John: But you don't have to try everything on the menu if you have something that you like. People are discontented because they think that they are missing out. When you try to find the thing that you feel like you're missing, you lose what you have, right? And then you'll really be sad.

Nicole: Yeah, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I've vaguely heard that. Chasing those bushes... Get out of the bushes. You don't need to be in the bushes. Get out of the bushes. Beyond the perfect, we discovered through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. Every time I looked at you, you looked away, and every time I looked away, you looked at me.

John: It's because we're professionals. That's why it is.

Nicole: Right. After you've done 47 episodes, you're a professional.

John: I mean, I kind of felt more like a Chuck-E-Cheese animatronic, like going back and forth.

Nicole: Yeah, but we won't dive more into the P. Diddy thing because we could, but we can't.

John: No, it's dangerous. It's dangerous at this point. There's too much connection. People be saying a lot of stuff. So, some of these people are like acting like he isn't allegedly killing people.

Nicole: Isn't allegedly or is like he isn't allegedly killing people because they're just talking all kinds of stuff publicly.

John: Yeah, I'm a little afraid because obviously, there's a web here. Like, it's not just him. There's a web. There are things happening.

Nicole: Just like Pharrell making a Lego children's movie to tell his life story that we saw last night when we went to see Beetlejuice.

John: Oh, that's the thing. It's Beetlejuice 2.

Nicole: Not to spoil it, but man...

John: Don't spoil it.

Nicole: I'm not going to spoil it. Just... it sucks. It's not good. Like, Beetlejuice was not Beetlejuice, you know?

John: Well, that's why you have to say why. Because he was like, he's also 70, what, three? We looked it up.

Nicole: Yeah, the actor, 73. And which I give him that, but he just... it just... they could have had someone else play the role if he couldn't really do the role. Because, you know, his Beetlejuice was not the original Beetlejuice. He got better towards... I can't even do it now. I'm on the camera. You did a good last night.

John: I did a good last night. Oh, you can't do it because you're on camera.

Nicole: Yeah, I don't know, something like that. It's hard to do it on... just want an excuse to do your Beetlejuice impression.

John: Yeah, everyone's like, that Beetlejuice impression sucks. But that's... no, you can do a good one.

Nicole: I can. I can. You're like, it's possible. Next time Tim Burton calls, John, on a mission to do Beetlejuice. Well, then also, like, you know, again, I don't think this is a spoiler per se, but is it when Beetlejuice comes out, what does Beetlejuice say?

John: Oh, It's Showtime, right?

Nicole: He did not say that in the movie.

John: He said... I don't know what he said. Do you even remember what he said?

Nicole: But it wasn't It's Showtime.

John: They didn't say It's Showtime.

Nicole: Yeah, it was just one of... I forget what he said.

John: So disappointed. I mean, it's just... I think they tried to get as many of the old people just to like make people feel nostalgic. And I do think they did a good job, like we were talking about last night, where they didn't make it too like 2024 with like a lot of the AI and the influencer and TikTok. Like, at one point they did, but I didn't mind that as much because they tried to make it more old school. Like even the beginning credits, I like that it was...

Nicole: Giving like Hocus Pocus credits was the best part. The '90s, you know, movies that are...

John: Yeah, you were like, I love this font. The font...

Nicole: Yeah, it was... yeah, that's... I would have left for the font, but... But I would have left after the beginning credits if I...

John: Yeah, I mean, it had no plot. The story was meh. It was just like a money... they were trying to do too much at one time because there's like multiple things happening at one time, and a lot of them kind of just... just dropped off. Like, they didn't explain them very well. But, I mean, it's still Beetlejuice, so it was like good. And I liked seeing all the old people, you know, doing the stuff again. Because I'm sure it's really hard to get people to come back. Like, you were talking about what the dad...

Nicole: Oh yeah, I forgot to look that up to see why it was he wasn't there. I mean, he... I don't know, maybe he died. I don't know, maybe potentially. But yeah, so... but you should go see it just to like, just to throw your own two cents in there if like Beetlejuice... wait till it...

John: Comes out on...

Nicole: Yeah, I guess you do that and watch it when you're busy doing something else, like putting together some Walmart furniture or something.

John: Gosh, don't spend the whole two hours. You're just too nice, you know. You're a harsh critic. You're like, I should be a movie critic. Last night, if it's... it's not... you know, it's not Top Gun 2.

Nicole: Top Gun 2, well, you know, that's... there's really no other... that's how you do a sequel, especially that after so many... far, yeah, that's how you do it. Top Gun 2, one of the best movies ever made, period. That's the only one, though, that I feel like the second one coming out so far in between was actually really, really, really good. Normally it's not so...

John: Yeah, Matrix 4, please don't even...

Nicole: Matrix, uh... I don't even... I forgot we saw that in the theaters, and I can't remember what it was about. It was a meta... it was just dumb. I don't even remember what the actual... it was just dumb. Dumb, horrible. So, with that, what do you have for us today? What is the topic?

John: This topic is a little niche.

Nicole: Okay, for sure. We were hanging out with some of our friends, and they were talking about this sort of topic because they know some people. I love that you said Niche instead of Niche.

John: Is Niche the correct pronunciation?

Nicole: Potato, potato.

John: No, Niche sounds better.

Nicole: I mean, so they were talking about this couple that had gotten together when they were really young and had only been with each other, right? And they've been married for like 20 years or something, and then now they've started, I guess, like essentially swinging, kind of like the Mormon wives or like open their relationship, right?

John: And I thought that was interesting because I can see where they're coming from, right? Like, they have...

John: No other experience with anybody else, they've gone all these years. And I can see where, even if they're still satisfied with their choice, there's probably these questions that they don't have answered. Like, what is it even like to be with other people? Are things drastically different than this or not? Is this as amazing as it seems, which maybe you don't want to find out the answer to that question. Which again is also why I'm like, that's still maybe not a good idea. There are so many layers to this, right? That's why I was like, this would be a good topic, even though it's very specific. There are so many layers because it's like, I get that you didn't have your phase where you went out and you were crazy and you experienced other people, and so you have these curiosities. But also, do you want to find out the answer to your questions? Because what if it's not going to make your relationship better? And then, like you said when we were kind of talking about it, we didn't talk in full length, obviously. But you were talking about how your relationship dynamic can't ever really go back.

Nicole: Exactly, yeah. And so that's also true. And it's like, is it worth it? I mean, we wouldn't know because we're not doing it. But I thought it would be a good topic to kind of dive into because there are so many layers of it.

John: Yeah, there is. So, I don't know what you would specifically call it, the topic, but I'm sure we'll figure that out. But at least now you have a full understanding, basically, of what I'm diving into.

Nicole: Yeah, that's a good one. There's so much to say on it. Oh wait, there's one more thing.

John: Oh yeah, go ahead.

Nicole: There's one more layer that I want to lay out here because I want to lay out all the layers, like an onion. Just call me Shrek over here. But the other layer that goes into this is that while they're hooking up with other people, they still have the security of a relationship, they still have the security of a marriage. And that, I feel like, is important because when you're in your wild and crazy phase when you're younger, whenever you go into that and you're single, you don't have that security. It's just these people. And like, people might not view it as security, they might actually like it because it's not an attachment. But at the same time, even if you're single and you're going out and you're dating multiple people and you're being with multiple people, I feel like as humans, we do have this desire to have somebody there, like no matter what, to support us and be there. So while they're doing all this, they have each other as a support system. Like, they have each other where it's like, "Oh, I go hook up with this person, it sucks, I can just go hook up with my husband later because I know that's going to be good," or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, they have that in the back burner. And at times, it's not even in the back burner because they're still married. They're still living their married life, I'm sure, to some degree, but then going out and hooking up with other people and then coming back home with each other.

John: Let me start with that one then because here's what I would say about that. I agree with you about having the security, that it's an important thing that changes. However, I would question, I would say, what gives you security in a relationship?

Nicole: You're asking me specifically?

John: I mean, I would say that it's like being yourself and knowing that the person that you chose to be with loves you no matter what and is going to stand by you.

Nicole: And how much security do you have in the relationship when you know that your partner is hooking up with other people that they may fall in love with?

John: Look, I agree with you, but they're both doing it. And so, I think that in a weird way because they're both doing it, they do still have that security. I don't know if that makes sense, but it does in my brain. I don't know how to describe it. It's like it almost cancels each other out. Because I agree, if like one of them was doing it, that's not... But the fact that both of them are doing it, it's like the security that both of you guys are doing this thing. And I'm sure they made some sort of agreement, maybe. I would think. I hope they're not going like total off the wall. You know, I think there's some sort of... Even the swingers on the Mormon wives had an agreement at first. And granted, they went off the wall, and they fell in love with each other, like you're saying. I'm not saying that doesn't even happen. I'm saying that you're right, that you greatly increase the risk of that happening because now you're being intimate with other people. And I mean, I would say that actually, if it's one person doing it, then you have more security. And I'll tell you why. So because if two people are doing it, it's twice the risk. And you have a person that knows that the other person's doing it, so then they're not as careful with not falling in love with someone else because they're like, "Well, they might be." So then, you're not as careful about it. You see what I'm saying? So I think you're just creating more... I think there's the illusion of security. But it's just like people today in society where they're like, "Oh well, I have a job, right? It's safe. I have a job, a nine to five." Whereas 50 years ago, having a job meant security. Today, no. They let you go; it's everyone's replaceable. Right? Everyone's replaceable. And so, I think it's a false sense of security. And you know, and I have some experience in this.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, I want to know how that felt, you know? Like because even if you consciously didn't really think about it, it is different. Like, it is different to go out and hook up with other people when you have someone else at home. You know what I mean? Like, even if consciously you're not thinking about it, I do feel like there is like a security blanket.

John: It's like, "Okay, I can go out and pick up this guy, right? And we could whatever, and if it sucks, I can go back to my husband, and you know, he still loves me." Like, you're not actively thinking that, right? But you are, in some degree, in the back of your mind. No matter what way you're thinking about it, it doesn't have to be exactly like what I just said.

Nicole: Right, right. There is some of like, "I can go and put myself out there, and it's not as scary because this person is at home waiting for me."

John: But why does that matter? Like, why would that be less scary?

Nicole: Well, because you have somebody that is going to be there for you, no matter what happens out in the real world. When you're out in the real world and you're single, and you really like somebody, and you're pursuing them, you don't have a backup plan. You don't have someone else that you care about that's going to be there if it doesn't.

John: It doesn't work out with this person. Does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. I still think that that's not really the thinking that you... Well, then what is the thinking? Because you know, but I'm just saying that it makes sense that people feel more secure in doing that. I would think like opening it up, even though I agree with you, it's never going to be a secure thing because you shouldn't open your relationship up, in my opinion. But yeah, there is a level to it that is what I'm talking about. It's such a false sense of security. That's what I'm saying. I mean, I can see that, right? Because I've coached a lot of guys, some guys that have been in some of these kinds of situations, and their sense of security was misplaced, especially when they had a one-sided, open-ended, agreed-upon relationship. And they thought, "Oh well, she's going to stick around, she's going to, you know." And that was not as she shouldn't, but that's not the case because that security was...

John: Misplaced. They're like, "Oh, we have such a good family and relationship and everything's going good, so we have the safety to be able to do this," which is, well, that logic makes zero sense.

Nicole: Yeah, but then why do people do it? Why do, again, men do it? A lot of times they're the ones with the one-sided open. How can they even, and even this couple we're talking about, both of them, how can you go out and be with other people and then come home and sleep in the bed with someone you married, or even be intimate with them? Like, that is just hard for me to wrap my head around.

John: Yeah, I mean, again, from experience. Was it episode four? If... Yeah, one of the early ones, but I won't go into all of the details, but for some of the details, I was married before. I did not end things in the proper way. I stepped outside of the marriage. There's a recap, again, the episode, we don't have time to get into all the details. No, I'm not condoning what I did or that kind of behavior. We know, but you know, I'm not also dooming someone to eternal damnation. They are unredeemable. There are circumstances, and there are different circumstances, but in my circumstance, I was fed up, done with the relationship, was looking for a way out. So in that case, it does create a different... It wasn't like I was bored, right? Uh, it wasn't like... Right. So it is different than what we're specifically talking about, but in that situation...

Nicole: What was going on for me, some of the things was there was a bit of the sewing the wild oats, not having a wild... You got married young, you know, like 'cause I got married at 21, and I'd only had one previous sexual partner. I'd never really dated or anything. So, but in that aspect, it is similar, is in that way. But the reason why I say that, you know, it's not as similar as it would appear at the surface, is that had I had a good relationship, had I had the relationship that we have, even if I hadn't sewn my wild oats, I wouldn't have felt compelled to do that.

John: Right, you think so? Like, really?

Nicole: Yeah, I know so. Because it was only because I had gone so many years, like 15 years or so, without thinking that, not that it wasn't ever in my head at all, but I was not going to execute it. It was not worth the risk. I was faithful and loyal to and committed to the decision I made to get married. 'Cause I knew that, hey, you go out to get some pizza, and there's another pizza parlor, but you've gone to this pizza parlor. You can eat the pizza that you got at that parlor. It's not... It's silly to just... John, examples. So in that situation, then that became, when you're not happy, then those things rise to the surface. There is also, in my case, a big insecurity around dating and women and being found attractive. And so I wanted to prove something to myself, to people who doubted me.

John: Right, but if you had a better relationship, you don't feel like you would have been insecure or anything like that?

Nicole: 'Cause yeah, I think it's important in a relationship for a relationship to be good for you to feel secure in your sexuality and that your partner is attracted to you and that you're attractive in general.

John: Right, I guess more so that like the partner creates that desire that you talk about.

Nicole: Yeah, because if you're getting that and you feel that sense of it, then you don't need to look elsewhere for it. And it manifests in various ways. Women, it manifests with their traps and things like that when they're in a relationship that's not... They're looking for outside attention. For men, it manifests in them going out and trying to pick up girls or in some way to have a fancy car or what, you know, to get the attraction. So yeah, so long story short, that's those are some of the other factors that were...

John: You know, but what about like, and I know that it's losing half your stuff, and you had a kid, and I get that.

Nicole: Yeah, but I guess I just don't get the point of going out and being with other people and then sleeping in the same bed as the person that you're doing, like you're married to, you know what I mean? Like, how does that not make somebody feel a certain type of way? Like even this couple, right? Like, how can you go out and sleep with other people and then get back in your bed and act like a married couple?

John: Yeah, it's weird, you know, switching the modes. I think it was a compartmentalization to a degree, right? Where you could be in like a family mode when you've been with someone for a very long time. You have a sort of companionship, friendship that is underlying the relationship, and that doesn't disappear just because you're unfaithful, you know, to be blunt.

Nicole: Well, you've been coexisting for so long that you can still coexist, right? And so it's kind of a weird thing. At some points, you're like, "Uh, this person is my friend." You know, you almost want to share your experience of what you're doing, which seems odd, right? You know, but these are the weird things that happen. But also, some of these hoops you have to jump through to do the kind of stuff that I did, where you have to compartmentalize things because you can't really deal with it. You know, like when you ask that question of like, how can you do this? You... Your psyche thinks about it because then you'll feel the guilt and the shame and all that stuff.

John: Yeah, your psyche is pushing it out. Like, it won't bring those two things in, right? Because what happened to me later on...

Nicole: Mhm, it all hit you like a ton of bricks.

John: Yeah, because it was like, "Oh, yeah, this is actually what you did." Right? When I was going out and having a good time and doing all this and being the cool guy, like, you know, pickup artist and all this stuff, I wasn't thinking about those things. Right? I was aware of them, but it wasn't... It didn't make...

John: The real emotional connection that made it real. It's like, okay, it's weird when you're... I imagine that someone who commits any kind of crime, not that crime, right, to some degree feels disconnected from it and doesn't realize that they're the bad guy, right?

Nicole: Oh, I'm sure.

John: And it's like when you realize, "Oh yeah, okay, there's extenuating circumstances, of course, there were things that were done to me, blah blah blah," but when I look at it now, I'm like, "Damn, I was a pretty bad guy, right? That was not a good thing. I was a bad guy. At the time, I thought I was a cool guy, right? I had the ego, but I didn't really connect. This is bad, right, a very bad thing I'm doing." It makes sense that your mind would push it out because then you'd have to face it. But, side note, did I pick up the pickup artist when we got together? Like, I picked you up because you were just going to go out and be single, and I picked you up and put you in the relationship box.

Nicole: That's true, yeah. Like, I think it's so... Who's the real pickup artist? You trapped the pickup artist.

John: Trapped. It didn't seem very hard to trap you, but yeah.

Nicole: But you didn't know what you were getting.

John: You're damn right about that. Like, pull this thread, "Oh, that's what's connected to that thread." So, it's like, yeah, yeah, like lift up the rug, see all the dirt, put it back down. But uh, that was just my little side note. But yeah, I understand your perspective. But I'm thinking, after hearing what you said, maybe this couple does talk about their things with each other because they've agreed to both do it. But the thing is, look, I mean, you know, and so maybe they don't feel guilty. Maybe they're subconscious. Maybe they don't get into bed with each other and they're like, they don't feel bad about it because they're both doing it. For now, I mean, I agree. Eventually, the reality will hit. That's the thing sustainable about the right because you can't avoid the emotional... Okay, you could do this after a 20-year marriage if all that's left is a friendship, and even then, you're still hurting a friend pretty badly, right?

Nicole: That's what I'm saying. Even when you were saying that this person's like a friend, it's... I wanted to bring it up then, so I guess I'll bring it up now because you're bringing it up. That doesn't still even seem like a friend to me because, yeah, like in the situation where it's one-sided or you're cheating, you're hiding it. That's not a very good friend. But like you said, even if they know, it still doesn't feel very friendly to me. Like, I think the better term is, you can coexist with each other. You're like roommates who also interact more than normal roommates, right? You're like, yeah, two roommates who kind of are friends with each other is but you're not close because you can't be close if you're hiding things or like even if you're sharing intimacy with other people, you can't be as close as you would be in a monogamous relationship. And that's where the real bad thing comes in is because you're not just betraying a marriage and a relationship and a commitment, you're betraying a friendship also that you're carrying on, you know, knowing what you're doing. That's probably where I would imagine that it stings the most on the other side of it.

John: Mhm, and that's the thing that makes you feel really shitty, I can tell you, is like, because it's like, I know what game I was playing and what things I was saying and how I was acting, right, as if nothing was going on.

Nicole: Mhm.

John: And that's bad, right? That's lying, right? And so, yeah, so what I'm saying is that, regardless of what they say or how cool they are with it, if your relationship has degraded to the point where you are just roommates, then it's kind of a moot point because you're not really opening up the relationship anyway. You're just making a business deal, a partnership deal. You're just roommates, and you're essentially getting a divorce, except for on paper. You're hanging out, you're friends with benefits, whatever, but you're not really friends because you can't have the intimacy because you're destroying it, no matter how open and honest people are about it. What if they're doing it together, like in the same room, like the swinger people? And so, it's not like, because even the Mormon swinger people were like, "Don't, you can't go off with somebody without the other person knowing," or something like that, or maybe it was even in general. And so, I think they were all like in the same room. Do you think that makes a difference, like if they're there and they're seeing the things?

Nicole: I mean, I would think that that's honestly, it's all bad in my mind, but that might be even worse.

John: It's worse. That's what I was about to say because I'll tell you why. I mean, I'm trying to think how to keep this still PG and say this, but you're eating some ice cream, right, and then, you know, and then with your partner, and then someone else is eating some ice cream with your partner, and it appears that your partner enjoys that ice cream better. They're making better noises about the ice cream. Just, just say this is just part of the thing. Don't tell me it's going to be 100% equal every single direction that you, everywhere in the food court, no, right? It's not. So, and tell me that you're not going to feel a way about that, no matter who you are, please. You've been together for 20 years. Like, that's a long time. And like you said, even if, like, maybe your relationship isn't as close or whatever as it once was, and that's why you guys are doing it or whatever reason, right? You're going to care still because you've been with this person for 20 years. When someone that doesn't even like you, right, expresses their dislike to you or says they're not interested in you, you care as a human being. It pisses you off. People actually try to get with people that they don't like because that person is rejecting them in some way or slight to them, to get that validation. This is a real thing. It's not a good thing, but it's human nature. So, I can't even imagine that it just, you know, I understand that people think that it's working, right, but the shit always hits the fan. That's what's going to happen. That when you realize what you're doing, when you come to terms with the truth, like, yeah, it is one thing to be stoic and to not be jealous and to suppress that as much as possible, but when it's in your face, when you're having a relationship with someone where you had something that was exclusive to you and now it's not, right, you, no matter how perfect of a saint you are, you cannot help but feel a way, right?

Nicole: I agree. So, I mean, can you imagine like, I guess the other thing I was going to...

John: Say it's like because some people are justifying it, obviously saying, "Oh," and I don't mean this in a bad way. I think from a naive viewpoint, if you look at this and you say, "Oh yeah, this makes sense." Like if you've never been with anyone else, you guys just got married young, you never experienced anything else, and you've been together for 20 years, you have a solid relationship, then yeah, together you decide that you want to explore some other things. From a naive standpoint, sure, seems feasible. But let me ask you this question: if you and I got married, right, what we did, well, at 19, or you know, like our first person we've ever been with, and we had the relationship that we have, would you ever think that was a good idea? No, or even think that you would even really even want to consider it? I mean, maybe some thoughts would be going through your head like, "I wonder what it would be like to be with other people," or "I wonder what other kinds of relationships would be," but it's... But see, people think that like that's such an essential thing. I have never tried heroin. I have thought to myself, "I wonder what heroin would be like," not to a serious degree. I don't need to go and experience heroin. I don't need to try some. You better not. I don't need to smoke crack, right? You know, I don't need to do those things. So that's why I say that if you have something that's good, just because you haven't been with other people, just because you haven't had the experience, and again, I'm saying it from the perspective of someone who was in that position, right? And yeah, I did do what I did, but I didn't for 15 years or whatever, you know? And I wouldn't have had a relationship like we do, and I... you know, it's easy for me to say it now because of how good our relationship is and because of how attracted I am to you and the... you know. But someone could say, "Well, that's because you did do stuff, and now you're...," you know, which it's hard for me to refute that, right?

Nicole: Right.

John: But I know in my heart that it wouldn't matter because I know in the past that that part, even though it did go through my head, it wouldn't have compelled me enough to ever... I would never open a good relationship just because I lacked the experience.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, you still had one other person, which is not a ton, but it is still something to reference. And I'm not saying that I agree with what they did, right? But I do think that there is something to them getting married so young and only being with each other. I have always said that I think that is a horrible idea. You know what I mean? Like, I get that if you have something really good, like you and I, I'm not saying not to do that, but at the same time, because you have had no other experiences to base anything off of, even if it's amazing, you... I think anybody would have crazy thoughts. I'm not saying to open the relationship, right? But I'm saying that they just literally have nothing to compare, even one other person to compare it to is something over nothing. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I'm not, again, I'm not justifying it, right? But I just want to stress that I've always felt like I don't think people should get married very young. Uh, my parents didn't get married very young, and they instilled in me, you know, like you should go and live your life. Not saying go and live your life in that way, right? But to live my life. And I agree with that because I was even having a talk with Sophia a few months ago that if you find somebody in high school that is your soulmate, like I get that that is like a big deal, but then now you got to make sure you go to the same college or at least close enough, and then that could limit what you want to do as far as your college or your career. That could limit what they want to do because now you're focusing on just trying to stay together, and then like, yeah, you have all these decisions now that are based not on what you want to do but what you want to do as a couple. And you're so young that you don't really know what you want to do yet, like with your whole life. Like, you can know that you want to be in a good relationship and you want to have like a traditional marriage or like a marriage full of love and like with someone that you really, really care about, and that is your soulmate. But also, at the same time, like getting together in high school, you still have so much growing to do, even in college, right? Like, and I'm not saying to break up with the person you want to be with, but I think people who get together really young need to not get married until they're like 25. You can stay together, right? But you need to wait because once you're married, now you officially really do have to involve that person in every single aspect of your life. Yeah, like you have to take them into consideration because you're married. But if you're in a relationship, you could get to like college and be like, "Actually, like, I love you, but I want to go do this," and they can make the choice, right? "Okay, I'll follow you," or "Well, I want to do this," right? And you can go your separate ways and maybe in a few years, you end up back together. Like, you don't know. Like, and I get it's complicated, but I also get that I'm just thinking because I was in a relationship, right? Like, all throughout college, right? Literally, all throughout college, and people were like, "When are you guys getting married?" And I was like, "I don't want to do that." You know, like, I had just finished college, he didn't even finish college, and I'm like, "I want to go use my degree. I want to go out in the world, and I want to do something." And he was like thinking about going in the military, and I'm like, "I don't want to follow him around. I want to do my own thing." And granted, it thought differently; it wasn't the right relationship. But like, I just feel like when you're that young, you don't have a lot of life experiences at all. And so if you just get married and now you're doing like everything together, in the sense of, and sometimes too, you're doing things for the other person, and they should also be doing things for you too, right? That like, you do feel like you've missed out on making some of your own decisions and figuring out who you are as a person in a lot of ways, right? That when you get 15, 20 years in, you're like, "I'm still kind of confused from back here." You know, like, "I'm still kind of confused from 19, I'm still kind of confused from 21," and I... you know, like, "I've lived this life." I'm not saying that they're not living a happy marriage or there aren't good times, but I'm saying that like when you get married super young, I do feel like a lot of people end up having these, like, "Well, I didn't get to do this."

John: And then now they're doing things like opening their relationship, or they're doing things like this. And if you waited until you're 25, no matter if you stay together or not, or if you're with your soulmate or not, if you give yourself enough time, because that's also when your brain fully develops, is that 25.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah, depends on that. I think you can make a lot—

John: Oh yeah, for men, it's like 43, but you know, I think 25 is a good age because you're still young, okay, but your brain is fully developed, and you've also gone through a lot of things. And if you're still together, you can handle that, you know? And then now you're in a place that you guys both probably figured out your career, even whether you stayed together or not, or you at least know more about who you are. I'm not saying that you don't figure that out, but I just think that it's a better recipe because there becomes all these questions that you never got answered because you never had the opportunity.

Nicole: Well, here's the thing, okay. I can see, I mean, there's some things that I think make more sense than that and some that don't. And it's such a complicated topic, right? But because the first thing I would say is comparison is the theft of joy. Having less things to compare to equals more joy. Ignorance is bliss to a degree, right? So many times, the things that actually ruin relationships are comparison. And if you don't have comparison, you may be better off in many cases. Some people, ideally, if you meet your person and you're the only people you've ever been with, that's ideal. It's not practical in most cases, especially the way society is today, but that would be a good thing if that were something, but it's so rare and so unreliable that you can't really count on that, right?

John: Yeah. So second to that, I agree with not being too young. Well, here's what I would say: there's a big difference for men and women. I always tell guys, in fact, I was talking to a guy, you saw the interview I did with the Catholic guy, and he was like, men should get married young and women should get married young, and I was like, for men, let me tell you why that's not like ideally, I understand what you're saying, and just like I said, hey, if you're the first people that you've ever been together with, and you don't have comparison, that's a good thing, but that's not practical. But what is practical is for men, men, I tell guys, do not get into an exclusive relationship until you're at least 30. Now, I know that seems extreme, but let me say why. Date, get experience with women. There are two main reasons.

Nicole: What if you meet your soulmate, though?

John: Well, then, you know, obviously, I'm not, I'm giving guidelines, right? You got to use your own judgment. If you meet your soulmate, and you know this, and you're about it, don't listen to John, tell John to go, you know, because you got it figured out, then you can make that decision, right? But in general, most men are not going to have the knowledge to even evaluate that unless they have experience. Men are supposed to be the leaders. It's better if a man has more experience, understands the world better, that a woman can look up to him. It will create a better dynamic in a relationship to begin with. He should be older as well. That's preferable. Again, it doesn't mean the like something's messed up if your relationship is the opposite way. It can still work out. I'm just saying these are ideal conditions, right? So, a guy being five, ten years older is good. So if a guy is in his 30s or 40s, and then he marries a girl that's 10 years earlier, so then what can happen is he can lead their relationship because he's got the experience to do that. A man that is 19 or 20, mhm, it's different for a man and a woman because the woman is not expected to lead that relationship and to have the experience and wisdom to be able to guide the other person, right? Not to discredit a woman, obviously, her intuition and her feminine attributes are very valuable, but they don't require as much time to develop in worldly experience as a man's do. And so, if a man gets married at 19 or 20, heck, I got married at 21, I can tell you, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I didn't have a clue. I was very successful in terms of my career and smart and had my ducks in a row in that way, but compared to what I know now and what I understand now and the wisdom that I have now, I can't believe I could even function, right? So, I couldn't lead anyone. I couldn't lead myself. I, and I was more capable than just about any 21-year-old who had his, I had my head screwed on straight, right? So, I'm just saying, I didn't learn all those lessons. So, a man trying to lead at that young of an age, it's just going to be a disaster, especially in the world that we live in. And so, a man does need to wait and needs to gain experience. And that's why I say that he shouldn't even get into an exclusive relationship because he doesn't want to create those connections and trap himself into a situation where he's going to get married or something because it always leads to that direction. It should be, and so he should just casually date and focus on his career and developing himself. And then when he hits his 30s, then he starts looking, and he finds a woman that is younger, that will look up to him, and she doesn't, it's not as critical for her to have as much life experience because he's going to, if he's successful and he understands how the world works, he can create a successful environment for her and take care of her financially, and lead her. She just has to trust him. If she trusts him, because if you find a man that you can put all your trust in and be feminine with, then you don't have to worry about those other things. And sometimes also, for women, we talked about this too, on the sexual side of things, that a man's sexual experience has a scale from realistically four to 10 because there's nothing below a four, right? But a woman has zero, right? Or maybe even negative one, right? To a thousand. And so, a man having more experience, it doesn't create as much of a comparison, theft of joy situation. It can, but it doesn't necessarily. But a woman, if a woman has had more experience, and she's hit some 800s, you know, and then, but those were people who are not a good person for her to be with, and then she meets her soulmate, and it's more of a 10, or a 15, or an eight, that's her soulmate, then well, I agree with you, that's probably not the case, but it can create an issue there where that could be a comparison situation that is not good. So, it's so complicated.

Nicole: Well, here's what I think about the woman's side, because it's a little bit different than what you're saying. I understand what you're saying, and I agree. Like, I don't think anybody, man or woman—

John: Needs to just go out and just hook up with people so that they know what their scale they're working with. But I do still think women should get married around 25, and here's why. Okay, because I feel like I've also always said this as well, that a woman needs to go out on her own and do things on her own because otherwise, she won't feel like she can, and she has to prove that to herself. She has to prove that she can do things on her own and that she's capable of being on her own, so she's not codependent, so that she doesn't get stuck in bad situations with bad men. Mhm. So she knows that if she does get in one of those situations, she can leave and she can figure it out on her own because she did it before. I think that's very important. And I also think that's very important because the second she gives in to the right man and trusts him to lead her, you will know it's because she's actually trusting in you because it takes a lot for a woman to give up her way of doing things, her proving to herself that she can do these things, and hand it all over to you. I don't think men really realize.

Nicole: Well, to be honest, not a lot of people are in our situation where there's a sole provider, and then, you know, the woman stays at home. There are some, but there's not a lot. But I don't think men realize that if you have a woman that is fully investing in you and fully trusting you to lead the relationship, and men can still lead even in a 50/50 or whatever dynamic, but it's harder, right? Because she has more responsibility, so she should get more input. But unless she has that baseline to be like, "I can do this. I actually like doing it. I like proving to myself that I can be on my own, and you know, that I have these options," right? And she gives that all up for you to put her trust in you and have you now lead her life. Yeah, that means more, and she needs that. She needs that because otherwise, she won't have anything. Yes, comparison is the theft of joy, but when you're single, man or woman, and someone comes along, and they're even better than your single life where you can do whatever you want because you don't have anybody else to say anything, you can come home and do whatever you want, but being with someone else and sharing your life with someone else is better than that. Mhm. You know that that is the relationship you should be in. That comparison is vital, and a lot of people don't have that right, or something has messed that up, right? Or like they're either codependent, and they're just hopping from one relationship to the next because they can't be alone, and so the relationship's also not healthy because they can't be alone. So they're going to do whatever they need to do in that situation to not be alone, right? Or, you know, they're so perpetually single, like they don't want to give up their single ways, right? That's also not the way to be, right? And they don't fully invest because they're afraid, and that's a whole another area with that. But if the right person came along, and they took the leap of faith, right? 'Cause some people are single, and that's why too, like 25, it's like, I'm not saying you have to do that, but I'm saying that's enough time where you've gotten out of college, or whatever you're doing, or you're in your career, and so you've gotten kind of established on your own, or you've gotten more into your career, and you've gotten more confidence in yourself that when somebody comes along, and they're like, you know, "I want to be with you. I want to lead our relationship and take care of you and all these things," if they're the right person, you'll be like, "Okay, I will. I will give up my independence, the security that I gave myself, for your security you're going to give me." And that's a big deal. Like, yeah, a lot of people don't realize that. And I do think women need that to compare against, right? Like, I think that it's not about even like the sex. I think it's about, you know, that doing it on your own and giving up that independence for something better enough that you can do it on your own, or you have, and you have something to actually give up, right? I'm not needy, dependent on you, right? And I have some a sacrifice to make that is that compares it to, right.

John: You convince me. Yeah, you convince me. It makes sense what you're saying makes sense. Yeah, I revise my statement. It makes sense, 25 for women. It makes sense, right? That's still, it doesn't mean ho it up from 20 to 25. No, I'm not saying that. It doesn't mean that you have to be a virgin from 20 to 25 either, right? It just means that if you're going to date, date with intention.

Nicole: 'Cause like, you can still find your soulmate at 23, sure, but just wait till 25, right? And then figure again. And it doesn't have to be right at 25. Like, I'm just saying that around that area. 'Cause like, we met when I was like 28, about to be 29, right? And so, like, it doesn't have to be right at 25, but it has to be as a woman where you have felt some sort of independence or some sort of "I can do this on my own," right? And when that person comes along where you're like, "You know what? This is better than that," right? And men should have that too, right? Like, because it's very important. But I also don't want women to watch this and be like, "Oh, well, you know, I just have to be really young," right? Like, because that's also what gets people in these situations, is like, they don't have certain knowledge, right? And they just marry, and then they start thinking about it, and then they think more about it, and then now they're coming to you and like, "Hey, you want to open the relationship," you know what I mean? Or like, some other thing that is going to impact your relationship. And I think another thing I wanted to bring up without going on too long is that you said, what did you say? I got to dig in my brain for it. You said that, you know, they think this is a good idea, opening the relationship, because they're looking like, "Okay, well, they didn't have all this experience. They didn't get to do all these things," and you called it naive. And it is naive, but it's also like looking at the past and not the future. Because if you're just looking at the past and being like, "Oh, I understand," like, you can understand but realize that you're not looking at the future. They're not looking at the future. They're not looking at what the future of their relationship is going to look like five years from now, yeah, right? Because the old is going to get new, and the change that you've made is not going to unchange, right? Meaning that it might be fun for a few years to go and experiment with other people if you're in that situation, but eventually, that will get old, right? 'Cause that can't stay exciting.

John: And now, forever, you can't go back to just the regular right now. You can't ever go back to that. Never can you have that intimacy. A million wicked thoughts will be going through your brain, then you'll start having freakouts and a thousand bottles of baby oil, a million jealous thoughts. Even if you tried to go back and like, "Okay, we're not doing that anymore, now we're just exclusive to each other," you're going to wonder about every sexual experience your partner had. You'll wonder, were any better than what you guys have had? What things did you do that you didn't do with me? Like, all kinds of... It's just, that's human nature, right? Like you said, nobody would not feel those things. They might act like they wouldn't, but they would. This is a person that you care about deeply.

Nicole: Yeah, even if you're not intimate as deeply as you were, you care, and so those thoughts will come up no matter who you are. And no matter how much you shove them down, they're going to come up. I was also going to say about what you said because you did commit to me on the 25th. I think that makes sense because if I think about it too, if I had a guy that I was coaching that was, let's say, 30, and he was like, "I'm going to marry this girl; she's 20 or 21," I'd be like, "Good luck with that." But if she's 25, I'm like, "Okay, she's got a good head on her shoulders, she has a high desire for you, she treats you like a king." But if she's 20, 21, 22, 23, I'm starting to... I'm not saying that I'm... I'm saying that at that point, I'm going to question the guy harder, right? 'Cause I'm going to be like, "Are you sure about this? Are you sure, sure that she's sure?" Because, right, she's more of a wild card.

John: She's 25, older than 25. And again, also with the, not uncomfortable with the not pretty part of this, is that we know that a man's options are widest if he takes care of himself and is successful beyond 30, right? In his 20s, they're narrow. So, that's why it's optimal for a man, and the woman's options, right, are wider around, you know, let's say from 22 to 26, 27. That's where the widest is, right? It diminishes over time. It's no secret. It doesn't devalue a woman, but it's just, hey, if you're looking to have the widest number of guys that would be interested in you, it's going to be in that typical age range for most people. Not to say that you can't be successful afterwards, but if you're trying to optimize an ideal, then it fits your equation nicely.

Nicole: It's because men don't mature for way longer. And it's because women look more youthful, you know, which is not everything. It's not everything, no. But like, I was thinking about this when you were explaining like getting married at like 19 or even 21. I can't see, no offense, a woman having respect for their husband at 20 or 21 because men at that age don't typically act in a way that garners respect. So, she's grown up with you acting like a 19, 21-year-old, and then now you're getting more mature, but she's seen you back when you were the furthest from mature. And so that does influence people. So, I agree, age, that it's better to find a man that's older because he is probably more mature. You're not going to look at him and be like, "God, he's still a 19-year-old inside." And to be honest, like, a lot of men do take a long time to mature, and it's not attractive to women, especially because women mature faster, and they typically do get their stuff together. I'm not saying all do, right, but they typically try to get their ducks in a row. So, when they come across a man that's immature, that's an instant turnoff. It doesn't matter what he looks like, doesn't matter what he does, right, instant turnoff. So, if you're getting married as a man when you're immature, your wife is not really going to have a lot of respect for you. Yeah, she can get it, you know, when you become more mature and things like that, but at the same time, you've been together since you were really immature.

John: Right, yeah. She's going to have those memories of that, exactly. Yeah, and everybody has their moments where they're immature. Like, I'm not trying to sit here and act like we're never immature, right? But it is less... it's not as much of a problem if you don't have those instances of like thinking back to when he was 19, and he, like, you know, got a bunch of credit card debt because he bought five Xboxes to play with his bros or something. You know what I mean? Like, you'll have those memories that you might reflect on, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you've genuinely grown to respect your husband.

Nicole: Yeah, but guys getting married young, the woman's not going to respect you. No, that's the thing. That's why it is better if he's older. If he's developed himself and has become mature and established himself, that's why. And older women too, like I say older, but like 23, or 20, or 25, yeah, right, and onward, they also will respect men more. Because if you went to like a college and talked to a 20-year-old, they're probably still in that defiant, almost teenager stage where they're like, "Don't tell me what to do."

John: Right, like so, that's also not the time to be marrying a woman. And like, even if you're in a relationship and she can be more the more mature one, there's also still a part of her that's still kind of immature. Obviously, it's the 25s when our brains start developing. I'm not saying it's an instant switch, but most people will tell you, women will be like, "Yeah, at 25, I felt different." Like, it's not a huge difference, but there is a difference. Like, do you want, like men talk about these, "Oh, I got like this 20-year-old at the bar." Like, okay, cool, like she probably just wanted to use you for some reason because she's still in that immature, just got out of high school, wants to like party, which I'm not saying is the right thing to do either. But, I'm saying it's so tempting to her because she's still in that mentality.

Nicole: Right, whereas when she's out of college, or like if she starts her career and she's a few years into her career, she's getting more serious. She has to be because she's out on her own, she's figuring out life. So, that's why by that 25, you're going to have a different woman than you would at 20, even if it's the same exact woman.

John: Right, yeah. It's more risky, that. Like, I would say if I was coaching a guy to be getting into a serious relationship with a woman, especially to marry, that's under 25, just because a lot more can change in that timeframe. Whereas by 25, she might be, if she's solid, then she's more likely.

John: To stay solid, right? Maybe you have this super mature 21 or 22-year-old, you know? If that's the case, and that's the exception, right? But you know, in general, you'll know if there's an exception to the rule and things like that.

Nicole: Is there any... We went on a little tangent, but I mean, it kind of goes back, right? Because the thing is, opening the relationship for any reason is the death of that relationship. Can you have a different kind of relationship? Yes. Will it probably eventually unravel in the future? Yeah, that's what all the statistics say anyway. I can't see it not unless you're just committed to having an open relationship or swinging for the rest of your guys' life, which old people do, right? A lot of old people are swingers, but at that point, they have... It's not... I think a lot of times it's because they have not worked on their relationship. They've just sort of stayed together and given up. In many cases, they might have a love for each other, but it's not... The thing is, if you want a truly intimate relationship, you cannot open it.

John: And I guess the thing that I think is most important is, if you are in the situation and you have something that's good already, don't mess with it because it's hard enough to find that, especially if you're the only person you've been with. You guys got together young, and you have a good relationship. Don't mess with that because what you're doing is going to be worse than what you have. You're taking a huge gamble for no return, no payoff, right? Because you already... If you don't have it and you've been together since you're young, then sure, then I think maybe you need to start thinking about things. I mean, I would still say get a divorce. Well, I would still say, hey, you got that much time in together, you've only been with each other, see what you can like, see if you can make the relationship that you have into what you want it to be with the effort. And if you can't, then yeah, then maybe then you say, okay, but you get a divorce. You do something. You don't open it and then create all kinds of hurt and problems, and then kids, and we didn't even talk about that.

Nicole: I know. I'm like, should we do a part two?

John: Maybe after the kids are growing up, you could say. But I don't even know if they have kids. But I'm like, do you want your kids to find out? Because everything done in the dark comes to light, isn't that right, P Diddy? But like, you want your kids to find out that they thought their parents had such a nice marriage, and then they find out whenever they find out that they were swinging with other people. They're not going to love that. And look, someone messaged me today when I was doing a sales call for my retirement program, and they're like, "What are your credentials or background?" You know, like he wasn't saying it in a mean way, he just was. And I was like, well, there was a school that I went to, you probably heard of the school, it's called the School of Hard Knocks. That's where a lot of...

Nicole: So, and that's what I would say about this, is like, I've been through situations similar, and I can tell you that all the stuff that I say on this podcast, because a lot of people judge me, and they're like, "Well, you did this. You cheated. You had an unsuccessful relationship. You know, whatever." And they list all the things, or "Oh, you just had an issue, you and Nicole had to fight the other week," or what. And my answer is that, yeah, that's why I'm telling you, because you've learned from those things.

John: Yeah, because I've... This is why I have these strong opinions on these things, is because I figured out what does not work, and I felt the pain of it. And so, and you as well. And so, that's why it's like, yeah, you know, those people want to act like they're looking for people who've never made a mistake or never done anything. They're never going to find those people because the people they admire, business people, whoever, they've all made mistakes, right? So, if they want to cut us out of what they believe is true because we've made mistakes, let them go searching for the Fountain of Youth that doesn't exist, let them go searching for Perfection that doesn't exist. And you find someone who doesn't made mistakes, the answer is yet. And so, it's coming. Well, I don't even think you can find someone that hasn't made mistakes. I'm just saying like, the things, you know, it's coming. It's a fall, a pit you can't escape. Can't escape the mistakes.

Nicole: Yeah, but so, yeah, maybe we'll have to do a part two because that is... I'm sure we'll stir up some debate on the topic. So, but it is something. I mean, it's an interesting... I don't even know how you can debate what we said. We've covered so many... Some people on the other side of that, obviously.

John: Right, that... Yeah, I mean, I'd want to hear their perspective because it makes sense when you tell it a certain way, right? But I think when you think through all the details like we did, and you think about the future, then you realize how flawed that thinking is, that it does not... It's the lack of future thinking that I don't think people get in this instance because that's what you have to look at, right? Because the past is gone, the present you're doing the stuff, like obviously, that matters, but because you can choose not to do it right now in the present. But if you keep doing it, you have to look at the future, like what is this going to cause to happen? And it's a lot of messy things, not a lot of good things.

Nicole: Well, and look, here's something also that is super important. We're running out of time, but because I again, I coach a lot of guys, by the way, if you want some coaching, shoot us an email, betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com. But one of the things that is very clear in regards to sex is that what makes the best sex is not a technique. I'm not saying that those things aren't important at all, right? As a master of the techniques. But what is the most important thing? The connection, the intimacy. That's the most important thing. Every coaching client of mine, that guy that I've talked to, that's like, "Oh, it's crazy. It's the best I've ever had." You know, it's like she's the best she's ever had. What makes it different is that you have that strong connection. You've built the relationship, right? So, if you're going out there looking for sex, thinking that you're going to get some variety or something better than what you've got, you're looking in the wrong direction because those are going to be... I'm not saying you can't have a good experience, sure you could. But if you want the best, it's going to be one.

John: Where there's a strong degree of intimacy that's been built up and continued to invest in because that creates the best.

John: Right, so don't, if you've got that, you don't throw it away. Not for, you got a steak dinner, do not go and go to Subway. Like we talked about, going to Subway is stupid. It's stupid. Like, it doesn't... yeah, but it is stupid. And also, too, this is just kind of like a general psychology, spiritual, whatever you want to call it, thing. When you have something good like that and you start having all these questions pop up, instead, write down the things you're grateful for in your relationship. Because then those questions will go away because you'll realize what you have right now. And you'll realize that even if you're curious about something because you got married young or whatever, if you look at the things that you appreciate in your relationship and you have a really good relationship, you won't think about those things, or at least not as much. Where then you want to act on them. Hey, when I go to a restaurant, a lot of restaurants, I have my favorite meal. I order that meal every time. I don't sit there and look at the menu and say I need to order everything on this menu just to make sure that it's already my favorite thing. But you might want to try two or three. But that's why I'm saying try two or three in the beginning, then you'll know. Sure, then, then I could give you that. But yeah, you know, too, but you don't have to try everything on the menu if you have something that you like. That's the thing, is that discontent people are discontented because they think that they are missing out. That FOMO is one of the worst things that send you on the path of destruction. That is not worth it. Because when you try to find the thing that you feel like you're missing, you lose what you have. Right, and that's, and then you really be sad.

John: Yeah, what was a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I heard that. Those bushes, get out of the bushes. You got, you don't need to be in the bushes. Get out of the bushes. Alright, we should probably go to the end.

Nicole: Yeah, uh, and it's your turn, but I just want to say that John jinxed us.

John: Okay, so I jinxed us because I said he's not allowed to say, see that we don't even have the award anymore. We don't even have the award anymore because, and I have to apologize for yawning so much in the last, you can't tell, cuts to the... Okay, I didn't do on purpose, but I was yawning. So Nicole was insulted by the yawning, again, not something I was purposely doing. But we got into, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we got into the, I don't know, more crazy cycle, the crazy cycle, and uh, yeah, and we both got, not super, super far into it, but far enough.

Nicole: Well, yeah, it got too, it got far enough in that I started getting defensive again, and then I went back to my response, right, like that I had before, that wasn't a good response. And so I think you got scared, and you felt betrayed. Yeah, because you were like, what if she was just lying this whole time? But really, I just made a mistake because I was trying not to get defensive for so long in that conversation. Yeah, but I did get to a point where like, I just got frustrated, and then I started being defensive, right, which wasn't the right thing to do because I'm still responsible for my actions. And I don't want you to feel like I lied to you or, you know, like was pretending or whatever. But instead of like stopping, which is hard for me, like, and to just turn it, do like a U-turn, you know, like just U-turn right now, Nicole, you can just U-turn right here. I have to go all the way to the, you know, 10 miles down the road, then turn back. So, you know, that was cross, good, the St. Pete, the bridge into St. Pete, which hopefully is still there after the hurricane. But yeah, exactly. I got across the long bridge because there's no way to turn around because I'm on the bridge. But that's not the way to be either. But that's just when I get into that defensive, like stubborn mode, it's like that's what my brain wants to do.

Nicole: And yeah, and I think I was overreactive to a degree because you had just made this shift and change, and so I was very scared to lose that. Because in the past, I had had rug pulls, right, where I was very disappointed, and that, that was what I, I was just sad because I was like, I feel like I got rug pulled. Even though that's not the case, you know, I was hypervigilant around that area. So, but since then, I, I've really, I've realized that no, this is a permanent thing. Like, you really do understand me and what we talked about, and mistakes may happen, but it's not a need to panic and go into a protect what you have mode, which is, or I, and, and I just realized, we were just talking on the way here, that I just realized recently, I was like, you know, I, I, I, I take, I've been taking things just in general a lot more seriously than I normally do life and becoming more insulted by things or, you know, and that, and that comes from a fear of, of like, of not having the security and stability and safety that we have. But now that I know it, and it's so reinforced, I can like go that and just be chill about stuff that's not a big deal. It doesn't, like, you know, it doesn't have to be a reactive thing or something that every little slight that I perceive is critical, you know what I mean? Which that's how I've kind of been operating sometimes because I've been worried about, you know, those things. But, you know, I can rest on what I know. I know how you feel about me. I know how much you respect me. I know how much, what kind of person you are, right, all those things. And so it's sort of like, you had a thing where you took the thing, weight off of your shoulder, just right. And now I feel like that's the weight off of my shoulders, that to go back to that, because that's how I used to be. And then, and I think with all the stuff that's happened in my life, somehow I got lost from that and started taking offense of things that I shouldn't.

Nicole: It's not hard to do, because when we were talking about it, it was interesting because I think that I was, when we were talking about it, I told you too, that I think that's why sometimes we have a hard time communicating because we're acting like it's not a safe space, right, and it's from our past where it wasn't safe. I can see why it would upset you so that you thought I'd change because I said these things to you, and then I made a mistake, and it made me feel like you thought I was lying to you or something, because you actively experienced those things in your previous relationship. And my fears of why it's not safe stem from my past and not from you specifically. And so when you mention that, I think it's good to recognize that your relationship is safe and that you are.

John: Safe and that sometimes we act from a place when we weren't safe and we're kind of bringing that into the safe space, right? Like, and it's understandable because it was a big deal and it hurt you in that moment when it happened, and you're afraid of that happening again. But you have to come back to the present and be like, that's not this situation, that's not what's happening right now. And eventually, that gets easier with time because you just have the time to now realize you are safe, and you get more evidence, right, of that. But sometimes we still go back to our fears, and we get nervous and feel unsafe, but we don't realize we are safe. And I'm sure we'll have to do a whole episode on that sort of experience too. And it's stuff also, I guess we, but as a man, because I was talking to some of my coaching clients too, and it's as a man, you do have to recognize that women are going to go through emotional extremes, and you can't react to those. You can help turn them around sometimes, but it's not critical Defcon station 5 sometimes when you think that it might be, which is hard for a man because we're wired a different way. We think, okay, if this is happening or this way is felt, or this is what it is, whereas emotions and emotional states for women are more fluid. And that's the thing, you know, as to realize like, okay, let's not get offended by this emotional state that a woman's in right now, right? Let this pass. Sometimes women are offensive with their emotions, but sometimes they're not and can still feel offensive, right? And so, like, trying not to take things personally, especially if someone's trying to delicately tell you something, is hard to do, especially with someone you're really intimate with. But I mean, I also should do the same thing, you know. So, it's a learning process.

Nicole: So, all right, well, that's it for today. Leave us a review, please. Thank you. Yeah, we still have banana fingers after all this time, but I mean, we love you, banana fingers, but you know, but we need something new. It's not iTunes anymore, it's Apple Podcasts, right? But yeah, and if you do want to be on the podcast and sit right here and talk to us, or if you have any situation you want us to talk about specifically, we could do a whole episode on that. You've got to be in San Diego if you want to be on the podcast. Just email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com. And if you are a man and you want some relationship coaching, I am offering that now again. You can just email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com. That's it. All right, see you next time.