, that write books, but they have the education. And like, I mean, that part is so important because even in the beginning of this conversation, I told you everything that I should have done correctly. So I have the knowledge, but I'm not doing it. And so, yeah, it is nice to have a degree and an education and the knowledge of these things, but unless you're doing them and you're living these experiences, it's not the same. Like, experience will always... Just having the knowledge.

Nicole: Exactly. Yeah, because you can say all the right things and tell people the right things, but if it's not coming from your true experience, there's going to be something missing there. There are the subtleties of it that don't get conveyed that only someone who is a practitioner can truly convey. And so that's where we... And we learn it, and the viewers will realize that too. Like, the second that you use some of our advice or some advice that you read or whatever and actually put it into use, you'll realize the difference between having the information and utilizing the information. So we're not professionals, we don't have a degree, but we're professional relationship doers.

John: And exactly, we're here to show you the full experience. Look at this. Where do you think that this... We just picked this up at 7-Eleven? I mean, we were given this by ourselves, Best Couple Award, you know. There you go.

Nicole: So they don't just give that to anyone. You have to buy that.

John: Yeah, it's very expensive. For $7, you know. There you go. There's our credentials right there.

Nicole: Here we are.

John: Alright, see you next time.