John: Every single person should stop trying to read their partner's mind. They'll be like, "Well, why doesn't my husband just know that I want this? Why doesn't my wife just know that I want this to happen today at 5:00?" No one can know that. You have to start taking things at literal face value, especially men, because they are more literal. Most men just say exactly what they mean. They're not like women, where a man will be like, "What's wrong?" and they're like, "Nothing," but the woman inside's like, "Please ask me what else is wrong again 50 times, and then I'll tell you." We need to stop doing all that. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find a way. Welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow. I was going to say become...

Nicole: Better equals one better than perfect relationship. Yeah, it's always the grow. It is always the grow. Helping each other become better. No, that's too much better. It's yeah, it's grow. And then I was like, I swear I woke up in the middle of the night, and I was like, "Welcome to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we show you how two people," and I was like, "No, no, it's imperfect people because it's perfect." You're having nightmares because of this. Maybe I need to start doing the intro. Help you out a little bit. Won't too much pressure on. I just have a teleprompter and be like, "Hi." You need to look at me, and I'll be like, "Grow." I'll be your teleprompter because you do good. It's just always the grow. You're like, "Helping each other equals one better." I'm going to practice in the mirror. I'm going to just... There you go. Yeah, until I... Whatever works. Make a special voice for it and stuff.

John: We did get a comment that I was going to address. It was on the "Men Do Not Want Boss Babes" episode, and he said, "Genuine question. I always hear about women being in their masculine, but I personally never hear about men in their feminine. Why is that? Do content creators just not think it's necessary to talk about? Am I not looking in the right places for this discourse? I'd like people's takes. This isn't a gotcha. Most people think it'll be. I'm genuinely curious."

Nicole: That's kind of interesting because we've never really... I mean, I guess we've kind of discussed it a little bit, but we do definitely say women are being in their masculine, but we don't necessarily say men are being in their feminine.

John: That's true, but it's kind of hard to describe because, like we were talking about a little bit, it's not like men are painting their nails and... Well, they are actually now, but you know, they're not like having sleepovers and pillow fights. That's not what we mean by feminine. It's more of them allowing their emotions to completely overtake their logical side of themselves.

Nicole: Yeah, and instead living in this really emotional place to the point where it's kind of like if you've been around a woman who allows her emotions to completely control her, and she seems unstable, right? The dark side of the feminine, like the just totally not in control of their own life, seeming sort of thing. And that's why women aren't really necessarily attracted to that because we are more emotional anyway, right? And sometimes, even if you're emotionally intelligent and things like that, it still can feel unstable. And a woman really needs somebody that can be more grounded in those moments than she necessarily can if she's with a more feminine man in that sense. There's no stability really there, or it's very shaky, and so it's unreliable. It's not stable, and so it's not a good long-term fit for a woman when two people are in that sort of state.

John: Yeah, and they want to, like, men want to be taken care of, and that's the other thing. Not... I don't think it's even necessarily like that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's like they want to be taken care of, though, like a woman does. Not taking care of like a manly masculine man wants to be. Like, he wants to be taken care of. He wants to feel like his woman is supporting him and taking care of his needs and things like that. Like, that is how a man should be taken care of, right? But they want to be taken care of the same way that they see a lot of women and be like, "Well, I want to stay home and not have to work, and I want to be flown out on vacations, and I want to not have to plan anything and just go," and it's like, you know, that sort of thing is more feminine.

Nicole: Yeah, and it's the 50/50 guys, right? That's, I would say, a man being in his feminine. I would say that this one pisses off people all the time, the guys, is that I would say that anger is a feminine emotion. So when guys display anger, and they're always, "No, it's a masculine emotion." No, because anger means a lack of control. Anger is never a useful emotion. It never is helpful, right? To express anger, right? So if you're expressing anger, then, and we see a lot of angry men, and every time I see an angry man, I think feminine. I don't think masculine. I think feminine. Right, but like you said, it's like, I mean, you use the term dark feminine. I think it's like an unhealed feminine because even people would say that a really aggressive guy is an unhealed masculine because he has some attributes that are masculine, like he stands up for what he believes in and things like that that we've talked about before, but it's not healed. Like, he's unhealed because he still has these characteristics that are not healthy. They're not helping him. They're actually hurting him that he doesn't even realize. And same with the feminine unhealed would be allowing your emotions to completely take over your life, spew on other people. You have no control over them, sort of thing. So that is kind of... It is, and that's why, like, we use masculine to talk about the females that are doing their own thing and things like that, and in a way, that's kind of like an unhealed because they feel like they have to compete and be this aggressive woman, which is not healed, you know? And then the feminine men are, you know, allowing their emotions to overtake them to the point where it's also altering their views of the world, yeah, and they're spewing it all over people and all of this messiness. So it's very unhealed on both sides because we're not supposed to have that much of that thing. We all have both dynamics inside of us, masculine and feminine, but it has to be healed. It has to be a good balance, yeah, whether you're a man or a woman. I think the difficulty, too, is that there's really not good definitions of what is masculine or feminine. People don't understand that very well unless you actually study it and really look into it. So it's easier for us to say.

John: A woman's being in her masculine is easily identifiable. We can identify that she's acting masculine, but it's harder even though a lot of men are living in their feminine. But I think that the best way to look at it is a departure from what you're supposed to be as a man. So as a man, you're supposed to be a rock, stable, assertive, logical, decisive. You're not supposed to be ruffled very easily. That's what masculinity is. And so, men that are departing from that, they're easily disturbed, they want to be protected and provided for, they're emotional. That's a man being in his feminine. And really, I think the other piece of this is that most men are living in their feminine, and that's why we don't even notice it because it's become so commonplace. The way that you can tell is because, as a woman, how rare is it to see a masculine man in the wild? Very, right? You dated a lot of guys before we got together and got married. From what you said, you didn't see very many masculine men. And I grew up with a masculine dad, so I did know what it was. Granted, a lot of people don't have that same experience. So some women never really see a masculine man in real life. Like I said, with the [__] thing, you can see a lot of [__] type men that think they're masculine, but they're really not. It's hard to find a true masculine man because it's not about being aggressive and it's not about being an [__]. It's about being a gentleman, having that soft, caring part inside but that you will hold your ground, stand up for what you believe in, and have that strong side as well. So it's like a balance.

Nicole: And I did want to add to what you said earlier. I posted a thing on our Instagram that it's Men's Mental Health Awareness Month. So I want to add, though, like what you're saying, you're not saying to suppress your emotions. That's also where men shove it all down. They hear things like this and they're not really listening to what we're saying. So I want to explain it more. We're not saying to suppress your emotions. That is not the advice we're giving here. It's that you have to learn to process your emotions. And I know you've talked about this in your content. It's like, feel the thing and then let it go. You have to feel the emotion and process it. Men are logical, so they need to use that logical side of them to process, "Okay, this is why I felt this. This is what I'm feeling right now. And how can I either prevent this from happening again, or this might happen again, and I'm going to handle it this way next time?" They have to analyze it. They have to use that logical side so that they will develop emotional maturity.

John: Yes, and they'll be able to be what you said, you know, that rock, who can handle when things don't go the way that they should. Not in any way are we saying that you should suppress them because it's just going to build up. You're going to get more emotional, do more outrageous things that you shouldn't be doing. And that is what I know a lot of men say, that they get this message where, "Don't be emotional." But that's not what we're saying.

Nicole: No, and it's... Let me give the quick rundown. So, yeah, give the full... This is how I explain it. There are three ways to handle emotions. One of them is you can express them. Second is you can repress them, and third is you can process them. If you express them, if you think like a river is flowing towards you, if you express them, you're diverting the river and spraying it all over everyone else. That's not good. That's what happens when you get angry and yelling and screaming. The second thing you can do is you can repress them. That's like the river is coming, and you're absorbing all of the river. Eventually, what's going to happen is you're going to explode. But that's not good. You're stuffing it down. You're trying to absorb that river. So if you process the emotions, the river is coming at you, you're letting the river flow through you. So you're feeling it, you're letting it go. It goes through. You're not trying to hold it there. You're not trying to send it somewhere else. That's the healthy way to do it. And that's part of the road of emotional mastery for a man, is to be able to handle that. But the other aspect of it is the stoic sense of it, which means that you also practice acceptance, which means that you never even feel those emotions in the first place. As you practice that, now you're going to feel things, and when you do, you have to process them. But as you start letting things go and not making a big deal about things and practicing acceptance instead of having expectations, then you find that less things bother you. You have less of these negative emotions coming up because negative emotions always come from unmet expectations. So there's my spiel on that. But you're absolutely right because people misinterpret this and think we're saying, "Stuff down and don't talk about it." And that's not good for anyone's mental health.

Nicole: Right. Being a man is simply being able to manage and process those emotions in the right way that you're not spilling them all over other people. It's a lot more acceptable for a woman to be more expressive of her emotions, but she should also still learn emotional maturity because we are more emotional, and that's our responsibility.

John: Mhmm.

Nicole: And it's men's responsibility too. We're talking about this; that could probably be a whole other episode too. What a man can teach a woman is to be more logical so that she can make more sense of her emotions and learn emotional maturity. Women know how big and painful emotions can feel, and they can help men learn how to express them in the proper way too, as long as she knows what I mean, and make men feel like it's okay because it is okay to have feelings. You're not a robot. Being the logical sex does make you seem a bit more robotic. I'm not going to lie. A lot of times, women are like, "How do you not...?" You know, when we watch that movie, and I'm like, "How do you not sad they left the dinosaur that doesn't even exist on the island?" That part of a man, the emotional part, is what makes you loving and caring, but you have to hone in on the parts that can be negative, like the anger and certain sides that men can just let spew all over.

John: Over the place, and same with women. Because, you know, when women get into an argument with their husband or their boyfriend or something, they can also be like, "I hate you," and they don't really think that, right? But they're just trying to hurt the other person, and that's not healthy either. So, it's like both sides of the coin can help each other, but if they're so disregulated, then both people need to be working on how they can regulate those things.

Nicole: Yeah, we need to do two episodes, one on positive and negative masculinity, and femininity, right? And then, you also reminded me of, we should do an episode on the four quadrants that I came up with, of the four types of men. Yeah, talk through all those things. For this episode, we're talking about this book. Yes, this book is called "The Surrendered Wife" by Laura Doyle, and this is a book that gets some criticism on the internet. But I will say, though, we both read this book. I found the book I was looking for because I was like, okay, there are some books that I recommend to men on how to be masculine in a relationship, but there are very few books on how to be feminine and femininity and how to be a good wife in a relationship, you know, woman. Which I wouldn't even say this as a book on femininity, per se, like yeah, there are some aspects to it, but I think it is a book on how to have what we feel like is the best dynamic for a couple, which is the man is the leader and the authority and leads the relationship, and the woman gets to be more soft and follow his lead, right? And that sort of dynamic creates the most peace for both people because men need to feel like they have a purpose, which would be leading the relationship, and women want to not have the stress in their lives so that they can focus on their feminine aspects like nurturing and caring and, you know, living a softer life, right? Because we were talking about this in the car as well, women are not designed to handle stress the way that men are. No human being is designed to handle huge amounts of stress, period, but women are not like, they're not able to handle it as easy as men can. And there are even times in our relationship where you're like, "Give me this thing so you're not stressed out," and I'm like, no, it stressed me out thinking about stressing you out more. So, you know, this sort of dynamic that we have, and that she talks about in the book, is, I feel like, the more beneficial way for both the man and the woman because the man gets to step up and be the man that he wants to be, deep down. Yeah, and the woman gets to kind of let go of the control, let go of feeling like she has to be the one to make sure everything is in the right place and everything's flowing normally, and that stresses her out more than she even thinks a lot of the time. She can let go of control, she can focus on the things that she needs to focus on, and be more in her feminine.

John: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and so, I mean, this book, like all books, is not perfect, right? But we both highly recommend this book because this book will help you in that, especially, I think it depends on who you are, but I would say most women should read this book. Most women should at least read it.

Nicole: And I wrote down that it's especially good for a more masculine woman. Like, if you were single for so long and you had to do everything on your own. I know we're just talking about masculine women and things like that. Yeah, that, and maybe you had a more feminist viewpoint, like, you know, women can do everything. Like, I'm not saying that they can't, but I'm just saying this book is written from a woman who was a woman. Yeah, she calls herself a feminist to the point where she did not take her husband's last name for 9 years of their marriage, 9 years, which I thought was crazy, yeah, um, to begin with. Like, that just shows how much of a feminist she was, though, which I appreciated about the book. Because, as we talked about on other episodes too, I was more masculine before you came along, and so I do feel like it's beneficial because I do feel like a lot of women are in their masculine because they have to be, especially because there's a lot of feminine men, like we just talked about. And so, you get the perspective of someone that's been on both sides. Like, this is not a woman who was raised in the church and is like, "I'm just supposed to obey my husband." That's not what this book is about; it's not who wrote it. It's beneficial whether you're ready to settle down or anything like that. I mean, it's definitely good for people who are getting married or in a serious relationship. Like, you should definitely be reading that. But, you know, it's, I think it's good for everybody to read, but I'm the type of person too that I will take any sort of point from a book, even if I don't love the book. You can usually find some nuggets of wisdom in the book anyway.

John: And I'll say, you know, I've been coaching guys for over 10 years now, and, you know, ladies, your husband would definitely like for you to read this book. Like, you will definitely because, and the reason why I say that is because a lot of the things that she talks about in this book are exactly what men are complaining about in the relationship, or exactly the broken problem on the female side of it. Now, again, a man should be the leader of the relationship. He should be the ones that are working on repairing, improving, you know, guiding their relationship. But if you're, this, the thing I like the most about this book is this because women are not in the leading position, right? But this, as a woman, sort of allows you to lead in the sense that it allows you to do it or to influence without having to be the one in charge. Because it's really hard, like as a man in a relationship, I can be like, okay, look, no, this is what we need to do, right? And I, and when I'm stepping up and making decisions and leading, it's attractive to you because that's my role, that's how I should be. If you're a woman in a relationship, right, and you notice there are problems and you want to fix them and change them, it's much harder for you because if you step up and say, look, this is what we need to do, and you start, then you're actually hurting the relationship by trying to fix it. So, it kind of puts you in this passive position where it's like, I can't do anything. But that's why I like this book is because if you start implementing the things that are in this book, you're able to actually have that kind of influence. Because a lot of times, women are stuck in situations where they're like, well, what do I do? I just have to wait for my man to be more masculine, right? And this is ways to do it because a lot of what she says about in this book, kind of blocking his masculine, like, and he's learned to almost be more feminine because you've been masculine for so long that he gets to sit back and enjoy the ride, and while you plan the vacations and.

John: You know, that's what's happening, so it's kind of fitting that we started with the feminine man thing because I think it ties in a lot. Yeah, to, you know, some of these men are more feminine, maybe not even by their choice but because they've been with such masculine women.

Nicole: They've kind of been like, "Okay, well, I'm going to be passenger princess then, and I don't have to do anything." Right, you know? And she talks about that a lot in this book. And I will say that the book is a little black and white with some of the stuff in the sense that she is talking to women who are still really in their masculine. Like you said, the women who have to control everything to the point where their man doesn't really do a lot of the stuff, and the woman does everything. But they don't even realize that by them taking over such extreme control, they've caused their husband to not have to do anything. It's not that he necessarily wants to not do anything; it's that he doesn't feel like he can talk about it or just do it or things like that.

John: And so when you read the book, it is going to be a lot of like, "Don't say anything about this," or like, you know, I know in one of the parts, it talks about finances, and she's like, "Give the finances 100% to your husband." And she talks all about the women like, "Oh no, like we can't do that, and you know, our bills won't get paid, and you know, he won't do it." And he came to me with the checkbook and is like, "Help me because I'm the one usually paying the bills." And she's like, "Don't even talk to him. Don't even." And I was like, "Wow, that's dramatic though, and it's going to be hard." And she talks about it. She's like, "You're going to want to give in and be like, let me just do it," you know what I mean? Which is what a lot of women do when they try to give a little bit of the control back to the man. They're like, "Uh, just let me do it." Yeah, and then they're right back where they started. But you have to, and you know, you have to do it to that level because a lot of women, because it's men's fault too because men need to be, well, okay, look, a man should have not allowed this to happen in the first place, right? He should have taken charge. He should be in charge of the finances, right? He should have been handling all those things. But if he didn't, then a lot of times what ends up happening is that the woman is now babying the man by taking care of this stuff, right? Because he can't handle this stuff or, you know, and then she starts to despise him and think he's incompetent or another child. A lot of women say that, joke that all the time, right?

Nicole: And so what's beautiful about this approach is that you're letting him sink or swim. And so, yeah, maybe the bill doesn't get paid, and you lose the electricity, and that will happen one time, maybe two times, right? And I know that sucks if that happens, but he's a competent human being. He will learn; he'll figure it out. He will get on track, but it will only happen when you completely take your hands off of it and let him. And men are going to make mistakes and fail, but part of being a man is having the support of a woman is that she lets you make your mistakes, you know? And she talks about that in one of the chapters. She talks about how you have to be really vulnerable to do this because it is in your survival instincts to be like, "Why am I going to let him not pay the electricity bill if I do it every month on time? That would never happen. Why am I going to give this to somebody who's potentially going to drop the ball?" And she's like, "You basically have to just be vulnerable and have to put yourself in that position because he's not going to be able to get back to the man that you want or that he was if you're still controlling the situation." So, I thought that was good as like, and it is scary because even when you go from being single, and you have, as a woman, you have everything figured out. You pay your bills; you do this; you've like come up with a good cleaning schedule. You're like, effectively like doing all these different things, and you're like, "Wow, this is awesome." And then you get in a relationship, even if you're with a masculine man, like you, you have all these like processes that women think about that men don't necessarily think about. And so you start implementing things like that, and then it's harder to get your man into those. So you're kind of like, you start taking a little bit more control. You're like, "Okay, well, if you, you know, put your dirty clothes in the basket every time, then I can just nicely take them to the laundry room, you know?" And because like when you're on your own, you're not throwing your clothes all over the place. You're not doing things that men can do sometimes. And then you add a man in there, and like he's not really worried about where he drops his clothes because he's worried about other things. He's worried about paying the bills and things like that. And so it's like, it can even start with little things like that where you want to take control, yeah. And especially if you grew up with not a lot of control over your own life in some way, yeah. I'm not meaning like you didn't get to do whatever you want as a kid, but if you know, you know, where you don't necessarily have the control of your life that you need to feel secure, yeah, you extra try to control things. And so I think most women, to some extent, have some version of that. And I do agree with what she said, that it's some sort of survival mechanism as well too. But you really do have to let that go, especially if you're married. Like this is a surrendered wife. Like you have to, again.

John: And this is the book where she said, "You chose this man for a reason. You should be respecting him." Just the lady that said that, "You married this guy. Would you really have married a Manchild?" No, so somewhere along the way, you have taken so much control that you made this man into a Manchild.

Nicole: Yeah, and I agree that anytime a man could step up and be like, "No, I'm going to do this," or "No, like this is a boundary I have." So I'm not saying it's all a woman's fault, but at the same time, us as women, we have to learn how to let go of control. And that's something that I struggled with too, that you've helped me with as well. So that, I feel like, is a huge part of this book as well too. I mean, that's the surrendered part, right? Like if you read, which we read the, what is the other surrendered book by, oh, uh, the uh, Michael Singer, the yeah, the surrender experiment, or no, well, he did that one. I don't think we read that one though.

John: I think we did. It's along the same lines though. It's about surrendering to life. So if you look at this book title and you're like, "I'm not going to surrender," yeah, like go read a book like that as well too because that will help you realize that letting go in your life.

John: Right, not just if you're a wife, right? It will help you. And here's the thing about that because women are like, "Oh, I'm not going to submit to a man. I'm not going to surrender to a man." And look, I get the perspective of that, but you have to realize when you're saying those things and asserting yourself in that way, you're being childish. Because as a man, there, I surrender to plenty of things. If I go, I always use this example, if I go to an MMA studio or whatever, or you know, kickboxing, and I have an instructor there, I don't go into the class and be like, "You can't tell me what to do." Yeah, I'm like, "Yes, sir. I chose to submit to you. I chose to submit to your authority, and I will do it because that's what I chose because that's why I'm here."

Nicole: Exactly. And I'm not saying that a man should just boss a woman around. That's never the right thing, and that's not what I'm saying at all. But what I am saying is that you have to realize, as a human being, as a mature human being, that everyone submits to some kind of authority. And the people that have problems with submission to authority are people that have internal problems. They're normally stem from childhood because anytime that someone has a childlike response to something, it normally is a wound from when they were a child because they're reverting to acting the same way.

John: Right. But yeah, and what you said is like, you know, if you feel like your husband's going to boss you around or be like, "You have to do this," you have to go back to why you married this person because I highly doubt he's going to do that. And even in this book, she's not like, "My husband tells me everything I do, and then I do it." That's not what this book is about. This book is about trusting the person that you chose to be with. And that's why a lot of times, even though you say like you're the authority, which you are, you talk about leading, which means leading by example.

Nicole: Exactly. Yeah, that is what you have to do. You have to do that if you are a man in the relationship. You have to do that to your own children because you can't even tell your children, "Do this," and then you're doing something different. They're going to do what you're doing. They're going to do what they see rather than what they're told. So as a man, you have to do the same thing. I'm not saying that your wife is a child, but I'm saying you can't be like, "Oh, you can't go to the club, wife," and then you go to the club. Right? Like, that makes no sense. Then she's not going to take you seriously. She's not going to have respect for you because you're not even, you're telling her to do one thing, and then you're doing the exact thing you said not to do.

John: Exactly. So it's not about like someone bossing you around as a woman. It's about letting him take over the more masculine traits in a relationship, in life in general, which is typically like finances and making big decisions like that and deciding, you know, certain things for the household and things like that. That is what a man does and what he should do. And that allows you more time to do what fills your cup.

Nicole: Right. Because I think also too, going back to the feminine men thing, men, and you've mentioned this before too, men have lost the pride in doing things, in accomplishing things. And I'm not saying like you have to build a six-figure business like that's the only accomplishment that'll make you feel good. It's, they, feminine men don't take pride in their accomplishments.

John: Right. Yeah, and taking care of their family and making sure that everything is taken care of in their household and their finances and all those things. I would say also that a lot of women have the complaint or they believe that their husband is the exception, that he is not capable.

Nicole: Right. And there's two things about that. One is that because I saw it in our comments too when I read one from, and I was like, "That's so insulting." Like, if he saw that, that would be, that you think that he is a child and you have to, you know. So first of all, if you back off and you let him fall, he might fall at first, but you will see that most men will rise to the occasion. You will see the man that you didn't even know was inside there if you let him, if you're actually supporting him and trusting him and not treating him like a child. You may, and give him the responsibility, let him, he may step up. He probably will. Most men will step up. And the second thing is, if you think so little of the person that you're with that you think that they're a child that needs to be taken care of, that they can't handle things on their own, that's probably the most insulting thing. That if he knew that about you, he would probably divorce you. That's a total lack of respect. Like she talks about, it's the worst that you could possibly think about your husband if you respect him.

John: Right. So, that's what she goes into. But yeah, let's go into some of your...

Nicole: Yeah, I have one of the chapters she was talking about how women are trying to help, you know, a lot of times women would be like, "Oh, I'm just trying to help you do this better," or certain things like that. And you know, certain things, yeah, you probably can let go. You don't need to help as much as you think you do. But what we were talking about in the car on the way over here is that I saw this video today that your sister posted, and it was a guy talking about how a lot of times men don't really value the criticism or help from a woman. They only value it from men. And a lot of times, they lose a certain perspective on themselves, the feminine perspective, or the perspective that women view men in. Yeah, and they don't ever really grow in those areas because they're not listening to what women have to say. And in the book, she really does say, basically, like, don't say anything at all to try to help your husband, which a lot of those aspects I don't 100% agree with. I do agree with like, you don't have to say every little thing that pops in your mind. Because I even do that sometimes, and I'm like, "You should really work on that, Nicole." But I also think that there is something beautiful and good about a couple being able to talk to each other about hard things, maybe in each personality or, you know, trauma responses, where you can help each other work through those things. And I think, you know, if you take what she's saying, it kind of sounds like, "Oh, I can never tell my husband something like that," which maybe she isn't necessarily trying to do. And again, maybe it's that black and white where in the beginning, if you're hypermasculine and you've taken over everything, you do need to do that.

Nicole: But I think at a certain point when you've become more surrendered and you've let a lot of things go, you should be able to have an open conversation about certain things. You should be able to help your husband without it being like, "No, you can't say anything, woman." Not that he would say that, but I'm just saying that some men can take it where they'll be like, "No, I don't want to. I don't care what a woman has to say," or even my wife. And other women, sure, yeah, you shouldn't be listening to other women giving you criticism. But the woman you sleep next to every night, if she's like, "Hey, I've noticed that when you get upset, you kind of lash out a little bit," you know? And she talks about in the book too, saying that you're hurt as a woman when something happens rather than blowing up and allowing your emotions to go whatever and be like, "I hate you." Like, don't turn down that road. Turn down the road of, "Ouch, that hurt my feelings when you said that," when your husband says something like that.

John: And I would say on that one, I think, well, there's a couple of things. First of all, is if you tell a man, "Hey, when you get upset, you tend to lash out," that's not the same as what she's talking about there. That's fine, and you should do that, and a man should take that criticism because that's outside of the situation. I think where men get annoyed with it and where it feels like we're being babied or we're not being trusted is in the situation. So, for example, if you're flying on a commercial airline, you don't go and monitor the pilot and say, "Hey, are we going the right direction? Are you sure you want to go through that storm? Do you have enough fuel?" Because he's competent, because you trust him. He's the one flying the plane. So, I think the thing about that is that when a man's doing something, when a man is taking charge of something, let him do his thing. But that doesn't mean that you can't give him criticism on stuff for him to improve things that are hurting you, that are hurting the relationship.

Nicole: Well, she does mean basically everything in general.

John: Yeah, I disagree then with that. And that's why I'm like, because I get it, like if a guy's doing something, let him do the thing. Like, don't jump in because you wouldn't want a man being like, "Hey, you should probably do this." They call that mansplaining, women. And like, women don't like that. So, it's like treating people with mutual respect. But, you know, she is basically saying though, in the book, which is why I was kind of like, "And that," like, don't really say anything.

Nicole: Yeah, and that's not the, you know, as a man, well, I'll say this, you know, to the men out there too, is look, as a man, as a human being, you should try to not give criticism, but you should always accept criticism and value it. At the same time, also as a man, you should always look to your woman for her intuition and insight and show her that you value her feminine perspective. Right? And if you're doing that, if you're seeking it out, she's going to be less likely to offer it up when it's not necessary. Right? And then also, the other piece of it, I would say, is that again, with the context of this book and who she's writing to, a lot of times is that look, if you're a woman who's constantly been nagging your husband and criticizing him, which a lot of wives do, I mean, we've seen marriages like everyone has, knows that this is a very common occurrence, right? Then maybe you do need to be quiet and back off completely for a while.

Nicole: Well, that's why I'm thinking maybe it's she's talking about the extreme. But I just think that she maybe should have added at the end like the maintenance because yeah, there's even a part we've talked about where she's like, "Oh, if your husband wants the kids to do something that sounds a little too dangerous for them, just let him." And I get that. It's like that extreme version or like, you know, totally taking your hands off the reins so that he can feel almost like free to make the mistakes and things like that. And there is a part of that that is true. But I also think like these are your children as well too. And granted, like that's their father, but you're their mother, and you should be able to have a conversation with the father and be like, "I don't think this is the best idea," and here's why.

John: Right, exactly. And you know, men need to realize too that just being like, "Well, I think it's a good idea," is not a good explanation. Because I agree, or I think that if you as a woman are like, "I don't think this is the best idea," and you hear out your husband and he has an actual good explanation for why he wants to do this dangerous thing with your kid, you will be like, "Oh, that makes sense." You won't be like, right. But ultimately, at the end of the day, you still have to trust his judgment even if you disagree with him because that's the whole part of respecting authority. Or, I mean, I think it's different when it comes to him making a decision for himself or even you as a wife. But when you have children involved, I do think, granted the man is still making the decision, but I think he does need to take the wife's side of it into accountability more than he thinks he does because it's not also, women are intuitive.

Nicole: Exactly, and they can sense when something doesn't seem very right. They're not always right about that, right. But at the same time, there's a huge difference between a mom being like a helicopter mom and not letting your kids do anything remotely dangerous, or the dad being like, "Let's go paragliding, kids," and the mom be like, "I don't think that that's the best idea right now where the children are at." And the guy, the dad's like, "It's fine, you know, like it'll be okay. I'll be there." Like, that's not going to make the wife feel one, heard, or feel any less stressed or comforted about the decision. But like I said, if for some reason he explained it, let's use the paragliding thing again, yeah, that he's like, "We're going with professionals. There's going to be professionals there the whole time. The kids said they wanted to go paraglide. They too and I'll to be that more sense."

John: But if a wife can't even say, "Hey, I don't think this is a really good idea," then she's just going to be stressed. She's going to harbor this resentment towards you. And again, in the beginning, maybe it has to be so black and white, you can't say anything. But I think if it's something dangerous, you should be able to say something like that.

Nicole: Yeah, and I agree. I mean, I would say this though. I would say one, you have to approach it in the right way. Right? So, something like, you know.

John: I totally trust you, but I want to bring up my concern if that's alright with you. You know, this is my concern about this right now. A good man should hear that and take that into account and possibly even change the course of his action. He should actually be open to changing his action; otherwise, he's not hearing you. And that's something you have to know. It's not just letting someone tell you something because a lot of people will get into a situation where they're like, "Oh yeah, I'll hear you," and they've already made up their mind, not even listening. That's not listening. So, I think it has to be approached the right way, where the guy still feels like, "I trust you, and ultimately I'm going to trust your judgment at the end, but let me express this right." And then the second thing about it is the frequency, like how often are you pulling this card, right? So, it's like if every little thing that he tries to do or every decision you disagree with, you're now creating a situation where you have to put your opinion in on this thing. That's not really letting someone lead; that's like nagging the commercial pilot like, "Wait a minute, hold on, I see a lot of clouds over that way." It's like, okay, you know, but if it's something really important, then yeah, then I totally agree about that. I just brought it up because she literally mentioned a dangerous situation, and I agree it shouldn't be every single little minute thing, but the dangerous situation with like your children, I didn't necessarily agree with that. And she does mention in a different chapter, choosing your words wisely, which I know on other podcast episodes and stuff that I've talked about, that both men and women should be choosing their words wisely because that really sticks with people. Even when you say "I hate you," even if you were just angry and you didn't mean it, that sticks with somebody. They can't unhear that. Like so many people think that they can just say and do whatever they want when they're upset because they're upset, and they don't care about how it affects other people that they're saying these things to because they're so hurt in the moment that they either don't care what they're doing to other people, or they're like, "Well, I'm hurt, so I can hurt other people," right? And that is the worst way for anyone to be, man or woman. And so, she talks about choosing your words wisely, which, like you said, it is very important to bring up any concerns you have if you're the guy or the girl in the relationship with the proper words, with the proper way to express this because the second you let your emotions get the best of you, no matter who you are, they're going to stop listening, or they're not going to take it seriously, or now you've hurt them, and now they can't get past that to actually focus on the issue that you want. And that's why you have to choose your words in a way where you guys can have an actually constructive conversation about whatever problem that you're having. So, she does mention that in the book, and I do think that's important. And that goes with what I just mentioned, that I don't think you should not say anything when there's things that are seriously bothering you. You should be able to have a conversation, absolutely.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree 100%. Next point, or did you want to...

John: Yeah, just, I mean, you know, the difference between nagging and criticizing and bringing up a valid concern, right? Like, everyone knows the difference. And so, you know, one of them, there's, you know, you got to let go of control, and the other one, it's like, okay, you got to be able to have conversations and communicate. You can't just stuff everything down and be like, "Okay, whatever you say, dear." That's not good when guys do it; it's not good when women do it. It has to be... And she kind of borders on that at times. And again, I know it's because she's dealing with these really masculine women, and she kind of has to really rein them in. So, I get that, but again, I wish she had kind of added in, once you get to that point where you've surrendered and you can have conversations effectively, how to do that and how to maintain that and things. It's more like, don't tell them how to drive, don't, you know, she does mention, tell him how to do the things that he's doing, let him do the thing. Don't pick apart the thing if he's fixing something, don't like point out where he dropped something or, you know, just like, let him be and let him do the thing, you know? But when it comes to something that's a really important thing in your life, yeah, you got to have a conversation. In fact, he should be seeking you out for the conversation because, again, with the hang gliding example, look, if you're a guy, you're going to take your kids to go hang gliding or do something dangerous, and you haven't not asked permission from your wife but consulted with her to say, "Look, I'm going to do this thing. You might not like it, but I've researched it. This is how safe it is. This is, and before I commit to doing this, I would love to get your input on this, just to run this by you to see what you think about it, make sure I'm not crazy, and that this makes sense," right? If you approach it that way as a man, her value, she feels like, and she'll respect you more because you took the time to think about her and consider her. Like, there's a difference between doing what you just said and then asking, "Can we do this?" to your wife because if you're like, "Can we do this?" to her, then she feels like she's the man, and she has the authority, and she's more likely to act like, "No, you can't," or whatever, act like you're another kid. Just trying to... We watched the Mrs. Doubtfire Musical, and the dad kind of acted like a kid to the point where the oldest daughter was like, "I feel more of an adult than my husband." And then, you know, by the end, he realized a lot of stuff, and he, you know, manned up. But it's along the same lines. It's like if you're coming to your wife, and you're like, "Can we do this?" or certain things like that, then she's in the more masculine. But if you take her into consideration, that doesn't take away your authority, that doesn't take away you as the leader. And that's why it's so important you use the word "leader" because a leader takes into consideration the people he's leading. He doesn't just lead people and doesn't think about them or care about them and just be like, "Follow me, don't ask questions." Like, that's not how a leader operates. And as a man in our relationship, I make a lot of decisions without consulting you, like stuff I need to do, buy this thing, or business thing, or investment thing, or whatever, because I got the financial thing. I got that handled. But, for example, if I were going to get a car, and not because of the cost of it, but because you're going to be driving in that car or riding in that car, I'm not just going to go and buy whatever car I want and whatever I think is best. I'm going to talk to you about it because...

John: I want your input on what kind of car we should buy. You see what I'm saying? As a man, you have to understand when your decisions start to affect other people in your family and in your life. They're important, they should be consulted, or their opinion should be solicited, right? Without them having to come and say, "Hey, wait a minute, what are you doing?" So, I think there's that part of it too. But again, I do think that if a woman does follow a lot of the things in this book, the man's more likely to start stepping up and doing those things.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. The next point is she talks about taking care of yourself, which she talks about in a way of, like, it'll also keep you from nagging him, sort of thing. You can kind of let go. But also, we were talking about this in the car, that I feel like it can be hard for women to take time for herself because it feels selfish. Women get conditioned from such a young age to be a good girl and do as you're told, and you know, don't have boundaries and people please so everybody's happy, and don't be too bossy. So, like, we from a very young age are conditioned to not really take the time to do stuff for ourselves. It's a lot of times to do stuff for other people. And then when we become wives, we add a layer on top of that, you know, taking care of your husband, which you should want to do. I'm not saying that you shouldn't want to do that. But then add kids in the mix too, and I feel like kids is where women really lose their identity, and they really lose the taking time for yourself and the self-care because it feels so selfish. That when you have a kid, you're like, "I'm just supposed to focus on this kid. Like, I brought this kid into the world. I'm the person teaching them how to be a human being," and all of these things. And your kids have their own schedule, and they have all these other things, and you're like, "How am I going to fit in this time?" But like we talked about, and I've said from the beginning too, that you have to do as you do on an airplane, put your oxygen mask on before helping others. But I do feel like as a woman, it's harder. It's a harder thing for them to actually do.

John: Right.

Nicole: And I know that men struggle with this as well too. They have to do the same thing. Everybody needs to take the time to do stuff for themselves in order to take care of everyone around them better. But as a woman, since our nature is this nurturing, caring sort of feminine energy, that it's often hard to take the time that you need for yourself. And like I said, when she mentions it, it's good to help you kind of let go, right? Because you're focusing on yourself instead of hyper-focusing on your husband and what he's not doing, right? And things like that. And I know that's why she brings up a lot of it, but I thought that was a good point to make though, for both sides. For both the letting go part, it will help you do that if you're pouring more into your cup and letting him figure out the stuff that he needs to figure out. I'm not saying ignore your husband or don't hang out with him, but, and same if you have kids too, to pour into your cup and do the things that are self-care for you and your alone time, your little hobbies and things like that. You'll be able to pour more into your kids and your husband. So, I thought that was good. And you'll be helping them too, especially if they're boys, to not be a baby when they grow up because they're going to have to do some things on their own. It's like, "Mom needs to take some time, and she needs to go relax in the bathtub for an hour. So, right, go play." Like, you know, like you got to take that time. And the thing about it, what it really fundamentally comes down to, and you know, I've said this before, is that, and a lot of people don't like this, you can't love someone else unless you love yourself first.

John: That's true.

Nicole: You think you're loving other people, but there's resentment behind it because if you don't take time for yourself and you're not taking care of yourself, exactly, if your needs aren't being met, you can be kind on the surface level, but everyone can feel it. They can feel you don't really want to be here, you don't really want to be doing this. Your sacrifice feels like you're trying to be a martyr rather than like, it shouldn't feel like a sacrifice, right? When you're doing good for people and nurturing people, it shouldn't feel like a sacrifice. And if it does feel like a sacrifice, then that probably means that you need to actually make sure your needs are being met first, so it doesn't feel like a sacrifice anymore. I'm not saying that there's never times that you do have to sacrifice for some, you know, but it shouldn't be every day, and it shouldn't be all the time. It shouldn't always feel like, and you definitely do if you have kids, 'cause it's just, it's a part of raising human beings, is that you're going to sacrifice some stuff, but you're totally right that it's a necessary thing because if you don't have your needs met, then you're going to be resenting meeting other people's needs because then you're going to be like, "Okay, well, I can't even do this for myself, or nobody's helping me get my needs met." So then you're resenting your husband, your kids, and they didn't do anything. You're not taking the time that you need. You're not scheduling that into the schedule of the day, or the week, or the month, or whatever you need.

John: Every people pleaser I know is a ticking time bomb.

Nicole: Right, they until they go off, and then, you know, that's true, and then it starts over again. So, okay, another thing that she mentioned in here that I don't agree with is talking to your girlfriends about the problems with your man.

John: Why?

Nicole: And she talks about talking to your girlfriends about surrendering, which I get that 'cause she's like, "Don't tell your husband." Which I can see that, but at the same time, that's also like, it seems kind of a little deceitful, but it's a good thing that you're doing, so you don't need to explain it to him. But, and so I can see where she mentions that, but she also talks about that if you talk to friends who aren't doing this, or you know, they're not surrendering, and they're the type of naggy women, then you're going to kind of get back into that same routine. So even then, it can kind of mess you up to talk to other people. And I'm not saying don't ever talk about anything to your girlfriends about your relationship, like definitely talk about the good things, show your friends how a good relationship can be, but constantly complaining about your man is not a good thing to do to your friends because one, your friends start getting to the point.

John: Where they're like, "Well, why are you even dealing with this?" A lot of times, we vent or complain about the bad things, and we don't talk about the good things. We're so upset and suppressed that we're spewing out the situation in maybe a more dramatic or upsetting way than what actually happened. Or we're assuming things based on the thing that happened, and now we're like, "Oh, he did this, so he probably doesn't like me anymore, or love me, or he's probably going to leave me," or whatever. We start going down this spiral, right? And then your friends are in the position of like, "Uh, do I just say like I'm sorry?" or like, most women are going to be like, "Why are you putting up with that?" And anybody would, if someone came to you and was like, "I'm having a horrible experience," they're going to be like, "Don't do it," right? You know what I mean? So, that's the part I didn't necessarily agree with, of venting your problems to your friends and things like that. I'm not saying don't use your friends as a support system, but just be cautious of how even your parents, though, too. Like, don't vent all your relationship frustrations to your parents or your siblings or your family.

Nicole: Talk to your friends and your family about what you personally are struggling with, not what someone else is doing. Yeah, what they're doing, what that conflict in relationship needs to be resolved in the relationship. No one needs to ever hear anything bad about your spouse or your partner, right? Instead, it's like, "Okay, I'm struggling right now. I'm depressed right now. I'm insecure about this." That's now your problem that someone can help you with, and they're not put in the difficult position of backing you when maybe you don't even need to be backed because you're wrong, right?

John: Exactly. That's hard, too, to be the friend to be like, "Actually, maybe you're the problem." And then that's not going to go over well, yeah. And then it creates such a weird situation when you do resolve the issue, and then it's like, they're still back on page five of the book, and you're on page 500. It's like, "Oh, yeah, we're past that now," but they're still viewing the person you're talking bad about or you did on relation, right? They're not involved. Can't do that. That's so... I agree with you, yeah, 100%.

Nicole: Yeah, that's a good one. And that's like you said, talk about your problem, not the problem with your relationship, and communicate with your partner because the only way the problems within your relationship are going to get solved is in your relationship, not outside of it. And plus, people would give you bad advice, and man, especially, but not us, it can be a lot of...

John: No, well, also, a lot of times, women will get together, too, and know sometimes they're going to come up with some bad ideas together. Men can do the same thing, and it's just like because it becomes like a showing-off type of thing. It's like, "Oh, this is what I would do in that situation." That's not what you would really do, but it's fun to say that because you don't have to deal with the consequences of it, right? So easy to think about it rather than when you're actually in the moment, right? One of the traps was stop reading his mind. Everybody should stop doing that. Every single person should stop trying to read their partner's mind because it just ends up causing more problems in the relationship. And I know women do this a lot more because we're very like FBI. We're like, "He said hey this morning, and it sounded a little off, and I think he's mad at me, and I think we're going to have a fight later." Like, that all came from just a guy saying hey, right, in a different tone. And like, we just made this huge thing out of it. And I feel like guys do this as well, too, not in the way that I just mentioned, but they also try to read their wives' minds or the woman they're with mind or think that the other person thinks that they have to try to read their mind, right? And so, or they'll be like, "Well, why doesn't my husband just know that I want this?" or the husband might be like, "Well, why doesn't my wife just know that I want this to happen today at five o'clock?" Like, it's like no one can know that, right? You have to start taking things at literal face value, especially men, because they are more literal. Like, they're not going to have some sort of ulterior motive thing. Most men just say exactly what they mean. Granted, I'm not saying that men don't ever lie. That's the only thing where men, I feel like, get that sort of twisted is when they lie, but they're not like women where a man will be like, "What's wrong?" and they're like, "Nothing," but the woman inside's like, "Please ask me what else is wrong again 50 times, and then I'll tell you." You know, it's... We need to stop doing all that. Like, we need to just talk about it, yeah, and be open and honest and truthful. And like I said earlier, and you said, too, use the proper words, and you can talk about anything. Well, when we talked about this before, I don't think we did on the podcast, but it's like when you ask a woman what's wrong, as a man, you be asking what's like, you could say the words what's wrong, yeah, and you could mean, "What's wrong with you this time?" right? And that comes across, that's different. Or you can, instead of just saying what's wrong, you can say, "What seems to be troubling you? I really want to understand what you're feeling right now." Yeah, sounds a little corny, but you can whatever variation of that you want, but that is much more likely to not get a response of nothing, right? Because it's because now it seems like you actually care, right?

Nicole: Exactly. That's true. Okay, I only have two more, so I'm going to hurry. We kind of talked about this one, so we don't have to go super in-depth, but she talks about overriding your survival instincts. She's like, "It's okay to be vulnerable, even though it seems scary, where you're like, 'Well, I don't know if he's going to pay the bill on time, and then we're going to have to sit in darkness because our lights got cut off.'" Yeah, but as she mentions in the book, that might happen, but like you said, too, it won't happen as often as you think it might happen. The man will step up and eventually do what needs to get done, but it is scary, especially when you're the one that's been in control, and you're like, "I've made sure this has gotten done, and I know it gets done well," and then you totally give that up, and you have to sit there and be like, internally screaming, like, "Yeah, it's not easy to do." And you're going to want to be like, "No, just let me do it 'cause then you'll know it gets done." It's like when you're in a car with somebody, it can be scarier to be in the passenger seat than driving because you have no control, right? It feels like that as a woman when you give up control when you're used to having control. You're like, "Oh God, like this and this and this could happen."

John: Like you're not really thinking about that when you're driving because you're like, "Oh, I'm in control. I can handle all this stuff." But it's the same exact skill as good parenting. We do this all the time with Sophia. We have to let her want to do it, but she has to suffer consequences, and we can't take them from her. If you do save the day, if you come in and help in those situations, you don't help the person. They're not learning anything. They're learning that you'll jump in and save them. And that's what kids learn too. When that happens, they're like, "Oh, I won't have to ever deal with anything bad because my wife will come in and save me, or my mom will come in and save me, and it's all gravy." And a lot of women too, that don't think as highly of their husbands as they should, you're coming in and save someone who doesn't need saving. Take it from me as a man, I can tell you that there's many times where you're like, "Look, I'm a competent man. I make money at my work. I've been taking care of myself. I can handle myself. I don't need to be babied or saved." Well, a woman would feel just as offended if a man did the same. Like we were talking about mansplaining, plenty of women get just as offended when a man tries to jump in and tell her what to do.

Nicole: Right. I think women might also need to realize, "Let me not do something to him that I wouldn't want done to me," which I feel like is just a good way to live in general. Treat people the way you want to be treated. And definitely, women should be doing that to their husbands. Like, that should be tattooed on their forehead at this point. The last one is let him solve some of your problems. Yes, and I thought this was good, especially as someone who used to try to control, like the women in the book. I was not that extreme. We've never been in that situation, but I think women are afraid still, especially if they're in the masculine, to look incompetent or not be able to do something. Just like asking your husband to open the pickle jar for you. Plenty of women would be like, "No, I can do it," and she'll just sit down there for 30 minutes trying. Or just go ask your husband. Like, your husband feeling like he can help you with something, even if it's opening the pickle jar, even if it's solving one of your small problems or a big problem or whatever problem. Like, you got married to be a team. You should be leaning on him, and in certain aspects, he should be leaning on you. Like you said about the child situation, you should also want to refer to your wife and see how she feels about certain things. So, I thought that was important for especially more masculine, in control women when they're trying to let go. Don't be afraid to lean on your husband. Again, you chose him. You chose him for a reason. If you don't trust his knowledge and his instincts and his way of thinking, then that's a problem you should have addressed way before you got married.

John: Right. And like the book talks about, in general, if you do let go of the control and you practice a lot of the things that she talks about, you can get that dynamic back in your relationship, and it lets you be more free. That's what she talks about. Like letting go, surrendering in general, gives you more freedom. It's not supposed to be this thing of like just do as you're told. It's supposed to be this freedom. That's why in the other book, The Michael Singer book, surrendering to life gives you more freedom because you're allowing it to just be how it's supposed to be. You're not stressed out about things that you don't even have to be stressed out about. You're just allowing life to be what it is, and that takes more effort, and it's harder to do than being in control. Being in control is the easy way, is like the weak way. It's the only way that you can feel like you have control, is trying to control everybody in your life, and you actually have no control over anybody but yourself.

Nicole: Right. So, I don't think she necessarily mentions this, but the whole thing is focus on what you can control, and that's you.

John: Exactly. And you can control all the things that she mentions in this book, and then more. You can control letting go of things that you don't need to hold on to, trying to control things that you don't need to control because you can't. And I think that is a huge thing for women to realize. And that's how you have the biggest influence. And also, the one thing I'd add to is that if you do these things and you start acting this way, if you've lost some attraction for your husband, as a woman, I think she says this in the book too, you'll gain that back. Because how can you be attracted to someone that you're treating like a baby who is not responsible? So, as you back off and start acting this way, you're going to find that now you're attracted to the man again because you let him be a man. And he can step up and do the things he needs to do. He's not being nagged or overshadowed by someone else trying to be in control constantly.

Nicole: And I just wanted to bring up, in the car, actually, you helped me solve a problem. Because I was like, "I don't know what we're going to do, you know, for summertime since our daughter will be home from school. You know, she's a normal kid, and she likes to be online or playing games inside, and I'm like, I don't want her to be constantly inside all summer. What should I do? You know, sometimes when I ask her stuff, she doesn't want to go and do it." And you were like, "You should make it like a scheduled time." And I was just like, "Yes." It instantly relieved the stress that I had, thinking about how am I going to do this with her. And if I hadn't asked you, I would still be stressing about it, and I would still have done it probably the wrong way, still been like asking her, and she would have been like, "No," and I would have been like, "Well, how am I going to do anything?" But by you being like, "Create like a summer schedule," I'm like, "Oh my God." And then you're like, "She does better with that." I'm like, "Yeah, she does. Why didn't I think of that?" So, it was super helpful, and it was refreshing how you responded to it. Because I think a lot of times, women might respond and say, "No, that won't work," or like, "No, that's never going to like, she's not going to do that pattern." And then it's like, you know, when you get that response, you're like, "Okay, well, I guess I shouldn't, you know, when I'm asked for a solution to a problem, I don't."

Nicole: I know what to do now. It's always turned down, right? So, it was great because I felt good being able to do something for you, and you felt good because you got your problem solved. A lot of times, women are resistant to that, and it's not necessary. So, don't resist. But yeah, there's a lot of information in this book, so definitely read it. Like we talked about, it has some good things in it for sure, and it's from the perspective of a woman who's been there. So, you can trust what she's saying. This is empowering for you to be able to actually do something because a lot of relationship books you can read them, and it doesn't mean the guy's going to implement it, you know what I mean? But if you read this and you implement it, now you're in... well, I won't say in control, but you're more in control by not being in control. She mentions that in the book as well, how being surrendered gives you more control than you think it does. So, definitely recommend reading it.

John: Yeah. Alright. We are... well, we do, I guess we could... our thing for the week. It was Saturday, I believe, and I had made pancakes. I thought I made enough based on the box for me, John, and our daughter, but I did not. So, I made her some, and then I made John some, but he was at the gym, and they were ready.

Nicole: And he was like, "Oh, I'm coming home," and the gym's not too far. So, I was sitting there eating the breakfast I made for myself since there wasn't enough pancakes, and I heard him come in the garage, but he didn't come in for like 8 minutes or so. The pancakes were just sitting there. So, he came in, and I was like, you know, it kind of hurt my feelings that you were here and you knew I made you breakfast because I did text you that I made you breakfast, and that you sat in the car. Like, I knew you weren't sitting in there, but that you were here and you knew I had made you food, and that you chose to do something else besides come in. And I know you wanted to defend why you didn't come in, but you didn't, and that was really beneficial to the situation because I felt like you really cared about how it made me feel and didn't try to justify it. Because I knew you weren't just sitting in the car. I knew that you were doing it for some sort of reason, but at the same time, in my mind, I'm like, he knew I made breakfast, and I know he's probably doing something, but he could have scheduled it where he could come inside. Because he knew it'd be different if you didn't know, but that's why it hurt my feelings because I'm like, you knew I'd made it, and it was just nice for you to acknowledge that and how you handled it.

John: And when you said that, you know, my own voice went off in my head because I was like, "Oh, I wasn't even upset. I was just going to explain. I was finishing up recording a video, and so that's why I didn't come in right away." And then I was like, my voice went in my head is like, it doesn't matter why she's upset, and she doesn't want to know why you didn't come in. She only wants to know that you care that you hurt her feelings, and that's the only thing that's important. So, that's all I addressed. I didn't... you know, my mouth was about to say, "Oh, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings," and then I said, "I'll do it next time." And my mouth was about to turn around and say, "Yeah, I could tell that, you know, I was just recording a video in the car," but I was like, "Let's... we have a perfect communication here. Let's not really ruin it, John. Just adding to it will detract, so just leave it at that. If she wants to know what you're doing in the car, she'll ask, 'What were you doing in the car?' Then I could say, 'Oh, well, I was recording a video.' But if she doesn't ask, then we're good." So, yeah. So, yeah, I'm learning, but it's hard. It's hard that your brain wanted to go there, but you didn't, and I appreciated that. But it is very hard for a man to realize that it doesn't matter why she's upset. She doesn't care. She cares that you care that she's upset. That's it, and that you acknowledge it.

Nicole: And that's what she cares about because, like you said, I didn't ask you what you were doing in the car because I already knew it was something that, you know, was business-related or something like that because I know that you wouldn't do that normally. But I also wanted to let you know so that next time if that did happen, you could either record your video earlier or come back and record the rest of it or something like that. This isn't a situation also that happens all the time because normally we're at the gym together and getting breakfast, but it just meant a lot to me that you heard what I was saying, and you didn't defend yourself, and you told me you weren't going to do it again. It wouldn't even matter if it was, "I cut my leg, and I was gushing blood." Still, the thing was that you would still have been upset because you didn't know that, and so still acknowledging that you're upset and that I don't want to make you feel upset is still important. You see what I'm saying? It's like, it doesn't matter, you know, if it's the best reason in the whole world. It doesn't change that you felt a certain way, and that somehow that feeling has to be remedied.

John: Right.

Nicole: Right. So, and it will never be remedied by the best excuse in the world. If I told you the most reasonable reason why your leg was gushing blood out, yeah, of course, you would care about that. What I'm saying, but it doesn't remedy the feeling. It might make you dismiss it and be like, "Okay, what I feel wasn't important right now compared to this," but it doesn't actually resolve it.

John: That's true. The only thing that resolves it is actually acknowledging.

Nicole: Yeah. And do you know how long that conversation was? Like 5 minutes.

John: Yes, and I felt a lot better. But it's hard. It's hard to do as a man because you really have to be like, "Okay, doesn't matter why." Be a voice in your... We're all about why, logic, why, why.

Nicole: So, alright, well, that's it. We're a little over, but that's it for... Yeah, read the book. Definitely recommend it, you know.

John: Yeah, and let us know what you think if you read it.

Nicole: Alright, see you next time. Through every fault, we find our way.