Nicole [00:00:00]: You're a very smart, intelligent man. You got on this podcast and helped people, and you did give good advice, but you still weren't following it yourself.

John [00:00:08]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:00:09]: And so if you are capable of falling into these things. I know other men are. By being like, oh, well, the woman just doesn't care about how I feel. That is a victim mindset. Don't act like you're one of the rare people that are doing everything right, because, let's be real, you're probably not. Because it's probably like 2% of men if that.

John [00:00:28]: Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the better than Perfect podcast, where two people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship every week. Oh. Where every week.

Nicole [00:00:54]: Forgot that part.

John [00:00:55]: I forgot. Yeah. Every week we share how two people growing, two people helping each other grow

Nicole [00:01:02]: equals one better than perfect relationship. It threw you off because last week it was just you and you were like two people.

John [00:01:11]: I'm just by myself, but,

Nicole [00:01:16]: yeah, so, I mean, I'm back.

John [00:01:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:19]: But we're still.

John [00:01:20]: A lot of people are probably surprised to see you.

Nicole [00:01:22]: Yeah, I mean, I'm. When I think about it, I mean, hearing the things that you said, like, you said, it is. It's been a lot, and we're still working through things. It's just going to take time. Takes time to rebuild trust and things like that. But John, I will say, has shown up in his integrity since all the stuff went down, and I'm just hoping that that will just be his new normal. I know what he's capable of. I always have. And I do think at times, talking about the things in the past that I've been kind of blinded maybe by his potential rather than how he's shown up and, you know, especially, like you said, the arguments and things like that. But we're married, and you deserve the chance to be that version of yourself that I know you want to be and I know you can be. And hopefully you'll just continue down that path. I think that you will, based on how you've shown up and.

John [00:02:30]: Yeah, I will.

Nicole [00:02:32]: That we won't ever have to stop the podcast because you done messed up one too many times.

John [00:02:37]: Right. Or, like, have the.

Nicole [00:02:39]: But you are. You are at the last. This is the last chance, which I know. You know, but.

John [00:02:45]: Yeah, no, I. I know. Like, I mean, I. I've learned the things that I needed to learn. They were hard lessons.

Nicole [00:02:54]: I didn't know you had listened to your wife before.

John [00:02:57]: Sometimes you had.

Nicole [00:02:57]: She told you all these things.

John [00:02:59]: I'm just sorry that I was hurting you so much that I didn't realize in the conversations that we were having. And the way I was doing, like, now that I see the way it's been a month, basically, and I have shown up in a different way now that I see how to operate, it makes it very clear how I was not operating. You know, if that makes it like. It makes it very clear, like, how the things that I was doing in the past and the way I was speaking in the past must have been so hurtful.

Nicole [00:03:33]: Yeah, right.

John [00:03:35]: Because I see how different it is now when you're doing it the right way.

Nicole [00:03:40]: Right, right.

John [00:03:41]: And so that is why I'm very committed to that. Because now that I've seen that, I can't unsee,

Nicole [00:03:50]: you know, and I told you when all this, like, went down. And I think it's important, and I know you gave men and women too, if they're doing these things, really good advice on the last episode. But really the best advice to live in your integrity is to treat people the way you want to be treated. And I don't feel like men specifically just because they don't really think very far ahead, which is why I'm singling them out. I don't think they think about the repercussions of the things that they're doing long term. And it's not acceptable to just accept that and have that be an excuse for why they are negligent in preparing for those things.

John [00:04:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:44]: Because let's be real here and please, I cannot wait to see the comments on this. But, like, what you have come on here and talked about that you have done.

John [00:04:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:00]: If a woman did that, if a man even heard a story of a woman doing that.

John [00:05:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:05]: It would be unacceptable.

John [00:05:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:08]: And so that's the thing is, like, if you are thinking of cheating on a woman or whatever.

John [00:05:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:17]: You need to think about if I did, if this happened to me, if she cheated on me, if she lied to me for this many years, how would that make me feel? And really think about that. Don't think about it from a selfish of like, oh, well, I'd get over it. No, like, really think about if it. As if it actually happened to you. I'm pulling like a Tony Robbins. Like, yeah, cry if you need to, but really, because that will affect your decision moving forward. And you'll be like, okay, I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. But cheating would be really bad to do to somebody. And I really would. I would rather be broken up with than cheated on, for sure. And so I'm going to break up with someone rather than cheat on them.

John [00:06:03]: Well. And what I keep on hearing from, from you, from other women, from, like, the Instagram, you know, from carousels, and, like, it's all showing up in my feed now, is the exact same thing, which is if you just told me we could have worked it out, we could have figured out the things we could have solved together as a team. We could have, right? Instead of you hiding how you're feeling, what you're doing, because what it is. And this is why being emotionally available, I guess that's not even the word, being emotionally vulnerable as a man is so important to a woman's safety, is what I'm discovering is that that's where it begins. Because if I hide from you a struggle that's going on, that is in regards to you in our relationship, and I just bury that, then you didn't have a chance to resolve it. You didn't have a chance to talk about it, to solve it with me. And then I go and do something like text someone or cheat or whatever, whatever us guys do to take care of our problem ourself, you know, whatever just, you know, justification that we have, and then we lie about it and cover it up, and then it's like it comes all the way back to the beginning. Why didn't you just tell me from the very beginning that you're upset with me or that there was something that you needed that you weren't getting, or there was something like. Or that you were hurt by something, and. But then you told me that everything was okay, right? And I believed it, and I trusted you and I felt safe. And then you did something behind my back, and then you lied about it, and then you continue to lie about it, and now how can I ever feel safe again? How can I ever trust you again?

Nicole [00:07:59]: And it just doesn't make sense to do, like you said, like, instead of just talking about the thing initially, why would you choose not to do that? The easier thing, even if it feels hard in the moment, and instead do something that is a complete and utter betrayal of the entire relationship, like cheating or lying or like, in a big way, like those things, you chose to not do the simple, easy thing, right? Because you felt like that was too hard. But then you do something that now

John [00:08:33]: create a super hard.

Nicole [00:08:34]: You jeopardized your whole relationship. Like, you might not even have the relationship anymore.

John [00:08:40]: And now it's going to be a super hard thing to tell the truth on that. Whereas.

Nicole [00:08:43]: Right. It's a lot.

John [00:08:43]: The other thing would have been easier to just talk about. And. And, well, and the other thing that. I think the reason why, what held me back from that and what I learned in the last, you know, few weeks or so was just telling you about how I feel about something.

Nicole [00:08:59]: Right.

John [00:09:00]: And then trusting you. You know what I mean? Like, I was not trusting you. Like, so I was.

Nicole [00:09:06]: That was projection. It was projection.

John [00:09:07]: Oh, yeah. You didn't do anything to.

Nicole [00:09:09]: That was unjust. Worthy. Yeah.

John [00:09:10]: I don't mean to apply that, but.

Nicole [00:09:11]: No, but I've been saying that's the problem when you'.

John [00:09:14]: Trust.

Nicole [00:09:15]: Exactly. When you're not in your integrity, you are skeptical of other people because you know what people are capable of because you know what you have done.

John [00:09:23]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:09:24]: And you think everyone else will do that.

John [00:09:26]: Right. Right.

Nicole [00:09:27]: Which is not the case. Like, yes, sure, a lot of people will do that. A lot of people will lie and cheat or whatever, but there are also a lot of people who won't. And they won't do it because of what it does to them. And that's the conversation that you and I have been having as well, too, is like, I would never cheat on you.

John [00:09:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:47]: I know that for a fact. And you've sat on this podcast at times and been like, well, you know, no one's over the influence. And yes, but also, no, because if someone's in their integrity, they're not gonna be influenced. They might be influenced to maybe not wanna be with you, but if they don't wanna be with you, that doesn't mean that they're gonna cheat on you.

John [00:10:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:11]: They'll just leave you. You know what I mean? Like, so I'm not saying that you're not entirely true, because people can be influenced, even people who think that they can't be influenced.

John [00:10:19]: But. But if you're in your integrity, if

Nicole [00:10:22]: you are not the type of person that would betray someone in that way, that would lie to someone, that would hurt someone in that way.

John [00:10:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:31]: Then you're not going to do it.

John [00:10:32]: Then you're never gonna do it.

Nicole [00:10:33]: You would do the hard thing of having to have a hard conversation and be like, look, I don't wanna be with you anymore, which is still hard.

John [00:10:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:41]: But you wouldn't do the betrayal thing because you know what it would do to someone else. You know how it would break someone else.

John [00:10:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:49]: And you also know what it would do to you and how you feel about yourself.

John [00:10:54]: And here's the connection to this that I discovered in myself, right. Which is connected to the vulnerability is that like, because when you don't consider the other person the inconsideration, which is the selfishness, it's usually because you're in a great deal of pain and your pain overrides, right.

Nicole [00:11:11]: You only care about your pain.

John [00:11:12]: And here's the thing about it. It's like the reason why you're in that deal, great deal of pain is because you're not sharing it, right. So when I go back and I look and I look at my history and I look at when I left you, right. And broke up with you and did you know, multiple times, you know, and like, why did I do it? Well, my rationale just. I was in a great deal of pain. So because I was in so much pain myself, I didn't even think what will leaving Nicole, who we love each other, we are trying to build a life together. What will that do to her? What will it be like for her to be in an apartment that is our apartment by herself, having suddenly sprung this on her and she's going to have to go to sleep at night not knowing are we going to get back together? What is he doing? Where is he at? That didn't even come into my mind, I'm sad to say, because I was in so much pain. Now here's the point that I'm getting to because what I'm saying is that if instead of me holding on to that pain, I would have shared with you, I'm in a lot of pain right now. This is what's going on with me. Then I wouldn't have. Then I would be still in consideration of you, you know what I'm saying? So that's why it's so important to like be actually vulnerable as a man.

Nicole [00:12:34]: Pain you wouldn't feel like you have to deal with it all on your own.

John [00:12:36]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:12:37]: But I'm gonna say two things. One, we had a different topic we were gonna do, but I think that this is.

John [00:12:41]: Yeah, that's what I actually the same thing.

Nicole [00:12:43]: Yeah, but. And two, I still think that that is a male dominated problem.

John [00:12:51]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:12:52]: Because.

John [00:12:52]: Exactly, exactly.

Nicole [00:12:53]: Here's the thing, is that through all of this, what if I told you that I wanted you to not tell your daughter, which hopefully she doesn't watch the other episode. Honestly, I hope she doesn't.

John [00:13:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:11]: Because I don't want her to treat you differently without like, she doesn't know the full Story. And, like, I don't want her to have different feelings towards you because of what you've done to me. And so I have been in the most pain of my entire life and still am looking out for you and her, right?

John [00:13:34]: That's considering people while you're in.

Nicole [00:13:36]: Yeah, right. But see, I do think it's a man.

John [00:13:39]: It is.

Nicole [00:13:39]: It is problem of that. They think their pain is all that matters, right? And then they just steamroll everyone else in their.

John [00:13:47]: That's where reactivity comes from, right? That, like, reacting. It comes from that same thing, from that pain, from. Because when I was being reactive to you, it was because, oh, you hurt me. So now I'm gonna, like, act this way, right? Like, because it's so great, right? But everything is hurting me now at that point, right? Like, so. But the thing is. But you're right that it's a male problem.

Nicole [00:14:11]: Well, women do it too. Don't get me wrong. Like, some women allow their hurt to also, like.

John [00:14:16]: But, you know, but this, like, pattern is a male problem, right? Like, I. Because we got to the cheating thing and we've had this discussion before, and you've been like, well, you know, men are the cheaters. And I'm like, well, women cheat too. And it's like, okay, but no, now I agree with you. Like, in the sense that, like, yes, women do cheat too. But when I look at the pattern and I look at all the things that women are saying and I look at, like, I really examine this, I see that women, like, want to be able to trust and they want safety and they want honesty, right. More than anything else as a foundation of the relationship. Men don't. Obviously, men want that, but it's not as critical to them. And the reason why I say that is because they're not as empathetic to understanding that. Because if you fundamentally understand that as a man that that's what a woman primarily wants, then you'll understand the conditions in which she would cheat. And you would understand the conditions in which you would cheat. And you would understand that. That this type of cheating problem is solely a male problem. And the pattern that we have is that as a man, right, you don't want to appear weak. So when you're in hurting, when you're in pain, you tend to hurt alone. And you don't tell it to your partner. And so maybe you resent them or whatever it is, or you hide it and you cover it up, and then your pain becomes so great, like, you selfishly hold onto your pain. So much that you do actions that you're not considering your partner because you're just thinking about yourself and you're thinking about your pain. Whereas women don't operate that way in general. Yes, some women could. But in general, when a woman's in pain that she doesn't disregard everyone else. And men tend to do that. And so that's why it's very important for men also to not have the victim mindset, because I've had the victim mindset at times. And when you're in the victim mindset, that's why women are so afraid of men that have a victim mindset. Because a victim mindset, man is a dangerous man because he's going to go into his pain and then do shit and lie and whatever and not in that care. He's not going to consider you because his pain is so great to him. If he can't handle his own pain, then he can't, he can't. He could do anything to you.

Nicole [00:16:30]: Right?

John [00:16:31]: And that's, and that's the scary part about it. And that's why like, guys are like. And this also connects because guys like, oh, women don't care about men's emotions. We've talked about it before, right? And there, and there's a little bit of truth to it, but the bigger truth to it is this, is that guys will say when I share.

Nicole [00:16:49]: I think you said that and it wasn't true.

John [00:16:51]: Well, guys will say this specifically, this one I haven't agreed with, but I understand more about it now, which is that when I share my emotions with my woman, she's less attracted to me and she doesn't care. Here's the thing, why it feels that way because you're in the victim mindset, sharing the victim mindset with your woman. You think it's your feelings, but it's not your vulnerable feelings. It's your self defeatist victim mindset. Woe is me, pity me. Which she doesn't respond to positively because it's a threat to her safety. Because she's like, if you're so like down on yourself, you're the victim, then I know that you're not going to care about me and you and you're, and you're a dangerous man now. And that's why women don't act empathetically to a guy being in the victim mindset who thinks he's just sharing his feelings. Whereas what I learned in the last month or so was that there's a way to share your feelings.

Nicole [00:17:56]: Mm.

John [00:17:57]: That's the vulnerable way, that's not accusatory, that's not blaming anyone, that's honest about this, is what's going on for me right now. And that a woman will respond to empathetically, more so than even a man would, more than you even wanted her to, more than you even think you deserve to, because you're doing it in the right way. That's not the victim mindset. That's not. Woe is me. Pity me, like, you know, or it's your fault that I feel this way. It's. This is what I'm owning it. And I'm being brave enough to share this with you so that you don't have to feel like I'm hiding. Cause you know something's already wrong with me. You know something's wrong in the relationship. And me hiding that. Or like victim mindset, revealing it to you in such a way that it's like I'm the victim is a weakness and it's gonna jeopardize your safety.

Nicole [00:18:50]: Right? It's either that, like you just said. Cause I agree, it could be that. I think also, like I just said, like, at times you would say those things to me, but I think that it was a projection. I think that, you know, men might be like, women don't care about my feelings. If you're not listening to her, if you're not appreciating her. And let's think about all these 50, 50 people where the women are doing all this work and the guy is not stepping up. Why is she. If he's not doing it there, you think he's showing up emotionally as well too. And then he's also expecting her to show up for him emotionally. Like, I'm not saying it for a tit for tat thing, but I'm saying that it's incredibly hard when as a man, you're supposed to be the Leader. Whether you're 50, 50 or not, you're supposed to be the man, Right? And you're supposed to be an example, and you're not doing it. And then you're expecting your woman to do it while you're not showing up in all these other ways.

John [00:19:49]: Right?

Nicole [00:19:50]: That's an incredibly hard task. And I was still trying to give that to you. And you still didn't feel like I listened to you, but at the same time, you weren't communicating with me truthfully about all the things that you were going through, or you would hold it all in and then get really reactive when it became too much for you to hold and then spew it everywhere, which I'm sure these men are doing. So I'm not saying that there aren't probably a few rare cases of a man actually showing up correctly and a woman still not caring about his feelings, but I think those are incredibly rare, for sure. And I think that either one or two of the things that we just talked about. Talked about here are what's actually happening. Because you're a very smart, intelligent man. Like you said, you got on this podcast and helped people and you did give good advice, but you still weren't following it yourself.

John [00:20:44]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:20:45]: And so if you are capable of falling into these things. I know other men are.

John [00:20:52]: Yeah, absolutely.

Nicole [00:20:53]: And by being like, oh, well, the woman just doesn't care about how I feel. That is a victim mindset. Like, figure out what's going on.

John [00:21:01]: Right. Why is that the case?

Nicole [00:21:03]: Truthfully, don't act like you're one of the rare people that are doing everything right. Because let's be real, you're probably not. Because it's probably like 2% of men, if that.

John [00:21:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:13]: That are doing it right. So you need to be really honest with yourself and be like, am I coming to her in a way that I'm acting like the victim and I'm feeling like I can't handle life right. When I'm supposed to be the leader, the protector. Like, I hate when men are like, I'm the protector. Like, I protect the house. If a robber. No, the protector. And like, providing safety is not protecting the house from robbers. Because how many robbers come to your house?

John [00:21:42]: Right?

Nicole [00:21:42]: None. It's about the emotional protecting and it's about. And you can be vulnerable, like you said, and come from a place of strength. Yeah, it's a.

John [00:21:52]: It.

Nicole [00:21:52]: Like, it doesn't have to be like, oh, I can't do anything right. Like, I'm just a fuck up. What is she supposed to say to that? You know, like, even if she's like, no, you're not, you're probably gonna be like, no, I am. You know what I mean? And then she doesn't have confidence that you can do what you need to do.

John [00:22:11]: And then it does disgust her, and then she is not attracted, it's not

Nicole [00:22:15]: attractive, because then she feels like she has to be the man. And so that's. It's not discussed. It's that now you've shifted the polarity of the relationship and now you are putting her in a masculine place to have to be like, you need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And then you're like, you don't care about my feelings. But it's like if you came from a vulnerable place like you said, and you were like, hey, like, you know, I just. I feel this way when I talk about my feelings, and it just feels wrong. I feel like you're not going to be attracted to me. She's gonna be like, no, I am attracted to you and I do care about your feelings. It's gonna be a completely different.

John [00:22:52]: Exactly. And I know because we had that conversation because I felt that way and I was like, okay, I have to. Like, these are things I have to shield. And it's like what I didn't separate in my head was I have to not give you my victim mindset thoughts. I need to just get rid of those ones. Like, I can deal with those ones on my own, right? Like, I don't need to share those ones. Those ones are gonna be like, john, stop being stopping a little baby. Like, stop it. You know what I mean? But the actual real feelings, like, oh, this is how I feel about this thing. I mean, we had a couple of discuss where I won't get into the details of them, but where I was like, I told you about something that I thought you were going to actually get upset about, but I just said, this is just how I feel. And then you're like, oh, you were very empathetic and comforting.

Nicole [00:23:43]: And you used to say, I'm not empathetic at all.

John [00:23:45]: And proud of me for sharing that. How I was feeling about the thing. Because I wasn't blaming you about it. I wasn't being a victim about it. I was just being brutally honest about what was going on internally with me, which again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine as a woman, in order to feel truly connected to your partner, you have to feel like you understand what's going on inside them.

Nicole [00:24:12]: Yes.

John [00:24:13]: And it's scary when you don't know what's going on inside them because maybe they are checking out other women. Maybe they're not happy in their relationship. Maybe they are like, thinking about leaving or maybe they are whatever. Like, you don't know. So it's just like, what is this guy gonna do? He's a wild card. Whereas when you feel like you understand what's going on inside of him, you can have the safety and security because you know where, even if he's not in a good place, even if he is questioning the relationship, at least you know it.

Nicole [00:24:40]: Right.

John [00:24:40]: And at least you can like, address it and you can do something about it. Because the worst thing is getting blindsided when you had no control. And that's the thing I was the most guilty of doing to you.

Nicole [00:24:50]: There's a way to say that the truth will set you free.

John [00:24:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:52]: In all the ways the truth will set you free. Even if the truth is not a truth you want to hear, even if it hurts. It gives you the option. It gives you the choice. And so, yeah, like, I think that you can't have a deeply connected relationship. Like, being a man does not mean, like, holding in all your feelings.

John [00:25:21]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:23]: It means that you have to be able to express them in a vulnerable way and so that you don't have all your emotions swept under the rug inside of you. And then you become reactive. Because like you said, a reactive man and a man that's victim mindset is a dangerous man. There is no safety there. No matter what else you're doing. No matter if you're a loving husband all these other times, no matter what. If you get into a mode where you're reactive and your victim mindset to a point where you're, like, debatably unpredictable, no woman will feel comfortable in that. Yeah, for sure. And you're ruining your relationship when you operate that way. No matter if. Most of the time, like you said, we didn't come on here and lie most of the time in our relationship. When things were good, they were really good. But when we had disagreements and you got reactive and things like that and the way you behaved, it was really good. And, you know, so it's not like that completely canceled out all the good parts. No, but it did damage the relationship a lot more. And so you think, like, oh, well, I'm only reactive sometimes, or, you know, sometimes I'm down in the dumps, but, like, I'm allowed to be upset.

John [00:26:41]: But imagine if you had a parent that only sometimes smacked you in the face for no reason at all.

Nicole [00:26:47]: True.

John [00:26:47]: But all the rest of time, they're like, you'd be a little bit, like.

Nicole [00:26:51]: Call that a problem today.

John [00:26:54]: You'd be a little bit, like, all the time. All the time. And that's what I did to you, right? Was Kept you on edge all the time. I didn't intend to. That was not my intention. I wanted to be the best husband as I possibly could. I wanted to do the things right. I was saying the things that I was learning on the camera and doing, but I didn't get that key part of it, which. Which, again, is like. Because I saw, like, being in touch with my emotions and sharing them as

Nicole [00:27:24]: weakness, which a lot of men have that misconception. And. Yeah, what men need to also accept. And again, I'm not saying all women do this perfectly, but there's a reason that men try to project onto women that, oh, they're so emotional when men are the most dangerous, emotional people on the planet.

John [00:27:51]: Well, that's why it all makes sense now why women like to watch serial killer documentaries and true crime to prepare for when, like, all the stories about men killing their families and doing.

Nicole [00:28:03]: Yeah. They want to see the signs. They want to try to stop it before they. Before it happens to them.

John [00:28:08]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:28:09]: That's a real reality because it puts

John [00:28:10]: you in such powerless situation because you don't have the insight into this man and what is he feeling and what is he thinking.

Nicole [00:28:17]: Yeah. I mean, even before, when you would get, like, really reactive and upset in some of our conversations.

John [00:28:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:24]: I would be afraid for you to be alone because I didn't know if you would cheat on me or do something out of spite. Because, like, like you said, like, you were. You were very reactive.

John [00:28:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:38]: And you were unpredictable. And then you would get upset that I would even say something like that. But the way that you behaved made it feel like, well, I don't know what you're gonna. What extent you're gonna go to because you're upset.

John [00:28:52]: And to put it into realistic terms for people to understand, like, there's a big difference between. Let's say you something. You say something to me. Like, let's say you say, I don't know, some. Something that's not nice. Right. Like you're a narcissist or something. Right. I can be like, I can't believe you said that. That hurts me so much. That is. I can't believe you said that. I cannot believe you said that. After all I've done for you, I cannot believe that you would say that. That is so hurtful. Do you realize how hurtful that is?

Nicole [00:29:21]: That was triggering.

John [00:29:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:23]: Not gonna lie.

John [00:29:23]: Or I can be like, wow, that really hurt me that you said that. Like, that hurts that I really feel hurt by that. I don't want to come across that way. It really breaks my heart that you feel that way about me now I'm sharing how I actually feel. Like both of them are sharing your emotions. One of them is going to make you.

Nicole [00:29:51]: One of them. Scary.

John [00:29:52]: One of them is scary. Right. And is going to be like, Put you on edge. That's reactive.

Nicole [00:29:59]: Yeah. The other one you feel like you can't.

John [00:30:00]: The other one is still sharing the emotions. Right. Where now you can have a conversation about that. Right. Like, you can talk about it like, like it's. It's safe that I'm expressing it in that way.

Nicole [00:30:15]: Yeah.

John [00:30:15]: You know what I mean?

Nicole [00:30:16]: Not gonna lie. That was.

John [00:30:17]: That's triggering.

Nicole [00:30:18]: It's very triggering.

John [00:30:19]: No, but that's.

Nicole [00:30:19]: You wouldn't get to that level.

John [00:30:21]: I exaggerated a little bit, but a

Nicole [00:30:24]: lot of those things.

John [00:30:24]: But it was similar. It was similar. That's, that's, that's how I know that. I know what my pattern. You know what I'm saying? Because I know. I can see exactly now from. I can see how I was being right. Not all the time, but when you would hurt me, that's how I would respond. Not I exaggerated a little bit, but sometimes it was close to that, sometimes it had been close to that. Right. And I don't think I'm alone in that.

Nicole [00:30:50]: No, you're not the only man to behave that way.

John [00:30:54]: But. But when you do that, you've eroded trust for maybe three months. It's like everything was good for them. But because of that reaction, how long are you going to be on edge when I. I mean, even me just faking it has put you on edge. Right.

Nicole [00:31:08]: Like my adrenaline is.

John [00:31:10]: Right. Yeah, but like, how long will that now create this effect of, I don't know if this is gonna. What's gonna happen? You know what I mean?

Nicole [00:31:19]: And how long can you live like that? That's also why women get fed up and men are like, well, why did she just leave me? Like, she did not just leave me.

John [00:31:27]: And she told you multiple times.

Nicole [00:31:28]: Women fight so much harder than men try to make people believe that they do.

John [00:31:34]: Yeah. And she told you so many times exactly what the problem was, exactly what was going on. I can't talk to you like you're. You. You respond to me in this way. You don't listen to me.

Nicole [00:31:43]: Right.

John [00:31:44]: You're not, you're not hearing what I'm saying. Like, you're not taking me into account.

Nicole [00:31:48]: Right?

John [00:31:48]: Right. Like you're blaming me for everything. Like it's always my fault. Like, these are all the. If you're hearing those things, public service announcement. Listen to them. They're not just her making up stuff or blaming you.

Nicole [00:32:02]: Right.

John [00:32:02]: It's. It is the truth of her experience. Because that's where I was going wrong as you were telling me all of those things. But I wasn't taking. I wasn't actually like, really taking that Into.

Nicole [00:32:15]: Well, because it was all about you.

John [00:32:17]: Right? It was. It was.

Nicole [00:32:19]: It was for a lot of reasons. But I do want to say, though, that I'm not gonna sit here and act like there aren't abusive women. There are. And I'm not saying that all women are. Correct. Like, if a woman is actually abusing you, that's a lot different. That, you know, you should leave if that's happening, if you're a man in that situation or whatever. But we're trying to talk about minute things that a lot of guys and a lot of good men, actually, good men end up turning themselves into bad men.

John [00:32:56]: Right. And this. And this is why good women. Good women leave.

Nicole [00:33:03]: Right, Right.

John [00:33:04]: We're not talking about abusive. What? You know, if you have a woman that's like. But this is why. If you're like, oh, my woman is good. Like, she's wonderful. She loves me. She's so dedic to me. But then she does this crazy behavior. No, no, no. Because again. And I'm seeing it from the patterns again, looking at my Instagram feed and seeing all the same freaking message that I like, wow, why didn't that show up in my Instagram feed a long time ago? But, like, I'm seeing the exact pattern, and then there's, you know, 5,000 likes on this thing. So, okay, this is the truth. This is why good women leave, because they're saying why they leave. And it's not because of the pool boy. It's not because she got bored. It's not because you lost your job. It's not because, whatever, like, she got some feminist friends. It's because you've made it. You've made her live on edge for such a long time, and she's tried to tell you for such a long time to restore, and you didn't listen. And now she's lost herself. She doesn't know who she is anymore. She doesn't have an identity because she has to just walk on eggshells all the time or is on edge all the. And now she doesn't. She loves you, but she can't live a life where she's not. She's lost her identity.

Nicole [00:34:17]: Yeah.

John [00:34:18]: And that, you know, and I was, unfortunately, as good as our relationship was, I was dangerously close to that.

Nicole [00:34:26]: No, you were. And I told you when you were talking to me about how all these guys were telling you, oh, you should have went to your deathbed and I told you we would have gotten divorced before then.

John [00:34:36]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:34:36]: And it's the sad truth, because it was already getting extreme. You were getting more and more reactive.

John [00:34:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:44]: And you were also getting to the point where you were, like, on the edge of, like, at least threatening divorce for smaller things that you blew up because you were so reactive.

John [00:34:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:59]: And I was gonna take one of those opportunities to leave the situation that I was dealing with, not just for that one instance, but for all that I was dealing with. When you were reactive for living and not having that safety for so long.

John [00:35:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:16]: The more reactive and explosive and the more you threatened to leave, I was going to take that from you. So it doesn't matter if you thought you could go to your deathbed with this lie before, we would have ended before that, because how it was making you live Exactly. Would have destroyed the relationship. And I do agree. I do think we have one of the best relationships. I mean, we come on here and we're airing out all this stuff, and, like, yeah, you know, if you don't trust in us and believe us after this, I can understand. But at the same point, I would love to see everybody just own up to all these things, because I know that everybody has.

John [00:35:57]: I know I'm not alone sort of

Nicole [00:35:59]: bullshit that they've gone through in their relationship that they just don't want people to know so that they can appear like they don't have any problems. But we're here doing it, and, you know, I lost my train of thought a little bit.

John [00:36:14]: But.

Nicole [00:36:14]: But what I'm saying is that, like, even though we do have a good relationship, you being that reactive, victim, mindset, selfish man that you were, because you were living out of your integrity would have ruined our relationship. It would have pushed me to a point where, like, you said, I love you. I love you more than anything. I don't want to be with anybody else. Even when you told me, like, that you lied and you cheated on me and things, and we were dangerously close to actually getting a divorce. I did not lie to you when I said that you are the only man that I want to be with if we ever got a divorce, I would not want to be with another man ever. Because in my mind, if you don't get this, if you don't understand this, no man will. And I firmly believe that because I know you're a good man. I know what you're capable of. I know where your heart is. And if you can't understand these things, if you can't live in your integrity, then I don't believe any man can. And that's the truth. And so, like, I could love you and have to leave you, it wouldn't be because I want to leave you. It'd be because you continuously don't show up as the man that you need to show up as. And I do think the key part of this is living in your integrity for everyone. Because you wouldn't have even cheated either of the times you have if you lived in your integrity.

John [00:37:38]: For sure. Yeah, 100%.

Nicole [00:37:40]: And that's the most important. And it's what not only helps you treat other people well, it's what, what helps you treat yourself well.

John [00:37:49]: And living in your integrity is being emotionally honest.

Nicole [00:37:52]: Yes.

John [00:37:52]: As well. Right?

Nicole [00:37:53]: Honesty.

John [00:37:54]: Because again, because like you said, I wouldn't have cheated either of those scenarios if I was emotional. Because if I was feeling like even being emotionally honest to be like, well, maybe I want to be free. Maybe I don't want to be tied to anyone. But some time to be not in a relationship. That's. That's a hard thing to say to someone in a relationship. Yeah, but it's emotionally honest if you feel that way, like, it doesn't mean that you're going that, but it's like, but let's have that discussion.

Nicole [00:38:26]: Right?

John [00:38:26]: And then maybe at the end of the discussion you decide to break up. But. Or maybe at the end of the discussion, like your partner talks to you and you actually resolve that and realize that you do want to be in that relationship. You know what I'm saying? But it gives me that.

Nicole [00:38:39]: Because maybe you wanted to run a race, weren't run away from the relationship because you had all this built up stuff that you never aired out.

John [00:38:46]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:38:46]: And then now that you air it out and you get actual understanding and clarity, that you realize that that was actually making you not want to be with this person rather than you actually not wanting to be with who that person is.

John [00:38:58]: The brave thing is to say I want to be with other people.

Nicole [00:39:01]: Right.

John [00:39:02]: Even though that seems like the stupid thing to say. It's the brave thing to say. Because if you don't, if you, if you really feel that and you don't say that, then it cannot be resolved. And then you're going to resolve it in your own way.

Nicole [00:39:16]: Right. And you're giving the person the choice.

John [00:39:19]: Right. And that's not in your integrity. Like it's just be honest about the relationship. Where are we at? What are, what am I thinking? What I am I feeling? Doesn't have to say every single thought that comes into your head.

Nicole [00:39:28]: Right.

John [00:39:28]: But you have to be in your integrity in like this is where I'm at right now.

Nicole [00:39:34]: Right. You know, and it gives you self confidence and self esteem. And like, you admitted that there have been points in your life where you have had low self confidence or low self esteem. That's why you got validation from women, for sure. And that's what made you feel good about yourself.

John [00:39:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:51]: And I think more men need to be honest about that. And I think more men need to realize that having integrity gives you way more self confidence and self esteem and permanent changes there than any thousands of women can.

John [00:40:10]: Right. And. And that. And that's why, like, I'm able to do the podcast from last week and say the things is because now that I'm living in my integrity, I don't have anything to hide.

Nicole [00:40:21]: Mm.

John [00:40:22]: You know what I'm saying? Like, when you have something to hide, then you can't talk about the stuff.

Nicole [00:40:27]: Well. Because your ego's so fragile. Because your ego knows what you've done. Your ego knows that you have shame and bad things.

John [00:40:34]: And that. And that's what makes you reactive, too. Because, like, I would be reactive to so many little things that you would say that would bruise my ego because I'm not living in my integrity. But if I'm living my integrity and I'm like, I know. I know who the fuck I am, because I show up every day, I'm doing exactly what I say is what I do. My. I'm speaking the truth, then little things that you say, they're gonna bounce off of me.

Nicole [00:40:58]: Because you know who you are.

John [00:41:00]: Exactly. But when you don't. When you don't know who you are and you're not sure about yourself and then someone else attacks you, you perceive it as an attack. Then you got to defend all those things. Then all those things.

Nicole [00:41:11]: You know why you feel that way? Because you do feel like you're a good person. And you know you're a good person. And you know you've done good things.

John [00:41:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:18]: But you also know that you. You're holding on to a lie. You also know you're doing bad things.

John [00:41:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:23]: That's why you don't know who you are.

John [00:41:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:26]: Because it's like the angel and the devil on your shoulder. And, like, yes, we all have, like, bad parts of ourselves, but this is different. When you're actively still lying and you know you've done something very, very bad that would really hurt someone.

John [00:41:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:41]: And you're holding all that actively.

John [00:41:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:45]: While you're also actively showing up for people and being a good husband and loving People. You don't know who you are. You don't know, am I this bad thing that I did? Because I know I did it, and I know I'm capable of doing it. So there is this part of me that does feel like it's this.

John [00:42:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:42:00]: But I'm also this. Because I do love people, and I do want to do these things. That's why you don't know who you are.

John [00:42:07]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:42:08]: Whereas if you have integrity, you never would have even done the thing that you would have to lie about. And that's the thing is, like, you have to stop it from the very beginning. You have to not even do things that you want to cover up.

John [00:42:25]: Right, right. Exactly.

Nicole [00:42:26]: And if you do do something that's not great because everybody's gonna make a mistake. I'm not saying that people aren't gonna make mistakes. You have to own up to that right away. Be like, oh, I'm so sorry that, you know, I hurt you by doing that. Like, own up to the thing. Or be like, I forgot your dry cleaning. I was gonna pick up. I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to do that. You know, instead of being like, well, it's your fault, because why'd you take your dry cleaning there? You know what I mean? Like, there's just no excuse.

John [00:42:54]: It's the transparency. Because if you're living a life of integrity, of transparency, then you're. You. You're not going to do the behaviors that you would have to be transparent. It's like, right when I've talked to guys about overcoming porn addiction. There's a real simple solution to overcoming porn addiction. You know what it is?

Nicole [00:43:08]: Take the door off.

John [00:43:09]: Take the door. Because if you don't have a door to shut, you get. You know, you don't have the. Like, you know, you're living in the bathroom, though. Oh, yeah. I mean, if you have glass walls, like the bathroom. Yeah. If you. If you create environments where you. Where what you're doing is transparent, then you can't do the wrong thing. Right, Right. That's why group.

Nicole [00:43:29]: Yes.

John [00:43:29]: Classes.

Nicole [00:43:29]: I know, but you said all this.

John [00:43:31]: I know. Before. Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:33]: And then we're still living a different way.

John [00:43:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:36]: Like, I know that you're not doing that now, but.

John [00:43:39]: But if you're choosing. Choosing transparency, if you're choosing integrity, then,

Nicole [00:43:45]: well, that's why it has to be like, the integrity. Because, you know, you say, like, live your life in public or whatever. I'm saying do this for you.

John [00:43:53]: Right, Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:55]: Like, you told Me a story. When we started talking about a lot of this after it happened, and you talked about the story about your dad.

John [00:44:05]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:44:06]: Saying he wouldn't take a bribe.

John [00:44:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:09]: And you didn't believe him. And I was like, you don't understand integrity. Like, you didn't understand integrity then.

John [00:44:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:17]: That was your dad living in his integrity.

John [00:44:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:20]: That's like when we would go to the amusement parks. I mean, now, no roller coasters. After all the craziness. That's so sad and tragic. But when you'd be like, well, would you do it for a million dollars? And I'd be like, no. And like, you probably didn't believe me. But the thing is, like, you can't buy.

John [00:44:39]: Right. You don't want to be bought.

Nicole [00:44:40]: My choices.

John [00:44:41]: Right, Exactly. That's the integrity choice is to not allow money to influence the choices.

Nicole [00:44:47]: Right.

John [00:44:48]: These kind of choices that you've made.

Nicole [00:44:50]: Right. Or anything. Like, I'm not gonna be. Again with the cheating that doesn't involve money. But I'm like, I'm not going to do that to someone else. I've had it done to me now multiple times. I would never do that to someone else. Even if I hated somebody, I wouldn't do that to someone else.

John [00:45:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:09]: Because I don't want it done to me. So I'm not gonna do it.

John [00:45:11]: You know? And I think it's worth saying what the definition of integrity is, which is living like the person that you pretend to be.

Nicole [00:45:19]: Like you pretend to be.

John [00:45:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:21]: I view it as treat others the way you want to be treated. And that has never failed me. I. I continuously treat people the way I want to be treated, and even if they don't show up for me in the same way, it can hurt, but it doesn't matter because it's who I am and I'm still gonna do it anyway.

John [00:45:39]: Yeah. Yeah. I would say, like, if you describe yourself in a certain way, then that's how you are. Right. Like, you actually are that, you know.

Nicole [00:45:47]: Yeah. I mean, that can be your definition. I feel like what works for me is treat others the way you want to be treated.

John [00:45:52]: Fair.

Nicole [00:45:53]: So. But hopefully we've explained a lot. I mean.

John [00:46:00]: Yeah, no, I think it's.

Nicole [00:46:02]: I think, again, I'm not gonna lie to you. I've been obviously hurt and angry, and I've not only been hurt and angry at John, but at men in general.

John [00:46:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:16]: And I am trying to harness that in a productive way. I don't feel like I've attacked men on this episode or in general, even though there's been some comments on some of our reels that I'm like, don't do it, Nicole, don't do it.

John [00:46:37]: But I think it is important to identify that this is a problem that men have. Women have their own problems. It's fine.

Nicole [00:46:44]: But they have to own up to it.

John [00:46:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:47]: And I don't think men own up to a lot of things.

John [00:46:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:50]: Because of their ego a lot of the time.

John [00:46:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:53]: They think it defines them when in reality.

John [00:46:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:57]: If they lived in their integrity and that defined them, they'd feel like the best man in the world.

John [00:47:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:05]: And that's what doesn't make sense to me is so men live out of their integrity.

John [00:47:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:10]: And they try to compensate by protecting their ego in so many messed up ways. Whereas if they just lived in their integrity and I guess like you said, like, actually lived like the person that they are portraying themselves to be or want to be.

John [00:47:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:28]: Then they would actually get that. But instead they go the, like, completely wrong direction.

John [00:47:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:35]: Until they reach rock bottom. And then maybe they build themselves up to be the man they've actually.

John [00:47:41]: And there's some freedom in realizing that you're a piece of shit because then you got nothing to hold up, to, hide to, like to.

Nicole [00:47:47]: Yeah, but sometimes people that feel that way just continue to be a piece of shit.

John [00:47:51]: Yeah, but what I'm saying is that, like, we're all pieces of shit, right? Like, you know, like, we're all like,

Nicole [00:47:56]: yeah, but you can be a better piece of shit.

John [00:47:58]: Yeah. Yeah. But when you can, the ego is what's saying. You're not a piece of shit. Right. But in order to get rid of the ego, you gotta be like, no, I am a piece of shit. Like, okay, I am a fuck up, just like all of us. But that's fine because then there's nothing to protect because then the transparency, then the integrity can exist. But it can't exist as long as you're holding on to this, like, view of yourself that's higher than what it is.

Nicole [00:48:26]: Which I agree. But like, we have to be real here. Some people fuck up more than others, and that doesn't excuse the things that they do and it doesn't excuse the harm that they cause.

John [00:48:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:42]: And it's not fair to the people who aren't fucking up to act like they're on the same level as the people who are fucking up all the time.

John [00:48:52]: We're all on the same level. We're all on the same level. Like, we're all on the same level in the sense that like, none of us is perfect. None of us is.

Nicole [00:49:01]: I have never said none of us are perfect. But there is a difference between someone who's actively trying to be the best version of themselves and are showing up because they do have integrity and they do say what they're gonna do versus people who don't have integrity. And they act all sorts of crazy ways. They're not the same. Yes, we are all imperfect. We will never be perfect. And I'm not saying that that one is better than the other.

John [00:49:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:26]: But one is doing better than the

John [00:49:28]: other, that's for sure.

Nicole [00:49:29]: And that there is a difference. Because to sit here and act like there is no difference gives these people no motivation to be over here. And that's part of the problem today. I do believe that. Yeah, I do believe that everybody has gotten so messed up that they're like, well, everybody's doing crazy now.

John [00:49:49]: Oh, I see what you're just saying.

Nicole [00:49:50]: So why do I need to be better? You be better for yourself.

John [00:49:53]: For yourself. Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:55]: Because it is better to do better

John [00:49:57]: because it's your standard. There's no reward for it. But there's no.

Nicole [00:50:00]: There is a reward. You feel better about yourself. You have confidence.

John [00:50:04]: There's no external reward for yourself.

Nicole [00:50:05]: You have love for yourself.

John [00:50:06]: Yeah, there's no external reward for it.

Nicole [00:50:10]: So many people hate themselves that loving yourself is a reward.

John [00:50:15]: That is the best reward.

Nicole [00:50:17]: Right. And you should know.

John [00:50:18]: Yeah, I do know. Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:21]: So that's what I'm saying. Like I'm not gonna sit here and act like people that are showing up and doing what they say they're gonna do and living in their integrity are the exact same playing field as these people over here that are playing in everybody's face. Cuz they're not.

John [00:50:34]: No, no.

Nicole [00:50:36]: But these people should want to be over here for themselves.

John [00:50:40]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:50:41]: And that's how the world actually becomes a better world.

John [00:50:44]: Only way you're gonna be over there.

Nicole [00:50:46]: That's true.

John [00:50:47]: Because that's the only motivation that is going to make sense. Because it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't benefit you externally.

Nicole [00:50:56]: Why does, why does that matter? Because that's what do men only care about external validation or like people care

John [00:51:02]: about not just validation, just like reward. Right. You know, why would you do something like, okay, but if you want to,

Nicole [00:51:09]: like, do men not view loving yourself as a reward?

John [00:51:12]: Yeah, but look at this. Will you make more money being dishonest?

Nicole [00:51:18]: Yeah, but it will cost you your soul.

John [00:51:20]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:51:21]: Which men Will give away. They're more likely to give that away.

John [00:51:25]: It's not worth the price. But, like, when you look at it from what is the rewards that you can get externally, being dishonest, being out of your integrity you can mop up, but when you look at, like, how will you sleep at night and how do you feel about yourself? That's the trade off. And that's the better thing to have is to be able to sleep good at night, to be able to feel proud of yourself, to be able to live the life that you want to live rather than to get the things of the world.

Nicole [00:51:57]: Yeah. Here's the thing that I'll. This is my last thing I'm gonna say is that you can't take any of that external.

John [00:52:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:06]: You can't take it with you.

John [00:52:07]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:08]: Only thing we're taking with us is the lessons we've learned here and how we've shown up.

John [00:52:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:13]: And that's why integrity matters.

John [00:52:15]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:52:16]: And so do you want to leave here with nothing or with something.

John [00:52:21]: Yeah. Or negative. Negative.

Nicole [00:52:24]: Or going backwards.

John [00:52:25]: Yeah. Regrets.

Nicole [00:52:27]: If you're only viewing the world as external things, you're in for a rude awakening when you get thrown in that grave because you can't take any of it with you. But what you can take with you is how you show up in the person that you are. And you're right. We will never be perfect.

John [00:52:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:44]: But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to be the best that you can be.

John [00:52:49]: 100%. I agree.

Nicole [00:52:51]: So.

John [00:52:53]: All right. Should we wrap it?

Nicole [00:52:55]: Yep.

John [00:52:55]: All right. What do we have going on this? Just kidding. A lot. A lot. All right. We have a.

Nicole [00:53:08]: We have a few questions.

John [00:53:10]: Yeah, we have a few. I guess we'll do that the next episode, right?

Nicole [00:53:12]: Yeah, we'll do that. I'm sorry, we got some questions.

John [00:53:16]: No, this is a good episode. We'll have to title it why Men Suck or something.

Nicole [00:53:22]: Yeah, I like that. I like that title, Men Are Trash the Musical.

John [00:53:30]: But you can subscribe to us at. Go to the website betterthanperfectpod.com you can go to our Instagram and submit a question there as well. That's been.

Nicole [00:53:40]: Yeah. Or email us at Better Than Perfect Podcast. Gmail.

John [00:53:45]: Yep, that's it. All right, we'll see you next week.

Nicole [00:53:48]: Bye.

John [00:00:00]: Withholding the truth from your partner is selfish. Like cheated. Some people will think it's not selfish because they're not hurting that person. I don't believe that you will eventually hurt them. I haven't rehearsed this. Being that I want this to be authentic, I don't want to, like, try to manage my image. I've been lying. It's not the first time. I owe an apology, obviously to Nicole. Beyond the perfect we discovered through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect. Perfect we stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the better than perfect podcast, where we're two people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. So, yeah, so it's just me on the podcast this week. Nicole's not here because this is an important episode. I haven't rehearsed this, so I haven't even thought about it for a reason. Being that I want this to be authentic, I don't want to try to manage my image here. I'll just start off by just saying what this is about. I've been lying. It's not the first time that this has happened, and I'll give you the details of that. But, you know, I owe an apology, obviously, to Nicole, my wife. You know, I owe an apology to all of you, to, you know, pretty much when you lie, it pretty much affects everybody in your life because you lie to. To everyone. And this isn't the first time, you know, that I've been in this. So I'll just start with the story of what happened and what. And then I will kind of share about, kind of my thoughts and what I've learned from that. But. So four and a half years ago, approximately when Nicole and I moved back to San Diego, when I moved back to San Diego. First, if you know the history of our relationship, what had happened, just to give a quick recap so that it makes sense. When I met Nicole, I had been cheating on my ex wife. At the time, Nicole was not aware of that. She had no part in that. She had. I had lied to her. You know, that was the lifestyle that I was living. Not proud of it. I won't make excuses for it. It was wrong. It's always wrong to not exit a relationship, instead to do the cowardly thing and cheat and lie. Regardless of that, I did meet Nicole, did fall in love with her. And to make the story a little bit shorter, we, you know, I told her the truth about being married and having a child. And, you know, she was still obviously not happy. About that, but, you know, was accepting enough to feel like, okay, there's no more of this, no more cheating, no more lying. And we got together and I moved to Florida. And during that time period, I was, you know, I had a lot of guilt and shame around what I had done. I made more mistakes. I left Nicole. I broke up with her. I left. When I did leave her, I lied about the reality, like why I was leaving or like what, what was going to happen when I went to San Diego. And we get. We ended up being sort of back together during that time. And I was, I wasn't honest. Like I was shutting her out. I was not, I was not treating her with consideration. I was being selfish after that. And during that time, what I did was I went back to propose to my ex wife. As crazy as that sounds, that's what I did. Not proud of it again, I could give you my reasons for it. I was overcome with a lot of guilt and shame. I wanted to. Felt like I could restore my family. There was a lot of. But it was. The big point of it was that it was deceptive. It was a lie. It was wrong to do to Nicole. It was not considerate of her. It was selfish, right. It was cowardly because I should have just told her what my real intentions were, like what I was actually doing. It was, you know, and I didn't tell her that when I came back. I lied about that, about what I had done. I wanted to be back with her, right. And then in, I think it was like December of that same year, I left again. I broke up with her again. I wanted to go to San Diego to restore things with my daughter because I left my daughter. I felt guilty about that. I also was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. I wasn't sure. I was in a very bad state of depression. But. But yeah, so that was another like selfish thing. Instead of working through things with Nicole and figuring them out and whatever, I just popped that on her, sprung that on her after had having done it the first time. And then, you know, I'm not painting a very good picture of why she should even be with me still. But this is the full truth, right? So. And you deserve that and she deserves for me to say all this. So after that happened, that's what brings us to San Diego in the four and a half years ago time period. So during that time when I was in San Diego, I. Well, I had broken up with Nicole. We got back together about three days later. I was in San Diego. She was in Florida. But we were technically. Not technically, we were together. We were together during that time. I got on dating apps and I slept with four women during that time period. Did not tell Nicole about that. Not only did I not tell her about that, but I had turned on my. When we had broken up that time, I had disabled her access to my Tesla, which had the location of the Tesla, but I had re enabled that access because we were getting back together and she was potentially going to move to San Diego. We were figuring that out one night when I went to go pick up a woman that I had met on a dating app who was in Mexico at the border, and I was picking her up there. Nicole saw on the Tesla app my location that I was driving to Mexico at that time. She started calling me, texting me, and I ignored the calls because I had a woman in the car with me. And then when I got back to the apartment, I called her up and I proceeded to turn it on her. I lied. I told her that some stupid, crazy story about a valet at the apartment taking my car for a joyride. I got mad at her for checking on my location. I just was completely trash in my behavior and just horrible, horrible that I lied to her at that time in the way that I lied to her and the way that I was treating her when she. When she had caught me and I was lying and then treating her poorly while I was lying to her after that. The next morning, I had called her up and I knew that I didn't want to ever be with anyone else again. I was very confused at the time with a lot of stuff and the drama of going through the divorce and whether I wanted to be single. And the big thing there was that I should have just told her that I wanted to figure things out. I should have just been upfront and honest with her. But anyway, I called her. She ended up moving to San Diego. And I basically committed to myself at that point that I was going to take that what had happened during that time. I was in San Diego by myself to my grave, because. And this was my rationale, as stupid as it is, which I will talk about to explain to guys who need to hear this message. That's also part of the reason why I'm doing this, how stupid that rationale is and how hurtful it is. But my rationale at that point was that, well, I know that I love Nicole and I want to be with her. I don't want to be with anyone else. I'm going through all this turmoil in my life, but I know that. That. That there's no one that like. Like it. I have this clarity that I know that this is who I want to be with. And because of that, there's no reason to tell her this and ruin the relationship and hurt her about this because it's done with and it'll never happen again. And I know it'll never happen again because I have no desire for this to ever happen again. That was my rationale, not an excuse. Because there is no excuse. There is no excuse for not being honest. I have no excuse for myself. But I only say this rationale so that the guys that are watching this, you can understand that you might have a similar rationale at some point in your life about telling a lie. And it is not. It's not correct. I'll talk about. Well, I might as well talk about why it's not correct, and then I'll tell you the rest of the story. But the reason why that's not correct is because the best way that I can describe this is that when you're lying to someone that you supposedly love, it's like hoisting a net with a bunch of bricks over their head. And every day that goes by that you continue in that lie and don't tell them the truth, you're putting another brick into that net. And yes, maybe your hope is that that net will never fall and those bricks won't fall on their head. But that's a pipe dream. That's a ridiculous way of thinking. Because if you love someone, why would you put them in that jeopardy? Why would you suspend those bricks above their head? Why would you add more bricks every single day and making it worse when it does fall? Because I think in the man's head sometimes. Because I know. Because in my head I thought, oh, well, over time it'll be less, right? Because, oh, this happened a long time ago. No, no, no. Over time it's worse. Over time it's another brick. It's worse. To find out about something four and a half years later is way worse than to find about it that night or that day or a week later or a year later, the longer the time. And that's something that I was completely stupid about. I did not understand at all. Like, it makes perfectly clear sense to me now. But I'm saying this so that maybe I can benefit other men who would make the same mistakes that I've made. And I've made a lot of mistakes in my life, and I can tell you that Holding a pile of bricks over someone's head, knowing that someday it could likely fall is a selfish thing to do. It's a cowardly thing to do. What I did was selfish and cowardly because I was trying to protect myself, because I didn't. My fear fear was losing Nicole, which was a selfish fear. I rationalized and justified it as that. I can't tell her because I could never tell her, because I don't ever want to lose her. But when you look at my real motivations for that, that is a selfish motivation because she deserved the right to know and to make her own choice about the relationship, and I deprived her of that. Not just that one time. That's why I went all the way back into the past, but every single time, every single time that I lied, every single time that I didn't disclose the truth when I left the first time, when I didn't tell her that I had proposed to my ex wife, re. Proposed to my ex wife, as embarrassing as that is, anytime that I had kept information from her, I deprived her of the ability to make a decision about her life, while I had the ability to make clear decisions about my life and my future, which is a totally selfish and cowardly thing to do instead of actually facing the truth. So, yes. So that is what happened. And what happened recently, I'm also not proud to say, is that I would like to be here today to be able to say that I volunteered this information to her. That's not what happened either. Instead, what happened was that about a month ago or so, Nicole had texted me, and she had said that she didn't feel good about something and she wanted to talk about it, and. And we got on a phone call, and she said that. She said she kept on thinking about that night where I told her that the valet had. Had taken the Tesla for a joyride and did that. Is that really what happened? And again, not proud to admit this at first, but I still, even at that point, lie. I mean, this was what I thought I was gonna take to my grave, but I lied to her at the beginning of that conversation and tried to, you know, ask her, like, you know, basically try to avoid it, trying to, you know. But the one thing that I will say that, you know, that I did do is that at that point on that conversation, I did come to a crossing point in my life, a crossroads in my life, where I did start to realize I'm like, am I going to continue to lie to this woman who has been nothing but great to me, who has loved me, forgiven me many times in my life, has taken care of my daughter like her own, has given everything to me and trusted me again. Am I going to lie to her face yet again when she's asking me this? And. And I don't know how I actually had the strength to be able to do it, because it was the scariest thing that I had ever done in my life. But I did tell her the truth at that point. And. And I knew in that moment that the likely outcome would be that I would lose her. After all that I had done, after all the lies, after all the leaving her and all that, and, and now having cheated on her, even it was in the past. And so. But the thing for me is that what I did realize in that moment is that that's. I wasn't really loving her as much as I wanted to be loving her. I wasn't really loving her when I was lying to her, when I had secret from her, when I had done this in the past. I tried to live my life as a different person and change my life, but I couldn't because I wasn't living in my integrity. And so to me, in that moment, I had the moment of clarity to realize that rather than hurt someone, put more bricks over someone's head that I profess to love and selfishly not lose them, it would be better to lose the person from your life, but having done the right thing by them, at least at this point. It should have been done a long time ago, but it should have been done at least at this point in time. So I did make that decision. And there's a lot of repercussions from that decision. I'm glad I made that decision. I would not. You know, I did talk to some guys afterwards and they were like, no, that was a stupid decision. You should have taken it to the grave. You should have made up a different story. And I tell you this because I want you to. Like, if you're a guy listening to me, I mean, if you're a woman, you already know this and you're like, duh. But I know how guys think because I've been coaching guys for a long time, and I am one and I have made this mistake. But, like, it's not right. It doesn't matter how many people say it, how many guys think that it's right to, like, you're protecting, you know, you're not protecting someone, you're putting bricks over their head that are going to eventually fall on their head. Can you imagine? You know, like, again, I didn't think about this, but can you imagine if I would have held this secret for 20 years and then on my deathbed or whatever? Hopefully my Deathbed isn't in 20 years, but you know that I would have confessed this. Or imagine if it was on my deathbed. Maybe I held it for 40 years or whatever, and I'm 90 something years old, and on my deathbed I tell Nicole, by the way, there's something I need to get off my chest before I die. And then her whole fucking life is a lie. Can you imagine how many bricks that would be? You know what I mean? Like, four and a half years is way too many. Way too many. But I only say this because I didn't think that way. I didn't think about those things. And that's in no way to justify my actions, to be like, oh, you're not such a bad guy. No, I am a bad guy. I did bad things. But I'm just telling you my rationale so that you, if you're listening and you have this rationale, you can see how wrong this is and how stupid this is. Not in any way to justify my actions. They don't make sense. They are inconsiderate. They are selfish. Regardless of what I had, if I have wrong thoughts in my head, it does not make my actions any less selfish or any less cowardly or wrong. But people will say that and people will think that, and guys will think that. And I don't know, I mean, I'm sure some women might think that too, but I know how guys think, and that's how I thought. And a lot of guys I talked to thought the same way. I guess what I'm saying here is that it's never the right choice. Facing the truth, facing the consequences of your actions is the right choice. I am glad that I finally did make that choice. I wish, like I said, that I had made the choice on my own rather than being asked about it. But I am glad that at least when confronted about it this time that I did, I could actually say in that moment that I do love Nicole. I couldn't say it before then, even though I want that to be true. It's not loving someone when you're stabbing them in the back. It's not loving someone when you're keeping something from them that is very critical to them and you're creating a lie for the life that they're living with you. That's not loving. And so the moment that I told her the truth was the first time that I actually loved Nicole, as hard as that is for me to, like, I don't want that to be the case. Like, in my mind and heart, I felt like I was loving her. But I can be an adult enough now to acknowledge and realize that that was not loving her. And that was the first time that I actually did, because that was the first time that I made a choice that would. That would. Not that it would benefit her, but it would because it gave her, like, the information that she deserved that would benefit her and hurt me. And that is what love is, is when you make those choices, and when you make the opposite choices, that's just selfishness. And whatever you think that it's love, when you think that you're preventing someone from being hurt by. By holding on to something, by keeping information from them, that's selfishness. It's disguise. You think you're loving them, but it's selfishness. It doesn't matter how many other people back you up and say, oh, no, you're just protecting someone from being hurt. No, you are hurting them. You already hurt them. It's just a delayed reaction. The moment that you chose to cheat or to whatever it is, or lie or do the wrong thing, that's the moment that you stabbed them in the back when they trusted you. The moment you violated the trust, it's just a delay. When you've. When you haven't told them about it, it's just. You've already. The knife is already plunged. They just haven't felt the pain of it yet. But it's. It. The dagger is in the back already. So you can't undo that. You can only resolve it as soon as possible. And the longer that you. You. You proceed in that, the worse that it is. And so, yeah, so that is the full story again. Like I said, I'm not proud of these things. You might say, well, why would you get on the air and talk about this? And there's a couple of reasons for it, obviously. In no way does this make me look good. In no way is this designed to make me look good, and it shouldn't. I have been the biggest scumbag and hypocrite. That's the other thing that I should say, is that it is hypocritical for me to sit here on this podcast every single week telling you how to live your life and your relationship when I'm not living in my integrity. It doesn't mean that all the advice that I've ever said is thrown out. It just means that in many ways, I wasn't following it. There's another piece to this as well, which is that not living in my integrity, even though I've tried to be a good husband and a good father, when you have a lie, when you have a secret, when you're not living up to be the man that you can respect yourself, then you're not going to respect other people. In addition to this, there's been so many times where now I am seeing also the other things that I was doing wrong in the relationship, that I was blaming Nicole, that I was projecting onto her, that I was gaslighting her, especially around trust. There are so many conversations, so many arguments, and we didn't have a lot of arguments, that is true. But when we did have arguments, a lot of them revolved around her trusting me and me trying to compel her to trust me when I knew that I wasn't trustworthy and getting upset about her, about that. And not only that, but the thing is, what I did tend to do was I would be reactive instead of responding. So I created an environment for Nicole where she could not be comfortable with feeling a certain way, where if she tried to talk to me about. I made it difficult for her to talk to me about things, because I took offense in every single little thing. Because I was protecting my ego, because my ego was so fragile, because I knew that I had this secret that I was holding, whether it was conscious or subconscious. I didn't think about it every day. But. But that's the other danger of this, is that I lost myself in this. And I caused Nicole to lose herself because of me doing everything to protect this lie, this thing, because of my fear of losing her, which is a selfish fear. Right? And I've talked about it before, that everything that we do in life either is on the spectrum of fear or love. And those are at the two opposites of that spectrum. And so I should have known from my own words that acting out of fear is the opposite of acting out of love. Courage is love. Fear is not love. It's the opposite of that. A lot of my interactions, a lot of how I showed up in this four and a half years, even though I tried to live a good life, and I really did, I did, I did make the changes. I haven't cheated, I haven't created new lies. I have really tried to make those changes. And I've come in here on this podcast in order to try and really genuinely help people. I mean, I don't make money from the pocket that has been my heart. But even though those were my motives, I was sabotaging myself because of what I had done and what I was still holding onto because I hadn't. You can't just put the skeleton in the closet and never have it come out. And so my other apology to Nicole is for the way that I responded in so many situations. Even with this step parenting, I didn't have her back as I should have. I didn't. When she came to me with concerns with things, there's many times where I either brushed them off or I got upset because of the way, like, I made it impossible anyway, that she comes to me. I'm going to. Somehow it's going to bruise my ego and I'm going to be reactive to that again. It didn't happen every day. It was pretty big gaps in between. But I did so much damage at those times that even if I hadn't lied or cheated, I would have still eroded her trust. I still wasn't worthy of her trust. Because how can you trust a person that you're not emotionally safe with? Again, I'm coming on the podcast. I'm telling you how to do it. I still believe the advice I'm giving you is the way to do it. But was I actually executing it at some level? I was for sure. You could say, oh, yeah. Someone watching my interactions might say, yeah, John, but no. When you really study it carefully and you look at my motives and what is in my heart, no, I was not truly valuing her. I was taking her for granted. I was taking her forgiveness and her love and. And her trust that she had put in me for granted, and I didn't listen to her. So all these things that I'm telling you, she was already telling me, I don't get to take credit for all this stuff. I'm glad that I know it now. But she told me so many times the issues that exist in a relationship. I didn't listen to her. I didn't listen to her intuition, told her that there was still something I was hiding from her. Right. And you know, if you're in a relationship and you're supposed to trust someone and that person doesn't listen to you, really, and you see problems and they're brushing those problems on the rug, or they're ignoring those problems, or they're not treating you in a way that makes you feel valued and like your contributions are valuable, then how do you even have an identity? Then how can you even trust someone? How can you feel safe? And that's the thing that I did was I did not create that safety for her. So with that said, what have I learned from this? Where am I at right now? So, like I said, I think the biggest thing is that at first, when this hole went down, I went into the victim mindset as well. So let's talk about that as well. Unfortunately, even though I told Nicole the truth, immediately after that, I did get defensive immediately after that. I started explaining away why I did this thing and how I still love her and all these things and how I'm not that person anymore. Whereas those things may be true to a degree that doesn't matter, that still doesn't show that I understand what I did and why I did them and how that's never going to happen again, or that I truly felt remorse and sorry because again, my instinct was to, now I've done this right thing, but now I'm still protecting myself, which is wrong. Which, again, how many times did I tell Nicole that she was protecting herself? But who was the biggest protector of themselves? It was me. And protecting yourself is always a selfish act. And so in the next couple days after the truth came out, I did not handle it very well. I did not handle it very well at all. I again tried to. I was defensive. I didn't get it. You know, we almost got a divorce over that. But what I have learned, what I finally clicked for me maybe like four or five days later and over the next couple weeks was that I finally put myself in her shoes for the first time, and I finally saw not only what the lying and the cheating had done to her, but everything that I had been doing to her and could actually see the impact that I always had. Like, because you don't want to believe that about yourself, especially when you're trying. Because again, like, it's not like for the last four and a half years that I haven't been trying to be a good person, that I haven't been doing, like, you know, I have. I can honestly say that I don't have anything in my life that I. That I. That is, brings joy to me for the last five years, besides the time that I can spend with Nicole. But essentially, I have woken up every day and lived my life to try and help the people that depend on me. Yet I was still failing. I was still not doing it because I didn't see. Because I didn't listen to Nicole, because I didn't hear, because I was still being selfish even in doing that, right? Because I was still protecting myself. And so Yeah, I mean, I learned a lot of things about, like, it's hard now. There were so many insights that came in the last few weeks, and I didn't really prepare for this because I didn't want it to be scripted in any way. So I'm trying to think about what all the. I've shared a lot of them already. But, Yeah, I mean, I guess the biggest thing for me was like, realizing just how, like, my actions would have made her feel, like understanding, like, seeing even just the things where, you know, here's a good instance. Like, I'm trying to remember all the conversations. But, you know, Nicole, in a lot of situations where we're in conflict, she would say that you're holding things against me. And I would say, that's ridiculous. I'm not holding things against you. We'd be in an argument where I would say, I did this for. I bring you cough every morning. I do all this, and my intent is to show her how much I love her. I'm doing all these things for you. But what I realized was that that's not how it was coming across at all, and that was me holding things against her. Because if you do things for a person, just the way that I was communicating, the pattern of communication, instead of saying to her, if she's questioning that I love her, instead of saying, what I would say was, oh, well, no, I do this for you. I do this, I did that, and all of this thing, which makes it feel like an obligation, which makes it feel like I'm holding against her instead of doing that. If I would have simply said, no, I don't want you to feel like I don't. I understand that you feel like I don't love you, and I understand why you feel like I don't love you. Here's the things that I'm doing to show you that I love you. That would have been so much of a better way to do that without holding it against her. So it's like, there's so many of these insights that I've had, and hopefully more of them will come to me over the episodes that we do. But, yeah, I mean, I've been working on trying to really dig into this stuff from my past. Like, where has this come from to really look at. Why have I done these things? And how can I be a person that creates safety and trustworthiness? And over the last few weeks, that's been my focus. My focus has been every conversation, every single time that we talk. Am I listening? Am I being non Reactive? Am I responding in love to what she's saying? Am I really being empathetic and understanding what she's saying? Anyway, I don't want to get off the topic of that, of the whole thing, but. But yeah, so I fucked up. What I did was wrong. There's no excuse for it. You know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to you, Nicole. I'm sorry to everyone, you know, especially the people that counted on me and trusted me. I'm sorry for being a hypocrite. And, you know, and I guess that that's the other part of it is that like, these words don't matter. They don't matter at all. The actions matter. And that's what I'm focused on doing, is doing the actions. It's not easy to come here and say this, but I believe there's a really good reason for doing it. And what I will say is, I'll finish it with this. I'll end it with this. Is that if you're watching this, if you're listening to this, Don't make the mistakes that I made. And if you're making them right now, if you're caught, if you're in a lie right now, it's going to be the hardest thing in the world for you to come clean on that. And it's going to seem like there's no benefit for you to come clean on that. I know it. Right. It's going to seem like the logical choice is to just keep that secret. Because why, why create pain? Why create chaos when you don't need to? But that's the wrong decision. And the reason why that's the wrong decision is because, like I said, is that you're like, regardless of you get hurt, like you, you, you get caught or not, or you find out or you eventually confess, you living outside of your integrity is going to hurt your wife. You're going to hurt her in many other ways, and it's just a betrayal. It's a continued betrayal. It's not who you are. It's not what you're meant to be. I say it as a man because maybe a woman could also use this advice as well, I'm sure, But it's more of an issue of men, I would say completely come clean, tell the truth, it's going to be hard to do, and there might be consequences and you may get left and you may lose your life over it. Like you're not your, you know, your physical life, but your relationship, your. The life that you have grown accustomed to. But it is the right thing to do, right? And like, you know, if I had been guiding my life completely by making the choices that were not out of fear, but out of love, not protecting myself and making the choices to do the right thing, I would have never created. I've created so many messes in my life. So much misery I've created for myself and for other people, mostly because of lies and holding onto lies. That is the majority of the thing that. Because the thing is also, I'll say this one last thing is, which is that. But if you're willing to lie, then you're willing to do the things that you would lie about. So what I mean by that is, like, let's say that I'm living a life where I will not lie. I will be 100% honest. That limits the things that I'm going to do. If you know that you're going to talk the truth about everything that you do, are you going to cheat? Are you going to do the thing that's deceptive? Are you going to do the thing that you're not proud of? You still might do it, but it's very less likely that you're going to do it if your foundation is honesty. Because if you know that you're going to say the truth about the things, it's going to very much limit the things that you're going to. You see what I'm saying? But the reason why I'm saying this is because when you get into the habit of lying, which is where I was at, I had done that for a long time, started out real simple lies. But when you know that you can just cover things up with a lie, it opens up all these possibilities of wrong things that you might do because you're not. You're shielding yourself from the consequences of them. But when you know that you're living in honesty and in your integrity, then you know you're not shielded from the consequences. You know what I mean? So, you know, these are things that I wish I would have really thought about and known myself before I made the mistakes that I. That I did. All right. I think that's about all that I have to say. I'm hoping that I didn't leave anything out because I owe Nicole for sure and everyone as much of this as possible. So if there's anything that I've left out, it's not intentional, but I've tried to cover every single piece of thing and everything that I've done wrong here, because that's what's owed in this case. All right, guys, well, that's it for this episode. I love you and I'm sorry. We find our way.

John [00:00:00]: Even if you like her enough to be in a relationship, if she doesn't pop the question, you can't do it. You're dooming yourself from the beginning if you do that as a man. If she wants a man bad enough, then. And she wants him to not be dating other women, she has to say something about it. I did not bring up the. The subject of exclusivity. You did.

Nicole [00:00:17]: I knew how I felt about you, and I could tell that you felt the same.

John [00:00:20]: Yeah, but. But I created enough indications that you felt confident enough that that was not gonna get shot down.

Nicole [00:00:26]: But I also think that a guy shouldn't be just, like, waiting around for her to say something.

John [00:00:31]: Well, y. That, like, take through every fault. We find you are dating someone. Can you just assume that you're exclusive or not? Do you owe someone exclusivity before you've agreed to it? Actually, that's a better way of phrasing. My answer is no. What's yours?

Nicole [00:00:50]: I think it depends really.

John [00:00:52]: Okay.

Nicole [00:00:53]: I think that if you've been dating for a really long time, then maybe you don't owe. You don't ever owe someone. Exclusivity. Right. But you owe them a conversation. I guess I should say, because men do typically use this line more than anyone else. You could date a man for six months.

John [00:01:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:15]: And you could be like, exclusive. You're only seeing him.

John [00:01:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:19]: And you could feel like he's only seeing you.

John [00:01:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:22]: But the second you're like, well, what are we doing? Are we going to get together? And he's like, no, we never said we were exclusive.

John [00:01:30]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:30]: So, like, I get that. But at the same point, like, when the relationship gets to a certain level, there needs to be a conversation. And I feel like to me, I wouldn't say it's a red flag, but it's maybe like a. What's it in between? Like a yellow flag, an orange flag. Where, like, if it feels like the relationship is or the like, dating is progressing towards a relationship, and they still seem like they're trying to keep their options open.

John [00:02:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:01]: Like, yes, that is your right.

John [00:02:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:04]: But the fact that you're exercising that makes me feel like I don't want to be in a relationship with you. Does that make sense? Like, I feel like guys typically try to use it as, like. Well, we didn't say we're exclusive to, like, as a kind of get out jail free card.

John [00:02:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:18]: But as a woman, I feel like, yes. Even though that's technically correct.

John [00:02:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:22]: I feel like, personally, me, like, Back when I was single, if we're progressing that way and like it's getting serious, right, and you still are acting like you want to have other options, right? And you don't want to have a conversation, right? Or I have a conversation and you're like, you know, you don't want to settle down. That would actually make me not want to be in a relationship with you. It would make me not want to be exclusive with you.

John [00:02:50]: Yeah, that. That makes sense. Well, a couple of things. So. So one, it's. It's a person's responsibility if they want to be exclusive, to say they want to be exclusive. So they have to say that.

Nicole [00:03:01]: That's true.

John [00:03:02]: Second thing I would say is that a woman should always do it.

Nicole [00:03:06]: Okay, I knew you were going to

John [00:03:08]: say that for a couple of reasons, right? Because it's about what is valued by the other party, right? So a woman's bargaining chip is sex. A man's is commitment. Now, woman, and we've talked about this before, woman gives up sex early. She don't have very much to bargain with anymore, right? It's fine. Okay. A man gives up commitment early. He doesn't have much to bargain with anymore, right? So the thing is, is that if a man is going to give up his leverage, right? Which a man needs the leverage because he has to be the leader, right? So if he's going to be leading the relationship, being the one in charge, being the one who's paying for everything, like we talked about in the last episode, being the man, then he cannot be coming to a woman and saying, let me lead you. Let me be in charge of you. Let me be, you know, your financial provider. That's a very weak position to come from, to be like, let me do this, right? Because that's what he has to give up is commitment, right? Because a man that has options, successful with women, successful man, his optionality is of value to him, right? For him to give that up, to commit to one woman is a trade that he's making of losing that optionality, right?

Nicole [00:04:39]: Well, typically, exclusivity is not the full blown commitment. It's just that you're not seeing other people, slash, sleeping with other people, right?

John [00:04:47]: But that's still something that he's giving up is commitment, right? But the thing is, before he gives that up, in order for a relationship to be successful, the man needs to have what we call the captain of the ship talk with a woman, which is basically, I'm the captain of the ship.

Nicole [00:05:04]: But isn't that before the Relationship. Are you saying they should do it when they're.

John [00:05:08]: Wait a minute.

Nicole [00:05:08]: Asking about exclusivity.

John [00:05:10]: Hold on. These are the same thing. Exclusivity implies relationship. Unless you're saying.

Nicole [00:05:14]: Not always.

John [00:05:15]: Always. If you're exclusive, you're in a relationship with someone. You can't be exclusive with someone and not be in a relationship with them. That's some kind of weird kind of voodoo.

Nicole [00:05:22]: I'm not saying that I don't agree with you, but I'm saying that sometimes, yeah, 2 of damaged people might just be like friends with benefits sort of thing. They're exclusive with only seeing each other.

John [00:05:35]: No, there's no friends with benefits. And. And you're not in a relationship, but you're not exclusive. Then that's fine, but you're not exclusive.

Nicole [00:05:43]: So you're saying exclusive equals relationship.

John [00:05:45]: Why do you care what someone else does with their private parts if you're not in a relationship with them?

Nicole [00:05:51]: Because if you're doing something with their private parts as well too.

John [00:05:54]: That. No.

Nicole [00:05:56]: Yes.

John [00:05:56]: You don't have no claim if you're dating someone. You're not controlling what they're doing with their private parts. You can't be like, okay, if I'm going to go on a date with you, you have to be baptized.

Nicole [00:06:05]: Yeah, but I'm saying if you go on enough dates with somebody and you're doing things with your private parts, then you talk about exclusivity.

John [00:06:12]: No, you talk about relationship. There's no.

Nicole [00:06:15]: Okay, I think you're calling it relationship, but most people would classify with what

John [00:06:19]: I'm saying, boyfriend, girlfriend, or if you're over 60, lady friend, guy friend. Okay, that is what it is. There is no in between stage.

Nicole [00:06:30]: You're showing your Gen X ness.

John [00:06:33]: You're either dating non exclusive or you're in a relationship. There's no, there's no fluid. There's no fluidity in this. There's no like non binary dating. There's like, you're either dating, not exclusive, or in a relationship and then there's marriage.

Nicole [00:06:52]: That's what it would be.

John [00:06:53]: There's married, then married is for life. But. But there is no. I'm not even going to entertain the other stuff because it's just ridiculous.

Nicole [00:07:00]: Like, look, John, I understand what you're saying, but you can't act like the world is so black and white.

John [00:07:05]: I can't act like it's so black and white?

Nicole [00:07:07]: No, because you've done some things that were not so black and white. And I'm not bringing those up. I'M only saying that it is messier. Life is messier than you're making it.

John [00:07:16]: I get it. Like, there's. But that's. There's. Okay, fine. I'll add one more state to make you happy. There is dating.

Nicole [00:07:24]: Okay.

John [00:07:25]: There is exclusivity in a relationship, and there's cheating and there's married. So I've been in the cheating state before. That's true.

Nicole [00:07:34]: I'm not even talking about that.

John [00:07:35]: Okay.

Nicole [00:07:35]: I'm just talking about, like, that I've

John [00:07:38]: been dating someone for a very long time. Right. I know what you're talking about.

Nicole [00:07:42]: And you weren't exclusive.

John [00:07:44]: Right? And it wasn't exclusive. There was no.

Nicole [00:07:46]: Yeah. And you pulled the thing of like. Well, they didn't ask.

John [00:07:49]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:07:50]: Exclusive.

John [00:07:50]: Because.

Nicole [00:07:51]: But I feel. Okay, look. Yes.

John [00:07:53]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:54]: It is also a woman's responsibility to ask.

John [00:07:57]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:58]: But is it not also the man's responsibility to say something instead of just taking advantage of it to cut her.

John [00:08:05]: To cut her loose? If there's truth to that, there's truth to what you're saying.

Nicole [00:08:08]: Because you can't sit here and be like, if you're exclusive, then you're in a relationship when like.

John [00:08:15]: But.

Nicole [00:08:15]: But I was this gray area of like. But then why would you string somebody along? People. So they're in situationships.

John [00:08:22]: So.

Nicole [00:08:22]: So that's the thing. Yeah. That is exclusive.

John [00:08:25]: That's a woman that doesn't. That's a woman that's not valuing herself high enough.

Nicole [00:08:30]: True.

John [00:08:31]: Because she. First of all.

Nicole [00:08:33]: True.

John [00:08:33]: Don't keep giving sex or don't even give up sex to a guy. I mean, we had that one woman on the podcast, and she's like, three months. Okay. Which made. It actually makes sense. Right. Which is weird for someone who was teaching pickup artistry. But. But it's. But it's still true. It's still true. It is a value thing. Like it is. And so, you know, so. So that the issue there is a woman that doesn't value herself enough because she's giving up sex and she's allowing a guy to have access to her while not giving her any kind of commitment. So she's giving a lot of stuff. Again, did I take advantage of that situation as a man?

Nicole [00:09:11]: Look, I'm not trying to bring this up to talk about.

John [00:09:14]: I know. But I have to be. I have to be honest and say that I did.

Nicole [00:09:18]: I'm only bringing it up because you made it seem so, like, cookie cutter of these things.

John [00:09:23]: Did I take advantage of that as a man? Yes.

Nicole [00:09:26]: You're not the only man.

John [00:09:27]: Was that an honorable thing to do? No, it was not an honorable thing.

Nicole [00:09:31]: You're not the only man to do that.

John [00:09:32]: But I also had. I also had a bigger fish to fry. I was also in a different kind of mess that I shouldn't have been in, so that, you know.

Nicole [00:09:41]: But men who aren't even in the situation you're in, is what I'm saying, still sometimes will take advantage of this. And I get that it's still a woman's responsibility to be like, hey, I want to be exclusive, or, like, I don't want to see other people. Yeah, I get that. And I'm not excusing that.

John [00:09:58]: I'm not.

Nicole [00:09:59]: But also, as a man, if you feel like a woman is.

John [00:10:03]: But I can't. Here's the thing is, though, look, as a man, like, again, maybe I'll backtrack a little bit on this, because as I think about this, I can, as a man, be like, what are we. Or be like, no, hey, we've been out for a long time. Like, do you want to make it official? I can't do that. I cannot do that. Because.

Nicole [00:10:20]: But if, you know, you're not serious about that woman, you can stop taking advantage of her.

John [00:10:26]: And how does that conversation go? You see what I'm saying? She's got to be like, I know

Nicole [00:10:30]: you haven't said anything, but I just can't see a future like us getting into a relationship. And so I don't want to waste your time because.

John [00:10:39]: Because she hasn't said anything. Yeah, that seems kind of weird. Like, if everything's going good, but she hasn't said anything. Like, I.

Nicole [00:10:44]: What do you mean it's going good? If you liked her enough that you would maybe. Okay, look, here's the can't, though. Here's.

John [00:10:50]: No, you got. But you got to. Maybe you got to create the.

Nicole [00:10:52]: You have to do something. If you liked her enough, you would do something.

John [00:10:56]: You show her that if she asks you to be in a relationship, she's got a green light. That's what it is.

Nicole [00:11:02]: You did things without telling me that you wanted to be with me. That showed me you wanted to be with me.

John [00:11:07]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:11:08]: And so that's what I'm trying to say is, like, yes, it is her responsibility.

John [00:11:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:14]: However, I also think that it is a man's responsibility at some point.

John [00:11:18]: But you. You drugged me and then. And then said, see it, say it, say it. And I said, I love you. And he said that. That. That, you know, that we're In a

Nicole [00:11:26]: relationship now, we're drunk on love. You are drunk on love. And I could see it. So I told you to just say out loud.

John [00:11:35]: So, so then you basically like, assumed, assumed the relationship. You're like, you know, that means like, that's it.

Nicole [00:11:42]: You can't tell someone you love them.

John [00:11:43]: Yeah, but I could have, I could have refused the offer at that point, which, you know, which I didn't. So that's why we're here. So, but, but in general, like, the woman has to initiate the conversation of the relationship of either what are we or I want to be. Because the man needs to be able to hold the power to be able to have the captain of ship talk and say, I'm the captain of the ship. That means that, you know, I go down with the ship, but I don't have a co captain of the ship. I'll always be the captain of the ship. You don't have to be on the ship, but I'm a good captain. I take care of my crew. I take, I, you know, I, I make sure I put my crew first. If you're on my ship, I'll take good care of you. But you don't have to, but there's not going to be any kind of co captain ship of this ship. That's how I am. And then, I mean, but he has, if he doesn't, if he doesn't have that, then he can't have that conversation. And there's no reason why he has any expectation like he's wasting his time. Because a woman that doesn't comply, doesn't trust you enough for you to lead and comply to. That is not a woman that you're going to want to be with long term because you're going to be fighting a battle forever that you're going to probably lose. So getting that compliance is going to require some amount of leverage. Right. Like, so he cannot be the one asking.

Nicole [00:12:58]: I think though, that women, if it's been enough time now, if it's too fast, then yeah, it's going to turn women off. But I feel like women do actually, like when a man is like, hey, I don't want to see other people, that's not being like, I want to be in a relationship, but it shows that he's super serious about you. And I feel like sometimes women do wait for a man to say that.

John [00:13:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:19]: And that's also why women might not say, have the exclusivity talk first.

John [00:13:26]: It's, it's better for a man doesn't say I don't want to see other people, though. It's just, it's.

Nicole [00:13:30]: I mean, I think it's good. I think as a woman, like, I think she can, early on you can

John [00:13:35]: show her that he doesn't want to see other people. He's spending more time with her. He's not.

Nicole [00:13:38]: Like, I don't think it hurts to say I don't want to see other people because I think also, like, especially in the beginning, a woman needs to feel like a man is equally as invested as her. And sometimes they're so nonchalant that like,

John [00:13:53]: well, he could show that then it

Nicole [00:13:55]: kind of messes up the relationship.

John [00:13:57]: I mean, he can show that in other ways though.

Nicole [00:13:58]: Like what?

John [00:14:00]: Like, like the, the things that he treats her to and the time that he spends with her and the commitment and like.

Nicole [00:14:07]: But men can have whole other lives.

John [00:14:11]: Yeah, but you.

Nicole [00:14:11]: And he's spending time with you, but he could have a whole other.

John [00:14:14]: Yeah, but you know, but that, that's when you have to ask the question. Then you have to, do you have

Nicole [00:14:18]: a whole other life?

John [00:14:18]: No. He's like, well, can do. Do you want to be exclusive? Like, I want you to be like you. You've got it. Like, a woman has to be the one that's initiating that because her, like I said, the woman's leverage is sex. A man's is commitment. Like, that's what, you know, the man's trying to get sex, the woman trying to get commitment for from what she considers a high value man, a man that she wants.

Nicole [00:14:38]: Okay, what if a woman says, I only want to see you and the guy says no? Then you break up with him.

John [00:14:43]: Then you break up with him. You know what I mean? Otherwise you're lowering your value.

Nicole [00:14:47]: That's true.

John [00:14:48]: I mean, you can accept less than that. Don't accept if you want, but you're going to be. But you're never going to. Like, you've already lost all your bargaining power, right? Because the one last bargaining power that she has is that she can break up with you. She can be like, no, the deal's off. Then he's losing access to sex. So. So she's actually taking the sex back, right? So that is. It's still a viable, you know, chip that's in play. But you gotta, you know, if you, if you give that one up, you got nothing. You got. He can do whatever he wants. You, you got nothing. Because if you're like, oh, I want to be exclusive. And he's like, nah. And then you're like, well, okay, we can just have sex anyway. Then he. Then you're never gonna. That guy's never gonna be exclusive. You're ne. He's never gonna ask you to marry him. He. You're just going to go on forever, right? Because you got nothing else. What else are you going to bargain with? You got nothing.

Nicole [00:15:37]: I'm not disagreeing.

John [00:15:37]: That's what I'm saying. But that's why the dynamic has to work that way. It's not. It's not like. Like I'm trying to be mean about it. It's just like, it has to work that way because women want the commitment and a man wants the sex, you know?

Nicole [00:15:49]: Okay. And I'm not saying that I don't agree. I think you make a good point. But I also think that men will take advantage of the situation for as long as they can.

John [00:16:00]: Right. So that's why, as a woman, you got to be like, no, I gotta have a high value of myself, and I'm not gonna.

Nicole [00:16:04]: But I think also as a man, you should.

John [00:16:06]: As a man, a good person, you should be. Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:09]: And not take advantage of someone for a long time.

John [00:16:11]: This woman is not someone that I'm gonna see myself with because she doesn't necessarily value herself high enough or whatever. And.

Nicole [00:16:19]: Or you don't like her enough to want to be in a relationship. Like, that's the reality.

John [00:16:24]: But it doesn't matter, because even if you like her enough to be in a relationship, if she doesn't pop the question, then you can't do it as a man. You're gonna give up way too much. Like, you're dooming yourself from the beginning if you do that as a man.

Nicole [00:16:38]: I'm.

John [00:16:39]: Cause you're giving the thing for free.

Nicole [00:16:41]: I'm not just understanding what I'm saying.

John [00:16:42]: No, no, I understand what you're saying. But in that situation, what can you do?

Nicole [00:16:47]: Break up? Like, end it?

John [00:16:49]: And then what?

Nicole [00:16:49]: Be like, I don't see this progressing into a relationship.

John [00:16:53]: Yeah. But then it's because you don't. She doesn't value herself high enough.

Nicole [00:16:56]: If you're like, sure, maybe that's it. But also, maybe you're not compatible. Maybe she's not the person that you want to see yourself with. Like, because when you're dating, you have to get to know each other.

John [00:17:05]: Let me give you the scenario then.

Nicole [00:17:07]: Okay.

John [00:17:07]: Okay. Guys dating a girl, right? He likes her. He would get an exclusive relationship with her, but she just hasn't asked for it yet.

Nicole [00:17:13]: That just seems immature.

John [00:17:14]: So does he break up with her.

Nicole [00:17:15]: That seems immature.

John [00:17:16]: What's immature? What is he supposed to do?

Nicole [00:17:19]: What's his say something.

John [00:17:20]: He can't, he gives up too much of his.

Nicole [00:17:22]: He can't talk.

John [00:17:24]: He's going to say, can we get an exclusive relationship?

Nicole [00:17:26]: I didn't say he could say that.

John [00:17:27]: What is he going to say then?

Nicole [00:17:28]: He could be like, hey, how are you feeling about us dating? Like, where are you at? Okay, that, like, come on, you can't say. Like she has to learn to speak up and then the man just is not responsible for speaking up at all. I mean like, especially if he wants a relationship, but he's waiting for her. Like, like what if she's waiting for him? That's like, I, I get it, but

John [00:17:51]: she can't like, like that.

Nicole [00:17:52]: But women don't know that they have to init unless they're watching this. Because a lot of times women don't want to initiate that either.

John [00:18:01]: If she wants a man bad enough then, and she wants him to not be dating other women, she has to say something about it. Now maybe she won't say anything because she doesn't think he's dating other women. Bad, bad choice like in the man and, and just choice in general. Right. Like a man is going to be more valuable to women if he's dating other women.

Nicole [00:18:21]: Sure.

John [00:18:21]: But like she's got to like, if she assumes this guy's valuable, she has to then, you know, give up some.

Nicole [00:18:28]: But if a man likes this girl and he's just waiting for her and he's just gonna wait, I mean, then

John [00:18:33]: I think he makes it, like you said, he makes it more known to her by showing her acts of devotion that show her that he is ready if she asks him that he would be exclusive with her. He may, he does those things. He shows, he goes to Florida and visits her. Pretends like he's at his parents house, but he's at her house. Right? Like, you know, he does stuff like that. You know, he does some cute stuff for her. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:18:58]: Like he shouldn't be pretending he's.

John [00:19:01]: Or whatever. You know? You know, he does, he does things that, that indicate to her that she's more than just a. Yeah, but the

Nicole [00:19:10]: thing is like I knew that you were dating other people. I didn't know the full story until the very end of all of that. But like, but still there was a part of me that like we didn't live close. I couldn't ask you for exclusivity. Like that just seemed like out of, but you did. But I didn't.

John [00:19:28]: But you.

Nicole [00:19:28]: Not directly.

John [00:19:29]: Well, you did. At some point I could tell I

Nicole [00:19:33]: knew how I felt about you and I could tell that you felt the same.

John [00:19:36]: Yeah, but I did not bring up the subject of exclusivity. You did, right?

Nicole [00:19:42]: Yeah. I said, well, now we're boyfriend and girlfriend because you said you loved me.

John [00:19:47]: So I was like, that's still bringing up the exclusive exclusivity. So you did. So, so. But I, I created enough indications that you're felt confident enough that that was not going to get shot down.

Nicole [00:19:57]: But see, that's what I'm saying, that's what I'm saying from the very beginning of all this with exclusivity is that like you will still know, right? You'll still know where the relationship's going. And sure, like, I understand where you're coming from. I do think the woman should say something, but I also think that a guy shouldn't be just like waiting around for her to say something.

John [00:20:17]: Well, yeah, well, but like take my long running relationship, the example where that went on for several years without, you know, without any exclusivity, right. I, at that point with what was going on in my life, no offense to the person, but if she asked me for exclusivity, I would have said no.

Nicole [00:20:38]: So you were worth like you, you would have risked not having that anymore.

John [00:20:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:44]: If she asked that.

John [00:20:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:45]: But you didn't want to also give it up, so that's why you didn't say anything.

John [00:20:49]: I didn't have any need to write like, because, but I think like morally

Nicole [00:20:55]: you should, I guess is what I'm saying. Like, I get that men care about sex, they care about these like intimate relationships. But that's my thing is like you

John [00:21:04]: don't see it going like there should. You should, you shouldn't, you shouldn't waste a woman's time because her time is precious.

Nicole [00:21:10]: Right?

John [00:21:10]: That I'll give you. That I'll give you, right? So you should be like, okay, well like, like I, since I don't see, like even if she asked for exclusivity, I wasn't going to continue this then at some point, okay, four weeks, five weeks, six months, whatever, that's enough time, right? You know, like not years of time. I agree.

Nicole [00:21:26]: That's what I feel like I messed up there.

John [00:21:28]: That was

Nicole [00:21:30]: that in general, like, I'm just trying to point out that like if you know, because like you said it was a long time and you still knew that if she asked you, you Would have said no.

John [00:21:39]: Yeah, but in my situation, I had other shit going on.

Nicole [00:21:42]: I get that.

John [00:21:42]: Worse than that.

Nicole [00:21:43]: But there's there, you know, like different, like. Yes, but men will date women that they don't really want to be with, they just want to sleep with.

John [00:21:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:52]: And because she hasn't said what are we? Or she hasn't asked him for exclusivity, he keeps her around for one thing.

John [00:22:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:02]: And sometimes that could be a very long time because maybe the woman does

John [00:22:05]: have low self esteem. May not also be one thing. He could like her too and enjoy.

Nicole [00:22:09]: But not enough to be in a relationship, which is what women want.

John [00:22:12]: Or their situation could be bad enough that like other extenuating circumstances that it's still bad.

Nicole [00:22:19]: What I'm saying is if you know you don't want to be in a relationship with somebody.

John [00:22:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:25]: Unless you have a friends with benefit thing, which you say doesn't exist. So according to you, if you know you don't want to be with this person, you should leave them here.

John [00:22:34]: I'll give you this.

Nicole [00:22:34]: Or like you should be like, look, I don't think we're going to work out.

John [00:22:37]: I'll give you this. As a woman, you should, if you want to be in a relationship with a man that's exclusive, you should ask him. You should have the value. And you should not be having sex with a guy over a period of time that you don't. That is not giving you commitment, exclusivity. As a man, if you're with a woman and you don't see it going, you wouldn't say yes to her being exclusive. Okay, then you should cut her loose and not waste her time.

Nicole [00:23:06]: Yes.

John [00:23:07]: Especially if you think that she would want to be exclusive with you.

Nicole [00:23:09]: Yes.

John [00:23:10]: Then you should do this. Even though you could do it, you shouldn't do it.

Nicole [00:23:13]: Yes.

John [00:23:14]: Okay. And if you do want to be exclusive with her, then you should give her the indications that, that you do. Now if you're giving the indications and then she still doesn't say anything, then you're in the clear. Right.

Nicole [00:23:23]: Then you should walk away too.

John [00:23:24]: Or you're in the clear. Then it's. Then it's fine at that point.

Nicole [00:23:27]: Because benefits.

John [00:23:30]: No, you're not.

Nicole [00:23:30]: Yeah, you are. Because you're still banging each other.

John [00:23:33]: Yeah, but like you're just dating.

Nicole [00:23:36]: But you're dating, but you're on a road that goes nowhere. It leads to a dead end. That's friends with benefits. That's like you said, that doesn't exist. Now you're Saying that it does.

John [00:23:46]: It's friendship benefit.

Nicole [00:23:47]: Why would you date somebody that you already know? She's telling you she doesn't want to be exclusive.

John [00:23:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:52]: And you want to keep doing what you're doing.

John [00:23:55]: I don't know.

Nicole [00:23:56]: Because doesn't that mean you have low self worth as a man? No, because, look, if you, you all of it was good until the very end. It was all reasonable until the very end.

John [00:24:06]: You want to be exclusive with her. Right.

Nicole [00:24:08]: And she says no. Have some self respect.

John [00:24:11]: If she says no. But you're never gonna ask her. You can't ask her as a man. That's what I'm saying. It's like.

Nicole [00:24:16]: Or if you feel like she's stringing you along, you should leave.

John [00:24:19]: Yeah, if you feel like she's stringing you along, you should leave. That's if that's the case. But. But like she has to ask. So it's not. It's really hard to like discern if she's stringing you along, you know? But why hasn't she asked? I guess like that's the. If you've given her all the.

Nicole [00:24:33]: Know if she likes you or not.

John [00:24:35]: Yeah, I guess if she's giving you all the indications that a girl is

Nicole [00:24:39]: more likely to be like talking about exclusivity before a guy is if she likes you, if she wants to be in a relationship with you. If she, if you ask as a man or you hint at it and she's like wishy washy, she doesn't probably really like you. Same with like a guy.

John [00:24:56]: You really don't want to date a woman that is like, has. Is pretty loose with her sexuality. So it doesn't reflect well on you. Like, you know, so.

Nicole [00:25:08]: So just Xna, that whole part where you like just messed up your own analogies.

John [00:25:13]: Well, I mean, at that point, like you, you should cut her loose for a different reason.

Nicole [00:25:18]: Yeah.

John [00:25:19]: This is because it's. Because it's definitely not. This one is probably not going to be marriage material. And then like.

Nicole [00:25:24]: And so that's getting very judgmenty.

John [00:25:27]: And no, it's not judgy. Like, that's what a woman's like.

Nicole [00:25:30]: I think it's better to just be like, she's not. She doesn't want to be in a relationship with you and she wants to do things that you don't want in a relationship. Like you don't want in a person that you're looking to have a relationship with. That's all it has to be.

John [00:25:44]: I mean, it's still a reflection of her, like, moral character, like, and how her value of herself, her self worth and value at that, at that point in time.

Nicole [00:25:51]: Yeah. So sure. But I don't think that it has to be so negative in order to make a guy feel better about himself.

John [00:25:58]: No, it's not. It's just like the same thing.

Nicole [00:26:00]: That it doesn't have to be the opposite for women.

John [00:26:02]: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's just, it's not a good situation to be in as a man.

Nicole [00:26:07]: Like, either way, like, a person shouldn't be using another person. And that's the whole part of the exclusive, like, exclusivity thing is like, well, you didn't ask. It's like, it's kind of like using someone to still get, gain access to them while still gaining access to other people.

John [00:26:23]: Yeah. But they have to ask. Like, it is on them to be

Nicole [00:26:26]: like, no, it's on everybody to have a conversation to be like.

John [00:26:29]: It's more on, on, on a woman to be like, this is what I want.

Nicole [00:26:33]: Yeah. If she likes you, she's gonna ask

John [00:26:35]: like some way, like, status quo. Right. If it's status quo. In order to upset the status quo, the person who wants upset the status quo needs to be the one to do it. Right.

Nicole [00:26:47]: Yeah. I'm not disagreeing.

John [00:26:49]: Which it has to be a woman for, For a man, otherwise he's not gonna, it's not gonna work out as a relationship. So.

Nicole [00:26:55]: Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying though, that also if you're a guy and you really like this girl and she hasn't said anything, there are ways that you can hint at that. You want that as well too.

John [00:27:08]: I agree.

Nicole [00:27:08]: Like, it's, it's not very mature to like, be like, well, I have to wait for her. Like, you can put things out there. Because if a woman likes you, she's going to want to ask you to be exclusive.

John [00:27:20]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think if you're, if you're a smart guy and you're like, trying to attract a woman, that would be a good partner for you. You should just be like, happy with your single life. And then if a woman comes along and you, you like her enough and then she wants to be exclusive with you, then she will take you off the market. And you'll let her take you off

Nicole [00:27:42]: the market because you're the princess.

John [00:27:45]: Because. Yes, because you're the princess. No, because it's because you have to.

Nicole [00:27:48]: Because guys are the prize.

John [00:27:49]: Because. No, because commitment is the, Is the prize that women want.

Nicole [00:27:53]: I understand why you're saying, like, look,

John [00:27:55]: but it also solves the problem. Look, if women never give up sex unless they're in an exclusive relationship, that also solves the problem, does it not?

Nicole [00:28:02]: I would think so.

John [00:28:04]: The guy is going to, like.

Nicole [00:28:05]: You really think that there's men that wouldn't leave a woman just because she doesn't want to sleep with him? I'm not saying that. He's a good man.

John [00:28:12]: I'll give you the turnaround. I'll give you the turnaround where the man can ask a woman for a. For exclusive relationship. You want to know what it is? She doesn't have sex with them. She says, I only have sex with guys that I'm in a committed relationship with. I don't give up my sexuality that easy. It costs being in a committed relationship. I don't want to have a bunch of flings. I only want to have guys that I'm in a committed relationship with or married to. Like, if she wants to really go that far. But okay, then if the guy likes her enough, he's like, I want to have sex with you. She's like, yeah. Do you know what that means? Or he says, I want to be in a committed relationship.

Nicole [00:28:46]: Man. If I said all that to a man and I was like, I wanted it to be with someone that I love and that I'm in a committed relationship with, and he's like, I want to have sex with you. So you want to be together? I'd be like, no. Did you understand anything that I said?

John [00:29:00]: No. He's agreeing to the terms.

Nicole [00:29:01]: He's like, yeah, in a horrible way.

John [00:29:04]: And. Yeah. I'm not saying to say it that way. I'm just. You did. I'm not saying to say it that way. I'm trying to say that, like, I

Nicole [00:29:11]: feel like he doesn't understand at all. This guy's definitely not. I'm not committing to. If he's like, I want to. So I'll date you.

John [00:29:18]: Where do I sign? I want to say, so let me sign the paper.

Nicole [00:29:21]: Yeah.

John [00:29:21]: Yeah. No, no. I mean, you wouldn't say it that way, but. But he's agreeing to, like, in that case, she still has the negotiation power there. Right. And then he's now able to, you know, to say, hey, I guess the

Nicole [00:29:36]: thing is, like, it kind of goes against a lot of things that also happen. Like, you know, we have a daughter and she got asked a homecoming. The guy asked her.

John [00:29:48]: Yeah. Don't get me wrong. Guy asks girl to Go out on a date. Girl does not ask guy to go out on a date. Girl asks guy for commitment. Yes.

Nicole [00:29:58]: Have you never seen where the guy's like, oh, will you be my girlfriend? And he does all these elaborate things?

John [00:30:03]: That's. I'm not going to say the word, but it's. That's pussy boy. John. That wasn't the word I was gonna say, but. But that. It's. No, no. Oh, no, don't do that. Oh, don't do that as a guy. Never, never ever do that as a guy. Horrible. Horrible, Bad.

Nicole [00:30:20]: Why?

John [00:30:21]: Oh, my God, So much respect lost for you.

Nicole [00:30:24]: Why? Because you showed you liked her.

John [00:30:26]: Because you asked her to be your girlfriend.

Nicole [00:30:28]: Why does that lose respect?

John [00:30:30]: Because you now do not have. Because. Commitment. You just. It's the same thing as a woman being loose with her sexuality. A guy being loose with his commitment loses respect. Man will lose respect for a woman that shows that she will sleep with any guy. A woman will lose respect for a man that gives up his commitment super easily. Absolutely. It might seem cute, but it's going to be loss of respect 100% of the time. Not just for women, but for all the other guys that see you, like, just being. Being like that. Like, it's. Look, show your devotion to a woman. Show that she's beautiful, that she's wonderful, that you love her, whatever. Or that you're. That you like, like, do, do do gentlemanly things, but do not ask her for commitment. Especially in a cute way that is. No, not good. Not good. You'll be cute like all the women. Like, oh, that's so cute. But not loss of respect 100%.

Nicole [00:31:23]: But a man asks a woman to marry him.

John [00:31:25]: Yeah. That's different.

Nicole [00:31:27]: That's the ultimate level of commitment.

John [00:31:28]: That's different. That's the ultimate level of commitment. Because when a man asks a woman to marry him, Right. She's already in an exclusive relationship with him. Right?

Nicole [00:31:37]: Yeah, hopefully.

John [00:31:38]: Yeah. The sex and commitment have already been given up. Right? Those bargaining chips have already been given up. Okay. Now he's showing, like, a higher level of commitment for, like, that he wants to be with this woman for the rest of his life. That is honoring her. That is showing, like, that's him now taking the risk. He knows her, he's dated her, he's been in a relationship with her. Right. He's showing her that even more than just having sex, that he wants to be with her. He wants to give something to her. Right. But he then expects her loyalty at that point.

Nicole [00:32:15]: So it goes like Guy asks for date. The woman has to ask for a relationship, but guy asks to marry.

John [00:32:20]: Exactly. Exactly.

Nicole [00:32:21]: Why?

John [00:32:23]: Because he's taking on that responsibility of her. Of her whole life and financial.

Nicole [00:32:28]: I know that, but I'm saying, I just don't get why the middle part.

John [00:32:31]: Why? Why? That's because at that point, he hasn't given up commitment. So that is still. He needs that in order to negotiate. The captain of the ship talk, right? Because. Because that's what he can bargain for. He can trade for that. Right?

Nicole [00:32:47]: So it's business.

John [00:32:49]: No, it's not business. It's just. Okay, let's suppose, let's. Let's suppose it's the other way. Let's say that a man, right, Suppose he hasn't had the captain of the ship talk, and he's in an exclusive relationship with a woman, whether she asked him or he asked her, whatever, they're in it right now. He wants to have the captain of the ship talk. And he's like, hey, I'm the captain of the ship, right? She's like, get out of here. And he's like, okay, bye. What can you do at that point? Nothing. He's like, okay, well, I'm going to break up with you if I'm not the captain of the ship. That's pretty weak and lame. That's pathetic. Like, oh, so if I don't listen to what you say and you're not in charge of me and, like, you're not the kid. Like, if I don't. If you're not the leader of the relationship, then you're going to break up with me. That's a pretty weak position. The stronger position is to be like, oh, look, my life is cool how it is. I really like you, whatever. But if you want to be with me, if you want me to give up and be committed to you and you're the only woman in my life, then I need to be the captain of this ship. Like, I'm the captain of the ship. Like, this is what my requirement is. Like, I'm happy either way. Like, I'll just, you know, I'm happy going on my merry way. But if you're saying, hey, you want to start something with me and you want to be exclusive, then this is what I need. This is what my requirement is, because this is what a relationship with me looks like. It looks like me being the man being the one who's, who's calling the shots and, and, and, and leading this relationship. You see what I'm saying? Like, it, it just doesn't work the other way.

Nicole [00:34:22]: I get it. But there is a part of me, too, that, like, in the very beginning of the relationship, that is still kind of like a hard time to have the captain of the ship talk it it. Like, because you still don't really know each other that much, and your finances

John [00:34:41]: aren't connected, but that's why you're not getting married. Like, if a woman is not going to trust or agree to a guy enough that she understand that. Because, look, it's still a trial period, right? You can date a guy and be like, okay, I understand. Like, at least, okay, you don't have to agree that he's the captain of your ship for life. You're just like, I understand that this is the kind of guy that he is not going to accept. Like, he's going to be the man. And so I will date him, but I have that understanding. And if I don't trust this guy and I feel like then I can get out of there knowing that I would have to agree to that. Like, he'd have to be that level of trust. So it's a good thing for both parties because she's already knowing what the expectation is. Like, this guy is gonna be the one calling the shots. So if I don't trust this guy to call the shots, I better not continue to be in a rush. I'm not gonna waste my time. Otherwise, she ends up wasting a bunch of time because she's like, oh, I can control this guy. I can do whatever. And then someday he's like, oh, by the way, I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I'm actually going to be in charge now.

Nicole [00:35:45]: That's true.

John [00:35:46]: Not good. Right. That's nay.

Nicole [00:35:47]: And so I see where you're coming

John [00:35:49]: from, but it's just because it's practical. It just makes, you know, I mean, like, I've coached enough guys, enough time disasters have happened because the guy did not. Did not establish from the beginning that he's going to be the one leading this relationship.

Nicole [00:36:02]: Yeah, I understand that. And I think it's fair, like you said earlier, for women to have the exclusivity talk.

John [00:36:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:10]: But for men to also.

John [00:36:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:12]: To not leave if they know they don't want to be with somebody.

John [00:36:15]: I agree.

Nicole [00:36:15]: After enough time, like, I'm not saying. I'm talking about guys that will string a girl along for months.

John [00:36:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:22]: Knowing that they don't really want to be with her.

John [00:36:25]: Yeah. But.

Nicole [00:36:25]: But because they didn't say, okay, here's where it's different.

John [00:36:29]: I, I would take offense to the stringing. A long word. And I'll tell you why. Because if I, I will give stringing along under this condition, if the woman talks to the guy and, and she's like, what are we? And he's like, ah, yeah, I don't know, whatever. Like, I'm just, We're just having a good time. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to change things. Like, I don't want to ruin things by putting words to this. Right. And then, and then he's still, you know, and then a couple weeks later, she's like, well, you know, which guys do say those things, then that's stringing along. That is stringing along. Right. But if she never had the conversation. No, it's not stringing along a guy. An honorable thing to do would be to cut her loose anyway. But there are plenty of guys that have had that conversation and have said, oh, I pushed it off. And like, yeah, no, like, if a woman know.

Nicole [00:37:14]: If you're stringing a woman along.

John [00:37:16]: I've had women ask me that type of thing. Like, the what are we? And I've just straight up told them, like, look, I'm, I'm not, I'm not getting into a committed relationship.

Nicole [00:37:25]: Okay, but the one that didn't. You knew was exclusive. Yeah, you.

John [00:37:29]: That was.

Nicole [00:37:29]: And so that's my thing. My point too, is that, okay, yes, it's still her responsibility to have the conversation. I'm not excusing that.

John [00:37:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:38]: But some guys will know a woman only wants to be with him. Or she'll be like, you're the only guy I'm seeing. Which isn't like, what are we? But she will say, you're the only guy I'm seeing. And he will still continue to string her along. True that. Stringing along, it's.

John [00:37:52]: I still don't say string along. If she hasn't. And she hasn't asked for. Like, you can't, like, you can't really string someone along unless they ask you for something and then, you know it's a dishonorable thing to do.

Nicole [00:38:04]: It is, but it's very dishonorable.

John [00:38:05]: Yeah, but it's not string along.

Nicole [00:38:06]: The most dishonorable.

John [00:38:08]: The most dishonorable.

Nicole [00:38:10]: You are bringing shame to her name.

John [00:38:12]: Yeah, that's true.

Nicole [00:38:14]: So it is dishonorable. And again, it does feel like you're kind of tip to. I'm not.

John [00:38:19]: You're wasting her time.

Nicole [00:38:20]: I'm not saying that she shouldn't say something. I Am saying that she should still say something. But there are times when a woman doesn't say anything because she's scared or whatever.

John [00:38:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:38:31]: Which again, she should still say something. But a man will use her, will

John [00:38:36]: string her along if she doesn't say anything. It's not string along. It's not using women.

Nicole [00:38:41]: Please say something then. Because.

John [00:38:42]: Yeah, yeah. If she said something and then he's still like, avoiding the question, then it is stringing along. Then I would give you 100% stamp of stringing along.

Nicole [00:38:50]: I still think if you're benefiting from someone not asking you a question, that's.

John [00:38:55]: What if she's benefiting from it? I mean, look, but then would you

Nicole [00:38:59]: not want to be with her?

John [00:39:00]: Let me give you.

Nicole [00:39:00]: Because you said, then she's promiscuous.

John [00:39:03]: Let me give you a real situation. In the real situation that we're talking about, in the situation I was in, I was taking this girl to Disneyland. I was like taking her to nice restaurants, like on trips, all kinds of stuff that I was paying for. So she was getting a lot of benefit out of it.

Nicole [00:39:20]: It sounds like someone who likes you.

John [00:39:22]: Yes, yes. But what I'm saying is that. And I, and I enjoyed the company. Right. I was just in a situation where I was not going to, you know, I don't know how, like, you wrangled me, but it's good. It's because it was. Because it was you. Like, you know, I mean, like, it was different. Like, like, you know. So what I'm saying is that, like, you can't just assume that, you know,

Nicole [00:39:43]: you gave her the impression that you did want to be with her.

John [00:39:46]: No, I didn't.

Nicole [00:39:46]: You took her all these nice places.

John [00:39:48]: Yeah. But I was also, like, it was very clear that I was going to Vegas. I was going to, you know, to other places. And so, you know, so that was very clear about that. There wasn't an actual conversation about it, but she didn't bring up the conversation. Now, will I admit that it was dishonorable for me to continue to waste her time knowing that. Yes. Was I doing other things I shouldn't have been doing at that same time? Yes.

Nicole [00:40:15]: Why string a woman along if you have other women? That's. I guess the thing is it wasn't

John [00:40:19]: stringing along if she doesn't say anything. That's what I'm saying.

Nicole [00:40:22]: This was years. It was not good.

John [00:40:24]: But it wasn't stringing along. Like, like I said, you don't know who.

Nicole [00:40:27]: This just sounds like an excuse to not feel bad. For like, having someone there just because they didn't ask you a question. You know what I mean?

John [00:40:36]: I mean, again, like I said, I'm not going to say that you shouldn't say, okay, like, we need to end this or whatever. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do the right thing.

Nicole [00:40:46]: It kind of sounds like.

John [00:40:47]: No, I'm not. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do the right thing. You should still do the right thing. However. I'm just saying that however, women. It's not stringing along.

Nicole [00:40:54]: Say something. Yeah.

John [00:40:55]: So string along. If no one says anything.

Nicole [00:40:56]: This is the excuse that guys use. You didn't say anything.

John [00:41:00]: Guys will. Frequently the woman does say stuff and he's like. He avoids the questioner. He, like, pushes it out another couple weeks. That's stringing along. That's what stringing along is.

Nicole [00:41:10]: Okay.

John [00:41:11]: It's like you're very triggered by that word. Well, because it's not really stringing, like, stringing along.

Nicole [00:41:16]: Stringing along is like just, I have stringed men along. Like, not really been wanting to be in a relationship, but maybe would still go on dates with them. Like, just. It happens. It's not the right thing to do.

John [00:41:29]: Yeah, but that's like, for attention, because they like the attention of.

Nicole [00:41:35]: Were you not string. So you. Okay, it's. So it's worse to string along for attention than to string along for sex.

John [00:41:41]: No, no. It's not stringing along unless someone has said something like, here, let me. String along means to create a phone call.

Nicole [00:41:51]: You don't want to be in a relationship with them, but you continue to act in a way like you would be going towards.

John [00:41:57]: Okay. String along. String along means to create a false pretense.

Nicole [00:42:02]: Yeah. Isn't still going on dates and doing stuff with someone that you don't want to like.

John [00:42:06]: Not necessarily. Not if it's very clear that you're not exclusive and that you're going and doing.

Nicole [00:42:10]: Is it very clear that you're not

John [00:42:11]: exclusive when you make it very clear when it's. It's.

Nicole [00:42:13]: But that's the thing. Did you make it clear you're not exclusive because she didn't ask, but did you make it clear you're not exclusive because you assumed you're like, I'm going to Vegas. Yeah, but that she could have trusted you.

John [00:42:27]: But okay, yes, I did make it clear because I was like, yeah, let's pick up a third. A second girl.

Nicole [00:42:33]: Okay.

John [00:42:33]: So that's pretty clear, right? That's pretty clear. There's nothing more Clear than that. Like, yeah, let's. Let's get you. You pick up a girl, that's like

Nicole [00:42:40]: a slap in the face.

John [00:42:41]: But hey, but that's what I did, so that's. That's clear.

Nicole [00:42:44]: Okay.

John [00:42:45]: Right. Well, yeah, it's not. It doesn't clear up the, like, are we in a relationship?

Nicole [00:42:49]: Part.

John [00:42:49]: I'll give you that. And still would have been the more honorable thing to like, not. But. But again, like I said, that was. In the situation where I was at, that was the least of my concerns because I had a lot of other.

Nicole [00:42:59]: You were doing a whole.

John [00:43:00]: That was cooking that I shouldn't have been doing. So.

Nicole [00:43:02]: Yeah, you were like, Breaking Bad level cooking.

John [00:43:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:07]: You cooked up a whole lot of this stuff.

John [00:43:09]: Yeah, it wasn't good. It wasn't good. I don't condone it. It's tough.

Nicole [00:43:12]: I still think you should say something. But I agree that if you made it that obvious about that you're not that serious. Then also, she's responsible, but. Yeah, yeah, a woman is responsible to say something. But again, I don't think men should take advantage of that, which is what I'm trying to say.

John [00:43:27]: Yeah. And I get that, like, you, you

Nicole [00:43:29]: know, if you're especially, like, you talked so lowly of, like, women, like, and judgmental of women, like, sleeping with people.

John [00:43:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:38]: But then it's like, guys will string a woman on along.

John [00:43:43]: Right. Well.

Nicole [00:43:43]: By being like, if she does ask and say, like, I don't know.

John [00:43:47]: Yeah, See, that's fucked up.

Nicole [00:43:48]: And then that's messed up. Yeah. So, like, if you have a problem with women sleeping with people.

John [00:43:53]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:54]: Don't be part of the problem.

John [00:43:55]: Well, I think. Well, that's not true because. Because it's two. Two counter forces that you need that are pushing against each other in order to have that friction. Right. Like, the man is trying to get.

Nicole [00:44:07]: Like there's a limit to it.

John [00:44:08]: Yeah, there's a limit. There's a limit to it. But. But what I've always told guys is that if a woman asks you, what are we? And you're not trying to be exclusive and you're trying to play the field, then just be straight up with her and be like, look, I'm not interested in a committed relationship. I'm interested in having a good time or whatever and not committing to anyone and seeing other people. And if you're not cool with that, totally understand. It's not your cup of tea. It's fine 100%. If you are, then things can stay the same. But it's it's, you know, like that's, that's at least being straight up and honest about it. Right. Especially the thing is, like. And the reason why that's, that's often the right response is because sometimes women will ask that after two dates. Well, I know. You gotta be like. You gotta be like, look, I don't

Nicole [00:44:54]: think it should be said so soon.

John [00:44:56]: You still don't want to string her along. You still don't want to be like, ah, I don't know, we're just having

Nicole [00:45:00]: a good time to say, like, it's only been two days. Like, we're still getting to know each other.

John [00:45:04]: Exactly. That's. That's fair. Like, you know when you're stringing along at that point. Yeah. But it does require the other person to be asking questions.

Nicole [00:45:12]: I agree. You can't just not say anything.

John [00:45:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:14]: That's on you too. Especially for years. That is on someone else as well.

John [00:45:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:18]: But also as the person that knows that they don't want anything serious, it's your responsibility as well, too, not to string someone along.

John [00:45:27]: Yeah. Yeah, I could, I could see that. You just. Or you can just pop a. Give them a ring. Just be like, oh, just give them a ring. Just get engaged. You're just like, that's your first question is. Or like, like, like they do in every single play. Or every. Like in the old times.

Nicole [00:45:41]: Or like, yeah, they've talked.

John [00:45:42]: I love you. Yeah, they talk. Like after one time, they talk. They're like, I love you. We're getting married.

Nicole [00:45:48]: Yeah. Literally, it's been a day.

John [00:45:50]: Yeah, that's it. Very quick courtship. That's how it used to be, though. Quick courtship.

Nicole [00:45:54]: Just quick and messy.

John [00:45:57]: Well, if you have a question for us, if you disagree, don't string us along. Send us an email at. You're really better than perfect. Better than Perfect podcast@gmail.com and you can check us out at. On the website@betterthanperfectpod.com. don't go to betterthanperfect.com because that's not our domain. Pod.com. i'm trying to buy it. We'll see. We'll see you next time.

Nicole [00:00:00]: I think women who like 50 50, they're just afraid to be taken advantage of emotionally. Or like a guy holding things over her. I gave you this. You have a roof over your head and a bed to sleep.

John [00:00:11]: Again, the same cure for men, right? I said a man that's worried of being taken advantage of is because he values himself low. If he values himself high, no one can take advantage of him. Same thing for a woman. If a woman values herself low, then she's scared. Then she's like, oh, a guy will control me, or he'll use these things against me or whatever. No, if you value yourself high, that can't happen. Because are you going to stay with a man just because he provides you food or just because he provide you shelter? But he's not a good man and he doesn't treat you right? It always comes from a low value of yourself. Because someone who has a high value of themselves, they don't need someone else to tell them what they're worth.

Nicole [00:00:40]: That's true.

John [00:00:45]: All right, today we are going to re open the can of worms of

Nicole [00:00:50]: everybody's favorite can of worms.

John [00:00:52]: Yes, the 5050 relationship. But it's because it's going around on the Internet.

Nicole [00:00:57]: Is 5050 fair if someone makes like, three times the amount?

John [00:01:01]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:03]: Well, it's funny because when I dated the guy who was like, Super 50 50, he definitely made at least twice as much as me.

John [00:01:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:14]: And he still expected me to pay the exact same amount as him because that's what was fair.

John [00:01:21]: Well, okay, that is fair, right? If you're.

Nicole [00:01:24]: Which we talked about that, like, equal.

John [00:01:26]: Because just because you make more money doesn't mean you should have to pay more money. Like, that's, that's very, like Atlas Shrugged. Like, very much like the whole. Like, to each who, you know, to each what they need and to each what they earn. Like, type of thing where it's like, he who earns more contributes more, and he who needs more, gets more.

Nicole [00:01:48]: But this, this is not even 5050 in the sense that you're talking about, like, it was like Excel spreadsheet level.

John [00:01:53]: Yeah, that's.

Nicole [00:01:54]: But I'm talking, like, would make dinner at his house and then he'd be like, what are you making next?

John [00:02:01]: Yeah, like making. That's fit for tat. 50 50.

Nicole [00:02:04]: Yeah, very extreme.

John [00:02:06]: Yeah, but it's. But that's the thing is, like, that's, you know, like, if you're gonna go 50 50, my argument is then, then it's 50 50.

Nicole [00:02:15]: But a lot of people don't go 5050 to that extreme. And I don't think it's beneficial because even with, like, my friends, I would not tit for tat them.

John [00:02:26]: No, no, exactly like that.

Nicole [00:02:28]: So why would you do that with your romantic partner if I'm not doing that with my friends, if I'm like, no, girl, I got you.

John [00:02:33]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:02:34]: Why would I want to be with someone that's like, no, I don't got you. Look at the Excel spreadsheet and Venmo me what you owe me.

John [00:02:41]: Yeah, yeah. Like, that's not my rule, is like, any time I'm out somewhere, I pay the bill.

Nicole [00:02:49]: I know yours. But I'm just saying, though, that, like, this is the issue with super equal 5050 is like, if you wouldn't even act that way with your friends.

John [00:02:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:00]: Why are you treating your romantic partner that way?

John [00:03:02]: Well, and. And we'll get down to the brass tax right away, which is that the man pays for the thing. The man pays for everything. That was to be a man. You don't have to be a man if you don't want to be a man, but if you're a man, you pay for shit.

Nicole [00:03:16]: But I think that's also where this question comes from, right? Because it could be the woman. I'm not saying that. Who makes three times more.

John [00:03:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:24]: But say that it's the man that makes three times more.

John [00:03:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:29]: And he still wants to do 50, 50. So, like.

John [00:03:33]: Yeah, that's like, it's just being pathetic. That's what I would call it. Like, you, you, you like a man wanting to do 50. 50 is pathetic. Like, man takes care of it. Even if he makes less, he still pays the bills. That's how it goes. That's what being a man is like, because it's the difference between the masculine and the feminine. Like, the man, he should be. He's supposed to be the leader, right? He's supposed to have the authority. Woman's supposed to listen to the man, do what he says. He's the decision maker. He's the leader in the relationship. She's supposed to do what. What he says to do. Right.

Nicole [00:04:05]: Like, well, she's supposed to trust him and in order to do those things.

John [00:04:08]: So along with that responsibility also comes the responsibility of providing, of paying for the thing. And you might think that's not fair. And. But you don't have to be a man.

Nicole [00:04:20]: You can't be a leader if you don't have more skin in the game.

John [00:04:24]: Right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how it should be. That's like, that solves the problem. Because the thing about it is, no matter how you try and figure out 50 50, this is why people are getting in such a mess with this. It's never going to work. There's no way.

Nicole [00:04:37]: It's always going to be tit for tat.

John [00:04:38]: Right. It's just not going to work. It's not going to. How do you divide the bills and who pays the mortgage and who pays for dinner? It's.

Nicole [00:04:47]: But even if you hide it.

John [00:04:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:48]: It can still feel unequal. Like, it's never going to truly feel equal.

John [00:04:53]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:53]: Like, and even if you make it super equal with your Excel spreadsheets or whatever, then it, then you don't have the polarity, you don't have the romance, you don't have a deep connection because there's this, like, loomingness of everything has to be equal.

John [00:05:11]: Right, Exactly. And the thing is like, and you can try to devise different scenarios. Like, let's say the guy makes three times more than the woman. So you could just do a 5050 and split everything down the middle. Or you could say, well, since I make three times more, I'll take whatever it is, I'll pay three times as much. And then you pay the. We split it so that it works out where my portion is three times as much as your portion because it's based on how much income we make. No matter how you slice this, it's not going to come out good. Because if you do the 50 50, the other person who's making less is going to feel like this. Like their, their, their quality of life is a lot less because it costs them more. And what if you want to live an extravagant lifestyle?

Nicole [00:05:50]: Right.

John [00:05:51]: And then they got to boot the, the 50 of your extravagant lifestyle because you, you want to like you. You see, you're making a lot of money. It doesn't matter to you if you spend a couple thousand dollars on whatever.

Nicole [00:06:00]: Yeah.

John [00:06:00]: To them it's, it's their whole paycheck. Right. So it just, it doesn't, it doesn't work.

Nicole [00:06:05]: But how do these men not become resentful? Because I think that's the problem. Because even with 50, 50, they can be resentful. So you're telling them that they got to pay for everything. And I feel like then they start resenting the woman and, or they'll be like throwing it in their face. I pay for all this.

John [00:06:22]: And it's what I come back to all the time, which is that men today generally lack pride and the way that you don't be resentful is you have pride in being a man. Like, you pay for the things because you have some pride in yourself as a man. Like, you're the. You're the man that makes you the man. Like, you can't claim to be the man if you're not doing all this stuff. Right. And again, if you're doing it and counting the cost, then you're not really doing it. Like, that's not. The whole point is that you do this because you are the man and it's the right thing to do. That that's what you feel like you're taking care of the people that are under your care. Right. That's why you're the leader. It's not just because you're. You have a penis. That doesn't make you. Like, it's because of what you do as a man.

Nicole [00:07:08]: You know, I hope that becomes a quote on the website. You're not a man just because you have a penis. I'm putting that on a shirt.

John [00:07:15]: And I know a lot of guys are going to be upset and they're going to cry about it, but they always do. But it's like, times are hard. Oh, the economy is hard. It's hard. It's hard. Hard. Yeah, it's hard. It was harder a couple hundred years ago. It was harder back in the. In the middle Ages or whatever when. When being a man was like, dying for your. Like in. For your tribe or in battle, you

Nicole [00:07:40]: know, like, just trying to get food.

John [00:07:42]: Yeah. Just trying to get food. Like. Yeah, it's hard. Yes, it is hard to be a man. Right. But. And it is to some degree a thankless job. But that's why it has to be pride that motivates you, you know?

Nicole [00:07:55]: Thankless job.

John [00:07:56]: Yeah, for the most part. Because I.

Nicole [00:07:57]: Thank you.

John [00:07:58]: No, I know, but like. But no one. But no one is really going to understand your struggle. Like, you know, as a man. Women are really not going to understand that. Like the burden that's on your shoulders. And it's not their fault because they just can't understand because they can't be in your place. They don't understand.

Nicole [00:08:12]: But they kind of know if they're doing 50, 50 and taking care of the kids in the house, they know more than men, actually, probably in some degree. So.

John [00:08:21]: Yeah, but. But like, to. To.

Nicole [00:08:23]: But I know what you're saying. Like to carry the entire financial responsibility and.

John [00:08:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:27]: To truly be the leader and be responsible for everything, because you can't.

John [00:08:32]: When I Say it's a thankless job. I don't, I don't mean that you appreciated. But what I mean is that you can't expect the thanks for it. You can't expect the appreciation. Because if you're looking for that, like the approval of even your woman in order to do those things, then you're going to not be able to do it because you're not always going to have that. Because sometimes the guy in charge gets the shit travels upwards. Sometimes you get blamed for all the shit too, Right? So that's what responsibility is. And so it has to be something else that's keeping you going, which is the pride, Right? It's like, I do this because I am this kind of person and this is what my values and beliefs are. And I take pride in being the man who is able to take care of the people who are in my life, able to support them, able to carry the load so that they don't have to like, because there's no other. And the reason why I keep on emphasizing that, because there's no other way that it makes sense. Because a lot of guys are going to complain that they're going to whine and be like, oh, yeah, that's not fair and it doesn't make sense. True on both parts. I agree with you 100%. It's not fair and it doesn't make sense. Why would you take that deal? The only reason why you would take that deal is to have the title, to be able to say, I am the man. And to me, and if you don't see the value of that, then don't be the man. And that's fine, you don't have to be the man. But for the real men, they will see the value in that because it's something that you can't put a price on, on being that person. Because you go to bed at night and you lay your head on your pillow and you know you're the man. It doesn't even matter if anyone else does. You know that, you know what you've done. Exactly. And that's the only thing that really matters. You know what I'm saying? And so that's why I agree with those guys that are like, nah, that's not fair. That's ridiculous. It's. Why should anyone ever take that deal? It's not a good deal, it's a shitty deal, but it doesn't matter because that's not why you're doing it. You're not doing it because it's economically advantageous. To you. You're not doing. Because you're bartering for sex or whatever it is. Like, you're not doing it because, you know, it's, it's, it's fair. You're doing it because you, you lay claim to that title and you want to be the man.

Nicole [00:10:46]: Yeah.

John [00:10:46]: For you.

Nicole [00:10:47]: I agree.

John [00:10:48]: Well, because I would feel like less of a man. Right. And I don't want to feel like less of a man.

Nicole [00:10:53]: Right.

John [00:10:54]: That's why I would do it, you know what I'm saying? Like, because I believe it's the correct thing.

Nicole [00:10:56]: Well, because you know what it feels like to be the man.

John [00:10:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:59]: And I think some of these guys have never felt that way.

John [00:11:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:02]: And so they don't understand the feeling, maybe. Because I guess, like, besides what you just said, which I think is really good.

John [00:11:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:10]: How would you help a 50, 50 guy become a man? Like.

John [00:11:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:16]: How would you coach a guy into being, you know, someone who is a leader and takes financial responsibility completely and those things. Like, because I feel like even, I mean, I'm not a man. But hearing what you just said. Yes, it's inspiring. But I feel like maybe they don't even understand what you're saying about being a man. Because like you said, like, as a society, I feel like we have kind of lost that.

John [00:11:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:43]: In a lot of men, unfortunately. How would you take those men and help them become. Or those boys and help them become men?

John [00:11:50]: Yeah. It should be an intrinsic thing that's within you. Right. So I think that all men have this intrinsic pride. It just has to be tapped into. And maybe you tap into it through the motivations of like, hey, if you're the man, women will be more attracted to you as the man. Right. Women, whether women say that they want or not, or they're like, oh, this guy's chauvinist right now. This guy is, like, ridiculous. I don't want a guy that's going to tell me what to do and is going to like, take, pay everything and whatever. It doesn't matter. That's what they actually do want.

Nicole [00:12:20]: They want a good man to do that. Not a controlling or like, you know.

John [00:12:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:25]: They want the right kind of man to do that.

John [00:12:27]: Right, right. But that's what you will be if you do that. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you're taking care of everything, if that's like your, you know, if you have the pride in doing it. So I think that's a motivation to do it is to say, okay, well, I mean, you Know the people who, who are willing to take on this kind of responsibility also get the, those benefits. You can't do it for those benefits only because, like I said, you're not always going to get those benefits. It is somewhat a thankless job, but. But that can help to motivate. But it has to be something intrinsically in you. You have to like, you have to. I think the way to, to talk to a boy, to help him to understand what it is to be a man and to motivate him is to find that hole in him where he's like, where he doesn't feel good enough

Nicole [00:13:11]: or he needs external validation or something to fill it.

John [00:13:16]: Yeah. And then help him to realize that by becoming what he's meant to be, that is the fulfillment of it. Right. Like when you're living your purpose. Right. And you're taking care of the people in your life and you have pride in being that person, that gives you a meaning. It gives you something that is fulfilling instead of seeking the external validation all the time. And if you're thinking that this will bring you the external validation, it could. But in general, it's not. Like I said, women will be more attracted to you, but you're also going to get people that are going to not like you because of that. Right. So you can't really draw on that. It has to be something that's inside you that says, okay, I have a sense of pride myself as a man. Like, I should do these things. And it's like an elevation of yourself.

Nicole [00:14:04]: Yeah.

John [00:14:04]: You know, but makes sense. But if you can't find someone to have that, you're never going to make that. It's never going to be a good deal. That's the thing. I can't make a logical argument and be like, oh, yeah, yeah, you should do this because. And then give you a bunch of reasons that will help you because it's going to be negative to you to do this. Right. You're taking on more of the share. You're taking on more of the burden.

Nicole [00:14:25]: Well, I think they're afraid of being taken advantage of. Or I think it's on both sides a protection mechanism. And that's why 5050 breeds more so to individuals just living under one roof. Like, you can't really become one.

John [00:14:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:40]: You can try with like a joint bank account, even though you're 50 50. And maybe you operate in some ways like a more traditional relationship.

John [00:14:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:50]: But really the core of 5050 is always going to be kind of two people, two individuals, like living Together. Not really like merging into one.

John [00:15:02]: No. Yeah. They're going to be bartering basically because

Nicole [00:15:05]: it's protection on both sides, I feel like. And that's why, I guess trying to focus this episode on the 50 50, on how men can feel prideful and how they can get to that place might be more beneficial because I feel like I understand why women do it. They're afraid of a controlling man. They're afraid to let men lead unless they feel like he's a man that she can trust. But women need to work on their thing is less about like the 5050 money.

John [00:15:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:35]: Because we've done episodes where you talk about that men don't care about women's money. I mean, some men will say that they do. Those are the 5050 guys, the heavy 5050 guys. But so they need to focus on finding a man that they can trust and releasing control and allowing a man to lead, which is hard. And that's hard for women. And that's where she needs to focus. But it sounds like men's flip side to get away from the 5050 is learning, you know, to work hard and take pride in being a man and, and giving and providing for the person that you care about.

John [00:16:08]: In both cases, it comes to a high esteem for yourself. A high self worth. A man pays for everything and does everything because he has a high self image of himself. A woman allows a man to do those things because she has a high self worth, a high self image of herself. Right. Because he's like.

Nicole [00:16:28]: I think they think the opposite though.

John [00:16:30]: I think they would think that 50, 50 is that I'm valuable enough that you have to pay for me, you have to take care of me, you have to do all this stuff for me because I have a high value of myself. That's what a woman should think. And a man should think I do all these things because I have a high value of myself. I am the man. Right. You know what I'm saying? Both of those things come from a high value of yourself.

Nicole [00:16:51]: I think men are afraid of those type of women that have a high

John [00:16:54]: value of themselves, that know what they're

Nicole [00:16:56]: worth, that are like, you gotta pay for me to do these things or whatever.

John [00:17:00]: Well, again, you don't have to demand it or say it. You just know what your intrinsic value is. You're like, okay, I have an expectation that a man is going to take care of me because I'm worth being taken care of. I'm worth like not paying for my dinner. If someone wants to go on A date with me, they need to pay for dinner because that's what my value is.

Nicole [00:17:20]: I agree with that. But that's also why I'm trying to focus on men.

John [00:17:23]: And they put a higher value on their sex as well. And it solves a lot of the problems. Women don't give up the sex easy. They have a high requirement for how they should be treated.

Nicole [00:17:35]: And, you know, I don't think it solves a lot of the problems because I think if men don't feel prideful in being a man.

John [00:17:43]: Yeah. Oh, no, I just.

Nicole [00:17:44]: A woman still can't find that man.

John [00:17:46]: But. But it solves a problem for that woman. You know what I'm saying? Like, it solves well, it like, weeds

Nicole [00:17:51]: out, you know, things easier.

John [00:17:53]: Yeah, because if you hold yourself to the higher value, then you're going to. Other people are going to treat you. No one is going to treat you more valuable than you treat yourself. That's the way to put it. But I'm just saying it's the same on both sides. It comes from seeing yourself as a high value. Man sees himself as a value based on what he can provide and what he does provide and what he's willing to do. Woman sees herself as a high value based on what a man will provide for her.

Nicole [00:18:26]: I feel like there's still this, like, fear that men have that women are taking advantage of them. So, like, what if he wants to be a man and he's like, okay, I'll pay for the stuff. But then like, he's like, oh, she's using me. Or.

John [00:18:41]: Yeah, but if you think that way, then you're already not a man, right? Because no one takes it. You can't. No one can take advantage of you. That's the whole thing. It's like, it's like if I go out to dinner with. With people, right? And then I pay the bill for everyone. I'm not like, oh, this person I think is taking advantage of me. And this person's not like, I don't think that way. If I think that way, then I'm not really being magnanimous. I'm not really, like, it's just fake. It's just transactional. It's like, then what can you do for me? Right? Because the only way someone can take advantage of you is if you think tit for tat. If you're like, what can you do for me? Because if you're doing something for someone else, they can't take advantage of you because you're voluntarily doing. Now if you Feel like they're forcing you to do something because there's some kind of emotional blackmail or there's a societal pressure or there's some reason why, or you're going to get something from them and they're going to take it away from you. If you don't do this thing then that's a different situation. But no one can take advantage of you. It's small minded thinking to think in terms of someone taking advantage of you.

Nicole [00:19:49]: I agree with you.

John [00:19:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:50]: I'm just trying to connect the dots because I feel like it's hard for you to put it into perspective because I feel like from the very beginning basically of your adult life, you've basically had this mindset. I know that you at some point didn't feel very good about like how you looked or something. But you've always seemed like, you know, you take care of people and that you're a good man. So I think that even though what you're saying is true, right. Yeah, I'm trying to like bring some of the things.

John [00:20:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:23]: The things that people have complain about or.

John [00:20:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:26]: Because I think that even though what you're saying makes sense, I don't think men are going to understand how to go from having the fear mindset or the like that woman's just going to take my money or whatever or to having the mindset that you have. And I know that it does start with like just telling yourself like starting to believe these things. But is there other ways that they can like.

John [00:20:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:52]: Gradually get there? Because I just don't want it to seem like one extreme to the other because it is going to take some time.

John [00:21:01]: I mean you do have to adopt the mindset, right. Like you have to dispel these, these limiting beliefs and these bad thoughts about the situation. Like, like a way that I would always think when I would go on a date with a girl is I would always think, damn, like she's lucky to be going on a date with me. So like there's no woman that would take it like would, would go on a date with me in order to just get food. That would be stupid. That would be like, like, like I'm worth way more than the food. So if you're going on a date with me to just get food, it's, I'm still happy, I'm still having a good time, I'm still eating dinner. A little bit of a bill doesn't mean shit to me. But you're wasting your time. Like, like, because you could have gotten way more than just food, you know what I'm saying? Like that, that's what I'm, that's, that's my mindset as a consumer. Right? Which, but if you don't have that mindset, nothing is going to fix that. Like you have to develop that mindset. You have to value yourself high enough that like when you value yourself high enough, then you don't think that people can take advantage of you.

Nicole [00:22:00]: That's.

John [00:22:00]: That's what I'm saying. And so I get that. If you're not there, then you have to do things in order to build your own self image so that you can be there. Otherwise.

Nicole [00:22:09]: I get that. I agree.

John [00:22:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:11]: But I think that you're still not hitting on like maybe the fears that are there. Like is the fear that they don't make enough money and so they feel bad about themselves and so they project. Like, that's what I guess I feel like is missing. Because what you're saying is true again, it just seems like it's not really like it's going from they're here to like, here's how you just be like you. You know what I mean? So I think my thing is like trying to understand where this even stems from. Like, like I said, is it the fear that they don't make enough money and that's why they're so stickler with their money?

John [00:22:51]: It's not. That's what I used to think, but it's not true. I'll tell you why. Because if you don't have a lot of money, then you take a girl out for a hot dog at the hot dog stand and you pay for both hot dogs. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:23:03]: So you go on a cheaper date, whatever.

John [00:23:05]: Yeah, whatever your budget is, but you still pay for it. Because I'll tell you what, if you take a guy that's thinking that way, right? And I've seen these guys, and you give him a bunch of money and he's making millions of dollars, he's still going to be a cheapo. He's going to go to an expensive restaurant and still want to split the bill. Or he's going to be the expensive restaurant and he's still going to be like, oh, is she taking advantage of me? He's going to be worried all the time that girls are just take advantage of him because he has a lot of money.

Nicole [00:23:28]: Is it scarce mindset? It's a mindset.

John [00:23:31]: It's a value of yourself. How you treat other people is a reflection of the value that you have of yourself always. And so if you have a high value of yourself, you're going to treat other people well, and you're not going to assume that people are going to take advantage of you because you don't care. Because your goal is not to get something. The only way that you can think someone's going to take advantage of you is if your goal is to get something from them. If your goal is to give something, then no one can take. Like, never. Do you give a Christmas gift to someone and be like, oh, I think they're taking advantage of me. You gave the gift if it had strings attached. And then you feel like they're not going to obey your strings, then you feel like you're getting taken advantage of. But when you're actually giving something, when you're actually a generous person or magnanimous person, then no one can ever take advantage of you because it's an impossibility for you to think that way. The only way I can have in my head that someone's taking advantage of me is if I'm trying to take it instead of gift. But what if I'm trying to give? How could they take advantage? If I give you a gift, can you take advantage of that gift? If I keep on giving you gifts and you give me nothing back, but I like to give you gifts because I enjoy giving people gifts, are you taking advantage of me? Some other people observing the situation might say, yeah, oh, he's being taken advantage of. You don't know me. I like giving gifts. I don't care if someone gives a gift back. I'm not giving a gift in order to get something back. I'm giving it because I like giving a gift. If there's another reason why I'm giving a gift, it's not a gift. It's a contract. It's a requirement. It's strings attached. And so that's where it doesn't matter how much money you make, because guys will be like, oh, that's easy to say if you make a lot of money. Now, if you're cheap when you don't have any money, you're going to be cheap when you have a lot of money. It doesn't make any difference. Money is just a multiplier for who you are. If you're a junkie, a drug addict, and you get a lot of money, you're going to overdose, you're going to be even more of a junkie, right? If you're a selfish and stingy person and you get a lot of Money, you're going to be Uncle Scrooge. Like, it's going to happen, whatever it is. If you're a very kind and giving person and you get a lot of money, you're going to give a lot of money to charity. You're going to help a lot of people with that money. Right. Money people are like, oh, well, money corrupts and power corrupts. No, the person was already corrupted. The power, the money just multiplied what they already were. You just couldn't see it because it was too small. Right. But once you had the money, it magnified it and then you could see the real person. It brings out the true colors. And so that's why it's like, money doesn't solve anything. Money only magnifies the thing, the problem or the solution. And so that's why all these guys that are like, oh, it's so hard. The economy is so hard. I don't make money. You don't understand. You're a boomer. Whatever.

Nicole [00:26:09]: Did you say you're a boomer?

John [00:26:11]: Yeah. It's all just rubbish thinking.

Nicole [00:26:14]: Yeah.

John [00:26:15]: You know what I'm saying? Like, if you want to be able to make more money and you want to be able to treat people better, like when I say treat people, but like, like in a monetary way.

Nicole [00:26:23]: Yeah.

John [00:26:24]: Then, then do it, then make more money. But you don't have to. Like, you can live on meager means and still buy two hot dogs instead of one hot dog. That's, you know, there's no reason why you can't do that. Because if you won't do that, then you definitely, like, you're like, oh, if I get more money, then I'll. I'll give more. I'll be more gen. No, you won't. You'll be more stingy. You'll be more worried that people are going to take your money, that people are going to take advantage of you. That's how human nature works.

Nicole [00:26:48]: That's a good argument. So do you think 50, 50 guys are takers then?

John [00:26:53]: Yeah, yeah. Because. Especially because they want a lot of 50. 50 guys still want the authority. They still want the respect of being a man. Right. And then. But a lot of times, even also, they don't want to do household chores. So, yeah, that sounds a lot like taking to me. Right, right.

Nicole [00:27:12]: You know, and they only want to provide half.

John [00:27:14]: Yeah. And even if you're just thinking, like, just in general. Right. Like, okay, as a man, I'm going to take care of you. 50. 50, right. I'm not 50. Sorry. I'm going to take care of you 100%. Right. I'm going to pay for everything.

Nicole [00:27:25]: Oh, you're downgrading me to 50.

John [00:27:27]: But. But what do I tell you when you go out with your friends? I say pay for everything because that's how you think in our relationship. Yes, I'm going to pay for everything. I'm going to take care of everything. But you, even as a woman, should never be like 50, 50 with your friends or 50, 50 with other people. You should be magnanimous and generous and not think someone ever going to take advantage of you. You should always be giving because that's the way to be. You know what I'm saying? That's just the way to be. Because otherwise you're living scared all the time. Oh, are people going to take advantage of me? Or like, it is a scarcity of mindset, like, oh, there's not enough. Like, if I give to someone else, then I will have less. And that's just if you live. If you think that way, you're going to live your life in constant stress and fear of other people instead of in constant love. It's always, you're either on the spectrum of fear or love. Like, that's a spectrum and you have to decide where you are on that. And you're always doing things or living out of fear or love. If you're living out of love, you're not worried, you're not counting the loss, you're not counting the things, the costs.

Nicole [00:28:28]: Tit for tat.

John [00:28:29]: Yeah. You're not thinking someone take advantage of it. And that's why the idea of 50, 50 is like, even if you're in a relationship, even if you don't agree with what I'm saying. Right. You're like, oh, well, the man doesn't have to pay for it. Okay, then both of you in a relationship should just, anytime that something comes up, offer to pay for it. You should both offer to pay for it. Then, like, if you don't agree with me, then at least the next best thing, if you don't believe in man and woman and in the traditional sense. Yeah. Then you should never ever put a spreadsheet or never ever count any of the stuff and just be like, every time both of you should be racing to take care of the other person. Exactly. You're just like, okay, let me take care of you, let me take care of you. And that's how I am with my guy friends. Right. I just make sure that I try to take care of the bill. My Guy friends also are trying to take care of the bill or whatever. I buy something for tickets for someone. Don't worry about it. It's not a big. I'll take care of it. I'm not going to try and charge them money. So I don't know. That's the way to be in general. But anytime you're trying to get into counting things, then you're going to go into the wrong. It's going to end in disaster.

Nicole [00:29:41]: That's true.

John [00:29:42]: Because things are never always going to be equally fair, no matter how you slice it. Life isn't fair. And that isn't it. Like 50. 50 is literally an expectation for life to be fair in some way because you're trying to create, impose.

Nicole [00:29:54]: Yeah. Trying to make it equal all the time.

John [00:29:57]: Yeah, but how can you value someone's contribution? How can you value or make the decision, oh, well, this person makes three times more money. Well, maybe they work three times as hard as you and you're sitting watching TV on your ass all day and so then they should pay more. Or maybe they're not. Maybe they're lucky and they're making three times. Who's to value that?

Nicole [00:30:15]: Who's making money watching TV all day?

John [00:30:18]: I mean, day traders, I don't know. People using their AI to run everything. Yeah, but, but what I'm saying is that you have to put evaluation on something that you can't really put evaluation on. Like, it's not going to be fair. Like life is not fair.

Nicole [00:30:31]: Yeah.

John [00:30:31]: You know, if you're trying to make life fair, you're going to be always counting the losses, like, and always looking out for your back and who's, who's screwing you over and who's not screwing you over.

Nicole [00:30:41]: Yeah, that's true. So how do. Maybe if a guy's listening to this and you've convinced him to be a man and handle all the stuff, how does he go from 50, 50 to traditional? Especially if he's already in a relationship and he wants to transition.

John [00:30:58]: Yeah, I mean, you just start doing it. You just start paying for the thing.

Nicole [00:31:02]: What if they have a house that needs dual income or something? They should move.

John [00:31:07]: And then you start figuring out the plan. Like, I mean, you should. Like, really my advice would be down that you can't afford it. You downsize. And if your wife was like, oh, I don't want to downsize, and whatever, then look, then you got to make it. You got to make a choice. Like, you're the man, you want to be the man. You got to step up and make the man and make the family make a hard choice.

Nicole [00:31:27]: Yeah. What if she wants to work so they could stay there?

John [00:31:30]: You got to have a plan, like a transition plan. I think like I would say no, you got to. You're already living above your means, but you got to have a transition plan. I guess if you, if you're going to. I mean, you might be already be in a situation. I can, I can get that. But like it's your choice to. It's not maybe not your choice. Well, maybe. I mean, you got yourself there, but it's your choice to stay in a situation or not and to change the situation. You know what I mean? So you gotta, but you gotta start

Nicole [00:31:58]: stepping up as they start taking on more responsibilities.

John [00:32:00]: Yeah. Yeah. Even if you can just start paying for more of the things like, and moving it where you're, you know, where you can pay for more of the things. But it's not easy. Yeah, but that's what the cost is of, of pride of being able to be the man. But that's why you should never get into that situation the first way. And like, that's why I always tell guys that if you can't support a woman and a child, then you're not ready to have a relationship.

Nicole [00:32:26]: You said to date last time.

John [00:32:28]: Yeah, to date. Well, I mean, if you're dating, why are you dating? You know?

Nicole [00:32:33]: So you were dating for a while. You weren't looking for a date?

John [00:32:37]: I wasn't dating. I was, I was.

Nicole [00:32:39]: You said dates earlier or whatever. You said you take some girls on dates.

John [00:32:45]: Yeah, but, but I have the money to do it.

Nicole [00:32:48]: That's true.

John [00:32:49]: So, so there.

Nicole [00:32:49]: Well, no, I'm just, I'm just saying. Even dating.

John [00:32:52]: Yeah, yeah, even dating. Like you should, you just have, you should be working on other things in your life.

Nicole [00:32:57]: Yeah.

John [00:32:57]: Getting your shit together right. Before you like involve someone else in your life as a, as a man. Like you need to be making, making enough money and it doesn't have to be a huge amount of money. You just have to like, whatever your means are going to be. If you want to make, you know, 50 grand a year and have a wife and advocate and you guys live in a trailer. That's fine. I'm not judging. That's fine. Like that's live a non materialistic life. Yeah, like I'm not even judging. I'm just saying like that's fine. You find, you'll find a woman that, that will, will do that with you because loves you and you're A good man and you take care like a woman. You know, I know most people are going to disagree with this, but a woman would rather be with a man living in a trailer if he takes care of her and takes care of everything and, you know, and whatever he has, he. He gives than a rich man who. Who doesn't. Right.

Nicole [00:33:50]: This is very anti what the guys

John [00:33:53]: think it is anti with it. But. But it's. It's not. I don't think it's accurate. I think women are attracted to money for sure. I think Amanda has money, but stability

Nicole [00:34:05]: is different than attraction.

John [00:34:08]: But okay, imagine being married to a rich guy that's stingy versus a poor guy that gives you everything he has.

Nicole [00:34:18]: That's true.

John [00:34:18]: You know what I'm saying? Which is going to be a better life in the long run. Which, you know, you might have this lifestyle where you're getting an allowance from a stingy guy, or you might have a lifestyle where someone is working for you and doing everything they can and giving you a budget and taking care of you and your child and your family. Because. Because that's what he's about. And he's a hardworking man. Like, you know, a lot of guys would be. But I think truly, that is, you know, ultimately, you know, if you ask a woman, would you rather have a rich man or a poor man? Of course you would rather have a rich man who wouldn't.

Nicole [00:34:51]: But it's not that easy. Like you said, there might be stipulations. There probably is stipulations, Right?

John [00:34:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:58]: And I agree with you. I think that she would choose that.

John [00:35:01]: Right. So that's what it is. You don't even have to make a lot of money. But if you're going to. Whatever lifestyle that you're going to support, it needs to be able to support three people at least. Or you could say two. If you're not going to have kids, that's fine. But it needs to be able to support whatever three safest anyway, Right? Yeah, that's true.

Nicole [00:35:22]: Or however many kids you have.

John [00:35:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:25]: Might be a lot.

John [00:35:26]: Some guy wants to marry my daughter, the first question I'm gonna ask him is if he can support her. Because he should be able to. Otherwise, what business. Why are you here? I don't have anything to talk to you about. Because that's what she deserves. Right. You know what I mean? That's the value that I would place on my child. So you should place that value on yourself as a woman. As a man, you should place a value on yourself that you would take care of the person that you care about. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:35:52]: I agree with you.

John [00:35:53]: But if someone doesn't understand that, then I'm not going to make them understand that. Like, they, they either get what I'm saying and they're like, yeah, that's right. Or they're like, this guy's crazy. He's ridiculous.

Nicole [00:36:04]: They don't get what you're saying. After this episode, I tried to pull out every excuse in the book.

John [00:36:11]: Yeah, you don't have to be a man. That's what I'm saying. It's like, you don't have to make a lot of money and you don't have to be a man, either one of those. It's. It's fine. But don't pretend to be a man. That's the thing.

Nicole [00:36:21]: Sure.

John [00:36:21]: Because a man does what. What men do.

Nicole [00:36:25]: Yeah. You know, I agree. But then they get upset that, like, the woman is running everything or controlling everything, but they're not. If you're in 50, 50, like you said, there's. There's no real leader here.

John [00:36:36]: You got no claim 50. You got no claim to the throne.

Nicole [00:36:39]: That's why I'm saying it's like two individuals. Because there's no one can be the leader.

John [00:36:44]: Yeah. Because if you're, if you're ever like, oh, why do you. Why do you get to be the leader? And said, like, like, do you eat food? Do you sleep somewhere? Do you like. Do you do any of those things that create those things? No, it's not like, it's.

Nicole [00:36:57]: But I make the food.

John [00:36:58]: Yeah, you make the food. But. But like, I, I can say those things. If I were in a 50, 50, I can't say those things. Like, why should I have to listen to you? Why should you be the leader? Because I have a penis. Like, that's the only thing I can say. Right. What else can I say in that case? But I take care of everything. Yeah, no, I say I take care of every. Like, what's mine is yours. I give you more than what I give myself. Like, I take care of you first before anyone, before myself. Like, all the things that I have, I give to you. That's why. Like, I can articulate a reason why you should listen to what I have to say or you should follow my leadership. But if I don't have that, then what other reason that's true. And maybe you believe that it should be 50, 50 in terms of everything, like the leadership of the relationship. But, man, the people that think that have never run a business or worked for a company.

Nicole [00:37:57]: I think women who like 50, 50, they're just afraid to be taken advantage of, like emotionally or like a guy holding things over her. Right. Like you just said like you never do this, but, but again, some guys would be like this. I gave you this. You have a roof over your head and a bed to sleep and food to eat.

John [00:38:15]: All because again, the same cure for men, right? I said a man that's worried of being taken advantage of is because he values himself low. If he values himself high, no one can take advantage of him. Same thing for a woman. If a woman values herself low, then she's scared. Then she's like, oh, a guy will control me or he'll use these things against me or whatever. No, if you value yourself high, that can't happen because are you going to live in that? Are you going to stay with a man just because he provides you food or just because he provides you shelter? But he's not a good man and he doesn't treat you right or that he doesn't do these things for you? You know what I'm saying? So if you have a high value of yourself, then you have nothing to fear either. It always comes from a low value of yourself. Is, is that. Yeah, well that's what the fear is, that the fear comes from a low value of yourself because someone who has a high value of themselves knows what they're worth and they, and they, they don't need someone else to tell them what they're worth.

Nicole [00:39:07]: That's true.

John [00:39:07]: But if you need someone else to tell you what they're worth, then you're going to be afraid that people are going to take advantage of you because they're not going to be paying your worth. But you know, this is my worth and this is where, where it'll be just like the same thing. If I'm, as a man, I'm going to be the man. I'm not going to be in a relationship. I never at one point ask you permission if I could pay for things or open doors or be the man. Because it's a non negotiable. I know what my value is. Weird. Yeah, I know.

Nicole [00:39:32]: I pay for things for you.

John [00:39:35]: People do this, they ask this stupid question. Yeah, they do. But I know it's weirder than just doing it, but yeah, I don't think that I can have a really good argument as to why this is an advantageous thing for you to do as a man. It's not, it's not a fair thing. It's not advantageous to you at all. But you do it because you have pride because you're a man and you have a high esteem for yourself, a high value of yourself. But like I said, but just being a good person, you have a high value of yourself and you would just do things and be generous to people.

Nicole [00:40:09]: Yeah.

John [00:40:09]: You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:40:10]: No, you're right. And I think that that's good you hit on the self esteem thing because I don't think we've talked about that in this sense before.

John [00:40:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:19]: But I hope that people are ready to be a man after listening to you explain all this. But like you said, I know you can't force them to, but maybe there are some people that have felt like something is missing inside of them and they're ready to take charge and be the man that they want to be.

John [00:40:38]: And I guess, I mean, one argument could be that, that I could make is that you have to have polarization in the relationship in order to have a attraction in a relationship and to have a sexual attraction or to have a romantic attraction in the relationship. And so if you depolarize, if you don't have the polarization, if the man is not masculine, the woman's not feminine, then you're just going to have a flat. You can be roommates and do 50, 50. And so there has to be a difference there. And so there is an advantage, like a benefit to it in the terms that if you want to have a relationship like we have where we're always going to be hot for each other and always want to be with each other, then you have to have a dynamic that is polarized where that's true on two different ends of the pole.

Nicole [00:41:30]: Yeah, so that is true because. Yeah, if you're in 50, 50, it's, it doesn't have the polarization, it doesn't have the like two roles because both people are kind of doing in some ways both roles. Sometimes it's not, sometimes it's not even 50, 50, like you said, sometimes it's the woman's working and she's doing all the household stuff and the guys just working.

John [00:41:52]: Yeah. And even if that's the other thing I didn't address is like, even if a woman wants to work, it's okay if she wants to work, but she

Nicole [00:42:00]: shouldn't need to to support the family.

John [00:42:02]: Yeah. But her money doesn't need to go to, you know, like all the money goes into one place. I think that's, that's, that's true. But like you, as the man, are

Nicole [00:42:12]: the one that's not relying on her money.

John [00:42:14]: Right, Right. You take advantage. You take care of her. You take. Like, I don't think that she should just have her own money. That's like, I think hiding away. I think that's kind of silly, too, because it should all be like. But you manage all the finances, right? And so it's like, it's bonus money or let her volunteer or let her do work that she doesn't have to make a lot of money. Like, maybe. Maybe she likes the thing that she does. Maybe she's an artist or something or whatever it is. Or like, she just enjoys, like, to do something that, that, that. That brings her joy because she likes doing that thing. That's. That's fine. But that money should not be. The budget should not be relied on. And if she wants to quit, then she should be able to quit, you know, so that. I think that's the other piece of it. It doesn't mean that she has to, you know, stay home if she doesn't want to do that. But. Yeah, but I think most women would want to be taken care of anyway, so.

Nicole [00:43:06]: Yeah, I think they do, deep down, even though they might not say it, I think they do want to. And again, like, I'm not saying that this is all men's thing. Like, women do need to learn. You can read the Empowered Wife book or the Surrendered Wife. That's a good book because she talks a lot about women letting go of control. And I think that that's the hardest thing for women. And I think the fear of, you know, being taken advantage of by a man or in whatever way, or, you know, not having the security from a man or protecting herself from a man because she's afraid what he could potentially do. Like, she has to work on those things.

John [00:43:48]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:43:50]: And in order to be in a traditional relationship and have the polarization and, you know, be a unit rather than 5,052 individuals.

John [00:44:00]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:44:01]: So it's not like women don't have anything to do, but there's this monetarily based. Yeah, in that instance.

John [00:44:08]: Well, because the other thing is like. And it encourages women to do that if the man is taking care of everything, because if the man is making the money and he's taking care of the family and the decisions and he's the leader, then the woman's role is to support the man and to make him as powerful as possible, to give him as much resources, his ability, energy, whatever he needs in order to do those things. Because that benefits her. Right. Because she doesn't directly create the money or those situations, but her contribution is

Nicole [00:44:40]: towards her man, which is than to get them.

John [00:44:43]: The more empowered he is, the more empowered she is.

Nicole [00:44:47]: Right.

John [00:44:47]: You know what I'm saying? Because she has a team. Exactly.

Nicole [00:44:50]: It's like a race car driver, right?

John [00:44:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:53]: He drives the car, but he comes into the Pit Stop and he has all the people helping him so he can get back out there and keep going.

John [00:44:59]: Exactly, exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. She's the pit crew. But it's true. But it's super valuable and it's not less important. It's super valuable because she, like, a woman that learns those things can magnify her man, which will magnify her standing.

Nicole [00:45:15]: Right.

John [00:45:15]: And women are like. Women know this intrinsically because why do women want to date celebrities or want to, like, you know, have men of high status? Because the higher the status of men that they're with, the higher their status is. That's true. And so the more you lift your man up, the higher that you are lifted up. But if you tear your man down, you're just tearing yourself down. Even the Bible has a thing in Proverbs where it says, you know, a woman who, like, basically. I misquoting it, but basically, like, tears her man down with his. Her tongue, divides her house in two or, you know, something like that. The idea is that if she's. She's like, wherever her man's status is, that that is where she is because she's married. She's chosen that man. That man is the. The man that's. That's in charge of that household that's leading her. And so her status is going to always be tied to him.

Nicole [00:46:05]: That's true.

John [00:46:06]: I mean, it doesn't, like, no matter what. And it's the same thing as a man, you know, if I'm. If you're who. How you are as a person reflects on me, right? So, like, if you're out there wearing skanky clothes at a nightclub, it brings my status down as a man. People see that and they're like, oh, yeah, your wife or, or you're just like talking like a sailor to. To everyone and, you know, being rude to people or whatever, Boom, it brings me down, you know.

Nicole [00:46:35]: True. So very true. Well, hopefully we've convinced people of the modern traditional relationship that we have.

John [00:46:43]: I'm. I'm very interesting to see the. The comment, the shitstorm of people wanted,

Nicole [00:46:50]: but I don't know very well.

John [00:46:52]: Yeah, well, like I said, you don't have to. Don't have to do it.

Nicole [00:46:55]: No one's forcing you.

John [00:46:56]: And it doesn't make sense. I'm never going to make the logical argument that it makes sense. So it's something you do because of who you are, because of, you know, your value of yourself.

Nicole [00:47:04]: So touche.

John [00:47:06]: That's it. All right. Well, check us out@betterthanperfectpod.com and email us

Nicole [00:47:15]: if you have any questions. Better than concerns.

John [00:47:18]: Yeah. Betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com and we'll see you next week.

Nicole [00:47:22]: Bye.

Nicole [00:00:00]: The AI responses are so annoying to me.

John [00:00:04]: You're talking about, like when someone, when you try to talk to someone about something important and then they give you a canned AI response.

Nicole [00:00:10]: Even like the therapy speak, they're very similar. You're trying to have a conversation with someone and they send you like a AI thing. It's like, well, like you can tell it's AI or if it's just straight up, like, this is not a safe place for me to have a conversation. What I'm trying to say with all of this is essentially like through these AI and the weaponized Thera speak, we've disconnected ourselves from each other.

John [00:00:40]: Is it okay if my partner uses ChatGPT? Decide whether or not to leave me

Nicole [00:00:46]: and to create messages, your relationship as

John [00:00:49]: your therapist, as your, like communication, send, send emails, evaluate like the fights in your relationship and tell you, you know, if you should leave someone. Is it, is it a red flag if someone does that?

Nicole [00:01:04]: Well, I think the intention is good. However, I think the outcome is not beneficial. Even if you think it might be beneficial. Because even if you try to unbiasedly put in the situation to chat GPT. Yeah, it's your chat GPT and it's going to be biased in some ways.

John [00:01:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:28]: Or it's going to be like, you should say this and then you just try to verbatim say that. Or you send a message. Like a. The AI helps you create a message to send and then it's not really you and it's not really you learning how to do it.

John [00:01:41]: Yes.

Nicole [00:01:42]: Kind of like it's like when you're a child and a parent does your science project for you instead of you doing this. Because your child doesn't really learn if you do the project for them. The same thing is like, you don't really learn if AI is trying to solve your problems for you.

John [00:01:57]: Especially if you don't read the letter. If you're like, oh yeah, just tell them why they're wrong and then send it.

Nicole [00:02:02]: Right. Well, and then what do you think you're going to do next time? Actually try to figure it out yourself or just have AI fix it again or send another message?

John [00:02:11]: Well, the problem is also, like, it's a third party in the relationship. Like, you shouldn't be like, should I break up with my boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever, or my partner because. And then explain your situation AI and then have AI.

Nicole [00:02:26]: I feel like if you're already asking that question, you already know the answer to that question.

John [00:02:30]: Or, or you're just, well, maybe you're not even putting that. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, you could be putting that question in there, but maybe what you're doing is you're just putting in facts, like, what you think are facts about what happened.

Nicole [00:02:41]: Right.

John [00:02:41]: And then it's like, now it's building up this case against this person that, like, oh, here's what happened today. You know, he left his underwear on the floor again today. This is the fifth time I've told him. And then it's like, oh, yeah, that's definitely. That's definitely grounds for divorce right there. So. Or it just starts to build up the case, Right. It's starting to get all this information, and then you're like, well, what do you think about my relationship? And then it's like, you've only told it all these bad things that have happened. And then it gives you an assessment of the relationship and says, oh, yeah, it seems like you're in an abusive relationship. You should call the abuse hotline. And it's like, okay, that's. I don't know if that's accurate, but then you're believing it because you know what? And maybe it's not as extreme as abuse hotline, but what I'm saying is that it starts to give you information based on what you've given it over time.

Nicole [00:03:30]: Right.

John [00:03:31]: Which might not be the. It's not. It's definitely not the full story.

Nicole [00:03:34]: No, I understand what you're saying, because that's also what I think is another real issue with using ChatGPT or AI in your relationship is that it could potentially say, like, you're in a bad situation when really you're just in a human situation.

John [00:03:55]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:03:56]: It's the same kind of thing with, like, the therapy speak and, you know, weaponized therapy speak and things like that, where it's like, oh, you're a narcissist. Like, your AI could be like, oh, those are narcissistic tendencies.

John [00:04:10]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:04:11]: But in reality, we all have narcissistic tendencies.

John [00:04:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:15]: And the thing is, like. Like you said, are you accurately, like, portraying this, or are you using your own wounds to kind of color what actually happened? And are you blowing it out of proportion or dramatizing it? And then, like, it's not accurate. Like, I think that even with the weaponized therapies, we've all kind of turned to, oh, you're gaslighting me. Oh, you're doing this. Like, we've labeled all these things, like, very critically.

John [00:04:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:50]: To almost have an excuse to be like, oh, no, you're abusing me or whatever. And I'm not saying that if you're actually being abused, then that's not a problem. That is a problem.

John [00:05:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:03]: But we can't handle the discomfort of human interaction anymore without labeling it as something more extreme. And sometimes it is extreme. I'm not trying to invalidate that. But at the same time, we have to realize that normal human relationships have been into under this microscope that none of us.

John [00:05:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:30]: Would survive. Like, all of us do things to hurt people. People. Not intentionally. Sometimes intentionally.

John [00:05:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:38]: And if we go by those moments and we can't ever make a mistake, then none of us are worthy of relationships or love or whatever.

John [00:05:47]: I also see it as kind of the same thing. And we did episode about like talking to your friends about your relationship and you. Like, it's the same thing. Like, it's a violation of trust if you go to your friends and you're like, hey, you know, should I divorce my husband? Or whatever? Like, because he does all these things that's like, you're supposed to deal with that with the person and your friends are going to give you bad advice. Right. Like you don't. Like, it's. No one would want to. Okay. If you're talking about if, if, If I knew you were talking to your friends about me and they were helping you decide whether or not to like, end the relationship, I would be pretty pissed off. I'd be like, okay, that's that. I feel like that's a big violation of trust. Like, not cool that you're having these conversations and these people are encouraging you or whatever. You know, that would be the end of like, they can no longer be in our lives type of situation. Right. And so if you're doing that with AI, you're doing the same thing. That's true. Except that it's not even a person. Like, but, but it. To me, it's the same exact violation of. Of that trust and boundary is that now you're sharing all this information with an AI intelligence and it's now allying against me potentially. Right. Like whoever the other person is. You know what I'm saying? Like that's. It's still a betrayal.

Nicole [00:07:04]: Yeah. Well. And you know, going off of what you're saying, if you're at a point where you're talking to anybody, including AI, about not wanting to be with your partner or whatever, it's way past time for you to actually have a conversation with your partner.

John [00:07:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:24]: Because those things will never be fixed or resolved or whatever your goal is without Talking directly to the person. But the reality is, though, if you're also at a point where you're like, should I break up or should I get a divorce? What do you have to lose with talking directly, directly to your partner? Like, that's the only way it's actually going to get fixed. Or you're actually going to follow through with not being together anymore.

John [00:07:51]: Right. And then you have like, cases where things, they're just like, using it to get a response. Like, okay, well, AI said that you're actually wrong about like the way that what you, what you spoke to me was narcissistic or was not the correct thing is like, you put a unrealistic demand on me. That's what AI said. I gave it our conversation and here's what it. It said that you were the one that was wrong. Like, that's.

Nicole [00:08:15]: Well, I was gonna say too, that the reason too, that people use AI and especially will like, take something that AI is written for them and send it to somebody is to one to try to make themselves so untouchable. Or like you said and, or to prove that they're right and you're wrong or you did something bad and they did nothing bad. Because the thing is, like, it can do all of those things. It can word itself in a way where you sound like a therapist. So you can't do anything wrong. Like, you're not, you're not yelling at them, you're not calling them names. You're not doing all these things. So you're not acting in a way that's wrong.

John [00:08:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:00]: And then also you're using it to make your case of why you're right and they're wrong or you're the victim and they're the perpetrator.

John [00:09:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:11]: And that's what I feel like, is the real reason that people use AI responses is to try to absolve themselves of any responsibility. But the reality, again, is that we're humans and you won't ever get the relationship that by trying to be absolutely perfect, make no mistakes, do nothing wrong.

John [00:09:35]: And you're gonna, you're gonna, like, people are gonna get upset. Like, you're gonna hurt someone. You're gonna upset someone when they're like, that's not you, that's your AI. Like your AI. Now you have an ally against me. Now it's two against one. Right? Right. Even I even say, like, even outside of that, you should never fact check someone with AI. Like, it's just rude to do, like, it's insulting and pisses people Off. Even if you know they're right.

Nicole [00:09:58]: It's just how to make friends in it.

John [00:10:00]: Yeah, exactly like, exactly. You're exactly right. Like from that story in there. But, but, but just don't like, even if you know the fact you don't like, look up. Oh, let's, let's, let's. Oh, yeah, let's ask AI and see what it says. And then you're like, oh, see, it says that you're wrong. It's like that's just rude and insulting and people are not going to like that. You know, I mean, but especially if you're doing in a relationship, essentially you're like, oh, yeah, I gave it our. What you said and you're wrong. Like, that's not the correct way to handle this situation.

Nicole [00:10:27]: Someone's not going to get defensive from that.

John [00:10:29]: Yeah, Because I mean, it is bullying. It's like it's, it's gang.

Nicole [00:10:33]: Gang.

John [00:10:33]: Yeah, right. Because you're now it's two against one. Like you're using this against them, including, like you can express your feelings about a thing or what you think, but when you're doing something like that, then it's ganging up on someone. It's not cool. It's going to cause more damage in the relationship.

Nicole [00:10:52]: Yeah. For sure.

John [00:10:53]: You shouldn't use AI as a therapist either. That's not the appropriate. I use AI for everything, but not for interpersonal relationship stuff because it's not a good way to learn things in terms of relationship. Life is meant to be experienced. Your emotional maturity comes from going through life, experiencing things.

Nicole [00:11:16]: Yeah. And having the hard conversations and repairing and learning to communicate better and all of those things. Yeah. That's like AI, I'm sure, can pull up some therapist information from the Internet.

John [00:11:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:34]: But what good is therapist information without another human being there to help you? And honestly, I'm not saying that therapists aren't helpful, but therapists have their own problems.

John [00:11:49]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:49]: Because we're all human. And I don't think that that's a bad thing. I think that when we expect a human being to be like AI to not have any problems, to not make mistakes, to always be perfect, that causes more mistakes.

John [00:12:05]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:12:06]: And so if you're having problems in your relationship and you're going to AI and you're using it to try to figure out things, or, you know, it's going to point out that this person has flaws because you're complaining about them. But I mean, you have flaws as well too.

John [00:12:22]: Right. And they may point out your Mistakes. But that's, it doesn't matter like that, that's still, it's still beside the point, right? Because you might be like, oh, well, what it's telling me the things that I'm doing wrong as well. But.

Nicole [00:12:33]: Yeah, but, but people don't really pay attention to the things that they're doing wrong, especially when they're hurt, right? They don't pay as much attention to what they're doing wrong as what someone else is doing wrong.

John [00:12:44]: And then they explain the situation. You know, you tell it what happened. It doesn't tell you what you want to hear. So then you just turned it off. Well, no, like a bad therapist, you explain it more. You're like, oh, no, no, but this is. And then until you get the answer you want, right? And that's what people do with therapists. That's what they do with, with AI. And so that's, it's, it's not a good, it's not a good plan. You should just not talk to your AI about your relationship at all. Like, if, if you're, if you're trying to figure out something about yourself, I think you could find some personal development knowledge from AI. Like, that would be useful.

Nicole [00:13:17]: But you have to be the right type of person to get help from AI. And like you said, it still shouldn't be like the place that you go looking for help, right? First personal development or. Well, it could be help on a. But like, but the reality is that most people don't actually want to grow, right? They don't actually have a growth mindset. They have a fixed mindset or they have a victim mindset. And so things like I just perpetuate fixed mindset and victim mindset and doesn't promote growth mindset unless you already have one.

John [00:13:53]: Right? Well, and let me give you an example, right? So like, okay, you could ask, like, you could use it to help you in your relationship, right? By saying to AI, something like, I tend to be defensive. Can you help me figure out some ways I can be less defensive? That's a great question to ask. That's fine. No, if your partner saw your chat GPT transcript and that's what you asked, they're not going to be upset, they're going to be happy. They're like, good, right? You got to think about, like, if they saw your transcript, would they be upset? Would that be a betrayal? Right? Doing something like that, asking about, like, even if you're like, I feel insecure sometimes, what are some ways that I could help myself from not Being insecure or I tend to fight with my partner a lot about this subject. What are ways I can, like, improve or communicate my thoughts a little bit more clearly? I think that's, that's where you're starting to get to the borderline of it. I think that's, that's fine as long as you're not talking about what they did.

Nicole [00:14:48]: Right.

John [00:14:48]: You know what I mean? And as long as you're not, like, using it as a therapist where it's like you're trying to tell it all your problems and try to give it, try to have it give you solutions to all your problems or your emotional, your emotional issues. Right. Like dropping your emotions on, on AI and then like, whatever, whatever response it's going to give you is going to be something that is, like, it's going to be catering towards you. You have to identify the problems that you have. Right. And then, and then ask for help on those things. Yeah, that is, that, that is a good piece of it. Like, that's where I think if you

Nicole [00:15:21]: want to dump all your feelings, you're better off dumping it into a journal because journaling is honestly a lot better. Helps you process the actual emotions rather than avoid them or try to pin them on someone else, which is what a lot of people, like you said, try to do with their AI. But no, I agree with you that it's not like it can't be helpful. But I do still think that you have to be a person who actually wants to work on things. And I want to say too, that if you do feel like you're in an actually abusive situation, yeah, you can ask AI, but you already know.

John [00:15:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:56]: If you are in an abusive relationship or not. And if, like, if you're at the point of, like, should I get a divorce? Should I, you know, break up with this person. If you genuinely, like, think that something abusive or really serious is going on, yeah, you already know the answer.

John [00:16:14]: You don't have to ask AI and you shouldn't ask. I would even say you shouldn't ask because the thing is, like, if you ask AI now, like, again, if your partner saw your chat transcript and you're like, am I in abusive relationship? And you're not. Now you're going to be done with the relationship because, because most people are like, okay, you're, you're asking like, you're, you're acting like I'm an abuser to AI and it's telling you these things. Like, that's, that's going to be like an end your relationship. Like anything that you would, that you would ask AI or type or talk to someone about that if your partner heard it would end the relationship you should not do.

Nicole [00:16:49]: Yeah.

John [00:16:50]: Because that's the same thing as lying or keeping a secret. Like it's going to come. What if it comes out? Everything that you type into a computer could come out. Everything you talk to a friend about could come out. Right. So it's like, I think that's, that's the thing about it. But I can imagine that's why I said like for the abuse case. Like, imagine that you, you know, you type into chat GPT and you're like, am I being, is my partner abusing me? And it's, and you're saying something nasty about what they, what they did or said. Unless it's like, if it's, if you already know the answer, then you don't even need to ask it, just like you said. But if you don't know the answer and you ask it, then that's, that's a pretty bad, like you're making a pretty big accuse. It's making an accusation is what it is.

Nicole [00:17:27]: Yeah.

John [00:17:27]: Well.

Nicole [00:17:27]: And I, I think that also too, if you're afraid you're being abused, you're probably going to describe it.

John [00:17:33]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:17:34]: More abusive anyway.

John [00:17:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:36]: And.

John [00:17:36]: Cause that's a strong word to use. Right.

Nicole [00:17:38]: But I do think people also throw it around a little too much as well too. I'm not saying in actual instances, but again, it goes back to like the weaponized therapy speak. I think that people, if you say something to somebody and they don't like it or it makes them uncomfortable, they can say you're being emotionally abusive or all those things. Like there is a line to these things and the line has been pushed further. And it's not making our relationships better, it's making them worse. It's making people more avoidant and like more in the victim mindset, more likely to walk away.

John [00:18:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:18]: From situations that could have been resolved with just an actual conversation or working on your conversation skills.

John [00:18:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:26]: Like you said, like ask AI how to not be defensive or ask AI how to respond when you feel triggered or hurt or exactly what those are. To bring that up to your partner. Like those things are beneficial because it's focusing, like you said, on yourself and what you can do rather than being like, oh, my partner, you know, hurt my feelings by saying he, you know, doesn't like a shirt on me.

John [00:18:54]: And even if you explain it perfectly well, it's still going to be skewed. Because here's a good example. Like I've got my thing that records all my conversations, right? I've never taken this and then taken a conversation we've had and put it into AI. Like if we had an argument or something and said, analyze this and tell me who's right or wrong. Because I already know that it doesn't have. Even with a verbatim transcript of exactly what was said, it doesn't have enough context. It doesn't know how many times this person has done this thing in the past. It doesn't know what the context of the situation is, like why you said a thing or why they said a thing. You know what I mean? Like, it might be like, oh, wow, they're being really, really mean to you or rude to you. It's like, well, what if this is something that I lied about and now they're confronting me about it? That changes the context of the situation. It's not just the words, right? And so that's, that's the whole thing is like you can't have the whole history of a human being and that and your relation, your relationship history, right? Like it doesn't have all of that, that knowledge. And that's, that's the reason why I would never do it. I have the ability to do it. I have literally everything I ever say put in there. But I'm never going to put it into AI to like try and analyze that because I already know, like, whatever I get out is I'm not going to be able to trust it. But it's going to be, it's going to be alluring to like, whatever gives me. I'm like, oh, like I could get sucked into it.

Nicole [00:20:17]: Right? You could put everything we ever say and.

John [00:20:20]: Exactly. And then I would like, oh, goes. Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:23]: Especially if you start using AI to construct things that you're sending to people, including like in the pre dating, like, I would hate to be dating right now because you don't really know if the text that that person sent you. I mean, you'll know if it's bad that it's not AI. Well, it's like, like, what if it's good? What if some guy wrote in his AI, like, hey, construct this for this girl.

John [00:20:49]: What is.

Nicole [00:20:49]: You know, make it so that she wants to go on another date with me again.

John [00:20:53]: Like, I'm actually going to use AI though, because I'm going to look up what that play was. Because it's good. Because it's exactly that though. Okay, so there's a play that we Saw in San Diego. I can't remember the name of it, but it's this guy that was writing these love letters for this other guy because he liked this girl. And then they went to war or something, and then the first guy died. And the second guy who was writing the letters.

Nicole [00:21:21]: I think it's survived by AI.

John [00:21:23]: Slow. That's mean. Is it? Is it there?

Nicole [00:21:26]: It is slow.

John [00:21:27]: Do you have it? This is a pretty easy one. I feel like we're getting stonewalled. Yeah. But I think you're right.

Nicole [00:21:33]: It is not you saying stonewalled.

John [00:21:35]: I'm using therapy speaking.

Nicole [00:21:37]: I know. Why don't do that.

John [00:21:40]: Stop stonewalling me. Cyano play. 1897. Classic French play. But this dude has a big nose, right? And he. Yeah, and then he's, like, embarrassed about it. He likes this girl. Yeah, he likes this girl that he's been friends with. He's been friend zoned for a long time. And then he. She likes this guy that's in his army, in his troop, like, under his command, and she's smitten with this guy. And then he talks to her, and she thinks that he's going to profess his love for her, but then she tells him about how much that she likes this guy, and she wants his help to get this guy to fall in love with her or whatever. And so he ends up helping her because he likes her so much that he starts writing letters or telling this guy what to say to her. Basically writing letters for him. Love letters.

Nicole [00:22:40]: Because he's. The other guy is, like, attractive but not smart.

John [00:22:44]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:22:45]: Doesn't speak very well.

John [00:22:47]: But the way that it ends. Spoiler alert for an 1897 French play. But is that who she loves that she thinks has written all the letters? Dies, and she mourns him, and then this guy ends up at the end a broken man. And he. And he regrets having done that, basically, because at that point, when the guy is about to die, he can't tell her that it's actually him. And he never knows if she actually would have liked him or not. But the whole point is that those letters were not. She got upset at the end when she found it out, obviously. And she was gonna get upset. That's why he wouldn't tell her was because it's not authentic.

Nicole [00:23:33]: Right.

John [00:23:34]: Like that guy, he pretended to be someone else. Exactly. And he had to keep the guys up. So when they're in war and everything, he has to keep on writing her letters as this other guy, because he has to like the guy Can't. Oh, there's a part in the play where the guy tries to talk to her, Right. And he can't talk to her because.

Nicole [00:23:54]: And she's like, but you write me these wonderful letters.

John [00:23:58]: And so he has to, like, the guy has to come up and whisper in his ear what to say in order to. And so that's. So the whole point of this, off on that tangent is that if you use AI to write things for you or to like, ex to woo someone, Right. Then you better have it all the time because it's not really you. Like they're falling in love with someone who's not you.

Nicole [00:24:20]: Well, don't do it because even if you have charisma and you're good with women or whatever, yeah. The AI could sound different than how you actually are. But most people using it AI to appear a certain way don't have the charisma.

John [00:24:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:37]: And then what are you going to do when you meet the person in person?

John [00:24:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:42]: And it's completely different.

John [00:24:43]: Like, and you can't talk to them.

Nicole [00:24:45]: It is a form of lying. Like you said, it's inauthentic. It's like portraying yourself. It's like catfishing, but now with words. It's like people used to catfish with pictures. Maybe they still do, but I feel like it happens a little bit less. I mean, the editing the pictures, now the AI pictures, it was the Photoshop, but it happened with pictures, but now it could happen with words. Whereas, like, before you didn't have that. So now if you're using AI to like, woo said or even like have a conversation with your partner.

John [00:25:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:18]: That's not authentic.

John [00:25:20]: Right, Exactly. Yeah. And it's gonna, it's gonna mess up the relationship because they're not actually falling in love with you. They're not actually communicating with you. Right, right. It's fine to use it to like send emails to your landlord or to whatever and like, you know, to argue some leg, you know, to. To make sure you don't say the wrong thing to like in a business dealing or something like that, that's fine. Who cares? Right. But when it's a personal relationship type of thing, it matters of the heart. It should, it should come from the heart.

Nicole [00:25:50]: Sure.

John [00:25:51]: So, yeah.

Nicole [00:25:52]: So the. Don't even use to construct your conversations unless, like you said, it's something like mundane and simple.

John [00:26:02]: Yeah. But more and more people are going to be doing this. More and more people, as they're like, you know, as they have more access to artificial intelligence, is. They're Going to be using it as a therapist. They're going to be using it to put their fights into the relationships, or I mean, put their fights into the AI and their relationship fights into it and try to get advice and try to figure out if they should break up with someone or if someone's a narcissist or someone. Like all of these things, which is going to be, you know, disaster. It's going to make things worse.

Nicole [00:26:32]: Because it's the easy way.

John [00:26:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:34]: But you don't learn anything and you don't have a deep connection when you do the things the easy way.

John [00:26:39]: Yeah. The big thing is, is really the big lesson is that you need to discuss the things with your partner.

Nicole [00:26:46]: Right.

John [00:26:46]: Like, that's what the communication.

Nicole [00:26:48]: Right.

John [00:26:48]: Not your friend, imperfect.

Nicole [00:26:50]: It doesn't have to be perfect.

John [00:26:51]: Right? Right.

Nicole [00:26:52]: It actually should not be perfect.

John [00:26:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:54]: Because that's how you learn. That's how you grow.

John [00:26:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:59]: So I think, like, as a society, especially with AI, unfortunately, it promotes perfectionism. That's, again, why people are gravitating towards it. Like, they're like, oh, if I put it in here and I send this,

John [00:27:13]: then I'll never say something wrong.

Nicole [00:27:14]: Yeah. And there's nothing that anybody can, like, pin on me. Or, you know, like, if a guy's using it to woo a girl, like, oh, I can come across as the perfect guy. I won't say something stupid. I won't do the wrong thing. Or, you know, like, it'll be, I don't have to worry about anything. I can just send it to her. Like, that actually keeps you from having a genuine, deep, connected relationship.

John [00:27:40]: Right. It's like a woman that always wears heavy makeup and then has to wake up in the morning before the guy wakes up and put on the makeup so he never sees her without the makeup on. Like, if you want to play that game, you're going to play that game forever.

Nicole [00:27:53]: But that's also not even realistic.

John [00:27:55]: It's not realistic. That's what I'm saying is you can't play that game forever.

Nicole [00:27:57]: Right. Exactly.

John [00:27:58]: You're eventually going to take a crap and stink up the toilet. It's going to happen. You can't just go to the drive to Starbucks every time you have to take a shit. It's not going to happen. You know what I'm saying? You can't keep up a fake image forever. And then even if you could, then they're like, do they actually love me for me? Or is it for this fake image that I figured out how to portray and that's the problem. Even if you're dealing with your relationship problems, even if you're successfully dealing with the relationship problems by asking AI and it's giving you good advice and then you're using that, and then it's like, well, then, shit, if you go somewhere where your Internet. We don't have Internet, then all of a sudden, what's going to happen? You're going to be like, oh, shit, let's talk about this later. Yeah, let's talk about it on the drive home. It's a bad idea.

Nicole [00:28:43]: And don't do it because it will spiral and you will want to keep doing it.

John [00:28:47]: Yeah. Unless you. Unless you want to just have the AI girlfriend. If you have the AI girlfriend, then you can just talk to the AI girlfriend all day instead of like, if you have a real girlfriend, then you need to have a real conversation.

Nicole [00:28:59]: AI girlfriend. Just like the episode that we did. That's not gonna. Or boyfriend is not gonna help you either.

John [00:29:04]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:29:05]: It's an enabling thing.

John [00:29:07]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:29:08]: Because even if you don't want to use it to enable yourself, you're still probably using it to enable yourself.

John [00:29:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:17]: Because all we want is validation. Right. At any cost. A lot of the time. So what easier way to get validation than using AI? And then you crave that. And then your human partner doesn't treat you as good as your AI.

John [00:29:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:36]: Because your AI is perfect. It says whatever you want it to say and it doesn't yell at you or it doesn't leave the toilet seat up or whatever. Like, that's why these things become so attractive. But that's not the human experience.

John [00:29:50]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:29:50]: And I think, like, in society today, we've lost the concept of doing and overcoming them.

John [00:30:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:03]: And being proud of ourselves.

John [00:30:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:05]: Like, life is hard in other ways and it keeps getting harder in some ways. So we haven't really overcome those things. But like, even with children, we've taken away, like with the participation trophies and all of those things. Like, we've taken away the challenge. We've taken away when someone does something hard and they overcome it and they feel good about themselves.

John [00:30:28]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:30]: And if we do that in relationships, then our relationships will become hollow and meaningless. Basically.

John [00:30:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:37]: And then everybody will go towards AI but that's. That's not going to fill the void.

John [00:30:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:43]: That we have inside of us as humans.

John [00:30:47]: Otherwise you just become the man in the middle. Right. Like if you're. If you're talking to AI about your relationship, about your girlfriend, and then you're Using that to, like, make your relationship better, then she should just talk to the AI directly and just have the relationship with the AI instead of, you're not necessary. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're just relaying the messages that you're getting from AI to. It might as well just go direct. So, yeah, that's the thing is there's no need for you in that situation. So. But. But yeah, I just think it's. It's generally a bad idea to. To consult AI about that. And I. And I'm someone who uses AI for everything.

Nicole [00:31:26]: Yeah.

John [00:31:27]: But not for these things.

Nicole [00:31:28]: I think it's a protection mechanism. It's a new protection mechanism for people.

John [00:31:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:33]: Like I said, it's a way to be like, you can't pin anything on me.

John [00:31:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:37]: Because my AI made it and they don't make mistakes.

John [00:31:40]: And people have been doing this the same way. Like it's nothing new. Right. It's the same thing that people have been doing with the therapist and with their friends. So the therapist tells them what to say, and then they carefully say what the therapist told them to say and then responds.

Nicole [00:31:54]: And then they're like, I need to talk to my therapist again.

John [00:31:57]: Exactly. And then they're like. They just pair it with the therapist. Oh, I told the therapist about this, and the therapist said this and said that you're actually being abusive in a narcissist, and so I should actually leave you. That's what the therapist said. Like, okay. Or they talk to their friends and they get the same thing. It's the same thing. You're just using AI to do the same thing. That would. That. That's wrong to do anyway. So it's not. It's not even new. That's the thing about it. It's not even new.

Nicole [00:32:21]: That's true.

John [00:32:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:23]: And I think people need to realize that, like, therapists have flaws just like we do.

John [00:32:30]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:31]: AI is not a human. But it also has flaws. It also is not always. Right.

John [00:32:36]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not definitely. Not when it comes to relationship stuff.

Nicole [00:32:40]: No.

John [00:32:41]: It has no computer. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:32:43]: It doesn't. Like you said earlier, it doesn't understand the nuance of being a human.

John [00:32:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:47]: It doesn't understand the backstory. It doesn't under any. Even your friends don't understand the backstory. Your therapist doesn't really understand the full backstory. Like, even if you've been with a therapist for years and you've told her,

John [00:32:59]: basically, they still are not there.

Nicole [00:33:00]: Right.

John [00:33:01]: Not sitting there actually watching the conversation all the time.

Nicole [00:33:04]: Right, exactly. And I think just with social media and all these things, like, we just feel like we know people without knowing people, and then it's this curated image a lot of the time. And then. So, like, real human interaction, real raw, genuine, like, relationships.

John [00:33:30]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:30]: Feel. But we're just so used to seeing curated versions of life.

John [00:33:35]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:33:36]: That we have forgotten that life as a human is flawed.

John [00:33:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:41]: That's part of why we're here. Like, that's part of who we are.

John [00:33:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:46]: That doesn't mean we can't work to be better, but that's part of the process. And if you take the easy way, or you put a band aid over it with, like, the AI or you, like, have AI do all your conversations or whatever.

John [00:33:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:00]: Then you're not even really living your life.

John [00:34:02]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:04]: So, yeah, don't do the. The AI responses are.

John [00:34:12]: So you're talking about, like, when someone. When you try to talk to someone about something important and, like, you. You, like, say your grievances or whatever, and then they give you a candy response.

Nicole [00:34:22]: Or even it's. Or even, like, the therapy speak. They're very similar. Yeah, yeah, they're very similar at this point. Like, the. You're trying to have a conversation with someone and they send you, like, a thing. It's like. Well, like, you can tell it's AI because it's, you know, a little bit more dry than how they would normally talk. Or they use words that, like, the person wouldn't normally use. Or if it's just straight up, like, this is not a safe place for me to have a conversation. Like what? What do you mean? Like, yeah, and like, in some instances, if someone's yelling at you and berating you or whatever, I can understand that. But if someone's just trying to have a tough conversation, you're like, this is not a safe space.

John [00:35:04]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:35:05]: Being uncomfortable doesn't mean you're not safe.

John [00:35:07]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:07]: And so it's along the same lines, like. And what I'm trying to say with all of this is essentially, like, through these AI and the weaponized therapy stuff speak.

John [00:35:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:20]: We've disconnected ourselves from each other. Not gotten closer, not gotten better.

John [00:35:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:26]: We've gotten more judgmental, more like pointing the finger, more like you're with me or against me instead of, like, actually working through our problems.

John [00:35:37]: Yeah. Yeah. I've even just started, even just with my regular emails, just having the AI put at the bottom that this is John's AI that wrote this to help Smart. Because it's Fine then. It's fine then. I think if you get an email like that, I mean, it shouldn't be about a personal thing, like a relationship thing. Like, I would never send you an email that's like, you know, your AI

Nicole [00:35:59]: has texted me sometimes like, hey, this is.

John [00:36:01]: Yeah, the text is different.

Nicole [00:36:02]: Yeah, John. But.

John [00:36:05]: But then like, if someone gets something like that, they're like, okay, it's good because they under. Because it's not deceptive. It's not like trying to pretend like, okay, this, this AI sent this on behal John.

Nicole [00:36:17]: Which your AI also does when it texts me normally tells me that it's your AI.

John [00:36:21]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:36:22]: I get that. Like the future is heading in crazy directions and nobody knows what's going to happen, but don't. Don't. And your human connection.

John [00:36:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:37]: By using AI.

John [00:36:38]: And I think the biggest rule I could just say is this, like, don't do anything or say anything. Don't do anything or say anything. That if your partner was present, they wouldn't like, that would feel like a betrayal to them.

Nicole [00:36:55]: Yeah. That you wouldn't say to their face.

John [00:36:57]: Exactly. If they were invisible.

Nicole [00:36:58]: That's what they've been saying. Don't say anything about what they say to their face.

John [00:37:02]: Don't look at anything. Don't say anything. Don't do anything that you wouldn't do. You know, if their partner was there or Jesus. If Jesus was watching you, you wouldn't do it. Right. Like, you know, like. But that's. But that's the best way to be. And that's why, like, that's what the problem really becomes with most of these cases, with people talking to Chatgpt about their relationship is they're saying stuff that if their partner saw what they're saying, they would not like that they would have a problem with that.

Nicole [00:37:29]: Because even if to your partner's face, you don't call your partner names.

John [00:37:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:33]: But behind their back, to your friends or your mom or Chatgpt, you call him a little bitch or something or.

John [00:37:43]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:44]: If they saw doing it.

John [00:37:46]: Exactly. But that's the way to be. There's actually Seneca, stoke philosopher, he said in one of his letters to Lucilius, he said that you should, in private, live like everyone's watching you.

Nicole [00:38:01]: Yeah.

John [00:38:02]: And in public, act like you're in private. So you should switch them. Right. So when you're by yourself, you should be acting like you're in a glass house and everyone can see you and hear you and your partner. And then when you're in public, you shouldn't be acting like, oh, you should have the same humility that you would in private. Like not trying to show off and try to be like, act a different person.

Nicole [00:38:28]: But I think if you act in private like people are watching you naturally act in public. Like with.

John [00:38:36]: But that's, it's just, it's just wise advice.

Nicole [00:38:38]: Yeah.

John [00:38:38]: And that's where. And so you could apply that is whatever you type into your computer. Yeah. That's so talking to AI, whatever. Chatting to AI again or even talking

Nicole [00:38:48]: to other people in your life.

John [00:38:49]: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's the key to it. If you, if you get that then you, you won't do inappropriate things in terms of talking to AI and.

Nicole [00:38:59]: Yeah.

John [00:38:59]: And violating the trust of your partner. Because that's really what it comes down to. Like, I would recommend not using as a therap yourself. But I mean again, like if you use that same rule and you said, if you went to your AI and you said, I just had a fight with my wife and I really messed up and I said stupid things and I'm really sorry, how can I apologize to her best or what would you know? I think that's probably more okay. Like it's maybe not the best idea, but if your partner saw that, they'd be like, oh, okay, that would actually make them feel good. Not bad. Right. And but if you're, if they saw your chat history and it was like, oh, you know, we got in a fight and this, she like said this stupid stuff. I would never call her A to her face, but she's acting like a. That's probably not. Not so good.

Nicole [00:39:47]: No.

John [00:39:47]: You're going to divorce court.

Nicole [00:39:49]: Yeah.

John [00:39:50]: Of your AI lawyer.

Nicole [00:39:51]: Well, you have to think about it. Like if you talk like that, that's what you're going to get back. Like you still have. If you're like, even if you're not saying to your wife, calling her a sure face, if you call her A to your friends or like if you just said even to AI, be like she was acting like a, like you still have that like hatred or that like anger.

John [00:40:17]: Even if you think, even if you're thinking in your head, like you gotta,

Nicole [00:40:21]: I mean you can't really control that,

John [00:40:22]: but you can't control it because it's like if I think into my head all the time, I'm like, I'm so stupid. That self talk.

Nicole [00:40:29]: I'm not saying you can't influence your thoughts, but I'm saying like if something pops into your head, the only thing you can't control that in that moment. But you can be like.

John [00:40:40]: You can be like, no, that's not accurate. Like, you have to tell your brain, no, that's not how we act. That's not how we act.

Nicole [00:40:45]: I'm not saying you can't do that

John [00:40:47]: because it starts here and then it goes to the here.

Nicole [00:40:49]: I'm just saying you can't control the initial. Yeah.

John [00:40:52]: Initial emotion.

Nicole [00:40:54]: But I'm not saying that you can't.

John [00:40:56]: But you can train your thoughts.

Nicole [00:40:57]: Control. Like, learn to control those.

John [00:40:59]: You can train your thoughts so that

Nicole [00:41:00]: you don't think that.

John [00:41:01]: Yes. Yeah, you can train your thoughts. You know that that's the thing. Like, you can't control the emotion, but you interpret the emotion and make thoughts out of it. And you can control those thoughts over time if you train yourself to do it. Like, I used to get upset in traffic. I used to have road rage and be like, fuck this piece of shit. Like, why are they moving so slow? And like, all this. And then what I did to stop that was. Every time that came into my head and I got upset, I was like,

Nicole [00:41:25]: okay, maybe they're on the way to have a baby.

John [00:41:30]: I mean, I told myself, like, okay, is it reasonable to put expectations on people that they should, like, get out of the way because I'm driving the car or that people should drive. Every single person on the road should drive perfectly and never cut me off. No, that's unreasonable. So it's this. Is it pretty funny that I'm getting upset about this thing and can I, like, you know, so I basically talked to myself. Every time it came up, I was like, john, that's not how we think about this person. Wish that person a good day. Not a. Not a. Not a birdie. Yeah, don't give them the birdie. Yeah, but. But you. You get. You know, that's where it really starts.

Nicole [00:42:07]: Yeah.

John [00:42:07]: And so if you're talking to people,

Nicole [00:42:08]: you can't do that.

John [00:42:09]: No, I know you're not, but I'm just saying, like, if you're typing to people and you're talking to people and you're saying stuff, it's because it's thoughts that are in your head. And that's really, like, you have to capture. Because if you're thinking bad about your partner, then you're gonna talk bad about your partner. Right, Right. Like, it's impossible to talk bad about your partner if you're not thinking about them.

Nicole [00:42:27]: Right.

John [00:42:27]: And so if you're. If you start thinking positive all the time about your partner, then you're gonna have a lot better relationship.

Nicole [00:42:34]: And John does this because he wanted to say something the other night that he didn't say because he was worried that he would actually accidentally say it in an appropriate setting. We're not gonna say what it is. But yeah, you caught yourself because, you know. And that's true. That if you allow it even in private. Right, exactly. As a joke.

John [00:42:56]: Yeah. Because I don't care. Like, who cares if I say that thing to you or whatever? Like, it doesn't matter. But it does matter because I'm training my brain and my thought process and my words to make that now an acceptable thing. Which in the. In public company would not be a good thing to say.

Nicole [00:43:13]: Yeah. You have to be intentional.

John [00:43:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:15]: And even if you have thoughts that come up, like you said, you can train your thoughts and you should train your thoughts and you should be intentional with your word. And, you know, we're not again, we're not robots. We're not AI.

John [00:43:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:29]: We're not going to be perfect at this. Yeah, but that's why, like, repair and, you know, working through things in communication and wanting to grow is what gets us to where we need to go. Not taking shortcuts by asking AI, like, who do I need to cut out of my life?

John [00:43:49]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:43:50]: Because they're making me uncomfortable or upset. Like, you're gonna be upset. I think that's also the thing too, is like, people. And I, as an avoidant person was really bad at this. And I feel like avoidance in general are really bad at. This is when someone, like, upsets you.

John [00:44:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:08]: Your brain goes like, oh, is this person actually meant to be with me? Like, they're not perfect. You know what I mean?

John [00:44:16]: Yeah, but.

Nicole [00:44:17]: Or like, this is. We're not getting along right now. Does this mean we're not compatible? Like, and you have to train yourself out of that.

John [00:44:25]: And, and that's actually the. The root of empathy actually is where you change your thoughts to. Instead of. If, like, you see the bad of a person that they do instead, you,

Nicole [00:44:38]: like, try to understand, you get curious

John [00:44:39]: and you're like, oh. Like, even if they're doing something bad to you, you're like, oh, well, they're doing that because they're upset. Or like, it doesn't justify the behavior. But. But like, that's. That's true empathy. It's like where you're changing the thoughts instead of being like, oh, this person's an asshole, or I hate them or whatever. It's like, oh, wow, they're. They're acting this way. They're acting. They're yelling at me. Or they're acting, you know, in a, In a very, not very kind way. And that's probably because of this. Or there's probably something going on with them.

Nicole [00:45:10]: Like their story they're telling themselves.

John [00:45:11]: Exactly. Instead of thinking a bad thing about them. Right. It doesn't mean that you like what's happening, but you're. That's.

Nicole [00:45:17]: Or that you have to be around that person.

John [00:45:19]: Right, but. Yeah, exactly. But, but the empathy is like. And once you start retraining your brain that way, then you're empathetic to all people and then you start to practice what we were talking about in the other episode of like loving all people at all times. Like unconditionally. Like that. That's where it comes from empathy. Like there's no other place that comes from, from, from empathy. Because it all starts in your, in your brain.

Nicole [00:45:40]: AI doesn't have empathy. You might think it does.

John [00:45:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:43]: But it does. It's not a human. It doesn't understand. It doesn't understand your full picture. It doesn't understand what it's like to be human.

John [00:45:50]: Right. I even have to like, I have it send some emails sometimes and I'm like, oh, cool, cool the tone, buddy. Like, don't demand things from people. Don't be like, don't tell me you

Nicole [00:46:00]: talk to your AI a little rough sometimes when it's.

John [00:46:03]: When it's ticking me off a little bit.

Nicole [00:46:05]: But yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, in general you shouldn't do that.

John [00:46:10]: No, you're right, exactly. I try to catch myself and be like, just be polite to it all the time because. Oh well, it's just. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Sometimes it works better when you. No, but then you're training your.

Nicole [00:46:18]: It doesn't work better when you're mean to it. That sounds like. No parents of like, it does though.

John [00:46:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:23]: Like our parents generation probably used to say they learn better when you smack them around a little bit.

John [00:46:30]: They actually did some studies and it does actually, like if you. But. But it actually performs better. But, but it's better to not create those patterns in your thinking and your speech. Right. Like, but how much better?

Nicole [00:46:42]: Like 0.2%.

John [00:46:43]: No, like a decent amount. Like, you know, but, but also. But that doesn't mean that you have to do that.

Nicole [00:46:50]: Right? You shouldn't. It's not worth the 1%.

John [00:46:53]: But sometimes, like I said, it will be. It will send some letter and it's like demanding stuff from people. I'm like, just chill. Chillier. So, like, have a little empathy. Like, be like. Okay, like. Like.

Nicole [00:47:04]: But it doesn't understand.

John [00:47:06]: No, but it can reword it that way.

Nicole [00:47:07]: Right. But fake it till it makes it.

John [00:47:10]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:47:10]: That's what people need to realize is like, I can fake it till it makes it right. But it's not a human. It can only fake being human. It will never understand. So you shouldn't be taking your human advice.

John [00:47:23]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:47:23]: Again, you can use it to help you.

John [00:47:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:27]: But don't use it to run your life, especially your relationships.

John [00:47:30]: Yeah, that's. That's the big thing. So. So. All right, so don't ask the AI to.

Nicole [00:47:36]: Don't ask it. Nothing except to learn how to crochet.

John [00:47:39]: We'll. We'll wrap it up then. Unless you got anything else on the.

Nicole [00:47:43]: No. Oh, and don't use it to construct your messages.

John [00:47:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:49]: In any way. I mean, like, business wise or some little things legally that you don't understand.

John [00:47:54]: Sure. But like, not to your personal.

Nicole [00:47:57]: No. Not to your friends, not to your family. Not to your, like, even your family. We're talking about romantic relationships. Because that's what we do.

John [00:48:03]: But, like, I mean, it depends the nature of it. Like, if I'm communicating. Trip details. I'm.

Nicole [00:48:08]: I'm talking about, like, you have an issue with your sister.

John [00:48:11]: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. If it's a. If it's a. Yeah, that's the thing is if it's a relationship type of issue.

Nicole [00:48:17]: Right.

John [00:48:17]: Then no, then don't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't even do that. And I use it for everything. Right. So, yeah, if I wouldn't do it, don't do it.

Nicole [00:48:25]: You heard it here.

John [00:48:26]: Yeah. All right.

Nicole [00:48:30]: Any questions or anything that you want us to talk about?

John [00:48:34]: Yeah, we need some questions at Better than Perfect Pod. Better than perfect podcastmail.com.

Nicole [00:48:39]: and then better than Perfect Pod. Go check out our website.

John [00:48:42]: Yeah. Oh, that's funny. Actually, I was getting upset at my AI today because I went to betterthanperfect.com and I'm like, the website's down. And then I messaged my AI. I'm like, what the heck? The website's down. And then it's like, oh, no, it's working. And then I'm like. And then I tried it again, and then it was still down. I'm like, you just told me you fixed it. It's not working. What the heck is going on? And then it's like, no, no, it's fixed. And then. And then I typed it and I'm like, Look, BetterThanPerfect.com does not work. And then it was like, yeah, your website's better than perfectpod.com.

Nicole [00:49:19]: good. It should have, because you were yelling at it for a website that it didn't own.

John [00:49:24]: Yeah. So there you go. So that's why you should be nice

Nicole [00:49:28]: to your AI or just talk to humans. Talk to AI.

John [00:49:32]: All right, we'll see you next time.

Nicole [00:49:34]: Bye.

John [00:49:35]: We find the way.

Nicole [00:00:00]: I did not know that people dig in the trash for food.

John [00:00:02]: Hey, I've done.

Nicole [00:00:03]: I guess I'm a germaphobe enough where I'm like, if it's in the trash,

John [00:00:06]: I've done it for cigarettes before. Where I, like, threw away my cigarettes. This is a long time ago. And then I was, damn, I really wanted a cigarette. And then I go in the trip, so I had to, like, break them in half at one point. I'm like, okay. Anyway, wow. The point is the point beyond the perfect we discovered through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. And today we are talking about. I just forgot it. Do you remember what it was? Did you forget it too?

Nicole [00:00:56]: Are you.

John [00:00:57]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:00:58]: Is your partner being controlling or are you just used to. To being single?

John [00:01:03]: Something along those lines, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So. Yeah, so that's a good one. So we've kind of talked about this in the past before we kind of like one of the first episodes, we talked about, like, the five rules for relationship, and we've kind of touched on this subject, but I think it's one that keeps coming up. So it's a good one to address in, like, the behaviors of, you know, having some kind of rules or regulations in your relationship versus actually being controlling.

Nicole [00:01:29]: Mm.

John [00:01:31]: But, yeah, so. So I think where we. Where we see this a lot is where people justify, like, single person actions and behaviors and say that they're being controlled when their partner doesn't like that.

Nicole [00:01:48]: Yeah. Or tells them that they shouldn't be doing it or whatnot.

John [00:01:52]: Yeah. So kind of to recap, I think what. What we. Maybe it's good to start with, like, the rules that we generally have.

Nicole [00:02:00]: Do you remember how many there are?

John [00:02:01]: There's five.

Nicole [00:02:03]: Why do I feel like there's more?

John [00:02:04]: I think it's five. It's like, so locations on all the time, passwords and usernames to email, phone access. Basically accounts. No girls night and guys night out or trips. Right. Yeah. Including their bachelor party. Bachelorette party. Basically. No friends of the opposite sex. Yeah. So that's four. And then. I feel like there's one more.

Nicole [00:02:39]: But see, while John's thinking about it.

John [00:02:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:43]: I need people to realize that, like, we have these rules.

John [00:02:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:48]: But we wouldn't do them anyway. So we don't even remember what the rules are. Like. Yeah, like we do, but we don't. Because the thing is, like, we just live this way.

John [00:02:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:59]: To respect each other. And so that's also why you can't even remember the last one, because it's like. I mean, and like, you're like, location's always on. I'm like, I. Like, I wouldn't even think to turn them off.

John [00:03:11]: Right, Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:13]: And like, of course you have all the passwords to all my stuff. Like, I'm married to you.

John [00:03:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:18]: And like, why do we need to go on girls trip? Guy trip. Like, I don't want to act like I'm single when I'm not single.

John [00:03:24]: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:03:25]: And like the friends of the opposite sex thing, we have friends of the opposite sex, but they're in groups of our friends and we would not hang out with them.

John [00:03:35]: Individual friendships of opposite sex. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:03:39]: Right.

John [00:03:39]: So. Yeah. So, I mean, these are things that I would say are. Even though they don't seem like it to a lot of people, but they're common sense to me.

Nicole [00:03:49]: Yeah.

John [00:03:49]: Like, these are pretty reasonable things, but a lot of people would call them controlling.

Nicole [00:03:56]: Yes.

John [00:03:56]: And I think that's the thing, is to understand what the difference is, the distinction between controlling and being protective of the relationship. Like, reasonable things. So where this comes up, a lot is especially going out. Right.

Nicole [00:04:14]: I wouldn't even call it protective before you start. I would call it respond. Respectful.

John [00:04:18]: Yeah. Respectful. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, some of the things I would. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess you could say either way, because I'm saying that some of these things, it is respectful. It is. Some people would say, well, it's. My partner's fine with it, so then

Nicole [00:04:34]: why would you then just do it anyway?

John [00:04:36]: Right. So. So. But then that. But then it is protective because you shouldn't be fine with these things. Right. So. Because some people are like, oh, well, you know, you should trust partner.

Nicole [00:04:45]: Oh, that you said they're fine with, like. Oh, no, the other things.

John [00:04:48]: No, but like, like, fine with, like,

Nicole [00:04:51]: girls trips or whatever. Yeah.

John [00:04:52]: Which you shouldn't be. You shouldn't be fine with it because it's not wise. Right.

Nicole [00:04:57]: It's not respectful to your relationship.

John [00:04:59]: Right. But. But if you say that it's. It's respectful because the other person is okay with it as well, that doesn't.

Nicole [00:05:05]: To me, that still doesn't make it respectful.

John [00:05:08]: Yeah. Because some people are of the mind that I'm such a big person, I trust my partner, so I don't need to have these rules that you guys Have, I don't need to, have to know where their location is. I don't need it to be on. I don't need to have their phone password. I trust them. They can go out to a nightclub dressed in a skanky outfit. I know they're not going to cheat on me. I trust them.

Nicole [00:05:29]: But see, my logical brain is like, regardless of what you say, it's still not respectful to you. And so that's why I'm saying, I keep saying respectful because it doesn't matter if the person's fine with it or not, it's still not respectful. Just because they're fine with it doesn't make it respectful.

John [00:05:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:48]: Like that is not open to interpretation. Like, is it acceptable? Sure. If your partner says that he's fine with it, then maybe acceptable. But acceptable does not equal respectful. It doesn't equal the right thing. It equals that. He is accepting that.

John [00:06:06]: And that person has a right to say that they don't like it. Because a lot of times what ends up happening we've talked about a little bit before, more so women sometimes will use the word controlling in order to, or insecure to make a guy feel like what she wants to do. And a lot of times it's a manipulation tactic. Right. And it's one sided in the sense that, oh, you can't tell me like why are you so threatened by what I wear or if I go here or I go with my girlfriends or if I have this guy friend, right? That's like you're being controlling, telling me I can't talk to this guy or telling me I can't hang out with my girlfriends at a nightclub or I can't wear this thing. And it's like that's like to use the word controlling is used, like you said, in a manipulative way because having a problem with your partner, your spouse, going to somewhere that is a single person place where people are being picked up, that is a social gathering and wearing inappropriate clothing is not insecure and it's not controlling. It's common sense.

Nicole [00:07:17]: It's disrespectful.

John [00:07:18]: Exactly. Yeah. It's calling out the disrespect. Right. And so I think that's the big thing is that it's getting reframed a lot of times into controlling or insecure. There are behaviors that would be insecure or controlling, but that would be looking like, let's say that you're a husband and your wife, you're telling her she needs to be at this location at this time and you're tracking every single thing that she does, and you're asking her about every single step of the way of what she's doing. And you're controlling exactly what clothes that she wears at any given time or who that she talks to outside of the basic guidance that we're saying here, like the rules that make sense. And really, I think in order to be controlling, there has to be an emotional consequence side of it to be like, if you don't do this, then I'm going to create an emotional pain for you because you're not doing what I'm telling you to do. You know what I mean? When someone is being controlling, how do you see controlling behavior or is it even something that even exists?

Nicole [00:08:38]: Yeah, I mean, I think controlling is forcing someone to do what you want to do with no regard to them, and then using things like manipulation or other sort of tactics, gaslighting, in order to get what you want.

John [00:08:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:57]: Because you can't handle life going a different way. You have to micromanage every single thing, Right?

John [00:09:04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I think if you're. Maybe that's a good way is if you're micromanaging every single thing. That's more of what you would call controlling versus being concerned where your partner is going to a place that's inappropriate or doing something that is inappropriate or that could risk or jeopardize a relationship.

Nicole [00:09:23]: Yeah, no, I don't. I think it's disrespectful to do the things like. And the people who have a problem with it. It's like, maybe you're not ready to be in a committed relationship if you have a problem with the rules. Because when you want to be in a committed relationship and you want to be, you know, deeply close and intimate with somebody, these rules don't even come into your head. You don't feel restricted.

John [00:09:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:50]: That's what people don't understand. People feel restricted because they've been able to live a single life in a relationship for so long that now they're like, oh, you're making me do all this stuff. Like, if you want to live a single life, go be single. But the thing is, I lived a single life before you came along.

John [00:10:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:09]: I don't miss those things. I don't need to. To go to the club with a bunch of girls. I don't need. I don't care. Like, you can have my exact pinpoint location. That doesn't matter to me. You're my husband. Like, these things don't matter. And if they do matter. Again, there's some other thing going on. You either, like still trying to be single, like, or act single, like in this carefree, like, don't care about anybody but myself way or something. Because that's what I keep trying to say is like, these rules don't feel like rules because you don't bump up against them. When you want to be respectful to your partner and to the relationship.

John [00:10:47]: Yeah. Because it should be radical transparency between you and your partner and you should be doing things that are respectful. Because even if you don't think it's respectful or even if they don't think it's respectful, it can. Or disrespectful. It can still be disrespectful. You know, if, if you're my wife.

Nicole [00:11:04]: Right.

John [00:11:05]: Think about it. Out at a nightclub wearing some skinky dress and someone sees you there and they're like, oh, that's Nicole from Better Than Perfect podcast. Where's John? Oh, he's not there. It's. They're going to think a certain way, like it's disrespectful to me. You know what I'm saying? Because other people will perceive, like, bad things about your spouse. Well, that's because of the image that you're. But yeah, because of the image you're portraying. Right. If you put, you're portraying single people

Nicole [00:11:38]: behavior, you're portraying that you're single, you're wearing something to get attention.

John [00:11:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:44]: And your husband's not there to give you the attention.

John [00:11:46]: Right. That's not like, imagine like if I was at a strip club, right. And then someone sees me there and they're like, oh, isn't that John from the, the podcast? And they're like, where's, where's Nicole? Oh, she's not there. Oh, that's interesting. Like, that's very disrespectful to you.

Nicole [00:12:04]: Right?

John [00:12:04]: Right. Like, it would be even if I wasn't doing anything, which that's already doing something, being here. But like at a bar or something where it was a bunch of single people or women around, like that would. That would someone seeing that would then think less of me or think less of you in that case, how it's disrespectful.

Nicole [00:12:25]: We went to a restaurant at like a country club one time and this guy had a wedding ring on and he's talking to all these bridesmaids because there was like a wedding going on or pre wedding thing. That's disrespectful.

John [00:12:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:40]: Like, I'm not saying you can't have conversations with people. But honestly, you should still not even be engaging with. Sure, talk to the bartender. Or like, if somebody's like, oh, we're just visiting, where should we go? Yada yada, tell them. And then, you know, watch the game or whatever you came there to do. Because you either came there to talk to women or you came there to watch a football game. So go back to watching the football game. But even then, you shouldn't go. It's just input.

John [00:13:09]: If your partner was present and could see the interaction, whatever behavior would be okay then is respectful. And whatever would not be okay then is disrespectful.

Nicole [00:13:21]: I mean, I agree with you, but I would even say I would err. It's respectful to err on the side of.

John [00:13:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:28]: Being as least disrespectful as you can. Because some people are going to sit in here and be like, well, I don't care if my husband is. If I'm there and my husband's talking to some bridesmaids.

John [00:13:38]: But the thing is, like, yeah, you're right, because then. But he should know better.

Nicole [00:13:42]: Right.

John [00:13:42]: Even if you're okay with it, you may be insecure and like, be okay with stuff that you shouldn't be okay with, but he should have more respect for you than you can have for yourself.

Nicole [00:13:51]: You should err on the side. That's why I'm saying, like, if someone asks you a question, don't be rude. You can be like, yeah, go check out this place. But then talk to. Talk to another guy at the bar. Go like, move to a different spot or go home.

John [00:14:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:03]: You know what I mean? Like, so again, like, logically, a lot of things don't make sense. Well, they shouldn't talking to you.

John [00:14:13]: Get out of here.

Nicole [00:14:13]: Get you my name tattooed on their forehead.

John [00:14:19]: But, but I mean, you already got your. On your, your face on my underwear. So.

Nicole [00:14:24]: Yeah, just wait till I change all your underwear to have my face on it.

John [00:14:28]: Yeah, but I think it's worth going through some of the things again just to, to talk about why each one is like, not controlling and is. Makes common sense.

Nicole [00:14:38]: But having my face on your underwear control.

John [00:14:42]: Only if you make me wear that underwear. Only that underwear. Yeah, but you're like, you can only wear this.

Nicole [00:14:48]: It's a little possessive, I guess.

John [00:14:52]: I like it.

Nicole [00:14:53]: So, yeah, you want all your underwear to have my face on.

John [00:14:57]: That's right. But there's some other joke in there. I want face near all my underwear.

Nicole [00:15:04]: Oh, okay. Also, but yeah, so I think, like, the people who have, like, a problem with this. There's some other problems.

John [00:15:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:14]: You know what I mean?

John [00:15:17]: Look at locations. You should have them on. That's transparency.

Nicole [00:15:21]: Yeah.

John [00:15:21]: It's not controlling to want to know where your spouse is at all times. Like, it's. It's transparency because we have the technology to do it, so why not? Like, it's. It's transparency. That's. Yeah, it's reasonable.

Nicole [00:15:34]: And if you don't want it, that's suspicious.

John [00:15:36]: It is suspicious because. What are you hiding? What is the reason People like, oh, well, what if I'm going to the store to get them a gift? Okay, then just say, don't look at my location for five minutes or whatever. Or don't even say anything. Like, big deal. That's a little trade off that you make.

Nicole [00:15:49]: The thing is, I have your location and I only look at it when, like, I'm concerned that you're not back in a time frame or something.

John [00:15:57]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:58]: Like, and I can tell you, like, on my hand, in like the past six months, maybe even a year, how many times I've even looked at it. Like, it's there in case I want to, but it's not like I look at it every single day.

John [00:16:13]: Yeah, but it's a reasonable thing. Like if you're in a relationship and someone says, I want to turn our locations on. Right. Again, I guess. Okay, maybe you can make the argument for controlling. If they say, I want you to turn your location on and not okay. Now I could actually say, okay, that feels controlling. That feels kind of controlling. I would say. Then I could give you that. Right. But if someone is saying, I would like to both of us turn our locations on. Yeah, that's not controlling.

Nicole [00:16:43]: And both of us not go on girl or guy trips and both of us not have friends of the opposite sex and both of us have access to each other's phones and whatever.

John [00:16:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:53]: How can you think that that's. Yes, if it's one way, sure. Yeah. That is controlling. That's. That's just weird. Like, you should not take that bet anyway. Like, why are you giving all your information? The person's not. Like, that's suspicious. That's grounds for removal, in my opinion, anyway. Yeah, but I've said this in the other episodes where we talked about this. That should make you feel like the person that you're with cares about you and wants to respect the relationship. They're also giving something up. You're not just giving it up yourself

John [00:17:22]: and cares about the relationship. Right. Because the thing is, the fundamental argument that we get into people with is about the subject, is that they think they can just implicitly trust their partner. And because of that, that you should be able to. Otherwise you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone. But the thing is, is that even the best people fall. They get temptation, they fall into sin. They, like, make a mistake. They do something that they regret. But the only way that that happens is when you're put into the circumstances that create. That allow that to happen.

Nicole [00:17:54]: And so, well, it's like accountability for your relationship.

John [00:17:58]: Right? The best way of putting yourself in those situations. You know, when I. When I would coach people about, like, weight loss and dieting and stuff, I would always be like, okay, get rid of all the junk food you have in your cabinets and your refrigerator. Go throw it all away. Right? Sometimes you might need to destroy it, not just put it in the trash can, because you. You might dig.

Nicole [00:18:19]: You know, this is the first time I've heard of that. Well, not the first time. One of our friends did this, like, on Sunday. And I was shocked. I did not know that people dig in the trash for food.

John [00:18:34]: Hey, I've done.

Nicole [00:18:35]: I guess I'm a germaphobe enough where I'm like, if it's in the trash,

John [00:18:38]: I've done it for cigarettes before. Where I, like, threw away my cigarettes. This is a long time ago. And then I was like, damn, I really wanted a cigarette. And then I go in there, so I had to, like, break them in half. At one point, I'm like, okay. But then it's like. Then you're, like, looking for the little piece of the thing, you know? So anyway, wow. The point is. The point is that if you're at

Nicole [00:19:02]: that level also, like, you've gone a little far.

John [00:19:07]: But, you know, the point is that when you don't have any of that stuff around now, if you want to get some junk food, you have to. Well, now you can Uber eats. But before then, you could drive. You have to drive, get in your car and go somewhere and do it right? So the chances of that happening are much, much less. You could still do. Right. But it's the same thing with violating the relationship. Maybe you, you know, whatever definition you have for cheating, but it could be flirting with someone, right? It's like, you know, or sending the attack a text that is not an appropriate text to someone who's just a friend, but you were just kind of joking or like, but it went there, or. You know what I'm saying? It's like, these are all the little slippages. I'm not saying that you, you're just straight up cheating with someone, but it, but it leads to that. And so it's like, it's like you

Nicole [00:19:58]: gotta nip it in the bud before it even starts.

John [00:20:00]: Like allowing all this stuff in your relationship, like girls night out, guys night out, all this stuff. And having your location off, it's like having a bunch of junk food in your cabinets. Right. And you're like, okay, I'm on a diet, I'm not gonna eat the junk food perhaps. Right. But you're more likely to get tempted. And yeah, you should still resist the temptation, but why put the temptation there in the first place? If you're living your life in such a way that you avoid doing anything that would be disrespectful to your partner, you're being transparent with your location, which creates accountability for you as well. And you're not going to places guys night out or girls night out. And you're not texting people of the opposite sex. Like if you are, you're showing your partner. Maybe that was. The other one is like always show any conversations with the opposite sex, but you're not having a friend of the opposite sex that you're having private conversations with.

Nicole [00:20:49]: Right.

John [00:20:50]: And meeting in private places or you know, that you're not maintaining that relationship, then you're less likely to fall into these, these situations where you may do something that you regret and so.

Nicole [00:21:05]: Or your partner does.

John [00:21:06]: Yeah, exactly. So it's better to just be protective of the relationship in that way. And having those guidelines that are, that are go both ways. It's not like you're one way enforcing it. You're saying I'm also not going to do this.

Nicole [00:21:20]: Yeah, you know, I agree.

John [00:21:21]: Oh, that was, maybe that was. The other one is no public, the public Instagram accounts or public social media accounts. Well, yeah, but unless you have a business, right? Unless you just like.

Nicole [00:21:30]: Yeah, but you're, you are your business. So it's, it is a little loopholey,

John [00:21:35]: but you're transparent mindset, you know? Yeah. So but you have access to everything and like, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, but, but, but that's also, you know, like because some people have their public Instagrams for attention.

Nicole [00:21:50]: I mean, I would say that people do all of this stuff somewhat for attention.

John [00:21:54]: For attention, yeah. Yeah. And what happens when you get the attention? Then what happens?

Nicole [00:21:59]: So that's why you really better have some self control.

John [00:22:02]: So it's better to not get the attention. Better not to seek out the attention to do those things.

Nicole [00:22:05]: Well. And if you're in a good relationship, you don't want to. I guess that's the point I keep trying to hammer here is that you don't want attention from anyone except your partner, your husband, your boyfriend, whatever. Like again, if you're bumping up against these things, if you're like, no, I would never have these rules.

John [00:22:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:25]: Then you should be single.

John [00:22:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:27]: You still haven't gotten the singleness out of your system.

John [00:22:31]: Right? Yeah, but then when someone proposes these things again, like I said, it's not controlling, it's not insecure. Like to tell someone that's insecure or controlling because they want to do something that's respectful to each other or protect the relationship is as long as it's both ways. Yeah, it has to be.

Nicole [00:22:49]: Obviously they're like both ways. All right, here's some rules for you, but not me. I'm going to the strip club every night. But you're staying here.

John [00:22:57]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:22:59]: And I'm have your location, make sure you don't leave.

John [00:23:02]: Exactly. See, that's, that's the, that's. I think that's what people think in their head.

Nicole [00:23:06]: Right.

John [00:23:07]: But that's, that's not what we're advocating at all. Which is, is weird. But I, I just never understand people that are arguing against this. Right. Like, it's like, but, but I get, I guess they make their justifications. Like I, I hear a lot of times women like, oh, it's fine if I go to the, the club. We're not like guys, we're just going out to have a good time, which

Nicole [00:23:25]: I do believe that. But again, it's like if you're dressing provocatively and like you're going to a place where a lot of. And it's like, yeah, that's like you're still putting yourself. I do think women have more self control in instance. But again, you're adding alcohol that and like impairs your judgment and it's just not smart.

John [00:23:46]: Well, and also like you, you know, it may be something small. Like it starts off like all these things start off small, right. It's not like people just come up with these ideas that are just full on, cheat on their partner. Like it starts off with, you go to the club, you're just hanging out with your girlfriends, but you want attention, right? You don't. You're not going to entertain the attention, but you want the attention.

Nicole [00:24:11]: Well, that's why you go to a club, right?

John [00:24:13]: Like Exactly. If you're honest, like, you're wearing. You're not wearing. You're not wearing sweatpants.

Nicole [00:24:18]: You go to the club to have fun and get attention.

John [00:24:22]: Right. And then, so then the wanting attention is not enough at some point. So then you're just doing some innocent flirting.

Nicole [00:24:31]: Or you start acting like you're single again because you're in a single environment.

John [00:24:34]: But you're not going to cheat. But you're just innocently flirting like some guy talked to you, so you talk to him back. You're just having a good time. I know it's cheating, but I'm just saying, like, how people rationalize it. And then what's the next level from that? Oh, I let this guy buy me a drink. Not a big deal. Okay. You know what I'm saying? Like, it escalates.

Nicole [00:24:52]: I understand what you're saying.

John [00:24:53]: You start from something that is, like, you think is innocent, but when you put yourself into those environments, then you're creating all these opportunities.

Nicole [00:25:01]: I understand what you're saying. I do think, again, I stand on the fact that I do think majority of women could go in that situation and not do something bad. I think that none of them should do it, though.

John [00:25:16]: Right. Right.

Nicole [00:25:17]: Because, I mean, there was a time when you were. And I had, like, broken up on one of those times, and I went out with my friends because, like, this was also, like, the second time we, like, we're on a break thing. And I was like, okay, I'm not doing this anymore. Like, this, like, he's not going to break up with me for a third time. I'm going to get back out there. And I went out a lot when I was single.

John [00:25:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:38]: And I went out with my friends, and it just wasn't the same because I had been with you for months. And I was like, this is what I want, a relationship. I don't. I don't want to be thrown back into the single world. I don't want to come out here and be single.

John [00:25:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:54]: I don't even want to come out here and act single because I don't want to be single.

John [00:25:57]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:58]: Like, and so that's. I guess the part that I don't understand is people in relationships that they say are good and say they want to be in, but are acting single.

John [00:26:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:07]: Because, like, they either don't really want to be in that relationship and they're settling or something, and that's why they're trying to live both lives, live double lives of, like, pretending to be single and.

John [00:26:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:19]: You Know, being in a relationship still, like, I don't know what it is, but. Or they didn't get enough single time. They've just jumped from relationship to relationship so they don't know how to, like, that's how they're trying to be single while not being single. I don't know. But all I know is, is my own personal experience. I was single. I had fun when I was single. And I'm sitting here telling you that when I went out, when I was single, yes, the goal was to have fun with my girlfriends, but it was also to get attention. It was also hopefully meet a guy.

John [00:26:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:52]: So I wouldn't be single.

John [00:26:53]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:26:54]: Like. And to, like, go out and look good and, like, get attention and whatever. Like. But when you found someone you want to be with.

John [00:27:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:27:03]: That has to be more than wanting to be single.

John [00:27:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:07]: Because if it's not, then you have other problems. You have validation problems. You have the problem of, like, you need external validation and being with somebody isn't enough for you. You don't feel like that's enough.

John [00:27:19]: And that. And that whole thing will escalate. Because if you need the external validation and you're just getting attention, then the attention won't be enough for you.

Nicole [00:27:26]: Right.

John [00:27:27]: And then it's gonna be the next thing I need to just have a guy flirt with me or whatever. And you know what I'm saying? That's what it's. That's.

Nicole [00:27:32]: Yeah, it spirals.

John [00:27:33]: And even the, you know, the having friends of the opposite sex also is like one where it becomes a slippery slope because you might not have any intentions. They're just a platonic friend. But then what happens when you're having a fight with your partner or spouse and you're relaying the information to them, and now you're just like, in psychotherapy, they have transference. Right. And now they're being your therapist, and now you're developing a connection with them. Someone who you weren't sexually attracted to, or they are attracted to you because there's a reason why they're hanging around you all the time. And so they're looking for an opportunity which is disrespectful to your partner. Or you just go somewhere and people see you together and they don't know that it's a platonic relationship. But now it looks bad on your spouse. It would look if I was sitting anywhere with some.

Nicole [00:28:20]: Well, you can't really say that because at your sister's wedding, people thought that you and your sister were married.

John [00:28:27]: Okay.

Nicole [00:28:30]: We know that's not the case. And we know it's your sister, but it's just funny because even you went somewhere with your sister and people were like, yeah, your brother went with his wife. And I'm like, no, my husband went with a sister.

John [00:28:44]: Yeah, but what I'm saying is.

Nicole [00:28:46]: No, it just proves your point, though, because it can even happen with your sister.

John [00:28:49]: Yeah, if I'm sitting somewhere having lunch with some. Some woman. Right. That's not you. It looks pretty bad. Like people don't know what's going on. Yeah, maybe something bad's going on, maybe not, but they're gonna assume the worst, and it looks bad on you.

Nicole [00:29:02]: Yeah, you can go eat with your sister.

John [00:29:05]: It's different if it's your sister. Like.

Nicole [00:29:07]: Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, it just proves your point, though, that, like, people don't know you.

John [00:29:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:14]: They're gonna think whatever their mind comes up with, and then they could spread rumors and then it get back to you and you know. You know what I mean? What if your partner doesn't know that you're talking to your girlfriend or whatever, your friend that's a girl, you know?

John [00:29:28]: And.

Nicole [00:29:28]: Yeah, that's not good.

John [00:29:30]: However well you think you know yourself, you should not test yourself. You know what I'm saying? Like, we want to believe that, oh, this could never happen to me, or I would never do this thing. Right. And so many people, every single person that's done this thing has at one point said, I would never do this thing.

Nicole [00:29:51]: I'm sure.

John [00:29:51]: And the way that they do this thing is they end up. It's always a little bit at a time. It's a little slippage. It's a little like the line moves just a little bit, you know, and then eventually you find yourself all the way over here. Right. You know, And I mean, and I can speak from experience on that.

Nicole [00:30:10]: Oh, you slippery sloped into what you were doing.

John [00:30:12]: Well, yeah, pretty much. I mean, it became something.

Nicole [00:30:16]: I thought you went full blown, like, balls to the wall, just.

John [00:30:20]: But it was explosion, if I'm. If I'm honest about it. There was small things that I did that as from.

Nicole [00:30:29]: From you went running for, like, attention and like.

John [00:30:31]: Yeah. Or like. Or just like talking to a girl or. You know what I'm saying? Like flirting, whatever, and then getting to a point of like, where now I was all the way over here, way past this line, doing all kinds of crazy, you know, so that's it. But it always starts that way. Even. Even if you just look at like any drug addict, Right?

Nicole [00:30:52]: Yeah.

John [00:30:52]: Who ends up destroying their whole life, they're never like, oh, I decided to just. I just wanted to fall to the wall, let's just do some heroin and just. No, they started with something else or something small or like, you know, they didn't intend to go down this road.

Nicole [00:31:06]: Yeah.

John [00:31:07]: Or they thought they could control it or whatever it was that they thought, you know, like that's how they ended up down, down that road. That's. It's always the path. Like no one ever just goes full in or very few people go full in on, on a, on a wrong path. And that's why like when your partner has a concern about you going out or doing something, to take it seriously and not treat it as controlling.

Nicole [00:31:33]: Yeah. Well, like, and you know, we're adults here.

John [00:31:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:37]: You know what's controlling and what's not controlling, Right?

John [00:31:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:40]: Like again, if it's one sided, it's probably controlling, right?

John [00:31:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:46]: If it's not one sided and it makes logical sense, even if it. You're pissed off because you can't go out clubbing anymore with your girlfriends. You need to understand what the person's actually trying to do. Like show you that they care about you.

John [00:32:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:01]: And that they care about the relationship. And it's not supposed to be punishment. It's not supposed to be these things. If you think that then again, you need to be single, you're not ready to be in any sort of relationship.

John [00:32:12]: Right. Right.

Nicole [00:32:12]: Because again, these, these are not far fetched. We don't ever bump up against these things.

John [00:32:17]: Right. Exactly. We're so, so clear of it that it's never going to be a problem.

Nicole [00:32:22]: Right. We never had a problem with any of these things.

John [00:32:25]: In order for either of us to cheat on each other, it would require an extreme effort of going, of going driving out across the state to buy the fireworks. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not in the pantry. You want to get that snack food

Nicole [00:32:42]: so you can't be like, I just tripped and fell into her nether.

John [00:32:46]: It would require like some real effort to do that. And so that creates a very big bubble of protection. Not that I feel like either of us need it.

Nicole [00:32:56]: No.

John [00:32:57]: But at the same time, it's better to have that bubble of protection and not to assume that you don't need it. Like, because it's very risky to, to think that you can just fly through life and the problems that other people have, you're not going to have. That's a very risky Proposition.

Nicole [00:33:15]: It's like a house for your relationship.

John [00:33:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:19]: It protects you.

John [00:33:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:20]: You don't. You're not like, oh, I'm. I'm in jail. You're in your house.

John [00:33:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:25]: That's what it should feel like. It's not jail. It's your house. Because you're like, there's this big bubble of protection, and we don't ever need to use it. That's why it feels like there is no bubble of protection. Because there's. It's things that we would never even do because we respect each other and we expect. We respect the relationship so much.

John [00:33:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:44]: That it doesn't feel confining.

John [00:33:46]: Yeah. You don't feel the walls if you're getting close to them.

Nicole [00:33:49]: Exactly.

John [00:33:50]: It's only if you're bumping against the walls all the time, then you feel the walls. That's the thing is, like, we don't feel the walls because they're there, but we don't even come close to the them because we don't. Wouldn't want to.

Nicole [00:34:01]: Right.

John [00:34:01]: But sometimes having the walls also helps you to not come close to them because you understand why they're there.

Nicole [00:34:06]: People like having guidelines.

John [00:34:08]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:34:09]: Is less uncertainty, and that's how it should be looked at. Like, it's less uncertainty in your relationship. You know what is respectful and what's not respectful? You know what? You can't do what you shouldn't do if you want to be in this relationship. Like, that doesn't mean that you constantly run into these things. And if you do constantly run into these things, then again, you have some other things going on. And I know I've said that in the past few episodes, but it's true. Like, it's less of a them problem if they're saying we should both do this to respect our relationship and protect it in order to make it so that we make it to the long run without hurting each other.

John [00:34:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:53]: If you have a problem with that, that is your problem.

John [00:34:56]: Right. And it really is also, like, because of the difference in which. Because you said about the nightclub and stuff. But there is a difference in which men fall into temptation versus how women do. Right. And so, like, we talked about this before with bachelor parties and bachelorette parties. And like, a lot of times on the bachelor party, men are looking to.

Nicole [00:35:15]: Oh, they're on dating apps. Like, yeah.

John [00:35:18]: So they're like, oh, we're going to have a lot of fun. We're going to have this. You know, Whereas a lot of times when with bachelorette parties, women are not necessarily looking for trouble, but it just happens.

Nicole [00:35:28]: Still find it.

John [00:35:28]: It just happens. The guy was amazing and like, I drank too much and I didn't intend to. So they're not going out with the intention, but it still happens.

Nicole [00:35:38]: Shitty.

John [00:35:39]: It is less shitty, but it still happens.

Nicole [00:35:40]: It still happens.

John [00:35:41]: But then.

Nicole [00:35:42]: But it's very shitty when guys are downloading dating apps.

John [00:35:46]: So. So the person really in the relationship who should be setting all of these boundaries and rules should be the man. Because the reason being is because women in their naivety in this area will think that nothing will happen. They're okay. Like, they don't need these rules because they can go to a nightclub by themselves or with their friends and whatever, and they're not going to cause any. They're not going to do anything. Or they can have a guy friend

Nicole [00:36:14]: that they only like as a friend

John [00:36:15]: and the guy friend. Right. And nothing's gonna happen. Yeah, right. Because they're not intending for things to happen.

Nicole [00:36:22]: Right.

John [00:36:22]: Where they know that a guy is more likely to be like, searching it out. Right.

Nicole [00:36:25]: Yeah.

John [00:36:26]: But that's why they might say, oh, we don't need these rules. But it's still a protection because they're more likely to fall into it by accident. By not. When I say accident, I mean by not intentionally seeking it out. But it just happens.

Nicole [00:36:42]: Right.

John [00:36:43]: Because that's the whole thing with pickup and game anyways. You're, you're, you're, you're basically creating a situation.

Nicole [00:36:51]: Yeah, for the evening.

John [00:36:52]: Exactly. Like she's not expecting that or planning that the guy's planning on getting laid. That's why he went out. The woman, not necessarily playing. If she wanted to get late, she would have been out of there five minutes ago because she just shows up and then disappears. Right. Like, like she's not trying to like, get laid, but the guy somehow convinces her, changes her mind, romances her that now she's on board with that. So that's the whole thing is that most of the resistance comes from women on creating these rules. Because they don't. Because when I say naive, I don't say this is like a bad thing. But they're naive to this because they don't understand that they're more susceptible to this happening to them without them realizing it. Where guys are more intentional in, in some of the things that they shouldn't be doing.

Nicole [00:37:40]: And so, I mean, it just makes no sense that if you're like, oh, I wouldn't do that anyway, why you wouldn't give it up anyway then, right?

John [00:37:47]: Exactly. Yeah. Well, because. Because again, the, the argument is, well, I just like to dance. I just like to like, go with my.

Nicole [00:37:53]: Go to Madhouse.

John [00:37:54]: I don't need to.

Nicole [00:37:55]: Yeah, shameless.

John [00:37:56]: But. But I don't need to. Like, you know, Madhouse is more fun

Nicole [00:38:00]: than the clubs, honestly, because you don't have to worry about creepy guys being

John [00:38:03]: like, hey, girl, But. But, you know, they'll say, well, I just want to be able to hang out with my friend. Or we're just going on a girls trip. Like, it's, it's like, it's ridiculous to be like, controlling about this or to be, you know, we're just going to the bar, we're just going to the nightclub. We just dance. Like, you know, so they're more likely to make that kind of adjust. And when they're making that justification, it can be honest. But a man should recognize that, okay, even though she might have good intentions, it's still putting her in harm's way. It's still dangerous situation for her to be in because there are going to be guys hitting on her. There are going to be temptations. There are situations in which it doesn't look good, but it can. Cause.

Nicole [00:38:47]: I mean, I view it this way based on what you just said. Right. Like I said, feel like a woman who could do all the things that we're talking about and not have a problem.

John [00:38:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:38:58]: But why would I want to give you rules that I don't put on myself?

John [00:39:04]: Right?

Nicole [00:39:05]: Like we're a team, right? I know I would not do those things even if I was allowed to do them.

John [00:39:10]: Right. Well, I could say the same thing, though. I know I wouldn't do those things.

Nicole [00:39:14]: But, but I'm saying that that's also why we have the stance that we have is because these don't even feel like rules because we wouldn't do them anyway. But we're also not trying to hold on to like, oh, but I need to go to the club with my girlfriends. Like, I need to go to the bar with my guy friends. We're not clinging to these things.

John [00:39:33]: Yeah, you can't tell me what to do. I can live my life and do my things I shouldn't. A relationship shouldn't mean that I can't have fun.

Nicole [00:39:43]: If your idea of having fun is all the single people things, then go be single.

John [00:39:49]: Right. Well, and. And the thing about it too is that it's like the other argument we get is like, well, I should be able to hang out with my friends.

Nicole [00:39:57]: Yeah, go to dinner.

John [00:39:58]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:39:58]: Go do normal things.

John [00:40:00]: Go golfing, go whatever. Yeah. Whatever you want to do. Like have a. Have a book club or whatever.

Nicole [00:40:06]: If you can only have fun by going out and drinking.

John [00:40:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:10]: Or going out and putting yourself in precarious situations that are disrespectful to your relationship, then you need to reeval what fun is in your life.

John [00:40:20]: Yeah. Because you can have like even the same thing. It's like, you know, I think it's important for guys to have guy. Guy friends in their life and like guys. Guys night. Right. But it doesn't have to be out.

Nicole [00:40:34]: Right.

John [00:40:34]: It could be go to each other's house. Yeah. We're going to hang out, we're going to go to the gym, we're going to go for a hike. We're going to have guy time to talk and women also to have that time. But it doesn't have to be in an inappropriate place.

Nicole [00:40:47]: Right.

John [00:40:47]: That's. That's the whole contention with it. Because. So.

Nicole [00:40:50]: Yeah.

John [00:40:51]: Yeah. So I feel like the people that argue against this just are like, not. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Nicole [00:40:57]: No.

John [00:40:57]: It's a minor set of restrictions which you shouldn't even feel because they shouldn't matter that much.

Nicole [00:41:04]: Right.

John [00:41:04]: You know, like, I can understand, like maybe where it's like a bachelorette party or bachelor party and then you turn it down because you don't do that in your relationship. But that's the minor thing to give up in order to be respectful to your partner.

Nicole [00:41:23]: Right. And your friends should respect that decision too.

John [00:41:25]: Yeah. And just even in general, I mean, if more people thought that way, less people would have bachelor parties and bachelorette parties, because those are just on the whole, not good ideas. Right. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:41:36]: It's like pretending to be single one last time when you haven't been single anyway and you're about to be lockdown.

John [00:41:43]: Yeah. It's a very good way to mess up your life.

Nicole [00:41:47]: Yeah.

John [00:41:47]: Like, it's not necessarily going to happen, but it. But it has happened. We know people it's happened to.

Nicole [00:41:52]: That's true.

John [00:41:53]: And it can happen. And it's a very. It's like a very dangerous thing to do Right. Before you're gonna get married. So it's just not a good idea. Like whoever came up with that bad idea, you know, have a joint celebration, whatever. Have a party. Like, you can celebrate that you're gonna get married. You can even hang out with your guy friends or girlfriends. But in a. In a. You don't have to call A bachelorette party or bachelor party in an appropriate place.

Nicole [00:42:17]: Right.

John [00:42:18]: You know, it doesn't have to be in Vegas at the bar, at the nightclub or. Or whatever. So. So these are just bad ideas in general that.

Nicole [00:42:26]: True.

John [00:42:26]: That people are holding on to. So.

Nicole [00:42:30]: Yep. I agree.

John [00:42:31]: Yeah. I think that pretty much covers all the things I think. I mean, what are all the. Are there any other arguments that you.

Nicole [00:42:39]: No, but I was going to say, if you have. After everything we've said, you have a argument that you think is legitimate that isn't the things that we've already said, let us know. Maybe we'll do a whole nother episode

John [00:42:52]: or come on the podcast. If you're in San Diego, come and debate us on the podcast. Because, I mean, not even debate. I mean, we want to hear it. Like, we'll listen and talk it out. And if you have something that's actually reasonable, we'll change our minds. If you can change your minds, we're open to being our mind. It's just that from all the angles we've looked at this, I've never seen any argument that holds any water to what we're saying. It just. It makes logic sense and living it.

Nicole [00:43:19]: You don't feel restricted, right? Like, you really don't. Like, I'm not just saying that because you're here. If I felt restricted, I would say it.

John [00:43:27]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:27]: I don't feel restricted. Like I said, I don't even look at your location.

John [00:43:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:32]: Even though I have it all the time, I don't need to.

John [00:43:35]: I think. I think people that do feel restricted is because as a society, we've normalized a lot of the stuff that shouldn't be. So they feel like I'm entitled to do this kind of stuff.

Nicole [00:43:45]: Right.

John [00:43:46]: Even though it's disrespectful, even though it's not cool.

Nicole [00:43:49]: Just because it's normalized doesn't mean it's normal.

John [00:43:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:52]: Like that it's the correct thing to do.

John [00:43:54]: Yeah. And I hear it all the time. Like, almost every time that we talk to people that we know and there's an issue with infidelity or whatever, it always started out from one of the things.

Nicole [00:44:08]: Yeah. And we're always like, put the rules.

John [00:44:10]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:11]: Put the rules in line.

John [00:44:13]: Yeah. And it always started out as something that seemed like an innocent thing, but then look what happened. It got to this because even things like. Like for instance, here's a good one. I won't call out a name, but that is a recent one that we had just dealt with is like, let's say that you work somewhere and your boss is of the opposite sex and you're texting your boss about work stuff. Well, if you have a rule that you show all of the conversations between opposite sex with your. With your partner. Right. Then you're not going to have a problem there. Right, right. That's. I think that's important. Right. It just made me realize I have one to show you. Just work related, but just, you know, just because. But that's.

Nicole [00:44:59]: But sometimes they're not work related, though.

John [00:45:03]: What are not work related sometimes? Oh, the ones that I show you. Yeah, that I show you. Because they're. Yeah, because. Because people message me crazy shit, so. Yeah, but.

Nicole [00:45:11]: And I've gotten some crazy shit sometimes too, so.

John [00:45:13]: But my point is, is that like there's situations that we know of where that's escalated into inappropriate situations.

Nicole [00:45:22]: Yeah.

John [00:45:22]: But it's because it happened in secrecy.

Nicole [00:45:25]: Right.

John [00:45:25]: If you have the simple safeguard of, even though you don't need it, of show the texts that come from the opposite sex, then it protects you from that ever happening.

Nicole [00:45:36]: That's true.

John [00:45:37]: You know what I mean? Because it's not something that you intend to happen. But then it happens because it's. Little by little it slips. You get sent a dirty joke and then you laugh about the dirty joke and then you send a dirty joke or whatever it is or a meme or something like that. And then now you're having sexual conversations with your boss.

Nicole [00:45:53]: Yeah.

John [00:45:53]: And that's not good.

Nicole [00:45:55]: No, that's never good. Anyway, even if you're single, don't get involved with people that you work with. Not a good idea.

John [00:46:00]: Yeah, yeah, but I, but like I said, I don't know of any, any good argument against what we're.

Nicole [00:46:06]: No, but if you have one.

John [00:46:07]: Yeah, I would be open to hearing.

Nicole [00:46:09]: Yeah, we're open to hearing. All right, time to go. I'm hungry.

John [00:46:14]: Okay. Yeah, I'm hungry too. All right, that's it for this week. If you have a question for us or argument or food again, you can email us, you can meal us, you can mail us. Mail us at betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com and check out our website at betterthanperfectpod.com Leave us a

Nicole [00:46:35]: review, like, and subscribe.

John [00:46:38]: That's right. That's waiting for it. See you next week.