John: I thought today we would talk about if it's ever okay for a woman to propose, speaking of picking out an engagement ring, to a man. If a man buys you a PS4 for your birthday and he's like, "Oh, look, I got you a PS4, and I even got my favorite football game for you to play," it's like, okay, that's what it's like when a woman proposes to a guy. Beyond that, we discovered through our flaws, we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault and find our way. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other become better equals one better than perfect relationship. I think it's helping each other grow.

Nicole: Oh, grow, yeah, yeah, become better. That, you know, I mean, hey, we're just better. It's different every time, as our almost 13-year-old would say. She's like, "I'm just better. We're just better." I thought before we get into it this time, well, we're back from our trip.

John: Yeah, we've been back. With the time, oh yeah, 'cause our episode came out today. That's why I'm thinking of that. But anyway, it's just, it's confusing. But we try not to confuse you, but we confuse ourselves by trying not to confuse you. But I've got a comment from the Hawaii trip episode that I thought we would read and respond to. Living together and taking trips together, yeah, that's what the episode was about. You should watch it. Exactly, yeah, if you have a shameless plug. Anonymous account 514 said, "I disagree with the man booking everything for the trip because a man doesn't have the sensibilities to choose the best room, the best hotel, the best seats on the plane, the best activities because men are accustomed to discomfort. We are okay with things not being perfect. So, I say the man is responsible for funding the trip, but the woman should feel empowered to select the plane, hotel room, and activities." What are your thoughts on that one?

Nicole: Okay, he's basically like saying that he doesn't care enough. Like he's trying to appear so incompetent about picking these things.

John: Yeah, when that's not true. Because I mean, you're not him, and he's not you. But when we have to sit in some cramped airplane seats, you know, I'm sure if we could have picked something else, you would have picked those for your comfort.

Nicole: Right. I can't see this guy just shoving into some small airplane seats and being like, "This is great. I'm having a blast." And then I love how he's trying to convince women it's empowering to make these decisions. Like, he's kind of manipulating the whole situation. He's basically saying, like, he's trying to use this weaponized incompetence, like men can't do this. Like men can't plan a nice vacation because they don't care about these things. Right, like saying that he's never going to.

John: Right. And then also being like, so you should feel empowered as a woman to book the airplane ticket and to pick the hotel room, which I don't agree with too. Because like, I mean, I guess it's different because that's not our dynamic, and I would never just like pick something and you just be like, okay, do whatever you want. I would feel like you didn't care.

Nicole: Exactly, yeah. And I also would be like, okay, well, I don't want to book a hotel room outside of our budget. So, I would probably even book what he's saying he would do, like probably book not the best seats and a hotel that's like in between because I wouldn't want to like spend more than you're comfortable with. And I know we could have a conversation about it, but then if we can have a conversation about it, why can't we both book it at the same time, you know what I mean? Like, it just a lot of it doesn't make sense. I get what he's getting at because yes, men don't care as much about those sort of details. That part is true. But to act like men don't care about it and we want to sit in the cramped airplane seats is a lie. It's sort of kind of in a way as if I were, I gave you my credit card and I said, "Go buy yourself a nice Christmas gift."

John: Right, right. It's yeah, you could do that for sure. But at the same time, it doesn't have the same meaning. And so, and the way I think about it too is like, I get his point, right, men can handle discomfort, they don't care about some of the finer things in life sometimes. But at the same time, I think one, like you said, the romantic side of it is being thoughtful. As we talked about before, in fact, I would add to it because we did the episode on romance for a guy or being romantic as a guy. That was last week, right?

Nicole: That was last week.

John: It's also, it's not just being thoughtful, it's putting effort in. So, it's being thoughtful and putting effort in. That was the part I missed. But so, that's part of it, is that you're planning this trip, you book all the things so that the woman doesn't have to worry about all these things. It's a surprise, and you got probably going to get a nicer place than she would have picked out. You know, and also, I like to be a classy guy. I mean, I picked out your engagement ring, right? You know, which a lot of women are terrified of a man doing that. You did a phenomenal job. I have good tastes. I know what luxury is. I know it's nice, the finer things in life. I want to show you, as a woman, the finer things in life, which I have an understanding of, and provide them for her. Right. I don't want to be like, "Oh, I don't know what's good or what's nice." I want to be that kind of guy, and that's what guys should aspire to be, is to be the guy that understands the finer things in life. That knows that says, "Oh, you know, this is a better..." Women are always impressed when a guy recommends a wine because he knows the wine, or says, "Oh, we're going to go to this restaurant because this is one of the best restaurants in the city."

Nicole: Yeah, right. It's impressive that he knows those things, that he understands the finer things. Or you go to a man's house, a woman goes to a man's house, and she sees that he has silk bed sheets, or that it's just clean. You know what I mean? And he doesn't sleep on like a futon. Some more luxurious stuff.

John: Right. So, I think being sophisticated as a man and understanding these things is a good thing.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. And I would say too, that like, I agree with the part of like, maybe she does the activities because I know on some of the trips we've been on, I've like tried to look up things for us to do while we're there, and things like that. And I think that's fair. And even when we went on our honeymoon, like I did some research of places that I thought would be good and then sent them to you, so you still like got to make the final decision.

John: Yeah, but our honeymoon was also very long, so I also wasn't about to put like a month-long vacation on your shoulders, right, by yourself. You know, so to give him a little credit.

John: Should he do every single absolute minute detail? No, that's not necessary. But what you said is, if you do that for your woman, she will be so eager to plan the activities.

Nicole: To you, you get options. If you still, whatever that might be, hotel or restaurants to go to or things like that, she'll be so excited to do her part. Yeah, like we're not talking about where a guy plans everything and a woman just acts entitled to it. Obviously, that would make anybody upset. But there is that romantic side, like you said, that maybe just has been lost too. And guys don't realize that they need to pamper a woman in general, make her feel special, make her feel pampered. That if we do a clip of that, they're going to come for you.

John: I know they're going to come for me, but that's treating a woman like a lady. That will make her act to you more feminine and let her drop down her masculine. She's not going to be as bossing you around and disagreeable when you're pampering her and treating her like a lady. It doesn't mean you're getting walked all over. That's not what I'm saying at all.

Nicole: You know, that's what I think of. But that's the whole idea. You're getting this trip, you're planning out all the details. You're that kind of guy that you're putting the thoughtfulness and effort into it. So, I think it's a cop-out to say that you know, and if you don't know how to figure out this stuff as a guy, figure it out. That's the effort part of it, right?

John: You know, I mean, I consider myself to have good taste, but I looked when I got your engagement ring, and I figured out maybe it'd be hard for me to figure out, but I did figure out what you would like and what is what I like. And part of the reason why you like it is because I picked it out and I put thought into it.

Nicole: Well, you picked out a better one than I even realized that I wanted, so you did a great job. But yeah, it's you know, and I know a lot of men think like this, but I feel like if more men thought like you're explaining and was more romantic, it alone gets easier for them. Like the more you practice it, the easier it gets with anything that you do. So, the more you practice being romantic and putting the thoughtfulness in, it will become a habit of being thoughtful, and it'll become easier to be romantic.

John: Right, so the more you do it, the easier it becomes, and you'll get a better response from your wife, like you said. And that should make her respond better to you as well. Like I said, if you're planning the whole trip, yeah, she should be wanting to help you in all the other ways, like the activities or anything else.

Nicole: Right, and there's nothing wrong with that. The thought behind it and that you're trying to pamper her, like you said, and make her feel special.

John: Exactly. Well, before we, that turns into, well no, that wasn't that long. But before that turns into the whole episode, we'll get into the topic, which is my topic.

Nicole: Yeah, and I thought today we would talk about if it's ever okay or acceptable, or whatever word you want to use, for a woman to propose to a man.

John: No, end of podcast.

Nicole: I knew you were going to say that. But there are plenty of women out there who are, you know, waiting for their man to put a ring on it, and he's just not doing it. And I get that in some situations where it's been a long time, maybe they have kids together, that she might get to a point where she's like, shoot, I'll get down on one knee and put a ring on it. But I know that women don't really want to do that, right? Because even waiting so long for a man to propose to her, it makes her feel a certain type of way. We talked about this in one of our other episodes. Don't do it. Don't wait. So, if she did it, you know, that would also kind of take away the specialness of him finally proposing to her.

John: Right, but there's plenty of women out there, and I will say, without trying to sound whatever, that typically the women that I've known that talk about proposing, it's not in a relationship that is solid to be getting married, period. And that's why the man isn't proposing, and that's why they're trying to like, you know, get through it. It's not the women who wait 8 years to get a ring who are the ones proposing. I think they're the ones that'll joke about it and be like, you know, well, I'll do it myself if you're not going to do it. But it's typically people in like unstable relationships, some sort of dysfunctional dynamic, that is typically where the woman is very serious about proposing to a man.

Nicole: So, I don't think it's actually that much of a reality.

John: Yeah, I, we're just saying it's not.

Nicole: Yeah, but it still does like happen, and it still does come up in some way. And to be honest, another thing in my mind that's popping up is the way men want to be babied and, uh, almost like they want to be taken care of. I wonder if men would prefer a woman to propose to them because then they also know that she would say yes. Well, they, she can plan this extravagant trip, she can plan out all the details and the hotels and the luxury, and get him nice. They just show up.

John: Yeah, and then she can propose to them.

Nicole: Yeah, there you go. That's, I mean, like that sounds ridiculous, but a part of me thinks that some of these men that are very seriously in this like, "I want to be taken care of" mode, would want to be proposed to. Do you not agree with that?

John: Men want to be taken care of in a different way than women want to be. But I understand of these, the men these days that you see in the comments section and stuff, you don't think that they would enjoy being proposed to?

Nicole: I think a lot of them would because I've heard many comments from guys that say, "Why do I have to ask the girl out, pay for the date?"

John: Yeah, pay for the date, but even ask the girl out. Why do I have to go and approach her? Why don't they approach me? Why is it got to be on me? That's actually a lot more men saying that stuff than you people probably think.

Nicole: It's so weird though because these same guys that have this mentality, they're very much against feminism. But I guess they don't understand feminism because that is feminism, is literally a woman asking you out instead.

John: Yeah, it's the same. You're being equal. So, if a woman's asking you out, she's, yeah, that's what it is.

Nicole: So, I mean, I'll put myself in their shoes and empathize with them for a bit. I'm sure it is rough being constantly rejected and like putting yourself out there and being rejected a lot. I'm sure that that's where a lot of this stems from. However, like you said, I think it goes back to men and women being different sort of thing. Like, I'm not saying they should do it because they're different, but as a man, you've talked about this in other ways too, like you develop this manliness, this stoic way, and things.

Speaker 1: Like that, and it's easier for you guys to do that because you're not as emotional as women, right? Like, if women had to go out and put themselves out there, it would utterly destroy women because they are just so emotional. They have emotions about all these other things, and now you're going to add being rejected by men 24/7. Which, yeah, you know, women do get rejected by men when men ghost them, when they break up with them for stupid reasons like, "You don't ski," and other things like that. So, women do still feel the rejection, and they do still put themselves out there. But I'm just saying, if women put themselves out there and they faced the ghosting and stuff like that from men, they wouldn't be able to handle it like men could handle it. The thing is, though, that if a man, for the most part, puts himself out there and a woman goes on a date and agrees to continue to date him, she's probably dating you for a relationship. Like, women are pretty loyal to people that they actually enjoy, and they will see it through, right? A lot of times, even if it's not the best situation. So, you know, at least as a man, if you're putting yourself out there and you make it a certain distance, she's not going to leave you unless something bad happens, most of the time. I'm not saying that's how it always is. You're going to face it upfront because women want relationships. That's why, you know, once you're in there, you're in there. But as a woman, it's scary because you can like a man, and you go on all these dates, and you like him, but he could just up and leave because he doesn't want the relationship part. So, like I said, I get the rejection part, where that probably is why men are like, "I want to be taken care of. Why can't she pay for my meal?" But at the same time, you do have to develop your manliness, your stoicism, like all of these things that help you be a better man, and your emotional intelligence. Don't think you don't have to, you know, get that up to par because that allows you to be able to support her emotionally, which is important to her. And rejection is part of that. Rejection is part of rights of passage for a man to be a man. You cannot not have rejection. You have to face those things. That's what's going to make you stronger. That's what it's going to make you more resilient as a man. That's why there is a difference. Women are more fragile. They're not going to handle rejection as well, and especially if a woman had to go up to 10 different guys at a bar and get rejected by nine of them, it's not going to be good. Well, you don't want a woman to not be fragile because then she's hard, and she's like a manly, right?

Speaker 2: Exactly. So, you know, it's what you get when you get the yin and yang. Like, you get the fragile with someone that will protect the fragile, and you need both of those things, right, for the fluidity and the dynamics in a relationship. I forget what you usually call it, like the... it's like balances each other out. It's... you need that opposition to create the harmony, right? Because otherwise, if you're dating a woman that's hard and you're hard, yeah, you're just bros.

Speaker 1: Exactly. And if you're a woman who's emotional and you're dating a man who's emotional, you're just women having a sleepover. You need the polarity, sexual polarity, in order to have that. And that's why, also, like, I mean, that's obvious that I disagree that, or would say, a woman should not propose to a man. And there's a lot of reasons. First of all, if you're a woman in that position and the guy is not doing it, what's... what do they say? "If he wanted to, he would," right? That's the phrase. But it's true. If he wanted to, he would. And then, second of all, you need to walk away from those situations as a woman. If a man is stalling it out and he's not proposing, but what if you have kids? Look, you shouldn't be in that situation. What if you love him? You shouldn't be having kids with a guy that you're not married to. What if you think you guys are heading towards marriage and he's just delayed it for eight years? So, you got to have some kind of thing that makes him make a decision about this because what is he doing?

Speaker 2: I agree with you. Or, I mean, in that case, then you have to give up the dream. You got to say, "I'm okay with not getting married," which is okay if you choose that choice. That's fine. But if you're set on the marriage and it's not happening, you have to walk, and you should be walking before you get into a more complicated situation. Don't make it so complicated.

Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's not progressing towards that, if you don't see him making those steps, and he doesn't do it, then you got to walk. Don't threaten him, though. Don't say, "Hey, if you don't propose to me, if we don't get married, then I'm going to leave." Just leave.

Speaker 2: Well, is there anything else that you would recommend that a woman can do to light a fire under a guy's ass to get engaged, besides walk away? Like, if they have kids, 'cause that's obviously harder.

Speaker 1: Like, I agree with you that that is the thing that should be done, and it should be done before it got more complicated. I 100% agree with you on that. However, for like, people in these sort of situations, and especially the women who want to be engaged, they want, you know, to have an official family with this guy that they're with, is there anything else that they can do besides walk away? Like, is there... I don't know, something you could say to men, either? Like, something, you know... 'Cause like, I personally know some of these women, and I can empathize with where they're coming from, right? You know, 'cause I know it's out of a place of like, they love this person. That's why they're with them for so long. That's why they've had children with this person. And it gets to a point where they've been together so long where it is hard to leave because you're like, "Maybe he will finally do it." But also, you don't know if he's going to finally do it, you know what I mean? And you know he loves you, but you're at the same time like, "Well, why isn't he doing it?" And that's why they start being like, "Oh, you know what I'd love for Christmas? Is a ring box," or something, you know. They start throwing the jokes around like that. Or like, I said before when we first started this episode about the woman proposing, they start joking that they'll do it or something like that. And so, and that's not a good plan. That's not good. That doesn't help the situation.

Speaker 2: I mean, I agree. I mean, the first thing I would say is, I still have to reiterate, don't get into the situation. Don't have kids with a man that you're not married to, you know, if you can avoid it. Don't even move in unless it's going to progress in that direction, you feel like it's moving in that direction.

John: But if you are in the situation, first of all, if you're not in the situation, you don't have kids, then just leave. If you don't have kids, leave. I mean, I agree, period. For if you don't have kids that are like intertwined and you're going to be intertwined no matter what, married or whatever, at this point because you have a child, then yeah, leaving is 100%. And don't threaten and don't say if you don't, you know, don't give him a timeline, don't give him a deadline. But really quick, when would you say that? Because I would say like five years is way too long. Five years is way too long. I think like at five, more than five years is way too long. It's more, I would say around the two to three year mark is where if you've been dating someone for 3 years, you already, you know, you really...

Nicole: You should know in one year, but yeah, let's give three years at the cutoff. That's what I, that's my cutoff. Is hey, if he hasn't done it in three years, he's probably not going to do it. I mean, the only reason I say five, right, is because my brother and his fiance actually have been together for like 5 years. Yeah, but she was young when they, and he was young too, you know, when they first got together. Right, so for them, I feel like it was good that they got sort of through their 20s, for the most part, you know, and like saw that they could do life together. Or especially even younger, like if you're with somebody that you've been with since high school or something, I can see a longer time together before engagement because you guys are like handling being a child going into the real world, like becoming an adult in your own person. And I do feel like you should probably see if you could weather that storm. Well, that's fine if you're young and if, as a woman, you're okay with...

John: That, right. But if you're, as a woman, you're not okay with that, cutoff is three years.

Nicole: Yeah, I guess that makes like you're okay with it. But I just want to throw in there that I feel like if you are younger, it is more important to have a little bit more time, which is why I thought the five years. But also, if you're older, like you know, when we first got together, I was in my late 20s. So I was like, I'm at a point where I would get married. So it didn't take as long. Well, we had a good connection. We spent a lot of time together, so it didn't feel like weird that it wasn't like years and years. And in just in general, though, as a woman, you should not draw it out. I would say that even the five years, I'd be cautious because you only got so many five-year blocks in your life, especially in your young life, and you don't want to waste any of those five-year blocks because that's a little bit long to test the thing out. A few years, three years is plenty of time to know, to test it out, and see what's happening here. Because hey, if you start at 20 and you go to 25, and then that doesn't work out, and then you go from 25 to 30, you're kind of done. You don't have a lot more of those. You got a 30 to 35. I mean, in a lifetime, you got three shots at it. But I'm not saying for women who are just like stuck in a situationship, and it's hard because what do you give a man an ultimatum like we've been together 5 years, if you don't marry me soon, I'm walking out. No ultimatum, that's what I'm saying, like you just walk out. You don't talk about it. No, you don't talk about it because, well, here's what you do. Do you break up, or you just walk out?

Nicole: Well, okay, first of all, you make it clear that you would like to get married. Mhm. That you don't have to say, don't do tacky stuff like talk about, I hope I get a ring for Christmas, or like that kind of stuff is just aggravating because it feels like nagging. It's not good. And then also takes away from when he does do it because then he's like, oh well, she just begged me for it, and then I did it.

John: Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. Instead, just drop some subtle hints like, oh, wouldn't I look good in this? Wouldn't my left hand look good with a beautiful ring on it?

Nicole: No, that's just like, I just, if you're like, I'm so excited to spend my life together with you, love to have a family, or you know, you're talking about future things that make him feel good. Bad when you say, I hope I get a ring for Christmas, it makes him feel bad on him, and he might have already planned something, and then now he's like, crap, I'm not doing it at Christmas. Is she not going to like it, or what's going to happen? So, I agree with that. Like, he just needs to know that you're down for it and that that is the kind of life and future that you want. Right, that's it. Not a lot of pressure, even if you have a talk about your future, and you could talk about, yeah, it'd be great if someday we get married, and you have that talk. I think that's fine as long as you're, you know, you're not putting the pressure, you're just having that talk, and you're both agreeing to that. Now you've already talked about and agreed to it, even at that point.

John: Well, I would say that you need to know that you both want to actually get married before you even get super far down the line. Like I know with me and you, you weren't 100% sure, but I just wanted to be with you. So, you know, I didn't, did I want to get married? Yes. Yeah, but I wanted to be with you more than I wanted to have a wedding. So that's why I made that choice. But I feel like you told me, you said, you...

Nicole: Yeah, you said, I will be with you even if we don't get married.

John: Right, but, and how could you not marry someone who says that? But I feel like, you know, if you are a woman where it's like, you really do want to get married, that is important to you, you do need to try to find a man that also wants to get married. Because if you're dating a man who's like, I'm absolutely not getting married, which is normally men who have been through a divorce. Like, yeah, most men who haven't been through a divorce would get married. It's normally men who have been divorced who are like, I'm not getting married again. So, still have the conversation.

Nicole: Yeah, exactly. But you need to be on the same page as that. You need to be with a man, if it's really important to you to get married, who also wants to get married. Right, and that conversation looks different because that conversation is, do you see yourself getting married? Do you like to get married someday? Not, you need to marry me, otherwise, I'm walking. Right, that's the thing. But regardless, so now the stage has been set. He knows what you want. He knows that you're down for it. Hey, if the time ticks by and you're being patient, and three...

John: Years pass by, just walk out, break up, and then you can say, "Look, I didn't see that it was going anywhere at this point." But then, what if he tries to propose after?

Nicole: Okay, that's okay. But you think a woman should accept that because I would tell women they need to think about it and make sure he's not doing it just because he lost you and that he'll treat you well.

John: That's good. If he recognizes a loss so much that he's like, "Yeah, I'm going to marry you," I know some people might not agree with this, but let me tell you why that is good. It's because you didn't threaten him, you didn't give him an ultimatum, he didn't feel like he had to do it. But when he lost you, then he decided that he now analyzed his life and said, "Wow, this is the best thing that ever happened to me. I do want this life." It's pushing him without pushing him because you're not being a bully, you're not being threatening or nagging or any of that stuff, or giving an ultimatum. You're just living your life and saying, "Hey, I'm not going to accept this."

Nicole: I guess I would, if I was in that position, be like, "Well, why didn't you do it before?" I think it's hard to believe he's doing it for a good reason because I get what you're saying. You didn't pressure him; this is his decision. But at the same time, you did do something that really affected him. Is he doing it because he just wants the life he had back, or is it because he did want to get married to you? Because a man who wants to get married to the woman he's with has a plan to marry her. He knows he's going to marry her, right? So, what are these men doing?

John: Is he unsure about her as a wife? Is he one of the guys who maybe hasn't been divorced but doesn't want to get married, or he's afraid of his assets being lost? He's unsure. If the right woman walks in, a man will marry her in one week. Then why is he with her for so long? Because he's unsure. He's not sure if he can do better. If he can, why would he have a child with her then? Because in those instances, it's comfortable. If he's unsure, if a man is sure, a man will marry a woman in a week if he's sure.

Nicole: But does he know that he's still tied to that woman for the rest of his life if he has a child? Not everyone thinks so. He doesn't care about that. People smoke cigarettes; they're going to die of lung cancer or heart disease; they still do it. This is a child's life. I know they don't think forward, even though they know the consequences. They don't actually internalize the consequences at the time. So, the fact is that he's just not sure. Otherwise, he would. Especially, you don't think there's any other case why he isn't doing it?

John: No, because look, here's the thing. Especially if you've had the conversation with the guy already, right? And he says, "I want to get married." If a whole bunch of time goes by, three years go by, and he's not asked to marry you or ask you to marry him, at that point, he's made the conscious choice. So, you have to hold your value higher and say, "I don't want to be with someone who doesn't really, really want to be with me." Because if he wanted to, he would. He doesn't really, really want to. He might be convinced to marry you, but is that what you want?

Nicole: Yeah, you know what I mean? So, that's why if you throw an ultimatum or anything, he's like, "No one's ever going to be the person who makes him want to marry somebody in a week." And he loves the woman, and he loves things about her, and he wants to be with her. That's obviously why he's been there for eight years.

John: Yeah, but that's not committed. That's not really putting it all on the line.

Nicole: I agree. But what would you say then, besides, you know, to these women walking away? Like, what are they supposed to do? Are they... So, you're saying that if he comes back and he's like, "I want to marry you," that they should just do it because he didn't get pressured, and he must really want to do it?

John: Yeah, because that might be the kick in the ass that he needs to realize. In fact, how do you tell... What I was going to say to the women that do have the children where the guy is not proposing is move out. See what he does. That'll scare... If she can't move out because they live together and they have like a dual income household, take the kids and move out temporarily. Go say, "I'm staying with my mom," or whatever. I mean, I'm all for the dramatics.

Nicole: Well, because, look, again, it's... I hear what you're saying, and I'm not disagreeing. You're devaluing yourself so much by letting a guy waste your time.

John: Yeah, but I think, and not be that committed to you.

Nicole: I agree with you. The thing is that I know that a woman loves him and wants to get married, and there's nothing she could do about the guy. And I know that's why she needs to leave because she can't control him. She can't get him to do anything that he doesn't want to do.

John: I hear you.

Nicole: Yeah, I guess it's just the part of me that, like, I just feel like they can't win because in my shoes, I don't know if I would believe the guy actually is doing this because I'd be like, "Well, why didn't you do it before? Why does it take me leaving to make you understand? And do you really understand, and do you really love me if you didn't propose before?" And maybe that's just my woman brain going haywire.

John: But you're right, to a degree. However, if, let's say, three years have passed, or five years, or whatever, but let's just even just say three years, no matter what, you're going to have to deal with that question. Because no matter what, the fact is, let's say it's five years, he didn't do it. So, whether you walked out and now he wants to do it, or he does it six years later, even if he does it in year six, you're still going to be like, "Do you not like me that much? Why are you doing it now? Why didn't you do it before?" You're still going to have the exact same questions.

Nicole: Yeah, I guess you're right, you know.

John: So, that's why it's just... It's a hard thing, but at the same time, it's indicating the amount that he values you and the commitment level that he has. And I know a lot of guys are going to lose their crap about this episode, but men shouldn't be doing this to women, FYI. Like, they shouldn't be keeping a woman for eight years that they don't plan to marry if that's what she wants, and you're telling her that.

John: That's what you want, and then you keep her around for eight years or maybe even more, right? And do nothing. I have told several of my coaching clients, when they've had the girl and they've been like, "Oh, she adores me. She's willing to do whatever and keep the arrangement however it is. She wants to get married, but she's okay with that, and I'm not sure if I want to really settle down with her, but you know, she's even gonna let me do my own thing on the side." It doesn't matter, all kinds of stuff I've heard. I'm like, "Dude, if you've been with her for a year, two years, whatever it is, if you're not planning on marrying her, it doesn't matter if she says it's okay, let her go. Why? Because you're the man. Because you're supposed to look out for her, and she's not looking out for herself right now. She's like a drug addict that just needs a fix. She's not making rational decisions because she's just so in love with you that she's going to say whatever. She's like, 'Do whatever, hey, you want to have an extra girlfriend, go ahead.' All this kind of stuff. She doesn't really want that. She just wants you so much, loves you so much. So, how can you do such a disservice to her by letting her waste her best years? Don't waste a woman's time. And that's why I tell guys all the time, it's like, look, for you, if you spend five years, six years, seven years in this relationship, it doesn't matter because what, you'll be 35 or you'll be 40, and you can go and you can date a girl in her 20s or in her early 30s or whatever, and you can have a family and get married and have kids. But you've got a girl that is 24 or 25, and you're wasting four or five of her years where now she's 30 or 30-something or whatever, and she's not going to have the same opportunities to find the same kind of guy that she does now. And it's not a knock on women or the age thing. I'm not trying to be mean in any way. I'm just saying that you have to understand that a woman's youth is more valuable to her than a man's youth is to him. And so, if you're wasting a woman's youth, you're doing a major disservice to her. And that's why the whole thing about like, you have to make a decision as a man. You have to know as a man that hey, if you're going to date a girl for a long period of time, it's your responsibility to do something or to quit. You cannot just... And she's because women are romantics. Women are going to stick with you. They're going to, even though you're not giving them the thing and the security that they want, need. So, that's the thing about it. A guy has to take the responsibility. He has to step up and be a man and realize that even if he loves this girl, even if he wants to stay with her, he's not doing the best thing for her.

Nicole: I agree with that a hundred percent. And I would say, to add to yours, though, that I think anybody should leave anybody if you can't see a future with them. Absolutely. I agree that it is more important for a man to leave a woman because I agree with you that a woman will stick through a lot of stuff until it gets really, really bad, and that's when she leaves. But also, women, if you're with a guy and you don't really want to be with him, and you're just settling or whatever you're doing with him, and you know you're not really happy, and you know you don't really see this going anywhere, or that if it does go somewhere, it's not really what you want, you need to let him go. He doesn't deserve that. And I know it's harder for women to do that because, like you said, they're, you know, they're trying to get married, women running out of, and a lot of pressure, and so they do end up making these decisions. But if you don't look at him and you're like, "I would have five little baby versions of him running around," he's not the one for you.

John: Right, exactly. And you deserve to let him go as well and be with somebody who wants to be with him. And that's exactly why I'm saying what I'm saying about women walking out too, is because if the guy is not so infatuated with you as a woman, like, "I want to marry this woman. I want to romance her. Treat her like a lady. I want these things," then he just doesn't value you enough, and he's probably never going to. It's not going to suddenly happen that way. So, the more time that you're wasting, it's just wasted time because even if he does someday, even if it's 10 years down the road or whatever, he's already indicated that his value for you is lower than what you should accept as a standard. Now, maybe you're okay with that, but I don't think it's a good plan. And now, as far as the woman proposing, wait, I have a good one with that to go back to that because, you know, we're in the same area, so it's still good we talked about this. But going back to that, so I know you don't think a woman should ever propose, and I agree with you, right? But what if the tables are turned, and the woman did not treat the man as well as she should, but there were still moments of like love and things like that, and you guys break up, and she wants to show you how much she loves you and wants to be with you by proposing to you? So, she breaks up with you. Well, you break up with her because she didn't treat you very well as a man, and then she's like, "Crap, like that was the man of my dreams. I was a jerk woman," and she's like, "I'm going to make it up to him by showing my devotion to him by proposing to him."

John: I literally just recorded a short video, a reel yesterday, where I said, "If a woman, if you break up with a woman, and then she comes back to you, and she's like, 'I'll give you everything that you wanted,' and she knows what the things are, and she's like, 'I'm going to change. I'm going to do these things now,' I was like, 'Run away from her,' because she knows the things that she didn't do, and now the whole now she's willing to give them to you. She didn't give them to you because she wanted to. She gave them to you because you took away from her." So, it's kind of a very similar thing. If you're bad to a guy, and then you think you're going to propose, that's true because I said that she was maybe not treating him the nicest, but yeah, it's just not a good idea. What if he broke up with her because he's going to school in a different state, and he loves her, and she loves him, but they're long distance?

Nicole: Sure, get back together with him. Don't propose to him. It's a man's job to propose.

John: It comes down to the fact that women are the guardians of sex and men are the guardians of commitment. You can't give something that you want but don't have to give. Like, a woman wants commitment, so she can't give the commitment to a man because she already wants him to give it to her. You're just giving it to somebody who now has a lot of commitment over there, but he hasn't given you any commitment. Does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah, exactly. It's not like you're here's commitment, and he hasn't given you any, so now you have some commitment. I'm going to give you commitment, but here's my commitment, so give me some back. It feels like if a man buys you a PS4 for your birthday and he's like, "Oh, look, I got you a PS4 and I even got my favorite football game for you to play." It's like, what are you doing? It's not a good look. You're lowering yourself. There's a reason why guys don't like this anymore either. A man gets down on one knee to propose to a woman. You're lifting her up. For a woman to lower herself to propose to a man, not a good look. You don't need to lower yourself down to that level. A woman is supposed to be cherished and honored.

John: I agree. Men do need to show their commitment in a bigger way by asking the woman out on a date and by asking her to marry him because he is the one that doesn't necessarily want commitment by nature. So, it means more when he comes to you and is telling you, "Please commit to me," which is basically like, "Will you marry me? Will you commit to me?" That means he's serious about it. A woman's always serious about commitment, so he needs to show you that, to prove to you that he wants to commit to you the same way you want to commit to him.

Nicole: Exactly. It's just like if a guy went out on a date with you and then he was like, "Tell you what, I'm going to give you sex tonight." Surprise, surprise. You can't give away commitment to expect commitment or give away sex to get sex. And then, with the whole women equality thing, men and women are different. There's masculine and feminine. Trying to make it equal and saying, "Oh, a woman can do whatever a man does," sure, she could, but it's not advisable. It doesn't make a good relationship. It doesn't create the polarity in the relationship. You want to be feminine as a woman and masculine as a man. That's why the man has to take the step up and do the proposal.

John: I agree with that. The only way it would make sense for a woman to propose, based on everything we said, would be if she were just out here giving it out to everyone and cheating on him. Then, she came to him and was like, "I want you to marry me, and I'll never be with any other man again." But I would tell the guy to get some self-worth. That's the only way it would make sense. But that's still not even proposing. That's just saying, "I would settle down for you." But if that were true, she would do it from the beginning. Then the proposal from the woman would be meaningful because it would mean that she is giving commitment, which is something that she has not.

Nicole: Right. That's why I'm saying, it just doesn't make sense. You can't even see that scenario ever even making sense.

John: Yeah, because even the man should have self-esteem. That's the one, self-esteem by The Offspring. Thank you, mysterious voice. But that's the scenario there. It's just not a good plan. And like I said, if you're doing it because you think of women's equality and all this stuff, it's not going to be good. First of all, if you don't think the guy's going to take it well, if he's a masculine man, he's going to say no. And it's going to be embarrassing. But what if he says yes? Do you want to marry a guy that's going to say yes to a woman proposing to him? It would make a woman feel loved, but as a woman, it would make me feel lesser for having to be the one to ask.

John: Right. So, that's the thing. It's not going to be good. And the thing is, okay, I tell guys this all the time, if you're going to propose to a woman, you already need to know what the answer is. If you don't know the answer, what are you doing? It's crazy when I see these proposals where the woman clearly is hesitating or says no, or she says yes, but you know that she's not sure. It's normally those dysfunctional relationships. It's the same sort of relationships where a guy asks and he doesn't know the answer is the same as the ones where the woman is asking. Something's dysfunctional, or it's like, "I'm going to lose you. I'm trying to literally lock you down because I'm afraid I'm losing you right now." So, I'm going to try and do this thing, especially publicly, so it's really hard for you to say no. It's ridiculous.

John: The same type of thing, except that, look, if a woman, as a man, you should know if a woman would say yes, and then you can propose. That's fine. But as a woman, if you know that the man would say yes, then he would have done it. So you don't know what he's going to say, so you shouldn't do it because you don't know what he's going to say, right? But maybe they don't fear it as much because they haven't been rejected in that way as much. I don't know, or they just love him so much that it's worth a shot. I don't know. And if you're doing it, like I said, in order to because he's waited too long, and so you're just going to get it done, that's... I mean, I only even know of one circumstance personally where a woman I knew was going to propose. Yeah, and the relationship was not functional at all. If you really want to emasculate a man, I think, to the highest degree you could possibly do, propose for him because he's just not getting it done. That will really emasculate a man, right? It's like you're just stepping up and like, "Let me do this for you. Here you go. Here's the ring." It was trying to show him how much she loved him, but it wasn't like that isn't how it actually works in a man's brain, but it works that way in a woman's brain. Give him sex, lots of sex, crazy sex. Well, you know the situation I'm talking about, and that it wasn't an option, so all she was trying to give him the thing that he supposedly wanted too. Okay, well, when if you want to show a man that you love him, it's yeah, it's very easy. It's not that hard. So, I'm not saying that's the only way that you can show a man that you but I'm just saying like that's not the thing. Not proposing to them does not men generally feel like a woman loves them, that they're with. We've talked about this before, and in the book we were reading also, that they generally feel that a woman that doesn't respect them, right? Oh, I thought you were going to add that you don't know if you recommend that book anymore.

Nicole: I'm not, yeah, I'm not sure on that, that love and respect because it is very highly on the we're still read it obviously it's more on the religious side than I even thought that it was. And without getting too far into it, I think when you use, well, just as a short, and maybe we could do an episode on it, but if you say that as a woman, if you say the reason why I'm respecting you is because God says so, but you're really a piece of shit, okay, that's not it. It doesn't do anything for me, right? If you say, "I respect like God says that I should, but even if he didn't, I would do it. I would submit to you and respect you because are exactly that's meaningful." So, that's the thing, is if you're doing something because you're supposed to do it, it has no meaning to it, right? So, well, I think we covered should a man propose. I mean, a woman propose to a man, and all the men out there who haven't proposed yet, you better do it now, or she might walk out the door. So, and I think we did a good job of explaining why men should also propose, you know, the reasoning behind it. So hopefully, guys understand that and won't wait 5 years to propose to the girl they're with if they want to marry them, or they'll break up and, you know, let the woman go find someone who does want to marry her. So now for the exciting segment of the podcast, it's my week, and it is, it's actually rather exciting this week, I think, which is that a very we had an interesting sort of argument which I learned some things, you know, we learn some things from that, but we always learn some things, but it's, it's uh, interesting circumstances of me doing flips in our living room, front flips, front flips on the ground. So our daughter and teaching our daughter to do front flips, she was on the ground.

John: She was asking about how to do a front flip, right? So she's trying to learn a front flip in like two months, and this girl's never done a front flip, and I was like, you know, you could learn to do it in this way where you need to go to like a gym, right? Where someone will help spot you and things like that.

Nicole: Nope, John's like, "Let's watch a YouTube video on 5 minutes to get a front flip." I could do front flips. I could do back flips on the TR Le and off of diving boards, you know. I've been doing that for a long time, and I've done some front flips on the ground before, a long time ago, but so I was like, all right, well, let me try to I, I tried to do one front flip, like just a complete front flip on the ground in our living room, and I mean, I flipped all the way over, but then I slammed my butt and legs into the ground hard, yeah.

Nicole: And as the woman of our household, I was like, this is very dangerous. You could fall on your neck and break your neck, and worst case scenario, die. And then I started flipping into the bean bag that we have in the living room, and Sophia was doing it too, and we were working on ducking our head. And then I watched this how to do a front flip in five minutes YouTube video, and he said her right, and then the butt, what was it, what do you call it, the butt pop, the butt pop, right before when you do the front flip, and you whip your arms, you got to pop your butt up exactly, so that you get all the way around. It's like you got to run, you jump, do a hop, and you do it at an angle so that you go up, slam dunk with your hands, butt pop, and then butt pop, right? And so I was practicing the butt pop part of it, and I butt popped on the bean bag, and that caused me to not go as high, and so my head went pretty much slam dunk almost. It was so close to you landing on your neck, like sliding off the bean bag bag onto my neck. I mean, it was very close to the point where I'm like, oh my freaking God. I look over at our daughter, and she's like, oh my freaking God. And I was like, this is exactly why you don't do front flips in the house. It looked scary.

John: I know it looked scary. Me being in the situation, having my hands where they were, and feeling myself slide down the thing, I didn't feel like, I mean, there are sometimes I've had some close calls in life where I've been like, oh, this didn't feel like it to me, but it probably looked like it.

Nicole: It did look like it. And I'm sitting here like, oh my God, you know, 'cause I'm a woman, this is what we do. I'm like, oh my God, what if he did actually break his neck, and then literally me and Sophia watched him die in our own house, and we have the trauma of that for our entire life, and he's never going to be here with us anymore doing crazy things like trying to do front flips in the house, yeah. And all that goes to my mind, and I'm just like freaking out, and then I.

John: I'm like, why did he have to do the front flips? Because I told him he could land on his neck, and he almost landed on his neck, even though he thinks it's not a big deal. I'm thinking of all these things, yeah, and I kind of blew it off because I didn't think, you know, it's not that big of a deal. Like, you know, I'm a man, I'm used to risk and danger, and it's not, you know, just my everyday. I'd risk my life, well, maybe not every day, but it's not as big of a deal to me.

Nicole: So anyway, we end up going upstairs, and then I could tell that you're upset. And so, I said I'm upset about what happened, and then I just handled it wrong. I got upset that you were upset at me because I was like, you should be concerned about me, not upset about me. But then I realized that the way that I handled it then was not being as loving and being loving and open. And then I realize that like a lot of times when I get upset, then I'm not being mean, I'm not calling names, not saying, but I'm just not being... it's like more hostile, like angry without... it's not anger in a way that most people know, but it's like, you know, how when people talk to you in a hostile way when they're angry, but they're not yelling at you, and they're not calling you names, but they're just like, why can't you do this sort of thing?

John: It's like that, and you would be like, why don't you just hug me or something? And I'm like, do you think that saying it to me like that makes me want to hug you? Like, I know you need one, but there's another part of me that's like, why is he being so mean about needing something so loving, you know? So, like, we were kind of stuck in a stalemate sort of thing. And I had had a traumatic experience in the past that I was in the Vegas shooting, and when I had, you know, anyway, I had experienced a lack of empathy around the situation I was in, where someone was angry at me for being in this situation that could have hurt where I could have gotten killed, but instead of empathetic. So, I had a little bit of an issue around that. But all said and done, I think, you know, I learned that just in those situations, that I just need, and it's the hardest thing for men, like I, you know, I say it all the time, I coach guys on it, it's like you just need to realize that whatever emotion a woman's having, just let her have the emotion. Like I think the empathy for that emotion actually was you remembering that you lead me, right?

Nicole: Right, yeah. So because we talked about it, and when I was like, I'm upset, if you had talked to me instead of kind of like giving me the cold shoulder, which I've done, you know, I'm a cold shoulder gal too, so I'm not acting like I never do that or have never done it. Like, you would have led by example, right?

John: Right, and you know, especially in our dynamic, you are the leader, and I do trust you, and I'm going to follow you, right? And so, unfortunately, that means I'm also going to follow you down the wrong path if we go down a wrong path. Like, I'm accountable for my own behaviors, I understand that, right. And in that moment, I honestly kind of felt like a different dynamic because I felt like, and I told you this, that you know, it's almost like when a wife is so upset and talking to a husband that way, you know, like hostile, that sort of way, that they just shut down. That is what I felt, shut down.

Nicole: Yeah, and you know, I tried not to react to that. I tried to still give you whatever you needed in that moment, but I did shut down, and it was hard for me to break out of that because, like you've talked about, and we've talked about before, it's harder as a woman to turn a man around. So like, even if I had done everything right and tried to take you to a different place, you probably wouldn't have gotten there because it wasn't on your terms. You're the leader.

John: Yeah, like you listen to me, you do, like we have very deep conversations, and you care about my opinions and things like that, but I don't think I could have led you as easily out of this because you are the leader in our house and in our relationship. So, it's important, though, especially if you have this dynamic. It's important anyway, but if you have a dynamic like ours where I get that a man has trouble dealing with how women react to things, like I understand that, but you also have to remember that you have to lead the conversation, and you should be able to do it easier than her because you guys aren't as emotional, right?

Nicole: Exactly, but everybody makes mistakes. Like, I reacted to you being hostile towards me, I got hostile at times. So, it's like, we're not perfect, yeah, and nothing big, it doesn't like we're screaming and yelling and calling each other names, it's just we got into a long discussion again where we don't sleep because we have a long discussion, but then at the end, you know, we resolved, we figured out, like I said, I figured out some of the things that I still needed to work on, and then I was able to express a little bit more clearly about that I felt more blamed for something that could happen to me than the empathetic response, and that that's, and so one that I still don't have maybe as much of a reaction that you are expecting me to have, and we had to have a conversation about why that isn't the default, but that I need to work on that, you know? And I have my part in this too, like every sort of thing, this is not one person's fault or...

John: Yeah, but what you said about the leadership part of it, I think that's the biggest part of it, is like leading in the right direction because that's the thing that I think it's really hard for men to understand or to even remember, even if they understand it, is that whatever direction that you take it, that's the direction, right? And so, it's like, if you want a good response, a calm response, and a loving response, let's say a loving response because sometimes guys can be really calm, the woman's going crazy, and the calmer they are, the more crazy it makes her because there's not a loving response, it's a cold calm. So, if you want a loving response, give a loving response. Lead in that direction, and then you're going to, and obviously, don't tolerate disrespect or someone yelling at you or calling you.

John: Names you could be like, you know, I'm not going to continue this conversation until you've calmed down and you stop talking to me in this way. It's not like you shouldn't have boundaries, but if a woman, especially, is like, "I'm upset about this thing," if you approach it as, "Okay, let me hear her out," even if I don't agree or it wasn't that big of a deal, the second you say those sorts of things as your immediate response, then it's World War II about to unleash. Just because she feels invalidated, like her feelings feel invalidated. And you're entitled to feel like, "Okay, it wasn't that big of a deal," because in your perspective, it didn't seem that scary because you felt in a different way by actually doing it than what me and, you know, Sophia saw. So, I was like, you know, as a guy, sometimes you're going through a maze, and you're like, "Which is the door? What thing do I need to do?" And it's like the answer is always the same. She just doesn't want you to fix it; she just wants you to know she just wants to know that you care about how she feels. That's it. That's the answer. If you're trying to do all this other stuff and you're trying to make this logical argument and blah, blah, blah, all you got to do is just say, "Oh, I'm sorry that you feel that way," or "Tell me more about how you feel. I care that you're upset." Not even accepting blame, it's just not fixing the problem, but it's such a difficult thing for... well, it's not your automatic response, so I get it.

Nicole: Yeah, but I did also learn that I am a fixer, a repairer, and so that's something that I realized was like, I don't know where exactly it came from, but I will literally, if there's something that's happened, I will literally chase down people and be like, "You have to fix this." And so, I'm trying to force the fix when other people need to... I need to let go and let people come and fix it. So, it's kind of a weird control issue that I didn't realize I had that was like a remnant of some things that I've worked through. So, I think because you're afraid to, because you felt like you've always been the fixer person, that if you don't do it, someone isn't going to do it. Because I think that's really where it stems from because you don't give people the time even to fix it. Well, like, it's on your timeline, right? Of like how long it should be, or like, "Okay, it's gone too long, so now I got to jump in and fix it."

John: Yeah, exactly. And because you think nobody else will do it, and that's also why it happens too because you're like, "Oh, it's been too long; they're not going to do it." You're assuming it's not going to get done, and so then you just jump in and do it. But then you're also trying to get somebody to do something, you know, that you don't have any control over somebody else.

Nicole: Exactly. And when you do that, then you kind of condition people. It's just like the same thing like we talk about with Sophia. If I, you know, we don't wake her up in the morning for school, and we don't nag her and tell her all these things, but if I'm always like, "You're going to be late for school, you got to get up, wake up," and I'm like, "Okay, get up, okay, you know, run," then she's going to rely on that. She never does. She doesn't have to have an alarm clock. It's hard to, like, let her, like, you're like, "Oh my God, there's no way she's going to make it. There's no way. Should I say something? No, I'm not going to say something." But that's exactly what I tend to do when with relationship problems, with any rel... I'm like, "I got to repair it; they're not going to do the right thing." It also shows you care. I mean, it is like a controlled sort of thing that is going on, but it means you care because you do want to fix it, and it means you care when we don't want her to get the consequences, you know, because we're like, "Come on, you know, should we say something? Should we hint at it?" But at the same time, it also steps on the person you care about's toes in both of the situations. So, yeah, and also, just, you know, don't do front flips in the living room. So, there you go. That's it. Don't do front flips in the living room. Hey, and if you haven't already, put a review on Apple iTunes on the podcast. You can do it anywhere; that's fine. Does Spotify have reviews?

Nicole: I think it has reviews, yeah.

John: If you put one, follow us, like, and subscribe.

Nicole: Yeah, all the things. We'll see you next week.