Nicole [00:00:00]: The way that people are using the therapy speak and things like that, honestly, is creating a further divide because, again, it does nothing but blame other people.

John [00:00:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:00:09]: The weird thing is, is that people use the terms to attack someone else to, like you said, shield themselves and kind of come across as they're not attacking somebody because they're using the right words.

John [00:00:20]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:00:22]: But they don't realize that you're attacking somebody. Like, even if you're using therapy terms that seem innocent, and you can't be so seen as attacking them with those.

John [00:00:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:00:32]: You are beyond the perfect we discover.

John [00:00:36]: Through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:02]: I didn't do anything.

John [00:01:03]: I know. I had to look to see. Like, I couldn't do my peripheral vision because I'm like, what is she doing anything?

Nicole [00:01:10]: Yeah, that's right. Switched it up.

John [00:01:12]: Yeah. So what are we. What are we talking about? This is a topic you came up with. I mean, we're all just, like, trying to come up with topics, but. Yeah. No, what was the topic?

Nicole [00:01:23]: It was about therapy speak fatigue. Are we over diagnosing each other?

John [00:01:28]: Okay.

Nicole [00:01:29]: And this is about couples, but I think it's about people in general.

John [00:01:32]: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:01:33]: Honestly.

John [00:01:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:34]: So, yeah, I mean, one of the points was when couples start weaponizing terms like gaslighting our narcissistic tendencies.

John [00:01:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:46]: Which, like, we don't necessarily do these things. And I think it's because we have realized the therapy speak kind of COVID up that a lot of people do at this point, unfortunately. And so we don't typically use these things against each other.

John [00:02:07]: You're a narcissist.

Nicole [00:02:08]: Right. We never say, stop gaslighting me. Yeah. But we do know people that do use those terms and things like that. And so, yeah, just talking about how, honestly, in my opinion.

John [00:02:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:26]: This is worse than how things were before.

John [00:02:30]: Yeah, exactly. I agree with you. Yes. Before people had these terms. Right, Right.

Nicole [00:02:34]: Like a woman, like, when they just said ridiculous stuff, it's like you knew who that person was. Now, unfortunately, a lot of the people that use therapy speak are using it in a bad way.

John [00:02:48]: Yeah. It's disguising.

Nicole [00:02:50]: Yes.

John [00:02:51]: Because you don't know who the actual enemy is.

Nicole [00:02:53]: Right. And they're trying to present like they're not, but they are weaponizing it. Weaponizing is a good word because they're learning These terms and learning how to manipulate them in order to appear correct where no one can tell them they're wrong because then the therapy terms would be wrong.

John [00:03:16]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They're hiding behind it.

Nicole [00:03:18]: Right. And so I honestly think it's worse. I think it is keeping people stuck in bad habits and tendencies that they're now masking with these things. They're not actually fixing them like therapy was supposed to be, to help you figure out what struggles you have and how you can change the things that you're doing in order to overcome them or live with them, but live more normally.

John [00:03:46]: It's supposed to be about you, not about other people.

Nicole [00:03:49]: Right.

John [00:03:50]: And so it's like if a therapist, like, let's take narcissism, right? Like, to understand that is only to apply it to yourself is to see when you have narcissistic tendencies.

Nicole [00:04:02]: Right.

John [00:04:02]: But you don't get to put that on other people like that. Like it's useful. Narcissism, like understanding narcissism is useful.

Nicole [00:04:09]: Right.

John [00:04:10]: Only when applied to the self.

Nicole [00:04:12]: Yeah.

John [00:04:12]: It's not useful because you, you are the only person who can know if you're a narcissist.

Nicole [00:04:16]: Right.

John [00:04:17]: You can't know other people are narcissists.

Nicole [00:04:19]: Right. Because you don't know everything about them.

John [00:04:21]: You know, you can throw that. Like, like there's a lot. Sometimes you can have a lot of evidence, but even still, you. You really can't know. But you can know for yourself.

Nicole [00:04:32]: You're saying this because I feel like.

John [00:04:33]: I. Yeah, because we know some. But, but, yeah, but, but like if a therapist is telling you that you have that, like you know about narcissism and you're having. You're displaying some narcissistic tendencies, then you can self reflect and say that.

Nicole [00:04:48]: Right? Right.

John [00:04:48]: Or. Or even if a therapist, I guess a therapist might say that someone is gaslighting you, but then again, it's not meant to weaponize, to use against them to say you're gaslighting me. It's for you to recognize that you're being told.

Nicole [00:05:01]: Happening.

John [00:05:01]: Right. You're being told a version of the truth that you're buying, right. As opposed to, you know, you, you using that to, to let people know that they're gas. That's not the, like, the boundary is the thing to have because we. The. The. Was it the boundaries versus pathologies? Pathologizing. Pathologizing, yeah. See, now you got it.

Nicole [00:05:26]: Apologizing.

John [00:05:27]: Yeah, but. Yeah, but that's the thing is that people are using these terms and Then you're right. Then they hide behind it well, and.

Nicole [00:05:36]: Then they're like, you're bad. Because the issue is, like, people didn't want to go to therapy because they didn't want to look like something was wrong with them. Now everybody goes to therapy and uses the terms to prove how everyone else is bad and there's something wrong with them.

John [00:05:49]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:05:50]: But you're the one in therapy stealing the terms and being like, you're a narcissist. You're gaslighting.

John [00:05:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:57]: Does that make sense?

John [00:05:58]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:59]: Like you said, it's supposed to be about you therapy. You're supposed to go in to work on stuff that you're dealing with, not go in there and learn words and be like, oh, you're a narcissist, because you have this, this, and this.

John [00:06:14]: Or, like, it'd be the same thing as someone's watching this podcast and then they go to their spouse and they say, you need to watch this episode. Because, see, in Better Than Perfect Podcast, they're talking about exactly what you're doing, which is not right. It's like, no, if you're watching this, this is for you to fix your shit. It's not for you to go and take it and use it to beat someone with. That doesn't solve problems.

Nicole [00:06:39]: I mean, you could be like, let's watch it together. But don't be like, you're doing all these things wrong. You. You need to watch this video.

John [00:06:45]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:06:47]: Yeah, yeah. It's. Again, it's like the same sort of.

John [00:06:50]: Yeah, that's what they're. It's also like the. The. You take away the actual severity of the thing. It's like when people. What was it that they're misusing? And it takes away the. Of. Of like, sexual harassment for. For example. Right. Or like. Or it was something around sexual harassment. I forget that we were having this discussion, and it's like, well, yeah, but when you use it so widely, like, so lightly, then you take away from people who have actually been victimized. Like, you know, like. Or if you're claiming something is like, I'm not even gonna say the one word. But we have this, you know, culture that people say it's like, taboo. We're playing taboo right now. You know, it's like, it's a blank culture. Right? People use that. When you use that, you're actually doing a big disservice to people who have experienced the thing, because you're making light of it as if it's everywhere. And people Are like, this is a. It's like, no, this is a traumatic thing and you're making it too normalized, too light by using that word lightly. Don't use these words lightly. Like, narcissism is one in the therapy. It's like, yeah, someone could really be a narcissist, but if you're calling everybody and their mom a narcissist because they disagree with you or they did unselfish thing, then it doesn't have any effectiveness. And then when someone actually is trying to use this to really wake you up or in therapy, then it doesn't mean anything. It should be a word. Or even manipulation is a word too, where it's like, oh, you're emotionally manipulating me if someone really is calling that out. But if you're crying that about every single thing everyone says, then now you.

Nicole [00:08:35]: Don'T have, like, it.

John [00:08:36]: Exactly. Now you don't have a level to go that's to indicate the thing because you're using it all the time. So now what's the next. There's no level. Like, it should be like gaslighting. Same thing. It's just like, okay, are you just not. Are you just hearing things that you don't like or someone really actually telling you stuff that is making you, like, question yourself and they're trying to use this to manipulate you, to alter your sense of reality?

Nicole [00:09:04]: Right.

John [00:09:04]: If they're really doing that, then, yeah, call it out as gaslighting. But if there, if, if all these other lower things that you're calling gaslighting, then when you actually say gaslighting when they're actually happening, you can't tell the difference because you're using the same word.

Nicole [00:09:19]: Right.

John [00:09:19]: You know, that's, that's my biggest issue is that you're using the same word. But that should be a severe word.

Nicole [00:09:25]: Right? But it's like a, It's. That's what it should actually be. Not like a scale of it. Like a lower end of the scale. You know what I mean?

John [00:09:33]: That's why I didn't like when people are saying even the word financial abuse, right? Because I'm like, you're making light of abuse. Abuse is a serious word.

Nicole [00:09:43]: Right?

John [00:09:43]: Right. Like physically abused, verbally abused. Those are serious things. Especially physically abusing someone or sexually abusing someone. Right. When you say financial abuse, you're taking this powerful word and you're diluting it because, yes, someone might be doing financially something that you don't like or whatever, but now you're taking away the power from that word. For situations where it's actually meaningful. And even just using the word abuse, because people will say, oh, you're abusing me. This is abuse. Yeah. Is it really, though? Because if you're just throwing that word around, you're making light of the word. And now we don't have a word that describes the actual thing. So you're taking power away from the people that need to actually describe what's actually happening to them.

Nicole [00:10:29]: Right. Well, I think what we're actually doing, like you said, is mislabeling things, like you said. And so everybody is held to this, like, criminal offense.

John [00:10:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:44]: Even if they didn't do what people are claiming that they're doing.

John [00:10:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:49]: It's like we have lost all capacity, which I like. Raquel, the therapist that's online, she talks about capacity. Because that's the real issue here, is, like, we went from no one was in therapy and people really needed therapy to now everyone is. But now it's made nobody accountable for themselves. It's made everybody point fingers and blame other people.

John [00:11:13]: Right. Which is the.

Nicole [00:11:14]: Even with parenting.

John [00:11:16]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:11:17]: You know, people are afraid to actually discipline and parent their kids because what if their kids, like, that's abusive or something, you know what I mean? And like you said, someone's gonna hear the word, especially, like an authoritative figure, and it's gonna be like, oh, we need to investigate this or something. And then it's just. They just didn't like that. Like, we're teaching our kids in the younger generation these words that they don't truly mean and that they are using in ways that they shouldn't be used a lot of the time. I'm not saying all the time, but a lot of the time. And then nobody can actually handle anything that's going on. That's also why we're so divided and there's so much hate against each other, is because we're constantly trying to blame the other person. And now we're using therapy words, which are supposed to be to help people, but now we're using them to harm people, and they are harming people and they're harming us. Because if you're actually focused on bettering yourself and working through whatever issues that you have, you're not gonna be weaponizing the words used to help yourself. You're not going to take those and figure out a way to hurt other people with them. Therapy is supposed to be about helping people, but majority of the stuff you see these days, especially online, is harming people.

John [00:12:43]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:44]: And even going into therapy and then your therapist is like, oh, yeah, that person's a narcissist or whatever. That's not helping you either.

John [00:12:52]: No, it doesn't. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:12:54]: And I'm not saying all therapists are like that, but I'm like, even the therapists now are, like, trying to validate the person by labeling other people that they know nothing about.

John [00:13:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:07]: And in order to try to help this person. But even validating everything Right. Has caused problems.

John [00:13:14]: Well, because people think that they're entitled to have everyone validate their emotions, which is not true. Like, in a relationship, I'm gonna validate your emotions. Cause we're in a relationship. But it would be unreasonable for me or you to expect people who are not in our relationship to randomly validate our emotions just because we have them. Right. But this is the expectation that people have for therapy.

Nicole [00:13:37]: I think, too, it's not even validating. I think that they don't even understand that someone can validate your emotions.

John [00:13:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:44]: And you still not get what you want. Because I think the issue is.

John [00:13:48]: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:49]: Is people hear validate, even. And they think, okay, well, if I tell somebody they didn't validate my emotions, then they need to agree with me in order for me to feel validated.

John [00:14:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:01]: That's not the same.

John [00:14:02]: That's not emotional validation.

Nicole [00:14:03]: Right. That's not the same.

John [00:14:05]: But there's two different things here. Because I'm even saying, like, to one level higher, it's like, okay, when you're in the real world and your boss doesn't validate your emotions. Really actually doesn't tough. Like, you have to deal with not everyone validating your emotions.

Nicole [00:14:19]: Right. But now they can't because they've created this standard of everybody has to validate my emotions, including going to therapy and having the therapist do it. When that's not how the real. That's what I was trying to say is that if we went back to how it was, not way far back, where there's generational trauma and parents are treating their kids the way that they treated and, like, you know, not really reflecting inward. Because I feel like you and I, we don't run into this problem because we reflect inward, but not in a. I'm gonna use the word manipulative, but that is what this has become with this stuff. Like. Because if I was like, you're gaslighting me. You're acting like a narcissist. That would be me manipulating you.

John [00:15:03]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:04]: In the situation.

John [00:15:05]: Yeah. Unless it's. Unless it's very accurate.

Nicole [00:15:08]: Right. Like, unless it's super specific.

John [00:15:09]: And I think it's like, okay, this thing that you just said, that's manipulative. Like, this is why. Like, this is emotional manipulation.

Nicole [00:15:17]: But even then, you probably wouldn't even acknowledge it. So it's like, you have to. Again, you would have to know that for yourself.

John [00:15:22]: But if I'm like the boy who cried wolf and all the. Oh, that's emotional manipulation. Let's move it. Like, then what does it mean? Like. Like it doesn't have any meaning because you're just crying it all the time. But if it's like. No, no, look, look. What you just said to me was. Was manipulative and here's why. And like, which you have told me those things before. Only when it's really right.

Nicole [00:15:43]: Okay, but I don't say that.

John [00:15:44]: I don't just throw that around all the time. It's like something specific that you've said, and I just am pointing out to you why this is manipulative. And then you get it, and it makes, you know what I'm saying, That's using it not the right way. I'm not beating you over the head. That's how it's supposed to be. Exactly. Because I'm not beating you over the head with it. I'm trying to help to understand so that it doesn't happen.

Nicole [00:16:04]: Right. But now it's used as a weapon, literally. Like, and like I said before, it's, in my opinion, the scariest weapon. Because on the outside, if people saw the interaction, they'd be like, oh, they didn't do anything wrong. Cause they're using therapy terms. Which, again, if they're wrong for using those terms, then therapy is wrong because they're using terms from this thing that's supposed to be what everyone needs and helps them.

John [00:16:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:36]: And so they literally learn it to get away with doing the bad things.

John [00:16:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:44]: That they should be wanting to try to unlearn.

John [00:16:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:47]: But they just learned how to do them better and more under the scenes. Yeah.

John [00:16:54]: Because it's like you. You tell your partner, you're like, you're a narcissist, and then they say, stop gaslighting me.

Nicole [00:17:00]: Right.

John [00:17:00]: Because you are kind of gaslighting them if you're telling them they're a narcissist.

Nicole [00:17:04]: Right.

John [00:17:04]: Because when that's not. You're not a. You know, you don't have evidence. Like, you know, it's. You're lightly using that word.

Nicole [00:17:10]: Right.

John [00:17:11]: So then. And then.

Nicole [00:17:12]: And then where does your conversation go?

John [00:17:14]: Yeah. And that's like, well, you're using gaslighting as a manipulation.

Nicole [00:17:17]: Right.

John [00:17:17]: Okay, well, then, like, you could just keep on going back and forth and not really talk about anything.

Nicole [00:17:21]: Right, Right. Because exactly. It's. It becomes shallow. Weirdly enough, therapy is supposed to be going deep.

John [00:17:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:27]: But because we use these words this way.

John [00:17:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:30]: Like you said, the conversations have become so shallow.

John [00:17:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:34]: Because you're just labeling everything. And even with therapy, labeling was not supposed to be like, oh, hi, I'm Nicole. I have anxiety. No, it was supposed to be like, hi, I'm Nicole. And, like, I get anxious flying on airplanes. So this is what I do in order to fly on an airplane.

John [00:17:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:51]: Not, like, labeling my identity. Right, exactly. And, like, with all the therapy terms, there's also become all these diagnosises that we're diagnosing ourselves with, and then people are identifying with those, and so then they're not actually getting better.

John [00:18:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:18:10]: And then they want people to do whatever they want because they have this. And then now they have the terms, too. Like, oh, you're. You know, you're not validating my experience.

John [00:18:22]: Right? Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:18:23]: What does that even mean?

John [00:18:24]: This is the whole thing we've talked about before. We've had to talk about this with our daughter. But it's like, you're coming over to my house, jumping in my pool. You don't know how to swim, and you're drowning, and then I'm throwing you a life preserver, and then you're like, I don't want it. Don't come. Fine. If you're not going to take the life preserver, don't come over to my house, jump in my pool and drown. You've got the problem. So if you're like, oh, well, I'm bipolar, or I'm whatever it is, okay. Then you learn how to manage that. Don't expect that everyone else has to accommodate you, and you come over and drown in their pools. And now it's their problem. It's your problem.

Nicole [00:19:08]: It's supposed to be like, you learning how to face the world in a way that doesn't allow these things to control your life. But it's like they're using those things to control other people's lives. Does that make sense?

John [00:19:19]: Exactly. You have to accommodate.

Nicole [00:19:21]: That's the problem that I have. And this is coming from. Because people probably will say whatever they want to say, but this is coming from two people here that highly value working on themselves and will own up to the things that they do wrong and take accountability. That is how you're actually supposed to do it. That is how therapy is supposed to work. Like, you're supposed to talk about the things. Your therapist is supposed to talk to you in a way where you realize the issues that you have and help you figure out how to face the world with those things in a way where you're changing how you go about doing things. Not you changing other people or trying.

John [00:20:06]: To change the world to adapt to you.

Nicole [00:20:07]: Right? And it's just unfortunately been used for bad for quite a while now, which upsets me because it was this thing that everybody's like, oh, yeah, go to therapy. It'll help heal your problems and fix all these things. And I do believe it's capable of doing those things right if. But too many people are in therapy who don't want to actually do the work right?

John [00:20:35]: And they want to use it out. Like I said. Well, it hinders your relationship, right? Because also, even, like, defensiveness, like, if you just like, if. If everything your partner says, you're like, you're being defensive, right? Okay, Sometimes that is true. But if you're using that all the time, then it's like, okay, well, I can't say anything, right? Because you're just gonna say, I'm defensive. Like, if you ask me a question, right? Like, why did you do this? And I'm like, well, I did this because stop being defensive.

Nicole [00:21:00]: Right?

John [00:21:00]: It's like, okay, then you ask, like, I can't communicate to you, right? Or if it's like, oh.

Nicole [00:21:04]: Which we've even run into that before.

John [00:21:06]: We've run into that.

Nicole [00:21:07]: But that's not therapy speaking. It's not like using a.

John [00:21:10]: When you need to, like, be like, okay, look, this is why you're being defensive. Like, again, even the same thing. Like, if it's like, you have to explain to someone why they're very manipulative or why they're being defensive. You can't just throw it around all the time, because then there's no. That's the problem is, like, you're hurting the communication. Right, Right. By labeling.

Nicole [00:21:30]: Yeah.

John [00:21:31]: Whereas it's like, just deal with the thing if you need to. Like, you only need to label it if it's like a pattern that keeps on occurring and you need a word for it in order to describe it so they can see it.

Nicole [00:21:41]: Right? Because we all get anxious, we all get depressed. We all get these things. But if you call yourself those things, now you're taking it on, and now you are identifying with it. And then you're gonna have a way different experience just than being like, oh, I'm feeling anxious right now because, you know, this, this and that, or, you know, I've been a little depressed lately, but maybe there's something that I can do to help with that. You know what I mean? That's way different. And that's what therapy is supposed to.

John [00:22:06]: To be.

Nicole [00:22:06]: Like, even when I was in therapy, I didn't want my therapist to just be like, oh, yeah, you're right. Like everybody, whatever, you know, she would be like, hey, don't you think that maybe that this is a pattern and like, this is something we could work on? That's what I want. Yeah, but that's not what, what people want when they're using therapy words to.

John [00:22:27]: Attack people and it shields them because people. How many times have you heard people say, I just, I was manic at the time or I was having a manic episode and that's why I did what I did, or I behaved this way and it's like, okay, it's like an excuse if you, if you think that if. That maybe, you know, you probably self diagnosed, but even if you got a diagnosis from a psychiatrist, which a lot of times they're just handing out those diagnosis like candy right now, like, you're still responsible. Like, even if that is a valid condition that you have, you're still responsible for being bipolar. Like, not someone else is responsible. Because it's the same thing as if I was like, oh, yeah, I did have a lot of sleep and I was cranky. Like, okay, I understand why that would move you in the direction of having a short amount of patience and maybe snapping or saying something nasty. But it doesn't excuse it.

Nicole [00:23:18]: Right? That's like people being like, you triggered me. No, you were triggered and then you chose to respond in a way because you can be triggered and consciously think about how you're gonna respond and not lash out at somebody or call them names or attack them. But these days it's like, you triggered me. It's your fault. That's what the issue I have is with the therapy speak these days, with a lot of the words like the gaslighting and the narcissism, like, whatever, all those things, it's your fault, not mine.

John [00:23:51]: Yeah, it's like, look, if you're driving down the road, okay, and you got a busted ass car and you got one, one of your tires is flat or whatever, and then you try to like hit your brakes, but your brakes don't work very good, and then you slam into the car in front of you.

Nicole [00:24:06]: Right.

John [00:24:06]: You can't be like, it's your fault.

Nicole [00:24:09]: That you were in front of me.

John [00:24:11]: Or you can't be like, oh, my car is so busted. That's why. Yeah, I agree. But it's still your fault. Like, you're still like, you had to fix this busted car. So if you have a. If you're driving around with your busted car and you're endangering other people, which is what I'm saying is, like, let's say you have some condition, you're bipolar or whatever it is. If you haven't learned how to manage it, then don't be out, like, running into other people and then calling it their problem.

Nicole [00:24:34]: Yeah.

John [00:24:35]: Because you're a danger. Like, if you have a car that. That needs to be in the shop, you know, don't drive it out and then get into accidents and then be upset with people because you got into accidents. That's what's happening. It's like, because, you know, mentally, maybe you're not in a stable place. Right. So don't get into all these interactions with people and then cause accidents.

Nicole [00:24:56]: Yeah, well. And honestly, I think it's driving people further apart than together. Like, again, therapy was supposed to be this good thing that helps you work through stuff so you can connect better with the people in your life. And the way that people are using the therapy speak and things like that, honestly, is creating a further divide. Because, again, it does nothing but blame other people. And the weird thing is, is that people use the terms to attack someone else.

John [00:25:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:26]: To, like you said, shield themselves and kind of come across as they're not attacking somebody. Cause they're using the right words.

John [00:25:33]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:25:35]: But they don't realize that you're attacking somebody. Like, even if you're using therapy terms that seem innocent and you can't be seen as attacking them with those you are. And it's becoming more prevalent now because it's being used so much in the wrong way that I do think we are catching on to that. But it's like a way for people to think that they're holier than the person that they're attacking. Like, they're perfect.

John [00:26:04]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:26:05]: Because they're using this perfect terminology to attack you. Who's not perfect. And then ultimately, whether they know it or not, they feel worse about themselves.

John [00:26:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:17]: Because they know they're attacking you. They know what they're doing.

John [00:26:19]: Right. They just disguised it.

Nicole [00:26:21]: Right. And then it perpetuates. Right. Like they. They learn new words and they learn to attack you in A different way where they can be untouched and they end up alone because no one also wants to be around somebody that's constantly attacking them.

John [00:26:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:35]: And thinking that they have. They're doing nothing wrong.

John [00:26:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:38]: And it's all you.

John [00:26:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:40]: It's all the person in your life. Then they end up with nobody because they attack everyone in their lives. And so if you do this to your partner.

John [00:26:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:48]: You are going to push your partner further and further away and hurt yourself.

John [00:26:52]: Because you're violating trust.

Nicole [00:26:54]: Right.

John [00:26:54]: Because it's not. And you're attacking. Yeah. It's disingenuous.

Nicole [00:26:58]: Right.

John [00:26:59]: Disingenuous communication.

Nicole [00:27:00]: Right. It's just a mask.

John [00:27:02]: And it's used as deflection, too. Right. Because then you can actually talk to the person because they're like, oh, you're not holding emotional space for me, or you're not validating my emotions. And it's like, well, I'm just trying to tell you something. You're attacking me.

Nicole [00:27:13]: Right.

John [00:27:13]: Even the word attacking can be used. Right. It's like, well, no, like, if I tell you something you don't like, it doesn't mean I'm attacking you. You know what I'm saying? Oh, now you're gaslighting me. And it's like, so then you can't even get through to that.

Nicole [00:27:24]: You can't talk to the person at all.

John [00:27:25]: Yeah. When you can't communicate to the person because they keep on using all these deflection terms, which are correct terms, then it's like you're talking to a wall.

Nicole [00:27:35]: Exactly. And then nothing actually gets fixed.

John [00:27:38]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:27:39]: And then what happens? You have to eventually stop interacting with that person.

John [00:27:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:27:43]: Because they don't understand. They understand what they're doing, but they think that they're doing it in the right way.

John [00:27:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:50]: And again, the way that they can get away with until no one wants to be around them. Because you, like you said you can't even talk to them to be like, hey, you. Like, I just want to talk to you.

John [00:28:01]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:02]: The therapy talk. I want to talk to you.

John [00:28:05]: Is there someone inside there that, like, let's. Because can we talk off the record?

Nicole [00:28:10]: Like, because you're Right.

John [00:28:11]: Like, can we stop the recording and actually talk for real?

Nicole [00:28:14]: Right. It's very shallow. It's very, you know, it has no substance. No issues actually get solved.

John [00:28:21]: Right. Exactly.

Nicole [00:28:22]: And that's, you know, the issue too, with the validating thing, because again, that can also be weaponized. You're not validating me. And then when you go to therapy and your Therapist is just validating you. What have you learned? You learn that you're always right and that you have a bunch of words now that you can use against other people to prove why you're always right.

John [00:28:41]: Right? And people are gonna make mistakes too. I think that's the other thing is it's like someone might say something that is somewhat manipulative, right? Like, that's just normal. It happens. Like, we don't mean to, like, you know, our parents guilt us all the time. They guilt trip us. They don't intentionally mean to, right? They're like, oh, you know, they make you feel bad about something. Like, okay, yeah, sometimes you need to call it out when it's getting to an extreme level or something that's being used as a. As a tactic.

Nicole [00:29:08]: Right?

John [00:29:08]: But in everyday conversation, especially when you're discussing something with your partner and they might say something that feels a little bit like gaslighting or feels a little bit manipulative or feels a little bit defensive, you don't need to call them all out. Like, you need to reserve that for the times where it's absolutely necessary in order to progress further. Like, because if it's blocking the communication, if it's like, let's say someone's being super defensive and that's preventing you from actually talking to them, then you would say it, right? Or if they're like really rewriting history and that's making it so they can't honestly see what's actually happening. I wouldn't even use the term gaslighting. Then I would just. Because there's no need just to say, like, you're not representing the things correctly, right?

Nicole [00:29:58]: That's what I guess I'm trying to say is, like, you don't have to even use these words to get your point across. And you shouldn't at this point because it is another way, right? It's a pattern. Just like what you said. If, like, the defensiveness is a pattern, then bring it up in a way where you can actually still have a conversation. But the therapy speak can sometimes be a pattern where you can't have an actual conversation. So that is what the problem actually is. And the reality is, honestly, we all have narcissistic tendencies. We all can gaslight. We can all lie. We can all do all the things that we can all invalidate people. Nobody is immune to that. And you never will be. No matter if you learn all the words, no matter if you learn all the things, no matter if you're a therapist, it doesn't matter. So like, people need to just get real with themselves. They need to stop trying to find the way where they're protected from doing the wrong thing because you're going to do the wrong thing. And if you think that there's a way where you can't do the wrong thing, you're going to harm people more, usually trying to prevent yourself from being wrong, and then you end up blaming everyone else, and then no one wants to be around you.

John [00:31:10]: Right? And what we always say, like, in our relationship, too, is like, to give the benefit of the doubt. So it's like you have to figure out, because if you just throw some therapy terms to block whatever someone's saying, it's like, well, why are they saying this to you? Right? You know, if you can, sure, say, oh, well, that's not emotionally validating me, or that feels. That's defensive. But it's like, well, but what is their actual intent? Are they really. Are they trying to, like, you know, attack you? Are they actually trying to, you know, get through to you to make you understand a certain thing? Yeah, and that's why it's probably good to just even just ban the therapy words from your relationship. Because also, they're a shortcut, right? So it's like, you know, if you use the word abuse again, it's a loaded word.

Nicole [00:31:55]: Like, what does that mean exactly? Is it words? Is it physical? What extent is it. Did you just say something that someone didn't like and they're mislabeling it? Cause that's the issue, right?

John [00:32:07]: It's a shortcut. It's like instead of actually explaining the real thing, like, you can just throw the label and say abuse, or that's narcissistic or whatever it is. And it's like, well, or that's manipulative. But if you can't use those vocabulary, that's a shortcut, right? It's useful for a therapist because then they can encompass this whole idea in one thing and don't have to explain the entire thing over and over again, right? That's what it's for. That's why you have that. But in an actual situation, you need to talk about the situation in a relationship instead of labeling it as like, you're being abusive to me, right? It's like, don't say that. Instead, say when you said this thing, this wasn't okay because of. Explain exactly what you mean by the thing, because it's just a lazy way of fighting, right?

Nicole [00:32:53]: It is.

John [00:32:54]: That's what it is.

Nicole [00:32:55]: Well, and it's like at this point, it's also too just gonna make somebody defend themselves. Because again, it's like, even if you have a problem with somebody and they are exhibiting those behaviors, like you said, you're not really getting to the root of the problem. So, like, if your intention is to actually work through this or fix this problem or have the person acknowledge it, why are you using terms that aren't going to effectively do that like you think they are? Because again, like you said, a therapist uses it, so it must be the way to do it. Right?

John [00:33:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:28]: But if you just call somebody a narcissist and you're like, you're just being such a narcissist, they don't know how to fix that.

John [00:33:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:36]: Like, what if the way you're being a narcissist is that you don't pick the restaurant that they want to eat at majority of the time?

John [00:33:47]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:48]: That's like, you're not gonna know that by just calling somebody a narcissist. And that's not even like the actual textbook definition. There's so many things that go into.

John [00:33:59]: It and you're avoiding the underlying issue instead of saying, a lot of the time you pick the restaurant without taking in regard what restaurant I want to go to. That's the actual issue.

Nicole [00:34:10]: Right.

John [00:34:10]: They don't feel you resolve an issue if you don't know what it is.

Nicole [00:34:14]: Right.

John [00:34:14]: So you have to say what the actual issue is instead of using a word.

Nicole [00:34:17]: Right. Which is, I feel like, is what we do majority of the time. And that's why, you know, it's hard to do a whole episode because we don't use these kind of words and we can see where they've become really damaging and weaponizing. But.

John [00:34:35]: But, but a lot of it does.

Nicole [00:34:36]: Yeah, A lot of people are doing these sort of things, but it is more beneficial to talk about the actual situation. That's what I was saying earlier where I was like, we need to go back to like, just actually talking about what bothers us, not label everything with these words that half the people don't even really know what they mean and they're not using them the way that they should be used.

John [00:34:57]: It affects us more in parenting, I would say. I think that's. Yeah. Because then we get that. And then it's like, even, even. It's just difficult, like for schools and therapists or doctors when it's like, are you depressed? And it's like, yeah, I have depression. It's like, well, you're asking a kid that and they've been told that. Or like they're using again. That's.

Nicole [00:35:22]: Or their feelings feel really big and they feel like a 9 out of 10.

John [00:35:26]: Or they say they're being abused when they're not being abused because they got.

Nicole [00:35:31]: Their phone taken away or something.

John [00:35:32]: Right. That's not the. Yeah, but now they have the terms to say. Or that my emotions don't get bounced. Validated by my parents.

Nicole [00:35:38]: Right.

John [00:35:39]: It's like, you know, at. That can be true.

Nicole [00:35:43]: Right.

John [00:35:43]: But a lot of times that's not true. It's like you're upset because you didn't get what you wanted.

Nicole [00:35:48]: Right.

John [00:35:48]: It's not the same thing. But then when you tell someone, you know that your emotions aren't being validated by your parents or you tell your therapist that, you know, it's like. So, I mean, parents have to deal with this right. Kind of issue.

Nicole [00:36:00]: Well. And I think honestly it's. It's not just kids learning it, but I mostly see it with younger people using it in this sort of way. I'm not saying that adults don't either. I think they do as well. But you know, our generation and older, they were the kind of like anti therapy. I mean, maybe mine and yours is like when people started actually going to therapy, but definitely the ones before us were very anti therapy, you know, no, not gonna go do that. So I do feel like it is more of the younger generation.

John [00:36:36]: Well, people even doing this use that. They'll say, you need to go to therapy. You should do that.

Nicole [00:36:41]: That's what they used to become the.

John [00:36:42]: Cult of therapy of like, oh, you're not doing therapy.

Nicole [00:36:46]: Right.

John [00:36:46]: You're not.

Nicole [00:36:47]: Everyone should be in therapy, you know, which like, I'm not even trying to sit here and tell you that therapy is not beneficial.

John [00:36:53]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:53]: The right kind of therapy is beneficial.

John [00:36:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:56]: But using the terms to attack people and just going to be validated 247 and not wanting to really reflect on what you came there to work on because you went to therapy for a reason. What did you go to therapy for? To figure something out, to heal something, to make changes in your life. But by being validated with everything that's not gonna do any of those things. There is a part of being validated that does feel healing. If you never were.

John [00:37:25]: Sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:25]: But that's. If you never were.

John [00:37:27]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:37:29]: But even then I feel like if you're really enlightened, you realize that that's not the end all. But that's not gonna solve all your problems.

John [00:37:37]: Yeah, exactly. Because it's Just a band aid.

Nicole [00:37:39]: Right.

John [00:37:40]: Like, it feels good. I was explaining to one of my coaching clients the other day, I was like, look, it's like a bucket that has holes in it. Like. Yeah, it feels good in the moment when that bucket is filled, but it's just gonna empty and then you're gonna need to still fill that bucket, keep on filling it. Because you can't fill that bucket. It's like you have to figure out how can you, you know, fix the holes in the bucket, not try and keep on filling the bucket because then you're draining from everyone else trying to fill your bucket all the time. And that's not. It's not good.

Nicole [00:38:05]: So.

John [00:38:06]: Yeah. But true. Yeah. And it also, I think in their relationship too, like, you have to. I forgot what I was going to say about the. Oh, no, no. That's what I was gonna say is that sometimes. Because I hear this all the time with a lot of my coaching clients too. It's like there's. They have therapists. Right. And people in a relationship will go and discuss their relationship problems with their therapist instead of the person they're in the relationship with.

Nicole [00:38:32]: Right.

John [00:38:33]: And that's not a solution.

Nicole [00:38:35]: Right.

John [00:38:36]: If you have a. Like the therapy is for you to deal with your internal self. Right. But if you have an issue with your partner, you need to discuss those issues with your partner, not with your therapist.

Nicole [00:38:49]: You can't fix a problem. Yeah. In a relationship with someone that's not in it.

John [00:38:54]: Right. Because they're going to give you. A lot of. A lot of times they'll give you bad advice because they're seeing it only you're only perspective.

Nicole [00:39:02]: That's also why ChatGPT is also not a good therapist.

John [00:39:05]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:39:06]: Because they're only seeing your perspective. Even if you're like, don't be biased towards what I'm saying, or whatever prompt you want to give ChatGPT, it's still going to be biased. It doesn't have the full picture. Because let's be real, even if you told a story and I told a story, they're not going to sound the same. And somewhere in the middle, it's what actually happened, even as two people that I feel like we can be pretty brutally honest. Even if we don't like it, it's always going to be lost in translationally. So you can't go based on one person's right.

John [00:39:36]: If anything, go on the other person's. If you want to get therapy for you have your partner tell the therapist what happened instead of you telling the therapist, what happened. Then you'll get a more accurate. For yourself. Yeah, you might not like it, but you know what I'm saying? But at least it'll be biased in the other direction. Because if you bias things in your own direction, you're not going to learn. That's the thing. It's like you'd be better off biasing in the other direction, but if you buy things all in your own direction, it's not going to learn. Well, and a lot of times, too, with therapy, when they actually see your interactions with. In real life, it changes the advice. Right. Because when you're just telling the therapist this thing, they're validating you and saying, oh, yeah, you're being gaslit. It sounds like you're married to a narcissist or whatever it is. But then if they actually see your interaction and they see what you're actually doing, then it makes sense why this person acted this way or responded this way or what you're describing. And so it's just not. It's not a substitute for actually, you know, dealing with the issue with your partner.

Nicole [00:40:43]: Right. And I have nothing against therapists. I have plenty of people in my life that are therapists, and I'm sure they're great therapists because they're great people.

John [00:40:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:51]: But it's like, you can't have your therapist also be the end all. Be all like the high and mighty in your life, like the person that's judging you. Like, you can't go there and be like, oh, if they say I'm a good person, then I'm a good person. You know what I mean? Or be like, my therapist said you're a bad person, so you're a bad person. One, you shouldn't be doing that. As a therapist, I would think I'm not a therapist, but I would think that you shouldn't even be leading your client to think those things. But so many people act like the therapy and the therapist is God.

John [00:41:25]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:41:26]: Is like the one that's going to determine if they get into heaven or not. And I'm not even religious like that. You know what I mean? But people treat it that way. And I'm not saying they shouldn't have respect for their therapist. They should. Like, that's a hard job.

John [00:41:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:38]: To like, you know, take on everybody's.

John [00:41:40]: But then you. But then they weaponize that. They're like, oh, my therapist said this about you. Or my therapist said that when you say this, that I should respond this way.

Nicole [00:41:48]: Right.

John [00:41:49]: It's like, Just keep that to yourself and respond that way.

Nicole [00:41:52]: Right.

John [00:41:52]: Like you're using it as a weapon.

Nicole [00:41:54]: Right, exactly.

John [00:41:54]: And they might not even be correct because you're biased, giving them biased information.

Nicole [00:41:58]: Right.

John [00:41:59]: And then you're using that as a weapon. So it's like.

Nicole [00:42:01]: Which is, like, that's part of the problem. Right. Like you're there. Therapists are not the person that's going to determine who I am, especially from someone else's account or even my own account.

John [00:42:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:13]: Like, that's not.

John [00:42:14]: Yeah. And I'm not going to judge people. I'm not a therapist, but I do life coaching. I do coaching, right. For my clients. And when they tell me shit that happened to them that. That someone else did to them, I empathize with them. I say, wow, I mean, that sounds rough. I'm sorry that happened to you.

Nicole [00:42:30]: Yeah.

John [00:42:30]: But then I focus on what can we do? Yeah. On them. I don't spend the time saying, oh, yeah, that person is. Is an asshole or whatever. I'm like. And I. And sometimes they get upset because I'm. I'm like, well, what do you think might have. You might have said or did that cause them to respond that way or treat you that way?

Nicole [00:42:48]: Right?

John [00:42:49]: Like, what do you mean? I'm like, yeah, because, I mean, sure, people are responsible for their own actions, but. But do you think there's. There's nothing that you, like, said or did that would have caused, you know, and. And, but. But that's the challenge. Like, so. Because if I'm coaching you, right, And I'm helping you, I can only fix you.

Nicole [00:43:08]: Yeah.

John [00:43:08]: I can. You know, I can't fix the world or your broken relationships out there and how other people are. I can only help you fix you.

Nicole [00:43:16]: Right. And so teaching you how to blame people doesn't help you.

John [00:43:19]: And it doesn'. Other people aren't doing wrong things.

Nicole [00:43:22]: Right.

John [00:43:22]: But, like, you have to, like, if you're going to therapy, like a good therapist would. Would do, you know, I imagine with coaching, which is to empathize with your situation and how you feel and. And understand your feelings, but then help you to understand how to deal with those feelings.

Nicole [00:43:43]: Right?

John [00:43:43]: Not how to not have those feelings, how to deal with those feelings.

Nicole [00:43:46]: Right.

John [00:43:47]: And, you know, because otherwise you're trying to, like, live in a bubble where you're like, okay, we got to treat you like the boy in the bubble. We got to keep. Keep all the germs away from you because you can't let anything bad happen to you otherwise. You. Because you can't handle it because you're so fragile.

Nicole [00:44:02]: Yeah.

John [00:44:02]: You know, and that's the thing is, like, so, I mean, sometimes, like I said, my coaching clients will sometimes get upset at me because I'm like. They're like, well, what about all these other people that are doing this stuff to me? You're making it seem like it's all my fault. Right. Well, it's your responsibility. I can't do anything with them. You tell them to come and do coaching, and I can talk to them, but I'm talking to you, so we're gonna fix you.

Nicole [00:44:26]: Yeah.

John [00:44:26]: You know, so.

Nicole [00:44:27]: Yeah. No, I think you saying fragile is what it is.

John [00:44:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:32]: They think it's strong and that they're, you know, conquering the things by being like, oh, you're doing this. Like, they're labeling you now. They're the therapists. Right. When you view your therapist is God and now you learn the words and you can be the therapist.

John [00:44:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:46]: And diagnose people without knowing anything you feel like God.

John [00:44:49]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:44:50]: Right. But really, you're actually the most fragile.

John [00:44:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:55]: Because you can't even have an actual conversation without deflecting or using your shielding therapy terms to protect yourself. You're not even exposing yourself. You're not being actual, actually vulnerable, which is what you're supposed to do in therapy.

John [00:45:10]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:11]: Like, you're just attacking people and then hiding behind the thing and then wondering why it's not working.

John [00:45:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:18]: That's why your therapy isn't working is because you. You don't really understand what you're there to do. You're not there to learn words, to attack other people, to make yourself feel better.

John [00:45:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:29]: You're there to heal yourself. Like you said, all you can focus on is yourself.

John [00:45:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:34]: And even sometimes, like you said, you have to face the hard stuff of like, well, what was your part in this?

John [00:45:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:40]: This situation?

John [00:45:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:42]: Yeah. Like, that person hurt you and they did this. I understand that, but what was your part in the situation?

John [00:45:47]: I need a new therapist.

Nicole [00:45:48]: Right. But that's how it goes these days.

John [00:45:50]: You're blaming, victim blaming. You're victim blaming. My therapist is victim blaming.

Nicole [00:45:55]: It's like, how do you even.

John [00:45:57]: They're trying to make me accountable. They're trying to make me have responsibility to hold to be accountable for my own actions or my own feelings and thoughts.

Nicole [00:46:04]: Right.

John [00:46:05]: Oh, can't have that need to get a new therapist.

Nicole [00:46:07]: If you want to be weak and not be able to handle the world, keep doing what you're doing. But if you want to be able to handle the world and anything that it throws at you, you have to actually be vulnerable. You have to actually take accountability and you have to actually make changes in your life, not expect other people to cater to you. You have to learn how to interact with the world, not be afraid to be triggered by it or what are like, be wrong or be viewed a certain way. And look, I've like, done all of these things. Probably, like, I'm not perfect.

John [00:46:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:45]: But I'm coming here to tell you these things because it's the only way to actually feel better about yourself, to actually feel in control of your life and to stop allowing other people to put stuff on you.

John [00:46:59]: Right?

Nicole [00:46:59]: Yeah.

John [00:46:59]: Because otherwise, what it really is, is a victim mindset. And that's what, you know, you're either taking responsibility for your life and your actions and your own emotions and thoughts, or you're blaming other people. And then you have the victim mindset.

Nicole [00:47:12]: Right.

John [00:47:13]: Making yourself the victim.

Nicole [00:47:14]: Right.

John [00:47:14]: And that's the thing. And that's what. Not what therapy was supposed to be.

Nicole [00:47:18]: Right. And do you want other people to control your life or you to control your life?

John [00:47:21]: Right. Yeah. So. But. Yeah. Well, good. I think that's. We. We beat that horse to death.

Nicole [00:47:30]: Did we?

John [00:47:31]: I think so. Unless you had something.

Nicole [00:47:32]: We didn't talk about boundaries.

John [00:47:34]: Oh, yeah, wait. Oh, yeah, that's true. That's a good point. Yeah. So the boundaries versus what was the patholog. Pathogel.

Nicole [00:47:41]: Pathologizing.

John [00:47:42]: You messed me up. Now you're like, can you please say this word so I don't mess it up? You got me.

Nicole [00:47:48]: It's the pressure.

John [00:47:49]: But, yeah, but. Well, I think that's. That's the thing is if someone is. Well, even like, I think it's a good example. Like, let's say that someone is gaslighting you instead of calling them a gaslighter. You can just have a boundary and.

Nicole [00:48:06]: Not going to continue this conversation until we can actually talk about what's going on, not label each other.

John [00:48:14]: Right. Yeah. If you say this like, you know, if you. You can even have to have a boundary around the therapy terms. Like, if you hit me with therapy terms instead of the real issues, then I'm not going to have this conversation. Because I'm not.

Nicole [00:48:26]: Because it doesn't go anywhere.

John [00:48:28]: Right. Exactly. It's not. It's not worth my time.

Nicole [00:48:30]: And boundaries you control.

John [00:48:32]: Right. Yeah. You see, boundaries are things that you. Yeah. You can't make someone do something with your bound boundary is not expecting them to act any differently. It's Just to make it clear as to what you're going to do so that it's really for yourself, to protect yourself.

Nicole [00:48:46]: Which unfortunately, boundaries have also been weaponized as well, too.

John [00:48:50]: Because it is a therapy term. It's boundaries.

Nicole [00:48:52]: Right. So it is difficult, but you will know when someone's using it for the wrong way.

John [00:49:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:00]: And I think that's what most people have to watch out for. Because most people, I don't think, are intentionally. If they're in the mindset that you and I have, they're not going to set a boundary to manipulate somebody intentionally. It might even come across that way, but it's. That's not intentional. You know, if you're dealing with someone that is weaponizing a lot of things and you'll know whether their boundary is disguised as a threat.

John [00:49:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:28]: Or not. Because again, like you said, if they're throwing out a boundary, they have to do something if that's crossed, not you.

John [00:49:37]: Right? Yeah, exactly. They're trying to make you jump to the hoop or make you responsible for their emotions or responsible for their actions.

Nicole [00:49:43]: Exactly.

John [00:49:43]: Right. And that's not like it's. You can't be like, oh, you made me do this.

Nicole [00:49:48]: Right, Right.

John [00:49:50]: And I think the thing about it is.

Nicole [00:49:51]: But people will try to say that, though.

John [00:49:53]: Yeah, well, and the other thing is, like, if you're using the word, like, don't. You don't need to use the word boundary when you set a boundary, because then you're gonna trigger people. Cause you're now using the word that's loaded. So you just need to spell it out without saying.

Nicole [00:50:06]: Right. I feel like if you call me this name, I'm not going to continue.

John [00:50:09]: Right. Don't say, this is my boundary. Because once you said that, now you've lost all the power behind it. Because now it feels like you're manipulating using the word.

Nicole [00:50:17]: Because all the words now feel like manipulation. They don't even feel genuine anymore.

John [00:50:21]: Why did you use that word? Why didn't you just say, look?

Nicole [00:50:24]: Why didn't you just say the boundary?

John [00:50:26]: And even. And even before you set the boundary, people are setting the boundary too early because they're using it as a thing to shield themselves from actually dealing with, which allows them to be. You can create so much boundaries around yourself that you're fragile because you can't. No one can talk to you in any way.

Nicole [00:50:43]: That's what's happening.

John [00:50:44]: It's different. Like, you know, to have a boundary to say, okay, if you. If you're going to speak to me in A. In a. In a way where you're yell. If you're yelling at me or calling me names, I'm not going to have a talk with you, right? But if it's like, oh, if you've raised your voice at all, oh, we're not talking. If you said something negative towards me at all, we're not talking. Like, now you've created. You've made this fragile space around you where you can't have a real communication with someone because, oh, they better not elevate their tone at all. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's a difference between yelling at someone and calling them names versus elevating their tone, right? Or whatever. Like, you have to have enough in their room to operate where you're not. Where you're actually, like, using the boundary to protect yourself. But even then, like, you don't need to drop the boundary right away. Like, the boundary needs to be something that is. Like, something's repeatedly happening and the boundary is the only way to solve this issue. Instead, you should be more resilient, right? Like, you know what I'm saying is that I think that's the issue, is that people aren't resilient enough, especially in their relationships, because it gets messy. Like, even when we're trying to work things out, it shouldn't go to the level of you calling me names or me yelling at you or anything like that. That should not be part of that. But it still does.

Nicole [00:52:01]: Well, it doesn't.

John [00:52:02]: No, and it doesn't. But it still gets messy. Like, I'm gonna say something that I shouldn't have said that might hurt your feelings, and you're gonna say something that you shouldn't have said that might hurt my feelings, and it might be somewhat manipulative. Or it might be, like, because we're trying to navigate and we're trying to be better at. Obviously, everyone should try to be. But if I set a boundary, like a hard boundary, the minute you say something that hurts my feelings or that you shouldn't have said, then I've shut down the communication, right? It's like. But if you're repeat, like, let's say that you just kept on calling me an asshole while we're trying to talk, okay? Then I would need to set it, because there's a reason to set that boundary. But if you just said something that I didn't like and I start setting the boundary now, I've shut down the communication because now I can't. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's not enough range that you have to actually say the truth to me because the truth offends me. So I've set boundaries around. I've blocked myself out and made myself fragile.

Nicole [00:53:00]: Yeah, I know what you're saying. I think, though, like, there's never really an excuse to call people names, though.

John [00:53:07]: Because that's a hard boundary.

Nicole [00:53:08]: You know, it is possible not to do, even if people think that they can't do it.

John [00:53:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:14]: So I know you're. I'm just picking on, like, the example that you used, but I don't. I think that even saying I'm not gonna talk to you if you call me an asshole is understandable. Personality.

John [00:53:28]: That's what I said. I said that's.

Nicole [00:53:29]: Well, you said, if they keep calling you an asshole.

John [00:53:31]: Oh, yeah. Sorry. Yeah. One time is like. Is enough.

Nicole [00:53:35]: Because I do feel like if you allow, like, someone to continuously call you an asshole, they're gonna be like, well, you didn't say anything when I said it the first five times.

John [00:53:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:44]: You know what I mean? Which. It's. Again, that's not your responsibility. Like, you were giving them grace. But it is harder for them to understand if you allowed it to happen certain amount of times. And then now you're drawing the. Which I get that. It's like, you know, maybe you didn't really care before. I don't know. But just having our experience, I'm like, you cannot call people names. Like, I know it's possible. No, like, being with you. I know a lot of things are possible that people think are not possible.

John [00:54:12]: Right?

Nicole [00:54:12]: Like, not yelling and not calling each other names. Those things are possible. So, again, like, I'm just saying that I. I don't think I would allow somebody to call me an asshole multiple times in a conversation.

John [00:54:24]: Pretty sure, yeah.

Nicole [00:54:26]: Before saying something. But, no, I agree with you if.

John [00:54:28]: It'S something that you haven't encountered before. Right, Right. Like, I mean, our relationship's a little bit different, but if something you haven't encountered before, you might need to say, like, someone calls you an asshole in, you know, your partner in a. You know, it's a newer relationship, and you say, I really don't, like, appreciate that. Like, that's like when you said calling me an asshole. Like, can we not do that? Can we not do that? And then they do it again. Then maybe you have to draw them out. Like, all right, I told you that I didn't like it, that it's not okay with me. Now, I'm gonna tell you now that if you say that again, that this will end the conversation and future conversations. Then you have. See, that's the proper way to set the boundary because it's actually inhibiting the conversation.

Nicole [00:55:12]: When you're communicating all this, you're not just like you're fully communicating it. You're not just shutting it down or labeling it something quickly.

John [00:55:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:21]: And then dismissing it.

John [00:55:23]: And it's not open for interpretation.

Nicole [00:55:24]: Right.

John [00:55:25]: Because if you have, it's like if I have my yard, right. And I have do not trespass signs on my yard, but it's not clear where my yard is, I don't have a fence or anything. And you're like, okay, I don't know, am I, am I, am I in the yard? I don't know. Like it's. Especially if it's an oddly shaped year. Like I need to have a, have a sign, have a fence, have some kind of delineation. Otherwise they don't even know if they're. Cause if it's up to your interpretation. That's why I said like, bullying is a good example. It's a vague thing.

Nicole [00:55:56]: Yeah.

John [00:55:56]: You interpret one thing that I might not interpret as bullying, but maybe you interpret it as bullying. I don't. You can't have a boundary where it's your interpretation. It has to be a distinct thing.

Nicole [00:56:07]: Right.

John [00:56:08]: If you say this word, if you do this thing, I will, you know, because otherwise it's meaningless. Like, and also you're training people to like to cater to your emotions instead of your like. And that's the problem is that when you use those boundaries in that way, then you're forcing people to walk on eggshells. You're forcing people like you're actually manipulating them because you're the one. It's like that game replayed, what was the card game, the dictator one. The Mao, Mao, Mao game. It's like, I don't know, did I break a rule? Because you're the one who's telling me whether I broke the rule or not. Like it's not defined anywhere, you know, so it's like, okay, you shouldn't have to have.

Nicole [00:56:49]: And people don't want to live like that. Which is why though, again, going back to kind of tie it all together with a bow, that the therapy speak, people think is helping them communicate more clearly, but it's actually not at all like, it's not specific. It doesn't actually solve the problems. A lot of times causes more problems because you can't even have an in depth conversation at that point. And you can't connect deeply.

John [00:57:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:57:15]: And so, yeah, it's just.

John [00:57:17]: And it's going to be a triggering word. Like because of how it's used now. Like if you tell someone, hey, I think you're being narcissistic, boom. All of a sudden they're not listening to you anymore. Right?

Nicole [00:57:29]: They're just going to defend themselves or whatever. And then you're going to think they're more narcissistic because they're defending themselves.

John [00:57:35]: Instead, call out the thing that they're doing. Don't use the word narcissistic. Right, right.

Nicole [00:57:40]: Just actually talk about the things.

John [00:57:42]: Like it seems like every time you're making it about you in this conversation, like, for instance, I said this and then now you're actually dealing with the.

Nicole [00:57:50]: Real issue, which is way more likely to actually get resolved.

John [00:57:54]: Right? Because even the same thing, like if someone, if you really feel like someone's gaslighting you, if you say, hey, stop gaslighting me, they're going to get triggered by that word. Right? Because it's going to have a lot of negative implications where if you say, hey, I feel like what you're saying it can be the same definition of gallery. Because, like you're saying these things and it feels like you're trying to convince me of things that I don't actually believe. Now you're actually dealing with the real thing. And now you could actually say without triggering them. Because if your intent is to really actually resolve the issue, not just to use it as a weapon to name call them, then you would say what the issue is. And you don't have to use that specific word.

Nicole [00:58:36]: Right.

John [00:58:36]: Even abuse. You don't have to use that word. You can say what you said was not okay or like, you know, so that's true. Yeah. All right. Now we've now, we've now dealt with it all. Okay, good. All right. Well, yeah, I guess we don't really have anything for this week since we're recording back to back episodes.

Nicole [00:59:00]: But yeah, just follow us on our social media and you can visit our website. Better than PerfectPod.com.

John [00:59:10]: Yeah, if you've got a question email. You can email us at better than perfectpodcast gmail.com and leave review like share, subscribe. I guess make like a. I don't know, I guess I could, I could make an email address for our website. But better than Perfect Pod, like info at. Yeah, Nicole, Nicole and john@betterthanperfectpod.com I don't know. But yeah, some someday when people actually email us, then we'll email us. Yeah, or leave a review. All right, we'll see you guys next week. Take.