John: Which is better? I cheated on my ex-girlfriend because there was a hotter woman that I liked, or I cheated on my ex-girlfriend because I wanted her to break up with me? I mean, you've got to pick between one of those two, Nicole.

Nicole: I know, but pick one. Just pick. Like between those two, which is the lesser of evil?

John: I'm not choosing. Like you're telling me to pick between cheaters. It's like, no, none of it's good. Like, it's equally bad.

Nicole: Okay, but you don't have to pick for yourself. You just have to rate. They're both zero. It's a better reason. You need to tell the woman that you cheated because you need to be honest.

John: All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole: That's true. I feel like you just look cold right now. You're like this.

John: I am cold. You're like sitting there like when you're trying to not look cold, but you're cold.

Nicole: Yeah, exactly. What's going on for our intro? I mean, we're always a little bit off because these don't come out till later, but the drones. What are they for? The drone, what are they looking for there?

John: It's something. I mean, it's definitely preparing for World War III.

Nicole: You think so?

John: It definitely. They're like the... But are they our drone or someone else's drones?

Nicole: They're not someone else's. They're ours. They would be shot down unless they came from the ocean.

John: So, right. I'm like, are they aliens?

Nicole: Yeah, but like, aliens aren't going to have drones that just look like drones, you know?

John: Maybe that's part of their reverse psychology. They're like, they know we're in the ocean now, so send the drones.

Nicole: The drones might be protecting us from something.

John: Well, that's what I was thinking when you were talking about it. I'm like, what if they're creating this force field thing around... I don't think that's the case, but...

Nicole: I don't know. The weird thing is, I feel like, how has the information not leaked? Like, someone would say something, right?

John: Donald Trump interview where he was like, yeah, they know. The government knows about them. I'm not going to New Jersey this weekend. Cancel my plans. And then they were like, have you been briefed on this? And he was like, no comment. So, it's like, like what? Like, you're like, it's the government, and then you also know something that you're not saying, but maybe he can't say yet, you know?

Nicole: No, that's what everybody was saying, but still, it was just funny because he's like, the government knows. I'm not going near the drones. And then they were like, do you know what's going on? Did they debrief you? And he was like, no comment. And then the clip ended, of course, for dramatic effect, but...

John: Yeah, I just feel like I can't stress about them since I don't know what they are.

Nicole: I don't know. Yeah, and like, all the videos I've seen, it's really hard to see what they actually look like. Like, are they larger drones than normal drones, or are they normal drones? I saw one that the drone was like shooting laser beams, so that's why I'm like, I just came up with a theory, and I think it's correct.

John: So, they were saying that on a list, if you say this, I think maybe, but well, no, they were saying that the drones were causing electric interference, right? That they might be equipped with EMPs, right? Which is like a, uh, basically would disrupt all electronic communication and whatnot.

Nicole: So, I wonder if the drones are like a defense system against nuclear missiles.

John: Oh, because if you detonate an EMP discharge, I think it would disable a nuclear bomb, right? Because a nuclear bomb, when it goes, it doesn't just hit a target and blows up, right? It's like you drop the bomb, but then it doesn't blow up. It requires a detonation, right? So, there's like an electronic, you know, computer on board that is saying, okay, release this uranium or whatever, you know, to start the chemical reaction, the atomic reaction.

Nicole: So, you're saying it would like neutralize it as it came down so that it couldn't work.

John: Yeah. John N, the science, because it's like New Jersey, right? It's like New York area. Saw they were in Tula over Tula.

Nicole: Yeah, but maybe the different sites that potentially... I don't know. I haven't seen any. I go outside, let to out, and I'm like, I looked around for some drones. What's going on here? But I don't know. I mean, as long as they're good drones, either that or like, or it's just like Amazon delivery service. They're like, Christmas, yeah, it's Santa. Santa is testing. He's like, I can't do this with the reindeer every year. We're going to just have to get 2024 gift delivery. We'll just zap them there.

John: So, yeah. So, yeah. I mean, who knows? 'Cause like, what are they waiting for? Maybe they're waiting for what you said. I don't know. It's weird that supposedly nobody knows, but they do know.

Nicole: Yeah, and or like, is this also supposed to distract us? Are they just up there to distract us? Like, I don't know anymore. Like, they tell us about aliens in the ocean and then nothing more about that, and then now the drones. And I feel like it's going to be like nothing.

John: Like, yeah. I'm at this point, I'm just living life because there's too many things going on to like freak out about at this point. So, yeah. I don't know. So, just live your life and listen to our podcast.

Nicole: So, today, beyond, we discover through our flaws, we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find no way. Speaking of, life is short. Just live your life.

John: Yeah, the topic is how to break up with someone. Obviously, we will not be doing this. I mean, you did break up with me at one point, but, you know, we will not be doing this. But, you know, maybe some people would like to know the best way to do this.

Nicole: Yes, a lot of people just kind of ghost each other, or they do it in the wrong way, or who knows, they do it, but then they change their mind.

John: Yeah, so, yeah. I figured let's do how to break up with somebody.

Nicole: Okay, that sounds good. We shall. So, I mean, obviously, I think we should start by saying that you should try to make the relationship work, right?

John: Yeah, obviously, for however long of time that you think is best. I think in our episode we did quite a while back, you said 3 months of like focusing on the other person and focusing on yourself, you know, to be the best boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever, and then make your decision.

Nicole: And that's, you should give it some time. Like, I feel like a lot of times, especially as a woman, our emotions are very at the forefront of our lives.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole: So, we can act a little irrational when we get upset and be like, I don't want to do this anymore, whatever. And men can too, you know, men are emotional too. But definitely taking the time and not jumping to conclusions, not, you know, breaking up even after you've had a huge fight, like unless that is like the end of the three months and it's ending in a huge...

John: Fight and you're just like okay this is the very end but yeah if you're in like big fight or an argument or something like that don't make the rash decision of breaking up then and there. Take some time and then, like we were talking about, you know, maybe shift your focus if you haven't already to trying to fix the relationship, trying to be a better version of yourself, and focusing on the needs of your partner and then see how things go.

Nicole: I think it depends on how long you've been together. So early on, you should break up quickly, soon, right?

John: Well, I'm talking, I guess more like if, uh, boyfriend-girlfriend specifically because maybe after we get through that part we'll go to like marriage because that's even, that's like, well yeah, divorce. I'm saying the longer that you've been together, the more you should try to make it work. But the shorter you've been together, the less you should try. So it's like even if you haven't even got to the boyfriend and girlfriend situation, I think you should still reflect on it. I don't think it should be so quick to be like no unless you're like three dates in then yeah, be like look we're not compatible, breaking up. You're like okay and like hold on, uh, we're not even, you don't have to say I'm breaking up with you, we're breaking up if you're not official. But you can break up with them by being like hey, it appears that we're not on the same page with things that I look for in a long-term partner, so in that case, I'm out. I don't have any experience with skiing so I'm out, right, exactly. I can't eat it so I'm out. He's being Mark from Shark Tank. We watch a lot of Shark Tank. But no, like that's not breaking up but I guess it technically is. But if you're not official, you shouldn't be like we're breaking up, you should just be like hey, it's, I don't think we're compatible. Like if you want to stop seeing someone, you should also tell them though, that. So it is kind of like, like don't be a chicken. I'm just saying, you don't have to say I'm breaking up with you if you're not even dating. Like you can, even if you're dating, you can say I'm breaking up with you in a ton of other words than having to say I'm breaking up with you. But obviously, if you're in a committed relationship, you should say those words so that they know it's final.

John: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole: Yeah, but there's a nice way to do it, like I just said, which is telling them, not like shitting on them. You should never shit on anybody, right? Even if you're pissed at them and you want to break up, you should never shit on them. That's just going to make you feel worse. Like I know in the end, that's also why you need to stew on it for a little bit because if you don't and you're pissed off and you're in that really heightened energy, you're going to probably say things that are hurtful. And it's because you're hurt, which makes it less likely that you're going to stay broken up if you do that.

John: Actually, you think so?

Nicole: Yeah, because now you're adding more emotional energy into it and now you might feel bad about what you said or did and then it might be like oh maybe I should be with them because I hurt them and now I feel bad.

John: Yeah, that's true.

Nicole: Exactly. So, yes, I think rule number one in how to break up with somebody is be kind about it.

John: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole: Yeah, or you know, not hurt intentionally hurt the other person with your words or yelling at them or whatever because that is, I would say, a very good foundation to have because if you don't do that then you might go back because now you're in this loop of like well I hurt their feelings and now I feel bad, maybe I made a mistake. It can make you spiral, right? And or be like well I'm just as bad as them now because I made a mistake. So like should we be together, maybe he's not as bad, maybe this isn't like what I thought it was because now you did something bad, quote. So it just, it makes it more confusing for everybody if it's emotionally charged like that. Like if you do it in that moment, that's why even if it's your last argument and you decide okay this is the end or whatever, right, give it at least another like till you wake up the next day, right, and then do it because you'll be way more levelheaded.

John: Yeah, exactly. And I mean when I had dated somebody in the past, uh, I went on a trip with them and on the trip, I wanted to break up with them but I was like that would cause so much chaos. I'm like I can deal with the rest of the trip. I can be cordial, you know, it'll be, and then when we get back, then I'll have a conversation with them. And that's what I did and it was calm and it was cool and collected and again, he probably felt a little blindsided by it but I was respectful about it.

Nicole: Yeah, and so you know, I'm not just out here saying these things. Like I have done them before. It is a better way to handle it because then it can just be like if I had done it then and had like said it in the moment, there would have been all this chaos, right? Like who knows what would have happened. And I was also on a trip so I'm like, like I don't want to ruin that person's trip. I don't want to ruin my trip. We can be cordial and then I can do what I need to do when we get back.

John: Well, and it's good to just make the logical decision about it and also to realize the finality of it, right? Because it's not a manipulation tactic, right? It's not I'm breaking up with you so you do what I want, right? And it should be thought out to okay, this is it. And once you've made the decision and you're sure of that decision, then really you shouldn't even talk about it.

Nicole: Yeah, you should just fire them and that's it.

John: Right, it's just like firing someone. When I fire someone, I don't go into the details of why I'm firing them or if they're just not a good fit or if it's not their fault, it's my fault, or anything. I just say you're fired. It's just yeah, I don't need your services anymore, thank you, it's been good work. Don't say those exact words but we get the gist of what you're saying. But the point is not to get because if you get into it then you are going to get sucked into it.

Nicole: Yeah, and they could try to like disprove the things that you're saying or argue and turn into a whole another thing. If you've already made up your mind, it doesn't matter. There's no point having a discussion.

John: The discussion before you've made up your mind. So if you're thinking about breaking up with someone, don't break up with them and then have the discussion. Have the discussion, see how the discussion goes, and then.

John: Break up with them if that was the discussion you needed to, right? Don't do it in the way most people do it, the opposite way. They say, "I'm breaking up with you," then they have a big discussion about it, and then they don't know where they stand anymore. So, if you're absolutely 100% sure, you don't need to discuss it with them. There's no point. People like, "Oh, I want resolution," or what is it, "closure." Yeah, you don't need closure. It doesn't help anyone to get closure. No one's ever like, "Oh, okay, now it makes sense to me." No, you just need to just say, "Okay, this is what it is. I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. That's it. Wish you the best." And don't give an explanation for it. I know it sounds really weird to say no explanation for it, but the explanation is never going to help.

Nicole: Well, like I said in the beginning, this should be after you've really tried to work on the relationship. So, by that point, there really should be no explanation, right? Because if you're back in the same cycle, the other person should know that it's you guys falling into the same old patterns that you were before, that you were trying to work on. Right? Or like, things aren't changing, and you're not aligned, and you don't want to continue. So, like what you said is true. You shouldn't have to explain by that point. The reason that people explain is because they do it so impulsively. Like, they get pissed, and they're like, "I'm breaking up with you," or whatever. Right? And then they don't even really know if that's what they want. Right? And so then they have this whole conversation, and a lot of people too will say it in the moment to manipulate somebody.

John: Exactly, right. Like, especially, I feel like a lot of women do that. They'll be like, "I'm breaking up with you," and they want the man to chase after her. It's almost like, you know, this cry for "chase after me," right? Because the man probably hasn't been, you know, making her feel important in his life. So, their last stitch effort is to be like, "Well, I'm leaving," or whatever. And then, like, then the guy might be like, "No." But then she just manipulated you. So, it's never use it as a manipulation tactic. It should be a well-thought-out thing because otherwise, you're just playing with someone else's emotions. And even if you're upset, there's no excuse to do that. Right? And you're not going to be taken seriously. It's funny because remember that viral video I did about when a girl breaks up with you, say, "Okay, cool." Right? And so many women were pissed off about that because they wanted to manipulate because they're like, "If he's just going to say okay cool, then that's just a jerk or whatever." And it's like, didn't he didn't really ever care. Like, you broke up with him. You chose to break up with him. So, if you choose to break up with him and he says, "Okay, cool," that's him handling it well. It's not like, what do you want? You want him to beg and say, "No, no, don't break up with me," or "Why are you breaking up with me?" No, if you really want to break up with someone, you don't want them in your life anymore. Right? You don't want to hear them beg you or give an explanation or ask you why. Right? You just want to be done. So, if you don't have that in your mind that you just want to be done and you're breaking up with someone, you're doing it for the wrong reason. You're doing it because you're still trying to get some kind of outcome. Right? Now, you're still waiting for them to change or do something differently.

Nicole: No, you're 100% right. Because I think even women should be like, "Okay, I understand." I'm not saying they have to say, "Okay, cool," but women should do the same. They should accept it. Like, anybody who is being broken up with should accept it. Don't fight it. Yeah, because the thing is, the only way to actually get change and potentially be with that person in the future is if you accept it. It's not if you beg, it's not if you plead, it's not if you grovel. It's if you accept it. Right? Yeah. And if you accept it and you didn't, that wasn't what you wanted, and it was something that you had done that now you want to correct, go and live your life the best you can and correct those things and let them see by example, if they do see, you know. And that's it. And that's how, rather than you trying to beg and plead and bargain. Right? Because at that point, it's too late.

John: That's true. Well, and that's why too, you need to think about it. And even if you think about it, like I said, you can still end up in the cycle of getting back together with somebody or trying to be with the person that you broke up with. Right?

Nicole: Yeah.

John: And that usually never works because nothing ever really changes.

Nicole: Yeah. And you can tell if it really changes, but most of the time it doesn't because most of the time, the reason that you broke up with somebody is because you keep entering these cycles.

John: Yeah.

Nicole: Yeah. And if you've done everything that you can do and you know that before you break up with somebody, the only way it'll be different is if they came to realize it. Right?

John: Right.

Nicole: And I'm not saying that can never happen, but it's out of your control. And so, you can't count on that happening. So, when I'm telling you that you know you have to accept it when someone breaks up with you, you do genuinely have to accept it, not just to be like, "Okay, well, if I accept it, then maybe he'll want to get back together with me." You cannot have that expectation. You have to accept it because you tried everything that you could do, right, to make that relationship work before you got to this point. And you could not, on your own. So, many of the relationship things that I've been seeing is about two people having to do the work.

John: Yeah.

Nicole: And I believe that. And I know we've talked about this on the podcast. And I do think that like one person starting it can inspire the other person to, yeah, but I think if it's only one person, it can never work. And so, that is why when you get to that point and you have to break up with somebody and you feel like you've tried all you can, but nothing is changing, you have to accept that you've done all you can do. Yeah. You've done absolutely everything. And even if you don't want to have to break up with somebody, you have to accept that you have to meet the person where they're at. It's like the final boundary.

John: Right. That's the thing, is that, and then you got to hold that boundary and then you got to not communicate with that person after that happen. That's the thing, is like, you don't need to. I think a lot of people are collecting, they're like, "Let me just collect some more baggage." This ex, I don't think they're intentionally collecting. They're collecting this baggage so they be like, "Oh yeah, no, we're still friends," and they are talking to this ex and that ex, and it's just, you're making a train wreck for someone else that comes into.

John: Your life, when they're like, "Oh, you still talk to your exes? You hang out with them? They're like family, right?" It's like, don't do it. If you're breaking up with someone, it means they're exiting your life, right? They're your EX for exit, exactly.

Nicole: Yeah, but no, you're right. You don't have to be mean, and you shouldn't be mean. Like I said, that is like the ground rule. But it makes zero sense to have an ex in your life because you had a romantic relationship with that person. And you figured out you don't want to ever have a romantic relationship with them ever again. That's how most exes are. And then now you're going to go try to find a new romantic partner while you're also talking to your old one. And I think a lot of women do this because I know that you're talking from the experience of men that you've talked to where the women still talk to their exes. And I think because in their head, yeah, women can friendzone a man, but it still makes no sense. You don't need to add another friend. You don't need to be friends with your ex. If you're holding out hope to be with your ex again, then you shouldn't even be dating.

John: Right, exactly. Yeah. And you really shouldn't even be holding out hope because they've already showed you their cards. They need to come to you if they're going to change. So, you should let them go. Like you said, you know, let them free. Don't like, delete the number, whatever you need to do. And then move on with your life because you can't have other romantic relationships, even though they expired, hanging around. Because also, it's easier for you, especially if it didn't work out because that person's not doing what you want them to do in a relationship. You're still holding out hope that they're going to change, and that you can just go back to them.

Nicole: Right, exactly. So why? Like, you're holding yourself back if you're living in that space. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. But you know, people are not going to listen to that advice, but that's fine. Just, I mean, they got to learn it the hard way.

John: Exactly. And like we've learned things the hard way, so we get it. But you know, it's better to think about it, really think about it. And obviously, first, really try. Try your best to make it work. I don't care if you're dating for a year or whatever. Like, really try if you feel like this is the person you could see yourself with long term. Really try. And then when you get to a point where you're like, okay, this isn't really working out, give yourself enough time where you're in a calm mindset. And then have a conversation with that person. And now, obviously, face to face is better. But how do you feel about breaking up over a phone call or text?

Nicole: I mean, you did break up with me over a call, but that's because you weren't in person.

John: I was, yeah. But that was a weird situation because I was like already broken up, broke up, or I don't know what it was. Just...

Nicole: Oh, that's true. You did come in person that time.

John: Yeah, but and I did the wrong thing. So it's like, you know, yeah. But it was very weird circumstances that like, I didn't really want to break up with you, you know? It was complicated because of the divorce and all of the stuff that...

Nicole: Yeah, it was weirder because we weren't having problems in our relationship. Like it wasn't between you and I. It was these external things, which you've also said before are typically the things that cause people to break up with each other. It's the external things. I mean, internal too, but you know, sometimes it's people talking about things or whatnot.

John: But yeah, you're right. It wasn't like us, like that was the problem. Exactly. Like we couldn't communicate, or we were fighting all the time or things like that.

Nicole: Right. But also, I accepted it when you did it. Like not the first time. I did do the wrong thing the first time, and then like, can't we figure it out because it was, we had a good relationship. And that's why I was like, what? I've only broken up with people or been broken up with when the relationship was horrible. So I was like...

John: That's why you can't be faulted for that.

Nicole: No, it makes sense that, I mean, what you did make sense, right? Because of those circumstances. But after when you called me, I was like, I just got to accept it, or you know, like...

John: Yeah, you know, I only had the one long talk trying to convince you otherwise left in me, and then I had to take my own advice and be like, no, you know, if this is meant to be, then it'll be. But you need to just accept it. And then you called me back immediately after that. So again, you need to just accept it. That's the best way to handle it because either the person's going to figure out, maybe it's like us, and it's not really you're breaking up because you guys aren't meant to be together. It could be because of these other things. But if you accept it, that might help the person realize that, you know, they made a mistake. But you can't count on that.

Nicole: Yeah, and you need to accept it if it's time to go and find a better partner for you.

John: Yeah, yeah. And most of the time, when people break up, that's what is going to be needed. You know, letting your ex go, accepting that you've done all you can do in regards to the relationship and trying to make it work. And then, you know, when you go out and you date again, reflect on your relationship, reflect on the things that didn't work, and you know, have standards for those things moving forward. Like, everything teaches us things. So many people are like, "Oh, I'll stay with people because they don't want to go and go on a first date with people and be like, 'I don't want to go and talk about my life and like start over with a new person.'" And I get that, but also at the same time, like, I don't get it, I guess, because it's like, you want to stay here, and you know it's not good. And the only thing that's really keeping you here is the comfort and the fact that you don't have to go and tell somebody your favorite color or your favorite type of food. The pain isn't great enough. There's that whole thing where, you know, this guy comes over to this other dude's house, and his dog is lying on the floor in the kitchen, and he's like, "What? Every once in a while, your dog just makes a noise, like a whimper noise. What's going on?" It says, "Oh, he's lying on a nail." And he was like, "Why doesn't he get up and move if he's lying on a nail?" It's like, "Ah, the pain's not good, not enough yet. When it is, he'll move." And so, it's like, that's what happens with people. The pain's not enough, right? So, but it's enough for them to complain about it, yeah, every once in a while, but not enough to actually take action, right? Because and that.

John: The thing is, a lot of people are afraid to break up. We talked about that, but that's why the whole thing has to be in person, and you have to do it. There's no explanation or excuses, right? It's just, but that's why, in order to get to that state, that's why I'm saying that I think the best protocol for breaking up is to have a conversation first. Then you can address the things, and you can say, "Here are the things that are not working for me in this relationship right now." And then you can see how they handle that. You're also not giving them a pre-warning, but if you have that conversation after you break up with someone, then they're like, "Oh, I'll fix those things. I'll fix those things," right? Because now they'll just say whatever to get you back.

Nicole: Right, but yeah, you should be having those sorts of conversations before the breakup talk. But if you have it in your head, if you've said, "Okay, I'm going to break up with this person," then the best sequence of events would be to say, "Alright, do I want to have a conversation? If so, then let me have the conversation now, before, while I have it in my head I'm going to break up." And then you address the issues. If there are issues that could be resolved and see at that point, they're going to resolve, then maybe you change your mind and say, "Okay, I'm going to give another chance here." But if not, then they've already got their closure and their explanation too because you've said what you don't like, what needs to change, what you're struggling with. They've had a chance to talk about it. So then maybe you wait a day later and then you say, in person, right, not like a coward, "In person, I'm breaking up with you. I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. Have a nice life," whatever it is, period. That's it, done.

John: No, I agree. And I feel like maybe I didn't explain it as well as you just did, but my definition of everything I've been saying involves having those conversations. 'Cause I think you should have those conversations, like when you're first at that three-month or whatever mark, and you're like, "Okay, these things need to change," or like, "This is what I want out of a partner." And then go from there, you know, focus on, and then also ask them what they're expecting, and then you can focus on their needs for the three months or however long. And then by then, and even I wouldn't even have another conversation like that, maybe if I was trying to be nice, I would have it the day before I broke up again, just to kind of reiterate, like you said, like give them another explanation. But also, in my mind, I'd be like, "I told you three months ago, exactly." So you can't tell me you didn't know.

Nicole: Well, it's just like, yeah, like firing, you know? When I fire people, it is very similar. I don't, I'm never, I never fire someone and tell them why so they can argue about it and tell me how they're going to fix things. And I don't give them a warning they're going to be fired if they don't fix these things. I just simply point out things that are going wrong, like, "Oh, did you know this doesn't look like this happened, or doesn't look like you're communicating?" I'll just point out, be like, "Oh, you know, when you didn't show up for work, you didn't send me an email or let me know," right? And that's all I'm saying. And then if they're saying, "Oh, I'm so sorry, that will never happen again," right? Then maybe they don't. But if I say, "Hey, when you didn't show up for work, you didn't send me an email. If you keep doing this, you're going to get fired," then they're going to correct their behavior temporarily, right? Whatever it is, and they're going to trick you. And then as soon as you let your guard down again, and you think that everything's cool, they're going to go back to their behavior. And it's the same thing in a relationship. So, break up, you just point the things out, like, "This is what I like, this is what I don't like, this is what I want, this is what I need." You don't threaten you're going to break up if this doesn't happen, right? Because you're not going to get a true response. Because then they're going to do the thing in order for you to not, you know what I'm saying? So that's why, right? You're just saying those things, you're observing, seeing how they're responding, and then that's giving you the information you need. And once you've made the decision, like I said, when I fire someone, I just tell them, "I've already made my mind up 100,000%. There's no talking me out of firing you when I'm going to fire you because I've already pointed out the things. I already have said the things. I'm not going to threaten, not going to do warnings. I'm just, I don't need you anymore. You're done." That's it.

John: So true. That's how you got to think about this; otherwise, you get sucked back in.

Nicole: Well, what would you say to the men who have a hard time doing this? Like, I mean, we've given a lot of good advice for how to do it the right way, right? But what I'm just thinking about the men who are hesitant to do it at all. Like, they might even hear everything we're saying and be like, "Oh, I don't want to do that," you know? Like, besides saying, "Man up and do it," you know? I feel like I'm not saying women can't ghost men, but I feel like men typically ghost women, or, you know, or they stay in the relationship when they're not happy, and they're not communicating their needs or things like that.

John: So yeah, that's why I'm saying, like, I'm making it easier for you as a man if you have the conversation first and then break up, not break up and then. Because the reason why most men don't want to break up with a woman is because she's going to cry, and they don't want to hurt her, and they don't want to deal with all of the stuff, and maybe she's going to slash her tires or whatever is going to happen after they break up with her, right? They don't want to deal with that, right? And so what do they do? They put it off, or they try to get her to break up with them, right? That is a real thing. Good thing you brought that up. Or they do break up, but then they soft break up, and they get talked out of it because they're like, "It's not you, it's me," you know, trying to don't sugarcoat it. Just, but don't, but also, right? You just say like, "I don't want to be in this relationship anymore." That's enough. If they ask you why, say, "I have my reasons," or "We've talked about them before," whatever. For them, I mean.

John: Unless you got some stupid reason for breaking up, like you don't ski or whatever it is, you should have talked about that because even if you're like, "Okay, well, she gained weight. I want to break up with her because I'm not as attracted to her anymore," then you should have still had that conversation, right? You should have just had the conversation because if you're going to break up with them anyway, you might as well have had the conversation.

Nicole: Right, but don't do it after breaking up with someone. Now you're really getting your tire slashed. But well, especially something with like weight or something because someone can fix that.

John: Yeah, and exactly. No one wants you to help fix that if you do it in the right way. But I'm saying, it really shouldn't be that big of a deal to you. But if it is, because I know there's a lot of guys I've coached that it is a big deal to them, so okay, if it's a big deal to you, it's probably not your soulmate anyway. But let's just say that it's a big deal to you, then just address it, just talk about it. And then if it goes really bad when you address it, but it is important to you, then hey, then you gave it a chance and now you can break up and just say, "Okay, I'm breaking up, that's it." So, my mind is going to a side note thing. We watched this video where this guy said that women have lists but men don't, but gaining weight would be on the list, I mean, for some men.

Nicole: I guess it's yeah. That was just a little side note. He said women have lists and men don't, but I think the lists are just different. But everybody has a list. But without going into all that, yeah, let's talk about the real thing I want to talk about. I'm so glad you brought this up because this bothers me so much. Men who want to break up with a woman but don't have the courage to do it, so they try to get the woman to break up with them, which is a lot of times the cheating guys and things like that. Like they'll blatantly do things that anybody would break up with them over just to get her to be the one to do it.

John: Yeah, why it's easier, just you know. But like, you cannot call yourself a man if you do this. I mean, it's like I said, it's not, it's kind of the coward's way out.

Nicole: Right, no, it is for sure because it's like you're going to instead manipulate somebody into breaking up with you instead of you just doing it. It's kind of like, here, maybe give you a little different perspective on it. Right, at least we're probably a lot of guys are thinking about this, which is not necessarily from the courageous frame, but more like imagine you had this job that you didn't like, right? And you're like, "I'm just done with this job. I don't want this job anymore." But you're like, "I mean, should I really quit the job? I mean, they're paying me." I'll tell you what, here's what I'll do. I'm just going to like sit at my desk and not do anything, and then I'll collect the paycheck until they fire me. And if they don't fire me, I'll just keep on collecting the paycheck.

Nicole: Right, that sounds ridiculous, I know, but that's because if you get fired, that looks way worse than you quitting a job. When they call your employer and the employer says, "No, I fired him because he just sat there and didn't do anything," you think you're going to get another job very well? Same with women. They talk, like, yeah, they move to another state, but you know, your butt is going to end up on one of those girl group chats, and they're going to be like, "Can you believe that this man did this to me?"

John: Yeah, that's true. So, but your next job interview is going to be rough. And then also, if you tell, if you have to tell somebody, "Yeah, I cheated on my last girlfriend because I wanted her to break up with me," you're not going to say the last part, but if you're honest with her, which you probably, it actually probably is better to say it that way, actually. You know, that's not going to go over well. You versus a guy who's maybe equally as great as you in other ways but didn't cheat on his girlfriend just to get out of the relationship is going to get picked. But which is better though? Which is better if a guy is like, "I cheated on my ex-girlfriend because there was a hotter woman that I liked, and I was tempted," or "I cheated on my ex-girlfriend because I wanted her to break up with me"? I mean, you got to pick between one of those two. Neither, I know, but pick one, just.

Nicole: Pick like between those two, which is the lesser of evil? Which one? Honestly, I'm not choosing either. You know that. That the second one would actually be better. I mean, they're neither should cheat at all. So like, you telling me to pick between cheaters, it's like no, like just no, none of it's good. Like it's equally bad.

John: Okay, but you don't have to pick for yourself. You just have to rate, you know, from they're both zero. I'm just saying it's a better reason. Look, the thing is, you need to tell the woman that you cheated because you need to be honest. However, if you had broken up before, yeah, yeah, and you'd been the one that had broken up with her, yeah, then you wouldn't even have to tell the next girl that you cheated, yeah, because you didn't want to get out of the relationship, yeah. Because also, that just makes people be like, "Okay, well, is he going to stay, but he's going to want me to break up with him, so he's just."

Nicole: Going to start doing things to make me break up with him. Yeah, I mean, I can, I just, it just made me think of like, I mean, I'm definitely staying with you forever, no matter what. But also, can you imagine if I had to explain my situation to someone else? That'd be like, "So hold on, let's go back to your first marriage, and then what did you do? Oh, okay. And then you had a podcast, though, right? Oh yeah, you would, would be." And then they'd be like, "You would have to go live in the woods somewhere by or some place where they never had the internet, you know? Internet, you're the most amazing man, but you would quickly turn into the most evilest villain in the entire world."

John: Definitely, yeah. It would be, I, it would defy explanation. I would not be able to explain my way out of it at all, you know? I'd get you scanned for a brain tumor, but then if you didn't have one, I'd kick you, go, go in the woods. Yeah, just think about how, uh.

Nicole: Not to sidetrack too much, but can you imagine, like, I mean, no, I don't want to imagine, like we're, like we're both locked in because can you imagine having footage of your ex in a podcast called "Better Than Perfect," you know, relation where they talk about how good their relationship is every single week? No, and then that, like, just live forever. Like every time I, you're both of.

Nicole: Us are marked, right? That's what maybe like we're together because we're undatable. Every time I have an intrusive thought that's like, "What if John betrays me?" I'm like, "I'm not dealing with men anymore. If it's not you, I'm going to go live in the woods by myself in a nice little cottage, though, with like puppies everywhere. Like, I'll be fine." But you know, in that world, I think about it all the time. I'm like, "If it's not you, then it's nobody at this point. I ain't giving any man any other chances. It's absolutely not. Like, if you go to this extent and you still mess up...

Then I might become like the woman spokesperson of like, "Men are ruined forever." Like, you know, it wouldn't make sense to me. But yeah, there's not all men are like that. Yeah, but you also need to break up with women instead of manipulating them to break up with you. Yeah, that's manipulation. Manipulation is wrong.

John: I agree. I agree. I don't care what the excuse is. I don't care if you're like super not into her anymore. Break up with her. Yeah, and we've given plenty of ways to do that in a nice way. The thing is, I don't understand why men are so afraid of women's emotions. Like, you'd rather you're more upset to see her cry, but you're going to cheat on her and piss her off? Or she would chop your off instead. Yeah, I don't know, makes zero sense.

Nicole: Zero sense. You don't want to see her cry and be upset and heartbroken, but you want to see her angry where she'll slash her tires or whatever else. I guess it's logical. It's well, you know, if she's angry at you, you can be like, "Such a [__]." Right? But she's crying, they make her but still, like, she's still probably going to act like a [__] when she's angry, so you can kind of, you know, be like, "Alright, yeah, see, she's a [__]. That's why we broke up with her. That's why we cheat on. That's why we did it." No, you're manipulating the situation so that you feel better about your shitty decision.

John: Look, I'm just going through the...

Nicole: No, I appreciate you doing that, but I'm just like, I'm trying to debunk all these things for the men out there whose brain works just like yours is working right now. You're saying all the right things 'cause this is what they're thinking, right? But they shouldn't be. Right. It's way easier for everybody, including you, if she cries some tears when you guys break up versus the opposite. Yeah, because you also won't feel good about yourself cheating. Like, even if you temporarily do, yeah, you're not going to. Yeah, it's going to, and then you have to piss her off, right? Or upset her to make yourself feel justified, but you never really will. Yeah, and then you always have to live with making a shitty decision just 'cause you didn't want to make the [__] of just breaking up with her.

John: Right. Exactly. Yeah, you're right.

Nicole: So, that leads me to my next point. Situationships. Oh, never. So, it's harder to break up with somebody you're not official with, right? But yeah, yeah, you still owe them, yeah, the communication of, "Hey, we're not going to do this anymore." You know, that's true. Yeah. So, like, especially if you're in a situationship, well, maybe you're in a situationship where the person doesn't know anything about what's going on. But I feel like sometimes situationships, like, each other knows each other's dating other people. So, if you're in that situation, you can be like, "You know, I found somebody that I want to be with," or whatever. But if you're not, and nobody talks about anything, then you still need to say like, "Hey, you know, this isn't... I can't continue doing. I'm sorry if your feelings got involved, but, you know, I think it's best to end this so that it doesn't get more tangled up in the situationship that we're in." Yeah, nice. You know what I mean? Like, you can say it in a nice way, but you do owe them.

John: Yeah, I agree. An explanation. I agree. It's true. Yeah, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't again have to be super long. You don't have to explain yourself. You could just be like, "This isn't working out, but I wish you the best." You know, just add, "Wish you the best." Like, you should wish them the best. Yeah, you're going off to do something better and be with somebody that's more fit for you, and they'll get to find that person for themselves too. Yeah, so it's a good thing. Breaking up is a good thing. It doesn't feel like a good thing, but it is a good thing because you're ending something that isn't working out. Yeah, so that you now have the capacity in a way that won't bring you any shame or guilt. Right. Exactly. To move on and find somebody that aligns more with you and that you want to spend the rest of your life with, if that's what you want to do. Yeah, which is what I feel like everybody deep down, regardless of what they say, is working for. They want one person that loves them for who they are, that they're compatible with in multiple ways, that allows them to have a harmonious relationship.

John: Yeah, I agree with that. So instead of looking at it as a bad thing, look at it as beneficial to both you guys. Yeah, there's going to be some pain in the beginning. Like, someone's going to be upset. Both people could be upset, even if you're the one breaking up with somebody. You can be upset that you're hurting somebody's feelings. Like, right. That's okay. But you have to look at the bigger picture of like, "Okay, well, you know, this sucks, but we will both get over it, and we will both go on to find better things for ourselves."

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. Got to do it the right way. Not...

John: Right. Exactly. Do it the right way. It'll also bring you peace. Men say they want peace, but they create so much chaos in their life by instead manipulating things. They create so much chaos. But if you do it the way that we've talked about doing it, that's the peace. Yeah, yeah. It's the peace of knowing you did the right thing. Right. Yeah. And that you treated somebody well. That is peace. Maybe men don't know what peace is. They think it's just sweeping it under the rug, and so they can't see it. So peace. But it's not. It's just being the best version of yourself and doing right by people, even if you have to do hard things. That is peace. But you know that.

Nicole: But you know, I do have to say on the other side, though, that women do also do a similar type of thing. Oh, women manipulate. So, it's like because definitely, I was just dealing with a coaching client of mine, and he was dating this girl for like, I don't know, like 10 weeks or something like that, but they're not official. MH. But he, he against my advice, asked where they stood.

John: And what did she say?

Nicole: She avoided the question basically because he was like, "Yeah, do you... I'm getting mixed signals from you." And he was like, "Do you like me?"

John: 10 weeks, like, so true. So she was like, "I think she told him, 'Yeah, no, I want to go on more dates with you.'" That was her answer, right? And then, yeah, and then she didn't have any more things to say. And so, no, I'm not saying women don't ever do it, yeah. So it's like, you know, and they are more likely to use breaking up to manipulate, I will say.

Nicole: She's just not breaking, not, you know, because there's so many guys that I coach that it's like they're in limbo with this woman. It's like, "Oh, she takes a week to respond to me. Yeah, you're not dating her. She takes a week to respond, like, she's just got you on hold. You're on hold, you're on permanent hold. You're like, 'Hold on, hold.' Right? Like, I'm just going to live my life, and then, oh, unhold for a minute, we're going on a date. Okay, hold." Right? Like, that's what's happening. But it's because the woman doesn't want to just say, "I don't want to see you anymore." So she's just, well, and it is without going too far because we are pretty far in here, some of it, not all of it, and I'm not saying this is the case for that, but some of it is that it's hard, especially if you don't know the man very well. I mean, 10 weeks is a good amount of time, but if you don't know how he's going to respond, men are a little bit more violent, typically, just by nature, so it could be a safety thing. But most of the time, women also like ghost and do things like that. And again, they should be upfront and be like, "I don't think this is working out." And you can, even if you're in that situation, if you really want to tell the truth, you could say, "Hey, you know, I don't really know where this is going. I don't know. I feel I'm interested in seeing you more, but I still haven't made my decision." And a man should hear that and be like, "No, I don't want to be with somebody who's like that." Because a woman should, it should go vice versa, right? Like, if a woman gets a text from a man who's like, "Hey, I enjoy hanging out with you, but like, I don't really know. Let's go on more dates," and it's been 10 weeks, she should, that's a decision. Like you just said, it's like maybe something better will come along. But even if you say that, you are kind of allowing the person to end it or keep going. And at that point, they know what you're doing. Right? Like, they know you're confused, they know, you know, whatever, and they can make a decision. Like, that's still giving somebody a decision.

John: Yeah, because maybe she genuinely doesn't know, or maybe she's seeing some other guy, and he's wishy-washy, but she really likes him, but this guy's a good choice. I'm not saying it's okay to do what she's doing, but that could be why she's keeping him along. But she should at least be upfront and be like, "Well, even her being like, 'I'd go on more dates,' but she should really say like, 'I'm still unsure.'" And then he should be like, "Well, if she's unsure at 10 weeks, then she's not going to be sure. Like, I'm not going to convince her if she hasn't already been convinced in 10 weeks."

Nicole: Yeah, there's also the thing where a lot of times, women will start going out with the girls, you know, and then kind of look for the next guy to jump to before doing the breakup. Yeah, men do the same thing too, but they're not trying to get broken up with. They're just going to set up their option before they make the move.

John: So, yeah, but which is not the right way to break up too, like having the, you know, because it always comes out that you're immediately now with someone else. Then whether you're cheating or not, it looks like you are. So, I mean, it is still cheating because you're emotionally cheating at that point.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. I will say one thing to that, without going too far, is that I think with how dating is today, though, that it's probably not even as intentional as you think it is. I think because you and I have this relationship, like, it's obvious, but I think people have such crappy options with each other that they're like, they are trying to figure out which one is the best option, and maybe they are taking more time to figure that out. But you can still be upfront about that, and people do deserve honesty. So, I'm not saying don't do the things that we've already done, but in like the dating world's defense, it's scary out there these days. But when you know you don't want to be with someone, and you should for sure, and like, I agree with you that I think that she probably doesn't like this guy as much as she thinks, but at all, you know, you should also tell somebody if you don't like them. You're right.

John: Yeah, and women do typically try to manipulate with the breaking up immediately thing, and then they want changed behavior by saying that. So, I'm not trying to sit here and act like women don't do these things. Like, everybody should be doing the things that do. If that's why I tell guys the response is, "Okay, cool." Right? Because if she is trying to manipulate you with it, it doesn't mean that she's necessarily, like, not rehabilitated, whatever. Like, they just, you know, because you know, not everyone has the emotional intelligence that they should have, or they need to learn some things. But saying, "Okay, cool," makes you not able to be manipulated. Because like, "Okay, I want to break up with you." "Okay, cool. That's fine." That's true. And then it's like, "What do you mean, okay cool?" And then you're like, "If you want to break up with me, then that's what we're going to do." Right? And then leave. That's it.

Nicole: Yeah, that's what I would do. And then if she did do that once, she'll never do it again.

John: That's true. Said okay, you just left.

Nicole: Mm. But if you got sucked into it, then she's going to do it again and again and again and again. And every time, 'cause it works.

John: Yep, exactly. So, yeah. All right, what's our thing for the week? I don't think we have anything, do we?

Nicole: We did have the thing that I, what I forget what I said, but I upset you. I don't even remember what.

John: Oh, it was like a parenting thing.

Nicole: Oh, was like with the sleepover thing. That's yeah, yeah.

John: That wasn't a big thing. That's all we got, though.

Nicole: That's all we got, was just a thing about the sleepover. Yeah, I'm trying to even think what. Well, I just like came upstairs and just started talking about my opinion on it, and then.

John: Oh yeah, you felt like, you know, I was being aggressive about it or, how did you feel about it?

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, just a little bit kind of pushing the thing, and I, you know, and then I had said that I didn't want to deprive her of, you know, whatever. But then I think you took that as, as like I said, "I don't want to deprive her," and you took

John: That was me saying that you don't want to deprive her, or that I thought you would be depriving her, but that wasn't what I was... Well, it just seemed like, in my opinion, you were implying that meant I was trying to do that, which wasn't the case. But I took it the wrong way, and so I got defensive. But then I apologized that I hurt your feelings.

Nicole: Yeah, and it wasn't a big deal. It was like a five-minute thing, I think, 10 minutes maybe. So much better than eight hours. Yeah, so yeah, but no, that was good. It was good. But I think that's good too because we're able to resolve things much quicker. Right, so yeah, there we go. And that's really like the only thing. Yeah, so we're on a pretty good roll. Well, we got to figure out what to do for the end segment. You didn't like the random facts, so you need to come up with a new one.

John: Yeah, I don't know. We have to see. I mean, it'd be good if we could read some comments or answer a question or something like that, you know, like a lightning question. Send us some lightning questions to betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com.

Nicole: Yeah, and reviews. Subscribe, like, and subscribe.

John: Yeah, and what else? Share, share the gospel. Yeah, that's it. Just share it, you know. We are... I'm not going to talk too much about it.

Nicole: Oh yeah, but I know you're... Yeah, the thing, the business idea. We got an idea.

John: Yeah, but that's all we're going to say. Yeah, because we can't... And the logo is going to be fire.

Nicole: All right, that's it for this week. We'll see you next week. Bye, through every... We find our way.