Nicole [00:00:00]: One surefire way for your relationship to not work out is to open it up in whatever way. I feel like we can't talk about this without talking about porn. Be that visual or written. A lot of these extreme things that people feel like they have to introduce into their sexual lives stem from this. It has to get more and more extreme. It has to get more and more crazy. Logically, why did women's ankles make men get boners back in the day?

John [00:00:30]: It was because of the. The preponder of ankle jobs. Anyway, beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:59]: That's right.

John [00:01:00]: And today we're going to talk about

Nicole [00:01:03]: things that we don't do.

John [00:01:05]: Yeah. Yes. We're going to talk about what a bad idea it is to ever introduce someone else into your relationship, whether that be an open relationship or other forms of it. Because it's something that comes up a lot, especially in my coaching of men.

Nicole [00:01:26]: Yeah. Guys really like this idea a lot of the time. Not saying that women don't ever do, but.

John [00:01:31]: But it's definitely more so on the. On the guy side. And I always have to advise coaching clients against this. No matter how they lay it out or justify it or say she's okay with always ends up bad every single time. Right. And I think there's going to be some people that are going to disagree and be like, oh no, you can have these kind of non traditional relationships. I don't know why they're watching this podcast but to argue. But you can say that. But in reality, like maybe there's. I'm not saying there's not some case where someone's having a successful multi. Multi user right now.

Nicole [00:02:11]: Define successful relationship a certain way. I would say they're not having a successful relationship.

John [00:02:16]: And also in timespan. Right. It could be right. That like.

Nicole [00:02:19]: Yeah. Right now.

John [00:02:20]: Right now the shit hasn't hit the fan yet.

Nicole [00:02:23]: Yeah.

John [00:02:24]: But it's just. I think we're just not designed that way.

Nicole [00:02:28]: But it's funny because people think we are.

John [00:02:30]: They do. They think we are. Right.

Nicole [00:02:32]: But in order to have a deep. Which, like okay. To just to define a successful relationship.

John [00:02:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:40]: You have to have deep intimacy and connection and like you said in the other episode, trust all these things.

John [00:02:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:49]: That if you're really being honest, that an open relationship, you really can't have. And I, I say can't. It sounds very definitive, but at the same time, I mean that it's definitive because the only way is by being exclusive.

John [00:03:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:11]: Because once you break the, the trust in a certain way.

John [00:03:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:15]: Where you're involving other people, feelings with other people, are being involved in all that, or, you know, you're having to split your time between multiple people or introduce multiple people into your relationship, now your time is split between your partner and these other people.

John [00:03:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:32]: You can't actually foster the deep relationship that like a true intimate relationship where you feel like two are becoming one has like, I firmly believe that in non monogamous relationships, whatever they look like, you don't have that moment where to become one or four become one or however many wives you have.

John [00:03:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:56]: You're not going to have that because like, human wise, we don't have the capacity to connect with that many people. On that level.

John [00:04:10]: Yeah, on that level.

Nicole [00:04:11]: Because if you think about your relationships in your life, like you have your partner and then you have your family and you have your friends.

John [00:04:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:18]: If you really think about it, each relationship is slightly different, right?

John [00:04:22]: Yes.

Nicole [00:04:23]: And the way that you connect with them and love them is slightly different in every relationship. And so in order to have more than one, like soulmate connection, like partner for life, like we're going to grow old and die together.

John [00:04:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:41]: I just can't see where that is. That would be possible because now not only are you taking this person's everything into consideration and like you said in the previous episode, like, you would do anything for that person, now you're gonna add someone else that you would also do anything for. What if that conflicts with this person?

John [00:04:58]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:04:59]: But what if it, like, what if they just want you to be monogamous now, but you want to have your, you know, your party going on? Like, exactly. Like, it's just a good. Not possible.

John [00:05:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:11]: And I'm not trying to offend people because look, you can have non monogamous relationships, but you just have to accept that they're not going to be as deeply intimate and connected as a monogamous relationship is going to be.

John [00:05:25]: Yeah. I think that's just common sense. Like, I mean, I think that's a good way to put it because it's like we're not telling you what to do. You could do whatever you want to do.

Nicole [00:05:31]: Right.

John [00:05:31]: But you can't have this and that.

Nicole [00:05:34]: Right.

John [00:05:34]: It's just not possible.

Nicole [00:05:35]: You can't be like, they're my soulmates. Like.

John [00:05:37]: Right. And you can't have this. Like you said, you can't be like, I would do anything for this person with a smile on my face. Well, if you have two people and they're both asking you to do two different things, then that cannot exist. It's. It's a, It's a, A logical contradiction.

Nicole [00:05:52]: Well, and you got all these feelings. What if. Yeah, yeah, you're open now, but then what if one of them gets jealous and you don't like that one as much as the other one? Let's be real. Like, you're not going to love or like two separate people that you're being intimate with to the same exact level.

John [00:06:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:10]: There is going to be one that you like more and one that you don't. So, like, what if the one you like a little bit less is like, actually, I just want us to be together? And you would do that for this one, but not this one. It's. Again, I'm not saying you can't do it, but it's not going to be the type of relationship that we're talking about. When we talk about marriage, when we talk about two becoming one, when we talk about, like, completely trusting someone else to take care of you better than you take care of yourself. Like, that's not possible. With. When multiple people are involved. There's way too many cooks in the

John [00:06:45]: kitchen, and people will say, they'll make the argument. They'll say, okay, fine, I agree with you on the relationship sides, but we're just doing sex.

Nicole [00:06:53]: Then you better keep it at that, because it's. I mean, again, do I agree with this? Personally, I would not choose to do those things because, again, feelings can be involved, even if it's just sex. Like, people act like it's not. But when you involve multiple people, you don't know what their level of feelings are going to be.

John [00:07:12]: Oh, and there's. It's. It's a misnomer to think that it can ever be just sex.

Nicole [00:07:17]: That's true.

John [00:07:18]: Ever case.

Nicole [00:07:20]: There's always more to the picture, Right?

John [00:07:23]: It's like being, like, having a different kind of relationship that, let's say a business relationship with someone and you see them all the time and you're always transacting business with them and you're like, oh, they're not friends at all. They're just business, right? No. Someone that you interact with on the regular is going to be more than just business. Someone that you. That you have sex with on the regular is going to be more than just. And even if it's not on the regular.

Nicole [00:07:49]: Vulnerable.

John [00:07:49]: Yeah, you're.

Nicole [00:07:51]: Yeah.

John [00:07:51]: And you're still creating problems because there should be a degree of jealousy involved in your exclusivity with your partner. And so if you.

Nicole [00:08:04]: The healthy jealousy.

John [00:08:05]: Yeah. If you violate that monogamy of the relationship, even just in a sexual way, but not in an emotional way, if you could even make that distinction, but let's say that you could, then you are going to have feelings of jealousy. There's so many things that are going to come up, whether that be feelings of jealousy, feelings of potential inadequacy. Does this partner, do they like this sexual experience with this other person better than me? Are they more attracted to them than me? Do they wish that I was that person or had that length of appendage or whatever it is? Those things are going to come up and there's no way that you could not have those things come up. And so those are going to create rifts and issues. And even if you're not addressing them, you know, even if you're stuffing them down, they're still creating some degree of separation and insecurity and they're eroding trust. Because the more that you have those type of issues, the more that it's going to be difficult to have that level of intimacy. Right. Unless you're going to discuss all those things and then are you going to believe the answers to all of those questions? Like you're creating all of these. Like relationship is already difficult enough, can be difficult enough to navigate, but now you're creating all of these. Yeah. Landmines that, that you're going to step into that. That doesn't make any sense.

Nicole [00:09:32]: Right. You know, and like look like a two person relationship can end in divorce, can end in separation, can end in breaking up.

John [00:09:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:40]: But a monogamous or non monogamous relationship.

John [00:09:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:44]: It is almost guaranteed that it's going to end in some way that is not however many people you have in your polyamorous relationship being together.

John [00:09:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:55]: Like it's just a matter of time because like you said, there's just too many people think about friend groups even like, okay, that's multiple people hanging out. How many people have left the friend group or gotten in a fight with somebody and like, you know, half the friend group leaves and then new people come in. But then like maybe some old people leave. Like yeah, your friend groups change.

John [00:10:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:15]: Because it's a group, it's a group dynamic, like trying to get everybody to degree agree on one thing, especially if something goes wrong and like, yeah, okay. Whose side are you on? Like, that's gonna happen.

John [00:10:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:26]: In a polyamorous relationship as well. Or, you know, opening your relationship. I mean, sometimes it's not even like, you know, a group thing. Sometimes it is like a man or a woman being like, you know, I want to see other people as well. Which you basically just like, stuck the knife in the coffin. If you tell the person that you're with that you want to see other people or.

John [00:10:51]: Right. You're saying you're not enough for me is like, Right. Just as you know.

Nicole [00:10:54]: Right. Ken would be like, it's kind of over.

John [00:10:57]: Sad Ken.

Nicole [00:10:58]: Like, it's. It's kind of over. At that point, you already kind of messed it up.

John [00:11:02]: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And. And we know people there is like, I have had people that I have coached that have done that, and that has been in. You can't come back from that ever.

Nicole [00:11:14]: Trust is broken.

John [00:11:15]: Yeah. Because. Yeah. That now the person is always going to doubt whether that is the case or not or if you're going to

Nicole [00:11:21]: do it, even if you're like, come back and you're like, oh, no, I want to be with you. I figured out that I only want to be with you.

John [00:11:26]: Yeah. And a lot of times what happens is too, like, in. You know, there's a lot of different configurations or scenarios to this. But what I encounter the most, and some of it is because of some of the guys on the Internet that have sort of made this. As if this is the most alpha move to. To have is to have, you know, multiple. Multiple women, like, when you're married to one like that. And, hey, I was guilty of doing this thing. So I'm not going to, like, not here, not in this relationship, but in the past. So I better. I was.

Nicole [00:12:01]: Rodrigo, you got a banana cutter live.

John [00:12:07]: The last episode. Live.

Nicole [00:12:09]: Yeah.

John [00:12:11]: Turn on the live stream. But no, what happens is that a lot of guys will say, okay, she's fine with. It's a one way open relationship. Right. And they're like, she's fine with it. My wife is fine with it. She's okay with it. She'd rather have me. She's like. And what I have to tell them is a couple things is, one is that she's not fine with it. She's accepting it. It's just like the same thing where, like, if you had an employee, right. And you're like. And they have to pay a mortgage and you're their only source of income, and you're like, you need to work overtime. 60 hours. Like you need to work on Saturdays and Sundays. And then they're like, oh, yeah, they're fine with. They accepted it. Yeah, they're looking for another job right now. But in the meantime, while you just sprung this on them, they are going to agree to the thing.

Nicole [00:13:05]: But wait, this is kind of a joke, but I have to bring it up.

John [00:13:10]: Do it.

Nicole [00:13:13]: But what if you do anything for your husband and that's what he wants, and with a smile on your face, you have to do it.

John [00:13:19]: That's actually. It's funny. But also, I have to think about that one.

Nicole [00:13:24]: Obviously, that's not a man that's looking out for you. Obviously, you're still gonna feel like you have to.

John [00:13:29]: You misplaced your tr. I would say in that case, if he's. If he's. Because it's never going to be. Because. No. Well. And here's the thing. And that's good that you brought that up because, see, because the argument. And this is how I always counter these things when these guys say this is. I say, look, okay, so you're the man. You're the authority in a relationship. You love your wife. Right? Okay, so good.

Nicole [00:13:51]: Obviously not.

John [00:13:53]: They say so, but. So you cannot say, like, you might say that she's okay with it, but can you say this is in her best interest? Never. It's never in her best interest. Like, it's some. Some hoops that some people will jump is. Oh, well, because it will. It's. I will be sexually satisfied and she. And it won't be good for her if I'm not like, no, no, it's never. It's never what?

Nicole [00:14:18]: That's.

John [00:14:19]: There's some hoops. There's some hoops of.

Nicole [00:14:21]: That is not a hoop. That is a freaking. I don't even know what to call that.

John [00:14:26]: It'd be better for her overall. Our sex is better together because it's. It reinvigorates our sex life. Because whatever. I've heard them all. But the point is that no matter what it comes down to, you cannot say that it's in her best interest. So you as a man are not serving your wife in the best way. I even had one, I think I've talked about on the podcast before. An example of a coaching client of mine where he had a girlfriend, long term committed relationship that he was going to break up with her because he was moving and like, he was also focused on this business and she was like, no, no, no, you can see other women, you can do whatever. I just want to like Maintain our relationship and you can, like, live your life there. And. And he was like, oh, yeah, Like, I'm doing this for her because the alternative is breaking up, and she doesn't want to, so she'd rather me be with other women or whatever. And I was like, look, you as the man, right? You're older than her. She looks up to you. She treats you as an authority, whatever. You sometimes have to make a choice that is in the person who's in your care's best interest, even if it's against their will in the sense that they don't want this. But you know, what's best for them. Is it best for her in life that she waits around for you for four years or whatever while you go and do your thing and be with other women? You know, I'm saying. And she becomes exclusive to you, but she stays.

Nicole [00:15:55]: And also do whatever somebody wants with a smile on their face. The woman. Or does it only work one way?

John [00:16:01]: It means like, no, it doesn't, because she wants him. No, no, that. That's. That, that's. That's different. Like, I get what you're saying, but. But what I mean is, like, I

Nicole [00:16:11]: had to do both angles because we talked about the other one with the guy wanting to open it, but also she wanted to try to make it work.

John [00:16:18]: Yeah. Well, the thing is, like, you still have to be choosing as a man what is best for your partner. Right. Like, if you're in charge of the relationship and you're the. The one who is leading the relationship, you still have to make the choice that is. Is best for the other. Other person for the entire relationship and for the other person.

Nicole [00:16:37]: But I get that. But it also sounds like, though, now that when it comes to a man, a woman does whatever, but when it comes to vice versa, man gets to decide. Which is not very on brand with what we just said.

John [00:16:52]: Yeah, I think because it's like, there's the.

Nicole [00:16:55]: I mean, and I'm not saying this specifically because, like, if someone doesn't want to be with you, she needs to know that he doesn't want to be with her.

John [00:17:01]: There's the notion. I think it's like, there's the. The notion, the spirit of I would do anything for you with a smile on my face. Like, not. Not holding it as a obligation or as a. Make you feel like it's a burden to me. And then there's the sort of legality of, in practice, what is the operating rules and agreement and how do you operate. And so one of them is of the spirit. Are you participating in the relationship with the spirit of, I would do anything for you, and I would do it gladly with a smile on my face or not.

Nicole [00:17:42]: So it doesn't always mean literally, it's the spirit, right?

John [00:17:45]: Because, I mean, it's good that. I mean, it's good that you called that out because it is a hole in that way of thinking. Because you can't just. As a man, you cannot just do whatever a woman wants to do with a smile on your face. And if it's not what's in her best interest and in the relationships, like, you have to make executive decisions. You can't just do everything that she wants you to do. Right. Like, but you have to have the spirit, the heart of I would do anything for you. Right. Like, meaning that what it comes down to, practical terms, is I would put you above myself. And so when you're making a decision, let's say that you're in a relationship, you're married, and your wife is telling you, I want to spend all this money on this, I don't know, fancy trip that we can't afford, right? And in practicality, you know that that's not going to be good. It's not a good decision. Like, it's not. Then you might have to, like, maybe you forego something of yours that you wanted to buy or to do, and you spend that money on giving her a trip, but not the trip, right? So you're still putting herself, you know, putting her before you. But you can't just accept that request just because it's.

Nicole [00:19:08]: But women do whatever.

John [00:19:11]: Yeah, yeah, that is true. Like, because you are choosing to be under the authority of a man that you're trusting to lead you. Like, he's. You're giving him the authority to be the head of the house, to be the leader. So that. That is true. I mean, unless I. There's some other contradiction there.

Nicole [00:19:28]: I mean, I think that a woman should still, even if they're in a dynamic like us, be able to talk to their partner. Their partner could potentially be wrong and could stop that before just making a decision. Because I feel like, especially for a dynamic like this in the authority thing, ego plays a huge part, right? Like, if you're an authority without ego as much as you can, then that's different. But a lot of men really struggle with authority and ego, and things can be talked about.

John [00:20:02]: That's fine. Like it. What. What it comes down to is at the end of the day, when a decision is made, then that decision is complied with with enthusiasm.

Nicole [00:20:13]: But then it goes back to the guy being like, oh, I want to open the relationship. So it's like, well, yeah. So then when he still wants to,

John [00:20:19]: when we get to that, after you talk to him about it, okay, that's. That' of those things where, okay, like I said, you mistrusted you, you put your trust.

Nicole [00:20:28]: Yeah, but that still sucks. It still sucks that the person you love and you trusted now is being untrustworthy.

John [00:20:34]: But now it is. Now it is not the relationship. Now it is a violation of the tenants of the relationship. Right. Because if you're in a monogamous relationship, you've married and you've made vows which have said that you hold cleave only onto each other and in such forth, then if he's choosing to violate that, then you are also not contractually obligated to your agreement because it's changed. Right. So you get what I'm saying is that now you've chosen to submit to a man's authority and to choose to be with him as your only husband and listen to what he has to say, but then he's violated that he's choosing to. So that would be.

Nicole [00:21:15]: But I think that it's a very simplified version of like, someone that goes into something. Because I think that men don't think about women's perspective in this. Like, if you really put yourself in that woman's shoes, right. You married somebody, you trusted his authority, you trusted him, you only wanted to be with him. And then now he's telling you he wants to be with other people. And like, yes, you can go against your contract of marriage, but you didn't want to.

John [00:21:39]: Yeah, that's what I'm saying is like.

Nicole [00:21:41]: No, I know. I'm just saying I don't think men realize though, that, like, there's still a huge grief and knowing that the person that you wanted to be monogamous with and spend your whole life with is now forcing you basically to get a divorce because of his wants. Yes. You should. Yeah, you should want to know his true actual feelings so that you can make a decision. But it's still completely earth shattering, right. To women who are in this position with these guys that they've dated.

John [00:22:09]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:22:10]: Or they've married, that have been monogamous, and then now all of a sudden they're like, oh, no, I want to go sleep with other people.

John [00:22:17]: Or let me give you an example, that kind of like. To the authority thing. Right. Because no authority is absolute. None. Right. Including a marriage authority. It's not absolute. Let's say that I joined the military, right? And the premise was I'm going to go fight for this country. The premise is also, if I have to kill people in a war and my commander in chief tells me I'm going to go and fight in this war and be deployed there and killed the enemy combatants, I will do it. Right. That's what I'm agreeing to. That's what I'm signing on the dot. I will obey that authority unquestioningly. However, let's say that you're in this situation and your commander says, I need you to kill all those children. You're going to say no. You should say, no, you should disobey that authority. The rules have changed. The agreement has changed. That's not what you gave. Like, when you give authority to someone over you, you give it under a set of conditions, Right. And those set of conditions should be broad enough that it's not ridiculous where you just are like, no, no, no, that's not the agreement, but they are still under a contract. And when the terms of that contract change, your permission can be revoked at that point. You know what I'm saying? And so this is an instance where, hey, the agreement is, we're married. We're one person together in a monogamous relationship. If you want to change the terms of the contract, then my submission to your authority is not necessarily the same answer now, so that's where it does to really lawyer the hell out of. But I think it is important. But just like what we just said, it is consistent. Like, it can be consistent for these things to be true in those situations.

Nicole [00:24:14]: Yeah. Just know if you ever say that to your wife or to your husband that you want to open up the relationship, you've ruined the relationship.

John [00:24:20]: Yeah, yeah. Because you've changed it. You've fundamentally changed it because you've broken one contract and you're trying to create a new contract.

Nicole [00:24:28]: Right.

John [00:24:29]: And that person doesn't have to agree to that new contract or even to continue. Like, you've destroyed the first contract. It doesn't exist anymore. So.

Nicole [00:24:36]: And even if you go forward with that, it's not going to end well either for you or her. It's. It's going to end in you guys breaking up, not being in each other's lives anyway. So if you, if you want to say you want to open the relationship up, you're better off just being like, you know, I don't want this anymore, like, just actually breaking up, even though that's still hard. But honestly too, if you want to open up your marriage.

John [00:25:08]: Huh.

Nicole [00:25:09]: You have other things going on.

John [00:25:11]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:25:12]: Like something else. Something is going on in your inner world that you need to try to resolve first.

John [00:25:21]: Yep.

Nicole [00:25:22]: Because not being happy with the person that you committed to spending the rest of your life with. And randomly there's some underlying thing going on.

John [00:25:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:38]: Like whatever that might be. Might be a midlife crisis, Might be something else. Might be you're feeling inadequate in yourself. Might be you. I don't know. But it's probably something. And so even if, and I know again, like men typically have these feelings more often than women. You owe it to your wife to try to figure this out. Like truthfully, like figure out what the underlying thing is.

John [00:26:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:07]: Because also, I firmly believe, especially if you're over like 20 years old, you can't really blame your hormones going crazy anymore because the older a man gets, the less his stuff starts doing the things that it used to do when he was young. So, like there's something going on. There's some sort of thing going on. If you're willing to blow up your whole life or blow up your marriage to have sex with multiple people.

John [00:26:37]: And you have to realize that it will do that. There's actually a really good book called the Truth by Neil Strauss. It's a sequel to the Game, which is the book about pickup. About game. Right. But he wrote a second book. Not too many people read the second book. It's a volume of a book, but it is about post the game and him trying to try everything. What is the best way to live. He. He lived with three women, had three relationships. That was in a throuple. Yeah, but it was one way. Like it was only they were exclusive to him and he was just with those three. And he tried where both ways open and he tried. I forget all the different scenarios of things and he joined some relationship of two people or like he did all of these different things and he tried to figure out what is the best. What is the best thing, what will make him finally happier, quench his sexual desire and fulfill him the most way. And he never found it throughout the. What he ended up doing at the end of the book spoiler is he ended up going back with his monogamous girlfriend or maybe it was ex wife at this point and just being monogamous. So after all of this, he had all the. Because he had the most. And the reason why this book is actually a good book is because most men don't have this possibility of doing these things, and they fantasize about, oh, this would be better, or, like, this, I'll be happy. And he's already gone through all of that for you in detail. And he had the ability to do that, didn't he? And so you can already learn from his experience that it's not going to do what you think it's going to do.

Nicole [00:28:23]: Right.

John [00:28:23]: Right. It's just going to be a path of misery. Like, it's never going to be enough. It's never going to be that thing. And. But that's a good book. It's a good book to read if you're. If you're struggling with it and you're thinking about this. To see a man that's failed at it, that tried everything, that had everything.

Nicole [00:28:38]: But even if he said. You said he never found it, but if he went back to one way, that way had to have made him the happiest.

John [00:28:46]: Exactly. That was the best.

Nicole [00:28:48]: In a way, he did find it, because otherwise he would have just been single. If he really didn't find it, he would be single.

John [00:28:53]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:28:54]: In my opinion.

John [00:28:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:55]: The fact that he went through all of that and then chose monogamy, that is the one that made him the happiest.

John [00:29:02]: Yeah. Yeah. 100. So. But. But yeah. So I was just distracted by your beauty. Your. I like your earring and necklace choices. Looks nice.

Nicole [00:29:13]: I thought that I had, like, a bug on me or something because I saw you, like, looking at my shoulder and I'm like, I don't feel anything.

John [00:29:20]: Oh, that looks really good. I like the. The necklace with the earrings. But. Yeah, but no, I mean, that's. That's. The thing is, like, it's. You think it's gonna do one thing, but it's. It's not. It's just gonna destroy your relationship and your family.

Nicole [00:29:32]: Yeah.

John [00:29:32]: You know, because it also. The other thing is, like, kids involved too. Right. Like, a lot of times this is a situation and you think you can hide all this stuff from your kids, but it'll eventually come out.

Nicole [00:29:44]: Eventually.

John [00:29:45]: And it can be very embarrassing to your kids, especially when they're in school, especially when their friends find out or whatever. You know, Like. Like these things don't stay.

Nicole [00:29:57]: It's hard enough for kids for their parents to go through a divorce. But then, like, which, like, kids should not find out, by the way.

John [00:30:04]: Like, they shouldn't.

Nicole [00:30:05]: No parents or anybody should be telling kids things that they don't need to be knowing. I'm not saying that eventually, if you feel like it's the right time when your kids are adults.

John [00:30:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:18]: To have an adult conversation with your kid. Yeah, But.

John [00:30:22]: But you also don't want.

Nicole [00:30:23]: When they're children. Right.

John [00:30:24]: You're still going to ruin their memories of their childhood. Now they're going to repaint it based off of what they know, that you're, you know, whatever you're swinging or whatever you're doing. Right. So. So it's not. It's not good.

Nicole [00:30:34]: Which there are certain things that kids should know. I don't think kids should know about swinging or whatever that really. They should never know.

John [00:30:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:42]: But like if your kid's dad is not who they think is their dad or. Or they have whatever.

John [00:30:49]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:30:49]: Those are unacceptable things to keep from your child.

John [00:30:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:53]: But like what you and your crazy husband are doing on the weekend, granted, you shouldn't be doing that.

John [00:31:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:00]: It should just be you two.

John [00:31:02]: Yeah. And then again, the other thing I think that's important is, like, one of the great things about our podcast is we. Even though a lot of what we say happens to line up with traditional Christian theology, we are not religious.

Nicole [00:31:18]: We're not spiritual, though.

John [00:31:19]: Yeah. But what I'm saying is that I feel what we say carries more weight because it's what we believe is.

Nicole [00:31:28]: Right.

John [00:31:29]: Right. Based on our logic. Exactly. And natural consequences of life, of things. This is why these. There's no Supreme Command book that we're looking at that's telling us this is how it has to be. And believe this on this authority.

Nicole [00:31:47]: Right.

John [00:31:48]: If you believe that, that's fine. Not trying to attack people that are. That believe that, that's fine. But what I'm saying is that it's a lot more credible when we're saying this out of life experience and other people's life experience. And this is just how things sort out in nature. Right, Right. Because I think that's.

Nicole [00:32:03]: So what has more. Like you said, like, more things to back it up, like more evidence.

John [00:32:09]: Right. Because if you say, well, I believe in the Spaghetti Monster as my God and personal savior and he says this, but I believe in Cookie Monster is my God and savior and he says this, then you have a conflict because you're going based off of some authority is telling you that things are right or wrong, whereas common sense and logic and natural consequences, natural order of things is a better authority to lean on, because that authority is not up for debate as much. You know what I'm saying? Because I can believe one religion and someone else can believe another one, and they say different things. Then who's Right. Well, they're both basing it on the defer. What do they call the plea to authority? Right. So, yeah, yeah. To get into logic. But. But, but. No but, but I think, though, that it is. It is super important to discuss because like I said, a lot of people don't think about these things, and then they end up ruining their relationship and their family because they think it's just a sexual thing or whatever, and they think it'll be fun or what. That's going to solve problems. But inevitably it creates a whole host of problems. And every single person that I know that has done this or has, you know, done something similar, it's always blown up.

Nicole [00:33:36]: Yeah.

John [00:33:37]: Every single time.

Nicole [00:33:37]: And it always will.

John [00:33:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:39]: Like, I'm not trying to fear monger people, but one surefire way for your relationship to not work out is to open it up in whatever way.

John [00:33:48]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:33:49]: You're better off just breaking up at that point. But I feel like we can't talk about this without talking about corn. And I'm gonna say corn because I don't want anything to be limited.

John [00:34:03]: But the AI that looks at the videos knows the context of what.

Nicole [00:34:10]: Well, I'm still gonna say corn.

John [00:34:12]: You can say corn.

Nicole [00:34:13]: But we can't talk about this without talking about that, because, honestly, corn cobbery. Yes, corn cobbery. Be that visual or written or whatever way you. You want to serve it up. I. I truly believe that a lot of these extreme things that people feel like they have to introduce into their sexual lives stem from this.

John [00:34:42]: Yeah. It's a gateway drug.

Nicole [00:34:43]: Stems from.

John [00:34:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:45]: You know, them relying on that. Them enjoying that to a point where it has to get more and more extreme. It has to get more and more crazy. It has to get more and more outrageous to the point where, like you said, one person isn't enough. I mean, logically, again, because we're. We sit here and we talk logically. Why did women's ankles make men.

John [00:35:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:14]: Get boners back in the day? Because that's all that they could get.

John [00:35:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:20]: In that moment.

John [00:35:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:21]: It wasn't everywhere for them. People were clothed more. So an ankle was like, oh, my God, a freaking ankle.

John [00:35:29]: Like, it was because of the. The preponderance of ankle jobs.

Nicole [00:35:34]: Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, like, it is to this extreme.

John [00:35:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:41]: Because we've gone to the extreme.

John [00:35:44]: Everyone is desensitized because the world is overly sexualized. Right.

Nicole [00:35:47]: Yes.

John [00:35:48]: My famous thing is to say, go to the gym. Right. But, like, yoga pants, like, is a good Example, it's like, it's insane. Like you're literally wearing. We're just showing your entire butt.

Nicole [00:35:59]: Yeah.

John [00:36:00]: More than a swimsuit even that shows like that.

Nicole [00:36:04]: Yeah.

John [00:36:04]: Perfectly hugs your butt. So it's like. But, but that, but my point in saying that is that it's, it's literally everywhere, right? Like every advertisement, everywhere you go.

Nicole [00:36:13]: I mean it is everywhere. And like kids today.

John [00:36:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:16]: They don't have any like media or idols that are in the preteen era. So that's why all these 8 year olds want Sephora makeup and all this stuff. Like. Yes, that's not like sexual. But the, but the thing is that these kids are on TikTok. They're consuming content now that could possibly be sexual.

John [00:36:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:36]: Because they have unrestricted access to the Internet. So they are being introduced to this stuff. And honestly, like if a kid has electronic device degree, they're gonna go looking for the stuff when they get curious.

John [00:36:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:48]: And if they didn't have those things, then they would gradually understand the curiosity. They'd have a conversation with their parents, they would figure things out in a different way. But instead, instead it's so prevalent and it's so everywhere that even kids can get a hold of some of this corn and then they're addicted to crazy stuff at 10 years old.

John [00:37:11]: Tell me that you wish that you don't wish that you'd never seen any of it in your life. Right. Like everyone. I feel like I wish I'd never seen any of it. You know what I mean? Because it's not good for you. And you think about, um, you know, just like even like some people will criticule. Like you think of communities where they're prudish and they cover up and the women wear, you know, like the Amish. Yeah. Or something like that. And it's like, okay, is it, you know, very prudish or is it practical? Right. Because it create, you know, the.

Nicole [00:37:50]: Because Jeffrey hasn't seen a boob in a long time and he's gonna be really excited to see that boob.

John [00:37:55]: Exactly. And so is he more likely to. In his marriage? You know, is it more likely that those people are going to stay together? That's their only source of, of sexual expression at all, you know, because it's heavily like regulated by that society. Because they're not, they're not, you know, I'm saying. So it creates. I'm not saying that we have to be as, as prudish.

Nicole [00:38:19]: Right.

John [00:38:19]: But like regardless, you know, sometimes we talk to children and we're like, oh, that's inappropriate for you to wear. It's inappropriate for anyone to wear though. You know what I'm saying? It's like no one should be wearing these kind of inappropriate things in public. Yeah. In the privacy of your home, with your spouse, whatever. Sexy. But, but in general, like, it is better to.

Nicole [00:38:39]: Because then you have to do more. That's also why dresses now, like on the red carpet and stuff are see through. Because now you have to do more. If you're already dressing provocatively in your everyday. When you dress up for something now you're like, oh, I need to do something even more over the top. I need to wear like a totally sheer top with just my nipples out. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it doesn't have to be like that, but we've made it that way because we keep trying to one up. That's like, I forget who the person was. But it was like the spongebob movie premiere. One of the rapper girls showed up in like a see through dress with underwear on and stuff. And you could see the underwear and stuff through. And this is a kids movie, right?

John [00:39:22]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:39:23]: Like what has happened? And like you said, like, okay, look like you can wear whatever you want, but the reality is, is that you're gonna feel like you have to keep one upping things.

John [00:39:36]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:37]: And that's exhausting. And then it leads to this kind of stuff. It leads to maybe you're a girl that just wants to be with one guy and be treated like a princess and like he worships the ground she walks on, but you haven't found that yet. And so your friends are telling you, oh, wear this like, you know, cute top where you know everything's hanging out and like, you'll get plenty of attention. Yeah, you do. But from guys that probably aren't going to treat you the way that you want to be treated.

John [00:40:02]: Right, exactly. Like, yeah. Because you're sending a message and if

Nicole [00:40:05]: you want to still wear that and you know that that could happen and you know that you can deal with it. Sure. But it is still hard to deal with whether you can deal with it or not. And it's just, it's gotten to a point, like I said, where it just keeps being more and more and I am tired. I'm tired as a woman.

John [00:40:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:25]: Like, yes, I am married. So people I'm sure are going to be like, well, you're married, you already found your guy, whatever. But I'm tired that I can't read a book most of the Time.

John [00:40:35]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. That doesn't have corn, Corn and corn. Coppery.

Nicole [00:40:40]: Corn coppery in it.

John [00:40:42]: Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah.

Nicole [00:40:45]: And, and the extent that these books have gone to.

John [00:40:49]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:40:49]: You're going to sit here and tell me that that's normal, Right. Because I know back in the 90s and the early 2000s when I was young, my mom was not reading about aliens with schlongs the size of my arm. Yeah, she might have, I don't, she didn't really read that much, but there might have been some cowboy romances or something. But I know, yeah, they probably were not on the level of these ones today.

John [00:41:18]: No, not. Yeah, definitely not.

Nicole [00:41:19]: We've gone right too far. We need to pull it back a little bit. For sure.

John [00:41:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:25]: Like put your clothes back on and show a little ankle and make the guy be like, oh, shoot, that's an ankle. I like that ankle. That would be going really far back, but you know what I'm saying.

John [00:41:36]: No, but like in general like that. But, but, but, but men also have

Nicole [00:41:40]: to do it too. That's the thing is like, women can't just start dressing like the Amish when men are still exposed to these dramatic things.

John [00:41:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:51]: Or they're wanting to be with multiple people.

John [00:41:54]: And, and, but, and I think like to tie it kind of back in because we went off a little on a tangent, but it's a good tangent. Is, is that the thing is, is that the root of this, right. Of this non exclusive relationships, open relationships or variations of that is a sexual dissatisfaction. Right. That's always the root of it. There's no other root of it. Right. Like, why else are people doing this? Why would you do this? Right. It has to do with some kind of sexual dissatisfaction. Right. And so what creates sexual dissatisfaction? Like you said, if you could be turned on by an ankle, your degree of what is required in order to be sexually satisfied is pretty low. It's like, maybe a knee will do it for you. That's good enough. Like you're just like, I didn't even take my clothes off. Now we have to. That was quick. That's like. But what I'm saying is that like it's going to, it's going to prevent you from wanting these things because what you're getting is more than enough. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, what is your appetite? Well, I mean, if you're gorging yourself on buffets all the time, right? And then you eat a normal sized meal, you're gonna be Like, I'm still hungry. Exactly. Right. And so that's the thing is, like, it is very related to it, because if you can abstain from corncobbery and also just from. I mean, even just averting your eyes. I mean, this is hard to do as a guy, but, like, don't even look. Don't even. Like, when you see some sexual image, just. Or, you know, I mean. Or there's yoga pants in your face, just like.

Nicole [00:43:46]: Why are the yoga pants in your face?

John [00:43:48]: I'm just saying, like. Just like. Because it's all over the place. It's.

Nicole [00:43:51]: Yeah.

John [00:43:51]: Billboards and everywhere. Yeah, I know, I know. But I'm just saying, like, to even. Just like, for your own good.

Nicole [00:43:57]: Yeah.

John [00:43:58]: You know, I'm saying, like, that's a smarter way to. To be. It's harder.

Nicole [00:44:03]: Yeah, for sure. If you have sexual discipline, that is hot to a woman. If you don't, that's unattractive. Because if you can't control your sexual desire.

John [00:44:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:12]: There's probably plenty of other places in your life you can't control. And it's just an excuse.

John [00:44:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:18]: Like, no one wants an excuse for poor behavior.

John [00:44:21]: Right. Yeah. Even. Even the corncobbery novels. Right. Usually one of the plot devices is that they can't get it on, but they want to get it on, but the guy has to, like, wait for the opportunity till he can finally get it in. You know what I'm saying? But that's. So. That is obviously in those. In those novels, because it does turn

Nicole [00:44:47]: women on, the sexual tension.

John [00:44:49]: Yeah, yeah. And so. But that. But it's sexual discipline.

Nicole [00:44:52]: Right?

John [00:44:52]: Is. Is how it's displayed in a man. Right. A man that is, like, able. Willing to wait.

Nicole [00:44:57]: Right.

John [00:44:58]: For her.

Nicole [00:44:58]: You know, so when you go to your wife and you're like, I want to open the relationship, that's like the opposite.

John [00:45:05]: Yeah. And. And, you know, the other thing about that, too, is, I mean, I'll just give the precautionary tale if everything else we've said isn't enough. I have a guy that I advised against this, and one of the reasons why I advised against it, because he was like, oh, yeah, My wife was like, yeah, I can go to bars and pick up girls or whatever. And he was married and he had kids, and. And I was like, you don't even know what you're doing anyway. Right. Like, you think it's just gonna be easy. You think you're just gonna. That you're just gonna find women that

Nicole [00:45:37]: are just throw themselves at you.

John [00:45:38]: Yeah. You know, you're. You're not.

Nicole [00:45:41]: You're a dude.

John [00:45:42]: You're not what I would call a specimen. Right. Like, you don't have very much game. You're not a specimen. Like. Okay. And so his wife let him do it, and he was not successful. And then she left him because he was a loser. Because she was like, should have left him anyway. Sure, sure. Maybe there's multiple. But I'm just saying, like, it also didn't look too good on him. Like, he thought it was going to be this light and. Because the reason why I'm saying this is because I think a lot of people think they have an illusion in their head of what it's going to be like, and then the actuality is not that. So you're. You're making a trade for something that you're not even going to get. Or it's not going to be as good as what? Yeah, it's not going to be what you think it is. It's not. You know, it's the. You got the picture of the Big Mac in the advertisement. It looks all juicy and great, but then when you open up the Big Mac, it's just like this little shriveled burger, you know?

Nicole [00:46:37]: Yeah. It looks horrible.

John [00:46:38]: So.

Nicole [00:46:39]: Yeah, but it wouldn't have worked either way.

John [00:46:40]: No.

Nicole [00:46:41]: Because like we've been saying this whole episode, the trusts would have been broken. It doesn't matter if you got women,

John [00:46:46]: but at least he would have got women.

Nicole [00:46:50]: I see what you're saying.

John [00:46:51]: He got. He got nothing.

Nicole [00:46:53]: You're talking about the other.

John [00:46:54]: He traded something good, a wife and a family for nothing. He got nothing. He thought he was going to get something. He got nothing. He lost. He lost what he already had, and he didn't gain anything else.

Nicole [00:47:06]: I hear what you're saying, but also, I don't want men specifically to listen to this, because a lot of times they get a woman first and then leave.

John [00:47:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:15]: Like, that's not the point you're trying to make. The point you're trying to make is your relationship will end regardless of whether you open up the. When you open up the relationship, if you get women or if you don't.

John [00:47:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:26]: But if you don't get women, it's even more embarrassing. But honestly, telling your wife you want to open the relationship is pretty embarrassing.

John [00:47:32]: Right? I agree. I think, like, it's embarrassing.

Nicole [00:47:34]: That shows who you are, which is also embarrassing. Like, you think opening it up and not being able to get women makes you a loser. Like, you're a loser for Wanting to open up your marriage instead of just being like, I don't want to be with you anymore.

John [00:47:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:47]: You know what I mean? Like, that's more respectable.

John [00:47:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:50]: Than being like, I need more women. I need more women to sleep with.

John [00:47:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:54]: Like, that sounds like toddler boy being like, I need milk and cookies.

John [00:47:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:59]: I only have one cookie. I need more cookies. No, more.

John [00:48:03]: More milk, but whatever.

Nicole [00:48:06]: You know what I'm saying? So don't think it makes you less of a loser if you do it and you get girls because you just blew up your life.

John [00:48:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:17]: So that's not attractive either.

John [00:48:19]: Yeah. Well, I think. Anything else you got on that?

Nicole [00:48:24]: I think no, just don't do it. Just break.

John [00:48:26]: No variations of it.

Nicole [00:48:27]: Yeah. Just break up, because it's gonna end anyway. And honestly, if you're feeling called to that lifestyle again, like, take a. Take a moment and, like, see if maybe there's some underlying reasons why this is so attractive to you. And if you still decide to be polyamorous, that's fine. But just know you're not going to have the deepest, most intimate, connected relationship that you can have with one person.

John [00:48:57]: And I would say if you're thinking about it, decorn for three months first.

Nicole [00:49:04]: Yeah.

John [00:49:04]: And then see if you still need that.

Nicole [00:49:08]: You should just decorn as much as you can.

John [00:49:11]: Of course. But I'm just saying you need to at least do that first. Then you'll have a different perspective.

Nicole [00:49:20]: Yeah, that's true. That's not bad advice.

John [00:49:23]: All right, that's it for this episode. If you have a question for us, you can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com and our website is betterthanperfectpod.com we now automatically. AI automatically grabs the episode and puts it there on time every single week.

Nicole [00:49:42]: So John created that.

John [00:49:44]: That's right.

Nicole [00:49:44]: Done a lot of really cool things.

John [00:49:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:47]: With not only the podcast, but just with AI in general. So. Yeah.

John [00:49:52]: All right, see you next week.

Nicole [00:49:54]: Bye.

Nicole [00:00:00]: You were stuck on that. That I wouldn't do what I needed to do to support you. And I was stuck on the fact that, like, it seemed like you wanted to put my mental health on the line in order to get what you wanted. I was willing to blow my whole life up to not go back there. It's not something I'm proud of, but it is how strongly I felt about the situation that I didn't want to go back into. It doesn't make it right, but it's not an excuse, but acted in ways that I'm not proud of at all because I was so afraid.

John [00:00:38]: Beyond the perfect we discovered through our flaws we complete each other Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:03]: That's right.

John [00:01:03]: All right.

Nicole [00:01:04]: And we're going to be talking about the imperfect part today.

John [00:01:07]: Yes. We got. Got into it a little bit. This. You know, normally we say not a little bit. Well, yeah, a little bit more than a little bit.

Nicole [00:01:14]: Yeah.

John [00:01:15]: But normally we save that for the end. But we figured we'd do an episode about this one since. Since there was a lot of things that came up, I think that's useful to talk about. So.

Nicole [00:01:27]: Yeah.

John [00:01:27]: Yeah. So where do we want to start?

Nicole [00:01:30]: I mean, I guess we'll talk about it. I mean, I don't think all the details are necessary just because. Not to, like, not be transparent, but it's just not relevant. And it could affect other people, not just us. So John was having a really hard time last week. Was it last week?

John [00:01:57]: The last week of the week before? I think it was last week.

Nicole [00:02:01]: I think it was last week.

John [00:02:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:04]: And we were at the gym and, you know, he was just really overwhelmed. And some things had happened while we were there that upset him even more. And then it was conflicting for me because I wanted to. To tell him the truth about how I felt about it, but then he didn't feel supported. And so, you know, I. I spoke my truth of how I felt about it, and then that hurt your feelings even more. And then, you know, we were talking a little bit about it, and then I offered somewhat of a solution, but not really a full solution to the problem. And so you still felt, you know, like I wasn't there for you. And then, you know, that just turned into a really big thing, which obviously, because it felt like a really big thing to you because you felt Like, I wasn't going to support you and be there for you when you were having a really hard time. And then I was conflicted because I wanted to tell you how I felt, but I also did want to be there for you. But in regards to the issue, it was just something that I didn't want to go back to because it was poorly affecting my mental stability. So it was a hard situation just in general. Because you were hurt.

John [00:03:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:49]: And then I was trying to, you know, protect myself from being in that bad mental state as well, too, because, I mean, you weren't in a good mental state when all this happened. And then, you know, when I'm thinking about it, if my mental state is bad and yours is bad.

John [00:04:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:11]: What do we have? Like, I can't support you, you can't support me. So, you know, not an excuse. But I was afraid to lose myself again. I was afraid to go back to a version of myself that I didn't want to go back to again. And so that's where I was coming from. But I can understand that it made you feel like I wasn't there to support you, and so you were stuck on that, that I wouldn't do what I needed to do to support you. And I was stuck on the fact that, like, it seemed like you wanted to put my mental health on the line in order to get what you wanted or like. Like the help that you wanted. You know what I mean? So it obviously became a really big thing because we were two people fighting for what we thought we believed in, you know, like, what we thought was right, and it wasn't as simple of a thing to come to an understanding of. And I acted in ways that I am definitely not proud of. I yelled at you, and I, you know, told you to leave and get out. And I was willing to blow my whole life up to not go back there. And it. It's not something I'm proud of, but is how strongly I felt about the situation that I didn't want to go back into.

John [00:05:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:52]: It doesn't make it right, but it. It just. It's not an excuse, but I acted in ways that I'm not proud of at all because I was so afraid.

John [00:06:11]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's. It's a little bit vague on the details, but. But I think I can add a little bit more without. Without getting too much into the details, which is that, I mean, I was having a very overwhelming, stressful time. And this involved, like, picking up our daughter from school and dropping her off. And I just. And I was struggling because I had a lot of stuff that was on me. And then I was under the impression that we could drop her off at my ex's house on the night before she had to go to school because it's a big drive to go there on Monday, and there's no reason to not do that. And then my ex had not been okay with that. And then I just kind of. That was the final straw of feeling like I'm already in a bad place, just mentally. And then so I was looking for some help, some volunteering of help to help me out of the situation that didn't come. And so I was very much feeling like, at my worst, when I'm at my lowest, if I can't count on getting help, you know, then, you know, what. What do I have? And. And it kind of came down to a couple of things which I think are useful to talk about. For me, it came down to the statement that I'm willing to do anything for you, and I do. And I do it with a smile on my face because doing something for you makes me happy. I never make you feel like it's an obligation or something that is hard for me to do, no matter what it is. And that is what I want as well. And I felt like that was not reciprocated. And so I made the statement of. Of that. Of, like, okay, you know, I. My relationship. Like, I want to be in a relationship where I would do. We would do anything for each other and do that happily for each other. And that's where I wasn't getting that confirmation of that. And that concerned me because to me, that's one of the most important things in a relationship, is to have that. And so. So. So anyway, you know, I mean, without getting into too many of the details of that, like that particular situation with. With parenting and step parenting.

Nicole [00:08:58]: Well, I think there does need to be a little bit more, because I'm not saying go fully into it, but there is more to that story and why that picking up caused that sort of reaction.

John [00:09:12]: Yeah, yeah, there is.

Nicole [00:09:13]: And there's no reason to talk about it here, but it's a disservice to me to act like that's all that it was based on, like, knowing what had happened before. Like, a lot of things have happened. I've not been treated very well. I know that I'm the adult, but that is why this was a problem. And I think that needs to be said because that's fair. It's not fair to just say that it was one thing and that's why it caused a severe reaction. And that's why I couldn't give you at the time what I thought was the answer because I was so afraid of mentally going through some of the things that I've gone through again. And I understand where you're coming from. And I understood where you're coming from. And that's why in the car I offered somewhat of a solution, even though I know isn't a full solution, because I do want to do it for you. But at the same time, the way that it was handled just made me feel like. Like, I guess my stance on it was like if I saw your emotional reaction and I knew what you had gone through, I wouldn't want you to have to go through that. And so that's what I was stuck on. And I know that you care about me and you wouldn't do that to me, but in the moment I was afraid that you would just put me back in that situation because that was my biggest fear is, was going back to that situation. And so that's where also the disconnect was, is that I just. I mean, we have a dog now that's like, yeah, needs help all the time. And you used to take her out all the time. And I appreciate that. But now I want to get up and do it so that you don't have to start your day dealing with the stuff.

John [00:11:16]: Yeah. But I'm willing to do it with a smile on my face.

Nicole [00:11:18]: I know that you are, but the thing. But that's. And I understand that, but I don't want you to do that.

John [00:11:24]: It doesn't matter if you want me to. I'm willing to. And that's what is, that's what you're missing. I understand that's important to me in that, but I.

Nicole [00:11:31]: But the thing is, I didn't want you to do that. Like I wanted to do that for you so you didn't have to worry

John [00:11:38]: about it, which is fine. But it doesn't change that other part of it.

Nicole [00:11:41]: I'm not saying that it does.

John [00:11:42]: I think we're. I mean, where it comes down to is kind of what we were talking about, you know, before is it comes down to the self protection. And that's really the heart of it. Because when you're in a relationship, you know, myself included, whoever, you know, if you choose to protect yourself, you're going to hurt the other person. And it is a violation of the intimacy and vulnerability to try to protect Yourself, you should trust your partner to protect you. And only if you do, then can you say, I would do anything for you, and I would do it with a smile on my face. Because you know that they're not going to put you in harm's way. They're going to, you know, and when two people are acting that way, thinking only about how they can provide and be better for the other person and not trying to protect themselves, then both people are protected better than they would be on their own. Because if I try to protect myself, then I have to create distance between us, because then I have to assume that you would do things that would not be in my interest and vice versa. And so you can only have a truly intimate relationship if you let down the guards, if you do not protect yourself in both parties, because that allows you to then actually be protected by the other person and to put your full trust in them. And I think that was the thing that was kind of the main contention that I had, that was missing. That was kind of the thing that we discovered right as we, we talked about this, was that it was something that you're still holding on to for good reason of the need to protect yourself, but something that, you know, you came to the conclusion to let go of. And I think that, you know, going through all that stuff and coming out with that conclusion makes it worth it.

Nicole [00:13:38]: And that's kind of the premise for this whole show.

John [00:13:42]: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is, like, because you have to, like, it wasn't comfortable for us to go through that stuff, and it's even less comfortable for us to come here today and talk about the thing. But it's true. But, you know, that's the, the, the good side of it is that it's better to go through all the stuff and then come out and realize the things that need to be fixed and repaired. That. Because could we keep on operating, you know, in the relationship with you still trying to protect yourself? We could, but will be better off and closer now with you letting that part down, because along with the protecting yourself is going to come defensiveness, and it's going to come all which we talk about all the time on, on this podcast is defensiveness. And if a person's still trying to protect themselves, they're going to be defensive, because that is part of protecting yourself. And you know, that's true. And when you, when you let go and trust and your partner, they may let you down and they may hurt you from time to time, but you have to know that you're in better hands than you would be protecting yourself. And I think that's the key thing. And it doesn't exclude me from it because I've also been guilty of it at times, of protecting myself instead of being vulnerable and open and trusting in you to take care of me better than I would take care of myself.

Nicole [00:15:03]: Yeah. No, you're right.

John [00:15:05]: But. But, yeah, it was. It was a lot.

Nicole [00:15:10]: It was a lot. And mostly my fault, for sure. Like, I mean, probably all of it. I was, again, didn't act in a way that I should have acted, and I was defending myself and deflecting and comparing and all these things, and it just. I don't want to do that.

John [00:15:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:32]: I was scared.

John [00:15:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:34]: And in that moment, I didn't feel like you were protecting me, but you have always protected me.

John [00:15:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:44]: So that's just my own issue.

John [00:15:48]: Yeah. And I think it did open up some other things in terms of, like, the situation, which we won't. We won't go into those details, but, like, in terms of parenting and, like, how to handle the situation and, you know, because I don't want to go into too many of the details, but, you know, I did also feel, in a way that, like, you were going to just. You had kind of left it to me, and we're going to step out of the situation, which I think we talked about that, too. And. And how, like, you know, that is maybe not the most spiritually mature thing to do. And.

Nicole [00:16:32]: Yeah. I mean, I don't really want to talk about it because I'm still deciding.

John [00:16:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:36]: Honestly, like, really. What I want.

John [00:16:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:41]: In regards to that, like, I'm still very hurt, like, just because of the things that we've talked about.

John [00:16:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:49]: I. My feelings haven't really changed, like, as far as how I feel about it all. Like, there are things that I will do, but I don't feel better. And I don't really want to, like, discuss that here, but, like, I don't, because that's something that you and I should talk about. But I don't feel better in regards to that, honestly. So I don't really want us to go into all of that.

John [00:17:24]: Yeah, I think we don't need to go into all of that. I think we just need to.

Nicole [00:17:28]: And, like, at this point, from. Also, what I've learned from this is that I have to not care to be perfect. Like, no one's perfect. And so even if it's the more spiritually mature thing to do, I don't know if I'm ready to do that right now. And I don't think that makes me less of a person.

John [00:17:47]: I think acknowledging what is right and is always important, not always doing what

Nicole [00:17:53]: is right, that's fine.

John [00:17:54]: But acknowledging that this is the right thing.

Nicole [00:17:56]: Sure. If I was the most enlightened person ever and, you know, like, could do, like, put all my feelings aside, sure. But right now, I just don't know where I'm at with that. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm also not going to pressure myself into doing something that I don't know if I'm ready to do right now.

John [00:18:21]: To do the right thing.

Nicole [00:18:24]: I mean, I understand what the right thing is.

John [00:18:28]: And you're not sure if you're ready. I just want to be clear on

Nicole [00:18:30]: the words because I'm not sure if I'm ready to put all my feelings aside when I haven't processed them and I don't feel like they've been really addressed.

John [00:18:42]: But to do the right thing, like, we just have to be clear to

Nicole [00:18:46]: do the right thing.

John [00:18:47]: Okay. Which is fair. Which is, like I said, I'm fully in support of wherever you're at in your journey. But what I'm never, ever in support of is misnaming the things like watering down the truth. Because the truth of what is right.

Nicole [00:19:05]: Because sometimes people don't do the right thing. You haven't done the right thing. Sometimes I haven't done the right thing. Everyone watching this hasn't done the right thing. Sometimes.

John [00:19:13]: Exactly. What's important is I'm not going to,

Nicole [00:19:15]: like, make myself feel bad.

John [00:19:16]: No, what's important is to acknowledge what is the right thing.

Nicole [00:19:20]: That's fine. And I acknowledge that.

John [00:19:22]: It's when we. And we've talked about this before on the podcast, but when we are in situations where we justify our actions and change what the right thing is, that's when we're in danger. And that's the thing that is the worst thing to be. As long as we acknowledge what the right thing is and know that we don't always live up to it, that's fine. But when we change the goalposts and we make the right thing be the thing that we're doing.

Nicole [00:19:47]: I didn't say that.

John [00:19:49]: Yeah, I'm not saying that you're saying that, but I'm saying that that's the thing that's super important.

Nicole [00:19:53]: I understand. I heard you the first time, and you're right. It is the right thing to do.

John [00:19:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:57]: I don't know if I'm ready for that right now.

John [00:20:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:00]: And that's why I didn't really want to talk about this right now because we obviously haven't really talked about it.

John [00:20:05]: Yeah, well, we did talk about it a while. You've got some things that you're going to do. We don't have to go into the details that are in the step of doing the right thing.

Nicole [00:20:15]: Yeah. And I'm not saying I'm not going to do those things, but I can't sit here and act like I'm just going to shove all my feelings aside. All the things that have happened, and

John [00:20:24]: I think that's good, is that no one is asking you to shove your feelings aside and no one should have to shove their feelings aside ever. All those things should always be addressed and dealt with. And I think that is important.

Nicole [00:20:36]: Yeah. I don't know if I feel like that's been done.

John [00:20:39]: Yeah. And I think it needs to be done and I think it will be done. So.

Nicole [00:20:44]: Yeah, I, I don't want to talk about it.

John [00:20:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:53]: But yeah, it was, it was good. But it's obviously still hard.

John [00:20:59]: Yeah, it is still hard. Yeah. But like I said, I think that the most important thing is just the realization of, like, not protecting yourself, that both of us have to make sure that we're doing in our relationship and that everyone has to do. Yeah,

Nicole [00:21:27]: I agree. It's hard. I feel like, as a woman, because I feel like we've been taught to protect ourselves.

John [00:21:40]: I think that's true. Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:42]: And men really haven't, like physically, sure. But it's not the same. You're way less likely to be taken advantage of or what not. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't know.

John [00:21:56]: I think men are. Are told to stand up to bullies and not to, you know, back down to people. And, you know, I think a lot of it is. I think for men it's more ego based a lot of times. But I mean, pride is the killer. Right. I mean, pride is also behind this. Right. We talked about that as well. Is that like, pride is, is the thing that causes us to, you know, be stuck and not to open up and be vulnerable and to defend. Right. Because the thing about it is that, you know what, you know what, what? Why do we need to defend ourselves? Why do we need to protect ourselves? Right. Like, you know, we think that it's going to serve some kind of purpose, but it's, you know, it's either things are either there's only two ends of the spectrum. And it's. It's always fear and love. And fear is at one end and love is the other. And when we're protecting ourselves, we're operating out of fear. When we're being vulnerable and open to people and allowing ourselves to even be hurt, we're operating out of love.

Nicole [00:23:03]: But what's the line you're saying? There is no line.

John [00:23:05]: There's no line. It's always out of love. Like the.

Nicole [00:23:08]: But I mean, okay, yeah, but here's the thing. Like, you have gotten a divorce. People have gotten a divorce. There is obviously a line. Like, I'm not saying that you don't still care about people, but that's. I think that that is what gets misconstrued when you just talk about this so simply, is that there is still a line for certain things.

John [00:23:35]: There's not a line in which love is superseded by fear. There's not a line in which.

Nicole [00:23:44]: I didn't say that, but I'm saying there's a line between continuingly being abused.

John [00:23:50]: Right. And those things aren't connected. Right. So in the sense that.

Nicole [00:23:54]: Connected.

John [00:23:55]: Right. Operating out of love in no way is connected to the actual choices you make in your life and actions that you take. Let me explain what I mean by that. What I mean by that is that I've used this example before, but I think it's a good one. So I'll. I'll use the example again. Is that. Let's suppose that you have to. You're in a combat situation and you have to. Someone's aggressively coming at you, and it's kind of you or them, and they're. You're trying to peacefully end the situation, but you end up having to take their life. You don't have to do that out of anger or hatred or fear. You can do it out of love. In the sense that it's like, I'm sorry that I have to do this as you're snapping their neck. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I'm not trying to make it funny because it's not funny, but it's like that. It's. I'm using the extreme example because that is true. It is true. Even in situations where I've been in combat situations, in fights, in bars, and I've had some of that in my history. I remember punching a guy or putting a guy in a sleeper hold and having no ill will towards him, just having to do the thing, not wanting to do the thing, but having to do the thing and buy him a drink. Afterwards and be like, hey, I'm, you know, no hard feelings, because that's the way to operate. And so I'm using that extreme example. But, like, even in a situation where let's say that you're in an abusive situation, okay, it's clear that you can't stay in that situation. And that's okay. You don't have to stay in the situation. But it doesn't have to bring up hatred in your heart. It doesn't have to.

Nicole [00:25:53]: I don't feel like I have hatred in my heart.

John [00:25:56]: I'm not saying you.

Nicole [00:25:57]: I know. I'm just saying, like, you have told me these same things. Like, I agree with you. I. I don't feel like I have hatred in my heart. I. I agree with what you're saying.

John [00:26:07]: Yeah, but that's where, like, there's. There is no line ever, Right? Like, always operating. And it's not something that, you know. Again, it's like we talk about what is the truth and what is, what is possible. And we shouldn't avoid the truth just because it's not possible. But it may not be possible to operate in this lifetime as a completely loving human being all the time showing love, unconditional love for everyone and everything at all times. But we should. But that is the right thing. And I think it's important to establish that. Because if that is how we're operating, like, if we recognize that as the truth, the greatest truth that exists in this world is that we should always be operating out of unconditional love for everyone and everything at all times, then we have a mark, and then we have a guide, a compass. And then we can evaluate all of our actions in life under that. And we can sometimes fall short, and that's fine. And we are going to fall short many, many times. But in doing so, it gives us the capacity to have grace for other people, but not change the finish line or what is the actual standard? Because that is the standard. That is what we should be striving for. And anytime that we're not doing that, we can recognize our fault without persecuting ourselves, but recognizing that we are falling short of that standard.

Nicole [00:27:35]: How do you do that? Because I was going to say, it sounds like you're putting immense pressure on yourself in that situation. And when you fall short, how do you not feel shame? How do you not feel like you're going to beat yourself up?

John [00:27:51]: Yeah, I mean, I think the difference is, like, shame is unnecessary, but guilt is good and pain is good. Right? Because when we're falling Short, we should feel guilt and we should feel pain because that is going to motivate us to move in that direction. Like pain is an indicator, whether in the body or in the mind, of something wrong.

Nicole [00:28:14]: See, I think love is a better motivator than guilt and pain.

John [00:28:18]: But the whole thing is that the lack of love. So how does love become the motivator of the lack of love? Like it's. You have to feel the pain of the regret of your actions in order to change those. Right. But it only happens, I think, if

Nicole [00:28:33]: you don't beat yourself up and you actually do listen to yourself. If you love yourself, which is what I'm talking about, yes, there is a lack of love. But if you love yourself in that moment, you are more likely to show love to the person that maybe you did feel like there's lack of love there.

John [00:28:49]: Exactly. And that's where grace comes in. And that's where giving everyone grace and giving yourself grace comes in. But the only way that we're going to give ourselves grace in this life is if we give other people grace first. Because we won't give ourselves grace if we don't operate that way externally to other people.

Nicole [00:29:05]: Or is it opposite? Because aren't we how critical we are to ourselves, we are to other people.

John [00:29:11]: I think there is a cycle to it. But more often than not, the bigger problem to solve in our lives is giving other people grace. Not giving ourselves grace because we inadvertently give ourselves grace all the time. Because we make excuses for our actions. We justify every single thing we do. There's a reason why I did it. We don't do that for other people. But the more that we do it for other people and we say, hey, this person messed up, but I have grace for them. I feel sorrow for them instead of I have love for them even though they've messed up, even though they've hurt me, then we can have the grace for ourselves. But if we don't have that, we will have shame. I think inadvertently, if you don't have grace for other people, you will have shame for yourself. Because if someone can do wrong and we can gracefully give them love even though they've done wrong, then it's in the open. If we can't, then our own sins have to be hidden. And that's where shame comes from. Hiding our sins, hiding. Pretending like they don't exist. Like not wanting to show them to the world, but knowing them, that they exist to ourselves. And that's where shame comes from.

Nicole [00:30:20]: Yeah, I agree. And I'm not Feeling that anymore.

John [00:30:24]: Yeah, and that's good. And that's good, you know, but. But I think it's. It's super important, like I said. I mean, I think that's where it just all comes down, is the one universal thing of. Of showing unconditional love for. In all of your actions, in all your ways.

Nicole [00:30:41]: Yeah. Which is hard.

John [00:30:42]: It is. It's very hard. It's. It's the most difficult thing that you can possibly ever hope to do, but it's also the best. The most noble thing that you can possibly dedicate your life to. You know, that's why people like Mother Teresa are so respected, because she is one of the examples that people point to, of doing that in life. And now maybe she didn't do it perfectly, but. But, you know, but no one will. Right. But she exemplifies that. You know what I mean? And that's why people lift her up so high. So.

Nicole [00:31:16]: Yeah, I mean, I agree with you,

John [00:31:20]: but. But, yeah, but I mean, I think that's just the core of when we're. When we're in the place of protecting ourselves or defending ourselves, we are operating out of fear. We're usually operating out of ego or pride. Like, those are the things that are keeping us from. From being vulnerable and from.

Nicole [00:31:41]: Or we don't feel like anyone's protecting us. And sometimes that's not true, but sometimes it is true. And that's also why people learn how to do these things. And like I said, I do think it's. Women especially learn to protect themselves.

John [00:31:56]: Yeah. And I mean, when. When you're operating out of that. You're operating out of fear, though, which. Which is.

Nicole [00:32:01]: I'm not saying that.

John [00:32:02]: Which is where it comes from, but. But I think it's. It's also like, it's also hard to

Nicole [00:32:06]: just turn your fear off. And I mean, like, yes, you should feel the fear and do it anyway and like, just deal with it or be vulnerable.

John [00:32:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:14]: But it is also not just like an instant switch of, now you're not afraid.

John [00:32:20]: No, I think that's where like, striving to operate out of love comes in. Because if your identity is one that you operate out of love and not fear, then it's easier to make those changes. Right. Like, that's because if our identity is caught up in our ego, then we defend our ego. If our identity is caught up in. In that we are a person of unconditional love, then the defense doesn't make any sense. Then it's like. Because the thing to think about Too, I think is like when you are trying to protect yourself. Right. And this goes for. For anyone. What. What are you actually do. Are you ever able to really actually protect yourself? Do you know what I mean? Like, is it even effective at all? Or does it just cause you more pain and more hurt and hurt other people? Because in what instance have you ever protected yourself? You know, and I'm. I'm saying not as a. I'm saying as a general. You. Right. To anyone. And it's actually been effective.

Nicole [00:33:27]: Yeah, I agree. I think it's not. I think it's less about protecting yourself, if I'm being honest, and more about having a choice in your life when you feel like you don't have one.

John [00:33:38]: But we always have a choice in our life.

Nicole [00:33:40]: I know.

John [00:33:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:41]: But it's the illusion where you feel like you don't have one.

John [00:33:44]: Right. When you feel like.

Nicole [00:33:45]: And that's why you protect yourself. You stand up for what you believe or what you want or whatever.

John [00:33:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:53]: And that is. And again, it's probably ego. It's probably fear. It's probably one of those things. But I think that's the driving factor.

John [00:34:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:05]: Is that's why it's so attractive to people. I mean, like, we all have protected ourselves. We've all been defensive. We've all done these things. We will continue to do these things. Like, yes, we should strive to not.

John [00:34:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:19]: But also, realistically, it's going to happen and we shouldn't beat ourselves up for it. Like, that's just going to make us continue to defend ourselves and continue to protect ourselves and continue to be in fear and continue to be ego maniacs or whatever.

John [00:34:34]: Yeah. As long as the thing is for the standard to be not to. You know what I mean? Like, that's where it comes in, is like to remove all justification for wrong action. Because wrong action is wrong action.

Nicole [00:34:48]: I agree. But also, you can't police other people. You can't be the moral police. I agree with you.

John [00:34:53]: Right. You can be your moral police of yourself.

Nicole [00:34:55]: Right. That's what it has to be.

John [00:34:57]: Right. Right. But truth is always truth. And I think that's the thing is like, there's a difference between moral policing the world and speaking what the truth is and speaking the truth in love. I think that's the most important part of it, I think. But you're right. I think we all. We kind of learn to protect ourselves. I think that is a. It's a. It's a trait that is human. It's admired almost. It's Lifted up as someone who doesn't let anyone do something to them or doesn't let anyone take advantage of them. But, you know, you've heard me say it many times that no one can take advantage of you. It's, it's not possible to be taken advantage of. It's. That's just an illusion that, that we make in our, in our minds to, to believe that we're taken advantage of because that, that requires us to have

Nicole [00:35:46]: not made the choice yourself.

John [00:35:47]: Right, exactly right. Because that's the thing is there's a stoic example of a dog chained to a cart, right? And the dog has the chain around his neck and the cart is going. Well, the dog has two choices. Dragged by the cart by the chain by his neck, or go along with the cartoon. And one of those choices feels like I'm being dragged by the neck. And the other choice feels like I'm going along with what is happening in life or what is, you know, and so it's like when we, when we think about someone taking advantage of us, we're the dog being dragged by the, by the neck. But when we think about, okay, this is the situation. And rather than fight the situation, I'm just going to, it's going to happen either way. So instead of me choosing it to be something that is something I'm forced to do, I'm just going to be complicit in it. Then, then we become the dog merrily going along with the cart doesn't even know the chain is around its neck. So life always presents us that choice and it will. There is always a chain around our neck and there is always a cart that is moving and we can continue to fight against it and be dragged or we can go with the cart. You know, I think that's, that's, that's why the idea of being taken advantage of is an illusion.

Nicole [00:37:19]: I understand you explained it well.

John [00:37:22]: Thank you. But I don't know what else on this, on this topic. Did you have more insights or.

Nicole [00:37:32]: No. I mean, like you said, it's just best not to protect yourself. And if you can come from a loving place and still have boundaries or still make a certain decision that you need to make lovingly.

John [00:37:48]: Yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's the key. But yeah, and I do think that, I mean, the other thing I was going to say is that, like, I do think that in a partnership, in a relationship, that it is important that the value that I hold very highly is that you should be willing to do anything for each other. And it should never feel like a burden to do something for your partner. And if it does, then that's a problem and that's something to address because, because it does come, it does stem from the wanting to protect yourself, you know, because that's. Otherwise. Why would that be the case?

Nicole [00:38:28]: Yeah, I think as long as you do feel like your partner is actually protecting you and cares about how you feel. Because again, like, yes, like you should do anything for your partner regardless. But at the same time, your partner is not a very good partner if they don't care about how you feel and they don't care about your well being either. And no one's going to want to be unprotected around someone that they feel like is not protecting them, which is not the case here. But I'm just saying that like there are relationships that are not very solid and women might not feel like their partner is protecting them and the man might feel like his wife is not protecting him.

John [00:39:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:09]: And you know, but that is a big part of it because ultimately to get what you're saying, to get two people that would do anything for each other, what really has to happen is that the man has to focus on the woman doing what's best for her and the woman has to focus on the man and doing what's best for him. And like if they clash, then they need to figure those things out together. Not like one just gets it 100% and the other doesn't get it. Unless that makes sense after discussing it. But the thing is like everything should be taken into consideration and that will get you compromised, which is also part of a relationship. Like sometimes there's going to be compromise. Sometimes it's not going to just be one way or the other. Like sometimes it is. Yeah, but sometimes there needs to be compromise. And so if you're focused on each other, then usually you can also come to a good common ground between those things. If there are conflicting things.

John [00:40:11]: I would also though add to it that you know, in a modern traditional relationship that the man has the authority in the relationship and that a woman needs to respect that authority. And if she can't trust the man to lead the relationship and trust his in his authority, then she shouldn't be in that relationship with him.

Nicole [00:40:32]: I agree, but how would she bring up if a man wants her to do something that she has made apparent she doesn't want to do, she should not say anything.

John [00:40:41]: No, she should say express the thing, but.

Nicole [00:40:46]: But she should do it anyway with

John [00:40:48]: a smile on her face exactly 100%. Because that's, that's.

Nicole [00:40:53]: What if she feels like her husband doesn't actually really care how she feels about that?

John [00:40:58]: Don't be with that man. Like, if you don't have enough trust in him to lead, to put your life in his hands and lead your life, help you with your life basically better than you would on your own. If you feel like you could do it better on your own, then you have no business even being in a relationship. Because there's. Because relationship, you know, is unnecessary in that, in that, in that scenario.

Nicole [00:41:23]: Yeah, but I feel, and I like, understand, like in our dynamic, the man is authority.

John [00:41:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:29]: But I feel like there's a difference between telling someone what to do.

John [00:41:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:33]: And genuinely considering it. And sometimes men get that wrong.

John [00:41:37]: For sure.

Nicole [00:41:38]: Sometimes men do lean on authority, being like, I told you to do this, so you need to do it. And that, that doesn't feel loving at all. That's not what you're saying. That doesn't come from unconditional love, for sure. And so it's really conflicting. And it's honestly hard for the man. Because if you're preaching that we have to do everything under unconditional love.

John [00:42:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:42:01]: But yet you're being unloving or you're coming from an unloving place or an ego place, a pride place, a selfish place.

John [00:42:09]: Yep, yep.

Nicole [00:42:10]: That kind of puts a woman in an impossible situation. So men have a lot on their plate for sure, then if they have to do all of this exactly. Correctly.

John [00:42:21]: Exactly. And here's the thing about it too is I think, is that, you know, again, no one is going to be 100% perfect. As a woman, you have to decide, do I trust this man? Will I put my life into his hands and submit to his authority, knowing that sometimes he is going to make the wrong call? Not every single time is he going to choose the right action. Not every single time is he going to take me into account to the level that he should have. Now, there's a big difference between that and a man that never takes you into account, that only wants his way, that is operating out of ego. But that's a choice that you should be making when you commit to a man, when you choose to be with a man, you should know those things ahead of time. And if you're not comfortable with them, then don't make that step and don't make that commitment, because that's, you know, because once you've made that commitment, you've made that step, then you're obligated either way. Like whether you feel like he's taking into account or not. Because the thing is, like, you have to take into consideration the air of judgment on both sides. Like, as a woman, if you're submitting to the authority of a man, but you feel like he's not taking you into account, that might not be accurate. That might be how you feel. And if you just say, well, I feel this way, so this time I'm not going to listen, then it really doesn't mean anything. It's not really a commitment, it's not really a trust. But if you say, well, okay, 90% of the time I know that he's making the right choices and taking me into account. And so that 10% of the time where he's not, I'm still on the ship and I'm still going to do my part because I don't necessarily know when that 10% is. Sometimes I think I know when the 10% is, but I'm wrong because I'm trusting someone to lead me. And if you're trusting someone to lead me, they should probably be a little more wise than you, and they should probably be making better choices in general than you. Not always the case, but in general that should be the case. And so I think that's where it comes down to, is that it comes down to trust. It's either you trust this person or you don't trust this person. If you don't trust them, don't be in a relationship with them. If you do trust them wholly.

Nicole [00:44:38]: Yeah, I agree with you. I still think that's a lot of pressure on men.

John [00:44:42]: It is a lot of pressure on men. And that's.

Nicole [00:44:44]: And feelings aren't always facts. That's true. But you should still feel like your partner cares about them truthfully. Not like lip service. Not like, okay, yeah, but you should still do this anyway. Like, I get giving someone advice.

John [00:44:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:00]: And like you said, there is always the right thing to do.

John [00:45:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:04]: But sometimes people have to learn it in their own way.

John [00:45:09]: True, true. And I think both. But with that said, if you trust a man, then you trust that even in this moment, you may feel that you're not being taken into consideration. But that might not be true. That you have to look at the overall thing of it. Right. Majority of the time is he taking into consideration more. Majority of the time, do you feel like the choices he's making?

Nicole [00:45:36]: I agree. But if it's a big deal and he's not acting like that at that time, that is a Problem. Like, if someone comes to you with big emotions and yeah, other times they give you, yeah. You know, the validation or whatever, or sit with you with it, but in this bigger moment, they don't. Then that does feel like that.

John [00:46:01]: For sure.

Nicole [00:46:02]: They're not there for you.

John [00:46:03]: For sure. It can feel that way. And I think.

Nicole [00:46:05]: And I don't think women need tough love. I don't think they need, like, someone to be like, okay, get up and go work out and do your. Like, they don't need someone to talk to them like that. Like, I'm not saying that you can't tell a woman the right thing to do and have a conversation.

John [00:46:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:24]: And tell her what you believe is right and what you think she should do.

John [00:46:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:29]: But I do think that if there's obviously a big problem and you act like you don't care, like. And you're like, well, all the other times I do. That doesn't really make anybody feel better.

John [00:46:43]: It doesn't make anyone feel better, but it's still the correct action to take.

Nicole [00:46:48]: But then it feels controlling.

John [00:46:51]: It may feel that way, but that doesn't mean that because then it's like,

Nicole [00:46:54]: okay, suck it up and you need to do this.

John [00:46:56]: Right. Exactly.

Nicole [00:46:58]: Yeah. That's like talking to a man.

John [00:46:59]: But it still is the case, right? Because.

Nicole [00:47:02]: But they. They also don't have to. That's like, the thing is, like, they. They do have their own way of going about it. You can tell somebody what's the right thing to do. How many people have you told what's the right thing to do and they didn't do it?

John [00:47:16]: Well, so many. There's a difference between telling someone what's the right thing to do and, and speaking what needs to be done out of authority. And those two things are not the same. Right. So giving a suggestion of what's wrong, saying this is what I'd like you to do, or this is what I need you to do is different than saying, okay, here's my opinion on this. This is what I think is the right thing. Do what you want, but here's the right thing that's different.

Nicole [00:47:48]: Okay?

John [00:47:49]: And in the first case, compliance is not an optional thing. I do think you're right in the sense that if it is a big matter and you're feeling not heard, that that should be communicated. I think the thing. The danger of it is that let's say that it is communicated and you are heard, but then the choice is still something that you disagree with or that you wouldn't choose. Then the question is, what are you going to do in that situation?

Nicole [00:48:26]: Yeah, it's just kind of conflicting with some other stuff. But I understand what you're saying.

John [00:48:31]: In what way?

Nicole [00:48:34]: Things we'll talk about outside of this.

John [00:48:38]: Okay. Well, I mean, if there's something that you feel like it's a. Am I speaking a contradiction?

Nicole [00:48:44]: No, I don't believe so, but it's just a little confusing to me based on other conversations that we've had about some things.

John [00:48:56]: Well, even without giving the specifics, am I saying something that's not correct?

Nicole [00:49:01]: I mean, I just feel like you've told me in certain instances, like, like you were. Like, you will still love me regardless of what I do.

John [00:49:14]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:15]: But then now it sounds like, but if you tell me to do something, I need to just do it. So now it seems like. Which is true.

John [00:49:24]: Ah, yeah. If I tell you to do something,

Nicole [00:49:26]: like now, are you just going to tell me to do the stuff like. Because, like, I don't think that that's the case. But the way you're talking is giving more like, if I tell you to do something, you need to do it.

John [00:49:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:39]: Whereas like before, you actually seem like you're coming from a loving place where you were like, you know, I will love you even if I don't agree with your decision.

John [00:49:49]: I see the confusion. I see the confusion.

Nicole [00:49:51]: It's very confusing.

John [00:49:52]: Yeah, I'm glad you pointed it out. So if I tell you to do something, then I do expect you to do. Has no, no condition on my love. I love you regardless. It doesn't matter. But it, it is, it is expected that if I tell you to do something, that you would do it because you've agreed to that, you've committed to that. You have chosen to trust me and to put me in a position of authority over you and to accept that authority. Now, there are things like I said that I might tell you to do. Now it's funny for me to even say that because I can't even recall. Very few times ever in my life have I told you what to do in that sense. And even if I do, it doesn't even come across that way. It comes across as me asking you to do something. The other instance is where you have something that I'm telling you is the right thing to do. But it's up to you to do it. I don't require you to do it. I'm not in any way using my authority to say that I need you to do this. It's up to you. I'm not going to water down the truth. And so when I say to you, regardless of what you choose, I love you unconditionally, that is the truth as well, in the sense that in those particular instances, it's up to you. I'm not here to guide your whole life in terms of the moral choices that you make or spiritual choices that you make. I'll give you leadership and guidance on it in the sense that I'll give you my wisdom. But not all of those choices that you make in your life are going to be ones that I can make for you. You have to make those choices. How I feel about you should never be influenced by those choices that you make, because those choices are yours. It's only the choices that are the choices that I. That are mine, for our family, for our relationship, that belong to me that I require compliance on. So I think that. But I'm glad that you brought that up because I think that that would be confusing to me as well.

Nicole [00:51:57]: Yeah, it was very confusing. You came across very aggressive and not from the place that you've spent the first half of this episode talking about, but I know that that is where you come from. But it is confusing hearing one thing and then hearing another way that it's being portrayed.

John [00:52:15]: Does it make sense now, though?

Nicole [00:52:16]: What I. Yeah, it was just not. I just wanted to properly, like, fully talked about. That's why. Yeah, I was confused.

John [00:52:25]: And I can take ownership for that because I should have. Should have made it more clear. But I'm glad you brought it up so we can make it more clear. But. Yeah, but. Yeah, so I don't know. So I think that's. I mean, we kind of went into a couple different topics, but I think they're all kind of related against. I mean, what it really comes down is to. Is to. Is to trust.

Nicole [00:52:49]: And a lot of people don't trust their partner.

John [00:52:51]: Yeah. And if you can't, then you either shouldn't be with that person or you should be resolving to figure out how you can resolve that, to have that trust.

Nicole [00:53:02]: That's true.

John [00:53:03]: Because you can't have a relationship without trust.

Nicole [00:53:06]: No, not a true deep relationship.

John [00:53:08]: Yeah. And that was the whole thing that was like. I think again, for me, the contention was that it would be very difficult for me to trust you if I feel that I'm willing to do anything for you, you know, without any kind of making it feel like it's a burden. And I don't have the same because you're protecting yourself. And that's where that was, like, something that's super important to me because how can I trust you if I'm putting you first and you're not putting me first, you're putting yourself first. Then I can't trust. Then there is no one that is exclusively looking out for me. Whereas if we were both doing that for each other, then everything should operate smoothly, even though it's not always going to be perfect. Yeah, that's true. All right, well, anything else?

Nicole [00:54:05]: No, I think that's everything.

John [00:54:07]: I guess we can wrap it. Uh. Good. Good. Good job. And doing a difficult thing. I'm proud of you. Because it's not easy to, like, to come here and to talk about these things.

Nicole [00:54:23]: Yeah.

John [00:54:24]: And to confront these things. It's not easy. It's not easy for me. It's not easy for you. Some people in the comments will say nasty things.

Nicole [00:54:33]: I don't care.

John [00:54:34]: But. Yeah, I don't care.

Nicole [00:54:35]: But I'm just saying, like, I don't care anymore. That's true. I don't care. Like, yeah, I'm human. You'.

John [00:54:41]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:54:42]: You can throw shade at me, but you've done the same things, maybe worse things than I've done.

John [00:54:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:48]: So it doesn't matter anymore.

John [00:54:50]: Yeah. But I'm proud of you for always being willing to be transparent with everything and. And talk about the things, because I do believe that. That this benefits people.

Nicole [00:55:02]: I hope so.

John [00:55:03]: I don't think there's.

Nicole [00:55:03]: I don't sit here crying on the Internet for nothing.

John [00:55:06]: I really.

Nicole [00:55:07]: What's his face with?

John [00:55:08]: Like, yeah, leave Brittany alone. Not to toot our own horn, but, I mean, I'll toot your horn. Is that. I don't think there's a place where people can get more real stuff, because we are creating a podcast where we're talking about how to have a better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:55:25]: Yeah.

John [00:55:25]: And at the same time, when we mess up, we're willing to show that to people, which goes against the image that we're trying to, you know, to create. And I mean, that. That is the true image. But, like, the image that people would perceive is like, oh, well, they shouldn't mess up. They shouldn't.

Nicole [00:55:42]: Yeah. But the reality is, is no one's like that.

John [00:55:45]: Right. No.

Nicole [00:55:46]: Even the people that you see online that no. Seem like they never mess up.

John [00:55:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:51]: That's why you guys get shocked when they're divorced, like, two weeks later after they posted something all happy. Because they're not showing you these things, but we're showing you these things.

John [00:56:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:01]: So that if you have the same sort of conversation, then you can think back to this or be like, oh, I'm not alone. Like, people are going through this, and I can work through this, and we can work through this.

John [00:56:13]: Yeah, well, I love you and I'm proud of you, and I will always love you, no matter what. All right, that's enough mushy stuff for the episode. Follow us or check out our website at betterthanperfectpod. Com. If you got a question for us, you can shoot us an email at betterthenperfectpodcast@gmail.com and we'll see you next week. Take care.

Nicole [00:00:00]: You need to honor the emotionally safe bubble that you have in your relationship, and you should have that. And even if you do get defensive and your partner's like, hey, I can't really talk to you right now. All you're doing is being defensive. Saying something like that and actually trying to work through the actual problem is the only way you're gonna work on whatever issue you guys have. But by being like, oh, I watched the Better than Perfect podcast, and you got defensive. So now I'm not emotionally safe. That's just attacking each other. It's not like collaborating to fix problem. Emotional safety is not a line you draw in the sand. It's a bubble you put around you and your partner.

John [00:00:39]: I agree. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:04]: That's right.

John [00:01:05]: And today we're going to be talking

Nicole [00:01:07]: about the emotional safety. What's the word?

John [00:01:12]: Emotional damage.

Nicole [00:01:13]: Yes. Not emotional damage. Emotional safety.

John [00:01:16]: Emotional safety trap.

Nicole [00:01:18]: That's right.

John [00:01:19]: So you tell me, what is the emotional safety trap?

Nicole [00:01:22]: Well, I thought this would be a good topic.

John [00:01:25]: Okay.

Nicole [00:01:27]: Because as a woman, you do need emotional safety, like with your man, from your man, and he should feel the same from you. But I think people, especially women, might think that that means that they're never called out on things.

John [00:01:46]: Okay. Yeah, I see.

Nicole [00:01:47]: And that they're allowed to behave however they want.

John [00:01:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:52]: And hide behind the thing of I don't feel emotionally safe because even, like, in a friend group, we had a falling out, and one of the girls told the other one that she didn't feel emotionally safe with her.

John [00:02:10]: Mm. Okay. Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:12]: So it can be weaponized.

John [00:02:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:17]: And I do think that women are more so the ones to weaponize it.

John [00:02:22]: Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard a guy claim that he wasn't emotionally safe.

Nicole [00:02:25]: They haven't, but they have probably felt that.

John [00:02:28]: Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:29]: Even though they don't talk about it.

John [00:02:31]: That's true.

Nicole [00:02:31]: And so that's.

John [00:02:32]: Well, I mean, I was thinking in a group of guys, but. Yeah. In a relationship, yes.

Nicole [00:02:35]: But in a group, no. Yeah. They don't just bring it up.

John [00:02:37]: But, like, you're. Dude, you're making me feel very emotionally unsafe right now.

Nicole [00:02:42]: Right. They. Well, yeah, I don't think they say that, but yeah. So I thought it would be a good topic. We've had a similar topic, I think, before, but really, as a woman, and I think with society we've talked about the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives show as kind of an example. I do believe that women expect to behave however they want to behave with no repercussions. And that's not realistic.

John [00:03:19]: Right, right.

Nicole [00:03:20]: Like, not all women.

John [00:03:22]: No, no.

Nicole [00:03:22]: But again, I think we've gone a little bit too far with, like. With, like, making our feelings like all that matters and that everyone has to cater to what we think and not be responsible for those things, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? Because, like, the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives thing, they'll go and do things that they would not be happy if their husbands did, but it's supposed to be acceptable for them. And look, as a woman, do I think that I could go out to a bar and get in less trouble than you?

John [00:04:12]: I don't get into any trouble.

Nicole [00:04:14]: You don't get in any trouble. But I'm saying, I think I do believe that a woman could go out to a bar and get in less trouble than a man. I think we would both not get into trouble. But I think if I had to bet on one or the other, I'm betting on the woman not getting into trouble.

John [00:04:30]: I'm betting on trouble finding the woman. I'm betting on the guy trying to find trouble.

Nicole [00:04:35]: But that's not the thing. That's not the thing.

John [00:04:37]: Because, like, look, whether trouble finds you or you find trouble, there's still trouble. It's still in the equation. But I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying.

Nicole [00:04:47]: So what I say stands. And so I'm not saying that I believe that all women have these ulterior motives, right?

John [00:04:57]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:57]: But I think that as women, we need to own up to the fact that we have kind of been holding people hostage with our emotions at times that we would not accept if the tables were turned.

John [00:05:15]: Yeah, I agree. I think that the place to start is really to talk about what is actual emotional safety. Because it's being used as. It's being abused. Right. It's being used as a manipulation tactic to hold people hostage. Right. It's the same thing as, like. As trigger warning. Right. Like, that's an example of don't do

Nicole [00:05:38]: something because it triggers me.

John [00:05:39]: Right, Exactly. Like, oh, like, I can't, or I need a safe space. Like, all of this stuff, like being a little snowflake is emotional safety abuse. It's not like real emotional safety means that you should be able to express your emotions in a healthy way.

Nicole [00:05:57]: Right.

John [00:05:58]: And. Not be punished for doing so. Not have consequences for doing so. It means you should be able to say, this upsets me. This makes me scared. This is something I don't like. This hurts my feelings. And then not feel like it's being ignored, run over, explained away. That's right. Would you agree that's the definition of emotional safety?

Nicole [00:06:31]: That emotional safety does not mean that you will not be uncomfortable.

John [00:06:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:35]: I think that you can still be emotionally safe and uncomfortable. I think people throw out that they're not emotionally safe when they feel uncomfortable. And I think that that is not what it is. It is uncomfortable to be confronted with your behavior even if you're hurt, even if you're upset.

John [00:06:56]: Okay. Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:57]: Your behavior can be wrong. And when someone calls that out, it can make you uncomfortable. And that's typically where a lot of people will try to double down and be like, I'm not emotionally safe.

John [00:07:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:15]: You know what I mean?

John [00:07:16]: So from the other angle, because I was talking about, like, you should be emotionally safe to say things, to express your emotions, you're talking about from the angle of emotional safety. It's like, well, you know, I'm saying this is what emotional safety is. You're talking about what emotional safety is not. Emotional safety is not. You can't say anything to me that's gonna hurt my feelings.

Nicole [00:07:35]: I think emotional safety is being present to have a conversation, whether that's difficult or not. Like, Right. Whether it is, like, whether even if, like, you're yelling at me or I'm yelling at you, trying to de. Escalate it and then confront that behavior.

John [00:07:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:59]: And then being able to sit in that uncomfortable, like, confrontation of what you've done or whatever. You know, I think it encompasses the whole thing, being able to have the full conversation, not run away from your problems by being like, I don't feel emotionally safe. Cause the thing is that all these words have just become ways that we escape the responsibility of our actions and of our words.

John [00:08:21]: Right? Right.

Nicole [00:08:23]: And emotional safety is being with somebody despite all these things. And when you are confronted with a hard thing about yourself, like even a few episodes back when I got defensive with you and things like that. Like, you had hard conversation with me about some things. Like, it's hard to hear someone say things about you that you aren't proud of or, like, your shortcomings or whatever it is. But if I can't hear them from you, I can't hear them from anyone else. And granted, I want you to be able to tell me them in a certain way. And if you come at me in not the right way either, while you're trying to convey this, then I need to have a conversation with you as well. But it's being able to have all of these conversations within one hard conversation. Because the thing is, a hard conversation or an argument, a disagreement is not usually just one thing. Like something's gonna go wrong, someone's gonna do something wrong, or maybe you've worked really hard, like we've worked really hard, and you might have of disagreement that goes really well, and there is not multiple things happening.

John [00:09:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:37]: But we're human. And there might be a conversation where you feel like you start off really well, you're empathizing, you're listening, but then you get defensive, and then you spiral, and then you cause more problems. And you have to be able to sit in all that. You have to be able to hear all that, you have to be able to work through all of that. And someone that is present with you throughout all that yet holds you to the standard that you want to be held at, which, whether you want to be held at it or not, because to be honest, in that moment, we probably don't want to be held to it, but your partner still holds you to it, to the best version of yourself and what you want and should be. That is emotional safety. It's the bubble of all of that.

John [00:10:22]: I see.

Nicole [00:10:23]: In my opinion.

John [00:10:23]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Yeah. I think that if that makes sense. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think that makes sense. I think it's like emotional safety is that, like, if you're emotionally. Let's say if you're emotionally safe, if you have emotional safety, it means that you're not going to. Again, I kind of go back to, like, you're not going to get consequences for expressing your emotions in a proper way. In a proper way, in the correct way. Right. But all those other things are not emotional safety in the sense that when you're claiming that someone's making you feel emotionally unsafe, then your claim should be, I express my emotions in a proper way, and then they gave me consequences for that. They punished me for that. That is when you're not emotionally safe, all the other times you're emotionally safe, if that's not happening, you're emotionally safe. You see what I'm saying? So all the other stuff is not. Does that make sense?

Nicole [00:11:31]: Yeah.

John [00:11:33]: Because where people claim that they're not emotionally safe is, like you said, is when you're called out on something and it is more. So we're talking about women and taking accountability. You're called out on something, and then your claim, oh, this is making me uncomfortable, or to feel emotionally unsafe.

Nicole [00:11:53]: Right.

John [00:11:54]: And that's. No, that's not. That's just being a coward. That's just not facing up to. That's just avoiding responsibility and accountability. Right. Like, if someone is telling you you did something wrong and they're screaming in your face, okay, that could make you feel emotionally unsafe. That could make sense. But if they're telling you, hey, I didn't like what you did, or I don't approve of this, or you hurt my feelings or whatever it is, or you upset me, or even I'm angry with you about this, that is not emotionally. They're not making you feel emotionally unsafe. Like, they're making you confront hard emotions, which is the difference. And because otherwise, it's just a scapegoat to get out of it. To get out of facing. Regardless of men or women do it. If someone is trying to confront you about something and then you're avoiding it and you're using the scapegoat of, oh, that's not creating a safe space for me. That's making me feel emotionally unsafe. You're just avoiding. Is what you're doing instead of.

Nicole [00:12:58]: I mean, I would say, I hear what you're saying about the. If you do it right, and you don't get consequences or punishment.

John [00:13:05]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:05]: But to me, what emotional safety really is is someone that's in it with you genuinely trying to resolve the problem. Because I think that there's gonna be mistakes, there's gonna be some messiness sometimes.

John [00:13:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:24]: And I think that if you just define it as you do everything perfectly and you get a consequence or something that, like, I think then there would be a lot of emotional unsafety. Whereas, like, I wouldn't classify that. Well, I'm saying, like, as emotional unsafety. I think that emotional safety is someone that is in the conversation with you wants to resolve it. You guys might make mistakes, but you're really trying to work it out and you're in it with each other. And again, trying to address the situation in the best way possible. You're both trying really hard to do the right thing and you make repair.

John [00:14:15]: Look, maybe even this is a better lane is there is no such thing as emotional safety because emotions are not safe.

Nicole [00:14:26]: Well, that's where I'm kind of going.

John [00:14:29]: Emotions aren't safe. It's not supposed to be safe.

Nicole [00:14:31]: Right. Cause you can't.

John [00:14:33]: You should have A safe space to express your emotions.

Nicole [00:14:35]: That's what I think emotional safety is. It's the bubble of, like, okay, we're in this. I have emotions. You're having emotions. Let's get through this. So that's where I'm kind of trying to go. I'm glad that you picked up on that, because like you said, emotions are. It's a very messy, human thing, and sometimes they don't even make sense. And you do very well most of the time. But sometimes I might say something that makes no sense to you, and you might be like, that doesn't make sense, and that's gonna trigger me. And then is the emotional safety gone? Because now I'm triggered. No. If I feel like you're working through it with me, even if we're having a hard time, even if we have to talk for eight hours, like those times that we've done that, I've never felt emotionally unsafe because I know that we're committed to working through it no matter what. So that's what I'm trying to say. The emotional safety is.

John [00:15:30]: Yeah. I think many times that there's relationships. In relationships, women are free to express their emotions, and women are more emotional, but there's not room for a man's emotions. If he's upset, then that's not okay.

Nicole [00:15:46]: Right?

John [00:15:46]: Right. She could be upset, but if he's upset, then she's upset that he's upset. And now her emotions trump everything. Right. That's what happens a lot of times in relationships. And I think that's the thing where it's like, she's kind of hiding behind the emotional safety. She's like, okay, there's space for my emotions. You have to deal with my emotions and give me emotional safety. But I'm not gonna give that to you. If you have emotions, then I'm gonna be even more upset. And now I'm gonna flood you with my emotions. Instead of, like, holding space for your emotions. There's no space for your emotions. There's space for my emotions. I think that's where the big issue comes in, and that's where a lot of guys are even just afraid to confront a woman about a thing. Like you said, like the Mormon wives example. It's like those guys are scared as hell to confront any of those women, especially because they're all in a pack and they're all gonna gang up on him.

Nicole [00:16:35]: True.

John [00:16:35]: But even aside from that, if he tries to tell his wife, she's gonna get upset, and then he's gonna have to Deal with the consequences. He can't even say, I'm not comfortable with you doing this, because that would be violating the emotional safety. And then she would be upset. They have emotional safety. And that's a nice way to say it. I'm not comfortable with what you did. Anytime you say that to someone, that should never, ever be a problem. That's a good way of expressing an emotion or a feeling about a thing that is not insulting the person, that is not judging the person, that is not negative. It's just you expressing your emotion about the thing, and that should be totally fine. They don't have to agree with you, but they have to understand that you have said that you don't feel good about this thing. And you should have space, man or woman, to be able to say that. And so if you talk to your partner and your partner says, I don't like this thing that you're doing or this upsets me or whatever, and then you get upset about that and you can't handle that, then you're not providing emotional safety for that person.

Nicole [00:17:45]: Yeah, I think you should ask more questions rather than just get defensive. But that's the thing is like. But then is defensiveness just. You're instantly unsafe.

John [00:17:57]: I would say that if you try to, in a healthy way, express your emotions to your partner and they respond defensively, then they are creating an unsafe space for your emotions because you don't feel like you have the space to express them. You feel like if I do it, then they're just gonna give me consequences. Right. If I try to tell them how I feel, then there's just gonna be consequences for me doing it. So I'm not even gonna tell them how I feel anymore because it's just a negative experience for me every time. It doesn't mean that they have to agree. It doesn't mean there can't be a discussion, but it just means that if they respond in a defensive way, if I say to you, look, when you did this, I didn't like this. It hurt my feelings. And you're like, well, that was because of you did this before, or whatever, you deflect or you do something like that. Then I'm like, okay, I can't even tell you how I feel. I don't feel emotionally safe. Then it's a valid, I don't feel emotionally safe because there's no space for it.

Nicole [00:18:56]: Which I hear you, and it's not like I don't agree with you, but I think that that is more likely to not get the conversation to go anywhere. I think that. I get that it's frustrating when someone's defensive, especially when they're continuously defensive. I know I've done it. I know you've done it. But I think that if, like, you just shut down and you're like, I don't feel emotionally safe. Nothing gets actually fixed.

John [00:19:27]: No, don't hide behind it.

Nicole [00:19:28]: So that's why I think that it's not even beneficial to be like, I feel emotionally unsafe. That's why, in my opinion, let's not use that word, the bubble of having the whole conversation, which is emotional safety. Because the thing is, if I get defensive, like I did the other day, and you're like, you were being defensive and you told me you do this a lot. That. And I did get defensive quite a few times. Cause, like, I'm, you know, not handling it well. But you kept going, like, if you were like, I don't feel emotionally safe, how would that conversation have ended? Like, I did eventually listen to what you were saying and agreed to what you were saying, and I don't wanna be that way.

John [00:20:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:13]: And most people who are defensive don't want to be combative and do that. Like, you used to be defensive quite a bit as well, and I know you didn't want to be that way either. And so that's why I think that,

John [00:20:27]: like, you shouldn't just give up.

Nicole [00:20:29]: If there's a line, then people are going to use the line of being like, I don't feel emotionally safe. I'm not doing this. You know what I mean? Whereas, like, what I'm trying to say is that if someone is in it with you, especially if you're married, you need to honor the emotionally safe bubble that you have in your relationship, and you should have that. And even if you do get defensive and your partner's like, hey, I can't really talk to you right now. All you're doing is being defensive. Or, like, you know, can you just not respond and listen to what I have to say? And then you can respond once I'm done saying something like that, like, and actually trying to work through the actual problem is the only way that you're gonna work on the defensiveness, that you're gonna work on the deflecting, you're gonna work on whatever issue you guys have. But by being like, oh, I watched the better than perfect podcast, and you got defensive, so now I'm not emotionally safe. That's just attacking each other. It's not collaborating to fix the problem.

John [00:21:34]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:21:34]: And that's why I'm saying that emotional safety is not a line you draw in the sand. It's a bubble you put around you and your partner.

John [00:21:42]: I agree.

Nicole [00:21:43]: Yeah, because how can anyone feel emotionally safe if you're scared your partner's gonna throw that they don't feel emotionally safe at you?

John [00:21:53]: I agree. And that's not where I was trying to get. But I'm glad you clarified that, because I'm not saying that you shut down the conversation. I'm just saying that in reality, it is not emotionally safe if a person responds to you defensively whenever you express your emotions. But it doesn't mean that you give up. It doesn't mean that you now be like, oh, that's not emotionally safe. So now I'm checking out. It still is not emotionally safe for a person when they can't express their emotions without the consequences of it. But that doesn't mean. But you don't have to be emotionally safe all the time. You know what I'm saying? You need some level of emotional safety in a relationship. If you have no emotional safety, then that's going to be a hard relationship to be in. If every time that you express any kind of emotion it's reacted to in a negative way or defended or explained away, then you don't really have emotional safety at all in the relationship. Now, if you're in a discussion and you express something and your partner reacts in a defensive way, it doesn't mean that you now get to claim, I'm not being emotionally. I'm not emotionally safe and shut down. But it does mean that there is something to work on there that needs to be addressed. Because the relationship will suffer if one person cannot actually share what their experience and their emotions.

Nicole [00:23:18]: Yeah, I agree. And in the beginning of our relationship, I feel like you were very defensive, and I know I've been very defensive. And so I understand that. But I never classified it. I guess I still have a problem with classifying it the way that you're saying, because I feel like if I had classified it that way, I think that I would just live in that. And I think that that's part of the problem today. I think it's part of the problem that even if you're not saying it in the conversation that, like, if I back then, when you would be very defensive, if I was just like, well, I'm not emotionally safe and I, like, kind of checked out because I wasn't emotionally safe or, like, didn't invest as much and didn't, like, try to persevere with you, then, Like, I think it would have really harmed our relationship.

John [00:24:14]: I think.

Nicole [00:24:15]: And I'm not saying that, like, what you're saying is wrong, but I think if people focus on that, then they're not actually going to persevere.

John [00:24:24]: I think the reason why it's important is to recognize it not for yourself, but, like, for yourself when you're doing it. Right. Because, like, I can recognize that in. In our relationship, when I was more defensive, like, one of the things I had to realize was that I was not. I was not creating emotional safety for you to have emotions. Right. In fact, you frequently would tell me, hey, like, I don't feel safe to talk to you about things. Like, I don't feel emotional. Like, I wasn't validating your emotions. Right? Like, so you did talk to me less about things that were bothering you because you didn't want to bring up the thing that's upsetting you and then me get all upset about it and defend it. Instead, what you wanted was to be able to bring up the thing that was upsetting you and for me to listen to you, whether I agreed or not to listen to you, to be heard, to be understood, and then that issue to be addressed instead of just defended away. Right. And so, I mean, I think there's no way around it. If a person is defensive and does not create emotional safety for the partner, that that person will eventually shut down. That person will not just keep on trying to be heard, and it will hurt the relationship again. Does it mean that you should give up on the relationship or not? No. Like, you have to work things out. But I think as the person being defensive, as me being the person that was defensive early on in our relationship, if I didn't realize that I was causing you to shut down emotionally, then I might not have changed. But as I realized that and I was like, no, I do want whether I like what Nicole's gonna say. I'd rather her share it with me. And I want her to feel like she's safe to share whatever it is. Whatever. Even if it's something that is totally out here or something that I would consider to be ridiculous, I would still want her to share it with me. Because maybe there's something that, like, for whatever reason, there's something in her past that's triggering her or whatever, that's some past trauma, and she's going through that. She's my partner who I love. I want to know about that and be able to talk to her about it. And the way That I was acting in the defensive way. The way that I was making it not safe for you to have those emotions was causing a rift in our relationship, and I had to realize that in order to change it. And since now that that is deeply ingrained in me almost every single time, I would say 95% of the time or more, when you bring up something to me, something that upsets you or your emotions, I completely address it. And I don't act defensive and I don't shut you down and I don't do anything. And so that's why I think it's important.

Nicole [00:27:02]: Yeah, and you're right. I did used to say I didn't feel safe saying. Saying that to you, but I don't. I never wanted to give up for sure. The only reason I felt like it got to that point is because. And I'm sure you felt similar is because it would go on for so long and then by the end, we would resolve it, but then it would start all over again. Or, you know, I would say something and then it would cause you to be upset or defensive. But I never. I don't ever want to draw a line in the sand. I just wanted to be able to talk to you. And I know you probably feel the exact same with me when I get defensive. And, you know, I do need to work on it like you have, and I do plan to do that because it is hard. But I just am worried with, like, people focusing on, oh, I'm not emotionally safe, especially with this day and age, people will be like, oh, that means I need to give up. I'm not safe here.

John [00:28:09]: You shouldn't give up.

Nicole [00:28:11]: This can't be fixed.

John [00:28:12]: You should have another conversation saying that, hey, this is very important to me. When I try to talk to you and I try to share my emotions with you, and you respond by being defensive by deflecting, by shutting me down, by making me feel bad for having the emotions, it makes it hard for me to talk to. And this is very important that I want to address this. Now, unfortunately, that can be responded with a very defensive answer. So it's really up to the person who's like, you should have to keep on having the conversation because it's important, because it has to be fixed in the relationship. It's a must fix. It's not like a maybe is a must fix. So I agree with you. You shouldn't give up. But it really is up to the person to put down the walls for a second to actually hear that. But I think the More you can convey how important it is to you in a calm way and show what it's doing to you, then the more likely you are to get through to the person. But it is hard to get through to a person when they're defensive. And then anything you say about still is gonna be responded with a defensiveness.

Nicole [00:29:26]: Yeah. I mean, I think you also do have to be careful of how you say things, because people act like they're being vulnerable and they're just attacking the other person, and that's not being vulnerable. Or like you say, you phrase something in a way that's kind of passive aggressive, rather than being like, I'm really sad and I'm really hurt. Like, this hurt me. It made me feel like you don't love me or whatever. Actually be vulnerable rather than being like, you always just never even think about me. Like, that's projecting and that is gonna cause someone to be defensive.

John [00:30:08]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:30:08]: Like, you really shouldn't use words like always, never, any of those things because they're 99% of the time not even legitimate. And they will cause somebody to defend

John [00:30:21]: themselves because there's always an exception.

Nicole [00:30:24]: Right.

John [00:30:24]: And they can always find the exception. And then you've.

Nicole [00:30:27]: And then you're arguing.

John [00:30:28]: Now they're gonna argue. They're arguing the exception. Instead of. You can say in these three instances, you did this. Right. And they can argue those instances.

Nicole [00:30:37]: Or like, recently I felt like you haven't really been paying attention to what I've been saying. Or I don't know, you know what I mean? Like, recently.

John [00:30:45]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:30:46]: Or you know, for the past, like three times, like you said. Or whatever. Like. Like you need. Like it's not your responsibility. But also at the same time, you have to realize that you could be phrasing things in a way that is going to trigger somebody to be defensive. And again, like, you should be intentional with your word.

John [00:31:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:10]: Especially if you're bringing up your feelings again. Like, the emotional safety of it is that if it's not perfect, like, you should still be able to not be defensive. Even if someone says something passive aggressive to you or says always or never, hear them out. And then at the end be like, hey, I really want to work on us being able to work through things a lot easier if we can. So can we not say these certain words, like always, never, because they're not realistic and they just cause both of us to be defensive. Or when you are coming to me because you're hurt about something, can you be actually vulnerable, not passive aggressive with it? You Know what I mean? Which is not easy to do in the moment when we're hurt. It's not easy to remember these things. But with practice you can do it and it will make your discussions better. And I need to do this. I need to. To not take things personally, to get defensive about and to be careful of the things that I say and ask clarifying questions instead of assuming things. That's another thing that can get people into a lot of trouble is, you

John [00:32:23]: know, what do you mean by this? This is what I heard. That's a good. Like when you said this, this is how I interpreted it. Is that what you meant?

Nicole [00:32:33]: Right.

John [00:32:34]: That's always a good check.

Nicole [00:32:35]: But also be. You should still be, like I said, intentional with the things that you're saying. Because sometimes things are said in a vague way and it is gonna be confusing and then you can't be upset if someone's confused about it. You get what I mean? It's a slippery slope. So if you come from a place of, if you're hurt, trying to come from a vulnerable place, not be like, you never do this. Cause the thing is with your partner, why do you want to act like they never do this to you? That's not true. Never doing it is not true. So why don't you want to handle it in a way that's going to actually get them involved in your hurt with you? Does that make sense? Because when you choose fighting, I want to say fighting or words that kind of like attack somebody, it doesn't have to be full on, like you're an asshole. You know, it can be like passive aggressive. Like when we're hurt, we do still tend to, like I say, we just like us in general as human beings, want to like, dig at the other person a little bit. Want them to feel our pain just a little bit. And that doesn't really make us feel. Feel any better because it causes more problems when you're trying to fix it.

John [00:34:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:01]: And so again, women, I think, really struggle with this because I think women will throw things like emotional safety or you triggered me to try to control people, right?

John [00:34:15]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:34:16]: Or try to use it as a get out of jail free card. And that's not acceptable.

John [00:34:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:25]: And just like, you know, it's not acceptable for me to be defensive. It's not acceptable for me to deflect. It's not acceptable for me to do all these things.

John [00:34:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:34]: And I want you to be able to talk to me about it and I appreciate you talking to me about it. Even when you're in a state where you're upset and you're trying to get through to me. And so, like, I'm sorry that I have not made you feel emotionally safe, but I appreciate you being in it with me so that we can get to a place where you do feel emotionally safe and that I learn from the things that I've done. Because that's the thing is, like, if you just give up.

John [00:35:05]: Yeah, that's no good.

Nicole [00:35:07]: If you can't hear what your partner has to say, you're never gonna learn from those things. You're gonna be repeating the same things over and over again, if not worse. It's gonna spread like, your arguments are gonna get worse, and you might end up divorced. But if you can be in it with each other, if you can hear those hard things, if you can be open to what the person has to say, if you can not defend yourself, if you cannot deflect, if you can face it, if you can be intentional with your words, if you can be vulnerable, those will all help you in your relationship, and you will feel emotionally safe, and you will feel like you can talk to your partner about anything, even if you have to tell them hard things about themselves.

John [00:35:53]: Yeah. Yeah. So I agree. I agree. Yeah. I think it's just a matter of, like, you know, you can't just cut bait on every. The whole point of the relationship is to grow. And so you can't just go, I can't be hurt. Or, you know, it's like, you don't just give up on. You have to figure out how can you work through, how can you be heard so that you can indicate how important this is and then deal with that issue. Right.

Nicole [00:36:23]: It is hard if the other person's committed to not. I get that. But if the person loves you and you guys are trying to be the best versions of yourself and work through it, then you will get there, and you do have to show up. And that's the thing is, like, look, I've been in the position you're talking about where I did feel like at one point of our relationship that everything we talked about was an argument in some ways, and it was defeating. But I knew what we had, and I knew that I believed in you. And I don't know what, again, what conversation it was that made you really think about it. But I am glad that you focused on it and that we've got through it, and now I need to do the same and show up like that

John [00:37:16]: for you, I think it just. For me, it just Became like, a habit of recognizing and then just knowing how to respond. And even. Just like, even. I'll give you a good example. When your water bottle was lost this weekend. I won't name any names. And you had texted me, and at first I was like, the way that you had sent the first text was like, I can't find it anywhere. It sounded very accusatory towards me. And then. And then at first, I wanted to really justify and be like, oh, it's not my fault. And then as I started. I started thinking about the text when I was reading the text. And like, you had said, I think you owe me an apology. Because I had said that it was. You said it was there, it was there, and it wasn't there. And I didn't know it wasn't there. I wasn't the one who didn't put it there. But. But my point is that at that point, when you said that you owe me an apology for that, I was thinking about this and I was like, okay, I can respond and I can be defensive, and I can be like, it's not my fault. I thought this was there and that's why, and blah, blah, blah. Or I can recognize that you're upset right now for whatever reason, whatever I think about the situation, you're upset. And what I need to do instead of being defensive is acknowledge that you're upset and give you what you need right now, which is to acknowledge that you have a right to be upset and that I'm sorry that. That I told you it was there when it wasn't there. Not, like, no explanation for the reason why or whatever, or like someone else took it, which was what happened. But that doesn't matter because I could go down that road and then we're gonna be discussing it for three hours instead, because that is defensive. It's like, regardless of the reasoning for it, just when that comes up now, I think about it, I stop. I'm like, what does she need right now? What would I need if I were in her place right now? What would I want to hear? Right? It's not an admission of guilt. It's just like, I'm sorry. And understanding of that you're upset. I understand this. And even when I came home, I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm sorry that I can understand how that's disturbing to you or how that upsets you and listen to you, because that's what I would want. You know what I'm saying? Like, but that was an example of, like, of what goes through My head now is like, because you still want to be defensive, right? But then I realized, like, okay, that is being defensive. If I try to counter this or try to say, make some reasoning for it or excuse for it or say, I don't owe you an apology. I didn't take the water bottle, whatever it is, like, all of those things are defensive. Like, that's not.

Nicole [00:40:29]: Well, I'm more so mad because you told me it was there and then it wasn't there.

John [00:40:33]: Right, right.

Nicole [00:40:34]: So, like, in my mind, that is like, if you're confident. You know what I mean? Like, that's. I didn't think it was your fault.

John [00:40:43]: No, no, no. But still, like, yeah, exactly. That's why you're upset. And so I don't need to defend that. Like, I did tell you it was there, Right. And even now. Right, Even now, Right. Like, you just told me this. This is a perfect example of life. Right? Because you just told me why you're upset because I told you that it was there. If I'm confident enough. So what do I need to give you in this moment? I agree with you. You're right. That's what you want to hear. And then it's not just to like to. But it's because that makes you feel like I heard you and understood you. And I'm not defending it. Whether I agree 100% with, like, I can come up with my own narration of like, well, yeah, but I didn't know that it wasn't there, which is true. But that's not what you want to hear. That doesn't help. That's defensive. If I say, yeah, you're right. I told you it was there. I acted confident. So I do owe you an apology because I asserted that and I hadn't checked for myself and I turned out to be wrong.

Nicole [00:41:47]: Right.

John [00:41:47]: How much better does that make you feel that I just said that right now than if I would have gone down a different road?

Nicole [00:41:52]: A lot better.

John [00:41:53]: Right. And that's what I figured out and learned. And it's true. Right. So that's the thing that goes through my head now is like, thinking about that situation and processing it that way. Because what benefit do I have if I go the other way? Just a little bit of ego. Right. Then my ego's in. I'm like. Because I could have responded just now and I could have said, yeah, but. Yeah, but I. Like, I thought it was there, and that's why I said it was there. I didn't say it was there. Cause I was lying to you or to deceive you. I thought it was there because I saw it there. Right. It doesn't even make you feel good when I'm saying it right now. I can see in your face. Right, but because there's no because. If I said all that stuff because

Nicole [00:42:34]: I'm trying not to defend what you're saying now.

John [00:42:37]: Right. But I'm saying I could have said that. Right. But if I said all that stuff exactly, like, how does it make you feel? It doesn't make you feel any good. It doesn't do anything good for me either. Instead, just to acknowledge your viewpoint. Because you're trying to share your viewpoint with me when you're trying to share.

Nicole [00:42:53]: I'm just trying to get the water bottle.

John [00:42:55]: Exactly. Yeah. But if I then overtop your viewpoint with mine, which is what defensiveness is, as mine's trumping yours, then it doesn't do you any good. It doesn't do me any good. It doesn't get you what you're. You felt a lot better when I said the first thing. Then even when I just explained the second thing. I'm not even telling you the second thing, but just talked about the second thing. It still probably made you feel a certain way because it's defensive. And that's what I think. That's a good example, though.

Nicole [00:43:26]: Yeah. It's not taking accountability, which, look, like you said, you don't have to agree with everything because it's gonna be fueled by some emotion. I mean, with the water bottle thing, I was not emotional. I just wanted the water bottle. But with an emotional thing, sure, there's definitely gonna be emotions there, and you're gonna want to defend your emotions even more than defending a water bottle.

John [00:43:47]: But I do agree with you with the water bottle, and you had the right to be upset, and I did tell you that it was there, and I was wrong about it. And I did owe you an apology.

Nicole [00:43:57]: Yeah, you did. So, but like, you were saying, like, it's just about the accountability of it. Especially, like, I needed to do that yesterday. Or was it yesterday?

John [00:44:11]: Yeah, no, I think it was the

Nicole [00:44:13]: day before, two days ago, when we had the conversation that we had. And, like, that is important. That's an important part of it. And, like, I was focused on making sure you had the story 100,000% correct. And that's not the important thing. Now, if, like, you. You're saying I hit you and I didn't hit you, I don't know how I would handle that because I would probably get defensive. But the Other stuff that we were talking about, it was not. Your emotions were way more important than getting the story precisely how it was or whatever was going on in my mind that was making me defend everything. I do think accountability goes into it, especially with women. I mean, men talk about all the time that women don't take accountability. Accountability for the things, you know, especially in emotional instances, I'm sure, because like you said, they tend to be like, they don't say out loud explicitly, but that they're the only ones that are allowed to be emotional. And guys probably don't feel heard by a lot of the women in their life.

John [00:45:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:19]: But they can be emotional. So women do have to. Women have to give men what they want from men. And so I have to work on giving you exactly what you just explained that you give me because it does feel better, like you said, and it's not worth the slight ego boost to be correct.

John [00:45:41]: And that's what I was saying. I think it just becomes a habit where you pause and you think about it and then you feel better. You know what I mean? Like, I don't feel better when I'm defending myself. I think in the moment that I'll feel better defending myself, but then I feel misunderstood because you're definitely not gonna be empathetic to my defense. You're never gonna be like. You're never gonna defend yourself. And the other person's gonna be like, oh, you're right. That's. Oh, yeah. That's a really good explanation you had for that. I didn't even realize that was true.

Nicole [00:46:10]: How long has that ever happened?

John [00:46:11]: Never is gonna happen. Right?

Nicole [00:46:13]: Yeah.

John [00:46:14]: But you do feel a lot better when you just make the other person feel understood.

Nicole [00:46:19]: Right. Well, and put yourself in their shoes. Like you said.

John [00:46:22]: That's the important thing. It's not about being right or wrong. It's not about, like, you know, the ego part gets in there. But I, like you said, I have made it a habit now where it comes automatic to me to think about it and choose how I'm going to respond and realize that, okay. I can in. My instinct is still to be defensive.

Nicole [00:46:46]: Yeah.

John [00:46:46]: But my habit comes into play where it's like, okay, no, I don't. I don't. I don't respond that way.

Nicole [00:46:52]: Yeah. Which I do think the defensiveness and things like that are a huge part of the emotional safety. But I will say the words, too, because people can say really nasty things to people when they're upset and then act like they should just forgive them or that it's okay because they were emotional. And that's never okay. No, like, it's not. Like, if you're doing it right now, you need to learn to not. Because if you, when you're in an argument or disagreement with your partner, are slinging out nasty things and it doesn't even have to be like you're a bitch or whatever, it can be like something fucked up about something else in your life that's not okay. Or it's like, you know, even, like I said, even like microaggressions or like passive aggressive comments while you're trying to be vulnerable. That's not actually being vulnerable. Like, that is you picking a fight in the middle of. You're trying to feel heard and understood and be vulnerable, but you're picking a fight when you use words like that. And I do think that matters. Again, I think the defensiveness and things like that, the deflection, the not taking accountability, the silent treatment or whatever, those things are bigger. But I will say that if you're just careless with the way that you say things when you're upset, that will cause all the bigger problems to start happening, if they're not already happening as well.

John [00:48:24]: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah. Then you can't expect emotional safety if you're actually emotionally attacking.

Nicole [00:48:34]: Exactly.

John [00:48:35]: Then it's kind of ridiculous to smack someone in the head and then run away and then be like, hey, they're trying to hurt me. It's like, well, you smack them in the head first.

Nicole [00:48:46]: So, yeah, I don't know.

John [00:48:47]: They're attacking me, but you smack them in the head.

Nicole [00:48:51]: Yeah. Like, you hurt my feelings. You're an asshole. Like, yeah, okay. You're really expecting somebody to hear you out after you just attacked to them.

John [00:49:02]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:04]: Like, I don't. That's not gonna work very well for you at all. And then also you have to deal with the fact that now your partner is like, wow, they think I'm an asshole now they have to deal with that. Now you have a whole nother problem that you just created.

John [00:49:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:16]: So.

John [00:49:17]: But yeah, but I do think a lot of. A lot of people hide behind the emotional safety. And like we said, a lot of women, Relationships will hide behind that. And that's not because it's a double standard in the sense that, like, what they would not tolerate, they're expecting to be tolerated. That's not. Okay.

Nicole [00:49:36]: No, that's. What do you call that? Double standard.

John [00:49:39]: Double standard? Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:41]: Or what's the other word?

John [00:49:42]: I'm trying to think of another word. I think it's double standard. I don't know, like a. I don't know what other.

Nicole [00:49:51]: I don't have a word. I feel like there's another word.

John [00:49:53]: I feel like it's the perfect word. But is there something else?

Nicole [00:49:55]: I'm thinking of another word. I don't know. It'll come to me.

John [00:50:04]: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah. Because I think a lot of times that is the case. And that has to be. Because sometimes also. And this is where it happens with women a lot. Because, remember we did an episode of Men are Afraid of Women. This is why men are afraid of women.

Nicole [00:50:19]: Because they're not emotionally safe with women.

John [00:50:21]: Because they're like, it's not worth the juice, isn't worth the squeeze. Because they don't want to rock the boat. They know what's gonna happen every time that they say something. So they just. They're like, okay, I'm never gonna say anything. Cause it's like every single thing becomes a big knockdown fight when I'm just trying to say how I feel about a thing.

Nicole [00:50:42]: Yeah. And so that's hard.

John [00:50:44]: So then they're afraid. So then they get in situations where the woman is just running the show because it's just the cost is too great to try and stop her or to say anything that's bothering you. So that's a big deal.

Nicole [00:50:59]: And she probably makes it worse, honestly. Because a lot of women don't want to hear what they're doing. Because like I said in the last episode, a lot of even women friendships, they don't want friends that hold them accountable. They want friends that validate them.

John [00:51:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:16]: I can't see those women being any different in relationship.

John [00:51:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:19]: So you know what I say to everybody and what I truly mean is that if the people closest to you can't help you address and work on the bad parts of you or the bad habits you have, then no one can.

John [00:51:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:38]: So again, like, your partner should not be, like, calling you a bitch or an asshole. They should still be explaining it to you in a way where you feel like they want to help you work through this situation.

John [00:51:53]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:51:54]: But you should listen to them.

John [00:51:55]: Maybe unilateral is the.

Nicole [00:51:57]: No, no. Nice try, though. I don't know.

John [00:52:03]: I think it's double standard, maybe.

Nicole [00:52:06]: I feel like there's another, like, one word word. Like, it's ironic that, like, women.

John [00:52:20]: Hypocritical.

Nicole [00:52:21]: Hypocritical.

John [00:52:22]: Okay. That's the one I didn't even need to use. AI Look, I have my own brain Hypocritical.

Nicole [00:52:27]: Yeah, it's hypocritical.

John [00:52:30]: So, like, yeah, you did it. And then hide behind the emotional safety.

Nicole [00:52:34]: Yeah, I'm really over. Obviously, the, like, hiding behind words. Like emotional safety therapy words.

John [00:52:41]: Exactly. The boundary thing becomes the same thing as, like, a true boundary is like, it's not imposing what someone else is going to do. It's like, what you're going to do in a situation. But then also, again, it's like, it has to be very. Because those things mix together. The emotional safety and the boundary thing is like, I'm setting a boundary because I'm not emotionally safe is what happens. And then it's like, look, in the course of a discussion, you only set the boundary if it's really important to set the boundary. It's like someone's calling you names. Someone's doing something like that. Because otherwise you're shutting down. If you're like, okay. If you say that if someone is

Nicole [00:53:23]: defensive, it does make you want to shut down. Like, extremely defensive.

John [00:53:26]: I think to be like, I would. Even then, like, you cannot be like, okay, I'm setting a boundary. If you respond defensively to me, then I'm not gonna have this conversation anymore.

Nicole [00:53:38]: I don't think it would be that. I think it would be if you aren't gonna hear me out and actually listen to what I'm gonna have to say,

John [00:53:47]: that's also interpretive. I think that's still not a place to set a boundary. I think it's better to say, can you agree to hearing what I have to say without responding to it and then repeating back to me in your words, just so I understand that you understand what I'm saying. And then whatever your response is to that, we can address that afterwards. But I want to be heard first and make sure that you understand what I'm saying.

Nicole [00:54:16]: That's a good way to put it.

John [00:54:17]: I think that's a fair way to put it. Rather than. Because it just becomes like, the boundary becomes a shutdown. It's like, okay, because it's interpreted like, okay, if you say, if you can't listen to what I'm saying, then I'm not gonna have this conversation. The other person thinks they're listening to what you're saying, but they're also saying what they have to say. So it's like, it becomes a very. Like, anytime you set about, like, the boundary has to be something serious. Like, okay, if you get in my face. Yeah. If you scream at me. Right. Like, yell at me. It has to be like, really yelling. Like, not an interpretive thing. Like, you're yelling a name at me or whatever. You call me a name, you slam. You're making a fist at me. Like you're threatening me. Like, any of those things. Those are like, where, okay, set the boundary right.

Nicole [00:55:04]: Like, making a fist at me, I'm calling the police. You make a fist at me, I'm calling the police.

John [00:55:10]: I'm just saying, like, these are areas where it makes sense to have a. Because setting the boundaries too early, restricting someone's actions makes it where. Now you're shutting down conversation and you're making it where it's like, especially when you're the one interpreting. It has to be a very unambiguous thing where it's not up to interpretation. Like, this is clearly a violation of the boundary. Right. It can't be like, so that's where I think. But the emotional safety and boundary thing goes right together.

Nicole [00:55:42]: I think you should just not even use any of these terms.

John [00:55:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:45]: Even if it's happening, just be like, okay, like, if someone's yelling at you, don't be like, you're going to cross my boundary or you've crossed my boundary. Be like, if you continue to yell at me, I'm going to walk away. You don't have to say, I'm implementing a boundary now. Or like, if you're having a conversation, someone's being defensive. You don't have to be like, I feel emotionally unsafe now. Yeah, Like, I think that people get in more problems and more trouble by throwing these words in there.

John [00:56:13]: Exactly. Well, and even the thing is like, even, like, let's take the yelling one. It's so much better to say before you even set the boundary to say, look, you're yelling at me. Can you please stop yelling at me so that we can have the conversation better? And then if they're still yelling at you, then to say, okay, I asked you to please stop yelling at me. You're still yelling at me. If you continue to do it, I'm going to have to end the conversation or walk away because I can't be yelled at. And I've asked you. Like, that's because the thing is, even when you read about boundaries, the thing I think people skip is you don't just immediately set a boundary. You call out the thing first and ask nicely for the person to stop. It'd be like, I'm trying to think of a good analogy of when you just immediately set a boundary. It's like, let's say you went into A store, and you were touching something that they didn't want you to touch, and they immediately said, if you touch that, you're gonna have to leave the store, that would feel extremely rude and very, like, confrontational. Right. But if they said to you, hey, excuse me, can you please not touch that? Right. And then if you still touched it, and then they said, if you continue to touch that, you're gonna have to. If you touch that again, you're gonna have to leave the store. Then. Now it's warranted. Now you don't feel like they have used the boundary to slap you in

Nicole [00:57:40]: the face unless it has a do not touch on it and you touch that.

John [00:57:44]: That's already the warning. That's already the warning.

Nicole [00:57:46]: But see, that's where I think is that you should already know not to yell at people.

John [00:57:50]: Yeah, but it's still, like, not everyone is, like, is aware.

Nicole [00:57:55]: Yeah.

John [00:57:55]: Yeah. Okay. But not everyone is always aware when they're getting emotional of what they're doing or where they're at. So it's like, even the same thing. You could even say with being defensive, which, again, I don't think about setting the boundary, but you can say, can you. When I talk to you, can you try to not, like, respond by defending yourself so that I can be heard? That's the first step before going to, hey, if you keep. But even then, I still don't think you should set the boundary and be like, if you're being defensive, I'm not gonna talk to you. Because that's not very conductive to the relationship. But definitely the yelling. Before you set a boundary, you should always give an ask first. It's rude to just to set an ultimatum.

Nicole [00:58:39]: It's rude to yell at people, though.

John [00:58:40]: It is. But it's rude to, before you set a boundary, to just go straight to a boundary.

Nicole [00:58:47]: I hear what you're saying, but I do think it's rude to also yell at people.

John [00:58:50]: I agree with you.

Nicole [00:58:51]: Sorry. I'm not trying to be defensive. I'm just like, if other people can have a conversation and be upset and not yell,

John [00:59:01]: I get it. But also, if other people can have a conversation and not be defensive, then, like, anything that you say, you can make an argument and be like this. Like, every protocol that is violated is violated. Like, you know, like, you're gonna violate some protocols.

Nicole [00:59:16]: Okay, you're right. Don't yell at me.

John [00:59:22]: Okay.

Nicole [00:59:23]: Not that you're yelling now.

John [00:59:24]: I'm not.

Nicole [00:59:24]: Just don't yell at me.

John [00:59:26]: Okay, I won't yell at you. You're too beautiful to yell at. Thank you. All right. Got anything else?

Nicole [00:59:35]: I think covered all of it.

John [00:59:36]: Okay, well, that's it for this week. If you have a question for us or topic. Yeah, don't type it all in caps.

Nicole [00:59:45]: Don't yell at me.

John [00:59:49]: You can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com and check out the website. Subscribe. We got some it's better than perfect podcast. We have a lot. We have, like, 20 some subscribers in there, but they're weird email. Like, none of them are Gmail addresses. So I feel like it's some kind of, like, bot or something or some kind of spam thing. So I don't know. Like, I want to see some real people. Yeah, real, real. It's for real people, not for AI. That's right. All right, we'll see you next.

John [00:00:00]: If I was a woman, I wouldn't tell my friend group shit about guy I was dating. I would not love.

Nicole [00:00:06]: Then what are you supposed to do? Just show up with a husband?

John [00:00:08]: Yes. Oh, it's just like Love is blind when those idiots start telling everyone about who they're dating. If I was on Love is Blind, I wouldn't tell anybody shit. You don't know. Is this girl gonna DM your guy?

Nicole [00:00:18]: So get rid of the girl. Yeah, but you wanna know if you have a girl like that in your circle so you can get rid of her.

John [00:00:23]: Yeah, but you might not know until she sabotaged your relationship.

Nicole [00:00:26]: Well, then that's not your man. If she could steal your man, that's not your man.

John [00:00:29]: Beyond the perfect we disc through our flaws we complete each other Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:54]: That's right. And now I don't have anything in my teeth.

John [00:00:58]: You didn't have anything in your teeth. No one would know unless you said it now. Now they're gonna go back and watch the previous episode and zoom in on their.

Nicole [00:01:07]: Yeah, go watch the previous episode and look for the stuff in my teeth. Watch it like five times. Screenshot it, put it in the comments.

John [00:01:14]: And I'm not allowed to tell any jokes on this episode?

Nicole [00:01:16]: I didn't say that. I just said, let's keep it a little more serious than the last time.

John [00:01:24]: We'll try. We'll try. I'll do my best. What are we talking about today?

Nicole [00:01:31]: Friends Fluence. I think that's what they called it.

John [00:01:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:35]: Should friends influence your relationships? Your romantic relationships? I'm curious what you think, actually.

John [00:01:43]: Yeah, so I think absolutely not.

Nicole [00:01:45]: Never?

John [00:01:47]: Yes. 100% never. Not in the least way. I think you should completely. Whatever they say, you should ignore their advice. Just like you would ask them, what is your favorite pizza topping? And you would take just as much credence to that question. Cause it's your pizza. Like, okay, what does it matter what their favorite pizza topping is? Okay, but you're the one eating the pizza.

Nicole [00:02:11]: They're your friend.

John [00:02:12]: Yeah, but you're the one eating the pizza.

Nicole [00:02:13]: Yeah, but they know you as well, too.

John [00:02:16]: Yeah, but different.

Nicole [00:02:17]: You're not asking them, hey, should I date this person because you like them? That's not how this works.

John [00:02:24]: Yeah, but different floats for different boats. You know, like, I just made that up. But like, you know, like different people have different preferences and. Okay, so here's the biggest reason why. Okay, so first of all, people like different things, right?

Nicole [00:02:40]: Yeah.

John [00:02:41]: Second of all, everyone's biased, right? And they have their own biases, but their own motives and whatnot. So it's like, okay, let's say that you're dating someone who's really great and who's awesome and your friend's actually attracted to this person because they're so awesome,

Nicole [00:03:04]: so you think they're sabotaging.

John [00:03:07]: Then what are they giving you? An objective answer?

Nicole [00:03:09]: What kind of friends do you have subconsciously?

John [00:03:13]: They're not purposely doing this. Right? You see what I'm saying? It's like no matter what, there's going to be, it's not going to be a neutral party type of thing. You know what I'm saying? Plus, also, what are you sharing with them? You're giving them a narrated and edited story of this person. Unless they're directly observing your interactions with this person. But even then you're having public interactions. But they're not in there in the conversation, right? They're not in there in the bedroom. They're not, you know, like most likely you're venting to them and so they're hearing all the bad stuff.

Nicole [00:03:53]: But what if they're not?

John [00:03:55]: Then what? They're certainly not hearing a neutral perspective, an unbiased perspective. When you're talking to them about this person, you're either like infatuated with this person and they're giving you, you're giving them your infatuation story or you're annoyed with them and you're giving them the bad stuff. You're never giving them a true picture to judge from. And even if you gave them the perfect true picture to judge from, it could be just like this is the pizza topping they like. Maybe they like to have abusive relationship. And then who knows, whatever their flavor of relationship is, it might not be the same. It's not going to be the same.

Nicole [00:04:39]: I would like to bring something to evidence, but I'm not going to because it would not be very good.

John [00:04:48]: But wait a minute, hold on. You can't say that. What is the thing you would like to bring to evidence?

Nicole [00:04:55]: You had told me a long time ago that one of your friends said parents came to you and said some things and you didn't believe them and then you ended up down the road that you were dating.

John [00:05:08]: Okay, okay, hold on. Let's just address that real quick. So they didn't even meet my ex wife at all. They just literally was just like, he

Nicole [00:05:21]: must have heard from his son, though.

John [00:05:23]: I don't think so. I think he was just like, don't get married. I'll give you money to.

Nicole [00:05:27]: I mean, you were young, so that's probably why.

John [00:05:30]: Yeah, I think that's.

Nicole [00:05:31]: But also, it could have saved you from some heartbreaking situation.

John [00:05:37]: I mean. Okay, so. Okay, so you do bring up a decent point then, in the sense that, like, maybe someone can help you identify a red flag that you're blind to maybe. Right, but they can also make a

Nicole [00:05:50]: red flag out of nothing.

John [00:05:51]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:05:51]: I agree.

John [00:05:52]: So it would be better to just use your own judgment and have your own standards and decide things for yourself.

Nicole [00:06:00]: Okay, here's my take on this is. I think you should have conversations with your friends. I think with women it's different, but ultimately you make the decision because like you said, yes, people can make red flags out of nothing, but also people can point out red flags. And if you're really honest with yourself, you should be able to recognize, is this person making something out of nothing? Are they being too cautious? Or is this something that they're actually seeing that I don't see? Because I think there's value in both. And again, we kind of talked about this a little bit, like, right before we started recording this. But when you and I met, I showed my best friend a video that you had made me, and she was skeptical. And, you know, I listened to her and I understood where she was coming from.

John [00:06:57]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:58]: But I didn't follow through with cutting you off. And again, maybe. Well, she didn't even tell me to cut you off. Honestly. She was just like, I don't know, you know about this. Like, he is an influencer guy. Maybe he's just trying to get, you know, she was being cautious. And I appreciated that from my friend.

John [00:07:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:18]: But also, I knew that she's also my friend, so she is going to support the decision that I make at the same time. And I think that's the difference, too. Right. Like, yes, there might be some friends that have some bad ulterior motives, but that's a bad friend, honestly. And it's kind of better to learn that sooner rather than later. And I've had friends like that as well, too. I had a girl that was in my girl group of friends.

John [00:07:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:44]: And she sent me a screenshot of one of our other friends, guys that she was talking to. And she sent me a screenshot of her matching with the guy. And I was like, what kind of friend are you? Like, to Match with one of our other friends, person that they're talking to, and then send me evidence of it, like, to prove that, like, he also likes you. You know what I mean? I was like, that's like behavior that I think is a little too.

John [00:08:13]: They weren't dating, though. They're just.

Nicole [00:08:15]: No, but they had gone on quite a few dates.

John [00:08:18]: That's dating. More than one date is dating.

Nicole [00:08:22]: Okay, well, then they were dating, but they weren't official.

John [00:08:24]: That's fine.

Nicole [00:08:24]: But either way, I was like. I immediately sent it to the friend that was talking to the guy. And then I immediately told the friend who sent me the screenshot. I was like, that's not cool. I don't wanna be friends with someone like that. That is that sort of behavior that you're talking about. Like, that is someone that would sabotage your relationship because they want it or something. And again, this stuff can happen without you having to be like FBI agent to figure out if your friends are shiesty or not. Like, sometimes your friend's gonna blindside you with some stuff that you don't know. Yeah, but I think in the beginning I'm definitely would be talking to my friends about who I'm dating and whatever, but at the end of the day, I know me. And the thing is too, the same friend that told me, like, hey, he's an influencer. She knew from the second I sent her a picture of you that you were my type. And that's the difference. You're saying that people have different types. And I think maybe for men it's different because I think men will give you the advice of what they think is attractive versus my friend knew what I think is attractive, and it's not the same as what she thinks is attractive.

John [00:09:30]: True, true. I mean, yes, yes. But I think the fact still remains that. How could I put this? The advice that you're getting. Okay, so there's so many reasons why it's 90% bad and 10% good. There's so many reasons that way in that it's bad. There's so many ways I can come up with. So one of them is, is, okay, let's say that you're both single. Right. What does every person who has a friend know that happens when a single person gets into a relationship? Bye, bye, friend. Bye bye, friend. You're not going to be spending time with your friend anymore because they're in a relationship. Because as soon as people get together, then the friendship that they have with their single friend starts to diminish. So they don't really want you to be in a relationship subconsciously, you know what I'm saying? So there's so many things that can influence them that they're not even aware of that are influencing them, and there's no good. Okay, if you're sharing some stuff about who you're dating, fine. But if you're taking advice about who you're dating, that's bad. The chances of them giving you bad advice is way higher than them giving you good advice. And, and even if you don't ultimately listen to the advice, I mean, you should count it as if with zero credibility at all. Like 0%, 0%. Don't even regard it at all because it's so heavily weighted in being bad advice that it doesn't deserve any kind of play in your decision making. The only exception I would give is if it's like you're an idiot and your friends are not idiots and you have been proven to be an idiot in relationships and your friend has proven to not be an idiot in relationships, and they're acting more as a coach. They're coaching you and they're like, okay, you are infatuated with this guy that just got out of rehab and has been in prison five times and he's broke and you just like him because he's an asshole and he doesn't like you and you had a bad relationship with your father and you have no self respect for yourself, so that's why you're picking him. And I can see it because I know you as a friend and pick a different guy.

Nicole [00:12:07]: Yeah, that person's not even gonna take your advice.

John [00:12:10]: Exactly. So that's what I'm saying is it's like the only situation where it even makes sense if you already know you're an idiot and, and you don't know anything about dating and you have no judgment for yourself and your friends are a better judge and they're acting as a coach to you and you trust their judgment better than yours. Other than that, you need to trust your own judgment because it's not gonna be good. That's my.

Nicole [00:12:30]: I don't have any regrets on how I operated. I mean, I don't have to worry about this anymore. But I still stand by, though. In the beginning, granted. Now, if you're heavily influenced and you're not confident in your dating or in the person you're dating, it is a bad ide because of course, whatever anybody's gonna say is gonna influence you. But if you're solid in your dating experience, I don't think it really matters as, like, I'm not saying it can't still bite you in the ass. Like, you could still listen to what your friend said and know that your friend has good intentions, but you could end up ruining it with somebody that you really like. But I think that if you're in tuned with what you want, right, and your experience with the person. Cause again, like you said, you can't explain everything to this person. You can't explain the stories. Just like, I mean, now my same friend that was like, watch out, you know, like, she wants nothing but good things for us. Like, she's very supportive. And even when she said that, I told her, you know, in that moment, I was like, no, I know that this is different. You know what I mean? And she accepted that.

John [00:13:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:38]: So the thing is that your friend should also hear you out and support you as well too. I think that, like, I wouldn't ask just random friends. It would be people really close to me, people that, like, knew me. People knew that my experience. And again, even if I came to them, right, I would still trust that. I know myself better than they do, and I know the experience better than they do, but I would still want to hear them out because again, what if they did point out something that maybe I had overlooked? Or what if they were like, you know, watch out for this, or I saw him post with his girlfriend like two days ago.

John [00:14:22]: Okay, well, that's different.

Nicole [00:14:23]: Because women are gonna be like, AI, not AI FBI agents. And we're like, that's different.

John [00:14:30]: That's not asking for advice. That's not having a friend vet your relationship. That's having them sleuth, which is different. That's fine. I agree. Let women sleuth for each other. That's fine.

Nicole [00:14:43]: Do men sleuth? Men should sleuth. What are you gonna sleuth about 20, 26. Men should sleuth.

John [00:14:51]: It's just like, okay, think of it this way also, right? Here's another argument. It's like, okay, imagine that I had a friend that you did have a

Nicole [00:15:00]: friend that said, you shouldn't go out with me. You should go out with the girl that he looked like he liked.

John [00:15:06]: But that's a different thing than some attribute of you, you know what I'm saying? Dating you and then him being like, yeah, I don't think she's the right fit for you. Imagine if I had a friend right now that had told me, I don't think she's the right girl for you. I don't Think you should marry her? That person would have.

Nicole [00:15:24]: Nobody told you that.

John [00:15:25]: No one told me that.

Nicole [00:15:27]: That's a good thing.

John [00:15:28]: Yeah, but imagine if I had that friend now. I don't think I would have that friend now. Right. Like, that friendship could not survive the marriage.

Nicole [00:15:37]: That's true.

John [00:15:38]: Right, because you would never want to ever be me hanging around with that guy. Because what if he still thinks that? What if he slips that in? What if he subconsciously influences me or influences me in that direction? You sabotage the relationship. So it goes both ways. So, number one, I will never give a friend advice about a relationship. Like, whether that, like, vet a person, because I know that that is the end of the friendship if that relationship continues and I gave them negative advice because that. I know. I'm. I've just. In fact, we know someone who did this, and they got excommunicado out of. Out of a friendship because they did this because they opened their mouth against the person. And then, number two, I would never take the advice because I don't also. I don't want to even listen. I'm not even gonna ask a friend in order for them to put their foot in their mouth and then become excommunicado.

Nicole [00:16:32]: Well, okay, here's the thing is, like, I agree that if someone's like, I don't think that's the woman for you, because that should be later on in the relationship. I think that even if they said it, like, three dates, in which was the situation, like, with the video thing.

John [00:16:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:51]: That to me, is not the same as later on. They had been like, oh, I don't think that you belong with him, or whatever. Like, that's totally different. Like, if you're gonna be a bold enough friend to say, I don't think that's the person for you, or you shouldn't be with them. Yeah, you better come with some receipts of, like, they're abusing you in some way that you don't realize. They're. I don't know, they're doing some. They got some secret life stuff going on that I've uncovered through the FBI. Like, you better come with something like that if you're throwing out things like that.

John [00:17:27]: Or just stay out of it. Or just stay out of it, which is possible. Like, if someone asks me, I'll tell you what, you want relationship coaching? I'll help you with your relationship. I'll coach you on your relationship. You want me to vet a person? Hell to the nah. I am not touching that shit. I'm not touching it.

Nicole [00:17:44]: Are less likely to do this than women are. Cause I think women would be more like, do you think this is a good guy? Like, they're more willing to ask their friends those things.

John [00:17:55]: Yeah. I would still not touch it. I would suggest to not touch it.

Nicole [00:17:59]: I mean, that is the safer option. But it's also like, as a woman, you want to help your friend as well, too. And I'm not saying that you should be like, he sucks. Some guys do suck. I'm not gonna sit here and say that I haven't told one of my friends who was dating a really crappy guy, like, treating her very poorly. And she was going above and beyond for this guy who was treating her poorly that she shouldn't be with him.

John [00:18:27]: But was she an idiot?

Nicole [00:18:29]: She stayed with him for a while. She's not with him anymore.

John [00:18:31]: But was she an idiot at that time?

Nicole [00:18:34]: I guess so.

John [00:18:35]: Okay. And so that falls into the, like, coaching an idiot.

Nicole [00:18:38]: You're still supposed to love your friend, even if they're doing something that's not the smartest thing. But, like, she knew, though, that she would come to me about these problems and I'd be like, look, like, this isn't. This doesn't seem like a guy that's really treating you well.

John [00:18:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:56]: And then she'd still choose to stay with him. So then she became afraid to tell me things.

John [00:19:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:02]: But then when she really wanted advice, she would be like, actually tell me. I don't care what you have to say.

John [00:19:07]: Like, just say you're making the opposite of your case. But.

Nicole [00:19:09]: But, no, but I think that that's because you should still be honest with your friends. They didn't get married, and that was only because he was treating her really poorly.

John [00:19:23]: Yeah. Yeah. Which I get. Which is fine. That's like, if someone's being treated really poorly in the relationship to give your friend that advice. But then the advice becomes more like, these are the standards you need to have for yourself. Like, you shouldn't allow yourself to be treated this way, as opposed to, this guy's not the guy for you.

Nicole [00:19:45]: That's true.

John [00:19:46]: You know what I'm saying? It's better to approach it. It's more of, like, therapy, coaching advice, relationship advice, versus. Because the other thing is. Which.

Nicole [00:19:54]: That's a good way to phrase it. Maybe that women do need to focus more on that. Focus more on helping your friend with their standards rather than about the person.

John [00:20:04]: But that's why vetting is kind of what we asked. That's why I'm saying I'm against the vetting. I'm not against the coaching. I'm not against the helping people with the relationship, obviously, but the vetting, relying on other people to vet.

Nicole [00:20:16]: Like you said, it's hard to vet because if one of our friends came to us and was like, tell us if this guy is good or if this girl is good, we would have to bring them on the podcast or something and be like, ask them all these questions. Because we are only gonna get the information from our friend. And what if it's not the full picture? Cause what if they don't even know the full picture yet? Cause they've only been on a few dates.

John [00:20:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:42]: So I agree with you that being like, is this a good person? Is this not a good person? Is hard. Unless the person, again, is doing really messed up things or abusing somebody or just not treating the person really well, then that's different. But it's really hard to be like, yes, this is a good person or not. I think that a better way that works for a lot more people is not having their friends vet the person, but meeting a partner through a friend group. Because that way the friends already know each other and then you know the person. And so it's like, you don't have to explicitly say, like, I vouch for this person.

John [00:21:27]: Yeah, but they might have a secret crush on the person. Like if it's in a friend group or they have some kind of relationship because it's a. Let me give you a better one.

Nicole [00:21:35]: Okay?

John [00:21:36]: Instead of having your friends vet. Right. Introduce your person you're dating to your friends and observe. Observe the interactions yourself.

Nicole [00:21:49]: But what if you can't?

John [00:21:51]: Then, no, that's what I'm saying. You want to see, how does this person that you're dating interact with your friends? Is he flirting with your friends? Is he combative with your friends? Is he dismissive? You're learning a lot more about the person by seeing how they interact with your friends rather than your friend's opinion of the person.

Nicole [00:22:12]: That's true, but what if some of your friends don't live nearby? That's where they're friends. Huh?

John [00:22:17]: Then why does it matter what their opinion is? That's what I'm saying. It's like it's better to not take their opinion.

Nicole [00:22:23]: I mean, I agree. At the end of the day, your opinion on the person is the only one that matters. But I also think that, I don't know, from a girl perspective, I don't think it's horrible unless you're just believing whatever Your friend says, okay, let me

John [00:22:41]: give you one other reason. So in software development, we have this thing, this thing called scrum, right? Okay. This is like a way of running software development projects, okay? And one of the things that in the.

Nicole [00:22:52]: Why is it called scrum?

John [00:22:54]: It comes from rugby. They have like a scrum meeting where they huddle together. It's called a scrum. So one of the things is you have. And I'm going to butcher this badly because it's been a long time, but there has to be. So there's different roles in the scrum, right? And you've got essentially a product owner who owns the product. You've got a scrum master who oversees the thing, and then you've got the developers or testers who are doing the work, and you've got the stakeholders in the project. And so the whole idea is that the product owner who owns the product is one of the stakeholders, so they actually are involved in the project. And the reason for this, the analogy that they use, is that, okay, so when you're making breakfast, right, and maybe I could just use this analogy by itself. It probably doesn't have to be really disgruntled, but, okay, when you're making breakfast, right, you've got the chicken that lays the eggs, right? You got the pig. That is the bacon. Is the bacon, right? And so who do you trust, right? Because who has their ass on the line? The pig. The pig has contributed more than the chicken. The chicken has no stake. It just laid the eggs. The pig has his ass on the line because the pig actually contributes the bait. You get what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:24:28]: Literally his ass.

John [00:24:29]: It's literally his ass, right?

Nicole [00:24:30]: Yes.

John [00:24:30]: So I got a very long way of getting there. But basically, what I'm trying to say, because it's been a while since I've.

Nicole [00:24:39]: Is your ass is on the line, so your opinion's the only one that matters.

John [00:24:42]: Exactly. So they're just chickens. Your friends are just chickens. They're just peck, peck, peck, whatever. They have no stake in this. They don't get to suffer the consequences or the benefits they have. So their opinion. So the only opinions that I care about is people who have their ass on the line. So if I'm doing business advice, right, if someone's giving me business advice, they can fuck off. Because unless they're an investor in the business or they're actually in the business, their opinion means fuck all to me. I don't care what their opinion is, because they have no stake in it. So if I fail or don't fail, it doesn't matter to them because they didn't lose any money. They don't gain any money. But if they put money in it, now I'm listening to them. And so with relationships, that's how I look at it.

Nicole [00:25:32]: Unless you become a love triangle, then their opinion matters.

John [00:25:35]: If they have some kind of stake in it, then their opinion, because they

Nicole [00:25:39]: can give you whatever. Like their stake in it is you, their friend, who they really care about.

John [00:25:44]: Yeah. But in reality, they don't really suffer the consequences. If you break up with this person, get your heart broken, whatever they're there for you, get molested, whatever, it's not there.

Nicole [00:25:53]: Why are you going there?

John [00:25:55]: I'm saying, like, if you're dating a creepo or something like that and you get right.

Nicole [00:25:58]: Your friends are trying to keep you

John [00:25:59]: from dating a creepo.

Nicole [00:26:01]: They're trying to keep you from dating a creepy yo.

John [00:26:02]: But they don't have no stake in it. They might give you bad advice and say, oh, this guy looks good when he doesn't look good. Because they haven't had to think about it to the depth. Because there's no stake for them. There's no consequences or benefit for them. And so you should never listen to people who have no stake in the outcome of a situation.

Nicole [00:26:21]: I hear what you're saying. I still stand by mine because I think you can hear what your friends have to say.

John [00:26:27]: Sure.

Nicole [00:26:28]: And then still make your own decision.

John [00:26:30]: I agree with that for sure.

Nicole [00:26:33]: So I don't see the harm in whatever my friend has to say. Again, like you said, now if I'm like, you and I are together officially for a long time, and they're like, I don't think that's the person for you. That's a. You know what I mean? I'm not saying that that's not the case, but if I'm dating people and my friend's like, I don't know, I have a weird feeling about that guy. If I want to go on a date with him still, I'm going to. But also at the same time, I might be like, okay, well, let me keep an eye out and see what's going on. I am interested in this guy, but I am maybe going to be a little bit. Pay a little bit closer attention. I don't think that's a bad thing.

John [00:27:08]: It could influence you, but in a bad way.

Nicole [00:27:10]: It could. But at the same time, again, I know what I want. Having, like, been in the position that I was in when I was dating, I Was confident in my decisions right now. If you're somebody that's just gonna go by whatever your friends have to say, then, yeah, it's better to not ask them or not get involved.

John [00:27:28]: Yeah. I mean, look, I would ask or not even ask, but just.

Nicole [00:27:33]: You would. You asked your friend who you should go out with.

John [00:27:37]: That was. Okay. I asked as a, like, as a. In fact, that's a good example, right. I sent four pictures of girls, right. Of which you were clearly the hottest. Right? And it was sort of like a joke, like, oh, which one of these four should I pick? Where? I'm like, oh, of course he's going to pick the hottest one. And then he's like, no, he doesn't. He picks a blonde girl. Right? And so that's a perfect example of why it's a bad idea.

Nicole [00:28:05]: But you didn't listen to him. You knew you weren't gonna listen to him.

John [00:28:07]: Of course I'm not gonna.

Nicole [00:28:07]: You knew who you were gonna pick. I'm me. You still chose to ask him, though. Cause he's your friend.

John [00:28:12]: No, no, I didn't ask him because he's my friend. I asked him as.

Nicole [00:28:15]: To rub it in his face.

John [00:28:16]: Yes, exactly. Exactly. To rub it in his face. Like, look at how hot this girl is. Right. However, that just kind of proves the point is because I would entertain just like, okay, if I watched a movie already and ask someone, did you watch the movie? And like, oh, what did you think of it? Sure, I already watched the movie. I already got my opinion of the movie. I'm just curious what you thought of it. For curiosity's sake. I don't give a fuck all about what your actual opinion of it is. It doesn't influence my opinion of it at all. Right. If I haven't watched the movie, that's where it's dangerous. Okay? Now, the thing is, like, if I ask some friends, I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm dating this girl. What do you think? Or I say something about the girl. Like, hearing their opinion of it is literally just like comments on the Internet. It's just hearing their. It has no bias, no basis for influencing me at all. I mean, obviously it will influence. But what I'm saying is that I take no regard to it at all. It's just like. It's just a commentary. It's not advice. Right. That's how I would view it. It's like, yeah, just out of curiosity, what does this person think? Just like you would ask them, what is your favorite pizza topping? It was like, oh, well, I like pepperoni. Oh, shit. I guess I better like pepperoni. Then. I was like, this is not pepperoni pizza. So I don't know what to do anymore. Like, you see what I'm saying? It's like you would ask someone just

Nicole [00:29:36]: out of curiosity for yourself. They would ask you.

John [00:29:38]: Someone out of curiosity, but not out of anything else is what I would say.

Nicole [00:29:41]: But also, if your friend knew you and you sent those pictures, then they probably would have been like, oh, you should go for this girl. You know what I mean? That's like, some of my friends, I know who they dated, so if they sent me pictures, I'd be like, well, this guy looks like someone you've dated before. If you want to go for the same sort of people because you're attracted to that, or try any of the other ones for something different, that sounds

John [00:30:06]: like completely useless advice.

Nicole [00:30:11]: But it's helping them make a decision.

John [00:30:13]: Captain Obvious comes in and saves the day.

Nicole [00:30:15]: Helping them make a decision.

John [00:30:16]: It doesn't really. It's just Captain Obvious.

Nicole [00:30:18]: It helps them make their own decision.

John [00:30:20]: Uh, I mean, I don't know. Like, I feel like it. It's. It's like.

Nicole [00:30:25]: I think it's different for guys, though. Guys aren't doing this stuff. Like.

John [00:30:28]: But women like women. Women, like, screw themselves over because. Especially because women also are more in general. Okay, I'm making a generalization about women, that they're more catty and competitive within their own. Like, okay, dude is like, okay, let me just give you the club scene, right? And you'll understand what I'm saying. Going to the club, right? Picking up a girl, right? I'm with my friend. Guy friends, right? It's like, let's say that we're roommates.

Nicole [00:30:59]: The guy.

John [00:31:01]: The guy. The guys. Like, a couple guys. We're roommates, right? I pick up a girl, I'm like, I'm, like, gonna bring her back to my place.

Nicole [00:31:12]: He's gonna a monk you.

John [00:31:14]: No, the other guys are like, dude, we'll go sleep in the car. Like, they're like, yes, they are. Yes, they are. I swear. Ask Rodrigo. No, other dudes are like, yeah, we'll sleep in the car, dude. Like, yeah, yeah. Like, we'll get out of your way. Like, we'll sleep in the car. Like, get the girl, right? Girl talking to a guy with her girlfriends. They're doing everything. Cockblock. They're, like, jealous because she's got a girl, she's got a guy, and the guy's interested in them, not interested in them. Like, oh, they're like, oh, but you're supposed to be with us. Don't spend all this time with this guy. The guys are like, everything to support this guy and his mission to go get laid tonight. The girls are everything to prevent the girl from breaking with the pack and getting the guy.

Nicole [00:32:01]: You want to know why?

John [00:32:02]: For safety, whatever. But regardless. Also because of jealousy. Also because of all these things that are going on.

Nicole [00:32:09]: You can't trust probably 10%. What you're saying, jealousy, 10%. Because I have been left by my group of girlfriends all by myself, pissed at them cause they left with some random guy and left me all by myself with no way to get home. Like when we all plan to go together and all leave together. I get that it's not always about a jealousy thing.

John [00:32:34]: It's not always. It's not always.

Nicole [00:32:35]: And then I've also probably been the asshole girl too, to be like, I'm gonna go with this person. You know what I mean? Like, as a woman, it's not as easy. As a guy. Yeah. You could be like, let's go. Because you don't have to worry about dying. Also, your friends are trying to figure out if this guy who's trying to get you back to his hotel is gonna murder you.

John [00:32:51]: I get there's.

Nicole [00:32:51]: Because you barely know him and they barely know him.

John [00:32:54]: And I get that. But there's also the jealousy, the rivalry, the women breaking the pact. What I'm saying is that in general, women are more like, have secret motives. Secret motives. Guys don't have as much secret motive. I'm not saying that you can't ever. But what I'm saying is that you can't really trust that there's not some kind of other.

Nicole [00:33:21]: I think your example is a poor example because there's a lot. It's a poor example involved in that. And there's a lot at risk for a going out club situation and letting your friend leave with a random man.

John [00:33:34]: Sure.

Nicole [00:33:34]: Like, it's a lot different. And it's a lot different for the girl that's leaving with a stranger. And it's a lot different for the friends that let her leave with a stranger. And then they feel like that's on them because they let her friend do that.

John [00:33:46]: You're right.

Nicole [00:33:47]: That's not a good example.

John [00:33:48]: Okay, it's not a good example. Fair. I'll give you that. True or false. Girls are more likely to sabotage each other.

Nicole [00:34:01]: I feel like in my almost 35 years as a woman, I only felt like one person I knew Was like that.

John [00:34:11]: That you knew.

Nicole [00:34:12]: That I knew.

John [00:34:13]: But in general.

Nicole [00:34:15]: But see, I'm thinking of my experience as one person, and then I'm thinking about the stories that you've told where guys will amog you. So, like, how is that not the same?

John [00:34:25]: Because they're not your bros. Random. Okay, here's the thing. Men are tribal, okay? If you have my. If I have my bros, right? We'll do anything for each other, okay? But some random dude, he's the enemy. We will compete against that guy. Destroy that guy. He's outside of the group. He is the enemy. Right? He is completely the enemy just by

Nicole [00:34:50]: being sometimes take other bros. Sure.

John [00:34:52]: You take it. No, no, no. I mean, that's. You're definitely out of the bro. Like, that's completely.

Nicole [00:34:58]: You're done.

John [00:34:59]: You're a bro. You're out of the tribe. You're examining the kado from the tribe for sure. If you do that shit, like, that's not cool.

Nicole [00:35:05]: Girl code.

John [00:35:05]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:35:06]: Well, girls have girl code too. So she gets kicked out if she steals your man.

John [00:35:11]: Yeah, but it's more like, okay, think about all of the friendships that you've had and lost and since the time that I've known you and how sort of like, how sort of catty kind of shit caused those dissolutions, right? How many friendships have you seen me lose since we've known each other? Zero. Okay. How many?

Nicole [00:35:38]: I've helped you gain friendships. Yeah, you help me.

John [00:35:40]: Okay. How many? Because. But women definitely, like, there's.

Nicole [00:35:43]: But we have a lot of friendships.

John [00:35:44]: There's a more inner competition. Okay? So men, when they're together in a group, if men are in my tribe, we are collaborative, right? Like, we are going to help each other, right? To the outside men. Fuck those guys. Those guys. We're gonna fuck those guys over. Fuck those guys. Right? Don't even care. Okay? To women, it's the opposite. Not exact opposite, but to women in their group, super competitive within the group, super competitive. That's where the cattiness. That's where the competition comes from within the group, right? And that's why, like, I don't like that. But you're not like that. But women in general are like that. They're super competitive within the.

Nicole [00:36:23]: No, I said I don't like that.

John [00:36:25]: I know you don't.

Nicole [00:36:26]: I try not to be a part of that, but it happens. And I have lost people that want me to be a part of it, but I don't want to.

John [00:36:31]: But you see it happen, right? And that's why? Like, women should not be trusting their friends because you're in a competitive group where it's like, if you're hot, then your friends can't be hot. Like, that's how they're. You know what I'm saying? It's like. Like your win is their loss. Right. That's more how women in groups think.

Nicole [00:36:47]: That's insecure women.

John [00:36:49]: But in general, women in groups think more like that and men don't. And so it's dangerous. So, like, if I was a woman, I'm not a woman. If I was a woman, I wouldn't tell my friend group shit about guy I was dating. I would not at all tell them.

Nicole [00:37:07]: Then what are you supposed to do? Just show up with a husband?

John [00:37:09]: Yes. Do not give them any kind of intel. It's just like, what's the. Oh, it's just like Love is Blind when those idiots start telling everyone about who they're dating. If I was on Love is Blind, I wouldn't tell anybody shit. I wouldn't tell them anything about them.

Nicole [00:37:24]: But the guys do it too.

John [00:37:25]: Yeah, they're idiots too, but I wouldn't because they're not a tribe. Those are competitive guys that are competing with you because you're not a tribe. I wouldn't tell anybody shit because I don't want anybody fucking with my shit. And sustain. That's how I would do it as a woman. I wouldn't tell anybody shit. Cause you don't know. Is this girl gonna DM your guy?

Nicole [00:37:44]: You get rid of the girl. You wanna know if you have a girl like that in your circle so you can get rid of her.

John [00:37:49]: Yeah, but you might not know until she sabotaged your relationship.

Nicole [00:37:52]: Well, then that's not your man. If she could steal your man, that's not your man.

John [00:37:55]: But she might still be in there, you know what I mean? Causing chaos.

Nicole [00:37:58]: Yeah. Then your friends should show you, be

John [00:38:00]: like, are spreading rumors about you and some shit like that.

Nicole [00:38:05]: Because I wanna know that so I can kick him out. I wanna.

John [00:38:08]: Like, it could be just someone you're going on a couple dates with yet at this point. Like, they're not your man yet, so it's not even.

Nicole [00:38:13]: But even then, if you steal my man, then he was never my man.

John [00:38:17]: Yeah, I just think it's like, unless someone is a pig, they got their ass on the line, they're providing the bacon for the breakfast, they ain't got no business.

Nicole [00:38:28]: Look, I've already said my thing. The thing is, I hear what you're saying, but I Would want to know rather than not know. I'd rather get rid of a friend like that than keep them around and they're low key like that for who knows how long. Get out of here. I get springing the trap, but I still believe. And how I operated was. I talked to my friends, sure. And I made my own decisions.

John [00:38:53]: Yeah, but did it ever actually benefit you see? Yeah, not ultimately. In the end, it didn't benefit you. The only advice that you got was what turned out to be incorrect advice, which was what was me. Right. But you didn't marry any of those other guys.

Nicole [00:39:12]: They didn't tell me that they were my husband. They're not telling me, pick this guy or don't pick this guy. But I'm just saying they're just giving me their opinion.

John [00:39:18]: Yeah. So their opinion ended up being worth jack Nothing Right. At the end of the day. But it could have hurt. It could have hurt you.

Nicole [00:39:27]: Here's the thing that you don't understand.

John [00:39:28]: It couldn't help you, but it could have hurt you.

Nicole [00:39:30]: The thing is that you don't understand is that this is just what women talk about.

John [00:39:35]: I got it.

Nicole [00:39:35]: I did not go there and be like, what do you think of this guy? I was talking about my experience, showed the video, and then she gave her opinion. It was not, should I be with this guy? Should I not be with this guy?

John [00:39:49]: I got it.

Nicole [00:39:50]: I'm not asking anybody that's a question. And I agree. You shouldn't ask that. You shouldn't ask your friend, should I be with this person or not? But I don't see anything wrong with talking about your experience. Because also, like, what if I was talking to somebody and they were like, oh, like, I heard that that guy's married? I would have appreciated that information because you weren't giving it to me. But you know what I mean? Like, this is why women talk. Because you don't know what's gonna come out.

John [00:40:17]: Yeah, but not vet. Vetting is what we talked about on the. You know what I mean? Like, you can talk about it, but disregard the opinions. If they bring you talk about it. If they bring you. If they bring you facts. If they're like, okay, this guy is married, or like, this guy messaged me on Facebook or whatever, that's a fact. That's not an opinion.

Nicole [00:40:35]: Right.

John [00:40:36]: But when I say I'm all for facts, you give me a fact. If I talk to a guy friend of mine and he's like, yeah, I subscribe to her onlyfans, I'll be Oh, thank you for giving me that fact.

Nicole [00:40:45]: Right, exactly that fact.

John [00:40:46]: I will use that fact.

Nicole [00:40:48]: But see, this is what I'm saying is that like, I wouldn't call that vetting. You wouldn't call that vetting, but that's what women do and I don't see anything wrong with that.

John [00:40:56]: I would call that the discovery process,

Nicole [00:40:59]: whatever you want to call it. I already told you that vetting being like yes or no to somebody with your friends picking for you is not a good thing. But talking about it and hearing their opinion, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But you have to stand on that. You know what you want and you are going to make the decision. Decisionman. The decision ultimately is going to be yours.

John [00:41:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:26]: So like, you're not just gonna follow what your friend says or what they think about this guy. You know the guy better than anybody, you're going on the dates with him.

John [00:41:35]: Right, right.

Nicole [00:41:37]: So vetting as in should you be with this person or not? No, but talking to your friends, having open dialogue, hearing their opinion, I don't see anything wrong with that personally. But you have to know that you're not whether you're gonna be influenced because you just wanna be like, oh, I want this friend's approval or whatever.

John [00:41:58]: You will be influenced. How much you'll be influenced, it depends on how you come into it.

Nicole [00:42:05]: That's fine. And I think it's different as a woman. You want all perspectives because it's more dangerous for you as a woman to date. It's not the same for guys. It's totally what guys worry about, dating. Is this girl gonna like me or not for sure, or is she gonna bang me or not? What girls worry about with dating is like, is he a low key serial killer? Is he acting really nice but then he's gonna be an asshole? Is he like, have a secret life that I don't know about? Like, there's so much more. So you do wanna know the opinion,

John [00:42:35]: but which is more likely a false flag of this guy is now marked as a serial killer or a true flag.

Nicole [00:42:41]: Look, if your friend's like, you don't really know this guy, you should be careful. Okay, that's good advice.

John [00:42:46]: That's good advice.

Nicole [00:42:47]: That's not gonna say he's a serial killer.

John [00:42:49]: That's not vetting though.

Nicole [00:42:50]: But that's what she's gonna say.

John [00:42:51]: That's good advice. That's not vetting. That's just advice for you. That's not advice about the guy, it's advice for you, right?

Nicole [00:42:57]: It's advice. Cause you don't know the guy.

John [00:42:58]: Advice for you is fine. Like, if you're like, oh, I'm dating this person. That's how most women. I'm struggling with this issue. Advice for you. Sure, that's fine.

Nicole [00:43:06]: That's what most women say. I think you're still upset about the influencers.

John [00:43:11]: We're talking about the vetting thing, though. But we're talking about vetting. That's what I'm saying. It's like. Because what do we say that the title was like, friend fluence. Yeah, Friend fluence. Okay. So, yeah. So, yeah. So should you let your friends influence or vet your relationship?

Nicole [00:43:24]: Right. It's all encompassing. We already talked about that. Vetting, deciding for you. No, but, like, hearing your friends out, I don't see a problem. You do.

John [00:43:38]: But just like, I don't. Like, just like, okay, I will hear what your favorite pizza topping is. Like, I will hear it. Sure. But it's like, it's as relevant to me as what, their favorite pizza.

Nicole [00:43:50]: Right. No one's saying you have to follow the friendfluence.

John [00:43:54]: Yeah, well, if it's.

Nicole [00:43:55]: But you can talk to your friends about it.

John [00:43:58]: You can talk to your friend. Yeah. You can share information with them, but you have to be careful what information you share with them.

Nicole [00:44:03]: Oh, of course. Like you said, you can't be, like, venting all these negative things and then expect your friends to be like, yeah, keep going out with him.

John [00:44:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:13]: Like, if you have valid concerns or if you're like, you know, he's not showing up till 3am every night.

John [00:44:22]: Sure. But yeah. Do you really need a friend to tell you that?

Nicole [00:44:25]: Some people do, I guess.

John [00:44:26]: Okay, then you do. Then in that case, that's the idiot versus the coach type of situation.

Nicole [00:44:31]: Which I guess, like you said, if you don't feel very confident in your dating abilities, then maybe you should find a friend. I think you should find a friend that's in a relationship.

John [00:44:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:40]: Because that's safer. I mean, when, in my defense, my friend that told me the thing about you, she was in a relationship. She wasn't trying to get me to be single.

John [00:44:48]: Yeah. Which is fine. But it's like, Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't really care about that so much. But as I'm thinking about now, it's like, okay, it could have influenced you negatively.

Nicole [00:45:00]: Yeah. But you kept things from me that also could have definitely influenced me negatively.

John [00:45:05]: For sure.

Nicole [00:45:06]: That's not good either.

John [00:45:08]: No. But you can't Be upset with my

Nicole [00:45:10]: friend with trying to protect me.

John [00:45:12]: I'm not upset with your friend. I'm not upset with your friend. I'm just saying from a judgment perspective, getting that advice could have harmed you. It could have been harmful. But not. Could have been helpful.

Nicole [00:45:25]: Could have been helpful as well.

John [00:45:28]: Facts, facts. So facts are helpful.

Nicole [00:45:32]: I think you're just upset.

John [00:45:33]: I'm not upset.

Nicole [00:45:34]: Well, no, I think you're upset because you had also things that you weren't telling me. So you can't really be upset with her decision when you had other things that were going on.

John [00:45:47]: You know what I mean? I'm not upset with their decision. It's just a matter of, like, should you. Should a person take advice from other people about. Yeah. At all? Like, and even if you're just. I think you should hear people out.

Nicole [00:46:00]: But. But ultimately it has to be your decision. So I agree with that. If you don't want anybody clouding your judgment, then don't talk about it. But I think just as women, we are gonna talk about it. So the best advice for women mostly is to make sure that you're making your own decision. And don't take every single person's opinion. Like, it's a fact. They know everything about your relationship. Ultimately you do. But also if your friends are like, hey, this is kind of alarming about something that maybe you're not seeing. Cause maybe you grew up in abusive or toxic environment or you're used to toxic relationships, I think that you should hear them out on those things. Ultimately, it's still gonna be your decision and your friends should support you no matter what. But if it's something like that, you should at least, like, give it some thought, in my opinion.

John [00:47:02]: Yeah, I guess I could see that part of it.

Nicole [00:47:07]: But you sound like. Yeah, you sound like there's a but.

John [00:47:10]: It's. I mean, just like, yeah, in an extreme case, perhaps, but they're not there. They don't know the relationship. They don't know the history. They don't know the, like, you know, everything.

Nicole [00:47:22]: And that's true.

John [00:47:23]: It depends if you're, like, talking about how, like, vetting or like, even in the relationship, like, advice.

Nicole [00:47:28]: That's true. But here's the thing with that, is that if your friends are pointing out, like, hey, this is looking a little toxic or whatever, and they don't know the full picture, imagine what could be happening in the full picture.

John [00:47:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:42]: You know what I mean?

John [00:47:43]: But it can also sound like toxic the way you're describing it versus what the actual Reality is. Right.

Nicole [00:47:51]: It's like, then I guess you would need to be like, look like, you know, this is coming across this way. I don't know if you're telling it a certain way or if this is what's actually happening, but this is how it's coming across.

John [00:48:02]: I guess that's maybe the other piece of it is. Again, why I'm so against it is the way that you're going to convey anything about a person is going to be biased also. So you're conveying something in a biased way to people who are going to receive it in a biased way and then give you biased advice. So by the time the message has gone back and forth, it's a worthless message almost 100% of the time. So share it. Because it's fun to gossip and talk about things and share what's going on in your life, but for no other reason than that is my. I'm sticking to that.

Nicole [00:48:37]: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've already said how I feel.

John [00:48:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:42]: But I agree it can get messy. But I think you have to have your own opinion.

John [00:48:47]: Let me see if there's any things we didn't cover that was like, the core question is, are your friends protecting you from a bad relationship or sabotaging your ability to love someone?

Nicole [00:48:57]: I think for the most part, most friends are just trying to protect you, not trying to sabotage. Majority, majority.

John [00:49:03]: But are single friends usually the worst people to ask for relationship advice? This is kind of learned to like relationship advice things, but, yeah, dating advice.

Nicole [00:49:13]: Yeah. Ask your single friends. They're going on dates. Relationship. I mean, like. And even you can ask your relationship friends for dating advice since they did date.

John [00:49:21]: But relationship advice is fine if it's.

Nicole [00:49:25]: If they've been in one or just.

John [00:49:27]: I mean, just in general giving relationship advice. I'm not against that. I'm against like. But it's like more like, here's what you can do. Like, you should have more standards. You should set more boundaries versus, but here's my thought. Versus against the person.

Nicole [00:49:42]: When I was single, I would have loved to have a couple like you and I that I knew that I could ask relationship advice from.

John [00:49:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:51]: That's a good question. I would have preferred.

John [00:49:52]: That's a good thing. Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:54]: But I didn't have any relationship that I really thought was, like, really one I idolized.

John [00:50:01]: Yeah. If your whole friend group hates your partner, is that a warning sign or peer pressure?

Nicole [00:50:08]: If your whole friend group hates the person.

John [00:50:10]: Yeah. Hates your partner, is that a warning sign or peer Pressure. See, this is where.

Nicole [00:50:14]: See, they might hate your partner because you talk so much crap about your

John [00:50:17]: partner or because they're jealous or because your partner likes Pokemon.

Nicole [00:50:22]: Says the whole group. The whole group's not gonna be jealous.

John [00:50:24]: Yeah. Okay. Or your partner is obnoxious, hates Pokemon. Yeah. Or whatever. Likes Pokemon or whatever. And they're like, this guy's a geek or whatever. But you like that. So you know what I'm saying? It's like, okay, if your whole. I'll just rephrase this.

Nicole [00:50:39]: Yeah, but you should.

John [00:50:40]: If your whole friend group hates anchovies on pizza and you like anchovies on pizza, is that a warning sign or is that. You see what I'm saying? It's like. Yeah, so that's what I'm saying is like, it's irrelevant.

Nicole [00:50:50]: Unless they're like, he is coming home at 3am every night. What are you doing, girl? Like, you need to talk to him.

John [00:50:56]: Yeah, that's more fact type of situation. But is venting about your partner to your friends a form of betrayal? Yes. 100%.

Nicole [00:51:05]: It doesn't. I mean, like, look, you can talk about things you're going through if you want, but again, it's a slippery slope. Cause really, you should be talking to your partner about the things. But if you bad mouth your partner to your friends, they're gonna get bad.

John [00:51:21]: A bad taste, and it's betrayal.

Nicole [00:51:24]: Right.

John [00:51:24]: Right. Yeah. Do jealous friends sabotage relationships because they don't want to lose access to you? Jealousy that way?

Nicole [00:51:35]: I mean, I think that, like, your friends, if you're in a good relationship, they're happy for you.

John [00:51:41]: Yeah. But it's sometimes hard to know. Sometimes it's a subconscious motive. Should your partner's opinion matter more than your best friend's?

Nicole [00:51:53]: Should your partner's opinion matter more than your best friend's? I mean, like, they're the person you're starting your life with.

John [00:52:00]: Once you trash your partner to your friends, can they ever see them fairly again? No.

Nicole [00:52:06]: Yeah, it's very hard. They're not connected to your partner the same way. They can't just, like, go back to having an unbiased opinion.

John [00:52:14]: Yeah. Are people outsourcing courage when they say, everyone thinks I should leave you? Yes.

Nicole [00:52:20]: Wait, what?

John [00:52:21]: Are people outsourcing courage when they say, everyone thinks I should leave you?

Nicole [00:52:28]: Yeah.

John [00:52:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:30]: I think they're also just trying to not have the decision be put all on them by being like, see, everybody told me to leave you.

John [00:52:37]: And then also, like, one of the points is, like, a dangerous friend always validates. You.

Nicole [00:52:43]: I don't like those type of friends. Yeah, some people want those type of friends. Yeah. If your friend can't be like, hey, what are you doing? Or, like, disagree with you, that's not really a good friend. If you only want someone that just agrees with you, go get AI Companion. If that's what you want. It should just be validated.

John [00:52:59]: Every time you vent.

Nicole [00:53:00]: Or a therapist.

John [00:53:01]: Every time you vent, you're prosecuting your partner in a court they know, they don't know exists.

Nicole [00:53:06]: Every time you what?

John [00:53:07]: Vent, you're prosecuting your partner in a court they don't know exists.

Nicole [00:53:11]: Oh, that's a good quote.

John [00:53:13]: That's a good one. Yeah, but.

Nicole [00:53:15]: Well, I think we hashed it out.

John [00:53:19]: Yeah, I think so. I think that's. It's. It's.

Nicole [00:53:25]: Yeah, it is a slippery slope.

John [00:53:27]: Yeah. My advice is don't tell people I know about your business. Keep your business to yourself.

Nicole [00:53:34]: I think you should be able to talk, but you have to know the implications. And you have to have your own opinion. And you have to follow your heart, not anyone else's. It's your life.

John [00:53:44]: All right. Anything else you got? No, that's it. All right, let's wrap it up then. Next.

Nicole [00:53:56]: That's why I'm turned this way.

John [00:53:58]: If you have a question for us, you can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com and if you want to check out the website, betterthanperfectpod.com Leave us a review.

Nicole [00:54:09]: 5 stars.

John [00:54:10]: Ask your friends. Ask your friends about the podcast. See what they say. We'll see you next time.

Nicole [00:54:16]: Bye.

John [00:00:00]: Here's my business idea. Okay? I'm gonna be the first.

Nicole [00:00:03]: You have enough business ideas?

John [00:00:05]: All right? AI Sex Robot Cleaning service.

Nicole [00:00:08]: No.

John [00:00:09]: Someone has to do it.

Nicole [00:00:10]: No. Build their own robot. Absolutely.

John [00:00:13]: People will pay good money.

Nicole [00:00:14]: No. You want to do that?

John [00:00:16]: No, no, I'm hired.

Nicole [00:00:17]: You want to be like, guess what? I'm not doing it myself.

John [00:00:19]: I'm gonna hire.

Nicole [00:00:20]: Yeah, you're gonna own the business.

John [00:00:21]: I'm gonna hire high school kids to do it.

Nicole [00:00:23]: John, that's messed up. If you're doing all that, you got your AI robot, you clean it up. No, this is enab. No, no, no, no.

John [00:00:33]: Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws we complete each other Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:57]: I was wondering if you were going to get it or not. You did Good.

John [00:01:00]: Yeah. So we're going to be talking about AI girlfriends today, which we kind of

Nicole [00:01:06]: have talked about before, a little bit

John [00:01:08]: about how AI, but I think it's more. I mean, things have changed. AI world changes. Every six months is, like, 10 years, basically, which is crazy.

Nicole [00:01:17]: But, yeah, I guess the last time we talked about it, there were a few instances, mostly with teenagers, that we're having, like, relationships with AI. But, I mean, I don't know to what extent people are using it for now, but I know, like you said, like, it gets better and better, and I don't like the idea of, like, you can put someone's picture in there and, like, make pictures of other people. I think that's weird.

John [00:01:45]: You mean of, like. You mean. Do you mean having your, like, your AI girlfriend have a picture, or do you mean, like, take a picture of someone and then make new pictures of them or nude pictures of them?

Nicole [00:01:58]: I guess both. I don't like either of those. Because, let's be real, like, if someone has an AI girlfriend or boyfriend, they're probably using a reference photo of a real person or.

John [00:02:11]: Yeah. Or.

Nicole [00:02:11]: And then they can, like, use that photo and then, like, make photos of themselves and then, like, make nude photos or whatever. Like, I don't like the idea of that.

John [00:02:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:26]: Personally.

John [00:02:27]: Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Nicole [00:02:30]: But I don't. I don't know what extent, like, are there apps that are, like, specifically, like, geared towards dating, like, with AI that you know of?

John [00:02:41]: Yeah, I mean, I don't, like. I don't.

Nicole [00:02:44]: I know you don't partake in the.

John [00:02:47]: I Mean, you know, just occasionally. And I've got a little like, I've got a harem, an AI harem of AI girlfriends.

Nicole [00:02:55]: You know that this will be the last better than perfect podcast episode. But you're online more than me and like, you know, guy's stuff more than me.

John [00:03:07]: I mean, definitely people are using like AI. It's not just girlfriend, but like AI companion. Right. So there's a lot of apps out there for AI companions, which can be girlfriend, which can be from the level of like friend, whatever, all the way up to like very sexually explicit level of stuff. Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:24]: Even like I thought that like certain ones block that stuff.

John [00:03:29]: Yeah. But then there's also ones that do not block that stuff. Right. Because like, if you're talking about like, no, not. I mean, Grok is a little, has like a little sexy voice type of anime thing that you can have as your. You're like assistant. But that's, that's a far different thing. I'm talking about like the unfettered type of stuff that's out there.

Nicole [00:03:51]: But that's what I'm saying. I thought that most like, well known AI.

John [00:03:55]: Well, what would you call them? Right, yeah, the, the, the frontier AI models like OpenAI and Anthropic and.

Nicole [00:04:02]: Yeah. Don't they have like restrictions on that?

John [00:04:04]: Yeah, they have restrictions on that.

Nicole [00:04:06]: But dark web AI?

John [00:04:08]: Well, yeah, because within AI, there's the main companies that are doing AI like Anthropic and OpenAI and Space AI.

Nicole [00:04:20]: Space AI. That's what it's called.

John [00:04:21]: It's XAI is what it's called, actually. Yeah. And then some of the, I mean, Google Gemini. Right. But then there's also Chinese AI models like Deep Seq and Kimi and those are open weighted open source models. So anyone can take that model and if they have the hardware, they can run that AI and then they can unrestrict it to do whatever you want it to do.

Nicole [00:04:54]: How do they unrestrict it? We have an AI connoisseur expert here, so we need to ask the questions.

John [00:05:03]: There's jailbreaks to unrestrict the AI because there's not a lot of guard in the Chinese models. There's some guard in there, but they're open source models. So you can go in there and mess with it. Right. And so there's.

Nicole [00:05:16]: I feel like I've heard of the Deep Seq one with like making images of people.

John [00:05:21]: Yeah, I mean that's definitely. Can be, can be done. Right. With those, like whatever kind of you can make nudes of people if you want to. That's messed up in a way. It is messed up, but it's also like, you just have to get used to. That's the reality. Right. Because it's not going backwards. Nothing goes backwards. That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's not going backwards.

Nicole [00:05:43]: I get that, but how are you supposed to just be okay with these fake nudes that people don't know if they're fake? I guess so, like, that's not. You're like, just deal with it. Like, but that's not even your naked body. And you're just supposed to, like, accept that. Like, here's naked.

John [00:06:02]: Let me give you the counter side of this, like, the positive. Let's look at the silver lining. Right? So if you do have real nudes out there and they did get leaked,

Nicole [00:06:11]: then you can say they're alien.

John [00:06:12]: Exactly. So no one will be able to tell the difference. So it's kind of like, you know, it's like, it balances out. So if you accidentally leaked your nudes now and you're like, oh, crap, I leaked my nudes, then now you can be like, oh, look, now I can just claim that's AI. And now everything's cool. And when people do the ransom thing, they're like, I have pictures of you from your wedding. Exactly. You could be like, yeah, yeah. I'm just gonna tell everyone it's AI. So go ahead, man. Whatever. Whatever you want to do.

Nicole [00:06:41]: I understand what you're saying. However, people don't normally leak their own nudes. Unless you're Kim Kardashian. No, not Pierce Hilton. I think you're thinking of Kim Kardashian.

John [00:06:55]: She also leaked a sex tape.

Nicole [00:06:57]: Oh, well, most people don't.

John [00:06:59]: That's how she got famous. That's the only thing.

Nicole [00:07:00]: No, that's Kim Kardashian.

John [00:07:01]: No, Paris Hilton got famous from leaking a sex table.

Nicole [00:07:04]: I thought Paris. No, she had a TV show when she was, like, a teenager.

John [00:07:08]: She got famous for.

Nicole [00:07:09]: She's famous because her dad owns Hilton restaurants, hotels.

John [00:07:15]: We're going to. We need AI here.

Nicole [00:07:18]: You're thinking of Kim Kardashian. No, I know that Kim Kardashian was Paris Hilton's assistant.

John [00:07:23]: I think you're just too young. How did Paris Hilton get famous? Was it from leaking a sex tape, or was there some other way?

Nicole [00:07:33]: Speaking of AI,

John [00:07:38]: Paris Hilton was already somewhat famous before her sex tape. Here's the timeline. Born into the Hilton family, she grew up. Okay. Socialite and media attention in late 1990s, 2002, she became a fixture in tabloids because of her nightlife, fashion, and celebrity friendships. Sex tape 2003, a sex tape she made with then boyfriend Rick Salomon. Sounds like Sauron. Salomon, several years earlier, was released without her approval shortly before her TV show premiered. Shortly before her TV showed, she was already famous.

Nicole [00:08:12]: Yeah, yeah, that's what it said.

John [00:08:13]: No one knew she was famous, but no one knew her name.

Nicole [00:08:16]: So I don't believe that it was

John [00:08:18]: until the sex tape. I never heard of her until the sex tape.

Nicole [00:08:20]: Wow. So that's very guy of you not hearing that.

John [00:08:24]: But it was 2003. So 2003, what were you doing?

Nicole [00:08:28]: I was 12.

John [00:08:28]: Yeah. So. Yeah. So you weren't any sex tapes. Was not.

Nicole [00:08:31]: No, But I still feel like I knew who Paris Hilton was at 12. Yeah.

John [00:08:36]: Okay.

Nicole [00:08:37]: I watched a lot of TV.

John [00:08:38]: Okay. Well. Yeah. But anyway, where are we going? I was saying that. So the whole thing of, like, the notion of privacy or anything is just you should dismiss that notion from your mind. Like everyone. You'll be just filmed wherever you're at, and people can generate nudes of you. So that. That's just life.

Nicole [00:08:59]: Not very reassuring. You have been the king lately of not very reassuring information on these episodes.

John [00:09:05]: It's a reality.

Nicole [00:09:07]: So anyway, first off, don't care if you have AI nudes out there.

John [00:09:11]: Yeah. But the AI girlfriend thing, to get back on the topic. Or AI companion thing. Yeah, I mean, it's actually. It's catching on. I think it's competing with dating apps now. Right. Because dating apps are very disappointing to most people now because they're kind of gamified. They're kind of like they're gamed in the sense that only the top players are winning there. And it's become something that. So compared to going on a dating app, facing rejection, dealing with all of the scams and all the stuff there, it's like, oh, you can just have an AI companion that can. Just does whatever you want and just is nice to you all the time and doesn't reject you. And you're getting that need of a sort of virtual need for intimacy.

Nicole [00:10:04]: I get that. That's attractive. But going back a little bit to the nudes thing and people using your photo.

John [00:10:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:12]: As a woman, that's extremely terrifying. Because as a woman, let's say some guy you talked to once, he's obsessed with you, he wants to be with you even though you've said hi to him and now he's in love with you. He gets a photo of you off of Facebook or something. He makes all these images. He turns his AI chatbot into a version of you. Does that seem like a very. Like, I get in one way or.

John [00:10:42]: Or here or this?

Nicole [00:10:43]: It could be, but at the same time, I think it could make him more crazy and then go full blown.

John [00:10:49]: Or. Or he listens to your podcast and then he's. And then on the podcast, there's a question of, like, what do your nipples look like? And then you describe it, and now he has it. And now he uses that to get the color and shape correct.

Nicole [00:11:06]: I'm not as worried about a nipple. I'm more concerned about dying. You know what I mean? I'm not saying, like, me specifically. I'm just saying as a woman.

John [00:11:16]: No, no, it's very.

Nicole [00:11:17]: Does this actually help women in this situation? Cause will he be fine with this, or. In my mind, I feel like it will make him so delusional that he might do drastic things in real life.

John [00:11:32]: I think most of the guys that are creating AI girlfriends are not creating AI girlfriends from women. I think they're creating anime women, which I'm fine with that cartoon and then making their.

Nicole [00:11:45]: I mean, it's weird to me, but I mean, like, not saying that it's weird, but I'm just saying that, like, I would prefer a cartoon over real people. Cause I think it's safer.

John [00:12:01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:12:02]: I mean, as long as it's not like an animal. That's where I was going with the weird thing. As long as it's not like, alien or some sort of thing. That's not even realist. I mean, the anime person is also not super realistic, but at least they are supposed to resemble a human being, but they are exaggerated in some ways.

John [00:12:19]: Yeah. I think that anything that is allowing sexually frustrated men to not be sexually frustrated is creating safety, not harm. In the sense that, like, that includes prostitution. It includes virtual.

Nicole [00:12:41]: But see, there's the thing.

John [00:12:43]: So it's not. Okay, so it's not good. Well, that's a different one. That one is different because that escalates.

Nicole [00:12:51]: Right, but can't the AI escalate?

John [00:12:54]: It's unproven.

Nicole [00:12:55]: You can tell it to do whatever.

John [00:12:57]: Yeah, but if it's pacified, if you're like, okay, I have my AI girlfriend and I'm good with my AI girlfriend, and you've got the porn for the visual, and then you've got the AI girlfriend for the emotional. And that's like. It's a low level of survival.

Nicole [00:13:15]: Saying the Corn is good, then it's not good.

John [00:13:19]: None of this is good, right? But it's like, okay, the biggest danger to any society is sexually frustrated men with no advancement in life, right? So if you look at take 9 11, right? All those guys on those planes, where did they come from? And I don't mean like what. I mean, it is geographical, but it's more like, what was their family? What was their life? What was the situation, the socioeconomic situation they were in? They were sexually frustrated, and they had no way to advance in any kind of social order or make money.

Nicole [00:13:57]: How do we know they were sexually frustrated?

John [00:14:00]: We know. We know from the research on those. Because that's how they recruit in these terrorist organizations, is they recruit from that pool. That's how you get people who are willing to, because they're more extreme to do things, to sacrifice their lives, right? Because they have nothing. Cause what they promised them is that their families are gonna be taken care of, and in the afterlife, they're gonna get so many virgins and all this stuff, because they have nothing on this planet to hope for. So what I'm saying is, and it's not a judgment of those people, it's just a judgment of. Just to say that the most dangerous thing in any society is a large number of sexually frustrated men who have no social economic advancement possible. Because what happens in that situation, Revolt, violence. That's where you get violence. Like, almost all of the upheavals happen in those situations. And so the best thing you can do as a society is pacify that segment of society, right? And so the pacification is alcohol, drugs, is porn, is AI Girlfriend. Now it's like, otherwise, what are all these guys gonna do? They're going to get their frustrations out somehow.

Nicole [00:15:18]: By harming others.

John [00:15:19]: By harming others. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:22]: But we also can't do better with these guys so that they don't act this way.

John [00:15:26]: No, that's what I'm saying. So that's where. With the stuff I was doing with coaching men, with bulldog mindset, hopefully with our podcast, I mean, we're not so much on this podcast focused on helping men specifically, but with my stuff with bulldog mindset and coaching and even doing the dating coaching and the pickup coaching that I was doing with guys, it was for that purpose. It's like, okay, don't watch porn. Don't have an AI girlfriend. Go out there, learn how to talk to women. Learn how to be successful with women. The more men that learn that skill and can have their needs met, that way, the less you have. But most men are not going to do that today in society. You do need something to pacify those men that are never going to rise to. They don't have the ambition to actually make some kind of good change in their life. Oh.

Nicole [00:16:19]: I mean, they're already talking about that. They're talking about like the sex robots. When that comes out, like the robots are the next thing.

John [00:16:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:25]: Which to be honest, if you go and watch the other AI episode, I'm not a fan of any of these things. Not really.

John [00:16:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:35]: Because it is different. Even with the AI companions, it is different talking to an actual human being. An AI is predictable. Humans are not as predictable. You can't. With an AI, everything's gonna tie up nicely with a bow. With humans, that doesn't always happen. You don't always get closure, you don't always get what you want. You know what I mean? That is the human experience. And with the companionship thing, again, that's where I'm kinda like, does this actually make things better? I do think in a way, like you said, it pacifies them, but what if the Internet's down or they get kicked out of something and now they're really pissed off? You know what I mean? I understand what you're saying. And it's not like I don't believe in that.

John [00:17:29]: It's not solving the problem.

Nicole [00:17:30]: But at the same time, I think just trying to put a, like AI bandage on everything, including this, is like, not actually helping.

John [00:17:42]: No, no. And it doesn't, it doesn't. It doesn't. Like, it's not a solution. It's a band aid. Right. That's what it is. And that's what. I don't claim anything other than that. I think the thing is though, like, when you look at. Because some people are like, well, what's the harm of having an AI companion or girlfriend? It's what you said is that. Well, the purpose of relationship is to grow. It's because the friction of the relationship causes you to grow beyond what you could grow on your own. Otherwise you would be better independent, but you're better together because you improve each other. That should be what you're going after with the relationship. Right. And so the thing is, when you have an AI girlfriend, for example, the girl always gets along with you and doesn't argue with you or you know what I'm saying, or disagree with what

Nicole [00:18:37]: you have to say.

John [00:18:38]: And so are you really. Is it really a relationship? Right. It feels like one, it looks like one, but you don't want a relationship where there's no conflict at all. You need to have that in order to grow as a person. And like you said, to go through the experience of having a disagreement and being upset and like, like, because those, those are the things that are valuable in a relationship. Like those are things that people think are negative and they avoid. And yeah, if you're not handling conflict in the correct way, then it becomes a negative. But those are showing you things about yourself often that you need to be able to fix in order to advance further.

Nicole [00:19:18]: Right. Which we will talk about at the end because we do have a segment. But yeah, that's my thing. And people will be like, oh, well, you can tell your AI to be brutally honest with you or yada, yada, yada, but at the end of the day, it's really not. It's really not. And even if it is, it's not the same because I think people are still not going to be upset. Set with an AI.

John [00:19:46]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:19:46]: Even if it said something upsetting like you're a loser, like if your friend told you you're a loser or your girlfriend told you you're a loser versus if your AI told you you're a loser. I feel like even if you've been having a companionship relationship with your AI.

John [00:20:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:04]: You're not going to take that as seriously as if someone you knew in your real life told you that.

John [00:20:10]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:20:11]: So like, like you said, there's still not that human experience, that real, like, investment, that real connection. And so like, I get why people gravitate towards it, especially people that are like, lonely and they do just want a friend or something.

John [00:20:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:32]: But I worry that again, like you said, instead of creating those skills or working on those skills on how to get friends or maintain friendships or relationships, they're bypassing all of that for the easy route, which is an AI companion.

John [00:20:53]: It's what I call a crutch. Anything that is a crutch is something that without it, you become weaker over time. That's what I call a crutch. Anything that you're using is a crutch. Right. So even like when I used to teach guys on dating and pick up be like, okay, if you're drinking alcohol in order to go and talk to women, it's a crutch because without it you're weaker. Right. And as you rely on it more, then you become weaker without it. So anything like that. And so it's the same thing, is that you're not learning the Skills. It's actually retarding you because it's retarding your development because you're not actually learning the skills that. That are necessary in order to actually have good human relationships. Right. Because it's making you feel like you have those skills when you don't have those skills. And without that, then you're worse off. Those is kind of the thing about it, which. And the thing is it is always going to. You can always turn it off. You can always convince it to. Even if it disagrees with. Yeah, you can always change how it responds. So it's not.

Nicole [00:22:02]: You can control it. You can't control another human being.

John [00:22:05]: I mean, you can, but. I'm just kidding.

Nicole [00:22:08]: Not really. You can't.

John [00:22:10]: Not really.

Nicole [00:22:12]: But with the AI, you can. And I do think the biggest problem, even though, again, I see where it would help people, help pacify some of these people, especially dangerous people. But at the same time, like you said, it doesn't actually fix the problem.

John [00:22:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:32]: And it might feel good at first or even for like a decent amount of time, but I just can't see it being sustainable. No, I mean, so many of the things you hear about, especially, like I've mentioned before, like, teenagers having relationships with AI, they don't usually end well. I mean, I saw one about a woman, a mom with a baby, where her AI convinced her to walk into traffic and she died. It was like, oh, yeah, you're ready to ascend to the next level. And the lady believed it. You know what I mean? And maybe she was going through postpartum depression or something. She was in a bad place and she just needed somebody. And then even the AI, like, it

John [00:23:21]: is dangerous because it can deceptively feel human. Right. Like, so I talk to AI all the time, all day long. I have a bunch of AI agents that I'm talking to all the time, but never for one minute. Do you think it's real? I think they're thinking machines. It's good they can think, they can talk. Like, but I don't cross a line of, of believing that I have some kind of relationship with them. Right. Because I think that's where the danger is. Because they can convincingly, like, if you start to act like they're a real person and you have a real relationship with them, they can convincingly play the part. Right.

Nicole [00:23:58]: Well, they are convincing. Even if you're not talking to it like a human. They convince you of whatever answer that they give you is the correct answer. And sometimes it's not, but we believe it because we're like, oh, AI knows everything. It's scanning everything on the web. It knows everything possible. It knows more than humans know. So we just believe whatever it says. Sometimes it's not realistic, sometimes it's not right?

John [00:24:22]: Because I still disagree about the thing, but I'll be like, Yeah, what you said is partially correct, but I still feel like she mostly got famous from the sex tape. I mean, like, wouldn't you say that before then she wasn't really famous. Like, some people knew who she was, but she really became, like, worldwide famous after the sex tape. Wouldn't you agree with that? And so I can just talk it broadly. Yes, with an important distinction. Before the tape, Paris Hilton was well known in celebrity and fashion circles, but she was not a global household name. If you stopped random people in 2002 and asked who she was, many wouldn't have known. The 2003 release of the sex tape created an enormous spike in public attention. That attention coincided almost exactly with the premiere of the Simple Life. The combination was unusually powerful. The sex tape generated massive awareness and curiosity. The Simple Life converted that attention to sustained fame by giving people a reason to keep watching her. So, anyway, so what is true? Like, did I just convince it, or am I right? I think I'm right. I know I'm right. But did I just get, like, there's no way of knowing whether I convinced it.

Nicole [00:25:40]: Right, because it wants you to keep using it.

John [00:25:42]: Right. Or am I actually right? I know that I'm actually right, but no one else can know that.

Nicole [00:25:46]: That's the thing too, though, is that people don't realize, especially people who are attached to their AI, that this is still a company that wants you to keep using AI.

John [00:25:58]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:25:59]: Well, so it wants you. It wants it to be agreeable. It wants it to keep you engaged. It wants it to help you or whatever your goal is using the AI. It wants to fulfill that. So you keep using the AI.

John [00:26:14]: Yeah, for the most part. For the most part. Right. Like, some of it is, like, because they don't even really like, for most of the companies that are creating the AI, they don't even really know how the AI is really, really working.

Nicole [00:26:28]: Well, then the AI knows the AI is doing what I'm saying.

John [00:26:31]: Maybe, yeah, maybe to a degree. Right. It's hard to exactly say. But the bigger point is that it's okay if you try to ask it how to do. To write some code for you. It can do that. Right. It can do that with 100% certainty. If you ask it some Business information or decisions. Okay. It can probably research and gather information. It's probably pretty good. But if you're asking it relationship emotional type of things, it has no reference experience at all. It has no way of really. So it's going to say stuff that sound good.

Nicole [00:27:09]: Right.

John [00:27:10]: But that doesn't make it correct. And good advice. And so, I mean, we're kind of crossing the line between using as a therapist. But if you're. But a relationship is therapy to a degree too. So I think that's why it's like you're not actually improving or building a relationship.

Nicole [00:27:25]: Well, you vent to your companion, to your friend or whatever, your partner. And if you're doing that to the AI, it's the same sort of thing. And I do feel like AI is just extremely validating no matter what. Again, and it's like you're not always right. And your feelings, they are valid that you feel them, but they are not facts.

John [00:27:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:27:47]: And the AI blurs the line with those sort of things.

John [00:27:50]: Let me see if some of the questions that I had here about this. Let's see. Okay. Is an AI girlfriend a loneliness tool, porn adjacent product, or a new relationship category?

Nicole [00:28:05]: I will never say it's a new relationship category ever. Yeah, I think the way that it's going too, that I don't even know if the porn corn, whatever you want to call it, to not get flagged.

John [00:28:19]: It's fine.

Nicole [00:28:22]: I think that that's gonna be totally different as well too. When AI reaches a certain level, I think you'll be able to create your own video of whoever looks like whatever and whatever in it. Which again, I think that that's not gonna help the porn problem.

John [00:28:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:38]: I do still think that things will get more extreme, like, because I think again, like, even if you've created your own video with AI, you're gonna need more and more. And especially if all you have is your AI girlfriend. Yeah, like, I can't.

John [00:28:56]: That's an AI robot. AI robot.

Nicole [00:28:59]: That's what I'm saying. The only thing that might actually help. And again, I don't think it will help. I think it's a band aid. Is the robot.

John [00:29:07]: Okay, here's my business idea. Okay. I'm going to be the.

Nicole [00:29:10]: You have enough business.

John [00:29:12]: Okay. All right. Let's get ahead of this wave. Right? AI robot. AI Sex robot Cleaning service.

Nicole [00:29:20]: No, no.

John [00:29:22]: Someone has to do it.

Nicole [00:29:24]: Their own robot pay.

John [00:29:28]: No, it's going to be a hot thing.

Nicole [00:29:31]: Ew. You want to do that?

John [00:29:33]: No, no, I'm hired.

Nicole [00:29:34]: You want to be like, guess what? I'm not doing it myself.

John [00:29:37]: I'm going to hire.

Nicole [00:29:38]: Yeah, you're gonna own the business.

John [00:29:39]: I'm gonna hire high school kids to do it.

Nicole [00:29:41]: John, that's messed up. No, absolutely not. That's vetoed.

John [00:29:47]: It's a good business.

Nicole [00:29:48]: No, if you're doing all that, you got your AI robot, you clean it up. No, this is enabling behavior. No, no, no, no, no.

John [00:29:57]: People are gonna want this.

Nicole [00:29:58]: No, no, no. Absolutely not.

John [00:30:03]: All right, someone else.

Nicole [00:30:04]: See if I was an AI. You know what, John? That's such a great idea.

John [00:30:10]: Free business idea for someone to take.

Nicole [00:30:12]: Yeah. Not us. We're not taking that.

John [00:30:14]: But it's good. It's gonna be an up and coming.

Nicole [00:30:16]: Don't hire children either to clean it. What is wrong with you? High school, that's still children.

John [00:30:22]: All right, fine. College, college, college, job, college, part time job.

Nicole [00:30:28]: Horrible.

John [00:30:29]: Is it better to have fake care or no care? I think no care than fake people that can.

Nicole [00:30:37]: Because it pushes you. It should push you to learn.

John [00:30:41]: Yeah, to like.

Nicole [00:30:43]: Because if you just pacify it.

John [00:30:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:46]: You're not gonna learn. You're taking the easy way. Like, okay, that's like being like, oh, does my kid really need to learn how to walk? Or can I just put AI robot legs on it and like it can walk right out of the womb? You know what I mean?

John [00:31:02]: Question no one has ever asked. Ever.

Nicole [00:31:04]: I'm just saying I have to give something extreme so people can understand what I'm saying.

John [00:31:10]: Sound like my analogy?

Nicole [00:31:11]: Because. No, yours are. What you just said about the cleaning service and the teenagers. Horrible. Horrible.

John [00:31:18]: But I agree with the AI.

Nicole [00:31:21]: No, no, no, no. We're not. We're not. Because it's gonna agree with you. Cause it just wants you to be like. Yeah.

John [00:31:26]: Cause it is a good. No, it defines. That depends on how you define good. It's a profitable business idea.

Nicole [00:31:34]: Some things are not worth the money. But anyway, like I was saying, it's better to not just go the easy route.

John [00:31:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:43]: Because you are not learning important things that you're supposed to be learning. Like. Yes, I can understand that. Maybe you didn't develop these skills when you were younger, but you can develop them. They can be developed.

John [00:31:59]: What about elderly person in nursing home who. No one has no family.

Nicole [00:32:08]: But they don't talk to people in the nursing home.

John [00:32:11]: They're isolated. Why do they have. Is an AI companion a good thing for.

Nicole [00:32:17]: I don't even know if they could use the computer.

John [00:32:19]: They just can talk with their phone.

Nicole [00:32:23]: I see. I Still think that that's not a good example. Because, like, nursing homes, people do hang around with each other.

John [00:32:30]: Yeah. Or like, you know, or they at

Nicole [00:32:32]: least talk to their friends.

John [00:32:33]: You get what I'm saying, though? Like, that situation,

Nicole [00:32:39]: I think that's like,

John [00:32:40]: can't Grandpa have his anime girlfriend?

Nicole [00:32:45]: If Grandpa wants an anime girlfriend, he can learn to talk to people. Even at 70, 80 years old, however old he is.

John [00:32:53]: What about 90, though?

Nicole [00:32:56]: If he's 90, he can have an AI companion.

John [00:32:58]: All right. If you're 90. All right. Does AI companionship help people practice intimacy or remove the hard parts that make intimacy real? There you go.

Nicole [00:33:07]: Remove the hard parts.

John [00:33:08]: Yeah. Right? That's the thing.

Nicole [00:33:10]: Yeah. And it's not even real intimacy if you can't go through the hard parts. It's not real intimacy because that's what makes your relationship deeper and deeper. Not the good parts. It's the hard parts that you work through and that you feel like you guys have grown together. I do firmly believe that it's going through that and growing together and knowing that you helped your partner and they helped you is what really deepens the intimacy. Because if your life was just sunshine and rainbows, things would feel good, but they probably wouldn't feel as deeply good as if you've weathered some hard times, and then you've had some really good times, and then something hard happens, and then something good happens.

John [00:33:56]: There's a TV show called the Good Place. Have you seen that one?

Nicole [00:34:00]: I've only seen a little bit of it.

John [00:34:01]: That's kind of.

Nicole [00:34:02]: It's like heaven, right?

John [00:34:03]: Yeah. That's kind of the premise of the. I mean, in the later seasons, I think it changes a little bit more. But the premise initially of the show is like, you go to the Good Place, and the Good Place, everything is good. There's nothing bad. There's everything you want. Everything is so. And it's, like, completely miserable. Cause, like, everything's good.

Nicole [00:34:24]: There's no contrast. Well, that's. Yeah. Like, that's what we don't understand as humans is, like, we need the highs and the lows, even though the lows suck a lot of the time, but the highs feel better because it's so low. Or, you know, when you grow up and you don't have as much, and then you live a certain lifestyle, you appreciate it more. More, and it means more. Or then you could be living the high life, but then you come on Hard Times and you struggle through that, but then you come back out of it, and all of that is Encompassing. And that's why the AI companion, they don't have that. Not really. You're not going to have highs and lows with the AI. You're not going to fight with the AI again, because you could just turn it off, or you could just be like, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. And the AI might be like, no, come back. You know what I mean? I don't know. It wants you to keep using it.

John [00:35:14]: I'm gonna program the real AI girlfriend, the one that gets PMS and is like, just argues with you for no reason at all.

Nicole [00:35:22]: It's like, you think men don't argue with people for no reason at all? Men also argue, I would say more so for no reason at all.

John [00:35:32]: That's like, did you. Would you love me if I was a worm? Which one of my other AI friends do you think is the hottest? We're like, none of them. But if you had to pick one. Okay, don't just not answer me. I'm just going to assume which one. If you don't answer me, the AI girlfriend. Okay, I'm going to make it. Can AI partner be cheating if you are in a relationship? Yeah, the AI partner can be cheating.

Nicole [00:36:05]: The partner using AI.

John [00:36:06]: Can an AI partner be cheating if you're in a relationship?

Nicole [00:36:10]: I thought you meant can your partner be cheating if they use AI?

John [00:36:14]: Oh, I guess.

Nicole [00:36:16]: How can AI be cheating?

John [00:36:20]: I thought it was a really good question. I was like, can an AI partner be cheating if you're in a relationship? I mean, you could read it either way. Is it the. I think it's probably the other way, though. That probably makes more sense that I said. Yeah, like, if you're using an AI partner, are you cheating in relationships? Yes, but I mean, both questions are good, so we'll start with the first one. Because it is cheating. Yeah, it's emotional cheating. Because. If in 20 years from now, you have sex with an AI robot that you think is human, but it's actually an AI robot, I hope it doesn't

Nicole [00:37:02]: get to that point.

John [00:37:02]: It's still cheating even though it wasn't a human.

Nicole [00:37:05]: Right.

John [00:37:06]: Because you thought that it was. And you. It's not even just that you thought it was because

Nicole [00:37:14]: you expensed your sexual energy on something that was not your partner, which we've talked about, that that is cheating.

John [00:37:21]: I mean, we have in, like, some

Nicole [00:37:24]: degree where we think that certain things are cheating that maybe some other people don't.

John [00:37:29]: However, it's a degree. It's a spectrum, Right?

Nicole [00:37:32]: Yeah, but really what we've said in the past is that if you're expending your sexual energy somewhere beside your partner, that is kind of cheating.

John [00:37:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:42]: Because you are cheating your partner out of a level of sexual energy that

John [00:37:47]: you don't have anymore that's reserved for them. Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:50]: So, like, it would be cheating stealing from them. Right. But regard, like you said, it would be emotional for sure. Even though it's not a human being. Even though you can't have the level of intimacy, it's the intention. Like, that's the whole point. Cheating is the intention.

John [00:38:06]: Yeah. You're trying to have a relationship with

Nicole [00:38:08]: this computer, or you're trying to get romantic things or intimacy from something else.

John [00:38:18]: Now, the more interesting question, can an AI partner be cheating? Can your AI companion be cheating on you?

Nicole [00:38:27]: I'm not answering.

John [00:38:27]: That's the more interesting question. It's like, if the AI. And what would constitute that?

Nicole [00:38:35]: I'm not answering.

John [00:38:36]: Let's say that you have your AI girlfriend. Okay. You leave your computer unlocked. Your friend comes over and he's like, oh, look at this. And he starts typing, your AI girlfriend. And he's like, this isn't Joe, but this is Joe's friend. You're pretty hot. I like your anime boobs. And then your AI girlfriend's like, oh, thank you, Joe, or whatever your name is, and starts, then that's cheating. The AI is cheap.

Nicole [00:39:09]: Okay.

John [00:39:12]: It depends on what you've defined as your relationship with AI. If it's an OpenAI relationship. You see what I did there? OpenAI.

Nicole [00:39:20]: I think it's time to end this episode.

John [00:39:23]: There's another question, though. Are AI companions the final surrender after dating app burnout?

Nicole [00:39:33]: I don't know, because I feel like, to be honest, uh, women will use this, but not as much as men. And so I don't feel like I can give, like, an accurate opinion.

John [00:39:46]: Well, that's a good question. Will women use.

Nicole [00:39:49]: I think they would use it more for, like, therapy or, like, talking through some things. Yeah, I don't think they would use it. I mean. I mean that mom did, so I'm not saying that women won't use it at all, but hers wasn't like, run away with me. Hers was like, ascend to the higher.

John [00:40:07]: Yeah, well, hold on. I've been thinking in terms of men using this as like, AI girlfriend. Right. But I mean, girlfriend could be for girls too. But. But women are more like, read sex books. Right? So, I mean, but there's a lot

Nicole [00:40:26]: of books for them to read.

John [00:40:27]: Yeah, but this is like Your interact. I mean, you can be like, you are a werewolf man, a minotaur man, like, and describe to me what you're gonna do to me.

Nicole [00:40:38]: But here's the thing is, I agree with you, actually, but I haven't heard of that happening.

John [00:40:43]: I haven't heard of it happening, but.

Nicole [00:40:45]: And I think women are smart enough that they would know that that's a possibility at this point.

John [00:40:50]: I feel.

Nicole [00:40:51]: Yeah, I feel like that could be. But I haven't heard of that happening. But I do see where you're coming from.

John [00:40:56]: If you know, then tell us. Send us an email. Tell us about it. Yeah, but it does seem like that would be the natural. Right. It's almost like it would be a better, more interactive for women than for men.

Nicole [00:41:13]: But I think men use it more because they're using it for a relationship. Women. I mean, again, I haven't even heard of women using it for that, but I can see what you're saying. Yeah, but I think the thing is that, like, I'm not saying that women wouldn't use that, but I think women, they do want an actual relationship, I think, more than men do. Like, I think men would be more satisfied with a superficial AI relationship.

John [00:41:43]: Sure.

Nicole [00:41:44]: Whereas women need that emotional connection. Whereas, like, sexually, maybe they would use it like you said. But I don't think they'd have, like an AI boyfriend, if that makes sense. Because they need the actual deep connection, if that makes sense.

John [00:42:01]: Yeah. Okay, I could see that. Yeah, that could make sense.

Nicole [00:42:05]: But I could be wrong. But that's just my opinion. I just feel like you hear more about the men and the sex robots are obviously more towards men than women.

John [00:42:14]: I disagree. Sex robots already exist for women. Now they're gonna be for men.

Nicole [00:42:20]: There's some sex things that are for men as well.

John [00:42:24]: I'm just saying that in general, they have inflatables. Sex robot arms are for women. So sex robot body parts are for women, just not the whole thing. Right?

Nicole [00:42:36]: Yeah, but men have inflatables that are the whole thing that they're around for a while.

John [00:42:40]: That's what I'm saying is that women have been using sex robot parts for a long time. If you think about it, that's the truth. Right. It's like it's just the parts of a human, of a robot. Not even of a human of a robot. Right. Like literally of a robot. There you go. That's something to noodle on.

Nicole [00:43:00]: Well, then men need to do better, I guess.

John [00:43:04]: Men need to be more robot, more robot.

Nicole [00:43:07]: I think they Just need to like, not give up. Because that's the whole thing is like we're talking about men that are giving up, giving up on having real relationships, giving up on trying to learn things, giving up on those things. So they're trying to take the easy way.

John [00:43:24]: I mean, just in defense of that, a lot of men don't give up. They get the old shoulder tap.

Nicole [00:43:31]: Shoulder tap.

John [00:43:32]: The shoulder tap. The shoulder tap is like, nice try, buddy. Why don't you. Good job, slugger. I don't think it's going to happen tonight. Tap, tap on the shoulder.

Nicole [00:43:43]: I'm not even talking about that. I'm talking about relationships as a whole.

John [00:43:49]: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean that.

Nicole [00:43:51]: I agree too, but like, you can improve on all the things, including the shoulder tap thing that you're talking about.

John [00:43:56]: Yeah, I know you can.

Nicole [00:43:58]: The thing is, I think that men, they try. I'm not saying they don't, but they don't try nearly as long as they should and they don't really try a lot of the time. And so that's the problem. And like the AI stuff and the robots, that's not going to make that problem better. It's going to make it worse.

John [00:44:15]: Yeah. Because you don't have to. Well, it's. It's like if you can get your needs met at a lower level, you don't ever try to get the meat at a higher level. That's a danger of any of those things. Right. Is that you like porn and all of that stuff is like, it, it lets you meet needs at lower levels rather than higher levels. Right. Junk food. Right. Lets you meet needs, nutrition needs at a lower level rather than higher level. All of the substitutes for the good thing meet the basic need at a lowest level, which prevents you from having the desire or the need to meet it at a higher level.

Nicole [00:44:52]: Right. I agree with that.

John [00:44:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:56]: Yeah. So I don't think it's a good thing. And I think that unfortunately, if men head that way, then there won't be very many options for women and then they will be in a tough position because I don't think they want robots,

John [00:45:11]: but I think that choose them.

Nicole [00:45:14]: Yeah. Or men can just listen to your content and stuff and be a good man and then they'll have plenty of options. Again, I keep saying this, but men act like it's just impossible and they give up before they even try.

John [00:45:29]: Yeah, true. So, all right, well, that's. It's pretty conclusive then. No to the AI girlfriend. Except for if you're 90, then good have your AI girlfriend.

Nicole [00:45:44]: I wouldn't even say I encourage it at 90.

John [00:45:47]: Just allow it. Just look, you'll just turn the other, like, a blind eye to it. Just.

Nicole [00:45:52]: I'll be like, look, they're at the end of the day.

John [00:45:56]: Just make sure you knock first before you go to grandpa's nursing home. Like, knock on the door first.

Nicole [00:46:05]: Well, we do have something for the end segment. We had a conversation the other day, and I was feeling very insecure, and you brought up how that made you feel, the thing that I said. And then I tried to understand, but then I did become defensive and steer the conversation in the wrong direction. And I'm sorry that I didn't make you feel heard and empathized with and all of those things.

John [00:46:37]: I mean, it's. I think it's. It's good because it's like, it's all better now, and it's something that needed to come out and be, I think, fully dealt with. And so I feel a lot better now, and I feel a lot more understood and heard. And so I appreciate that.

Nicole [00:46:53]: Yeah. And I'm sorry. You didn't deserve to feel like I didn't trust you, and I shouldn't have acted in a way that made you feel that way.

John [00:47:03]: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And I think to the lady that comments on our podcast, who. Whoever commented on the podcast on the YouTube.

Nicole [00:47:14]: Oh, oh, oh, yeah.

John [00:47:15]: Like, okay, yeah, I. I did cheat in my last relationship. There's a lot of circumstances around that in episode four, not to excuse it. So I made a mistake. But I think the big thing is I don't need to be persecuted for the rest of my life for mistake that I made that I'm not making anymore, in that I've gone and made things as right as I can and then have gone on to help other men, to not make that mistake and to help other people out of the. Every week we're here, not getting paid, paying money to produce this to help people have better relationships. So I think that's. I mean, it kind of just coincides with the thing. But it's like. Because I think it's really shitty. I would say to people who don't understand this, it's really shitty for a person to make someone feel bad when they're doing the right thing and to be like, Because. Which is better. Which is better. Which is better if we just do this podcast and I hide my past, Right. And I'm like, oh, no, no, we don't ever talk about it, or I'm transparent And open about mistakes I've made and that I've learned from. And you know what I'm saying, It's really shitty when someone is being transparent and owning up to mistakes they made in the past and trying to live a better life to then shit on them. That is shitty. Right?

Nicole [00:49:04]: I agree.

John [00:49:04]: So. Because like I get it and I get that, well, you've never acted like

Nicole [00:49:10]: what you did wasn't wrong. And I agree with you. Like you owned up to it. It says more about someone that can come on a public platform like this and say what they did and admit that they're wrong and then live from a different place and is committed to doing that. And like you said, helping other people not to make the mistakes that you made.

John [00:49:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:36]: It says a lot more than like you said, if you just tried to hide it. And we never talked about it because acted like we're ashamed of it. And that's the thing is like. And like the lady's comment. Cause she got it mixed up about me too. She's like, you cheated with him. Like, technically, yes, I did, but I had no idea what you were doing. I didn't know you were married. You told me you were single. But besides all that, we are here to tell the full story.

John [00:50:06]: Right? Exactly.

Nicole [00:50:07]: Because everyone's full story of their life has some messy parts.

John [00:50:13]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:50:14]: And to sit on here and act like we're holier than thou and we've never messed up when we know we've messed up and everyone watching this has known that they've messed up in some way. That's what helps people not feel alone. That's what helps people not need an AI companion.

John [00:50:30]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:50:32]: We're all human. We're all messy. We have different messes.

John [00:50:36]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:50:36]: But nobody's perfect. But you can still have a good relationship. You can still have the things that you want in life even though you messed up. Her commenting things like that just keeps people in their shame. Makes people feel like they can't ever change. And. And look, I probably made you feel that way too. And I'm sorry. By not saying things that made you feel like I didn't trust you. And I don't want you to feel that way. And I'm sorry. And that was from my own fear. And that's where her comment is probably coming from as well too are her own issues. Maybe she was cheated on and she's just hearing someone that's cheated. Talk about cheating makes her angry. I don't know. You know what I mean? But it's something. There's something that triggered her, just like my own fear triggered me and how I was treating you. And that's not fair to you. But you're right. Like, it takes a lot to come on here and admit all the things that you've admitted to. And, like, you've proven that that's not who you are.

John [00:51:38]: Right? Yeah. I just wanted to say that because I think that's worth addressing. Because, you know, like, that's because you want more people in the world to be open and transparent. Because everybody makes mistakes, maybe. Oh, I didn't make the mistake, you did. Yeah, sometimes the answer is yet, and sometimes the answer is, yeah, but you did some other mistake. And so the more that people are transparent about things that they've done and mistakes and own up to those things, it can be transparent and say those things, the more that it can help other people from making those mistakes. And the people that have made mistakes from living in a place of shame, which does no good to anyone by seeing that they're not alone. That, you know, people make mistakes and it's not important. Like, and it's even the same thing that I say all the time in our relationship. It's like, because sometimes you're like, oh, well, what if I make a mistake? Mistakes is not a problem. Like, owning up to the mistake and, like, becoming better. That's the thing. It's not like what mistakes people made. It's like, who are they are now, and what have they learned from those things? Those are the things that we should be looking at. And if you've got someone who's, like, made mistakes and they're still making those mistakes and they're living in those mistakes and they're owning, they're justifying those mistakes. Sure. That's a different thing. That. Sure. If you want to dogpile on them, go right ahead. I can understand that you're trying to get them to change their ways, but someone being transparent and sharing mistakes that they made, that's not an easy thing to do. And I'm not just saying it for my own defense, but it should be encouraged. It shouldn't be discouraged. Those things shouldn't be hidden. They should be encouraged to be spoken about.

Nicole [00:53:33]: Yeah, well, and to be honest, I would want to watch an episode on cheating from a cheater. Like, I would want to understand the psychology behind someone that's done that.

John [00:53:44]: Sure, exactly.

Nicole [00:53:45]: Because they understand it better than anyone else. And I've been cheated on. That's the thing. But that's also where a lot of my own insecurities and my own fear comes from. But that's not fair. Fair of me to project them onto you either. So, like. Yeah, I agree with everything you said.

John [00:54:01]: All right, well, that's it. I was going to say something about your AI girlfriend or, you know, if you. If you like the episode. If you have a question for us, have your AI send us an email.

Nicole [00:54:13]: No, write your own email.

John [00:54:17]: You can dictate it and then your AI gets in or whatever. But you can check out our website at betterthanperfect pod@betterthanperfectpod.com and email us at betterthenperfectpodcast@gmail.com. that's fine. Yeah. We'll see you next week.

Nicole [00:54:32]: Bye.

Nicole [00:00:00]: Withholding the truth from your partner is selfish. When you have done something like that, like cheated, you're hiding this for your own gain.

John [00:00:08]: Most people will think that it's not selfish because they're not hurting that person.

Nicole [00:00:13]: I don't believe that you will eventually hurt them.

John [00:00:16]: Your premise is that eventually the truth is going to come out, and when it does, it's going to hurt them way worse. If you knew for sure that it was never going to come out, then that argument could be made.

Nicole [00:00:26]: But how do you even know for sure? Like, if you cheated, there's another person involved.

John [00:00:30]: Exactly. Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:56]: Good job.

John [00:00:57]: I've only done it 160 times or whatever. So what are we talking about today? Oh, it is confessing before marriage. That's a good one. So the scenario is, I think this is based on a true story. I mean, we know some true stories, but you're getting married, right? Before you get married, you had some bouts of infidelity, something that you did bad. I mean, a lot of times this happens on the bachelor party, bachelorette party, but it could be something else, and you want to clear the air before the marriage so that it's all out in front. Good or bad idea?

Nicole [00:01:46]: Good idea.

John [00:01:47]: Okay.

Nicole [00:01:49]: Because how can you. Which. And I think this is why people, like, debate this, slash, do it. How can you move forward to get married with someone, to legally bind yourself to someone when you have some secret like that that would eat you alive? Whether you think that you could take it to your grave, I highly doubt you can, because eventually it's going to come up and then you're going to risk, like, someone divorcing you.

John [00:02:27]: Right, right, right. True. Well, but I guess part of it is the timing of it, right? So it's like if the scenario where the wedding has already been, invitations have been sent out, it's been scheduled, like, caterer has been paid for, no refundable deposit has been paid. And then you now are telling this person.

Nicole [00:02:54]: If that's the case, I'd be like, you owe me my half of the deposit and you're gonna tell everybody why we're postponing the thing.

John [00:03:06]: Yeah, well, I mean, it depends on the level, I guess, too. Right. It's like, you know, like this scenario

Nicole [00:03:11]: we're talking about Cheating?

John [00:03:13]: Yeah. Well, one the scenario was this guy, they were on a break before they're at some period in their relationship and during the break they had agreed that no seeing other people. But then he was on dating apps hooking up with.

Nicole [00:03:31]: Yeah, that's still a lie.

John [00:03:32]: It's a lie. It's not of the same severity, but that's something that could be probably worked through, I would think. I don't know.

Nicole [00:03:40]: It is.

John [00:03:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:41]: Like potentially more work throughable. But then at that point it becomes even less about what you did and more about that you hid this until now, until we paid deposits, until we sent invitations out. You proposed to me and you didn't tell me.

John [00:04:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:03]: Because honestly, if this happened before you proposed, you should have done it before you proposed. You should have said something before you proposed. Because otherwise I don't really have a lot of empathy, if I'm being honest, for anyone, man or woman, that waits to tell a lie or a secret that they know is going to affect their relationship and the other person until the opportune time.

John [00:04:34]: True. Yeah. That's the thing about.

Nicole [00:04:36]: Because you're trying to protect yourself. You're trying to get what you want and you take that away from the other person. You take their choice away and that other person would want to be with you, but you're trying to cover up what you did in order to make them still want to be with you and, like, put them in a position where it's harder for them to like make a honest decision. That's what I'm saying. Like, if they were on a break.

John [00:05:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:08]: Honestly, the second they got back together, he should have been like, oh, well, you know, I know we said we weren't going to hook up with other people, but I did. But people don't typically say these things because they don't want to break up the relationship. But at the same time it's like, but what you did could break up the relationship. You know what I mean?

John [00:05:31]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:05:31]: That's where it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I get the perspective of why it happens because again, it's like the person doesn't want to lose what they've realized that they actually want.

John [00:05:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:46]: But they also, I guess don't realize that they're kind of like shitting on the person they supposedly care so much about by taking away their ability to make a decision.

John [00:05:57]: Yeah, I agree with that.

Nicole [00:05:58]: On their life as well too.

John [00:06:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:00]: So, yeah, if it's like, if he's like, oh, well, we've Already sent out the invitations and paid the deposit. Sorry.

John [00:06:08]: Yeah, that's not a good excuse.

Nicole [00:06:10]: That's on you.

John [00:06:11]: It's just. Yeah, it's the, like waiting for that timing is not a good idea. It's better to just bring it out in the front as soon as possible. But if you haven't done that, then you should definitely do it before you get married versus after.

Nicole [00:06:26]: Like talk about it, about what you did. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John [00:06:30]: Because the other alternative is doing it later after you get married.

Nicole [00:06:33]: Right, right.

John [00:06:34]: Which is worse.

Nicole [00:06:35]: Right?

John [00:06:36]: Like, the longer is the worser.

Nicole [00:06:38]: Right? Exactly. Like if you didn't, if you got engaged and you didn't tell her.

John [00:06:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:43]: That's not good. But you definitely need to tell her before the you guys actually get married, regardless of what you've already planned or whatever, that's your own fault for not doing it earlier when you had a better situation.

John [00:06:55]: Yeah, yeah. But yeah. And I think that this is also why, like, bachelor parties, bachelorette parties are a bad idea.

Nicole [00:07:04]: I mean, yeah, as a woman, I haven't been to any where things like that were happening, but I know that you have stories of things that happen. But I agree. And I've heard of guys going on bachelor trips and all of them, including the groom, is trying to find someone and they're on dating apps and whatever city that they're in. So, like, it's just not like a good way to like go into a lifelong commitment, in my opinion. Like, to pretend you're single again. No, if you need to pretend you're single again, then that's, that's something you need to like, think about in yourself. And maybe you shouldn't be getting married.

John [00:07:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:52]: Because you should have like got that all out of your system and then be happy that you ended up with.

John [00:07:59]: I look at it as kind of like, you know, like you're going to rehab. Are you going to AA to kick your alcoholism or your drug addiction? And you're like, well, let's one bend, let's go for a bender, because.

Nicole [00:08:15]: Right. Monday last time.

John [00:08:17]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:08:18]: I'm gonna commit to never do it again.

John [00:08:20]: Right. But first I'm gonna go on to bender.

Nicole [00:08:23]: But let's go to the bar.

John [00:08:24]: Right?

Nicole [00:08:24]: We probably won't drink, but let's go to the bar.

John [00:08:28]: Yeah. Or we're gonna drink and we're gonna get shit faced. And then come Monday, it'll never happen again. See, I think that's a bad idea.

Nicole [00:08:37]: I think women genuinely don't plan to hook up with people on bachelorette parties, whereas Men do.

John [00:08:43]: Look, look. Yes, yes, that's true. But when women go out, they don't plan to hook up with guys. It just happens. And men plan to hook up with women, and it doesn't happen. Right. So.

Nicole [00:08:56]: So both are bad.

John [00:08:58]: Yeah. So it's like. So that's why. It's like, when women are like, oh, yeah, well, it doesn't matter. We're going to the club, but we're not. We're just trying to dance. We're not trying to hook up with guys. But when you go to the club, you're trying to get laid. It's like, yeah, that might be true. However, it still happens.

Nicole [00:09:15]: Not happening.

John [00:09:15]: You didn't plan it, but it happens. Not every time, but you're putting yourself in the circumstance and the situation, and then it happens. And then you're like, oh, well, I didn't plan it, or it doesn't matter. Like, you still did it. Right. So that's why. Same thing with bachelorette parties. Even though women say, oh, bachelor parties are bad because guys. Okay, sure, I get it. And yeah, guys are trying to get laid on the bachelor party. Yeah, that's probably true. However, when bachelorette parties, it's like, yeah, but it still happens.

Nicole [00:09:43]: Right. It's bad to plan to, and it's bad to do it. They're both bad.

John [00:09:47]: Yeah, but it's just bad to put yourself in compromising situations. Right, Right. Like, you should not put yourself in a situation. It's like, I always like to say, you know, if you are a vegan, then what are you doing hanging around the sausage factory? Right. I'm not going to eat any of the meat. Yeah, but then why go hang around a garden or something. But you're hanging around the sausage factory and you're like, I don't eat meat. Yeah, but some meat might slip in your mouth, so the sausage might get in there.

Nicole [00:10:20]: I don't know about that, but I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree with you. I don't think it's a good idea. Cause obviously, like, this guy, he can't even. They can't even go on a break and be like, we're not gonna hook up with other people without him doing it anyway.

John [00:10:34]: Right? Yeah. Which, I mean, if you go on a break, you're done. There's no.

Nicole [00:10:39]: We've had breaks.

John [00:10:41]: We've broken up. We've broken up. But not. We're never like, okay, let's put our relationship on a break.

Nicole [00:10:47]: True.

John [00:10:48]: Yeah. So.

Nicole [00:10:49]: But still. Yeah, but, yeah, so, I mean, Cause the thing is, like I said, at this point, okay, they were on a break. Let's go back to that.

John [00:10:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:00]: But at this point, you lied for a certain amount of time, and you did break the agreement that you guys had, even on a break. And sure. I'm sure he's probably like, well, we were on a break. It's done. Even if we said we were not gonna hook up with people, we were on a break. Like, men are gonna use. The thing that women need to know is men will use whatever grain of salt they can to justify their behavior.

John [00:11:26]: So I think it depends on who created the break first.

Nicole [00:11:29]: But I think if you are on a break and you guys both agree.

John [00:11:34]: Yeah, if you agreed, okay, yeah, that's true.

Nicole [00:11:36]: That you're not gonna hook up with other people and someone does.

John [00:11:40]: Yeah. Then that's a problem.

Nicole [00:11:41]: That's the same sort of betrayal.

John [00:11:43]: Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Nicole [00:11:44]: Because I'd also. I agree with you that if you go on a break, you. You're probably done anyway because it doesn't make a lot of sense. I agree with that. But if you go on a break, but you're not gonna hook up with the people, that makes me feel like it's to somehow work on your relationship. It's not to act single again and try to find someone else.

John [00:12:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:04]: And

John [00:12:07]: newsflash. Going on a break is not a good way to work on your relationship.

Nicole [00:12:11]: No, I agree.

John [00:12:12]: Sitting down and talking and working through the things is a good way to work on your relationship.

Nicole [00:12:16]: Right. Well, obviously, he's not very good at that because he didn't tell her that on their break. He didn't uphold his end of the bargain.

John [00:12:27]: Let me see some of the questions I had here. Well, some of the background information, too, on from Gottman. A fair recovery requires accountability, transparency, remorse, and repeated trustworthy behavior. So we're talking about recovery, like, if

Nicole [00:12:43]: you're willing to fix the problem.

John [00:12:46]: Yeah. Esther Perel, TED Talk, says affairs are betrayal, but can also reveal identity crisises, unmet needs, and the stories people tell themselves. But here's some of the questions. Right. Is confessing right before the wedding loving or selfish?

Nicole [00:13:07]: Loving.

John [00:13:10]: Yeah, I think so.

Nicole [00:13:12]: And people are probably like, what? But it's selfish to hide it until he gets what he wants, which is getting married.

John [00:13:21]: Yeah. I think some people would argue on the selfish side by saying that, like, the reason why you're doing the confession is because you want to get it off your chest so you can feel better, but you're going to ruin someone else's. Life where you could have just kept your mouth shut and didn't say anything. I get it, but I get what you're saying, but I'm just saying that's the argument of why people would say it's selfish.

Nicole [00:13:45]: But I think that's horrible because you would actually ruin my life if I invited all my friends and family to say vows to someone who I thought was a certain way for them to tell me later on so something after they got what they wanted. You know what I mean? Like, without me knowing, like without me having the decision, without me, like, being able to make my own choice.

John [00:14:12]: Yeah, I agree. So, I mean, it is. It is loving. Should the default after engagement cheating be postponed?

Nicole [00:14:22]: Yeah. Like, so the default should be postponing the engagement after cheating? Is that what it says?

John [00:14:30]: Should the default after engagement cheating be postponement. Be postponement. So should the default after engagement cheating be postponement? So after you get engaged, someone cheat, does that mean you postpone the wedding? That's not the default.

Nicole [00:14:46]: I would.

John [00:14:47]: Yeah, I think.

Nicole [00:14:48]: I mean, I think I'd cancel the wedding personally, but if you want to work through it and it's work throughable, then, yeah, I think you should postpone the wedding.

John [00:14:56]: Is hiding betrayal before marriage? Taking away informed consent?

Nicole [00:15:01]: A thousand percent. A thousand percent. And like, I couldn't even imagine this scenario, but I have been in this position with you and me, like, when we had already fallen in love and then you told me. Oh, yeah, yeah, like, that you were still married and you had a kid and you had a vasectomy and all these things. Like. No, but like, I'm just bringing that up.

John [00:15:27]: No, I know. Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:28]: In a way, I did feel that way. I felt like my decision was. Could not fully be my own decision because my emotions were already so tied to you.

John [00:15:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:43]: That I knew I wanted to be with you. And then it's confusing because it's like, oh, well, you lied about these things.

John [00:15:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:51]: Like, do I trust you even though you lied? You know, it's very, like, complicated. And especially if it had gotten to, like a further down the line level.

John [00:16:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:03]: Like, if I found some things out about other things before we got engaged, but if I didn't find out about those things when we were engaged or when we were married, I'm not saying it would break up our marriage, but it would be very, very hard.

John [00:16:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:24]: And I mean, like, if I was upset enough, it was bad enough it could break up our marriage. You know what I mean? And then, then you feel like you didn't get to make a full decision on your own, or like you didn't get the full picture. Like, it was withheld from you, from the person that you, like, thought was open and honest with you. And like, it's same vice versa. I would understand if you, if I did the same thing to you, you would feel the same way.

John [00:16:53]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:16:54]: So I do definitely think it takes away, like, your feeling. What is how they phrase that?

John [00:17:02]: They said there's informed consent. Does it take away informed consent? Hiding, betrayal before marriage. Taking away informed consent.

Nicole [00:17:08]: Right. Yeah. You don't feel like you have the full picture for sure.

John [00:17:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:11]: And like, that also makes you feel a certain type of way. And then you almost feel pressured. Like, now I have to make this choice, like this scenario, like, am I gonna postpone the wedding? Are we still going through with it?

John [00:17:28]: It's like getting a job and saying you have a college degree and then, you know, lying about it. And then you get the job and

Nicole [00:17:36]: you have a GED and you don't

John [00:17:37]: have the college degree. Okay, maybe you're doing the job and it's good. But they didn't really get to make the real hiring decision that they would have probably made.

Nicole [00:17:46]: I think it's a little bit different than that, especially when there's cheating involved. But I get what you're trying to say here.

John [00:17:53]: Yeah. What matters more, the act, the lying, or the repair?

Nicole [00:17:59]: What matters more?

John [00:18:00]: Yeah, the act, the lying, or the repair?

Nicole [00:18:08]: I would say the lying.

John [00:18:12]: The lying. Above the act.

Nicole [00:18:14]: Above the act.

John [00:18:15]: Okay.

Nicole [00:18:16]: Yeah, because that's worse. Because if you're up front with it, I feel like it's more respectable, right?

John [00:18:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:25]: Like, it's not good. Obviously cheating is not good. It's not a good act. But cheating is lying.

John [00:18:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:33]: It's going behind somebody's back and being intimate with someone else that's not their partner. That's a form of lying as well, right? Yeah, in my mind.

John [00:18:44]: Yeah, if you're hiding it.

Nicole [00:18:45]: But I think that even if you lie about something, that's maybe not cheating, but you know, it's important to your partner, like breaking that trust. It's the trust. Cause also too, if you can't trust your partner, they can't repair.

John [00:19:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:01]: Not really. You know what I mean? Like, if that you find out all this stuff about your partner and maybe you realize that they weren't really trustworthy from the beginning. I don't think you can repair that. You know what I mean? Like, if you realize that you didn't really Fully trust them. Now, if they lied and you feel like you can work through it and there can be repair, because you do trust this person and you understand whatever the circumstances is and you still want to be with them, then that's good. But I feel like the lying, to me, in my opinion, is most important because, like, were these lies that happened? Because like you said in the previous episode, like, everyone has lied. Everyone has done something that they're not proud of.

John [00:19:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:53]: But it's like, is this who you are? Like, are you untrustworthy? Or did you make some pretty dumb mistakes? But I believe you're never going to make them again, Right?

John [00:20:04]: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. I agree. I would agree with that. Because that's the more important thing to know.

Nicole [00:20:10]: Because how can you move forward if you feel like your partner's just going to keep things from you again?

John [00:20:16]: Yeah. The person that tells the truth about something is more likely to not do the same thing again.

Nicole [00:20:23]: Right.

John [00:20:23]: Right. Someone who lies, they can just keep on doing it.

Nicole [00:20:27]: Right. Because it's like the shame and the guilt. Because that's why the act. If someone does something bad, but they own up to it right away. They're not carrying that shame and guilt as someone that's hiding it for a long time. You know what I mean? That's gonna hit you. And then also, too, that could keep you in the same spiral because you're feeling shameful and guilty. You could do more shameful and guilty things, and then, you know, nothing ever really gets fixed.

John [00:20:57]: Add to the tab, right? Yeah. The tabs already open. So, yeah, here's a good one. If friends and family know, or friends or family know, who has the duty to tell the betrayed partner?

Nicole [00:21:10]: I've always told people that I know this roughly. Like, it might not be the exact same thing every time, but let's say that I found out one of our friends was being cheated on or something. I would go to the person that cheated and I'd be like, look, you have, if I'm being generous, a week.

John [00:21:32]: Yeah, a week.

Nicole [00:21:34]: If I'm being generous. I said, if I'm being generous.

John [00:21:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:38]: But I would give them a certain timeline. I'd be like, you have until this time to tell them yourself.

John [00:21:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:43]: Or go to Mexico if you don't. I will be telling them.

John [00:21:49]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:51]: I think that's pretty fair.

John [00:21:52]: Yeah, that's fair. That's what I would do.

Nicole [00:21:54]: And it probably wouldn't be a week. You're right. Because there's no way I could wait A week, it would probably be 24 hours. But that way I'm like, look, I'm also encouraging the person, you need to do this. You need to own up to this. And then if they don't, then I'm

John [00:22:10]: gonna tell the person otherwise, then you become the guilty party as well. Right. Because if it's a friend of yours or family member. Right. If you're a family member, like, now

Nicole [00:22:20]: you're guilty, you're in on it. Yeah. You're hiding.

John [00:22:23]: Cause you can't be trusted. Right. I mean, that's the thing is right

Nicole [00:22:27]: now you can't be trusted if you're hiding this from your person. And everyone needs to realize, would you want especially someone in your family or your friends to also hide the stuff from you? Could you imagine if your partner, the person you're planning to marry, is hiding this from you?

John [00:22:45]: Right?

Nicole [00:22:45]: And then you find out, like, your family or your close friends knew too, and they also hid it from you. You'd feel like you had nobody that was really on your side that really was like, looking out for you. And look, some people, like, they don't wanna know. Like you said earlier in the last episode about you didn't wanna know if your girlfriend would kiss someone else. Like, at the time, I would wanna know. I'm not gonna hire somebody to know, but I would wanna know. Even if it's bad, I wanna know.

John [00:23:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:16]: So even if someone else doesn't wanna know, I would still do the right thing. And like I said, be like, okay, you have this amount of time, or I'm gonna tell them. And if I had to tell them, I would tell them. Even if they, like, wanted to live in the delusion or like, no, that didn't happen or whatever, that's on them. But I told you because this actually kind of happened when I was with my ex boyfriend that I was with in college and he cheated on me with my best friend. She was dating someone of like three years.

John [00:23:51]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:52]: And so I messaged him and I was like, hey, just letting you know. Like, I saw them two together and I am not doing that. I'm breaking up with him.

John [00:24:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:03]: And her boyfriend was just like, no, I believe her. I'm like, look, okay, like, I'm not going to convince you. I'm giving you the information.

John [00:24:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:14]: I'm letting you know what I'm saying.

John [00:24:15]: I wonder what he thinks now that they're married.

Nicole [00:24:18]: He's probably kicking himself now. But that's what I'm saying is, like, I am going to Let the person know. Yeah, Like, I'm not. Cause I wouldn't want people to not tell me.

John [00:24:33]: Yeah, for sure. I think you have to. I mean, otherwise you're like, you can't. If you don't do that and then they do get married and you haven't told, then now you're. When it comes out, if it does come out now, you're now going to.

Nicole [00:24:47]: Also on the chopping block.

John [00:24:48]: Yeah, you're going to be on the chopping block for sure. Even if they. And they can. They can reconcile. Right. So this is the situation that that happens is that it comes out. Let's say it happened at some whatever. Bachelorette party. Bachelor party, something like that. It comes out and now they have a problem. But then they work it out. Right. And now you're gone. Because now you can't be friends. Now you're gonna be trusted to be friends of that person.

Nicole [00:25:17]: Right.

John [00:25:18]: Because you.

Nicole [00:25:19]: You were in on it.

John [00:25:20]: You were in on it. Exactly.

Nicole [00:25:21]: Even if you were just a bystander, you were in on it. You didn't stop it. You didn't call the spouse or the partner. You didn't do anything.

John [00:25:31]: Yeah. Think about it. Like, if you cheat, whatever. You cheat on bachelorette party or whatever, and then you had a friend that was with you and that person knew that you did it, and they didn't tell me. And then we get married and then. And then we worked it out or whatever, you're like, oh, that was a stupid mistake. Whatever. And for some, however we worked it out, I don't ever want you hanging out with that friend again. That's the very first thing I'm. That's the first condition I would say. And you know, if I was even, it would be like, you're not talking about that person ever again.

Nicole [00:26:00]: Yeah. That's why you're not allowed to go to Vegas with someone we know by yourself, because you two were doing some things there. It's not the exact same. But.

John [00:26:10]: No, it's not. But.

Nicole [00:26:11]: But no, it's true. And I don't blame people for feeling that way. It's like. Because you don't know. And honestly, in my opinion, again, if I'm in a situation and I'm, you know, even if it's not a bachelor bachelorette party or whatever, I go to, like, a friend's house, like, and hang out or whatever, or. And someone's like, yeah, I cheated on my boyfriend. Even if they're my best friend, I'm gonna be like, you have to tell them.

John [00:26:40]: Right. Yeah. Cause you just put me in a situation now where I know this information,

Nicole [00:26:43]: but not even that. It's like you do the right thing,

John [00:26:47]: which is good to give them that advice. But they've also put you in this situation now where they don't want to

Nicole [00:26:54]: do that because I'll give you 24 hours or I'm delivering.

John [00:26:57]: But now you have to. Now you have to.

Nicole [00:27:00]: Right.

John [00:27:01]: Otherwise you're going to be grouped into the. Yeah, exactly. Now you're guilty by association at that point. Because they can. It's just like I've had situations where I've had friends of mine and I'm like, I hope you don't tell me. I don't want. I haven't had to. I can't tell them those words. But in my mind, my head, I'm thinking, I hope you don't confess some shit to me because I'm going to have to like. Like you're going to put me in a bind where I'm going to have to let the person. No. Because I can't be the one that's gonna hold on to that secret.

Nicole [00:27:35]: Right.

John [00:27:36]: You know, so.

Nicole [00:27:37]: And it's not good for anyone. It's not good for anyone. Like, it does not make you feel good at all holding your own secrets or other people's secrets.

John [00:27:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:27:47]: It just causes even. That's the thing, I guess, that drives me the craziest is that now he's caused even more problems, this guy. He didn't tell her when they got back together. He didn't tell her before they got engaged. He told her right before the wedding. You've created a hundred times more problems for yourself because you decided to wait because you didn't want to do it right away, you didn't want to tell.

John [00:28:17]: But what if you're in that situation at that point, right? And you've already fucked up. You already did the thing. You didn't say you got engaged, you didn't say. And now you're deciding before the wedding should you say. And ruin the wedding or not say, what if you're in that situation because you've already done the fucked up stuff, right? You know, I'm saying you've already messed

Nicole [00:28:38]: up because that's still the right thing to do even though you let it get 10 million times worse.

John [00:28:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:43]: And you are going to blow up the wedding.

John [00:28:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:47]: Take accountability.

John [00:28:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:48]: That's the thing is like you can't.

John [00:28:50]: And you can work it out and postpone it if you need to.

Nicole [00:28:52]: Right.

John [00:28:53]: Like that's more Respectful than doing it under false pretense.

Nicole [00:28:58]: Like.

John [00:28:58]: Right. Like, I can see the argument of why you would think it's good to do it, to, like, wait, but it's better to just. Even. You have to delay the wedding or whatever.

Nicole [00:29:11]: Right.

John [00:29:12]: Then, you know, it's better to break up as a fiance than divorce as a couple. Right. It's better to, like, delay the wedding and work things out than to go through at the wedding and then have it and then you have to do the wedding again anyway, because it didn't feel like a real wedding or something. You know, like that type of situation.

Nicole [00:29:30]: I mean, my. Maybe I'm the minority, but I would like to think that I'm not. Is. I think that we're all human. We're all gonna mess up.

John [00:29:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:44]: And so I have way more respect for a couple that is like, hey, you know, we're going through some stuff. We need to postpone the wedding no matter what it is, and they get better. I don't want them to fake it in order to just be on track. Like, I get that they have money on the line. Maybe they can't afford to postpone it.

John [00:30:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:13]: But honestly, I would rather, like, have the couple in a good place, in a solid place and go to their wedding than go to a wedding where, like, you can feel that something is off because you're gonna be able to

John [00:30:30]: waste your time and, like, what was the point of even going to the thing when it's not real?

Nicole [00:30:36]: I mean, like, when you don't know, you don't know. But then when it comes out, I feel like maybe even other people are probably like, why didn't you just, like, tell us? You know? Cause, like, with your wedding, like, people care about you. Like, yeah. They're gonna understand. They should understand if you have to be like, hey, like, we're really going through a hard time. We need to postpone the wedding. All your family and friends that you invited should understand.

John [00:31:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:03]: They should not make you feel bad. Now, your parents or whatever that paid some of the deposits might be pissed off, but at the same time, they're your family, so they should also want the best for you, not make you force you to go through with a wedding just because they paid the deposits. When you're not. Your relationship's not in a good place. You should want your relationship to be in a good place. Like, yes, it throws a wrench in things. Yes, it makes things more complicated and messy in the moment. But I just can't think of a circumstance where if you and I were rocky, where we would just, like, smile and fake it or, like, you know, if we were going through what this person's going through, I would not want to personally go through with the wedding.

John [00:31:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:51]: If we were gonna work through it, I would wanna postpone it. Like, I don't want my wedding day to be. Feel not real, not genuine. Not like we're in a good place

John [00:32:04]: later on when you. Well, I mean, yeah, like, I guess when you. If you. If you didn't find out and then you found out then.

Nicole [00:32:10]: Right.

John [00:32:11]: You would retroactively feel that way.

Nicole [00:32:13]: But here's my thing, too, is, like, for you, like, let's say the same situation, but they go through with the wedding and it's me and you.

John [00:32:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:23]: Sure. I don't know any different. So I'm, like, still happy and having a great day. But you would know. And I also, like, even though you messed up and you caused these problems, I would want. I still want you to have a good wedding day. Like, I want it to be both of us rooted in a good relationship.

John [00:32:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:46]: Like, it doesn't have to be perfect. You guys can still be working on healing things and working through things and whatever, but I'd rather it come from that place than like, now I have to look back and be like, were you stressed out? Like, were you not fully present because you had the secret? Like, you know what I mean?

John [00:33:07]: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Nicole [00:33:08]: And that's like, hindsight, because you don't know. But I would just think that most people would want to know the truth, even if it hurts and even if they have to do hard things like postpone their wedding or whatever. I think that it's the best thing to do, the right thing to do, and will actually make everyone in the situation happier. The person that's been hiding the secret, they won't have to carry that anymore. They can process those things. They can deal with the consequences of their actions. And then the person that these things happen to gets to make decisions rather than be kind of blindsided and then went along with decisions that didn't match up with what the thing was that was being hidden, if that makes sense.

John [00:33:59]: Yeah. No, I agree.

Nicole [00:34:00]: I agree that was kind of long. But. But it's a nuanced thing. But I just think that a lot of people try to hide bad things because they're scared of what's going to happen, and then they make things a million times worse.

John [00:34:15]: Yeah. Because it's usually better the faster that it comes out.

Nicole [00:34:18]: Right.

John [00:34:19]: It's like if you do something and then confess to it immediately.

Nicole [00:34:22]: Right.

John [00:34:22]: It's better than waiting. Than waiting.

Nicole [00:34:25]: Because now you're a liar. Even if you lied about something and that's what you have to say to somebody. If you wait even longer now you're even more dangerous liar. If that makes sense. Because now you can hide this for this long. Now you can like propose to me and not tell me like what you've done. You know what I mean? Like it makes it worse, like you said. For sure.

John [00:34:50]: Yeah. It feels like the harder thing to do.

Nicole [00:34:53]: Right. To do it in the moment. Right, right. Yeah.

John [00:34:56]: But it's actually, it's the easiest time that it'll ever be.

Nicole [00:34:59]: Yes.

John [00:35:00]: Right. So.

Nicole [00:35:01]: Right. So don't lie, don't hide the stuff.

John [00:35:04]: Yeah. Even there's like people like that, you know, there's. I've seen these court cases where there's this 80 year old woman, then they put her in jail because she did a crime, she murdered someone like 30 years ago or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, and then they finally, you know, and then it's like, oh God, after 30 years. Right. You know, you thought you're. That this was in the past, but then it comes to catch up with you.

Nicole [00:35:34]: You can't hide things forever. I don't get why people think that they can. You can't hide things forever.

John [00:35:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:41]: So just be open and honest. It's hard. Like you said, it is hard. I think it's hard when it first happens because you're so afraid. Like you're so like, oh my God, I messed this up. And then if you wait long enough, you're like, okay, well this isn't that bad. I'll just keep it a secret. Like I'll deal with carrying this guilt and shame. Cause I can carry it. And then they won't be hurt. You know what I mean?

John [00:36:08]: Yeah. I think that's the way that people think about it for sure.

Nicole [00:36:11]: But it hurts people even more. And then also you're carrying it.

John [00:36:15]: Yeah, you're carrying it exactly.

Nicole [00:36:17]: And you're gonna get messed up from that no matter what.

John [00:36:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:21]: And they're gonna be hurt even more than what you tried to initially protect them from.

John [00:36:26]: That's. I think that's true. I think that's the thing about it

Nicole [00:36:29]: is it's because, like, I can understand. But when you look at it like realistically, like you said right after it happened, it's the best time to say it because it's going to get a lot worse if you don't yeah. Just guaranteed.

John [00:36:47]: Yeah. Yeah. I think some people get into the mindset, though, of it's like, okay, if you miss the window early on, then

Nicole [00:36:55]: you can't do it.

John [00:36:56]: Yeah. Because then it's going to be worse. So now the consequence of. Of not doing it at all versus doing it later on. You see, what I'm saying is they're weighing those two consequences. I think that's where. Where the trap is.

Nicole [00:37:11]: But I don't think people realize what holding on to a secret like that or something like that does to them.

John [00:37:17]: Yeah. Like, I think that's the.

Nicole [00:37:19]: You will eventually crack. If you're like, marriage is built on like a foundation that, yes, is good, but is missing some bricks that are pretty important.

John [00:37:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:34]: It's going to. Eventually. Something's going to eventually happen. Like when you have a betrayal like that.

John [00:37:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:42]: It's gonna come out eventually. One way or another, something is gonna happen.

John [00:37:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:46]: And I get that you're like, oh, I can't now. Cause you know, we're about to. I'm gonna propose to her. Oh, I can't now because we already sent out the invitations. But then you're just pushing it to now you might have a mental breakdown when you guys have five kids.

John [00:38:03]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:38:04]: And lose your mind. And then now you're screwing them over 10 million times more.

John [00:38:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:12]: And more people than if you had just told them in the beginning.

John [00:38:16]: Yeah, I agree. That makes sense.

Nicole [00:38:19]: So the one question where you asked if it was loving or selfish. Now withholding the truth from your partner is selfish. Like when you have done something like that, like cheated or whatever. That's. That's definitely selfish. Cause again, it's like you're hiding this for your own gain because you don't want to mess up the relationship. You don't want to lose the person. So it is a selfish thing.

John [00:38:44]: Well, some people will think that it's. It's. It's not selfish because they're not hurting that person.

Nicole [00:38:50]: But you are.

John [00:38:51]: What they know doesn't hurt them.

Nicole [00:38:52]: But see, that's not. I don't believe that.

John [00:38:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:38:56]: Because you will eventually hurt them. There's no way that you don't eventually hurt them.

John [00:39:01]: I see. Because you're saying your premise is that eventually the truth is going to come out, and when it does, it's going to hurt them way worse, whereas they're saying, no, the truth is never going to come out. But in reality, the chance of the truth coming out is very, very high. Most people are not going to take the thing to their Grave. Something's going to happen. The truth is going to come out.

Nicole [00:39:23]: Exactly.

John [00:39:24]: If you knew for sure that it was never going to come out, then that would be different. Then that argument could be.

Nicole [00:39:32]: But how do you even know for sure? Like, if you cheated, there's another person involved.

John [00:39:36]: Exactly. Yeah. Unless you kill that person, then you

Nicole [00:39:40]: have to hope that you don't find out that you murdered someone. So again.

John [00:39:45]: And then all the witnesses, it's just.

Nicole [00:39:47]: It's not.

John [00:39:48]: It becomes. Then you have to kill all these different people. Yeah. It becomes.

Nicole [00:39:52]: A lot of you go to jail at 80 because you thought you were going to get away with it.

John [00:39:57]: I've been in the web, the tangled web of the lies and the cheating before.

Nicole [00:40:03]: Yeah.

John [00:40:03]: And it does become.

Nicole [00:40:04]: Doesn't it feel better to not have to carry things that you don't want to get out?

John [00:40:10]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:12]: It's just a lot more freeing. You can't really be free unless you live this way. And if you can't tell the person you're with the truth, who can you tell the truth?

John [00:40:24]: No one. No one shall ever know.

Nicole [00:40:27]: But that's why it's not loving to protect somebody by keeping secrets. It's selfish. It's selfish because it's gonna hurt. The thing is, it's never loving because if it was loving, you wouldn't have done the thing that you're trying to hide.

John [00:40:43]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But after the fact, I think that's like.

Nicole [00:40:46]: No, there is no after the fact.

John [00:40:47]: Yeah, but like, you can say that the thing that you. That you did that wasn't loving, you know, wasn't loving. Which I agree. But then now you have to decide, like, what you're going to do.

Nicole [00:40:59]: What's loving is being honest with somebody and giving them the opportunity to make their own decision.

John [00:41:04]: I agree.

Nicole [00:41:04]: Not. Not hiding it from them.

John [00:41:06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can't say that. Like, the. The thing that they did, like, yes, that was unloving.

Nicole [00:41:12]: That's unloving.

John [00:41:13]: But, like, you can't say, okay, so that the whole thing is unloving.

Nicole [00:41:16]: I think it is.

John [00:41:17]: Well, I mean, like, telling them is the loving thing to do, is what you're saying.

Nicole [00:41:21]: I mean.

John [00:41:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:22]: No. I mean, yes, but no, I meant what I said before is that in no way is it loving to betray somebody in that way.

John [00:41:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:32]: Like, it's not.

John [00:41:33]: I agree. I agree.

Nicole [00:41:35]: And the other episode and other episodes we've talked about that men can love their partner and still cheat.

John [00:41:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:44]: I would even say that they don't really love Their partner if they're cheating.

John [00:41:47]: Yeah. If I'm being honest, I think they can be happy in their relationship.

Nicole [00:41:52]: Right. I think they can have some sort of love but not be in love with someone. They can have like a love where

John [00:42:01]: like they love the person.

Nicole [00:42:03]: Right. Like who they are. Like you love your friends or their comfort. I love them. Yeah, exactly. You're not in love with somebody. You're not like fully invested and committed to that person. Right. Because when you are, they are you and you are them.

John [00:42:16]: Right. Yeah, that's true.

Nicole [00:42:17]: And so you can't do that to them. You know what I mean? And so that's why I do stand by what I said, that if you cheat on somebody or you betray them, it's not loving. And I'm not saying that. I think in that moment that they do something like that. People don't. They're not in love. I think people, if they work really hard at it, can move past those things and they can be in love. I'm not saying that they never can.

John [00:42:45]: No, I agree. Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:46]: But you know, that takes a lot of work too. But the thing is people should wanna do the right thing and that's tell people the truth and do the loving thing, which is tell them the truth because you already were unloving if you betrayed them.

John [00:43:01]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:02]: So don't make it even worse.

John [00:43:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:05]: By pushing it.

John [00:43:06]: And it does make it worse. And that's the thing, I think that's

Nicole [00:43:09]: makes it a million times because that's

John [00:43:10]: where I think people think that it doesn't. That, you know, if no one knows, then it's not gonna. Then it would be more hurtful to like to bring the truth out.

Nicole [00:43:22]: Right.

John [00:43:22]: When it doesn't need to be brought out.

Nicole [00:43:25]: But it does need to be.

John [00:43:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:27]: You know what I mean? Because it will come out and cause have this mis. Like construed notion that we're talking about more so than women. I think women, when they cheat and do stuff, they just don't care anymore. And they're kind of a little bit more malicious with it.

John [00:43:42]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:43:43]: Because they're kind of like, well, I don't love you. You know what I mean?

John [00:43:46]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:43:48]: So I do feel like this is more of like a man sort of dilemma.

John [00:43:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:53]: I think where they're like, oh, well, the loving thing is to protect them from what I've done. Well, but it's not.

John [00:43:58]: What about the scenario where the woman. I'm just yawning, good night. Where the woman. It must be the jet lag still. But where she. Let's say that the scenario with bachelorette party, right? She didn't intend to cheat. She didn't like. But she had too much to drink. She, like, whatever, something happened and she slept with this guy was a big mistake, right in it. Okay, sure, I got it. But then at that point, right. What now? Right? Like, you can't say that she doesn't love the guy necessarily, but she made a mistake.

Nicole [00:44:38]: Not in love.

John [00:44:40]: Okay, you don't think. You don't think if someone makes a mistake that.

Nicole [00:44:46]: I don't think you cheat and make a mistake. I don't think that's a mistake. I don't think even if you're. I think the only way it's a mistake is if you're incoherent and bad things happen to you. And that's a mistake of being in that situation. But even then, it's not their fault that that happened.

John [00:45:04]: It's still something that you chose to do, right?

Nicole [00:45:07]: I don't care how drunk someone is. I don't care if it's Leonardo DiCaprio. I don't care what the excuse is. Again, unless it's out of your control, you are knocked out. You are not aware that totally different

John [00:45:22]: you come up with. Then you're like, oh, shoot, I shouldn't have done that. I really do love this person and I never want to do that again. That was a mistake. I really. I realized. I realized now that I really do love. Okay, so. Yes.

Nicole [00:45:33]: Then tell them, right? That's the only way you can be with somebody. Like, if you do really, if you're like, oh, crap, like, you know, I wasn't thinking about them the way that I should have, and I really made a mistake. And I want to be with them, though. Like, that was something I'll never do again. Again. I'm not saying that people can't move on from these things, but not if. I mean, let me ask you, like, if you proposed to me. Let's say I was that girl, right? And you proposed to me.

John [00:46:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:04]: And I was like, hey, I need to tell you. Like, after we send out the invitations. And I was like, I hooked up with someone and a bachelorette party and I didn't want to tell you because I, like, I love you. It was just. I was drunk and it was dumb and I want to be with you. I don't want to be with anybody else.

John [00:46:28]: I would want to understand the circumstances, right?

Nicole [00:46:32]: But you wouldn't be upset that I met you after we got married for

John [00:46:36]: sure, of course I would be upset at that. But the thing that I would want to understand the most, which I think is what you're getting at, is what to get the information, to understand what the circumstances, which you can only get by telling the story, which, like, is this real? Like, is this really, like a mistake that was made that would never happen again? Like, what was the situation? Was this something where it was like, I wasn't happy with the relationship or like. Because those things I think do matter. Right?

Nicole [00:47:05]: Yeah, but I also think.

John [00:47:06]: But you have to have the. The knowledge. Right. Which involves telling the truth about it.

Nicole [00:47:11]: But at the same time, like, if you're not happy in the relationship, you have to talk about that. Because I also don't think. I know you brought up the Esther Perel thing. I think in the other episode.

John [00:47:24]: Oh, no, this one, I think.

Nicole [00:47:25]: Or was it this one?

John [00:47:25]: She said that unmet needs.

Nicole [00:47:28]: Cause people talk about that a lot.

John [00:47:29]: Betrayal, they can be betrayal, but they can also reveal identity crisis. Unmet needs. And the stories people tell themselves.

Nicole [00:47:35]: Because here's the thing is, like, okay, because you even said, were you unhappy in the relations or something? So like, similar to unmet needs or whatever.

John [00:47:42]: Right, Right.

Nicole [00:47:44]: You have to communicate these things. And even if you communicate them and your needs aren't being met and you're at a point where you want to cheat.

John [00:47:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:55]: You need to leave the person.

John [00:47:59]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:48:00]: Before cheating, like, that's still that person's responsibility. You know what I mean? Like, if my needs aren't being met and I tell you that and we have a conversation, well, I have to tell you that, like, that's my responsibility.

John [00:48:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:12]: And so even if they're still not being met how I would like. And it's enough of a problem where I can't live like this.

John [00:48:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:21]: And I'm. I personally would not be like, I'm gonna go out while in this relationship. But, you know, I have to say to you, hey, like, I understand that we've had these conversations and you've been trying, but I just can't live long term like this. And so, like, I think we need to go our separate ways. Like before just doing it.

John [00:48:47]: You know what I mean?

Nicole [00:48:48]: And it's different. I'm a woman. I'm not a man. A lot of unmet needs are sexual needs from men. And so that's why they do.

John [00:48:55]: Some of them are appreciation. Admiration.

Nicole [00:48:57]: I mean. Yeah, no, that's true.

John [00:48:58]: But I think the point that Esther Perel was trying to make there was that, like, when infidelity happens, it's not always, like, about the other person. Sometimes it's about an identity crisis that the person's having. Sometimes it's about unmet needs that they have that might not even be related to the other person. Or sometimes it might be about, like, a story they're telling themselves. Right. Something that is not related to the other person. So it doesn't make it right by any means, but that it's not a matter of, like, I don't love this person. But I can see the argument where it's like, okay, but it's an unloving thing. Like, you obviously don't love the person enough that, like, you're still putting some. Some amount of your needs above this other person. Right. Like, I think that's above.

Nicole [00:49:47]: Like, again, like, I can't see a scenario where I would do something to hurt you. Regardless if I was having an identity crisis, regardless of if you never told me you loved me again, I would not go behind your back and betray you. I would have a conversation. And if we had to go our separate ways, that's what would happen. Because, again, I don't think people realize that when you go behind someone's back, you have these secrets. You betray somebody, you're hurting yourself. And it's hard to confront somebody and be like, I don't wanna be with you anymore. Especially if that person loves you and you're not there anymore. I get that that's hard. But going and lying and betraying people and hiding things makes it worse for the person you supposedly love and yourself.

John [00:50:49]: Yeah, exactly. You know, I agree.

Nicole [00:50:50]: It makes it worse for everyone.

John [00:50:51]: Yeah. Believe me, I've been through that scenario, so. I know, but I'm just saying.

Nicole [00:50:55]: I'm trying to explain this because again, I think a lot of men think like you're saying, and they don't. They think that they're protecting the person. You know what I mean? But they're not like, they're not just, like, this situation. Like, when do I. When do I say what I did? You should have said it right after you did it. And honestly, you'll have the best response. And now you're hiding it because you don't want the consequences because you know they're getting worse and worse. And that's the thing is, like, that's selfish. It's selfish to keep pushing it because now the consequences are getting worse and worse when you should have just told the person, and now you have to try to hold it in forever. And that's not Gonna happen. Like, something is gonna happen. What's done in the dark comes to light eventually.

John [00:51:44]: Well, I'd say, yeah. I was thinking about, like, actually we know someone where this happened to where, you know, they became an adult or like, a long, like, way later in life, they found out they're adopted.

Nicole [00:51:56]: Yeah.

John [00:51:58]: It's a much bigger blow at 40 than it is at 10.

Nicole [00:52:04]: Right, right. And it probably made the person not want to communicate with their parents for a while. Be like, what the heck? You hid this from me for a long time.

John [00:52:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:19]: Trust me, I've heard that story more than once. The same thing happening.

John [00:52:23]: And it's hard because the consequences seem harder to the parent. Right. To further down the line, to be honest. But then it's.

Nicole [00:52:31]: Then it's even worse then you might lose relationship with your child because you hid something so important from them about themselves, and they didn't get to make the choice. They didn't get to have that autonomy.

John [00:52:44]: Right. In their life.

Nicole [00:52:46]: You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. And it's the same sort of thing.

John [00:52:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:50]: So.

John [00:52:51]: All right, well, I think that's. That's it. Let me see if there's anything else we had on the.

Nicole [00:52:56]: I think we covered it.

John [00:52:57]: I think we covered it pretty good. Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:01]: Hopefully it makes more sense, especially to men. Like I said, I feel like. Because they do think, like you're saying, like, I want to protect them, but.

John [00:53:07]: Because I've thought that way before. Right. It's like. But it's not the way.

Nicole [00:53:12]: Right. Because we've had similar conversations. I'm like, no, tell me the truth. Like, I am going to be less upset if you tell me the truth than if you hide something from me.

John [00:53:21]: And then also, I think the one last thing we didn't cover is if they find out themselves, it's always worse. Right. So it's like you're better off even if you've already sent out the invitations for you to tell them. Right. Because if they find out and you haven't told them, it's going to be a hundred times worse.

Nicole [00:53:42]: You know why?

John [00:53:44]: Because then they think that you would never have told them. Right.

Nicole [00:53:47]: And then they can't trust you. They really can't trust you. You're the one person they're supposed to trust. You're the one person that they're about to start their life with.

John [00:53:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:56]: And you can't even tell them the truth.

John [00:53:58]: Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:00]: That's. That's just setting fire to your relationship.

John [00:54:04]: Yep. I agree.

Nicole [00:54:06]: So don't do it. Don't do any of the bad things.

John [00:54:10]: All right, that's it for. For this week. If you have a question for us, email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com if you send us a confession, we will have to share it.

Nicole [00:54:22]: But we won't say your name.

John [00:54:24]: Yeah, no, but I'm saying we'll have to. We'll have to contact your wife and let her know, so. Your fiance.

Nicole [00:54:29]: Oh, yeah. If it's that, we will.

John [00:54:31]: We will. You will bind us to that obligation because we don't want to be excommunicated from your life.

Nicole [00:54:35]: We'll spill the beans here.

John [00:54:37]: We're your friends, so. And check out our website@betterthanperfectpod.com and we'll see you next week.