John: If a woman is going out to a bar or nightclub and she's planning on getting laid, she doesn't need to be there for very long, right? She'll find the guy, maybe she wants to have a little fun, then she picks the guy, and she's gone. But most women, most of the time, are not planning on it. Literally, my friends and I would go and dance. We used to go and dance and then go home.

Nicole: Yeah, that's what I tell guys. I'm like, look, the girls are just here to dance. They're not here to get laid. But you're going to sidetrack their plan and come in there like a smooth criminal and get them off of their plan. Beyond perfect, we discovered through our flaws we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault and find our way. Alright, welcome to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we show you how two people helping each other become better equals one better than perfect relationship. I don't know if that was fully it, but it was close.

John: I think there was too much "betters" in there. Like, two. You didn't ask me to do it again. Two people helping each other, maybe that's what it was, equals one better than... I don't know. We have to go and look at the notes, but it's close enough. So, it doesn't... it's just the point is to get the point across. Pretend like you know what you're talking about. So, there you go.

Nicole: Exactly. So, alright, so for this week, the topic is girls' night out and guys' night out. Okay, so I forget how we typically... sometimes I start, sometimes you start. So, I think you should start.

John: Oh, okay. I think, okay, well, let's see. So, I mean, we talked about this a little bit in the one episode where we talked about the boundaries or the rules, or it depends on what way you want to phrase it, depending on how sensitive you are. So, it's okay to be sensitive, but however you like it. And one of them was obviously the girls' night out, guys' night out thing, right. And so obviously, I'm against that.

Nicole: And I wasn't always. You look so happy about it. You're like, "I'm against that."

John: The thing about it is, the big defense for it, we could start with that because that's exactly where people are going, is that, "Oh, I'm not doing anything wrong."

Nicole: Right. Well, I was going to say, why you just said you were okay with it before. So, I was going to ask you why you were and why it's different now.

John: Well, I mean, there's two reasons why. Okay, so one, I was okay with it before, first because I wasn't going to do anything, so I didn't think of anything wrong. And then second, because I was going to do something.

Nicole: Wait, what? You just said first because you weren't going to do anything, and second, you were okay with it because you were going to do something. So, either way, you're going to be okay with it, right? So, that's also the problem. But we have another episode where I talk about that, which is mistakes. But yeah, that's why I was okay with it before. But that's the defense, right? The defense is, "I wasn't going to do anything."

John: Right. And which I feel like is most people's defense. And whether you're planning on doing anything or not, and then also, especially when alcohol is involved, you might not... I mean, some people plan, some people don't, but when things happen, most people didn't plan, and then they're like, "Oh yeah, oops." Right? And so, you can't say, "I wasn't planning on doing anything," or "I wasn't going to do anything," or "I would never do anything," and then later go, "Oops." That's why "oops" is in the dictionary because it's a mistake that you didn't plan on making. Right? So, you can't ever use that argument to say, "Oh, you know, that's..." So, the real answer, I would say, is that it's more important, the appearance of wrongdoing is what's more important than the actual wrongdoing. Because if you go about and you have the appearance of wrongdoing, or you put yourself into a place where you could "oops," you know, then when you "oops," it's much more grievous because you've now made a conscious choice to put yourself in the situation. Just like I was just reading the Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle's book, and he was talking about how they judge... it goes into ethics, basically. And he was saying that if someone drinks and then they commit a crime, then the penalty is twice, and the reason for that is because you've made a choice to put yourself into a situation, and then the bad thing happened. So, it's even more conscious, even though choice to inebriate yourself and then do it.

Nicole: Well, so I was going to say, you said it's more about the "oops," but I would say it's more about the things you can't control. Because I do understand the defense of, "Well, I'm not going to do anything," and I do believe most people who say that. Yeah, of course, most people. But it's the things outside of your control.

John: We're little started, but like, guys may approach you as a woman, or like, you might get too drunk and like go off with somebody or talk to somebody for too long, and they might think you're interested and might put you... Yeah, those things happen. So, I don't think it's necessarily as much as the "oops." I know you do because of some situations that you've been in, but I think it's more so when you get in like a serious relationship, you realize it's not the "oops." Because like, if I went out, for some crazy reason, I went out for a girl night, right? I know there is no "oops." Like, there's absolutely no "oops." Like, I don't care. Well, I don't drink, but even if I did, there would be no "oops" because I don't care what anybody has to say. You're never too drunk to make a mistake to that level. Well, period. You are too drunk to, and that's the reason why you have to not drink in those situations. I've never been so drunk that I would make that decision. Like, I am still...

Nicole: I've been pretty drunk back in my day when I drank, and I still knew what I was doing. Like, yes, I'm more likely to make careless things, but I would never, no matter how drunk I was, cheat on somebody or let it go to that level. But the thing is, here for me, is that if I went out right now, I don't know who would approach me, right? I don't. People would think that I'm available because you're not there, or whatever. And like, even with a wedding ring, that does not deter men, and it doesn't deter women either, supposedly according to you. It actually enhances the...

John: Well, 'cause women are mostly attracted to men that other women are attracted to. That's the biggest attraction.

Nicole: Well, yeah, that is... that is a thing. Not always, but that is a thing. The man that's the most...

John: In demand, a woman wants to feel like her man's desirable and wanted. But what I'm saying is, for me, it's not this oops thing. It is the other outlying factors that most people don't even realize because they are like, "Well, I'm not going to do anything." So, that's all they're focused on. They're like, "I know I'm not right," but what they don't realize is all of the things that are happening behind the scenes. Because even when you walk into a restaurant, there could be people checking you out. But at least if you're at the restaurant with your husband or something. And I'm not saying you can't go on like a girl's dinner or things like that, but even in that situation, someone could approach you. But it's less likely as if you're at a bar or a club where people are trying to mingle and hook up with each other and take each other home. And how does it look? That's the thing. It's like, that's why the appearance is so much of an issue. I was actually listening to a long time ago, but I thought this was pretty brilliant. I think it was like Billy Graham or something, a very famous pastor, right? And he was talking about how he's never ever allows himself to be alone in a room with a woman. Now, obviously, I mean, the guy was older too at the time, and he was like, but he just made that his rule because he never wants anyone to ever accuse him. There always has to be witnesses, and he just doesn't want any kind of appearance like he's not going to do something wrong. He knows it, but he doesn't want any kind of appearance of wrongdoing. And it's also for his reputation, which also, it's for your reputation as a woman, as a man, right? If you're going out and girls' nights out, you're out there at a bar, at a nightclub, even if you're not doing anything, it is hurting your reputation, which also hurts my reputation as a man. Because one of my friends sees, "Oh hey, I saw your wife out there at a bar. Looks like she was drinking a lot or, you know, whatever, having a good time." Okay, like, that reflects poorly on me, right? Like now, all these people think they know you, right? But they see you out there, they don't know you. They're just women, right? It's like, so it's a poor reflection.

Nicole: Same thing, but it, you know, we could flip the tables. And if I'm out there drinking at a bar with the guys, and then hey, you know, come my guys' friends are hitting on girls or whatever, or hell, one of them brings a girl over to the table. I got nothing to do with that, right? 'Cause I'm loyal. I'm not interested. She might try to talk to you now 'cause she likes you better than the one who brought her over. Even if I shut her down, someone else sitting over at another table looks over at that, sees me. They see, they're like, "Oh, that's the guy from the Better Than Perfect podcast. They better know you got away." They might say Bulldog Mindset, you know what I'm saying? But then, how bad does that look on you, even if I haven't done anything? Even if I've properly shut her down, done all the things, but because I put myself in the situation, right? People are going to look down on you because you're my wife, you know what I mean? Like, I would be disrespecting you by putting myself having any kind of appearance of wrongdoing.

John: I agree. And what you mentioned earlier about the story about the guy who wouldn't even be around a woman by himself, right? Some people, I don't know, they might interpret that in some weird way, but to me, that is like the ultimate level of respecting the person that you're with. And that's what it really is. Like, if you don't realize, if you think it's like controlling, right? To not go and put yourself in a situation like going out where like single people do stuff and single people try to hook up with other single people and things like that, then you're missing the whole point because it's the respect for your partner. And like we mentioned in another episode as well, too, like, why do you need those things anymore, right? Like, there was a moment in our relationship where, you know, you were here, and I was in Florida, and we were kind of like going through something. Yeah, and I went out with some of my friends 'cause she had just gotten engaged, and I went to bars that I had gone to and had a great time and, like, you know, when I was single. And it just didn't feel even the same. So, my thing with a lot of the like going out when you're in a serious relationship or married is like, what are you lacking, right? You shouldn't from your relationship where you want to go and do what you did when you were single because the whole time I was there, it was not the same. Like, even like dancing with my friends, just being exposed to like other people who could approach me, it just felt wrong 'cause we were still like together, but you know, like going through our own stuff. And so, I guess that's where I have a hard time understanding where women come from for like still wanting that. And don't get me wrong, like I go and hang out with my girlfriends from like mad house. We do like brunches or, well, not with bottomless, or like, you know, a lunch date, or we do an activity like we did reef making class, you know. So, I'm watch a movie or something. Yeah, like you do like little house parties, which women do that more so than guys. They'll have like cute little party get-togethers at their house. But yeah, you know, so I'm not saying, and I don't want anyone to think that like I'm saying that you can't, you get in a relationship, you can't hang out with your girlfriend. That's, yeah, I think that's what a lot of people think. And that's why we said like girls' night out, guys' night out because normally that entails like going to a club or a bar, some place like that, not like, you know, you can say girls' night, and that can be like in, you know, have your girls over and watch movies and, you know, paint each other's fingernails and like share all your secrets. But girls' night out is usually, that's, yeah, exactly, going to the bars. And part of it's like, like just like you said, it's like, what, you know, if you're not into that anymore, why? If you're a vegan, why are you hanging around a sausage factory? You could be like, "Yeah, I just like to hang around sausage factories." And okay, sure, but why don't you just go and hang out at the vegan cafe instead of the sausage factory? Like, you know what I mean? Like, if you go out to the sausage factory, people are going to assume you're there for a sausage, right? Like, you know, not for a vegan salad. Okay, so that's all I'm saying is like, analogies every week. It's a good one. I mean, you know, works on multiple levels.

Nicole: That's why I see what you did there. But the thing is, but that's the truth.

John: You know what I mean? And so, that's why it just doesn't make sense. Because, you know, the defense of "Oh, I just want to go and dance, go to my house, dance, not an official sponsor but kind of segue," but you can do that in other places. You don't have to go out and go to one of those in that position.

Nicole: Yeah, I want to segue into what we were talking about before a little bit, where we were talking about guys going out and girls going out. And I feel like, as a woman, and as a woman who knows she wouldn't do anything if she went out, just like we had that conversation just now, right? I do feel like it is easier for a woman to go out in that situation and not get herself into trouble. I'm not saying that never happens, no, no, it's easier for sure.

John: Yeah, but because men are visual creatures, and it's very hard to believe that guys can go to a guys' night out at a bar and not be sitting there with his bros and ogling women.

Nicole: That's correct. But let me give you two pieces on this. Okay, so the first one is this: Look, a guy goes out to a bar, he doesn't have women coming up to him, throwing themselves at him, wanting to have sex with them, "Hey, let's leave the bar right now and have sex." Okay, but he's staring, making eye contact.

John: Okay, that's true. Like, the guy might be more causing the trouble, but most guys, you could let them do whatever they want to do, and they're not going to come back with anything, you know what I mean? There's a... And I speak about this from coaching a lot of guys, and one guy in particular got the hall pass, and he couldn't do anything with the hall pass.

Nicole: And then his wife left him because she was like, "This guy's pathetic." Sad, but I'm just saying that she should have left him anyway, whether he succeeded or not.

John: I'm with you. I agree. But I'm just saying, it's like, so, you know, and most guys that are listening to this, that's exactly what they're going to be like, "You know how hard it is as a guy to even pick up a girl?" It's like, but guys are throwing themselves at girls.

Nicole: So that's why when a girl goes, I know how hard it is because you've talked about it, and you've seen it. We went and coached the guy; that's why I know how hard men will work to get it. And that's why I'm saying that even if you are in a relationship or something, I'm not saying that you're going to like pursue a woman, right? But men are visual creatures, and you will look at women, right? Your friends are there too. If you're there with single guys, they're going to be like, "Look at that hot girl." What are you going to be like? No? I'm not going to... As a woman, you know if your guy is a danger risk or not, you know what I mean?

John: Well, to be honest, you know, I mean, like, he either is or isn't. But I feel like a lot of women do get surprised, though, sometimes.

Nicole: That's true. I think that it's more so that men are trying to prove something in those instances when a woman trusts her man, and then she's like, "I didn't think that this would happen." He's trying to prove something.

John: Yeah, it's better not to be like, "Okay, well, you know, my dog never bites, so I'll let it go off." It's still going to come back; it's going to bite someone sometime. Like, it's, you know, it's like or chase after a squirrel or something. But my point is, is that women go out, literally guys are throwing themselves at them, you know, are like, "I will have sex with you right now."

Nicole: Right. So, but a guy goes out, it's not the same thing. However, that doesn't excuse it. I'm not saying that. I still say no girls' night out, no guys' night out. I'm just saying that it is a little bit of a different situation.

John: Well, and men don't take no for an answer, and you've even coached men not to take no for an answer. So, if you're out as a woman, and you're like, "No thanks, I'm with somebody," they'll be like, "Just 'cause there's a goalie doesn't mean you can't score."

Nicole: Well, and here's the other thing, though. See, and usually it does involve alcohol, but it doesn't necessarily have to. But definitely, if it involves alcohol, believe me, I've been coaching guys for a long time. I've been coaching guys in Vegas, okay? I've been out there. Most women do not plan on anything happening. They don't. It's true. I mean, look, if a woman is going out, bar or nightclub, and she's on getting laid, she doesn't need to be there for very long, right? She'll find the guy, maybe she wants to have a little fun, then she picks the guy, and she's gone.

John: All right, but most women, most of the time, are not planning on it. And that is the exact strategy that I tell guys when they go out. I'm like, "Look, there, you think that women are at this bar because they want to get laid? Wrong. They're at this bar because they want male attention. They want you to ogle her. They want to dance with their friends. They want to have a good time. They're not planning on getting... You're here to get laid. That's why there's five guys to one woman here, right? However, here's how you get through. They're not expecting it. That's not what they came here for. But you sweep them off their feet, you seduce them, and then they're like, 'Oh, it just happened. It's just... Everything is... Have like... You're the mastermind planning all these things, and in her mind, she's like, 'This is so romantic. It just happened.'"

Nicole: You know why you're able to do that? And okay, before I go on here, okay, every single person is responsible for their own actions. I am not saying that. I am not saying any of that, right? However, if you are able to do that to a woman, her man is not fulfilling her needs. But is that because no woman is going to risk her life with a man that is treating her right, doing everything for her, loving her, making her feel amazing, for some Joe at a bar who just knows some pickup lines?

John: But what percentage of women do you think that is?

Nicole: A lot. Because there's not a lot of men like you, as we've seen from our time together, which is a lot.

John: Which side is the lot? Just so to make it clear.

Nicole: I mean, I feel like there's a lot of women who aren't with partners that they really are invested in. So, a majority of the time, when women are out and they don't plan on doing anything, and they say they would never do anything, they're still susceptible to the charming guy, especially with alcohol, right situation, right guy, right circumstances. He's smooth. "I don't know what happened. All of a sudden, I'm in his room." Like, that. She's still responsible, but I'm just saying that when women have in their head, "Girls' night out is okay because I'm not going to do anything. I'm in control of myself. I wouldn't do it." Look, the women that are in a completely secure relationship, where all...

John: Their needs are being met. I do believe them. Okay, with alcohol, though, it depends on the person. Then it starts to even become a but I think I would still give them the okay, the thumbs up. Okay, but 90% of women, they cannot say that all their needs are being fulfilled in their relationship and they're perfectly happy. If their man stepped up and became the type of man that she's looking for, sure, then she would, and like that would happen less. And I understand, and then she wouldn't want to go on the girls' night.

Nicole: Yes, exactly. And it's still her choice. And I'm not saying, before the guys come for my neck and be like, "You're just saying women can never do anything wrong." What I'm saying is, also in this situation, guys, if you feel like your woman doesn't value you, what are you doing? Then you should be leaving or whatever, or either step up and be the man, or you got two choices: find somebody who appreciates you. But what I'm just saying is that, like, you're right, it's never planned for women, but it is usually the women who are unhappy or unfulfilled.

John: Right. I mean, not to like go back, but that's where you were looking for things too because of the same reason. Not that it's right. It's never right.

Nicole: No, it's not right, but that's correct though. But that is what makes somebody open to those things. Women go out, girls' night out, their primary objective: get ogled by guys, get attention from male attention. That's what, let's just not say girl, when women go out, they want attention from guys. When guys go out to women, right, it's see, it's exactly the same.

John: Right, it's like it's a different thing, but it's exactly that's what I'm saying is that when women go out, like the reason why so many women put up the defense for the girls' night out because there's, and there's plenty of guys that put up for defense for the guys out, but is because they know that when they're going out, maybe they're not going to do anything, but they like the attention. That's why they get dressed up. That's why they get out there. Single girls, a th% right, but even some girls in a relationship.

Nicole: Always not again with the secure women in their relationship, genuinely, I don't think that's the case, to be honest.

John: Well, again, we're talking small percent.

Nicole: Yeah, I know, but women who aren't feeling ogled by their husband, yeah, they're going to want to try to go get it somewhere else. Is that right? No.

John: Right, no, but it all stems from the stability of their relationship, honestly. And that's but that's why we're trying to sit here and say that these girls' night out, guys' night out are unnecessary if you're in a happy relationship. And if you're not in a happy relationship, they're still not necessary. It means break up and be single and do whatever you want, go wherever you want, and then get in a good relationship where those things aren't even appealing to you anymore. Or stay home and work on your relationship. Like, that's have a couple's night. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's honest. If you like to drink, like we don't drink, but if you like to drink, drink at home, have some cocktails at home, turn on some music. Like, you can have that experience or go to a nice dinner, come back home, and have some drinks and whatever, and now you're already home, you're closer to, you know, the room if that's where it ends up going.

Nicole: Alright, but or you can go to a dance studio. Like, it's like you know, like dance studio. That's because even when I was single, literally, my friends and I would just go and dance. Right, it's not going to be like we were single, and if a guy came up and he was cute, we'd be like, okay, cool, but literally, we used to go and dance and then go home because like that's all we knew how to do. It there wasn't a madhouse over there. We went there, and I believe you, but like I said, in those situations, that's what I tell guys. I'm like, look, the girls are just here to dance. They're not, you think they're here to get laid, they're not, but you're going to sidetrack their plan, and you're going to come in there like a smooth criminal and get them off of their plan. That's the thing. So that's why, like, a guy that knows what he's doing is going to be trying to do that. And so, so that's why I'm saying it's like it's just better to avoid the situation just in general, you know what I mean?

John: Well, I mean, okay, what does a guy's night out look like for a married guy? Because from my perspective, like I said earlier, what would happen if I went out, like there's nothing happening. I'm not even like focused on anybody else. Like, what does a normally like a guy's night out look like for married, I'm saying, you know, 'cause we've talked about the women, how like they're not in a happy relationship, this is probably how girls' night out goes, but if you are, then this is how it goes. So like, what about the guy side?

Nicole: I hate to bring it to you, but guys' night out, it's not very exciting at all, honestly. Like, for the most part, because literally, they're just trying to get away from a nagging wife. Like, that's what it is.

John: Okay, they just want to drink some beers with the bros.

Nicole: Okay, and women maybe ogle some girls. That's what you know I'm saying.

John: I'm just saying it's like, but they're not, most guys going on guys' night out, they're not going to nightclubs. That's kind of weird for go to strip clubs.

Nicole: Okay, like secretly, maybe they go to a strip club, but even secretly is not okay either. Even then, that's not really a guy that out. It's like, let's go to the strip club, get like a bunch of married guys, not likely.

John: Like, it's just, it does, that's not likely the case. Right now, bachelor party, different.

Nicole: Right, so but I would say guys' Night Out is just going to a bar and having drinks with buddies and talking like you're a big shot man but knowing that you're not.

John: Well, but like we talked about, what if, you know, your guy friend brings a girl over, and then now you're like, what if she then hits on you? I mean, it's still the same situation. Like, yes, women don't approach men, but it's still that situation where you can still appear available, and even if they know you're not available, they could still pursue you and put you in a weird situation. Then what if one of my friends is out was like, "Hey, your husband was talking to this blonde girl the other night." And I'm like, what?

Nicole: Yeah, exactly. No, yeah, so, so it's, it's just not a good idea, not a good plan. Yeah, there's plenty of other things, and even for guys, like there's plenty of other things that guys can do to still hang out with their friends.

John: Yeah, that is not go hiking, you know. Go hiking, go for a run, go to the gym.

Nicole: Right, um, I don't think, I mean, no, sometimes I've gone out for like lunch or coffee or something, you know, meet up with someone, and you know.

John: Something like that, yes. I just want to stress that it's not like I don't have friends. It's just about not doing inappropriate things in inappropriate places that single people do. That's all. You shouldn't want to. If you do, then you should really reflect on your relationship.

Nicole: Yeah, that's why I said, if you're a vegan, why are you hanging around a sausage factory? You can tell me all day long that you don't like sausage and you're not here to eat the sausage, but hey, I like... Why then? Why hold to this choice, right? Why not be like, okay, then I'll just go over here instead, right? That's all I'm saying. It's like, if you're like, no, we have to go to the nightclub, why? Why not go somewhere else, you know what I mean? Or like, our girls' trip, too, is also our guys' trip. Same thing. It's like, we're going to Cancun, right? Oh, because you got to go to the beach because you know you got to go to Cancun to go to the beach. Come on.

John: Well, it's a girls' trip is essentially like...

Nicole: The same as a bachelorette party. And to be honest, you're going to say different because you're talking about Vegas, which if any bachelorette is going to Vegas or bachelor party is going to Vegas, yeah, questionable, period, to me.

John: Well, people make exceptions for it.

Nicole: Yeah, that's also weird to me. Like the whole bachelorette being like the last time you're single. You're not single. You've been in a committed relationship. You're about to get married. The last time you can pretend like you're single, let's say. But you haven't been pretending you're single since you've been in a relationship, so why is this the last time you're pretending to be single when you haven't been pretending to be single since you got official with your boyfriend or girlfriend? And then now you have this one time, and then now you're going to go get married. Yeah, so I guess we can talk about that then. Bachelorette, bachelor party, most people... I went to my brother's fiance's bachelorette party, and it was wholesome. And I know that there are wholesome bachelorette parties, but that...

John: Wasn't it really like... Well, okay, so you didn't go to Vegas. We went to the beach, and then also you didn't go out. You didn't go to clubs, didn't go anywhere. Now, some of the girls did, but...

Nicole: Well, no, they went to like a bar that was right next to our house, but that was for like a few hours, too. Like, it was not even that level. But you didn't do any of it. It was a very actual beach trip, like a vacation. And a lot of people do similar things like that, but a lot of people also, like you said, go all out and act single, and you know, go to these bars and stuff. But it's still like... Well, but that was also planned ahead of time, and also, you know, but in the future, neither of us would go to a bachelor or bachelorette party, right?

John: Yeah, well, like if it was, if you had a brother or something, it'd be like, and it was along the same guidelines...

Nicole: Then I would let you do it. And she's like a sister to me, so that's why it was the thing. Because if it was anybody else, I'd be like, you know, no. Like, I don't want to put myself in that situation. But she is like a sister to me when she's about to be a sister. So, and it was, you know, it was her style, which is very much like chill and, you know, hang out. But a lot of bachelorette parties can be more wild. Some of them are, though, like how she had. But yeah, some of them get crazy. And if you think about it, yeah, you're wearing like all white. You want people to know that it's your bachelorette. You like want people to buy you drinks, and yeah, you know. I'm sure there are tons of people are going to be like, you just don't trust your partner. But again, it goes back to the same thing. It's like, why do you need all this attention if you're getting attention from your partner? And seeing a lot of bachelorette parties... Well, again, you went to Vegas, which like I said, Vegas, that's a lot of bachelor parties are... Well, Vegas, if it's bachelor or bachelorette, that's suspicious to me. And I'd be like, why do you want to do that? We need to have a long conversation.

John: Like, if before we got married, and you were like, I want to have a bachelor party in Vegas, I'd be like, we might need to reevaluate this situation.

Nicole: Yeah, I'm not even kidding. I agree. It's just 'cause why? 'Cause why, you know? It seems so... And I guess it's up to us to question these long-held beliefs because everyone, the majority of people are like, that's fine, right?

John: Right, but why is it fine? Like, is it... It's not really fine if you think about it, right? Why don't people adapt what we were actually thinking of doing at one time, but we just had too much stuff going on, is like inviting some couples along and having like a couple trip, right? Where it's like joined together, right? That makes way more sense to me.

Nicole: Yeah, or even taking, like, instead of doing a bachelorette, why don't you and your partner go on like a trip, just you two, kind of like a pre-honeymoon? You could save the money that you're doing for a bachelorette to do that, and you can still have like a bridal shower or whatever, you know, to have your girls there that are in your bridal party, and...

John: You could still have a separate get-together, but I don't understand these wild bachelorette parties. Bachelor parties are even scarier because I don't know any that are very chill. They normally all involve a stripper.

Nicole: Yeah, but the thing with... Yeah, that's a whole other thing. I've been to plenty of bachelor parties as well, and it's like, guys at bachelor parties are always like, oh yeah, we're going to go out there, we're going to get some girls, we're going to... Nothing ever happens, like...

John: Yeah, well, but they're trying. They're trying. They're trying.

Nicole: But man, it's like, the expectation of it is up here, but the actual reality... But then they just end up buying somebody. They want it's downplayed to here, but it's actually a little bit higher than that, so, you know.

John: So how, because if a woman wants to go wild, she can. A guy wants to go wild, that doesn't mean that he can.

Nicole: Yeah, but he's going to try really hard. Trying has the same intent as doing it. Look, I believe you. I agree. So, and then plus, if a guy tries so hard, what is he going to do? Just pay for a stripper, just pay for some girl to give him attention. And so again, they're just all really bad. It's just, if you're doing those things... I have a friend, one time, too, her boyfriend went on a bachelor party, uh-huh, and when he got back...

John: Not that long ago, she found out he was on Tinder. Yeah, and he was like, "Oh well, we were just all doing it," and she still, like, she didn't break up with him or anything. And I was just like, "What?"

Nicole: Right. Well, yeah, yeah. And part of it, maybe, you know, she knows that that wasn't going to happen anyway for him. Anyway, not but I know, but it's still wrong. That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's still wrong. It's like, you know, but the reality, like a lot of women know, any woman who's like, "My man is so undesirable he can be on Tinder. I don't care." I don't know anyone who thinks like that.

John: No, not, "I don't care," like he, but, or that it's not that big of a deal, not too worried about it. It's still the intent behind it.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah, I agree. No, I agree with the intent for sure. So, but the other thing too, then, because we talked about the bachelor and bachelorette parties, is the trips. The girl, so I was going to say, the new thing to do, you know, for like 2024, is being like, "This is out, and this is in." So, we're going to say Bachelorette and Bachelor parties out, and Joint couple Bachelor Bachelor are in.

John: Right. We need a name for it.

Nicole: You'll have to come back to me on that. We'll have to think of it. But you know, out, that's out. Yeah, we're over weird. We're actually liking our partners in 2024. Okay, we're like, we want to be around. It is kind of a weird thing that it's actually existed for so long, and that so many people are just acceptable of not only of having one but also participating in one.

John: Right. Well, and you know, I think that's kind of like one of the last things that are like filtering out because look at like weddings, you know, like with our wedding, we didn't do like the garter toss because that's just weird.

Nicole: Yeah, it's kind of weird, you know, like sitting there while your new husband takes off a garter with his teeth in front of your whole family and then throws it to somebody. That's weird. And like my wedding was like, yeah, like a lot of people don't do some of the really traditional stuff like that anymore. Why don't we do that with Bachelor bachelorette parties? Or, you know, at least make it like, like we said, like a couple's thing, and then have all your girls at your bridal shower or something. Like, I'm not saying like throw your friends away, but you don't need to be going out like you're single. And if you are single, do whatever the heck you want. Like, have invite all your single girlfriends and go on a girls trip, go on a, you know, go out to the bar. If you're single, it doesn't matter.

John: Yeah, yeah, if you're single, that's fine. Yeah, but like when you're in a very serious relationship, or even if you're in a relationship and you still want to do those things, again, you probably should check in and be like, "Do I even like this person that much?" You got to make a decision. Like, are you going to invest your time and energy into improving the relationship?

Nicole: Right, are you going to leave the relationship because you got one foot in, one foot out. Like, you're like, "I want to have my cake and eat it too." It's like, well, you know, "I'm not getting completely fulfilled here, so I'm going to come over here, and I'm not going to sleep with a guy, but I get attention from guys." Or, well, I think something too, because I'm like thinking about it in my head, that I think some people that are married or in serious relationships go on these trips too, to like, get away. Right, and again, that's like, why? Like, we spend every day together, and I'm never like, "Damn, I need a girls trip right about now." Like, "I need some estrogen around me." Like, no, like, I hang out with my friends I hang with and enjoy. To be honest, I would rather go on every single trip with you and I than like a girl's trip to wherever. Like, I love my girlfriends, don't get me wrong, but it's like, when you're married, you're in a different phase of your life, or a serious relationship where you're planning to get married.

John: Yeah, exactly. Like, this is the person you're building a life with. This is the person that you live with, you go to sleep with, you have kids, kid with. Like, this is your person. And so, I don't think it's very far-fetched to like, put that person right in a position where you want to do all the things with them. I mean, it comes down to like, to become one, right? That's kind of the idea. I mean, maybe not everyone subscribes to that, but so then why does one, like, you're going to split the one apart and go do girls' night out or guys' night out. Doesn't make sense. Or, you know what I'm saying? It's like, our girls' trip or guys' trip, like, doesn't make sense. Do it's like, well, you like, we talked about, you go hang out with your friends during the time that you have.

Nicole: And then you can take a trip with your partner. Like, it doesn't have to be, yeah, this crazy wild thing. Like, why are you living like you're single again? If you want to be single, then be single. Like, do what you need to do. But also, at the same point, like, if you want to be single and you're married, that's a time to have a talk with your partner and be like, "Hey, I'm missing something because this is really appealing to me." Like, I'm not saying just leave your husband or leave your wife. That's a good, but you need to like, sit them down and be like, "Hey, I've been really drawn to wanting to go out and do things that I used to do when I was single, and maybe I'm missing something here. Like, maybe we need to spend some more time together, or we need to spice things up, or we need to go on more dates." Like, I'm not saying just drop everything if you're feeling like you want to be single, but you do have to realize that that's not a normal reaction if you're in a relationship that's healthy and where you really are into it. And you might start to feel that way because you put yourself into the situation, you know, where now, let's say, you know, you're a woman, you're getting attention from, like, you like the feeling of getting this attention, so now you're getting addicted to that feeling, which is not where you should be getting that.

John: Which guys get that too, right? Or, same, yeah, you know, as a guy, like, you're getting addicted to that, that feeling, you know, whatever it is. Um, but, um, was going to say, oh, that this is the part where I have to, you know, be the, tell the guys, right, about, you should be setting the, these standards for the relationship, right? As a man, you should be saying, "Look, the girls' night out, guys' night out, we don't need to do those type of things." Right, like so, and explain it to like we're explaining it because again, like I said, I think, I mean, I would say a majority, uh, well, a lot of times, and guys will get hit with this when they'll try to do these things that are good for the relationship. It's, it's a thing when guys try to.

John: Protect the relationship. You're being insecure, you're being controlling, right? So, I just tell you guys, you have to be immune to all that language.

Nicole: I agree that women will say that. They'll say that, but I don't think it's for the right relationship because I would have been that woman. If my ex-boyfriend before you was like, "You can't do this," I'd be like, "But also, I was doing 50/50, so you can't tell me what to do," right? If we're bringing the same thing to the table. But there are two things. One is that if a woman truly values you and thinks that she should be the one, like we said in the other episode, and I've told a lot of my coaching clients, look, if you tell her, "We're going to exchange phones and have passwords to each other's phones and have our locations on," she should be leaping for joy. If she's not leaping for joy, then she thinks she can do better than you. She's not seeing you as high enough value because she should be like, "Damn, a lot of women want this guy. I got this guy that a lot of women want. I want to keep this guy." I think women should be jumping for joy because a lot of women don't trust men not to cheat or whatever, and so that's him being an open book.

John: It's a red flag on two sides. One, that she probably doesn't see you as high enough value, and two, that her values aren't in the right place. So, that's what I'm saying. For guys, look, if you get hit with the controlling, insecure, any of that stuff, look, it's healthy to have boundaries, right? And it's healthy to set the boundaries for the relationship, and you got to be immune to all that as a man. You have to be like, "I don't care. You can't be phased by being told that you're controlling." You got to be the man a woman respects.

Nicole: And that's what I'm saying. If a woman is going to say to a guy, "Hey, that's controlling," or "You're insecure," he's got to be able to look her right in the eyes and say, "I don't care. This is important to me. I'm the man." If you're not that guy, well, he has to be the man.

John: Right, but a woman is going to make a choice in that moment. You stare in the eyes, you say, "I'm the man." She's either going to leave, be like, "You're not the man," or she's going to be like, "Alright, I got like, you finally get it. I finally got a guy that gets it and sees what I want that I'm not going to tell any guy. Now, I can be vulnerable, submissive to this guy because he's strong enough to actually put it out there," not asking permission. He's like, "No, this is how it is."

Nicole: Yeah, but he has to be the man. That's the only thing. I feel like a lot of men who aren't the man are going to just hear this and be like, "This is what you need to do," and they don't take any accountability for themselves. You got to be holding up your side of it too, right? Like I said, it's not, there's no girl's not out, it's no guy's not out either. You're not fulfilling her right in all the ways that she needs. That's why these behaviors even pop up anyway.

John: Another thing that I think is very popular is that people just get together to live separate lives still. And so, I think that's also why they think going out is fine and like doing that kind of stuff because they're just like, they didn't become one. They're just still two separate people living under one house, like roommates basically, or like friends. Some couples are more friendly than even romantic, and they've just kind of just existed with each other, and so they go about living their own separate lives. And that's where a lot of this comes into too.

Nicole: And some people, you know, and they've rightly said because there are books on the subject. I've read the books on the subject, obviously. But they talk about this idea of, you know, specifically even like books like "Mating in Captivity," right? So, the idea behind it is that if you have intimacy, then you have a loss of sexual attraction, right? And so, like, it's the actual separation that creates sexual attraction, but the intimacy that creates love. And so, you're in this balance between the two. But I believe that you're playing at a lesser level, not the depth that you can. At a surface level, yes, that's true. But if you go deeper than that, then you can get beyond that where it actually starts to become not true, where the deeper the intimacy increases the attraction.

John: I feel like also some couples that don't have the intimacy and also don't have the desire or the attraction, you know, they're so far apart now, right? That's why they go to Magic Mike shows and guys' night out, you know, because they're like even further away.

Nicole: Well, it's like the familiarity is what the argument is, right? And I disagree with it. Like I said, on a surface level, I think you can have a relationship that is at that level where too much familiarity equals less attraction. But I think there's a deeper level of relationship that is beyond that because a lot of people have made the argument that says, "Well, it's important to have your own privacy or have your own life." And again, I'm not saying that you can't have friends and things that you do apart from the other person. I do think that that's valuable. But a lot of people would say, "No, you got to have like your own privacy and a separate life," and these things, and you just come together to be a couple. And that, I think you can operate that way, and if you do, then what those books say is true. Then you have to make sure that you don't become too familiar and don't get too close. Otherwise, that's just so weird though.

John: But I think instead of it being too familiar, I think it just becomes your new baseline.

Nicole: Without going into like, this is kind of like a whole separate thing what we're talking about, but I think it is like just a new baseline. And like you said, you just have to add more to it. You have to make sure that it's above that. So, I don't think it goes down, but I think that you need to think more about doing the things to show your partner that you desire them because it's become like your baseline of how you operate. But sometimes, because men do this too with like the romance.

John: Sometimes it becomes a bit like you're not doing it as much, or in a new way, or a way that makes your partner feel that way, right? And we're all changing in our relationship, so it's like you have to constantly check in with each other, right?

Nicole: Unless you have something else you want to cover, because I feel like Bachelorette and Bachelor trips are the same as a girl's trip or a guy's trip or things like that. So unless you can think of anything, but I think, like I said, a lot of people are going to be resistant to this. I guess we could say that. And it's like, I get it because I was there at one point, as you were as well. But if you really think about it, what we're saying makes sense, even though the majority of people would disagree with it. It's about respect, I think for me, at the core, that's what it is, right? Because if you hear all this and you're still like, "They're crazy," then I would say you don't really respect your partner if you're fighting so hard to keep your guys' night out or your whatever, you know. And just about every person that's said, "Dang, I made a mistake," were the exact same people that said, "I would never do this." So, you might think you know yourself, right? But do you need to put yourself into temptation's way, you know what I mean?

John: Yeah, you should be resistant to it, I agree. I think if you're in the relationship where all your needs are being met, then you have extra armor. However, the majority of people that thought they were untouchable find their faults when they put themselves into temptation's way. And so, do you want to be that? They weren't fully... Anyway, maybe it's more of a guy thing because I see it more as a guy thing. You'd probably see it more as a girl thing because that's your perspective. But I see it more as like, guys have a harder time because guys typically are the ones that are giving in physically, doing that kind of stuff. And that's what we're talking about when we're talking about a nightclub, is giving in physically. And I'm not saying women don't do it, but I'm saying that a woman is not going to throw away her relationship as often as a man for a one-night stand. But she's getting more opportunities to do so. Understand, kind of, it balances out. Also, it's like Russian Roulette, though. Guys are not very good at sex, so if you're going home with this guy, you are risking that, whereas a guy can just get whatever he wants. It's not the same skill. But if she's only had bad sex, she's not going to know the difference. So that argument is going to be taken off. She still doesn't want to add to that tally another bad... She thinks it's good. She thinks it's good, even more. Besides, women aren't having sex with guys in order to enjoy themselves; they're having sex with guys in order to prove themselves because they're not being fulfilled in their relationship. Which again, that doesn't excuse... I'm just saying, like, if you look at every person who's cheated and you say, "Did you intend to cheat?" 99% of them are going to say no, it just happened, right? Like, I was there. 99% of them are going to have an underlying reason that drove them to even being pushed to that. But don't put yourself in this situation. Work on your relationship instead. That's all I'm saying because you're going to become a percentage, just like everyone thinks they're the best driver, right? But people get in accidents, you know. It happens. So the same thing, like, you might think that you're untouchable... Not even going to say what I was going to say. Uh, sexual acts are not an accident, like a car accident, like, oops, I accidentally just... you know. But one thing leads to another, so it's not an accident, but it's like... It's called self-control, though. You're still guilty as charged. Like, I'm not trying to say anyone escapes responsibility for it. I'm just saying that it's like you put yourself in a situation where you make a bad judgment call. That's not... I'm just saying, in a car accident, someone can hit you, and it not be your fault. That's not the case. It takes two to tango. Takes two to horizontal Mambo. Okay, if I'm on a diet, I'm not going in Krispy Kremes, okay? I can swear to you up and down I will not eat a donut today, but if I stand there and they're like, fresh-made donuts, the hot sign flashes on, and they're like, "Would you like a free sample?" You know what I'm saying? It's like...

Nicole: So, I understand what you're saying about not even go there, but also, self-control. Self-control is key.

John: Well, yeah, but don't test your self-control. That's what I'm saying. Is don't test it. There's no need to test it, right? You know what I'm saying? Like, you think you're stronger than you are, but you're not. That's what I'm saying. It's like...

Nicole: Yeah, but some people are.

John: Some people are, but you don't need to find out, do you? Like, you know.

Nicole: I agree with that. I agree. That's right. And someone else that's married to you or is dating you doesn't need to find out either. So that's like, think about it. Or your children too, you know. So, yeah. Like, where have we gone? Okay, so yeah. So we'll end that. We'll talk about our relationship. So that it falls on me. So it was kind of what we were talking about a little bit because we talked... We got into some discussions about falling into the rut of showing sexual desire and the importance of it to a man. Because again, and I think this is useful for women to know because I didn't realize that women didn't know this. Is two things. One is that a woman's sexual desire, like I was talking about before, is the most important thing to a man, period. It's not women think maybe it's frequency of sex. It's not. It's the actual enthusiasm, the actual desire shown. And then also, in the way that men want that to be... What you need to tell because that's what women don't know. So, women, I guess, let's say, men want you to show your depraved self, your [__] self to them, right? As like selfishly, right? It's like, I want you to do things to me. I want you to, you know, make me whatever, you know. Like, we'll try to keep it not too... Not too... You can, in your head, like whatever your depraved, like selfish sexual desires are in your head, that's what the man wants to hear because he doesn't... It's not that you want to necessarily do things to him. That's great, or that you have sex with him, but it's...

John: It's that so, and then on the flip side for the man, obviously, it's the romance, right? It's like, because that's what women, you know, the most is that that's what shows like, I guess I would say like a man feels loved by a woman if she shows sexual desire. That's the primary way, whereas a woman feels, and correct me if I'm wrong, if anything, if you don't agree with this, but a woman feels the most loved by a man by the romance that he shows her.

Nicole: Yeah, I would say so.

John: Yeah, so that's what we talked about. So it was good, but it was interesting. But it's good to check in, and that's what we were talking about is that because I felt like I was doing the things to make him feel desired, but I wasn't doing it in this selfish way, like he just...

Nicole: Right, which she was trying to be. So I'm like, I don't want to be selfish, you know? Like, I don't want it to be all about me; it's supposed to be about you. So I was trying to make it about you, but you're like, no, that's wrong, be selfish. And I'm like, what? This makes no sense. But if you watch any porno, then you will understand it because, okay, well, we already had that conversation, but any porno is going to be about the woman making the noises and how much she's enjoying it. And right, it's like that's what the focus is, is whether it's female porn or male porn, it's always still the focus on the woman's enjoyment. So that's why I think that is, that's the thing, obviously.

John: Yeah, but I think it's hard as a woman to, like, because I think women understand that, but I think they don't understand like telling a man what they want because that seems selfish. And also, if you look at some of the comments on our videos, guys so butthurt these days, like, why can't you just take care of yourself? Why can't you do this? So, like, it really has...

Nicole: Conditioned women, true. And so, like, they feel like they have to do everything on their own or not be too selfish or not ask for too much because it's so heavily pushed in all aspects, right? So that's why when we were talking about this, and you were like, oh, you really didn't know. I'm like, no, and I don't know any, no woman has ever told me what you told me. So I don't know if some women know and I'm just late to the game or what, but like, it's just not normal, especially today with how men act today. Like, they make women feel so bad for wanting things, and so that's, we have been conditioned like a majority of men act that way, so that's like, it's ingrained in us.

John: Yeah, no, I agree. And it's, I mean, I guess it's kind of the bomb. I don't know for sure, that's why I was like surprised that most women don't know that. But I think it's the same way that women don't realize that a man doesn't know, like again, like the secret for me, for men, okay, if you want to make a woman fall madly in love with you and just be obsessed with you, is to validate her emotions. It's such a simple thing for her to be like, I'm really upset, and then, you know, even if she's upset at you, instead of you saying, I didn't do it, or like, whatever, like, don't be upset, yeah, yeah, to just be like, oh, I'm sorry you feel that way, tell me more. Like, you know, like that's it, then she's like, now she's just going to melt, right? So, but it's the secret, right? So, but if we're to flip it and say, women, what's the secret to a guy? Be a depraved [__], you know, show him your, your, your, your, um, uh, selfish [__] desires, like bam, you got the guy. He'll do whatever you want now. It's like, like, he's, he's like, yeah, this chick digs me, she, you know, that's the thing, this chick digs me. So that's it, you know?

Nicole: Yeah, now we've given both of the secrets, so everybody should be good now, right?

John: They got all the secrets they need, so let's hope.

Nicole: Alright, we'll see you next time. Through every fault, we find our way.