Nicole [00:00:00]: Women don't care if a man's with a stripper.

John [00:00:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:00:02]: They care, though, that if a man, the same man that would talk down to a stripper, is married to a stripper, because that's hypocritical. And that's what I would assume that that lady was doing by being like, hey, doesn't your wife have three baby daddies? To prove that someone that you think is below you is lesser is irredeemable. You married? When men have this mindset, it gets so extreme, to the point where they can't be with any woman because their red pill friends will tear them apart.

John [00:00:32]: Perfect we discover through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every.

Nicole [00:00:43]: Fault we find our way.

John [00:00:47]: All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:56]: That's right.

John [00:00:57]: All right, so we got. Have. We have a pretty exciting topic today, which is. I don't know, what. Did you have a good name for.

Nicole [00:01:05]: This red pill cult?

John [00:01:07]: Okay, there we go. Let's just call it what it is.

Nicole [00:01:10]: Yeah.

John [00:01:11]: Okay. Yeah. So I think this will be a good. Good one to talk about. We're. I think we were having some discussion about.

Nicole [00:01:18]: I think there was a video that I showed you.

John [00:01:21]: Oh, yeah, that's what it was. Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:23]: From the Guardian about this guy that was in the red pill, and then he realized that. That, you know, all the things that he was brainwashed into thinking about women weren't necessarily true.

John [00:01:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:34]: And the video, I feel like. And you felt like added things in there just to kind of, like, prove a point. But the point that he ended up making, that we ended up having a long discussion about, and I wrote down points from that here.

John [00:01:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:50]: Is important for sure.

John [00:01:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:52]: And I don't think a lot of people are having this discussion about it. And essentially it's that men have ruined men, not women have ruined men.

John [00:02:01]: Right, right, Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:03]: And that's for many, many reasons, but.

John [00:02:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:07]: It's when men are so frustrated about the way society is and the way women are, it's because these other men have brainwashed them into thinking that all women are bad. And so these men aren't even going out and meeting other women. They're staying at home, they're staying online, and then they're complaining about being alone and lonely when they're basing all of their information of women off of these angry men. Because that's essentially what it is like.

John [00:02:41]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:02:41]: Because there are plenty of men online, including you, that can give men information on how to deal with women that aren't angry at women. They're not exactly. They're not demonizing women.

John [00:02:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:54]: Like the red pill guys are.

John [00:02:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:57]: And because I have rarely seen a red pill video from people that people already know that are in that community.

John [00:03:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:08]: That they ever say one nice thing about a woman.

John [00:03:11]: Right. That's true. Exactly.

Nicole [00:03:13]: Not one nice thing. The whole video.

John [00:03:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:17]: If I was a man.

John [00:03:19]: Mh.

Nicole [00:03:20]: How would I feel like watching a man.

John [00:03:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:25]: Destroy my desire to be with a woman by saying that they're all bad and they're. You're never going to find a good one.

John [00:03:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:34]: How would I feel good about that? The only thing is, is that they feel like they have a community.

John [00:03:40]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:03:40]: With men, but they're still lacking the thing that they want, which is women.

John [00:03:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:45]: Which these red pill guys. And I don't know if we'll get flagged for saying the word, but at this point it doesn't matter.

John [00:03:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:54]: I don't know if I do think some of them are doing this on purpose just for money. Just to like make rage. Bait.

John [00:04:03]: Right. And a very small amount of money, by the way. A lot of them are not enough to be ruined. Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:09]: Society.

John [00:04:10]: They're not. I think they're big for that because they're making 100k a year.

Nicole [00:04:14]: But that's why to like the issue with like the Andrew Tate thing. And I've even seen some of Andrew Tate's stuff and even he has sometimes good things to say about women.

John [00:04:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:24]: Yeah.

John [00:04:24]: But he's actually more balanced like in the terms.

Nicole [00:04:27]: I don't know. I mean, I feel like he says scales go different ways.

John [00:04:30]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:32]: Dream.

John [00:04:32]: But he. You. He does say good things about women. Right. As opposed to somebody does that. Never do. Which again, you know, I'm not. I know him personally. Right. So I've had him, you know, But. And where he's at right now and the stuff that has proven enough to me that I am not in his camp at all, like, it's. He's gone. You know, he's extreme in a very bad way. Right. So. But I'm just saying, like.

Nicole [00:05:01]: But the problem is not even him is what I'm trying to say. It's that.

John [00:05:05]: No.

Nicole [00:05:06]: The hateful stuff.

John [00:05:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:08]: People cling to. And even if a guy. Red pill guy, says a few nice things about women.

John [00:05:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:16]: It's not enough to overpower at this point. The hateful stuff.

John [00:05:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:20]: And then some people are Just straight hating women and they never say anything nice, right? And so men, these men, these red pill men have created, right, this problem, right, that men are blaming women, women for, right? When they are creating it, they are making men hate all women, right? And then they're like, oh, the male loneliness epidemic, right?

John [00:05:45]: But yeah, that's created the male loneliness. Exactly.

Nicole [00:05:48]: Men created that. Not the men that are upset about it. Not the, like, victims. And I don't really want to call them victims because even in the video that we saw by the Guardian, the guy was like, they prey on the victim mentality. And that's true. So, like, I don't even really want to call them that. But they are a victim to the red pill content, to the red pill creators. They are victim to that.

John [00:06:11]: It's.

Nicole [00:06:11]: Yeah, but instead I just don't want them to wallow in that because like the guy said, I think that's what's keeping them in this loop where they're like, oh, it's not me, it's women. And like, oh, these other men get it. So I'll just hang out with them until I find a woman. You're not going to find a woman because they're going to make you hate women so bad that, that it's just you and your bros on YouTube.

John [00:06:30]: And here's the thing about it, because it's even like the last episode, right, we didn't play that full video. It was from, I think probably from Fresh and Fit on what Myron was saying or some clip about him talking about Akasha's wife, right? And we played a little bit of the clips that were like her clips from her podcast, right? But when we played through the whole thing and we, we watched the whole thing, you know, what I told you about it was that you see how, like a naive guy coming into this, he sees that, he sees how this woman's acting, right? He hears the stuff that Myron's saying about it and he takes the bait wholeheartedly. Cause like, yeah, I mean, compared to. Sounds like he's talking sense compared to what this woman's doing. Yeah, he gets it. Like, you see what I'm saying? But unfortunately, some of the stuff that, that Myron's saying is not exactly accurate. It's not the best. And then what's being slipped in there is that, is that Myron saying stuff that's very negative towards women or even just making fun of this girl or any stuff like that, stuff that I don't support. Which, again, which, the complicated nature of this Whole thing is like, Myron is someone who I know extremely well. I helped him a lot when he was getting started out, believe it or not, with his podcast, and gave him a platform. On my podcast, I was in the red pill community in the sense that I was one of the founders of it. I was one of the first guys. Now, this was a different red pill than what it is now because the whole idea initially of the red pill was just. See, what I talked about last podcast episode was seeing reality clearly, right? Now seeing reality clearly is not the same thing as like, the reality isn't, oh, women are horrible. No, that's your opinion. Like, you can look at the behaviors and what's happening.

Nicole [00:08:28]: Woman could be horrible that you dealt with or just like want to deal.

John [00:08:32]: With or just certain things about women's behavior and their attraction to men and sexual attraction and understanding these things. That was kind of the idea behind the red pill initially was just, let's just understand the truth. It's not this whole fairy tale thing where, you know, this is why nice guys finish last and why women prefer to date assholes. Like, like understanding the psychology of that. That's what it was about. Hold on.

Nicole [00:08:56]: That does make it seem like just really quick that then they should be an asshole.

John [00:09:03]: Well, okay, yeah, I'm giving a very, a very shallow treatment to the, to the subject, right? Like, but, but what I'm saying is that just like understanding why that that happens, right? Whereas what it's become now as more of just hatred towards women, it's become victim mindset, right? Like, like the idea initially of the red pill was like, stop having the victim mindset and have some truth of some reality. That's a hard pill to swallow that's going to set you free so that you're not, you know, you don't, you don't, you're not ruled by this being upset and being a victim. But unfortunately that's what's, you know, that stuff has changed and it's become very much the victim mindset. So that's why I've separated myself from that is because it doesn't represent accurately. And even when you go back and look at my videos content, when I was in groups of like, there was a red pill roundtable that I was part of, right? When you look at the things that I've said, like anyone can go back through all my, I mean, I have thousands of videos, hundreds, you know, thousands of hours of footage of me. You will never hear me disparaging women. You'll hear me being the only guy that's saying, you know, this. This is. Women have it hard to, like, understand these things because that's always been. Been. Been my objective on it. But I think it's important to, like, kind of understand the context of. Of that and, you know, because it's. It is a complicated subject. And. And that's the real danger of this. And this is why the red pill is so dangerous in the cult, is because there are truths mixed with interpretation and lies. And compared to the mainstream narrative that society has pushed, this is a good alternative to men. Right? Because they're like. Like I said with that video, if guys watch that video and they see Akash's wife, they're going to be like, oh, yeah. What Myron saying is, right? And now they're all the way over here and they don't realize that. No, no, no, it's not. It's a false dichotomy. It's not like you're either like this pussy of a guy, like blue pill simp guy, or you're this. That's a false dichotomy. Like, those aren't the two choices that you have. It's not just red pill or blue pill. There's other choices along that spectrum. And it's like, you don't want to be this guy over here, but you don't want to be this guy that's also a victim, that has a victim mindset. Instead, you want to choose the path of, okay, I have a high respect for women and myself, and so I act this way, I treat people this way, I expect this kind of treatment. I have standards for myself, but that's. That's not what's being taught.

Nicole [00:11:48]: Right.

John [00:11:48]: Does that make sense? Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:49]: Yeah. And I have multiple things to say about that. And another thing that the video that kind of sparked this whole conversation between me and you from the Guardian was the guy was talking about how even when he was not trying to engage in red pill content, it was still constantly showing up on his feed. And people were talking about how they, like, deleted their account to try to, like, reset their algorithm. And then the red pill stuff was still showing up. And I believe that because I watched the video that we used for the last episode, and you got the whole. And now Myron stuff is popping up. You know what I mean? And I'm like. And I watched one video, right, for that. Like, I can't imagine how guys that come across some of this stuff and they watch a few of them now, they're probably being bombarded.

John [00:12:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:33]: With all these people's thing. And maybe they watch a video that kind of makes sense. So they're like, let me watch another one. And then before they know it, they're sucked down this victim mindset wormhole and now they're full blown red pill. And.

John [00:12:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:48]: They don't even really know how they got there. They just feel good because someone's like, yeah, it's not your fault.

John [00:12:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:54]: And. But it's like, instead of men using what they think about women, like you said, to have internal discipline right. In themselves, they're painting women as the bad guys.

John [00:13:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:10]: And I'm not saying that there aren't bad women, just like there are bad men out there.

John [00:13:14]: Sure.

Nicole [00:13:14]: Like they're bad people out there or.

John [00:13:16]: The people who made bad choices. Like.

Nicole [00:13:18]: But. Yeah, exactly. But the issue now is that they watch a red pill video or. Well, the red pill videos are more about hate now. But even if they watch what you would used to do in the past and you're trying to teach it in a way where they do use it as internal discipline or being like, you know, women want fit guys. And when they, they watch that, instead of being like, all right, well let me up my chances by going to the gym more and like, get on a, like, diet and like, get in better shape and see what that gets me, they're instead, like, I'm not fit, so that means that I'm hopeless.

John [00:13:56]: Right?

Nicole [00:13:56]: Like, that's how they're internalized.

John [00:13:58]: Or they're like, oh, women have these ridiculous standards. They're so horrible. Women. You see what I'm saying? Like, that somehow they're making it into them being the victim.

Nicole [00:14:07]: Right, Exactly. They're not like viewing the things in a way to better their chances. They're viewing it in a way to keep them out of the game.

John [00:14:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:16]: So that they don't have to play it at all. So then they don't strike out. Like.

John [00:14:20]: And, and here's what the truth of this, this is the analogy that I like to use is. It's like, okay, you were playing this game before and you didn't know what the rules were, right? And so the idea of what is supposed to be of red pill, but let's just say just of helpful reality is that like, now I've explained to you what the rules of the game are. So now what do you do with that? You can say, I don't like the rules of the game. This game is bullshit. This is whatever. Or, or you can say, okay, now I can actually play the Game better. You might not like the rules of the game and that's fine, but it is the rules of the game. Like, you're not going to change that. And so you can be angry about it, you can have a victim mindset about it, you can blame women, you can blame society, you can blame other people. And some of the blames might be valid. Like the rules might suck, I can agree with that. But it doesn't change the rules. It doesn't change the game that you're playing. And so my whole thing when I first kind of discovered these things myself was I was like, okay, damn, now I know what the rules are. Okay, Now I can optimize my play to get the result that I want and I have more power and more sovereignty over myself. If I give away that power by being the victim by blaming women or blaming people or complaining about the rules of the game, then I'm putting myself in a weaker position, you know what I'm saying? So that's kind of what, what like, like anything that's deviating from explaining things in an impersonal way is destructive in victim mindset. Because it's like if these guys want to talk about, okay, you know, these are some of the things that, that we see that is like in sexual behavior with women, like, and we've talked about those things, it's fine. Like, but when you attach a meaning to this and like, okay, this makes this person bad or this is why then that's where you, you've, you've gone off the reservation is. It's, it's no good. And that's where cult becomes destructive is, is when you, when you're doing it to that level.

Nicole [00:16:18]: Yeah. No, and I think too that men are focusing on the wrong things like the term Chad and things like that.

John [00:16:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:27]: Are so harmful to men for sure.

John [00:16:29]: Absolutely.

Nicole [00:16:30]: Because the reality is that men don't like, is that women don't even always play by their own rules.

John [00:16:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:38]: But the core rules of like who you have to be as a man, which every single man on this planet has the ability to control in themselves, is the main thing that matters. There are women that are married to men shorter than them. There are women that are married to men that they make more money than there are all these things. I'm not saying that they are like ideal relationships for sure, but it disproves all the things that a lot of red pill people say that you have to. Or black pill or whatever, that you have to look a certain way, way and be this Amount tall and have abs. Do those things help you? Yes, but there's also Chads who have it all and don't have women in the way that they essentially want as well either. They might get women temporarily, maybe, but even you have talked about that. If they don't have the ability to talk to women, they're also not going to get women, right? So it's like those core things matter more. And even guys will sometimes admit those things, but then they use the looks part to kind of justify an excuse that they shouldn't even try.

John [00:17:48]: Well, and just like we were saying with the last podcast episode, if you haven't watch it, watch that last episode, especially the end. But what you say about me is. Is. Is more important to me than me being able to get you. You know what I'm saying? It's like. Like what's more important is not that you're attractive, which obviously you are, and guys can see that, but it's what you say about me, meaning that the character that I have, you understand what I'm saying is more important. Like if I'm some stud of a chad guy, right, and that's all that I am, and you can't get on the podcast and say wonderful things about me besides my appearance, right, as my character, as a man, then what have I actually won in this world? What am I actually. You see what I'm saying? It's like you can have those things, and then even if you attract women, but then those women can't get on the podcast and say amazing things about your character.

Nicole [00:18:49]: You have control over of those things even too.

John [00:18:52]: So the focus has to be on the character of what kind of man you become. And that's always been the core of my content, even in the quote, red pill days, is like, let's not focus on all this other shit. Let's focus on how do you use this to become a better man? Like, you become a better man, you know what I'm saying? Not the appearance of a better man. Not playing this game. So you can, like, how does it make you like your character? How does it make you stronger to go through these things, to have a harder life to realize that, yeah, women don't like weakness. They abhor weakness. Everybody abhors weakness in a man. So how do you build strength as a man? So those are really the key things is that is. Is that's ultimately. And that's what you're saying is that's what every man can control, right? They can't control how tall they Control.

Nicole [00:19:38]: Your look or your genetics, right? You can go to the gym, right? That you can control, but that's also character.

John [00:19:44]: But going to the gym is character.

Nicole [00:19:45]: It's discipline.

John [00:19:46]: You get those abs based on you. I'm saying, like, that's about the type of person. When I look at a person and I can look at their body and I can see if they have discipline or not, right? Because again, it's not a judgment. It's like, oh, you're a bad person. It's just. No, I can see if you have discipline or not, right? It's like those are the characteristics and those are things that you can work on and every man can achieve. And if you have those characteristics, which also result in outside appearance changes, right? But also how you carry yourself and how you interact with people, then you're optimizing for the right thing. You're gonna have. It doesn't guarantee that you're gonna have whatever woman you want or whatever. Like, it doesn't guarantee.

Nicole [00:20:28]: That's delulu.

John [00:20:29]: Yeah. And it doesn't make it that. That women are attracted to taller guys or, you know, like whatever, or jawline. Like, those things are still true. Those things are still true. But those are things that are outside of your immediate control.

Nicole [00:20:42]: Those things are way lesser, right, Than what you're talking about, the character traits, which is that.

John [00:20:47]: But that's the thing is, like, if you focus on building your character as a man, then you give yourself the greatest chance of having the opportunities that you want with women or whatever in life. And so there's no reason to focus on anything besides, what can I do and build myself? And even if it's not as much as you would like it to be, and like I said, you're never gonna be six foot, whatever, it doesn't matter. But because you've known that, you've optimized yourself and your chances as best as possible because that's all you can do. And anything that's focused energy other than that is a waste and is stopping you from doing that. And that's where these red pill guys are robbing men of that opportunity because they're stealing their attention, they're stealing their fear focus onto things that are outside of them, that they can't control about women's bad behavior. Even that video with Akasha's wife, it's like, okay, we're using that for a demonstrative purpose. But if you're consuming that concept and going, your brain cycles about, oh, look how horrible women are today. And look at women. Can Talk like this about their own husband and all this stuff, it's stealing from you. The time that you could be working on, reading good books to develop yourself as a man, watching good podcasts, going to the gym, building your business. Instead, you're spending the time feeding into that emotion, that negativity that's addicting in the victim mindset, and you're training your brain in the wrong way. And so that's what it's being stolen from you. Whereas if you take all that time and all that energy and all that focus and tell me that a man that hasn't put that into building himself, his character as a man, that he would be in a better position. You see what I'm saying? If you had all that time back and focus and energy and you put it into yourself, you wouldn't even be having this conversation. You wouldn't be having the problems. You wouldn't be alone. You wouldn't be feeling this way.

Nicole [00:22:36]: Well, it goes back to.

John [00:22:37]: It's a theft.

Nicole [00:22:38]: So what we said in last episode as well, that it's that negativity loop. It's. You're watching people talk bad about people. So then you start talking bad about people, right? And then you feel bad about yourself, and then you keep consuming that in order to be around that same energy, but it's just the crab in the bucket. And then now you feel so much shame and guilt for consuming negative things and participating in negative things that you can't break out of that cycle easily now, because you've gone down the wormhole of negativity and hating women so bad that it's going to take a lot for you to not hate women, right? And to change your belief now, even though that's what you need to do, you need to face reality, like you said, which is not that all women are bad. Because if the reality that all women is that all women are bad, right, is real, right, then also the reality that all men are bad, right, is real. And that's just not simply not true. Like, right? And so you have to face the reality of that. That there are bad people in the.

John [00:23:52]: World on both sides, or that they make bad decisions.

Nicole [00:23:56]: They make bad decisions.

John [00:23:57]: The Breaking Bad when you watch it is because you see that people do make. Get into situations and they make bad decisions, right?

Nicole [00:24:05]: But you. That doesn't mean everyone's like that. And that doesn't mean that you're going to be forced to be with someone like that. Like, you have to, like you said, work on the things that you can Control, like having standards and how you carry yourself and the type of man that you are, the person that you are, and have discipline and do all those things so that when you come across a woman that is like the woman in the video or that isn't, you know, really the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, yeah, you can send them on their way in a kind but firm way. Like, I'm. I can't see us, you know, continuing any further, but I wish you the best. And then you'll feel good about yourself because you did the right thing. Not feel bad about yourself because you're like, fudge you then, bitch. You know, or whatever. Like, those men don't feel good about themselves.

John [00:24:55]: And when you're that kind of man, right. That women have never even seen before. Right. And I'm not talking about right. But character wise, not. Not looks wise, character wise, then a woman that you've turned away because of how she is, she'll start to change and be like.

Nicole [00:25:14]: To be with you.

John [00:25:15]: Exactly. And that's the thing that these guys don't understand is that when you have that power, I mean, I had, you know, before we got together, there was women that told me, they're like, you're the best man that I've ever met. Like, you know, and I wasn't looking for something. But what I'm saying is that it's not even a reflection on me. It's that I had developed that thing.

Nicole [00:25:39]: That's how you operate, right. Even with temporary people.

John [00:25:42]: And so it was like, some of these women were not women that I would have considered to be like. Of. Of what I was looking for, but they would have changed, you know, saying, like, because you can become that rare of a man, that it's such a rare thing in the world, right? It's rarer than. And that's what I tell guys all the time, is it's like, yeah, okay, women that are, you know, knockout, gorgeous. There's a. There's so many of them, right. They're all over Instagram. There's plenty. You know, it's like, it's not. That's not a thing to be. Right. But to be a man that actually is a man of real character, like a real man, that's the rarest thing in the world. You can have anything if you can be that guy. And that's the falsehood that these guys are being led away from, is thinking that it's all appearances or it's. All of these things are that women are Ruined. And you know, like, I understand all of the arguments. I'm not naive. Like, I understand what's wrong with society. I will agree with you about the, you know, the feminist kind of culture and society and all the kind of messed up stuff that, that women do or that, that people believe today or that is taught. Right. But that doesn't change anything. You know, I'm saying it's like you as a man have to realize your ability to influence not the world, but the people in your life, your tribe. And that's the thing, that's what they're being robbed of. Seeing that ability that they have, of the leadership that they have. It's like, you don't have to, you're not coming into a perfect world and finding everything. What is the purpose of you? If women have already, if they're already wonderful and have it already figured out, like, as a man, like, you're supposed to be a leader and a guide. Otherwise, what, what is your purpose? Like, so you're, you're coming into a place where, where the world needs your help.

Nicole [00:27:40]: Right. You know, but you have to be the man that do that.

John [00:27:43]: You're like, oh, this world is shitty. Well, yeah, that's why it needs your help.

Nicole [00:27:48]: Right.

John [00:27:48]: It's not like, okay, so, so I, so it's not for me. Because it's like the way that women act is shitty. It's like, no, that's why they need your help. Like, you find a woman, you, you, you raise a family like you, you create the thing, you know from you as a leader. But you have to be that first.

Nicole [00:28:06]: Yeah.

John [00:28:06]: And if you're just as shitty as the, the rest of the world, then it doesn't do any good.

Nicole [00:28:10]: Well, that's why I think too, I want to bring up that I don't like when men try to act like women are ruined.

John [00:28:18]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:19]: Even like in the last episode, you didn't say it, but you kind of hinted like, you know, she's, she's too far gone. That, that woman.

John [00:28:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:29]: And right now, yes, for marriage, she's not, she's not ready. But if she's ruined and men keep perpetuating that.

John [00:28:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:39]: Then these men are ruined, then any man that is in the red pill is ruined forever. And that just perpetuates more hopelessness. And I don't think that they're ruined. I think that they're making a weirdly similar, obviously not exactly the same mistake as that woman is.

John [00:28:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:57]: And I think when you say that someone's ruined, then you Have. And then people believe those things. And so then people can't make mistakes. And so then when people know that they've made mistakes, they feel hopeless.

John [00:29:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:12]: That's part of the problem. Like, yeah, I get what men are trying to say about promiscuous women.

John [00:29:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:21]: However, just like I said in the last episode, and just like you just said, right, for the right man, she would never think of those days ever again.

John [00:29:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:32]: And so if she's ruined, you can't go around perpetuating that she's ruined, because for the right man, she would be a totally different woman.

John [00:29:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:44]: And yeah, just like these red pill guys, if they somehow met somebody that was into them and didn't act the way that men are trying to perpetuate that all women act, right. He would be a different man. It would be harder because he does still need to lead. And a woman can't influence a man that much.

John [00:30:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:05]: But he would be different than the red pill culty vibe that he's in now.

John [00:30:13]: Right, Right, exactly. No, you're. You're accurate in, in saying that. It's. I would say that there are some consequences for actions that are irrevocable. And that's the thing to understand about it. It's. It's like, you know, if you, if you do something stupid and it causes you to like, lose a limb, that's a permanent change. Does that mean that your life is over? No. Does it mean that if you lost your arm, you don't have an arm anymore and it's not coming back? It does mean that. Right. Like, those are serious consequences. Right. So there are things that a person can do that do have consequences. It's not like even some of these red pill guys. Look, hey, if you take this philosophy too far and you get yourself into like a domestic abuse type of situation or whatever happens, or you do something to a woman and you're going to have a criminal record or whatever it is, you've got that history, you've got that pass that is going to prevent you from having the best kind of life that you want to have. So those are really the things to think about. But you're accurate in the sense that what's most important in most of the situations is the level of ruined is not.

Nicole [00:31:31]: But her consequence is that she's gonna lose this marriage. Probably.

John [00:31:36]: Or maybe she won't. But, but it's, it's.

Nicole [00:31:38]: But I think her consequences, that. That's probably likely. And at some point, even if it's not now that he does that. And then the other consequence is that she did this publicly and she won't be desired by men. I don't think that. It's like, I don't think that anyone is there to say what she did in the beginning of her life, which we don't even know for sure. She has said some things that are, you know, wild, but plenty people have done probably things more extreme that they just don't talk about for sure.

John [00:32:10]: But it's not like there's not redemption, Right. Take it from me, right? Literally, someone who has done some very bad things. Right. But then I'm standing here today as the man that you respect and look up to and trust with your life and talk highly of. Right? So I know more than anyone that redemption exists. But redemption means recognizing seeing your mistakes of the past, definitely not glorifying them in that way and learning from them. Right. I agree. So when you go down a dark path, it makes your life more likely to be ruined.

Nicole [00:32:57]: I agree. But she can't come out of it. No, no, fine.

John [00:33:01]: You can come out of it.

Nicole [00:33:02]: So you can't say she's ru. When we don't know where.

John [00:33:05]: Well, I don't say that she's. I don't say that.

Nicole [00:33:07]: Well, no, I mean, but like a lot of people do in the red pill community, they'll say those things. Just like the rest of that video that we put. He was like, you know, she's a. And so is the other girl she was talking to when he. When that girl said that she thinks about her husband and doesn't watch these things. I mean, they were joking about the. The orgy thing, which is not good. I agree with that. But it's like assuming all these things based on very minimal information and then claiming that those women are all, you know, done for. And so then these men watching this, they'll meet a woman, and maybe she, like, there's some sort of thing that he doesn't. Like she said something, and then he thinks she's ruined. It's that mind.

John [00:33:52]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:33:52]: I'm not saying, though, that you think that. I'm saying, though, that a lot of red pill content creators say things just like that video that we had from the last episode. If you watch the whole thing, there are plenty things that he says in that.

John [00:34:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:07]: That proves that those women are ruined. And I get that. Like, they're not ideal wife material.

John [00:34:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:14]: For joking about those things. I mean, some of what the one girl said is ideal wife material. You should want your wife not.

John [00:34:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:21]: To think about you when she's doing something like that and not saying, oh, I could never do that.

John [00:34:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:26]: But it's like, if you view it that way, that's why men can't find any good thing to say about a woman, right? And the content creators aren't saying any good thing they can find about a woman, right? Because they already think that all of them are ruined.

John [00:34:41]: Well. And yeah, and again, like, there's different degrees, right? Because, like, because there's reality as well, right? So if you're a woman, if you do an only fans account, right, then in. In their prospects of marriage to a good man, you are ruined. Like, in the sense that that's never going to happen at this point, right? Not a good man. Like, I don't want to say never, but your chances of that happening are extremely slim to none.

Nicole [00:35:07]: Because it's permanent, because it's always there.

John [00:35:09]: Because, like, there's no respectable man that's actually has the character traits that we're talking about is going to accept that. Now, I'm not saying that it's never possible. I'm not saying that you can't have the redemption from that and be like, wow, I really messed up. You have to be very transparent about it. It's like, this was a completely wrong thing that I did. I completely understand modern traditional relationships. I want to be a submissive wife to a man that I trust that will lead me. This was huge errors that I made. I could see that, that redemption. But it's so, you know, at that point, most men are not even going to entertain long enough for you to get to that. You see what I'm saying? Unless you're completely, you know, have really opened your eyes. You see what I'm saying? And so that's why I'm saying it's like there are things that can put you in a situation where it's not going to be good for you, but it's best to not focus on that, right? Because it's more important to focus on who is the person right now that you're dealing with.

Nicole [00:36:15]: That's also very small margin. And these guys will not be with only fan models.

John [00:36:21]: Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah, yeah. It's like it's not reality.

Nicole [00:36:25]: All women like only fan models.

John [00:36:26]: Well, here's a great example.

Nicole [00:36:27]: They're all ruined.

John [00:36:28]: Like, here's a great example, actually. So that whatever podcast, right, you're familiar with that you seem to show me, right? So there's a guy on there that debates people all the time. Andrew, I Think his name is right now. There was a little clip on there where this woman called Andrew out and she was like, hey, it's like your wife, because he's married, he's like, she had three different baby mamas or like a daddy, whatever. Like, she had three different baby mamas because he has three kids, right. That are not of his own. From his wife had three different fathers to those kids. And he's the super ultra conservative, ultra debate, like feminism is bad, really debating sometimes trash talking these women who do this kind of stuff, who live this life. And he's the moral superiority kind of red pill guy on the show kind of thing. Right? And so this woman calls him out on it, but his response, oh, no, but look. But his response was like, how dare you bring my personal life into it? And he said, he said some things, but then he's like, do you think I'm a bad man because I took in three children that are not my own and took care of them and gave them a father? Which was powerful statement that he made. But my point is, is that many people would have said that his wife. That's the point that that woman was trying to say in that podcast. She was like, your wife is ruined. And he said, no, no, no, no.

Nicole [00:38:00]: I think she was trying to say that, like, how can you judge people and be holier than and then partake in behavior that you would condone from other people? That's what I would think. And that is. I think that's fair to say.

John [00:38:16]: But he's saying she was saying that your wife was one of these hoes, right? That you're saying. You see what I'm saying? And, but, but my, my point is actually, I'm, I'm actually proving your point, right? Which is that he didn't see that woman as irredeemable even though she had children from three different men. Like something about her character at the time when she met him, Right. Told him that even though the past would write off this woman, that she had learned she had redeemed herself in some way and was someone that he would want to marry. Right?

Nicole [00:38:56]: Right. I've never seen the clip, so I don't know. Unless she blatantly said, your wife is a hoe, I wouldn't assume that's what she meant. I would assume that she meant what I just said. And I think that that's what women want the most, is just for men to stop being hypocritical. It's like they judge us so harshly on women that are the minority that are acting like that one lady in the clip.

John [00:39:22]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:39:22]: And then, then they can go though and be with a stripper or whatever. Women don't care if a man's with a stripper. They care though, that if a man, the same man that would talk down to a stripper is married to a stripper. Because that's hypocritical. And that's what I would assume that that lady was doing by being like, hey, doesn't your wife have three baby daddies?

John [00:39:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:44]: Not to talk shit even about the woman.

John [00:39:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:47]: But to prove that someone that you think is below you is lesser is irredeemable. You married, Right?

John [00:39:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:55]: And that's the thing is like when men that are in the red pill cult and have this mindset, right, like it gets so extreme to the point where they can't be with any woman because they're red pill friends or content creators will tear them apart or they're like that guy where they just do it anyway because they obviously love this woman and there's something about this woman where they still try to fit in with the red pill stuff, but at some level they don't really believe it because they're not abiding by, right. The rules strictly if they're doing those things. And that's a good thing.

John [00:40:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:36]: But I think that it's bad when that man won't even admit to what he's doing that he's also doesn't believe in.

John [00:40:44]: Because there's a difference between guidance and rules. And see, this is the important distinction. Guidance gives you wisdom to understand things. And like, you know, this is generally what you would see. Like, these are things you need to be aware of. Whereas rules are like, this is, this is exactly right.

Nicole [00:41:04]: You can't be with this.

John [00:41:05]: Right, Exactly. And so it's like, and that's where it comes down to is it's like again, wisdom and guidance. Like if you're giving advice to men is like, yeah, make choices, wise choices in your 20s, right. That will set you up for the future. So that one, you're not overweight and don't. And broke when you're in your 30s or 40s. And that won't be attractive to women. Guidance to women is, hey, don't go out and party in your 20s or whatever. And like not, you know, ratchet up your, your lay count or whatever. You're, you're, you know, because that's not going to necessarily be where you should be spending your time. And is that not going to make you necessarily as attractive to a possible suitor in the future of a man. You know what I'm saying? So those are realities. Do either of those things make someone irredeemable? Absolutely not. Right. Just like a man that wastes his 20s, he can figure some shit out in his 30s. It's going to be harder to be harder for a woman to, like, redeem herself. Like I said, if she has an onlyfans account. It's going to be pretty damn hard to explain that to a respectable guy that you want to marry. But it's possible if you actually have redeemed yourself and have used that actually as a lesson, that has taught you some things. But there's going to be still a larger majority that won't want to have anything to do with you. So it's like there's real consequences, but like.

Nicole [00:42:24]: But the rich community doesn't have those views.

John [00:42:28]: No. When you talk about, like, everything in absolutes. Right. First of all, anyone that talks about things in absolutes, you already know.

Nicole [00:42:36]: Red flag.

John [00:42:36]: Exactly. Right. Because it's not like that. Like, there are guidances and there's things that you should know, but it's not an absolute. Like, you really have to evaluate a person on a case by case basis. And most important thing, I think just for anyone is like, who is the person now?

Nicole [00:42:56]: Right, Right.

John [00:42:56]: Because the mistakes in our past actually.

Nicole [00:42:59]: Are what make us into the people we are now.

John [00:43:02]: Right. And sometimes the mistakes in our past are what make us into not the people we want to be, but they're also the ones that forge us into the people that we want to be. Like that Tony Robbins of the two brothers, you know that, that story, right? They both blame their alcoholic father. One for success, but one for failure. Right. Same father, right. Two brothers. So it's like, it's the perspective and.

Nicole [00:43:22]: That'S why it's so damaging for the red pill.

John [00:43:24]: You wouldn't want me without my mistakes. I wouldn't want you without your mistakes because that's where. Where we grow. You know, we grew from those things. But some people, it has a negative effect and they grow in the negative direction, but you should have the discernment to figure out which. Right. But it's not like that's why, again, like the red pill philosophy that's being preached this way is very destructive because it's making these black and whites and grouping. All women are like this. Or in fact, they have a thing that's the opposite of it, which is Nawalt, which is not all women are like this, which they say that that's bullshit, but that's actually the, the accurate truth is that not all women are like every single woman that you see bad behavior from.

Nicole [00:44:13]: I'm trying to remember what I was gonna say while you were talking.

John [00:44:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:19]: Oh, I'm glad you brought up the brother and the alcohol sort of thing. The alcoholic father, one brother chose to never drink alcohol and one brother became an alcoholic. Because that's exactly what I'm talking about. When men should hear the things that they hear about women and be the brother that never touches alcohol. But instead the red pill content creators are the alcoholic dad. And majority of these men are becoming addicted to alcohol. They're not viewing it as, okay, I'm not going to touch alcohol. I'm going to be better than that.

John [00:44:56]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:44:57]: They're, they're not using something negative and finding the positive to get what they want, which is a woman.

John [00:45:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:04]: They're hearing all the negatives, which is sending them again down that negative spiral.

John [00:45:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:10]: And so that's why that internal discipline when you hear something like that has to, you have to transform that into a positive. Because when we were talking about this, like, men will go on a date or they'll hear a story and they'll be like, oh, I'm, I'm not gonna go out with women ever again, or like, there's no good women and so they just don't try. Whereas women will encounter actual dates with men that they don't like.

John [00:45:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:40]: And not keep it them from dating. They might stop for a little bit. Right, Right. But they'll be like, okay, well, that guy acted like this. I don't really like that. He's a little rude to the waiter.

John [00:45:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:51]: I don't, I don't want to be with a man that's like that.

John [00:45:53]: They're not like, there's no good men. They're like, why can't I find a good man?

Nicole [00:45:57]: Right, Right.

John [00:45:59]: And there's a big difference in that psychology of like, all, all men are trash and some women do have some women do viewpoint. Right. But there's a difference between all men are trash versus why can I only find trash men?

Nicole [00:46:09]: Right.

John [00:46:09]: That's a different question. Give you a different result. Right. Whereas like you're saying with the red pill, it's like, oh, all women are trash.

Nicole [00:46:16]: Right. And then they don't even try, or.

John [00:46:17]: All western women are trash or whatever it is, and then your passport, bro, and all of that stuff. But it's like, yeah, no, that's not accurate. You Making those blanket statements, right?

Nicole [00:46:27]: And I get that it's harder for men because they're the pursuers, right? But women are also, yes, they can get a date easier, but they're not finding men easier, right? And men being like, well, they can at least get a date that is just settling behavior. Like if you're a man and you're going to end up like Akash, because if you think that just getting a date will get you a wife, right, you will end up with the wrong wife for you every single time. You have to be the same way as them. That like, even though it's harder for you to get a date, right, you still have standards, right? And you back up those standards because you have developed yourself as a man that is highly valuable because a lot of men haven't transformed themselves, right, into actual men, right? That have discipline, that have standards, that hold themselves to those things, right? And so, you know, it's all about their mindset. And the red pill mindset is just destroying men in general. Sorry, I'm like.

John [00:47:41]: No, but no, you're accurate. And I think that's the thing about it. It's like, well, and here's the thing that is why it's appealing is because even like that Guardian clip, there was a lot of propaganda in there and it smelled like as soon as I watched it I'm like, oh, this is because when you try to force feed someone some bullshit, they know it and men know it. And men have been being force fed a lot of bullshit about feminism and society and all of this stuff, right? And so what happens is you got this red pill creator and he's calling it out and he's like, plays the clips of this woman being disrespectful to her husband, right? And that's how you draw them in because they're like, oh yeah, well that's like stop feeding me the bullshit. I can understand that what I'm being fed is here's a guy that's not, that's not, not feeding me the bullshit. And so they get alert into that.

Nicole [00:48:36]: But that's bullshit.

John [00:48:37]: But it's a different bullshit. Exactly, it's hidden bullshit. It's like, because it's like everyone wants the, it's not your fault, Right? Right. It's a victim mindset, right? Instead of taking responsibility. And so what ends up happening is that that's learning because it has some half truths in there, these things even when it has the truth. But the perception, interpretation of the, you know, we can take facts and we can Take interpretations of those facts. And those, those are different, right? Those are subjective. There's objective reality of truth of facts, what happened. Right. And then there's a subjective take on that. What does it mean? And that's, and that's what's, what's important. But.

Nicole [00:49:16]: Well, a lot of these brought that up really quick because I want to talk about the statistics that they love to bring up.

John [00:49:22]: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:49:24]: Again, as a woman, I can hear the same statistic of. What is it? I don't know, the actual statistic. Yeah, whatever the actual statistic of the divorce rate is.

John [00:49:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:37]: I can hear that. And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do everything I can to not be in the higher percentage, which is divorce, that marriage is end in divorce.

John [00:49:46]: Like, and what. And, and also study to learn why did those.

Nicole [00:49:51]: Right, right, exactly. But men hear that and they're like, oh, I shouldn't. And so again, when we talked about this, I said this exact same thing. I'm fine with men caring that much about statistics, but you better care about statistics in every single aspect of your life. You better not get in a car. You better not get in an airplane.

John [00:50:11]: Right?

Nicole [00:50:11]: You better not get in anything. And like, the airplane maybe is, I.

John [00:50:15]: Mean, it's pretty safe, But.

Nicole [00:50:16]: But the car.

John [00:50:17]: But the car, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:50:19]: You better not eat any processed food, right? Because you're statistically way higher to get all sorts of diseases. You better not do any of those statistics.

John [00:50:30]: Right?

Nicole [00:50:30]: Because if you're going to cherry pick which one just based on the percentage higher, so I'm going to do the opposite of that.

John [00:50:37]: Well, look, I mean, here's the big one is like, you know, I'm sure you've heard the statistic. You know, nine out of 10 businesses fail in the first five years.

Nicole [00:50:47]: Yes.

John [00:50:47]: Right. So that's a 90% failure rate. So what kind of idiot starts a business? Some people even use that argument. They're like, you're dumb if you start any business because nine out of ten of them fail. Well, it's like, okay, so is it just straight odds, just luck that determines whether a business failed? I mean, anyone with a logical brain will realize that it's not just luck. It's not like, okay, we just roll the dice, oh, our business failed? No, like 1 out of 10 is doing something the other 9 out of 10 aren't. So even with a 90% failure rate, why would anyone become an entrepreneur?

Nicole [00:51:20]: Right?

John [00:51:20]: Because they've studied the failures of the other businesses and they've studied the success of the successful one and they know how to become a successful one. Right. So you can tell me that 60% of marriages end in divorce and that 95% of divorces are initiated by women. And I'm not going to say, oh, it's a bad bet, you should never get married. Right. I said, I want to say, well, why did they fail? Right, right. How did the ones that succeed, they're like, oh, the ones that succeed didn't even succeed. They're not even happy marriages. They just stayed together. Okay, fine, so there's what then maybe 10 or 20% left that are happy marriages that say together. So let me study them and see how did they succeed? Where did the other ones fail? Right. And then if 95% of, of divorces were initiated by women instead of what was.

Nicole [00:52:09]: I mean, women are more likely to leave than men even though men are unhappy. We know men that have not been happy in their relationships that stay anyway.

John [00:52:17]: Yeah, to a ridiculous degree. To a ridiculous degree. Right. We've been through this with, with several people that we know, not just one. Like several people who ridiculous degree were at. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, yeah. I mean there is. Yeah. But yeah, it's still. I could fall into the statistic of that. Right, so.

Nicole [00:52:36]: Right.

John [00:52:36]: But, but the point is, is that like you have to look in and study the information to figure out because if you, if 95% of women are, are, are initiating divorce, maybe we should figure out why. Like what is it? And how can you be a man that doesn't have that? So maybe it's a matter of filtering of which women you know that, that.

Nicole [00:52:56]: You'Re going to be with.

John [00:52:57]: Or maybe it's like how you behave or maybe what they're looking for that in figuring that stuff out. And that's what is really the key because the statistic thing is like, and that's also like one of the big dangers of the red pill stuff. Like the way that it's projected today is that you talk to a 22 year old kid and he gives you.

Nicole [00:53:17]: All of the statistics the same memorize.

John [00:53:19]: I'm like, do you have any original thoughts of your own? Because I already heard all this stuff because it's, you're just, you're just like a little repeat. Like, like you pull the cord and then it says the same thing. I already know exactly. There's, there's like a 100,000 of you guys that are exactly the same.

Nicole [00:53:35]: That's my.

John [00:53:35]: Like, do you feel like you're not brainwashed if you're repeating the exact same same thing, the same talking points over and over again. It's like sheep. If you give me original thought or at least even tell me your own personal experience, that that validated point. Yeah, but if you're just telling me the statistics that I can hear from, I've heard a hundred times the same exact talking points.

Nicole [00:53:55]: Right.

John [00:53:56]: That you don't have an original thought.

Nicole [00:53:57]: Right there.

John [00:53:58]: Sheep. Right.

Nicole [00:53:59]: So then do you want to be a sheep?

John [00:54:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:01]: No, you want to be a wolf or a lion.

John [00:54:03]: And to be fair, like the same argument goes for feminists, like I've heard the whole propaganda, you know, you've heard it too. And it's that it's sheep on that on either side. But being a free thinker is where you actually evaluate and you say, okay, there's some truth to some of these things. Okay, but here's like, here's what my thoughts are on it.

Nicole [00:54:22]: No, I was going to say that earlier in the thing that also like the extreme feminism is exactly the same problem. Like because it's getting women to hate men.

John [00:54:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:34]: And that. And just because you can cite that men have done these horrible things before, these certain men, that doesn't make all men bad. And the second that you try to convince other women to hate men.

John [00:54:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:51]: And those women actually want to be with a man and want to have a family and want to settle down, you're like furthering the divide.

John [00:55:00]: Right?

Nicole [00:55:00]: Like each extreme is so bad.

John [00:55:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:04]: I think the red pill area though is just scarier because of the violence that these men can get to because they're so angry.

John [00:55:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:14]: These red pill people are making them feel so angry and such the victim that that can push them to do extreme things and end up hurting a lot of people, a lot of innocent people for sure.

John [00:55:26]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:55:26]: Whereas like feminism, I'm not saying is better, but you don't see women like killing men for fun. You know what I mean? Like, like I'm not saying that a woman has never done that.

John [00:55:36]: No, no, no.

Nicole [00:55:36]: But it's not. Yeah, they're not going to go shoot up a place because they're like, yeah, you know, there's no good men left in the world. Like it's not great what they're doing either.

John [00:55:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:47]: But you got to admit that lonely, angry, right. Self isolated men that are chronically online and chronically being fed negative, violent things are dangerous to society as a whole. I just saw a story about a guy who murdered a woman's ex husband and his child and his stepchild and left the woman to like. And then he shot himself.

John [00:56:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:56:22]: Like, like those things happen. Like men will also attack other men.

John [00:56:28]: For sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:30]: Just because he's angry with a woman.

John [00:56:32]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:33]: And so, like, not even men are safe. And that's why, I guess I want men to understand is like, because these men are obviously men are listening to other men, but unfortunately, majority of men are listening to red pill men.

John [00:56:46]: Right. And.

Nicole [00:56:47]: And there needs to be more men like you. And I know you're out here doing this and you've been doing this and it's so important. And it's so important for other men like you to get out there and talk about the things that you're talking about, especially the victim mindset. I know you've been working on that with men for such a long time. And it's so important because if a majority of men followed men like you, Right. Then I also think the feminism issue would be less. It would dwindle so much because they.

John [00:57:18]: Wouldn'T have the fuel for that.

Nicole [00:57:20]: Well, and that's really all that women want. Right.

John [00:57:22]: And here's the thing about it is it's like, like what, what are the values that we represent? Do we believe into the blue pilled feminist society views of whatever that men and women are the same and all of this? We don't. Right. We believe in it.

Nicole [00:57:38]: Like, but like it was just me, right then I realized the benefit of having the polarity and the duality of you handling the masculine things in the right way and being a man of integrity and how important that is and how lacking that is in society and how you taking that masculine stuff off of me and me being able to be super feminine and caring and nurturing to not only our family, but everyone.

John [00:58:09]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:58:10]: Would benefit society as a whole if we had more of that dynamic.

John [00:58:14]: Exactly. Because. Because we believe, right, that a woman should be submissive to a man. The man should be dominant in the relationship. The man should be the authority. She should listen to his authority. Right. In a good way, not in a bad way. Right. We believe that women shouldn't be promiscuous. That's not a good thing. Right. We believe in like these values systems that, that are the opposite. Like, because these guys are fighting against those, those other things. Right. They're like. But we believe that. But we don't believe that because of that, that we need to disparage women or that women are bad or that like, are. We have to be angry and like, you can still have good, traditional, modern values without Being this extreme red pill hating women, hating society, victim blaming. You see what I'm saying? It's like we have the values that most of these guys would agree with, but the way that we're approaching it is in a different constructive way that doesn't dehumanize a person, doesn't devalue a person. Right. That the understanding of why. Of these things should exist the way that they do.

Nicole [00:59:22]: Well, because.

John [00:59:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:59:24]: You've been in the red pill, like you said. I've been, you know, on the more feminist side.

John [00:59:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:31]: And we're choosing this. And we've chose this for a long time. And I can't speak for you, but I think that you're happier this way. I'm happier this way.

John [00:59:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:40]: And it makes a lot more.

John [00:59:41]: Well, like I said, I never agreed to the. Or, you know, believe those. That value system. But, like, this has always been the.

Nicole [00:59:48]: Value system, but you were surrounded by it. You were in there with people who did, you know.

John [00:59:52]: Exactly. Yeah. And became. And it became even worse than. Than what it was when I was there. But, but my point is, is that like this, there. There's not just two choices.

Nicole [01:00:03]: Right, Right.

John [01:00:03]: Like, this is the third choice, you know, of. Of the. But this is the more beneficial one for everybody.

Nicole [01:00:11]: Yeah, yeah.

John [01:00:11]: Because. Because a lot of people are like, oh, well, you guys are dumb. Because, like, you don't understand, like, this stuff about. No, we. Yeah, that's the point. It's like, we get it and we fight against it, but the way that we fight against it is a different way. It's a constructive, uplifting way of fighting against. Of. You can be better. Because we talk about the smut novels and we talk about all the stuff that. The destructive stuff that women do in society. We've had whole episodes where we've talked about women being controlling with the Mormon wives thing and double standards and all of this stuff. So we're aware of those things. Right. But we're also aware of the things that the men are doing that need to be fixed and changed and to be a leader. But like, if you want to have that kind of relationship where you have, you know, a woman respecting your authority as a man, you have to be a respectable man. It doesn't make sense. Like what? Like, if you're like, I want a submissive wife that's going to submit to me and trust me as an authority and the leader of the house. Right. But then you are talking shit about how women are thoughts and. And hoes over there and like, how is that going to happen? Because what woman is going to be like, oh, yeah, I trust this guy with my life.

Nicole [01:01:25]: Right.

John [01:01:25]: Like, like he can make decisions for me and I would trust whatever decision he's going to make.

Nicole [01:01:30]: Sure. But then by a comment or he's.

John [01:01:33]: Saying all this stuff about, you know what I'm saying, and having the victim mindset. That's not. So those things you see, like, they very want they can't have. Because even, you know, guys like, like Myron, that are like, oh, women deserve less. And this woman, like a man should be this, like, he's got some of these, these values. Right. That we have in terms of like saying deserve less.

Nicole [01:01:56]: What?

John [01:01:57]: Like that's his book. Like, of, of everything.

Nicole [01:01:59]: He has a book.

John [01:02:00]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [01:02:01]: It's called Women Deserve Less.

John [01:02:03]: That's, that's what it's called. Yeah, but, but we're not here to make fun of, you know. But my point. I get the ridiculousness. But. But my, my point, My point is, is that someone like him, like, has those same, same talking points about how a man should be an authority in their relationship. Right. However, it comes from two different perspectives.

Nicole [01:02:28]: Come from power with him versus comes from servant leadership.

John [01:02:33]: Right. Which we'll talk about in the next episode. Because that's what we were gonna. But, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's the thing is that like what we're, what we're. We're not naive. Like, we, we understand the, the trash that society feeds you, but we also understand that this is trash.

Nicole [01:02:50]: I guess my last question that we don't have to answer. I want people, if they make it this far, to answer in the comments and maybe based on their comments, we'll do another episode.

John [01:03:01]: Sure.

Nicole [01:03:02]: On this sort of thing because I'm sure there's a lot more we could hit on that we didn't. But why aren't men doing what it takes to be a man anymore? That's what I want to know from men. I want to, I want to understand. And I mean, you could answer if you want. As long as it's not super long because we're over. But.

John [01:03:22]: Well, I'll just flip it in and say, like, what if you ask the question of. Because. Right. Devil's advocate here is why are women not doing what they need to do?

Nicole [01:03:31]: Because they don't have anyone. It's exactly what you said. They don't have anyone that they look up to enough to lead them. And so they can't just be feminine and vulnerable on their own. Or around the wrong man. That's very. That's the worst is being vulnerable around the wrong man. And so, again, I'm. I'm not saying that women can't be more feminine on their own in certain ways. And I, again, I do think that society is kind of going more towards that, if I'm being honest.

John [01:04:01]: Right.

Nicole [01:04:02]: I have seen less of, like, the super feminist extreme push and more of, like, women doing traditional feminine things. And, you know, a lot more women want to stay home and be, you know, more traditional and cook and do stuff for their family. But the reality is, is that women will always be a little hardened and a little tougher.

John [01:04:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:26]: Without men to protect them. And so. And like you said, if a man's like, oh, I want a woman to be submissive and I'll protect my family, and he's like, yelling at people, calling people thoughts, that. That's an easily triggered man. That's not a safe man. Like, he's not protecting her in the right way. And so I'm not saying this to put it all on men, but if you want to be a leader, it is on you.

John [01:04:54]: Right. Well, look, hey, this is actually a good. You just made me think of this because I always talk about how women. A woman is a reflection of the man in her life. Right. Women in society are a reflection of men in society. It's true. Right.

Nicole [01:05:14]: Yeah.

John [01:05:15]: So it is on men, because as a man being the leader. Right. Like, like, where did it. We got here?

Nicole [01:05:22]: Yeah.

John [01:05:22]: From men being weak.

Nicole [01:05:24]: Right. And now women are stepping up and they're like, okay, I'll be the man. And that's why they're more masculine and they go towards more the feminist side because men are over here in the. I'm the victim, poor me.

John [01:05:34]: Right.

Nicole [01:05:35]: Women deserve less. Give me the princess treatment.

John [01:05:38]: Yeah. I hope what we're communicating doesn't communicate as disparaging men, because I don't feel like it does. No, we're not saying that men are bad. We're not saying. Right. We're saying, like, you, you can be the man.

Nicole [01:05:48]: Be the wolf.

John [01:05:49]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:05:49]: Like, work on the personal things that you have control over, no matter what you look like, no matter what kind of man you are, no matter how tall you are, no matter if you have abs or not.

John [01:05:58]: Right.

Nicole [01:05:58]: You can work on being the best man.

John [01:06:02]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:02]: And that will get you the most success. And even if. And honestly, you shouldn't be focused on women, because if you're focused on that.

John [01:06:09]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:10]: And you mean that. And you have the discipline and you're doing what it takes and you have the standards, the rest will work itself out in the time it's supposed to. And you have to have trust in that.

John [01:06:19]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:19]: Because I think when you commit to doing that, to being the best version and to taking negative and making it positive, finding the good in everything, finding a way to make it work even when the path looks like you can't get down the path to. What does Tony Robbins say, like, carve your own path. You're going to find a way or I'm going to make a way.

John [01:06:37]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:37]: If you have that mindset, you will get everything that you want as a man.

John [01:06:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:06:42]: But if you lay down and you just follow the herd like the red pill cult, you're brainwashed. You're not even thinking for yourself anymore. Yeah. You will. You will be sad and alone and have no woman ever.

John [01:06:58]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [01:06:59]: That's the reality. And like, the thing is, you can get out at any time. The second you decide that you're going to change who you are and be better and make a way, no matter what.

John [01:07:10]: Well, it's just like, like I said, I mean, the biggest thing is, is whether it's on either side is the fighting against the victim mindset. That's the one thing that will bury you no matter who you are in life is because you're. When you're spending expelling energy and time, expending energy and time on things that are outside of yourself, in your control, you're just wasting it. And whereas all that time and energy is focused on actually improving yourself, you will get a result. And that's the key piece of it is that's why it's like it doesn't matter what other people are doing. It doesn't matter what society is doing. You can be aware of these things, but it has to be only so that you know what to improve in yourself or how to build yourself in such a way to be able to, you know, to, to thrive in this.

Nicole [01:08:03]: Right.

John [01:08:03]: Environment.

Nicole [01:08:04]: Right. If you want a wife, make it happen. Be the man that any woman would love to be with. And I'm not talking physically whatsoever.

John [01:08:13]: Right.

Nicole [01:08:13]: Be the man.

John [01:08:15]: Yeah. All right, well, that's. Did that. We hit all of the, the points that you had.

Nicole [01:08:21]: For now, like I said, I, I'm curious to see what other people comment and where we could maybe touch on other things, but I think we did pretty good job.

John [01:08:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:08:29]: Talking about it. So I guess our other thing, it wasn't like a. Well, I guess it was a conflict but yeah, it was more of like you were dealing with me being stubborn in a way. We had a talk the other night, and you basically showed me how I was treating you differently because of the version of you that I anticipated you would be.

John [01:09:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:09:04]: Is that a good way to describe it?

John [01:09:06]: Yeah. Like, I. I say that it was, like, mischaracterizing me, almost like accusing me of, like, punch me for the crime before I even committed the crime.

Nicole [01:09:18]: Right.

John [01:09:18]: Like, that was what it was basically.

Nicole [01:09:20]: Like, I would assume that you were going to react a certain way and not even allow to have whatever reaction you would have, and I would just assume it would be a bad one and then treating me like my reaction off of that, like, as if it already happened, like you said.

John [01:09:33]: Yeah. As, like a protective mechanism.

Nicole [01:09:35]: Yeah. I didn't even realize I was doing it. It wasn't in a malicious way, and I wasn't. And honestly, had we not been in such a deep discussion, I don't. I genuinely don't think I even noticed I was doing it.

John [01:09:49]: Right.

Nicole [01:09:50]: Because it wasn't malicious. It was a protection mechanism.

John [01:09:53]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [01:09:55]: That I learned a long time ago. It doesn't make it okay. And I'm glad that we had the conversation in order for me to be aware that it was happening because it was so subconscious.

John [01:10:06]: Right.

Nicole [01:10:07]: That it didn't even register, really. Unless I, like, really looked at what you were saying and not be defensive about it. Because I feel like it is easy for me to be defensive at times, especially when you're telling me, like, hey, you're treating me like this, or, you know, like. Like I'm acting a certain way, but I really listened to what you had to say.

John [01:10:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:10:34]: And realized that you were right, that I was doing that and it wasn't fair to you, and I wouldn't want you to treat me that way. And so it definitely wasn't fair for me to do that to you as well. And I was kind of robbing you of the opportunity to make your own decisions and have your own reactions by me, just assuming you're gonna react in the worst way. Not like the worst way, but you know what I mean? Like, in a way that would be your quote. Worst way.

John [01:11:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:11:07]: Like, you know, you would get upset with me or, you know, whatever. Like, that's not even. I don't want to say worst way because it sounds like you would yell at me or something, but you wouldn't even do that. It would just be like me thinking that you're going to be upset. So then I Would, like, try to protect myself from you being upset before you even were upset because you didn't even know that all this was going on in my head.

John [01:11:29]: Yeah, it's like when. When someone's like, oh, yeah, I didn't. I didn't tell you because I knew you were going to react this way. And it's like, give me a. Like, yeah, like, it's very unfair to, like, you know, it's like to. To treat someone in a negative way that hasn't actually done the negative thing. Yeah, like, to. To, like, think. It's like thinking poorly of someone. You know, somebody.

Nicole [01:11:52]: Right.

John [01:11:53]: And it comes down to.

Nicole [01:11:53]: But I liked. I didn't view it.

John [01:11:55]: No, it wasn't.

Nicole [01:11:55]: Yeah, that's why, like, yeah, exactly. This ended up being a long conversation because it's like, I don't think of you poorly.

John [01:12:00]: Right.

Nicole [01:12:02]: I just would think that I had to prepare myself to protect myself.

John [01:12:07]: Right.

Nicole [01:12:08]: Well, it was like, whatever.

John [01:12:09]: It was like the example that I gave you that I think helped you to see it was because you were sick, like, on Sunday night, and we need to take our daughter to. To dance or to pick her up from dance and I. And normally we would go together. And I told you that. No, like, don't even worry about it. I'll, like, you know, you're like, oh, you're like, are you sure? No, no, you stay home. It's no problem at all for me. And I went and drove and picked her up as a favor to you to make it so that you could just go relax and not have to worry. And then I said to you, I think. I was like, well, when I got in the car and I left, what were you thinking about me? And you're like, I was thinking. And I finished the sentence because I already knew what it was going to be because I was trying to illustrate that point. And you were think. Thinking some of the. Something along the lines of, like, he's probably resenting that I have. That he has to go and do this. And like. And it was like.

Nicole [01:13:08]: Or it was a test that I should have went. Even though I'm sick and even though you told me I didn't need to go.

John [01:13:14]: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, those are kind of negative. Whereas I'm sitting and driving in the car and I'm like, oh, she must think I'm the most wonderful husband in the world because I did this for her. And it's like, you're thinking bad things about me when I'm doing something good for you. And that was like. I was like, can you imagine how hurtful that is? Like, when a person makes a sacrifice, like, does something specifically for you, and then you ascribe, like, a negative nature to it. It's like it's a double hurt because they had to do the thing to make the sacrifice. And then instead of getting credit for it, they're actually being discredited for it. Like assuming what. What's going on in the person's head.

Nicole [01:13:55]: So, yeah, it's like a hyper vigilance thing too, as well. Part of it, it's like, is someone upset and they're just not telling me? And I take on that responsibility to, like, try to figure it out, even if they don't say it. But then, like you said, I end up assuming that they are and then treating them that way or reacting as if they are. And I don't know.

John [01:14:19]: Right.

Nicole [01:14:20]: But yeah, the main thing is, like, I don't want to treat you that way. And also, too, I need to not feel responsible for other people's reactions. Like, you're an adult, you can tell me if you're upset.

John [01:14:34]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:14:34]: It's not my responsibility to assume. But I grew up that way. Like, you know, not knowing, you know, if someone's upset or what's gonna happen.

John [01:14:43]: And you gotta. Yeah.

Nicole [01:14:45]: And that anticipate. Right. And that was a survival mechanism back then. So that's why I'm like.

John [01:14:50]: Especially when you're around people who drink a lot too. Like, because you don't know what their reaction. Their behavior is going. It's erratic.

Nicole [01:14:56]: Right.

John [01:14:56]: Like, some. Now they're upset.

Nicole [01:14:58]: Right. So, yeah, you don't know. You could say the wrong thing and set them off, so.

John [01:15:02]: Right.

Nicole [01:15:03]: And so I think I too, didn't, like, have anyone really back then I could, like, fully trust.

John [01:15:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:15:10]: Like, that was predictable, you know, Like, I'm not saying I couldn't trust my parents, but in a way, an emotional. Right. Emotional way. Yes, an emotional way. And so I just always was very, like, oh, well, it's all on me and I gotta protect myself and I gotta, you know, figure this out and I gotta be able to pick up on when people are upset or not and deal with that. And that was never my responsibility, but I internalized it. And then. So when you brought this up, I realized I kind of been doing this to probably everybody without even really knowing, like, realizing it. Like, really. And so that's why I kept thanking you for bringing this up, because I want to know these things and I want to fix these Things. And I don't want to treat people this way.

John [01:15:56]: And I think it was good, like, what you had told me before about, like, how I brought it up. Right. It was like we were able to have that conversation where I wasn't combative or aggressive towards you about it.

Nicole [01:16:09]: And I felt like you wanted to help me and work through this with me.

John [01:16:12]: Right.

Nicole [01:16:12]: Like, I felt like it was us against it, this problem.

John [01:16:15]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:16:16]: And that's what people say to do in relationships, but, man, I don't think people actually do it unless, like you said, unless you're not combative and not aggressive when you're talking about it.

John [01:16:27]: Right.

Nicole [01:16:28]: I can't see it happening because that's the only time, really, is when we can interact like that, that I feel like we're working together. And I did feel supported by you while you were telling me hard truth, even though I was still resisting them. You know, I think it was still that, like, protecting myself thing inside of me that wanted to, like, keep going, but that's like, the weaker part of me is wanting to defend that.

John [01:16:56]: Right.

Nicole [01:16:56]: Like, I'm strong enough now to not have to deal with things in the way that I was.

John [01:17:00]: And it's not like you're less inclined to defend it. Like, you've made improvements on there for sure. If I am approaching it in a vulnerable way, because my way of communicating it to you was that example. I was like, how much do you think it would hurt me while I was driving in the car to know what you were actually thinking about me? Right, Right. It's like, boom, that hits home. Because it's vulnerable. As opposed to me being upset and being like, I can't believe you were thinking that about me while I'm driving in the car, doing you a favor. And then you're thinking about that. Me. Do you not understand how disrespectful that is? Like, if I come across that way, it's the same thing, but it's a different way worse. It's. Well, like, it's like, it's a more. It's a combative, aggressive way as opposed to the vulnerable way, which is not a weak. You know, it's like. Of like, do you understand how this would hurt me?

Nicole [01:17:52]: Right.

John [01:17:52]: Like, in this situation, if I knew what you were thinking, you know?

Nicole [01:17:54]: No. Vulnerable. That gets to you is the strong way. And that's what I had to tell myself. Is that the way I was trying to protect myself?

John [01:18:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:18:03]: Or react right. To the things the way before, the way that you brought up to me. Was weak.

John [01:18:08]: Right.

Nicole [01:18:09]: Me being vulnerable and not having to protect myself in that way is the strong thing to do, and I need to do that. That.

John [01:18:17]: Right.

Nicole [01:18:18]: Moving forward. But.

John [01:18:19]: Yeah, but that's. But that's. I think that's just a good communication in general. It's just like. Like I said, and I appreciate you bringing that to my attention so that I could use it in. In the conversation to. To help you to see the thing that.

Nicole [01:18:32]: Yeah, no, it really helps me a lot.

John [01:18:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:18:35]: And I would not be the person I am without you, that's for sure.

John [01:18:39]: Thank you. Likewise. As I said in the last episode.

Nicole [01:18:43]: But that's why we're better than perfect, because we're, you know, we're here for each other and we want to help each other and we want to grow individually and together.

John [01:18:52]: Yeah. All right, well, let's wrap this one up. And if you have a question for us, comment, whatever. You can go to betterthanperfectpod.com to subscribe to the episode episodes and leave a comment there or send us an email or email us@betterthanperfectpodcastgmail.com.

Nicole [01:19:09]: Follow us on social media.

John [01:19:11]: Yeah, we'll see you next week.