John: A woman should be entering a man's world ultimately in the relationship, not him entering her world, right? It's like she should be becoming a part of his life, and that's what it is traditionally anyway, right? In terms of the father gives away the daughter, you know, she becomes part of the man's life. Like, he, she becomes his responsibility, you know, instead of it's like, I think a lot of couples don't think of it that way, a lot of guys don't think of it that way because if I think of it of you entering my life, through our flaws, we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault, we find our way. Aloha, welcome to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where each week we show you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole: That's right, and this week, uh, let's see. Can you guess where we are by the intro? We took our—it's our first anniversary, uh, and we are in Kawaii, Hawaii. Kawaii, my first time on this island, your first time on this island.

John: Yeah, although I went to high school in Hawaii, all four years of high school on Oahu.

Nicole: That's right, and you tried to live on Maui.

John: Yeah, I lived on Maui for two months. So, he's very into the Hawaiian—

Nicole: Which I don't blame him because we don't want to leave. I mean, yeah, it's gorgeous here. I'm sure we can put in some footage maybe of what we've seen in this video, but it's a whole different feel. It's like a different vibe. Like, people sometimes compare Hawaii to like the Caribbean, and they're like, you know, it's just, but it's different 'cause Hawaii has a totally different culture, vibe, Aloha spirit, I guess you could call it. It's like, yeah, it's not just like an island or just like a tropical destination. It's a, yeah, a way of life. Like, yeah, I really like how they're very nature-focused, especially on this island. It's very natury, just in general, compared to the other ones. I mean, Maui is natury too, but yeah, like, I like that they're very into the earth and the nature, and they appreciate all the things, you know, the water, the reefs, the plants.

John: Exactly, the food, you know, and then there's like the food here is so different 'cause it's like you have like weird like Hawaiian, we've been trying to find plate lunch, junk food, which is like Hawaiian food, yeah, and it's been so hard. It's like, it's weird. It's like if you haven't had Hawaiian food, it's not like really Hawaiian authentic. It's more Hawaii is like a mix of Portuguese, Japanese, Chinese, American, Hawaiian food, and so it's like, you know, plate lunch is like a scoop of mac salad, scoop of white rice, sticky rice, and then like either kalbi beef or katsu chicken or lomi lomi salmon or yeah, or fish or shrimp or like Koa pork. It's like all these different, spam, spam is a big thing, spam musubi, saimin, like there's all kinds of stuff that's just like Hawaiian. Yeah, we've had a hard time finding like a lot of plate lunch. I think we've tried a few times. I think we've given up on that for here, but yeah, but we figured we'd talk about—well, and then also, I guess the other thing that might be confusing is that it's our anniversary, yeah, but if you don't follow us on social media, you don't, you don't—

Nicole: Know the complicated because we got married, well, we had our wedding, like our ceremony and everything in October, right, but we got legally married in November of the previous year.

John: You're going—I wasn't going to confuse them that much, but our anniversary is March 7th.

Nicole: Yeah, we picked it because we decided we want to pick our own date for anniversary, so that's what we did. And well, 37 is our number.

John: Yeah, so, you know, that's why we picked it. We wanted it to be a special day, which I feel like, yeah, a lot of people do pick their anniversary date for like a special reason.

Nicole: So, yeah, and it was like, you, we got to actually celebrate our zeroeth anniversary, which most people don't get to do.

John: So, that's—well, it's told, John, most people celebrate their zeroeth anniversary by having the wedding.

Nicole: Yeah, so, but last year we went to Palm Springs for like a long weekend and celebrated, but now we're in Kawaii. It's been beautiful. I mean, we haven't had as much sun as we would like, but it's still been really nice.

John: Yeah, definitely. And we're staying at this super nice place. It's gorgeous. I don't want to leave. I just want to live right here, and we got it all for points.

Nicole: We did, the this point thing, our credit card mile point that we got this, you know, it's like $2,300 a night. We got it for free. It's literally so amazing with like these huge doors that open up so you can have like the outdoor-indoor living situation.

John: Yeah, but yeah, you might see us on Kawaii maybe permanently one of these days. We've liked it a lot. You said it's like your favorite island.

Nicole: I think so. It's so laid back, just chill, and like just so much nature, like undisturbed.

John: Like Maui has a lot of nature, but it's, I feel like so much more of it's manufactured.

Nicole: You think so, like the beaches and stuff? They're not as many natural beaches. I think this is more natural, the freaking mountains with the waterfalls here. Like, there were waterfalls in Maui when you're driving along the road, but there's like this huge mountain, these huge mountains in the North Shore that we saw yesterday. I mean, it was like rainy most of the day, but the, you could see the waterfall like all the way down. It was crazy.

John: Yeah, yeah, it's nice. It's just too bad we have to leave.

Nicole: I know, but visit, yeah, be respectful.

John: Yeah, so I guess this week is my week, right?

Nicole: I think so.

John: And so, yeah, it is my week. So, the episode, but uh, I thought, I almost thought for a second maybe we should just talk about us, as a, you know, our, you know, just our relationship and stuff, and our history, but maybe, but I know we could talk some about that. We already did kind of with the anniversary, but I was thinking to talk about like when should you live together, travel together, like all of these kind of the things about milestone sort of things, yeah, and also just how to test a relationship in various ways of life because like even in our relationship, right, when we first met—

Nicole: Yeah, I was traveling, speaking at a conference.

John: And so, I mean, our first date was, it was kind of a normal first date, but then our second date was playing mini golf at Universal Studios, and our third date was spending Universal Studios in Florida, and then, and then when we, and then the next time we saw each other, we got the honeymoon—

Nicole: Site in, you got the honeymoon site in Cancun for 5 days, you know, and so it was a resort, you know, so it was like real life didn't—

John: Yeah, it didn't feel like reality.

Nicole: Yeah, that's why I was like, no, you have to come back, and we have to just like go on normal dates.

John: To see if we actually like each other and we're not living in this fantasy thing, but I feel like a lot of people don't do what we do, you know? They go on normal dates first. They don't have some guy that comes into town and goes because some people, a lot of people, don't live where like Disney is, like a huge theme or in the same city, so they could just date right, like normal. So it's like, you know, most people are doing it the normal way, but we did it the not normal way. But at least we knew that, you know, it's like we need to see if we're living in a fantasy world or if we could actually deal with each other in everyday life.

Nicole: Yeah, so it was good that you came and like we just had a normal week before we went even more crazy. Well, it's interesting too because I was thinking about that, you know, because I think it is important to have the different contexts that you test a relationship in, to see how people behave differently around their friends as well, like around their family, when they're on vacation versus when they're stressed out at work and like the grind of the day. But what was interesting about our relationship too is that we sort of start our relationship the opposite. Living well, living like a married couple almost right because, yeah, the first three dates, that was different. That was not you, that was, it was still extravagant because I didn't live in the city and it was still, but then immediately after that, like I guess was what, four months later, the next time we saw each other, we were living together, you know? I mean we stayed together 24 hours, right, for four or five days, I think it four or five, four, yeah, four or five days. So we hardly knew each other, and then we were in close proximity for 5 days straight, right, like cohabitating. And then even after that, when I came to visit in Tampa, you stayed in my apartment.

John: I stayed, yeah. I was, so we lived together. That's, and then as soon as I moved to Tampa, we immediately lived together too. So, but the only, I think the only reason why we were able to immediately jump to moving in together right away when I moved to Tampa was because we had already spent four or five days together in Mexico, and then we spent almost a week together at your place in a more normal life situation, right. And so, you know, we had seen the different side. There wasn't going to be any major surprise, you know. We got along. We were able to, you know, it's funny because I tell John that he like manifested us getting married because he got, well, he got the honeymoon suite. That's, then when I got there, everyone was calling me Mrs. Jones, and I'm like, no. And they're like, what, they're probably like, why are you guys in the honeymoon suite then? But yeah, he manifested us being here. All my friends are like, why are you, like, why would you get the honeymoon suite? What are you doing? Like, if you take this girl to Mexico, you're going to get laid. Like, you don't need to get a honeymoon suite. And I was like, I want the honey. I want, like, this. It just felt special to me from the very beginning. Like, that's why, and it was like, and I wanted to, I mean, I wanted to have this, like, this is the life that I wanted to have, and now I do have it. But I want to, I say too that John was respectful, even though he's sitting here saying, talking in his dude language of like, you're going to get laid, bro. Like, he was respectful because that's the way I was living at the time, right. I mean, I was living a very different life, you know what I mean? So, like, that's how I thought back then. Like, that was, yeah, but you didn't, in that instance, you got the honeymoon suite.

Nicole: Yeah, no, that's, it was different. It was like, it was literally special. Like, I was just, I mean, because even in Orlando when we first had met, I sent you that video. That, I need to add that in. Yeah, I was like, you know, I'm just, I'm just happy to know someone like you exist, and it was true because in my mind, it was like, even though I was living that kind of lifestyle, I wanted what we have, and I didn't think it was possible for me. Like, just knowing that a person like you exists in the world, I think, to some degree, like, it makes me happy inside, just knowing you're out there, you know. Obviously, there's complicated situations. We won't get into the depth. We did the episode on the cheating thing, but, you know, before, but, yeah, I mean, I was in a relationship, and it was, there was a lot of complexity to that, but, and situationships.

John: Yeah, and situationships. Just, it was a mess. It was like, that's why I didn't think it was possible for us to have what we have, for me to have any kind of, and this is why you don't get yourself in such a mess, guys, because if you end up doing that, what if you see the love of your life, and then you're in a situation. I mean, it might work out like you and I, but yeah, but it is, don't be deceptive and get yourself in a situation. A lot of things have to go, but I do think that it's important that, I mean, a lot of people, I think, they date for a long time, and they're living separate lives, which, I mean, yeah, you're living in different places, you're going to, but even then, their lives are too separate, in the sense that, yeah, they don't know where each other is. This always amazes me, right, when I'm talking to guys, and like, girl cheats on them, or, or whatever, he suspects something, and I'm like, how do you not know where each other are at 24 hours a day? How do you not have your locations on, or even if you don't have your locations on, how are you not telling each other? Like, if I'm dating someone, I know where they're at, you know. If I don't know where they're at, that's a problem. But people are kind of living that separate, but then they get together, maybe they first move in or whatever, and they haven't really tested the waters. They haven't gone on a major trip where they spent 24 hours together for several days, and then it breaks. I mean, you see it every time on Love is Blind, right? As soon as they get together, especially, well, usually when they're in the vacation, it's usually like, if it's not going good there, that's a real problem. But as soon as they get back to the real world, that's when the shit falls apart, right? It's like, because then it's like, oh, you know, when they're living their regular life.

Nicole: Right, right. Yeah, when they're on their honeymoon, it's, they're like, oh, we like each other, and then they get back, and it's crazy. But I mean, yeah, I agree with all that. I think, you know, I've always been somebody that is very like, live with a person before you get married, before you get engaged. Like, it's very important. I mean, I understand the religious aspect is what a lot of people who don't do it.

John: It's normally the reason, but you know you're going to do what you're going to do religiously. I'm not going to tell you how to live, but if that's not a situation for you, live with somebody before you get engaged and married. It's because you don't know what it's going to be like having somebody in your space all the time. I lived with a boyfriend a long time ago in college, and it was fine, but it wasn't as natural as it was with you and I. I don't know if that's because we did it so quickly. I think it's because of our connection, but it is different. You have to see if you can cohabitate with this person in a way that's not going to have resentment. I think that's what I had in the beginning. I wasn't as connected to that person, or whatever it was, but I was building resentment because of things he wouldn't do, you know? But with you, that's never the case, and it never was the case.

Nicole: Exactly. I never minded having you in my space. When you first moved in with me, and then we got our own space, it just felt normal. I do think, too, that ideally, especially for long-term, people should move in somewhere together.

John: Absolutely, yeah. I think it's a little bit difficult, no matter what. Let's say you had a house, and you lived there by yourself, and then I moved into your house. It's like yours, and you decorated it. We could change the stuff, but I think it's better to have a fresh start. That's why, too, when we got our apartment, it was a good fresh start for us. Not that I minded that you were in my apartment, but I'm just saying that if you can do it, when you decide to move in, get a place together. Don't just move into each other's places. Or at least move into someone's place until you guys both do it, but not long-term. Like, "Oh, move into my house." I know with the economy and stuff, it's hard to just get a new house, but I think it's just a better foundation for a relationship, not having one person feel like, "You're moving into one person's house."

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. Because even if somebody's not that type of person that's like, "This is my house," it still can feel like that to the other person, no matter what. And I think on the religious side of things, because you know, it's funny because almost everything that we talk about on this podcast, religious people would agree with, but maybe not this one. But yeah, if you're honest, right? Most religious people, the reason why you don't live together before you're married is because you don't have sex before marriage, and you're already doing that. So then you might as well at least test the waters.

John: I agree with that. If you're already doing that, if you're not upholding that part, then fine. Then yeah, it doesn't make sense. But like you said, if you're not upholding the sex before marriage, then why not? I guess because your parents and everyone will frown on you, whatever, but it's your life. You need to figure stuff out because it'll be a different dynamic when you're living together. For a lot of people, it ends up being different. For us, it wasn't a different dynamic, but no, it felt very natural.

Nicole: No, it is a different dynamic for a lot of people. And like I said, I feel like you either start building more resentment, and it divides your relationship even more, or it brings you together closer, makes you stronger, which I feel like that's what it did for you and I. It's a test of like, we did the episode on becoming one. If you move in together and you try to live separate lives, you're going to have conflict. Because he's going out, hanging out with his friends, whatever, she's doing this thing that she usually does, she goes out dancing, right? And it's like, well, it's because you live a different life when you're on your own, no matter what. No matter who you are, it's like, okay, when I lived on my own, I would come home, make dinner, maybe watch some Netflix or something, and then take my time to get ready for bed, and whatever. And now that we're together, it's like we cook together, we eat dinner together, more of an experience than it was when I just lived by myself. And you know, or we'll play a game or do something rather than just watch TV. Sometimes we watch stuff like Love is Blind, but you know, and then we have times where you read a chapter of a book before we go to bed. So it's like, you create different habits and routines when someone else is in your space. You also have someone else to consider, someone else to keep in mind, and like your hobbies and things that you do change when you go from being single to in a relationship. When you're single, if your friends call you up on a Friday night, you might be like, sure, throw on some clothes and go. It doesn't matter if you come home at 2 a.m. or whatever, but if you're in a relationship, you're not just going to do that. It's just a different dynamic. And it doesn't mean that you don't have hobbies that you do yourself or hang out with your friends, but it's part of the one life. As opposed to, "I'm going to do my thing, and you're going to do your thing, and then we're going to meet up when we're ready." When you're single, you're totally focused on yourself. That's all that you have. And that's all you don't have a responsibility to anybody else. But when you get into a relationship, it's like, you're not not doing things that you want to do, but now you have to be like, "Oh, I am planning to go have lunch with my friend at like 12." Because it's like, what if you have a doctor's appointment? I mean, we share one car because it works for us, and so that's also another reason to keep that in mind. But it's like, you still go do the things that you want, but you have to keep your partner in mind. And it's not like it should be a bother to be considerate of their partner, which is also weird to me. Or they think of it as, "I need to tell everywhere I'm going or ask permission for everything."

John: I do, and it's like, no, you're thinking of it the completely wrong way. If that even crosses your mind, you're just not getting it. That's not how it is. You need to think of it as living one life, right? And so, go back to the Oneness. You are one, even when you move in. You're living under one roof, right? You should already be operating from the place of Oneness. I feel like, because plenty of people asked me after our wedding, and they're like, "Oh, how's married life?" And I'm like, it's the exact same but in a good way. I feel like it's dangerous when people treat marriage like some huge transformation in their life because you should have already been operating relationship-wise from that place. Now you're just legally adding the title, but you should have been operating this way. That's why it's so bizarre when people are like, "My last night being single." Like, no, that wasn't happening before you said, "Yes, I'll be your girlfriend." If you're thinking that, you're in trouble because you're thinking the wrong way.

Nicole: Yeah, it's like you now think things are going to change because now you're married. No, it's not. And I mean, don't get me wrong, going on a trip with your friends sounds like a great time, you know, for what it is, like a vacation with your friends. But personally, when I see people go all out for all of this wedding stuff, with the bachelor, with the bridal showers, spending all this money, it just doesn't feel genuine. We spent a pretty penny on our wedding, don't get me wrong, but if you went to our wedding, it was very intimate, just everybody having a really good time. The money felt like it was spent for something more meaningful, rather than spending thousands of dollars on flowers that are going to die. Or tens of thousands of dollars that some people do, or spending thousands of dollars on a bachelorette trip with airplane tickets, all the gifts you're supposed to get all the people. It just turns into this super expensive production. Like I said, don't get me wrong, because we thought about doing a combined bachelor and bachelorette party with other couples, which I think that's fine because it's like a vacation for your other couple friends.

John: It's like, so, I'm not saying we're totally against vacations with your friends or whatever, but it has to be within the context of where you are. Like you said, you're not single. You shouldn't just go out with a bunch of your girlfriends like you would if you were single. Get your couple friends together. But speaking of travel, too, I think that's a good test of the relationship itself. The first time you travel because it especially tests what you say, the poop. You're going to have to poop in front of them.

Nicole: Yeah, that's always awkward, the first time pooping. Unless it's always like, I mean, you can wait until you go out to the restaurant, and then you can be like, "Oh, I got to hit the restroom," which that's definitely what people do. People definitely try everything they can. Why hotel rooms, every hotel room, mandatory should have a fan, a loud fan. And sometimes a lot of hotel rooms, especially nice hotel rooms, it's like a glass enclosure for the toilet. You're like, why would this even... You know what's happening all the way. It's not like a soundproofing sort of spot.

John: I was thinking more in terms of like the logistics. Things are stressful, right? You're trying to get to the flight, you got to get your stuff packed. There's like, you got to check in or the rental car. Where are you going to get this, and things are going to go wrong. And you can see, almost like, you know how people are kind of like, "Let's watch 'Love is Blind' and dissect it." But like when the couples were like, "We need to get into a fight to see what we're going to be like." It's kind of like that. You want to get into a situation where it's a little stressful and things are happening to see how that person's going to react, man or woman.

Nicole: Exactly, because a lot of times, women can freak out, and a lot of times, men can freak out. So it's like, how is this, but especially as a woman, it's like, how is he going to handle this? If you're letting the man lead, when things get rough, you want to see how he's going to handle it. It also helps build your trust in him as a leader to see that. I'm not saying that if we're in a stressful situation, I'm just going to be like, "Go ahead, John, figure it all out." I'm going to help you, but the man should be on top of it, figuring it out. If he starts reacting, starts snapping, or just abdicates and it's like, "You figure it out," instead of taking charge of the situation and getting it taken care of, then you're getting a lot of information about how he's going to handle life. And we're saying this from a place of both of us have traveled with previous partners that have made it horrible. John and I have traveled many places now together, and we've dealt with our own wrenches in plans, and it's never been like that. So it's a really good test. I'm not saying like go to a different country or fly somewhere just to test your relationship, but definitely, if you're kind of in a position where you're like, "I don't know about this person being the one for me," you could even do like a weekend trip somewhere. Because even with the weekend trips, you're going to run into something. It's a little bit less if you're not flying or something, but I think even a weekend trip could get you a good sort of...

John: Yeah, it's good to have a good four to five days together, though, because most longer than even if they're living together, most people are working, right? So they're not spending four to five days together, totally together. You spend four to five days together and see, and play some Overcooked and see where you're.

John: At if you really want to test your relationship, play Overcooked. We're saying this as people who don't fight during Overcooked and get the four stars, but sometimes even we will be like, "Why didn't you chop the tomatoes?" But it's not like it's not... Yeah, spend that amount of time together constantly. It's weird because I know that most people, when they hear that, they're like, "Oh yeah." But it's like, for us, it's honestly, there's no like, we can't get enough. There's never us getting annoyed or like, "I just need my space." I can't wait to get back and just have... I never feel like that. I know you say that you never feel like that either.

Nicole: No, I know. I'm like, we could stay for however long we wanted. But trips for guys, right? It's like you book everything, take care of the dates, plan out the hotel, all the rental, all the stuff. That's the man's job now. And the reason why I say that specifically is most guys delegate that to a woman. They're like, "You pick the place."

John: You, and it's like, you're... But don't hold it over her head because I've also had somebody plan things and be like, "I planned everything, and you didn't do anything." And it's like, uh, you could have asked me. Yeah, that's not the point. You just do that because you're the man, and you take care of the things so she doesn't have to worry about these things, and you make it nice. Well, it also again is another thing that shows her that you're taking the lead. Authority, long, that's what it is. So yeah, so that's important to do that stuff, take care of everything, make sure it's all taken care of. Yeah, that's going to be a hard one, I think, for guys.

Nicole: Yeah, but it's important. That's... But you have to care enough. I think that's the thing, is that guys, like, they're planning trips, and they don't really care enough, or maybe they don't even really want to go. Maybe they have, maybe their wife, or their partner, or whoever makes trips unbearable, and so they're not planning...

John: You know, I get it if that's the case, but then you have to sit there and be like, "What am I doing?" And you need to do this before you get married. Right? Or if you're, if it was fine, and you got married, and now you're in this place of you're like, "I can't stand going anywhere with her," then you need to work on your marriage. You need to figure out what you guys need to work on. And see, that was a good indicator when I was with you when we traveled on our first trips. Stressful situations did come up, and I was like amazed that you're just being cool about it. That there was like, it was like even if we're like coming close to being late for a flight or whatever, it was like we're just working together. No one was getting all snippy, and yeah, like you were just so calm. And I was like, okay, that's not what I'm used to.

Nicole: Well, what are you going to do? Like, what is yelling and freaking out going to do? Nothing ever. What is yelling and freaking out ever going to do? I mean, it's one thing if you're like on the edge of a cliff and you're about to fall off, and you could freak out. It still probably isn't going to help you, but yeah, you know, like that's... But that's my thing too. And then, you know, for me, a lot of the things that I was like, "Wow," was if like maybe I wasn't feeling good. 'Cause like sometimes I get sick feeling when I travel, or you know, I'm really tired because of, you know, when we went to Mexico, I was up at 3:00 a.m., and I was so tired, and you weren't like, "What? Like, I paid for this trip. We just got here, and you want to sleep." Like, plenty of guys would act like that, but I was like, you understood though that I got up, and you appreciated what I went through to get to where we were. And I feel like a lot of people don't do that, you know. A lot of guys don't do that. And or they'll be like, "Oh, I bought this, all this, so we could like have a good time," and in their head, "and get laid," and that's all they care about. They don't care about the actual person that's there. But you always cared. And like, you know, if we went somewhere and I'm like, "My stomach hurts," you're not going to be like, "Well, we still need to go," or "I'll drop you off at the hotel, and I'll go out." Right? Like, that. And people do that. That's the other thing, is they go on trips together, and then they do separate things. Right? Like, "Well, I'm going to stay out at the bar. You, you're tired, go to bed," or whatever. No, yeah, that's not... And that, the war, that you find that stuff out too, you know.

John: True, that's why. But yeah, the other thing I was going to say too, is like, so we talked about the trips, is friends. Like, how you got to find out how your partner acts in front of their friends. 'Cause yeah, some people act... And family, but... But friend, well, family, I guess too, because they sometimes people will revert to a different version of themselves when they're around family, or they'll... Well, it's triggering, so I get it. But yeah, especially, I think women need...

Nicole: To see how a man treats his mother. Mhm, I think, right. Just, you know, uh, in multiple ways. Like, obviously, if he doesn't treat her very well, red flag. But obviously, if he's like too attached, red flag. Yeah, like, you can tell if he like cares and like takes care of her without it being like overstepping your relationship sort of. And I think a guy should also see a woman's relationship with her father. I think that's important too. Like, 'cause it doesn't... I mean, if it's a bad relationship, then it can, there can be some problems off of that, you know. If she has a good, if she... I think for a man, like, when he sees a woman interacting with her family, with her father especially, if she looks up to her father, if she respects him, if she feels like he's a man, like, if she, you know, she treats him with that kind of authority or respect, respect, that's a good sign. Because that means that she...

John: Probably respects a man. I mean, she's going to have a high standard for a guy, which is good. By the means that she probably respects him. But if she's totally disrespectful to her father, then you can expect that she's going to probably be totally disrespectful to you.

Nicole: Stressful. She's probably never, yeah, ever respected a man in her life. So yeah, which, you know, you also can't pick who you grow up with. So I'm not saying that there's women out there who have maybe have a dad they don't respect and they could still respect men, you know. If they've interacted with good men. So it's not a for sure thing, obviously, like people need to use the knowledge that they have. But I agree with you that, like, I don't think I'd maybe break up with somebody, but it's a good indicator to like kind of see what could happen. But because you're getting like when people are comfortable around and they're usually around comfortable around their friends and...

John: Their family, right? And that's the thing. You want to see how this person reacts in situations where they're on their best behavior, especially if it's a new relationship. They don't want to mess things up, or they might be infatuated with you to the point where they're acting differently because they're afraid of losing you. That usually goes away, you know, to the point where they're more comfortable. And then, now they're comfortable with you, but now you're so far in that it's harder to leave for a lot of people.

Nicole: Exactly, because they've spent so much time, they invested so much time, but now the person's changed, you know? And you just really never saw them. So yeah, that's a good indicator. And in front of friends too, I think is a big one too because it's kind of like with kids, you know? Like how they act at home versus when they act when they're with their friends, especially when they're showing off in front of their friends.

John: Yeah, exactly. And it's like you get to see because a lot of times, people will start to, they might even be mean to their partner to show how cool they are, showing off in front. And that's like, they're right there. You get to see what choice they're making. Like, who are they really valuing? Are they trying to look good in front of their friends but they care about their partner, or do they stop being affectionate in front of their friends too?

Nicole: Right, it's like, "Oh, I don't want my friends to see that I..." Well, I struggle with affection too, and sometimes it's not that I'm totally not affectionate towards you. I think mine too is just, I hate people feeling like a third wheel or something, or, you know, like awkward around two people doing PDA because we can be very affectionate. So I'm always like, what's an appropriate amount? And sometimes I feel like I hold back too much because I know how much I could be affectionate towards you, and I'm like, I don't want to scare people with how affectionate we are. But you're always like, "It's fine."

John: Yeah, and it's just like something that I'm learning. It's a fine balance. It's fine to be as affectionate as you want, even if other people are around, to your partner. You just have to be careful with the sexuality line. That's where it's not because no one's really going to be super uncomfortable if you're hanging on your partner, if you're, you know, kissing. Some people are because they don't like, they don't even maybe feel that with the person that they're with, you know? Or like, they're bitter because they haven't found somebody. But that's not something you should cater to.

Nicole: I know, but it's like, you know, I just think about all the people.

John: But yeah, but it's also not good for them because they're not seeing the example that they should be looking for. So it's better for people. It's like even the same thing, like we've had talks about with my daughter and stuff. And it's like, yeah, we want to be as affectionate as possible around so that she sees because it's very easy to make the argument, say, "Oh well, you know, don't want to make her feel bad or whatever." And it's like, but now you want her to see this is how people who are married, who are in love, how they treat each other. And it's funny because even she was like, she's like, "I don't know if I want to get married. I don't want to, you guys are just boring. You just like, it's like you guys just like eat and go to bed." And we're like, "No, we go on dates when you're not here because we want to spend time with you when you're here, like hello." And she's like, "Oh." And we're like, "Yeah, you know, like it's a little different because we have her 50/50, but it's, you know, we spend the week with her, with her. Yeah, because we know we'll have a week to go on dates or, you know, do whatever we want to do." But you know, and she sees us play Overcooked.

Nicole: Yeah, but she, I don't think she likes Overcooked. But you know, have you ever had situations where people are different if other friends... I mean, I'm sure I have, but it's hard because it's like, you're not in that relationship, so you don't see them like go back, you know? But then you see the couple. I don't know, because sometimes too, maybe people act more affectionate in front of their friends to look like they're happier, and then at home, they don't.

John: Oh yeah, they can put on the friendly. So it's, you know, it's hard to tell for sure if people are doing that. But I know what you mean because I think it's that, I mentioned the kid thing, you know? How kids act different in front of their friends. Like at home, they like, you know, do what they're supposed to, but then when their friends are here, they're like, "Do you want to paint on the wall?" And you're like, "What? No."

Nicole: Yeah, but I mean, the drinking too can be a thing too, in front of the friends. Where it's like, yeah, well, that's go out drinking in general. If you're out with friends and stuff, they're going to enable you.

John: Yeah, like not, that's just going to happen. Like when I was single, and I would go out with my friends, they would always try to get me to drink more, and I'm like, "No." Like, I never had a problem being like, "No," but they'd still try. And so it's like, you know, even if you're a couple too, and you're going out with other couples, and you're drinking, your friends are going to enable you.

Nicole: Yeah, and like, try to be like, "Oh, go do this," or like, you know, whatever. But and then too, that can make you like more affectionate than normal because you're inebriated, and like, that might not be for the right reason, or, you know, I don't know. It's just, yeah, all that kind of stuff kind of muddies the water of the relationship. But it is important. It is important to put yourself in these situations: the traveling, the seeing how people are around friends and family, living with each other because that, like, I feel like you have to do those things in order to really get a good grip on, "Can I marry this person?"

John: Right, and if you don't want to get married, then I guess, you know, do whatever you want to do. But even if you're just planning to stay in a long-term relationship, you still need to do those things before, to figure out if it is going to be a long-term relationship. So really, everybody should be doing it unless you're in a situationship, or, you know, you just started dating. Like, I'm not telling people to go to Mexico on the fourth date like we did, but like, it is important because we've both been in situations where, you know, we've been on trips, and I mean, luckily, I was in one where immediately after the trip...

John: Actually, on that trip, I wanted to break up, but we had like 5 days left, so I was like, "I can't do this obviously here and now." I need to wait, but immediately after, I broke up with them. It is a big deal. You find out a lot of information.

Nicole: Yeah, like you see how people really treat you. And like I said, especially in stressful situations because life is always going to have some stressful situations. You need to see how the person's going to react.

John: Yeah, because you could be calm, cool, and collected, and you're with somebody that blows the heck up. It drains you, even if you're trying to be the rock.

Nicole: Yeah, even if you're trying to be calm, cool, and collected, even if you're trying to figure things out, somebody totally going off the rail or freaking out can ruin your whole trip. Let them be with someone else that also freaks out, and then they can freak out together. You find somebody that is on the same page as you and makes even a stressful situation enjoyable. That's what I feel like me and you have. Even if, for some reason, like one time we got stuck in Charlotte with too, we didn't do anything crazy, but it wasn't like we were mad at each other the whole time sitting in the hotel room situation.

John: Well, part of it also too is that, as a man, I handle situations. They need to be dealt with, right? I think if I wasn't like that, you'd probably get annoyed.

Nicole: Well, yeah. I think too, as a woman, personally, like I've said in other things, when you're on your own as a woman, you have to figure things out. So, if you're in a relationship and the man, instead of like, "Okay, let's figure this out," is like, "Oh my God, what are we going to do?" It's almost like it gives you the ick because you're like, "Well, what are you going to do? How did you survive life up to this point?" It's like, that's not going to get us anywhere.

John: Right, it does show what the dynamic's going to be. Because if he's freaking out over this, what if his car breaks down on the side of the road, and instead of just sucking it up and calling AAA or a tow truck, he calls you and he's like, "I broke down. I'm just going to sit here for a while because I don't know what to do." You know what I mean?

Nicole: No, and part of the whole thing too, I think, just even with the travel and like I was talking about booking everything, is like, okay, well if we're booking a trip, I'm taking care of that. That's a microcosm for it, right? You're encompassing everybody in that because it's under your responsibility.

John: Exactly. And that's the thing, even with the spaces and getting together, I think a lot of the conflict and issues happen where the guy's not viewing it as the woman, or the couple not viewing it that way. The man's not setting it forth like, "Okay, you're entering my life, so I'm going to take care of you and make sure that all these things," you know, even if a woman's entering a guy's space, does he give her a toothbrush, does he give her the big closet space, or is she like a secondhand citizen?

Nicole: Right, like he's still about him, but she's just there now. But I think too, that kind of goes into maybe a whole different topic of like, I just don't feel like men take pride in taking care of a woman. They see them as a child, which even makes me more afraid that men view taking care of their woman as similar to a child because that makes me feel like they wouldn't really care about taking care of their child either. It's like a burden. So, be careful of those sorts of men, ladies. If they are telling you that taking care of a woman is like taking care of another child or dependent, don't reproduce with them, don't date them.

John: Yeah, that's a whole other episode because that really should be a whole other episode. How you want women to be, you men are going to be that. That's how you want it to be, that's how it should be.

Nicole: So yeah, definitely do all those things. We should probably move to our segment.

John: What is the segment?

Nicole: I mean, I don't know. We've had a great trip. The only thing is that you felt like I didn't initiate certain activities at the beginning of the trip, but that's it. It wasn't a huge thing. I think it was just something that I needed to be reminded of because when you told me about what makes you feel desired and like initiate, I thought initiate meant me doing things to you, which I do, but you view it as me telling you what I want you to do to me, and that has been hard for me to fully process.

John: So, it was really just kind of like a refresher thing of something we already talked about. It wasn't a big huge thing.

Nicole: Yeah, I just feel like that sort of stuff, and like the clingy stuff, it's women just get really confused about those sorts of things because they're told so many different things. They still feel like they should be very independent by most men, and so it's, you know, I feel like a lot of that kind of confuses women when you're in a situation like this. Like, "Oh, you want me to be clingy? Oh, you want me to tell you what I want you to do?" You know, in that way. So, it's something that I'm just trying to still process, which I feel like I've been better because this is like the beginning of the week, and you know, it's just a learning curve. Being with you helped me naturally fall into a more feminine role, just on its own because you're so masculine, but there are still parts that I learned as a woman in today's society of doing things on your own and not being clingy and not acting like you need him too much. So, it's just, you have to unlearn a lot of things.

Nicole: To know that, like when you're dating, right, because you don't want to give a man things that he doesn't deserve, he hasn't earned, right? But at the same time, it's hard to unlearn them, especially when you're dating for so long. Like you and I met when I was at the end of my 20s, and so that's a long time dating with these sorts of things that were beneficial to dating. But then when you're in this dynamic, and you know, they're still ingrained, and you got to chip away at some of that.

John: Yeah, no, that makes sense. It's true. And I think the biggest thing is, like, the feminine requires safety, right? And because all of those things are things that require vulnerability, which requires safety because the feminine is fragile, delicate.

Nicole: Well, and I think as a woman, you're so used to being screwed over. I'm not saying men don't get screwed over, not saying that. But like, look at Love is Blind. How many men on that show, when they are fragile, have done... yes, are vulnerable, and you know, and guys are acting like they care, right? And then they don't actually, you know? Or they're saying all the right things, and a woman believes them.

John: And then they leave them high and dry at the altar. So it's like, you know, it's just scary for women, you know? And that's why it's confusing. Yeah, 'cause you learn one thing, and then when you're finally safe, you're almost like afraid still. Or like, you still have some of those things. Like I said, like I'm not afraid, right? But there's still just a... that's like, I don't want to be selfish. I don't want to, like, you know, tell you what to do or whatever. But it's not that way. But it's like, that's what was programmed in my brain. And not only that, but it's like, even when we make these episodes and the comments on the clips and stuff, it reinforces that to a lot because guys, like, it's like instead of... there's not very many guys that are in their masculinity that are like, I want a woman that depends on me, right? For her, and I want to take care of her. How many men have you seen come on somewhere and been like, I want to take care of a woman? How many, right? You don't see that. And then none, in fact, they're saying the exact opposite things, which makes... and then women read that, and they're like, okay, I don't see any men saying I want to take care of a woman, so I need to make sure I take care of myself because I'm reading all these comments of men being like, I don't need another... I don't need a kid. And like I say all the time, guys are screwing themselves over because the things that they do want, the feminine things that they want, they come from that safety, which is the responsibility of taking care of a woman. That's when she gives you that feminine side. And it's like, you know, so you... I'm still messing up sometimes, but I'm trying.

John: Hardly. I'm trying.

Nicole: All right, well, I guess that's it for our episode in Paradise. Aloha.

John: Aloha. Mahalo for joining us today.

Nicole: Mahalo. Mahalo for joining us today.