Nicole: And then you called me and said, "I think we need to break up," then I had to go to work. You always drop bombs on me before work.

John: Yeah, I call you 10 minutes later and I'm like, "No, I can't not be with you. What you went through is hard. I went through my own crap, but mine was self-imposed. Yours was... you did swipe on the guy with a douchy profile."

Nicole: Yeah, and I told you, "Hey, you look nice, but you have a douchy profile." Beyond the perfect, we discovered through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect, we stay through every fault we find. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we show you how two imperfect people helping each other become better equals one better than perfect relationship. There you go. I think I added an extra "better" in there though.

John: Helping each other, you can always add some extra betters. That's not bad to add some.

Nicole: Perfect. It's better than better. Better than butter. Can't believe it's not better than butter. I mean, oh alright. So, what is our topic for today? Or is there any current events we need to be caught up on? Something to derail the entire episode?

John: I mean, you've been fighting the people in the comments about the child wearing, but like, people think that when I said that children shouldn't be responsible for their parents' problems, they're like, "No, children should be responsible for the things they do." I'm like, that's not what I said at all. But okay, yes, I agree with you. Kids should be responsible for their actions, not their parents' actions.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, I think the beginning of the clip, you said children shouldn't be responsible for anything, but I think in the actual episode, like, it segued. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't feel like it was clear. The context, maybe I did say that, like in just that context, but I think it made more sense in the full episode. So, go watch the full episode or watch the full clip because even if I said children shouldn't be responsible for everything in the first 5 seconds, you should watch the rest of the 45 seconds of the clip to see what I'm saying, not just comment immediately like, "Oh, I've seen two seconds of the clip." But that's how it is. I mean, I have plenty of videos on YouTube where people, where the title is the opposite of what the video is about because I'm making a controversial title, and then people will just come in. In fact, some people have the gall to comment below and say, "Haven't watched the video yet, but this is what I think about this." Like, okay.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely the world has definitely turned into that because I think there's some meme or something where someone says like, "Oh, today I'm making chocolate chip pancakes instead of banana pancakes," and people are like, "So you don't like bananas?" Like, they just add their own thing in there, like they just add all this stuff to it that no one ever said at all. So, that's a very real reality on the internet, unfortunately. But yeah. Well, that was a little something before the topic, which is, which is today, the topic will be, should you take them back, or do you, should you take someone back, and how so, if you do, you know, you got to make him beg on the floor, you know, got to make him do some penance, whip him. I don't know.

John: That's complicated.

Nicole: Yeah, so should you ever take someone back?

John: Uh, for the majority of the situation, no, you should not take somebody back, and you should really only take somebody back in a very rare instance.

Nicole: Right, like I feel like ours was a very rare instance.

John: Yeah, yeah. I feel like we kind of have to go into that because I mean, I would have told somebody before, don't take anybody back at all.

Nicole: Yeah, I would say the same thing.

John: It's done, it's done. You know, that was the way that the cards were laid out, and if it was meant for you, the cards wouldn't have laid themselves out that way. And then you came along and changed everything.

Nicole: Well, so I guess to start, there was a time in John and my relationship where we did, I guess technically break up, twice.

John: Twice we technically did, and I broke up with you both of those times. Sorry to be the first person to ever break up with you.

Nicole: No, you weren't, but I was like, every time that happened, those two times, I was like, "Look, okay, that's fine. But I don't want any contact with you. Then this is going to be done, done. I'm not doing the like, you're breaking up with me, but you want to keep me around sort of thing." So, when you called me the first time you did it, I was like, "Okay, done." And then I think, well, I didn't call you, I came in, or well, I talked in person.

John: Well, you tried to break up with me when you talked to me in person, and then I was like, "Why can't we figure this out? Like, I want to be with you. Like, I know you're going through some stuff, but like, we can do it together." And yeah, I'm sure I somewhat convinced you to kind of stay. It was a very complicated situation because you, the whole time, were like, "I love you. I'm not leaving you." It was this circumstance that you were doing. I think you did feel a little confused about what you were going through, but at the same time, you never made me feel like you didn't want to be with me, if that makes sense. And I mean, you could speak on your part, which you should because I don't want to sit here putting words in your mouth, but I just have what we've already discussed and how we got here at all. But I think you should talk about those instances.

John: Yeah, we could give more context to the whole story. So, as we've talked about on the podcast before, you know, when we met, I was already married at the time.

Nicole: And you didn't know that, of course.

John: No. So, but if you want the full details, you can, was it episode four, the cheating episode?

Nicole: I think so.

John: So, yeah, so that created an obviously complicated situation when we did end up getting together, and then I had gone... Well, we didn't like officially get together until you told me.

Nicole: Right, that. And then the only reason we moved forward is because you told me that you were actively making steps to dissolve that, even though you had already stepped out of the marriage and like what you thought, emotionally detached from that somewhat. Like, it was not... You realized that it was not what you thought it was, or like it all hit you of what was actually happening in that moment.

John: Yeah, but I'm just saying that, like, because people don't know the full story, that when you told me this, I did, I only progressed with you because you told me that you were getting a divorce and things like that. So, I wouldn't have moved forward if you were like, "I'm still trying to figure it out," you know? And like, you seemed like you knew what you wanted to do.

Nicole: Right.

John: And I don't think you ever didn't know what you wanted to do, but it's like everything caught up with you.

Nicole: Right, exactly, after a while.

John: Basically, yes. You know, I told you that I was, and I did, and I moved to Florida and started the divorce process. What ended up happening, where the breakup occurred, was we were together for, I think it was like three months at that time. Officially, no, I think it was six or... okay, yeah, you're right, yeah, somewhere around there. Then, I started to have a midlife crisis of sorts. What happened to me, I think psychologically, was just a lot of stuff that had because I had repressed a ton of things. I mean, I was going out and doing stuff that I wasn't supposed to do, that I felt bad about, so I had all this shame and guilt. Then, I couldn't really share some of that with you because I was still in this really weird place, and it just kind of all hit me at once. Everything was smooth; we were doing great, and then all of a sudden, like one day, I woke up and I was just literally... You also went to therapy because you were really depressed, and it was a... You could tell that you were going through a dark time, and there was like a switch that went off in you, and you weren't like the person that you normally had been. I felt like I didn't deserve you, and then when I felt bad, I felt like I was putting you through all of this stuff that you didn't need to go through, and that wasn't right for me to do.

Nicole: So, I finally came to the conclusion that I have to get this stuff sorted out, figure myself out, and so I have no right to leave you hanging or to drag you through this. Part of me, too, was... I mean, there's a lot of things going on in my head, some of them were correct, some of them weren't correct, but just to where I was thinking at that time. Part of me was thinking like I don't want to ruin this because how I am right now, being so depressed, you may be thinking that I'm depressed because of you, or that I'm not... that you don't make me happy. All these things, like, I don't want to ruin the best thing that I've ever had, so it'd be better if I just cut it and figured my stuff out rather than having ruined it. That's at least where I was at. So, that's why, right, I came to your apartment. You didn't think about that; it would... you already had gone too deep, but yeah.

John: Yeah, and I had never ever fought for somebody like... I'm definitely the type of person, I'm like, if you don't want to be with me, I don't want to be with you, right. But I could tell that that wasn't the case, and that also you needed somebody that would be there for you in the hard times because I felt like you never really had that. But it just still was like just eating you alive. I could tell that there's nothing I could really do to help you, even...

Nicole: Yeah, but I did want us to try to stay together and work through this because I thought that we could. Like you said, there was still like that love there, and I could tell that you cared about me, and that we were like meant to be together. But also, at the same time, you were going through something really difficult that you hadn't processed a lot of emotions for a very, very long time, and they were all kind of coming up at the same time. So, you agreed to stay in this situation, but you were going to go back to California.

John: Yeah, and then I went back, and then I called you, and then I was like, "I think we need to break up." And you were like, "Okay, like yeah, but I'm not... I don't want to be in contact with you, you know. I don't want any of that stuff." Like, I appreciated the time that we had, but I'm not going to keep this stuff going, like, or still talk to you. So then we hung up. Then I had to go to work.

Nicole: Yeah, I always drop bombs on you before work. I had to go to work. So, I'm on my way to work, John calls me, this is maybe like 10 minutes later, and he's like, "No, I can't not be with you." And then he came, and I was like, I don't know, like at first, I was like, "What's going on?" And then you talked to me through it, and I realized you did want to be with me. So then you came back.

John: Yeah, and then, you know, everything was kind of going along like normal again. And then one time in December, we go to dinner, and then we come back home, and you're like, "I have to leave." And I'm like, "Not again." And then again, I'm like, "Okay, that's fine, but I'm not doing this." Like, "I'll put your stuff in the other room. You can come get it whenever." And I mean, I'd sent you like a text or something, like, I appreciated the things that you taught me while we were together, and I learned a lot, and I learned how to be a better person. So, I told you that, and then you were like, "Let's be together again." So, like, it never lasted very long at all, but we did technically break up twice.

John: Yeah, and I mean, I couldn't follow through. Well, it's weird too because, like, even in the worst mental state that I've been, and this is what I tell guys, right, I tell guys, and this is true, divorce will be the worst thing that you'll ever go through in life. Even if you don't like the person you're with, it doesn't matter. If you've been with someone for a long time, or your life is built around, you know, a family, a marriage, divorce will be worse than death. It will be the worst thing that you'll ever experience because it is such a rift in your psyche. Like, it changes; it's such a rapid change. Change is hard for people to handle, and then there's a lot of stuff that you're going to have to process that you haven't processed. So, even in the worst condition that I've ever been in my life, which was then, that was the worst I've ever been in my life, I knew that you were still the best thing. So, it was like, there were points where I was so depressed that nothing in life felt like it had any meaning, or that there was any hope in life. And that's how people, when they're really in depression, feel like there's no hope. But there was still this part of me that was like, "Yeah, yeah, but if this ever changes, even though it seems like there's no way this is ever going to change, and you just feel like life is pointless, you will definitely be kicking yourself if you gave up the best thing that you ever had, you know what I mean?" So, even when I was like, "I don't deserve it," but then it also created a conflict. Like, I was torn because I'm like, "Well, yeah, but that's also kind of selfish because you can't do this to Nicole." And, you know, so it was tough, but I never didn't want to be with you.

Nicole: Well, that's the only reason I took you back all those times, is because you didn't just say the things.

John: Showed me the things, yeah, yeah. So that was the difference, and plus, I knew, like, our connection. I knew how you felt about me, you know? In those instances, like, it was confusing, and it did take me and you a lot to work through those things too, even after they happened. But you proved to me, yeah, that our love was real and that you made a mistake, but you knew like that we were supposed to be together. And you know, those sort of things. And don't get me wrong, like, you didn't go off and like hook up with a bunch of people when we broke up, or like, you know, you did do some crazy things. But again, you had lost your mind a little bit, but it wasn't anything that genuinely I was like, he, you know, destroyed our relationship beyond repair, yeah. So, you know, this is the only circumstance I would say to take somebody back. But I think if I'm giving advice to people, yeah, unless you're in a situation like this where you know, and even if it doesn't make sense to people, 'cause I'm sure plenty of people knew when we broke up, knew were like, what the hell going. But I also told one of my friends the other day that it kind of helped. I don't wish it had happened, you know, but it did. But it helped both of us realize that we could go through something really hard, especially I know probably for you because you said it's the like lowest worst you've ever been, yeah. And that we could get through it even though it was messy and whatever because like I said, like even though we broke up, it was not for very long, yeah, yeah, at all. Because it just like we knew that we needed to be together with each other. But for most people, I would say that's not the case. It's normally like a toxic, like breaking up back and forth, and in that case, you should just let him go, don't take them back, yeah. But if you know you have a connection and there's like other circumstances and there are things that you can forgive, like if you're the person being broken up with, you can forgive it and move on, or work through it, or like, you know, that you and this person can work through the things that have happened, and it's worth it to you, I'd say take somebody back. But it has to be that like extraordinary circumstance, yeah.

Nicole: It has, yeah, exactly. And you'll know if it is, like you'll know because you'll be operating in ways that are different, you know? Like even though, like I said, when I was like, look, if we're done, we're done. That's how I normally would have operated. I still fought for you, and I still, like when you came back, I still gave you the opportunity to be heard. I wasn't like, you like, no, I'm done. Like, I mean, I was done, but you know, I still also heard you out because I cared about you, and that I could be swayed, yeah. And, and I think, well, and also, I mean, like what you said about our story, yeah, what do we got, an hour? You know, it's like we did this in 15 minutes. You know, we don't have eight hours to explain the entire story, or you know what I mean, like hearing the bits and pieces of it, people might be confused, or they like, that's crazy. Or, I mean, if you just hear the bits and pieces, the highlights, it's like, you know, oh well, John was married, and then this, and then this happened, this happened. Like, you know, why would she, you know, even deal with this at all? And I get it, ask myself that sometimes when I look at it, uh, subjectively. But, but there's a lot to our story. Like, there's so many details and so many things. We're just kind of given the quick version of it. But, but that's what I'm trying to say though, if you like know, and I feel like even from doing this podcast, and especially people who have interacted with you and I in person, like you can just tell we go together. And like I felt that, like it's that when you know, you know, yeah, feeling. And like I said, you had always like said what or like said you're going to do something and done it, yeah, and showed that to me. I don't think we could have got back together if you didn't do that, and if you didn't, if you were all words or yeah, things were still kind of similar. Like, I mean, we had to both deal with a lot in these instances, like yeah. And there were other circumstances too, like one of, I guess I didn't even mention this part, is that I had left San Diego to go to Florida. I'd done that pretty quickly, and I'd left my daughter behind, Sophia. And in my crazy head, I thought, oh well, we'll just visit every month, you know, or so maybe at first. Well, I'll get established, and then she'll just come and fly out here, and then I'll go and fly out there. And it was like, okay, Florida, San Diego, she's going to school. Which you did do, you flew out for her birthday, and then she came to visit us, and then, you know, with other plans too.

John: But yeah, I knew from the beginning though, that 'cause when you told me that you had a kid, I was like, I don't want anything to come between that, you know? Like your divorce, that's like your story with like your past and things like that, but I didn't want anything to, you know, affect her. So when you left the second time, it was more about her, and I understood that, yeah, better. I still felt like blindsided by you, like us going to dinner, and then you being like, I'm leaving, you know? And then again, you broke up with me 'cause you wanted to like figure, like to deal with your emotions without them affecting me. But really, we were already too entwined for like, yeah, it to not affect me. The thing that could have worked if you did that in the very beginning, maybe, you know. But, but I didn't have those emotions in the very beginning. That was, that was the weird thing, was that I was, and, and like I said, with, with the Sophia thing, I mean, it forced me to, to face the reality of the, of the situation. And I think when I left, part of what I was thinking was, I was like, oh, rather than me being there, or trying to do some kind of split, she'll be better off just with her mom, and maybe she'll, her mom will take better care of her now, and like, you know, she takes better care of her than I do, and anyway, and, and like, it'll be better if I just visit her, she visits me. And, you know, that's what I was thinking at the time. That's not correct, right. But that's what I was thinking at the time, and hadn't process a lot of things. And then I started to see how she was not better off, and then I started to panic. And that's where, and but that's when I knew that I needed to be in San Diego. And then, you know, and then yeah, and then, you know, you, you came out, and at first, I was thinking I need to just be there by myself, and that wasn't.

Nicole: Which you did do for like a month.

John: Which I did, which I think that actually did help because I think it was, it was good for me to just clear my head, to just figure it out, to make sure that, you know, I just have that time to be able to do.

John: Yeah, but there's a lot. And I think the big thing I've been trying to get to is that in our relationship, even though we had broken up, it was never about our relationship. That wasn't the reason we were breaking up. It was these other circumstances, these other things, but it was never, "We got into a fight and we broke up," never, right? Or, you know, "We're upset at each other," or something, and then we break up, or "This isn't working out." That was never the case. And I think that's really the difference. If you're in that kind of situation where it's not about the relationship, and for some reason, you have to go to college or whatever it ends up being, then getting back together is okay because your circumstances have changed. It's not like you had an issue in the relationship. Because I think most of the advice, at least when I would tell someone the same thing, is, "Hey, don't take someone back or don't get back together with your ex," would be based around, "It didn't work the first time because of the relationship, so it's not going to work now, and you're just going to get back into the same patterns that you were before." And if this person who's now coming back to you, if they're coming back and they're like, "Oh, I'm going to do all these things that you wanted me to do now. I'm going to treat you right now. I'm going to," and they have the list, and they know all the things, that's tempting because then you're like, "Oh wow, they're going to do all the things I want."

Nicole: No, see, I'd be like, "So you knew the whole time and you didn't do it?" That would make me more pissed. You were like, "It's tempting." That would not be tempting at all to me. That was just my setup to say what you stole my thunder. Sorry, but like, that would be the knife in the coffin for me. Like, "So you knew this whole time, right? And the second you lost it is when you're going to treat me better?" And to be honest, I would expect it to go right back to where it was. I would not expect a change because if you knew that whole time and you chose not to do it, you really expect me to believe that you're going to now do it consistently, right? And not revert back? And why wouldn't you have if you already knew it, you know what I mean? Like, that's the thing, is that at that point, it's the same thing. I mean, it's a little bit of a different thing, but I always talk about like firing people, right? If I fire someone, I don't give them a warning. I don't tell them what they need to change. I point out mistakes that they've made or things, you know, and then once I've made the decision, they're fired. There's no excuses. There's no saying, "Oh, I'll fix this or change this," because I know they won't. Because I know that if I've already set the expectations and the standards and they're not doing them now, if I threaten them and say, "I'm going to fire you if you don't do this," they will fix it temporarily and then they'll go right back to it because they already knew it. They weren't performing. They weren't living up to it. I've already made the decision. So it's the same type of thing. It's like, look, if you're in a relationship with someone and they understand what your needs are, what things that they need to change or fix, you know, the things that are problems in the relationship that are their cause, and they're not willing to do those things, then if you leave them and then now they're willing to do it, it's going to be a temporary change.

John: True, true. So, I have a question for you. If the tables were turned and I was doing the stuff, would you have taken me back both times?

Nicole: Yeah, because it wasn't an issue in our relationship. But do you think it'd be hard, especially, think it'd be harder on a man's ego?

John: What you went through is hard, extremely hard. I couldn't even imagine like all the stuff.

Nicole: So, well, I went through my own crap, but mine was self-imposed. Yours wasn't.

John: Oh, I mean, well, you did get on Tinder.

Nicole: Then I was single. I could be on Tinder, sir.

John: But you never know what you're going to get. You shouldn't have been doing that.

Nicole: You did swipe on the guy with a douchy profile.

John: Yeah, and I told you, "Hey, you look nice, but you have a douchy profile." I fully expected it to end right there.

Nicole: But you were like, "Oh hey," then you changed your profile, and I was like, "Okay, he changed the profile." Yeah, so, but, yeah, I mean, look, you can't put this on me.

John: No, no, I'm just teasing you. No, obviously, you didn't deserve any of that. But, yeah, I agree with what you said. If it's like something in your relationship where you guys have broken up because you guys aren't getting along, you're not compatible, something like that, those problems aren't going to really fix themselves that much. But if it is something outside of that that's happening, then if you guys break up and they come back along and they seem to have got their stuff together now and they're ready to be in a relationship, that is your choice. I'm not saying even do it, right? I'm just saying if you feel if it's worth it, right? If it feels worth it to you, if it feels like the right decision to you because that was the thing that every time that you and I went through this, I was never like, "Oh, I shouldn't be with him again," because I always tell how you felt about me, right? And I trusted you that if you worked on what you had going on, that you meant that, and that things would be different moving forward. And you have always been that way.

Nicole: Yeah, so I had confidence that we could figure this out, even though I had some effects from that happening, even though that's what you tried to avoid by breaking up with me. Like, we worked through those together, and, you know, it was still hard because I still think you did have a little bit of shame and guilt, you know, but I think it turned from shame and guilt to your past to shame and guilt of what you did to me, right? You know, because of that, then it was like, "I know, and then I was like, 'Oh, I screwed up here, and now I screwed up the best thing, and now I screwed up everything in everybody's lives. Good job, John.' And now you got to tell it on a podcast for the rest of your damn life. Everyone's going to judge you and be like, 'This is the cheating guy that gives people relationship advice. [__] this guy,' you know, that's what it's going to be."

Nicole: Here's the thing, they might be thinking that, but at the same time, like, I feel like I really value making the right decision, and people need to trust if I am still choosing to be with you, it's because you're the most amazing man despite the mistakes that you've made.

John: This is genuinely how I feel, and nobody's perfect. Like, have we been through a mess? Yes, but I think it's made us better, yeah, than perfect. And our relationship is always strong. We got there, and like I said, you know, what is it, "Love is Blind," where they're like, "I, we kind of want to get into an argument before we walk down the aisle." Like I said, before we had been through something really hard, yeah, so by the time you even proposed to me, and we walked down the aisle, yeah, we knew that we could get through that, yeah, and that we could get through anything that might come up because, like you said, those were...

Nicole: Still external things that they were affecting you internally, but if we're coming from a unified front from now on, there's nothing that you and I can't handle, right, exterior because we have a good solid foundation of our love for each other and us together. But I agree, if you're not there, like if this person is not your person, like you genuinely feel that they're different and they treat you the way you want to be treated, and all of that sort of things that, you know, makes you feel connected to the person and that they're the one, then if you want to take them back, then you should. Like, nobody should judge you. Like, like you said, you're scared to be judged, like, you know, we're putting ourselves out there. I'm scared to be judged, like I took you back after you broke up with me twice. Like, I get it, but at the same time, I'm like, nobody knows and me the way that you and I do, and it...

John: Was worth it to me, yeah. And I, and I'll say this as a side note too, just for, for guys, I mean it applies to women as well, but the big thing that I was struggling with too during that year period was, I was like, it would have been so much better if I got a divorce, had a year to process that, and then met Nicole. That would have been the perfect timeline. Now, of course, that timeline, the actual perfect timeline would be, you know, if you're not in a relationship where you're being treated properly, you should leave, yeah, 'cause you don't want to get stuck, you know, in a situation that you don't feel like is the right one for you, and then time ticks on, and then now you're fighting against time and other circumstances, you know, too. But I agree with the, at least the divorce part. But so, yeah, so a year would have been nice, you know, I mean, and that's what I was...

Nicole: Struggling with. I was like, ah, this would be so much easier if I just had a year to process this, and then everything would be great. And that's why I was like, I have to break up with her because I need time to process it, you know, and I, and it's hard to emotionally process something when you're emotionally involved with someone, you know, so it makes things hard to do that. So don't do that to yourself. And that's also why don't have affairs, is because that literally will mean you will have no time to process the previous thing. It's, I mean, it's bad for other reasons, but also that, like, you won't have time to process, right. And so you don't think that you're going to need time, but you do need time to process. It is, it is very hard to keep it together, you. That's why most affairs end up not working out when people get together after an affair, is because they, that transition is not a clean transition. It needs to be a clean transition. So, well, don't have affairs, yeah, I mean, obviously that, but also...

John: Just to think about, you know, we, the people talk about the rebound, mhm, if you go through a breakup, a significant breakup, or a divorce, give yourself a year, maybe two years before you get into a serious relationship again. That's the smart advice because you're, feel like people do do that. It's just when they not, people are like, all right, ready to go, get on the dating app, and like, don't do it, yeah, I mean, yeah, I agree with that. But I think also on the takeback thing too, that it makes sense also if someone has demonstrated change, right.

Nicole: Well, that has to be the thing. That has to be, that's why the actions have to match the words. Like, you have to demonstrate it, you have to show it, right, over time. Even with our connection, there's no way, like I said before, we would have lasted if you didn't show me, yeah, that there was a difference. But I already knew you were that type of person, so I expected that. But if you didn't, then I, you know, obviously, this wouldn't have worked out the way that it did now. But I think it's, relationships are complicated, and we come on here, and we try to tell people the best way to do the things, and it's because we've done and been through the messy things too, you know, like we're not perfect, but that's why we feel better than perfect because we've been through the imperfect times, and we've broken up, and you know, we've, you've had a mental breakdown, and you know, we're still here. We made it through those things.

John: Exactly, yeah, and it gives you more confidence in your relationship. I'm not saying go break up so that you build more confidence either, but I'm just saying that, you know, don't feel like, oh, I can't take this person back 'cause then I'll look this certain way, or yeah, that it should not be about, you can't, you can't do that because it has...

Nicole: To be about the relationship, and that's what I had to do in all of those messy situations that we were in back then, is be like, look, I'm going to look ridiculous. Like, I'm going to look like a pushover. I'm going to look like some woman that's getting walked all over by some man that's just breaking up with her. But I knew that that wasn't the reality, and even if people thought that was, I was okay with them misunderstanding it because our relationship was the best relationship that I'd ever had. So it's like, even though these things were happening, and they were really hard, and they hurt really bad, it was still like worth it to take you back and to, you know, move forward and make our relationship better and stronger, and yeah, then we ended up here. And it helped a lot to just, I mean, I think once I got back to San Diego and I was being a good parent to...

John: Sophia, then there, like a lot of the guilt and stuff, and the shame disappeared, you know, I mean, I felt like I was back on track and doing what I was supposed to be doing because it's hard to, you know, you when you have something so good, you feel like you don't really deserve that because you did something bad to get it, you know, right.

Nicole: You know, that's also, I don't have affairs. It's hard to get past that though, in your head, like you have to really, 'cause you have to realize, okay, well, this is what it is now, and you have to let that stuff go, and you know, people make mistakes, and they do wrong things, but yeah, you know, so, so yeah, so there's, there's a lot to it for sure. I mean, hey, before you even came along, and I got cheated on a long time ago, go back to the cheating episode, yeah, they, my best friend and my boyfriend at the...

John: They cheated together and then got married, had a kid. I was wondering how you can have a foundation built on that. They both cheated; she also had a boyfriend at the time. I'm not saying what they did was right, but it didn't seem to bother them much. They kept going. It's not the right thing, but sometimes that happens. It should be avoided. If you're planning to get a divorce or can't be in your marriage anymore, get a divorce. Then take a year or two to process it before going back out there. I'm not promoting cheating, but life isn't always clean cut.

Nicole: Exactly, sometimes you have to go through the mess to get to the good stuff. But back to whether you should take somebody back, it often comes up with alcoholics or drug users. If the breakup occurred because of such issues but they've cleaned up their life and demonstrated this for six months, they're clean, got their life on track, it might be worth considering. For me, it would have to be two years of being clean. That's a big deal; it affects a lot of people around you.

John: Six months is good, depending on the person and situation. But in those situations, there's a difference between someone coming back because they're sorry and someone whose life was messed up, they straighten up their life and come back. It comes down to whether it's a relationship issue or not. With addiction and alcohol, that does affect the other person a lot.

Nicole: Yes, and the person is so addicted that it doesn't even cross their mind. That's why I think it'd take longer. Six months seems like an easy amount of time to relapse. I would do two years just to have it really there. Substance abuse typically does damage the relationship, so more time is needed to figure out.

John: Agree, it's a severe circumstance. But if you do take someone back, how do you do it? I've coached guys who broke up with a woman for good reasons, and then she wants to come back. There are two scenarios: you break up with someone and then try to come back, or you break up and the person you broke up with comes back wanting to change. You've got to be really clear about the standards you have.

Nicole: Unless it was very obvious and seemed permanent, I still don't know if I'd take somebody back. It's going to be a lot harder to work through that, even if the person has changed. You're still going to be almost triggered. They have to have patience with you. You might put too much pressure on them, thinking they're going back to who they were. It's going to take a lot.

John: Can it be done? Yes. Do I think it should be done most of the time? Probably not. It's easier to take what you learned from someone breaking up with you, work on it, and then move on to a different relationship. It's just going to be really hard, and I don't know if everybody wants it bad enough to really work through it. If they do, I think it can work, but there has to be true remorse.

John: The situation that I dealt with one of my coaching clients, but the woman had tried to come back to him multiple times after he had broken up with her for some specific reasons. Every time she's trying to come back, she's like, "I miss you." It wasn't, "I'm sorry I did this or disrespected you constantly." It was almost like, "Why are you being so difficult?" It was almost like, "Why are you making a big deal out of nothing?" That's showing that okay, nothing has changed here.

Nicole: Right. It sounds like she was just... Why are you being so difficult? It was almost like, "Why are you making a big deal out of nothing?" It's like, that's also what men say a lot to women too. "Why are you making a big deal of nothing?" So it's like men can kind of see the frustrating part, right? When a man expresses what bothers him, and then a woman's kind of like, "Why are you making a big deal?" You know? And I agree with that. She never was saying like, "I am sorry I hurt you, and I'm sorry I did these things." Which, that's why too, that she keeps saying, "I miss you, I miss you." And then the last time, she says the right thing. I wouldn't trust that personally. I'd be like, now you just figured out the right way to say something. So that's why, unless it's a... Unless you feel like this is your soulmate, this is your person, right? They're going through a hard time, but they're really trying, and you know that person well enough, and you think the relationship is worth saving, yeah, don't take somebody back. Yeah, go on to something else.

John: Yeah, and because it could be better for you. And once someone has sort of abused you in a certain way, it's so much easier for them to do it again because they've crossed the line. It's sort of like that book you're reading, "A Child Called It," right? And it's like, you read that, if you're familiar with it, it's an extreme case of child abuse. And you kind of like, "How could this mother do this to this boy?" And she didn't treat the other kids like this. What was going on? It's like, well, once you've done it to someone, now it's easier to keep on doing it to them. And it's a weird psychological thing that happens with us. But it's like, once you've done it, you know, that's why the "once a cheater, always a cheater" is also a thing. Because it's more contextual. Once you've cheated on someone, you're more likely to cheat on that same person. Now, obviously, you're more likely to cheat in general, I get it. But I'm saying, in that specific case, that's why it becomes a thing. And that's why when you take someone back who's already, for example, in this situation, if a woman has been extremely disrespectful to you as a man, and you take her back, and she says, "I'm going to be respectful. I apologize," whatever, she's already crossed some boundaries. If she's already called you, said, "I hate you," she probably still doesn't look at you in a respectful light. She's going to try to convince herself, which isn't her actually believing it. Does that make sense? So that's where it's like, some things are better just leave it and move on. But like I said, the only thing that I will say to go for it is if you feel like it's the relationship for you, like your soulmate, the person you're supposed to be with, and that they still love and care about you. Because that's the thing, is like, I always felt like you loved me, and you cared about me, and that never went away.

Nicole: Yeah, and if it had, then we probably wouldn't be here right now. But it didn't, so that's the difference. And I think that you can tell where someone really loves you, but they're going through a hard time, or you know, something's going on in their life, versus someone doesn't really respect you or always show you love. And then now they're like breaking up with you. And it's like, should you really go back to that? Is it worth going back to?

John: Right. Yeah, because you have to look at it like, if I go back to this relationship and it turns out the exact same, am I going to be pissed? And again, if you genuinely think it's going to go back and it's going to be the same, do not go back.

Nicole: Well, some people get to the point where they're like, well, you know, it just... I don't want to be alone. That's horrible. Like being alone is sucky. So they're like, oh well, at least the familiar evil... Don't even get me started. Like going back to the thing that was not so bad, maybe it wasn't so bad. You know, maybe I just thought I could do better, and now, so you're going to compromise your whole life because you don't want to be alone for however long until you find somebody that's a better fit for you?

John: Is what I hear.

Nicole: Yeah, that's what a lot of people end up thinking. And you know what? Those people need to be alone because they probably can't... They don't know how to be alone.

John: Yeah, because that's horrible. Or they feel bad. Do you think the person, granted this person's maybe not treating you the best, but do you think that that person deserves to be with somebody who doesn't really want to be with them, who just doesn't want to be alone? I don't think anybody deserves that.

Nicole: No, I don't think people deserve to be abused or whatever, but I also don't think that you should fight fire with fire and be like, well, this person's abusing me, and I don't want to be alone, so I'll just stay.

John: Yeah, I agree. That sounds like everybody's miserable.

Nicole: Yeah. But I hope we actually answered the question because we did dive a little bit more into ours. But I think it's important because, you know, we violate the rule, know. But in the instance, too, it's like you have to trust your gut. Because either way, if you listen to somebody be like, "Don't take people back." Like, I could have done, we wouldn't be here. Like, I could have been like, no, Nicole, don't take him back. It's the principle of it. Like, you're going to look like this. We wouldn't be here. But in my gut, I was like, this is a good man. He's just going through a hard time. He loves me, and that's what kept me, you know, coming back to you all those times.

John: Where you tried to run away from me. I'm just kidding. But well, and it was also like, like you were saying, is that I didn't want to break up with you. You even said in the moment, you literally said that I feel like it's something I need to do. It's nothing that I want to do. You trying to protect me by doing something that was hurtful, but I get the idea behind it. And in those instances, you know, like I said, you have to see how you feel about the situation if it's about your relationship, and you guys are breaking up.

John: Don't go back. It's going to be very hard to fix. Because you could have fixed it when you had the relationship. That's what I'm saying, it's not going to suddenly magically be fixed. If you have issues you didn't work through, then if you do get back together, you're going to have to work through those issues. So, it's not going to be easy. So, if you didn't do it, why didn't you do it when you could have? You know what I'm saying? If it came down to that, it would have been worth it to you in that instance too, if you got to a point of breaking up.

Nicole: Yeah, besides like your situation where you thought that you were doing it for me. If you're breaking up with somebody because you don't want to be with them, done. There is no take-backs. Even if they come back and they want to do everything, I don't think you should do it. Now, if it's an outside circumstance like yours where you're like, "I'm trying not to hurt you while I'm processing this," or like, "I have to move away for college but I love you," and you genuinely know, certain things like that, yeah. If it feels right to you, you don't have to, but if it feels right to you. But if it's about your relationship or it's like you don't... I risk it, but now you do ski. So, if someone breaks up with you because you don't ski, you tell them to kick rocks because that you can't fix that.

John: Yeah, but yeah. So, hopefully, and a lot of times too, the thing is, you don't want to be the default choice as well. So, it's like a lot of times if someone breaks up with you and then they come back to you, it's because they're like, "Oh well, actually, I guess I'm not as much of a stud as I thought I was," or, "Yeah, I guess, you know, you weren't that bad." Like, it's like, you know, absolutely not. No, that's not the one. That's not the thing. It's like to let me just see what else is out there, and if I don't find anything better, well then, hey, you know, hello again. That should go without saying, that that is not good. Do not do it.

Nicole: Is it time for our... yeah, I guess we... our thing for the week.

John: Yeah, I mean, so we had like a conversation, and you were upset because you felt like I didn't fully trust you. I feel like it's not even a point to bring up what it was because it was just like a really small thing, the conversation was actually about, but the meaning of it was a big thing. You felt like I didn't fully trust you, and I didn't want you to feel that way. I wasn't trying to make you feel that way. I felt like I was having like a boundary about something, but you felt like I didn't trust you and your judgment or that I didn't believe that you were, you know, looking out for me or something like that. So, we ended up having a pretty lengthy discussion, but it wasn't... yeah, bad. It just still came off a little like hostile.

Nicole: Mhm.

John: Yeah, which at the end of the conversation, we realized was also some of the things from like your kind of like go-to demeanor because of how you had to be before. It's almost like, you know, a trained response because of the relationship you were in for so long, and you've done it before, and I know that it is not directed towards me. But it's like I had to bring it up so that you could acknowledge it so that it could stop being the automatic response. Does that make sense?

Nicole: And then you, you have had a hard time, sometimes not now, but you did because you did acknowledge it then, like acknowledging that that was a result of that, right? And I think you felt like maybe I was trying to shame you for it or like bring something up to like dig at you, but it was really just so that you could realize that you were falling into a kind of pattern based on what you had dealt with before.

John: Yeah, I think in my mind, it was more like if you say that it was from something that I had dealt with from before, then it invalidates the current issue because there's still something that I am upset about, even though something from the past may have triggered my response. Which I got, once I understood. Now I understand that that does not conflate or diminish the other side of things. And it helped me too because, you know, I finally acknowledge and process that, which, I mean, within the last week, I've handled things a lot differently. Like, just even little things where I might have gotten upset before.

Nicole: Mhm.

John: And again, people have to understand too, when we say hostile, it's not normal hostile. It just means not being loving, not using nice language, you know what I'm saying? It's hostile in our situation because we just don't talk that way. But I agree that most people would not call it hostile because they're used to yelling, screaming. It's like, you know, if you drive in a car at 100 miles per hour, it doesn't feel any different than driving at 20. But if you get in a Tesla and you put the pedal to the metal and you go from 20 to 100 in 5 seconds, you feel that because what you feel is a change in speed, the acceleration. And so, it's the same thing. If your normal conversations are at like 20 miles per hour, or maybe your normal conversations are 100 miles per hour, whatever it is, if you have a change in that, you'll feel so quickly.

Nicole: Yeah.

John: Yeah, so that's the thing. But anyway, my point is that I realized that I was doing that and why I was doing that. So then I dropped that defense and just started speaking openly when something came up. You know, like there was a book club thing, and you didn't...

Nicole: I'm so sorry. I was like, like five people showed up at one time, and I'm like, "Oh my God." And then people were trying to get in the gate, then our power goes off right before the book. So, I was just like, and then before then, we were ordering pizza, you know, you didn't ask me what I wanted on the pizza, you know, and like, again, I wasn't super offended by it, but I was a little bit. So, I just brought it up. I just said, "Oh, you didn't ask me what I wanted on the pizza." That's all I needed to say.

John: Mhm.

Nicole: So, I wasn't hostile about it, right? And then you just obviously apologized, you know, "I forgot," you know, and so, and that was fine. And that was a better way to handle it. So, it gave me a tool too because I felt safe to just... I don't know why I didn't feel safe to do that before.

John: Right.

Nicole: I guess because it wasn't safe before. Not with you, it was always safe with you, but...

John: Yeah, no, but I mean like before in your previous relationship, it wasn't safe. And so, that's why every time that...

John: You had reacted that way, I knew it. I didn't take it personally because I knew it was what you had to switch on in order to even make it through a hard conversation. But at the same time, you're not in that space anymore, and so I have to bring it to your attention so that you can adjust that, right? And I'm not expecting you to be perfect. I'm not expecting you to not slip up, and exactly, that is what it's like. You know, like, unfortunately, that's what it is because you get so used to trying to protect yourself in a situation that doesn't seem safe that even when you get in a safe place, you're like, ready for attack at any time, even though it's not coming.

Nicole: Yeah, he's such a sweet dog, but don't fart around him; he'll bite your ass. He doesn't like farts.

John: Where did that come from?

Nicole: Sure, yeah, that's you, John. If that's how you want to describe your situation we're talking about here, fine. But yeah, so no, it's been good, yeah.

John: Besides that, you know, and then that wasn't even bad, but we figure out little pieces, you know? And there was something that, how you were interacting with me, that you made some changes to. I don't even remember now; it might have been even last week or so. And we're both working together, and we're both implementing the changes together, which is making things just smoother, you know what I mean? So, you know, it prevents anything from even coming up.

Nicole: Yeah, so well, and you have to be there to help your partner through things. Like, seeing you get hostile and defensive, I just wanted to help you with it, right? Because I could see where it was coming from. Like, I want to help you not feel that way, to not feel unsafe, even though I know, you know it's safe. Your body's still reacting like it's not, and I just want to help you not feel that way. Just like you tell me all the time, you're like, "I want you to feel, you know, safe and not have to worry about anything."

John: You know, that's also why I went back to you all those times, too, is because I knew you cared, and I knew that you wouldn't cheat on me, you wouldn't leave me again. Like, I, and if you did, then that really would have been the third time, would have been the last time. But there's no third time. But I know that after all that we went through, yeah, if something were to happen, like, then we would have just called it quits because we've tried really hard.

Nicole: Yeah, but instead, we used all of that stuff and made us better, and we keep getting better because we've learned how to get through that, and we've learned how to help each other grow, and us as individuals. And so, there's genuinely nothing that I feel like we could face and not get through together.

John: Yeah, good. All right, well, I mean, I don't think we can really end this episode without me checking our iTunes.

Nicole: Oh, let's see. I should have just had this pulled up, but you know, but I do have the search already ready to go. Better Than Perfect podcast, let's see. What if someone left a review, and then they're like, "They told me that they would give me..."

John: Yeah, we don't want to leave you guys hanging.

Nicole: No, no, nothing, nothing. Dang.

John: Yeah, you guys, okay, we'll just go home and cry.

Nicole: All right, guys. Oh, but do leave a review, you know, on iTunes, Spotify, whatever you like. I mean, I didn't check Spotify, but I'm just, you know, iTunes is the...

John: I'll check the Spy Tunes.

Nicole: The Spy Tunes.

John: All right, you, we find our way.