John [00:00:00]: The key hallmark to know you're in a toxic relationship is when you get into conflicts. Is it a net negative or net positive? It's a net negative. It's going to keep on being net negative. Like, it's getting worse and worse. If you got a spider bite on your arm and it's like, you know, two days later, it's disappearing, it's healing up. You're like, oh, okay, you know, oh, it wasn't poisonous. Right. But if it's like two days later and it's like, expanding the circle, like the flesh is starting to fall off your arm, it's getting worse. It's not.

Nicole [00:00:27]: Yeah.

John [00:00:28]: You probably need medical help. Beyond the perfect widow discovered through our.

Nicole [00:00:33]: Flaws we complete each other Better than.

John [00:00:37]: Perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:56]: That's right.

John [00:00:57]: Yeah. And we're on a marathon session today of recording podcasts because John's broken. Yeah. So, but that's. It's all good.

Nicole [00:01:07]: Which I think they'll be able to see.

John [00:01:12]: Obvious. But. Yeah. What else has been going on, you know, in our. In our lives, in the world at large?

Nicole [00:01:23]: In the world. I've kind of been avoiding the world. Indeed. Just dealing with our world.

John [00:01:27]: That's true. Yeah. I haven't really.

Nicole [00:01:29]: I don't know what's really happening.

John [00:01:31]: Yeah, we haven't seen. I haven't. I don't think we've seen much on the comments and our stuff either. Right. Like, nothing really.

Nicole [00:01:37]: No, no, just Kevin just.

John [00:01:39]: Yeah, Kevin just.

Nicole [00:01:41]: Just talking to himself in the comments. It's okay. Thanks, Kevin, for the engagement. We appreciate it.

John [00:01:46]: Well, I guess we might as well just get right into the topic then, so. Because this is probably the one. Yeah. The toxic relationships.

Nicole [00:01:53]: Toxic relationships. We realized we hadn't done a full episode on toxic relationships.

John [00:01:59]: Gosh, where do we even begin with toxic relationships?

Nicole [00:02:03]: Yeah, there's a lot of layers. I mean, I guess we should probably define.

John [00:02:09]: Oh, what is it?

Nicole [00:02:10]: The things that would make you suspicious that you're in a toxic relationship. And like, a lot of people say toxic relationship, but they're just toxic. Yeah. Well, a lot of times you can be the toxic one in your toxic relationship and not even know it. But I guess how I would define it is if you're in a relationship where there's a lot of highs and there's a lot of lows and they're frequent and the lows make you feel like this doesn't feel right. Like, you know, the way that they treat you, you're very concerned about. But then there's good times, and you get along and, like, you're really good friends when the times are good. Because I think that it's important to talk about the dynamics in a toxic relationship, because usually it's those good times that keep people stuck in that relationship. And that's not to say that relationships don't have highs and lows and that, you know, you're not gonna have arguments in a healthy relationship. Like, obviously we're not saying that because we get on here and talk about, you know, how we actually handle those things. But I feel like from the toxic relationship experience that I had, you know, the good times were good, and I was like, this person's my friend. I enjoy hanging out with them. But when it was bad, I would be like, this is. This just doesn't feel right. Like, something about it is, like, really bad. Yeah, yeah. It's like not loving. It's like a. It's like a Jekyll and Hyde situation, which I feel like it can also be something to think about. If you feel like you might be in a toxic relationship is that one minute your partner is so one way, and then one minute they're so the other way that it, like, it feels more abrupt than if you're in a healthy relationship and you just end up having an argument. Because it can still feel. Feel. You could still feel kind of blindsided in a healthy relationship by an argument. But I do feel like there's a distinct. Like, it's usually very bad. You guys have, like, very explosive, like, not productive arguments. And there's, you know, emotional abuse or physical abuse, but then you guys somehow resolve it, and then you're happy, go lucky. And, like, you're like, oh, everything's great. But then it happens again. That's what I would kind of define the toxic dynamic as.

John [00:04:39]: I think. Yeah, I think I have a similar definition. I think maybe a more simplified definition is what I've been thinking about, is that a toxic relationship and see what you think about this is a relationship where when you have fights, the relationship becomes worse instead of better. Where there's not growth, where there's deterioration, right? Because in a healthy relationship, you have fights, right? You have arguments, but it's like going to the gym and lifting weights, right? Like, you tear down the muscle, you build it up stronger, right? So you're growing, right? You're hermosis. In a toxic relationship, it's like not going to the gym. It's like getting beat the hell up and like, like injuring yourself. And you're permanently disabled now. You know, it's like you're, you're, you're. You're hurting yourself. You're hurting each other and not causing growth. And so I think that's the thing is because the toxic relationship only gets worse. It doesn't get better. The healthy relationship that you have argument, you have fights, each one of those things builds and makes you better and makes you grow and makes the relationship stronger over time. That's how I would define it.

Nicole [00:05:58]: Yeah, I mean, I just. I like it. But do you feel like people, though, who are in toxic relationships feel like it's resolved and feel like they can move forward, but then they just end up in the same kind of cycle? Because that's the thing is, like, I feel like one person can feel like, okay, we've resolved this. This is good. But then it happens again, and then they're confused because they're like, I thought we worked through this, but the other person's not. I think it's like, resolved it or work through it.

John [00:06:31]: I think maybe it's like you feel like you've duct taped the happy birthday onto the. You've duct taped the thing. Right.

Nicole [00:06:43]: John's saying this because our daughter's birthday party was at a park and it was so windy, we had to duct tape the happy birthday sign on just to keep it.

John [00:06:52]: But you're like, it's holding, right? It doesn't feel like I'm glad. Like, for instance, we talk about this a lot when we have a fight. I'm always at the end of it saying, I'm glad this happened. I feel like this was necessary and it was helpful that this happened. I mean, maybe it didn't have to happen in this way. And some of the things that I regret that I had acted in a certain way. But I'm glad ultimately that this happened because it was a positive step. Whereas I think in toxic relationship that I've been in, I know I didn't really feel. I felt like, I'm glad this is over. I'm glad this is resolved, like, this.

Nicole [00:07:43]: Didn'T need to happen, but I didn't feel like it actually was resolved, though.

John [00:07:46]: Yeah. But I was also like, this didn't need to happen. I didn't feel like I'm glad this happened. Right. Because I felt like this is just. Okay, duct tape here. All right, hopefully this thing holds as opposed to this was growth that happened.

Nicole [00:08:02]: Okay. Adding to what you said then, would you say, though, that a toxic relationship is more likely to happen if both people aren't focused on growing the relationship? Because I feel like it. If you're focused on just getting through the argument that you're having rather than how it will make your relationship better, like what you guys are working through, then maybe that's how they end up in the toxic relationship. They're just viewing it as, we just gotta get through this one fight.

John [00:08:33]: Yeah. I think it has a lot to do with what we talked, the analogy that we use of the dental hygiene of the tooth decay of tartar building up and resentment in the relationship. And then that, like, you're not really.

Nicole [00:08:47]: Cleaning it out, getting the tartar off.

John [00:08:49]: You're just like, I'm kind of tired tonight. I'm not going to brush my teeth. I'm just going to use mouthwash. But do you just use a mouthwash every night? You know, you're like, it's not that, you know, that's not the thing. It's, you know, you're not trying to actually have good dental health.

Nicole [00:09:03]: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to define.

John [00:09:06]: Trying to make your breath not smell.

Nicole [00:09:08]: It's hard to, like, define it because it's like you can think back to when you're in it. Like when you're in it.

John [00:09:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:15]: I feel like you kind of know you're in it.

John [00:09:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:18]: But you're in denial.

John [00:09:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:20]: And that's also a characteristic of the toxic relationship. Right. Because it's like, if you find yourself being like, I don't really like this relationship, but the good times are really good. When they're good and you stay. Because the good times that you're reminiscing on, you're probably in a toxic relationship.

John [00:09:39]: But there's also people that are in toxic relationships that the good times aren't even good.

Nicole [00:09:43]: Right. It's just like. But they've romanticized it.

John [00:09:46]: Or. Or they're just like, they just don't want change.

Nicole [00:09:50]: That's true.

John [00:09:50]: Or they like the abuse to a D. You know, it's like they come. Keep coming back for more because it. Because the abuse is adrenaline, it is excitement, it is something.

Nicole [00:09:59]: Or maybe they think they deserve it or something.

John [00:10:02]: So I think there's some people that are in those toxic. But, but that's why I said, I think the key hallmark to know you're in a toxic relationship is when you get into conflicts. Is it a net negative or net positive? It's A net negative. It's gonna keep on being net negative. Like, it's getting worse and worse.

Nicole [00:10:18]: Yeah.

John [00:10:19]: You know, it's like. I don't know. I'm trying to think of if you got a spider bite on your arm and it's like, you know, two days later, it's getting. It's disappearing.

Nicole [00:10:31]: It's eating the skin.

John [00:10:31]: Oh, no. Well, that's like. It's disappearing. It's healing up. You're like, oh, okay.

Nicole [00:10:38]: Oh, it wasn't poisonous.

John [00:10:39]: Right. But if it's like, two days later and it's, like, expanding the circle, like the flesh is starting to fall off your arm after a week, you're like, okay, it's getting worse. It's not. Yeah, you probably need medical help. You need to, like, you know, it's not. It's not gonna just get better on its own. So that. That's kind of how I feel with it. With the toxic relationship is it's like, it's getting worse. It's gonna keep on getting.

Nicole [00:11:02]: But it's hard for people to leave.

John [00:11:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:04]: Right. Like, for one way or another. Like you said, they're either comfortable, they've just been dealing with this. Or maybe they grew up in, like, a toxic household. You know, their parents had a toxic relationship, and that's all they've seen. And then that's all they've known. And then they go and, you know, they find, like, they're not actively looking for a toxic partner, but they're looking for that pattern. Right. That's familiar to them. Or something's happened, and they feel like they deserve the abuse that they're enduring. Or, you know, sometimes you just get stuck in one, too, where you're like.

John [00:11:40]: Or stuck on the person.

Nicole [00:11:41]: Right. Stuck on the person. Or stuck on, like, the romanticizing you've done of the good times. Or you're like, well, these times are really good. And, like, we're really good friends.

John [00:11:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:51]: 60% of the time, you know? And they're like, that's higher than 50. So I'm staying, you know.

John [00:11:58]: Yeah, well, I mean. Oh, go ahead. Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:00]: Well, no, I was just gonna say that I feel like that's like. Even if you can't see that that's what's happening. That's what you're doing. You're taking the 60 instead of the 50.

John [00:12:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:10]: And kind of forgetting the abuse. And then you get. You get back together with that person or something, and then it happens again, and then you're like, what the heck was I doing? But then somehow you, like, brainwash yourself back. But the good times, you know, it's like, it's. It's this cycle is what keeps you stuck.

John [00:12:27]: Well, I think also if you're. Maybe another thing is if you're expecting the other person to change and then you'll be happy or it'll be good.

Nicole [00:12:38]: You need them to be waiting for that.

John [00:12:40]: Right. But I also had. I told you about this a guy that had called me up, that I gave him some coaching, that asked him, free coaching, but, man, this guy wouldn't listen to anything. But. But his situation was this girl that he had been dating for a long time, his girlfriend, and he had broken up with her, or she had broken up with him, whatever it was, and he just wanted her back no matter what. And when I asked him about the relationship, I was like, are you sure you even want her back? And he was describing their relationship and how it was a very toxic, abusive relationship. They both said horrible things to each other. They both did horrible things to each other. And I was like, are you sure you want that? And he's like, no, I have to have it. I have to have her. There's no other girl. And I was like, I. That like you, but, you know, the way that things are, it's not good. Like, would you. You need to change these things. And he's like, no, no, no. I don't care. I can deal with it. I can deal with it. I don't care. I can deal with the abuse. I can do it. Like, it's fine. I just want her back. And I was like, okay, so this is a validation. The toxic. You know, the toxic relationship. There's this idea that I don't even care how bad it is. Like. Like something in him was like, I just attached to this one person thinking that this is the person for me. Right. And this has to be the person for me. And sometimes, maybe it's through a religious upbringing or just familiarity. Right. Just from, like, when you're comfortable with. With someone for such a long time.

Nicole [00:14:05]: Yeah.

John [00:14:06]: Then you. You just.

Nicole [00:14:07]: You become a person to deal with that for ever.

John [00:14:12]: You shouldn't. But you become so attached that you. You're. You're not thinking logically.

Nicole [00:14:17]: Yeah.

John [00:14:17]: And that's where we see this pattern happen. Right. Because there's definitely people we know where we're seeing, where it's clear to everyone else. You need to get out of this situation.

Nicole [00:14:28]: Yeah.

John [00:14:28]: But they get back into it.

Nicole [00:14:30]: You have to, like, figure out what wakes you up. Right. Like, I feel like the thing that woke me up when I was in that situation, and I've told you about this is I thought about if I had a child with this person, and if the child turned out exactly like them, would I be okay with that? And the answer was no. Like, the honest answer was no.

John [00:14:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:52]: And then I had to tell myself, then what are you doing? Like, why are you with this person? Like, even if the good times are good, if you would have a kid and be upset that it turned out exactly like that person, you don't actually like that person.

John [00:15:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:09]: As a person.

John [00:15:10]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:15:11]: Like, there might be some good times that you had. You might be able to get along as friends every once in a while, but, like, if you couldn't face having another person like that or, like, starting a family.

John [00:15:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:22]: And now you have two people like that in your household, you don't like that person.

John [00:15:27]: Yeah, that's true.

Nicole [00:15:28]: You know what I mean? And so maybe you're too old to have kids or maybe, like, that you don't want to have kids. So that analogy doesn't work for you or whatever. Won't help you realize. But there's got to be some question that you can ask yourself like, that if you feel like you're in a toxic relationship, that will wake you up.

John [00:15:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:47]: Because you are kind of, like, brainwashed or, like.

John [00:15:50]: Yeah. You know, Stockholm syndrome.

Nicole [00:15:53]: Yeah. Like, it is something like that. Like, no matter who you are, no matter how, like, much wisdom or knowledge you think you have. Oh, that will never happen to me.

John [00:16:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:03]: That's not true.

John [00:16:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:05]: So you need to use the wisdom and knowledge that you have to kind of wake yourself up out of this cycle if you feel like you might be in a toxic relationship. Because even on your worst days, I would love to have a kid that's exactly like you.

John [00:16:24]: Yeah. Like, likewise.

Nicole [00:16:26]: So, yeah, it. It. You do have to ask yourself some sort of question that makes you realize that I actually don't like who this person is. You know, because you do get blinded by the good stuff. And you do. And our brains remember things the way we want to remember them. So if you're stuck in a toxic relationship and you're trying so hard to make this work, but the other person's just not. Not growing, not changing, not helping you, not meeting you there.

John [00:16:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:54]: Your brain is gonna be like, oh, well, remember the good times. Like, they. They were really nice this day and, like, made you feel like a million bucks. Yeah. Like, but you can't base your whole life off of, like, the good days. When the bad days are so bad and they're not doing anything about it, and you're the only one trying to work through this relationship. And then, like you said, you end up being like, well, I can fix them, or maybe they'll get better. Like, if I just do this or if I help them do this. Like, you also get stuck in that. Right. Like, when I was in a toxic relationship, too, there were circumstances where I was like, well, this person has nobody. If I leave them.

John [00:17:36]: Oh, yeah, yeah. Who.

Nicole [00:17:37]: Who do they have?

John [00:17:38]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:17:39]: They have no family.

John [00:17:40]: Yep.

Nicole [00:17:41]: Like, I'm their person that they're closest to. I'm responsible. Which also keeps you in that. But then you have to eventually be like, no, I'm not responsible for another adult.

John [00:17:51]: Yeah. Like, yeah, sometimes it's. I'm the only person who can save them. I'm the only person who will love them.

Nicole [00:17:57]: Right.

John [00:17:57]: Like. Like, because I've been in that situation where I thought those exact things. Like, if I leave, they will be ruined. They'll be so devastated. They'll have, like, you know. And, yeah, you can't think that way. But. But, you know, and also, as a coach, like, what you're saying about, I. I can identify it very quickly. When I talk to someone, I talk to a guy and when I ask him about his relationship or his wife or girlfriend, and he. He says, he doesn't say anything about. Because I'm like, well, why are you with this person? And they don't say anything about how much. About good attributes of the. Right. If. If that's the thing is. Or if they're talking about argument or problems that they're having in their relationship and they don't say, yeah, she's really awesome. She. Like, if they don't have all these good things that they say and then say, but I'm dealing with this problem. But if they don't say anything, I'm like, you don't like this person.

Nicole [00:18:52]: Yeah.

John [00:18:52]: You don't like them. Like, why. Why are you even trying to fix this thing? You don't even like them.

Nicole [00:18:56]: Right.

John [00:18:57]: You know, it's different when you're married. You know, obviously you need to work through the issues, but if you're dating someone, you don't like them.

Nicole [00:19:02]: Right. What are you doing?

John [00:19:03]: What are you doing? Yeah, get out of there. There's no need to be in a relationship with a person you don't like, you know?

Nicole [00:19:10]: Yeah. And even if you feel the guilt or the pressure, like we just talked about, like, oh, I'm the only person that can help them. Like if you feel like you've put in effort into the relationship and they're not really giving anything back and it's just. You're going in this circle.

John [00:19:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:26]: You have to really think about do you want to be in the circle for the rest of your life? And like you said, the circle is going to get worse and worse. It's not going to get better because nothing's really being resolved like you think it is. And maybe on your end you feel like it is. But honestly, even if you're healing and growing and resolving things, the second that you have the same exact argument over and over, all your like, like self control is out the window. Like all your healing that you're like.

John [00:20:00]: Ripping those stitches out.

Nicole [00:20:02]: Yeah. It's. You're back to square one because now you're pissed off. You're still having to deal with the same thing over and over again and nothing's actually getting fixed.

John [00:20:10]: But sometimes I think it's also just an issue of two people at the wrong times in their life where they're feeding off of their negative cycles. Right.

Nicole [00:20:19]: Oh, so you believe in the wrong timing?

John [00:20:23]: Well, I mean, I think that it's not necessarily like quote, the wrong timing, but it's. You have. I believe that people can be compatible, that they can get along in relationships regardless of who they are. I don't think there's like. I think that some people are better suited for each other and I do think they're soulmates. But I do think that any two people can be in a loving relationship. I think it can be done right. But I do think that there are situations where you got a person and the things that are wrong with them perfectly mesh with the things that are wrong with this other person. And those gears just freaking grind. Exactly.

Nicole [00:21:02]: It creates that perfect. Sometimes they flow in unison and it feels good. But most of the time they're. They're getting all.

John [00:21:10]: Exactly mixed up. Yeah. Where they're pushing each other's buttons.

Nicole [00:21:13]: Yeah.

John [00:21:14]: And neither one of them are in enough of a growth point in their life, of healing point in their life for them to turn that thing around. So it's just gaining more and more momentum. It's a flywheel that's just spinning. And I think that is. That. I think that is a. Could be a timing type of thing. You know what I mean? But I think obviously like healed people that are working on healing themselves and growing, they're not necessarily going to get into that situation, which is also something maybe that to take account of is that if you're in a toxic relationship, you're probably toxic to some degree. I'm not saying the other person might not be more toxic, but if you're in the toxic relationship, there's something.

Nicole [00:21:54]: Yeah, no, you're right.

John [00:21:55]: Cause you're grinding the gear too.

Nicole [00:21:57]: Right. There's something that you haven't healed. Because like you said, you probably wouldn't even be in that situation if you were really healed the way that you think that you are.

John [00:22:07]: Right. Because even when I look back at my own self and my own toxic relationship, like, if I'm really honest, some toxicity that was going on. Because for one, if you're staying there, if you're dealing with the kind of stuff, there's something going on. If it's triggering you still and you're getting into these big fights and if you can scream and yell at someone, then, yeah, there's some stuff. And again, I think that you can still be in a relationship and you can mess up and you can yell at each other. That can happen. However, at the end of the day, that's why I use that. Like, are you. Is it progressing things forward in a positive direction?

Nicole [00:22:45]: Yeah.

John [00:22:45]: Or is it not? Because if it's just tearing down and destroying each other, then that's not. That's not good. It's not going to improve.

Nicole [00:22:54]: Yeah.

John [00:22:55]: And when you recognize that pattern of things are not improving, they're devolving. That's where you need to get out of there.

Nicole [00:23:06]: But there's a part of me too, that is like. Is. Yes. I agree with you that if you're in a toxic relationship, that there's something that you're also like. You're also to blame in that as well in some ways. But I'm also wondering if you are more of like a growth mindset person and you're with a fixed mindset person.

John [00:23:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:30]: Is that just going to create what feels like a toxic cycle? Because one person's trying to move the relationship forward and it can't. With that fixed mindset like we've talked about before, I feel like as a man, if the man has the growth mindset, he might be able to influence the woman. But if it's a woman with a growth mindset, I don't think there's much that a woman can do to influence a man into a growth mindset. And, you know, I feel like that kind of creates some of the toxic cycle. Because if you think about it, if one person's trying to grow.

John [00:24:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:11]: Then. And they can't because the other person's set on. They're like, I'm not changing. This is who I am. You're gonna keep going around in that cycle. Right, Right. And obviously if you have two fixed mindset people, you're just constantly on the Ferris wheel of toxic cycle because nobody's budging. Right. And then it just gets worse and worse. But because I'm wondering, if it was two growth mindset people, it wouldn't be toxic like you would.

John [00:24:39]: That's what I'm saying.

Nicole [00:24:39]: Working.

John [00:24:39]: You could figure it out no matter what.

Nicole [00:24:42]: Yeah. So I'm wondering if it's the balance of a growth mindset person with a fixed mindset or two fixed mindset people that actually make the toxic relationship dynamic.

John [00:24:53]: Yeah. I think there's a couple things. I think one is that you're not wholly growth or fixed mindset. It's contextual. In different situations, certain people think that they can grow at certain things, but they can't at other things. So I think there's an element of that. I think also though, the thing is, you're right that you can be in a situation where. Where mostly the problem is not you. Right. But there, there's a reason why you're like, it got to that point that is you. Because the relationship didn't. It didn't. The person didn't just become toxic. They were toxic from the beginning. There were issues from. And you stayed. Look, if you got married to the person, there was something wrong with you. Right. It's not just them. Because you stayed in that situation and you got it to the. If it's escalated to the point where. Know I tell guys all the time that I'm coaching. I'm like, if a woman's yelling, screaming in your face, calling you names, she didn't just start that from day date one. If she did, you're crazy if you dated her for the second date. But somehow the disrespect started to build and grow to. It got to the point where she, you know, kicked you in the nuts or whatever it was.

Nicole [00:26:00]: Right. Okay.

John [00:26:02]: Right. Like, so you messed up somewhere along this line by not cutting bait. Right.

Nicole [00:26:09]: Or having the boundaries and.

John [00:26:10]: Yeah, but I also think there's also an element of this, which is that it's a self reflection. Is that today everyone likes to say that their. Their partner is toxic, that the other person's toxic and they're not. Everyone's a narcissist.

Nicole [00:26:25]: Well, that's why I'm trying to. Like, I don't even really like the word toxic, because it does get mislabeled a lot. But there is, like, some cycle.

John [00:26:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:38]: That people call toxic relationships that we want to try to discuss. But I get the. Using the word toxic was a little bit difficult because it's thrown around so much today that I'm not talking about, like, minuscule things that people are labeling as toxic. But, yeah, it is that. And like narcissists and, you know, people like to blame all the terms.

John [00:27:02]: They like to blame.

Nicole [00:27:03]: Yeah.

John [00:27:04]: When it's. But I think the thing is, from an outside perspective, you can see it, because we know people who have toxic relationships that we can see it from the outside, and it's like, it doesn't even matter which one of them is the problem or if it's probably both. But it's not good. It's not a good relationship, and it's not becoming better. It's given enough time. And you're watching it from the outside, and you're like, this is not evolving. This is devolving. This is not going somewhere. It's like if someone's like, oh, yeah, I'm starting a business, and it's like you're watching them and they're, like, not really doing much with the business, and like, two years go by and three years go by and they're just racking up credit card debt and they're not making any money, and you're like, okay, this business is not a business. It's not working. Right. You can see that. It's the same thing with the relationship. It's. It's like you give it a little bit of time. I mean, people aren't perfect, but you're watching people that are in a relationship, and you're seeing it get worse and worse and not better.

Nicole [00:28:05]: Here's the thing, though. Yes. But me having been in one, you having been in one, and knowing people have been in one.

John [00:28:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:15]: Does someone telling you they know you're in one help you get out of it? Not usually, no.

John [00:28:21]: They gotta, like, kidnap you and throw you in the back of the van and like, well, that's what I'm.

Nicole [00:28:26]: Have an intervention. Like, yes. When you're from the outside, you can see it. And even if it's people that you care about, and you're like, hey, this relationship's not good for you. Like, I get that maybe it's hard for you to see from the inside, but, like, this is what we've been noticing. Sounds great, but rarely do people actually leave that relationship because of that. And so that's the hard part, right? Is like, how do you wake up and break the cycle and finally stop being in that toxic dynamic? It has to be something that comes from, that makes sense, that wakes you up from the inside. Right? Like the Matrix, like the pill that wakes you up and you realize what's actually happening. Cause that's what has to happen. I don't know if you feel that way, but I feel like that is what. Like, I had the epiphany. I was like, what am I doing? You know? Like, it has to be something like that. And I feel like even my friends would be like, why are you still hanging out with this person? Like, that didn't even register in my mind. You know what I mean? So that's why.

John [00:29:29]: Well, I think it's like, if you keep on breaking up and getting back together, because we did an episode on this. But that, I mean, that's the biggest indicator is, like, if you break up, you're done. That's it. Right. There's some exceptions, some circumstances that obviously, like, we broke up, but in general. But it wasn't because our relationship was bad.

Nicole [00:29:47]: That's true.

John [00:29:47]: It was because you broke up because.

Nicole [00:29:49]: The relationship's bad, and you just can't deal with it anymore.

John [00:29:52]: If you got into a fight enough that you broke up on that fight, that's done. It's done. See, that. That's how, you know, pretty much. I'm not saying that there's not ever exceptions or. Or whatever, but I'm saying in general. But if it's a pattern, for sure, if you've broken up, like two or three times, you definitely are in a toxic relationship. You definitely need to get out.

Nicole [00:30:12]: Yeah, that's true.

John [00:30:13]: And the thing I think that. That people make the mistakes is that they break up. They recognize. Because most people, when they do break up and they're in a toxic relationship, they recognize it at that point. In fact, they're like, I hate this person. Which is also a pretty big sign, right?

Nicole [00:30:28]: Yeah.

John [00:30:28]: But then they don't take immediate action to cut them out of their life, and they let enough time go by, and then they.

Nicole [00:30:36]: To the chaos, they want it back.

John [00:30:38]: It's got to be no contact. It's got to be no contact. Not no contact, so that they'll come back to you. No contact. Because I've recognized. This is just like, look, you know, if I was addicted to meth or something like that, right? And I. And I recognized and I had an intervention, everyone's like, okay, you can't take meth anymore, you know, John, your teeth are falling out, whatever. And then I was like, okay, well, you're right. So I'm going to stop for a while and just do a little bit. I'm be back on the street, you know, in a ditch somewhere. Right? Because you. That's, that's what they're doing is it's a drug because the toxicity is a drug and they get addicted to the drug. And so they don't just quit it cold turkey. They're like, okay, I'll just kind of chaos, I'll still talk to them or whatever it is. And then you're sucked back in because you cannot, you have to treat it like a drug addiction where you went to rehab. And it's like, no, you can't even touch the stuff. You can't think about the stuff. You got to block it on your social media. You cannot be around the stuff because you will get sucked backed into it. That, that's how it is. You know how bad it is for you, you know how much it destroyed your life. But it doesn't matter because you can't resist it. And you have to realize that you can't resist it because it's a psychological dependency. Just like a drug could be a physical dependency, you have a psychological dependency to a person that's not good for you.

Nicole [00:32:03]: That's true.

John [00:32:04]: Yeah. Yeah, there you go.

Nicole [00:32:08]: So what if you are in a toxic relationship though, and you surprisingly haven't had like an argument where you break up? Like, what if someone watching this realizes, hey, I think I'm in that sort of relationship. Should they just go ahead and break up with them right now? It might be harder for them to realize that that's what's going on.

John [00:32:31]: I don't know any toxic relationship where they haven't broken up.

Nicole [00:32:37]: Okay.

John [00:32:38]: I mean, maybe I'm wrong. I mean, it's like, you know, But.

Nicole [00:32:43]: I mean, I guess that's true.

John [00:32:44]: It probably is.

Nicole [00:32:44]: But what if you're in a toxic marriage, can't just break up.

John [00:32:47]: Yeah. I mean, the toxic marriage, I think honestly, you, you, you gotta work through it because you made a commitment. Right. I mean, I think there's a degree to an extreme where there's like physical abuse, where there's cheating, where there's like extreme emotional abuse over a long duration of time. That's not, you know, but, but I think if you're committed to the point of like, don't get married, don't get married. Okay. Unless you're absolutely sure and willing to take all the risks and sign the waiver. Right. That's like you're going against medical supervision. We told you not to walk out of here. You're walking out of here. It's on you. Right. That's the. That's the thing. Right? So. So I think if you're in the marriage, you can't be like, oh, they're toxic, or this is a toxic relationship, so I have to get out. No, no, you got to. Really, really. And we've talked about this before in other episodes, really put in the work to fix that thing because it's not just you anymore.

Nicole [00:33:41]: But what if you do now?

John [00:33:42]: It's your.

Nicole [00:33:42]: It doesn't change.

John [00:33:44]: Well, then. Then, yeah, then. Then you might have to.

Nicole [00:33:47]: You know, I mean, I think you're right. I think, you know, don't rush into it, especially if you're having, like, some emotional turmoil or problems in your relationship. Definitely don't rush into marriage thinking that's going to fix your problems. So many people have said it, but I'm gonna say it again, is marriage and children will not fix your relationship problems ever. Yeah, they will not.

John [00:34:13]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:14]: They will only make them more horrible, usually.

John [00:34:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:20]: So definitely think long and hard about the relationship you're in before you get married and before you have kids. But obviously, if you do it before you get married, you should be fine having kids with the person that you picked. But. Yeah, I guess you're right. I guess people do break up usually in the toxic relationship because it does normally get to a point where it just, like, explodes and.

John [00:34:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:42]: Because it keeps them really bad. And then they get back together and then they act like nothing ever happened. And then it all happens again but bigger this time, usually.

John [00:34:52]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. Yeah, but I think that's. That's. It's usually that identifiable, But. But in the marriage, it's a different thing. You gotta. You gotta try really hard to, like, work on and make that. Because again, I think that two people, any two people can make a relationship work.

Nicole [00:35:12]: Yeah.

John [00:35:12]: It just takes a lot of work. But I've never seen a person who's in a relationship where they are. They've done enough growth and work on themselves where they're doing pretty much everything. Right. I'm not saying perfect, but pretty damn close to doing all the things that they're supposed to be doing. And then. And then the partner's not responding at all.

Nicole [00:35:34]: Yeah. I mean, I would dare to say, though, that one of the biggest problems with maybe the person that's not toxic is That I would dare to say that majority of the time they want to fix the other person, and that's why they're there, and that's why they stay there. They're like, I can fix them. But actually that's a toxic attribute.

John [00:36:00]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:36:01]: That's your toxicity.

John [00:36:02]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:36:03]: To think that you can fix somebody. And even if you're coming from a good place, you're like, I can help them be better, handle these things properly, or not be so angry all the time. Like, even if it's coming from a place of, like, good intentions.

John [00:36:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:17]: There is something wrong with staying with somebody just to fix them.

John [00:36:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:23]: And to, like, create them into the person that you want to create them into.

John [00:36:28]: And they might be the reason why they're toxic or part of it because they're resisting against. Well, but also, is it loving to want to fix someone? Is it unconditional love to be like, essentially, I will love you once I fix you. I will love you once you behave the certain way? That's not.

Nicole [00:36:48]: Well, I don't think anybody outright says that people can tell that that is what someone's doing.

John [00:36:53]: They're indicating that. And so that person doesn't feel like you're not really showing up in the relationship and loving the other person if you're not loving them unconditionally for who they are and how they are in this moment. And that rejection is going to produce a lot of toxic behavior from someone. So you might think, oh, well, they're the problem, but you're not very loving. And so it kind of comes back to you almost all the time. And again, I'm not saying that there's not situations where someone you're married to or you're in a relationship with a total psychopath who is violent, who is completely abusive for no reason. But most people have some kind of reason. Most people don't handle adversity or handle conflict well or handle rejection or being unloved very well, but they usually have some kind of reason. And so, like I said, I just never see a person that is. I mean, even if you go back to your own relationship or if I go back to mine, toxic relationship. I can't honestly say that I was showing up at 100%. Like, I learned a lot of things between then I learned, um. And, you know, not to say that that that gives another person a total excuse, but, you know, if you're trying to fix someone in the relationship, that's. That's a toxic trait.

Nicole [00:38:13]: That's true.

John [00:38:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:14]: Yeah, it is. And I think, too, also people get dazzled by the potential, which ties into, like, wanting to fix them. It's like, you can see their potential, which I feel like people view the good times as their potential. They're like, oh, they have the potential where we can have fun and just like, you know, a good relationship. Like, it's really good when it's good.

John [00:38:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:37]: So I see the potential. So if I can just help them with the bad stuff, you know, like, and keep the good, then we could just be good. And I think that.

John [00:38:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:48]: You know, that is also why people hold on to the good times and they just view the good times.

John [00:38:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:38:55]: Because they're like, oh, well, these exist. So that means this personal person's capable of this.

John [00:39:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:01]: How do I get this person to act more like this? You know, and they're not outright saying that, but it's essentially the same thing.

John [00:39:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:09]: But, you know, it's definitely, like you mentioned a psychological addiction. Like, you become addicted to the highs and the lows. And people might not think that they can get addicted to the lows or, like, the drama.

John [00:39:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:22]: But they do.

John [00:39:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:25]: And that's why they tolerate it and accept it. Because the thing is that most of the time, like, if you get to a point of marriage, your partner did not change that much, and they're not going to change that much.

John [00:39:37]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:38]: So either you were ignoring the parts that you didn't like for a while, and now you just can't ignore them because you're married and you're going to be with them for the rest of your life, or some other thing happened, but they're not gonna change drastically overnight unless they have a head injury or something.

John [00:39:58]: Well, and it kind of goes both ways on kind of what you were saying, because we keep on talking about the who you are on your worst day is who you actually are. Who they are on their worst day is who they actually are. And so when they're showing you. When someone. You get in a fight with someone and they're really nasty, like, really nasty, that's who they actually are. I'm not saying that they can't grow and improve from that. And I'm not saying that if someone is really nasty one time in a fight, that. That you should be like, oh, they're horrible. They're toxic. But you should be, like, taking note and saying, okay, that's the low. That's where they can be.

Nicole [00:40:36]: Right.

John [00:40:36]: And that's, like, where they actually are in terms of, like, the deepest part of them. Like, Can I still love that and work with that? Like, you know, is it. Is, are they going to improve and grow from there or is that like, did they just show me? And I need to believe it because sometimes it's like if someone shows you who they are, you need to believe it and see that that's what it is.

Nicole [00:40:59]: Yeah. I think too, telling yourself, like, if the person I'm with right now never changes, would I be okay with that? I guess maybe that's a question that everybody can ask rather than the kids. Is that because even when I met you and we had gotten further into our relationship and dating and I was like, you know, if John just stayed this way forever.

John [00:41:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:19]: Would I be okay with that? And I was.

John [00:41:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:22]: And I think that, let's say, like you yelled at me and called me names, I would have to answer that as no, Like, I'm not. And so either I would have needed to like stay in the relationship to see how that went. Like, if it was something that you were working on yourself, like not me forcing you to, like, I could bring it up, but to see that you were actually working on it and taking initiative or if it just continued or potentially got worse, you know, and then made a decision. But I think that's something that people can and should, especially before you get married. Ask yourself.

John [00:42:03]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:42:04]: If this person never changed and stayed exactly how they are right now or exactly how they are on their worst day.

John [00:42:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:42:11]: Would I be okay with that?

John [00:42:13]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:14]: Because the reality is in a healthy relationship, you would be with the person.

John [00:42:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:21]: Even on their worst day and you've seen them there and you know that you can handle it and support them and you know, you know who they are as a person. Even if they're showing up that way.

John [00:42:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:33]: You know who they are deep inside. So that might be a more all around question that people can ask themselves if they are confused if they're in a toxic relationship or not. Because the thing is, like, sometimes you don't even know you're in one until you get to that point where you're about to break up. And then you're like. And now hopefully people watching this will be like, maybe I am in a toxic relationship. You know, or maybe there's toxic things that I need to work on. Or maybe I was just with them because I was hoping they would change and. Or I was hoping they would be the person that I wanted them to be and I didn't accept them for who they actually were.

John [00:43:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:15]: You know, so you can learn a lot from the toxic relationships. And also something to learn from toxic relationships is boundaries.

John [00:43:23]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:24]: Because a lot of relationships are toxic because there are no boundaries. You can just do whatever, right? Say whatever.

John [00:43:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:31]: And then you guys sweep it under the rug. And then now your mountain of crap under the rug is piling up and it's gonna explode at some point.

John [00:43:41]: Yeah. There's gotta be some things that are like. I'm glad you brought that up. Is like, this doesn't happen. This isn't. And that's what. And we have, like, the rules for the relationship that we created. If you. I think it's the second episode of the podcast, and those are. Those are boundaries for, you know, sharing each other's locations and stuff like that. And those are important to set those things in place. But also boundaries. And, like, yeah, we don't call each other names. We don't. Like, I'm not saying that that. That doesn't ever, you know, someone doesn't make a mistake. But it's like, it has to be like, no, this is the standard. Right? And it's like. And it's certainly. We don't hit each other. Like, that's, you know. But that has to be a stand. There has to be consequences for that. It doesn't mean that necessarily that you're completely done, but it needs. It might mean there needs to be a severe consequence, like, if this boundary is crossed. If, like, you, like, you know, call me the F word or whatever it is or whatever. If you hit me physically, then we're gonna, like, there's gonna be a week period of time where there's gonna be a separation for a week or there's gonna be some kind of thing that makes this serious. Because a boundary without a consequence is not really a boundary at all. So there has to be some kind of action that follows through, that enforces the boundaries so that people take it seriously. Cause if you just say, oh, I don't tolerate this, but then you do tolerate this, then what does that mean? And you always have the nuclear option. You can't be like, if you do this, I'm breaking up with you. Yeah, that. That doesn't help either. Because then you have, you know, you're not actually going to. Yeah, sure. If someone messes up, then it's over. And maybe that's how you want it to be, but it should be some kind of thing where there's a consequence that that is. Is not going to completely destroy the relationship either.

Nicole [00:45:27]: Makes sense.

John [00:45:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:29]: Yeah. But I feel like boundaries. Lack of boundaries is also very prevalent in toxic relationships.

John [00:45:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:36]: Because that's why the behavior can continue to happen over and over again because there is no consequence. Like you said, like, you guys are just wilding out. You're just. It's like the wild, wild west out there. You're just hurling insults at each other and then you, like, sweep it under the rug and then you guys act fine again. And then now you know, something sets it off and back in the wild, wild west again. And so boundaries from the beginning is good and hopefully will keep people out of those toxic patterns. But like you said, like, there does. You do have to uphold your boundaries. Like, if you're like, you, like, you can't talk to me that way. Like, we can continue the conversation when you can speak, you know, to me like normal, you have to actually do follow through with that and you know all of those things. And that could. That's probably the only way that your relationship can get out of the toxic.

John [00:46:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:34]: Mentality is having the boundaries and upholding them. And both people should have the boundaries because like you said, there are issues on both sides if you're in a toxic relationship. Like, there are things that both people need to work on.

John [00:46:47]: And that's a good point because that actually is a great point, is because if you set boundaries, if you're in a toxic relationship and you're like, you're hearing the podcast and you're like, yeah, but I don't. I'm not going to get out. This is the only person for. Okay, fine, but set boundaries and enforce the boundaries, and then the relationship will take care of itself one way or the other.

Nicole [00:47:05]: Right.

John [00:47:06]: Because if you set the boundaries and they get violated and you follow through with the consequence, you're going to break up at some point. Like, it will take you to that. That end game. But if they do listen to the boundaries, then you're fixing their relationship. Because the problem of not having the boundaries is it allows the destructive behavior to continue, which further devolves the relationship.

Nicole [00:47:34]: Detoxify the relationship by having boundaries.

John [00:47:40]: It's active charcoal for your relationship.

Nicole [00:47:42]: Yeah, but I mean, that's the only thing I can think of that will is what toxic relationships lack, which is the boundaries. And that, like you said, could help the relationship is having boundaries. So we talked about a problem. We talked about how to fix the problem. Hopefully, like you said, either way, it's either going to fix your relationship or it's going to end the relationship. And yeah, that's what it'll have to be.

John [00:48:08]: All right, well, I think that's pretty much it about the toxic relationship. Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:15]: If you're else you want to add to it.

John [00:48:18]: I don't. I don't know. Just stop it.

Nicole [00:48:20]: Just don't get addicted.

John [00:48:23]: Yeah, yeah. Or recognize, you know, just pay attention. Recognize it and then.

Nicole [00:48:27]: Yeah. Be self aware.

John [00:48:29]: Realize that. I think. I think just realizing it's an addiction and that you can't control an addiction, you have to stop an addiction cold turkey. Right. It cannot. You cannot be exposed to it.

Nicole [00:48:40]: Right.

John [00:48:40]: Because you cannot trust yourself. That's the thing. If you realize that. I think that that's the thing because I think a lot of people do realize that they're in toxic relations, they're in relationships they don't want to be in, but they somehow get sucked back into it.

Nicole [00:48:51]: Yeah.

John [00:48:52]: Because that was definitely me. I definitely got somehow sucked back in Right. Through Hope or whatever it was. And it's like, no. If you just recognize the truth and realize that. Okay. That the boundary needs to be set.

Nicole [00:49:05]: You'Re like, but this time it'll be different. But this time it'll be different. But this time it would be different.

John [00:49:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:11]: If you feel like you are realizing, you just keep making excuses to stay, but nothing is changing. Put the boundaries. See what happens. Because you're probably in a toxic relationship.

John [00:49:26]: Yeah. All right, well, that's it. If you guys check out our new website, if you want to see all the show notes and links, it's on better than perfectpod.com.

Nicole [00:49:40]: John'S been working really hard on it.

John [00:49:41]: That's right. My ChatGPT friend has.

Nicole [00:49:44]: He's been enjoying it, though. He was like, I didn't want to do it. It was so hard. I'm like, that is not true.

John [00:49:51]: I actually wrote a program with ChatGPT Python scripts that take all of our old episodes from YouTube and grab all of the thumbnails and the transcript files and then figure out the Spotify ID and then take all of that information and then create. Send all that information to ChatGPT to like figure out the summary and the excerpts and the show notes and the links and then put it all into an HTML file and then upload it automatically to Ghost Blog server. And then, yeah, then it's all there. So there you go geeking out the nerd language. All right, we'll see you guys next week.

Nicole [00:50:35]: Through every fault we find way.