John [00:00:00]: The red pill solution to this problem, it's, go your own way, don't ever trust a woman. Don't ever marry a woman.

Nicole [00:00:06]: But what does that even really mean? They're telling you to go your own way and screw women, but that's not what they want deep down, and a lot of them are with women. You're listening to someone tell you to do whatever you want. Don't worry about women because they suck. When they have a woman, they'll say.

John [00:00:24]: I don't hate women. But if you see someone only as having negative attributes and that is what you focus on and that's what you talk about every day, then that is equivalent to hating them, whether you say the words I hate them or not.

Nicole [00:00:38]: Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws, we complete each other.

John [00:00:44]: Better than perfect we stay through every.

Nicole [00:00:50]: Fault, we find our way.

John [00:00:55]: All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:05]: Are you helping each other? I'm like, is he gonna switch it up? Grow. Got that dramatic pause.

John [00:01:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:12]: Well, yeah. What do we wanna talk about that's going on today, or do you wanna just jump right in? I mean, our topic for this episode.

John [00:01:22]: It'S kind of what's going on today. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we might as well just jump into the show we watch on Netflix, Adolescence.

Nicole [00:01:33]: Yes.

John [00:01:33]: Which I was vaguely aware of it, but we saw a video, a Matthew Hussey video who. If you don't know who he is, he's a female dating coach. He teaches females how to date, how to get a man. And he's good. He's got a lot of really good stuff. I seen. I followed him for a long time and he was talking about. Actually, he had a video that caught my eye that was. I forget what it was titled, but it was something about the red pill. And so I was like, oh, this is interesting that he's talking about this. And then he had mentioned the show on Netflix, Adolescence, and I hadn't even heard of it. Yeah, honestly. Yeah. So we see. We watch the show. So, yeah. So this episode is about breaking down that show. And so there's going to be spoilers, obviously. So if you haven't watched it, you can watch it. But. But, yeah, that's. That's basically it. Because it's a very important in the zeitgeist. Zeitgeist. The Zeitgeist. Zeitgeist of society today. It touches on a lot of topics.

Nicole [00:02:46]: So yeah, and we also listened to the Diary of a CEO episode. Well, I listened to the full thing. I don't think you've listened to the full thing. But talking about this topic as well, they kind of like go together in a way. So I'm sure we'll reference that as well too. I don't know the proper title of the episode, but it had a men's coach as a guest and then I.

John [00:03:12]: Can'T remember his name now. A lady from Hinge, Gary something. Gary. I don't know, look it up.

Nicole [00:03:18]: But people are going to be mad. They're going to be like, you didn't do exactly. You didn't come check the show notes.

John [00:03:25]: Go to the website. Check the show notes that we don't have yet, but go to the website.

Nicole [00:03:30]: I'm like, there is no way.

John [00:03:31]: I need to get the website. Need to get show notes and transcript going on. I just realized, you know, I figured that out because I'm putting together a program for software developers called Rockstar Developer University, teaching them either to build a YouTube channel, launch a podcast or create a blog or write a book. And I was like, yeah, one of the things you should do with your podcast is have a website and you should have show notes or a transcript. So yeah, we need to do that. But yeah, so, okay, so synopsis of the show. So what is the show about again? Spoiler alert. But it's not. I mean the show kind of says what it's about at the beginning, so it's not really much of a spoiler. But it's essentially about a 13 year old boy. This is set in north England, north UK and he kills a 13 year old girl. He stabs her multiple times. And it's about what happened. Like it basically just starts with that and it's about him being arrested. That's where it starts. And then what happened, them investigating the school and what's the motive? Why did he do this? Right. And you know, and no surprise, it turns out that it's, it's multiple things but essentially what comes down to a lot of kids on the Internet today at a young age being exposed to quote red pill content or just destructive the manosphere that is mentioned in the show, which is interesting and these ideas that we're going to use all the keywords here that will make this video not. But incel the inceldom. All of these kind of concepts that were in a microcosm. Right. Not too long ago, I mean back in the day, you know, when you first met me. I was one of the only guys talking, like there was a very small group of guys talking about these things, understanding these terms. And now it's blown up to the point where it's a Netflix show that they're talking about it, you know, and so, so essentially that is, it was, is the reason why. And there's also some things having to deal with masculinity and his father and the anger involved in that and the example that he's seen. But the big sort of overarching message of the show is this, like, hey, kids are on the Internet and they are getting exposed to this stuff.

Nicole [00:06:04]: Right. And they're believing it. And you know, they're living from this place of someone on the Internet told them that they're never going to be with a woman, they're never going to have a relationship, they're ugly, they're never going to be a chad. You can never get jacked, you can never make this much money. Women only want 20% of men.

John [00:06:26]: Yeah. The top, the 80% of women want the top 20% of men.

Nicole [00:06:30]: And then 13 year olds are believing that they're just never going to get there.

John [00:06:35]: Right. Right.

Nicole [00:06:36]: And so they don't try.

John [00:06:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:39]: Because they feel like they can't. Because these guys on the Internet told them that.

John [00:06:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:43]: You might as well give up.

John [00:06:44]: You need to be a chad.

Nicole [00:06:45]: So they do give up.

John [00:06:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:46]: Even though they're 13.

John [00:06:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:47]: And they have no idea what their life is going to be like.

John [00:06:50]: Right. They could literally become a chad. They don't even, you know that.

Nicole [00:06:53]: And they're living.

John [00:06:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:55]: So many years in anger.

John [00:06:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:58]: And then they end up becoming violent.

John [00:07:02]: Yeah. Right.

Nicole [00:07:04]: So what's happening?

John [00:07:05]: And it was interesting timing just because one of my nephews actually had just messaged me and was like, oh, I found your YouTube channel. And you know, and I was like, because he's like 10 or 11 years old and it's like, man, there's young boys. I mean, I'm glad now the content that I produce, that it's good, it's good even for a young boy. But even back in the day, the content I produced, some of it was more explicit, so that would be my concern. But it was always positive towards women and with the positive masculinity. So I'm glad, especially now that I can say, okay, if young guys are watching my stuff, that they're gonna get a positive message, not a negative one. But it's just crazy to think that that 10 year old, 11 year olds are. And what I was Telling you about from the show was that our daughter, she is obsessed with K pop and specifically a band, bts. Right. And that she knows all the names of every single person in there, all the videos they've been in, all their albums, all kinds of trivia and information about bts. And she's gotten it all from the Internet because she's obsessed with them watching YouTube videos and all this stuff. And I, and I was like 10, 11, 12, 13 year old boys, they know about the manosphere and the red pill content and all of these talking points to that level. Because when you're that young, you obsess about those things and you, that's what you do, you consume as much content as you possibly can. And so that's scary. It's extremely scary because we have had the run ins with the guys who are older who believe these things. We've debated them, we've been on the Black Pill podcasts and talk to them and I've been involved with the, you know, not to give it clout or anything, but the 21 convention and guys like Anthony Johnson who, you know that, that space of. And we've dealt with those figures and those people even attacking us and.

Nicole [00:09:20]: Yeah. For no reason.

John [00:09:22]: Right. And it's so, it's so. It's such a toxic, extreme mindset that it's scary when you've got 10 year olds, 11 year olds, you know, these young boys that you can't talk any sense into, you know, because they're like, oh no, they have their talking points, they know that they're correct and they understand women and they know exactly how women are and all women are like.

Nicole [00:09:46]: This and even though they've never talked to a woman themselves.

John [00:09:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:49]: And you say it's scary.

John [00:09:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:50]: Imagine how it feels being a woman.

John [00:09:53]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:09:55]: It is terrifying to know that more and more men are becoming more and more angry specifically towards women.

John [00:10:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:03]: And like the show that it's this woman hating hopelessness that is being created by these like content creators that are perpetuating this to everyone, cult leaders we'll.

John [00:10:19]: Call them, because that's what they are, basically.

Nicole [00:10:21]: Yeah. Like, yeah, it is promoting more and more violence, not less. And you know, you and I both know that the Internet is a place where anger and negative emotions really thrive.

John [00:10:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:33]: And that is what people tend to gravitate towards, but it's just creating more and more hostility and not resilience and weakness like these men think they're being strong or and boys.

John [00:10:50]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:51]: Because they're like, I know the truth, like and I can stand in this. And they think that that's strong but really it's weak to believe that you cannot change your life, that women dictate your life.

John [00:11:04]: Right. It's a fixed mindset.

Nicole [00:11:06]: Exactly right. Exactly. And that there's nothing you can do about it except be angry. And I think genuinely the content creators of like red pill content, Blackpool content, whatever, don't even know that they're not teaching men or boys the truth.

John [00:11:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:26]: They're taking away men and boys hope in themselves and in their future and in all the things that they want. And you know, we talked a lot about this TV show while it was going on and normally we don't talk about the topic, you know. Yeah. Before. But it was really hard not to because there's so many different layers including like the parenting part which I'm sure we'll get to in this as well, like, because I do think that's important. And you know the way that a 13 year old boy can feel like his life is over at 13.

John [00:12:03]: Oh yeah.

Nicole [00:12:03]: And that other men are teaching boys this.

John [00:12:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:08]: And they think they're doing the right thing.

John [00:12:11]: They.

Nicole [00:12:11]: But they're not.

John [00:12:12]: Some of them, most of them don't.

Nicole [00:12:13]: It's women's fault and they're blaming women.

John [00:12:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:16]: But those men are taking away those boys hopes. They're not teaching them how to talk to women or how to better themselves or how to work on themselves. They're telling them there's nothing you can do. And they are the ones that are taking away the hope in these boys. It is not women, but these boys are so mad at women and not mad at the men that are making them feel this way. And I again, no one can make you feel that way. But as a 13 year old you are influencing them to a level that they don't even comprehend. They think they're making a decision on their own, but they're not.

John [00:12:54]: Yeah. And we, and we talked about what happens when you take away hope from young men. You get violence every time. Historically this has been the case. We were talking about how with 9, 11, what happened with the terrorist attacks when people become bomber, you know, blow themselves up. What is the mindset? Always it's, it's hopelessness. It cut. They find young men who are in desolate situations where their family is poor, where they have no hope of, of anything, any kind of real future and these, and that's, and that's what inspires the violence. That's when you look at the regions of the world where young men are uprising and violence, where horrible atrocities are being committed against women and against their fellow men. It is in places where there is hopelessness, Right. If we look in the United States, you look at the inner streets of Chicago, hopelessness, that's what you know, it's extreme poverty and hopelessness. That's what breeds that killing. If you look at in Mexico, where there's some of those cities where women are being slaughtered, dumped in ditches, again, it's hopelessness. Colombia, same thing that we see there. It's like in the Middle east where there's a huge amount of violence. Again, you look at Palestine, you look at any of those places and you're gonna find young men who are frustrated, who have no hope for the future. And that's where the violence comes from.

Nicole [00:14:25]: Yeah. And do you know how terrifying as a woman to not know if you're talking to one of those men or not to not know if you're his last attempt at talking to a woman and when you reject him that he's going to be violent towards you or violent.

John [00:14:39]: And yeah, all the mass shootings that have occurred in the US almost every single one of the major ones in recent years has been a incel guy, a self proclaimed incel guy. So this is a serious, serious topic. So I'm glad that it's actually getting the attention. But let me caveat this, let me say that, you know, so I was one of the guys that founded the red pill movement, right? So I want to say this because there's been some things that have been twisted. I've disassociated myself with that in the whole, quote, manosphere, because it's become something that it should have never become, right? So the idea behind red pill, it comes from the Matrix. You take the blue pill, you take the red pill, the blue pill, you go back to your fantasy world, the red pill, you find the truth. So the red pill represents the idea of giving the truth, right? And so I was one of the main guys that was bringing this to awareness because it's important to understand. And what initially it was was teaching men to understand the nature of women and female sexuality. So things like very simple concepts like women don't like nice guys, they prefer the bad boy type of. Right. That's just, you're gonna find that. So when you are like overly nice, giving girls flowers and just like being a pushover guy, right? Then you're, you know, even though women say that's what they want, that's not what they really want. So it's like these kind of simple things that are fundamental truths about reality and you've been lied to. But the whole idea behind this is it's like, I could give you the example of saying, all right, the Navy SEALs, it's really hard to become a Navy SEAL. There's a high selection process most people wash out, right? So if you get the truth to say it's really, really hard, that should inspire you, and you should say, okay, well, I'm going to become one of them. I'm going to prepare myself. It shouldn't make you say, well, screw the Navy seals. I hate the Navy seals. They're horrible. Navy seals are stupid. That's not the idea. And so what's happened is it's become twisted. So even the things like we talked about where it's like 80% of women want the top 20% of men, that's the truth. That's a fundamental truth. But there's two ways to look at that, right? And the one way to look at that is to get angry and say, this is stupid. Like, women are stupid. Women are whatever. They only want to sleep with chads, and they'll just sleep with all these chads. And this is horrible. And women are horrible. The other way to look at it is, oh, okay, now I know. So I need to really work hard and become one of those top 20% of men. Like, it should inspire you. And so, you know, when. When I was first talking about these concepts before, again, it became twisted before the whole Andrew Tate thing happened. My view on it is I want to teach you reality so that you can become better and understand it. But it was never, ever meant to be, at least in. In my mind, ever hatred towards women. It was not. That's because. And the reason why is because it's the antithesis of what I've been teaching guys for a long time, which is it's the victim mindset when you blame someone else, when you take. When you don't take personal accountability and responsibility. Right? And so I want to kind of lay that as a. As a framework, because the. The reason why I want to say that is because I think people look at this whole thing and they throw it all out or they, you know, there's. There's not a lot of empathy for. For these. These guys, because it is a difficult situation to be a man today, especially the way society is, especially not having an identity or a place in society. And so it's just that the message of the truth is a good One, but you've got people, content creators out here today, and guys that are making it all negative. You've got the black pill kind of spin off from that, which is guys that just think only thing that matters is looks, and that's all that matters. And so we're in this really crazy, twisted place where it's become victim mindset, it's become hatred towards women. It's become using these. Some of these things that are true and some of them that aren't even true now that they're espousing in order to show why women are bad, specifically why Western women are bad. Right. We've talked about this so many times on the podcast with the Passport Bros and all of these. These things. But what it does is it creates when you. You know, historically, throughout history, we've used propaganda in order to slaughter people. Right. So if you're going to war, the way that you get a young man to kill another human. Right. Is you have to make them dehuman. You have to dehumanize them. Right. So this happened throughout all of the major wars is that there was propaganda. Right. You know, the, you know, not to. I hate when the Internet goes to Hitler, but one of the things that the Nazi Germany did was they dehumanized Jews. They drew these characters of the big noses and they're just. And they drew them as rats and they just steal money. They don't even have any kind of morals. So they made them subhuman so that people could feel okay killing them. And that happens in every single war. And so the reason why I think this is super, super important is because the danger of the red pill and black pill stuff as it is now is it dehumanizes women to the point where now it feels okay to do violence against them. And that is the danger, especially for a young boy.

Nicole [00:20:41]: Yeah. I mean, after listening to everything you just said. And it's very true. I think that when you talked about the Navy SEAL thing, like, clicked in me that these men and boys, the content creators and the people consuming it live in fear.

John [00:21:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:00]: They're afraid that they will never be with a woman.

John [00:21:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:04]: And what breeds anger? Fear.

John [00:21:08]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:10]: Where there is fear, there's anger.

John [00:21:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:13]: And so they might not realize it, but their anger, they think that they just hate women. And like you said, they are trying to, you know, dehumanize them so that they don't feel the guilt and the shame for what they're doing.

John [00:21:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:27]: And they feel like it's not their fault. But the reality is that it's coming from a place of fear. And those men who are saying, you know, women only want this, have, instead of promoting inspiration or like something that they can grow towards, they're afraid. They're afraid they will never get there. So they are afraid to try. So they never do try. And so they just try to fight the thing that they're afraid of. And they're afraid of women. Not in the sense of like, this woman's going to beat me up.

John [00:22:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:01]: But they're afraid in the sense that they will never find a woman who loves them or wants to be with them or even just be with them for a night. It all stems from fear.

John [00:22:11]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:22:12]: And that is why, like I mentioned earlier, it is a weakness. They think it's a strength. They think all their anger strength. And a lot of people think that anger is strength. Not just men, not just these men that hate women. A lot of women use anger to try to have a pseudo sense of power. But really that also stems from some sort of fear.

John [00:22:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:32]: They felt like weak and that they were hurt in the past and so now they're going to be big and strong and yell at people.

John [00:22:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:40]: So I think if we get to like the root of the things like you talked about and realizing that it's coming from a place of fear and that these men are living in a place of fear whether they know it or not.

John [00:22:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:52]: That maybe we can help them get to a point where they're inspired to better themselves rather than hearing a truth, a hard truth like that.

John [00:23:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:03]: And then being defeated and a lot of it too. Unfortunately, with the generation coming up, they're already afraid of failure. And that's why I think like this show that this 13 year old boy stabbed this girl. It's not that far fetched because this generation coming up cannot deal with failure.

John [00:23:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:23]: They cannot. And so when they already can't deal with failure and then they hear like boys hear that, well, you're gonna fail no matter what you do at 13. They're not even gonna try.

John [00:23:36]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:23:36]: They've already given up at 13 years old because they can't handle the failure. They can't handle even trying and being rejected.

John [00:23:46]: Well, yeah, and they're brainwashed with a fixed mindset. Because the key problem is, and this is, I think this is an important distinction, is that the content creators right now that are creating the quote, red pill and manosphere content, they are not preaching a growth mindset. They are telling you that women want chads and being A chad is a genetic thing.

Nicole [00:24:08]: Right.

John [00:24:08]: That's what they're primarily saying. I know there's variations of it, but their focus. And they're saying that the way that women behave in a way that you don't like is genetic. And that's how it is. That's how. And those things, those are fixed mindset. There are certain truths that are in there. But when you, when you approach it as. There's nothing you can do about it. Like, like, what is, what is the red pill solution to this problem? It's go your own way. It's. It's don't ever trust a woman. Don't ever marry a woman.

Nicole [00:24:46]: But what does that even really mean? Because you should be going your own way when you start listening to the content. Right. So what is going your own way besides just hating women? Like, what. What is the difference? Like, and now they're telling you to go your own way and screw women. Like, in the sense of don't deal with them.

John [00:25:08]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:09]: But that's not what they want deep down. And a lot of them are with women too. Like, some of them are married.

John [00:25:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:17]: That are telling you to hate women. They obviously don't hate women. They might not treat the person they're with very well.

John [00:25:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:23]: But if you're listening to someone tell you to do whatever you want, like, don't worry about women because they suck when they have a woman.

John [00:25:33]: Right. And when you. They'll say, I don't hate women. We don't hate women. But it's not a truth. Because if you think of someone to such a low degree, that's the same thing as hating them. You might not say, oh, I hate women. But if you, if you see someone only as having negative attributes and that is what you focus on and that's what you talk about every day, then that is equivalent to hating them. Whether you say the words I hate them or not, you are expressing hatred towards that group. And the contrast of this too, which I think this is interesting because now people are coming back somewhat the other way. They're like, well, we don't want this. Is that. You know, back in the day, we've talked about this before. I used to be a dating coach. Used to teach guys how to pick up women. Pick up coach, whatever, pickup artist, whatever you want to call that. And that coaching for men was pretty valuable now. Right. Given it's almost like the lesser of two evils. But I wouldn't even call it an evil. It's just not the fulfillment. It's better for a man to find fulfillment in one woman, to not be chasing women and trying to have one night stands. Like we know this, right? It is so much better to have a better than perfect relationship and to have.

Nicole [00:26:54]: Well, it's better to just not use women to make yourself feel better. Yeah, like I get what you're saying that like they need to learn the skill. And to be honest, like I don't even think it's necessarily the getting laid part. I think it's the skills that you need, the social skills of going up and talking to people because that translates not just to women, but I think that I need to say that using women.

John [00:27:18]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:27:20]: Just to fulfill something that's missing inside of you, that you need a woman to have sex with you to feel better about yourself. That is also another sort of danger that men can get into and plenty of men do. So it's a delicate balance. Like I agree with you.

John [00:27:39]: Well, and, and yeah, just. I'm glad you said that because it, it's not again, that still would be that even if you're that kind of person, that's still, you're still not committing violence. So you're still in a better place. It's not where we want to be. It's not ever what I taught. Just to be on the record as well. My teachings, even in that area of picking up women were more akin to when we'll talk about his book, Zan Parrion, he wrote a book called the Alabaster Girl which is a really good book for all single men should read that book and understand that. But of romancing women, you know, is being a seducer as opposed to a user. Right. So, but, but my point is, is that like teaching guys how to pick up women, it's a growth mindset. They're learning that there are things that they can do that can improve their situation, that they can get laid, that they can get a woman's interest. These are important skills to learn because it gets rid of hopelessness. And so as much as some people look down on oh, you're teaching guys to pick up women. Yeah, but do you realize what's going to happen if these guys don't learn that? They're going to learn other things. They're going to have a fixed mindset. Again, I'm not saying that they should be jerks and whatever. That's never going to be the teaching. But they have to. Young men especially have to learn to go out there and go and talk to women. They have to overcome Those fears they have to learn to develop themselves, to go to the gym, to dress better, to do the things that show them that there is some sovereignty, some. They're not. You know, what's happening is they're getting learned helplessness. Right. You've read the studies with the dogs and the. Right. So it's like they need something to teach them that they can improve their situation.

Nicole [00:29:37]: But I think they need that as children, and I think all children do. And I think that I'm going to be bold here and say this, that the therapy culture, the bad therapy culture, of just coddling. Yes. Validating to a point of not trying to actually, like, fix anything and allowing, you know, not just kids, but adults to constantly refer back to these things and just live there rather than work through it, is harming all of our children. And I think that, yes, what you said is necessary, but I think that as parents, ourselves, like, where a lot of parents are messing up because they're scared to be bad parents, and they're scared to do the wrong thing. And I've, you know, been guilty of this as well, too, is, you know, they want to save their kids from making a mistake, and so they help them, and they don't really allow the kid to go through things and to fail and, you know, to be last or, you know, things that we've kind of taken away from children. And that's why they don't even try a lot of the time. They're afraid to try because they're afraid to fail.

John [00:30:49]: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:30:50]: And so they don't even start. And so they don't have this resilience that we had when we were growing up. And I'm not saying that how we grew up was great either. I know everybody our age has some sort of things that they went through that, you know, our parents didn't necessarily get right. But I think that we focused as now we're parents so much on, okay, well, we're gonna try to get everything right that we've actually taken away the hard opportunities from our children to do stuff and suffer the consequence, or maybe it doesn't turn out the way that they want, and now they can't handle that.

John [00:31:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:32]: Because we have taken away that hard moment.

John [00:31:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:35]: And either they do have that hard moment, and we try to minimize it, you know, in a way that instead of, like, supporting them and being like, I'm sorry that you're going through this, we're like, oh, well, they don't know what they're talking about. You're the best one there. So our children are believing this and I'm not saying to tell them that they're, hey, look, you came in last.

John [00:31:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:57]: But supporting them in a way of like I'm really sorry, that's gotta be really hard. Like do you wanna talk more about it? Or in that way. Versus trying to diminish their failures to the point where now they've never failed because in their mind it didn't make sense.

John [00:32:15]: Yeah. The other people were wrong. It's not their fault.

Nicole [00:32:19]: And then now when they are in a disagreement or something like this happens, they can't handle it or they deny the reality because we've also helped them deny the reality by telling them, oh, you know, that doesn't. They don't know what they're talking about. And I think like after watching this and you know, being parents ourselves, that I'm not saying make it harder for your kids by any means, but I'm saying that we need to learn how to support them through the hard things and in a way that doesn't diminish their journey to resilience. Because so many kids, not just these boys, but so many kids from a very young age can't handle failure. And this is just another failure in these boys minds. They're failing to be the men that women want.

John [00:33:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:11]: And so they're not even going to try to be.

John [00:33:13]: That is out of their control because it's genetic. They didn't, they're just, they, they are the incel. That's just what they are. Right. That's the thing. It's like we, I mean, you saw what happened when, you know, we had the thing. I don't know if we talked about the podcast, but a couple of months ago or so with, with our daughter where she was saying something about, you know, I won't get into the details, but I told her, no, it is your fault. And she, that was like she erupted. It was a blow up.

Nicole [00:33:41]: Yeah.

John [00:33:41]: Because you know, it's just foreign like, yeah, no, it is your fault. It's like, I'm not mad at you. It's not a big deal. Like, it's like it can be, but yeah, it is not someone else's fault. You're, you're the one, it's your fault. And that's, that's the message that, that, that children need to be able to have in order to, so that you.

Nicole [00:34:02]: Have the growth mindset. Right. Like, because if you don't think anything's your fault, why do you need to change? Why do you need to grow? You're good. You're always winning. Even when you lose, you're always winning. So why do you need to do anything differently?

John [00:34:15]: Because it's. Taking responsibility is the first step to actualization, to realizing that you have control. You're actually powerless when you blame. That's why when you blame people, if you go to Attorney Robbins seminar, he'll always say, if you blame them for the bad, then blame them for the good.

Nicole [00:34:35]: Yeah.

John [00:34:36]: You have to blame them for both. And that's. It's okay. You're either gonna take your. The responsibility. You either did it or they did it. But it's 100%. You can't just blame for the bad. I'm trying to think. I think the book Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke, I think she talks about the idea that. And there's a couple of books that talk about this is this idea that we ascribe the good things that happen to us. Well, I did that, but the bad things. Oh, that was luck. It wasn't my fault. Someone else did it.

Nicole [00:35:09]: Blame someone else.

John [00:35:10]: So we take responsibility for the good things that maybe luck, we might have gotten lucky. Oh, it was my skill. Right. Because when she's talking about poker, playing poker. Yeah. Yeah. When you win, yeah, it's your skill. But when you lose, oh, it's bad luck. Right. And so that's. That's the thing about it. But. But. Yeah, but. But the whole thing is, is that like I was saying about. About even the pickup or teaching guys to talk to women. And those guys aren't going to become violent because they have hope, because they know that they could succeed, that they could become better, that they could learn some game, whatever it is, that it's not just the genetics they were born with that limit them. And it's such a destructive thing when you allow someone to believe that they have no hope, they have no way of improving their situation. And I think that one of the things that's kind of missing from that. That show, because I fear that. And we talked about this, is that I fear that one of the things that may happen is that there's even more hatred towards these young boys or men or masculinity in general, thinking that that's bad because the father is angry. And it's like he. And he learned that from. And the thing is that we do need to have empathy for these. For men in general that are somewhat outcast or feel. Because today in society, there's not really a place for masculinity like Women are more applauded for their masculinity than men are. When men display masculinity, it's generally frowned upon or they need to get on some medication. Right? There's a lot of this in the cultural zeitgeist. I can't ever say that word. But. But also, it's just, you know, these guys, they. They truly do feel like they are incels. They. They feel like they are in that bottom 20% or whatever it is that they're not going to. They don't have any hope, right. They don't know how to talk to women. They are afraid that they're never going to have sex in their life. Right. That no woman is going to like them, and that produces rage.

Nicole [00:37:22]: We get into the empathy and the masculinity. I want to tap into a few things that you had said before. Before you go too far.

John [00:37:30]: Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Nicole [00:37:33]: When I had brought up about teaching kids resilience and things like that, I think that that helps boys and girls, obviously, to learn from an early age how to have a growth mindset. And that's why I brought that up. Because if they're learning that they have the power to make a change, and if they change things or think about things differently, that they can get a different outcome, and they see that that helps promote a growth mindset. So that would also help that by the time they reach 13 years old, if they see something on the Internet, they can think more about it rather than just believing what this person is saying. So that's why I brought up that, you know, teaching resilience in children and like, allowing them to fail but being a support for them when they do will help them in all aspects, and it'll help them from a very young age learn the growth mindset and hopefully perpetuate that forward. And then.

John [00:38:35]: Oh, let me get. Let me go off of what you said, though.

Nicole [00:38:37]: Okay?

John [00:38:38]: So in the show, right, One of the things was the. They were trying to. The. The father and mother were trying to figure out at the end of the show, like, what happened. Like, how did we. Did we screw up? And they did. And the father was like, yeah, he was basically. I tried to make him more tough and more masculine. I enrolled him in football, and then he was not good at football, and I was kind of ashamed. And so I put him into boxing. And then that didn't last for very long. He didn't want to do boxing. Then he started drawing, and then I got him a computer, and it was like the thing I Think that was missed that maybe even it was, it was just not even in the show. Like they weren't even really highlighting what, what they actually revealed was that the problem was that the father put him in football and then moved him to something he didn't make him stick with that thing.

Nicole [00:39:31]: Yeah. Because for like a full term. Right. Because it's not like kids can't have the option to do a different spot sport.

John [00:39:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:39]: But like you said, and like we do ourselves is that if you make a commitment, that's a year long commitment, you have to at least do the year.

John [00:39:47]: Right. And, and, and he like, if you stuck with it, if you suck at something and then you just get to move on to the next thing, you don't get the growth mindset because you're like, okay, some things I suck at, some things I'm good at. That's not how it actually works. Like the kids that are good at football were the ones who practice, who played, who. Some, maybe, maybe they had some natural athletic ability. But at some point what you had naturally doesn't matter. It's how much work you put in in practice that you put in. And so where the father really screwed up and where parents screw up today in not teaching children resilience is they don't make them stick with something because they need to stick with something. Especially if they suck at it, even if they don't like it, that's fine. They need to stick with it long enough to make some progress and learn that they can actually improve and at a thing. Because once a child, once a human being learns that they can actually improve at a thing, then they get rid of that fixed mindset.

Nicole [00:40:43]: Yeah. And that hopelessness because they can see the growth to themselves. And I wanted to talk to what you said about the genetics thing about the content creators that are like it's genetic and you just don't have the genetics which is causing these boys. And you see it in the show too, to now be like, I'm ugly, just tell me I'm not ugly.

John [00:41:05]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:06]: Which is exactly how women feel in a different way. And when we were watching it, yeah. I was like, it's very interesting that boys are now struggling with this like physical appearance problem that women have always struggled with. And it is in a different way because they feel like, oh, it's just genetics. Which 13 year old boys should not be afraid of their genetics because they're not going to look like a 13 year old boy for the rest of their life. And but if you instill in a 13 year old boy at 13 that he's just not gonna be genetically gifted. That even if he does become genetically gifted, he's still probably super insecure because you've made him super insecure at 13 years old. And young girls become super insecure at a very young age because they see either social media as well too, or you know, they see grown adult women with a lot of plastic surgery and they're like, I don't look like her. And you know, and they're 13 or they're whatever. Even when they're older they're like, I don't look like that. So then they go towards plastic surgery or things like that to like make themselves look how they think is appealing. And so now these boys are getting into the same sort of like, I'm ugly.

John [00:42:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:42:26]: Posting stuff on the Internet you see in the show too, just to get likes so that they feel better about themselves.

John [00:42:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:33]: And that's why too when you mentioned the pickup thing, like it should not be about using that to feel good about yourself.

John [00:42:40]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:42:41]: Because what both girls have always needed, because they have struggled with this for a very long time and now boys obviously need is learning how to have confidence in themselves that is not external. Yes.

John [00:42:55]: Externally validated.

Nicole [00:42:56]: Right, exactly. And now since these red pill guys are promoting, well, it's genetics and you need to look like this instead of guys going to the gym or you know, 13 year old boys being like, well, I'm not grown up yet, I haven't even really hit puberty. Probably then and then realizing that they're not going to always look this way. There's things that they can do and that women don't even primarily look for looks the way that men do.

John [00:43:27]: Yeah, exactly. It's not this. Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:28]: Like if they had the ability to think in this way.

John [00:43:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:33]: Or like, like I said, had the resilience where maybe they're like, no, you know, like I don't look the same as I looked when I was 10.

John [00:43:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:40]: I'm not gonna look 13 forever.

John [00:43:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:42]: You know, they don't. It needs to. We need to be teaching them how to have confidence in themselves, in other things that aren't just physical outward appearance. Which I feel like women are trying to teach young girls more about that because we've lived through this. But now after watching that, it was crazy to see that now the boys, which I'm not saying boys never dealt with this, but the way that he described it is this sort of like more extreme version that men and girls have Dealt with forever. And we understand. And that's the thing, too, going into, like, the empathy and the masculinity is like, we can understand where those men are coming from.

John [00:44:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:26]: Like feeling like you're ugly. And the funny thing, it feels like.

John [00:44:29]: It'S out of your control. Right, right.

Nicole [00:44:31]: It's like, I was born this way.

John [00:44:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:33]: Like, I can't do anything about it. But the also weird thing about it is that those same men who feel bad about themselves and women do this as well too, who are insecure, will pick on someone else.

John [00:44:47]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:44:47]: And call them ugly.

John [00:44:48]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:50]: And so, again, having that confidence in yourself that doesn't stem from how you look.

John [00:44:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:56]: Is also what we need to be cultivating, especially in the children. Because if you have confidence as a child.

John [00:45:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:02]: And things are going to happen, they're going to have moments. You know, we were all kids at one time, and it's hard to deal with our peers and bullying and even going through puberty and the changes that happen with that. But I think that it's just a lot of the parenting stuff does play somewhat of a role into it because we should be teaching our children some of these things in a better way than we've been doing, and that will help them when they face things like stuff on the Internet. Because at this point, yes, as a parent, I also think you should be limiting your kids Internet access and, like, making things age appropriate that they're exposed to. But also, we're just getting more and more technical. And that's why these core things like resilience and confidence are so much more important to teach. Because we can't control where technology is going. And once our kids are 18, we can't control what they're doing. And so if we give them the things that they need inside to fight through the outside external circumstances, like watching red pill content or even being a woman and having a man leave you a hateful comment. Like teaching our children how to deal with those things and our teenagers will help them more than, you know, just trying to totally control things that we can't even necessarily control. Would I like the, like, damaging red pill stuff to be off the Internet so these boys don't even get exposed to it. Yeah, but I can't control that well.

John [00:46:47]: And the thing is that. Well, okay, so I agree with what you're saying, but I also say that we do need to, like, as a parent, a child today cannot have unfiltered Internet access. Not at all. You can't even. It has to Be, you have to be monitoring. There has to be. There is no going in your room with the door shut, on a computer, on any kind of electronic device. There's none of that. That cannot be. You cannot trust your child to do that. Because the thing about it too, is that, yeah, when they're 18, they're gonna be able to do whatever they want to do. But here's the thing is, first of all, is that this stuff is not good for anyone at any age. So there's no age appropriateness of when you should drink poison, right? It's like, yeah, you know, you're right. Never. Right. The same thing with alcohol. It's like, yeah, look, if you're drinking alcohol, it's fine, but you shouldn't be because it's just, you're just poisoning yourself. There's no age at which this becomes an appropriate behavior, right. Or to like escapism, to drown your sorrows and alcohol or, you know. Yeah. And there's no age. Let's just not, you know, mince words with it. And then the other thing about it is that there, there is, however, this concept of, you know, if people are like, well, they're going to get exposed to this stuff anyway, we need to prepare them for it. Which I do agree, we need to prepare them for it. But the thing, the best way I've heard it said, this is not my own original thing, but is that if you have an oak tree, right, it starts out as a sapling, right. And that saproling, you can't say, oh, well, I need to not shelter it because it needs to be able to withstand the winds and the storms. No. While it's growing up, you shelter it as much as possible so that it can have a chance to build a strong, sturdy root system and trunk. And so then when the winds come, then you take the shelter off and it's strong enough to withstand it. So a lot of, I think parents get it confused and like, well, I can't shield them from all this stuff anyway. No, you shield them as long as you can and instill in them all the values that you can to teach them right from wrong morality, to build their character, to build their resilience, like you said, to operate from a higher level, to teach them to respond in love to things instead of bullying and hatred. And then, yeah, when they're 18, yeah, they're gonna get exposed to all this stuff, but now they'll be in a much stronger position to handle it. Whereas you take an average 10, 11, 12, 13 year old kid, no matter what you're teaching them and how much you're trying to build their character, can they resist the porn on the Internet?

Nicole [00:49:22]: Right.

John [00:49:23]: Can they resist this content that is telling them all of these things? That's brainwashed. It doesn't matter what you're doing as a parent, that is so much of a stronger pull. They're not ready for that.

Nicole [00:49:33]: Their brains aren't fully developed.

John [00:49:35]: But if they've been in an environment that's sheltered, it's good to be in a sheltered environment for a long period of time in order to develop that strength, then they get exposed to it, they're going to survive. It's the same thing. It's the whole argument. Originally, our daughter was homeschooled and people, oh, you're sheltering her? I'm like, yeah, damn right I'm sheltering her. I'm going to shelter her. She needs to be sheltered, because when she becomes an adult, then she can. She'll be strong enough to handle that stuff. But I'll shelter a child as long as possible.

Nicole [00:50:08]: Yeah. I think people confuse sheltering with not teaching their children how to deal with the things that they're sheltering them from. And that's the difference is because when someone hears, you know, someone's homeschooled or don't allow your kids to have full access to the Internet, they think like, exactly. You just said, well, they're gonna deal with it someday. They're not gonna be prepared to deal with it. But that's where it's wrong. I'm not saying that some parents don't shelter and then they don't teach their kids how to deal with this. That does happen. But what you should be doing is, like you said, is sheltering or limiting while also teaching how to deal with these things.

John [00:50:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:49]: Because, yes, our daughter doesn't have full access to the Internet, but we have very open and honest conversations with her and to the point where she can talk to us about anything that she wants to talk to us about, and we don't get angry. You know, we've told her, too, that when she gets to a point and she goes out and maybe she does drink, even though we don't drink, that if she ever needs help, we will pick her up. No hesitations asked. She can always call us. If she's not where she said she was supposed to be, she can still call us. That doesn't mean she won't have the consequences for doing certain things like that.

John [00:51:24]: But she won't have the judgment. She'll have the consequences without the judgment. And that's, I think that's what's key.

Nicole [00:51:29]: But. And it, it causes this open dialogue as well too, that where if she is an adult, right, and she's struggling with something, that she can also come and talk to us about it. And she has all these books that we've read and conversations we've had with her about a whole bunch of different stuff where she's not unprepared. Right, Exactly. Like, she's not unprepared emotionally. Like, we've had conversations about some of the topics that we've talked about, you know, like her getting older and, you know, certain things like that, like things that are more prone to happen. We've had conversations about those things. That doesn't mean she's allowed to go do those things. It doesn't mean that she's going to get free rein to like, come and go as she pleases. But it allows us to have that connection with her where if something were to happen, that she could call us and she knows that we could help her or she can lean on her own knowledge of what we've had in the discussions about those things. And I understand discussions aren't the same as being in that space situation, but also what people don't realize is that when you protect your child while also educating them on these things, they are less likely to even get in those bad situations. It's not saying it never would happen. I'm not talking unrealistic here in that show.

John [00:52:53]: What happened? And first of all, she has no access to social media aside from Pinterest, which maybe it was a mistake, but, but these kids were on Instagram, right? And they were posting on Instagram. And then what actually happened was that they didn't even realize this, but the girl had bullied the boy by calling him an incel and by secretly by. With the emojis. And it took the other boy, that was the main detective's son to, to decipher that, to tell them, hey, you don't even know what you're, what's going on. This girl is bullying him, you know, and so, but, but there's a couple of things in there, right? It's like one, the social media. But two is also. Look, that's, that's part of the education too, as a woman. Do not provoke guys to rage. Like, don't do it. Like, just respond in love. Like, nor. That's fine. But don't, you don't know. Because that's one thing that, I mean, we need to have this conversation with, with our daughter.

Nicole [00:53:53]: I've had the conversation with her.

John [00:53:54]: It's like, well, yeah, we've talked about it before. But to really, I want her to hear about this show a little bit. Not the, not to watch it. I don't think she needs to watch it, but yeah, I don't think she needs to watch it. But, but to hear that, like, look, this is serious. Like you don't know who's going to, who is listening to crazy content online and will stab you. Like, don't, don't make fun of boys. Don't treat them badly. Don't, you know, whatever, even if they deserve it, don't do it. Just, just be kind to people. And that just goes for all of us in general. You don't, you're road raid situation, you don't know who is driving behind you that has had a really bad day. Their wife just left them, they got a gun in the car. They don't care. So it's like, it's just good advice in general.

Nicole [00:54:38]: But yeah, it is.

John [00:54:38]: But yeah, but the social media was a big thing because that's where you're comparing yourself to each other and, and.

Nicole [00:54:44]: Yeah, and it ties into the bullying and comp. Like the confident lack of confidence thing. But you're right that people need more empathy. I did a tick tock on something different.

John [00:54:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:55]: But talking about this and you know, when we were talking about the empathy for these boys and men, you know, I brought up that as a woman, it's hard sometimes.

John [00:55:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:05]: When men talk to you so hatefully in the comments or to your face because they're subscribed to that. Women hating ideas and that. It's all our fault. It's very hard to be empathetic and you know, kind to somebody acting that way towards you. But like you said, sometimes too, just being like, you know what, I wish you the best. And ignoring them is better than engaging with a man like that. Because what I've learned too as a woman is that you cannot fight anger with anger. You can't fight fire with fire. And especially with men, you cannot have a man understand what you're talking about by also being angry back towards him. No, that just makes him more angry. You have to think of it through his perspective. If he's yelling at you and saying all these things and you say him back, you've just proved his point in his mind that women are horrible.

John [00:56:03]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:56:04]: And so he's gonna double down even more. And like you said, maybe even Go even more into the violent area.

John [00:56:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:56:10]: And so I'm not saying just allow men to act this way, but you should not engage or you can say, I'm sorry, you know, for whatever you're going through, because anybody who's acting out in anger is going through something or they have some sort of fear, like I mentioned in the beginning, that is stemming this anger, and then ignore them and block them or whatever you need to do. But fighting the anger with the anger with anybody is not going to get your point across. It's not going to garner more empathy or compassion. And I think also some of the men that are angry need to realize this too. Like, I'm not expecting them to change their behavior.

John [00:56:51]: Yeah, but.

Nicole [00:56:52]: But like in the TikTok that I made, people want empathy and compassion and they don't give it.

John [00:56:59]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:57:00]: And I'm not saying you have to give it in order to get it. But if you're expecting empathy and compassion as like an angry man from women, you have to give that. You have to embody that. Like, I'm not saying that it's a tit for tat. I'm saying, though, that if you're expecting that from the world, you have to give that to the world.

John [00:57:23]: And I mean, I think it's worth saying, though, like. Like we were talking about or we got a little bit into is the message. The thing that's really important to understand is that there needs to be empathy for these guys. As vile as they are to a degree, they're victims as well, right? They victimize people, but they are also victims because they're brainwashed, because they have believed that there's no hope. That a lot of people in that situation would act in a horrible way when they believe there's no hope in the world is against them and women are against them or whatever it is. And so it's sad. It's sad place to be. It is to be afraid that you have no future. To think that women don't. Like, when you believe all these things, you're in a place, a very dark place, right? And it's kind of interesting. Cause in the show, too, there was that contrast, right? I remember the very. If you watch the show. If you watch the show, the main police officer dude, he's the black dude, he's jacked, you know, I'm like, damn, that dude is jacked. You know, he's like, jacked. He's ripped. He's, you know, he's just jacked, right? And there's a Reason why they cast that guy, I didn't know at first, but. But then when you see his son, his son is kind of this lanky, awkward, dorky kid, right? And it's like the father doesn't understand that boy struggle. He doesn't even have any clue, right? Even. Even one of the other kids, he interviews him and he's like, yeah, I bet you're popular in high school. And he's like, yeah, I did. Well, you know, I did for my. You know, he. He. The kid actually tricked him into, like, into what he was trying to get from him, which was, you know, I didn't see it at the time, but now looking back on it, that kid tricked him because he wanted him to prove his point that he was an incel. Right? And he did. He took the bait because his pride that, you know, even though that guy was one of the good characters in the. He took the bait, his pride, his ego ragged a little bit about the thing, which. Boom. Which was the thing. But. But. But the thing to understand is that that's how they're viewing the world is they're like, oh, wow, these other people are the haves, and I'm the have not, right? And it's. It's. It is really a. A sad place. So. So these guys that are acting out, that are, you know, whatever, Andrew Tate or whatever, they're. They're following and they're. They're saying these nasty things towards. Towards women. We're not going to solve the problem by attacking them and telling them they're bad people, they're doing bad things. They're not bad people. They're doing bad things. And the way we solve that problem is by having empathy for them and saying that there's a reason why you're doing this and we're not going to attack you. I want to show you a better way. I want to give you hope, to give these people hope and to help them to rehabilitate, to see that life is not futile because. And to really understand what their actual struggles are. Because I think a lot of people. And the reason why the whole Andrew Tate thing became very popular and why so many young men still follow him is because he understands them. That's what they feel like. They feel like he understands the struggle that they're facing, and they feel alienated because everyone looks down and they're like, oh, yeah, you guys suck. You guys are horrible. You're just toxic. Masculinity, whatever. And so it reinforces this message that leads them to these cult Leaders that teach them the wrong thing because they. They're the only ones who understand them.

Nicole [01:01:05]: Right?

John [01:01:05]: If we in general become, you know, society at large becomes the ones who understand them, then they're not going to turn to the. You know what I mean? Like, that's. That's the problem. It's just like you said about. About what we teach our daughter is like, at a party and you're drinking alcohol, even though you're not supposed to. And we don't drink alcohol. You can call us. That's the empathy, that's the understanding, that's the creating it, where you're not bad, you're not wrong. But imagine if we had a different viewpoint. If we're like, all right, if you ever are out at a party, if you're drinking alcohol, you're underage. That's horrible. You're bad. A daughter who is my daughter should never, ever be doing that. I would be ashamed of you. Right? Do you think she's going to call when she's in trouble? And that's what these. That's what these young kids. That's what these men are. They're like, I don't want to go to get help. I don't want to talk to women. I don't like this Andrew Tate guy, this red pill guy on the Internet. He understands me. That's why they go to them and that. And so we're reinforcing the problem by not having empathy for these guys, not. Not to let them do whatever they want to do. I'm not in any way saying that, but what I'm saying is that you have to understand that these. These guys are deeply hurting. They're deeply scared, like you said, and that's why they're being drawn into these things. And there's truth, there's validity to the problems that they're saying. There's validity. Even the guys that are like, oh, marriage is such a bad deal for men, or the divorce court or all this stuff, there's some validity to these concerns. And to guys that have been burned by women and all, there's validity to these things. And we have to acknowledge and say, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, life is hard. These things are hard. This is it. But here's a better way rather than, oh, there's nothing you can do about it.

Nicole [01:02:58]: Right?

John [01:02:58]: You know?

Nicole [01:02:59]: Yeah, no, I agree with you. And to, like, finish up. I think it's a good segue into the Diary of a CEO podcast episode that we were talking about earlier, that basically the whole podcast is talking about how men don't have outlets to be men anymore in the proper way.

John [01:03:18]: Yeah, it.

Nicole [01:03:19]: We've taken away Boy Scouts. Men don't have like communities of other men to talk to about things anymore. And that is also why so many of these boys and men are going towards these masculine figures because they're essentially to some of the only ones or they're the loudest ones. Right. Because they're so angry. And so instead of a 13 year old having Boy Scouts to go to or even, like you said, just committing for a year to try out football and then maybe try out some other sort of thing that they're interested in, we've taken those things away as a society because we were trying to course correct, you know, some of the bad, quote, bad masculine behavior that we saw before. But now, honestly, a lot of the red pill, black pill stuff is a lot worse than what we even saw before. And now these men and boys don't have an outlet to be supported by actual masculine men.

John [01:04:25]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:04:26]: That will help them learn resilience and have confidence in themselves and kind of keep them from experiencing this hopeless. And I think some of it too is also, again, the rise of technology. And, you know, kids, we talked about this too, are so much more chronically online than we were as kids. And so, you know, I think it's important if you have boys to try to get them into something that they like where they're also surrounded by competition. Other boys and men that they can look up to, they were talking about in the podcast episode that there's not a lot of male teachers anymore and there's not a lot of like, coaches because men aren't getting that recognition that they used to before. So these boys are, you know, having a harder time finding these men to really look up to, especially if they're in a single mother household. And they talked about how even if you're a single mother, to get your sons around men that you trust that could be like your family members, your neighbor, you know, people that you look up to as a man.

John [01:05:40]: Right.

Nicole [01:05:41]: And allow your son to be around that person when you're picking a partner as a woman to really, you know, if you have sons, to really think about the influence that he would also have on your children.

John [01:05:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:05:56]: And the whole episode was just really great at, you know, showing that we tried as a society to, quote, do the right thing and to make things more peaceful by feminizing it.

John [01:06:12]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:13]: But that isn't what is appropriate for men and boys. And they need that healthy, masculine Outlet.

John [01:06:21]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:22]: And so we need to now, as a society, to bring those things back in the correct way, because now we've seen. Seen.

John [01:06:29]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:30]: How doing that and then allowing people doing it in the incorrect way to take over that space.

John [01:06:36]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:06:37]: Is damaging our men and boys in society.

John [01:06:41]: Well, it's like I was saying, if you, if you take away guns from a society, who has the guns?

Nicole [01:06:50]: The criminals.

John [01:06:51]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:51]: Yeah.

John [01:06:51]: And that's not who. So masculinity, when you try to feminize society. Yeah. Do you get rid of some of the. Are you trying to get rid of some of the bad aspects of bad masculine actors? Toxic masculinity isn't even a thing, because masculinity is masculinity. But like I was telling you, one of my. One of my friends, Jack Donovan, wrote a book called the Way of Men. And in that book, he talks about this idea that there's men and there's good men, but being a man and being a good man are not the same thing. You can be a man, you can be extremely masculine and not be a good man. It's true. It's possible. Right. So when you try to get rid of that element by getting rid of masculinity, because with masculinity comes the good and the bad, Right. You end up with just the bad, because the guys that just like the criminals, who don't care about the gun laws, the guys that are masculine, that are manly, that are bad, they don't care that you're trying to feminize society. They're going to rebel against that. They're going to do whatever the hell they want to do. And, but, but what happened is, though, you, You. You got rid of the ones to defend, because what happens when you don't have the protectors? Those guys aren't. Where did they go? They. They got. They got crushed. Their spirits got crushed, their souls got crushed. Those young kids got told, no, don't be masculine. Be feminist or be effeminate. Be feminine. Effeminate as a boy. And now you don't have any protectors now, you know, because what happened, that's.

Nicole [01:08:17]: Why the dating scene is the way that it is today. And they talked about that in the podcast. Episode two is that women are like, there's no good men left, you know, but it's like we as a society also did this to men. We didn't give them the proper outlets for them to be masculine. And we were so afraid for them to be masculine in the wrong way that we made them more feminine.

John [01:08:40]: Right.

Nicole [01:08:40]: And then now we're craving, as women, as feminine women wanting to be feminine again, these masculine men, but we destroyed them in a way.

John [01:08:49]: And in all these areas. Right. It used to be, I mean, this is not going to be popular opinion, but I'll say it anyway, is that, hey, like police, firefighter, especially military, that used to be man, not a woman. Woman's role is not to put her life on the line. And I appreciate the women that do that. I think they do it for a good reason, and I'm not trying to knock them. But I'm saying that you've taken away, like, as a society, we've taken away the role for men to be the ones who go and fight in the war.

Nicole [01:09:19]: But I also think that they don't want to too, because they've been feminized. And so, like, a woman should be like, I don't really want to be a police officer to like, risk my life. And I have a woman friend that is a police officer. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with her, but it's like, you know, she's also probably stepping up because there's men that don't want to step up at all.

John [01:09:42]: Yeah, it's nothing to say anything bad against, against. Against women that, that do those things, but they would have to acknowledge that they have to be in their masculine to do it. Right. So. But what I'm saying is, though, as society, because we've allowed these things, we've displaced men in the roles that men are, you know, are congratulated in sports, in. Even in sports too. Right. It's like, oh, now there's WNBA and there's. It's like, it's fine. Like, you know. Yeah. It's not. I'm not saying that women can't play a sport, but what I'm saying is that like, these areas where men were looked up upon as being masculine, as winning, as victorious, like where they conquer, where they, you know, where they fight each other. Like, those are masculine domains that need to be the same thing with the Boy Scouts right now, it's like the Everybody Scouts, you need to have some things where men can fight other men, challenge other men, being competition with other men can do stuff that makes them. That gives a value to being a man in society. Right. That women, they don't get that place. They have their own place, you know, and it's important because if you don't have that, then. Then these boys don't have the, the environments. They don't have the Masculine role models, they don't have anything to. Why is it good to be a man? What. What is masculine? It's like, no, women can do this. Women can do everything a man can do. Then, okay, well, then. Then where do I. What. What place do I have? It's like, I get it. I agree that women can do, you know, things that. That a man can do, but that's not the message that we need to give. We need to say, oh, no, you're awesome because you're a man. And no, you're so strong. You're so masculine. You're so. Whatever it is, open this pickle jar for me. Right. Like, those are the things that make a boy. Because what. You know, we talked about this before. A boy wants to be a hero.

Nicole [01:11:30]: Yeah.

John [01:11:31]: And we have to allow men to be heroes if we want to solve this problem.

Nicole [01:11:35]: Well, and I think, too, I was thinking about this, the other feminists, they'll, you know, say that it's about women doing what they want to do and things like that, and it's about, you know, equality. But in that same breath, though, we've taken away these outlets for men and we can still have them.

John [01:11:57]: Right.

Nicole [01:11:58]: Like, they're still Girl Scouts, but they can't have them. And that's not fair. Like, I understand the fear of men following the wrong path, but because we made it unfair by. We can have our groups and you can't.

John [01:12:14]: Right.

Nicole [01:12:15]: Like us as women and men can't.

John [01:12:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:12:17]: We've actually created more power for those groups of men that as women, we didn't want.

John [01:12:25]: I told you, I walked into the gym that they still have the sign up that says hiring female janitor, and you said it's because they might need to clean the women's restroom. But I thought about that later. I thought about it the next day. Imagine if the sign said hiring male janitor. There would have been. That sign would not have lasted for 24 hours, that 24 hour fitness, because every woman that walked in that gym would have said, I need to talk to the manager. What is this? And it would have been gone. But it's acceptable. You see, what I'm saying is that's. It's just a small example of this, of where society has moved, where it's okay to create a space that creates something specifically for women, but it's not okay to create something specifically for men.

Nicole [01:13:09]: Yeah, well, and it's not fair, like I said, and men deserve to have their groups of men and organizations that are just for them and things like that just like we do as women and by acting like we deserve it and men don't, that's actually goes against everything that I would think that being a feminist is for, you know, like feminist is for women, but they say that it's for equality and, like, everyone being treated the same, but yet we're not treating men the same. And, you know, that is what I really come to realize. And even, like I said, the podcast and this Netflix show is showing the damage we've actually created by taking those things away from men. And we did it out of fear, which again, it's like, you know, women were angry at men all those years ago and still are now because of the fear, right? Like, they were afraid that they wouldn't have rights. Like, we used to not have rights back then, and they were angry. And now, you know, women are afraid of how violent men can get now, right? And so they're angry at them. And it's like, it's not just about these guys being afraid and being angry. Like, we're all living from this place of extreme fear and extreme anger. And that's why all the content that perpetuates anger and fear go so well. I mean, you have someone that you know and he. His whole content is just making things about stuff that's happening in the news or the world to, like, create this fear in people. Because that's what gets the views, right? Like, if we post things that make people freak out or make them angry, that's what's going to get the views. And we care more about views, we care more about likes, we care more about all these things that don't really matter. Then the things we've talked about this entire episode, which is like having the growth mindset and having resilience and having confidence in yourself and empathizing and having compassion, right? For someone that's different than you. And, you know, creating these safe, healthy spaces for men and boys to be masculine and to learn how to be a man in the right way. And that's also too why what you do with, like, bulldog mindset is so important because you really know how to be a man in the proper way and come from a place of love. And you were once a boy in high school that wrote a girl a love letter and she didn't want to go out with you. Like, I like, if anybody should be like, a model or like someone that boys should be look up to, it should be you. And so the world needs more men like you and men who are trying to teach Both boys and men, how to do things in the right way. And I hope that us talking about this and like I said with this Netflix show, I am a little bit worried, like you said, that it's still gonna demonize men and not get the empathy that it really should. But the diary of a CEO podcast that talked about this was great. They did it in a fantastic way. Maybe I've blamed society more than they did when they explained it, but I think it's also important for us to be like, we made a mistake.

John [01:16:39]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [01:16:39]: You know, like as a society, we made a mistake. And men and boys deserve to have these masculine spaces.

John [01:16:47]: Yeah, we threw the baby out with the bathwater. And that's what's. And that's. And like this problem will not go away. That's the thing. I know we're over on, but I think it's important to note that the problem, like if you have a huge group of men who are incels, who are not going to get laid, who don't feel like they have social mobility, who feel like women don't like them, that problem will not go away. You can ostracize them, you can say they're bad, you can pass law. Whatever you do, it's not going to go away. It's going to result in violence. That's what's going to happen. We got to wrap it up. But we talked about this too. I think this is an important point. Historically, the way that this was dealt with, and it was never at this extreme, was that there was always big wars that were fought and they were fought primarily by men and they killed off men. And so what happened was when you culled the population of men so that there was less men than women, then you didn't have this mass of guys that are never going to get laid, never going to get married, because there was plenty of women for those men, even if they weren't of the highest caliber. Of course, men were more caliber back then as well, and more masculine. But my point is, historically, that's why we haven't had these problems. Although there are. If you look at ancient history, you can find times where this was not the case. And so if it's not war that's going to kill enough men in order to solve this problem, it's got to be solved in another unique way, which is going to involve empathy and giving these guys hope and giving them spaces to be able to, you know, just like you were saying. But it is important to understand this, that historically, this is how the Problem was dealt with was at wars, and then primarily men are going to war and they die, and then what happens? Well, now there's a whole lot of women. There's not enough men. All those men are not prone to violence because they have women. You know, so it is true.

Nicole [01:18:52]: I mean, they were still kind of abusive at times.

John [01:18:56]: Yeah, I'm not suggesting that, but I would also make this argument to say that would women rather have men that are slightly chauvinist today that would never lay a hand on a woman. Right. That are maybe chauvinist in the macho kind of way of saying, like, I'm a man, whatever, but have a respect for women that would never lay a hand on a woman, that treat a woman as the more. The fairer, the more delicate sex, the weaker sex. Or to have the men that we have today that would lay a hand on a woman that are like, oh, it doesn't matter.

Nicole [01:19:31]: Like, you know, or a knife on a woman.

John [01:19:33]: Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying is I'm not suggesting that. That. That men should be chauvinist in that way. Right. Obviously. But what I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that most people would rather have that society.

Nicole [01:19:46]: I'm just saying that back then, like, women were kind of also stuck with men, so men could kind of behave however they wanted to. And I do think, without going too much into it, that now men have to step up even more than they did back then to be good men, because women can be on their own and survive. But I don't think men view that as a bad thing. But I don't think it's a bad thing. I think men now more than ever have the ability to be some of the greatest men that this world has ever seen. Because I feel like a lot of men in the past were not good men.

John [01:20:21]: Right. They have to be.

Nicole [01:20:23]: Today, men are learning how to be good men, to be versions of a man that a woman could never even imagine except in a romance novel.

John [01:20:32]: Right.

Nicole [01:20:32]: And so I think, again, like we've talked about this whole podcast is, you know, men and boys need to have the hope, like you said. They need to believe that they can grow and be better and that. That their future isn't determined by some random guy on the Internet posting a YouTube video.

John [01:20:51]: Yep, 100%. Yeah. I guess we were to wrap it up because we could talk about this.

Nicole [01:20:55]: We don't have anything for the end.

John [01:20:57]: Yeah, we didn't. We just.

Nicole [01:20:59]: We went a little over.

John [01:21:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:21:01]: On this one.

John [01:21:02]: Yeah. So that's it, you know, like. And subscribe.

Nicole [01:21:07]: As we sit here on our YouTube channel.

John [01:21:09]: Send us an email at better than perfect podcastmail.com if you have a question.

Nicole [01:21:14]: And we'll, we'll answer it and leave us a review.

John [01:21:17]: Yeah. And watch, watch the show if you.

Nicole [01:21:18]: Haven'T watched it and share with your friends.

John [01:21:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:21:21]: Yeah. Let us know in the comments what you guys thought about the Adolescence show or the Diary of a CEO podcast episode that we were talking about and curious to hear what you guys have to think.

John [01:21:31]: Yeah. All right. See you next week.

Nicole [01:21:35]: Through every fault, we find our way.