John [00:00:00]: You have to forgive every time I do a talk. If you haven't forgiven someone for something, raise your hand. And everyone raised their hand. Why are you holding onto something that's only going to hurt you and doesn't help you in any way? Like you're carrying that load every day. Why not let it go? You have to identify what is that hurt and what is that hurt doing for you in order to let go of it. We believe it's doing something for us. It's not really doing something for us, but we have to identify that. I'm not forgiving because this hurt that I experienced won't happen again if I remember this hurt.

Nicole [00:00:25]: Right, right.

John [00:00:26]: That's a big one that people do. Whatever it is, those are all false. It's not true. The holding onto the hurt does not help. You know, it's like. It's like having a thorn in your foot. Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the better than Perfect podcast where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect podcast relationship.

Nicole [00:00:59]: And it's casual Friday.

John [00:01:00]: It's for John. It's a gun show. Gun show today. Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:04]: He wanted to wear his tank top today cuz it.

John [00:01:06]: Cuz it's so better than perfect colors.

Nicole [00:01:08]: It is.

John [00:01:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:10]: So but we're normally a little bit more elevated in our attire. But we'll let you have a casual Friday or two.

John [00:01:16]: Casual. Yeah. But yeah, today we're going to be talking about resentment again. Yeah. But how to. More, more. So we've talked about kind of how it's destructive, the most destructive thing to relationship, but more so how to actually get rid of the resentment. Right. What do you do when it builds up, you know, where does it come from? That type of thing.

Nicole [00:01:41]: So, yeah, that'll be good. Because I feel like a lot of people who are in that really resentment phase, they've let it gone so far, they think that they can't get out of it. They almost like paint that person in a different way.

John [00:01:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:00]: But if they really uncovered their resentment and why they feel the way that they feel, they'll realize that this person probably didn't change very much, if at all.

John [00:02:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:12]: Your perception and your feelings have painted this new picture.

John [00:02:17]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:02:17]: That you are continuing to view your partner through.

John [00:02:21]: Yeah. Because you wonder like, how do people go from, you know, because everyone who gets a divorce. Right. That they're like, now they Hate their spouse. They're like such a horrible person. At some point, they had been so enamored with them that they stood up in front of their friends and family and made vows and that they're going to love them forever. I mean, they were in love. It wasn't just they were attracted to this person. You had a relationship for a long enough period of time where you dated or whatever, and then you proposed and then you were engaged and then you got married and you went through with the whole thing. So you can't just be like, oh, they're a horrible person. I didn't realize it. That's not what happened. What happened was that you started to build resentment. And so my, My thesis, my theory is that every single relationship always falls apart for the same reason, which is resentment.

Nicole [00:03:13]: I mean, it makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. And I mean, are there multiple ways that people resent people, or do you feel like it's mostly things that are left unsaid that brew in somebody and then they get feelings about it and then they project those feelings onto their partner and then they start viewing their partner differently?

John [00:03:35]: Yeah, I think it's. I mean, we can go back to the kind of the analogy that I have for the brushing your teeth. Right. So it's. It, you know, tartar, automatic, not automatically, but tartar. Tartar ultimately causes cavities and tooth decay. Right. It's the tartar that builds up in your. In your teeth. And so you have to brush your teeth and floss your teeth, go to the dentist. Right. And so in a relationship, that tartar that builds up is resentment. And how does that build up? It comes from not resolving things. Just like, you know, when you eat food, you build up stuff in your. In your mouth and your teeth, and you have to brush your teeth and whatever and floss and go to the dentist to get rid of that. And you're on a daily basis. You need to floss and brush your teeth on a daily basis in the relationship. If you have hurts that happen, unresolved conflicts that you're kind of brushing under the rug, then that's building up over time that hardens into tartar. Because what ends up happening is that if me and you get into a conflict in that day, I remember what it is, and I remember what's going on, and we could resolve it, but five days from now or a week from now, it's still there, but I don't even consciously know what it is anymore because I forgot about the thing, but it never got actually resolved. So it's still buried. It's there. And that's the danger of it, is that you have to be able to resolve these things while you can. And so again, that builds up the tartar in the relationship and then eventually if you don't have that tartar removed, then it ends up becoming decay. And that's where that bitterness, it becomes bitterness, that resentment becomes a root of bitterness. And then that bitterness grows and then you go from love to hate, despise. Right. You go from wanting to be with this person and overlooking all of the quirks that they have to those quirks being really annoying things that you, you hate. And it's because that resentment has, has grown just like, like tooth decay.

Nicole [00:05:36]: So yeah, I mean, I'm glad you said hurt and conflict because I think when we talked about this last time, we more so came at it from like unresolved conflict or poorly resolved conflict.

John [00:05:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:48]: But I think it's important that issues that you have that you suppress also eat away at the relationship and cause resentment and cause you to view your partner in different way. And honestly I would say that the things that we repress is what really causes the resentment. Because like, yes, even if the conflict is not fully resolved, right. Like if it's left open ended, you might be still hurt by it, but you feel like, well, we're not getting anywhere with resolving this so I need to just move on. You don't really move on because obviously it's bothered you. So in my opinion, I think where resentment grows the most is the things that we hold on to that we think either we'll just forget about them, we'll let them go, and we never let them go. We suppress them, whatever, we shove it under the rug. Those things is what builds the plaque and then decays the relationship. Because like, yes, poor conflict resolution will also harm your relationship.

John [00:06:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:56]: However, it's not even, it's the fact that it's unresolved and that there's still hurt there that is really what's damaging everything. Like, because the people that are like, oh well this, I give up, like, or they silent treatment or whatever, like all those feelings are still there.

John [00:07:16]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:07:17]: And so you're just holding on to them rather than being able to express them, which obviously is where the conversation and like conflict is still part of the problem. I'm not saying that it's not. If you can't resolve your problems, if you can't resolve your conflict.

John [00:07:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:34]: You will still get the resentment. But really where the resentment comes from and I think this is important because I don't think we talked about this last time, is that it's from the things that we hide within ourselves, because we talked about sweeping things under the rug, but really it's sweeping things under your personal rug.

John [00:07:52]: Yeah. You're not dealing with the things you need to deal with. You're not being vulnerable and bringing them up. It's like if you've ever had a tea bag in your tea, and then have you ever had it where the string comes off and then the tea, and now you got to either get a spoon or put your hands into the hot water to pull the tea bag out. So when the hurt happens, right, you've got the string to be able to pull it out. But then if you waited some time, then you lose that string and you can't get it easily anymore. You know what I'm saying? That's your analogy, but that's how I think of it, is that it's now becomes resentment where you don't even know why you're upset. Right. It's like when people are triggered. It's like, whoa, why did I get triggered? Yeah. Because you had something that you didn't resolve in the past, and now this thing is triggering you. You don't even know why it's making you feel this way, having this reaction. It's because you lost the string to the teabag. It's floating around in your tea. And you're right. And what it ultimately is, is it's some kind of hurt that you had that you didn't express, you didn't deal with. You're like, oh, I can just deal with this myself. Or it's not that big of a deal, but it was a big of a deal. Or even if it's not that big of a deal, you might as well at least then talk about it so that you know. Because if it really isn't a big of a deal, then it's not going to bother you. But if it's bothering you and you don't talk about it, it's going to become a problem. You're going to lose that string to that teabag, and then it's going to be harder to. You're going to have to fish it out at some point.

Nicole [00:09:27]: Yeah.

John [00:09:27]: It's going to be harder to find when you don't know what you're looking for.

Nicole [00:09:29]: Well, here's why I say let it go in quotes. Right. Because let's use your tea analogy.

John [00:09:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:36]: To truly let it go would to be just drink Your tea with the teabag in it, right?

John [00:09:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:40]: Like, you're just. It's there. You're hurt, but you're. You feel it and you move on. Like, you see that. That you've lost the string, you've accepted it, and you're going to drink the tea with the teabag anyway. Yeah, that is really letting it go. But most people don't really let things go. So that's why I say let it go. Because they're. Let it go is that they are like, I'm not gonna deal with this, or they think they're gonna move on, but they hold on to that. They hold on to the hurt.

John [00:10:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:11]: They keep it in there. They don't really let it go. Cause they might need it. They might need it in a later conflict. They might need it to justify their behaviors. They might need it when their resentment does get super bad. So they can add that to the list of why they wanna leave. They. They feel like they need the hurt, but instead of talking about it.

John [00:10:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:36]: They just file it away.

John [00:10:38]: Exactly. And that. And that. Okay, so that kind of segues perfectly into the main thing that we're going to talk about, which is how to get rid of the resentment. Right. So if you have this resentment and if you haven't been resolving things, then you're going to have some kind of resentment built up in your relationship. Right. And especially the way to know this is if you. If something your partner does annoys you, if you're ever like, I just need a break from my partner. Okay, red flag. Those are resentment. That's why you would say that. Because when you're in love and before you had any kind of resentment, you're like, I want to spend every moment together. If you're not feeling that way, then there's resentment. And so the analogy that I use is it's like you've got a bottle, right? And it's filled with resentment. And the cork in that bottle that's keeping it in is unforgiveness. And no matter how hard you try to shake out that bottle, Right. Trying to get rid of the resentment. Like, I'm not resenting anymore. I choose to not resent. It doesn't matter. Because the cork in the bottle is unforgiveness.

Nicole [00:11:38]: Keeping it all in there.

John [00:11:39]: And we did a good episode on forgiveness, which you should go watch. Yeah. If you haven't watched that, it's one of our best episodes, I think, most important episodes. And you have to uncork that bottle by forgiving, because until you forgive, you're not gonna be able to get rid of the resentment. And that brings up exactly what you're saying, which is what causes unforgiveness. I had to think about this as I was talking to someone about this, because it's like we've talked about that you should forgive before and why. And it does no benefit to you to hold on to hurt. It's not gonna help you, right? And so. But the core of why you would not forgive someone is because you're holding onto a hurt that's serving you in some way or that you think serves you in some way. Because otherwise, why wouldn't you forgive? Because when you ask a person, well, why would you not just forgive? And it's like, well, because they hurt me, right? And they're holding onto the hurt. They're using this in order to potentially to protect themselves, to get back at someone, to remember that loss. Because they find their identity, they find their significance in the hurt. Somehow they're using that hurt, and they need to hold onto it, and they don't want to let go of it. And so in order to really get rid of the resentment, you have to start with forgiveness. And in order to forgive, you can't just say, I forgive, right? Because as we've talked about, too, forgive is forgive and forget. It means their true definition of forgiveness means it's as if it never happened. If you owe money to the bank and the bank forgives your debt, they don't come back to you later and say, oh, remember when we forgave your debt, or you still owe us some money, it's like it never happened. That's what the true definition of forgiveness is. So it's forgive and forget. And so the only way that you're going to be able to do that is to let go of the hurt. And so what is it that you're holding onto? You have to identify, what is this hurt behind the unforgiveness? And. And how can I let go of it? Because again, if you ask someone, why aren't you forgiving someone? They're always going to say, it's always going to come back to something that they did, some kind of hurt that they're holding onto and that they won't let go.

Nicole [00:13:50]: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that it starts, in my opinion, if you realize you have a lot of resentment towards your partner, like you said, they're starting to annoy you or you want to spend less time with them, or you're noticing those things, the first thing you have to do is check under your own rug, because, like you said.

John [00:14:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:10]: There's some sort of hurt that you're holding on to. There's a lot of feelings that you have been feeling that you have not communicated to your partner that you've not talked about that have not been resolved. So you kind of have to uncover these things because, like, yes, maybe some people can take the cork out, like, and truly forgive and be like, I don't need to reflect on the things that I've been bottling up. But I think some people, and maybe most people need to look at all the things that they've actually that are in the bottle.

John [00:14:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:43]: You know what I mean? Like, you can look in the bottle. It's your bottle. Like, you know what's in there.

John [00:14:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:47]: You know that like, when your husband, like, forgot your birthday, that. That hurt you, but you tried to play it off like it didn't matter. That's in your bottle.

John [00:14:57]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:14:58]: Like, you know that when your wife, you know, yelled at you and called you a name that she knows that you definitely don't want to be called, hurt you, but you just ignored it because you didn't want to start a fight.

John [00:15:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:11]: Is in your bottle. Like, you know what's in your bottle. And I think it's very important to start if you haven't or practice facing these things about yourself.

John [00:15:24]: And let me add this, because I think this is super important. It doesn't mean that they have to be sorry. It doesn't mean you even have to bring it up with them. It can be helpful to bring it up with them, but forgiveness is on you. Meaning that because you might not be able to resolve all of these things, but you're the one who's holding on to the thing. So the letting go, like you said. So if you have all this stuff in the bottle and you're like, okay, well, now I have to address all this stuff with my partner so I can finally forgive them. Wrong. You should still address all the things with your partner that you need to address.

Nicole [00:16:01]: Yeah.

John [00:16:01]: But forgiving them is something that you choose to do by letting go of these things and saying, I'm not going to hold this against them.

Nicole [00:16:08]: Yeah. And that has to be based on your actions, not theirs.

John [00:16:11]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:16:11]: I mean, like you said, like, if you look in your bottle and you're like, let's go back to the guy with the wife calling him a name.

John [00:16:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:18]: And you're like, I don't want her to do that again.

John [00:16:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:21]: That really Hurt me.

John [00:16:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:23]: Then you do need to have a conversation. Sure. If it's something that hurt you, but you feel like it wasn't malicious or it's not a pattern or whatever, or you're able to just forgive it, that's fine. But if there are things in your bottle that still bother you and are more of, like a. A principle or like a standard, how you want to live and have your marriage, you do have to address that. That is part of the uncorking, you know, like, you do have to go about that. But, yeah, like, forgiveness. People think that, like, people have to repent or, like, well, when I can tell that they feel sorry, right. Then I'll forgive them. If, you know, when they seem like they won't do this again, then I'll forgive them. Or when I feel like they won't do this again, I'll forgive them. Like, we put so many, like, expectations onto how or when we're going to forgive people. When, like you said, it's a choice. Like, again, I think you do have to evaluate all the things that you've bottled up in order to get to a place where you really can be like, okay, I'm letting these things go. I'm forgiving this person. And the slate is gonna. The bottle is gonna be empty now. I'm dumping it all out. I'm not holding on to these things anymore. That is when you can truly, like, forgive the person and clear everything out, but only you can do it. Like you said, it's a choice that

John [00:17:45]: you make, and forgiveness is for you, not for them.

Nicole [00:17:48]: Right. That's why it's your choice to make, not anything to do with them.

John [00:17:52]: Yeah. And if you can't figure this out, we did the whole episode on forgiveness. Definitely watch it. But you're gonna definitely have problems with your parents. Cause they're gonna die someday, and they're probably not going to apologize for all the things. And so you're probably never going to forgive them. And you're probably going to deal with that for the rest of your life unless you realize that forgiveness is on your own. Right. You know, I'm saying, because you're not going to have your parents suddenly apologize for all the things they did in your childhood or all the things that you're like. If you're holding on to those things, you have to realize you have to let go of those things. Not when they finally realize, when they finally talk to you. Because you don't know what's going to happen. You know, like, you're in Anyone in your life, you're gonna lose them. You could lose them at any point. And if you have unforgiveness because you feel like they have to do something in order for you to forgive them, then it's never gonna get resolved. And that's not a good way to live. And so you've got to do it for yourself.

Nicole [00:18:45]: Otherwise you're a prisoner in your own life.

John [00:18:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:18:47]: Okay. Because I'm glad you brought up the parents thing, because that's actually a good thing. Do you know what a lot of people say? Typically when they forgive their parents for their childhood?

John [00:18:59]: They were doing the best that they could.

Nicole [00:19:01]: Yeah. That they did the best that they could with the knowledge that they had.

John [00:19:05]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:06]: Why don't we say that about our partners?

John [00:19:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:09]: Why don't we say that about our partners?

John [00:19:11]: And ourselves.

Nicole [00:19:12]: Yeah, and ourselves. When we are able to give our parents that, which I think that the parents. Parents do deserve that, for sure. Like, we're all doing life. This life for the first time.

John [00:19:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:23]: Like, granted, yes, if you're being, like, abused or things like that, that is different. That involves intervention in a different way. But what I'm saying is that most of the time, you hear people who forgive their parents for whatever happened in their childhood, they say they did the best they could with what they knew. Right. Then. Or whatever.

John [00:19:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:43]: And so if we can do that for our parents, why do we not give our partner the same grace? Is it because they're the same age as us? Is it because they're. We just, like, expect our partners to know better.

John [00:19:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:59]: When we're all growing and going through life.

John [00:20:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:02]: Together.

John [00:20:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:04]: And so there are, I feel like, also other things that are involved when you're holding resentment and you bottle things up. Like, I do feel like avoidant people bottle things up more because anxious people feel a little bit more open to just say it whenever it happens. That's also why they come across anxious, you know, is because they're constantly like, this hurt me. This hurt me. This hurt me.

John [00:20:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:28]: And avoidant people are more like, oh, this hurt me. But I'll. I'll just, you know, put that over there and deal with that later. Or, like, it's not a big deal. But it is a big deal because they're not in touch with their emotions in the right way to, like, acknowledge it or talk about it with their partner. So I do think those things are incorporated in this problem as well, too. It's. I'm not saying it's an excuse, but I'm saying that again, when you have that bottle with the cork in it.

John [00:20:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:59]: You have to really look at yourself. You have to really look at what's in that bottle. You have to really look at, well, how did my bottle get this full anyway? Yeah, it's because I don't feel comfortable talking to my partner. Well, why? Like, don't blame it on them. Why do I not feel comfortable talking to my partner? Because I'm just used to handling emotions on my own or whatever the example is. Okay. Like, you have to get to the core of what you have done.

John [00:21:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:29]: It's your responsibility. These things in your bottle are your responsibility. Even though you've been hurt by someone else.

John [00:21:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:39]: Like it's not to invalidate it, but it's also your choice to be hurt by these things.

John [00:21:44]: Yeah. Well, yeah. Because you can only hurt yourself. Like we've talked Right. Before.

Nicole [00:21:48]: But that doesn't mean that you can't have the conversations like we talked about if your wife or your husband's calling you names.

John [00:21:53]: Sure.

Nicole [00:21:53]: You have a conversation about that. Yeah. You have boundaries, you have a conversation, but you have to get really real with yourself. And I feel like a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people are quick to be like, well, they said this and they said that. And yes, you can't control what your wife or your husband is going to say to you.

John [00:22:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:11]: You can't. No matter how much you want to, you can't.

John [00:22:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:14]: You can have the boundary, you can have the conversation.

John [00:22:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:17]: But you can't control the outcome. So the best thing to do is that you have to take your bottle, you have to look at all those things. You have to forgive. You have to have conversations if you need to. You have to forgive your partner.

John [00:22:30]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:31]: And you have to let it go. Not non quoted.

John [00:22:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:35]: Like truly let it go.

John [00:22:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:37]: And then move forward. And also I would say, I would add in that you need to reflect while you're doing all this unbottling on how to not let your bottle get so full again.

John [00:22:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:51]: Like it might still. And that doesn't mean you're wrong or you're bad. You're not going to be perfect, but you should be like, I don't ever want to get to this place where I resent my partner so much that I don't like them any. Like you said, I married this person at one point. I knowingly was making a commitment for the rest of my life to be with this person, to have children, to grow old Together.

John [00:23:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:15]: Where did that go?

John [00:23:16]: Yeah. You weren't crazy at that point. And it was. And it's like you don't even need to fill the bottle at all. Right. Because that's where it's like brushing your teeth or flossing every night.

Nicole [00:23:28]: True.

John [00:23:28]: You could go a week without doing that. Sure. And you can have the dentist scrape the tart off your teeth. Sure. If you want to do it that way. But that's a much more painful way to do it. It's not the good plan. The good plan is like, let me brush my teeth once a day or twice a day. Floss. Right. Do that. And so you have to do that. Otherwise, if that builds up, it's harder to remove. It's harder to get rid of. Because when you have the resentment, also, your heart is not in the place where you want to repair with your partner. Your heart is in the place where you're like, I can't believe that I'm with this person. They piss me off. They're so disgusting. They're. Whatever it is, you lose attraction. You don't have the motivation. It's hard to get yourself out of that state when you're. When you're in that state. And also the thing about it is they call it a root of bitterness. Right. Why do they call it a root of bitterness? Because it roots inside you. You know, you start off with some resentment, but that resentment, it creates a root implanted.

Nicole [00:24:23]: Implanted.

John [00:24:24]: And it gets roots, and it's hard to displace that. Pretty soon, that plus plant is growing. That weed of bitterness is growing out of your mouth, and it's rooted in your stomach, and it's not going to come out easy. So you don't want it to get root because once it gets roots, it's going to be hard to remove. And so I think that's the key. And you also don't have to have your partner be receptive in order for you to process these things. Right. So you can be vulnerable even if they're not going to respond in the right way. I think that's the thing that people say, oh, well, I'm not going to tell them because they're not going to respond in the right way. No, no. It's your responsibility to be vulnerable and to share the thing. And whether they respond correctly or not, it doesn't matter because you have prevented yourself from being presented. Exactly. Because you did what you were supposed to do. If they respond in a negative way, you're like, okay, well, I got it off. My chest. I said what I needed to say. I did the thing. Also, I think what's helpful too is in that book we're reading, the Emotional Agility book, there's a lot of studies of people that write down journal what they're feeling, their emotions. Why does that work? Because it's processing. Because even if you're not able to totally resolve something, which some things, again, someone did something to you and they passed away or they're not in your life anymore, you write it down, write how you felt about that. You're processing the emotion instead of denying the emotion. Right? Because a lot of people will try to suppress. They're like, oh, I have to be. I can't get upset. I can't get angry. And that's not correct. As you develop in higher levels of consciousness, less things will make you angry, less things will bring you into negative states of emotion. But you're still going to have those, especially as you're growing. And you don't want to deny them and suppress them. Instead, you want to actually process them and realize that you're having that experience. Doesn't mean you have to hold on to it. But I think that's key. Otherwise, if you're not practicing that hygiene, that emotional hygiene, then you're going to get that emotional tartar and it's going to result in decay and rot. And that's how the relationship, it rots from the inside, just like even a tooth. Right. The other thing about that, I think is a good analogy is that when a dentist looks at a cavity, what ends up happening? I don't know if you know, but you don't see the cavity necessarily at the surface level. What they see is they'll look at the enamel, they'll use that little thing. And when they check your teeth to see if it's hard, if it's soft, they'll dig a little in there. And underneath what looks like a normal tooth is all the rot it's underneath. And so that's what happens is that the relationship, the tooth is rotting from the inside. The relationship is rotting from the inside out. You don't even see it at the surface level. That's why you see people that they seem like such a great couple and they pretend on Facebook or Instagram that everything is great, but underneath it's rotting from the inside, from the resentment.

Nicole [00:27:26]: That's true. I want to go back to what you said about the Emotional Agility Book. I think that is a good book for people to read. This is a side note. Doesn't really go with relationships. But besides journaling, which is good, it has been proven that that does help you process your emotions. Even just being honest with your emotions in your own head.

John [00:27:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:27:48]: Will help you, like, in the moment. Let's say you say something to me, right? That's rude. And I'm like, I'm angry.

John [00:27:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:57]: That was hurtful. And it is making me angry. Like, deep down I'm hurt, which is the true.

John [00:28:03]: True.

Nicole [00:28:03]: But, like, what's coming, how it's being expressed is anger. Right. Like, and I don't have to say that to you and I don't have to act angry towards you.

John [00:28:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:11]: But if I acknowledge it, that will help you more than you think. And here's my example. That doesn't have to go with relationships. I went to a yoga class. I told you this. I went to a yoga class, but after reading the emotional agility book, I had this really cute tank top on that I asked John earlier that morning, hey, can you help me clip this? And he didn't really know how to do it, so I thought it was clipped. And I go to do this, like, downward dog, and the clip comes off. Like, luckily, like, my whole top didn't come off. But it was. It was embarrassing. And so in my head, I'm like, that was really embarrassing. I didn't beat myself up, but I was like, that was embarrassing.

John [00:28:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:52]: And normally I would never, like, even in my own head be like, that was embarrassing. I would just be like, oh, my God, did people see? Like, I would just ruminate on it for the entire rest of the class and let it throw off my yoga practice. Right. And maybe even my whole day. Because I'm, like, still embarrassed even though I never admitted it.

John [00:29:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:13]: About this thing. I'm just, like, panicking about all the other things, which the underlying thing is embarrassment. Right. But since I would never get to the part where I'm like, I'm embarrassed, or like, that was embarrassing.

John [00:29:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:28]: I would. I would let it go on for so much longer than it really needed to. But instead, since I was in that class and I was like, oh, that was embarrassing.

John [00:29:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:38]: I was able to, like, move on.

John [00:29:39]: Yeah, you can. Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:40]: And enjoy the rest of the class.

John [00:29:41]: Right. Because you called it what it was.

Nicole [00:29:43]: Right.

John [00:29:43]: Instead of denying it.

Nicole [00:29:44]: And I was also like, well, who hasn't had. In my head, I'm like, who hasn't had something embarrassing happen?

John [00:29:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:50]: And, like, would I point that out to no. No one. Like, even if someone's like, hey, I saw your Top come off, I'd be like, well, I already knew it was embarrassing.

John [00:29:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:57]: So what more can they say to me? You know what I mean? So. Because I accepted that and I went straight to that vulnerable part. Right, right. Where even sometimes we don't even want to tell ourselves the vulnerable thing. We don't even in our head want to say the vulnerable thing we're feeling.

John [00:30:13]: For sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:14]: But when you do.

John [00:30:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:16]: You fully process it.

John [00:30:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:19]: Even just saying it.

John [00:30:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:20]: And then you're able to actually let it go.

John [00:30:23]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:24]: You know what I mean? And so I get that that's not a relationship. No, but it's example here. But even if you don't have a journal nearby, the second if you're in a conversation, you can take a moment internally and be like, wow, that really hurt me.

John [00:30:38]: Well, it also creates space separation. The idea is like creating separation between the. The thing and yourself. It's not you. You can observe it. You can be.

Nicole [00:30:48]: Right.

John [00:30:48]: That's the called mindfulness is to say, okay, I'm. I'm feeling angry right now. I'm. It's not that I am angry.

Nicole [00:30:56]: Right, right.

John [00:30:57]: It's like I. Okay. The avatar of John is experiencing anger. Right. Or even in the book she says to name yourself in a third person, which helps because you need to disconnect from that being you. And this is the absolute reality versus this is an experience that you're having. And it's the same thing again. You can apply this to relationship and to your partner in the sense that whatever you're feeling right now, it's not the objective reality. Your partner doesn't hate you. They're not trying to hurt you. They're not trying. They're not trying to do things in order to. To annoy you or whatever it is. Like those are experiences that you're having.

Nicole [00:31:39]: Feelings are not facts.

John [00:31:40]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:31:41]: People forget that.

John [00:31:42]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:31:43]: Like they feel like facts to us.

John [00:31:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:45]: But people really need to realize that feelings are not facts.

John [00:31:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:49]: Feelings are helpful tools.

John [00:31:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:52]: But they're not facts.

John [00:31:53]: Exactly. Yeah. There's the whole. I think it's in 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. He uses a different example, but he calls it a paradigm shift. Stephen Covey. And he talks about this idea that you've. Like, he tells the story of this guy that was on this bus, right. And he's taking the bus home from work or whatever. And there's this father that has like a 4 or 5 year old kid and the kid is just screaming and yelling and acting up on the bus. And he's getting annoyed sitting there listening to this kid. They're like, why doesn't this father do something about this kid? Like, why is he not parenting this kid? He's just letting this kid just annoy everyone on the bus, right? And finally he says something to the father, and he's like, are you going to do something about your kid? Just. He's kind of annoying everyone else on the bus. And the father looks at him and he says, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, sorry, I just. His mom just died in the hospital. We're coming home. I should really, like, make him listen and not let him do that, right? And so it's like. It's a paradigm shit. But it's a complete different. That guy's feelings about the situation completely changed. He now feels embarrassed and he's like, oh, I'm so sorry. I can't believe that you just went through that. I'm sorry I said anything. So the facts didn't change the feelings, did you know what I'm saying? So you think that your feelings are your facts, that they're the same, but then you find out more information, and now you're feeling something different in the exact same situation. So what happened? Did the kids start behaving differently? No, what happened was that the information was there. So the facts are not the feelings. It's a good example of that. And so whatever we're thinking at the time, even especially with it applies to resentment. Because you're like, oh, my partner's so annoying. They do this. I don't like that. I don't think I'm even attracted to them anymore. Maybe I wasn't. Maybe I never liked them or whatever it was. No, no, no. That's just because this resentment that you have is changing the way that you feel. But that's not the facts. That's not. The situation was different before, and it will be different again when you get rid of the resentment. Because a lot of people also kill a perfectly good relationship because they build up enough resentment in their bottle, and then they're like, okay, let me just throw the whole thing away. And in reality, it's like any relationship you get into, if you're not dealing with the emotions that you're going through and the hurt and the conflict and resolving them, you're going to fill up that bottle, too. And so you're going to have to keep on going through life filling up bottles, going away the bottles, and you're just going to have a closet full of all these bottles. And that's what they call. That's what they call baggage.

Nicole [00:34:40]: Yeah. You know, and no person to be with, honestly, because you'll throw them away the second that your bottle's full.

John [00:34:46]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So you have to resolve it. And like I said, the biggest piece to it is getting that cork out, which is the. The forgiveness you have to forgive and the true forgiveness. You know, every time I do a talk on this subject, I would have everyone raise their hands. I'd say, okay, if you've been there for me doing this talk where if you have unforgiveness, if you haven't forgiven someone for something, raise your hand. And everyone raised their hand. I'm like, why are you raising your hand? Why are you holding on to something that's only going to hurt you and doesn't help you in any way? Because not forgiving someone doesn't. You're carrying that load every day. You're the one who has to feel that pain, who feels that resentment. Why not let it go? But you have to identify what is that hurt and what does that hurt doing for you in order to let go of it. Because we hold onto the thing because it's doing something for us. We believe it's doing something for us. It's not really doing something for us, but we have to identify that. And then when we can identify that and say, oh, yeah, I'm not forgiving because this hurt that I experience, it's making me feel like I'm justified. It's making me feel like I'm. Now, it'll protect. It won't happen again if I remember this hurt.

Nicole [00:36:02]: Right, right.

John [00:36:03]: That's a big one that people do. But whatever it is, those are all faults. It's not true. The holding onto the hurt does not help you. You carry it every day like a burden, and it hurts you every day. You know, it's like. It's like having a thorn in your foot and you're like, oh, I can't remove the thorn. Well, why? Because then I'll. I'll forget that. Not to step in thorn bushes. Well, how about you remove the thorn

Nicole [00:36:24]: you still remember from the pain you felt the first time?

John [00:36:27]: Exactly. Exactly.

Nicole [00:36:28]: You don't have to keep carrying the pain and keep experiencing. Experiencing it over and over again.

John [00:36:34]: But if you never get rid of that, if you never let go of the hurt, you're going to think, because a lot of people, they'll say, I forgive you, but they don't really forgive because they're still holding onto the hurt. And so if any point you can reference back and say you did this to me, that means you didn't forgive. Because at any point, if you still have an emotional charge, like you can say you did this to me in a non emotional way and not have an emotional charge behind it. Because it's just facts, right? Like just recounting the facts like you're discussing something. But if there's an emotional charge behind something that someone did to you, it's not forgiven.

Nicole [00:37:07]: That's true.

John [00:37:08]: Otherwise, because that means you're still holding onto the hurt. You don't get to hold on to the hurt anymore. You have to trade it and give it away completely and act like they never did it in the first place. And if, if you can't do that, it's not true forgiveness. And if you can't do that, then you're going to have that bottle of resentment that's going to. Because you won't be able to empty it out.

Nicole [00:37:26]: No, you're right. So what is a good way to actually go about doing this? Maybe an example, because I know we talked a lot about looking at the bottle and what to do, but I think we should go over, you know, someone that has a lot of resentment, how do they go about fixing the things with their partner? Yeah, like I know that we talked about what they can do with their own bottle, but then is there things. Do you think the connection to their partner will come back when they do the things that they need to do on their own or do you think they need to also do things with their partner?

John [00:38:04]: I think, I think they need to do the work on their own, primarily. Right. So. Well, I think the other thing about this, I think that that's tied to it is that when you're resenting your partner, you're actually actively hurting them. Like you're actually actively doing harm to them. Because holding resentment against someone is actually harming them because it's affecting the way that you're interacting with them. You're also being unfair in the sense that you've got something that you're counting against them that they don't even know, perhaps. You know what I'm saying? And that's not fair. Right. So. So it's causing harm. Harm. It's almost deceptive in a way. Right. It's not really telling the truth. So I think though that if you're able to forgive and you're able to work through the things that like again, a true forgiveness is to say that I'm not holding this against you anymore. Then your charged feelings about the situation dissipate, like that bottle. Now all those resentments can come out. Now, it doesn't mean that there's not things that have to be corrected in the relationship, like the reasons why those hurts piled up in the first place. But your feelings about it should be different at that point. Right? Because just like. Again, here's a perfect example is just like I said with the bus example, right? At that point, when that guy. I mean, it's kind of a quick process of forgiveness, right? Because that guy was mad at the other guy on the bus for not controlling his kid. As soon as he figured out that his wife had died and that child's mother had died, he instantly forgave the guy for not controlling his kid. Like, he didn't have to go through this conscious process, but that's what happened. And then all his feelings about it, the resentment, because he was building resentment while he was sitting there on that bus listening to that kid before he said anything. Right. All that resentment disappeared instantly. And then he was able to have a different type of relationship with the man on the bus and the child. Right. No longer irritated, no longer annoyed, no longer, you know, so. So I think that's. That's. That's true.

Nicole [00:40:13]: Well, so it sounds like to me that resentment is the stories that we tell each other ourselves. Like, resentment is all your hurts that you piled up, that is that you're using to make a story about your partner so that you view them that way. Yeah, yeah, that's what it sounds like to me. And you can rewrite the story, Right. But you do have to forgive them.

John [00:40:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:38]: You do have to empty out your jar.

John [00:40:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:43]: But you can do that same thing with, like, the parent thing. When someone goes, I forgive my parents. They were doing the best they can with the knowledge that they had. That's them letting it all go. That's the story. They're. They're changing the story. Because the story before was like, how can my parents do this? How could they treat me this way? How could they, like, neglect me or whatever the story is?

John [00:41:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:07]: They held onto that story until they changed it. And they actually looked through the lens of, you know, what? My parents. Parents did this stuff. So this is all that they knew, and they were trying to do the best that they could do.

John [00:41:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:24]: And I understand that now.

John [00:41:25]: Exactly. And you can look at it. It's just like, okay, this is a human being who made a mistake, and they're either aware of the mistake they made or they're not aware of it. But if they're aware of it, then great, they've made mistakes just like I've made mistakes and will continue to make mistakes. You should forgive them. If they're not aware of it, then you should still forgive them. Because there's plenty of mistakes you're making that you're not aware of yet. You know what I'm saying? It's not so. I think if you look at everything through that lens, then you're recreating a story that makes more sense, is that we're all just humans. We're doing the best that we can. We all are. Now, is it good enough? Sometimes? No. Could we try harder? Sometimes? Yes. But the fact that we're not trying as hard as we can is also a mistake we're making. You know what I'm saying? Because we haven't developed a level of awareness and consciousness to understand that at this point. Right. So some people think they're trying the best that they can, but it's not the best they can. That's fine. But they have an error in their thinking about that, which is also a mistake, which is something that comes from not having that experience and knowledge. Like you can't know things until you experience them, until you go through those things. And we all have to sort of work our way through lives. And so if someone does something to you and they're sorry for it, great. If they're not sorry for it yet, then you could be sorry for them because they haven't figured the thing out yet. But either way, like, it's the same experience that you're doing yourself as well. Right. Because you're also making mistakes and conscious of some of them, unconscious of some of those mistakes.

Nicole [00:43:03]: Holding resentment is a mistake.

John [00:43:05]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:43:06]: Holding things in instead of talking about them is a mistake. Holding things in instead of processing them is a mistake. Like, people who hold on to hurt and have resentment think that they're protecting themselves. They think that they're holding on to it for a reason. And most of the time I do feel like it is to protect themselves, for sure.

John [00:43:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:23]: From this hurt again, or worse hurt or whatever it is. But you have to realize that. That you're also making a mistake by doing that.

John [00:43:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:32]: So you can't hold yourself on this, like, high standard.

John [00:43:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:37]: When your mistake just looks slightly different than theirs.

John [00:43:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:41]: I mean, and again, like abuse and things like that, that's different. Yeah, But.

John [00:43:46]: But you still forgive in that case, you don't necessarily have to be with someone who's Abusive. But even if you're holding on to the abuse with Unforgiven, you're like, I could never forgive that person. They did such a horrible thing to me.

Nicole [00:43:57]: Right.

John [00:43:58]: No, it doesn't. That it's just harming you. It doesn't hurt them that you're not forgiving them. It only hurts you. Every day of you holding onto that pain and that hurt. And you're never going to move on until you let go of it. And you have to let go of it by forgiving them. It's not about them, it's about you.

Nicole [00:44:14]: Yeah.

John [00:44:14]: You know what I'm saying? If you make it about them, you're missing the point.

Nicole [00:44:18]: Or maybe even forgiving yourself for holding on to that.

John [00:44:21]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the other part is forgiving yourself.

Nicole [00:44:24]: Same thing. I think forgiving yourself has to come first, personally. I think that that's why when you look at your bottle and you get real about everything that's in your bottle.

John [00:44:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:33]: And you figure out why these things hurt you or what the deep, underlying vulnerable feeling is or emotion is, you have to forgive yourself. Because a lot of the things that trigger or hurt us don't even come from what actually was, like, happening. Sometimes it does.

John [00:44:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:54]: Sometimes it comes from something that has nothing to do with that person and came from all the way back here.

John [00:44:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:59]: That you held on to or ways that you feel about yourself that someone said or did something that. That you made hurt you.

John [00:45:12]: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:13]: And so, yeah, you have to forgive yourself. And I think, honestly, if you can't forgive yourself, kind of like, if you can't love yourself, you can't love someone else. If you can't forgive yourself, you can't forgive other people. Like, if you can't forgive yourself for all the mistakes and bad things you've done in your life, which we've all done. If you can't forgive yourself, if you can't look at that and be like, they were the version of me was doing the best that they could with the knowledge that they had.

John [00:45:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:41]: If you can't do that, you can't forgive people. And that is a reason why people can't forgive people. It's not because they're like, they don't know how or like they're not really trying as hard as they can. I think it's because they don't even know how to forgive themselves.

John [00:45:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:59]: And they are holding their own mistakes against themselves.

John [00:46:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:06]: So harshly that, like, they have all those in a different bottle.

John [00:46:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:10]: And then now they're filling up another bottle.

John [00:46:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:13]: With someone else.

John [00:46:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:46:14]: And they're like, I can't even look at my own bottle. You think I'm going to like, know how to deal with this bottle?

John [00:46:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:19]: Like you have to forgive yourself.

John [00:46:21]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:46:22]: For all the mistakes. Because then that will also help you look at your partner and any other human being as what they are, which is a human being which makes mistakes. And look, again, I'm just coming from my perspective as an avoidant person, I do think that you can't face your own mistakes.

John [00:46:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:41]: And try to hold yourself to this like high level of perfection.

John [00:46:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:45]: That then you expect from other people and then when they don't do it, you end up resenting them when it's like you didn't even do it yourself.

John [00:46:54]: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's like just, just as you're saying about the, the love. Right. Like, and you've heard me say it before, sometimes people don't like when I say it. But you can't love someone else if you don't love yourself because you can't give what you don't have.

Nicole [00:47:08]: Right.

John [00:47:08]: The love that you have has to overflow from you. Like, if you need love, if you're not, if you don't have it, then you're going to be taking it. But if you have it, then it overflows out from you. And the best indicator to tell how a person will treat another person is how they talk to themselves. And a person who talks to themselves harshly, they might pretend to be kind to people, but in reality they're jealous, resentment, envious of other people. They might say the nice words, but in reality, if they get upset or they're under stress, they're going to snap. They're going to tell how they really feel. But a person who speaks nicely to themselves, who has a high esteem, is going to treat other people well. Because the reason why is really simple. It's that we are wired to survive. We are wired for self survival. Right. So we're always going to do things that are in our ultimately in our best interest. Right. And so however, if we're going to treat ourselves the best honestly, like, that's what we do because we make choices that are for we. No one would make choices that are against them. They make choices that are for them. Right. Or at least they think that they are. And so if you have a standard for yourself that's up here, Right. You're going to hold other people to a higher standard than that. You know what I'm saying? You give yourself a little. So if you think that you're a piece of shit, then you're going to think that everyone else is a piece of shit because they're not going to measure up to the like, you know what I'm saying? It's like if you don't love yourself, you're not going to love other people because you're going to be kindest to yourself. And if your kindness to yourself looks like horrible beating yourself up, then you're not going to be kind to other people. You're not going to love other people. And so that's the same thing with the forgiveness. If you can't forgive yourself, if you're like, well I don't deserve forgiveness, then you're going to be like, well, they don't deserve forgiveness. Right. Even though forgiveness is not something to be deserved, but you're going to have that same mental block.

Nicole [00:49:15]: Yeah. If you hold your own mistakes against you so harshly where you don't feel like you can forgive yourself.

John [00:49:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:20]: You'll never forgive anyone else because you'll feel like they definitely don't. You can't forgive them if you can't even forgive yourself.

John [00:49:28]: Yeah. Because ultimately we, we always think about ourselves that we're, we're the best. Right. Like, like whether we really like, not necessarily like we could have a negative self talk, but what I'm saying is that like we're, we're self preserving. We're going to try to make choices that are best for ourselves.

Nicole [00:49:43]: Right.

John [00:49:44]: Ultimately, I mean that you can't make sacrifices altruistically, you know, but, but in general we're going to make those choices. And so you have to start with forgiveness for yourself because if you're not going to extending that grace to yourself, you're not going to extend the grace to anyone else in any area of your life. So.

Nicole [00:50:00]: Yeah, well, so you guys heard it here that to get rid of resentment, it's all on you.

John [00:50:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:07]: You got to do the work. I mean, not to say that you don't have conversations with your partner about they can help things that hurt you and are having boundaries or things like that, or standards for your relationship or rules. If you haven't put in some of the rules that like we've talked about, you can do those things as well too if that's part of your resentment or things like that. But most of the stuff, I mean all of the stuff essentially is on you as a person to do.

John [00:50:36]: Yeah. And it's like I Think a good way to look at it is kind of from a stoic perspective, like, let's say, you know, because we tend to personify people, obviously, but we think that it's personal. But in reality, the better way to look at life is that everybody is a hot stove in the sense that if you touch a hot stove and you burn yourself, you don't get mad at the stove and be like, why did you do that, you stupid stove? Right. Like, I can't believe that. Right. You don't think that because it's an inanimate object, it's doing what it's supposed to do. It didn't burn you. You. It just did something and you touched the thing. Like, you caused the. The heart, the harm. Right. And so every single person in your life is like that. Right.

Nicole [00:51:25]: Like, person in your life is a stove.

John [00:51:26]: Is a hot stove. Yeah. Because. Because it's a better way to think about. Because if you think about it that way, as impersonal as the stove burning you, then you're going to have a lot less trouble in life. Because when someone hurts you, you won't say, how dare you do that. I can't believe you hurt me. Instead, you're like, ow. Okay, maybe I should not touch that stove anymore. Or maybe I should turn the heat down on that stove or whatever it is. Or maybe I should have a conversation about this with the stove. Yeah. But my point is that it's not personal. You're no longer trying to personify and make it that someone did something to you. You just experienced a thing. You experienced some pain. You kind of chose that path.

Nicole [00:52:14]: You chose that stove.

John [00:52:15]: Yeah. You chose to be in that interaction. You know what I'm saying? So it's just a result of. It's a way of just going through life thinking about things in the right way. That it's not that someone did something to you, it's something that just happened to you. Because everyone else is. They're running their own code. They're running their own scripts.

Nicole [00:52:36]: Right.

John [00:52:36]: They're not doing, like, the world doesn't revolve around you. They're not. Everyone is trying to, like, mess you up. Right.

Nicole [00:52:42]: They're not out to get you.

John [00:52:43]: They're trying to do their own things. And then it just so happened that you got hurt by one of them. Okay. That's not. You know, that's. Maybe they shouldn't be doing that thing, but it's not their fault. It's your fault that you got hurt by the thing.

Nicole [00:52:55]: So that's Like a whole nother level.

John [00:52:57]: Yeah. It's another. But.

Nicole [00:53:00]: But just remember, everyone's a stove. Hot stove.

John [00:53:03]: Yes.

Nicole [00:53:05]: And you picked the stove that you picked.

John [00:53:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:08]: And just because you're telling yourself a story, different story about your stove, doesn't mean that it's not the same stove.

John [00:53:15]: Exactly. That's right.

Nicole [00:53:17]: So again, it's on you. Forgive yourself for the mistakes you've made, process the deep emotions. And if you have a conversation with your partner.

John [00:53:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:28]: It needs to be actually vulnerable. Vulnerable does not mean I don't know if I want to be with you anymore or you annoy me or you, whatever. Like, those are not vulnerable feelings.

John [00:53:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:42]: Vulnerable feelings would be like, when you called me this name, I felt extremely hurt and afraid that you really believe this thing about me, that this is how you view me.

John [00:53:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:58]: That's vulnerable.

John [00:54:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:01]: Vulnerable is not attacking some other person.

John [00:54:03]: Yeah. Yeah. And it's not defending yourself.

Nicole [00:54:06]: Right. Well, and so. And it's. And it's your responsibility to learn how to communicate properly. Like, if you are spilling all of your emotions onto everyone else.

John [00:54:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:17]: In the conversations that you're having, that is a mistake on you.

John [00:54:21]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:23]: Like, I get that if you've never done this before, if you've never had to, like, control the way that you talk, it's going to be hard at first. But it's not impossible.

John [00:54:32]: Right?

Nicole [00:54:33]: It is nowhere near impossible.

John [00:54:35]: And how you talk starts with how you think.

Nicole [00:54:38]: Yeah.

John [00:54:38]: So if you haven't yourself. Right.

Nicole [00:54:41]: Translates to how you think about other people. Like you said, translates to how you talk to people.

John [00:54:45]: Yeah. So sometimes you just have to reframe the situation in your mind.

Nicole [00:54:48]: Yeah.

John [00:54:48]: Because it's one thing to watch your words. Okay. But it's better if you can watch your thoughts and captivate your own thoughts. You get to choose what you think about. Some things pop in your head, but you get to choose to dwell on them, to dispel them and say, that's not true. You get to make those choices. And yeah. If you choose to make people the enemy. But that's why if you choose to be like just a hot stove that got burned on, then your response is going to be a lot different than, this person tried to get me. That stove is out to get me. I can't believe it burned me.

Nicole [00:55:18]: That's where the resentment comes from. The exact story that you just said, if you portray your partner as a villain, you will eventually see them as a villain.

John [00:55:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:26]: And when you really step away from it and view what's actually Been going on. A lot of times you'll realize you're the villain, right?

John [00:55:36]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:55:37]: Honestly, like, even though who's different? Oh, it's you take yourself to jail. But no, honestly, like, a lot of people who protect themselves by holding on to hurt.

John [00:55:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:50]: Don't think that they could possibly be the villain because they're just protecting themselves. They've been hurt. Look at this. That's why they hold on to it. They're like, look at this. No, I've been hurt. I'm the victim. Or exactly as they're being the villain.

John [00:56:02]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:03]: Which I'm not saying this to have to add to your shame collection that you have over here to your shame jar. That's not what I'm doing. But the thing is, realize that sometimes you do things that are not good and that harm the relationship.

John [00:56:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:18]: And a lot of times it's holding resentment towards your partner is harming the relationship more than the things that they have done to you.

John [00:56:27]: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:56:29]: So you just have to get real again. Like, whatever you need to do, view it as like third person. View it as someone else's jar. Like, pretend you're talking to your friend and they've been through this kind of stuff and like, help them through it. Not help, not be like, oh, yeah, f that person or whatever. Like, that's not actually helping people. Like, whatever you need to do to really get real about what you've done here, what you got in your jar.

John [00:56:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:55]: What you need to forgive, how you need to show up based on all these things will help you and you won't have to fill up your jar anymore. Like you said, you won't even eat the jar. You could throw out the jar.

John [00:57:09]: Yeah. And I think if you are at the point of having the resentment, it's not even a. I mean, you have to deal with this and not think that, like you said, that your partner has to deal with it. It doesn't even really serve a purpose to say, hey, I'm resenting you.

Nicole [00:57:30]: Right.

John [00:57:31]: It serves a purpose to deal with this and say, I'm sorry because I've been holding resentment and I didn't deal with it, but I'm dealing with it now at that point, then having the discussion. But it doesn't have any purpose to say, I'm resenting you. Help me deal with this.

Nicole [00:57:51]: That's not it.

John [00:57:51]: Because it's on you. Because you're the one who's chosen that path.

Nicole [00:57:54]: Yeah. That's putting the responsibility onto someone else when it's Your responsibility.

John [00:57:58]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:57:59]: Yeah, that's true.

John [00:58:01]: All right, well, I think that's it for. Do we. Do we have. Do we have anything for this? I don't think we have anything for this week, do we?

Nicole [00:58:08]: I don't think so.

John [00:58:10]: Yeah, things have been pretty.

Nicole [00:58:11]: I just let it go. I let the tea bag sink to the bottom if it does. No, no. I figured you would bring it up if there was something that I forgot.

John [00:58:20]: I don't think so. Things have been smooth. Even. Even, you know, even child life has been smooth. It's been really.

Nicole [00:58:27]: Do not jinx us. Do not jinx us, John.

John [00:58:32]: No, I think. I feel like it's been really overall all around, and we've even been under pretty stressful situations with people working on our house all the time and all the stuff, so.

Nicole [00:58:43]: Yeah.

John [00:58:43]: Yeah. Maybe we learned something. I don't know.

Nicole [00:58:46]: We've learned a lot of something.

John [00:58:50]: Well, all right. Well, if you have a question for us, you can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com or visit the website betterthanperfectpod.com and, like, subscribe. Yeah. Do all the things.

Nicole [00:59:03]: Share with your friends, family.

John [00:59:05]: Yeah. For somebody who makes this episode, which is everyone.

Nicole [00:59:11]: Yeah. We're not just trying to, like, get popular. Like, we want to help people.

John [00:59:15]: Yeah. So someone needs this. Yeah. Yeah. Or go through. You could definitely watch the episode Unforgiveness for sure. That's a huge one. If you're struggling with. With forgiveness. Because most people are struggling with forgiveness if they're being honest. So. Yeah. All right, we'll see you next week.

Nicole [00:00:00]: I'm glad that the generation now is shying away from dating app. Now they're shifting to wanting to meet their partner in person. On Instagram, like anyone could DM them and like have a conversation. And on dating apps that they can just swipe on whoever and go on as however many dates as they want, they're over that because they know what that produces. We met on a dating app. So I'm not saying that dating apps are bad, but they are at this point harder to navigate because there is a lot of catfishing people on there scams. There's, there's people cheating on people.

John [00:00:37]: Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the better than Perfect podcast where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:02]: That's right.

John [00:01:03]: And today we're going to be talking about situationships.

Nicole [00:01:06]: Yes.

John [00:01:07]: That they're, they're dying. There's going to be a funeral for situationships.

Nicole [00:01:11]: I heard they're a thing of the past, which I think is a good thing. Yeah, I guess the younger generation is over the, what would you call it, like the wishy washy ambiguity. Yeah, they're like trying to get straight to the point, which like we've done some episodes on like dating and you know, being mysterious and things like that. And I, I'm not saying that those things don't still apply.

John [00:01:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:39]: But I think that the end of the situationship is a good thing because I feel like it gives people an excuse to be, to not put all their eggs in one basket or like normalize that sort of thing. And I think that when they define like a situationship, I would say it's like being confused and not knowing what you are like, well into like dating the person. Not like three dates in, that's not a situationship, but like a few months in and you're, you don't know where you guys stand.

John [00:02:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:18]: And you've like made strives towards being in a relationship, but you haven't defined it and you haven't asked questions. That's what I would call a situationship. And so I still think in the beginning, first few dates, you don't want to be like, I'm looking for a relationship and my, my next husband or. Yeah, you know, you don't want to go out the gate with that. But I kind of like the, that the situationships are coming to an end because I feel like, the situationship itself in general has kind of degraded committed relationships and potentially even marriage, because it's normalized. This sort of, like, let's just both be free for, like, a long time. And it's confusing. And, like, if you really like somebody who doesn't want to commit, you want to still keep them around. So you're maybe like, hanging on when they're not giving you what you want. And then the other person, you know, might be afraid to commit, like, wants to, but isn't doing it, or they don't plan to, but they're not telling you. So it's just completely confusing and doesn't really help anyone, obviously. It just wastes a lot of time. So I kind of like that the younger generations are like, no, I'd rather either be single or, like, we're gonna date sort of thing, because I think that that's essentially how it should be. Like, you either like, this person enough where you're gonna commit and you're gonna try it out with a relationship, like, be official, or you're gonna be single and you're gonna move on to your next dating situation. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think it takes three months to figure out if you like somebody enough to exclusively date them.

John [00:04:10]: Yeah, yeah, I think. I think it's just in general. I mean, we talk about on the podcast about moving things along in the timeline quickly, and I think that's good to do. Even though some people would say, oh, that's not good. It is good because you need to figure out what are you doing. So you don't waste a lot of time, too, because what ends up happening is relationships that are like a couple years, few years old. That's where it's sort of this gray area. Like, you're comfortable with status quo, and you're not even in the best mindset at that stage in the relationship, usually, to decide if you want to commit, commit for marriage at that point, because it's better when it's actually more recent and you haven't fallen into a rut with a lot of people who fall into ruts, you know? But the same thing, even just with dating, is that if you're seeing someone, sort of seeing them for months at a time, then why would you commit? Like, why would you make it official? So. But then nothing advances, nothing happens past that, and then it causes all kinds of drama because then are you actually free? One person thinks that they're in a committed relationship, the other person doesn't. But no one said Anything either way.

Nicole [00:05:35]: Right, Right. Well. And I would blame women. And here's why.

John [00:05:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:41]: Because we, like, even though men are the keepers of their relationship, like you said, essentially if we give them a relationship without making them commit, they're not going to, they're going to keep you in this limbo when.

John [00:05:56]: Relationship. You mean sex? If you give them a sexual relationship

Nicole [00:05:59]: or even like, if you're available to like hang out or like they're getting basically like relationship

John [00:06:07]: benefits.

Nicole [00:06:08]: Yes, benefits.

John [00:06:09]: Sex.

Nicole [00:06:10]: Well, but not just that, because like

John [00:06:14]: on the man side, right, like, you know, normally we'd say a woman's getting relationship benefit, like the boyfriend benefits. But I mean, it is obviously it's more than that, but that is the thing that has the leverage that the woman is holding. Right?

Nicole [00:06:28]: Right. So, yeah, So I would say that it is women's fault that situationships even happened because back in the day too, like, women were more like persistent on being courted and like, did not give men really the time of day unless they were like, properly courted.

John [00:06:49]: Sure. Right.

Nicole [00:06:50]: And then we kind of got rid of that and like, men got kind of lazy. But it's not even their fault because if we're giving them everything, right. And they're, they're not having to court us, then they're gonna think it's okay. And so they're not going to commit because like you said, why should, why should they? And that's honestly what I feel like is also contributing to men not wanting to get married.

John [00:07:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:15]: Because if they have a wife, basically, wife benefits.

John [00:07:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:22]: Then there's why are they gonna do it? And if your relationship started out as a situationship where you gave him relationship benefits when you weren't in one, why is he gonna take an even bigger commitment when he was afraid of taking that commitment? You know what I mean? And so that's why I'm saying that I do think a lot of this is women's fault because. And I understand as a woman, like, and I have been in situationships before we got together in some sort of way, so I understand why it happens. I understand when you wanna be with somebody that like, you give them more than they really honestly should get in the timeline of the situation or like what you're getting back. But at the same time, like, you, like, we have to realize that we are kind of perpetuating the situationship as women by doing that. And so we think it's scary to like, have boundaries with men and be like, no, like, I want to go on a nice date or like, no, like, we're not going to do this until we're like official. Or like, you know, I'm like, I need to be in a relationship to do such and such. Like, that feels more scary to women. It feels like they're going to run the men off. And it might, honestly, because at this point, men have gotten again, lazy where they're like, oh, well, I can go find some other girl that's going to give me girlfriend benefits without having to make her my girlfriend.

John [00:08:50]: But. But then now, now girls saying no.

Nicole [00:08:55]: Right?

John [00:08:55]: So that's how it stops.

Nicole [00:08:57]: Right, exactly.

John [00:08:58]: Because then it's like you can't just run off somewhere else. But yeah, I think that is, I think that's true. Well, because also not to just pile on women, but I mean, most men are okay with a situationship. Most women are not so much. Right. So I mean, I was in a long, like a three year situationship and the way that it went on was I just didn't say anything. I just showed up at whatever city, just whatever. I disappeared. And then they came back and no questions about. There was no questions. No questions about my marital status. No questions about where I actually, like, was I seeing anyone else or anything like that. No questions like that.

Nicole [00:09:44]: Well, side note, if someone's meeting up with you, they shouldn't have to ask if you're married. They probably should ask if you're single seeing someone else. But they shouldn't have to ask if you're married because most people will assume if you're dating them, you shouldn't be married.

John [00:09:58]: I mean, in that situation, though, the, the context is that we're going to places, but never to the city I lived in, always to other places.

Nicole [00:10:10]: Yes, but you still.

John [00:10:12]: No, but yeah, I mean, yeah, obviously, like, that was not the. That was back in the days. And that was not the bad John days. Yeah, the bad. Yeah, that was. I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying that. Yeah. You know, like, in that case, I was, I was fine with it because I'm like, okay, well I can just go, come and go as I please and there's no requirements on my part of anything, you know, so why would I mess with the situation, Right? So that I'm being honest. Like, this is like, I appreciate it's like, so that. Because I could, you know, try to pretend like that's not the case. But that was the case. It was like. And most guys are probably gonna be like that. Like most guys that would be in a situation where they're they're able to have women, Right. If a guy is not able to get a woman or get a date or, you know, whatever, then obviously he has a different viewpoint on this. Like, he's going to definitely not like situationships because it might be happening on. On the other side where the woman is not committing. And he's like, what are we? Like, why does she keep on. You know that. What was that? Remember that? This song, the. What is it? The. We're like, what is it? When we're at. When We Were Young, the song that the band Offspring Self Esteem, remember?

Nicole [00:11:44]: Oh, yeah.

John [00:11:44]: Like that Self Esteem song. It's like the more you suffer, the more it shows you really care, right? Yeah. You know what I'm talking about that song, right? Where the girl is like, just going off and like, she just uses him whenever she wants to, but he just like hangs around. Like he's. That's the opposite side of a situationship. But for most of the time, a guy is fine with it because who cares? So that's why a woman. It does come down to a woman to put a stop to him. Be like, hey, look, what are we? Yeah, you know, I want to be a girlfriend, whatever. And then of course, at that point, the man should have the captain of the ship talk if he wants to actually get into a committed relationship, which will set the tone for the relationship where he is the one who is the authority in the relationship. And, you know, and he has that conversation. So that's all cleared up. So.

Nicole [00:12:37]: Yeah, well, I would hope too that. Cause I guess I would be a little concerned if a guy was trying to push a situationship. And then if I was like, so what are we? And then he's like, well, we can be together, but I'm the captain of the ship. I would be like, hold on. Like, I understand what you're saying, but you didn't even want to be the captain of the ship until now.

John [00:13:01]: Well, yeah, but he's like, look, like

Nicole [00:13:05]: the situationship we were in the dinghy and now you want to be the captain of the ship. Yeah, like, that I feel like would be hard to navigate in a way. Like, I'd be like, okay, but you went from not wanting to commit to now you want to take on full responsibility. Like, are you going to be able to do that?

John [00:13:25]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:26]: You know what I mean?

John [00:13:27]: I see that. But I mean, a guy should always be carrying himself in that capacity anyway, regardless of whatever situation he's in.

Nicole [00:13:36]: Yeah.

John [00:13:36]: Because that's how you should act as A man is that by de facto I'm going to be the man in the relationship. If you're not doing that, then, you know, obviously having an explicit conversation of the captain of the ship is important so that it's clear, but it should be just. It should be coming across in the way that you're coming across in the relationship anyway. So.

Nicole [00:14:00]: Yeah, like how you behave. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But I am glad that the younger generation is getting rid of this because honestly, it was like my generation, Millennials and Gen Z. Yeah. Maybe even Gen Z is kind of leaning more towards this, though. But like, we unfortunately kind of started this. I mean, I can't think of it earlier.

John [00:14:25]: No, it's. It. What happened. What started. It was a couple of things. It was dating apps first coming in.

Nicole [00:14:32]: That's true.

John [00:14:32]: And Instagram, which is basically a dating app, right? So. So that what happened was because you had all this options now, options and like. And it was fresh, right? I mean, when dating apps first came out, it wasn't like it is now or.

Nicole [00:14:49]: No, I remember.

John [00:14:50]: I remember Tinder for sure. It was just normal people on them, right. It wasn't like weirdos on them now, you know, like, now. Now it's. I'm not saying there's not any normal people on dating apps, but from the, the coaching clients that I. I talk to now, it's a. It's heavily skewed towards. Is this girl trying to sell her only fans on. On this dating app? Is this a bot? Is this a Nigerian phishing scam? Is this a really weird girl? That's like, why is she still on a dating app? And at this, you know, like, yes,

Nicole [00:15:22]: like, oh, no, not one of those.

John [00:15:24]: There's a lot, A lot of that. Whereas before it was just normal people, right? It's like. And also, even when you went to your Instagram and someone DM'd, you slid into your DMs. It wasn't an automated message that someone spent a thousand of them out, you know, so it was like. Yeah, so it was like the world was fresh and you could just like go from. From date to date and there's so many options to look at. But. But now it's kind of changed, right? And also what's happened too, is that even what's happened has changed now too, is OnlyFans one out of. What was the stat? I think it was.

Nicole [00:15:59]: I don't know.

John [00:16:00]: I forgot I looked it up before, but I'd seen the stat because we were going to talk about it, but it's something like. I thought it was like 30% of women under, like 30 years old have an OnlyFans account. It's some insane number. It's like a number where you're like, what? But that's also changed the landscape with dating apps and with all these things where now people are like, okay, I would just rather be in a relationship, like, and know that I'm in a relationship, like. Cause there's. It's not this green field. You know, there's all these options out there now. Now it's like, I just want, like, that's not fun anymore.

Nicole [00:16:43]: Yeah, no, I think you're 1,000% right. Sorry, millennials, for blaming you. I think it is dating apps, actually. Now that you say that, that makes a thousand percent sense in my mind. Because before, like, I remember when Tinder first came out and like, I feel like that was like the first one that really took off. Like, there were other ones. Yeah, Before. I don't know, the ones that, like, were around before Tinder, but I feel like Tinder was the one that, like, really blew up dating apps. And like, you said, this was on your phone. Yeah, but I feel like, honestly, even early Instagram was, like, still very innocent back then. Like, it was really just people that you knew, the filters were horrible and like, you're taking a picture of your smart water bottle. You know what I mean? Like, it was not what it was. Like, I remember when Instagram first came out.

John [00:17:29]: So it's photos.

Nicole [00:17:31]: Yeah. For photographers. Yeah, it was. It was not what it is today. But I think a thousand percent what you said is true is that there suddenly became all these options. Like, it wasn't like you had to date, like, the person that you went to school with or like someone from your job or someone from your hobby. Like, now you could find somebody that you know was maybe like one town over and you didn't mind that it was like a 30 minute drive to see each other.

John [00:17:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:18:00]: But you would have never, like, came across that person.

John [00:18:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:18:03]: Had it not been for dating apps. And then.

John [00:18:05]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:18:06]: Like, you have so many options and then, you know, you're like, more picky in a way that can be bad. Like, I don't. I think being picky in the right way. We did an episode on this, I'm pretty sure is not a bad thing. But it's gotta be about, like, the core beliefs. Not like, is he 6:3? But now it's gotten even crazier. Now it is like, guys are lying about their height because they don't want to be penalized or they're changing their age, so they don't want to be penalized or doing whatever, you know. And I'm not saying women aren't doing it either.

John [00:18:39]: Like the arms race.

Nicole [00:18:42]: Yeah. It's turned into this tool, honestly. And it definitely promoted. The grass is greener over here. Or no, it's over here. Or no, it's over here. You know, like, it did make people commitment phobes.

John [00:18:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:57]: Because they had so many options. Like, they didn't feel like, oh, yeah, they were taking it seriously because, oh, I could just swipe a little bit and get another date. Thirty minutes after the date I just went on.

John [00:19:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:09]: You know what I mean? And so. Yeah, no, I think you're 1000% right. That that is what caused situationships. And even though those are still around, I like that the generation now that's like, dating is trying to get rid of that and that I do feel like they're kind of prioritizing more like committing and like spending their lives with someone that. And. And they take care of picking that person. You know what I mean? Like, they put effort into choosing the right person. And I feel like even if you're like, okay, I'm gonna be single or I'm gonna date, I think you should. If you're serious enough about somebody to commit, you should commit.

John [00:19:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:54]: And try it out. Rather than, you know, be in this situationship where eventually, if you're in a situationship long enough, like you said, like, I would think that the person that you were with would be like, this has gone on for a really long time. Like, what is what. I need to say something.

John [00:20:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:12]: You know what I mean? Like, if you're in a situationship for months, like five, six months, you need to be like, what is going on?

John [00:20:19]: It becomes weird to say that because it's just like, you know, have you ever had it where you forgot someone's name?

Nicole [00:20:26]: Yeah. And then you're trying to.

John [00:20:28]: And then you talk to them. A couple. Like when you don't know someone's name, if the, the first or second time that you talk to them after that you don't say, oh, sorry, I forgot your name when you told me like, last week, that then it's not awkward. Right, Right. But if you don't do that in the. In the first or second time afterwards that you meet them and you still don't know their name, then you're in trouble. Like, after 10 interactions, you're not going to say, hey, by the way the last, you know, 10 times we talked, I pretended like I knew your name, but I didn't know what it was. I forgot it. Like, what is it you're not going to do? It's weird, right? So it's the same thing with the situationship. It's like now, you know, you go farther enough down the road, it's like, what are we?

Nicole [00:21:13]: Right.

John [00:21:14]: It's like, what do you mean, what are we? We've been doing this for like weeks or months, you know, so. Yeah, it seems weird at that point. So.

Nicole [00:21:22]: Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. But I do think it's a good thing. I actually saw this like, tick tock earlier that had like 10 million likes and it was essentially like promoting love and relationships and marriage. Because it was talking about, like, well, I say marriage, but didn't specifically say it, but it was talking about like choosing somebody to spend the rest of your life with. And it's like. And it made it. The way they worded it was just very. I mean, it really resonated with me.

John [00:21:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:56]: Because I'm like, that's exactly how I feel about you. But I think that that's why, like, what the younger generation's trying to get back to, like, they don't want these, like, situationships. They don't want these temporary things. Like, they want somebody that's gonna grow old with them. And most people do want that. But it's like in this era of situationships and dating apps and getting another date as soon as you can, like swiping.

John [00:22:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:27]: We have like lost that. Like, we also thought it was cool to not care.

John [00:22:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:32]: You know what I mean? Because they didn't care. So I'm not going to care. And then nobody cares. And then you are in a situationship for six months. You know what I mean? And that's why, you know the title thing that you were talking about how like situationships are for cowards.

John [00:22:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:49]: We need to dive into that because it's not wrong. Like, like you said, even if you're in the faces of like getting to know somebody and you're still kind of unsure, like, once someone is sure someone needs to say something or like, even if you're not sure, you should be having a conversation.

John [00:23:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:10]: And being like, hey, like, I enjoy spending time with you, but I fear we're not compatible in this area. Like, have an actual discussion.

John [00:23:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:19]: Rather than like avoiding it because you want the benefits of like the good stuff, but you also don't want to Talk about the messy stuff of like, are you guys, are you good together? Like, do they want to be with you? Like, you know, like people are just avoiding that. And so they just stay in this limbo for way longer than they should. And then again, that just perpetuates. It perpetuates this everywhere. Yeah, the apps perpetuate it. But then like we were talking about with the women thing, like, if women just give a man like a relationship without him having to commit.

John [00:24:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:00]: Then he's not going to, he's not going to take that step. And then like, yes, he might leave you, but if another girl's still doing that, going to give him the same thing and not ask questions, he's going to go right over there.

John [00:24:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:11]: He's going to find someone will give him the, you know, benefits. But he doesn't have to do anything. He's got to easy out. And like, men want an easy out. That's why they are afraid of divorce. It's not an easy out.

John [00:24:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:24]: That's why they're terrified of that.

John [00:24:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:25]: And so.

John [00:24:26]: Exactly. That's good.

Nicole [00:24:26]: A man is going to love a situationship because it's an easy out. He can just be like, well, were never officially together.

John [00:24:33]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:24:33]: Like how many women listening to this right now? I've heard a man say that. Probably every single one. So he's going to blame you.

John [00:24:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:41]: For the reason he didn't commit anyway. So make him own up to it.

John [00:24:45]: And really a woman has to be the one that asks for the commitment. That's what I always say anyway. Because again, because the man does need the leverage to have the captain of the ship talk. And he needs to be the one that's the authority in the relationship. And the only way he has that leverage if the woman is asking him for their relationship. So she has to bring up the topic and she has to have the. She has to basically be like, look, you can buy it or you can, you know, or you can leave the store, you're done looking, you know, like that's it. Like, there's no try before you buy here. You know, your trial period has ended up, you know, she's got to do that because it's also backwards. Like if a guy asks a woman to be his girlfriend or committed relationship, then it kind of puts him in a more like, it's not going to be as attractive to a woman. I mean, I'm sure that a lot of women would say no, I'd rather the guy ask. Or either could. But in reality, when we're being real about like a man being masculine, his natural instinct is going to be to not be in a committed relationship because he doesn't need to. He can get away with it. Right. And so the woman is actually the one that needs to ask for the thing that she wants. Right. Because if the guy wants the committed relationship, unfortunately the subtext behind that is that this guy is desperate or needy. Right. Even though that's not necessarily true. We know that that's not true. It just, it communicates that subtly, that. And so it doesn't have the same effect of a woman does that. So in order to really end the situationship situation, like you said, it has to be the women that have to really say, no, we're not going to do this. Yeah, yeah. They have to not give it up. Like, you know, like, I mean, we had that one guest. Yeah. And she was like, what did she say?

Nicole [00:26:55]: She said six months or something.

John [00:26:56]: Yeah. For no sex.

Nicole [00:26:57]: You were like, what? And then you were like, actually, I agree with you.

John [00:27:01]: But it actually does make sense. Right? I mean, that's a hard pill to swallow there. But maybe even if you're not that strict, still, it's like, hey, if you're respecting yourself as a woman, as a lady, if you want to be treated like a lady, you gotta be like, look, I don't just show up at your house, right.

Nicole [00:27:19]: Whenever you ask.

John [00:27:20]: Like, we don't just like have casual sex. That's not, you know, I mean, like, maybe you went on a date, things are going good, whatever, you had sex with the guy. But then it's like, but now it's like, all right, after that, then, okay, now what are we? Or like, you know, shortly after that, like a couple more dates, it's like, okay, you know, I'm not going to just be a call girl for you. Like, that doesn't happen. Right? Yeah, that's what it, what it, it has to be. So, yeah, that, that's that. Otherwise it's going to be situation shift.

Nicole [00:27:52]: No, and I agree with you. Like, there is something about like a woman asking, like, what are we? And like having that conversation. I agree with you. And I also think it's important for a woman to do it because a woman needs to learn how to vet in that way and have that serious conversation and know when to walk away from a man. Because obviously we've lost that by like women just staying with men that aren't committing to them. So I think by a woman having to ask, like, what are we? Or like, I am ready for us to be in a committed relationship. Where are you at? And, like, based on his answer, having to walk away if he's like, well, I'm enjoying how we are, like, you know, which I'm not saying, like, instantly walk away from that. If you want to have a conversation, do that. But if you walk away instantly, I wouldn't be upset at you either, because that's an answer, essentially. You know what I mean? But I do think that that is important because I think women, like you said, need to learn to cut that off. Like, cut off giving girlfriend benefits to a man that has not, like, told you how he feels about you and committed and, like, you should ask him, you know, like, he should. Well, I should say he should make you feel like he's invested in you and interested in you.

John [00:29:14]: Like, would be right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:16]: And if you're confused, I mean, definitely ask the question, obviously. But if you feel like it's mutual.

John [00:29:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:24]: You don't really run a risk of asking, like, what are we? Or, like, I want to be in a committed relationship.

John [00:29:32]: Yeah. You got to be a good fish. You know, it's like, you got to feel when to set the hook.

Nicole [00:29:37]: Yeah.

John [00:29:38]: Like, you know what I mean? There's a little bit of a feel to it.

Nicole [00:29:41]: Yeah.

John [00:29:41]: It's like when the first nibble comes, if you set the hook, you lose the fish. Right. But if you wait too long and then you try to set the hook, then it's gone.

Nicole [00:29:49]: Yeah.

John [00:29:49]: So it's like, you got to kind of feel it. It's like, okay, is he ready? Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:54]: Yeah, exactly.

John [00:29:55]: You know, that's how.

Nicole [00:29:56]: Yeah. So I do think it's important.

John [00:29:59]: But then it does flip. It does flip when the guy does propose. Right. So when you're in the committed relationship, then he's got to be like, okay.

Nicole [00:30:08]: Yeah. But I feel like at that point, you should know, but.

John [00:30:12]: Yeah, you should. I mean, you should definitely know before you propose. But the same thing. The girl should kind of know. Okay.

Nicole [00:30:18]: Right.

John [00:30:18]: If I tell this guy. Yeah. But I mean, I guess in that situation, it can be kind of, you know, can put him to the test where he has to decide because he might think. Have thought ahead of time. Like, okay, well, this girl's just available when I. When I want her. Like, she doesn't have any.

Nicole [00:30:37]: Like, I don't have to do anything. I just gotta send a text message and she's over here. Wow. Okay. That's easy.

John [00:30:42]: Yeah. So now it's gonna put him to

Nicole [00:30:44]: the test and don't make it easy for him. Yeah, don't give him all the things that he hasn't. He has not got boyfriend privileges yet. Don't give him the boyfriend privileges.

John [00:30:54]: And again, a lot of the reason why women start doing this I think more so. I mean there's the whole sexual liberation thing, but I don't think that's even the thing. I think it has to do more with the dating apps. And the dynamics of it is that when dating apps first came out it was just like, just guys and girls on there and there was no. But then what ended up happening is that over time it ends up sorting itself out where it's like, oh, most of these women are actually liking these guys, the top 10% of guys. And then those guys are realizing they got something, something special here. They can just play this game. This dating app is like, oh, why do I need to commit to any of these girls? I can just go and, and find a new girl to come over every single night. I can have a new girl come over. Right. And so the, those guys are the ones that all these women are getting into situationships with because they're like, well I, I like this guy, he was the best one. So I'm just wait for him. But they don't realize that there's all these other women that are doing the

Nicole [00:31:56]: same thing that you'll be waiting forever.

John [00:31:57]: Exactly. And it's created a situation where he can have the situation whereas before, without the power of the dating app. Yeah, he could go out. Like you would have guys that were players that were like, or pickup artists or whatever and they could go out and they had the skills to go and pick up multiple women. And sure, maybe they're not like seriously dating any woman, but it wasn't just as easy as swiping. Now you could just be a good looking guy and you could just swipe and you could do that without specifically coming up with a plan and developing the skills to be able to pull that off. So I think that's where it started to become that thing. And then women settled for that situation because they wanted. They started relying on dating apps and then they're like, okay, well I want the, the guy that I'm attracted to. So if he's not going to give me anything more than at least some of his time, then I'll just take some of his time.

Nicole [00:32:55]: Right.

John [00:32:56]: So.

Nicole [00:32:56]: Which is not good. Yeah, don't do that. But I'm glad that the generation now is shying away from that and I think they're Also shying away from dating apps because a lot of people are still trying to, like, now they're shifting to wanting to meet their partner in person. So I think it is kind of shifting away from that. I think people are over it. Like you said, they're over the, like on Instagram, like anyone could DM them and like have a conversation. And on dating apps that they can just swipe on whoever and go on as however many dates as they want. Like, they're, they're over that because they know what that produces, right? Because they've seen it from our generations and what has happened. So they're like, no, no, no, I don't want that. Which is good, right? Because I think the direction that they're going in, like trying to meet more like, look, we met on a dating app. So I'm not saying that dating apps are bad, but they are at this point harder to navigate because there is a lot of, I mean, there's catfishing people on there. There's like, you know, scams, there's just, there's people cheating on people. You know, there's a lot of mess on there. So like, I'm not saying that the dating apps don't work. Like, we wouldn't be here without the dating apps probably so. Cause like, how would we have come across each other? But at the same time, I think that organically meeting somebody and like kind of going back to the basics of how people originally used to meet their partners and not being wishy washy of like staying in a situationship with that person for a super long time, I think those are great things. I think like, being open and talking about the things is the right way to go and it saves everybody time. Like, I mean, the person, the guy who's trying to keep a situationship, like, he obviously doesn't care about his time because he's just taking his sweet time. But for women, we do care more about time. And so I think this is a good thing. I think it's good. I think too that women are also getting to a point where they're like, I would rather be alone than in that situation for six months with someone that's not committing to me. Whereas before they were maybe trying to convince the guy that is dating a bunch of women that if she stuck around or if she did all these girlfriendly things, that she's girlfriend material and he would just change his ways.

John [00:35:35]: Right?

Nicole [00:35:35]: But really the only way that you're going to do that is if you have the boundaries and you're like, look, I really like you. I enjoy spending time with you. I would like us to be officially boyfriend and girlfriend or a couple. Like, what are your thoughts? Well, you know.

John [00:35:50]: Yeah, and think of it this way. It's like, I mean, I mean, maybe this is a good way to put it. It's like a professional athlete, right? Everyone knows a professional athlete has a short career, right? Like, hardly any professional athlete is going to have a long career. It's like maybe like 10, 10 years for most, if even like five to 10 years. That's when they're in their prime, right. You know, they get drafted. Right. Whatever the sport is. A woman in her youth is kind of like that. She's like a professional athlete. Like, she needs to be like, okay, I have a limited amount of time to get. I'm getting a ton of offers right now because everybody wants some. I can't just be like, oh, I'll just like, I need a serious offer and take a contract and commit to this one, you know, because I have this opportunity at this point. Right. Because she's getting those offers where she knows that like that career is not going to last forever. And so she's putting more value on that time and her time. She doesn't want to just entertain like some guy that she's casually dating for two years and lose two years of that career of when she can get the best offered from the best men. You know what I'm saying? It's the same thing like a professional athlete, right? So she wants a long term contract.

Nicole [00:37:09]: Yeah.

John [00:37:10]: And that's the time to get it. And that's the smart thing to do is to realize that you've got, you know, like, you're not going to get as many opportunities later on. Because unlike men, like women's, you know, women's window is smaller for, for that, like. And so recognizing that, you have to like, not waste that time, if that makes sense.

Nicole [00:37:36]: No, I agree.

John [00:37:37]: Put it in a delicate way, but

Nicole [00:37:38]: I think too, maybe another way to view it too is that I feel like with women, most of the times from the very first date, they put all their eggs in one basket. Like, a lot of women that I know do not like to date multiple men at one time, even though I've told them to do that, like in the beginning.

John [00:37:56]: In the beginning? Yeah, for sure, in the beginning.

Nicole [00:37:58]: Because they go on one date and they like, I'm not dating anybody else, but I'm like, you don't even know. And like, they end up kind of like romanticizing this man Cause he's the only one they're focusing on. And so they end up kind of making him mentally into the man that she wants, right? And so by that point, then she's giving him more and more, and then he isn't really having to do anything, and she's kind of, like, blinded herself by what she's projecting onto him, right? And so then when it's like a few months in and they're still in that situationship, but she wants a relationship, maybe she hasn't said it right, but she thinks it's, like, too early or whatever. By the time that she has that conversation and he's like, oh, no. Like, I'm not that interested or whatever, she's completely confused because she's like, what do you. What do you mean? I was only, like, talking to you. Like, yeah, yeah. Like, I thought we had so much fun together. But it was like, it was part. She put all of her eggs in one basket part. She was, like, projecting what she's looking for onto that one person rather than dating multiple people. And so sorting out the things that you like and you don't like in those guys. And, like, what guy do you want to continue to go on a date with? What guy do you not. If you only have one guy, you're like, you either have to be like, I like him or I don't. Kind of like a few dates in.

John [00:39:23]: Right?

Nicole [00:39:23]: Whereas, you know, if you're dating multiple people in the beginning and you're going on a few dates here and there with different people, then it's easier to kind of weed it out. And you don't. You're not, like, projecting your fantasy onto, like, three different guys that you barely even know. Whereas if you're only dating one person in the very beginning, you're going to, like, put so much pressure onto that one person because you're like, you have to be the one, right? You have to be the man that I'm looking for. You know what I mean? Rather than actually looking for him.

John [00:39:55]: Unless that person is only dating one person, too, right? Which doesn't. That's the thing is, like, you don't know that, so you can't play it that way, you know, because.

Nicole [00:40:02]: But even then, I think it's not good for anybody to date, like, the first three dates.

John [00:40:08]: Yeah, It's.

Nicole [00:40:09]: You should not be dating only, like, one person. Like, unless you, like, can handle not doing what I just said.

John [00:40:16]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:40:17]: Then you can.

John [00:40:18]: Right?

Nicole [00:40:19]: But a lot of women, it's hard to not do that.

John [00:40:22]: Spread out the. The your hopes.

Nicole [00:40:27]: Because women like hyper focus. And we put. We tell ourselves stories.

John [00:40:32]: It's also the availability, right? Because a guy kind of has to be like, okay, like, you got to give a guy, a guy reasons to get in a committed relationship. One of them has to be to take you off the market, right? Because if you're just available all the time, if you're already acting like you're in a committed relationship, like you're not seeing any other guys, and you're giving this guy your time and sex, then he doesn't have anything to worry about. He's like, oh, she's just waiting around for me all the time. She just sits there and just waits. She just waits. And then when I call her up, she's there, right? It's like, but if he's like, oh, I really like this girl. She's the hottest one. She's the one that I vibe the most with. And then. But then he's like, but, oh, damn, I think she's seeing other guys because, you know, she doesn't respond to my messages for a long time. And then, like, she was busy on Thursday night. Then he's like, oh, shit. I guess I should probably, like, figure out where this thing is going. Like, see if I can get her. Like, hopefully she'll want to be my girlfriend. And then, you see what I'm saying, Then he's motivated to do it. Whereas why would he be motivated the other way? It doesn't make any sense.

Nicole [00:41:44]: No, it's true. That's very true.

John [00:41:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:47]: But ultimately, I think it's a good thing. And I think it's a good thing for marriage as well, too. Like I was talking about. Cause I think that if you're more open about talking about these things and more open about, like, what you want, like, telling somebody, like, I want to commit to you.

John [00:42:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:06]: And going for that, then I feel like it leads to better outcomes when you do propose or get married. And, you know, you do take it more seriously because you're already taking relationships more seriously. Like, we stopped taking relationships more seriously with the situationships.

John [00:42:23]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:24]: And so kind of bringing it back, I feel like also will help marriage be taken more seriously as well, too, because that's like the ultimate commitment, right? Like, marriage is the ultimate commitment. Like, that's the thing that you ask when, like, you do want to grow old with that person and, like, that you're gonna. You're making that decision. And, you know, we. That's why we started the whole podcast, because we Believe in it. And, like, we know how beautiful this level of commitment is. And I think it's beautiful that, like, people dating now are taking even the relationship commitment, the boyfriend girlfriend commitment, seriously.

John [00:43:03]: Yeah, well. Cause it's kind of like we said in one of the other episodes where recently we were talking about the. Their arranged marriages. It's like, it doesn't stop being so picky about who it is or what your options are, like, and realize that no matter who it is, I'm not saying that there's not better or worse people for you, but, like, you're still gonna have to. Majority of the journey is gonna be, like, 90% of it is gonna be in their relationship. The work that you're doing to build it. So, you know, so many people were spending so much time focusing on the 10% of, like, starting with the right person, which, again, I'm not saying that you should. Shouldn't spend any focus on that. I think if you have the ability to pick, then you should choose wisely. But at the same time, you have to recognize that it doesn't matter. You could start with someone who you think is perfect for you, and then when you get in a relationship, you can ruin the whole fucking thing. Or they could end up not actually wanting to grow and work on themselves or whatever happened. You know what I'm saying? Or you can start with someone who's. Who's not really the best match for you. But then you guys work together and you grow together and you become a wonderful couple. So I think that's why the sooner you get into that stage of doing that work, the better it is. And also, the more committed you are, realizing that you can't be like, oh, this person's not working out. We're just not a good fit. It's like, no, you didn't really do all the work in order to get, like, you know, most people, after some. Out of. After a couple years, you're gonna be like, we're not a good fit.

Nicole [00:44:43]: Right.

John [00:44:43]: Because you haven't done the work, you know, well.

Nicole [00:44:45]: And everybody changes in different ways. And it's like, you have to realize that you have to go through that together. Like, that's part of a commitment. Even when you're a boyfriend and girlfriend. Like. Like, people date for a long time. They date from, like, high school until they're out of college. Like, your life changes a lot in that time frame.

John [00:45:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:05]: And so, like, you know, you have to realize that you're gonna go through changes and you have to, like, all relationships Require work. Yeah, but it's not. It doesn't mean that that isn't the relationship for you. Because I think a lot of people. And also with the dating apps, it's like the grass is greener on the other side. They're like, oh, well, it might be easier with someone else. Like, I wouldn't have to deal with this problem with someone else. And that, like, pushes them towards finding someone else.

John [00:45:35]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:45:36]: But what a lot of people don't realize is that a lot of the things that make people go, oh, well, I wouldn't deal with this with someone else. That doesn't excuse, like, abuse or things like that.

John [00:45:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:48]: Like, those are obviously an issue, and you should not be in a relationship like that. But, like, minor inconveniences or, like, going through a hard time or, like, facing things in your life that you haven't had to face and your partner's helping you go through them, like, that is normal. And, like, that is going to happen. Like, things are going to change. You're gonna have to face them. But if you have a partner that wants to help you with those things and face those things with you.

John [00:46:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:22]: That is so important to a relationship, and that is, like, one of the core things, like you said, that you should be looking for. Like, you should be looking for someone that, like, loving them is easy, but also, you know that they're going to do the hard work with you.

John [00:46:42]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:46:42]: Like, they're not afraid of the hard work. You're not afraid of the hard work. You're going to make this work because that's what it takes for all relationships, for being boyfriend and girlfriend and going into being married. It's not sunshine and rainbows that we have, as society convinced ourselves that, oh, well, I'll just find somebody that does all the things that I want that doesn't exist. And I was one of the people who thought that before, you know, And I mean, like, when I met you, it did feel easy, and I did feel like we had a good connection. But also, you have helped me face some of the, like, darkest parts of myself that I couldn't even have faced on my own. And it's been hard, but I wouldn't want it any other way. Like, I wouldn't want the. Like, you to never do that and then our relationship just be easy because you. You aren't shining the light on things

John [00:47:38]: that I need to work on, not letting you become the best version of yourself.

Nicole [00:47:42]: Right.

John [00:47:43]: Possible, you know? Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:45]: Right.

John [00:47:45]: I agree.

Nicole [00:47:46]: So, like, I'm glad that they're getting rid of the grass is greener on the other side. Or like, this isn't how it's supposed to be. Like, yes, if you're going through something like abusive or things like that. Yes. That's not how it's supposed to be. However, if you're having, like just a hard time relating to each other, things like that, it's probably some other sort of issue. And you should look at some of our other videos because it's probably communication or resentment or who knows? And those things you can work through. And so again, like, not to shy away from the situationship thing, but I think it goes into that by now people are being like, look, I want to be single, or like, let's do this or let's don't exactly, you know, like not being, not shying away from that, because that's also part of doing the hard work. Like, it's just the very beginning.

John [00:48:34]: Yeah. Because you can't start doing any of that if you're not actually in a real relationship. If it's not defined, then you can't actually build anything. So you're just wasting time, essentially. Right? I mean, sure, maybe you're having a little bit of fun, but you're essentially wasting time, especially on the woman's side where she might have a more limited amount of time, where she's got the best options that are available to her and so she's got to make some choices. So, yeah, so I think it's. Overall, it's a good thing and it's inevitable. I mean, the pendulum always swings one way and then, and then the other. So, you know, we were in a very promiscuous, like, everything goes phase for a while and now it's swinging back to more conservative. Like, okay, there's a reason why, like, prudence and being a little bit more conservative in sexuality makes sense. You know, people are starting to see that because when you see the other extreme and you're like, well, shit, I don't even have any friends. I don't even actually have any relationships. I don't even know, like, what is the fucking point? Then it's like, okay, well, I'd rather follow some rules, right? And like, have other people follow some of these rules too. And then there's some stability, there's some actual depth to things. It's not just everyone has as much freedom as they, you know, so, like. Cause there's always a trade off. Like you've got freedom and you got security, and those things are at ends, at different ends. And when you want more freedom, you're going to lose security to do it. And you want more security, you're going to have to give up some freedoms in order to get security. That's how it works.

Nicole [00:50:14]: No, you're not wrong. Yeah, that's a good way, I think, to round it out. But we did get jinxed. But it's my fault. I. Come on. Here we do a whole episode about me being avoidant, and then I still am avoidant. Way to go, Nicole.

John [00:50:33]: Hey.

Nicole [00:50:35]: But no, I mean, do you want to. I mean, I obviously messed up. Like, I hurt your feelings by something that I said, and then I was not making you feel heard because I was already, like, kind of like, being like, this is ruined in my head. Like, I ruined it, you know? Like, I don't. He doesn't even want to be with me. And, like, rather than listening to the things that you were saying, I mean, like, I was listening to what you were saying.

John [00:51:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:12]: But that's what I was translating as well, too. And so it just felt, like, hopeless and, like, I had already ruined it. And like, that. How can I even try? Because I'm. What if I mess up and then he's just going to be even more upset. Like, I was doing all this in my head, and I didn't realize that that also is. Like, I did realize that avoidant people do that because I've been talking about it, but I didn't realize that how deeply. Yeah, I. That had been ingrained in me and that I was still doing it.

John [00:51:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:48]: Like, I didn't realize that the, like, convincing myself of something different was me still doing that avoidant behavior of, like, making it worse than it actually is and, like, convincing myself that, like, it's already messed up. And, like, why am I gonna try? Cause that'll make him more upset if I mess up. Because I told him I'm not gonna mess up. And how can I promise that? Cause I'm a human and I'm gonna mess up. Like, all of that is going in my head. And so I'm like, so it's a. Like, so I already ruined it. You know what I mean? Like, that's ultimately what, like, my brain came to. And then I was just like. And I also, like, that was happening. But then after really listening to you.

John [00:52:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:34]: I realized that I was also doing that with you as a person.

John [00:52:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:39]: Like, I was like, well, he's. In my mind. I'm like, well, he's going to do something to hurt me or he's going to, like, betray me in some way. And I was treating you as if, like, you were the type of person that had already done that.

John [00:52:54]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:55]: Because my brain convinced myself of that. And because, honestly, I had already told you that I, like, never really felt like I could trust anybody.

John [00:53:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:07]: And that includes myself. And most avoidant people.

John [00:53:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:10]: They don't trust themselves either because they've never felt like they could really trust anybody to not, like, let them down or hurt them or whatever. But I didn't realize that I was truly viewing you from that. Like, it felt like I was protecting myself from if you would do that to me.

John [00:53:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:29]: But it was just already treating you like you had done that, and that's not fair.

John [00:53:35]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:53:37]: And so I'm sorry for doing that. And look, everybody makes mistakes. I mean, like I said, we did a whole episode of avoidant behaviors, and I was still doing them. Like, I had worked through a lot of the surface level avoidant behaviors, but it does run really deep and deeper than most people think. And so, like, without you talking to me, like, I still. I mean, I still was perpetuating that in our relationship, even though I was trying not to. Like, when I told you I trusted you, I meant that, but it wasn't true because I was not viewing you how you actually are and how you acted. I was viewing you from my fear.

John [00:54:24]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:25]: And so even though, like, mentally, I did feel like I was trusting you, and I do trust you.

John [00:54:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:31]: It's like, I wasn't actually.

John [00:54:35]: Yeah, that's a good way to describe it. Yeah, I think that's. That's accurate.

Nicole [00:54:39]: And I don't think you can realize this unless you realize, like, the stories that you're telling yourself.

John [00:54:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:46]: Or, like, the way you're perpetuating your past, like, hurt and trust issues or whatever it is.

John [00:54:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:54]: Because you're probably painting the person that you're dealing with in a way that is not even actually true. It's coming from your hurt and your trauma and your past or whatever you want to call it. And it's typically a habit. Like, it's a habitual behavior. It's a habitual thought pattern.

John [00:55:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:14]: Like, you might not even realize you're doing it. And you might think it's logical. You might think you're protecting yourself, but you're not. Like, not really. You're just hurting the person that is showing up for you for the first time in your life.

John [00:55:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:29]: It seems like. And you're just. You're making them into the Villain already. So.

John [00:55:36]: Yeah. And it's hard because it's like I was like, there's something off. Like. Like you don't even know because I don't know what's going on in your head. But I. I suspect that that's what's happening. And it's like. But then I'm like, I know. Like I know myself because I show up every day, I wake up early, I do all the stuff that I'm supposed to do. Like I'm there. Like I know what kind of person I am. I'm like, I don't feel like the way that I'm like just the slight way that the words are coming across sometimes, like that it's lining up with who I'm showing up as every day. But it makes sense now and I get it. But. But I think it's good. I mean, there's always gonna be things to work through, and we work through them together. And I'm proud of you and I'm proud of the realizations that you had. And. Yeah. And it was meaningful. Very meaningful to me to be able to see you with the mask off, you know, like, really vulnerable, which I feel like more and more of it's just disappearing. Which is good. Cause that's. That's what I want, you know, Because I want you. And. Yeah. And so I felt truly, truly heard. And I understand also. I think that's the thing is, like, I understand why. Right. It's not malicious. It's not like, you know, it's just. It's a block that you couldn't see. And then we work through it and you're able to see it. And I don't have that block anymore. And.

Nicole [00:57:10]: Well, and I just want to say too, like, people are probably thinking I said something nasty to you. Our things are very. If you heard how this all started, you would be like.

John [00:57:21]: You would think, like, you'd be like,

Nicole [00:57:23]: you guys had a disagreement or like, this is your guys fight. It started from this.

John [00:57:28]: It was from chocolate. It was from. We made Dubai chocolate bars from a kit, right. That I had bought. And then we were watching the movie the Junior Arnold Schwarzenegger. Because Nicole is like, her great science invention was having a man have a baby. I'm like, there's actually a movie where a man has a baby.

Nicole [00:57:51]: And I had never seen it.

John [00:57:53]: Yeah, she'd never seen it. I was like, wow, that's weird. So we had to watch that. But in the instructions on the thing, it said after you're done with it, to put The Dubai chocolate in the refrigerator. Right. And. And, you know, chocolate and cheese in the refrigerator. Like, it's room temperature. It's best. Right. So anyway, I think you said something about, like, that you put it in the refrigerator. And I was like, oh, yeah, I don't think that we should refrigerate it. Like, there's no. None of the ingredients need to be refrigerated. And then. And then you said, well, the instructions say that it needs to be put in the refrigerator. And then I forget exactly what the exact sequence was. But then I think I said, well, yeah, I don't think we'll need to put it in the refrigerator or something like that because none of the ingredients are refrigerated ingredients, so it should be fine. But I got it kind of like. And then I think you kept on repeating the same thing or kept on saying, no, well, let's refrigerate it. And then I was like, okay, let's pause the movie, because I was really upset by the fact that I had said this. And then it was like, not being taken as, like.

Nicole [00:59:09]: Like, I didn't trust you.

John [00:59:10]: Yeah, they didn't trust me. Yeah, exactly. And it's like. And even if it's like, who cares about chocolate bars? Who cares? It's like, this is something that, like, is deeply important to me. And it might seem silly, like, from the outside. That's why I'm trying to describe it in a way. And it is from the outside, but it just. It.

Nicole [00:59:27]: It was the cumulation of all the other things. And then it was like a deeper. Something small that set it off.

John [00:59:33]: Yeah, it's a deeper thing that was like, not about the chocolate or anything. It was like, you know, it's like for. For me too. I think for both of us in our relationship, when there's anything that's. That we find that's off, you know, then we gotta fix it. We gotta get to the bottom of it and figure. And sometimes when it looks like, oh, it's just like, what is that little thing? And then you dig a little deeper and it's like this huge thing underneath and you're like, oh, okay, then we definitely gotta fix that. So that was one of those kind of issues where it was just like. It pointed to something that was a deeper issue that we needed to address.

Nicole [01:00:13]: Yeah, no, definitely. And I'm glad that you told me about it because, like, even during the initial part of our conversation, I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm like, I don't. What did I do? I didn't. Like, you're, like, you're disrespectful. I'm like, I just said it goes in the fridge. Like, I didn't even really get it, you know? And then like you said, when we dug deeper, I was like, oh, like, this is. And I probably wouldn't have really been able to uncover that without your help.

John [01:00:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:46]: Because if I don't have someone to talk to about this, how am I going to uncover that? I'm, like, painting you in this light.

John [01:00:52]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:00:53]: With my own thoughts. You know what I mean?

John [01:00:56]: And it was. And it was weird because, like, the way that you were answering about what I was saying was indicating a bigger issue than what I even thought it was. You know what I'm saying? And that's where I started to get really, like, worried. I'm like, okay. Like, this really is something because. Because it came down to the perception of, like, how you're viewing me, because I kept on. I'm like, you don't really see me. Like, you don't really know who I am. Like, really, really know who I am. And it. And it. And it was true to a degree because you had, like.

Nicole [01:01:27]: I mean, I painted a picture of you.

John [01:01:29]: Yeah. You thought I was as awesome, great guy. Like, it's not like you had a negative, like a holy negative, but you also had this. This veneer that was on top of who I was, that was sort of blocking out the real me in certain areas. Right. And that. And that made me feel like I was not seen or understood. And. But. But now I do. So, yeah. Yeah. I'm glad, my love. All right.

Nicole [01:02:00]: Whoever thinks that it's bad that we sit so far away from each other is probably, like, see, they can't even hug each other or something right now.

John [01:02:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:10]: But no, it's true. And I appreciate you so much for having the patience to go through this with me. And besides you not feeling seen, the other issue was that, like, I was already acting like it was ruined because I made a mistake in that I didn't want to continue because I was afraid to make another mistake and that it would just blow it up anyway. So I was already, like, I was making the situation worse than it actually was in reality. Which, you know, I'm just putting all this out here in case other people recognize, because, again, you know, with the avoidant episode, we did, like, people have to be so aware that they're avoidant. You have to really try to understand how that's like, leaking into your life.

John [01:03:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:02]: Because a lot of people don't. I didn't. Not to this level.

John [01:03:07]: Even when I think one thing that's maybe just, like a general lesson that everyone could take from. From this, which is super important, which is that whenever you do something, quote wrong, you're either gonna do one of two things. You're either gonna internalize and somewhat beat yourself up and then play some kind of scenario in your head about, like, how. Like, you're either gonna look at how does this affect you, or what does it say about you, and it's a, you focused, or you're gonna be focused on the other person that you did something wrong or hurt, and you can't do both. And so, like, it's a seemingly innocent mistake to be like, oh, to beat yourself up and to focus on yourself. But then you're actually not helping the person. Like, and it doesn't help you either, because then you spiral. Then you say, oh, I ruined things, and stuff like that. But if you shift your focus and be like, okay, how can I just actually provide aid to the person, the other person, then all that other stuff doesn't. It doesn't happen, like, the internal monologue and all that stuff. And. And the problem. But. But we all tend to do this to, like, I. I've caught myself in that same situation. What do we call it? We call it shame. That's what it is. And shame, it doesn't help the other person, and it hurts us even more. And so it's like, we got to not get into that shame. Yeah. Otherwise. Yeah. Because then it's like, it's not because. Because, you know, as you're going through that and we're having that discussion, I'm like, okay, but all this stuff that you're saying, it only hurts me more. It doesn't help me. It's like, if you're like, I've ruined everything and I should just, like, give up or whatever. Like, again, you weren't saying those exact words. But if that's kind of the set, I'm like, well, okay, but that doesn't. Like, that's not fixing anything. That's just making things worse.

Nicole [01:05:06]: But I think we think that if we beat ourselves up, then the other person doesn't have to exactly.

John [01:05:11]: Where. Where reality, like, correct.

Nicole [01:05:13]: Yeah, it's the. Like you said, when reality is, the other person just wants to feel like you care. To fix the problem. Like, to care about them.

John [01:05:21]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:05:22]: So, yeah.

John [01:05:23]: All right, well, that's it for this week.

Nicole [01:05:25]: We'll hopefully we won't have any more segments, knock on wood. If they are for the good.

John [01:05:32]: Yeah. If there's stuff that needs to be worked on, then, then, then hopefully we do have the opportunity to work on them. But, you know, but I mean, I agree about that.

Nicole [01:05:42]: But it's like, you know, just space them out. Don't, like, get them back to back.

John [01:05:47]: Yeah. All right. You can check us out on the web@betterthanperfectpod.com you can on the web on the World Wide Web if you want. Shoot us an email at Better than perfect podcast gmail.com and like.

Nicole [01:06:04]: And subscribe. Share.

John [01:06:05]: Yeah. We'll see you next week.

Nicole [01:06:07]: Bye.

Nicole [00:00:00]: You got lock in back into your relationship. Build it on something that is unshakable. That doesn't change that even if your feelings are all over the place because you're going through something, that you're still going to be there for your partner and your family because it's built on more than just how you feel in the moment. It's built on you guys connecting on such a deep level that you know that even if you're feeling off, your partner's got your back, they're going to help you or they'll pick up the load until you're feeling better.

John [00:00:27]: Beyond the perfect we discover through our flow us we complete each other Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:51]: I thought you were going to pick a random word to, like.

John [00:00:54]: I kind of did emphasize two.

Nicole [00:00:56]: I know. I was like, is he going to pick a random one?

John [00:00:59]: Two is like the expected one, not three.

Nicole [00:01:01]: Yeah, we're not a throuple.

John [00:01:05]: I could be like, next time I'll be like, we're two imperfect people.

Nicole [00:01:10]: Yeah, imperfect.

John [00:01:14]: But today we're talking about arranged marriage or is arranged marriages a good thing? Yeah, and it came about because you. You overheard me talking to a coaching client.

Nicole [00:01:24]: Well, we kind of also talked about this, you know, from time to time on our own, and it was on one of our, like, lists that we had made a while back. And I mean, it's interesting because, like, I like the way that you explain it, and I like that it honors the commitment that marriage is and shows how much that you can make something work. Like, more than you think. Because I think a lot of people, again, think, like, oh, we're just not compatible or whatever. Like, like, they made a wrong choice.

John [00:01:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:55]: But these people don't even have a choice a lot of the times. A lot of arranged marriages, they're not even picking who they want to be with. Their family is. So it kind of, like, debunks some of that in a way, or I should say unlimited. It shows that you can work through a lot more than you think you can in your relationships.

John [00:02:17]: Well, in the context of actually where it came up in the coaching question is really good, actually, because they were asking me about. He was asking me about, like, you know, basically about preparing for potential divorce and, like, contingency plans and. And, like, is it. Is it even worth it to get married? Right. And. And What I was talking about was like the benefit of marriage, of having a deeper. Like having that deep level of intimacy and how the benefit is that it is going to cause you to grow as a person, right? The things that. And having that commitment makes you stick in that thing. And it kind of came out where we got onto the arranged marriage thing. What I was talking about was that he was saying, I can't remember exactly, but basically it was like I was telling him how, you know, you can have someone that you're attracted to and infatuated with, and it's more likely that that won't work out than an arranged marriage. Right. Why is arranged marriage have a higher chance of success? And it's because when the basis of the relationship is this infatuation, this feeling of love and sexual attraction or physical attraction, then if that fades, there's really nothing left. And also, you're not really maybe seeking the depth of the level of intimacy that you're loving someone unconditionally. You're not seeking out the right thing in that relationship and marriage. And you're more likely because you chose to unchoose, right? Whereas an arranged marriage, a lot of times those are more successful. But it doesn't mean also in an arranged marriage that you're doing things right. Like you might stay together and be kind of like roommates because that's culturally acceptable, or you've learned to adapt to each other, but you still haven't gone to that level of depth. But I would say that you're more likely to go to that level of depth with an arranged marriage because you're there. Obviously there's like a cultural reason why you're there, to raise a family and things. But also, if you understand the deeper spiritual concept of marriage, you're there to build that depth, to take a almost random person and fall in love with them, build the love, build intimacy. Because the reality is that has to be built. It's not something that you just have. And I think that's really the key thing is that you know when you have the choice. And I'm not saying that arranged marriage is necessarily the best thing. I'm just saying that it's a good example of when you have that choice, then you're basing that marriage on whether or not you feel like you're compatible with this person or you're attracted to that person. And so that's not a very strong foundation. The stronger foundation is being like, I obviously, even if you're like, I want to be attracted to someone that's fine. But to be like, I want to build the level of depth and intimacy that I cannot build on my own. And I can't build with a more shallow relationship. Because the guy I was coaching also, he was talking about, well, why? I mean, I can date a woman. I can even have a kid with her. I don't necessarily need to be married. And I'm like, no, no. Making that level of commitment, it's valuable because it's an investment where you're like, I am putting myself 100% into this thing. And that's what's required in order to reach that level of depth. And you don't have to reach that level of depth, but it's an amazing experience to reach that. And a peak experience in life and something that cannot be duplicated, like, there's no other love that you can have, even having children or whatever, that is going to be the same as becoming one with another person and having that level of emotional and depth of connection which cannot just exist. It has to be built and created. And so that's why the whole arranged marriage thing came up. I'm like, most people would probably be better in an arranged marriage understanding what I said, because that's going to eliminate the other possibility of I'm in this for the wrong reason.

Nicole [00:06:42]: We could just end the episode there. No, that was really beautifully put together, and it's so true. Like, it. And to, like, makes me think about the episode we just did and proves our point that, like, that superficial, like, shallow experience is so fragile. Like when you explained how when you know, you get to choose in your relationship is the foundation is attraction and, like, a feeling things that can fade or come back or, like, flow fluctuate, right? Then your house feels like it's gonna fall down. Sometimes it does fall down. Then you have to build it back up, and then it falls down again. If your foundation is built on that.

John [00:07:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:28]: If your foundation is built on something deeper than that that is unbreakable.

John [00:07:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:34]: Then you don't feel that way. You don't feel, you know, that the house is crumbling, and then, oh, we got to build it back up. The house is always there. No matter if a hurricane comes, a tornado comes or whatever. Like, the house stands still because you have that foundation that is so strong.

John [00:07:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:51]: That it can withstand anything. Because, again, like, looks are going to fade. Like, we're all going to become not as attractive as we once were.

John [00:08:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:01]: Or something could happen that, like, completely changes your partner's life and your life.

John [00:08:07]: Right? Exactly.

Nicole [00:08:08]: And Are you just going to leave? Because they're not able to do the things that, that they were able to do before. Like, that's not how it should be, right? You know what I mean? Not when you're making a commitment like marriage. And it shouldn't be scary. I know that men are scared, right? But it's so important for men to hear what you just said as another man that like, you're not even scratching the surface of like, love and intimacy and like connectiveness that you could be at, right? If you're playing it safe, if you're like waiting on the shore and you don't want to get out there and like ride the wave of life, you know what I mean? You don't even know what it feels like to be connected to somebody because you're so afraid of what you might lose and making the wrong decision, which I get. I am not saying that getting married should not be a decision that you take seriously, but like you said, with arranged marriage, they don't even have a choice. But they know that marriage is serious, right? So they're going to make it work. They're going to build what they need to build. They're going to build that strong foundation. And that's the thing is like a lot of men today, they're like, I don't want to build, right? I'll just stand on the shore here. I don't want to build. You know, I'm okay with like a straw hut, right? But they've never even been in a sturdy ass brick house, right? And been like, oh, I'm actually really the safest I've ever felt here. And like, yeah, the, the most in love and the most like connected to this person that I've ever felt. Never even felt this. They're just still in their straw little hut on the beach. You know what I mean? Like, so it's so important what you just said and it's so important that, you know, people understand and I think especially men, because they are typically the ones more afraid of making the commitment that it's how you build it, right? And it's how you go into marriage that matters a lot more. Well, and obviously like who you pick, since we do have that option. But it can't be based on the superficial things when you make that choice or your foundation will shatter.

John [00:10:15]: Most people would be better off having someone randomly picked for them than their, their pick. And their reason why is not because they would pick poorly for themselves. It's because they. That that choice gives them the ability to unchoose, you see, because then they're focused on the wrong thing, right? Like the thing that can happen is that it transforms. And like an arranged marriage where you're not necessarily even initially attracted to the person gives you the ability to see what that transformation could be like. For example, you know, I'm attracted to your body because it's your body, right? You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:10:54]: Because it's attached.

John [00:10:55]: Whatever form you took, I would be attracted to because it's you. Because I've built that with you. And it doesn't matter what form that you took, I like, because it's your form. It's attractive to me. You see what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:11:09]: Which a lot of men, I think

John [00:11:10]: can't even fathom, which is something that could never change. Because even if you change, your form changes. Let me say that it doesn't. I'm attracted to you because I'm attracted to your form, because you are in it.

Nicole [00:11:25]: Right?

John [00:11:25]: You know what I'm saying? And that's way more powerful. That's permanent. There's no thing that can change that thing. And that's a rock solid foundation, right?

Nicole [00:11:35]: Yeah.

John [00:11:36]: And it's like the other thing I was telling him about that is that love is not a feeling, it's an action. I mean, it can be. You can feel the feeling of infatuation, of love, but it's the action of love that creates love, the feeling, the deeper love, the feeling, because it's the act of doing the thing, the act of loving that creates that feeling. And that's what you're really, really after. Because if you're looking at love, the feeling to be the thing to sustain you, well, that can fade over time. And that will then end the relationship and prevent you from having the death, the depth. But if it's love, the action, that creates love, the feeling, then they can be created at any time. And that's where even, you know, people that are going through it and they're like, oh, maybe they're not right for me and they should break up and stuff. It's like usually they're like, they're focusing on love, the feeling. They're like, I don't feel it. And it's. Well, yeah, but you don't feel it because you haven't created it, right? But if you have an intimacy and a depth with any person, you will have love the feeling come from that, from that creation of it. And it is possible with, I think, just about any person, like the arranged marriage situation. I think that's true. It's like. And that's why it's like, I'm not saying that, oh, everyone should have an arranged marriage, but I'm saying that most people probably would be better off in that situation because they would have taken away that choice, which if they felt like they had to make this thing work right then, then the only chance of them having that depth of intimacy would be with this person and they would find that way.

Nicole [00:13:16]: They would do the work.

John [00:13:17]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:13:18]: Make it happen. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. Like, I. I think you've explained it so well. And again, I think that more men need to hear this. Right. Like, you were on your coaching call when you were having this conversation. Because I, I do think. I'm not saying that women always invest more.

John [00:13:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:40]: But I do think that men are afraid. Again, it's like they're afraid financially, they're afraid. Who knows? There's other things. But I feel like typically the most men are afraid financially.

John [00:13:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:51]: But at the same time, if you ask them to be real and honest, are they doing all they can do? The answer would probably be no.

John [00:14:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:01]: Like, they're not really doing everything to. To show that love, to, like, make that choice. To love. Right, Right. To establish that stronger foundation. They're just like, well, she's hot and I'm attracted to her right now, so that's enough for me. You know what I mean? Like, and so they're like, living in that foundation. And even if the woman is, like, trying to have a deeper connection, if he's trying to keep it shallow because he's like, well, she might leave me.

John [00:14:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:30]: You know what I mean? Then she can't really develop that on her own. And I mean, even the man can't really develop it on his own either.

John [00:14:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:38]: Because with arranged marriages, it takes two people. Right. Like, it's usually both people making it work because they don't feel like they have another option.

John [00:14:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:46]: Which is what every married person should feel like. Right. Like, ultimately you're not going to give your best in a marriage if you feel like, well, I could get divorced and then I could find another husband or I could find another wife. You're not putting your all into that situation if you think that there's another option. Like, when you get married, it should feel like. Like you should treat it like, this is it. This is my exactly last relationship. This is the person I'm going to die with.

John [00:15:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:15]: So how am I going to make this the best thing? Because that's why I got into this, it felt like the best thing. That's why I got married.

John [00:15:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:15:22]: Because I was like, there's no one else better out there for me. I genuinely felt that. So why would I not continue to, like, work towards that and create that in our life Right. With you when that is what marriage essentially was supposed to be? Right. Like, it's good that divorce is not stigmatized like it used to be. However, in a way, it's kind of bad, though, because people aren't taking marriage as seriously. And I don't think it has to be stigmatized for people to take it seriously if they hear something like this and decide to make the choice. Like, unfortunately, things are stigmatized or demonized or made bad because people don't have the self discipline.

John [00:16:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:10]: To do it unless they're shamed or guilted or whatever. Yeah. But even then, it shouldn't be that way.

John [00:16:17]: But even then, that's not gonna push someone on the path of actually building the death. Because a lot of people, they'll criticize my viewpoint and they'll say, well, a lot of people in arranged marriages are not happy. They're just staying together because they're in arranged marriage and it's not okay to have a divorce. And so. But they're not in love with each other. And my answer to that is that a lot of people that initially fell in love with each other and are still married are not. They're the same as an arranged marriage. They're that you're saying, so where is the equation? What's the different. What's the differential in those things? Like, what makes a difference? It's actually, you can be in an arranged marriage and not ever love the person. Right. Or you could be in a relationship where you were attracted to the person and you don't love them anymore and you're married and you're just kind of roommates. The difference is not the attraction. It is what you do afterwards. Right. So, like, there's other people that could be in arranged marriage, and they're not initially attracted to each other, but they build a depth of a relationship because they're like, we're not just here to, like, start a family and raise kids. We're here to explore the depth of each other's souls and our own soul through this union in order to become better and to become one. And they understand that concept and they build an attraction to the other person that is not even based in the physical. Right. Where the physical. Just like I said, like, I'm attracted to Your body because you, it's yours because you, you occupy it. It's your form. But, but the same thing goes for the non arranged marriage where, you know, it's like if you don't understand that concept, you're going to be in trouble because eventually you're going to end up in the same. Like it didn't matter if you got an arranged marriage or not. For most people it doesn't matter because at the end of the day they're going to be in the same situation as two people that got put together because the initial thing faded or their looks changed or whatever it was, and now they're in the exact same place. So you might as well have been in an arranged marriage and started in that place because then you would have not thought that there was something wrong because that's the start. And I think even if you take you and I, right, I don't think it changes the situation. I think what it is is that we had a little bit of a head start because we had an instant connection of depth that was there and we still had to build that, but we had a head start rather than just two random people, you know what I'm saying? But I do believe that you could build that level of depth with anyone. It's good to find someone that I think maybe you could get a head start with. But if it's based completely off of the physical attraction and you're not understanding the concept behind it, then it's not gonna matter, right?

Nicole [00:19:05]: Well, yeah, like you said, we both invested too initially to like harboring that deep connection from the very beginning. It probably would have fizzled out if we didn't work on it even back then. So it's like. Cause I think a lot of people, you know, think, oh, well, I'll just meet somebody and it'll click. And like you said, that did happen with us. But if you just think that you click and then you don't have to do anything like, oh, I'm already clicked in, like we're already clicked, then yeah, you will end up in probably a really bad place because you'll be like, oh, I thought that we were like perfect together. And then you'll feel so disconnected.

John [00:19:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:46]: What people don't realize is that, I mean, it's kind of like the cliche, right, that like marriages are easy but they take a lot of work or however, you know, the thing is said over and over and I'm sure different ways, but it's because it's like our marriage is easy, right? But we're doing a lot of work.

John [00:20:05]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:06]: And not work as in, like, we argue all the time and like, we don't see eye to eye and whatever. Like, that's not work. I think when people hear, like, marriage is hard work from people, right. They're like, oh, they're fighting all the time and they got to like, figure out how to like each other. And like. No, that's not the work.

John [00:20:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:24]: The work is maintaining that connection by investing in your partner, by investing in the relationship, by investing in yourself so that you can show up the best for your partner. That's the hard work. Yeah, but it makes the marriage easy. It makes the relationship easy. It makes it feel so safe and comforting and stable.

John [00:20:46]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:47]: Because you're doing the work. Like you don't get a safe and stable house foundation. The brick house.

John [00:20:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:55]: By just being like, putting a brick down or whatever. You gotta, like, lay the cement. You gotta put each brick on brick by brick. Like, it's not just one and done. Like you. It's not like you meet somebody and you're like, yep, we're gonna be together. And we get along well now, so I'm sure we'll get along. No, like, that's why they also say you have to like, keep dating your partner and stuff. And even then it's like, yes, the dates are good. Cuz like, we don't even go on dates all the. All the time. But we invest in each other all the time. I mean, even if we're at home, like we're connecting, we're like talking, we're like, you know, building that stuff. And I think people talk about the dates because maybe some people aren't prioritizing those things at home. And I get it because like, a lot of people, it's like both people working and so they got a lot going on. They got kids or whatever, so they do need to take that date night to reconnect. Right, but you can also reconnect every night when you're in bed with your partner or take a second out of the day to like, have a conversation with your partner or like, do something kind for your partner, like invest in that. And yeah, I think arranged marriages, they realize that they're gonna have to make that investment. I think, again, I've never been in one, but I would think that when you know that you're gonna marry somebody and you know it's a done deal and you know that it's gonna happen, and you know that that's your partner, that's gonna be your partner for life. That's gonna be who you die with. You know, you're about to do some work, you know, that you're about to like invest and you're about to like figure a lot of stuff out and that you're going to like have to communicate with each other.

John [00:22:29]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:22:30]: To create like a, an easy feeling marriage.

John [00:22:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:35]: A safe feeling marriage, a comfortable feeling marriage. And so they are set up better than a lot of people because like you said, if you come into this and you're just like, well, I'm attracted to them, we get along and you know, we clicked from the very beginning.

John [00:22:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:22:48]: So I'm good. Like I'm not worried about anything. And then a few years later when those people are getting a divorce, it's like, what happened? And then like they act like they don't know.

John [00:22:58]: Yeah. Like I fell out of love. I don't.

Nicole [00:23:00]: Right. Like I don't love them anymore.

John [00:23:02]: Well, like I didn't see all these things about them that they, that I don't like. Now that I realized I didn't like from the start, it's like because I was infatuated. Like these are the things that are justify it.

Nicole [00:23:14]: Yeah.

John [00:23:14]: Right, Right.

Nicole [00:23:15]: But if you go into it like an arranged marriage like you said, and you're like, I'm going to have to keep this going. Well, one, you can't say. I mean people do say. But you can't say that you got up to the altar and said all these nice things and you didn't want to marry that person.

John [00:23:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:30]: Obviously unless you're in an arranged marriage or something. But even then they're not saying that cuz they know what their future is. So it's like if you got all the way up there.

John [00:23:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:39]: And you're acting like you didn't want to. I have a little bit of empathy for you. But it's about this.

John [00:23:46]: You might have been pressured. Sure.

Nicole [00:23:48]: But even then.

John [00:23:49]: But you still, that's your responsibility and you still made the commitment and, and you still said the things and you know, you, you still did it.

Nicole [00:23:56]: Right. So. Right. But it's like. But if you're, you get up there.

John [00:24:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:01]: And one, you already know because in your relationship you've also been building up to the point of getting married. You know that you're gonna continue to do this work and you're gonna continue to grow throughout your relationship and you're mentally prepared for that. Cause I do think that that's also why we have succeeded is because from the very beginning, we were both very growth mindset. We both wanted to be the best version of ourselves for each other and help each other grow and help each other work through things. And so when we got married, it wasn't like, oh, we don't have to do anything anymore. You know what I mean? Like, we were already like, this is the path we're gonna go down. And it's the path that. And we're aware of that.

John [00:24:39]: And this podcast helped us a lot. I mean, I kind of hate to think where we. I mean, we'd still be in a decent place, but I do. It does. It would scare me to think of, like, where would we be without doing this podcast? Because this podcast, where do you think we would be? Not. Not as far as we are. I think we'd still, you know, obviously we'd still be together. We'd still. But like.

Nicole [00:25:00]: Cause we have to own up to all of our stuff all the time

John [00:25:03]: and just making a concerted effort to focus on really. Because every week we have to be thinking about and talking about relationship stuff and the stuff that we're. That we're dealing with and we're addressing, you know, So I think that that, that makes an impact.

Nicole [00:25:20]: Yeah, no, you're right. I didn't even think about it like that. Yeah, that's true. Well, and we're holding ourselves accountable.

John [00:25:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:27]: You know, and. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You don't have to have a podcast in order to make your relationship, but

John [00:25:34]: you can make your own little podcast, like between the two of you, even if no one shares a meeting or. Yeah. Where you're talking about discussing the things so that it's on the mind. On the top of mind, you know, But. But I think you're right. And you got my point exactly, which is that people coming into arranged marriages already know that they're going to have to do work, whereas people that are just fall in love and get married, they just think that it's just supposed to just be like that or just be happy. Like it just. You shouldn't have to try. And it's like, no, it should be easy, but it's still work, like you said. But it's, you know, if you come in with that illusion, it's not gonna. It's just like, if you get a job, let's say you get a job in doing modeling. Right. Or in acting or whatever, and you're like, oh, this is wonderful. This would be great. I just stand around and people take my picture and I get Paid money, right? That's not what it is. That's not what it is. It is. It's a long freaking 12 hour day. It's like a lot of like, it's not just, yeah, you just get money for somebody to take your picture. It's. There's work involved in that. And so if you come in with that idea, you're going to be, it's going to, you're going to set yourself up for failure.

Nicole [00:26:45]: Right.

John [00:26:46]: Like, you got to know what you're getting into. Like, no matter how attractive it appears to be, there's going to be some difficulty and work. And at least the people, hopefully, that are getting into an arranged marriage already kind of know that.

Nicole [00:27:00]: Right.

John [00:27:01]: They're already coming in expecting, all right, I'm going to have to, like, I've never lived with this person. I've never really. I have hardly dated this person, if I've even seen them or dated them at all. It depends. Like, today modern arranged marriages are more like the family has a couple of different people and then you kind of meet them a little bit and help make the decision. That's typically how the more modern ones are. But hey, but still, like, it's not like you're getting to know this person at a deep level before you actually jump in and tie the knot. So you're kind of expecting that you're going to, you know, you're more well set up for what's about to, to take place.

Nicole [00:27:43]: No. Yeah, I agree. Well, and you got me thinking, like, you know people when they're in relationships and then it gets kind of rocky and they're like, let's have a kid, that'll fix it. You know what I mean? I think that again, that's another attempt, like a wrong attempt to lock back in.

John [00:28:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:03]: Because they're like, oh, well, we'll connect. We'll have, you know, we'll be raising a child together and like, we'll go back to like when we first met and we just clicked and everything was good.

John [00:28:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:12]: And then that never works. Right. Like, that never works because they're also viewing that as like, we just need to do this one thing and then it'll click back in. They're not like, no, this is gonna be even more work now. Like, they're not genuinely thinking that, like, they couldn't even handle the work to keep their marriage at a stable, like, level.

John [00:28:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:33]: Where they're deeply connected to each other. And then now they're adding a child on top of that, which is more work because when you're married and you have a kid or kids, you're not only doing the marriage work, you're doing the child work.

John [00:28:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:49]: You're doing the work of raising human beings on top of trying to maintain a deep and intimate connection with your partner.

John [00:28:55]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:57]: So please, anyone listening, if you're married.

John [00:29:00]: Yeah. That doesn't fix your problem.

Nicole [00:29:01]: Not doing well.

John [00:29:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:03]: Do not put a child band aid on it.

John [00:29:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:06]: Like, lock back in for the little Gen Z, Gen Alpha people, They're probably not watching this, but you got lock in back into your relationship.

John [00:29:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:18]: And start the work. Start building that foundation that's not based on chemistry and physical appearance and feelings. Build it on something that is unshakable. That doesn't change that even if your feelings are all over the place because you're going through something, that you're still gonna be there for your partner and your family because it's built on more than just how you feel in the moment. It's built on you guys connecting on such a deep level that you know that even if you're feeling off, your partner's got your back or they're. They're gonna help you, or they'll pick up the load until you're feeling better. Whatever is needed when you have that connection. All those things that are fleeting or like you said, if, God forbid, something happened to you, like, it doesn't matter what you look like. It doesn't matter what you look like at all. It doesn't matter about any of that. Like, I will still always want to be with you. Because it's not built on your. You being a tall, buff, hot man.

John [00:30:22]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:24]: It's built on who you are and our relationship. And so, again, like, I feel like people are probably, like, thinking, oh, it's. We're not that superficial. But you do have to kind of dig deep down and be like, okay, like, maybe you're not superficial in the way I just mentioned, but your relationship can still be superficial if you don't have that deep intimacy and connection.

John [00:30:48]: Well, look at it like, I mean, we're gonna try to do some episodes on celebrity breakups because there's so many of them are divorces. Right. And it's like celebrities split up all the time.

Nicole [00:30:59]: Right.

John [00:30:59]: They're good looking. They have money.

Nicole [00:31:02]: Right.

John [00:31:03]: So it's. What's going on there. Yeah. So what's going on? It can't be that. Those are the things that are important. Obviously. You see what I'm saying? Like, there's something else that that's going on. And it's not just compatibility personalities, right? It's not doing the work in building that. That depth. And that's. That's the thing, because that will. It'll get you. It doesn't matter how good the things start. Right. You have to know. And I think, like, maybe that even helps you with the selection criteria of deciding who to get married to and when to get married to. It's not really a matter of, like, the physical appearance. It's not really a matter of even the compatibility so much. It's a matter of is this person willing to do the work with me?

Nicole [00:31:42]: Right.

John [00:31:43]: Because you don't really know this person yet. Not really. Like, yeah, spend some time, you know, and date and whatever and get as close to possible. But what you should really be looking for is will this person grow with me? Will they. Will they do the work that we know that's coming? And I think if you come in with that mindset and that's your filter, then you're going to get there because, you know, because one person can't do it by themselves either. If they're going to give. If they're not ready to pick up the shovel and do the work, then that's what's going to be the downfall. Because even though it might not feel like work right now at first, eventually you're going to get to the point where you're going to have to really start digging because you're going to have. In order to get to that depth of intimacy, it requires that. And so, like, a lot of stuff that you don't know about the person, you're going to find out and you're going to have to deal with and that you don't know about yourself, you know, you're going to discover. And if you're willing to work through that and figure the things out and grow together, then you're going to be able to build that depth. But it's not a matter of who you started with as much, even though that's what people like to think that it is. It's like finding the right person. It's not finding the right person so much as it is being willing to

Nicole [00:33:07]: do the work well. And I think at times it's a way to blame. Right.

John [00:33:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:12]: Blame someone else for the work you didn't do.

John [00:33:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:16]: For the work you didn't put in for, like, the way you didn't show up, like, by being like, oh, we just weren't compatible. It's an easy way out to, like, Blame someone else.

John [00:33:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:26]: But like you said, when you look at arranged marriages, it's like they didn't choose. And even if they did choose, they chose from a very limited selection with very limited knowledge about this person.

John [00:33:38]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:39]: And so, you know, and I'm not saying that sometimes there aren't things that go on in a relationship that is a result of how someone acted, but if you're really honest, normally it's both people's actions and it's both people not doing the work or not showing up properly. So, again, I think a lot of the, like, oh, I fell out of love, or it just didn't work out is blame. It's blaming. It's trying to put the blame on someone else for the work that you didn't do, for not showing up the way that you could have.

John [00:34:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:15]: Because I think that, you know, if you do put in the work, but for some reason, it doesn't work out because the other person's not putting in the work. Because it does take two people. Again, it takes two people. I still don't think that you would be more in a blaming space of, like, oh, it was all their fault. You know what I mean? Because you would have that fulfillment of, well, I did all that I can do.

John [00:34:38]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:34:39]: And so you would probably be a little bit more disappointed because you wanted it to work and you were waiting for that person to show up. Like, you were showing up, and it would be coming more from that place. You know what I mean? But I think a lot of times, like you said, we're so quick to, like, throw people away.

John [00:34:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:58]: Because it is shallow. Because it's a straw house on the shore and the wind blew it away. It's easy to be like, oh, yeah, well, it didn't work out, you know, but it could have.

John [00:35:07]: But you didn't dig the basement. You didn't dig the deep foundation.

Nicole [00:35:11]: Yeah. That makes it so you didn't lay the bricks down.

John [00:35:13]: Yeah. Yeah. And I think just as we see more and more people that were so in love fall apart and fall out of love, it just becomes more and more clear. Like, what's the thing that we have that's maintaining us that other people don't

Nicole [00:35:28]: have and everyone can have it. That's why we started this podcast.

John [00:35:32]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:35:33]: It's like, everyone can do this, right? Like, we don't sit here week after week to just talk about, like, try to act like we're better than everybody or like, that we have all the. The knowledge or answers. Like you said. This is actually holding us accountable. This is helping us figure out the answers in real time. Like, we come on here and talk about all the mistakes that we've made.

John [00:35:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:55]: But that's what we want to do so that people know that this is possible for everyone. And it is work. And if you don't want to work, you're not going to have a successful marriage with anybody.

John [00:36:07]: Right. And it also, I think it relieves a lot of pressure because you don't have to find that one special person. You know what I mean? It's like you just have to find someone and them be willing to do the work and you be willing to

Nicole [00:36:20]: do the work and they will be that special someone.

John [00:36:23]: Because, yeah, it's great. If you start off wildly attracted to each other and in love, great. On one hand, it's great. But you're still gonna at some day end up in the same exact place where two people who got arranged marriage and didn't know each other were at. Like, you're gonna end up in that same place at some point. If. If you don't do anything, right? And then you're going to have to then either divorce them or start actually doing the work, then your marriage really begins, right? Yeah. I mean, it's like, before it was just fantasy land, and now your marriage actually begins. And so now when you get to that point, what do you want to do? Are you going to freak out and be like, this is not how it's supposed to be. This is not how the fairy tale is supposed to go. Are you going to be like, oh, okay, now like, I need to do the work. But if you came into it that way and thinking about that, then you would have done that from the beginning. You're never going to hit that crisis situation.

Nicole [00:37:15]: Y.

John [00:37:16]: And that's why that's so.

Nicole [00:37:18]: Well, it's funny you say that because it makes me think that maybe that's the honeymoon phase and maybe that's why it ends. Like, the honeymoon phase is like, oh, it feels so easy. You don't really have to do a lot of work. And then it's over when you. When it's time to do the work, but you're not doing it. You're still like in the honeymoon phase of like, I don't have to do work. I'm on vacation. This is honeymoon vacation. And then you're like, oh, well, I didn't have to do anything. And it went pretty good then, so.

John [00:37:45]: But all that tartar was building up all that resentment because you weren't dealing with it because you weren't doing the work. And then one day you wake up and it's like, I don't. I don't know who this person is. I don't love this person. I don't like this person. Like I'm not attracted to this person. And then you want to change.

Nicole [00:38:02]: Right.

John [00:38:02]: You know, but it's like. Well, it was because it's not because some chemicals in your brain, like the honeymoon phase is over. Maybe there's truth to that from a chemical perspective, but the reason why it didn't sustain past that was because during that time you were just riding on that wave of hormones instead of doing the work while that's happening. Because you can have a nice soft landing and go through and then things pick up. Because I would say we're way more infatuated with each other, in love with each other, than now than we were when we first met. That it increases, it goes up and is better.

Nicole [00:38:41]: Well, no, I was going to say that because essentially what you said is 1,000% it, that I don't feel like we had a honeymoon phase. I feel like we live that because we've been doing the work from the beginning. And I wouldn't even call it. I wouldn't even say we're living in the honeymoon. I would say it's something deeper than that. I don't know what you would call it, but it's like it's more than that because like you said from the very beginning, we put in the work. And so there was never this like super high and then drop off. If anything, it's been high and then it's somehow getting higher. And we didn't even think that it could go higher than that. And I believe it'll continue to go higher. It'll continue to go to places that we didn't even know was possible because we continuously show up and do the work every single day.

John [00:39:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:31]: And each day it might look different. In each season of life it might look different, but there's always work being put in. Because I'm invested in this and in you, and you're invested in this and in me. And that's what we signed up for. And we knew that. And we knew that's what we wanted and what we wanted to do.

John [00:39:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:47]: And so we're making it work.

John [00:39:49]: And. And I think the thing is, maybe, maybe the good message for people, because not a lot of people are in an arrangement. I mean, maybe some people will probably attract a demographic of people that are in arranged Marriages. But a lot of people that aren't, whether you're in an arranged marriage or you're not in an arranged marriage, you. You can make it wonderful, right? Like, wherever you're at, if you're like, you guys fell in love and now you're. It's kind of just fizzled and you're just staying together, or you're in an arranged marriage and you're just. Maybe you've been in arranged marriage for 10 years and you've just, like, raise the kids and, like, you know, live separate lives, you know, whatever, and you just. You're not truly in love with each other. You can become that, right? That's the thing is, like, there is hope. Like, you can resurrect. Not even resurrect. You can create something that didn't even exist before, even if it's been 10 years, right. No matter what it is, like, you can. It's not like, oh, I picked the wrong person, or the love is over or whatever. It's like, no, wherever you're at right now, you can go and create that thing if you put in the effort to go to that level of depth, which it all comes down to. And that's the other thing I told my coaching client was it's all about really, just a level of vulnerability of really connecting with another person. Exactly. With another person. And that's what creates that level of depth. So if you're in that situation, maybe you've been married for 10 years and you never really loved each other or you thought you did, and now you're like, the reason why you're staying in the state is because you both have shut off and have stopped becoming vulnerable, or you never did. And so you never got there. And so if you can, I guess that's our cue. But if you can get that depth, you know, get that vulnerability, you will create that depth. And you can be more in love than you've ever been or that you ever thought was possible and more in love than people that didn't have arranged marriages. If you're in arranged marriage, you know, or people that just newly got married. If you've been married for 20 years and you've lost a spark like, you can be. You can create that. It just. Most people don't think it's possible.

Nicole [00:42:00]: Right. And they kind of give up.

John [00:42:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:02]: Yeah. No, you're right. You can change your life at any time, and that includes your relationship.

John [00:42:07]: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, this one is a little bit shorter. I think we should. Should wrap it.

Nicole [00:42:13]: Yeah. I can't think of anything else to add. Like I said, I think you explained it really well, and I think that. I'm not saying it's just a man issue, but I do think it's important for men to hear, because I do feel like women tend to fight more for their relationships. And so if a woman feels like a man's fighting as well, then you can definitely get to where you're going. Like, when women will check out.

John [00:42:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:41]: You know, but you can also, I feel like, win a woman back as well, too. If you show up and, like, put in the work, she can potentially come back as well, too. So, again, I'm not saying it's all on men for this, but I think that men really need to hear this because they have a lot more influence in the relationship than they think that they do. And, you know, we've been hearing from people that we know too, that, like, women are the thermometer of the relationship, which is true.

John [00:43:05]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:06]: But if the man is blowing cold air and it's bringing the temperature way down, what can a woman really do?

John [00:43:14]: She needs to be alerting that that's happening. That's what she can do.

Nicole [00:43:18]: But what if he's still blowing air? It's like, it's cold, the AC's on, and he's still going. You know what I mean? Like, there is still only so much a woman can do to influence a man. And so that's why I think it's important for men to hear this, because, you know, it's harder for a woman to convince a man of these things, especially, like, in the relationship if he's not really receptive to it.

John [00:43:38]: The man has to lead the woman in this direction that we're saying.

Nicole [00:43:41]: Right?

John [00:43:42]: Saying, look, forget about the infatuation part. Like, don't have to say this specifically, but this is the thought process and leading in the way of saying, we're gonna build something way deeper than this. I'm gonna take you to this place. As opposed to just letting her. Whatever. Letting it just be whatever. Like, you have to actively, as a man, be like, okay, what are the things that I need to work on? What are the things that she needs to work on? How can we grow together? Like, what's the plan so that we can build this level of depth? How can I help her and assist her in the way that I can through my leadership to make her a better person for herself and for the relationship? And how can I do the same for myself and show, you know, it's like, you gotta be thinking like that as a man and leading in that direction.

Nicole [00:44:27]: Yeah.

John [00:44:27]: Because that's what you're supposed to be doing.

Nicole [00:44:29]: No, A thousand percent. It did sound like you said a woman and her sister, but you said a sister.

John [00:44:35]: Oh, yeah. A woman and her sister.

Nicole [00:44:37]: Yeah.

John [00:44:38]: You know, the sister wives that you're like.

Nicole [00:44:41]: Well, on that note, we can end on a light note.

John [00:44:44]: Yeah. Next time we'll talk about sister wives and I don't know about that.

Nicole [00:44:51]: And other forms of marriage.

John [00:44:53]: All right, well, that's it for this. This week. If you like the podcast, obviously, subscribe

Nicole [00:45:00]: to us and share it with your friends, family.

John [00:45:02]: Yeah. Share it with your arranged marriage partner. Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:07]: Friends.

John [00:45:07]: Yeah. Or. Or. Or people, you know, that are in a stale marriage.

Nicole [00:45:11]: Yeah.

John [00:45:11]: And. And think that's just how it is that you just become roommates. Because it doesn't have to be.

Nicole [00:45:16]: That's true.

John [00:45:17]: So. All right. And. And visit at the. The website betterthenperfectpod.com we'll see you next week.

Nicole [00:45:25]: We find our way.

John [00:00:00]: If there is someone that is on the more ugly side of life and everyone is like, body positivity, you're fine exactly how you are, and they're pumping up this false image, then that doesn't help the person. I'm not saying that to help them. You call them ugly. You cannot hype it one way or the other way. Both are faults. You cannot be like, okay, everybody has to look like an Instagram model. And you cannot be like, oh, if you're all the way over here, you're beautiful exactly how you are. That's not true either. Beyond the perfect we discovered through our flaws, us, we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:52]: Like the little. What would you call that?

John [00:00:56]: Stumble?

Nicole [00:00:57]: No, it seemed more like a, like, accent on those two words. You were, like, accentuating them.

John [00:01:04]: Accentuation? Yeah, you gotta try different things. So.

Nicole [00:01:08]: Yeah, you gotta emphasize the word emphasize. You emphasize, like, certain words to switch it up.

John [00:01:14]: So this week we're gonna talk about how fitness influencers ruin relationships. Just like the. The whole Instagram culture of a lot of. It's not just fitness influencers, but it's like looks, maxing, Photoshopping, film. Well, AI now, now they don't need Photoshop.

Nicole [00:01:32]: Well, some of it is AI, like, still obvious right now, but eventually it

John [00:01:38]: will be, well, just AI altering the photos. You don't even have to Photoshop. Anyone can just AI and slim the waist, do whatever and it'll look perfect.

Nicole [00:01:47]: And it doesn't give you like six fingers on your hand or something?

John [00:01:50]: No, no, no, I didn't even know that. Yeah, so, yeah, you don't. You can't even tell. You wouldn't even know that if pictures are real, things like that. But. But yeah, so the idea is really to talk about this and it's become. I mean, it used to be a problem that was mostly a female problem with body image and, and. And women, magazines, models. Right. All of this stuff. But it's become a man, a male problem, a young boy problem also now too, with all the. The fitness influencers and six pack abs

Nicole [00:02:22]: and the plastic surgery for guys. Now.

John [00:02:25]: Yeah, yeah, all of that stuff. So where. Where to start?

Nicole [00:02:30]: Well, I mean, maybe at the beginning, like you said. I think it started with magazines.

John [00:02:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:36]: And I mean, this was before anyone could get Photoshop, right? Like the editor of the magazine, the photo editors would edit the photos. Right. And then really the only time we saw those things is if you bought the magazine or, you know, because we didn't even have video editing. So like commercials, you didn't really see, like, them altering those things. They still might choose models that were like, skinny or whatever.

John [00:03:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:03]: But that's kind of how it started. And then of course, when like, Instagram came out, they didn't have, like the AI filters that started coming out on like, Snapchat and things like that. At first it was just the color filters, but then eventually it did become the filters. And then there started being apps on your phone where you can edit your images on your phone directly where you can, like, whiten your teeth or, you know, all those sort of things. And then, then it turned into the catfishing. Well, catfishing used to be you just stole somebody's photos and past it. But then it turned into, with all the editing software and things like that that everyone had access to. Right. It turned into editing your own pictures so you didn't look like yourself.

John [00:03:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:49]: Or putting a filter on that made you look different than you actually looked. And then I think that's genuinely where it started, at least for women, is that they started. We, like, we started using the filters.

John [00:04:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:03]: And then people, when they looked at the picture with the filter, they were like, dang, I like the way that looks way better. And like, these could, like, change your ey eye color.

John [00:04:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:11]: Like your skin tone, add freckles, like all this stuff. So it's like completely changing how you look.

John [00:04:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:18]: And then people see that and they're like, oh, that looks so much better. And it's not really something that you can realistically do. You can't go to, like the, you know, hair salon and have them be like, hey, can you, like, change my eyebrow shape completely? Where it's like up here now? Like, you don't have hair that grows up there. Like, you can't go to the eye doctor and be like, can I? I mean, you can. There's like crazy surgery. There's crazy surgery, but it's insane. But you can't realistically, like, someone, unless they have a bunch of money, can't realistically do these things. So. But now there are turning into things where people are trying to do some of these crazy things as well. But that's also because it. It's slowly gotten worse and worse, right?

John [00:05:01]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:01]: But I would say that I think that's where really the downfall of everyone's self image who uses social media came from. What for was the filters? Because I even had girlfriends where they would only use filters because they didn't like the way that they looked in a normal photo. And I was like, I, I understand.

John [00:05:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:23]: However, if you continue to just strictly use filters, you will never, ever, ever like the way that you look.

John [00:05:30]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:05:30]: Yeah. Like it's a guarantee. Like if you cannot take pictures without this.

John [00:05:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:37]: You will continue. It will get worse how you feel about yourself.

John [00:05:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:42]: And I would like to say that some of the, more like natural stuff's coming back. Like you do see some people that like don't use filters and all this stuff. But at the same time, like I said too, it's kind of getting more extreme as well.

John [00:05:56]: Right. And, well, and also if you, if you're like, I don't, I'm not using filters, I'm just showing you all of my flaws. But then you had, you have a badonkadonk because you got a bbl, then it's not really okay. So you don't have makeup on or whatever, you don't have a filter on, but you got an unrealistic curve to your body and that's what people are paying attention to. So it's like, you know, it's all still a game. It's all still trying to make you insecure so that you consume the content so you buy the product. That's what the game is.

Nicole [00:06:31]: Yeah.

John [00:06:32]: And the best way I can explain this, I would say is that. Because what happens is that it becomes the norm when you see all these images, Right. So I remember when I was a kid and before all this stuff happened, right. Because I'm 45 and when I first saw magazine picture. Well, first of all, the magazine covers of the fitness, the male fitness magazines, the dude was not, he didn't, he, he was not. He didn't even look like me. He just had like some, like his arms are a little bit big, is like, you know, he had his shirt off. He was, he didn't have six pack abs. He had, you know, he had some separation in his abs. And you're like, oh my God, he looks so good. Right? But I remember when the first time I saw a bodybuilder and I was, my jaw dropped. I was like, that doesn't even look human. I'm like, how is that even possible? Okay. It was a shocking. I'm like, that is, it doesn't even look human at all. I mean, look at the veins right now I see a bodybuilder and I'm like, ah, yeah, he's, he's kind of small. It's like, you know, you went from this doesn't look human, right? To oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's better. He could. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's not, not that lean or whatever, you know, sorry, not that big. And so that's, that's what's happened. Like, like, you know, our perception, because before Instagram, before we're seeing all of these altered photos and, and all these crazy surgeries and influencers and things like that. If, if a, if a dude was at like 15 body fat, if he doesn't even have like abs, but can, you know, has a, some, you can kind of see, you're like, oh man, this dude is jacked. He's ripped. But now it's like, no, that's not the standard. And the same thing with women before. It's like, okay, the beauty standard has altered because you see all these images and it works. And that's why it hurts a relationship, is because if you are now this is kind of the level that you're viewing because you're seeing more images of people at this level, then you are likely to fall into the trap of judging your partner, right? Like, why don't I have someone that looks like this?

Nicole [00:08:45]: You become more hypercritical, right? Because, like, listening to what you just said, I think about like 90s and 80s movies, right? Everybody looked different right now everybody looks the same.

John [00:08:57]: Yeah, they're all, yeah, everybody looks the same.

Nicole [00:09:00]: Like, and if we keep going this way, we're all going to look very similar to the point of, like, we are going to be so critical because we look so, so similar, right? That like, you're going to be like, oh, well, your teeth shade is.002 whiteness. And I'm looking for.001. You know, like, like that sounds ridiculous, but if you really think about how far we've come already, we're, we're heading that way. We're doing it now. Like you said, like, you know, people are expecting their partner to have fitness level bodies when, if you talk to people in the fitness industry, right, Some of those fitness influence influencers are coming in, not working out, but taking videos and then going to get plastic surgery or going to like, do something else, go get liposuction or whatever to look the way that they do. Not all of them. I don't want to say all of

John [00:09:55]: them, but, but a lot, a lot more than you would think.

Nicole [00:09:58]: A lot of people are faking it, right? In a lot of ways.

John [00:10:00]: Yeah. And it can be, it can be that you're getting surgeries. It can be, it could be the lighting. I mean, lighting is huge, right? Like you can see in our bathroom. I love our bathroom when it's dark, the light, because I can stand in the mirror and step back a few feet and oh, well, all the abs pop out, everything, you know, that's my favorite place to flex. But because the lighting matters, if I stand really close to the mirror right in front of the light, you can't see all of that deficit.

Nicole [00:10:27]: Still have abs?

John [00:10:27]: Oh, yeah. But, you know, but, but even, like, even, even someone like me, right? I mean, how much time do I,

Nicole [00:10:33]: you know, spend flexing in front of the mirror?

John [00:10:36]: Well, working out, like running and lifting and my nutrition, eating protein and, and you know, like, I have a really good physique, but I still don't have like the level of some, some fitness influencer physiques because it's, it's to a very large degree unattainable without. I mean, there's some. You can, you can go and do surgeries and you can have a lot of unnatural substances that you can inject in order to help you achieve that. But the point is that it's like, what's reasonable. A lot of. Even if I were to take my physique, which is probably in the top 99% of men, I'm not trying to brag, but realistically it is, and I were to post online, there'll be a ton of guys that would be like, oh, you're fat, you have love handles. They would give me all of these things as like, oh, your waist to hip, your, your hip raiser, you have wide hips or whatever. They would give me a ton of negative feedback on that when it's like, do you realize this is a, like a 1% top? You know, so again, it's not to say, not to brag or anything. It's just to say that this is how crazy that the standards have become. And that's a serious problem because it's unrealistic that you're going to dedicate your whole life. I like to look good and to be fit and it's something that's just important to me. It's not really so much about the external validation everyone, but for me it's just like I'm going to run because I like doing those things and I like to like, you know, to, to build myself in personal development. But I put a lot of time and, and effort into it. Think about how it's unreasonable to expect your partner to dedicate their whole life to looking good.

Nicole [00:12:33]: Yeah.

John [00:12:34]: Otherwise they don't meet the level that you, you want. You know what I'm saying? And, and that's kind of where it is now, is that the standard has become something that is, is for most people and they're living a normal life unattainable. It's not just about being healthy and, and being fit and not being overweight. It's become to a level that's so unattainable for both men and women that we're, we're judging each other at such a high standard that, and that's also, you know, we talk about this all the time about the, the dating epidemic. The, the, the, the lo. Male loneliness.

Nicole [00:13:03]: The epidemic. Yeah.

John [00:13:05]: Yeah, epidemic. Did what, Did I say something different?

Nicole [00:13:07]: No, no, it, I think it's just the official name is the male loneliness.

John [00:13:11]: Oh, yeah. The epidemic. Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:12]: Yeah.

John [00:13:12]: But why, why is, why is so, so many of the population sexless? Why are people not getting together and having sex and getting. It's because when, when you've got all these women judging their standards this high and you've got all these men that have their standard this high, no one meets anyone's standards.

Nicole [00:13:30]: Right.

John [00:13:31]: Only the top, you know, 10% of both find each other because no one else qualifies. And so that's a problem. That's why our population is dying and no one's having sex is because no one's worth having sex with. It's like it's not a high enough. They're not reaching the bar. Are the relationships not worth staying in? Because, well, they're not super Instagram model hot.

Nicole [00:13:52]: Right.

John [00:13:52]: So I mean, if they give me any kind of crap in the relationship, I'm just going to try and find someone else because they're not even that hot anyway. I saw some, some picture on Instagram and it's not worth, worth working for.

Nicole [00:14:03]: Right?

John [00:14:04]: That's what's happening.

Nicole [00:14:04]: Yeah. No, you're not wrong. And it's unfortunate because everybody's just beating up on everybody at this point. Right. Like, men have always criticized women, but now men are criticizing other men, like you said to even more extreme.

John [00:14:20]: Right?

Nicole [00:14:21]: And then women are criticizing men because they've also, you know, got expectations from all these buff people. But even I think women don't, because I do believe, I still firmly believe that women are less expecting of a man to have six pack abs and huge biceps or whatever. I'm not saying that they're not attracted to that, but I think that they, they aren't looking for that ideal as much as men are looking for that ideal.

John [00:14:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:52]: But I do believe that women attack men and how they look when they're attacked by the men. Right? So like, theirs is kind of. I'm not saying always, but I think that theirs is a more like defensive attack. It doesn't make it okay. But now men, like you said, if you posted it, women wouldn't be on there. Like, wow, look at. Like, no, you could work on this, John. You could. They would be like, you look good.

John [00:15:17]: Right?

Nicole [00:15:18]: But men would be on. Oh yeah, like, exactly. It's not even that great. Like, yeah, and that's what they do to women already. Like, how many times have we posted something in the past? And they'd be like, that girl's a five. And it's like, sure, I don't, I, you can call me a five. But it's like, why did you take time out of your day to comment on a man's profile that his wife is a five?

John [00:15:37]: Right? Well, yeah, well, and, and it's like, and it's just, it's ridiculous because you're a 10. But, but you, like, you don't take it. I mean, when you have a woman that's obviously good looking, you don't be like five. Like, well, it doesn't make any sense about that.

Nicole [00:15:52]: But I know, but it's about how, like, I know now men.

John [00:15:55]: But I'm defending.

Nicole [00:15:56]: You are like, well, I appreciate that. I do appreciate that and appreciate you calling me a 10. But like, I'm just saying that men have always kind of like thrown in those snide remarks. But, and really it's to bring other men down like, because they don't feel good about themselves. Because that's why too, when women post something and a man's in the comments like, you're five on her own stuff, right? She'll like pull up his picture and be like, you're calling me a five. Like, again, it's kind of like a more like defensive. It's a sort of thing.

John [00:16:27]: Quid pro quid, Right?

Nicole [00:16:29]: Yeah, yeah. So it's like. But essentially men are doing the same thing to other men to try to like boost themselves up by bringing someone that's above them down.

John [00:16:38]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:16:39]: Right. And it's like, because they feel like the pressure that they have to look the best, but they know they don't. So they're going to try to make themselves feel better, right? By tearing down someone that looks better than them. By like pointing out all Their flaws. Right.

John [00:16:55]: Yeah. And you're right in the sense that men judge women more harshly. Right. Women judge themselves and, and you know, to a degree, you know, judge other women. But don't say it necessarily. But. But they don't judge men as harshly. But men self remove themselves from the dating pool.

Nicole [00:17:13]: Yeah.

John [00:17:14]: Because they're like, oh, she'll never like me. Exactly.

Nicole [00:17:17]: I don't have big buff arms and I'm not a chad and I'm not six foot.

John [00:17:21]: They think they're ugly, so they remove themselves from even the. Because they lose their confidence. Right. Whereas it's not women that are causing that for men, it's men causing it for men. And you know, so, so it is a bit of a different dynamic which is kind of like the whole thing that if this whole looks maxing thing has become. Because we used to talk about back in the day and beat those guys, the, the black pill guys, you know, which was I thought was the most most destructive philosophy and I still do. And that was the thing was the black pill guys that were all gloom and doom. They were. I don't look enough women only like chads and all this stuff. But now it's really moved more to looks maxing where you need to explain

Nicole [00:18:05]: that because like I know men listening probably know, but I don't think women know.

John [00:18:09]: Yeah. So look, smacking is this idea that you can do everything that you can to become a quote, Chad or Stacy or whatever. Like everything you can to improve your looks. Because that's the most important thing. Right. And so there's a guy that was really getting popular, but I think after he ran someone over Miami and now I think he's not showing up on the feeds as much. I haven't seen as much of him, but clavicular. He's this 19, 20, 21 year old somewhere around there kid who started taking steroids at 14 years old meth in order to lose weight and to focus and all kinds of stuff. Like a different kind of meth. Like a doctor prescribed meth kind of. But regardless, like the problem was that he, he really was blowing up this whole looks maxing thing. It's been, it's been very widely circulated in the young, young male demographic. Right. So this idea of like, all right, here's all the very carefully studying your face to see what your gold nattle tilt is. Like how if your eyes are tilted down, are tilted up. Right. What is your face ratio? You know what your jawline. Yeah. What do they call it? The go go naddle length Right.

Nicole [00:19:33]: Go naddle.

John [00:19:34]: Right. So like, how long is your, your jaw and the separation and then, you know, your max maxilla. Like, so they're doing. For projection. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, it's golden ratio stuff. But, and, and there's, there's truth to these calculations. That's the problem with it is that, yeah, these are things that plastic surgeons would look at and, and optimize these, these, these things. But young boys are getting obsessed with this idea. And then when they're comparing themselves and they're putting their, you know, their face online or whatever, and then some other boy is rating them and giving them all of these ratings on the different aspects of the ratios of their face, they're like, oh my God, I might as well just not live on this planet. Like, I'm hopeless. My only hope is to like, get surgeries or take steroids or whatever it is in order to, to achieve this look. And so they're even doing things like what they call bone smashing, where they're taking like a hammer and hitting their, their face here in order to cause this bone to grow. To grow. Right? Because when you damage a bone, it tends to create a calcium deposit in order to, to build it up. And, and so in order to like to build up these high cheekbones and things like that. It's insane. Levels, right? Same length limiting leg limb lengthening surgery, right. To gain a couple inches of height. You know, they can't afford jaw surgery. Hey, you can, anyone can get a loan for, you know, whatever, $20,000 and get, and get your jaw surgery or whatever it is. So, so there, there's, there's a lot of stuff that is just, is being in a lot of the stuff. The problem also is a lot of this stuff, it doesn't even work. Yeah, right. So they're selling stuff like, not, I

Nicole [00:21:26]: mean, don't care about that. Not like women are not looking at you and you're like, yeah, the maxilla go nattle angle here is a little off. Never mind, Jeffrey, I don't want to go on a date with you.

John [00:21:38]: But there is a truth to the, like, if you, if you're a man that has striking features and, you know, a top notch physique, you're going to get more attention from women. Of course. So there's truth to that. But that's not. They're making that the most important thing in their life, right? And not realizing that, like, look, a woman can look at you and be like, oh, that guy's hot. But then she meets you and you Say something.

Nicole [00:22:03]: And she's like, never mind.

John [00:22:04]: It's not going to matter. And you're not getting in a relationship with her. And she, you know, and so it's. In the long run, that doesn't really matter. And those things are gonna fade over time for sure, you know, so it's like, there's such a focus on this, but it's become a real danger for young men, this whole looks maxing thing. And like I said, this clavicular guy that they're obsessed with this content. And the problem is if you go and you look at looksmaxing content on your feed, it's gonna send you a ton of that stuff. And you're gonna see all these guys that look like male models that show their before and after transformations. They' six, they went from 16 to 20 and they're like, this is how I did it. And I chewed this gum and I did this.

Nicole [00:22:48]: These exercises, like, 16 to 20, especially. Guys are still maturing.

John [00:22:53]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:22:53]: I mean, in a weird way, I think it. A lot of the looks maxing things is worse for men. Like, I think it's horrible because I feel like as women, even though, yes, like, women will judge other women as well too, but women will also uplift other women and they will hype up other women and they will support other women. Men are not doing that. Like, I don't usually see a guy being like, no, bro, you look good, like, in the comments or something. Like, some people will. I'm not saying that doesn't happen at all.

John [00:23:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:26]: But I do feel like men are more critical with other men, like we've been talking about. And they don't really have that community of someone being like, no, bro, you look good. Like, they might have their close friends when you're like, oh, I'm going to the gym. And they'd be like, yeah, you look good. Like, your friends might not. But even guys don't go out of their way to be like, oh, you look hot, bro. Like women do. They'll be like, you look so good, you know, on, like, every picture. And, like, they're not lying. Like, they're supporting their friends. And we understand because we're constantly judged for our body, and we have constantly been judged for our body even longer than now. Men are dealing with it. And so we have developed this kind of support system with girls for other girls. But guys don't have that. And if anything, like you said, especially with the black pill stuff, men are getting more critical of other men. Like, men do not have that. Support from other men. And men are trying to brainwash the other men by being like, women only care about looks.

John [00:24:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:27]: Like, I feel like,

John [00:24:30]: I don't know,

Nicole [00:24:31]: maybe it's because I'm a woman, maybe it's because like, I'm spiritual. Maybe it's a mixture of all these things. But having seeing like a whole community of men, like the black pill or whatever, be like, looks are all that matters. Like, you obviously are lacking. I feel like anytime a man is like, looks all that matters. I'm like, you are so far lacking, like the human experience. If you think how we look is the most interesting thing about ourselves. Right. Like, yes, we have to be attracted to our partner.

John [00:24:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:59]: But there are plenty of people of plenty of examples, not just celebrities, because guys will say it's a status thing. And maybe it is. But there are plenty of normal, real life examples of beautiful women with not so conventionally attractive men.

John [00:25:15]: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:17]: And these guys totally ignore all those things. And so when I hear a guy be like, looks are all that matters. As a woman, I wouldn't touch that man with a ten foot pole because he has like, if he thinks the best thing about him is how he looks and that that's what people value

John [00:25:35]: him to be, like that. Yeah.

Nicole [00:25:36]: Then he will have no insight to what really makes a human valuable.

John [00:25:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:41]: And what really makes like people have a deep, meaningful connection. Because it is not looks.

John [00:25:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:47]: And like, yes, you can say that looks help you get in the door. Like, exactly like you said, like a attractive man or women will get attention. But that is not. That just gets you the attention.

John [00:25:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:59]: I don't know anybody that would date somebody except a man. No offense.

John [00:26:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:05]: Strictly for their looks.

John [00:26:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:06]: And not for anything else.

John [00:26:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:08]: I don't know anybody.

John [00:26:09]: Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Nicole [00:26:10]: And I don't even know a lot of men personally that would do that. A lot of men act like they would do that.

John [00:26:15]: Yeah. But they're not going to date. But, but sometimes it's just maybe they don't need to date. They just want to get laid. And you know, so, so there's, there's an aspect of that. But, but again, it still comes down to like that emphasis and it's a feminine trait for a man. He, he seems very feminine if he's very obsessed about his looks.

Nicole [00:26:31]: Yeah.

John [00:26:32]: Right. And plus, have you seen Phantom of the Opera or Beauty and the Beast? Right. I mean, grotesque.

Nicole [00:26:37]: Not even that. Like we're all going to get old.

John [00:26:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:40]: No matter how much plastic surgery you do even the, Even the celebrities that can afford it, that have gotten it, sure, they look good, but they still look like an older person. Not like as if they've aged naturally. They look like an older person trying to look young. It's like a different. It's. It's not like they look young. It's like a different genre that we have created.

John [00:27:01]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:27:02]: And I don't know, like, I was hoping that the further things got along, the more natural people would want to look. And again, I feel like women are going that way, but I don't think men are, like, with the, with the. No, it's more the killer thing. And like, the looks maxing, becoming even a thing, because that wasn't even a word not that long ago. Or maybe it was, but people weren't talking about it the way that they are now. And so it's just sad to see that. Like, I get that we're entering into an age of AI and like, these things are going to become more accessible to people. And I'm not even saying not to take care of yourself, but to completely alter the way that you look, to try to, like, appeal to the masses. I feel like even just saying that out loud should make you be like, why am I doing this? You know what I mean? Like, it's not for the right reasons. It's not taking care of yourself. It's not self care. It's not like going to get a haircut.

John [00:27:59]: No.

Nicole [00:27:59]: It's not like tweezing your eyebrows. It's not like maintenance things that we do well. It's extremes. Like getting limb lengthening surgery. Like, that is a traumatic experience.

John [00:28:11]: Yeah. Well, and a good example is, like, even, like, from my perspective, right. Like, I like to look good. I like to stick to my diet and run and go to the gym and lift. But a lot of, like, the pride in how I look, how I've built my physique, comes from the work that I put into it. I'm not trying to just get a shortcut to get there. I'm not saying that I won't, you know, use advantages to, to help me, but it's like, no matter what, I've put in a ton of hard work to get to, and that's what I am proud of. Like, I, I like that feeling. And that's where the value comes from. If I just had the thing because I got some surgery, right? It's. It's not as valuable. You know what I mean? That's, that's, that's the thing about It. And you know, like, just to see how messed up our brains are, you know, the default should be if. Without all of the, the stuff that we've seen, if just any, any man and any woman, you know, just who's not overweight, just like if we just. With no makeup, you should be naturally attracted to most people.

Nicole [00:29:12]: Right.

John [00:29:12]: Like that's like, yeah, okay, overweight and you know, but just normal level of fitness, normal level of body fat. I know that as a society we've gotten fat and, and that's excuse. But like the default wiring for the human brain, how we should be. Right. Is that you'd find a lot of people attractive. A lot of people could be compatible mates from metaphysical attractive, assuming that they're just a standard normal person, no makeup, no alterations, and they're in reasonably good physical shape, that you should have that attraction. The fact that we don't have that is, is. Is how polluted our brains have become.

Nicole [00:29:50]: Yeah.

John [00:29:51]: Which again, which. If you think that's not going to affect your relationship, it is. It is. If. If you are looking at things so superficially and judging yourself so superficially, you're going to judge other people superficially as well. It's really hard to escape that. And so that is going to make you not try as hard in the relationship. That's going to make you more picky on things that don't matter nearly as much in their relationship. And that's going to cause all kinds of problems and temptations. Right. And even it goes into the whole porn thing of seeing naked bodies and seeing these things that is desensitizing you to what you should. Because you should be able to look at your wife or your husband or your partner and be attracted to them. You should be able to see them naked and be aroused by that. And if that's not happening, it's because of all the stuff that you've put into your. Your brain that's making it where that's not a sufficient stimuli anymore. Right.

Nicole [00:30:52]: It has to be the extreme version that you see in a lot of that stuff.

John [00:30:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:56]: That gets you going. When it's supposed to be a normal human body.

John [00:31:01]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:31:02]: Completely modified with surgery body.

John [00:31:05]: Exactly. And that's what the big problem is, that it does cause problems in relationships. And especially when the comparison of people thinking that they can get better, they can do better, or even just they meet someone online and they're looking at their best Instagram photos and that's not the reality.

Nicole [00:31:26]: Right.

John [00:31:26]: You know, and maybe you start a relationship with that person and you're like, well, that's, that's not. Oh, yeah, of course they put their best photos on online. But it's because now your, your brain is so wired to be so expecting

Nicole [00:31:39]: that, Expecting that high level that no one can attain at all times.

John [00:31:43]: Right. And that's why it's better to shield yourself from this. So the best thing to do is like. And you know, obviously, like, I've unfollowed all, but, you know, for, for a long time when we first got together, unfollowed all. Any women that I was following that. And you know, what you should do in a relationship is you should not. You should unfollow, not look at the, the pictures, the fitness pictures or whatever, modeling pictures, whatever, of, of the opposite sex. Like, you shouldn't be doing that because that is going to cause you problems in your relationship. You can be like, okay, well, I'm not messaging them. I liking their photos. Yeah, but the fact that you're seeing that stuff is going to cause some amount of dissatisfaction over time.

Nicole [00:32:29]: Yeah. No, you're not wrong. Yeah, it's. I mean, I feel like people get mad when you try to promote people, like, loving themselves the way that they are, because people will be like, oh, well, whatever people want to do with their bodies. Which, like, that is true. I can't control what you do.

John [00:32:53]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:54]: Like, so that is true. However, there are plenty of people that have had plenty of plastic surgeries who have stated that they still don't feel happy with themselves. Right. And I guess that's my thing is like, I hate the promoting on both sides of plastic surgery and like, altering yourself to that level when that's not going to make you feel better. And like, same with like, sure, like, if these guys are getting these crazy surgeries, women might come up to you, but if you're not an attractive person on the inside right now, you're just gonna be attractive. And now no one wants you. And would you rather be unattractive and no one wants you and have something to blame on it.

John [00:33:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:40]: Or attractive? And your whole thing was that it's all about looks and still no one wants you. You know what I mean? Or they, they really want you. You feel like they don't really know you.

John [00:33:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:50]: Because even if you derive your sense of self from your looks, you're gonna lose that, like I said, eventually.

John [00:33:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:57]: And if you feel like someone's staying around for looks only.

John [00:34:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:02]: You are not going to have any sort of security in your life.

John [00:34:05]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:34:05]: Because again, if you get Old.

John [00:34:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:07]: And you get plastic surgery when you get old, you still look old.

John [00:34:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:11]: Just like you're trying to look young. Like any older person I see with plastic surgery, even if they look good, you know how old they are.

John [00:34:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:19]: And they don't look 20 again.

John [00:34:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:21]: They just look like they're 60 with a tight face.

John [00:34:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:27]: So, like, again, I'm not trying to be mean and I'm not even trying to be critical.

John [00:34:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:32]: I'm just trying to say that we need to stop being so critical. Because you see people like Pam Anderson, Right. She's. She's letting herself age naturally and she doesn't wear makeup in anymore.

John [00:34:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:45]: And like Sarah Jessica Parker, again, aging naturally, like not doing any of the plastic surgery or whatever. And people, like, hate on them so hard.

John [00:34:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:56]: But they are the most impressive to me because as a woman, granted, the men are probably like, they look old.

John [00:35:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:04]: But they are. They obviously know what the real meaning behind this life is. And it's not looking Pamela Anderson. Do you know how many people had her on their wall when she was younger? And she's choosing. Choosing to age this way.

John [00:35:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:21]: She has a ton of money. She could go and try to look like she was at 20 years old if she wanted to, but she realizes that that's not what is important in life. And it's sad to see all these guys that are brainwashing these younger men.

John [00:35:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:37]: Into thinking that that's everything.

John [00:35:40]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:35:41]: Because the sad thing is, is I hope more women end up like Pam Anderson, but they will not have men to be with if these men are so focused on looks. Not only women's looks, but their own.

John [00:35:54]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:54]: That, like you said, they're taking themselves out of the game. When a woman like that just wants a good man, a good man inside, she doesn't really care what he looks like.

John [00:36:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:03]: Like, again, I'm not trying to say that people aren't attracted to other people and then that doesn't play some sort of role.

John [00:36:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:11]: But I feel like when you mature and you really try to understand this human experience.

John [00:36:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:18]: You should get to a point where you realize that how you look is the least interesting thing about somebody as a person.

John [00:36:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:25]: Honestly.

John [00:36:25]: And. And there's. There's a balance between the two because it's like, there's also like the whole boss body positivity movement where it's like, look, you don't want to be on too far on either side. You don't want to be hypercritical of everything, but Also, you don't want to be like, when someone's clearly overweight and they don't look good, be like, oh, yeah, no, you look great. It's like, no, like there's, there's like a, there's a middle ground where it's like, there's some honesty, but it's not hypercritical. You know what I'm saying is because it doesn't help people to, to encourage them that, oh, you can just eat whatever you want and look like whatever, and that's. And it doesn't matter. You're just beautiful however you are. That's not true either. Right, but it's also not true that you have to look like an Instagram model. Like there's like a line in the middle which is, is, is where we need to be. I mean, in order to.

Nicole [00:37:16]: People are beautiful the way that they are. I think they're not healthy.

John [00:37:19]: Well, no, they're not, they're not beautiful the way that they are though, because, like, externally they're not. Like, if you're, if you're grossly overweight, you're not going to be looking good. It doesn't matter what you think about. You can still have a positive self image about yourself as a person, but if you don't recognize those things, then you're not going to change those things. And yeah, there is the health.

Nicole [00:37:39]: Is that traditionally beautiful? Is that what you're saying?

John [00:37:43]: Just beautiful at all? Like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you think. It matters what, what the people that you're attracted to that you're trying to attract think that's what it is. Right? Like that's, that's what matters. It doesn't matter what value you place on your looks. Right. You know, if you rate yourself as a 10 when you're a 4, like,

Nicole [00:38:03]: it doesn't matter that you, that's how you're viewing it. Like, because if I see somebody that yes. Is like, not healthy as a woman, that's another woman. Like, I can think that they're beautiful, but I'm not attracted to them. Like, I'm not like their target demographic. Like, I think they're beautiful in their own way. I think that. Well, yeah, but that's healthy.

John [00:38:25]: Yeah, but that's. It's not really true though. They're not, they're not beautiful in their own way. They don't. There's people that don't look good. Right? Like, can we be honest and say that that's true?

Nicole [00:38:36]: I mean, I don't Know, I think that looks are subjective.

John [00:38:39]: No, no, but it's not. There's people that don't look good. Right? Like just period, like we have to be totally honest in order to. Otherwise everything that, that we're saying is worthless if we can't be totally honest. Right. Again, it's not, I'm not judging a specific person, but we can objectively say that there's people that are below average looking. Objectively.

Nicole [00:39:00]: Okay, I wouldn't say that. Okay. I like, not conventionally attractive, but no,

John [00:39:06]: the truth is that they're below average looking. They're not good looking. Like there are people that fall into that category. I mean, that is true. You can't deny that because you can't say that there's people that are good looking if you can't say there's people that are ugly. There are people that are ugly. That is true. Right now. Can some of those things be fixed? Yes. Can some of those things not be fixed? True. Okay, but you see, what I'm saying is you can't get rid of the hyper fixation on the artificial inflation of what people should look like unless you can be honest and say that there are people that are ugly.

Nicole [00:39:37]: I feel like that's why this has gotten so bad.

John [00:39:41]: The. It's what's got so bad.

Nicole [00:39:43]: People who feel like they're ugly and people say that they're ugly that are trying to fix it.

John [00:39:48]: But there's. But the thing is, is that what you have is you have people that are normal that are being told that they're ugly or that are feeling like they're ugly and they're feeling they have to be all the way up here. But you're having other. On the other extreme people who are over here who are ugly being told, oh, you're beautiful as you are, and they don't believe anything either. And there's no way that they're going to when they get to here. They're going to believe that they're still here because people are telling them bullshit. That's not true. Right. So the real thing is to be honest. What is the honest truth is that, okay, not everyone has to be Instagram fitness model, supermodel, okay? You can be somewhere in the spectrum and still be a good looking person and still have a successful relationship and have people be attracted to you. Right? And the other part of the reality is that if you are far over here, you need to understand that, yeah, you have. Maybe it's because of your weight or maybe it's just because of Genetics or something. That's messed up. And maybe there's some things that you can do to move more towards that middle. Or maybe you have to accept those things and move on with those things. But the truth is always going to be beneficial.

Nicole [00:41:05]: I would never tell someone that they're ugly.

John [00:41:07]: There's no need to tell someone that. There's no need to tell someone that.

Nicole [00:41:10]: But you want me to tell you that I think people are ugly, but I don't. I would never call somebody ugly. I would say that I'm not attracted to them, right? But I would never call somebody ugly. Even in my mind, I have never thought that person is ugly. I've thought, I'm not attracted to that person.

John [00:41:26]: There's no need to call someone ugly. There's no need to call.

Nicole [00:41:29]: Then how do they know that they're ugly? You're, like, making it seem like I have to say that someone's ugly for you to, like, prove that that's reality.

John [00:41:37]: They know that by. By not hyper. Inflating the opposite viewpoint. If there is someone that is on the more ugly side of life, which there are, right? And everyone's like, body positivity. You're fine exactly how you are. And they're. They're. They're pumping up this false image, then that doesn't help the person. I'm not saying that to help them. You call them ugly. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that you cannot hype it one way or the other way because both are false. You cannot be like, okay, everybody has to look like an Instagram model. And you cannot be like, oh, if you're all the way over here, you're beautiful exactly how you are. Like, that's not true either. And the reason why that's so important is because if I feel like you're lying to me, just like we talked about the coach analogy, right? If I'm a coach and you hire me to coach you, and you're like, I want to get in shape. I want you to help me work out, make me do these workouts, and then you come up to me and you're like, I don't feel like working out today. And I'm like, oh, okay, that's fine. Then you're actually good. Like, it's fine. It's not a big deal. You can work out tomorrow, right? That's not a good coach because it doesn't help me, right? If. If I'm going to be helped, I need to understand the truth, right?

Nicole [00:42:58]: The coaches telling you that because you're saying, don't call people that.

John [00:43:01]: You don't have to call someone ugly. But when you're saying don't promote it, don't promote that. Like, like an unrealistic body positivity in the negative. Don't promote an unrealistic body positivity in the positive. Right? Don't promote that. You have to be a chad, but don't also promote that if you are, you know, if you're not looking good, you're overweight and whatever, that you're just as beautiful as everyone else. Because that's not. Like, again, you don't need to go and tell someone that. But promoting either of those things is destructive because it, it erodes trust. This person over here, they know that they're over here, right? If you tell them false information and hype them up, they don't trust you. They don't trust anyone. Because then when they actually do, let's say that someone was grossly overweight and everyone's hyping them up and telling them that they're beautiful exactly how they are, and then they lose some weight and they get over here, and then people are like, oh, wow, you look so good. They don't believe it anymore. Because when I was over here, you told me that, like, it doesn't make any sense. You see what I'm saying? And then what's more likely that person is now they're going to go to the extreme and feel like they have to be over here because they're like, I still don't believe it. I still don't believe it. Nothing is going to make them believe it. That's why it's. It's negative to tell people false information. Right? Like, we have to have a realistic view, which is that most people are going to be average, and average is good enough.

Nicole [00:44:25]: I agree with you. I think, though, that just even talking about people's looks, I don't like that.

John [00:44:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:34]: Because that has nothing to do with me. Like, I don't. I don't view it in this way that you're talking about. Like, like I said, I view it as, like, you're attractive looking to me or you're not. And plenty of people that I don't find attractive. Other people I know find, attract, for sure.

John [00:44:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:50]: And so that's not. I feel like the way you're describing it just makes it seem like it's all of our responsibility. Whereas I feel like it's nowhere near my responsibility. Like, like how other people look is not My responsibility, because I'm not on, like, the, the amount of, like caring about people's looks is that if my friend posts a cute picture, I'm gonna be like, you look cute.

John [00:45:14]: Right? Exactly.

Nicole [00:45:15]: I'm not on anyone's posts like that. I don't know, like some fitness influencer and being like, wow, nice bod. And I'm also not on, like, someone else, I don't know, being like, you look amazing when, like, they're talking about that they don't feel the best. You know what I mean? Like, I think.

John [00:45:34]: Look, let me put it this way. There's two types of destructive content, right? There's looks, maxing content, black pill type of content that's all the way over here. And there's super body positivity content that's all the way over here. Both of them are destructive. You see what I'm saying? Because both of them are creating a false narrative. They're not true. They're creating unrealistic expectations in one direction or the other direction. Because, look, objectively a guy. Let's take a guy, let's not even judge a woman. Let's take a guy that most people would rate as a one. Okay? Again, you're going to have to be really, really, you know, have a lot of probably deformities and stuff to be a one. But there's, there's people that would fall into that category or severely overweight, right? If that guy has an unrealistic expectation and does not realize the reality of his situation, he's going to live life the wrong way.

Nicole [00:46:24]: But if he has deformities, that's not anything he can change.

John [00:46:28]: But it's still reality. It's still reality and you still have to recognize the reality for, like, not

Nicole [00:46:33]: encourage somebody because they were, of course.

John [00:46:37]: But they still need to understand reality. That's, that's.

Nicole [00:46:40]: So how am I supposed to do that?

John [00:46:42]: I guess by not creating content that is extreme body positivity, telling people lies.

Nicole [00:46:49]: So it's not about me, it's about them. Like, they need to stop creating the

John [00:46:53]: content, whoever creates the content. That's what I'm saying. It's like people need to not create content that is extreme on this end or extreme on that end.

Nicole [00:47:02]: Okay, so you're putting it on the people. Because the way you described it before, you're putting it on like me or someone else encouraging it. So that's why I'm confused.

John [00:47:13]: Encouraging, encouraging, negative body positivity comment content that's not accurate, right?

Nicole [00:47:20]: Okay, so a deformed guy posts this thing, I'm supposed to say nothing to him because he needs to know that he's ugly and people aren't going to pay attention to him.

John [00:47:27]: No, no, I'm saying not to promote content that gives a false information to people either in the positive or negative direction. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's like it's more of kind of what you're saying, which is not to focus on the looks because that's not the important thing. But a person needs to understand. Let's say that you had someone that was grossly overweight, right? And they could be over here and in the really good looking, you know, and, and, and they, but, but they're posting stuff and everyone's like cheering them on. They're like, oh, you look good exactly how you are. Like body positively. They're consuming all this content that is like it doesn't matter at all what you look like. It doesn't influence like you're beautiful exactly how you are. That's going to hurt them because I'm not saying they need looks maxing extreme content like you have to be a chad. But that content that they're consuming is hurting them because it's preventing them from having the, they're thinking that, that, that they're just going to walk through life just like everyone else when that's not the reality. And so if they understand the actual reality then they might make some changes in their life that they could improve.

Nicole [00:48:38]: And don't you think those people genuinely don't know that?

John [00:48:41]: It's, it's that like you do you think that. Okay, let me ask you this question. When guys see this looks maxing content and a guy, let's say that he's a decent looking guy, above average, good looking and he sees content where guys are like, oh, you have to have the gonadal tilt and your jawline and he puts his rating, his face rating online and in reality he's like an eight. To most women would say he's an eight. But then all these guys online tell him he's a four. You think he doesn't really know that he's an eight. He doesn't, he thinks he's a four. He's bullshitted by why?

Nicole [00:49:18]: Because he listens to guys.

John [00:49:19]: Because he listens to the content, the message, the society people that are saying this. When people are in the body positivity cult, it's the same as being in the looksmaxing cult. They're both destructive, they're both creating false Narratives, they're both brainwashing people in a direction that does not help them. That's what I'm saying. Because you have to have an objective view of reality in order to change reality and operate in that reality. Anything if you're blowing smoke up your ass or you're, you're, you know, or, or you're falsely like being harsh on yourself, either one of those is not optimal.

Nicole [00:49:52]: I guess my thing is like, as a woman, there's plenty of people that will give you compliments and you still don't believe them. And so I find it very hard to believe that you genuinely think that these people who are lower on the attractiveness level don't already know that they're attractive, don't already feel that, and you think that they're just going to instantly get confidence from people telling them you're beautiful. Yeah, because I don't think that's how it works.

John [00:50:17]: They're deceived. They're deceived. Just like I said. I just gave you the perfect example of a guy that's good looking and thinks that he's ugly.

Nicole [00:50:24]: Yeah, but that's because he's also insecure. That's what I'm saying. The people who you're talking about are on lower level of attractiveness. They have to have some insecurities as well. Like it's like, not like they're not there. And I don't think that a few positive comments are going to override that. Just like the guy who's an 8, if he's being told he's an 8, but then some random dudes tell him he's a 4. Like that, if he believes those dudes, right, rather than the other people that are probably closer to him that aren't strangers, then he's more insecure than anyone realizes.

John [00:51:01]: But you have to understand, these are cults. There's a looks maxing cult, There's a body positivity cult. They're cults because it's groupthink, because they're like, it's segmented social media algorithms send you the content that reinforces this idea. And then you think that everybody thinks this. You think that everybody objectively believes this about you and that this is the truth. When this is not the truth and this is not the truth. The actual truth is what sets you free.

Nicole [00:51:27]: That's what, which I feel like is stop caring about your looks to this level.

John [00:51:32]: To that level.

Nicole [00:51:33]: Exactly.

John [00:51:34]: Average is definitely good enough. You know what I'm saying? That's how it's supposed to be right? That's the reality of the situation. Like I said, without all this brainwashing, if you take normal man and normal women, they're going to be attracted to each other because most people are average, right? That's what average means.

Nicole [00:51:51]: Even like the average. Honestly, I'm not trying to be controversial. Yeah, but I think when you get rid of all this stuff, including average, right? Like if you don't have these, if you're not chasing these ideals, because I think that if you're chasing like someone that's perfect, plastic surgery wise, you're still in this matrix of looks, right? But I think the second you get out of it and you genuinely are just attracted to who you're attracted to and you stop trying to make sense of it, you stop trying to be like, oh, it's because, you know, I need a guy that's 6:3, has perfect abs and like, his teeth better be really white and he better have no nose hairs in his nose. Like, that's just, that's extreme. Like, and it's kind of ridiculous because also, like, you can come across somebody that you are attracted to that fits none of those things, right? But if you're so hooked on looks, you're not going to date that person because you're like, oh wait, well, he doesn't look like I'm attracted to him. And like, I would date him, but he doesn't look like what I said I wanted, so maybe I shouldn't, you know what? Like that, that's what I'm trying to say is that like all of it, like, I don't even like the word average because like, because then that's still putting people in this box when it should just be like, I'm attracted to her, I'm not attracted.

John [00:53:15]: But, but here's the reality of the situation, because I do agree with you, but the reality situation is you don't get to choose what the market demands, right? You don't get to choose, like, let's say that you open up a store, right? If you want to make money from the store, you can't just sell whatever you like in that store. You have to sell what the customer wants. And so the customer in this case when it comes to attraction is the opposite sex or same sex if you're, if you're gay or whatever, you know, lesbian. But, but the point is, is that whatever customer you're trying to attract, it doesn't, it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what they think. Now at the looks maxing side it's way ridiculous. Like you're, you're over, over assuming what the customer, the customer is not asking for, for this love for a frickin private yacht. That's, you know, they just want a boat. And you're like, I need a private yacht. But at the same time the customer, if they want a boat, they don't want like a raft with a hole in it. So you see, what I'm saying is like you, you do have to have some sense of this. You can't be like, oh, looks don't matter at all. Because they do. They do, obviously. Like, because you're not, you know, you're gonna have a lot less dating options if you're, if you're, if you're very unattractive. You don't care about how you look at all. Right? However, it's not to this extreme level. They're not asking for a yacht. And so that's why it is important. But it's not the only thing and it's not the most important. And that's why I said average is good enough. It's not, it's not meant to be a negative thing. It's just meant to be like all most people are looking for is a boat. Like, yeah, we've inflated now where because of social media and fitness influence and stuff that more people are like, I don't need the super yacht, but I want the, the, the baby. Yeah. And it's like so, yeah, so they're, you're being judged more harshly. And, and, and we have to understand that's the problem is that we need to bring things down back to the boat level. Okay. But it doesn try and like pretend like it's the, the raft with the holes in it level, you know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:55:13]: But I, I guess I just, I understand what you're saying. I guess I just feel like that's kind of implied like, because it sounds like you're just saying like you think it's take care of yourself. Which includes trying to be healthy and like hygiene.

John [00:55:27]: Right?

Nicole [00:55:27]: Like appropriate grooming that everybody has. That just seems like logical.

John [00:55:34]: There are situations where let's say someone has a really messed up, like genetically a hooked nose that just is huge and hooked or for a woman especially, right? Like for a guy having a bigger nose isn't as big, but like a severely deformed nose, getting plastic surgery probably might be the right choice for that person because it's going to greatly improve their life and greatly improve their looks and move them up to a Level where they're going to have a better life. But look, if you're an average looking guy getting a bunch of plastic surgery, or even an average looking woman to get a bunch of plastic surgery so you can try to be super yacht, that's not good and that's not healthy. You see what I'm saying? There are instances, like if you have a child and they have a cleft lip, right, you're not going to be like, oh, I'm not going to get them surgery to fix that thing. Right? You're going to be like, look, if I let them live their life with a cleft lip, they're still a good human being, but it's going to objectively make them less attractive, which is going to hurt their life. And so you do the kind thing and get the surgery done so that they can look more on the average, which is what I'm saying.

Nicole [00:56:35]: Which of those things are different? Like, but when you're like body positivity, I don't think of those things.

John [00:56:41]: Yeah, but, but it, it's related to those things because you could say the same thing with weight. If you have someone that's grossly overweight and they keep on getting the wrong message that it doesn't matter what you look like, it doesn't like you're beautiful no matter how much you weigh. That's not really true. Not in the system, not. Not in this, in the society where you are trying to sell a product and you need someone to buy that product. Like, you're not going to have anyone buying your product.

Nicole [00:57:06]: That's slightly untrue because there are definitely guys that are attracted to bigger women.

John [00:57:10]: There are, but I'm just saying that it greatly limits the cost to be

Nicole [00:57:14]: healthy, which is like, what I'm trying to say is like, I just thought that was like a given, that we should all be working towards being healthier and just grooming like we naturally would. Not these extreme things.

John [00:57:27]: It's like, it's like even, even, like you could take height for a guy, right? If a guy is five two, look, he's gonna have a hard time. It's true.

Nicole [00:57:36]: So he has to get his knees done.

John [00:57:37]: It doesn't mean that he has to get his knees done. I don't think, I think that kind of surgery is. But, but if people are pumping him up and being like short king, it doesn't matter at all. Women don't care about this. It doesn't matter. That's not true. That's not true. He just needs to be Prepared for life. It doesn't mean that needs to stop him. You know what I'm saying? But. But getting an unrealistic viewpoint is not healthy either.

Nicole [00:58:00]: But I guess, like, okay, to that example, like a guy that's five two.

John [00:58:05]: Right.

Nicole [00:58:05]: I wouldn't. Like. What I would say to that guy is that there are plenty of women under five feet, for sure.

John [00:58:10]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:58:11]: I would not say, like, oh, it's fine, whatever. Like, because that's not even. I would just be like, there's plenty of women that are shorter than you.

John [00:58:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:58:20]: So it's not like there are still options.

John [00:58:22]: Exactly. It's not.

Nicole [00:58:23]: So, like, I guess that's the thing is, I guess you're. I'm not connecting because even if I followed an influencer who I thought was beautiful and maybe she's on a weight loss journey or whatever, I would just be like, good job. Like, like on your. Working towards your goals.

John [00:58:38]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:58:38]: I wouldn't be like, right, like, it's fine. Don't do it. Like, go eat the ice cream, whatever.

John [00:58:45]: Other people do do that because they don't want to. They want to believe a false narrative so that they don't have to do the work. But I love the idea of being like, oh, that's great. Go after your goals. You're making great progress. That's awesome. Right? Not even comedy on the looks, but comedy on the work that they're putting in to improve themselves. I agree with that 100% because I

Nicole [00:59:04]: think we should be supportive. I don't think we should be calling people ugly or be like, yeah, you look horrible, or, like, not saying anything because we don't want to, like, promote that.

John [00:59:13]: Like, we just, like, don't want to be in either. Cole, you don't want to be extreme looks, maxing and extreme body positivity. Like, it has to be objective reality because people appreciate objective reality. That's what helps people the most. Again, if someone. If someone is paying me, like, for example, for coaching, I'm going to give them an honest assessment of where they're at, because that's what they need. If someone's not paying me, I'm not going to just volunteer my information and be like, oh, you could lose some weight, or whatever.

Nicole [00:59:42]: That's what a lot of men are doing.

John [00:59:43]: Yeah, I'm not going to. That's not healthy. That's not good. But if I had a coaching client that was paying me money and he's like, why can't I get women? And he's like, £400. I'm not going to be like, well, maybe you should get a haircut. Or like, it doesn't matter. I'm going to tell him the truth. I'm going to do it in a kind way because I care about him, I love him, I want him to succeed in life. But I'm going to be like, dude, you're 400 pounds, you're overweight. That's the biggest thing that's stopping you. Let's get you on a diet. Let's get you down. And you will have a lot better options. You can stay that way if you want to. But I'm just telling you that this is what is going to be more attractive if you want to have more options. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, that's all I'm saying is that we have these cults that are look smacking where it's so extreme. Everyone needs to be a super yacht. And we have other cults that are just like rafts with holes in it that. That's just as good as a super yacht.

Nicole [01:00:32]: Yeah.

John [01:00:32]: Those things are not true. Like we as a human, you know those things aren't true. But you can be, you can be cajoled into believing it if you subscribe to that cult because you listen to the thing that you want to hear. And so if, if guys are consuming this looks maxing content and they want to believe that women only are attracted to super. Yeah. Why do what you would be like? Well, why would, why would a man want to believe that? Well, because he hasn't had success with women, so he wants to blame it on something.

Nicole [01:00:57]: Right.

John [01:00:58]: And, and why would this person over here that has the raft in a hole in it want to believe that looks don't matter at all? And you can be £500 and it's not and no one's going to care and.

Nicole [01:01:05]: Because they want to believe it's not their fault.

John [01:01:07]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:01:08]: Yeah, I know.

John [01:01:08]: That's why the truth is important.

Nicole [01:01:10]: Everybody just needs to stop obsessing over looks. Like I said, like, it's gonna get to a point where we can all look the same.

John [01:01:19]: Right.

Nicole [01:01:20]: So it's not even. I don't think. Hopefully, I don't think people would do that. I think hopefully we'll go back to all looking like different people. Like unique versions of ourselves. Like we're brought into this world.

John [01:01:33]: Right.

Nicole [01:01:33]: Like. And again, I don't see anything wrong with. Like, if you wanted to get plastic surgery to fix a deformity, sure, that's different. But like this hyper Fixation on all of it is just exhausting because, again, it's the least interesting thing about somebody is how they look, because especially now, right? They don't even look that way.

John [01:01:58]: Exactly. Yeah. And. And it's like, look, when I'm standing in the mirror and flexing at night, right? It's like, I like to see what I'm seeing for myself, you know?

Nicole [01:02:08]: I mean, there's no question about it.

John [01:02:12]: Like, I'm obsessed.

Nicole [01:02:13]: I'm waiting for you to kiss the mirror.

John [01:02:14]: Exactly. But. But you see, I like it for myself.

Nicole [01:02:18]: I know not.

John [01:02:19]: Because, like, obviously I want to look good for you. Right. But I'm not like, oh, if I look so much better, she's gonna be so much more attracted to me. You know what I'm saying? Or, like, I need to have all these pictures on Instagram. Like, I don't even. Hardly even post at all anymore. You know? Like.

Nicole [01:02:33]: Like, no thirst traps.

John [01:02:35]: But. But. But the point is, is that, like, that's fine, but I'm not in the market. If I were in the market, then I would have to pay attention to what the market wants as well, right? For me, at this stage of my life, I don't need to worry about the market at all. I care about how I look because I like it. Because I like to see the progress. I like to see the abs. I like to admire myself. But you have to have a grounded reality, and that's what the whole thing is. The unrealistic beauty standards have created a society where we have. Have everyone thinking that they need the mini yacht. Yeah. Or. And some people think they need to be the super yacht. Otherwise, you know, and. And that's not good. And that's where things are moving more. I think the body positivity is not, as, you know, now, I think the look. You know what killed body positivity? Ozempic. Because. Because there were all these people that are like, oh, you look beautiful exactly how you are. Like, fat is beautiful or big is beautiful or whatever. Right? And then those same exact people, celebrities that were promoting the body positivity as soon as Ozempic came out and Tirzepatide and whatever they got on Ozempic and Mounjaro, right? And they lost all this weight, and they're like, look at me now. Look how good I look. And it's like, well, wait a minute. Like, a couple years ago, you were just like, body positivity.

Nicole [01:03:55]: That kind of proves my point exactly. What I said to you earlier is that you think that those people don't believe that they. They are still insecure. You just proved my point that the second they could take something to fix that problem, they did. No matter how many people told them that they were beautiful the way they are.

John [01:04:10]: Right. But they deceived other people. They deceived other people by saying that

Nicole [01:04:15]: they did it naturally to.

John [01:04:17]: By saying that it's fine. Oh, that you're just as beautiful. It doesn't matter. Yeah, but it does.

Nicole [01:04:22]: I mean, it still goes back to.

John [01:04:23]: It doesn't matter.

Nicole [01:04:24]: I still feel that way.

John [01:04:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:26]: It's not even really working.

John [01:04:27]: It's like. Like it's not that looks don't matter. They do, but they don't matter as much as this, and they don't matter as little as this.

Nicole [01:04:37]: They only matter that you're attracted to your partner.

John [01:04:39]: Right.

Nicole [01:04:39]: Period. That's the extent. Like, do you want to kiss them or do you have the ick?

John [01:04:43]: Right. Exactly.

Nicole [01:04:45]: Like, that's the only level. And I like, again, it's. People are attracted to way different types of people. Some people like the plastic surgery look. Some people don't. I mean, I think like you said, if we kind of went back to baseline, more people would be attracted to how we come out of the womb and develop into adulthood. Because a lot of the extremes have made it so people aren't as attracted to how we are naturally born to look.

John [01:05:15]: Right.

Nicole [01:05:16]: But, you know, that's ultimately like, you don't know what someone's going to be attracted to. So all that matters is who you're attracted to. Are they attracted to you back? Bing, bing, boom. That's all that matters. And I get, like, dating, right? And I get, like, putting your best foot forward, which for me means, again, being healthy.

John [01:05:35]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [01:05:36]: And having proper hygiene and taking care of yourself in that way. Yeah, that's normal to me. But if I go out, like, I'm. I'm. I might go, when I was single, on a date with somebody, if they're not attracted to me, that's not my problem.

John [01:05:48]: Well, but look, But.

Nicole [01:05:50]: But you're also feel like I need to go get plastic surgery. I don't feel you're going to change my eye color.

John [01:05:55]: Well, you're going to do something. You're not going to go out on a date and not wear any makeup.

Nicole [01:05:59]: I might if I feel good.

John [01:06:01]: Not really. Like, if you really like someone, if you're going to date with someone, you meet someone on a dating app or something, you're not going to go on a date and not wear any makeup. Like, you're going to try to look your best.

Nicole [01:06:10]: Like, but that doesn't always mean makeup.

John [01:06:12]: No.

Nicole [01:06:12]: But I think altering your appearance on this amount of makeup to come here. But even some of the podcasts we've been doing, I haven't been putting on as much makeup.

John [01:06:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:06:20]: Because I, like, went and got a lash perm. So they are. I don't have to put on makeup,

John [01:06:26]: but that's still an alteration in order to improve appearance. Because it does matter.

Nicole [01:06:30]: Like, that's what they're my lashes.

John [01:06:33]: Yeah, I agree.

Nicole [01:06:34]: They're real.

John [01:06:34]: Right. But. But it's not. It's. It's a healthy.

Nicole [01:06:38]: But I said you're going to put your best foot forward.

John [01:06:41]: Yeah. Putting on some makeup, but you're not

Nicole [01:06:43]: going to alter yourself to a point where you don't look like putting on

John [01:06:46]: some makeup, wearing a nice, you know, outfit, feel good in grooming your hair. Maybe even some things like, you know, piercings or like jewelry and things. Like, it's like, those are like, okay, level, like, normal level, fine. Right. It's the extreme stuff. It's the not caring at all. That's where, you know what I'm saying?

Nicole [01:07:08]: Makeup.

John [01:07:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:07:10]: I had an issue with. Because there's different levels of that. I would never put on makeup that makes me not look like or where I took it off. Someone would be like, what the hell? So I guess when you're like, you wouldn't show up with no makeup. Like, that does not look that different than when I have makeup.

John [01:07:27]: It's a natural enhancement. Right. Which is what it should be. It had a completely change.

Nicole [01:07:31]: Sometimes it is different. Like, I've never done makeup like that.

John [01:07:34]: Right.

Nicole [01:07:34]: But there are plenty of people that do a certain level of makeup where they look completely different when they take it off. So that's where I don't promote doing something where you're gonna alter yourself.

John [01:07:45]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:07:46]: Or like, I don't know, you put butt pads in to go on your date and you look like you got a vbl, but it's a butt pad. You know what I mean? Like, I don't promote those things. So, like, when you're saying, like, the makeup thing, I am pushing back because.

John [01:07:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:07:57]: I'm thinking you're saying, like, no, I'm altering myself. And no, I'm not saying that.

John [01:08:02]: I'm just saying that, like, obviously you care what you look like and you know that it does matter. Right. So.

Nicole [01:08:07]: Right.

John [01:08:07]: So a reasonable person is going to do things that are going to put them in the best light an Unreasonable person will do extreme things because they have to be the super yacht. And an unreasonable person will not care at all because they think people should just be attracted to me exactly the way I am.

Nicole [01:08:26]: I've just never seen someone show up to a date in like, that extreme level, I guess, like in the, like, totally didn't do anything at all.

John [01:08:34]: I mean, yeah, people aren't gonna do that. Right? Like, because, because people are aware of those things. That's what I'm saying is that it's, it's just important to have the reality, the truth of the situation, which I feel like.

Nicole [01:08:45]: Is that not logical? Like, is that not the norm?

John [01:08:49]: It's not. It's not. That's why, like, look, you've, you have witnessed it from the black pill guys and you know, you talked with them directly.

Nicole [01:08:55]: I know that they're extreme.

John [01:08:57]: The craziness. Right. You know what I'm saying? Look at how much they insulted my looks when, when we were on, on streams and stuff like that. So, so it, it, it's. That's, that's the whole problem. That's the whole problem is that it's not rational. It doesn't make sense. But our brains are wired in such a way as that what we see, we will believe that like enough images, enough of the message, enough of the social media algorithm feeding us the thing that we are predispositioned to believe spirals us down that cycle of believing it more and more and getting more solidified in extreme viewpoints. It happens politically. It happens with, with physical appearance. And so you've got to be on the straight and narrow, being not too much on this side, not too much on this side. And, and realizing that like, there is some truth to, to, to looks.

Nicole [01:09:48]: Be human.

John [01:09:49]: Yeah, yeah. But, but you can't be extreme either way. Right? And, and really what it comes down to is it's like, you know, ultimately you should look and say, well, what, what, what is important to me? Like, how do I want to show up? Yeah. How do I want to perceive myself? Like, you know, because if you look in the mirror and you're like, yeah, I don't like the way that I look, but it's like it's not because you've been influenced by.

Nicole [01:10:14]: Right.

John [01:10:14]: But, but it's like it's not your

Nicole [01:10:15]: best version of yourself that you know, you're capable of.

John [01:10:18]: That's exactly.

Nicole [01:10:18]: It's like, you know, you're capable of having control of this because you're not control of plastic surgery.

John [01:10:24]: Right.

Nicole [01:10:24]: And if you just let Yourself. Go. You're not taking control of yourself at all.

John [01:10:29]: Right.

Nicole [01:10:29]: Like, looking at yourself in that way. Yeah. You're analyzing, like, I could be more disciplined with my diet, and I'm not doing that. Or, you know, I haven't gotten a haircut in a while, and, you know, it'd make me feel better if it was cleaned up. That just seems logical to me. I get that.

John [01:10:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:10:46]: It's not logical to everybody, but I agree with you that, like, that sense is what people should be focusing on, not these extremes of, like, not caring at all. That is almost giving, like, depression. Like, you know, like, not caring. And then, like, oh, no, I need, like, the perfect nose for people to like me. Or I need, like, you know, bigger boobs, like, for men to pay attention to me. Like that. No. Like, it should be, what can I control? Because also, too, that, like, people on this side, men and women, now, you don't know if people like you for who you are or just, like, how you look. And that is a very lonely, sad feeling. That's why all these people, they're not really happy. Like this clavicle. Clavicular guy.

John [01:11:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:11:32]: He's probably not really happy. He's not really not happy now because he's probably in jail.

John [01:11:36]: Right.

Nicole [01:11:36]: But. And these people over here also aren't happy because they're not living up to their potential. They're not doing all that they can do to feel better about themselves.

John [01:11:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:11:44]: And that's why the middle, like you said, is the best place to be. Because when you come from that place, you're. You should not be coming from a place of. I'm doing all this. Like you said. You said this earlier. I'm doing. I'm not doing all this to. To look good for everybody. I'm doing all this to feel the best in myself, in my body, in me as a person.

John [01:12:05]: I've maximized my potential.

Nicole [01:12:06]: Right.

John [01:12:07]: That's because it's the same thing. Like, remember when I. When I got out of shape after my surgery and everything? And I'm like. I'm like, I. You know, I look fat. And you're like, no, no, you look great. It's like, okay, I get it. That you're like, that's good enough for you. Like, that doesn't.

Nicole [01:12:20]: But for me did not lose any attraction.

John [01:12:23]: No, I know. I know. But it's not for me. It's not good enough for me because I care about, like. Like, I know it's not my potential. I know that I'm not living up to where I told you that was fine.

Nicole [01:12:35]: Like, I understood that.

John [01:12:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:12:37]: But I didn't want you to think I was not attracted to you, which I appreciate.

John [01:12:41]: And that's. And that's. And that's true. But it's like. But that's the reason why, like, it doesn't. No one can tell me. Like, I know, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, because that's what I want. I know that my viewpoint of, like, my standard for myself is higher than most people's, definitely for myself, but for themselves. And that's fine. But that's mine. Because it makes me feel good. Because I like to see that. Because that's what I know that I'm capable of, right. When I'm on that. I feel good because I know that I'm doing the work. I'm knowing I'm doing the things and having this discipline that, you know, the discipline is important to me.

Nicole [01:13:11]: But that's where it should come from. Yourself, not other people. And I guess that's the big point that I've been trying to make the whole time. And I've been saying, like, don't care about it, but it's like, you should care about it for you, not for other people.

John [01:13:23]: Right.

Nicole [01:13:23]: Because you will be your most attractive self when you feel your best. And you will attract people the most in that instance, not when you're trying to look attractive to people. Do you know how many times people are unattractive because they're trying to look attractive? Like, they're trying to fish for compliments. They're trying to, like, you know, make themselves look a certain way, to, like, be appealing to people. Like, that's. That usually does the opposite. So, like, you shouldn't be. But that's also too. Why, when you go on a date, you wear what makes you feel good. You're not like, oh, do you. Do you think the guy with, like, a polka dot dress or, like a red dress, you know what I mean?

John [01:13:58]: But you're also paying about that. Like, you're also paying attention to, obviously, like, you know, you got to have some. Some level of cognition to understand that, that you're going to, like, try to appear attractive to the opposite.

Nicole [01:14:10]: But I think when you feel the best in what you're wearing, you will. That's what I'm saying. Like, you're not trying to analyze.

John [01:14:16]: You don't need to.

Nicole [01:14:17]: Color is going to make him the most attractive to you. And some people do do that. And I think that's a little dumb. I'm not going to lie.

John [01:14:24]: No, I agree.

Nicole [01:14:24]: I think that what you feel the most confident in.

John [01:14:27]: Right.

Nicole [01:14:28]: Is going to make you what's attractive.

John [01:14:31]: But look, you wouldn't go on a date, but you wouldn't go on a date and take all of your hair and put a bunch of gel in it and stick it straight up in the air and be like, I like this. Like, it would be unreasonable.

Nicole [01:14:45]: But if you did, then you better be going on a date with some other girl that's into rock music or something, because she might be attracted to it.

John [01:14:50]: But I'm just saying, like, whatever kind of silly thing, or you wouldn't paint yourself into a clown makeup and then be like, go on it and be

Nicole [01:14:56]: like, talking to extreme.

John [01:14:57]: I am talking to an extreme On

Nicole [01:14:59]: a date with you looking kind of like a wit.

John [01:15:01]: I liked it.

Nicole [01:15:02]: Like, you look like a hot, but I liked it. Yeah, but you look like, that's my vibe.

John [01:15:05]: Yeah, but it wasn't something extremely weird that, like, no one would, like, not liked it.

Nicole [01:15:10]: Like, it could have been a thing. Like, I wore a hat, a black hat, and, like, a black dress. And it was giving witchy vibes in more way than, like, most people would. Yeah, but I felt good in it.

John [01:15:20]: Right.

Nicole [01:15:21]: And then you liked it. So it's like, you know what I'm saying?

John [01:15:23]: But you will look the mirror and you're like, I look good. This looks good. You weren't like, you know, I mean, like, you. You knew that this would probably be attractive to guys. Like, you weren't like, I'm gonna make sure that I'm wearing something that is absolutely, like, has to be attractive to.

Nicole [01:15:39]: Yeah, but I think you're giving again. You're giving extremes. Because I think someone who has a mohawk is gonna go on a date with someone that likes mohawks.

John [01:15:47]: Yeah, but I'm not even talking about a mohawk. I'm talking about just doing something weird.

Nicole [01:15:50]: No one's gonna do that. I've never seen anyone do that.

John [01:15:52]: No one would do that. That's my whole point, is that no one would do that.

Nicole [01:15:55]: Right.

John [01:15:55]: But be.

Nicole [01:15:57]: You're going against my point. The point is that I'm telling people to do things that make them feel confident. And you're trying to say that someone gelling up their hair, not even in a mohawk or putting clown makeup on is going to make them feel confident. No one is doing that.

John [01:16:09]: People do. Do. I. I've seen some. Some really weird stuff that no one is gonna like that people have done,

Nicole [01:16:17]: but I don't think that's anybody genuinely feeling confident. I think that's, again, like, peacocking.

John [01:16:23]: It's peacocking in it.

Nicole [01:16:24]: So, like.

John [01:16:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:16:25]: That you're trying to throw off what I'm trying to say here, and I think it's very important.

John [01:16:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:16:29]: Like, what I'm trying to say is that when you feel most confident in yourself, essentially the same thing that you said about. I genuinely was just as attracted to you when you felt like you were not in your best shape.

John [01:16:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:16:43]: But I knew that if you wanted to do something to make yourself feel better, then you would show up in an even better version of yourself. You wouldn't be beating yourself up. You wouldn't be like, I feel so fat. That you would be feeling good about yourself.

John [01:16:54]: Right.

Nicole [01:16:55]: Or, like, you know, if you want to wear a certain thing, even if you wear a shirt that I'm like, oh, that's like a cool, interesting pattern. Like, maybe it's not something that I. A pattern I would have picked.

John [01:17:06]: Right.

Nicole [01:17:06]: But if you like it and you're rocking it, it looks good. It doesn't matter. That's what I'm saying. Like, when I showed up on our date and I was like, I am looking. Literally before I met you, I was like, I do kind of look like a witch, but I like it. It might scare him off. That was a risk that I was going to take, But I was like, I feel like I look good. I feel like, you know, this is my energy, like, my. My way. I want to present myself right now.

John [01:17:27]: Yeah, but it's in. It's in the realm the range of. Of attractive. It's not in the range of, like, way ridiculous. Like, no one's gonna like this besides me.

Nicole [01:17:37]: Well, I think that you would never

John [01:17:39]: show up on a date wearing something that no one's gonna like besides you. That would be ridiculous.

Nicole [01:17:43]: I don't think anyone would feel confident in that.

John [01:17:46]: Some people might. I'm just saying.

Nicole [01:17:47]: I don't think people that try to say that they can't. Confident in extreme things is like, you. The, like.

John [01:17:55]: Right.

Nicole [01:17:56]: People. I guess I understand where you're. You're trying to say that, like, sometimes people do do extreme things, and they're like, I'm confident and I can do this. But, like, I don't think that we're talking about the same things here.

John [01:18:09]: The. The point is that you can't separate the two. The thing that makes you feel confident, confident is somewhat influenced by what other people like. Right. Even myself. Right. I'm not. I'm not like, you know, there's a reason, like, my standard is probably higher than it would be for myself had I not seen so much imagery of what physiques could look like for men. You see what I'm saying? So everyone is subject to this, right? Like, you are going to be subject to this to a degree. It's to the extreme degree where that's the thing that's the most important thing that. That, like, where your entire thing is to. Is to make other people like you because of how you look. That's where it's not healthy, where it's, like, what you feel comfortable with and confident in. It's influenced by what other people think, obviously, because that's where you got your notion of it from. But it should not be completely dominated by that.

Nicole [01:19:04]: Yeah, but there's plenty of people to grab from, because on, like, again, I still feel like you're trying to derail this when we're essentially saying the same sort of thing. Because I guess my thing, like, here's an example, right? Like, you might not believe this, but there are women who say that they're not as attracted to really buff men. I believe them. Some women like really skinny, scrawny men. So, like, look, I. Again, I can. I can see your eyes rolling here, but, like, you can't. You. You're not gonna be like, okay, this girl, she. I saw her boyfriend was really skinny and strong. So, I mean, skinny and strong, so I'm not gonna eat for three days.

John [01:19:46]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [01:19:47]: You want a woman that's attractive to buff men.

John [01:19:49]: Exactly. No, that's a good point. That. And that's true. That's true. Yeah.

Nicole [01:19:53]: So, like, that's what I'm trying to say here is that you have to do what you feel confident in. And, like, yes. You're gonna put your best foot forward.

John [01:20:00]: Right.

Nicole [01:20:01]: Like, yes, you want to be attractive, but you want to attract the people that are going to be attracted to you for you for what you like.

John [01:20:09]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [01:20:10]: Like, you are a buff man.

John [01:20:12]: Right.

Nicole [01:20:13]: Are you telling me that you're going to not go to the gym because you're talking to a woman who doesn't like muscles? No, you wouldn't do that.

John [01:20:21]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:20:22]: Like, you would just be like, we're not aligned.

John [01:20:24]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:20:25]: That's like, my whole point here is that, like, if we stop stressing about all this stuff, like. Yes. If you don't care at all about what you look like.

John [01:20:33]: Right. Yeah. You're not going to attract very many people at all.

Nicole [01:20:35]: Right. Like, you're not going to have A lot of options. That's true. What you're saying about that is true. If you're also like, have such high standards because you've gotten all these plastic surgeries and you want someone that also looks like they've, they don't have any flaw at all, you're also going to have very limited options.

John [01:20:50]: Right?

Nicole [01:20:50]: But if you know who you are.

John [01:20:53]: Right.

Nicole [01:20:53]: And what you want and like what makes you feel confident here, you want to attract somebody that appreciates that, not try to fit into the box of other people.

John [01:21:02]: Here's the marriage of the two points, which is this is, you should optimize, this is my engineer mind, between number of options and what you like, right? So you need to optimize between those

Nicole [01:21:21]: two things where you can get the most options while still being exactly as

John [01:21:25]: much as possible, right?

Nicole [01:21:26]: Yes.

John [01:21:27]: So like, what you like, you might have to compromise a little bit on what you like because it's like, I mean, you might like to wear some weird ass color that no one's really gonna like or whatever, or wear your hair in some weird way that, that very little people are going to like. And so you might have to compromise a little bit on that. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, for example, I might have to be like, okay, those driver shoes, I like to wear them with socks, but I'm gonna not wear them with socks because most people are gonna be like, like, why is this guy wearing driver's shoes with socks? Right? Like I like to wear them with socks.

Nicole [01:21:57]: Yeah.

John [01:21:57]: But I'm probably gonna make the call. I'll make a little bit of a compromise there and not wear them with socks, even if I like to wear them with socks. Because it does look a little bit weird to most people, which is fine, right? It's not a big compromise.

Nicole [01:22:08]: Yeah.

John [01:22:08]: I'm not sacrificing my, my integrity and my core values. Right. It's like you're making some, but you're trying to optimize it to where you get the sweet spot between maximum options. Like if you're dating and, and what you like, right? And you don't want to go, why? And just be like, I only care what other people like.

Nicole [01:22:26]: Right.

John [01:22:26]: And they don't want to be like, I only care what I like. It doesn't matter if anyone else thinks I'm attractive at all. Well, you're not going to be dating anyone. You see, I'm saying. So that's the marriage of the two things that we're saying.

Nicole [01:22:35]: Yes. But also if someone like breaks up with you for socks, then. Good riddance.

John [01:22:39]: Yeah, well, like I said, it's a minor compromise, but, you know. Okay, I think we have, yes, we have beat this horse.

Nicole [01:22:47]: This one was a debatey one.

John [01:22:49]: It was good, though, because. Yeah, because it's like we're both trying to say similar things, but there's nuances to it, to the. You have to. You only unravel it by talking.

Nicole [01:22:58]: You have the male perspective, and I do think they have to optimize a little bit more. And I think that's why you're saying that.

John [01:23:03]: Right.

Nicole [01:23:03]: Is because men don't get as many dates as women.

John [01:23:07]: Right.

Nicole [01:23:07]: But I don't think that you should super optimize because you do want someone, though, that is attracted to you.

John [01:23:15]: Right.

Nicole [01:23:15]: For what you like as well, too. Because without going too far into it, even when you were like, if you like wearing a certain color and you're not going to wear it on first date, well, when are you going to wear the color? You know what I mean? Like, are you never going to wear that color again? Like, it's like, are you going to wait till it's safe? Like, there's still nuances there. Yeah, but you know what I mean? But I do get that men want to optimize their options because they are the pursuers and they have to initiate. So I do understand your perspective, but I don't want it to go.

John [01:23:41]: No, super. You know, it's a. It's a. It's a combination of those two.

Nicole [01:23:46]: Like vent diagram.

John [01:23:47]: Yeah. Well, yeah, it's like I said, it's. It's maximizing between those two things where you're gonna have to compromise on one or two, you know, but you, you find the sweet spot in the middle where you're not compromising yourself too much and you're not just, like, doing whatever the hell you want.

Nicole [01:24:03]: Yeah.

John [01:24:03]: So, you know, so there you go.

Nicole [01:24:06]: All right, well, if you didn't get all of that, then I don't know what to tell you because that was a long explanation.

John [01:24:13]: Better than PerfectPod.com and get the transcript.

Nicole [01:24:17]: Yeah.

John [01:24:17]: And put it into. Read it again into chat GPT and be like, what the hell did they actually say?

Nicole [01:24:21]: True.

John [01:24:22]: What's the points of this? Right, So I think we got. No, I did. Yeah. But just if you want a quick summary of it. Well, I mean, it'll be on the show notes on the website, actually. So there you go. So we'll. We'll chat GPT it for you.

Nicole [01:24:33]: Yeah. Or send us an email. Better than perfect podcast gmail.com, and check out the website@betterthanperfectpod.com and, you know, got questions, topic. Send them to us.

John [01:24:46]: We'll.

Nicole [01:24:47]: We'll do it.

John [01:24:48]: Yeah, we'll.

Nicole [01:24:48]: We'll send it. Debate it.

John [01:24:51]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [01:24:51]: John's got a vein in his head right now from this one popping out.

John [01:24:56]: Fun. It was fun. All right, we'll see you guys next week.

Nicole [00:00:00]: Avoidant people do. Like living alone.

John [00:00:02]: No one can, whatever, disappoint me.

Nicole [00:00:03]: Right? Yeah, exactly. It's all about. If I mess up, it's on me. I was good before you came along. When I was single and living on my own. And then when you showed up. Yeah, exactly.

John [00:00:14]: Or even having a child. Right. Because you can't predict that behavior. It's a lot of all or nothing. I'm the most loved. This is great. This relationship's awesome. This is the most horrible relationship ever. Everybody hates me. It flips between those beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. And yeah, today we're going to be talking about avoidance. People who are on the. What is it?

Nicole [00:01:00]: Avoidant Attachment.

John [00:01:01]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:01:02]: That's one of the. Is it attachment theory or attachment types? Like, what is the official.

John [00:01:08]: I mean, I think it's like attachment theory. Okay.

Nicole [00:01:11]: Yeah. Because if you don't know, there's anxious. Avoidant. Anxious. Avoidant.

John [00:01:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:18]: Secure.

John [00:01:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:19]: I think that's the only four, Right?

John [00:01:20]: I think that's pretty much. There's kind of like a spectrum. They're. They're like, you know, I mean, they. The thing about these things, too, is I think it's worth saying that all of these things are models, right. So they're not the actual reality. When we label someone or label something, sometimes people take that too seriously. It's just like, this is a way to model things so we can talk about it, so that we can deal with these common behavioral patterns so you

Nicole [00:01:50]: can understand it, not so it can, like, define you. Right, Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. A lot of people think that, like, oh, this is just how I am or whatever. Like. Cause I got this. This matches up. This is what I am. But really it should be like, oh, this is like the tendencies that I have, and it falls under this. And so I don't want to be that. I want to go towards secure. So I need to work on. Not of using these avoidant behaviors and how to, you know, gravitate more towards secure behaviors instead. So it's like, it's supposed to show you, like, what's going on, but it's not supposed to be the end result, if that makes sense.

John [00:02:33]: Exactly. And so just before we get into the avoidant part, let's talk about. Let's re. Like, give a quick summary of what, what the whole thing is of attachment style. So it's like attachment styles are basically, they're formed a lot of times when you're a child, how you relate to your parents. Right? And so, so that, that really defines your model for relationships growing up. So, you know, for example, if, when you're a child, when you were crying, your parents practiced the Spock method of that, that advice at a certain time of just letting you cry it out, then that's going to have a certain effect in the way that you view relationships. That, okay, when I need help, people are not there for me. I have to fend for myself. I can't rely on people. If you're a child and every time that you were upset you got coddled, then it's going to create a different set of expectations in relationships and how you deal with relationships. And then there's intermittent where it's like, sometimes your parents care, sometimes they don't care. You know, a lot of times you see that in, in heavy drug use, like families, where there's mental disorders or drug use, and it's, it's very, I can't rely on people. Right. And so these end up evolving into as adult, different, different conditions, which is anxious, which is when you are, you, you, you are kind of needy, you're trying to hold on to a partner, you're afraid they're always going to leave you. You could say abandonment issues. That, that creates that anxious attachment. You're afraid they're going to cheat on you all the time. Right? That's. Whereas the avoidant is you. You kind of check out. You shut down, you avoid the conflict, you avoid any situations where you'd have to put out your emotions and then you could get rejected because you, you feel like people are not going to be there for you. Right. And then you've got stable, which is, is the, is where you really want to be, where you are. It's not stable. Secure. Right. Secure attachment where you, you have a healthy relationship with. You're not anxious, you're not avoidant. You're. You're, you're in the middle. You, you, you trust people. You're able to have healthy relationships. You know that it's give and take. You know that sometimes you're going to be disappointed, but you can manage your emotions. It doesn't make you freak out. You're not avoiding the situations. And so, yeah, so that's kind of the summary. Did I miss anything?

Nicole [00:05:11]: No, I think it's good. I think that we do form one in childhood for sure. And that I think is typically our like, main one. But I will say I also believe that you can develop a different one or another one.

John [00:05:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:27]: From like traumatic experiences. For sure. In your most important relationships as an adult.

John [00:05:33]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:05:35]: Because when you're describing it, I'm like, I have always leaned more towards, towards avoidant.

John [00:05:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:43]: But there have been some instances where I've been anxious avoidant because there is still that like avoidant tendency still. But then there's also times where I'm anxious. But this is obviously about more of the avoidance stuff. And that is primarily where I was at attachment wise. I would like to think that I'm going more towards the secure.

John [00:06:05]: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:06:06]: Attachment. Now I'm not perfect. I still, you know, have moments where my initial instinct is some of the, the old ways, but it's definitely not how it used to be. And I have you to thank for a lot of that, honestly. But yeah, we talked a little bit in one of the episodes about how avoidant attachment is typically more masculine and anxious is typically more feminine. But it does, it is circumstantial. Right. Like you said. So.

John [00:06:37]: And an anxious avoidant is the, is the worst combination because it's because you're a man. Don't go away from me. Don't leave me. But get away. You're too close. Yeah. Like you're afraid of, of commitment. You're afraid of being too intimate with someone close, but you're also scared of losing them.

Nicole [00:06:57]: Right.

John [00:06:58]: And you. That's the, that's the word. We're not going to talk about that. I mean, some of it leaks in with, with avoidant, but.

Nicole [00:07:03]: Right.

John [00:07:04]: But avoidant is primarily what we're going to discuss today.

Nicole [00:07:07]: It does kind of go in a way. Like people are avoidant because they do care.

John [00:07:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:14]: But they're afraid, like you said, like they're afraid that letting someone in. Because you're right. At a young age they felt like no one's really safe. Like the people closest to me don't feel safe. So nobody's safe. Right. And so their fear a lot of the time in relationships is when someone, when they start getting too deep into it.

John [00:07:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:44]: The risk of that person disappointing them and letting them down.

John [00:07:48]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:49]: Gets more and more terrifying to them. Right. So they self sabotage it before anything could happen because they're, they're assumed that it's gonna happen. Like they don't think it's not gonna happen. It's a win.

John [00:08:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:01]: It's not like exactly. It's not if it's a win.

John [00:08:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:04]: And so they will pick on things that aren't really a big deal.

John [00:08:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:11]: They will. Which I've done. They will use any sort of disagreement to mentally be like, oh, maybe this isn't the right person for me. Like, we shouldn't be arguing about this. Or like any sort of disagreement kind of like turns off their, like, I don't want to say love because it's not turned off, but it's like they're mentally preparing themselves to leave. So at any disagreement they're like, oh, this, this isn't right.

John [00:08:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:44]: And then like, I mean, I feel like those are maybe the main things, but really it's ultimately a self sabotaging behavior. Like a self sabotaging behavior will come out. They'll be like, yeah, you know, maybe this isn't right. Or like, you know, I'm not. A lot of times too, they will make it not your problem. Because I do think deep down we know it's our problem.

John [00:09:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:10]: And we don't want to put that on someone else. But it's also taking the cowardly way of doing that by being like, it's not you, it's me.

John [00:09:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:19]: Which is true. Like, they're not wrong. But you don't realize when you're in it until you're like analyzing your own avoidant behaviors that no one will be perfect.

John [00:09:33]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:34]: So they do end up self sabotaging.

John [00:09:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:39]: And the only way they really can't do that is if they have a secure partner that is like, no, like having disagreements is a normal thing.

John [00:09:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:50]: And like, just because we're going through this doesn't mean that our relationship is broken or ruined or, you know, any of those things. Like, it's very hard for an avoidant and an anxious person to.

John [00:10:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:04]: Work things out. Because someone has to be secure. Like someone has to be secure or close enough.

John [00:10:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:11]: That they can ground the avoidant person. Because obviously avoidant, they're going to try to run away. They're going to try to self sabotage. Like I said, they're going to try to shut down and kind of like go numb or detached.

John [00:10:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:28]: Because that's the protection mechanism. Right. Like detachment essentially is an avoidance protection mechanism.

John [00:10:36]: And that's going to trigger the hell out of the anxious person.

Nicole [00:10:39]: Oh, yeah.

John [00:10:39]: Because that's. The anxious person is afraid of being abandoned. And when, when the avoidant person's running away, then the anxious person is holding on tighter.

Nicole [00:10:50]: Right.

John [00:10:50]: Which is going to make the avoidant person feel trapped and suffocated. Exactly. And then it creates that cycle. So that's why you have to have someone, hopefully, with a secure attachment or. I mean that, like, you should always. It's worth knowing what you and your partner are to go through. There's a book called.

Nicole [00:11:10]: I think it's Attachment Theory.

John [00:11:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:12]: I think that it's, it has the magnets.

John [00:11:14]: Yeah, it's worth knowing that so you can know how to deal with and work through. Because when you understand it, then you can. Or know it and find out, or if you're secure, then you, you know. Okay, why is this person acting this way?

Nicole [00:11:26]: Yeah, right.

John [00:11:27]: But, yeah, so, so the avoidant. And it's, it's interesting because some of the things, you know, like, like, like I said, or like you said, you, you've, you've worked through a lot of it. You're not as avoidant. But some of the things that you would say to me sometimes would be like, it's like you're preparing for the end. Or you'd be like, yeah, I'd rather just, you know, I'd rather it just fall apart, like, just end. Than you cheat on me. And it's like, because you're preparing for that thing and you'd ask me the question all the time is like, are you like, you know, you would tell me if you, if you were going to cheat on me and not just cheat on you would just. I'd rather you just tell me that you don't like me anymore.

Nicole [00:12:05]: Yeah.

John [00:12:06]: And it's like, it's a very avoidant thing because it's important. Preparing for the, you know, like, I, I trying to think of the words that you said. But yeah, many times you've, you had said things like, I'd rather just, just have it, you know, like, like, just

Nicole [00:12:21]: be like, I hate you. Like, I'd rather you, like, look at me and be like, I hate you. I never loved you.

John [00:12:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:26]: Then, like, believe in you and then you betray me.

John [00:12:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:31]: Because, like, that's the underlying thing for the avoidant as well, too. Like, anxious people are afraid of abandonment, but at the same time, like, an avoidant person is afraid of being betrayed. They're afraid of putting their trust in you and you break that because they have never really trusted anyone. And in some ways.

John [00:12:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:49]: That makes you not trust yourself.

John [00:12:51]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:52]: And so. Because if you don't trust anyone.

John [00:12:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:55]: Then you don't really trust yourself. Like, if you can't give that to other people.

John [00:13:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:00]: Like, and I'm not saying you have to trust every single person.

John [00:13:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:03]: But if there's no one else that you can trust and you're like, it's just me, like, I don't even believe that you can really trust yourself. And I've been there, like, when I have felt like I've never really could trust anybody or like, I'm too afraid to put my trust in other people. If I'm being honest, that's what it really is, then how can I trust myself?

John [00:13:23]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:13:24]: And so I'd rather air out all my. All my avoidance stuff because I think this is a big deal.

John [00:13:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:30]: And I think that, you know, I hope men watching this. I think really what I want to do is just lay it all out here, because men typically do suffer with this.

John [00:13:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:41]: And it's so much more detrimental to your relationship if you cannot, like, reflect on your avoidant behaviors, if that's your attachment theory as a man, and fix this problem. Because a woman cannot do it. Like, and especially if she's anxious, like you said, she's just gonna trigger that, and then that's gonna make you wanna run away more or break up more or, like. Like, you'll convince yourself, yeah, this isn't for me. Like, I'm. I don't. Like, it's too much. But that's also your problem. Like, it's too much because of your underlying things that you have going on.

John [00:14:17]: And that's where the whole thing is. Because we've talked about this before in the podcast about women being needy. And it's like. And I've. I've said, no, you. Not, you know, the word needy. But to be dependent, to want the man's attention, to, like, that's a feminine trait. It's good. But if you're avoidant as a man, then that.

Nicole [00:14:37]: Then you hate it.

John [00:14:37]: Then you're like, stop being so needy.

Nicole [00:14:39]: Right.

John [00:14:39]: It's like. But what's happening is you're triggering that response where it's coming across with that energy because, hey, you're avoiding and shutting down. And. And so this other person in their relationship is now trying to hold on tight and trying to get reassurance from you. Because that's the thing is, you know, when you're avoidant, you're not giving the other person reassurance because they need to know, like, again, that's where secure attachment comes from, that their relationship is solid, that people can make mistakes and that's okay. They can be forgiven. That the relationship. There's gonna be ups and downs, but you're gonna Be stable. Like, if you make one mistake, I'm not gonna stop loving you and not gonna abandon you. You know what I'm saying? And so.

Nicole [00:15:25]: Or yeah, they can't give that because they don't feel secure in the relationship. Like, they don't feel secure in any relationship.

John [00:15:31]: Right?

Nicole [00:15:32]: Because like you said, I still asked you those questions. I still might even ask you those questions from time to time. But because, like, not. I don't want to say that I don't feel secure in our relationship. Like I do, but it's like ultimately avoidant people when they get in any relationship, no matter how good it is, I mean, you're the best man in the entire world, in my opinion, and I still ask you those questions. So that's why I want to lay all this out here. Because I think a lot of men and a lot, a lot of avoidant people. I was like this until I met you, right? I was like, oh, well, the right person. This won't happen. And, oh, well, I can find somebody that won't trigger these things in me or won't make me want to run away or whatever. Like, whatever fantasy thing that people think in their head. Like, it's just because they think that this is just not the right person. Right. But. And they can find the right person or the right situation.

John [00:16:27]: Right?

Nicole [00:16:27]: But when I found the right person, yeah. And the right situation, and I was still doing it, you know, from time to time, that's when I really realized that, like, this is a me problem. Like, I. I always kind of knew, but I didn't know the extent. Extent of what I was doing to my own life and how that was even self sabotaging at a lower level. Like, not as, like, blatant, Right?

John [00:16:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:56]: Right. So, like, I think that is very important. And again, it's super important for men because as a woman, even if I was anxious and you were avoidant, I don't feel like I could guide you right through figuring all this out or even if I. You were avoidant and I was secure.

John [00:17:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:21]: As a woman and you're the man and the leader of our relationship and our household. I don't feel like even if I was the most secure person.

John [00:17:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:33]: That I could guide you to understand what I'm saying.

John [00:17:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:37]: So. So. And you helped me a lot and it worked with us because you were the secure one and you're the man. And you, you did help me. Like, when I would literally run away from you in the beginning, you would follow me and be like, no, we need to talk about this. And I hated that.

John [00:17:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:51]: Like, I hated it and I still resisted it.

John [00:17:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:53]: But now I don't do that at all.

John [00:17:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:56]: Even now you've been kind of walking away from me at times, and I'm like, what? Like, you taught me not to do this. So it's hard.

John [00:18:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:05]: And it's the same sort of thing when you have to, like, grow through something that has defined your whole life. Like our attachment theories, like you said, they start really young and they have kind of defined our whole lives.

John [00:18:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:19]: But at the end of the day, everyone that has Anxious. Avoidant. Anxious. Avoidant. Should be working towards a secure, you know, attachment to their partner and people they have relationships with. But I just feel like it is important to talk about the avoidant specifically because I feel like the anxious does, like, continuously try to repair, even if they're not doing it again in their own way. It's still not correct. It's still not secure. But I do, like. I do feel like they attempt more repair with their partner. Whereas Avoidant, they're having this, like, internal monologue. And a lot of times they're not even expressing any of this to their partner. And then they've already convinced themselves because they're living from a place of no, they're gonna let me down anyway. Or, like, I can't trust anyone. And, you know, or this doesn't feel right. It's not supposed to feel like this. But they don't know, you know, so they're living in their own mind. A lot of the time they're not communicating as much because they're avoidant. They avoid the conversations. And so then they've already made a decision that they've kind of solidified in their own mind.

John [00:19:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:32]: But it's not the reality. It's all coming from these stories that we've been telling ourselves.

John [00:19:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:40]: From the very beginning.

John [00:19:41]: Right. And it's self fulfilled. They're. They're trying to prove themselves. Right. They're. They're trying to prove that. Oh, see, this is. I knew that. That they didn't love me.

Nicole [00:19:51]: Right.

John [00:19:51]: And this proves it. So they're looking for evidence to support that so that they can get out of there and not get hurt.

Nicole [00:19:58]: Right.

John [00:19:59]: And it's like, no, the reality is, life is in any relationship, you have to put your full self into it, and you could still get hurt because you can't ever protect yourself from it. So it's like, I'm going to hurt myself before someone else hurts me.

Nicole [00:20:12]: Right.

John [00:20:13]: I'M going to blow this up. Exactly.

Nicole [00:20:15]: Like, I'm going to hurt me. I'm going to ruin my life. So. So someone else can't.

John [00:20:19]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:19]: That's essentially what it is.

John [00:20:21]: But it's like the self sabotaging comes when you're trying to prove that they don't love you. And by doing that, you end up creating the circumstances that you're looking for because you're, like, always scared they're gonna cheat on you, or you're scared that they're gonna. You know, they don't. They don't care about your emotions or feelings. And then it's like you're creating such distance that you. You can sometimes make that happen. And they're like, oh, see, I. I knew it. It's like, well, or you push them away so hard that when they actually leave, you might even say something like, get out of here. I don't want to see you again. And then when they walk out the door, you're like, I can't believe you actually walked out the door. I can't believe that. And it's like, well, you created that circumstance to prove it. And it's like, see, I knew that you were like this. I knew you would just give up. I knew that you didn't really care about me. I knew that you weren't. And it's like, okay, you created this circumstance in order. You set someone up for failure. And so. And it's. That's why it's important to recognize it. And I think one of the things that. That I. That I learned is as far as,

Nicole [00:21:20]: like, was I the first avoidant, like, woman you've been with? I guess to that level, I think to that.

John [00:21:28]: Well, to that level for sure. Right.

Nicole [00:21:31]: But I was at a high level. It was a high level, and it didn't. Okay. The other thing, too, is, like, avoidant people do, like, living alone, right?

John [00:21:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:40]: Because it's like, no one can whatever, Right? Yeah, exactly. And it's all about, yeah, go back home. I mess up, it's on me. Like. And that's the only person you feel like you have when you're avoidant.

John [00:21:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:52]: So, you know, I was good before you came along when I was single and living on my own. And then when you showed up. Yeah, exactly.

John [00:22:00]: Or even having a child. Right. Because you can't predict that behavior.

Nicole [00:22:04]: Right.

John [00:22:04]: It's like, it's gonna be. It's. It's a lot of all or nothing.

Nicole [00:22:07]: Mm.

John [00:22:08]: I'm the most loved. This is great. This relationship's awesome. This is the most horrible relationship ever. Everybody hates me. Like, it's. It flips between those. Those two things because it's. It's like there's a perfectionism that I can't mess up, they can't mess up. You know what I mean? Otherwise it's not. It's not the perfect thing and I could lose that. And so that's. It is. Yeah. Because you can't control that environment. And that's because one of the things that you would say is, like, I would just not be around this kind of person. Well, it's like, okay, yeah, that's literally avoidant. Like, to be like, I'm not going to be around people that I don't like. Again, you should have boundaries. You don't have to be around negative people.

Nicole [00:22:47]: And partially true, partially avoidant.

John [00:22:51]: Yeah, because there's truth to it. Like setting boundaries. You shouldn't force yourself to be around people that are not your people that you don't like. But at the same time, life is going to bring you in the path of people that you don't necessarily want to be around. And you can't just be run away and hide and escape from them, you know, or, you know, or difficult situations, difficult conversations, relationships that may be strained. But the avoidant is like, well, if I was just by myself, look, any

Nicole [00:23:16]: other avoidant person definitely would have ran away from a lot of the situations that I've been put through.

John [00:23:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:22]: But no, you're right, because it is. It does feel like, how can you love me if you're acting this way? You know what I mean? Like, how can you love somebody and then totally flip the switch, like, to the extreme. Yeah, I guess that's like, that's the hard part. And that's where that's probably. Honestly too, like you said what avoidant people probably felt in some degree in their early childhood. And that's why, like, they can maybe feel like somebody cares.

John [00:23:53]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:54]: But I feel like until you meet somebody that, like, you honestly were the first person that showed me that you can care in a hard situation.

John [00:24:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:04]: Like, no one else really made me feel that way except you. And that also too, was very beneficial for me to see and be like, oh, like it isn't one or the other. Because it does feel like one or the other, you know, too anxious or avoidant people. Right. I feel like that is what causes these things. Both of these things.

John [00:24:26]: Yeah. That's why it's not secure.

Nicole [00:24:27]: Right.

John [00:24:27]: Because their relationship is always in jeopardy.

Nicole [00:24:29]: Right, Right.

John [00:24:30]: Secure is when it and, and the key, I think, to moving to secure that I found in my own life. And this is when it does fluctuate for me because yeah, a lot of times I'm in the middle of. Right, right there, unsecure. But sometimes I might go to one side or the other and what controls it is my own self confidence and self efficacy. When I am on my stuff and I know what I'm doing and I feel secure in myself, my identity, who I am as a person and have that self confidence, then I'm more secure because then I'm in the perspective of, okay, if something's going on with someone else, it's not me, it's something going on with them. It's not personal. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:25:15]: You're not letting it wear you down. So then you're either anxious or avoidant or. Yeah, no, that, that is tr. That is true. And I think that's also besides your help in like me facing a lot of the avoidant behavior and like your guidance to work through that. I think that honestly that has been the biggest thing is like not taking people's stuff personally because I was also doing that as well because I do think weirdly, avoidant people are kind of people pleasers as well because they're avoiding hard conversations to not hurt someone's fear feelings.

John [00:25:54]: Right?

Nicole [00:25:54]: But they're, they're keeping all that in, right? And so they're building resentment. So then by the time they like have a blow up, it's not like usually a screaming thing. It's usually they have collected all this resentment and now they're like, that's the final straw. And then you as the person, you're like, what? You didn't even say anything.

John [00:26:17]: Right?

Nicole [00:26:17]: Because the most of the time they don't exactly. We don't say anything.

John [00:26:21]: Yeah. They're like, I dropped all these hints, right? And it's like, well, yeah, because you've just now ended the relationship or shut down completely and you never gave the other person a chance to fix the things because you never really communicated the thing well.

Nicole [00:26:36]: And then the thing is like, oh, well, they should just know. Okay? And I, I have said this.

John [00:26:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:41]: Not in our relationship, I've said this.

John [00:26:43]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:44]: And I believed this.

John [00:26:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:46]: And I think a lot of avoidant people do believe this. But what changed my mind with this is that I can't read their mind. Why do I expect them to read my mind? Right. Like, that's not realistic.

John [00:27:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:00]: And I do think that, sure, maybe, like, if it's the extreme you feel like your partner doesn't like isn't asking you about your day or like doesn't even really talk to you about anything and like kind of just talks about their stuff. I can see where that would feel like, like they don't care. But that is a very extreme, like rare sort of situation.

John [00:27:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:25]: But a lot of avoidant people act like a normal situation. Is that situation. Does that make sense? Like, yeah, they, in their mind they're making it into this like extreme thing. Right. Where they're thinking, they're literally convincing themselves that their partner does not care about them. They never ask what's wrong. They never like be like, hey, where do you want to go for dinner? They never are considerate of them. That's what they're convincing themselves when like one inconvenient thing happens.

John [00:27:52]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:27:53]: You know what I mean? Like they paint this whole picture because like you said, it has to fit the narrative of everyone ends up disappointing me in the end.

John [00:28:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:03]: And when your mindset is that right, Whether you're consciously doing it or not.

John [00:28:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:09]: Like you said again, you are looking for those things to back up that belief.

John [00:28:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:15]: To either end up full blown self sabotaging it or heading that way as an avoidant person. You're either heading towards blowing it up or you're. You probably did blow it up already. Like there is no not blowing it up. Really. Not unless you notice these behaviors in yourself and try to become more secure in your attachment like you said and work through it rather than keeping tally.

John [00:28:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:45]: Before, you know, you leave because you know it's going to get messed up anyway.

John [00:28:49]: And a good way to look at it is in terms of how you get your needs met. Right. So the avoidant person says that if I emotionally burden people, I won't get my needs met. And I'm not going to get my needs met anyway, so I'm not going to try to get my needs met. The anxious person says I can get my needs met if I keep on asking. Yeah. If I keep on trying to get my needs met. The secure person says I can meet my own needs is that I'm not expecting people to meet my needs. I can meet my needs. And that becomes the difference between being codependent and interdependent. The anxious and the avoidant are both codependent situations instead of interdependent where you're choosing to depend on each other versus I need. I have to get my needs met from this other person. And it's the style in which you do it. The avoidant person says the only way I can get my needs met is by being people pleaser and being perfect. And if I do everything right then they'll notice and they will come and meet my needs without me asking. Because if I ask about it I'll get let down, they'll get upset at me.

Nicole [00:29:59]: Right.

John [00:30:00]: We just saw some of this talk about this pattern last night with, with our daughter. Some of the stuff that she was expressing that, that people were making her feel that way. Right. Whereas the, the anxious person is, is like okay, well if I, you know, their strategy for getting their needs met is I have to like, I have to love bomb them. I have to like show that, you know, like if I do all this and I'm and I, and I show them how much I love them then they're going to come back and, and meet meet my needs. You know, stop running away. Like you know, so, so I think that's, that's really the key thing and that's where it comes back to the self confidence is that if you're, you know, you don't want to be hyper self reliant. It's more having the self esteem and self confidence of, of saying okay, I'm not depending on someone else to meet my need, especially my emotional needs. And from that place that's where the security comes from. Is it really? Because if you're constantly in the place of my needs have to be met from someone else then it's not going to happen 100% of the time. And so you're going to get into a panic state one way or the other. So that's the thing is for the avoidant to realize that look, your strategy for getting your needs met is that you're trying to people please and trying to be perfect and that's going to backfire. That doesn't get your needs met. You have to be in some degree, have some self efficacy and say okay, I can meet my needs, I can still trust someone else but I can't put everything, my whole expecting my emotional state to be this person's gonna act perfect and I can't win their love by we always talked about love is a gift, it's not something that's earned. I can't win the love because the avoidant person is trying to win the love by doing so many things. Like all the people that we know that, that are avoidant1 One common characteristic is they're trying to be so good, they're trying to do so many Things give so many gifts, whatever it is, in order to win and earn the love, and that never works.

Nicole [00:32:12]: Well, like you said, it's like you try to be perfect because then you feel like it'll just. You'll just naturally get what you want, like you said. But then also because you're trying to be perfect and you're not. No one is right. You also want your partner to be perfect, and they're not because no one is right. So then you think that they're wrong, even though you know that you're not perfect. You know you're trying your hardest and that somehow feels good enough, I guess.

John [00:32:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:38]: So when you feel also like your partner's not trying as hard to be good enough or they make a mistake, you're like, oh, well, they're not like me or whatever. Like, they're not doing what I'm doing right, what you think is right. But you are shaming yourself because you are taking this stuff personally, like you said. Because that's really the key is, like, you can't try to be perfect, but then when you make a mistake, you also take it so personally on yourself. And that's what a lot of avoidant people do. It's like they beat themselves up for not being perfect, Right? Because they're beating their partner up for not being perfect in the sense of like, oh, I guess you're not really for me, or like, I can't. That my perfect partner wouldn't do this. Or, you know what I mean? Like, they make all these excuses for why this isn't going to work when their partner messes up.

John [00:33:23]: Right, Exactly.

Nicole [00:33:24]: And they do do that to themselves, but it's with shame, right. Whether the person knows it or not, it's with shame. So then they feel bad for not being perfect, so then they push being perfect even more and on the other person even more.

John [00:33:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:40]: And then it just causes a lot more problems than if they just communicated and stopped trying to be so perfect and then expecting that of their partner as well. Like, you have to. I feel like as an avoidant person, you have to realize, like, there has to come a point to break your avoidant behavior where you accept that you're not perfect and you accept the ways that, like, you're bad. I don't want to say bad because it's not bad, but like, your dark side or your bad tendencies. Right. Because you can't accept that in other people unless you accept it in yourself first, honestly. And so you have to kind of wake up and be like, I was trying to be everything to everybody and try to be perfect. And I even let myself down and I beat myself up even when I wasn't realizing I was doing it. Because I feel shameful that I messed up. I felt shameful that I wasn't perfect. And then you have to realize that you put that on everyone else as well, too.

John [00:34:41]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:42]: And no one can live up to that. You can't even live up to that.

John [00:34:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:46]: And we had a long conversation about this, and it really helped me realize this as well. Like, and wake up and kind of like, stop putting that on other people. And then also, like, the not taking things personally. But I really feel like avoidant people can't trust other people.

John [00:35:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:03]: And they instill that by not communicating with them. Like, if you just communicated more.

John [00:35:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:13]: Even the things that you're afraid are going to hurt someone's feelings. Like, I do believe that you need to say it the right way.

John [00:35:19]: Right. For sure.

Nicole [00:35:20]: Like, that doesn't mean that you go from not saying anything to being like, your shirt is so ugly. Like, that's not. No, that's not how you do it. That doesn't mean you go from repressing everything to now you're just spewing what you think is honesty on everyone else. That's not correct either.

John [00:35:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:37]: And your shirt's not ugly, by the way. I was just using that as an example. But you cannot have trust without communication. And the funny thing is, is that, like, avoidant people think they can't trust other people.

John [00:35:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:50]: But other people can't trust avoidant people because they're avoiding talking about stuff and then they're harboring resentment. And then the other person on the other side's like, well, you never said any of this stuff.

John [00:36:02]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:03]: And then the avoidant person's like, well, I didn't think I had to. I thought it was obvious. It's not obvious.

John [00:36:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:08]: It's not obvious at all. Because it was all happening in your own mind.

John [00:36:11]: Yeah. Because you're. Yeah. You're running this whole scenarios and all these reasons and explanations instead of actually asking the person.

Nicole [00:36:19]: Right.

John [00:36:19]: And. And that's where kind of. Again, that's where the whole definition of secure comes from. Going back, a little bit of what you said is that it's knowing that you are loved no matter what. That love isn't conditional because. And that's also how to be a good parent. Right. If you don't want to create these insecure attachment styles in your child, is that what they do. Their behavior does not influence how much you show them love. Because that's what happened to the child in the childhood was that they learned ways in order to get love. Right. That's the same thing as getting your needs met. But just like that whole perfection thing comes down to, all right, well, if I'm not perfect, I'm not loved. And it's like, to be secure is to say it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what I do or I don't do. I'm loved despite that. Because relationship. In a relationship, you. You love the, the other person. It's not about how are they behaving or what are they doing.

Nicole [00:37:24]: Not to say that, but kids can't understand that. That's why we learn these behaviors. Right. Like a kid can't see their parent being avoidant.

John [00:37:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:31]: Or like giving them the silent treatment or like, you know, whatever anxious parent might do. I don't know.

John [00:37:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:36]: But a child can't see that and be like, oh, I'm loved anyway.

John [00:37:40]: Well, you know, can see it by example. For example, that's what we talked about before is like, when you discipline, if you do that with love, without anger. Because when a child makes a mistake, are you now withdrawing love from them because they've upset you in some way?

Nicole [00:37:57]: Right.

John [00:37:58]: Even though you still love them, they know, like, you know that.

Nicole [00:38:01]: Right.

John [00:38:02]: But if you're acting in a way that's cold to them because they now did something that you didn't like, or you give them a silent treatment, then they're learning that, okay, when I act a certain way or I'm too needy or whatever it is, I'm not loved. And so that's the thing is you can demonstrate it to a child by the discipline, by having consequences. You have to have consequences. If you don't have it, then it creates a whole different problem with it, but you have the consequences. But you discipline in love, the difference between discipline and punishment. And they, they feel that it's. It's a consequence, a natural consequence of their actions, but it does not cause a. A disconnect in. In. In love.

Nicole [00:38:46]: Right. But I would say that a parent that can do that is mostly, at least in that moment, secure, for sure,

John [00:38:54]: that you have to be. To do that. Yeah.

Nicole [00:38:56]: Because an actual avoidant parent and an actual anxious parent are not going to behave that way most of the time. And that's why a lot of us end up the way that we end up. Right. Because you didn't feel like there was unconditional Love. Like, even as an adult, you can look back and you can be like, I know my parents did love me. But as a child, you don't know. Like, you feel like when your parent gives you the silent treatment after you upset them, they don't love you anymore.

John [00:39:22]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:39:23]: And they don't say, I still love you.

John [00:39:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:26]: Like, they just talk to you one day after. You know, ladies, a lot of them don't even apologize.

John [00:39:32]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:39:32]: So, like, and maybe an anxious parent would be, like, clinging to the child and being like, are you sure you still love me? Or, I don't know. You know, like, I don't. I don't know how an anxious parent would act. But, you know, both those situations, like, both of those situations, if the parent doesn't have at least some secure attachment that they have worked on.

John [00:39:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:57]: They're not going to be able to give that to their kid. And that's why, though, you see people who have, like, extreme versions of one or the other, they didn't usually have a parent that made them feel loved in those hard moments. And it is important, and it is what we should give every kid.

John [00:40:14]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:15]: Because that will help them also grow up more secure. And who doesn't want their kid to be set up emotionally as well as, like, getting ready to tackle the world and all the other ways that we prepare children to face the world, like, that should be the most important, is how they emotionally deal with all that stuff. So, yes, I agree with you, but I would say that any parent that's doing that, like, we try to do, it's. It is a. You have to work through your own stuff.

John [00:40:42]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:40:43]: Otherwise, and be secure for your child and your relationship and, like, for your future. Like, you can't just run away from everything. And that's another thing. Part of the avoidant is running away. Like, and I would even do that when I. Like, something bad wouldn't happen. Like, right before I met you, when I lived in Florida, there was a part of me that was kind of like, oh, I kind of, like, just want to move somewhere.

John [00:41:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:06]: You know what I mean? And, like, I didn't think of that as, like, avoidant, because I'm like, I'm not talking to anybody.

John [00:41:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:13]: Nothing bad is happening. I'm just kind of bored right now.

John [00:41:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:17]: You know what I mean? And so. And I also had a lot of jobs, which is probably the same thing, too. Like, I genuinely liked them.

John [00:41:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:24]: But I would be like, okay, time for something else. You know what I mean? And, like, in a Way that's also avoidant is like thinking that this is what you want in life. But when I became more secure, I'm like, actually like all I want is just to kind of be around my family and like live a healthy life. Like I don't need to like go and do stuff all the time or I don't need to like, I'm not bored.

John [00:41:48]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:49]: And need some, something else to excite myself.

John [00:41:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:53]: So even like running away or constantly trying to switch things up, it's still like a distrust in yourself. Like it's still.

John [00:42:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:01]: Like you're, you're not comfortable with yourself because when you need to change something like that to make you feel something, that's, that's an inner problem.

John [00:42:12]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:42:12]: Not an outer problem.

John [00:42:14]: Yeah. And a couple of points on the avoiding thing that I wanted to kind of back on the parenting. But it also goes with, with just in a relationship. Is that when you're. Because you said about like, you need to be secure in order to be able to do it, to parent correctly is that you might not even notice it. You might think that you're, you're, you're just being, being loving, but you'll, you'll act differently towards the person. You might not give them a silent treatment, but they can feel it. They can feel that you're treating them differently or acting in a way that's different to them and whether that be a child or in a relationship. So you might think that you're okay because you didn't yell at them or you didn't silent treatment them. But that happens in a relationship. Someone will say, well, what's wrong? I'm just stressed. I'm just having side. I'm just thinking about things. It's like they know something's off with you because you are acting differently to them because you don't like something that they did. And so that's the thing is you can't hide it. You have to actually work through it. Otherwise you're going to be thinking that you're responding the right way, which we should talk about how to respond, especially when you're dealing with someone who's avoidant. And the second one is a phrase that if you say this because I think a lot of people that are watching this probably you should be able to figure out if you're avoiding. If you say things like, they would be better off without me. Right. That's another guilty. But not just you. I mean, I've heard it from multiple.

Nicole [00:43:49]: Yeah. People right now I'm Just saying that, like, I'm just admitting I've done all these things.

John [00:43:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:54]: Because I think it's important.

John [00:43:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:56]: Because people, I don't think people realize how. And again, I can't talk on anxious as much, but I don't think people realize because I think again, the tricky part, not to like go. I'm not going to go too far off your thing.

John [00:44:10]: Oh yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:44:11]: But I don't. I think people a lot of times confuse being independent with their avoidant behavior. And so it's a little bit more accepted because anxious, obviously it comes off as needy and it's a little bit more like off putting, I would say to some people.

John [00:44:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:31]: But like avoidant can come across as like independent and so it's not as like frowned upon, I guess you could say. But it's like intermingled together and it really, a lot of the time is not independence, it's avoidance.

John [00:44:48]: Exactly. Because it's like again, another phrase is I lost myself. I don't know who I am. I've lost myself in the relationship. I don't have an identity anymore. These are all avoidant phrases that you can recognize. Well, I mean, it's also helpful to recognize it when you see someone else doing it.

Nicole [00:45:05]: Right.

John [00:45:05]: And you're like, oh shit, I said the same things. And it's like, because it's like I didn't give them the script. They said the same exact things that I'm saying. And, and, and the thing is, because when you get into a relationship, you, you become one. There's a joint identity. You still have your own, but it's, it's a joint identity mostly. But that's the whole independent thing where the avoidant blows up the relationship after it gets deep enough because you're supposed to be like this. That's what deep intimacy is, where the identities merge together to a degree. And, and the avoidant person, when that starts to happen, they're like, I'm losing myself.

Nicole [00:45:40]: Yeah.

John [00:45:41]: And they freak out and they're like, ah, there's this person's wrong for me. I have to get away. I need, I lost myself. I need to figure out who I am again. And it's like, no, no, no. That's the natural process of intimacy, of becoming one is that, that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. You have to see who you are in that, in the view yourself from the relationship. Because you're not like an independent one person anymore. You are a unit. You know that that is, that is, is one that you're, you know, it's a. It's a symbiotic relationship and that. And so those are just some of the phrases and the things that, that you'll see that can help. You know, like, if you've said these things, you know, I'm sure a lot of people listening are watching are like, oh, shit, I've said those exact things. Okay, well, now you know, right. That you're. So I think we should talk about how do you help someone if you're in the secure. Who's.

Nicole [00:46:33]: Yeah, please, please take the floor on that, because you definitely have helped me a lot. Like, I genuinely don't think I could have broken the behaviors that I have without your help.

John [00:46:46]: Well, I love you and I want what's best for you. So I would say that the number one thing is to recognize it. And again, as a, As a. When you're in a secure place, like, don't take it personally. They're not, They're. They're living out their childhood, their past relationships. It's not about you. Because I think at first I did take it personally a lot. You know, like, are you looking at women at the gym? I'm like, you know, I was getting upset. Like, how. Why don't you trust me? It's like, it's not personal. It's not that, that, that you don't trust me. It's. You don't trust anyone.

Nicole [00:47:19]: Well, I did get anxious mixed in there because of what we went through as well, too. Because you did leave multiple times.

John [00:47:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:28]: And so it did make me. But then I still definitely had avoidant because I was already hard in the avoidant behavior. Right. But because of the other stuff that you and I went through, then it threw in some anxious in there. And like you said, that's kind of like the worst because you're like, like, I never said to you, like, go away. No, I want you to stay. But that essentially was what was happening.

John [00:47:48]: Yeah, but. But I think that the big thing is, like I said, it's just recognizing that it's. It's not personal what's going on. It's. It's a childhood. It's an ingrained way of dealing with the world. And, and, and the thing that I try to do is to reinforce to you that love is a gift and, and for coming from me, it's unconditional. And that no matter what you do, I'm going to love you, even if you make mistakes. And, and that it's. You can always come and talk to Me and sometimes we'll disagree, but I'm always going to love you. There's nothing that you're going to do that's going to change that. You know, in one, one phrase I like is, you know, I wouldn't necessarily say this to an avoidant, but you know, I can. You can unconditionally love someone, but not unconditionally stay with them. It's like there are certain boundaries that there are certain things you're not going to be like, okay, no matter what you do to me, I'm going to be here. It's like I'll still love you, but it might be from a distance, you know, but, but the main thing to emphasize I think is just that unconditional love when they make a mistake to have, you know, to have grace for them and to help them to see that when you're perfect, it doesn't make me love you more.

Nicole [00:49:06]: Right, right.

John [00:49:07]: When you admit mistakes, that actually makes me feel good, makes me feel. I appreciate that. Because the avoidant person also is very likely to never admit that they did anything wrong because hey, if you did something wrong, you're not going to be loved anymore. And so I think the way to help someone is to do that. That's the most important thing is showing the unconditional love. And then the second thing is to make them confront the things. Don't let them run away. Not in the anxious, needy, you don't love me anymore. Let me hold on to you tight. But on the.

Nicole [00:49:40]: Okay, no, we're going to talk about this.

John [00:49:42]: Yeah, there's no, we're not going to take five minutes. We're not going to sleep on this. We don't go to bed angry. We don't do this. We're going to hash this out and we're going to talk about this however long that it takes. Because this is how we deal with our problems. We don't run away from them. And it might be hard to do, but you've got to do that because if you allow the avoidant person to continue in those avoidant behaviors, then they're just gonna self sabotage.

Nicole [00:50:08]: Right, right. It will blow up their relationship at some point.

John [00:50:10]: Yeah. And, and I think the biggest thing that, that's, that's, that's been more recent for me that I've been really, really trying to focus on is just, just being, being completely non reactive and, and, and being a safe places, a safe person to talk to because that's also the avoidance fear. It's like, oh, I'll just Deal with the problems myself. Because if I talk to this person,

Nicole [00:50:33]: it can make it worse.

John [00:50:34]: Yeah, exactly. Where it's like, okay, sometimes you're going to hear things that you don't like and that's fine, but don't react to it. Still be loving in that response. You can disagree, you can say, hey, this is not correct. But staying loving, because they're looking for. If I say this, oh, now they're withdrawing love from me. Even though that might not be the case. Because it's. But. But if you are, I think it

Nicole [00:51:03]: is, honestly, because the same thing like you said with like avoidant people, even if you're not doing anything wrong, you can feel it.

John [00:51:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:10]: Like there is a difference between someone being upset and expressing that.

John [00:51:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:17]: And then someone trying to punish somebody with their emotions. And I think that even like secure people or people who are like, lean more towards that can punish.

John [00:51:30]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:31]: And like, that feels. That makes a avoidant person feel like, I'll just process this on, on my own. And really they can't. Even though they think they can.

John [00:51:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:42]: Because they would rather take on the discomfort.

John [00:51:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:46]: Even though they can't do it very well.

John [00:51:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:48]: Then like you said, like, bring it up and then be punished. Or a lot of times they don't have secure partners, so they're either also getting the silent treatment or having the anxious person be like, what, what do you mean? Like, you hate me, you want to leave me, or whatever. And then now they have to deal with that.

John [00:52:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:52:07]: So, like, I'm not saying that again, because you can't expect the other person to be perfect.

John [00:52:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:52:14]: And I think when you work on your avoidant tendencies and you become a little bit more secure, you also realize that you have to be like, when your partner is also going to be human and like, maybe try to punish you or something. You have to get your together. But like to kind of go back to about, like sometimes that happens. I think it is. I think what avoidant people also need to realize since they do have that like, perfectionism as well a lot of the times is that, yeah, like, even if the people around you can notice that you're still a little different, you have to not beat yourself up about that. Because just even staying in it for an avoidant person is a big step. Like, yes, you need to work on that. But I don't want avoidant people to be like, oh, so they can tell when I'm like, not even leaving or. And I'm like trying to do the right thing and they can, like, tell that I'm, like, still kind of, like, detaching in my brain or whatever's happening.

John [00:53:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:09]: Like, sure, that might be happening, but. But also, like, you have to think about all the things. You didn't run away.

John [00:53:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:16]: You didn't, like, just give up. You didn't blow up the situation. Like, there's a lot of wins there. And even if, like, you're upset because you can still feel like I'm a little cold or something, if I'm trying to figure out the situation, I just need to take that and do try to do my best next time. Or maybe ask you, like, how do you think I can, like, be like, what is a better way to communicate with you? Or how can I communicate with you where I feel like I can openly talk to you?

John [00:53:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:46]: Because I do feel like sometimes even when an avoidant person's trying to do the right thing, they still don't feel like they can talk to that person.

John [00:53:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:56]: And so that's why they are still detached even though they're trying to do the right thing.

John [00:54:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:00]: And I'm not trying to put it on other people, but the reality also is, is that, like, you want to help this person.

John [00:54:08]: And yeah. Even though it's. It might be their thing, it's still you want to help as much as you can being the other person.

Nicole [00:54:17]: Right, Right.

John [00:54:18]: So.

Nicole [00:54:18]: Right.

John [00:54:18]: So what you're saying is correct. It should all help.

Nicole [00:54:21]: Like, we should all be a safe place for our partner.

John [00:54:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:24]: Like, and I guess that's the thing is, like, sometimes in the past. Yeah. I'm sure I have come across that way because I know that's why you're bringing it up. And it's true, because it still hasn't felt safe. But I know that recently you can tell the difference, because I have felt safe. Safe.

John [00:54:41]: Right. And that. And that's where I was falling down before that I recognized. And that's what I had been working on to, to change is to make sure that. That, you know, I. I think when someone's not avoidant, when they bring something to you and you act a little more upset, it's not going to create that big of a problem. But when an avoidant person opens up and they bring the thing, you better make sure that it feels 100% safe. And that's what I had to learn was to. To. To. To deal. To deal in that way. You know what I'm saying? And. And that's good. Like, you know, and that. And that. That helped me as A person as well. Because you should just deal with everybody like that, obviously. Right.

Nicole [00:55:20]: But that's ideal. But you're a human.

John [00:55:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:23]: And so I don't expect that from you even all the time, even though you've done a really great job. I will say that. But another thing that an avoidant person needs to do in those situations too, which is what I've learned more recently, is that going back to, like, not taking things personally will also help you if you're still kind of like feeling a little detached or distant even though you're doing the right thing.

John [00:55:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:45]: Is not taking what's going on personally. And that means sometimes you having to say again, in the right way how you feel to someone that is upset or trying to punish you or whatever.

John [00:55:57]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:58]: And then however they respond is their. Their thing to feel like you can care and you can obviously be there.

John [00:56:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:56:06]: But you don't try to take. You don't try to fix them and yourself.

John [00:56:09]: Right. Like, you make sure you're doing the right thing.

Nicole [00:56:12]: Right. Because I think they still get detached because they avoid. And people feel like they can't speak up. But you need to learn to speak up still in the right way. But also not allow somebody to bulldoze you to the point where you feel like you can't speak up because it's not safe. Like, you still need to do it even if it's not safe. And realize that how someone else is respond, like how someone responds to you is on them, not you. Just like, how you're not. You're, like, still detached, but you think you're doing the right thing is on you. Like, you still need to say what you need to say. Because that's also why you're, like, coming across, like, cold. Because you still have something that you're processing that you're not saying out loud. But it still, it still does need to be in the right way.

John [00:56:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:56]: But I think that if you, especially if you don't have somebody that is secure and wise enough to realize that they want to speak to everybody as a safe person no matter what.

John [00:57:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:06]: Because that's very rare.

John [00:57:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:09]: If you don't take personally what someone is, how they're reacting to you, and you still speak your truth in the right way, you will feel better. You won't treat that person that way. But you still might have to be like, I'm not going to have this conversation if you're yelling at me or whatever. You might have to have a boundary.

John [00:57:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:28]: Depending on how the person's acting, but you also won't take it personally.

John [00:57:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:57:33]: And so you'll be able to not come from that avoidant place because you're actually saying how you feel. You're speaking to them like you're speaking your truth.

John [00:57:42]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:57:43]: You're, like, showing them that you are trusting yourself and you're trusting them with this information. Whatever they do, that's on them. You can't control that. But you spoke your truth, and you will feel better regardless of what they say or do in the conversation.

John [00:57:58]: And that's what a boundary is. Right. So it's like, because we've talked about this a couple of times, but I think it's worth rehashing real quickly about the boundary thing. Is a boundary. You can think of it as, let's say that you have your yard in your neighbor's yard, and the boundary is the fence. And so this is what's your stuff, and this is what's my stuff. And so boundaries aren't. You. You take. You go into your neighbor's yard and put a fence in their yard. Right, Right. Boundaries are. You clearly delineate. It's like, you can do what you want to do, but I can do what I want to do.

Nicole [00:58:30]: Right.

John [00:58:31]: And so if you do this thing that's disrespectful to me, I'm not going to try and control you and say, you can't do that.

Nicole [00:58:38]: Right.

John [00:58:38]: But I am going to do this, and I'm going to withdraw from this conversation. And so it's like when you're setting a boundary, it's also the way to do it is in love. Because it's not like, you can't talk to me like that. I'm setting a boundary. Like, you know, you're crossing my boundary. No, no, it's. It's a gentle approach to say, look,

Nicole [00:58:58]: hey, we love each other.

John [00:59:00]: Right.

Nicole [00:59:00]: We should talk to each other. Like we do.

John [00:59:02]: Yeah. And. And that it's not the first thing, because some people are like, all right, let's. It's. It's like, yeah, if. If you met your neighbor and then your neighbor, you got into a little bit of a disagreement, a political disagreement or something, and you're like, I'm building a fence. You know, it's like, no, you don't just like, the boundary is something that you use as more of a last resort when you have to protect yourself and delineate what is yours and what is someone else's. A good section of a book that's not even related to boundaries. That talks about this concept is the courage should be disliked. There's a part, I think at the end of the book where he's talking about what's their bundle, I think he calls it, and what's yours. And it's like you can't take someone else's stuff. They have to carry their own load and you have to carry yours. And so it's like when you're setting the boundary in the relationship, especially with someone who is avoidant, you have to be loving why you're doing it. And it has to be very clear that, that it's not a withdrawal of love. It's not a way to, to block off the other person. It's a way of making sure that they take responsibility for their thing and you take responsibility for yours. But I think that's worth, worth saying so.

Nicole [01:00:18]: Yeah. Just the last thing I want to add, because it's funny you said the book the courage to be disliked is because I think avoidance need to have the courage to be disliked because the only time they have that is when they blow it up, right? And they like spew all the things out and they seem like, oh, I don't care if they don't like me anymore. But that's because you have not liked them. Like you have distanced yourself from that person enough to just blow up on them and end everything. So of course you don't care what they think anymore because you stopped thinking positively about them. But the reality is if from the very beginning when you had a hard truth to say, and again for like the third time, that doesn't mean be abrasive and rude and whatever, right? But if you have a hard thing to say, you have to be, you have to have the courage that they might not like that. You have to have the courage that they might be upset. You have to have the courage to say that thing anyway if it's that important to you that like it's causing resentment and even they don't think it's important even if they think it's stupid, right? Again, you have to have the courage to put that out there, right? Because that is what's going to build trust. You'll be build trust in yourself. You'll build trust in your relationship because you're actually talking about the things, you're not holding them in and you're not trying to figure them out on your own when you can't figure them out on your own if it involves another person. And so I think the whole courage to be disliked concept is important for Avoidant people. Because like we said, there is a people pleasing tendency in this.

John [01:01:50]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:01:51]: Which has to be perfect. And you know, can't. People can't be upset with them.

John [01:01:57]: Right.

Nicole [01:01:58]: And so you have to. I think the core things, I would say the core things as someone that was super avoidant even if you don't have a secure partner, is that you have to. One, I think you have to work on the proper, like staying in it. You have to really work on staying in it and not running away.

John [01:02:16]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:17]: Like facing it. You have to communicate even when it's hard.

John [01:02:23]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:23]: And have the courage to be disliked. And like understand they might not like that. Understand that they might be upset at you.

John [01:02:30]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:31]: But ultimately, like the third one is probably the most important is to not take things personally.

John [01:02:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:39]: Like you said, like know what is your lane and what is not your lane.

John [01:02:42]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:42]: Like know that I said this and they're entitled to their reaction and they can be upset with me.

John [01:02:48]: Right.

Nicole [01:02:49]: But I know that that's also them projecting this issue onto me as a person, which is what I used to do to people. If you're really self aware.

John [01:02:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:58]: You can realize that you were doing that too, you know, in a way.

John [01:03:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:03]: You know, and so then you won't take it as personally and you can still stay in it even more and actually repair the situation and you've talked about what you need to talk about and you'll be in an even better place once you finish the conversation. One, because you stayed in it. Two, cuz you spoke your truth. And three, because you're not taking it personally.

John [01:03:23]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:24]: And that is you on your way to a secure attachment.

John [01:03:28]: Yeah. Boom.

Nicole [01:03:31]: Mic drop. But it's on a stand, so can't drop it.

John [01:03:35]: Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. I think that. Yeah, I think you summed it up good.

Nicole [01:03:38]: So well, I appreciate your help. I would not be here without you, that is for sure.

John [01:03:43]: Well, I mean I've grown a lot in the process as well as, you know, as I've seen the places where I still need to do work and. And you've helped me with that and see that so.

Nicole [01:03:55]: And believed in me, so I've always believe in you.

John [01:04:00]: All right, well, I guess. Do we have anything?

Nicole [01:04:03]: I don't think so. Unless you can think of something.

John [01:04:06]: I don't think so.

Nicole [01:04:07]: No. Like I said, you've been doing a really great job with our conversations and I've also been trying to approach them also. Better.

John [01:04:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:18]: So, you know, I think we, we Both are obviously the type of people that are really conscious of that.

John [01:04:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:25]: And I feel like if I was doing it the wrong way, you would talk to me about it or if you were upset about the way I brought something up, you would say something. So.

John [01:04:35]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [01:04:37]: Knock on wood, though, because we, we don't want to say it, but.

John [01:04:41]: Yeah, but yeah, that's. I mean, that's the truth. And it's. Yeah. In what we had talked about from the last time. I mean, that's what I've been working on is like to. To make sure that. That that is the case. And I think, you know, just to. To tie it all up. Relationship problems have to be solved in the relationship.

Nicole [01:05:00]: Yes.

John [01:05:00]: They can't be solved by yourself.

Nicole [01:05:02]: No.

John [01:05:02]: And that's the thing is you might think that you need some space and, you know, but you got to solve it with the person.

Nicole [01:05:10]: Yeah.

John [01:05:11]: If you don't do that, no matter what it is, it's not going to get solved.

Nicole [01:05:15]: That's true. I think. Even if you realize it's your personal trait that you need to work on, why wouldn't you work on it with your partner?

John [01:05:23]: Yeah. You have to. Otherwise it's not really going to get solved. So.

Nicole [01:05:26]: Yeah.

John [01:05:27]: All right, well, that's it for this week. If you have a question for us, you can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com or visit the website betterthan perfectpod.com and subscribe on there. We don't. We don't have very many subscribers on betterthan perfectpod.com. i guess everyone subscribed on YouTube, which is great.

Nicole [01:05:44]: But get them right to your email.

John [01:05:46]: Yeah. And then. Yeah, you get the. The new episode every time. All right.

John [00:00:00]: Maybe that's also what people are afraid of and why they're trying to, like, poke at Taylor Swift right now is that they're afraid that she's going to, like, go down this trad white pipeline and drop off the face of the earth, and then what are they going to do without Taylor Swift's music? If you're a fan of hers, you should support her life decisions. Like, it'd be different if she liked a baby or something. Like, leave her alone.

Nicole [00:00:21]: Leave Taylor alone.

John [00:00:23]: Yeah, exactly. Do I need to cry and, like, hide under a sheet or something and be like, leave Taylor Swift alone?

Nicole [00:00:29]: No, but I think. I mean, it just shows that ultimately we're still looking for the same thing. So it doesn't matter if you're a celebrity or whoever. You know, beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the better than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John [00:01:02]: But the real question is, is what does Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce have a better than perfect relationship?

Nicole [00:01:10]: There we go. We got some celebrity drama for this. This week here.

John [00:01:15]: So we don't know the full scoop.

Nicole [00:01:17]: Yeah. Okay. I was gonna say, I don't know who Taylor Swift or whatever his name is. No.

John [00:01:22]: You've at least heard Taylor Swift, and

Nicole [00:01:24]: I saw that game show. What's the game show?

John [00:01:26]: Oh, yeah. Are you smarter than a celebrity? I've been making John watch that.

Nicole [00:01:31]: Yeah.

John [00:01:31]: And he is the host of that. But, yeah. So I don't know a ton about their relationship, obviously, except that, like, it's Taylor Swift and he's a. He's a football player. Like, I feel like I knew more about both of them. Like.

Nicole [00:01:47]: Yeah.

John [00:01:48]: Early 2000s, 2010.

Nicole [00:01:51]: Yeah.

John [00:01:52]: And, like, I kind of dropped off because Taylor Swift, you know, like, she's been making music for a long time. And honestly, I most listened to her music back then.

Nicole [00:02:02]: Yeah.

John [00:02:02]: And then also we were kind of talking about this. Like, Travis Kelsey had this show. I think it was on mtv. It was like a dating show. I forget what it was called, but it was basically like, the Bachelor. But he was the Bachelor, but it was on mtv. And so all these girls came and, like, tried to date him.

Nicole [00:02:20]: Right.

John [00:02:21]: And so, like, having the knowledge of Taylor Swift back then and him back then.

Nicole [00:02:27]: Right.

John [00:02:28]: I definitely would not put the two together. Like, they just don't seem like they go together. However.

Nicole [00:02:37]: Yeah.

John [00:02:37]: Now, like, even when they first got together, I remember thinking, like, this is odd.

Nicole [00:02:44]: Yeah. Okay.

John [00:02:45]: But at the same time, people are

Nicole [00:02:46]: calling it a PR stunt. Right? That's.

John [00:02:48]: I have heard that at times, but. And I guess it's. I wouldn't say that I feel like it's totally not an option.

Nicole [00:02:58]: Right.

John [00:02:59]: Because, like, besides just the things that pop up, like, when they post about each other or something, I don't know how their relationship is. I mean, like, I have seen where she would go to his, like, football games, and he, I think, was in what, at least one of her shows. Like, he came on stage. So, like, they're supporting each other.

Nicole [00:03:21]: Yeah.

John [00:03:21]: That's good.

Nicole [00:03:22]: Yeah.

John [00:03:23]: But I do remember, I think, hearing that people thought that it was like, a PR stunt from, like, the NFL to get, like, girls between that age to watch football. Yeah, I do remember hearing that, but which I'm sure that did actually work because there were, like, tons of shirts made that were like, you know, I'm here to watch Taylor Swift's boyfriend or something. So I'm not saying that it's not maybe somewhat a PR stunt.

Nicole [00:03:50]: Yeah.

John [00:03:51]: Because also still. There's still something about them that, like, just in my mind of how I knew them earlier.

Nicole [00:03:59]: Yeah.

John [00:03:59]: They don't mesh as well as I feel like everyone's talking about. But at the same time, I also think, like, they're both older now. Like, that obviously had to be when they were in, like, their early 20s. So they're, like, they're mid-30s now, so maybe things are different. And I know, like, one of the things that we were, like, kind of discussing is, like, people are upset that, like, she's going more towards, like, a traditional wife sort of vibe.

Nicole [00:04:32]: Right. From a feminist to. Because a lot of her songs about her exploitation. I don't know a lot of her songs, but. But I think that early in her career, she. Her songs were a little bit more on the. What would say, a conservative side. And then mid. Like, mid career, they became more feminist after the Exes and, like, women power. And then. And now she's kind of becoming more of a traditional wife type of.

John [00:05:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:04]: Is that right? I mean, I don't know. You tell me if I'm right.

John [00:05:06]: So I don't know.

Nicole [00:05:09]: Yeah.

John [00:05:10]: Like, I don't know enough about that to say for sure, because I know, like, in the very, very beginning, it was very, like, wholesome and, like, more. Back when she was, like, classified as country.

Nicole [00:05:23]: Yeah, exactly.

John [00:05:24]: It was like. But she was also younger. She was also, like, a teenager. And so it was more that, like, it wasn't.

Nicole [00:05:32]: It wasn't a feminist type of vibe. No, it's more of what, like the ones I've heard recently were. Well, actually on the man hating side.

John [00:05:41]: Supposedly her newest stuff is about, like starting a family and a white picket fence and things like that.

Nicole [00:05:47]: Yeah. So, like, she's going through a life journey.

John [00:05:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:51]: And she's figuring out what she doesn't want because she's dated a lot of people, right?

John [00:05:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:57]: High profile people and a lot of

John [00:05:58]: like, I feel like musicians and people along those lines that are a little bit more on the creative side. Like her.

Nicole [00:06:06]: Yeah.

John [00:06:07]: Which I think is also where the disconnect with him comes in because he's more like football.

Nicole [00:06:12]: Sports, yeah, sure.

John [00:06:13]: Masculine, you know, vibe, which. Not that the other people weren't, but they were definitely more like creative guys. And so that's also too where I feel like the shell shock of like, oh, she's dating a jock now. Like, which, I mean, if you go way back then to one of her songs, she's like, she wears short skirts, I wear T shirts. And it's like, you know, back about like high school. Like, yeah, yeah, she's your captain and I'm in the bleachers. It's like, maybe she's like that all along. And then she went through a phase, which most women do.

Nicole [00:06:49]: She got heartbroken a couple of times. She's like, fuck men like you. Yeah. Pro feminism.

John [00:06:54]: And now she takes the jock again.

Nicole [00:06:57]: To me, that explanation makes the most sense. And also, like, now she's getting older. Right. Because she's 34, 35 and he's 35 or whatever. I think that was the age. And, you know, that's the biological clock starts to tick at that point. Like, if she wants to have kids and wants to have a family, she doesn't have a large amount of time to do that. And then also, like, who's going to give it to you? Like some other rock star type of vagabond. Vega. Vagabond. Vagabond, Vagabond, vagabond, vagabond, vagabond, vagabond type of guy or like a more, you know, like one country football potato type of man. Yeah, like, that's more of a traditional masculine man, you know, And I think it also just kind of brings out like, you know, a lot of people want Taylor Swift to be what they want her to be.

John [00:07:47]: Yeah, right.

Nicole [00:07:48]: Obviously, like, that's what, hey, whenever you have fans, people want you to be the. You Know, as. As, you know, you know, I'm nowhere, not nowhere, an A list celebrity. But I mean, I had a pretty big following and bulldog mindset. And man, when I went off of the market and wasn't a player anymore, people were upset. They're like, that's not John. That's not him. He can't get married. He can't do this. This girl must be a. Whatever, you know, they're upset. Yeah. Because they, because they want me to be the thing that, you know, that. That they know me as.

John [00:08:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:22]: And I can't be anything different. It is the same thing. Like, Taylor Swift has her swifties. They want her to be this.

John [00:08:28]: You know, that they're swifties, that they

Nicole [00:08:30]: want her to be this feminist, like, vision of feminist female empowerment. Right. And all this, these things.

John [00:08:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:37]: So if she goes and now she marries a football guy and wants to be a wife, then that's throws them into a tailspin.

John [00:08:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:47]: But. But in reality, like, that's what most women really want deep down, even if they don't understand it themselves. And maybe they have to find that and figure out, okay, that is, I actually do want a masculine man, and I want to be able to be a woman and be a wife and be a mother and, and, and like, be feminine and I don't have to be in charge and be powerful and all that. Like, I'm capable of it. Obviously, like, she's super, you know, successful.

John [00:09:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:16]: For way more successful than most men will ever dream to be in their life. But that is that really fulfilling or at the deepest level. So. So to me, it's like, yeah, maybe it's a publicity stunt, but maybe it's just like, this is finally her coming to this point of saying, okay, this is what I really want in life. And I don't even care if people are pissed off or not. Like, I want this kind of life.

John [00:09:40]: But it begs the question, do you think she settled because you said her biological clock is ticking? Do you think she settled? Like, because. I don't know, like, again, we don't know their full relationship. So it's really hard because, like, we only see what's in the media. But besides, like, them supporting each other in their things, which is good. That's definitely a good sign.

Nicole [00:10:06]: Yeah,

John [00:10:08]: I just, when I look at them, I just don't know if it looks like their relationship has substance. Does that make sense?

Nicole [00:10:16]: Like, I think I get what you're saying, like, again, I don't know a huge amount, but in this situation. But it Seems like the intellectual capabilities are not matching.

John [00:10:27]: Aligned quite as much.

Nicole [00:10:28]: Which, which again, it's not. I don't know. It's hard. It's always hard when you see someone on tv. I mean, Taylor Swift is obviously quite intellectual, right? Because she writes her. All of her own stuff. She has a notebook where she writes all of her songs. Like most, most people at her level have writers who write their songs. Yeah, right. Or they. The producer purchases the songs from a writer who writes the love songs and writes the things. She writes her own stuff.

John [00:10:58]: Well, and she had a producer, right, Scooter Braun, who like took all her music, her older music, and she re recorded her own versions of them so that he wouldn't get the rights because he wouldn't get it back.

Nicole [00:11:13]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So she's going above and beyond level of intelligence. Right.

John [00:11:18]: So.

Nicole [00:11:19]: But again, it might be a little bit unfair to judge Travis Kelce.

John [00:11:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:24]: You know.

John [00:11:25]: Yeah, we're not saying he's. But also if you play football, you get hit in the head a lot and so you have a lot of concussions and might not be his fault.

Nicole [00:11:32]: Yeah, yeah, but. But again, it also depends on what is she looking for. Right? Like.

John [00:11:37]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:37]: Is it.

John [00:11:38]: But I guess that's what she's looking for.

Nicole [00:11:40]: Is he a masculine dude? Yeah, he's like 6, 3, 6, 4, something like that. I mean, he looks like a big, pretty big hunkin, you know, Dude. Right. I saw him on the. Yeah, that show. Right. He seems like he has a decent sense of humor, like, you know, whatever. Again, maybe not. You know, I mean, he, he is hosting the show that used to be called are you smarter than a fifth grader?

John [00:12:02]: But, but, but he did a pretty good job.

Nicole [00:12:06]: But yeah, but he's a masculine dude, right? Like, he seemed like a cool dude, so maybe that's what. What she wants, you know, so.

John [00:12:12]: But I guess the thing is, like, he's definitely different than her other exes. And I think that's where people think it's like a PR stunt or like it also kind of gives. Are you just trying to date a different type of guy? Because like.

Nicole [00:12:28]: But when a woman like meets a masculine man for the first time and actually has a real relationship with him, she changes a lot, right? Yeah, like so.

John [00:12:38]: Yeah, that's true.

Nicole [00:12:38]: You know, so maybe it is like just that, okay, this is a dude that actually like handles stuff and it's

John [00:12:45]: masculine and she can relax for once. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, maybe you're right. And then maybe that's too why she's leaning more traditional again because she feels safe and feels able to be feminine.

Nicole [00:12:57]: She's also smart, you know, like to see where the wind is blowing. And the wind of relationships is blowing to better than perfect. To modern, traditional relationship. Exactly. It is blown to modern, traditional relationships, though. Like, it is blowing more towards traditional. Getting back to just like we said in the last episode about the end of the, the situationships.

John [00:13:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:21]: It's because people want to actually have something and build something. They're tired of all of this stuff. It's like the freedom and security. They want security. They want to have the man be the man, the woman be the woman. Right. You know, or if you're, you know, if you're in a gay relationship, a masculine pole. And I mean, I, I feel like the, the, the gay community understands it better than, you know, they're not offended by. Because they get it. They're like, okay, yeah, you gotta have a dominant and a sub. Like, you gotta have a top and a bottom. Right. Like, they, they have the terminology for it because they understand how important that dynamic is in a relationship. So it doesn't even matter if you're, if you're gay or straight. It's a matter of, like, having that polarity. And for most people, most people are straight. It's gonna be a man being masculine and a woman being feminine, a man being dominant, a woman being submissive. Like, those are the ways that, that work. And it's not just from a biological standpoint. It a. Like a, A, A polarity standpoint of like, laws of the universe, like how things attract.

John [00:14:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:24]: So.

John [00:14:25]: Well, and I feel like it is somewhat biological in the sense of, like, being feminine is more natural feeling to women and being masculine is more natural feeling to men. But no, you're a thousand percent right. It doesn't have to be. It's a polarity. It's not like.

Nicole [00:14:39]: Right.

John [00:14:39]: The cookie cutter of like, man and woman, masculine and feminine sort of thing. Because I want that polarity because I

Nicole [00:14:45]: think even sometimes people like, oh, well, it's just old f. Like we're not religious. We're not coming from a religious standpoint. Right. You know, even though our, our system, our values and relationship may. May move more towards the conservative direction. Right. I always say libertarian, but like, it's, it's not coming from that. And it, and it's not like, oh, has to be heterosexual couples. Like, it's, it's more of like, how does the dynamic of the relationship work, which is the masculine and the feminine and that you have to have that. And so, but, but I think that's where, you know, that's where, where things are going. Like I said, I think she's smart enough to know that like, okay, right now, yeah, maybe more of her fan base is, is liking the feminist stuff, but I think she can kind of see also that the direction is shifting that way and she's going to need to start creating music and content that appeals to that on. So she's going to get left behind because she's made it a long time. I mean, her career has been really right. She's been like number one in terms of, I think for live performance. Like her tickets go for more than any other live performers tickets. I, I, I think I know that amount.

John [00:15:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:00]: You know, and so it's because she's good at reading the, like, because she's shifted multiple times.

John [00:16:05]: Yeah. That's why it's the Eras tour. It's different eras of her music.

Nicole [00:16:09]: Yeah.

John [00:16:10]: Yeah. Well, speaking along, like heterosexual and homosexual, what about the allegations that she's a lesbian and he's just a beard cover up a lavender marriage? Well, no, I think. Does that mean that he's also Gay marriage?

Nicole [00:16:29]: I think that's what it means.

John [00:16:30]: But okay, well, that she, but he's

Nicole [00:16:32]: the COVID He's a beard.

John [00:16:33]: Yeah. They call it a beard.

Nicole [00:16:36]: Yeah.

John [00:16:36]: Okay. Like, so I don't get that vibe from her, like she's a girl's girl, like from her music before. But to me, it just, I don't, I don't feel like she comes across like that she's attracted to women. I think that she is a girl's girl, like she's cares about women.

Nicole [00:16:59]: I feel like also, again, biologically, we know from evolutionary biology that women are more flexible in their sexuality that they could be attracted like women by default. A lot of women are bisexual. Like, just they can be turned on by men or women. Right. Men are not that way in general. Right. So that's just from evolutionary biology. Again, it doesn't mean that every woman is like that or that there's also like a conditioning. It's just like from a biological perspective. Right. So in the way that the idea they do this test is that they have, they have these sensors that can detect moisture. Right. And they hook it up to the appropriate parts and then they show men and women, because men and women have the same, you know, men also have a moisture production when they're aroused. Okay.

John [00:17:55]: I love your science.

Nicole [00:17:56]: I'm trying to keep, I mean, I could give this, but I'M trying to keep it, keep it as PG as we can, right? So, so anyway, so they hook up the appropriate parts, right? And then they show them pornographic images. They show them images of naked men, naked women, people having sex, animals having sex. And okay, this is the thing that's going to throw you. So for men that are, say they're straight, the, the images of women and humans having sex are the things that turned them on.

John [00:18:31]: Images of women and humans, of women

Nicole [00:18:34]: having sex and humans having sex. Oh, are the things that turn on like at a physical level, not necessarily at a mental level, right? A biological male who, who claims to be heterosexual. When they test it on the gay man, it's what you would expect. It's, it's other men, it's, it's, it's humans having sex is gay sex, right? When they test it on a woman, all the things work. Animals.

John [00:19:04]: I mean, I guess that's why the books are the way that they are, right?

Nicole [00:19:08]: Animals, humans. That is gay, whatever, Terrifying sexuality again. Now they also then talk to these people and they're like, were you turned on or not? Now the women who are heterosexual say, oh yeah, I was turned on by the humans having sex and by the hot guys, right? So, and then obviously they asked the men and you know, similar, like what you would expect, right? So at a mental level, women aren't lying about it. They're not like seeing these. I mean, there were some that were. Had more bisexual, like at a mental level, but at a physical arousal level, subconscious women were turned on by any kind of sex at all.

John [00:19:53]: Like, so you would think that men would be that way.

Nicole [00:19:56]: You would think so. But men have a specific. They're attracted to men or they're attracted to women generally, right? It's very rare for men to be actually bisexual. It's, it's, it's usually some other kind of thing that's going on there. So what you can see, I mean, you see it with gay men, right? How they act like you can kind of. You don't get the impression that they would be attracted to women too. You know, like, that's in general, right? Whereas women who are bisexual or who are lesbian, many times it's not as, it's not as clear, right? It could be. So all that to say that I think a large portion or large part of when a woman is super feminist, right? You kind of see this where it's almost like she convinces herself that men suck and that maybe I should date women, right? It's like, again, I'm not saying that it's. That there's no biological component at all to this or preferences or things like that. But I am saying that the more that a woman is like, kind of has a man hating type of mindset, the more that she's like, okay, well, I could, like, I might have preferred sexually mental, but I could also go with women because they're better companions anyway. They're better in all these areas. So I can, I can be sexually turned on by a woman too, whereas a man. That doesn't happen. So I think I'm trying to think where I rabbit trail.

John [00:21:25]: I don't know. This was.

Nicole [00:21:27]: Oh, it was, it was the, the Taylor Swift thing. So what I'm saying is that a lot of people, feminist, a lot of people probably thought like, and she may have even been, you know, been somewhat bisexual in that way because of that whole idea, like, if you're at a point in, in your life, a lot of women, when they're at a point in life where they're man hating, where they're whatever, for whatever reason and are very much on the phone there, that they start to say things like, oh, well, I should date women, right? Because.

John [00:21:59]: But I've never even heard her say those things that I'm like, is there something that she's said or done?

Nicole [00:22:05]: People are inferring it by the lyrics that like, she fits that, that group of, you know, that she appears like the same as, as women who might be bisexual or lesbian, that maybe that's what she really is and they're wanting her to belong to their group. You see what I'm saying?

John [00:22:27]: That makes more sense.

Nicole [00:22:28]: They're projecting it onto her.

John [00:22:29]: I mean, I've heard her stuff and I've never once, like, was like, maybe she likes women. Like, I don't know. That just hasn't crossed my mind. But when you hear, come across that

Nicole [00:22:40]: way, when you hear lyrics that are super man hating from like, what. There's like some of her, like, I don't, I don't know any songs. So.

John [00:22:51]: But then how are you saying they're Superman hating? Because, like, do you know.

Nicole [00:22:54]: Because I've heard the, I've heard the songs right? When we're, when we're in the car or something. Like, I've heard the, the lyrics.

John [00:23:02]: Yeah. I'm trying to just. I can't.

Nicole [00:23:03]: I've heard some of the ones that like, Sophia likes a lot. Right. And I'm like, I don't know if I like this song so much.

John [00:23:10]: From Taylor Swift.

Nicole [00:23:11]: Yeah, from Taylor Swift. That's like.

John [00:23:14]: Yeah, I'm just saying that I. Yeah, I can't think of any man hating ones, honestly.

Nicole [00:23:20]: Yeah. Maybe it's more just like on the. On the very feminist side of it. And then I'm interpreting that way perhaps.

John [00:23:29]: But I just thought you had stuff in your mind because you kept bringing it up. And I'm like, over here thinking. I'm like, what?

Nicole [00:23:35]: No, I'd have to research hating and see what it is. But. But I think.

John [00:23:40]: Well, maybe there's one where she's like, I never trust a narcissist, but they love me. But that's not like man hating. That's like talking about narcissists.

Nicole [00:23:48]: I know there was some. There was. I. I can't think of it.

John [00:23:52]: But, you know, maybe there are some that are a little bit more. That are more.

Nicole [00:23:56]: They're more.

John [00:23:56]: But they're still not like, of lyrics.

Nicole [00:23:58]: Right.

John [00:23:59]: As bad as. I think some other.

Nicole [00:24:01]: Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, but I think that it either. I think some people maybe grouped her in and said, oh, well, she must be part of our club. And now they're feeling a little betrayed because they're like, well, wait a minute.

John [00:24:14]: I thought this is a man.

Nicole [00:24:15]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

John [00:24:16]: I thought we didn't like an American man.

Nicole [00:24:18]: Exactly. I didn't. I thought we didn't like men. And now you're, like, dating a man. Like a football player, man. Like football pro maga. Like, what? Yeah, like, that's. I think that's what. Where the outrage is coming from.

John [00:24:30]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, like you said, like, people go through so many different stages of life, and she's obviously gone through so many different stages, and I think it's just kind of like, even me being like, they don't seem like they go together. Like, I don't know her. Like, maybe she's always like that.

Nicole [00:24:50]: Yeah.

John [00:24:51]: Sort of guy. But she was dating other guys that she thought she should be more attracted to. Like, we don't really know. So, like, it's not even fair for us to be, like, judging. I'm trying not to, like, judge. I'm just giving my honest, like, opinion about how it outwardly appears. But, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with her making this choice. And if she's happy and, I mean, she's writing songs about it, she seems like she's happy. Yeah. Then that's all that matters. I think people, too. Maybe it is exactly like you said that people are assuming these things. Like, especially, like, you Know, really feminist people, they're like, oh, she's not a feminist anymore. Because I also saw, like, at one point, people were saying that Taylor Swift's like, maga or something.

Nicole [00:25:41]: Yeah.

John [00:25:42]: Now. And, like, are they just saying that because she's dating, like, a football player? Like.

Nicole [00:25:47]: Right.

John [00:25:48]: You know what I mean? Like, people are kind of just. You can't even really trust what. What Even information that we know because it's coming from media or other people.

Nicole [00:25:58]: Yeah, exactly. You can't really.

John [00:25:59]: You know, like, we're never gonna.

Nicole [00:26:00]: All I know is everyone. Everyone. Everyone was on Epstein island all the. With your maga, your whatever liberal you're on. Your. All your people were there. My people, your people, everyone's people. They all were on that damn island. So that's. It's not good.

John [00:26:19]: Yeah, well, we're not getting into that.

Nicole [00:26:21]: No, I'm just saying, like, it's. It's sort of. It's almost like. I do feel like just as a little sidetrack, it's sort of like if you're really into politics and you just love to, like, be on your side and the other. It's like football. Like, it's the same thing. It's like teams. Right. Like, that's how politics is, is teams. Right. And then. And now you found out, like, the Epstein kind of ruins the whole thing for you because you're like, damn. Like, they're all up. Like, they're all. Were involved with this. So now you can't really root for anyone. So. So just get back to your normal life then. And, like, actually, you know, people live their life. Exactly. I think it's a good thing. It should. I mean, it's not. It's not going to actually get rid of the thing, but, like, yeah, whoever you are, like, whatever you're rooting for, they were on the island, so there you go.

John [00:27:14]: Yeah, well, we're not gonna get into politics, but. Yeah, like. Because that's a whole different can of worms. No, no, but I'm just saying that I feel like people are judging her more harshly, like you said, because she's going against, like, her typical. But it's like at the same time, we do things out of our typical all the time, and we don't have people around to judge us like they do. So if they're happy, this is their choice. It doesn't matter if they're in a real relationship, a fake relationship or whatever. It's none of our business. Yeah, but, you know, like I said, going back a lot of her first Stuff was very, like, wholesome. And, you know, she probably grew up that way. And, like, if you think about country music, which is where she started.

Nicole [00:28:00]: Yeah. Country is. This definitely is a super conservative. Yeah.

John [00:28:04]: And it's more like masculine, feminine, you know, sort of vibe, traditional vibe. And so, you know, if that's how she broke into this, then she probably does have some parts of her that wants that traditional lifestyle.

Nicole [00:28:17]: Right.

John [00:28:18]: In some way. She'll never have actually a traditional lifestyle because she's so successful. Like, I'm sure she makes more money than he does.

Nicole [00:28:25]: Yeah.

John [00:28:26]: But it's like. But also, at this point, is she still going to make music? She might take a break like Hilary Duff did. Hilary Duff's coming back. You know, Hilary Duff is not the same as Taylor Swift because Hilary Duff didn't have as much, like, albums and things like that in between. But I mean, like you said, Taylor Swift's at an age where she probably does want to start a family, if that's something that she wants to do with her life. And so she might go radio silent and not put out music for a while, or she might pull a Rihanna and not put out music anymore until one day, hopefully, Rihanna will be like, hey, here's some music. Because that's what everybody's been waiting for for like, 10 years now, it seems like.

Nicole [00:29:06]: Yeah. That I have no idea about that.

John [00:29:08]: I know. That's why I'm bringing it up. But, you know, and maybe that's also what people are afraid of and why they're trying to, like, poke at Taylor Swift right now, is that they're afraid that she's gonna, like, go down this trad wife pipeline.

Nicole [00:29:23]: Yeah.

John [00:29:24]: And drop off the face of the earth and then what are they gonna do without Taylor Swift?

Nicole [00:29:28]: Yeah.

John [00:29:29]: Music and, you know, like, being a fan of hers, which. It's like, if you're a fan of hers, you should support her life decisions.

Nicole [00:29:36]: Yeah.

John [00:29:37]: That's how I feel about it. It's like, what kind of fan are you? If you, like, she does something and then you're like, that's how. Like, it'd be different if she liked a baby or something. Like, man, why are you smacking babies? Well, that's not the same.

Nicole [00:29:50]: Remember that movie about the one Latin singer who got killed by her fan?

John [00:29:55]: Oh, Selena.

Nicole [00:29:56]: Yeah. Like, that's what fans do. They're just like.

John [00:29:59]: I mean, but look. Well, then maybe if your fan, Taylor Swift, listening to this. Leave her alone. Yeah, exactly. Do I need to cry and, like, hide under a sheet or something and be like, leave Taylor Swift alone.

Nicole [00:30:14]: No, but I think. I mean, like I said, like, it's. It just. It just shows that. That ultimately, like, we're still looking for the same thing, so it doesn't matter if you're a celebrity or whoever, you know, And. And I don't see anything. It's different. Like, we did. We talked a little bit about the Akash situation with his wife, and, like, there was clearly stuff that was, like, messed up there. Right. So it's like, I don't see anything wrong here. I don't know.

John [00:30:41]: She's not disrespecting him, and he's not disrespecting her. They're just supporting each other.

Nicole [00:30:46]: Right. That's why people have such an issue. Well, and too, like, it's just like, there's nothing wrong. Like, give me some dirt to be like, okay, he's saying this or she's this. It's this.

John [00:30:56]: Yeah, well, his brother has a podcast and said that they, like, never fight, which is not a good thing either, but.

Nicole [00:31:04]: Well, yeah, but never.

John [00:31:05]: Maybe they don't think fight. Like, we don't think fight. We wouldn't say a fight.

Nicole [00:31:09]: People would say, we never fight.

John [00:31:11]: Yeah, right.

Nicole [00:31:12]: Because we. We don't really fight fight.

John [00:31:14]: We're not, like, attacking.

Nicole [00:31:15]: We have disagreements and. But that's not infrequent, too, so.

John [00:31:19]: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there was something I was gonna say, but you were talking and I lost it in my brain. What was it? It's gone.

Nicole [00:31:32]: It'll. It'll come. It'll come back to you.

John [00:31:36]: Will it? Oh, okay.

Nicole [00:31:38]: There you go. See?

John [00:31:39]: Thank you. Thank you for manifesting that.

Nicole [00:31:40]: Yeah.

John [00:31:41]: I think, too, part of it is that she's lived such a, like, extravagant career. Like, she's done so much stuff. Like, she is, in a way, like, an artist that, like, no one can duplicate because she's done things that people have not done. Yeah. Yeah, essentially.

Nicole [00:32:00]: Yeah.

John [00:32:00]: And like, even her proposal picture that she posted, and it was like, your English teacher and your gym teacher are getting married. Right. To me, that just made me feel like she's trying to go live a more normal life. Like, yeah, she started out normal, obviously, and then as a teen, she got popular, and she's making all this music, and then she just completely blows up.

Nicole [00:32:23]: Right?

John [00:32:23]: And it makes sense to me that, like, maybe she wants to get back to, like, normal. Like, maybe she wants to, like, move somewhere to, like, Wyoming or something, and then, like, they kind of drop off and they live, like, a normal life. I mean, it'll never be fully normal because at this point, everyone knows who Taylor Swift is. But, and sorry, Taylor Swift, if you're moving to Wyoming. But, but, but people do forget that,

Nicole [00:32:48]: like in five years, like, I mean, not totally totally, but yeah, you know, like, look at Paris Hilton. Right?

John [00:32:53]: Like I say, well, she's, she's doing things. But like, I'm just saying that that might be her next move because also, like, just captioning that just gives like small town vibes to me and like just wanting to live a happy, normal life.

Nicole [00:33:10]: Yeah.

John [00:33:10]: And so that could also be what's happening is that she's lived this crazy life and she's only 35. And so, I mean, if she did retire or like, want to focus on having a family, that makes sense to me.

Nicole [00:33:25]: Well, it also, I think the bigger story here is that it's kind of the proof that feminism ultimately fails for women. Right. Like, because if you think about. I'll tell you why. Because she reached the top of success of boss babe. Right? She highest level of boss babe. You can't get higher level than boss babe. That.

John [00:33:45]: Yeah, like Taylor Swift. Okay, Final boss.

Nicole [00:33:48]: Yeah, Final boss babe. Right. Okay. And she's, and I'm not gonna say that she was like depressed or like unhappy, but she wasn't fulfilled. She was, There was something.

John [00:34:01]: She's missing something. Right.

Nicole [00:34:02]: And so this is what she. So it kind of tells you, like, whatever you're trying to aspire. If you think that following this path of hyper independence and I don't need a man and I don't need, you know, like, and I just need to be a boss babe is going to get you to a point of happiness. Well, Taylor's authority went to the top of it and looked down and was like, nope, this ain't it. And then she's saying, I want something different. So it'll save you a big journey of wasting your time if you already see someone who's already done it and ta da. You know, and, and look at what they're doing now, you know, again. So I think that's a good, just a good lesson to learn when you, when you see someone who's already been down that path and they made it final boss babe level and now.

John [00:34:51]: Well, I think ultimately everybody wants love. And it's like, especially women. I think men do too, but women, it's really no surprise, like, even the women who act like they don't, they do.

Nicole [00:35:04]: Yeah.

John [00:35:04]: And that's also why Taylor Swift dated so many people. Like, she's been looking for Love?

Nicole [00:35:08]: Yeah.

John [00:35:09]: Like, she's been dating people, and like you said, like, no amount of success could fill the void of, like, wanting to share her life with somebody.

Nicole [00:35:17]: Yeah.

John [00:35:18]: And so instead of, like, kidding yourself and being like, I don't need a man, I just need to work harder or whatever, like, be honest with yourself. Like, be honest that you want to find a partner to spend your life with. And, like, that doesn't mean that you have to be a traditional wife, but there should be, like, you said that polarity.

Nicole [00:35:40]: Yeah.

John [00:35:41]: And honestly, I feel like if you found somebody that was masculine, you would feel more safe to be feminine, and then you would also feel better. You wouldn't feel as stressed or, like, you have to handle all the things on your own because that does do something to a woman. Like, we cannot handle stress the same way that men can, because hormonally, we're not on the same playing field as men. Like.

Nicole [00:36:09]: Right.

John [00:36:09]: Men wake up in their days, look the exact same. Like.

Nicole [00:36:13]: Yeah.

John [00:36:13]: The way that their hormones are.

Nicole [00:36:15]: Yeah.

John [00:36:15]: Ours is like a roller coaster at Six Flags. So it's like, it's not going to be the same. And, like, I'm not saying that you can't take care of yourself as a woman on your own, but every woman that is on her own would like somebody there to, like, share the experience with and the stress with and, like, have somebody to support them.

Nicole [00:36:36]: Yeah. A hormonal trip sitter.

John [00:36:40]: A what?

Nicole [00:36:41]: Hormonal trip sitter.

John [00:36:43]: A hormonal trip sitter.

Nicole [00:36:44]: Yeah. So you can just, like, hormone out

John [00:36:48]: and then the guy handles it while

Nicole [00:36:50]: you're like, just like, if you take a psychedelic substance, you have a trip sitter. You know, it's like a.

John [00:36:55]: A hormone. What you did there.

Nicole [00:36:57]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but, but, but, but. But I'm joking, but also serious, because.

John [00:37:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:03]: It's the freedom of, like, not having to hold it all together and manage all the things all the time.

John [00:37:10]: Yeah. For both people.

Nicole [00:37:12]: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

John [00:37:13]: Honestly, like, for both people. Like, there are things that I take over that you don't have to do and things that you definitely take over that I don't have to do. And that helps both of us, and then it also evens it out so that you're not super stressed out because you're doing every single thing.

Nicole [00:37:29]: Yeah.

John [00:37:30]: And then I'm not stressed out because I'm doing everything well.

Nicole [00:37:32]: And it's like, we. We. We haven't talked about it in a while, but I used to tell you a lot that a lot of the things that Stress you out. They're no problem for me. So it's like these things that are immensely stressful to you, that's no problem to me. Like, I can. I could take on all that load. Like, you. You worry about, you know, about taking care of me and I'll take care of everything else. Like, because those things don't. It doesn't have that effect on me. Like, I need the. The replenishment from you giving your love to me and taking care of me. And that gives me all the energy to take on most of the world and all those. Those things that would be stressful to you.

John [00:38:13]: Yeah. So, no, it makes a lot of sense.

Nicole [00:38:15]: Yeah.

John [00:38:17]: But, yeah, I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, like, if you watch this and you were like, I wanted them to figure out all the Taylor Swift, Travis Kelsey things. I mean, I think hopefully now you did figure some things out and figured out that it's none of your business. It's not our business. But, yeah, from the things that we do see, even though it's probably not even 20 of the picture, like, it's probably so small, like, even less than 20 of what we see from them is, like, what actually is going on. Like, we have no idea that, you know, at the end of the day, everybody wants love, including him. Like, he had his own. I mean, we talked a lot about Taylor Swift, but he had his own dating show.

Nicole [00:39:01]: Yeah.

John [00:39:01]: Where he did date the girl that was on it, at least for a while. And I don't know if that's the girl that's been, like, throwing shade at Taylor Swift or what. But, like, he was also in a different time of his life.

Nicole [00:39:13]: Right.

John [00:39:13]: And, you know, I mean, he's not at a age where he's probably feeling like he has to get married.

Nicole [00:39:22]: Right.

John [00:39:22]: But he obviously must like Taylor Swift enough where he's going to take himself off the market at 35.

Nicole [00:39:27]: Yeah.

John [00:39:28]: And want to be married to her.

Nicole [00:39:30]: Yeah.

John [00:39:31]: So, you know, like, he's also grown, she's grown. We don't know at the end of the day what really goes on between them, you know, but if that's what they want, then that's what they want. And she's making music about wanting this sort of lifestyle. Like.

Nicole [00:39:49]: Yeah.

John [00:39:49]: I think the real thing is because, like, I'm not here to. On feminism or anything either. I think that extremes of anything are bad. But I think, though, the key is that if you think you're a feminist and you're shitting on her for her wanting to live this life Right. Then you're just not a good person because, like, that's not. Yeah, well, that's. And you're definitely not a good feminist. Right?

Nicole [00:40:13]: The feminine choice.

John [00:40:14]: Yeah. That's what it should be. And I should.

Nicole [00:40:16]: It's what it should be. Yeah.

John [00:40:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:17]: Well.

John [00:40:18]: And that's why I'm like, I'm not going to shit on feminism, because that is what it's supposed to be.

Nicole [00:40:22]: Right.

John [00:40:23]: But again, it's, like, become extreme, and it's women policing what other women are doing. Like, women trying to tell women how to be a woman.

Nicole [00:40:34]: Right?

John [00:40:34]: And it's like, that's not. That's not what we're here to do. That's not. Like, we didn't. We didn't get rights and things as a woman to come out of, like, not having to have a husband. And like, now we can do stuff to. Now we're preventing other women from doing what they want to do. Like, that's not what the whole thing was about. Like, women were upset that they were being controlled by men, but now women are controlling other women. Like, that's not.

Nicole [00:41:01]: No, it just. And it's even that, like. Like, we do on the podcast is it's like, you could do whatever the you want.

John [00:41:08]: Right?

Nicole [00:41:09]: But if you want to have a relationship like we have and you like this, then we'll show you how to do it.

John [00:41:15]: Right, But. Right.

Nicole [00:41:16]: We're not telling you you have to do it. No, you could do whatever the you want to do whatever you wanted. Totally fine. But if you want what we have, there is a way to have it. And you can't just make up whatever rules you want and have this.

John [00:41:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:28]: Like.

John [00:41:29]: Or be like, I'm not going to do that. They said to do this, but I'm not going to do that.

Nicole [00:41:32]: Right.

John [00:41:32]: They said to not yell at each other, but we're going to still yell. And, like, that's not going to get

Nicole [00:41:36]: you, because we have figured out this thing, and if you find this valuable and you're like, okay, I like this. I want to have this kind of a depth of a relationship, then this is the way to have. Then you do have to listen to what we're saying.

John [00:41:49]: Right? But if you don't, then which Taylor Swift wants it? So there you go. Yeah, he's a rally.

Nicole [00:41:55]: But that. But I think that's the important thing to understand this, because it's like, sometimes also like, oh, well, you're telling people how they should be or what, are judging people? No, it's like, we're not judging. We're saying what. What fits with. With what we. What we know that works from a female, male. Dynamic, modern tradition. Yeah. For modern, traditional relationship. Like, this is how this system works together, since we invented the modern traditional relationship right here on this podcast.

John [00:42:25]: Well, and it's more than just the podcast, right? Like, people in our lives experience the type of dynamic that we have and the type of relationship that we have. And, like, we're trying to show people

Nicole [00:42:37]: figure out all the rules for it. Like, how do you actually, like, produce it?

John [00:42:43]: You know, because it's like, what do

Nicole [00:42:45]: we do instead of you looking at these old couples that are holding hands and, like, I wish we could be like that. It's like, well, wishing. How about a guidebook instead of a wishing? Right. And that's what we're doing. We're trying to, like, dissect it and be like, okay, well, this is how you actually create that.

John [00:43:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:01]: Instead of you just wishing and hoping that that will happen. Because, you know, we're seeing it, right. Yeah.

John [00:43:08]: And we're showing you all of it. The good, the ugly, the, you know, complicated. Because we want to help people, like, like I said, like, people in our lives experience our connection in person. And this is, like, the closest thing that we can do to, like, help people realize their type of relationship we. That we have and that it's different and that other people can have it. Because we've also built this, like. Yes, there was an instant sort of, like, connection there.

Nicole [00:43:42]: Yeah.

John [00:43:42]: But we've. If you've listened to our episodes, we've been through some. Yeah, I've already said so. I might as well just say we've been through some. And so, like, this is not sunshine Rainbows. We're not coming on here acting like, oh, everything's wonderful. And, like, you know, like, Travis Kelsey's brother, saying they don't fight. Like, that could mean that they don't fight the way that most people do. They don't attack each other. They don't yell at each other. But I'm sure they've been through something, and if they haven't, I'm sure they will maybe listen to this podcast and figure out how to. How to deal with it. But. But no, seriously, like, there'll be a

Nicole [00:44:21]: song, a song coming out called Better Than Perfect. Like, stole it from us.

John [00:44:29]: She watches it. But no, you know, they seem happy.

Nicole [00:44:33]: Yeah.

John [00:44:35]: Again, we're a little biased because we're traditional, but I think if people looked inside, they probably want a more traditional relationship than they think they do. And we have a modern, traditional relationship.

Nicole [00:44:46]: And so, I mean, that's the fairy tale ending. I think there's some. She has about a fairy tale ending. Is there?

John [00:44:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:53]: Is that right?

John [00:44:54]: I think it's one of the newer.

Nicole [00:44:55]: There we go.

John [00:44:57]: You do know something. But. Yeah, but no. Yeah. So.

Nicole [00:45:03]: All right, well, I think we. Yeah, we can wrap it here. We don't really have anything for this week because we already talked about what

John [00:45:10]: we were going through, but.

Nicole [00:45:12]: Yeah, but.

John [00:45:13]: But leave Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce alone. They're just trying to be in love or whatever they're doing. It's fine. They're adults. Let them do it.

Nicole [00:45:23]: And if you're new to the podcast, if you came here as a swiftie, what we talk about is modern, traditional relationships. Basically, what we said, like how to. How to build a relationship like ours where the man is a man and a woman is a woman, might not seem appealing to you at first. But hey, if you go back through our episode catalog and you give it a listen, maybe it'll grow on you. If not, that's fine. We'll still be here. We'll still be making episodes. But yeah, give us a follow, a subscribe share. Yeah, and check out the betterthanperfectpod.com website to get the latest episodes. You can subscribe on there too and see show notes and links. Anything we talk about. It's all AI ified and put into there. So we are on the AIs.

John [00:46:14]: We haven't done a book in a while.

Nicole [00:46:16]: Oh, yeah, we gotta do. I thought you're saying we have to write. We have to do. Write a book. Well, but yes, better than perfect. Volume one. So. All right, we'll see you guys next week. Take care.

John [00:46:29]: Bye.