Nicole [00:00:00]: But you don't have to try everything on the menu if you have something that you like. People are discontented because they think that they are missing out. Because when you try to find the thing that you feel like you're missing, you lose what you have.

John [00:00:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:00:12]: And that's.

John [00:00:13]: And then you'll really be sad.

Nicole [00:00:15]: Yeah. Was a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

John [00:00:19]: I'm vaguely chasing those bushes.

Nicole [00:00:22]: Get out of the bushes. You got. You don't need to be in the bushes.

John [00:00:26]: Get out of the bushes.

Nicole [00:00:27]: Beyond the perfect we discover through our.

John [00:00:30]: Flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find.

Nicole [00:00:44]: All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John [00:00:53]: Every time I looked at you, you looked away. And every time that I looked away, you did look at me.

Nicole [00:00:58]: It's because we're professionals. That's why it is. Right after you've done 47 episodes, you're a professional.

John [00:01:05]: I mean, I kind of felt more like a Chuck E. Cheese animatronic, Like. Like going back and forth.

Nicole [00:01:12]: Yeah.

John [00:01:13]: But we won't dive more into the P. Diddy thing, because we could, but we can't.

Nicole [00:01:19]: We.

John [00:01:19]: We can't.

Nicole [00:01:20]: No, it's dangerous. It's dangerous at this point, too. There's too much connection.

John [00:01:25]: People be saying a lot of stuff.

Nicole [00:01:26]: So some of these people are, like, acting like he isn't allegedly killing people.

John [00:01:32]: Isn't allegedly.

Nicole [00:01:34]: Or is like he isn't allegedly killing people because they're just talking all kinds of stuff publicly. That.

John [00:01:41]: Yeah. I'm a little afraid because obviously there's a web here. Like, it's not just him.

Nicole [00:01:46]: Right.

John [00:01:46]: There's a web. There's things happening.

Nicole [00:01:49]: Yeah.

John [00:01:50]: Just like Pharrell making a Lego children's movie to tell his life story that we saw last night when we went to see Beetlejuice. I'm like, oh, yeah, why?

Nicole [00:01:59]: Oh, that's the thing. It's Beetlejuice, too. Not to spoil it, but, man, don't spoil it. I'm not gonna spoil it. Just, it's. It sucks. Not good. Like, Beetlejuice was not Beetlejuice, you know?

John [00:02:13]: Well, that's why you have to say why? Because he was like, he's also 70. What? Three. We looked it up. Yeah, the actor. 73.

Nicole [00:02:21]: And which. I give him that. But he just. It just. They could have had someone else play the role if he couldn't really do the role because, you know, his His Beetlejuice was not the original Beetlejuice.

John [00:02:33]: He got better towards Beetlejuice.

Nicole [00:02:36]: I can't even do it now.

John [00:02:38]: You did a good lesson.

Nicole [00:02:39]: I did a good last night.

John [00:02:40]: Oh, you can't do it because you're on camera.

Nicole [00:02:47]: I don't know. Something like that. It's hard to do it on a.

John [00:02:50]: You just wanted an excuse to do your Beetlejuice impression.

Nicole [00:02:53]: Yeah. Everyone's gonna be like, that Beetlejuice imp sucks. But that's.

John [00:02:57]: No, you can do a good one.

Nicole [00:02:58]: I can. I can't.

John [00:02:59]: You're like, it's possible, but next time Tim Burton called Johnson miss to do Beetlejuice.

Nicole [00:03:03]: Well, then also, like, you know, again, I don't think this is a spoiler per se, but is it. When Beetlejuice comes out, what does Beetlejuice say? Oh, it's showtime. Right? He did not say that in the movie. He said. I don't know what he said. Do you even remember what he said? But it wasn't, it's showtime. They didn't say it's showtime.

John [00:03:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:24]: It was just.

John [00:03:25]: I forget what he said.

Nicole [00:03:26]: Yeah. So disappointed.

John [00:03:29]: I mean, it's just I think they've tried to get as many of the old people just to, like, make people feel nostalgic, and I do think they did a good job. Like, we were talking about last night where they didn't make it to, like, 2024 with, like, a lot of the. Like, AI and the influencer and Tick Tock. Like, at one point they did, but I didn't mind that as much because they tried to make it more old school. Like, even the beginning credits. I like that it was giving, like, Hocus Pocus vibes was the best. The 90s, you know, movies that are. Yeah. You were like, I love this font.

Nicole [00:04:09]: Yeah, it was. Yeah, that's. I would have thought for the font, but only. But I would have left after the beginning credits if I. Yeah. I mean, it had no plot. The story was meant.

John [00:04:18]: I will say.

Nicole [00:04:19]: Yeah, it was just like a money.

John [00:04:21]: They were trying to do too much at one time.

Nicole [00:04:23]: Yeah.

John [00:04:23]: Because there's, like, multiple things happening at one time, and a lot of them kind of just dropped off. Like, they didn't explain them very well. But I mean, it's still Beetlejuice, so it was, like, good. And I liked seeing all the old people, you know, doing the stuff again because I'm sure it's really hard to get people to come back. Like you were talking about with the dad.

Nicole [00:04:45]: Oh, yeah. I forgot to look that up to See why it was. He wasn't there. I mean, he. I don't know. Maybe he died. I don't know.

John [00:04:51]: Maybe potentially. But. Yeah, so. But you should go see it just to like. Just to throw your own 2 cents in there.

Nicole [00:04:59]: If you like Beetlejuice, wait till it comes out on.

John [00:05:02]: Yeah, I guess you could do that.

Nicole [00:05:04]: And watch it when you're busy doing something else, like putting together some Walmart.

John [00:05:08]: Oh, my gosh.

Nicole [00:05:09]: Like, don't. Don't spend the whole two hours. You're just too nice, you know, you're harsh.

John [00:05:15]: You're a harsh critic. You're like, I should be a movie critic last night.

Nicole [00:05:19]: If it's. It's not. You know, it's not. Top Gun 2. Top Gun 2. Well, you know, that's.

John [00:05:23]: There's really.

Nicole [00:05:24]: No, that's how you do a sequel.

John [00:05:27]: Especially that after so many years.

Nicole [00:05:29]: Yeah, that's how you do it. Top Gun 2 is the only one. One of the best movies ever made, period.

John [00:05:34]: That's the only one, though, that I feel like the second one coming out so far in between was actually really, really, really good.

Nicole [00:05:43]: Normally it's not. So. Yeah. Matrix four. Please don't even. Matrix. I don't even.

John [00:05:49]: I forgot we saw that in the theaters and I can't remember what it was about.

Nicole [00:05:53]: It was a meta. It was just dumb. I don't remember what the actual. It was just dumb. Horrible. So with that, what do you have for us today? What is the. The topic?

John [00:06:07]: This topic is a little niche.

Nicole [00:06:09]: Okay.

John [00:06:10]: For sure. We were hanging out with some of our friends and they were talking about this sort of topic because they know some people.

Nicole [00:06:19]: I love that you said niche instead of niche.

John [00:06:22]: Is niche is the correct pronunciation? Or is it like potato, potato.

Nicole [00:06:26]: Not niches. Like, I need to pick my niche.

John [00:06:34]: I don't even know what you just said, but, like. Did you say, like, itch?

Nicole [00:06:40]: Like, it's like my niche.

John [00:06:42]: What is that? Like, what does that mean?

Nicole [00:06:44]: You just use the word niche.

John [00:06:46]: I know what niche means, but it sounds like you're trying to use it.

Nicole [00:06:49]: Niche is what people.

John [00:06:50]: Now I can't even.

Nicole [00:06:51]: Niche, right?

John [00:06:54]: Oh, yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying is like potato. Potato.

Nicole [00:06:57]: Yeah.

John [00:06:58]: Niche sounds better to me. So they were talking about this couple that had gotten together when they were really young and had only been with each other. Right, Right. And they. They've been married for like 20 years or something. And then now they've started, I guess, like, essentially swinging, kind of like the Mormon wives or like, open their relationship Right. And I thought that was interesting because I can see where they're coming from. Right. Like, they have no other experience with anybody else. They've gone all these years. Like, and I can see where even if they're, like, still satisfied with their choice, there's probably these questions that they don't have answered. Right. Like, what is it even, like, to be with other people? Like, are things drastically different than this or not? Like, is this as amazing as it seems? Which maybe you don't want to find out the answer to that question. Which again, is also why I'm like, that's still maybe not a good idea. Like, there's so many layers to this. Right. That's why I was like, this would be a good topic. Even though it's very specific.

Nicole [00:08:09]: Right.

John [00:08:10]: There's so many layers because it's like, I get that you didn't have your phase where you went out and you were crazy and you experienced other people, and so you have these curiosities. But, but also, do you want to find out the answer to your questions? Because what if it's not going to make your relationship better? And then like you said when we were kind of talking about it, like, we didn't talk in full length, obviously. Yeah, but you were talking about how your relationship dynamic can't ever really go back.

Nicole [00:08:43]: Right, Exactly. Yeah.

John [00:08:45]: And so that's also true. And it's like, is it worth it? I mean, we, we wouldn't know because we're not doing it. But I thought it would be a good topic to kind of dive into because there's so many layers of it.

Nicole [00:08:58]: Yeah, there is. Yeah.

John [00:08:59]: So I don't know what you would specifically call it.

Nicole [00:09:01]: Right.

John [00:09:02]: The topic, but I'm sure we'll figure that out. But at least now you have a full understanding basically of what I'm diving into.

Nicole [00:09:10]: Yeah, that's a good one. It's. There's so much to say on it.

John [00:09:15]: I, I, oh, wait, there's one more thing.

Nicole [00:09:16]: Oh, yeah, go ahead.

John [00:09:17]: There's a one more layer that I want to lay out here because I want to lay out all the layers like onion.

Nicole [00:09:22]: Okay.

John [00:09:22]: Just call me Shrek over here. But the other layer that goes into this is that while they're hooking up with other people, they still have the security of a relationship. They still have the security of a marriage. And that I feel like is important because when you're in your wild and crazy phase when you're younger, what. Whenever you go into that and you're single, you don't have that security. Right. Like, it's just these people. And, like, people might not view it as a security. They might actually like it because it's not an attachment. But at the same time, even if you're single and you're going out and you're dating multiple people and you're being with multiple people, I feel like as humans, we do have this desire to have somebody there, like, no matter what, like, to support us and, you know, be there. So while they're doing all this, they have each other as a support system. Like, they have each other where it's like, oh, I go hook up with this person. It sucks. I can just go hook up with my husband later because, like, I know that's gonna be good or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, they have that.

Nicole [00:10:32]: Yeah.

John [00:10:33]: In the back burner. And at times it's not even in the back burner because they're still married. Like, they're still living their married life, I'm sure, to some degree. But then going out and hooking up with other people and then coming back home with each other.

Nicole [00:10:46]: Let me start with that one then, because here's what I would say about that. I agree with you about the having the security that it's an important thing that changes. However, I would question. I would say, what gives you security in a relationship?

John [00:11:08]: You're asking me specifically? I mean, I would say that it's like being yourself and knowing that the person that you chose to be with loves you no matter what and is going to stand by you.

Nicole [00:11:24]: And how much security do you have, as in the relationship when you know that your partner is hooking up with other people that they may fall in love with?

John [00:11:33]: Look, I agree with you, but they're both doing it. And so I think that in a weird way, because they're both doing it, they do still have that security. I don't know if that makes sense, but it does in my brain. I don't know how to describe it. It's like it almost cancels each other out. Because I agree, if, like, one of them was doing it Right. That's not. But the fact that both of them are doing it, it's like the security that both of you guys are doing this thing. And I'm sure they made some sort of agreement. Maybe, I would think. I hope they're not going, like, total off the wall. You know, I think there's some sort of. Even the swingers on the Mormon Wives had an agreement at first. And granted, they went off the wall and they fell in love with each other. Like you're saying. I'm not saying that doesn't even happen. I'm saying that you're right, that you greatly increase the risk of that happening because now you're being intimate with other people.

Nicole [00:12:28]: Right? Like, and I mean, I would say that actually if it's one person doing it, then you have more security. And I'll tell you why. Because if two people are doing it, it's twice the risk. And you have a person that knows that the other person's doing it. So then they're not as careful with not falling in love with someone else because they're like, well, they might be. So then, then, then I'm not as careful about. You see what I'm saying? So I think you're just creating more. I think there's the illusion of the security. But it's just like people that are today in society where they're like, oh, well, I have a job, right? It's safe. I have a job. A 9 to 5. Whereas 50 years ago having a job meant security, today, no, they let you go.

John [00:13:21]: It's. Everyone's replaceable, right?

Nicole [00:13:23]: Everyone's replaceable. And so I think it's a false sense of security. And, you know, and I have some experience in this.

John [00:13:32]: Yeah. I mean, I want to know how that, like, felt, you know, like, because even if you consciously didn't really think about is different. Like, it is different to go out and hook up with other people when you have someone else at home. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, like I said, even if consciously you're not thinking about it. I do feel like there is like a security blanket. It's like, okay, I can go out and pick up this guy, right? Like, and we could, whatever. And if it sucks, I can go back to my husband and like, you know, he still loves me. Like, you're not actively thinking that, right? But you are in some degree in the back of your mind. Like, no matter what way you're thinking about it doesn't have to be exactly like what I just said.

Nicole [00:14:27]: Right, Right, right.

John [00:14:28]: There is some of, like, I can go and put myself out there and I. It's not as scary because this person is at home waiting for me.

Nicole [00:14:36]: But why does it that matter? Like, why would that be because you scary.

John [00:14:41]: Well, because you have somebody that is going to be there for you no matter what happens out in the real world. When you're out in the real world and you're single and you really like somebody and you're Pursuing them. You don't have a backup plan. You don't have.

Nicole [00:14:54]: Yeah.

John [00:14:55]: Someone else that you care about that's going to be there if it doesn't work out with this person. Does that make sense?

Nicole [00:15:01]: Yeah. Yeah. I still think that that's not really the thinking that you.

John [00:15:06]: Well, then what is the thinking? Because, you know, but I'm just saying that it makes sense that people feel more secure in doing that. I would think like opening it up. Even though I agree with you, it's. It's never going to be a secure thing because you shouldn't open your relationship up, in my opinion.

Nicole [00:15:21]: Right.

John [00:15:21]: But.

Nicole [00:15:22]: But yeah, it is.

John [00:15:23]: There is a level to it. That is what I'm talking about.

Nicole [00:15:28]: It's such a false sense of security. That's what I'm saying is that, I.

John [00:15:33]: Mean, I can see that.

Nicole [00:15:33]: Right. Because I've coached a lot of guys, some guys that have been in some of these kind of situations and their sense of security was misplaced. And especially when they had a one, one side on open ended, agreed upon relationship and they thought, oh well, she, she's going to stick around. She's going to, you know, and that.

John [00:15:56]: Was not as she shouldn't.

Nicole [00:15:57]: But that's not the case because that security was like, oh, we have such a good family and relationship and everything's going good so we have the safety to be able to do this. Which is.

John [00:16:10]: Well, that logic makes zero sense.

Nicole [00:16:13]: Yeah.

John [00:16:14]: But then why do people do it? Why do again, men do it? A lot of times they're the ones with like the one sided open.

Nicole [00:16:22]: Yeah.

John [00:16:23]: How can they even. And even this couple, we're talking about both of them. How can you go out and be with other people and then come home and sleep in the bed with someone you married or even be intimate with them? Like that is just hard for me to wrap my head around.

Nicole [00:16:41]: Yeah. I mean, again, from experience. Was it episode four if.

John [00:16:49]: Yeah, it's one of the early ones.

Nicole [00:16:50]: One of the early ones. But I won't go into all of the, the details. But for some of the details, I was, I was married before. I did not end things in the proper way. I stepped outside of the marriage. Right. As a recap. Again, the episode. We don't have time to get into all the details. No, I'm not condoning what I did or that kind of behavior.

John [00:17:19]: We know.

Nicole [00:17:20]: But I'm not also dooming someone to eternal damnation. They're unredeemable. There are circumstances and there are different circumstances. But in my circumstance, I was Fed up, done with the relationship, was looking for a way out. So in that case it does create a different. Yeah, it wasn't like I was bored. Right. It wasn't like.

John [00:17:53]: Right. So it is different than like what we're specifically talking about.

Nicole [00:17:57]: But in that situation, what was going on for me, some of the things was there was a bit of the sowing the wild oats, not having a wild phase experience.

John [00:18:08]: Well, you got married young, you know, like.

Nicole [00:18:10]: Cause I got married at 21.

John [00:18:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:13]: And I had only had one previous sexual partner. I'd never really dated or anything, so.

John [00:18:22]: But that aspect, it is similar.

Nicole [00:18:24]: Ish in that way. But. But the reason why I say that it, you know, it's not as similar as it would appear at the surface is that had I had a good relation, had I had the relationship that we have, even if I hadn't sown my wild oats, I wouldn't have felt compelled to do that. Right?

John [00:18:48]: Yeah. You think so? Like really.

Nicole [00:18:50]: Yeah, I know so. Because it was only because I had gone so many years, like 15 years or so without thinking that. Not, not that it wasn't ever in my head at all. But I was not going to execute it. It was not worth the risk.

John [00:19:07]: I wasn't faithful and loyal and committed to the decision you made to get married.

Nicole [00:19:13]: Because I knew that, hey, yeah, you go out to get some pizza and there's other pizza parlors, but you've gone to this pizza parlor, you can eat the pizza that you got at that parlor. It's not, it's silly to just the John examples. So in that situation, then that became. When you're not happy, then those things rise to the surface. There is also in my case, a big insecurity around dating and women and being found attractive and. And so I wanted to prove something. Right. To myself, to people who doubted me. Right.

John [00:20:01]: But if you had a better relationship, you don't feel like you would have been insecure or anything like that because.

Nicole [00:20:06]: Yeah. I think it's important in a relate for a relationship to be good for you to feel secure in your sexuality and that your partner is attracted to you and that you're attractive in. In general. Right. I guess more so that like the partner creates that.

John [00:20:24]: The desire.

Nicole [00:20:25]: Right.

John [00:20:25]: That you talk about.

Nicole [00:20:26]: Yeah, yeah. Because if you're getting that and you feel that sense of it, then you don't need to look elsewhere for it. Right. And it manifests in various ways. Women, it manifests with, you know, thirst traps and things like that when they're in A relationship that's not. They're looking for outside attention for men, for. For men. It manifests in them going out and trying to pick up girls or in some way or have a. Have a car, a fancy car or what? You know, to get the attraction. So. Yeah. So long story short, that's. Those are some of the other factors that were, you know.

John [00:21:02]: But what about, like. And I know that it's losing half your stuff, and you had a kid, and I get that.

Nicole [00:21:10]: Yeah.

John [00:21:11]: But I guess I just don't get the point of being. Going out and being with other people and then sleeping in the same bed as the person that you're doing, like you're married to. You know what I mean? Like, how does that not make somebody feel a certain type of way? Like, even these. This couple. Right? Like, yeah. How can you go out and sleep with other people and then get back in your bed and act like a married couple?

Nicole [00:21:39]: Yeah. It's weird, you know, switching the modes. I think it was a compartmentalization to a degree. Right. Where you could be in, like, a family mode. When you've been with someone for a very long time, you have a sort of companionship, friendship that is underlying the relationship, and that doesn't disappear just because you're unfaithful. You know, to be blunt. Right.

John [00:22:06]: Or you've been coexisting for so long that you can still coexist.

Nicole [00:22:10]: Right. And so it's kind of a weird thing. At some point, you're like, this person is my friend. You know, you almost want to share your experience of what you're doing, which seems odd. Right. But these are the weird things that happen. But also some of these hoops you have to jump through to do the kind of stuff that I did where you have to compartmentalize things because you can't really deal with it. You know, like, when you ask that question of, like, how can you do this? You. You're psyched.

John [00:22:43]: You don't think about it because you're. Then you'll feel the guilt and the shame and all that stuff.

Nicole [00:22:49]: Yeah. Your psyche is pushing it out. Like, it won't bring those two things in. Right. Because look what happened to me later on.

John [00:22:57]: It all hit you like a ton of bricks.

Nicole [00:22:59]: Yeah. Cause it was like, oh, yeah, this is actually what you did. Right. When I was going out and having a good time and doing all this and being the cool guy that, like, you know, pickup artists and all this stuff, I wasn't thinking about those things. Right. I was aware of them, but it wasn't. It didn't make the real emotional connection that made it real. It's like, okay, it's weird when you're. I imagine that someone who commits any kind of crime. Not that crime, Right. To some degree, feels disconnected from it and doesn't realize that they're the bad guy. Right?

John [00:23:38]: Oh, I'm sure.

Nicole [00:23:39]: And it's like when you realize, oh, yeah, okay, there's extenuating circumstances. Of course, there was things that were done to me, blah, blah, blah. But when I look at it now, I'm like, damn, I was a pretty bad guy, right? That was not a good thing. I was a bad guy. At the time, I thought I was a cool guy. Right. I had the ego.

John [00:24:01]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:02]: But I didn't really connect. This is bad, right? This is a very bad thing.

John [00:24:07]: It makes sense that your mind would push it out because then you'd have to face it. But side note, did I pick up the pickup artist when we got together? Like, I picked you up because you were just gonna go out and be single, and I picked you up and put you in the relationship box.

Nicole [00:24:27]: That's true. Yeah. It's like, I think it's.

John [00:24:29]: So who's the real pickup artist?

Nicole [00:24:30]: You trapped.

John [00:24:32]: Oh, traps.

Nicole [00:24:33]: Trapped. The pickup artist trapped.

John [00:24:35]: It didn't seem very hard to trap you, but.

Nicole [00:24:37]: Yeah, but you didn't know what you were getting.

John [00:24:40]: You're damn right about that.

Nicole [00:24:42]: It's like, pull this thread. Oh, that's what's connected to that threat.

John [00:24:47]: So I was like, yeah, yeah. Like, lift up the rug, See all the dirt, put it back down. But that was just my little side note. But, yeah, I understand your perspective. But I'm thinking after hearing what you said, yeah. Maybe this couple does talk about their things with each other because they've agreed to both do it.

Nicole [00:25:08]: But the thing is, look, I mean.

John [00:25:12]: You know, and so maybe they don't feel guilty. Maybe they're subconscious. Maybe they don't get into bed with each other. And they're like. They don't feel bad about it because they're both doing it.

Nicole [00:25:22]: For now.

John [00:25:23]: I mean, I agree.

Nicole [00:25:24]: Eventually the reality will hit.

John [00:25:26]: That's the thing sustainable about this.

Nicole [00:25:29]: Right? Because you can't avoid the emo. You. Okay? You could do this after a 20 year marriage if all that's left is a friendship.

John [00:25:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:42]: And even then, you're still friends. You're still hurting a friend pretty bad, right?

John [00:25:46]: That's what I'm saying. Even when you were saying that this person's like a friend, it's I wanted to bring it up then, so I guess I'll bring it up now because you're bringing it up. That doesn't still even seem like a friend to me because, yeah, like in the situation where it's one sided or you're cheating, you're hiding it, that's not a very good friend. But like you said, even if they know it still doesn't feel very friendly to me. Like, I think the better term is you. You can coexist with each other. You're like roommates who also interact more than normal roommates. Right. You're like two roommates who kind of are friends with each other. Ish. But you're not close because you can't be close if you're hiding things or like, even if you're sharing intimacy with other people, you can't be as close, you can't be as close as you would be in a monogamous relationship.

Nicole [00:26:35]: And that's where the real bad thing comes in is because you're not just betraying a marriage, in a relationship, in a commitment, you're betraying a friendship also that you're carrying on, you know, knowing what you're doing. That's the probably where I would imagine that it stings the most on the other side of it is that part of it. And that's the thing that makes you feel really shitty, I can tell you, is like. Because it's like I know what game I was playing and what things I was saying and how I was acting as if nothing was going on. And that's bad, right?

John [00:27:24]: Right. That's lying.

Nicole [00:27:25]: And, and so. Yeah, so. So what I'm saying is that regardless of what they say or how cool they are with it, you, if your relationship has degraded to the point where you are just roommates, then it's kind of a moot point because you're not really opening up the relationship anyway. You're just making a business deal, a partnership deal. You're just roommates and you're essentially getting a divorce except for on paper, you're hanging out, you're friends with benefits, whatever, but you're not really friends because you're, you can't have the intimacy because you're destroyed. No matter how open and honest that people are about it.

John [00:28:04]: What if they're doing it together like in the same room like the swinger people? And so it's not like, because even the Mormon swinger people were like, don't. You can't go off with somebody like without the other person knowing or Something like that. Or maybe it was even in general. And so I think they were all like in the same room. Do you think that makes a difference? Like if they're there and they're seeing the things. I mean, I would think that that's. Honestly, it's all bad in my mind, but that might be even worse.

Nicole [00:28:33]: It's worse. That's what I was about to say, because I'll tell you why. I mean, I'm trying to think how to keep this still PJ in PG and say this, but you're eating some ice cream, right? And then, you know, and then with your partner, and then someone else is eating some ice cream with your partner, and it appears that your partner enjoys that ice cream better. They're making better noises about the ice cream. Just. Okay, just. Just say, ah. This is just part of the. The thing. It. Don't tell me it's going to be 100% equal every single direction that you. Every. Everywhere in the food court.

John [00:29:18]: No.

Nicole [00:29:18]: Right. It's not. So. And tell me that you're not going to feel away about that, no matter who you are. Please, let's not.

John [00:29:25]: You've been together for 20 years. Like, that's a long time. And like you said, even if, like, maybe your relationship isn't as close or whatever as it once was and that's why you guys are doing it or whatever reason, right? You're going to care still because you've been with this person for 20 years.

Nicole [00:29:41]: When. When someone that doesn't even like you, right, Expresses their dislike to you or says they're not interested in you, you care as a human being. It pisses you off. You're people actually try to get with people that they don't like because that person is rejecting them in some way or a slight of them to get that validation. This is a real thing. It's not a good thing, but it's human nature. So I can't even imagine that it just. You know, I understand that people think that it's working, right? But the shit always hits the fan. That's what's going to happen when. When you realize what you're doing, when you come to terms with the truth, like, yeah, it is one thing to be stoic and to not be jealous and to suppress that as much as possible, but when it's in your face, when you're having a relationship with someone where you had something that was exclusive to you and now it's not, right, you, no matter how perfect of a saint you are, you cannot help but feel away.

John [00:30:43]: Right. You know, I agree.

Nicole [00:30:45]: So, I mean, can you imagine, like, I guess the other thing I was going to say. It's like, because some people are justifying it obviously saying, oh, and, and I don't, I don't mean this in a bad way. I think from a naive viewpoint, if you look at this and you say, oh, yeah, this makes sense. Like, if you've never been with anyone else, you guys just got married young, you never experienced anything else, and you've been together for 20 years, you have a solid relationship, then. Yeah. Together, you decide that you want to explore some other things. From a naive standpoint, sure. Seems. Seems fine. But let me ask you this question. If me and you got married, right.

John [00:31:21]: What we did.

Nicole [00:31:23]: Well, yeah. At, at 19 or, you know, like our first, first person we'd ever been with and we had the relationship that we have and it's. You. Would you ever.

John [00:31:34]: No.

Nicole [00:31:35]: Think that was a good idea?

John [00:31:36]: No.

Nicole [00:31:37]: Or even think that you would even really even want to consider it? I mean, maybe some thoughts would be going through your head, like, I wonder what it would be like to be with other people. Or I wonder what other kind of relationships would. Would be with. But it's, but see, people think that, like, that's such an essential thing. I have never tried heroin. I, like, I have thought to myself, I wonder what heroin would be like. Not to a serious degree. I don't need to go and experience heroin. I don't need to try something.

John [00:32:11]: You better not.

Nicole [00:32:13]: I don't need to smoke crack. Right. You know, I don't need to do those things. So that's why I say that if you have something that's good just because you haven't been with other people, just because you haven't had the experience. And again, I'm saying it from the perspective of someone who was in that position. And yeah, I did do what I did, but I didn't for 15 years or whatever, you know, and I wouldn't have had. Had a relationship like we do. And I, you know, it's easy for me to say it now because of how good our relationship is and because of how attracted I am to you and the, you know. But I, but someone could say, well, that's because you did do stuff and now you're, you know, which. It's hard for me to refute that.

John [00:32:59]: Right, Right.

Nicole [00:33:00]: But I know in my heart that it wouldn't matter because I know in the past that. That part, even though it did go through my head, it wouldn't have Compelled me enough to ever. I would never open a good relationship just because I had lack the experience.

John [00:33:18]: Yeah, I mean, you still had one other person, which is not a ton, but it is still something to reference. And I'm not saying that I agree with what they did, right? But I do think that there is something to them getting married so young and only being with each other, Right? I have always said that. I think that is a horrible idea. You know what I mean? Like I said, I get that if you have something really good, like you and I. I'm not saying not to do that, but at the same time, like, because you have had no other experiences to base anything off of, even if it's amazing, you. I think anybody would have crazy thoughts. I'm not saying to open the relationship, right? But I'm saying that they just literally have nothing to compare. Even one other person to compare it to is something over nothing. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I'm not, again, I'm not justifying it, right? But I just want to stress that I've always felt like I don't think people should get married very young, right? My parents didn't get married very young. And they instilled in me, you know, like, you should go and live your life. Like, not saying go and live your life in that way, right? But to live my life. And I agree with that because I was even having a talk with Sophia a few months ago, that if you find somebody in high school that is your soul mate, like, I get that. That is like a. A big deal. But then now you got to make sure you go to the same college or at least close enough. And then that could limit what you. You want to do as far as your college or your career. That could limit what they want to do. Because now you're focusing on just trying to stay together. And then, like, yeah, you have all these decisions now that are based not on what you want to do, but what you want to do as a couple, right? And you're so young that you don't really know what you want to do yet. Like, with your whole life, like, you can know that you want to be in a good relationship and you want to have, like, a traditional marriage or, like, a marriage full of love and, like, with someone that you really, really care about and that is your soulmate. But also at the same time, like, getting together in high school, you still have so much growing to do, even in college. Like, and I'm not saying to break up with the person you want to be with. But I think people who get together really young, right. Need to not get married until they're, like, 25. You can stay together.

Nicole [00:36:07]: Right?

John [00:36:08]: But you need to wait, because once you're married now, you officially really do have to involve that person in every single aspect of your life.

Nicole [00:36:18]: Yeah.

John [00:36:19]: Like, yeah, you have to take them into consideration because you're married. But if you're in a relationship, you could get to, like, college and be like, actually, like, I love you, but I want to go do this. And they can make the choice, right? Okay, I'll follow you. Or, well, I want to do this.

Nicole [00:36:35]: Right?

John [00:36:35]: And you can go your separate ways, and maybe in a few years, you end up back together. Like, you don't know. Like, and I get it's complicated, but I also get that I'm just thinking, because I was in a relationship, right? Like, all throughout college, right? Literally all throughout college, and people were like, when are you guys getting married?

Nicole [00:36:56]: Right?

John [00:36:56]: And I was like, I don't want to do that. You know? Like, I had just finished college. He didn't even finish college, right? And I'm like, I want to go use my degree. Like, I want to go out in the world, and I want to do something. And he was like, thinking about going in the military, and I'm like, I don't want to follow him around. Like, yeah, I want to do my own thing. And granted, it would have thought differently. It wasn't the right relationship. But, like, I just feel like when you're that young, you don't have a lot of life experiences at all. And so if you just get married and now you're doing, like, everything together in the sense of. And sometimes, too, you're doing things for the other person, and they should also be doing things for you, too, right. That, like, you do feel like you've missed out on making some of your own decisions and figuring out who you are as a person in a lot of ways, right. That when you get 15, 20 years in, you're like, I'm still kind of confused from back here, you know? Like, I'm still kind of confused from 19. I'm still kind of confused from 21. And I, you know, like, I've lived this life. I'm not saying that they're not living a happy marriage or there aren't good times, but I'm saying that, like, when you get married super young, I do feel like a lot of people end up having the. Not all of them, but a lot of people end up having these. Like, why didn't get to do this. And then now they're doing things like opening their relationship or they're doing things like this. And if you waited until you're 25, no matter if you stay together or not.

Nicole [00:38:29]: Yeah.

John [00:38:29]: Or if you're with your soul mate or not, if you give yourself enough time, because that's also when your brain fully develops. Is that 25?

Nicole [00:38:36]: Yeah. Yeah.

John [00:38:37]: So I think you can make a lot. Oh, yeah. For a minute it's like 43. But, you know, I think 25 is a good age because you're still young.

Nicole [00:38:51]: Okay.

John [00:38:51]: But your brain is fully developed, and you've also gone through a lot of things.

Nicole [00:38:56]: Yeah.

John [00:38:57]: And if you're still together.

Nicole [00:38:58]: Yeah.

John [00:38:59]: You can handle that. You know, and then now you're in a place that you guys both probably figured out your career, even whether you stayed together or not.

Nicole [00:39:07]: Yeah.

John [00:39:07]: Or you at least know more about who you are. I'm not saying that you don't figure that out, but I just think that it's a better recipe because there becomes all these questions that you never got answered because you never had the opportunity.

Nicole [00:39:23]: Well, here's the thing. Okay. I can see. I mean, there's some things that I think make more sense than that and some that don't. And it's such a complicated topic. Right. Because the first thing I would say is comparison is the theft of joy. Having less things to compare to equals more joy. Ignorance is less to a degree. Right. So many times the things that actually ruin relationships are comparison. And if you don't have comparison, you may be better off in many cases. Some people, ideally, if you meet your person and you're the only people you've ever been with, and that's. That's ideal. It's not practical in most cases, especially the way society is today, but that's. That would be a good thing if that were something, but it's not. It's so rare and so unreliable that you can't really count on that. Right.

John [00:40:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:26]: So second to that, I agree with not being too young. Well, here's what I would say. There is a big difference for men and women. I always tell guys. In fact, I was talking to a guy. You saw the interview I did with the Catholic guy, and he was like, men should get married young and women should get married young. And I was like, for men. Let me tell you why that's not. Ideally, I understand what you're saying. And just like I said, hey, if you're the first people that you've ever been Together with. And you don't have comparison. That's a good thing. But that's not practical. But what is practical is for men. Men, I tell guys, do not get into an exclusive relationship until you're at least 30. Now, I know that seems extreme, but let me say why date? Get experience with women. There's two main reasons why.

John [00:41:17]: What if you meet your soulmate, though?

Nicole [00:41:18]: Well, then, you know, obviously I'm not, I'm giving guidelines, right? You got to use your own judgment. If you meet your soulmate and you're. No. And you know this and you're sure about it, don't, don't listen to John. Tell John to go, you know, because you, you got it figured out that you can make that decision, right? But in general, most men are not going to have the knowledge to even evaluate that unless they have experience. Men are supposed to be the leaders. It's better if a man has more experience, understands the world better, that a woman can look up to him. It will create a better dynamic in relationship to begin with. He should be older as well. That's preferable. Again, it doesn't mean like something's messed up if your relationship is the opposite way, it can still work out. I'm just saying these are ideal conditions, right? So a guy being five, 10 years older is good. So if a guy is in his 30s or 40s and then he marries a girl that's 10 years earlier. So then what can happen is he can lead their relationship because he's got the experience to do that. A man that is 19 or 20, it's different for a man and a woman because the woman is not expected to lead that relationship and to have the experience and wisdom to be able to guide the other person, right? Not to discredit a woman, Obviously her intuition and her feminine attributes are very valuable, but they don't require as much time to develop in worldly experience as a man's do. And so if a man gets married at 19 or 20, heck, I got married at 21, I can tell you I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I didn't have a clue what. I was very successful in terms of my career and smart and had my ducks in a row in that way. But compared to what I know now and what I understand now and the wisdom that I have now, I can't believe I could even function right. So I couldn't lead anyone, I couldn't lead myself. And I was more capable than just about any 21 year old who I had My head screwed on straight. Right. So I'm just saying I didn't learn all those lessons. So a man trying to lead at that young of an age, it's just going to be a disaster, especially in the world that we live in. And so a man does need to wait and needs to gain experience. And that's why I say that he shouldn't even get into an exclusive relationship because he doesn't want to create those connections and trap himself into a situation where he's going to get married because it always leads to that direction. It should be. And so he should just casually date and focus on his career and developing himself. And then when he hits his 30s, then he starts looking. And then he finds a woman that is younger that will look up to him. And it's not as critical for her to have as much life experience because he's going to, if he's successful and he understands how the world works, he can create a successful environment for her and take care of her financially and lead her. She just has to trust him if she trusts him. Because if you find a man that you can put all your trust in and be feminine with, then you don't have to worry about those other things. And sometimes also for women. We talked about this too. On the sexual side of things that a man's sexual experience has a scale from realistically 4 to 10. Because there's nothing below a 4. Right. But a woman has zero. Yeah. A woman has zero.

John [00:44:44]: Zero, zero.

Nicole [00:44:45]: Right. Or maybe even negative one right. To a thousand.

John [00:44:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:48]: And so a man having a more experience, it doesn't create as much of a comparison theft of joy situation. It can, but it doesn't necessarily. But a woman, if a woman has had more experience and she's hit some 800-00, you know, and then. But those were people who are not a good person for her to be with. And then she meets her soulmate and it's more of a 10 or a.

John [00:45:18]: 15 or that's not her soulmate, then.

Nicole [00:45:21]: Well, I, I agree with you. That's probably not the case. But it can create an issue there where that could be a comparison situation that is not, not good. So it's so complicated.

John [00:45:33]: Well, here's what I think about the woman's side.

Nicole [00:45:35]: Okay.

John [00:45:35]: Because it's a little bit different than what you. You're saying. I understand what you're saying, and I agree.

Nicole [00:45:41]: Yeah.

John [00:45:41]: Like, I don't think anybody, man or woman, needs to just go out and just hook up with people so that they have. They know what their scale they're working with.

Nicole [00:45:50]: Right.

John [00:45:51]: But I do still think women should get married around 25. And here's why, okay? Because I feel like I've also always said this as well, too, that a woman needs to go out on her own and do things on her own, because otherwise she won't feel like she can. And she has to prove that to herself. She has to prove that she can do things on her own and that she's capable of being on her own so she's not codependent, so that she doesn't get stuck in bad situations with bad men. So she knows that if she does get in one of those situations, she can leave and she can figure it out on her own because she did it before. I think that's very important. And I also think that's very important because the second she gives in to the right man and trusts him to lead her, you will know it's because she's actually trusting in you. Because it takes a lot for a woman to give up her way of doing things. Her, you know, proving to herself that she can do these things and hand it all over to you. I don't think men really realize. Well, to be honest, not a lot of people are in our situation where there's a sole provider and then, you know, the woman stays at home. There are some, but there's not a lot. But I don't think men realize that if you have a woman that is fully investing in you and fully trusting you to lead the relationship, and men can still lead even in 50, 50 or whatever dynamic, but it's harder, right? Because she has more responsibility, so she should get more input. But unless she has that baseline to be like, I can do this. I actually like doing. Like, I like proving to myself that I can be on my own. And you know that I have these options, right? And she gives that all up for you to put her trust in you and have you now lead her life, yeah, that means more. And she needs that. She needs that because otherwise she won't have anything. Yes, comparison is the theft of joy. But when you're single, man or woman, and someone comes along and they're even better than your single life where you can do whatever you want because you don't have anybody else to say anything to, you can come home and do whatever you want, but being with someone else and sharing your life with someone else is better than that. You know that that is the relationship you should be in. And that comparison is vital. And a lot of people don't have that.

Nicole [00:48:31]: Right.

John [00:48:32]: Or something has messed that up. Right. Or, like, they're either codependent and they're just hopping from one relationship to the next because they can't be alone. And so the relationship's also not healthy because they can't be alone. So they're gonna do whatever they need to do in that situation not be alone. Right. Or, you know, they're so perpetually single, like, they don't want to give up their single ways. Right. That's also not the way to be.

Nicole [00:49:00]: Right.

John [00:49:02]: And they don't fully invest because they're afraid. And that's a whole nother, like, area with that. But if the right person came along and they. They took the leap of faith. Right? Because some people are single. And that's why, too. Like, 25. It's like, I'm not saying you have to do that, but I'm saying that's enough time where you've gotten out of college or whatever you're doing, or you're in your career, and so you've gotten kind of established on your own, or you've gotten more into your career and you've gotten more confidence in yourself that when somebody comes along and they're like, you know, I want to be with you. I want to lead our relationship and take care of you and all these things, if they're the right person, you'll be like, okay, I will. I will give up my independence of, you know, the security that I gave myself for. Your security, you're going to give me, and that's a big deal. Like, yeah, a lot of people don't. Don't realize that. And I do think women need that to compare against. Right. Like, I think that it's not about even, like, the sex. I think it's about, you know, that doing it on your own and giving up that independence for something better enough.

Nicole [00:50:20]: That you can do it on your own, or you have, and you have something to actually give up.

John [00:50:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:50:28]: I'm not needy. Dependent on you, and I have a sacrifice to make that compares it to.

John [00:50:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:50:37]: You convinced me. Yeah. You convinced me. It makes sense. What you're saying makes sense. Yeah. I revise my. My statement. It makes sense. 25. For women. It makes sense. Right?

John [00:50:47]: That's still.

Nicole [00:50:48]: It doesn't mean.

John [00:50:48]: But it doesn't mean.

Nicole [00:50:50]: It doesn't mean, hold up from 20 to 25.

John [00:50:52]: No, I'm not saying.

Nicole [00:50:53]: It doesn't mean that you have to be a virgin from 20 to 25 either. It just means that you.

John [00:50:59]: If you're Going to date. Date with intention. Because, like, you can still have. Find your soulmate at 23.

Nicole [00:51:06]: Sure.

John [00:51:07]: But just wait till 25.

Nicole [00:51:08]: Right.

John [00:51:09]: And then figure again. And it doesn't have to be right at 25. Like, I'm just saying that around that area because, like, we met when I was, like, 28, about to be 29.

Nicole [00:51:18]: Right.

John [00:51:18]: And so, like, it doesn't have to be right at 25, but it has to be as a woman, where you have felt some sort of independence or some sort of. I can do this on my own.

Nicole [00:51:30]: Right.

John [00:51:31]: And when that person comes along where you're like, you know what? This is better than that.

Nicole [00:51:35]: Right.

John [00:51:36]: And men should have that too.

Nicole [00:51:37]: Right.

John [00:51:37]: Like, because it's. It's very important, but.

Nicole [00:51:39]: Right.

John [00:51:40]: I also don't want women to watch this and be like, oh, well, you know, I just have to be really young. Right. Like, because that's also what gets people in these situations is, like, they don't have certain knowledge, right. And they just get married, and then they start thinking about it, and then they think more about it, and then now they're coming to you and like, hey, you want to open the relationship. You know what I mean? Or, like. Or some other thing that is going to impact your relationship. And I think another thing I wanted to bring up without going on too long is that you said. What did you say? I got to dig in my brain for it. Oh, you said that. You know, they think this is a good idea, opening the relationship, because they're looking like, okay, well, they didn't have all this experience. They didn't get to do all these things. And you called it naive, and it is naive. But it's also like looking at the past and not the future. Because if you're just looking at the past and being like, oh, I understand. Like, you can understand, but realize that you're not looking at the future. They're not looking at the future. They're not looking at what the future of their relationship is going to look.

Nicole [00:52:50]: What's it gonna be like five years from now?

John [00:52:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:52]: Right. Because the old is going to get new, and the change that you've made is not going to unchange.

John [00:52:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:52:59]: Meaning that it might be fun for a few years to go and experiment with other people if you're in that situation, but eventually that will get old because that can't stay exciting and new forever and now.

John [00:53:14]: And you can't go back to just the regular right now.

Nicole [00:53:16]: You can't ever go back to that. Never. Can you have that Intimacy. A million wicked thoughts will be going through your brain.

John [00:53:23]: Then you'll start having freak offs and a thousand bottles of baby oil.

Nicole [00:53:27]: A million jealous thoughts that even if you tried to go back and like, okay, we're not doing that anymore, now we're just exclusive to each other. You're going to wonder about every sexual experience your partner had.

John [00:53:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:37]: That never going to wonder. Were any better than what you guys have had. Were. What things did you do that you didn't do with me? Like all kinds of.

John [00:53:47]: It's just, that's human nature. Right. Like you said, like.

Nicole [00:53:50]: Yeah.

John [00:53:51]: Nobody would not feel those things. Like they might act like they wouldn't, but they would. Like this is a person that you care about deeply.

Nicole [00:54:00]: Yeah.

John [00:54:01]: Even if you're not intimate as deeply as you were, you care. And so those thoughts will come up no matter who you are and no matter how much you shove them down. Yeah, they're going to come up.

Nicole [00:54:12]: I was also going to say about the, what you said because you did convince me on the 25, I think that makes sense. Because if I think about it too, if I had a guy that I was coaching that was, let's say 30 and he was like, I'm going to marry this girl. She's 20 or 21. I'd be like, good luck with that. Right. But if she's 25, I'm like, okay, she's got a good head on her shoulders. She has a high desire for you. She treats you like a king. Right. But if she's 20, 21, 22, 23, I'm starting to. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that at that point I'm going to question the guy harder. Right. Because I'm going to be like, are you sure about this? Like, are you sure sure that she is sure? Because she's more of a wild card. She's 25. Older than 25. And again, also with the UN. Not uncomfortable with the, the not pretty part of this is that we know that a man's options are widest if he takes care of himself and is successful beyond 30. Right. In his 20s, they're narrower. Right. So that's why it's optimal for a man. And the woman's options. Right. Are wider around, you know, let's say from 22 to 26, 27, that's where the widest is. Right. It diminishes over time. Right. It's no secret. It doesn't devalue a woman. But it's just, hey, if you're Looking to have the widest number of guys that be interested in you. It's going to be in that typical age range for most people. Right. Not to say that you can't be successful afterwards, but if you're trying to optimize and ideal, then it fits your equation. Right? That number fits your equation nicely.

John [00:56:02]: It's because men don't mature for way longer and it's because women look more youthful, you know, which is not everything.

Nicole [00:56:11]: It's not everything, no.

John [00:56:12]: But like I was thinking about this when you were explaining like getting married at like 19 or even 21. I can't see no offense a woman having respect for their husband at 20 or 21. Because men at that age don't typically act in a way that garners respect. Right. So she's grown up with you, right, acting like a 19, 21 year old.

Nicole [00:56:45]: Exactly.

John [00:56:46]: And then now you're getting more mature. But she's seen you back when you were not the furthest from mature. And so that does influence people. So I agree that it's better to find a man that's older because he is probably more mature. You're not going to look at him and be like, God, he's still a 19 year old inside. And to be honest, like a lot of men do take a long time to mature and it's not attractive to women especially because women mature faster and they typically do get their stuff together. I'm not saying all do.

Nicole [00:57:21]: Right.

John [00:57:23]: But they typically try to get their ducks in a row. And so when they come across a man that's immature, that's an instant turn off. It doesn't matter what he looks like, doesn't matter what he does.

Nicole [00:57:35]: Right.

John [00:57:36]: Instant turnoff. So if you're getting married as a man, when you're immature, your wife is not really going to have a lot of respect for you. Yeah, she can get it, you know, when you become more mature and things like that. But at the same time, you've been together since you were really immature, right? Yeah, she's going to have those memories of that.

Nicole [00:57:56]: Exactly, yeah.

John [00:57:57]: And everybody has their moments where they're immature. Like I'm not trying to sit here and act like we're never immature, but it is less. It's not as much of a problem if you don't have those instances of like thinking back to when he was 19 and he like, you know, got a bunch of credit card debt like and because he bought five Xboxes to play with his bros or something. You know what I mean? Like you'll have those memories that you might reflect on, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you've genuinely grown to respect your husband. Yeah, but guys getting married young, the woman's not going to respect you.

Nicole [00:58:35]: That's the thing. That's why it is better if he's older. If he, if he's developed himself and has become mature and established himself. Well, that's why.

John [00:58:44]: And older women too. Like I say older, but like 23 or 20 or 25. Yeah, right. And onward. They also will respect men more.

Nicole [00:58:56]: Right?

John [00:58:56]: Because if you went to like a college and talked to a 20 year old, they're probably still in that defiant, almost teenager stage where they're like, don't tell me what to do. Right, Right. Like, so is that, that's also not the time to be marrying a woman. And like even if you're in a relationship and she can be more, the more mature one, like there's also still a part of her that's still kind of immature. Obviously it's the 25s when our brains start developing. Right. I'm not saying it's instant switch, but most people will tell you women will be like, yeah, at 25, I felt different. Like it's not a huge difference, but there is a difference. Like do you want like men talk about these? Oh, I got like this 20 year old at the bar, like, okay, cool. Like she probably just wanted to use you for some reason because she's still in that immature, just got out of high school, wants to like party. Which I'm not saying is the right thing to do either, but I'm saying it's so tempting to her because she's still in that mentality.

Nicole [01:00:00]: Right.

John [01:00:00]: Whereas when she's out of college or like if she starts her career and she's few years into her career, she's getting more serious. She has to be because she's out on her own, she's figuring out life. So that's why by that 25, you're going to have a different woman than you would at 20. Even if it's the same exact woman.

Nicole [01:00:18]: Right? Yeah, it's more risky. Like I would say if I was coaching a guy to be getting into a serious relationship with a woman, especially to MARRY that's under 25, just because a lot more can change in that time frame. Whereas by 25 she might be, if she's solid, then she's more likely to stay solid. Right. Maybe you have this super mature 21 or 22 year old. You know, if that's the case, and that's the exception. Right, right. But, you know, like you said, you'll.

John [01:00:48]: Know if there's an exception to the rule. Yeah, things like that. Is there any. We went on.

Nicole [01:00:53]: We went a little tangent, but I mean, it kind of.

John [01:00:55]: It goes with it.

Nicole [01:00:56]: Right. Because the thing is, is that opening the relationship for any reason is the death of that relationship. Can you have a different kind of relationship? Yes. Will it probably eventually unravel in the future? Yeah, that's what all the statistics say anyway.

John [01:01:17]: I can't see it. Not unless you. You're just committed to having an open relationship or swinging for the rest of your guy's life. Which old people do. Right. A lot of old people are swingers.

Nicole [01:01:28]: But at that point, they have. It's not. I think a lot of times is because they have not worked on the relationship, they've just sort of stayed together and given up. In many cases, they might have a love for each other, but it's not. The thing is, if you want a truly intimate relationship, you cannot open it. And I guess the thing that I think is most important is if you are in the situation and you have something that's good already, don't mess. Because it's hard enough to find that, especially if you're the only person you've been with. You guys got together young and you have a good relationship, don't mess with that. Because whatever you're doing is going to be worse than what you, you know, you're taking a huge gamble for no return, no payoff. Right. Because you already. If you don't have it and you've been together since you're young, then sure. Then I think maybe you need to start thinking about things. I mean, I would still say get a divorce. Well, I would still say, hey, you got that much time in together, you've only been with each other. See what you can, like, see if you can make the relationship that you have into what you want it to be.

John [01:02:45]: Put the effort, obviously.

Nicole [01:02:46]: And if you can't, then, yeah, then maybe then you say, okay, but you get a divorce, you do something, you don't open it and then create all kinds of hurt and problems. And then kids. And we didn't even talk about that.

John [01:02:59]: I know. I'm like, should we do a part.

Nicole [01:03:01]: Two after the kids are grown up?

John [01:03:03]: You could say, but I don't even know if they have kids. But if they're not, you want your kids to find out because everything done in the dark comes to light. Isn't that right, P. Diddy? But, like, you want your kids to find out that, like, they thought their parents had such a nice marriage, and then they find out, whenever they find out that they were swinging with other people, like, they're not going to believe in love.

Nicole [01:03:26]: Yeah. And look, my. My. Someone messaged me today when I was doing a. A sales call for. Or proposition for a sales call for my retirement, you know, early retirement program. And they're like, what. What are your. Oh, no, no, actually, it wasn't that. It was actually for relationship coaching. And he said, what are your credentials or background? You know, like. Like, you know, he wasn't saying it in a mean way. He just was. And I was like, well, I was like, there was a school that I went to. You probably heard of the school. It's called the school of hard knocks. I was like, that's where a lot of it is. And that's what I would say about this is like, I've been through situations similar. And I can tell you that all the stuff that I say on this podcast, because a lot of people judge me and they're like, well, you did this, like, you. You cheated. You. You had an unsuccessful relationship. You, you know, whatever, and they list all the things, or, oh, you just had a. An issue. You and Nicole had to fight the other, you know, week, or what? And. And my answer is that. Yeah, that's why I'm. I'm telling you.

John [01:04:33]: Because you've learned from those things.

Nicole [01:04:35]: Yeah, because I've, like, this is why I have these strong opinions on these things, is because I figured out what does not work.

John [01:04:42]: Right.

Nicole [01:04:43]: And I've learned the pain of it.

John [01:04:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:45]: And so. And you. You as well. And so that's why it's like, yeah, you know, you can do this.

John [01:04:53]: People want to act like they're looking for people who've never made a mistake or never done anything. They're never going to find those people because the people they admire, business people, whoever, they've all made mistakes.

Nicole [01:05:05]: Right.

John [01:05:06]: So if they want to cut us out of what they believe is true because we've made mistakes, let them go searching for the fountain of youth that doesn't exist. Let them go searching for perfection that doesn't exist.

Nicole [01:05:18]: And you find someone who hasn't made mistakes, it's. The answer is yet.

John [01:05:24]: Right.

Nicole [01:05:24]: And so it's coming.

John [01:05:25]: Well, I don't even think you can find someone that hasn't made mistakes, but.

Nicole [01:05:28]: I'm just saying, like, the. The things, you know, it's coming.

John [01:05:32]: It's. Yeah, you're gonna fall Into a pit you can't escape. Can't escape the mistakes.

Nicole [01:05:37]: Yeah.

John [01:05:37]: But, yeah, maybe we'll have to do a part two, because that is, I mean.

Nicole [01:05:42]: Well, I'm sure we'll stir up some debate on the, on the topic, so. But it is something. I mean, it's an interesting.

John [01:05:47]: I don't even know how you can debate what we said. We. We've covered so many.

Nicole [01:05:51]: There's some people on the other side of that obviously. Right. That.

John [01:05:55]: Yeah, I mean, I'd want to hear their perspective.

Nicole [01:05:57]: Yeah. Because it makes sense when you tell it a certain way.

John [01:06:01]: Right.

Nicole [01:06:01]: But I think when you think through all the details like we did and you think about the future, then you realize how flawed that thinking is. That it does not.

John [01:06:10]: It's the lack of future thinking that I don't think people get in this instance. Because that's what you have to look at, right? Because the past is gone, the present, you're doing the stuff, like obviously that matters, but because you can choose not to do it right now in the present, but if you keep doing it, you have to look at the future like, what is this going to cause to happen? And it's a lot of messy things, not a lot of good things.

Nicole [01:06:38]: Well, and look, here's. I think here's something also that is super important and we're running out of time, but because again, I coach a lot of guys, by the way, if you want guy, you want some coaching, choose the email betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com but one of the things that is very clear in regards to sex is that what makes the best sex, is it a technique? Is it. I'm not saying that those things aren't important at all. Right. As a master of the techniques. But what is the most important thing?

John [01:07:14]: The connection, the intimacy?

Nicole [01:07:16]: That's the most important thing, right? Every coaching client of mine, that guy that I've talked to, that's like, oh, it's crazy. It's the best I've ever had. You know, it's like, she's the best she's ever had. What makes it different is that you have that strong connection. You've built the relationship. Right? So if you're going out there looking for sex thinking that you're going to get some variety or something better than what you've got, you're looking in the wrong direction because those are going to be. I'm not saying you can't have a good experience. Sure you could. But if you want the best, it's going to be one where there's a strong degree of intimacy that's been built up and continue to invest in, because that creates the best.

John [01:08:03]: Right.

Nicole [01:08:04]: So don't. If you've got that, don't throw it away. Not for. You got a steak dinner. Do not go and go to Subway like we talked about.

John [01:08:16]: Don't go to Subway.

Nicole [01:08:17]: Stupid, Right? It's stupid. Like, it doesn't. Yeah, but it is stupid.

John [01:08:21]: And also, too. This is just kind of like a general psychology, spiritual, whatever you want to call it, thing. When you have something good like that and you start having all these questions pop up instead. Like write down the things you're grateful for in your relationship, because then those questions will go away because you'll realize what you have right now, and you'll realize that even if you're curious about something because you got married young or whatever.

Nicole [01:08:54]: Yeah.

John [01:08:55]: If you look at the things that you appreciate in your relationship and you have a really good relationship, you won't think about those things, or at least not as much where then you want to act on them. Right.

Nicole [01:09:07]: Hey, when I go to a restaurant, a lot of restaurants, I have my favorite meal. I order that meal every time. I don't sit there and look at the menu and say, I need to order everything on this menu just to make sure. Yeah, it's already my favorite thing.

John [01:09:21]: But you might want to try two or three. But that's why I'm saying try two or three in the beginning. Then you'll know.

Nicole [01:09:27]: Sure. Then. Then I. I could give you that. But. Yeah, you know, too. But you don't have to try everything on the menu if you have something that you like. That's the thing, is that discontent. People are discontented because they think that they are missing out. That FOMO is one of the worst things that sends you on the path of destruction. That is not. That's true. Because when you try to find the thing that you feel like you're missing, you lose what you have.

John [01:09:53]: Right.

Nicole [01:09:53]: And that's.

John [01:09:54]: And then you'll really be sad.

Nicole [01:09:56]: Yeah. Was a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

John [01:10:02]: I've vaguely heard that.

Nicole [01:10:04]: Chasing those bushes. Get out of the bushes. You got. You don't need to be in the bushes.

John [01:10:09]: Get out of the bushes. All right. We should probably get to the end. Yeah. And it's your turn. But I just want to say that John jinxed us.

Nicole [01:10:18]: Okay. So I jinxed us because I.

John [01:10:22]: He's not allowed to see that.

Nicole [01:10:24]: We don't even have the award anymore. It's.

John [01:10:28]: We don't even have the award anymore because.

Nicole [01:10:32]: And I have to apologize for yawning so much in the last. I.

John [01:10:37]: You can't tell. Cuts to the.

Nicole [01:10:39]: Okay, I didn't do on purpose, but I was yawning. So Nicole was insulted by the. The yawning. Again, not something I was purposely doing. But we got knowledge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we got into, you know, the. I don't know, more.

John [01:11:02]: The crazy cycle.

Nicole [01:11:03]: Yeah, the crazy cycle. And. Yeah. And we both got. And not super, super far into it, but far enough. But.

John [01:11:13]: Well, yeah, it got to. It got far enough in that I started getting defensive again. And then I went back to my response. Right. Like that I had before. That wasn't a good response. And so I think you got scared and you felt betrayed.

Nicole [01:11:30]: Yeah.

John [01:11:30]: Because you were like, what if she was just lying this whole time? But really I just made a mistake because I was trying not to get defensive for so long in that conversation.

Nicole [01:11:39]: Yeah.

John [01:11:40]: But I did get to a point where, like, I just got frustrated and then I started being defensive. Right. Which wasn't the right thing to do because I'm still responsible for my actions. And I don't want you to feel like I lied to you or, you know, like, was pretending or whatever, but instead of, like, stopping, which is hard for me, like, and to just turn it, do like a U turn, you know, like, just U turn right now, Nicole, you can just U turn right here. I have to go all the way to the, you know, 10 miles down the road, then turn back. So, you know, that cross, not good.

Nicole [01:12:16]: The St. Pete. The bridge into St. Pete, which hopefully.

John [01:12:20]: Is still there for their hurricane. But. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I got across the long bridge because there's no way to turn around because I'm on the bridge. But that's not the way to be either. But that's just when I get into that defensive, like, stubborn mode, it's like, that's what my brain wants to do. But.

Nicole [01:12:37]: Yeah, and I think I was overreactive to a degree because you had just made this shift and change. And so I was very scared to lose that because in the past, I had had rug pulls where I was very disappointed. And that was what I was just sad because I was like, I feel like I got rug pulled. Even though that's not the case. You know, I was hyper vigilant around that area. So. But since then, I've really. I've realized that, no, this is a permanent thing. Like, you really do understand me and what we talked about, and mistakes may happen. But it's not a need to panic and go into a protective what you have mode, which is where. And I just realized that we were just talking on the way here that I just realized recently, I was like, you know, I've been taking things just in general a lot more seriously than I normally do life and becoming more insulted by things or, you know, and that comes from a fear of. Of, like. Of not having the security and stability and safety that we have. But now that I know it and it's so reinforced, I can let go of that and just be chill about stuff that's not a big deal. It doesn't like, you know, it doesn't have to be a reactive thing or something. That every little slight that I perceive is critical. You know what I mean? Which. That's how I've kind of been operating sometimes, because I've been worried about, you know, those things. But, you know, I can rest on what I know. I know how you feel about me. I know how much you respect me. I know how much what kind of person you are. Right. All those things. And so it's sort of like you had a thing where you took the thing weight off of your shoulders. Right? And now I feel like that's the weight off of my shoulders. That. To go back to that, because that's how I used to be. And then I think with all the stuff that's happened in my life, somehow I got lost from that and started taking offense of things that I shouldn't take offense.

John [01:15:04]: Well, it's not hard to do because when we were talking about was interesting, because I think that I was. When we were talking about it, I told you too, that I think that's why sometimes we have a hard time communicating because we're acting like it's not a safe space. Right. And it's from our past where it wasn't safe. Like, I can understand why it would upset you so much that you thought I changed because I said these things to you and then I made a mistake and it made me feel like you. I was lying to you or something because you actively experienced those things in your previous relationship. And my, like, fears of why it's not safe stem from my past and not from you specifically. And so when you mention that, I think it's good to recognize that your relationship is safe and that you are safe and that sometimes we act from a place when we weren't safe, and we're kind of bringing that into the safe space. Right. Like, and it's understandable because it was a big deal. And it hurt you in that moment when it happened, and you're afraid of that happening again. But you have to come back to the present and be like, that's not this situation. That's not what's happening right now. And eventually that gets easier with time because you just have the time to now realize you are safe and you get more evidence. Right. Of that. But sometimes we still go back to our fears and we get nervous and we feel unsafe, but we don't realize we are safe. And I'm sure we'll have to do a whole episode on that sort of experience, too.

Nicole [01:16:47]: And it's stuff also, I guess we get. But as a man, because I was talking to some of my coaching clients too, and. And it's. As a man, you do have to recognize that women are going to go through emotional extremes and you can't react to those. You can help turn them around sometimes, but it's not critical. DEF CON Station 5 Sometimes when you think that it might be, which is hard for. For a man, because we're wired a different way, we think, okay, if this thing is happening or this way is felt or this is what it is. Whereas emotions, emotional states for women are more fluid. And that's the thing as a man to realize, like, okay, let's not get. Let's not get offended by this emotional state that a woman's in right now. Right? Let this pass.

John [01:17:48]: Sometimes women are offensive with their emotions.

Nicole [01:17:52]: Right.

John [01:17:52]: But sometimes they're not. And it can still feel offensive. Right. And so, like, trying not to take things personally, especially if someone's trying to delicately tell you something, is hard to do, especially with someone you're really intimate with. But, I mean, I also should do the same thing, you know, so, yeah, it's.

Nicole [01:18:15]: It's a learning process. So. All right, well, that's it for.

John [01:18:19]: Leave us a review, please.

Nicole [01:18:21]: Thank you. Yeah, we still have banana fingers after all this time, but, I mean, we love you. Banana fingers, but, you know, but we need something new. Itunes. It's not itunes anymore. Apple podcasts. Right. But yeah, and if you do want to be on the podcast and sit right here and talk to us, or.

John [01:18:40]: If you have any situation too, you want us to talk about specifically, we could do a whole episode.

Nicole [01:18:45]: Episode, yeah, on that. You're gotta be in San Diego if you want to be on the podcast. Just email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com and if you are a man and you want some relationship coaching, I am offering that now, again, you can just email us@betterthenperfectpodcastmail.com that's it. All right, see you next time.

John [01:19:08]: Through every fault we find.

Nicole [01:19:11]: No way.