John: Women need to find the value in being feminine again. I was masculine, you out-masculined me, and finally put me in my feminine, and now I'm like, gosh, I just feel so much better. That doesn't mean that I don't get sensitive and overwhelmed and still have emotions, but it's nowhere near when I was in survival mode.

Nicole: Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fall. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John: There you go. See, we're a team.

Nicole: That's right, that's right. I did that just so you could fill it in because you know, that's how we roll.

John: So, that is how we roll. So, you got any crazy comments to start the half of the podcast off with today?

Nicole: I don't think I got any crazy. Did we get any?

John: We did get, remember we got some comment on one of the videos. Did we address it though on a different podcast episode? One of them we did, the guy who was like, yeah, that long one.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But well, the guy that emailed me, right. But yeah, but there was, I mean, the, we had some romantic ones on the how guys can be romantic, and the biggest thing was just a bunch of whiny babies crying about, oh, it's not fair, or I think the big thing I would say is that guys say that they're like, okay, well, if as soon as you start showing your feelings to a woman, then she loses interest, right. So, it's like as soon as you, so that was their experience, and that's why they're crying about the romantic thing. They're like, okay, you can't be romantic.

Nicole: Does she lose interest because you're not supporting her emotionally? So, she's like, why do I need to support you emotionally?

John: Well, I think, what I was saying, or you think from the very beginning, like the first time you do it?

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. But the problem, what I was saying, I think I replied back to him too. I said that you're confusing showing your emotions with being needy, or you know, or like basically with, yeah, with being needy. That's what it really came down to. It's like, you know, there's a difference between showing your emotions or like, you know, not having emotional control as a man.

John: Right. So, it's like, well, because if a man shows lack of control anywhere, right, then I feel like that seems kind of unstable for a woman.

Nicole: Exactly. And as a woman, we are emotional, so we often feel unstable, and plus, we go through a lot of fluctuation in our hormones during our cycle of the month in general. And so, if we feel unstable and we're trying to gain stability, and then we have this other unstable person, that just feels chaotic. And I think that's what's happening a lot of times when guys have this perception that if they show a woman emotion or show that they care about a woman, let's say, that a woman loses interest because a lot of times that is true. But the reason why is, as you've seen me put into my YouTube videos where you are that guy, and you write that love letter, you know, because you're, you're trying to get something, you're, you're needy, it's desperate need, it's not controlled energy. It's not about you sharing your feelings, it's about the fact that you don't have control, like you, you know, and you want something.

John: Yeah. Well, I think it too, like the opposite of that would be when women maybe sleep with a man too soon, thinking, okay, I'll give him what he wants, right. He wants this, and then he loses interest in her. It that's like the female side, I feel like, you know, if a woman does that too quickly, then she's like, why doesn't he like me? I gave him what he wanted. And then men are the same way. They're like, why doesn't she like me? I told her how I feel. Isn't that what women want? And they do want that, but like you said, it's the control part. It's that there's a way to express your emotions in the correct way.

Nicole: I think that's probably the thing because when you express your emotions, it is vulnerable, and it feels unstable naturally. But if you express them in like a chaotic and sort of maybe not needy like you said, but I'm thinking of like, you know, irrational or something that just feels like you don't know what this person's going to do, that's scary to a woman.

John: Yeah, like is he complaining about this thing, and he's going to complain about it for the rest of his life and not do anything about it, or is he like going to do something crazy because he's like having a midlife crisis or something, you know. Like if she feels like she has no idea what this guy's going to do in regards to his feelings rather than just like being vulnerable and expressing it and leaning on a woman, then that's when a woman's like, whoa, well, you're supposed to be the rock, you're supposed to be the man, you're supposed to be the logical one, which doesn't mean you don't have emotions, but if you can't stay like grounded and firm and right in that.

Nicole: And I think you hit on the main thing, is like the right way to express your emotions, right. Because it's like what I was going to say, but now, well, I'll still say that, but is that the neediness part comes from having the expectation, wanting something, right. So, what guys experience and what they're confusing is that if you share your emotions with a woman because you want her to like you back, if you're like, I love you so much, I'm so attracted to you, right, and you're like, I'm just being vulnerable, right. Yeah, but you're trying to get something back, that's why you're doing it. If you can do that same thing, if you can express those ideas, how you feel about a person, but you're not expecting, you're not trying to get that person to like you or to respond in a certain way to get their validation or approval, then it comes across as more romantic, and it's not a problem.

John: But I think what you said actually, as I was thinking about that, even makes more sense, which is, you know, I could tell you about my day, right, and I could be like, I was, yeah, I got pissed off today. I was just like, this guy, you know, we were supposed to do the deal, and he just pissed me off, right. Like I can tell you like that, or I can be like, oh, just, I'm just so pissed off. Like, I don't know what to do. Like, this guy, he's just like, you know what I'm saying? It's like a ticking time bomb in the second one, right. Both of them, I'm expressing the same emotion. I'm telling you about my, I'm sharing my feelings, right, but one of them, I'm doing in the right way where I have mastery over the emotion. The other way, it's controlling me.

Nicole: Exactly, and you're spewing it all over me. So, even when guys are expressing this in love, sometimes they're coming across as that one instead of the one like the romantic poet that is declaring his love.

John: Opposed to just spazzing out, it's the control of the emotions, not not having emotions or not expressing them. Because a lot of guys are afraid. They're like, "Oh, as soon as you show a woman emotions, that's what they say they want, but then she leaves," right? Which has been their experience and which has proven to be true for them because they're not understanding it. So, they're just playing it safe. They're like, "Okay, what I figured out is I don't show a woman emotions, and then she won't freak out." And it's working. So, they bottle up all their emotions, and then they explode anyway. And what ends up happening, and they repeat it over and over, is they finally say, "Okay, I feel close enough to this woman. I'm going to share my emotions with her," which they haven't learned how to do correctly. And then she does leave, and they're like, "Oh, see, this is how it works. You just cannot have emotions as a man. You cannot share your emotions; otherwise, this is what happens." And that's where they got to that point, but it's because they don't understand it.

Nicole: So, that's true. Well, and I guess, I forgot about Tetris lover who said we look like we're interrogating each other and there's no chemistry. And what else did he say? The way we do this looks like a serial killer documentary or something.

John: Oh, did he say that much?

Nicole: No, I think I made that part up. But you wanted to look like a serial killer documentary?

John: Yeah, I'm like, "Okay, like what?" Someone else actually commented on the same thing and was like, "No, it's showing the different perspectives of the partners." And I'm like, "Yeah, thank you." Like Tetris lover over here just wants to rain on everybody's parade. I mean, I'm not sure what he expected. He was like, "Look up how to do a podcast, bros." I mean, he didn't say "bros," but yeah, I don't know. Like, come on, just complain about something better than "the way your podcast is set up is wrong." Just so you know. Okay, bye. I don't know, blows my mind. But overall, we did good. The topic today is going to be, do guys really like boss babes? And before you answer, I already told you in the car that before you answer, I want to say a few things. I am in no way implying that women should not own a business, run a business, do what she needs to do. I'm mostly talking about those women, and the boss babe, I would say, is a woman who is so set on doing it all herself and like, "I don't need a man," but she wants a man, but then she can't figure out why she can't find a man.

John: Right.

Nicole: So, I want to clarify a little bit. And that also, in my mind, when I think of boss babe, I think of that as her identity. She's proud of that thing. She's like, "I'm a boss babe," right? And it's like her entrepreneur, she's giving herself the title. And that's why I wanted to use boss babe because I know plenty of women who own businesses that aren't in that boss babe mindset, you know what I mean? But there are people that take it to the extreme, and I feel like it's actually hurting them rather than helping them. It's like your identification. And it kind of reminds me of when someone who's really insecure is like being overly confident. And I get it because, like, I owned a business. Granted, I did it more of like a side business, and you do get that feeling of like, "Oh, like maybe I'm not good enough. Should I be charging this?" I get that. It is something that can cause insecurities, especially in women, you know, because we weren't allowed to work in the '50s or whatever, and now we can do that. But I feel like it kind of bore for me the boss babe kind of sort of area overcompensation borders on this small dick syndrome. Like, you know, like big truck, small penis, like that kind of thing. Or like, being a bad bitch, or like if a guy's like, "I'm an alpha male," it's like, "Yeah, right. America." Anybody who labels themselves as something like that, it's normally like, "Okay, you're probably overcompensating for some other sort of feelings that you have inside." But yeah, so I wanted to talk to you. And I mean, another thing I want to clarify too is that I'm not also implying to do things for men. I'm not saying don't start a business because men don't want a woman who owns a business. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying more of the boss babe, "I don't need a man" sort of concept that is more prevalent now.

John: Okay, so now that I've heard all my disclaimers, now I can answer the question. I mean, there are more things that I want to say, but I feel like I want to get your thoughts. The question is, do men like boss babes? Like, are they more attracted to them? Is that what they want? And actually, it's kind of hard to ask you because I know what you're going to say, but I feel like the guys in the comments would say something different, and maybe you'll address that as well.

Nicole: No, I already knew you said that in the one that came out today too.

John: Oh, did I?

Nicole: Yeah, you said the exact same thing. You were like, "No." In the podcast, consistent. But no, okay, so again, like you said, I agree. The same thing, there's nothing wrong with a woman having a business. I think it's great. I think it's great if you have a business. But identifying with the idea of "I don't need a man," like giving yourself the label of boss babe, it's not attractive. And maybe some guys in the comments would say, but I still don't think that the majority of men are going to like a woman self-proclaiming. Just like, okay, which woman is going to like it if I'm like, "I'm an alpha male"? I mean, I agree. There's a small, very small percentage of women that's like, "Yeah, that's like, 'Oh, is your last name Johnson? Oh, okay, then yeah, we're good to go.'" You know, that inside joke. But no, I mean, there's most women are not going to be turned on by a self-proclaimed alpha male. They want an alpha male; they don't want a self-proclaimed alpha male.

Nicole: Right.

John: So, it's the same kind of thing. Like, a guy wants a woman that has some kind of passion or she's doing something, not just doing nothing with her life. It doesn't mean that a guy's going to value women on different things, but proclaiming it and having that mindset is not attractive.

John: Not good. Well, I think, too, again, I'm people are going to crucify me.

Nicole: But they do it anyway, so it doesn't... Now you're learning the internet. This is how... But welcome. I can't speak for Boss babes everywhere, but I think their thing, too, a lot of the time, is that they are trying to flex their money like a man flexes their money. Yeah, and I feel like that's not attractive to a man. It'd be the same thing as if I wore yoga pants and I'm like, "Oh, check me out 'cause I'm wearing yoga." It's like not going to work. It'll work if you wear them, not going to work if I wear them, you know?

John: So, I don't know, your butt was looking pretty good in your sweatpants this morning. Looked like them yoga pants you talk about with the right up the butt cheeks.

Nicole: Well, it's just not going to have the same effect, okay? It distracted me, but yeah, I mean, so I think that's the thing to talk about is the concept of women feeling like they have to flex their money, and how that's not necessarily what men are looking for, at least men that they want. 'Cause let's look at it this way, right? Yeah, I'll give boss babes one thing for sure, they're out there running a business, they're doing what they have to do. That's hard work.

John: Yeah, that's hard work, right. But they're looking for a man of a caliber, or they should be, that's high because their caliber is high, right? If you're running a business, right, you're probably not going to want a guy that works at Pizza Hut, no offense if you work at Pizza Hut, but they're probably going to want another entrepreneur or someone similar, right, on their level to understand where they're coming from and to help them, I would think.

Nicole: Yeah, but I feel like a lot of those men aren't necessarily looking for someone to compete with, no. So when the boss babes come in and they go on a date and they're like, "I'm doing this, this, and this, and this," a man feels like he almost has to compete with her. This is my opinion. Feels like he has to compete with her in a way, and a man wants a challenge, but not in the business way, not in career way. He wants a challenge as in he has to pursue you before he gets you, and then he's invested. And those sort of challenges, he doesn't want to challenge us in, "I'm dating this woman who makes this much money, and I make close to hers, but maybe not enough. Now I got to make more than her, or else now I have to hear that she makes more than me." Because potentially, the boss babe could be like, "What are you doing? I'm making 60k a month, and you only make 50k a month. What are you doing, honey? Maybe you should jump on my webinar," right or something like that. So I feel like it's harder for women in that mindset 'cause they're almost kind of in the boss babe mindset, they're almost kind of repelling men because men don't want to compete with them, right. It's just not, it's just not even an attractive trait.

John: Right, it's just, it's not the thing that attracts a man. Like we, as a man, we don't find that attractive. Right, just like as a woman, and the reason why I think women think this is because that's what they find attractive. Right, a woman's like, who calls herself a boss babe, she's like, "Yeah, these are making money, like going after your shit," like all these, which are some, they're more masculine traits, let's be... It doesn't mean that you have to... When men are like, "Women just want a hot guy, that's what they want," so they're projecting that, the...

Nicole: Exactly. Well, and I think to add to that, 'cause this is a good time to add to it, women are so afraid to be feminine, like they're so afraid to live a soft life, which I do feel like it's kind of swinging back, though, and it's becoming more... Yeah, I think it's okay to be feminine and softer. It depends on what circles you're... But for so long, like when women, you know, were able to go out and get a job and do all that stuff, they started competing with men, not intentionally, but they did start competing with men, right. And now the boss babe mindset, I feel like, is still, it's like almost the extreme version of that still. It's like, it's still competing, like because you can have a business and make money and not be competing, or it not be your full personality, or it not be something that you use to define you, right. And because again, that's more of a masculine characteristic, right. If a guy has that same mentality, I mean, hopefully he's not calling himself a boss babe, but you know, if he is, that's fine, but a boss dude, I don't know, boss dude, I'm boss, I'm the boss, just call me the boss, all right. So that's probably what they would say, you know. It's that's an attractive trait.

Nicole: It's an attractive quality, right. And again, but also not if he's like flexing it.

John: Well, yeah, yeah, not the flexing part of it, but I'm just saying. But, and this is where women also are like, "It's a double standard," like in the workplace and stuff. It's like if a guy is assertive and speaks up in meetings, he's praised, but if a woman does that, then she's like, you know, whatever. So there is kind of that, there is some truth to that, right. But also a reason for it. It's because that generally, those masculine traits, when a man embodies them, they're looked on as good. When a woman embodies those masculine traits, they're not looked on as good. Not to say that, which I feel like if you are a woman who's working and wants to work, then you should be able to speak up and be assertive because if you're going to be in that environment, you should be able to act the same way without the double standard. But I agree with you that it's, it's, it's like we're here, and it should be okay.

Nicole: Well, if you're going to work, period, you're in this work box, then you can be assertive, and you can say what you want and, you know, get shit done, right. But it's still like if you're a woman, now you're bossy, but if you're a man, you're like a great leader, and it, it's still separated even though it should be, if you're both at work, you should both be able to do the same things.

John: Yeah, I agree with that. It's a complicated thing because it's because there are, again, like I said, the masculine traits and the feminine traits, and so yeah, it is more masculine.

Nicole: Yeah, and I can't speak out of my own experience, but I feel like there are women, especially now, who are trying to maybe go to work, maybe they are a CEO or something, and they try to go and run their business, and they have to maybe be more masculine, but when they get home, they want to be more feminine, and that's harder.

John: It is harder. It's harder to flip the switch rather than just being able to be feminine. Right, a man needs to provide, right, the men out here, that's...

John: The ideal they like, they don't get it. You need to be... Can a woman do that? And is it fine? And will I applaud her for doing it? Of course. However, you're making it harder on yourself, or men are making it harder because now you have to try to make sure that she can flip the switch. If she has to bring home money to pay the bills because you're not paying for all of them, she's got to do it. When a woman is single and she's working because she has to pay her bills, she's going to be somewhat more masculine because that's a masculine world. She has to survive, even if she gets in a relationship and it's like 50/50 or whatever, she still has to bring home money. She still has to be somewhat more masculine than she would be if she didn't have to work and she could stay home. Now, I'm not saying that staying home and raising children and things like that is easy. They both are hard, but at least you get to be in your feminine. It's a role you're more suited for. But it's still hard, but at least it allows you to be more in an element that seems more natural. Especially in my generation, we grew up with, you know, go out, make sure you get a job, which is good. I feel like women should be able to get a job so they won't be stuck in bad relationships or situations they can't get out of because they can go get a job. They know that they can do it. But at the same time, we never really heard about the right way to have a traditional marriage, which is also why we started this podcast. We're trying to take the traditional marriage and make it more modern in today's world. It's kind of shifting more towards women being able to be in their feminine, and also women are learning about the different phases of their own bodies and when their hormones are peaking and things like that so that they can help regulate themselves. It's really complicated. I'm not saying that women shouldn't own a business, but if you own a business and you find a good man, I feel like he should come in and help you. He probably has his own business too, but he might be able to help you on the financial side or some side that he's better at. So you can handle maybe like the day-to-day business and the creative aspect if that's your favorite. But maybe you like the financial and he's more creative or something. You can still work with owning a business as a woman. I'm not saying if you own a business as a woman, your life is over and you're going to be alone forever. But there's a way to handle it, and the boss babe mindset, I feel like, would push any guy away because they almost come at it in a way of like, "I don't need you, and I can do this on my own. I already did this on my own." And that's not going to make a man feel included at all. That makes him feel like you're going to compete with each other, and now you've just ruined the whole thing. And like I said, it's just not attractive because you got to think about when you're thinking about attracting a mate, what do they value, not what do you value. A lot of women get in their mind that the things that they're valuing, that they find attractive in a man, that the man would find attractive, but that's not the case. And so those are actually unattractive things. A lot of women are like, "Well, I don't want to conform to what a man wants me to be." Okay, it's fine. But you know, if I'm selling a product because you're an entrepreneur, right? You're a boss babe. Are you just going to make whatever product that you want to make, or are you going to make the product that people want to buy? You see what I'm saying? It's like you already understand the concept. So you're in the dating market. You want to date a man, you want to date a woman, okay, then be a boss babe. I'm sure that will work out. But you got to create the product that is interesting, at least the marketing that's interesting to him.

Nicole: What about the men who want to be taken care of? What men? Okay, the boys who want to be taken care of, or the boys who want 50/50, or the boys who want to be a stay-at-home dad. What about those? Look, you know in regards to this, I know what you're going to say about all of that, but I'm saying this because if you go in the comments or even if you go on a date as a single woman who is a boss babe, you're going to run into guys who are like, "Yeah, take me on a date, pay for dinner. Where are we going next?" And unfortunately, because the boss babes are repelling the men that they really want, they're kind of stuck with these men.

John: It could work like that. Here's the thing, and this is kind of what we were talking about about traditional roles and stuff because a lot of people are upset about this as well. So let's get a few things straight. Maybe masculinity and femininity are social constructs. I'm saying maybe because I'm going to give you that, the people that complain about that. Okay, so let's say that they are, that they're social constructs, and yeah, boys can wear dresses and girls can play with trucks and whatever. We have to admit though that attraction is greater when there is polarity. When there's polarity, when you have opposite, I mean, this is just a law of nature, right? Negative, positive. Negative, negative doesn't work. So we like that, we create that. That's what creates passion. Every romance novel, every love story, every movie, romantic comedy, every one of those things is built off of the polarity. That's how things function. Even in non-heterosexual couples, relationships, there's still polarity. Polarity makes things better. So my point is, is that we want polarity. Who should be the man, who should be the masculine, who should take that end of the pole?

John: Who should take the feminine of the pole? I mean, it makes more sense to me that I'm the man, I should just take the masculine end, and you should take the feminine end because you're the woman, and that makes the most sense. But it doesn't have to be that way. You can flip it if you really want to be the feminine guy, and this girl's going to be the masc. You're going to still have polarity, and it's still gonna work. I mean, it's not my thing. I wouldn't dig it, but you know, that can work. But you have to understand though that you're giving up one side, right? And that's the thing. So, what I would say to those guys that are like, "Oh yeah, I'd like to be taken care of, I'd like a boss babe," and all that, okay fine, but just realize that you now must assume the total feminine role, right? And she, and don't complain when she takes the m, she's going to tell you what to do, she's going to be in charge, she's going to be the man of the house. Like, that's how it's going to be in this case. So yeah, it could work like that, but it's probably not going to work. And if you have ambitions of being a man, then you can't have it both ways. That's what it comes down to.

Nicole: Yeah, and I mean, I feel like these women get to the boss babe level because they actually become the men that they want. So then, they think, "I don't need him because I became him." Like, what's that Cher quote? She's like, her mom is like, "Oh, marry a rich man," and she's like, "Mom, I am a rich man," or something. You know, like these women become the successful person that they want in their life. Right, which is good, like it's good to have goals and achieve them, and I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that it becomes so much their personality and what they're focused on that they can't really go back to that soft life because they work so hard, and then now they've gotten here, they're like, "Well, now I'm making all this money. I can't go back now. This, and I got this business. I got to do this." And so, you know, they kind of put themselves in a tougher position. And like you said, I feel like a lot of those women do probably end up with men who don't mind taking a more feminine role because I don't honestly blame a woman either because if I worked super hard and made a company and making really good money, and I did it all on my own, yeah, if I can't find a man that can keep up or help me or do better than me, right, I'm going have to find somebody that's going to be able to take over the things that I don't have time to do. Right, so you got to think about it this way, right? It's like the guys, just what you were asking before, the boys in the comment section that are like, "Oh, I want to be taken care of," they're the ones that are working at Pizza Hut, right? Yeah, so to them, it's like, yeah, it's great. I want a successful, like those attributes because they're thinking in terms of greed, right? They're not, I'm sure they're not jerking off on the internet to women wearing business suits with a lot of money. I'm sure that's not what they're, I mean, maybe they are, but I'm sure that's not the case. But they're thinking, "Oh yeah, this would be good for a situation, right? You want to be used for, or so I can play video games all day and she make the money." But if you think about the kind of man that a woman like that's trying to attract, she doesn't really want the Pizza Hut guy, right? She wants, well, if she worked that hard to build a business, you think she's going to want a Pizza Hut guy? Right, and she needs a guy that's above her level, right? 'Cause women really need to be able to look up to the guy that they're with. They want a guy that's more successful than they are, right? I mean, that's really what they really want. So, that guy, okay, maybe she's got her own business and maybe she's doing well, but maybe this guy, you know, he's got several businesses, he's worth maybe tens of millions of dollars. Okay, he's not impressed by that, right?

John: Right, well, that's not a top quality why he is attractive and wants to be with this woman. And I think that's where the boss babe people, they're like, "Oh, if he sees I own my own business and I'm doing really well, he'll want me more." Yeah, it doesn't, he's already got that, but it doesn't factor in. I'm not saying it hurts women. I feel like it hurts women when they are boss babe and they're like, "I don't need you," you know, and they're going in like that, like going on a date and basically being like, "I did all this. What do you do?" And like, "I don't need you." That's going to obviously make a man not attracted to you. But I do think what you said is important to reiterate, is that it's not something that a man factors into if he wants to be with you, and if he's going to marry you. It's like this, okay, I go to the grocery store, you give me a list of stuff that you want from the grocery store. Okay, I come back, I got lots of bags full of all kinds of stuff. I'm like, "Look at these ding-dongs I picked up over here, you know, these Twinkies, all this stuff, right, some Coke Zero." Right, I didn't pick up any liquid death or what it, yeah. Alright, so, but I didn't get anything on your list. Mhm, and I gave you a list, right? It's like, okay, all that bonus stuff is not as good if you got everything on the list and you had the bonus stuff, right? That's great. If you got nothing on the list, then I don't care about the bonus stuff. And that's where the successful guys that have their own business, that are making their own money, whatever, when they encounter boss babe, it's like, yeah, having a business, doing all the stuff is great, but you got to get the things on the list first. And what's the list for those guys, right? I can tell you, it is being feminine, right? Because that guy, he's already got the financial side of his life figured out. He's not Pizza Hut guy. Pizza Hut guy's like, "Ah yeah, I need some money," right? He's got that stuff figured out. So he's saying, "What I want is, I want a wife. I want her to be a good mother. I don't need her to make money. I need her to support me in making the money because it's a hard day of work. I need her to be helping me out." Right, maybe, you know, and again, it's stuff that women naturally do, like be nurturing and caring and, you know, have the emotional capacity to do that. I mean, I'm a more emotional person personally, but when I don't have a job to worry about and stress about, it's easier for me to handle all the things going on.

John: Our house and supporting you, right, and my own emotions than if I had that had that on top of it, right. But that's his list, right.

Nicole: Right. So, if you're a woman and you're meeting the list, and then now you're a boss babe on top of this, right, you have a business, that's great. It's a bonus, right. But if you're coming with just the things that are not on the list, it has no value. Not in terms of a relation, not in terms of the guy that you're trying to attract that has, you know, because he doesn't see that as, because he's like, well, you didn't get anything that I had put on the list. Like, why are you telling me all this other stuff when I gave you a list? This is the list that he's looking for. So, if you don't have it, then it's not, you know. Well, here's the other part that I wrote down, um, that I think boss babes should realize, and women who own businesses in general, like if they're dating and they're trying to find a man. Like, if you find a man who has his shit together, and you have a business or whatnot, right, if you're not going into boss babe territory where you're like, I don't need you, like I got this. When you're with a man who will provide for you and is a traditional man, you can still have your business, and it almost takes the pressure off of you in a way that your business can do even better because you're not fighting for your life. When you made this business and became a boss babe, you're fighting for your life. You have to pay your bills, you have to run this business, you have employees, whatever, you're fighting for your life. And when you are able to be with a man, if you own a business as a woman, and you're able to be with a man who also has his stuff together and will provide for your family and all that kind of stuff, you have the freedom to relax into that and almost bring the feminine to that because he has the bills and things handled. Yeah, so your business, and I'm not saying that like your money from your business doesn't help the bills, but I'm just saying that like you don't have to stress in the way that you do when you're on your own or you're the breadwinner, right. When you have a man that wants to provide and help you, either by doing all of the providing or whatnot, or even helping you with your business so that he can take some of that off of you, that's still taking some stress off of you. You get to be in the relationship and be feminine and still do what you want to do. Like if you have a business, it becomes easier to do that, and you'll be happier because you won't be so stuck in your masculine. Yeah, it'll be more something you're doing for fun and still your business. It's kind of like that joke, the, you know, poor people, uh, wife doesn't work, middle class wife works, mhm, upper class wife doesn't work, right. Rich wife has a business that loses $5,000 a month.

John: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole: Which I'm not saying that that's what would happen, no. I'm not saying that. But you're implying that when you are taken care of, that you could even start a business because you want to, not because it's a passion, because you're not doing it as a survival mechanism.

John: Exactly, which is exactly what I'm saying. It's like, and if you even come in with a business right now, you're not in survival mode, right. Yeah, and you bought into the man's dream. I mean, not even his dream, but his like, you didn't have to do that. Like, you, and it's great if, you know, but as a woman, you're trying to climb the ladder that young men, men, young men, yes, I'm talking to you, you have to climb the ladder. You better get your shit together, and you better start your business and hustle your ass and stuff, and do that to survive. But I can already hear that I have to climb the ladder, but she doesn't, right. But as a woman, like, you didn't have to do that. I mean, it's great. All you have to do is just be yourself and just be kind and feminine, and you'll be first. Because a lot of women were stuck in bad situations at first, but where we got really messed up is where we took that too far, and now we were like, we have to do everything that a man does, right.

John: Right.

Nicole: And in the process of doing that, we actually made feminism, like, or well, made like being feminine bad, right. Like, feminism is supposed to be about being a woman, but now it's about how manly can we be.

John: Exactly.

Nicole: That's what it is. Yeah. And so, we made being feminine bad. But I think it is on the turnaround. Like, there is definitely a lot more feminine positive, uh, sort of content out there now. But I think really what women should focus on, all women, whether you're single or not, or whatever, your boss babe, you own a business, or you don't, or whatever, or you're a stay-at-home, that we need to find the value in being feminine. Because also, men have lost the value in a feminine woman. They say they want one, but then they're the same men that say, what do you bring to the table, which is a masculine thing. If I'm bringing anything material to the table, that's masculine. There's no table. The concept, the way of thinking about it, is a masculine way of thinking, right. It's thinking transactionally.

John: Exactly.

Nicole: That's what it is. But, and men don't even realize that they're perpetuating these boss babes and these really masculine women, right, because they keep pushing this narrative, right. And so, I think what's most important for women and for men is to realize the value in being feminine, the value in the emotional and like spiritual things that a woman brings to a relationship, to the world, like her intuition, her nurturing, her caring, her essence of who she is, right, is a value. And as women, we lost that. We're like, well, how much money can we make? And I get it, to some degree, because if you haven't found a good guy, you're like, okay, well, I have to make the money. I have to provide for myself. And that's why I say that women will always have a little bit of masculinity when they're on their own, because they have to have it, right. But at the same time, it's like, we have to bring back seeing the value in this, otherwise, we're just all masculine. And look, it's like this. It's like, you don't look at a diamond and be like, what can you do for me? What can I cut with this? You're like, I want to see how pretty it is and like how it looks nice. There's a reason we give women diamonds because it's symbolic. No, it's symbolic of something having value for just what it is. It doesn't have to do anything in order to have value. And this is a concept that seems to be lost. Is that, yes, guys, women are valuable just because they're women. Okay, but they're hearing you right now, and I can hear their man brain. You're not saying that she just exists.

John: And it's fine. You're not saying that in a way. You are, but you're not saying that because I want to be clear. You're saying that the things that women have by nature—nurturing, caring, right, all of that stuff, intrinsic qualities, right? A woman, just being a woman, a feminine woman, is valuable, right? She doesn't have to do anything, become anything. She doesn't have to build anything, she doesn't create anything. All she has to do is just be what she already is, right? And a lot of women have also ruined that for themselves because they're very angry, and they don't know how to control their emotions and things like that. And so again, we're not saying that women aren't held accountable. No, no, it's not that. That's also why I'm saying...

Nicole: Women need to realize the things about being feminine because how many times, even me personally, has a woman heard, "You're too sensitive," and that's an insult, right? Women are supposed to be sensitive, right? Yeah, we're supposed to feel, we're supposed to have emotions, right? That is what makes us women. That is what makes us nurturing and caring and able to bring children into this world and raise them into human beings. The ironic thing is that it's only very sensitive men that say, "You're too sensitive," right? In fact, that as per sensitive people say, tell other people they're being too sensitive, right? That's but that's the ironic thing about it is that those men are being too sensitive. That's why they care about it so, right? But you're right. There's so much stuff that boys are telling women, and complaining about, and they're mad that women act this way, right? And the thing is, women have gotten strong, like they've gotten strong because we've had to be masculine. So like we know how to be strong, we know how to stand in what we believe in. Now, I'm just saying that women need to stand in feminism, like actual feminism, which is, in my mind, being feminine, right? Turning women back into like feminine women, right? We need to be strong in valuing that. We need to be strong, and when a man tries to talk shit about how being feminine is bad, that we're like, "No, it's not," and like just let him talk if he's going to talk, but be like, "No, this is a good thing," right? A diamond is... you don't need to add to the diamond, right? You don't. You're just making it dirty. You don't need to polish like that. It's just, it's a diamond. It's good already, you know what I mean? The man needs to work. He needs to build himself up. He's not valuable as he is. That's just how it is. And if you don't like it, I'm sorry. What man is just valuable how he is? What, to women, to a society, to anyone? No one. Well, I mean, we all grow, and I know what you're saying is like women just exist, and they're good, but we're all like growing, and so like we kind of went totally different way, but well, it still goes with it because I think boss babes have your business, do what you got to do, but don't do it in such a masculine way that you are pushing away the men that you are trying to be with. Yeah, if you're using the title, that's the thing. Step away from the title. Like I said, if you got what's on the list already, you know, then it's fine. Then all those accessories, additions, no guy is going to be like, "Oh, I don't like this woman because she has her own business or she's making money." He's going to say, "I don't like this woman because that's what she's about," right? She thinks that that's valuable, and she's not feminine. She doesn't care about having children or taking care of or nurturing, and she thinks she can do it all. Like if she had that list, if she was the most feminine woman and she had her own business, that would be a plus. That would be like, "Oh, sure. I, what, who wouldn't want that situation," right? So the problem is not that guys dislike women who are ambitious in some way. It's just that you got to hit the main things first, just like the same thing. You know, women have a list for a guy, right? I'm trying to think, whatever accessories, like if a guy wasn't very masculine, but he would, he ornated himself with, you know, he was a metrosexual, let's say, but he wasn't any of the other things, it wouldn't be so valuable, right? It's hard to come up with a good equivalent, but you know, I'm sure there's one. I mean, you have a list. Women have a list too. Women have to think about this too. Like if you are proud of what you built and all those things, that's fine. Yeah, but when you get to boss babe level, it's not fine because it's almost like going on a date with a guy and him being like, "Yeah, I run like a business that makes all this money." You don't... it doesn't matter how much money he says he's making. You're instantly turned off because he's flaunting that. That's exactly how men feel, right? When you walk in and you're like, "Yeah, I have a very successful business, and I make this." Like you should act actually how actual rich men act or have successful businesses, not bring that up at all, not until further in, like especially if you have a successful business because in my mind, I'd be like, "Is this man a Pizza Hut man that's just trying to hop on my gravy train?" Like I'd be like, "No." Like I'll tell him what I do. Like I can tell him what I do. Like let's say I own a dance studio, and I would just be like, "I'm a dance teacher," or something at first, and then once I got to know him, I'd be like, "I teach, but I also own the studio that I teach at," you know? You can add that. You're not lying, right?

John: No, but you're not giving away all this information.

Nicole: Well, yeah, and modesty is a feminine quality that is highly valued. It's actually a good quality for anyone to have, but it is more considered a feminine trait. And so when a woman is displaying the opposite of modesty, it doesn't sit right.

John: Right, well, that's masculine, right? Like to gloat and be almost more egocentric is a more masculine thing. I'm not saying that women have to be like shy and timid, but I'm just saying that if you're going around being kind of arrogant, no offense, that is a more masculine... How much better is it to be more capable and more powerful and not need to display it because you know it, right? And then people are pleasantly surprised. Like you're like, "Oh yeah, I've played Mario Kart before," and then you're like, he's telling you what I did to him. What, there's a video somewhere of John saying, "You're better than me at Mario Kart." But he's gotten really good, actually.

Nicole: Well, this was on the OG Mario Kart, but yeah, but it's better, right? You know, taken by surprise. It's just like, again, if you're going to learn to be a man, at least learn to be a gentleman, right?

John: Right, 'cause a gentleman doesn't brag about his shit. He's not like...

John: Like, yeah, you'll see, you know, like, "I got a house, yeah, it's like a mansion, but yeah, you know, whatever you like." He's not going to say that. He doesn't need to say that, right?

Nicole: Yeah, so no, I 100% agree with that. Yeah, but, and be confident in being a woman, be feminine. Like, when you go on a date, and some guy's like, "What do you bring to the table?" If you even ask that, you leave the table. Exactly, because like, he is asking, he's basically outing himself as a man who wants a more masculine woman, right? And if you want to be in your masculine, go right ahead. But I am sure there are plenty of women who are in their masculine who don't want to have to live that way forever. It's exhausting. Women are not equipped, right, literally, to be going nonstop. And also, women are finally learning this too, that like, our bodies and the way that our hormones fluctuate. I keep bringing that up, but they did a study where men have very consistent levels of their hormones, so they're able to go to a 9 to 5, and it's fine. But women, it fluctuates so much that them going to a 9 to 5, it doesn't feel the same day to day. One day, when their testosterone is higher during whatever part of their cycle, I think it's ovulation or around there, yeah, ovulation, like, yeah, they're going to go out there, they might be like, okay, I could do a 12-hour day. But when it's like that time of the month, they're like, I don't even want to leave this bed. And but that's normal. But the thing is, we have made it not normal because we've pushed women to be like, go, go, go, just like men do. What are you doing? You're not doing what a man does, then you, what are you doing? You're not worth anything, you know? So, we got to go back to be like, no, if I need to rest as a woman, that's fine. Yeah, and I bring these other things to this relationship, right?

John: Exactly, that are valuable, right. And I will hold firm that they're valuable, right. And even if some man tries to tell me they're not, then he's obviously not the man for me. And I'm not going to listen to a man like that because there are men like you out there who find the value in what a woman brings to the table. And too many people are getting caught up in money too much. That's because the thing is too, because, and you know, you know my stance on it, a guy should pay for everything. He should pay for everything. Like, that's what he should, that's what a man does. A man pays for everything. He takes care of the woman. Now, guys push back, and they're like, well, that's impossible today, and you know, they whatever kind of look. The thing is, you don't need the iPhone. You don't like, you can live a much simpler life. And I know rents are high and stuff like that, but you can live a much simpler life where you are the primary breadwinner as a man, and you take care and most women, I know that a lot of guys like, oh, women would like money. No, they want to feel protected and provided for. It doesn't matter how much that you have, it just matters how much you give, right.

Nicole: Right, that's a difference. It's like, man, that better be a clip because that's true. Like, 'cause there's plenty of men out there who aren't making a ton of money who are still providers for their family, and that is the key. That's what a woman really wants to hear that, and they're like, oh, well, I have to make so and so amount of money then. And it's like, no.

John: And you have a better life, you have a better life for your children, mhm, if she doesn't work. Instead of living in the nice suburban neighborhood with a couple of cars, you live somewhere that's maybe a little bit more off the beaten path. That's not as nice, a smaller house, you got one car, whatever it is, okay. You don't maybe steak dinners, right, but you're, you have a feminine woman in your house, right, who's making a home, raising your children, providing support. She's going to be happier, you're going to be happier, everyone's going to be happier. Like, the money, yeah, you can say, oh, if she makes more money, we can get a bit, yeah, all that stuff, but that never is going to ever make anyone happy. That's never the solution. That never solves a problem. People still think that money solves all their problem. It just creates more, you know. When you don't have money, you're worrying about getting money. When you do have money, you're worrying about how not to lose the money. And I can tell you that the stress of how not to lose it is a lot of times worse than how to get it, you know what I mean? That's the thing. And so, you got to figure out what's optimal and work from there, and take money out of the equation, and instead of letting money drive the dynamics of your relationship, that's not the move, right.

Nicole: And yeah, as a man, if you do the math, and you're like, no, there's no way we can live off of a $40,000 a year salary. I disagree. There are, you can move somewhere. There are different options. But if you really have figured that that's not the case, then you got to figure out how to get to the place where you can take care of your family, right. And if you're a single guy, yeah, I've said it before, I'll say it again. You don't get into a relationship until you can support a woman. That's how it can guarantee you if a guy comes knocking on my door, wants to date my daughter, I'm certainly going to be like, yeah, how are you going to provide for her?

John: That's the question. He's going to be scared just looking at you anyway, though. Boys at our school already are. Can you take care of this woman? Can you take care of this woman? Can you have a kid? Can you take care of the kid? Can you financially provide? You're going to make her work? Mhm, no, I don't think so. That's not, so you got to figure out, unless she wants to start her own thing. He has to be the stability, even if he told me, he's like, "Sir, I'm only making like $80,000 a year, 60, whatever it is, you know, by the time inflation, whatever. But, and he's like, but you know, I have, uh, I don't spend a lot of money. I got a house. I have a mortgage payment on it. It's this amount of money. I have, I don't, she doesn't have to work. I can take care of the bills, all that stuff." I don't care. He doesn't have to put her up in a mansion. That's not the point. It's not how much you have, it's how much you give, like I said.

Nicole: Yeah, so, so to round out our conversation, boss babes, it's not all about the money.

John: No, guys, it's not all about the money, everybody. It's not all about the money. It's about getting back to who we are. Women, don't feel like you have to be a man. That's not going to bring you the man that you want. You'll just be competing with each.

John: Other it'll be like two guys fighting. Yeah, like you have your business wherever it's at. Be modest about it. Don't bring it up on the first date. I would bring it up maybe on the third date if you actually like the guy. Yeah, that's fine. And go from there, but don't be like, "Yeah, I don't really need you." Be like, "Yeah, I actually own the business that I work at, and it does pretty well." But you know, there are these other things that I like. Just move on, you know? You don't have to go into full detail until you guys decide you want to settle down. And then, like I said, if he wants to help you or be open to having him be involved in your business where he can maybe take some of that stress off of you. Or if you meet a man who is making more than you, and now you can kind of de-stress and not be in survival mode with your business, you might even end up making more money. A lot of times, that happens when you're not so involved. And then obviously, put your money together. Like if you are still having a business and your husband has a business, joint bank account. Now that's your guys' money. But like you said, you shouldn't feel as a woman like you have to start a business, make all this money for a man to want you because that's not what a man is even thinking of. And ultimately, even if a woman does have a business, which is fine, the man needs to have the means to provide if she didn't have it, right? Because what that means is now she doesn't feel like she has to work the business.

Nicole: Right, which puts her in her masculine. It's great if she's making money; she has to. But you as a man can't be like, "Oh well, she makes good money, so I don't have to make it." No, you have to make enough to still support your lifestyle with her not working, even if she is. That's a bonus because that's what is going to... That's what I'm saying. It's like, it doesn't matter. There's no way around this, you know what I'm saying? Guys are like, "Oh, whatever, money, finances, whatever." And even women are like, "Oh, I want to be able to work." And it's fine, like I said, that's totally fine. But that doesn't escape the idea that the man has to still be able to provide. There's a difference as a woman to working because you want to and working because you have to. So if you want to work because you want to, you have a career that you really enjoy doing, it's your passion. That is different than working because you have to. But I will say this, if that is the case and you as a woman want to work, which I don't necessarily have a problem with, as long as you... That shopping list, right? You see what I'm saying? It's like, if you're not doing the things that are on the shopping list, then maybe you shouldn't be in a relationship. So if you're feminine, you're doing all those things, and you want to work, fine. But if you're not doing the things on the list that are actually the value... But that's why I think too, I'm saying that women need to find the value in being feminine again because we've even lost it. I lost it. I was... You know, I got to throw this in there because I was masculine. You out-masculin me, and finally put me in my feminine, and now I'm like, gosh, I just feel so much better. Like, that doesn't mean that I don't get sensitive and overwhelmed and still have emotions, but it's nowhere near when I was in survival mode. And that is why I'm sitting here saying this because I also looked at like, oh, somebody too sensitive or like this is a weak thing. And I, when I became more feminine, found the power in it. And so many women have lost that concept of, or never even knew that it existed. Because I feel like I have never been as feminine as I am now. Like, maybe when I was a kid, but I can't really think back to that very much. But rather than looking at it as a weakness, which is what men taught us because in a man's world, these things are a weakness, or they don't provide a benefit materially. So men think they're garbage. As women, we've believed that, and now it's time to go back. It's time to go back to having emotions and being sensitive and following our intuition and providing a nurturing environment for both your husband and your child and things like that, and caring about people and things. That's what we need to go back to.

John: Right, yeah, I agree. And it's like, just as you were saying that, I was just thinking about it. It's like, it's almost like, I was trying to think of the exact analogy here, but it's like the masculine mindset, what a lot of guys are thinking about this, ignoring the feminine, is almost as if you had, let's say you had a movie, right? And you're like, "Well, let's just convey the information that we're trying to convey in the movie. There's no art, or like a website that has no design. It's like, this website is functional. It just needs to be functional." And he's like, "Why am I going to pay to have a design? That's stupid. It does what it's supposed to do. All this other stuff isn't worth any money." It's like, no, the design is important, art. It's the art, right? It's like, you can't place a... It's the wrong thinking system when you just exclude that and you say there's no value in things that are not... But that's why the two go together too, right? Like, men are the more like, you know, information, they're like the logicalness, and women are the emotional, the art, like you said. It makes a movie. You have the words in the script, but if you just had that with no props, no costumes, nothing, that would just be a bunch of words.

Nicole: Right, exactly. It would just be an essay. But when you add this element in, it creates this whole different experience. And so, people should look at it that way. Yeah, men are like the script, and women are like the other parts that make a play or a movie the beautiful thing that it is. You're beautiful together. You can't just think the functional.

John: Alright, so it's the segment of the week. Really, there's keep on coming up dry, but that's a good thing, right? So, I mean, I think that we did really figure out a lot of the things that, you know, I mean, we are already, you know, maybe the thing is, is that one of your buttons is unbuttoned, and I've been staring at it.

Nicole: Jeez, you could have told me that at the end of the... Or not. Yeah, you should tell me that. That's my bad. I mean, if it's like, we were so deep in the conversation, I couldn't just be like, "Yeah, do this," and also, "Your button's unbuttoned." But, uh, yeah, I mean, no, there was a little bit of a discussion last night about me being on my phone when we were out. Like, I was quiet and stuff. I had a hard...

John: It's not like you were totally silent, but you seemed a bit off. My brain clicked over because I was surprised. I didn't expect you to feel that way at all. I wasn't even thinking that way. But then my brain clicked over again, and I realized it doesn't matter why she feels this way; she feels this way. And I was like, "Oh yeah, John, oh yeah, better than perfect podcast, John, gotcha." So you're just going to listen and just... yeah. But it doesn't matter. You know, the man brain wants to defend, but why? It doesn't matter. This isn't what I was trying to do.

John: It only matters what you feel, and that's all that you care about. I think about it too. It's like, which is better? If you're offended, whether you're male or female, for someone to explain to you why they did the thing and that they didn't intend to do the thing. In one way, you feel better because it's like, "Oh, they didn't intentionally do this." You thought that they did this maliciously or whatever, or inconsiderately, and it was just a misunderstanding. So which is better? To explain that or for them to just say, "Oh wow, I'm sorry that you feel like that," or to empathize with you and say, "Yeah, I'll never do that again," not to explain why they did it or what they were trying to do. But that's so much of a better answer, right?

John: Our brains want to go and defend. It's not even... it's just to give an explanation because we think that that is what someone wants. But that's not what someone wants. Someone just wants to know that you care and that you're not going to do it again. That's all that. And that's the most effective apology also.

Nicole: That's true.

John: You care and you're not going to do it again. Not the explanation. It takes away. So, yeah. We had a good week unless there's anything you can think of?

Nicole: No, that was like the only thing. I guess we'll have to do an episode though on that book that we're almost finished with. We've been reading it together, so that's why it's taking us so long. But yeah, we have a lot of thoughts on "Love and Respect."

John: Yeah, we have to do a whole episode on the "Love and Respect" book. We should. It started out really good, but then there's some aspects... I think it's just going to be like a remix of it. We're going to have to do our own version to talk about.

John: Let me check real quick here our iTunes since we're at the end of our episode here. Going to keep on... will we have any... one day I'm going to come in here, and there's going to be like 50. I hope so. Oh, reception is not so good. Okay, here we go. It's going to be... there's going to be one from Liquid Death, and it's going to be like, "Why'd you pick Coca-Cola?" That's right. Oh, here it's coming up here. Oh, oh no. Oh, hold on. Got to scroll down here. You have to scroll down. Oh no, nothing new, guys. Come on. You could be famous. You could be literally... I could be reading the words that you wrote. Okay, and I could be saying them for a hundred people to hear. Okay, you could even put your own business, you boss babe. You're like, "Oh yeah, your website." I would have read it.

John: I would have read it. That's... you missed the opportunity. It's free. I can't believe it. Oh God, now we're going to get spammed with just random people putting ads on our thing. But you got to leave five stars. Yes, that's it, right. All right, well, I guess that's it for this week. Let's see next week if we find a way.