John [00:00:00]: If you were madly in love with someone and they left the toilet seat up, you wouldn't be upset. You would just put it down. There's something else that's going on that makes it so. This becomes a trigger. It's easy to tell people. Surface level problems. You have to actually get beneath that. That's where the real vulnerability is. What does it mean to you? How does it make you feel? Not enough. How does it not make you feel loved? Because if you're getting everything that you needed in the relationship, all your needs were being met at an emotional level. Surface level, things wouldn't bother you. Beyond the perfect we discover through flaws we complete each other Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:54]: That's right.

Brief Speaker [00:00:55]: Yeah.

John [00:00:56]: And today, yeah, we're. We're going to be talking about the. The number one thing that can kill your relationship.

Nicole [00:01:04]: I wonder what people watching this thinks that it is.

John [00:01:07]: Children.

Nicole [00:01:08]: What? I mean, a lot of people that'll fix that relationship.

John [00:01:14]: It's number two, but.

Nicole [00:01:18]: Oh, my gosh.

John [00:01:20]: Yeah. I mean, have kids, it's okay.

Nicole [00:01:23]: Have kids, it's okay.

John [00:01:24]: Yeah, it's okay. We need the population. How would the world. How would we have, you know, how would the human species survive if people didn't?

Nicole [00:01:34]: I mean, I don't think it's going to. I think AI is gonna Terminator us at some point, but that's just my opinion.

John [00:01:41]: But it's. It's actually resentment that is the number one.

Nicole [00:01:46]: The real one.

John [00:01:47]: Yeah.

Brief Speaker [00:01:47]: Yeah.

John [00:01:48]: At least that's, you know, what. What we think that it is. But I think that it's a.

Nicole [00:01:52]: It's a really good is, because I think it encompasses a lot of stuff, like, a lot more than what people think. And even I was thinking about it, you know, people say sometimes that communication is key. Right. They'll say that that's, like, the important thing. And I think that that keeps you from having resentment. So that's why it's key. So I do think that resentment is the number one thing, because once that seeps in, it also paints a totally different picture of the situation than, you know, the one that you had when you first got married or things didn't build up. We talked about it when we first started our podcast, like, sweeping things under the rug. And, like, I don't think we did a whole episode on resentment exactly, but I know that We've talked about, you know, sweeping things under the rug until it's just like this huge mound and you're going to trip over it eventually.

Brief Speaker [00:02:47]: Exactly.

John [00:02:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:47]: But, yeah, I do think that. That I couldn't. I can't think of another thing that would be the most damaging to a relationship.

John [00:02:55]: Yeah. I mean, it. Yeah, it's. I mean, there's things that can damage relationship, but this is the most common thing that ends up right. Like, because we did the episode about the get the honeymoon phase and how it could never end, and basically the formula was to not have resentment. So, you know, the analogy I always like to use is that it's like tooth decay.

Brief Speaker [00:03:14]: Right.

John [00:03:15]: It's like if you don't brush your teeth and go to the dentist, you have tartar that builds up and plaque and over time that causes tooth decay. And, you know, if you. But if you regularly clean it and, you know, get rid of that tartar, get it scraped out of there, then your teeth don't decay. But the same thing with a relationship is like that tartar of the relationship builds up. And from fights, from disagreements, from things that you want that you're not getting, and, you know, things that didn't get resolved. And then over time, as that builds up, it becomes a decay. It ends up decaying the relationship. And so you have to have those regular cleanings, which is the talking it out and bringing up the topics. Right. Because it's like otherwise it festers.

Nicole [00:04:02]: Well. And I think people don't talk about a lot of the things that bother them because they're afraid of the situation that it's going to turn into. It's going to turn into an argument, it's going to turn into a disagreement. But what's worse for your relationship than getting into a disagreement or an argument with your partner is not doing that and harboring the resentment. And then it just builds and builds and builds.

Brief Speaker [00:04:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:24]: And then you're so far into that, by the time you do actually talk about it, you're probably acting in ways that you don't even want to be acting.

Brief Speaker [00:04:34]: Right.

John [00:04:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:35]: And then causing more damage, and then you can get to a point where it might not even be repairable. I think most things are repairable.

John [00:04:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:45]: However, if you let a lot of resentment build up about a lot of things and now you, like, hate this person, essentially, which sounds crazy, but some people get to that point.

John [00:04:54]: Exactly.

Brief Speaker [00:04:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:55]: Then you just kind of give up. You don't even want to fight for the relationship anymore. And instead of talking about it when you first started feeling resentment, and even though it's going to be an uncomfortable conversation, you would have cleaned all that out and it would have been swept under your rug and you would not feel emotionally constipated or whatever you're feeling, right? Because you're still harboring your actual true feelings that you never expressed, or you expressed them, but you guys just argued, and then you didn't want to deal with that. And so you're like, whatever, I'm not dealing with this. And then, so you never actually resolved the problem.

John [00:05:32]: It's just like, I mean, again, the dental, right? Because when you have calculus that builds up on your. Your teeth, it's because you have the soft plaque, right? And then that soft plaque hardens and becomes tartar, which can only now be scraped, right? But if you brush your teeth when you have that soft plaque, it'll come off, right?

Nicole [00:05:57]: Unless you're me and they always got to scrape my fricking teeth no matter what I do.

John [00:06:01]: But it's the same thing as it's when you have the issues, if you discuss them as they're coming up, right? They're easier to get resolved. But when it's built up over time, then that's where all of a sudden, out of nowhere, there is an explosion and all of these hurt feelings come out and in a wrong way, because resentment has. Has set in. And so. And then it's harder to remove. It's harder to fix the relationship. When you now hate your partner because you've been festering and thinking about the ways that they should get in a car accident or whatever, because people do really start to get to that point where they're actually brewing on, like they're thinking their life partner to get in.

Nicole [00:06:45]: A car accident, it happened.

John [00:06:47]: I mean, people get to the point where, think about it. People fall in love, right? They get married, they're in love, and then they have a divorce where they want to tear each other's hearts out and. And see each other dead on the road. Like, that's to that level where they hate each other's guts. So at that point, like something's happened during that process that they've gotten to that extreme. And what I'm saying is that it's resentment is because resentment built up over time turns into hate.

Nicole [00:07:18]: Okay, but here's the thing. Here's, I guess my question because. Yes, but also I feel like with cheating thing. So when a partner cheats, the woman resents him for doing that. And that's also part of it. Because I feel like.

John [00:07:37]: I think that can be the case for sure.

Nicole [00:07:38]: I'm concerned if most people have so much resentment where they wanted the other person to die. Like, that's extreme.

John [00:07:46]: It's pretty common in divorce.

Nicole [00:07:47]: I think I can see where someone's maybe been cheated on.

John [00:07:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:53]: That they would say extreme things like that. Again, I don't think it's acceptable. I don't think it's okay.

Brief Speaker [00:07:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:59]: But I guess that's my question is like, is cheating like how you feel when you've been cheated on? Resentment, Is that more betrayal?

John [00:08:09]: I mean, initially it's betrayal, Right. But then it becomes resentment.

Nicole [00:08:16]: Right. Because you're like, you know, I spent all this time with this person and they did this to me or whatever. Like, you know, or sometimes they're like, why didn't I see this before? Or, yeah, whatever. But, yeah. So maybe I can maybe see someone that's been cheated on, a woman being extreme like that. But if you just have straight up resentment over the years and it's turned into that, you. If you want your partner to die.

Brief Speaker [00:08:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:39]: Please go talk to your partner about your problems and be vulnerable with them.

John [00:08:45]: Yeah. It. Like I said, it gets to the point where people have these horrible divorces and that's where they're. They're at at that point.

Nicole [00:08:53]: But they just never talk to each other. Right?

John [00:08:56]: Yeah. Well, it's because it's like, I think what ends up happening, the progression of it is, is that you have something that annoys you. That's like unresolved things and then that resentment. Because. Okay, when you're in love, right. When you're idealistically in love and you meet someone new and you're like, falling in love, you have an idealistic view of them. So all the quirks that they have, you're like, that's cute, right? It's like, oh, he leaves context on the floor.

Nicole [00:09:28]: I still think that's cute. You.

John [00:09:31]: That's a good thing. That if that changes, if that changes, let me know before it gets to the car crash. Like, burn in a car crash. So, no, but. But you, you have an idealistic view of the things, right? And then what happens is when something happens, your feelings are hurt and it doesn't get resolved, right. Then you're like, oh, look, they make such weird noises when they chew their food. Like, look at her with her smug look on her face. Or what? Like, you start, like, find things or make things up.

Brief Speaker [00:10:03]: Right?

Nicole [00:10:03]: Yeah.

John [00:10:04]: That now annoy you. And then those things just. You're in that zone of resentment, they compound. Exactly. And now everything this person does, and now everything, you're just finding ways now you're talking bad to your friends about the person, and then you're now building up this case against them where you're actually converting it into hatred.

Nicole [00:10:27]: Yeah.

John [00:10:28]: And it compounds, and it gets to a point where it's extreme. It's like, how do you actually hate this person? You hate the way they breathe. It's like you loved everything about them. And it's because that's what resentment does. That's why forgiving, we did a whole episode on forgiving, is such a huge, important thing that you can do as a human being for yourself, not just in a romantic relationship, but just in life and other people. Because if you don't forgive, then you will build resentment, and over time, it will turn into hatred and you'll become a grumpy, hating person.

Nicole [00:11:02]: Right.

Brief Speaker [00:11:03]: Well.

Nicole [00:11:03]: And I think that you have to talk it out, too, until you feel like it's all on the table.

Brief Speaker [00:11:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:09]: Not until. I would even say, not until someone tells you what you want to hear.

Brief Speaker [00:11:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:14]: But until you've speak in your truth and you've put it out there because you can't control how the other person's gonna react.

Brief Speaker [00:11:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:20]: Like, say that. I don't know. Like, okay, we'll use the contact thing. Say I'm like, hey, John, it really bothers me that you leave your contacts everywhere and, like, you're trying, but maybe you forget or. And then that would just probably set me off if I was in that state. However, if I'm, like, told you how I feel, and I can at least acknowledge that you're trying.

Brief Speaker [00:11:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:44]: And if it kept happening, I would have another conversation with you.

Brief Speaker [00:11:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:47]: But I think the thing is that you have to express it and then allow that person to either, like, do the improved version of that or not, and then kind of go from there, rather than basing your resentment on if you get the proper response or not.

Brief Speaker [00:12:08]: Right, Exactly.

John [00:12:09]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:10]: Because, like, obviously your partner should care about you and want to help you. Or maybe there's a reason the contacts. Maybe the dog is taking the contacts, and you know what I mean? Like, you don't know what's going on. This sounds ridiculous, but you have to be open. And a lot of people who have a lot of resentment aren't open. They're just like, I don't like you. Like, you're bothering me. You're annoying me, like you said. Or they're like, why do you keep doing this. Like, that is defensive attack behavior.

Brief Speaker [00:12:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:39]: And to actually get rid of the resentment in, you have to be vulnerable. You have to not.

Brief Speaker [00:12:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:47]: Base how you feel on the other person. Granted, if you're in a relationship, you should feel like your partner cares.

Brief Speaker [00:12:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:55]: And is trying to, but I don't think you should ever even expect it to immediately change. I think you know deep down whether your partner cares and they're making an actual effort.

Brief Speaker [00:13:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:07]: Versus they. They're just kind of blowing you off and they didn't even. They're just telling you what you want to hear, and they just keep doing the same thing.

John [00:13:14]: And. Well, and even in that case, like, if you take the contacts case, it would never actually be about the contacts.

Brief Speaker [00:13:20]: Right?

Nicole [00:13:21]: Right.

John [00:13:21]: So if you're like, hey, you're leaving your contacts on the floor, whatever, and then like, okay, I'll. I'll try to do better. And then. And then it happened, and then you got upset. It wouldn't have even been about the contacts.

Nicole [00:13:36]: Right. You took my thought from my brain. People most of the time just want to feel like you care about them.

John [00:13:44]: Right, Exactly. And. And even when you brought it up, even if you brought it up the first time, it still wouldn't have been about the contacts then.

Brief Speaker [00:13:52]: Right.

John [00:13:52]: It would have been something out context.

Nicole [00:13:54]: Like you didn't care.

John [00:13:55]: Yeah. It represents.

Nicole [00:13:57]: Just left them somewhere.

John [00:13:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:58]: And so, yeah, that's what was going through my mind too, is that that's why you have to just speak your truth and be vulnerable. I'm not saying speak to people in a harsh way or violently being verbally violent.

Brief Speaker [00:14:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:14]: That's not the way to get what you want either.

Brief Speaker [00:14:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:17]: Like, you have to be vulnerable. You have to be open. And you probably just want somebody to feel like they care about you because like you said, it's normally not the thing that people think they're resenting their partner for.

John [00:14:29]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:14:30]: It's normally that they don't feel cared about or loved or whatever it is. So that's why being vulnerable when you express these things, right. If you're emotionally aware enough, you should be able to be like, hey, the contact things bother me because I feel like you don't care. I feel like you're, you know, whatever, but maybe you're not there yet. But if you're like, hey, this bothers me, like, whatever, and you still try to explain it in a vulnerable way, not an attacking way.

Brief Speaker [00:14:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:59]: Your partner is way more likely to respond to you back in a vulnerable and caring way. I mean you got married or you're in a relationship for a reason. Your partner should care about you and you should care about your partner.

Brief Speaker [00:15:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:13]: So even when you allow the resentment to build up where you're treating your partner poorly, you're not caring about them, just like you feel like they're not caring about you. And a lot of people do the tit for tat thing. And honestly, the tit for tat thing is not good. No, it's really not. Because you have to realize that you have to do things based on who you are, not on how people treat you.

Brief Speaker [00:15:40]: Right.

John [00:15:40]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:15:40]: Because you'll always also feel like you don't even really know who you are if you other people's actions dictate what you do. Now, I'm not saying that you can't, you know, change certain behavior. Maybe you don't do as much or you don't worry about the contacts. You allow him to, like, figure it out, whatever. I'm not saying you can't change certain things like that. But you should never allow somebody, if they're talking poorly to you, to be like, well, I'm going to talk poorly to them.

John [00:16:11]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:16:11]: The better thing is to be like, I'm not going to continue this conversation. Have a boundary, Be kind and have a boundary. And so even though it's scary to even get into a conversation, because a lot of people have this resentment where they hate each other. Right?

Brief Speaker [00:16:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:28]: But they're still afraid to actually talk to each other.

Brief Speaker [00:16:30]: Right.

John [00:16:30]: And to really talk. And that's the thing. It's like, because you have to dig below the issue. Because. Because when we're talking about doing the deep cleaning, because we like, oh, well, I do talk, or whatever, I brought up the subject. It's like you might not even realize what it is for you because if you're like, I keep on telling him about the contacts again, then it's like, well, yeah, but what? There's something deeper than that. Why did it even annoy you in the first place? If you were madly in love with someone and they left the toilet seat up, you wouldn't be upset. You would just think that's silly. Like you would just put it down.

Nicole [00:17:03]: Fell in the toilet.

Brief Speaker [00:17:03]: Right? Right.

John [00:17:05]: But you would just put it down. You know what I'm saying? You wouldn't be upset. Right. It's like there's something else that's going on that makes it so this becomes a trigger and you have to actually get beneath that, which. That's where the real vulnerability is. Because it's easy to tell people surface level problems and say, I want you to do this, or you're upsetting me because you're doing this. But that's not. That's not the real vulnerable heart level problem. It's like, what is that doing to you? What does it mean to you? How does it make you feel? Not enough? How does it not make you feel loved? How are these things happening that you're not getting in the relationship? Because if you're getting everything that you needed in the relationship, all your needs were being met at an emotional level, then surface level things wouldn't bother you. Like, you, you know, you feel fine. Like taking care of them. Like, doing. They leave something on the floor, picking it up, you know, like, there's something that's going on always underneath, and that's what you have to dig down and figure out. And. And it goes both ways because when you're presenting a problem, you have to think about, okay, well, what is this? What am I actually. How can I actually vulnerably present what's actually happening? And then also when you're on the other side of it and you're getting some kind of thing that might seem ridiculous to you, it's like, well, why is this. Why is this bothering my partner so much? It's because what is underneath that? It's not what they're saying. And if you can figure out, oh, well, like, even you can ask some questions, we'll do some sales questions. It's like, oh, so when I leave the contacts on the floor, what.

Brief Speaker [00:18:42]: What.

John [00:18:43]: What is. What does that do to you? Like, how, how do you feel about that? Like, what. What happens when you see this?

Nicole [00:18:49]: Well, you don't even have to do this little thing right here. Because when you said the thing about the toilet seat.

John [00:18:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:55]: I agree with you.

John [00:18:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:56]: I think that if you did it a few times, it would not be a big deal.

Brief Speaker [00:18:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:00]: But I think even I would feel like you didn't, like, care about me also using the bathroom if you did that consistently.

Brief Speaker [00:19:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:10]: And that doesn't even happen. But I'm just thinking about it, like when you said that, it's like, it does kind of feel. I had this feeling of, like, it does feel kind of inconsiderate if it's every single time. You know what I mean? Because, like, it'd be different if I could use the bathroom in that state.

John [00:19:26]: I mean, you can. It's just hard to know.

Nicole [00:19:28]: I'm not going to. And please don't make me attempt But I think that's the thing, right? It's like, I cannot use the toilet like this. So it does feel inconsiderate. You know what I mean? I mean like if it constantly happened now, if it happened every once in a while. But I mean, like even I had that reaction. You don't even do this thing. But it's like even thinking about that. Thinking about if some. If like you did that constantly. And then I'm telling you right now that I would feel like you didn't. You weren't being considerate of me. And I would feel like you didn't care about how you're leaving things.

John [00:20:01]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:03]: That I also use.

John [00:20:04]: And then you. And then you tell me about it.

Nicole [00:20:07]: Right?

John [00:20:07]: And then I still don't do it. And now it's compound. Now how do you feel now you.

Nicole [00:20:11]: Feel like I feel like you abs. You don't. It wasn't even just the toilet. You just really don't care about me, right?

John [00:20:16]: Yeah. Now I'm ignoring the words that you're.

Nicole [00:20:18]: Saying, like, right, listening.

John [00:20:20]: I don't actually care about things that you're right. So. So then it becomes another issue compounded on top of that. Whereas, like, what is the core issue?

Brief Speaker [00:20:29]: Right?

John [00:20:30]: Because it's like if you get to the core issue and it. And it's really like with the toilet seat, in that case, it would be something like it feels like you're. You're not considering me. Like, I must not be the number one in your life if your thoughts aren't enough about me to think when you're doing something. Like, how can I, right?

Nicole [00:20:52]: And you're telling me I'm number one. But it's like the toilet says other.

John [00:20:55]: I'm not on your mind.

Nicole [00:20:56]: Sounds ridiculous, right? But this is real life. Like, these are the things that bother people. And like maybe it's more so women with some of these things. But men have the same sort of things where they don't feel considered or they don't feel desired or they don't feel whatever's important to them. And it might seem little to a woman. This toilet seam thing might sound stupid to men, right? But they have things that a woman would be like, oh, that sounds ridiculous. But you. It doesn't matter. Like you should care, right?

John [00:21:24]: And if you talk about it, then you can get to the point because.

Nicole [00:21:27]: Right.

John [00:21:28]: Is it because in your mind, you know, you might be like, oh, he. He doesn't leave, put the toilet seat down because he doesn't consider me. But it might be that he's just forgetful or like just an idiot.

Brief Speaker [00:21:40]: Right?

John [00:21:41]: And so if you have the conversation, then you can determine which one it is. And if it's like, if the reassurance is there to say, oh wow, I like, I really don't mean to do that. I no way want to do that. Like, I literally just forget. But I will now make it a point to not forget that. Then that, that solves the problem at the deeper ish. It actually cleans the plaque off. Because. Because the issue wasn't the toilet seat. It was the deeper thing of like, why is this like. And the assumption about why that behavior was happening, which made. Made you feel insecure, it made you feel not enough. Because everything always comes down to one of those things that, that we feel insecure, we don't feel enough. And it's like, this is just, you know, how we're seeing this in the world. And then when you get that reassurance, oh no, you are enough. Like, you know, then, then, then it resolves the issues, but. Right, but it has to be resolved at that deep level. Nothing is ever surface level.

Nicole [00:22:39]: Yeah. And when you have very intimate relationships, like when you're married, when you're in a relationship and you live together and all those things, like little things like that are going to pop up more and mean more than they probably did. When you guys lived on your own, you didn't have to worry about toilet seats and things like that. You know what I mean? So it's normal for little things like that to pop up and you still have to talk about them.

Brief Speaker [00:23:08]: Right?

Nicole [00:23:08]: Like, no matter how minuscule it seems, if it's bothered you to the point where you're bordering on resentment, right. You should talk about it immediately.

John [00:23:16]: Exactly. And that's the key, right, Is talking.

Nicole [00:23:18]: Like, don't be like, oh, this toilet seat thing really annoys me. But like, am I really gonna start a fight over toilet seat? Like now you've just convinced yourself out of actually solving your own problem because you're like, this is dumb. And like he's. And the guy might be like, it's dumb. But if he's like this is dumb.

Brief Speaker [00:23:36]: Right?

Nicole [00:23:37]: Then you also now know that you feel right, very much unimportant or whatever those deep seated things are.

John [00:23:45]: You can start the conversation with this is dumb. But I feel this way. Like, I can't help that I feel this way. I know it's dumb, I know it's not a big deal, but this is where I think it's coming from.

Nicole [00:23:56]: Yeah.

John [00:23:57]: Like I'M not blaming you for anything. I'm not saying you're doing anything intentionally, but I just have to let you know how I feel because I don't want it to be something that I hold against you or that I, you know, that, like, I keep on thinking about in my mind. Can you help me with.

Nicole [00:24:11]: You still might not understand. No. Send them to John.

John [00:24:14]: And you're not always. You can't. That's the thing is, like, you have to be brave in your vulnerability.

Nicole [00:24:20]: Yeah.

John [00:24:21]: Right. Because you're not always going to get the. The reaction that you want because if you're only going to get a positive response, it wouldn't take courage to be vulnerable.

Brief Speaker [00:24:29]: Right.

John [00:24:30]: And so you have to. It has to be enough that you've done the right thing, that you've put yourself out there. And that actually, like we talked about before, it makes you invulnerable. In other episodes we talked about, vulnerability makes you invulnerable because when you're really, really willing to put it all out there and you don't have an expectation of how the other person's going to respond or the outcome, then there's nothing that's going to harm you in that. And so you can really put that out there. But. But that's what, you know, I think a lot of people don't do it because they're like, just like you said, oh, am I really going to start a fight over this. This thing? It's like, start a fight now potentially, which you don't have to fight. You don't have to engage in a fight, but potentially start a fight now in order to save a relationship in.

Nicole [00:25:13]: The long term, to save the destruction of your relationship.

John [00:25:16]: Because it will destroy. Because that one little thing that's bothering you will. Will grow, you know, the root of bitterness, like that bitterness plant will grow into. Now, this other thing annoys you and this other thing and this other thing. And it's like, all these things will build up to the point where it's like fiery car crash.

Nicole [00:25:34]: Yeah.

John [00:25:35]: Fantasy. Well.

Nicole [00:25:35]: And if we actually talk about it, like, will use. Continue to use the toilet seat thing. But if you actually talk about that.

Brief Speaker [00:25:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:42]: And your husband or whatever's like, I'm really sorry, I just, like, forget, but I'm going to try. And you believe him. And like I said, he's like, maybe he still does it sometimes, but he does it. He puts it down more often now.

Brief Speaker [00:25:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:55]: That will also help you have a more secure relationship. And you might not feel attached to the toilet seat anymore. You know what I mean? You might not see the toilet seat up and be like, oh, he doesn't care about me.

Brief Speaker [00:26:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:06]: If anything, you'll be like, oh, I see, he's trying. He forgot this time and just put it down.

Brief Speaker [00:26:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:11]: And like we said in the beginning that if it's ever happening, every so often but you feel like your partner really cares and he's really, you know, listen to you and his action, like he's doing it more where he's putting it down.

John [00:26:24]: Yeah, he's just got dementia going to.

Nicole [00:26:25]: Bother you as much. You know what I mean? So will also help. I think people are afraid it's going to mess up their relationship to bring up things that bother them, but it actually gives them a more secure relationship.

John [00:26:37]: And it becomes a real relationship. Because if you're building the relationship on a weak foundation, a false foundation that is easily can crumble because it's not how you really feel. It's not the real issues. Then you're creating something, a structure on something that has a weak foundation. And so, yeah, when you're talking about the things that actually are matter, like mean things to you or meaningful to you, then it's real. It's real talk. It's. This is how I feel. This is what upsets me. This is how I feel insecure. These are my actual vulnerabilities, which it always comes down to. Vulnerabilities. Right. That's what it is. It's like this. Like you're bearing yourself bare before your partner and you're both doing this. And people don't like it. Normally when you say to someone, this is how you've hurt me.

Nicole [00:27:28]: Right. They're going to defend themselves.

John [00:27:30]: Their response is to run away or to beat you.

Nicole [00:27:34]: Like, because it's horrible if you say it like that. You know what I mean?

John [00:27:38]: Because that's what they. Because that's our human response.

Nicole [00:27:40]: Yeah, but you have to fight or flight.

John [00:27:42]: You have to walk through that and also empathize with them with their human response, knowing that you have that exact same human response and realize that that's why you can't have the expectation on it. It's like you have the vulnerability, they react negatively to it. You react to their negative reaction with compassion and understanding and continuing to be vulnerable, that now they feel safe. Like, it's like. Because what happens is when you tell someone how they've hurt you, to the other person, it feels like an attack. It feels like an attack on their character. It feels like. Like you're cornering them. Right. It feels like that. But when you, when you are vulnerable and tell someone how they hurt you and then they react like they do, and then you continue to make it still safe for them to be like, I'm. I understand that you're like, you don't. Like this is uncomfortable for you, but this is still the truth. And I'm not going to get upset at you just because you have a negative reaction to this. Like, I. Like this is still the truth, then they feel so.

Nicole [00:28:47]: Depends on how much.

John [00:28:48]: Depends on how much.

Nicole [00:28:49]: Should have a boundary. If someone's like, yelling at you for sure. And also, you do run the risk of steamrolling, Right. I don't think that's okay. I think, like, if you come to somebody vulnerable and they're like, you hurt me for saying this thing, that's steamrolling.

Brief Speaker [00:29:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:03]: And so I agree with you that you can still be compassionate and be like, hey, I understand, like, it's hard to hear things like this, but I love you.

John [00:29:11]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:29:11]: Not saying I don't want to be with you, but if they continue down that path and then try to just be like, no, you hurt me, and then now it goes that way, then you should probably have a boundary and be like, okay, we need to talk about this at another time.

Brief Speaker [00:29:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:23]: When you can talk more calmly.

John [00:29:25]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:29:26]: But, like, you can still have boundaries. And like you said, you can still empathize. And honestly, people in relationships should reflect on the fact that they've come to their partner and told their partner that they've been hurt by them before.

Brief Speaker [00:29:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:43]: And the. And vice versa. So you know that you've also hurt your partner. So if you just start from a vulnerable place in general and not allow someone being vulnerable and telling you things to hit your ego, especially if you're in a relationship, like, you chose to spend the rest of your life together.

Brief Speaker [00:30:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:03]: And if you meant that commitment, which everybody who makes it should.

Brief Speaker [00:30:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:07]: Then it should be safe to talk about even.

John [00:30:11]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:30:12]: Hurting each other. And it's not easy. We've been in situations where we've hurt each other and we've got defensive and. But now we're in a totally different place. Knock on wood. We're not going to come back with any more things. But. But no, I think we've learned this. And me especially, like, I'm coming here really talking about all this and being vulnerable because I was opposite of this. Right. Like, and I took everything personally and it was really hard to hear how I've hurt you. And then I like beat myself up for hurting you, but then I also beat you up for making me feel bad, like the shame. And it just did absolutely nothing except made us talk for eight hours. But you've done the same thing too. But it's like. And like that's the human part of it, right? But it's like when you really care about each other, like we both do, we both also have learned to care about each other in order to respond better to each other.

John [00:31:06]: But was it helpful to you when you reacted in a negative way to my sharing? No, the hurt.

Nicole [00:31:13]: But your mind thinks it is.

John [00:31:15]: Well, no, but was it helpful to you when I started holding space for you, even when you're reacting in a negative way, to understand why you're reacting that way and not to think you're a bad person for reacting that way? You see what I'm saying? That helps you to now to feel safe enough to actually not react that way in the future. So when. That's what I'm saying is obviously there's limits to it. Like you said, you have to have boundaries. But one things that clicked for me also was like, okay, if I'm sharing something with you that is vulnerable, how I'm hurt and you're reacting with the beat or runaway reaction, instead of me getting more upset about that if I can. When what clicked for me was start being like, oh, I get what's happening here. Like, it's okay, it's. I understand this response. Like, it's not okay to continue to do it, but I'm not more upset by this. Like, this is a normal response, which that has helped.

Nicole [00:32:10]: But I think honestly the thing that helped the most for me was that when you said something about me, it. I had to detach from the fact that I thought that that meant you didn't want to be with me.

Brief Speaker [00:32:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:23]: I thought that that meant that if you were telling me that I hurt you, you didn't want to be with me anymore, and that you were just starting off the conversation with how I hurt you? And then the end was going to be, we're not doing this anymore. Even if it was something min, right? That's where my head went. And so I would be like, no, I gotta fight, you know, like, I didn't do that or like, whatever. But when I got rid of that, where I was like, right, he's hurt me and I've hurt him and we're still together. This doesn't have to mean when he's hurt, he's not gonna Want to be with me. And I think that was the biggest thing. And I think maybe that's a big thing for a lot of people. So hopefully also anyone listening to this, if they feel like they struggle with what I was talking about, detaching from that, like, you know, your relationship, I know it would take a lot. A lot. I don't even know what kind of craziness it would take for you and I to not be together.

Brief Speaker [00:33:18]: Right.

John [00:33:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:18]: And so if I can not, like, think of the worst case scenario when you're just coming to me about something, then it will even more so prevent that from ever, ever happening. If that makes sense.

John [00:33:32]: If you get caught stealing and the price for stealing is the death penalty, you're gonna lie 100 of the time when they ask you to just steal.

Nicole [00:33:40]: Right?

John [00:33:41]: Right. Like that's what's gonna happen. If you feel like it's the death penalty.

Nicole [00:33:44]: Right.

John [00:33:45]: Then you're going to lie, you're going to defend yourself. You're going to pretend, you know what.

Nicole [00:33:48]: I'm saying, like, it's the worst thing that could possibly happen to you. Yeah. You're not.

John [00:33:51]: That's why.

Nicole [00:33:52]: Close to that, it has to be.

John [00:33:53]: Like, yes, in your mind, you have to be like, okay, it's not the death penalty, but also your partner also has to be like, look, it's not that. Like, I'm just. I'm letting you know this, but I'm not using this to beat you up.

Nicole [00:34:03]: Right.

John [00:34:04]: Because if it's like, okay, fix this.

Nicole [00:34:05]: I'm telling you this so we can fix it. Not to punish you or threaten to leave you.

John [00:34:11]: Like, now you admitted you did wrong. Now I changed the way I feel about you.

Nicole [00:34:14]: Right, Right.

John [00:34:15]: That's the right. See, that's the thing.

Nicole [00:34:17]: Some people's brains do that. Mental gymnastics, minds.

John [00:34:20]: But that's why it's helpful if you're dealing with someone who's struggling with that, which we all do at times, is to have. Have a little more patience for their reaction because they probably feel like it's the death penalty and they just got caught stealing and you just told them they got. I have videotape evidence of you stealing.

Nicole [00:34:37]: Right, Right.

John [00:34:37]: And so if you understand that, then you have to, like, back them off and be like, but it doesn't matter. Like, I'm not even upset that. Like, I'm not even holding it against you that you did this. That I'm letting you know that I'm hurt, but I'm only letting you know so that we can resolve it. Not Because I want to hold this against you. Or that if you admit it, that I'm going to be like, oh, see, you're such a bad person.

Nicole [00:34:58]: Right.

John [00:34:58]: And then that makes it easier for them to be like, oh, okay, like, let's resolve this thing.

Nicole [00:35:03]: Yeah. No, And I think some people might be so far in resentment though, where it might get a little more messy. And some people might be like, CEO told you or whatever if you've gotten down that road.

Brief Speaker [00:35:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:13]: But once you clean out all the stuff from under your rug, you can get to the point like we're talking about, where even if something little comes up, you immediately talk about it. And so you're always got a nice flat rug. There's never a lump under there.

John [00:35:27]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:28]: Always flat.

John [00:35:29]: And you get understanding the more that you go through these exercises, even though it might feel like, oh, I'm not going to make a big deal of this little thing and even talk about.

Nicole [00:35:37]: It, which I still do that sometimes.

John [00:35:40]: Well, and we had kind of an instance the other night where, you know, with, with our daughter, like there, you know, you had some feelings about some of the things that were said in the car and how things. And I was like, just tell me how it is. Right. You know what I mean? And you told me I didn't want.

Nicole [00:35:55]: Also you to be offended. Like, I didn't trust your. That's where it was really, like, complicated. Because I didn't want you to be offended by my feelings or like my opinions.

John [00:36:06]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:36:07]: And so it was like I was like, no, I probably shouldn't.

John [00:36:11]: Yeah. In the past that would have caused a big blow up because I would have been offended by you, like, judging my parenting. And you would have been upset because you can't express how you're feeling without being attacked. You know, that would have been the past. But we both, I think, have come to a point where we both understand each other well enough that when you're saying that, I know that you're not criticizing my parenting, it's just, you're just expressing how you feel about things and want to give me your perspective.

Nicole [00:36:39]: Yeah.

John [00:36:40]: And then I'm able to listen to you with that. And now you feel. And you're able to feel safe enough to express those things and handle that.

Nicole [00:36:46]: So we still even do it. I do it, but we.

John [00:36:50]: But we handle it. But it. But you know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:36:52]: Like, like that it's a slippery slope. And it's like you said, even that I was like, this isn't a big deal. It's just my opinion. Like, he's the one that made the decision. I don't want to offend him by what he said, but if he knew this, maybe he would understand my perspective.

John [00:37:09]: But you had enough understanding about me from our previous discussions to open up. Like, I knew that something was bothering you, so I knew to probe for it. And then you opened up the conversation about what was bothering you with. I don't want to come across as I'm criticizing you or I forget exactly what you said, but you knew enough about me to open up with that, which made it a lot easier because. And that only came from us having these conversations.

Brief Speaker [00:37:39]: Right.

John [00:37:39]: And so. And then I knew enough about you that I know you don't mean harm, that you're not trying to judge me, that, like, I already know it even before you say it.

Nicole [00:37:47]: Yeah.

John [00:37:47]: That I could listen to it and hear it and we could have a discussion about it instead of a fight about.

Nicole [00:37:55]: About it. I guess this is our end segment in the middle.

John [00:37:58]: Yeah. I mean. Yeah. But I think that that's the key, is that, like. And it's happened a lot of times. I mean, I recognize that a lot of times where there'll be something that would have been the spark of an argument, but it's like, you understand me and I understand you, that you immediately, like, shift gears or I'll shift gears because we're. We're both have understanding of each other's intentions right now. Whereas before we didn't have an understanding of each other's intentions. We assume the worst.

Nicole [00:38:28]: Right.

John [00:38:28]: But now it's like, I forget what happened. Like, just little things happen. And we'll, like. You'll say something maybe in a way that I might perceive as rude, but then I'll know how to approach how to say that. And then. Or the. You'll even just back it off and. Or, you know, like. Or the same thing. Like, I'll say something to you and you'll respond in a way that prevents it from going to, you know, the.

Nicole [00:38:55]: I think that goes back to, like, even if accidents still happen and the thing that you're resentful of still happens, you can tell if your partner cares or not, like you said. And we've made little adjustments because we do care about each other. And you can tell that we do because we do try to be the best for each other. Are we always perfect? No, obviously not. We still do the same things. I'm still making mistakes and. But I know that you care about me.

John [00:39:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:23]: And if I'm hurt by something because I feel like you don't care about me. I can talk to you, and then we can figure it out. But I know that you do care about me because of even how our interactions, like you just said, have changed. And so that's why people, especially if you have a lot of resentment, I mean, it's going to be really hard because you're going to have a lot of stuff to talk about.

Brief Speaker [00:39:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:46]: It's not impossible, but if you're at. If you're pretty far down the resentment lane, you got a lot to talk about.

John [00:39:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:52]: And you got to be vulnerable, and you got to talk about it all.

Brief Speaker [00:39:55]: Yeah.

John [00:39:56]: It might take you a long time.

Nicole [00:39:57]: Yeah. Not in one sitting. You got to talk about it all. And you have to figure out, Right. You know, where this came from. You guys started, like you said, in the honeymoon phase.

Brief Speaker [00:40:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:11]: Everyone started out where they really loved each other or they wouldn't have gotten married. Like, if you're married, or they wouldn't be together for a long time. You know what I mean? So you have to figure out where along the way you guys have gone astray from that. Because even though. Yes. That is, like, the ideal version, and you don't really know the person 100. Maybe you still do.

Brief Speaker [00:40:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:35]: You still knew them enough to marry them or to be with them for three years. Like, that's. That's a big deal. So where along the way, what happened? What feelings have you held on to and allowed to fester inside of you that has gotten you away from here? And then you have to talk about all those things, and even if they're stupid, like you said, you could be like. Like, this might sound stupid, but when you, you know, drove your bicycle way ahead of me and left me behind, I felt like you didn't care about me.

Brief Speaker [00:41:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:05]: And he might be like, I do care. I'm just going fast. Like, he might not really understand.

John [00:41:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:11]: But if you're vulnerable and you're like, I understand that maybe you didn't. Maybe you just wanted to go fast. I understand that. But it made me feel this way.

John [00:41:18]: It can even be little stupid things like that build up in your head. Like sometimes it's like you could be something stupid. Like, well, when I sat on the couch, you didn't put your arm around me or something, and it's like. And then now you're counting it every time, and you're like, oh, look, see it happen again. Look. It must be an intentional thing. And it's like, it was Just an oversight.

Nicole [00:41:37]: Yeah.

John [00:41:38]: You know, but you could have addressed it, right? And instead now you've built up this entire narrative, this story in your head about why this is happening. And, like, look, you're doing it again on purpose. And it's like, now you've gotten so far into this spot when it could. You could have just been like, okay, this is a silly thing. It literally just was in your head, but for your own insecurity, made you, like, come up with a story, but didn't just talk about the story. And it's like, this is what. How I felt, and then this is.

Nicole [00:42:05]: What told me was happening.

John [00:42:08]: Yeah. And it's so funny, though, because it is such a destroyer of relationship. Because even, like, when we were. When we were researching for this episode to, like, figure out what episode we should do, record a podcast on where you're reading. You were reading a Reddit thread, and the lady was talking about their. Their sex life with her. Her. The. The guy that she was going to marry, that they'd been in a relationship for a long time, and how he wasn't putting in the effort, like, like learning. And, And. And you. That whole story reeked of resentment, right. That had built. She wasn't even gonna marry him. Yeah, right. Because, like. And she said their relationship was wonderful, right? Like, perfect relationship, great guy, all these positive attributes. She admires him, respects him, but one little aspect, right, that she. And she did try to talk to him about it, but probably not. She tried to talk to him at the mechanical issue, but not how it makes her feel issue. She didn't go deep enough. That was probably really the problem because we didn't get the whole, whole story. It was long enough. But she talked about, like, she told him, gave him videos and techniques and stuff like that, and it doesn't seem like he's applying it or really trying, but that's. That's the surface, and that's what most people have discussions about, and that's why it doesn't resolve. The real resentment was coming from what did that. The fact that he wasn't doing those things. What did that mean to her? What did it say about how he values her as a person?

Nicole [00:43:34]: Well, she said she didn't feel desired and something else, because, yeah, like you said. But she probably didn't say those things to him, like you said. She probably didn't say, hey, this makes me feel not desirable. You know, like, you're not really into it or whatever. Because, yeah, she seemed like the intimacy part of their relationship was very not good.

John [00:43:58]: Because I'll have, I'll have coaching clients that will talk to me about their, their wife for their, you know, their girlfriend or whatever. And the things that are. And I'm like, don't tell me, tell her.

Nicole [00:44:07]: Right?

John [00:44:08]: Yeah, it's like, yeah, I get it and it makes sense. But this is, the problem is, is that you're not expressing this and why. And guys more so. Well, I don't know. I feel like, because I coach guys, maybe, I feel like that is that guys don't. They want to be peacemakers, so they just want peace. You ask a guy what he wants, he says, I want peace.

Brief Speaker [00:44:29]: Right?

John [00:44:29]: And it's like, you can have peace, but the price of peace is like the long term death of the relationship. Like, you have to have war sometimes.

Nicole [00:44:41]: In order to get peace. When you avoid things that you think are gonna take the peace away, you just make it more chaotic, actually.

John [00:44:49]: Because he's like, if I talk about this, if I bring this up or bring how I feel about this, she's gonna react this way and be upset or whatever, and it's just gonna ruin the night or ruin the. And it's like, yeah, but let it be ruined. But even when you bring, you don't have to engage in a fight. You can bring up the things that are vulnerable to you. And sometimes, look, you bring up something that's in a vulnerable way. Your partner, because they feel attacked, because they hurt you, responds negatively, they run away or they attack you, and then you just let it sit.

Nicole [00:45:20]: Yeah.

John [00:45:20]: And then a day later, they really think about it because you didn't engage back and now justify their actions. Then they're like, oh, then they start to feel guilty, then they apologize, then they actually are open to listen because they got to get their initial reaction out.

Nicole [00:45:36]: Right.

John [00:45:36]: And that some, you know, that's sometimes how it has to go. But if you're just afraid of that initial reaction and you're like, oh, I can't talk to them, I can't, then you're just going to, you're going to build the resentment because there's no other. There has to be an avenue. And talking to your friends and stuff, that's also bad, right? Like, you can talk and ask for advice, but you have to resolve, you.

Nicole [00:45:57]: Have to talk about the actual thing. You can't just talk about the thing to other people and then be like, oh, oh, I'm better now. Because you're not.

John [00:46:03]: Yeah, yeah, you've just, you've just, you've taken the, the pressure cooker, and you've released some steam from it, but it's still under pressure.

Nicole [00:46:11]: Yeah.

John [00:46:11]: Like that you, you know, like, you. It's. It's made it so that it's not going to explode right now, but you haven't resolved the thing that there's heat that's heating up the liquid. Like, you got to turn off the heat at the source. You can't just relieve the pressure every once in a while.

Nicole [00:46:25]: Well, and also, it kind of goes back to what I said in the beginning that you shouldn't even explain. Expect much from your partner when you're bringing things up that bother you. You should just be vulnerable, and that should be enough for you. Like, if you did the right thing, you came to them vulnerably and you didn't attack them, you didn't treat them poorly, you weren't like, threatening them or whatever, you did the right thing and they're not responding well. Like you said, don't interact with them. Be like, we can talk about this when you can, you know, talk to me in a respectful way.

Brief Speaker [00:46:57]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:58]: And that shouldn't cause a problem because you should know that you did the right thing.

Brief Speaker [00:47:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:02]: And right now, your partner's not able to meet you at the same place, which you deserve.

Brief Speaker [00:47:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:07]: When you're coming from, if you have the extra willpower to be able to try to bring them to where you are, you can try.

Brief Speaker [00:47:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:16]: But if you don't, if you feel like you're going to get sucked in and you're going to yell and like you said, stoop down to the same level and then you're fighting fire with fire and don't engage, but know that you were vulnerable.

Brief Speaker [00:47:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:28]: You still even empathize with them or was like, you know, I love you. I'm not trying to hurt you by telling you this.

Brief Speaker [00:47:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:34]: I'm trying to resolve this. And they still can't act. Right. Then you need to let them have a moment and have your boundary and be like, we can talk when you can talk respectfully.

John [00:47:43]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:47:44]: And know that you did the right thing. Like, you have to have. That's why it still has to come from you being confident in yourself.

Brief Speaker [00:47:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:52]: And if you have a lot of resentment, that's going to be really hard.

Brief Speaker [00:47:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:55]: Like, if you're really far down the line, it's going to be really hard to be vulnerable and not yell and not be like, it's all your fault.

Brief Speaker [00:48:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:03]: And all the things that are just going to get you into an actual attack.

Brief Speaker [00:48:07]: Well.

John [00:48:07]: And It. And it's how you present it.

Brief Speaker [00:48:09]: Right.

John [00:48:09]: Because also, the big thing to understand is that no one ever hurts you. You are only capable of hurting yourself. You're responsible for your own feelings. And so it doesn't mean that people can't do things that are not good or that are not considerate. But. But when you present it, if you take ownership of your own feelings and realize that you hurt yourself, whatever they did, your interpretation of it is what hurt you, not what they did. Your interpretation. That might sound ridiculous, but it means that when you come to them, you don't say, you did this to me and you hurt me. You don't even say, you hurt me. You say, when you did this, I felt like this and that hurt, which is different. It doesn't make them the enemy. And it takes. It makes you responsible for your own feelings.

Nicole [00:48:54]: That's true.

John [00:48:55]: You can say, like, you know, because it's a different interpreter, because they might feel like their actions should. They would not have interpreted that in a way that caused them to be hurt.

Brief Speaker [00:49:03]: Right, Right.

John [00:49:04]: Because if you've ever been in the situation, well, if I did this to you, would. What would you think? And they're like, I would be okay with that. And then now you're like.

Nicole [00:49:14]: That'S also not true as well.

John [00:49:16]: When people say that, yeah, some of it's not true. But. But if you, if it's. But that's disputable, right. Whether this action causes hurt. And they can argue that case. But if you say, this happened and I felt hurt, like, this is. This is what happened.

Nicole [00:49:35]: Yeah, I felt like when this happened and that hurt.

John [00:49:37]: And yeah. And you can't just. You can't argue that. You can't say, no, you didn't. No, that's like, this is what happened. And this is. And you own your, Your reaction to it. It's. It feels like a. It seems like a subtle difference, but it's a huge difference in. In the. Because now you're not accusing the other person. Because also what happens is that most of the time we don't intentionally hurt someone. Right. But when we tell someone, you hurt me, it sounds like intentional.

Nicole [00:50:05]: Yeah.

Brief Speaker [00:50:06]: Right.

John [00:50:06]: But if we, if we think, okay, they're not intentionally hurting me, then we say, okay, well, you did this, or you said this thing, and then I felt this way and that hurt me. Now it doesn't seem intentional. Now it seems like this is their interpretation.

Nicole [00:50:19]: And exactly.

John [00:50:20]: So that. I think that's a big important part of it. Because when you just unload on Someone, unless they're a saint, unless they're a Buddhist monk, they're gonna probably have a reaction to that and feel attacked by you.

Nicole [00:50:34]: Yeah, but everybody should be working on trying to get to a place though, where they can respond, not reactive. And it is possible because I was very reactive and now sometimes even I'm surprised how unreactive I can be in situations that even boil some of the reactivity in me and I still don't let that spill out. But that is also things that people can work on as well too. And it is important and both people should work on it. You can't control your partner, but you can also lead by example.

Brief Speaker [00:51:05]: Right?

Nicole [00:51:05]: And I will tell you, you will have a way more peaceful life if you can both learn to be not as reactive and use the things that we're telling you. Because we've not used them and we've been there and talked for eight hours and still sometimes felt like we haven't actually figured, finished the problem. And then where we're at now, knock on wood, is totally different.

John [00:51:29]: And that can help you to be non reactive too, is to take that perspective. When someone is telling you how you've hurt them is to know that they've actually hurt themselves and they're, they're like. Because then you can, you can realize it's not, it's not actually you, it's something within that. Because they might have different triggers or different traumas in their past and something that's totally innocent on your part might cause that reaction. And so don't take the responsibility of thinking that you've hurt them. Like, yeah, yeah, I mean, take responsibility for your actions. But, but if they're telling you that you've hurt them, it might be just internal to them and you should just empathize with it. It doesn't mean that you're taking responsibility that you, you did something bad.

Nicole [00:52:13]: Right. You know, but you should care about your partner, care that your partner's hurt and try to focus on that. Rather than focus on you being the one that hurt them, focus on that they're hurt and not wanting them to be hurt because you care about them and you love them and you want to have a happy, peaceful life. So we're gonna work through whatever's going on. You're hurt until you feel better so we can get back to the peaceful state that we were in before.

John [00:52:39]: Now, there's one other thing I want to talk about on this.

Nicole [00:52:41]: Is it the same one that I'm.

John [00:52:43]: I think so, probably. Which is the Idea of like how fixing a relationship can result in resentment, that is.

Nicole [00:52:53]: Well, I was gonna say that maybe you haven't felt resentment, but then all of a sudden a shift happens in your relationship and you now you do feel resentment.

John [00:53:02]: So a lot of times what happens too is that you're in a fighting phase and the two of you are just attacking each other or you're having a lot of difficulties, whatever. And then when things quiet down because you're actually starting to resolve issues, then one person or both now feels a massive amount of resentment when things should be getting better because now you're actually talking about or actually even when the person changes. So let's say that that someone is engaging in harmful behavior. They're doing something really harmful to the other partner. And that partner is trying to get them to understand and trying to get them to change. And then they actually do start to change. They actually do start to heal. They actually stop doing that harmful behavior. Now that other partner is even more upset at them. And because they're. Because now the resentment really starts to come out.

Nicole [00:54:06]: Because what do you think that is?

John [00:54:07]: The reason why that happens is because when you're being hurt, our natural reaction is to seek validation. So if someone is, is emotionally or physically abusing us, we just want it to stop. So all of our energy is put into like trying to be better or to try to get them to stop. And then we're kind of burying the hurt because we're ignoring that. Because the more immediate need is to put out the fire and to get them to stop behaving this way to stop the new infliction of damage. So when they actually stop doing it, we're no longer in that flight or fight mode. And now we're sitting with the actual hurt that we've been ignoring for such a long time. All that toll of the damage and then now we have to deal with it. And a lot of times that now we've got this built up resentment because we were letting our needs go unmet for such a long time because we were trying to tend to their needs, are trying to stop ourselves from being abused that now we have to sit with what actually now all this is coming up for us and we're trying to deal with all that stuff.

Nicole [00:55:12]: Like now you can actually process your feelings about it. Because before you couldn't. Because you're focused on other things.

John [00:55:18]: Exactly, exactly. So that's a big.

Nicole [00:55:21]: Sounds like though that you gotta talk about that stuff, right? Like even though you're talking and resolving some things there's still more to be talked about.

John [00:55:29]: Well, and then what happens is, I think also in that case, the person that is now that was being the, you know, subjected to the harm and now the other person stopped harming them. They're holding on to this hurt.

Nicole [00:55:43]: Right.

John [00:55:43]: And they're afraid to bring it up. Why?

Nicole [00:55:45]: To cause more problems, to get back in that fighting.

John [00:55:49]: Because they finally stopped. They. That person finally stopped sticking them with the stick.

Nicole [00:55:53]: Yeah.

John [00:55:53]: And now if they're like, hey, when you stuck me with the stick 50 times, you know, that kind of hurt. Now they're like, oh, then they're going to start sticking me with the stick again. And so what happens is they're trying to avoid conflict. They don't want to get back in that situation. So then they build up resentment. And then the relationship drops off from the other end when you thought it was going to drop off from the one end.

Nicole [00:56:15]: Right.

John [00:56:15]: If that makes sense.

Nicole [00:56:16]: No, it does. But you do still have to talk it out. Even if you're afraid for all that to happen again. And if that does happen again and it's at a point where you know it's unacceptable, then that's a choice that you have to make. Because that's different. Abuse is different, you know, or whatever. Like, if it's to that extreme, then you know, what's the best decision for you to make?

Brief Speaker [00:56:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:56:39]: Because you're in that situation. But in order to fully resolve it, the all the resentment has to be gone.

John [00:56:45]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:56:46]: And two, like, I get it that when you don't feel like you had time to process your own emotions, that now that things have calmed down, you're doing that. But like you said, I think also, though, the more you hold on to that hurt, like, I'm not saying don't talk about it. It definitely needs to be talked about. It definitely needs to be, you know, aired out and the person needs to be vulnerable about it in order for it to feel, like, actually resolved.

Brief Speaker [00:57:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:14]: But there is also a part of it where you have to stop identifying with your pain as well, too, in order for you to move forward.

John [00:57:22]: Otherwise, you're the victim. Like, you're.

Nicole [00:57:24]: Well, what relationship has a partner that has never hurt the other partner, right? None.

John [00:57:32]: None.

Nicole [00:57:32]: So, like, if you're constantly keeping score.

Brief Speaker [00:57:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:37]: That's just going to harm your relationship. That's another form of resentment, honestly.

Brief Speaker [00:57:41]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:57:42]: And no matter what it is, if you still want to be with that person, you have to let it go. Like, you can't live there anymore. You can't you know, live in the past, right? And. Because that resentment will come back. Because even if you've talked it all out, right? But you're constantly stewing on what happened that you talked out and you felt good about. Now you feel bad again, right? Because you're ruminating on it, and now you might start causing problems that actually you didn't even need to start.

John [00:58:11]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:58:12]: So it's like you're. At some point you can cause your own resentment from how far you can go down the rabbit hole in your own mind, right? And so again, you kind of have to subjectively look at it and be like, do I have this resentment because it's still happening and I haven't talked about it and whatever, then you need to talk about it. You need to. Whatever you need to do, like we talked about in this whole episode. But if you're feeling resentment and you've already talked about it and you did feel like it resolved, but now you're feeling resentment again, and you feel like you need to rehash it out, you need to ask yourself, am I hurting my own feelings again? I mean, it all comes down to that, but am I hurting my own feelings? Or did I really not get it out the first time? And maybe we do need to have another conversation.

John [00:58:58]: And forgiveness. Am I actually.

Nicole [00:59:00]: Forgiveness? Yeah.

John [00:59:01]: You know, forgiving.

Nicole [00:59:02]: Right.

John [00:59:03]: Because if you never forgive, you can hash it out. You could tell them 50 times that it's not going to make any bit of a difference until you actually really let it go. And remember, forgiveness is very hard. The real definition of forgiveness is very hard. It means to. To. To erase it from memory. It means, like, forgive and forget. It means it never happened. It means to never count it as if it ever happened. That's what true forgiveness is like. It's like it never happened. That's what real forgiveness is. And so if you're not at that point, you need to get there.

Nicole [00:59:35]: Right?

John [00:59:35]: And that also kind of dovetails into the other, one other piece of this, which is that, like, is the difference between grace and resentment, right? And it's like, if your partner does something that you feel hurt by, you might not react to that or even address it. And that can be burying it, I guess maybe it's like bearing or grace. And so if you. If you are like, oh, I'm gonna let it go. I'm not gonna make a big deal of it. It can come from one of two things. It could be either because you're being very graceful to your partner, like, I'm really not gonna make a big. Who cares? It's not a big deal.

Nicole [01:00:15]: Yeah.

John [01:00:15]: Or it could be. I'm not gonna make a big deal of it because I. I'm gonna push it under their rug. I'm going to. Not. I don't want to get into a fight, but it really does. So it's either, like, you're fully letting it go, which is the immediate forgiveness, but that's what Grace.

Nicole [01:00:31]: Grace would actually be in this situation. Being like, oh, this bothered me, but I know he wouldn't do that. And then giving Grace then.

Brief Speaker [01:00:40]: Right?

Nicole [01:00:40]: Like, and letting go, knowing who the person is. Because I don't think someone's gonna have something come up. Like, let's say it's the toilet seat because we've been talking about that.

Brief Speaker [01:00:47]: Right?

Nicole [01:00:47]: And her initially be like, he doesn't care about me. And just be like. Like, I forgive him. I think she'll be like, he doesn't care about me. But that's not true. He does this, this, and this for me. So you know what? He does care about me, and I know that. So I'm not gonna say anything about the toilet seat because.

John [01:01:02]: Exactly. That's great.

Nicole [01:01:04]: Because I know that he does these other things that proves to me that he cares about me. And so I'm probably viewing this in a different way than it actually is.

John [01:01:12]: Grace is when you can truly let it go.

Nicole [01:01:14]: Right? If that would be truly letting it go if you convinced yourself you don't.

John [01:01:18]: Have to talk about every single issue every time something bothers you.

Nicole [01:01:21]: Right?

John [01:01:21]: Because some of them you can truly. But you have. You can't kid yourself on it if you can't truly let it go, no matter what it is. Burying it under the rug.

Brief Speaker [01:01:30]: Right.

John [01:01:30]: Then you just need to talk about it so that you can truly let it go.

Nicole [01:01:35]: Right.

Brief Speaker [01:01:35]: Right.

John [01:01:36]: It's because the ultimate, like thing we're trying to do is to truly let things go. Because. Because all that resentment is. Is not truly letting things go. And so you. Sometimes you can truly let things go because you just.

Brief Speaker [01:01:49]: You.

John [01:01:49]: You just let it go. Like, you don't need to talk about it. You just. Oh, it's not that big of it. I. I'm processing this. Okay. This is a silly thing I came up with in my head. There's so much more evidence that she loves me and treats me well, and I'm actually going to let it go. I won't ever need to think about this again.

Nicole [01:02:06]: Yeah.

John [01:02:06]: Or you're.

Brief Speaker [01:02:08]: You're.

John [01:02:08]: You're kidding yourself and pretending like oh, yeah, I'm. It's not that big of a deal. Really. It's not. But it really is a big deal.

Brief Speaker [01:02:17]: Right.

John [01:02:17]: So.

Nicole [01:02:18]: Well, and it's from someone who never used to let anything go. It's a lot more lighter of a life.

John [01:02:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:24]: That you live when you learn to let things go. You feel a lot happier when you don't let things go. You think, oh, if I let this go, then this person's going to do this to me again. Or, you know, then I don't feel validated for my feelings when this happened. But it honestly is better to let it go than to hold on to it and allow it to harm you for the rest of your life, honestly. Because that's what it is essentially doing. Because now you have it there to bring up and hurt your own feelings all the time when. If you let it go because you're confident in the choice that you made.

Brief Speaker [01:03:05]: Right.

Nicole [01:03:05]: So let's say your partner hurt your feelings and you can't let it go. You're just hurting yourself and your relationship by holding onto that. But if you trust your partner and you want to still be with them, you got to let it go. And if it happens again and it's big enough of a deal, then it's a deal breaker and you deal with that then.

Brief Speaker [01:03:24]: Right.

Nicole [01:03:24]: But if you chose to let it go and move forward, you're trusting that that's not going to happen. So it's like, you got. You have to like, live in the now. I'm reading the Power of Now, but it is true. And this is coming from someone who did the. All the opposite of the things I'm saying now, but that I do the things that I'm talking about now, for the most part, I'm still human, but I did used to hold onto a bunch of stuff and my life in general felt heavier because I had all this shit that I was like, still had in my arsenal. So that I could justify being upset.

John [01:03:55]: About this room of pain that you're just bouncing against the wall, the spiked walls.

Nicole [01:04:00]: So I could justify the way that I was behaving or I was acting or like I'm angry because I have this, this and this, you know, and a lot of people live that way.

Brief Speaker [01:04:08]: It.

John [01:04:08]: But it just hurts you. Every day you feel the hurt again.

Nicole [01:04:10]: Think that it's hurting you. You think that it's good because you can use it to validate your anger or whatever you have.

Brief Speaker [01:04:16]: Right.

Nicole [01:04:17]: But I'm telling you that letting it go and living from a place of Peace and happiness. And, like, yeah, you're gonna get angry sometimes, but when you don't allow your emotions to dictate how you act towards people, it's so much more freeing. It's so much more peaceful. So I'm telling you, as someone who's been on both sides, let the shit go. Talk about the stupid stuff. Yeah, because you feel so much better because you're not carrying anything. It's like carrying a bunch of, like, bricks in your backpack.

John [01:04:49]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:04:50]: That's what you're doing when you don't let it go. And then when you let it go, you take the bricks out.

Brief Speaker [01:04:54]: Right.

Nicole [01:04:54]: And it feels great.

John [01:04:55]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:04:57]: So, yeah, resentment, number one. Way to kill your relationship.

John [01:05:03]: All right, well, that was good.

Nicole [01:05:05]: That's literally it.

John [01:05:06]: That's it. And. And I don't think. Yeah, we don't have anything. I mean, we already talked about. But.

Nicole [01:05:10]: Yeah, that was like.

John [01:05:11]: But it was the thing.

Nicole [01:05:12]: I can't think of anything else. Yeah, right.

John [01:05:14]: We've been through some fire and we came out unscathed. Like.

Nicole [01:05:19]: Yeah. I mean, I guess we're, you know, we're. We practice what we preach, so that's why we're here doing what we do.

John [01:05:27]: Yeah, but. Yeah, but it's a testament because, like, you know, every time we say this, though, then we have but. And we knock on wood. But.

Brief Speaker [01:05:33]: But.

John [01:05:33]: But it's always a bigger gap in between.

Brief Speaker [01:05:36]: Right.

John [01:05:37]: It's like, I mean, again, I'm jinxing us, but I think we've gone months without having an argument. Really?

Nicole [01:05:44]: Like, yeah, I mean, I knocked on wood. Because we are human.

John [01:05:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:05:47]: And.

John [01:05:47]: Yeah, and I'm sure something will come up at some point, but.

Nicole [01:05:50]: And I'm a little stitches.

John [01:05:51]: The gaps become bigger and bigger.

Nicole [01:05:53]: Right.

John [01:05:54]: Over time.

Nicole [01:05:54]: Because we're learning and we're applying it because we care about each other. That's what we're saying here.

John [01:05:59]: And there's no resentment that's built up because also, resentment is also like kindling. And it. The fire, a lot easier to in, you know, because you just. Yeah, exactly. And so when you don't have that, then it takes more. You know, you got a lot more tolerance right in there. But you're on a short fuse when you got a pile of resentment.

Nicole [01:06:18]: Sometimes a very short views. If you got a lot of resentment, someone just breathes and you're like, why are you doing that? It's like some people act that way because their fuse is so short. They have so much stuff.

John [01:06:27]: But it's also why, too. Like, it's Not a good way to. To be. It's not a good way to have a relationship. But there are some couples that yell and yell at each other all the time, and they stay together forever because.

Nicole [01:06:39]: It'S not a good way to both doing bad things. And so then they feel like they're on the same.

John [01:06:44]: Well, they're. They're also resolving all the thing. They're not burying anything under the rug. It's like immediately they're reacting to the other person and calling them a name or are yelling at them back. And so it's like they're just letting it all out all the time.

Nicole [01:06:58]: Yeah, they're not.

John [01:06:59]: It's not a good way to do things, but it just shows. Like, it's like, how can couples fight all the time and be together? And. But then it's like the quiet couple that, like, falls apart and hates each other. It's because they are secretly building the resentment. So you shouldn't be fighting all the time and screaming at each other.

Nicole [01:07:14]: Right.

John [01:07:14]: But there's a way to just talk about your stuff. Exactly. All right, well, that's it for this episode.

Brief Speaker [01:07:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:07:21]: Check out our website.

John [01:07:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:07:23]: Better than PerfectPod.com.

John [01:07:25]: Exactly.

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John [01:07:29]: Send us the email question.

Nicole [01:07:30]: Yeah.

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