Nicole [00:00:00]: I'm glad that the generation now is shying away from dating app. Now they're shifting to wanting to meet their partner in person. On Instagram, like anyone could DM them and like have a conversation. And on dating apps that they can just swipe on whoever and go on as however many dates as they want, they're over that because they know what that produces. We met on a dating app. So I'm not saying that dating apps are bad, but they are at this point harder to navigate because there is a lot of catfishing people on there scams. There's, there's people cheating on people.

John [00:00:37]: Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the better than Perfect podcast where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:02]: That's right.

John [00:01:03]: And today we're going to be talking about situationships.

Nicole [00:01:06]: Yes.

John [00:01:07]: That they're, they're dying. There's going to be a funeral for situationships.

Nicole [00:01:11]: I heard they're a thing of the past, which I think is a good thing. Yeah, I guess the younger generation is over the, what would you call it, like the wishy washy ambiguity. Yeah, they're like trying to get straight to the point, which like we've done some episodes on like dating and you know, being mysterious and things like that. And I, I'm not saying that those things don't still apply.

John [00:01:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:39]: But I think that the end of the situationship is a good thing because I feel like it gives people an excuse to be, to not put all their eggs in one basket or like normalize that sort of thing. And I think that when they define like a situationship, I would say it's like being confused and not knowing what you are like, well into like dating the person. Not like three dates in, that's not a situationship, but like a few months in and you're, you don't know where you guys stand.

John [00:02:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:18]: And you've like made strives towards being in a relationship, but you haven't defined it and you haven't asked questions. That's what I would call a situationship. And so I still think in the beginning, first few dates, you don't want to be like, I'm looking for a relationship and my, my next husband or. Yeah, you know, you don't want to go out the gate with that. But I kind of like the, that the situationships are coming to an end because I feel like, the situationship itself in general has kind of degraded committed relationships and potentially even marriage, because it's normalized. This sort of, like, let's just both be free for, like, a long time. And it's confusing. And, like, if you really like somebody who doesn't want to commit, you want to still keep them around. So you're maybe like, hanging on when they're not giving you what you want. And then the other person, you know, might be afraid to commit, like, wants to, but isn't doing it, or they don't plan to, but they're not telling you. So it's just completely confusing and doesn't really help anyone, obviously. It just wastes a lot of time. So I kind of like that the younger generations are like, no, I'd rather either be single or, like, we're gonna date sort of thing, because I think that that's essentially how it should be. Like, you either like, this person enough where you're gonna commit and you're gonna try it out with a relationship, like, be official, or you're gonna be single and you're gonna move on to your next dating situation. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think it takes three months to figure out if you like somebody enough to exclusively date them.

John [00:04:10]: Yeah, yeah, I think. I think it's just in general. I mean, we talk about on the podcast about moving things along in the timeline quickly, and I think that's good to do. Even though some people would say, oh, that's not good. It is good because you need to figure out what are you doing. So you don't waste a lot of time, too, because what ends up happening is relationships that are like a couple years, few years old. That's where it's sort of this gray area. Like, you're comfortable with status quo, and you're not even in the best mindset at that stage in the relationship, usually, to decide if you want to commit, commit for marriage at that point, because it's better when it's actually more recent and you haven't fallen into a rut with a lot of people who fall into ruts, you know? But the same thing, even just with dating, is that if you're seeing someone, sort of seeing them for months at a time, then why would you commit? Like, why would you make it official? So. But then nothing advances, nothing happens past that, and then it causes all kinds of drama because then are you actually free? One person thinks that they're in a committed relationship, the other person doesn't. But no one said Anything either way.

Nicole [00:05:35]: Right, Right. Well. And I would blame women. And here's why.

John [00:05:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:41]: Because we, like, even though men are the keepers of their relationship, like you said, essentially if we give them a relationship without making them commit, they're not going to, they're going to keep you in this limbo when.

John [00:05:56]: Relationship. You mean sex? If you give them a sexual relationship

Nicole [00:05:59]: or even like, if you're available to like hang out or like they're getting basically like relationship

John [00:06:07]: benefits.

Nicole [00:06:08]: Yes, benefits.

John [00:06:09]: Sex.

Nicole [00:06:10]: Well, but not just that, because like

John [00:06:14]: on the man side, right, like, you know, normally we'd say a woman's getting relationship benefit, like the boyfriend benefits. But I mean, it is obviously it's more than that, but that is the thing that has the leverage that the woman is holding. Right?

Nicole [00:06:28]: Right. So, yeah, So I would say that it is women's fault that situationships even happened because back in the day too, like, women were more like persistent on being courted and like, did not give men really the time of day unless they were like, properly courted.

John [00:06:49]: Sure. Right.

Nicole [00:06:50]: And then we kind of got rid of that and like, men got kind of lazy. But it's not even their fault because if we're giving them everything, right. And they're, they're not having to court us, then they're gonna think it's okay. And so they're not going to commit because like you said, why should, why should they? And that's honestly what I feel like is also contributing to men not wanting to get married.

John [00:07:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:15]: Because if they have a wife, basically, wife benefits.

John [00:07:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:22]: Then there's why are they gonna do it? And if your relationship started out as a situationship where you gave him relationship benefits when you weren't in one, why is he gonna take an even bigger commitment when he was afraid of taking that commitment? You know what I mean? And so that's why I'm saying that I do think a lot of this is women's fault because. And I understand as a woman, like, and I have been in situationships before we got together in some sort of way, so I understand why it happens. I understand when you wanna be with somebody that like, you give them more than they really honestly should get in the timeline of the situation or like what you're getting back. But at the same time, like, you, like, we have to realize that we are kind of perpetuating the situationship as women by doing that. And so we think it's scary to like, have boundaries with men and be like, no, like, I want to go on a nice date or like, no, like, we're not going to do this until we're like official. Or like, you know, I'm like, I need to be in a relationship to do such and such. Like, that feels more scary to women. It feels like they're going to run the men off. And it might, honestly, because at this point, men have gotten again, lazy where they're like, oh, well, I can go find some other girl that's going to give me girlfriend benefits without having to make her my girlfriend.

John [00:08:50]: But. But then now, now girls saying no.

Nicole [00:08:55]: Right?

John [00:08:55]: So that's how it stops.

Nicole [00:08:57]: Right, exactly.

John [00:08:58]: Because then it's like you can't just run off somewhere else. But yeah, I think that is, I think that's true. Well, because also not to just pile on women, but I mean, most men are okay with a situationship. Most women are not so much. Right. So I mean, I was in a long, like a three year situationship and the way that it went on was I just didn't say anything. I just showed up at whatever city, just whatever. I disappeared. And then they came back and no questions about. There was no questions. No questions about my marital status. No questions about where I actually, like, was I seeing anyone else or anything like that. No questions like that.

Nicole [00:09:44]: Well, side note, if someone's meeting up with you, they shouldn't have to ask if you're married. They probably should ask if you're single seeing someone else. But they shouldn't have to ask if you're married because most people will assume if you're dating them, you shouldn't be married.

John [00:09:58]: I mean, in that situation, though, the, the context is that we're going to places, but never to the city I lived in, always to other places.

Nicole [00:10:10]: Yes, but you still.

John [00:10:12]: No, but yeah, I mean, yeah, obviously, like, that was not the. That was back in the days. And that was not the bad John days. Yeah, the bad. Yeah, that was. I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying that. Yeah. You know, like, in that case, I was, I was fine with it because I'm like, okay, well I can just go, come and go as I please and there's no requirements on my part of anything, you know, so why would I mess with the situation, Right? So that I'm being honest. Like, this is like, I appreciate it's like, so that. Because I could, you know, try to pretend like that's not the case. But that was the case. It was like. And most guys are probably gonna be like that. Like most guys that would be in a situation where they're they're able to have women, Right. If a guy is not able to get a woman or get a date or, you know, whatever, then obviously he has a different viewpoint on this. Like, he's going to definitely not like situationships because it might be happening on. On the other side where the woman is not committing. And he's like, what are we? Like, why does she keep on. You know that. What was that? Remember that? This song, the. What is it? The. We're like, what is it? When we're at. When We Were Young, the song that the band Offspring Self Esteem, remember?

Nicole [00:11:44]: Oh, yeah.

John [00:11:44]: Like that Self Esteem song. It's like the more you suffer, the more it shows you really care, right? Yeah. You know what I'm talking about that song, right? Where the girl is like, just going off and like, she just uses him whenever she wants to, but he just like hangs around. Like he's. That's the opposite side of a situationship. But for most of the time, a guy is fine with it because who cares? So that's why a woman. It does come down to a woman to put a stop to him. Be like, hey, look, what are we? Yeah, you know, I want to be a girlfriend, whatever. And then of course, at that point, the man should have the captain of the ship talk if he wants to actually get into a committed relationship, which will set the tone for the relationship where he is the one who is the authority in the relationship. And, you know, and he has that conversation. So that's all cleared up. So.

Nicole [00:12:37]: Yeah, well, I would hope too that. Cause I guess I would be a little concerned if a guy was trying to push a situationship. And then if I was like, so what are we? And then he's like, well, we can be together, but I'm the captain of the ship. I would be like, hold on. Like, I understand what you're saying, but you didn't even want to be the captain of the ship until now.

John [00:13:01]: Well, yeah, but he's like, look, like

Nicole [00:13:05]: the situationship we were in the dinghy and now you want to be the captain of the ship. Yeah, like, that I feel like would be hard to navigate in a way. Like, I'd be like, okay, but you went from not wanting to commit to now you want to take on full responsibility. Like, are you going to be able to do that?

John [00:13:25]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:26]: You know what I mean?

John [00:13:27]: I see that. But I mean, a guy should always be carrying himself in that capacity anyway, regardless of whatever situation he's in.

Nicole [00:13:36]: Yeah.

John [00:13:36]: Because that's how you should act as A man is that by de facto I'm going to be the man in the relationship. If you're not doing that, then, you know, obviously having an explicit conversation of the captain of the ship is important so that it's clear, but it should be just. It should be coming across in the way that you're coming across in the relationship anyway. So.

Nicole [00:14:00]: Yeah, like how you behave. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But I am glad that the younger generation is getting rid of this because honestly, it was like my generation, Millennials and Gen Z. Yeah. Maybe even Gen Z is kind of leaning more towards this, though. But like, we unfortunately kind of started this. I mean, I can't think of it earlier.

John [00:14:25]: No, it's. It. What happened. What started. It was a couple of things. It was dating apps first coming in.

Nicole [00:14:32]: That's true.

John [00:14:32]: And Instagram, which is basically a dating app, right? So. So that what happened was because you had all this options now, options and like. And it was fresh, right? I mean, when dating apps first came out, it wasn't like it is now or.

Nicole [00:14:49]: No, I remember.

John [00:14:50]: I remember Tinder for sure. It was just normal people on them, right. It wasn't like weirdos on them now, you know, like, now. Now it's. I'm not saying there's not any normal people on dating apps, but from the, the coaching clients that I. I talk to now, it's a. It's heavily skewed towards. Is this girl trying to sell her only fans on. On this dating app? Is this a bot? Is this a Nigerian phishing scam? Is this a really weird girl? That's like, why is she still on a dating app? And at this, you know, like, yes,

Nicole [00:15:22]: like, oh, no, not one of those.

John [00:15:24]: There's a lot, A lot of that. Whereas before it was just normal people, right? It's like. And also, even when you went to your Instagram and someone DM'd, you slid into your DMs. It wasn't an automated message that someone spent a thousand of them out, you know, so it was like. Yeah, so it was like the world was fresh and you could just like go from. From date to date and there's so many options to look at. But. But now it's kind of changed, right? And also what's happened too, is that even what's happened has changed now too, is OnlyFans one out of. What was the stat? I think it was.

Nicole [00:15:59]: I don't know.

John [00:16:00]: I forgot I looked it up before, but I'd seen the stat because we were going to talk about it, but it's something like. I thought it was like 30% of women under, like 30 years old have an OnlyFans account. It's some insane number. It's like a number where you're like, what? But that's also changed the landscape with dating apps and with all these things where now people are like, okay, I would just rather be in a relationship, like, and know that I'm in a relationship, like. Cause there's. It's not this green field. You know, there's all these options out there now. Now it's like, I just want, like, that's not fun anymore.

Nicole [00:16:43]: Yeah, no, I think you're 1,000% right. Sorry, millennials, for blaming you. I think it is dating apps, actually. Now that you say that, that makes a thousand percent sense in my mind. Because before, like, I remember when Tinder first came out and like, I feel like that was like the first one that really took off. Like, there were other ones. Yeah, Before. I don't know, the ones that, like, were around before Tinder, but I feel like Tinder was the one that, like, really blew up dating apps. And like, you said, this was on your phone. Yeah, but I feel like, honestly, even early Instagram was, like, still very innocent back then. Like, it was really just people that you knew, the filters were horrible and like, you're taking a picture of your smart water bottle. You know what I mean? Like, it was not what it was. Like, I remember when Instagram first came out.

John [00:17:29]: So it's photos.

Nicole [00:17:31]: Yeah. For photographers. Yeah, it was. It was not what it is today. But I think a thousand percent what you said is true is that there suddenly became all these options. Like, it wasn't like you had to date, like, the person that you went to school with or like someone from your job or someone from your hobby. Like, now you could find somebody that you know was maybe like one town over and you didn't mind that it was like a 30 minute drive to see each other.

John [00:17:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:18:00]: But you would have never, like, came across that person.

John [00:18:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:18:03]: Had it not been for dating apps. And then.

John [00:18:05]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:18:06]: Like, you have so many options and then, you know, you're like, more picky in a way that can be bad. Like, I don't. I think being picky in the right way. We did an episode on this, I'm pretty sure is not a bad thing. But it's gotta be about, like, the core beliefs. Not like, is he 6:3? But now it's gotten even crazier. Now it is like, guys are lying about their height because they don't want to be penalized or they're changing their age, so they don't want to be penalized or doing whatever, you know. And I'm not saying women aren't doing it either.

John [00:18:39]: Like the arms race.

Nicole [00:18:42]: Yeah. It's turned into this tool, honestly. And it definitely promoted. The grass is greener over here. Or no, it's over here. Or no, it's over here. You know, like, it did make people commitment phobes.

John [00:18:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:57]: Because they had so many options. Like, they didn't feel like, oh, yeah, they were taking it seriously because, oh, I could just swipe a little bit and get another date. Thirty minutes after the date I just went on.

John [00:19:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:09]: You know what I mean? And so. Yeah, no, I think you're 1000% right. That that is what caused situationships. And even though those are still around, I like that the generation now that's like, dating is trying to get rid of that and that I do feel like they're kind of prioritizing more like committing and like spending their lives with someone that. And. And they take care of picking that person. You know what I mean? Like, they put effort into choosing the right person. And I feel like even if you're like, okay, I'm gonna be single or I'm gonna date, I think you should. If you're serious enough about somebody to commit, you should commit.

John [00:19:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:54]: And try it out. Rather than, you know, be in this situationship where eventually, if you're in a situationship long enough, like you said, like, I would think that the person that you were with would be like, this has gone on for a really long time. Like, what is what. I need to say something.

John [00:20:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:12]: You know what I mean? Like, if you're in a situationship for months, like five, six months, you need to be like, what is going on?

John [00:20:19]: It becomes weird to say that because it's just like, you know, have you ever had it where you forgot someone's name?

Nicole [00:20:26]: Yeah. And then you're trying to.

John [00:20:28]: And then you talk to them. A couple. Like when you don't know someone's name, if the, the first or second time that you talk to them after that you don't say, oh, sorry, I forgot your name when you told me like, last week, that then it's not awkward. Right, Right. But if you don't do that in the. In the first or second time afterwards that you meet them and you still don't know their name, then you're in trouble. Like, after 10 interactions, you're not going to say, hey, by the way the last, you know, 10 times we talked, I pretended like I knew your name, but I didn't know what it was. I forgot it. Like, what is it you're not going to do? It's weird, right? So it's the same thing with the situationship. It's like now, you know, you go farther enough down the road, it's like, what are we?

Nicole [00:21:13]: Right.

John [00:21:14]: It's like, what do you mean, what are we? We've been doing this for like weeks or months, you know, so. Yeah, it seems weird at that point. So.

Nicole [00:21:22]: Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. But I do think it's a good thing. I actually saw this like, tick tock earlier that had like 10 million likes and it was essentially like promoting love and relationships and marriage. Because it was talking about, like, well, I say marriage, but didn't specifically say it, but it was talking about like choosing somebody to spend the rest of your life with. And it's like. And it made it. The way they worded it was just very. I mean, it really resonated with me.

John [00:21:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:56]: Because I'm like, that's exactly how I feel about you. But I think that that's why, like, what the younger generation's trying to get back to, like, they don't want these, like, situationships. They don't want these temporary things. Like, they want somebody that's gonna grow old with them. And most people do want that. But it's like in this era of situationships and dating apps and getting another date as soon as you can, like swiping.

John [00:22:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:27]: We have like lost that. Like, we also thought it was cool to not care.

John [00:22:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:32]: You know what I mean? Because they didn't care. So I'm not going to care. And then nobody cares. And then you are in a situationship for six months. You know what I mean? And that's why, you know the title thing that you were talking about how like situationships are for cowards.

John [00:22:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:49]: We need to dive into that because it's not wrong. Like, like you said, even if you're in the faces of like getting to know somebody and you're still kind of unsure, like, once someone is sure someone needs to say something or like, even if you're not sure, you should be having a conversation.

John [00:23:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:10]: And being like, hey, like, I enjoy spending time with you, but I fear we're not compatible in this area. Like, have an actual discussion.

John [00:23:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:19]: Rather than like avoiding it because you want the benefits of like the good stuff, but you also don't want to Talk about the messy stuff of like, are you guys, are you good together? Like, do they want to be with you? Like, you know, like people are just avoiding that. And so they just stay in this limbo for way longer than they should. And then again, that just perpetuates. It perpetuates this everywhere. Yeah, the apps perpetuate it. But then like we were talking about with the women thing, like, if women just give a man like a relationship without him having to commit.

John [00:24:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:00]: Then he's not going to, he's not going to take that step. And then like, yes, he might leave you, but if another girl's still doing that, going to give him the same thing and not ask questions, he's going to go right over there.

John [00:24:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:11]: He's going to find someone will give him the, you know, benefits. But he doesn't have to do anything. He's got to easy out. And like, men want an easy out. That's why they are afraid of divorce. It's not an easy out.

John [00:24:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:24]: That's why they're terrified of that.

John [00:24:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:25]: And so.

John [00:24:26]: Exactly. That's good.

Nicole [00:24:26]: A man is going to love a situationship because it's an easy out. He can just be like, well, were never officially together.

John [00:24:33]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:24:33]: Like how many women listening to this right now? I've heard a man say that. Probably every single one. So he's going to blame you.

John [00:24:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:41]: For the reason he didn't commit anyway. So make him own up to it.

John [00:24:45]: And really a woman has to be the one that asks for the commitment. That's what I always say anyway. Because again, because the man does need the leverage to have the captain of the ship talk. And he needs to be the one that's the authority in the relationship. And the only way he has that leverage if the woman is asking him for their relationship. So she has to bring up the topic and she has to have the. She has to basically be like, look, you can buy it or you can, you know, or you can leave the store, you're done looking, you know, like that's it. Like, there's no try before you buy here. You know, your trial period has ended up, you know, she's got to do that because it's also backwards. Like if a guy asks a woman to be his girlfriend or committed relationship, then it kind of puts him in a more like, it's not going to be as attractive to a woman. I mean, I'm sure that a lot of women would say no, I'd rather the guy ask. Or either could. But in reality, when we're being real about like a man being masculine, his natural instinct is going to be to not be in a committed relationship because he doesn't need to. He can get away with it. Right. And so the woman is actually the one that needs to ask for the thing that she wants. Right. Because if the guy wants the committed relationship, unfortunately the subtext behind that is that this guy is desperate or needy. Right. Even though that's not necessarily true. We know that that's not true. It just, it communicates that subtly, that. And so it doesn't have the same effect of a woman does that. So in order to really end the situationship situation, like you said, it has to be the women that have to really say, no, we're not going to do this. Yeah, yeah. They have to not give it up. Like, you know, like, I mean, we had that one guest. Yeah. And she was like, what did she say?

Nicole [00:26:55]: She said six months or something.

John [00:26:56]: Yeah. For no sex.

Nicole [00:26:57]: You were like, what? And then you were like, actually, I agree with you.

John [00:27:01]: But it actually does make sense. Right? I mean, that's a hard pill to swallow there. But maybe even if you're not that strict, still, it's like, hey, if you're respecting yourself as a woman, as a lady, if you want to be treated like a lady, you gotta be like, look, I don't just show up at your house, right.

Nicole [00:27:19]: Whenever you ask.

John [00:27:20]: Like, we don't just like have casual sex. That's not, you know, I mean, like, maybe you went on a date, things are going good, whatever, you had sex with the guy. But then it's like, but now it's like, all right, after that, then, okay, now what are we? Or like, you know, shortly after that, like a couple more dates, it's like, okay, you know, I'm not going to just be a call girl for you. Like, that doesn't happen. Right? Yeah, that's what it, what it, it has to be. So, yeah, that, that's that. Otherwise it's going to be situation shift.

Nicole [00:27:52]: No, and I agree with you. Like, there is something about like a woman asking, like, what are we? And like having that conversation. I agree with you. And I also think it's important for a woman to do it because a woman needs to learn how to vet in that way and have that serious conversation and know when to walk away from a man. Because obviously we've lost that by like women just staying with men that aren't committing to them. So I think by a woman having to ask, like, what are we? Or like, I am ready for us to be in a committed relationship. Where are you at? And, like, based on his answer, having to walk away if he's like, well, I'm enjoying how we are, like, you know, which I'm not saying, like, instantly walk away from that. If you want to have a conversation, do that. But if you walk away instantly, I wouldn't be upset at you either, because that's an answer, essentially. You know what I mean? But I do think that that is important because I think women, like you said, need to learn to cut that off. Like, cut off giving girlfriend benefits to a man that has not, like, told you how he feels about you and committed and, like, you should ask him, you know, like, he should. Well, I should say he should make you feel like he's invested in you and interested in you.

John [00:29:14]: Like, would be right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:16]: And if you're confused, I mean, definitely ask the question, obviously. But if you feel like it's mutual.

John [00:29:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:24]: You don't really run a risk of asking, like, what are we? Or, like, I want to be in a committed relationship.

John [00:29:32]: Yeah. You got to be a good fish. You know, it's like, you got to feel when to set the hook.

Nicole [00:29:37]: Yeah.

John [00:29:38]: Like, you know what I mean? There's a little bit of a feel to it.

Nicole [00:29:41]: Yeah.

John [00:29:41]: It's like when the first nibble comes, if you set the hook, you lose the fish. Right. But if you wait too long and then you try to set the hook, then it's gone.

Nicole [00:29:49]: Yeah.

John [00:29:49]: So it's like, you got to kind of feel it. It's like, okay, is he ready? Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:54]: Yeah, exactly.

John [00:29:55]: You know, that's how.

Nicole [00:29:56]: Yeah. So I do think it's important.

John [00:29:59]: But then it does flip. It does flip when the guy does propose. Right. So when you're in the committed relationship, then he's got to be like, okay.

Nicole [00:30:08]: Yeah. But I feel like at that point, you should know, but.

John [00:30:12]: Yeah, you should. I mean, you should definitely know before you propose. But the same thing. The girl should kind of know. Okay.

Nicole [00:30:18]: Right.

John [00:30:18]: If I tell this guy. Yeah. But I mean, I guess in that situation, it can be kind of, you know, can put him to the test where he has to decide because he might think. Have thought ahead of time. Like, okay, well, this girl's just available when I. When I want her. Like, she doesn't have any.

Nicole [00:30:37]: Like, I don't have to do anything. I just gotta send a text message and she's over here. Wow. Okay. That's easy.

John [00:30:42]: Yeah. So now it's gonna put him to

Nicole [00:30:44]: the test and don't make it easy for him. Yeah, don't give him all the things that he hasn't. He has not got boyfriend privileges yet. Don't give him the boyfriend privileges.

John [00:30:54]: And again, a lot of the reason why women start doing this I think more so. I mean there's the whole sexual liberation thing, but I don't think that's even the thing. I think it has to do more with the dating apps. And the dynamics of it is that when dating apps first came out it was just like, just guys and girls on there and there was no. But then what ended up happening is that over time it ends up sorting itself out where it's like, oh, most of these women are actually liking these guys, the top 10% of guys. And then those guys are realizing they got something, something special here. They can just play this game. This dating app is like, oh, why do I need to commit to any of these girls? I can just go and, and find a new girl to come over every single night. I can have a new girl come over. Right. And so the, those guys are the ones that all these women are getting into situationships with because they're like, well I, I like this guy, he was the best one. So I'm just wait for him. But they don't realize that there's all these other women that are doing the

Nicole [00:31:56]: same thing that you'll be waiting forever.

John [00:31:57]: Exactly. And it's created a situation where he can have the situation whereas before, without the power of the dating app. Yeah, he could go out. Like you would have guys that were players that were like, or pickup artists or whatever and they could go out and they had the skills to go and pick up multiple women. And sure, maybe they're not like seriously dating any woman, but it wasn't just as easy as swiping. Now you could just be a good looking guy and you could just swipe and you could do that without specifically coming up with a plan and developing the skills to be able to pull that off. So I think that's where it started to become that thing. And then women settled for that situation because they wanted. They started relying on dating apps and then they're like, okay, well I want the, the guy that I'm attracted to. So if he's not going to give me anything more than at least some of his time, then I'll just take some of his time.

Nicole [00:32:55]: Right.

John [00:32:56]: So.

Nicole [00:32:56]: Which is not good. Yeah, don't do that. But I'm glad that the generation now is shying away from that and I think they're Also shying away from dating apps because a lot of people are still trying to, like, now they're shifting to wanting to meet their partner in person. So I think it is kind of shifting away from that. I think people are over it. Like you said, they're over the, like on Instagram, like anyone could DM them and like have a conversation. And on dating apps that they can just swipe on whoever and go on as however many dates as they want. Like, they're, they're over that because they know what that produces, right? Because they've seen it from our generations and what has happened. So they're like, no, no, no, I don't want that. Which is good, right? Because I think the direction that they're going in, like trying to meet more like, look, we met on a dating app. So I'm not saying that dating apps are bad, but they are at this point harder to navigate because there is a lot of, I mean, there's catfishing people on there. There's like, you know, scams, there's just, there's people cheating on people. You know, there's a lot of mess on there. So like, I'm not saying that the dating apps don't work. Like, we wouldn't be here without the dating apps probably so. Cause like, how would we have come across each other? But at the same time, I think that organically meeting somebody and like kind of going back to the basics of how people originally used to meet their partners and not being wishy washy of like staying in a situationship with that person for a super long time, I think those are great things. I think like, being open and talking about the things is the right way to go and it saves everybody time. Like, I mean, the person, the guy who's trying to keep a situationship, like, he obviously doesn't care about his time because he's just taking his sweet time. But for women, we do care more about time. And so I think this is a good thing. I think it's good. I think too that women are also getting to a point where they're like, I would rather be alone than in that situation for six months with someone that's not committing to me. Whereas before they were maybe trying to convince the guy that is dating a bunch of women that if she stuck around or if she did all these girlfriendly things, that she's girlfriend material and he would just change his ways.

John [00:35:35]: Right?

Nicole [00:35:35]: But really the only way that you're going to do that is if you have the boundaries and you're like, look, I really like you. I enjoy spending time with you. I would like us to be officially boyfriend and girlfriend or a couple. Like, what are your thoughts? Well, you know.

John [00:35:50]: Yeah, and think of it this way. It's like, I mean, I mean, maybe this is a good way to put it. It's like a professional athlete, right? Everyone knows a professional athlete has a short career, right? Like, hardly any professional athlete is going to have a long career. It's like maybe like 10, 10 years for most, if even like five to 10 years. That's when they're in their prime, right. You know, they get drafted. Right. Whatever the sport is. A woman in her youth is kind of like that. She's like a professional athlete. Like, she needs to be like, okay, I have a limited amount of time to get. I'm getting a ton of offers right now because everybody wants some. I can't just be like, oh, I'll just like, I need a serious offer and take a contract and commit to this one, you know, because I have this opportunity at this point. Right. Because she's getting those offers where she knows that like that career is not going to last forever. And so she's putting more value on that time and her time. She doesn't want to just entertain like some guy that she's casually dating for two years and lose two years of that career of when she can get the best offered from the best men. You know what I'm saying? It's the same thing like a professional athlete, right? So she wants a long term contract.

Nicole [00:37:09]: Yeah.

John [00:37:10]: And that's the time to get it. And that's the smart thing to do is to realize that you've got, you know, like, you're not going to get as many opportunities later on. Because unlike men, like women's, you know, women's window is smaller for, for that, like. And so recognizing that, you have to like, not waste that time, if that makes sense.

Nicole [00:37:36]: No, I agree.

John [00:37:37]: Put it in a delicate way, but

Nicole [00:37:38]: I think too, maybe another way to view it too is that I feel like with women, most of the times from the very first date, they put all their eggs in one basket. Like, a lot of women that I know do not like to date multiple men at one time, even though I've told them to do that, like in the beginning.

John [00:37:56]: In the beginning? Yeah, for sure, in the beginning.

Nicole [00:37:58]: Because they go on one date and they like, I'm not dating anybody else, but I'm like, you don't even know. And like, they end up kind of like romanticizing this man Cause he's the only one they're focusing on. And so they end up kind of making him mentally into the man that she wants, right? And so by that point, then she's giving him more and more, and then he isn't really having to do anything, and she's kind of, like, blinded herself by what she's projecting onto him, right? And so then when it's like a few months in and they're still in that situationship, but she wants a relationship, maybe she hasn't said it right, but she thinks it's, like, too early or whatever. By the time that she has that conversation and he's like, oh, no. Like, I'm not that interested or whatever, she's completely confused because she's like, what do you. What do you mean? I was only, like, talking to you. Like, yeah, yeah. Like, I thought we had so much fun together. But it was like, it was part. She put all of her eggs in one basket part. She was, like, projecting what she's looking for onto that one person rather than dating multiple people. And so sorting out the things that you like and you don't like in those guys. And, like, what guy do you want to continue to go on a date with? What guy do you not. If you only have one guy, you're like, you either have to be like, I like him or I don't. Kind of like a few dates in.

John [00:39:23]: Right?

Nicole [00:39:23]: Whereas, you know, if you're dating multiple people in the beginning and you're going on a few dates here and there with different people, then it's easier to kind of weed it out. And you don't. You're not, like, projecting your fantasy onto, like, three different guys that you barely even know. Whereas if you're only dating one person in the very beginning, you're going to, like, put so much pressure onto that one person because you're like, you have to be the one, right? You have to be the man that I'm looking for. You know what I mean? Rather than actually looking for him.

John [00:39:55]: Unless that person is only dating one person, too, right? Which doesn't. That's the thing is, like, you don't know that, so you can't play it that way, you know, because.

Nicole [00:40:02]: But even then, I think it's not good for anybody to date, like, the first three dates.

John [00:40:08]: Yeah, It's.

Nicole [00:40:09]: You should not be dating only, like, one person. Like, unless you, like, can handle not doing what I just said.

John [00:40:16]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:40:17]: Then you can.

John [00:40:18]: Right?

Nicole [00:40:19]: But a lot of women, it's hard to not do that.

John [00:40:22]: Spread out the. The your hopes.

Nicole [00:40:27]: Because women like hyper focus. And we put. We tell ourselves stories.

John [00:40:32]: It's also the availability, right? Because a guy kind of has to be like, okay, like, you got to give a guy, a guy reasons to get in a committed relationship. One of them has to be to take you off the market, right? Because if you're just available all the time, if you're already acting like you're in a committed relationship, like you're not seeing any other guys, and you're giving this guy your time and sex, then he doesn't have anything to worry about. He's like, oh, she's just waiting around for me all the time. She just sits there and just waits. She just waits. And then when I call her up, she's there, right? It's like, but if he's like, oh, I really like this girl. She's the hottest one. She's the one that I vibe the most with. And then. But then he's like, but, oh, damn, I think she's seeing other guys because, you know, she doesn't respond to my messages for a long time. And then, like, she was busy on Thursday night. Then he's like, oh, shit. I guess I should probably, like, figure out where this thing is going. Like, see if I can get her. Like, hopefully she'll want to be my girlfriend. And then, you see what I'm saying, Then he's motivated to do it. Whereas why would he be motivated the other way? It doesn't make any sense.

Nicole [00:41:44]: No, it's true. That's very true.

John [00:41:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:47]: But ultimately, I think it's a good thing. And I think it's a good thing for marriage as well, too. Like I was talking about. Cause I think that if you're more open about talking about these things and more open about, like, what you want, like, telling somebody, like, I want to commit to you.

John [00:42:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:06]: And going for that, then I feel like it leads to better outcomes when you do propose or get married. And, you know, you do take it more seriously because you're already taking relationships more seriously. Like, we stopped taking relationships more seriously with the situationships.

John [00:42:23]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:24]: And so kind of bringing it back, I feel like also will help marriage be taken more seriously as well, too, because that's like the ultimate commitment, right? Like, marriage is the ultimate commitment. Like, that's the thing that you ask when, like, you do want to grow old with that person and, like, that you're gonna. You're making that decision. And, you know, we. That's why we started the whole podcast, because we Believe in it. And, like, we know how beautiful this level of commitment is. And I think it's beautiful that, like, people dating now are taking even the relationship commitment, the boyfriend girlfriend commitment, seriously.

John [00:43:03]: Yeah, well. Cause it's kind of like we said in one of the other episodes where recently we were talking about the. Their arranged marriages. It's like, it doesn't stop being so picky about who it is or what your options are, like, and realize that no matter who it is, I'm not saying that there's not better or worse people for you, but, like, you're still gonna have to. Majority of the journey is gonna be, like, 90% of it is gonna be in their relationship. The work that you're doing to build it. So, you know, so many people were spending so much time focusing on the 10% of, like, starting with the right person, which, again, I'm not saying that you should. Shouldn't spend any focus on that. I think if you have the ability to pick, then you should choose wisely. But at the same time, you have to recognize that it doesn't matter. You could start with someone who you think is perfect for you, and then when you get in a relationship, you can ruin the whole fucking thing. Or they could end up not actually wanting to grow and work on themselves or whatever happened. You know what I'm saying? Or you can start with someone who's. Who's not really the best match for you. But then you guys work together and you grow together and you become a wonderful couple. So I think that's why the sooner you get into that stage of doing that work, the better it is. And also, the more committed you are, realizing that you can't be like, oh, this person's not working out. We're just not a good fit. It's like, no, you didn't really do all the work in order to get, like, you know, most people, after some. Out of. After a couple years, you're gonna be like, we're not a good fit.

Nicole [00:44:43]: Right.

John [00:44:43]: Because you haven't done the work, you know, well.

Nicole [00:44:45]: And everybody changes in different ways. And it's like, you have to realize that you have to go through that together. Like, that's part of a commitment. Even when you're a boyfriend and girlfriend. Like. Like, people date for a long time. They date from, like, high school until they're out of college. Like, your life changes a lot in that time frame.

John [00:45:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:05]: And so, like, you know, you have to realize that you're gonna go through changes and you have to, like, all relationships Require work. Yeah, but it's not. It doesn't mean that that isn't the relationship for you. Because I think a lot of people. And also with the dating apps, it's like the grass is greener on the other side. They're like, oh, well, it might be easier with someone else. Like, I wouldn't have to deal with this problem with someone else. And that, like, pushes them towards finding someone else.

John [00:45:35]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:45:36]: But what a lot of people don't realize is that a lot of the things that make people go, oh, well, I wouldn't deal with this with someone else. That doesn't excuse, like, abuse or things like that.

John [00:45:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:48]: Like, those are obviously an issue, and you should not be in a relationship like that. But, like, minor inconveniences or, like, going through a hard time or, like, facing things in your life that you haven't had to face and your partner's helping you go through them, like, that is normal. And, like, that is going to happen. Like, things are going to change. You're gonna have to face them. But if you have a partner that wants to help you with those things and face those things with you.

John [00:46:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:22]: That is so important to a relationship, and that is, like, one of the core things, like you said, that you should be looking for. Like, you should be looking for someone that, like, loving them is easy, but also, you know that they're going to do the hard work with you.

John [00:46:42]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:46:42]: Like, they're not afraid of the hard work. You're not afraid of the hard work. You're going to make this work because that's what it takes for all relationships, for being boyfriend and girlfriend and going into being married. It's not sunshine and rainbows that we have, as society convinced ourselves that, oh, well, I'll just find somebody that does all the things that I want that doesn't exist. And I was one of the people who thought that before, you know, And I mean, like, when I met you, it did feel easy, and I did feel like we had a good connection. But also, you have helped me face some of the, like, darkest parts of myself that I couldn't even have faced on my own. And it's been hard, but I wouldn't want it any other way. Like, I wouldn't want the. Like, you to never do that and then our relationship just be easy because you. You aren't shining the light on things

John [00:47:38]: that I need to work on, not letting you become the best version of yourself.

Nicole [00:47:42]: Right.

John [00:47:43]: Possible, you know? Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:45]: Right.

John [00:47:45]: I agree.

Nicole [00:47:46]: So, like, I'm glad that they're getting rid of the grass is greener on the other side. Or like, this isn't how it's supposed to be. Like, yes, if you're going through something like abusive or things like that. Yes. That's not how it's supposed to be. However, if you're having, like just a hard time relating to each other, things like that, it's probably some other sort of issue. And you should look at some of our other videos because it's probably communication or resentment or who knows? And those things you can work through. And so again, like, not to shy away from the situationship thing, but I think it goes into that by now people are being like, look, I want to be single, or like, let's do this or let's don't exactly, you know, like not being, not shying away from that, because that's also part of doing the hard work. Like, it's just the very beginning.

John [00:48:34]: Yeah. Because you can't start doing any of that if you're not actually in a real relationship. If it's not defined, then you can't actually build anything. So you're just wasting time, essentially. Right? I mean, sure, maybe you're having a little bit of fun, but you're essentially wasting time, especially on the woman's side where she might have a more limited amount of time, where she's got the best options that are available to her and so she's got to make some choices. So, yeah, so I think it's. Overall, it's a good thing and it's inevitable. I mean, the pendulum always swings one way and then, and then the other. So, you know, we were in a very promiscuous, like, everything goes phase for a while and now it's swinging back to more conservative. Like, okay, there's a reason why, like, prudence and being a little bit more conservative in sexuality makes sense. You know, people are starting to see that because when you see the other extreme and you're like, well, shit, I don't even have any friends. I don't even actually have any relationships. I don't even know, like, what is the fucking point? Then it's like, okay, well, I'd rather follow some rules, right? And like, have other people follow some of these rules too. And then there's some stability, there's some actual depth to things. It's not just everyone has as much freedom as they, you know, so, like. Cause there's always a trade off. Like you've got freedom and you got security, and those things are at ends, at different ends. And when you want more freedom, you're going to lose security to do it. And you want more security, you're going to have to give up some freedoms in order to get security. That's how it works.

Nicole [00:50:14]: No, you're not wrong. Yeah, that's a good way, I think, to round it out. But we did get jinxed. But it's my fault. I. Come on. Here we do a whole episode about me being avoidant, and then I still am avoidant. Way to go, Nicole.

John [00:50:33]: Hey.

Nicole [00:50:35]: But no, I mean, do you want to. I mean, I obviously messed up. Like, I hurt your feelings by something that I said, and then I was not making you feel heard because I was already, like, kind of like, being like, this is ruined in my head. Like, I ruined it, you know? Like, I don't. He doesn't even want to be with me. And, like, rather than listening to the things that you were saying, I mean, like, I was listening to what you were saying.

John [00:51:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:12]: But that's what I was translating as well, too. And so it just felt, like, hopeless and, like, I had already ruined it. And like, that. How can I even try? Because I'm. What if I mess up and then he's just going to be even more upset. Like, I was doing all this in my head, and I didn't realize that that also is. Like, I did realize that avoidant people do that because I've been talking about it, but I didn't realize that how deeply. Yeah, I. That had been ingrained in me and that I was still doing it.

John [00:51:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:48]: Like, I didn't realize that the, like, convincing myself of something different was me still doing that avoidant behavior of, like, making it worse than it actually is and, like, convincing myself that, like, it's already messed up. And, like, why am I gonna try? Cause that'll make him more upset if I mess up. Because I told him I'm not gonna mess up. And how can I promise that? Cause I'm a human and I'm gonna mess up. Like, all of that is going in my head. And so I'm like, so it's a. Like, so I already ruined it. You know what I mean? Like, that's ultimately what, like, my brain came to. And then I was just like. And I also, like, that was happening. But then after really listening to you.

John [00:52:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:34]: I realized that I was also doing that with you as a person.

John [00:52:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:39]: Like, I was like, well, he's. In my mind. I'm like, well, he's going to do something to hurt me or he's going to, like, betray me in some way. And I was treating you as if, like, you were the type of person that had already done that.

John [00:52:54]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:55]: Because my brain convinced myself of that. And because, honestly, I had already told you that I, like, never really felt like I could trust anybody.

John [00:53:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:07]: And that includes myself. And most avoidant people.

John [00:53:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:10]: They don't trust themselves either because they've never felt like they could really trust anybody to not, like, let them down or hurt them or whatever. But I didn't realize that I was truly viewing you from that. Like, it felt like I was protecting myself from if you would do that to me.

John [00:53:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:29]: But it was just already treating you like you had done that, and that's not fair.

John [00:53:35]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:53:37]: And so I'm sorry for doing that. And look, everybody makes mistakes. I mean, like I said, we did a whole episode of avoidant behaviors, and I was still doing them. Like, I had worked through a lot of the surface level avoidant behaviors, but it does run really deep and deeper than most people think. And so, like, without you talking to me, like, I still. I mean, I still was perpetuating that in our relationship, even though I was trying not to. Like, when I told you I trusted you, I meant that, but it wasn't true because I was not viewing you how you actually are and how you acted. I was viewing you from my fear.

John [00:54:24]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:25]: And so even though, like, mentally, I did feel like I was trusting you, and I do trust you.

John [00:54:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:31]: It's like, I wasn't actually.

John [00:54:35]: Yeah, that's a good way to describe it. Yeah, I think that's. That's accurate.

Nicole [00:54:39]: And I don't think you can realize this unless you realize, like, the stories that you're telling yourself.

John [00:54:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:46]: Or, like, the way you're perpetuating your past, like, hurt and trust issues or whatever it is.

John [00:54:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:54]: Because you're probably painting the person that you're dealing with in a way that is not even actually true. It's coming from your hurt and your trauma and your past or whatever you want to call it. And it's typically a habit. Like, it's a habitual behavior. It's a habitual thought pattern.

John [00:55:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:14]: Like, you might not even realize you're doing it. And you might think it's logical. You might think you're protecting yourself, but you're not. Like, not really. You're just hurting the person that is showing up for you for the first time in your life.

John [00:55:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:29]: It seems like. And you're just. You're making them into the Villain already. So.

John [00:55:36]: Yeah. And it's hard because it's like I was like, there's something off. Like. Like you don't even know because I don't know what's going on in your head. But I. I suspect that that's what's happening. And it's like. But then I'm like, I know. Like I know myself because I show up every day, I wake up early, I do all the stuff that I'm supposed to do. Like I'm there. Like I know what kind of person I am. I'm like, I don't feel like the way that I'm like just the slight way that the words are coming across sometimes, like that it's lining up with who I'm showing up as every day. But it makes sense now and I get it. But. But I think it's good. I mean, there's always gonna be things to work through, and we work through them together. And I'm proud of you and I'm proud of the realizations that you had. And. Yeah. And it was meaningful. Very meaningful to me to be able to see you with the mask off, you know, like, really vulnerable, which I feel like more and more of it's just disappearing. Which is good. Cause that's. That's what I want, you know, Because I want you. And. Yeah. And so I felt truly, truly heard. And I understand also. I think that's the thing is, like, I understand why. Right. It's not malicious. It's not like, you know, it's just. It's a block that you couldn't see. And then we work through it and you're able to see it. And I don't have that block anymore. And.

Nicole [00:57:10]: Well, and I just want to say too, like, people are probably thinking I said something nasty to you. Our things are very. If you heard how this all started, you would be like.

John [00:57:21]: You would think, like, you'd be like,

Nicole [00:57:23]: you guys had a disagreement or like, this is your guys fight. It started from this.

John [00:57:28]: It was from chocolate. It was from. We made Dubai chocolate bars from a kit, right. That I had bought. And then we were watching the movie the Junior Arnold Schwarzenegger. Because Nicole is like, her great science invention was having a man have a baby. I'm like, there's actually a movie where a man has a baby.

Nicole [00:57:51]: And I had never seen it.

John [00:57:53]: Yeah, she'd never seen it. I was like, wow, that's weird. So we had to watch that. But in the instructions on the thing, it said after you're done with it, to put The Dubai chocolate in the refrigerator. Right. And. And, you know, chocolate and cheese in the refrigerator. Like, it's room temperature. It's best. Right. So anyway, I think you said something about, like, that you put it in the refrigerator. And I was like, oh, yeah, I don't think that we should refrigerate it. Like, there's no. None of the ingredients need to be refrigerated. And then. And then you said, well, the instructions say that it needs to be put in the refrigerator. And then I forget exactly what the exact sequence was. But then I think I said, well, yeah, I don't think we'll need to put it in the refrigerator or something like that because none of the ingredients are refrigerated ingredients, so it should be fine. But I got it kind of like. And then I think you kept on repeating the same thing or kept on saying, no, well, let's refrigerate it. And then I was like, okay, let's pause the movie, because I was really upset by the fact that I had said this. And then it was like, not being taken as, like.

Nicole [00:59:09]: Like, I didn't trust you.

John [00:59:10]: Yeah, they didn't trust me. Yeah, exactly. And it's like. And even if it's like, who cares about chocolate bars? Who cares? It's like, this is something that, like, is deeply important to me. And it might seem silly, like, from the outside. That's why I'm trying to describe it in a way. And it is from the outside, but it just. It.

Nicole [00:59:27]: It was the cumulation of all the other things. And then it was like a deeper. Something small that set it off.

John [00:59:33]: Yeah, it's a deeper thing that was like, not about the chocolate or anything. It was like, you know, it's like for. For me too. I think for both of us in our relationship, when there's anything that's. That we find that's off, you know, then we gotta fix it. We gotta get to the bottom of it and figure. And sometimes when it looks like, oh, it's just like, what is that little thing? And then you dig a little deeper and it's like this huge thing underneath and you're like, oh, okay, then we definitely gotta fix that. So that was one of those kind of issues where it was just like. It pointed to something that was a deeper issue that we needed to address.

Nicole [01:00:13]: Yeah, no, definitely. And I'm glad that you told me about it because, like, even during the initial part of our conversation, I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm like, I don't. What did I do? I didn't. Like, you're, like, you're disrespectful. I'm like, I just said it goes in the fridge. Like, I didn't even really get it, you know? And then like you said, when we dug deeper, I was like, oh, like, this is. And I probably wouldn't have really been able to uncover that without your help.

John [01:00:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:46]: Because if I don't have someone to talk to about this, how am I going to uncover that? I'm, like, painting you in this light.

John [01:00:52]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:00:53]: With my own thoughts. You know what I mean?

John [01:00:56]: And it was. And it was weird because, like, the way that you were answering about what I was saying was indicating a bigger issue than what I even thought it was. You know what I'm saying? And that's where I started to get really, like, worried. I'm like, okay. Like, this really is something because. Because it came down to the perception of, like, how you're viewing me, because I kept on. I'm like, you don't really see me. Like, you don't really know who I am. Like, really, really know who I am. And it. And it. And it was true to a degree because you had, like.

Nicole [01:01:27]: I mean, I painted a picture of you.

John [01:01:29]: Yeah. You thought I was as awesome, great guy. Like, it's not like you had a negative, like a holy negative, but you also had this. This veneer that was on top of who I was, that was sort of blocking out the real me in certain areas. Right. And that. And that made me feel like I was not seen or understood. And. But. But now I do. So, yeah. Yeah. I'm glad, my love. All right.

Nicole [01:02:00]: Whoever thinks that it's bad that we sit so far away from each other is probably, like, see, they can't even hug each other or something right now.

John [01:02:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:10]: But no, it's true. And I appreciate you so much for having the patience to go through this with me. And besides you not feeling seen, the other issue was that, like, I was already acting like it was ruined because I made a mistake in that I didn't want to continue because I was afraid to make another mistake and that it would just blow it up anyway. So I was already, like, I was making the situation worse than it actually was in reality. Which, you know, I'm just putting all this out here in case other people recognize, because, again, you know, with the avoidant episode, we did, like, people have to be so aware that they're avoidant. You have to really try to understand how that's like, leaking into your life.

John [01:03:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:02]: Because a lot of people don't. I didn't. Not to this level.

John [01:03:07]: Even when I think one thing that's maybe just, like a general lesson that everyone could take from. From this, which is super important, which is that whenever you do something, quote wrong, you're either gonna do one of two things. You're either gonna internalize and somewhat beat yourself up and then play some kind of scenario in your head about, like, how. Like, you're either gonna look at how does this affect you, or what does it say about you, and it's a, you focused, or you're gonna be focused on the other person that you did something wrong or hurt, and you can't do both. And so, like, it's a seemingly innocent mistake to be like, oh, to beat yourself up and to focus on yourself. But then you're actually not helping the person. Like, and it doesn't help you either, because then you spiral. Then you say, oh, I ruined things, and stuff like that. But if you shift your focus and be like, okay, how can I just actually provide aid to the person, the other person, then all that other stuff doesn't. It doesn't happen, like, the internal monologue and all that stuff. And. And the problem. But. But we all tend to do this to, like, I. I've caught myself in that same situation. What do we call it? We call it shame. That's what it is. And shame, it doesn't help the other person, and it hurts us even more. And so it's like, we got to not get into that shame. Yeah. Otherwise. Yeah. Because then it's like, it's not because. Because, you know, as you're going through that and we're having that discussion, I'm like, okay, but all this stuff that you're saying, it only hurts me more. It doesn't help me. It's like, if you're like, I've ruined everything and I should just, like, give up or whatever. Like, again, you weren't saying those exact words. But if that's kind of the set, I'm like, well, okay, but that doesn't. Like, that's not fixing anything. That's just making things worse.

Nicole [01:05:06]: But I think we think that if we beat ourselves up, then the other person doesn't have to exactly.

John [01:05:11]: Where. Where reality, like, correct.

Nicole [01:05:13]: Yeah, it's the. Like you said, when reality is, the other person just wants to feel like you care. To fix the problem. Like, to care about them.

John [01:05:21]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:05:22]: So, yeah.

John [01:05:23]: All right, well, that's it for this week.

Nicole [01:05:25]: We'll hopefully we won't have any more segments, knock on wood. If they are for the good.

John [01:05:32]: Yeah. If there's stuff that needs to be worked on, then, then, then hopefully we do have the opportunity to work on them. But, you know, but I mean, I agree about that.

Nicole [01:05:42]: But it's like, you know, just space them out. Don't, like, get them back to back.

John [01:05:47]: Yeah. All right. You can check us out on the web@betterthanperfectpod.com you can on the web on the World Wide Web if you want. Shoot us an email at Better than perfect podcast gmail.com and like.

Nicole [01:06:04]: And subscribe. Share.

John [01:06:05]: Yeah. We'll see you next week.

Nicole [01:06:07]: Bye.