Nicole [00:00:00]: Honestly, how I feel is people can do whatever they want to do, but to promote that they're happier with multiple partners. There's just a part of me that genuinely doesn't believe that, like, if for this part of their life, they want to be polyamorous and they're enjoying that, I believe that. But having dated and tried to find the person and dated around until you came along, none of even those other relationships or any part of that was better than being with you again. I just feel like it's harmful to be like, well, biologically, we're not monogamous, and so these people are happier. Like, are they happier?

John [00:00:34]: Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. Welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:01]: That's right.

John [00:01:01]: Yeah. And the last. Last week, we were talking about rock stars. Yep. And this week, it's not as. I mean, it's still pretty exciting. You know, biology. Right.

Nicole [00:01:11]: Science.

John [00:01:12]: Science.

Nicole [00:01:13]: Do you do Bill nyde's Science Guy?

John [00:01:16]: Are we a. Are we a monogamous species? Human beings?

Nicole [00:01:22]: Yeah. Are we biologically monogamous?

John [00:01:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:25]: Or polyamorous.

John [00:01:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:26]: As a lot of people say.

John [00:01:28]: Yeah. We listened to a podcast where.

Nicole [00:01:31]: The Diary podcast, and it was. I forget who the guest was.

John [00:01:37]: Anthropologist.

Nicole [00:01:38]: Yeah.

John [00:01:39]: Social anthropologist.

Nicole [00:01:40]: And she was talking about, like, fatherhood and.

John [00:01:43]: Yeah. Love.

Nicole [00:01:45]: But it was mostly about fatherhood, really. I feel like.

John [00:01:49]: Yeah. Yeah, I think it was.

Nicole [00:01:51]: And why fathers are important and things like that. But there was a tidbit in there.

John [00:01:56]: Why fathers are important, why they're also unnecessary. So that was the weird thing about the father. They're like, oh, yeah, no two women can be fathers, but fathers are important. But.

Nicole [00:02:05]: Or two men can have the same effect as a mother.

John [00:02:08]: The mother. So it's like, why do we need women? But why do we need men? Why do we need anyone?

Nicole [00:02:13]: We don't. That's what AI wants us to believe because it's gonna take over. But anyway, go watch the AI episode if you want to get more into that. One part that really stood out was she was talking about how polyamorous couples. Like, that's actually the biological way we're wired. Or, like, same level of trouble.

John [00:02:37]: Yeah. Same level of satisfaction between monogamous couples and polyamorous.

Nicole [00:02:43]: Yeah. And we both, like, paused it and was like, wait a minute. We paused it because, one, obviously, we don't agree with that. But John actually brought up the point that I was thinking the same thing, is that when people talk about biologically, we're not meant to be monogamous or even, in my opinion, biologically, men are programmed to spread their seed. Or you just mentioned before we started this episode, biologically women are gonna seek out the highest value. Man. Like, those things might be true.

John [00:03:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:03:23]: But what we came to, the agreement is, is that we don't operate our lives from strictly biological standards.

John [00:03:31]: We're not so animal. We're not just animals.

Nicole [00:03:33]: Right.

John [00:03:33]: We have a spiritual aspect.

Nicole [00:03:35]: Crazy, right?

John [00:03:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:36]: Like, we don't just, you know, we have cerebral. Literally run away when we're scared or something. I mean, maybe if something's chasing you and that's what makes sense.

John [00:03:44]: We don't just. And pee wherever we want. Animal. Like, we learned to become potty trained.

Nicole [00:03:50]: John didn't have to do an elaborate dance in order for me to be like, ah, I want to mate with him.

John [00:03:55]: Yeah, I just did that for fun. Just.

Nicole [00:03:57]: Yeah, you just do it for fun.

John [00:03:58]: It just. It just amped the wanting to mate with me more, you know?

Nicole [00:04:03]: Yeah, yeah. Maybe we'll insert the clip.

John [00:04:05]: Where's the gym? Is it over there or there? And then you're like, oh, I. I'm.

Nicole [00:04:12]: Like, oh, never mind. It can also deter. No, it obviously didn't deter, but. Yeah. So that part really struck us as far as talking about why especially a lot of anthropologists or any other sort of scientific credentialed person likes to bring up biology for excuses when it's not just biological, that can help us make sense. Sense of things. So I get why they bring it up, but it's not the full picture.

John [00:04:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:49]: And I think that. I guess I'll let you say some things before I go off on, like, another tangent, because I've been talking for.

John [00:05:00]: A while, but why don't finish your thought here unless you go.

Nicole [00:05:03]: I mean, I was just going to say that I feel like if you genuinely think you're happy being polyamorous, then monogamous, that you just really haven't found somebody that fulfills those needs inside of you. Because it makes me feel like if you need more than one person in that way, then, like, you haven't found somebody that you feel fulfilled with.

John [00:05:29]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:30]: And she was talking about how, like, if you're polyamorous, you can have romantic relationships and connections with multiple people and it makes you feel more fulfilled. But I don't think that's necessarily true because I feel like then having dated and having had romantic interests in other people, that would feel fulfilling, but it never does.

John [00:05:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:52]: Like, and even with men, like, they think that they can just sleep with people because biologically, that's what their biology is telling them to do. So then when they do it, they still feel like they're missing that thing. Right. Like, it doesn't feel truly fulfilling.

John [00:06:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:06]: And you've been there. And, like, I've been searching for a relationship before you came along, and you were spreading your seed before I came along.

John [00:06:15]: And I'm a gentleman. I do know such things.

Nicole [00:06:19]: And so what I'm trying to say, though, is, is that we were both in the position where, like, it should have, according to her, been.

John [00:06:26]: It should have been like, this is optimal.

Nicole [00:06:28]: It should have been whatever, but it's not. And it's because there's that spiritual side of it that science doesn't take into account and kind of almost discredits because it's not provable, even though science isn't provable either. But that's a whole nother.

John [00:06:44]: Well, this part kind of science, like pseudoscience. Right. Like psychology.

Nicole [00:06:48]: Right. Where you're trying to understand the human mind, which it's like. Yeah, we also talked about that when we were talking about a lot of this. Is that how do you even know if someone's telling you the full truth or how they fully feel? Like, how do you even articulate that in a way? And how it could change. It could not change. You know, that's. It's kind of hard to quantify that and be like, this is the right way.

John [00:07:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:11]: Which. And again, like you said, she started the thing being like, fathers are important. And in the Congo, they're like the ones that take care of the baby half of the time. Literally half the time they do all these things, but you don't really need them at the end, you know, like, she's like, it doesn't really matter.

John [00:07:26]: So then they go off and start a new family. But they are animals, right? So it's like. And they're running off instincts. They don't have the cognitive ability and the spiritual aspect that we have as humans because we don't live like animals. All animals live like animals. You don't see animals that don't live like animals. There's no animals that are going around that I know of that are wearing clothes and typing on computers and making things besides primitive tools.

Nicole [00:07:54]: Right.

John [00:07:54]: And, you know, and having a language where they have decided how to communicate and how their society will work. And this is the Thing octopus cities, though.

Nicole [00:08:06]: Have you heard about those?

John [00:08:07]: No.

Nicole [00:08:08]: There's literally like two octopus cities or something that octopus have constructed. But octopus are also one of the octopi are one of the like most intelligent creatures.

John [00:08:20]: So. But the biology of it is. So I mean the question is like, are we a monogamous species? And I think that she presents some biology of it. And I think there are like, there's the biological components and then there's the spiritual components on top of that, what I'll call that. And so biologically, I don't even necessarily agree with her that we're non monogamous. I do think that biologically men are wired to want to spread their seed for genetic diversity. Right. So a man is visually wired, like biologically to be attracted to multiple women and to try and get with multiple women. Right. A woman doesn't have that same biological wiring. Not that a woman can't find different guys attractive, but when she has one man, she is generally like, not like, you see a guy with a shirt off, you're not like, oh, I need to go over there. Right. Whereas men, they're more ding. Right. However, women biologically are wired to seek emotional relationships outside of their relationship in a sense that. Well, but they have to resist that at a spiritual level, just like. Or you know, whatever. At a psychological level you could say. Because the proof of that's biological. Yeah. Is romance novels, romance stories, movies. Right. Women want to have, but I think.

Nicole [00:09:59]: They don't have it.

John [00:10:00]: I mean, yes, to the extent that they want, but you could say the same thing with men. If they don't have the attractive woman that they want, then are they, you know, But I just think that biologically women are. Are wired to seek that, to seek romance, just like. But it's something that has to be tamed, just like a man's desires have to be tamed.

Nicole [00:10:22]: But I think if you're getting romance in your relationship, that you're not seeking that.

John [00:10:27]: Yeah, I think that honestly. But you have to make that choice. You know what I'm saying? It's like, are you. Because women are still tempted by romance stories, right? Now again, it's not necessarily. We don't see it in a bad way unless it's excessive. Right. But women that are happily married will still want to watch romances. Right. And so what I'm saying is the biological wiring for the affinity for romance or the attraction towards romance is there equivalent to the biological wiring for the visual aspect of attraction to mental. Right. So it's like men Biologically are wired to be attracted to the physical element, right? Whereas women are biologically wired to be attracted to the emotional element. Both of those things as humans and not animals, we have to control to a degree, you know what I'm saying? Like, we have to live a way that we want to live. On top of that, we're not just ruled by our primitive desires.

Nicole [00:11:36]: Well, so we know how men do that. Like, not engaging in those behaviors, not searching for corn on the Internet, not, you know, googling random women. Like, you know, training themselves to appreciate what they have, right? What do you say that women do? Because I didn't think that you would go the romance way. Like, I get that women want romance, right? But I guess, like, obviously the romance novels we've talked about, like, that's not good. And it's actually gonna make you more unfulfilled in your relationship because you don't have that. Now you're comparing it. But what other thing are you saying that women need to tame in terms of that? Because it's also, like, makes me feel like women should. You're not saying this, but it makes it sound like women shouldn't want the emotional romance from their partner, right?

John [00:12:31]: I'm not saying.

Nicole [00:12:32]: I feel like that's just kind of a.

John [00:12:34]: No, they should want it only from their partner, right? So it's like, maybe it's better to compare not doing it, but compared to smut novels, right? In a sense, that's a better way to get the smut. Now, tick, tick tock. Book, book, talk, love you. But, you know, so. So basically, like, if you think of it this way, right? And here's the kind of world that we live in, right? So as a man, right, Our advertisers and marketers are smart, right? What's all over the fucking place that you cannot go somewhere and not see all over the place. You go to the gym, go to the pool, go just to your computer, tv, every, like. Well, yeah, but scantily clad women, boobs, butts, everywhere, right? Like, I mean, literally think about how many images of boobs and butts, right? Or, you know, of women that every human is exposed to every single day wherever you go, right? It's all over social media, it's all.

Nicole [00:13:34]: Over advertising, it's all over sexualized. Because, like, in Europe, they have a lot of, like, that sort of stuff. But it's not as, like, sexualized as I feel like it is here. I mean, they have, like topless beaches and stuff there.

John [00:13:48]: Yeah, but it's like, I mean, Regardless, it's like, it's. That's still indecent, right? So, like, it's like. I mean, they're trying to be like, we are superior. It's because we don't sexualize. No, but you still got. You're telling me that dude is like, oh, but those. Those tits, I don't care. They can see them any day. It's like, no. Yeah, but you can see them any day, everywhere, in every advertisement. But, you know, just because you've made a topless speech and tried to say that it's culturally appropriate, it doesn't. It's still sexualized, right? It's just not explicitly sexualized. But don't tell me guys are like, oh, boobs. I don't care about boobs. No, what I'm saying, though, is that the images are everywhere, and so a man has to actively resist that biology because marketers, advertisers, are smart. They use what they know. Right. And women are also purposely exploiting that weakness in men. Right? That biological weakness. Women don't have as much. Like, there's not romantic smut, like, in their peripheral all the time, but they can easily get addicted to smut novels and then have access to that and indulge in that. Right? Because it is easy for a woman to become addicted to those things, to romance novels, to smut novels. Why? Because it's lighting up the same thing that's lighting up for the man. It's. The only problem is that man is being exposed to this all the time, everywhere. Women aren't typically being exposed to it all the time, but definitely advertisers are smart when they advertise to women in certain ways as well, to the romance stories, to find that dissatisfaction with your relationship that makes you want more of this, of how it should be, the fantasy. You see what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:15:44]: That is how it should be.

John [00:15:46]: Well, yeah, but. But some of the depictions.

Nicole [00:15:50]: I think it's definitely how it should be.

John [00:15:52]: Well, I. I agree, but, you know, But. But some of the depictions are unrealistic.

Nicole [00:15:58]: Like aliens.

John [00:16:00]: You know, I'm not even saying aliens.

Nicole [00:16:01]: I'm just saying, like, even, like alien smut novels.

John [00:16:04]: Well, look. Yeah, alien smut novels, for sure. Yeah, but. But you get what I'm saying, right? So. So you have a biological component that is hardwired into men. You have a biological component that's hardwired into women, different weaknesses that they have. But both of those things have to be controlled. As a man, what do you do? You don't go and seek that out. You try to shield yourself from the thing. You don't go and look at it, you don't entertain it as a woman. Same thing. You just don't indulge yourself into this stuff. Yeah, you could read five books, hundred romance novels and get into smut novels and all these things. Right. And you choose to not do that, even though you might be pulled to that, especially if you start reading them. It's a trap. Right. So that's what I would say about the biology about that.

Nicole [00:16:56]: I thought you were going to more so go that women are biologically inclined to seek higher status men.

John [00:17:04]: That's true as well. Right. As we talked about last week with the rock star thing. Right. And so, yeah, so I guess that's the other thing is that women would have to resist the celebrity or the rock star. The status or a higher status man.

Nicole [00:17:22]: Is what you're saying, than the man that she's with.

John [00:17:24]: Yeah, but I think though, that's where it's kind of a weird thing. And maybe it is more of the psychological component. But when I coach guys, I'm always like, no, you're the highest status man this woman's ever seen in her life. Cause it doesn't even matter because you're higher status than a fucking rock star. Cause you're the fucking man. Right. You know what I mean? Mean, like you have to have that. If you're carrying that swagger with you everywhere you go, then your woman also believes that because you, you have. Because it's what you're projecting, the confidence. Yeah.

Nicole [00:17:54]: Like until you make it.

John [00:17:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:55]: Yeah, that's true though.

John [00:17:57]: Like, as a man, if I believe that you could do better than me, then then you should do better than me. Like, I don't believe you can. Like, I'm never going to believe that. I'm like, I'm the fucking shit. Right?

Nicole [00:18:06]: You know, you are the fucking shit.

John [00:18:08]: But I have to believe that.

Nicole [00:18:10]: Right?

John [00:18:11]: Otherwise, you know, otherwise where am I then? Then I. Then you're susceptible to the biology of the, of the status. But. But it doesn't mean that women have to always go after the highest status man they can and leave relationships with men that are of. And just like a man doesn't have to be like, oh well, that woman's harder than my woman, so I guess I better go and trade up. Like that's not also, you know, again, we don't necessarily operate like that. And there. And again, at the biological level, maybe your biology might be telling you some.

Nicole [00:18:45]: Of those things operate that way.

John [00:18:46]: Right. But at a psychological level, you have things like love. Right.

Nicole [00:18:52]: The spiritual level is what we said, the spiritual level.

John [00:18:54]: And love is saying that. Yeah, it's not worth, like, what I'm getting is so much better than what I could get, you know, like, it's not. It's not the. There's this intangible value that I'm getting that makes me happy, makes me fulfilled. Right, Right.

Nicole [00:19:14]: Yeah. I mean, we're not just strictly biological beings.

John [00:19:19]: Right. And that's what everyone gets wrong, talking.

Nicole [00:19:21]: About anything, especially relationships, in a biological way. Almost strictly biological way makes zero sense because it's not biological at all. I mean, it is to some degree, but I feel like really when you're. I guess that's the thing is, even last episode and this episode, you keep saying all these things like, no, you have to make a choice. But I feel like I'm not choosing. It's just what I know to be right. And so when you're like, oh, you have to choose to not want to be with a higher status man, I'm like, that's not even like in my mind. It's not even feels like in my biology at this point. Because the spiritual part and the like, knowing that you and I are meant to be together, which probably sounds woo woo to a lot of people, but I don't even care because it's like when you feel it, you know?

John [00:20:19]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:20]: And so. And it can't be explained through biology. It's not that you. I don't know, it's not like the things that you did biologically. It's that connection that you and I have. Like, yes, it is. Like, you don't do the things that you talked about. Like, you don't stare at women or you're not gonna leave me for like a hotter person and I'm not gonna leave you. But like, those things don't even pop up on the radar, if that makes sense. Because that spiritual part of it that a lot of people talking about relationships gets discarded or like, other, like, fears get thrown in. And it's like, you know, people are like, don't have joint bank accounts with your husband or wife. Like, what? Like, that's just fear. And I get where the fear stems from. And I get that we wanna make sense of things in life with biology so we can be like, no, this is the exact way you do this.

John [00:21:18]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:18]: But you can't really do that. And I know we're sitting here and we're trying to do the best that we can to Help people.

John [00:21:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:24]: Get to where you and I are and you can, I think you can do that. There's not a step by step guide we can give people. No, we can just talk about what we're doing and what's worked for us and where we're at. And people might not believe that we're in the place that we're at, but we are. And so if you do believe it and you do want it, you can listen to what we're saying and put that into action for yourself or I don't know, stick to the biology if you want, but that's not gonna give you the full picture, right?

John [00:21:54]: Yeah. You can't use biology as the excuse and be like this is just how we're wired or how things are supposed to be. Just like. Well, that's what I was talking about too is we live in an artificial world, right? So in the natural world before, you know, there wasn't fast food and there wasn't refined sugar, right? And so in that natural world, if you just ate how you felt as a human instinctually based on your biology, you'd probably do pretty good. You'd probably eat the right stuff, probably wouldn't get fat, probably wouldn't get heart disease, right? Probably. Okay. We also live in an artificial world of butts and boobs, right? And so you can't fast food it like, you know, like you still have to constrain yourself. We live in a world where every indulgence is available to us from a bylaw craving. There are plenty of smut novels, there are plenty of things that women can get caught up in or are validation. She can get from dming rock stars on Instagram and their response respond back. Right. But you don't just go after all those things because it is an artificial world. You can't go by just on your, your instinct or feelings. Right, but, but to the point that you're saying when you have a relationship like we do, that is so deep on that psychological, spiritual level, then those biological urges, you can't even hear them anymore, they're still there because it's in our biology, but we're not viewing them, we're not hearing them.

Nicole [00:23:26]: They are muted.

John [00:23:27]: They're muted. That's the thing about it. And so that's what's possible, is to have those things be muted, right? And so you're not subject to your bio. Just like if someone is like, you know, when someone's like, oh, I'm overweight because it's genetic, I'm hungry all the time. And, like, I just have to eat. Yeah. You have a biology that's driving you for hunger. Right. And maybe yours is more than other people, but the reason why you're £500 is because you're eating McDonald's three times a day. Like, it's like you're making choices. Yeah, you could be hungry and eat food, but the choices that you're making are causing your result. You're not just subject to your biology. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:09]: People don't want it to be their fault.

John [00:24:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:11]: They want to blame it on something, something that's out of their control.

John [00:24:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:15]: And I think even with relationships, they want to blame being attracted to somebody else or doing something like that or being addicted to smut novels or, I don't know, whatever it is on something else that it doesn't have to be their choice. Like, it doesn't have to be their fault.

John [00:24:31]: Right, Right.

Nicole [00:24:32]: But like you said, it is your choice and it is your responsibility to cultivate the relationship that you want, not just be like, well, biologically, men are going to stare at women, and so as a society, we should be fine with that. Or biologically, women are going to want to seek out romance. So you just have to deal with it and whatever. Because I feel like if you give in to those things and plenty of people do, women become disinterested in sex with a man that is sex craved for other people, not his wife. And men become less romantic when their wife is obsessed with romance novels or romance movies or, like, getting that fix from somewhere else.

John [00:25:17]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:18]: And so that has become normalized rather than, you know, harnessing the spiritual part. And it's also, like, validated in a way by biology being like. Or science being like, well, this is how we're biologically wired. Like, it's fine. Like, how many times have you heard the excuse that men seeking out women in multiple ways is just their biology?

John [00:25:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:25:44]: So many times.

John [00:25:44]: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, it's like, okay, do you shave your armpits?

Nicole [00:25:49]: No.

John [00:25:49]: Yes, you do.

Nicole [00:25:51]: You like them.

John [00:25:53]: I mean, like. But what I'm saying is that, like, biologically you have hair that grows under your arms.

Nicole [00:25:59]: Yeah.

John [00:25:59]: So are we good? Like, no one makes the argument. Oh, I mean, some people do make the argument, but. But as a society, we're not like, oh, I mean, it's just biology, so why would we not? Why?

Nicole [00:26:10]: Some people do.

John [00:26:11]: I mean, some people do, but what I'm saying is that it's like, you shave your legs, you shave your armpits. As a woman, right? It's like, yeah, the biology is, is other than that. But we don't ever make the argument like, oh, it's ridiculous to shave your armpits because that's the biology. That's the same argument that I hear when people are like, oh, it's ridiculous to expect men to be faithful or to not look, because it's biology. Yeah, but we don't do everything according to biology. That's my whole point. It's like, if we did everything according to biology, then we would just be animals and we just do whatever the fuck we want. And then we're like, oh, I mean, he got angry and he killed someone. So, I mean, it's biology, right? It's like, why are you gonna throw them in prison? Like, it's. That's just what happens. Like, you get angry, you kill people, you know, or, you know, hit them. That's just biology, right? It's like you can't use that's just biology for any other excuse, right? For any other part of society. We never excuse criminals because. Criminals, because it's biology, right? We don't like, you know, not wear clothes and, you know, shit in our yards because it's biology. Like, we do other things that are against the, quote, biology, because it's better, because we're evolved, because we're humans, because we have a higher level of thinking. Not the animal brain that, you know, we have a cerebral cortex that's on top of the animal brain. That's where we have our willpower and our decision making. That and our language abilities that sit above it, which is. That's the spiritual, the higher level.

Nicole [00:27:37]: Right, right.

John [00:27:38]: And so that's why, like, it's such a stupid argument of, yeah, we're not monogamous because it's our biology. I disagree that that's even the case in the biology. Because part of biology is mate guarding, right? And we are biologically wired to be extremely jealous when someone tries to take our mate. So if you're monogamous, why would you care?

Nicole [00:28:00]: Right?

John [00:28:02]: Except for paternity, if you're non monogamous, I mean, yeah, if you're non monogamous, why would you care? Yeah, exactly, yeah. The paternity aspect of the gene, of genetics, sure, I get that part. But like, why does it matter if you're non if you're biologically not? There must be some monogamous element of our biology in order to have that reaction.

Nicole [00:28:23]: Honestly, I feel like it. The polyamorous being our natural biological way was Invented by a man, I would think, in order to promote men going out and being able to do more things. Because I do. I'm not saying that there aren't any polyamorous women, but women, I feel like, are biologically geared more towards relationships. And it's like, that's where they feel most, like, connected and loved. And again, it goes back to the spiritual part of, like, loved. Like, women are way more likely to be happy with one man that they love and they care about and they respect.

John [00:29:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:08]: But a man could love and care about and respect his woman and still cheat on her. So it's like, in that sense, like, I don't think it's all biology because, again, women. There are women that are in polyamorous relationships or whatever. But like you said, I think, though, that men and women are yin and yang, like we've talked about before. And you need two halves to make a whole. That's two people. That's not four or five or whatever. You can't make a yin and yang with that many people. You can make separate ones, but it's like two halves make the whole in this sense, in a relationship. And it doesn't have to be just a heterosexual relationship, but it's. To me, it just doesn't really make sense to have these other outlying pieces.

John [00:30:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:01]: Because you're not gonna have a whole. You're not gonna create a new unit.

John [00:30:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:06]: And you can create, like, a family unit can have multiple people, but really at the core of that is still the parents.

John [00:30:14]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:15]: So just in my mind, when she was talking about it, it more so seemed like someone somewhere came up there, used this science to promote this new age way of, like, no, we don't have to live just to a couple. It can be one person with multiple wives. And you've seen that in other religions or countries and things like that. They have multiple wives. But not once have I seen that where people seem actually happier. And in that podcast, she said they are happier, and I don't believe that. I feel like you more. So see, the happiest people, which are people who genuinely found their soulmate or someone they want to spend the rest of their lives with, and they do that, and they're happy the entire time.

John [00:31:01]: Well, I mean, there's a biological, like, history or reason for, like, the polygamous relationships that. That is under. Under certain circumstances, there's like, there's a lot of biology that is under certain circumstances. Right. So back in the day, Right. When a lot of men were killed in Warfare. And there was a high amount of women to men ratio and women were not working and sustaining themselves like and, and, and not even just from a political standpoint. Right. Like, we have to remember that it's not that women were suppressed necessarily, it's that we didn't have the technological advancement where, where, like where you could sustain yourself without having one person dedicated to taking care of the household and cooking and taking care of the children and another person going out and hunting and killing. And you know what that like, now we have a, we go to the supermarket, we get meat. We, you know, we, we can do desk jobs and make money and you know, so, so there was an element of that. Right. And so women couldn't just survive on their own back in that. At that time. Yeah. Now women could survive on their own. That's fine. Right. But back then in our history, women couldn't survive on their own. Right. They needed a man. Right. As. And if a man had a lot of resources, then multiple women, that man kind of was under a duty or obligation to take care of multiple women. But also those relationships were more about a survival type of relationship. Right. And so there's a biological component where a man could take care of and have multiple women and women would be accepting of that situation. We can even see it now, like we were talking about last episode with Rock Stars. Like, a woman will share, a lot of women will share a man that's high enough value, that has enough status and resources because it's biologically. But a man would never do that. Right. Because there's a biological difference. However, it doesn't point to non monogamy as a default. It points to it that under certain circumstances we are wired in such a way that in order for the population to survive the species, we are wired.

Nicole [00:33:16]: For survival, not for monogamy. And so if you're going to make that argument, then it's, we're just wired to survive.

John [00:33:25]: Yeah. And that's a lot of like the root biology is wired to survive. There's a really good book called Sperm wars that talks about the evolutionary biology in sexuality. And there's a lot of evolutionary adaptations that have occurred, such as like the shape of the penis as a shovel. To shovel out a shovel. Yeah, like to shovel out other sperm from other competitors.

Nicole [00:33:53]: When was this?

John [00:33:55]: When did this happen? Yeah, I mean, this is how it's.

Nicole [00:33:58]: Now shaped like a shovel.

John [00:33:59]: Yeah. The head, like it's like not like a full shovel.

Nicole [00:34:04]: I guess I'm like literally imagining, you know, those like sharks that have kind of like a shovel shaped head. Like it's not a hammerhead shark. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they have like a shovel shaped head.

John [00:34:12]: Yeah, it's not quite, you know, I.

Nicole [00:34:14]: Wouldn'T call it a shovel, but I can see what you're saying.

John [00:34:16]: But it serves that purpose. It serves that.

Nicole [00:34:19]: Well then what did it look like before?

John [00:34:20]: No, no, that's what it. I like, that's. Oh, it's always been for humans. Like. Yeah, but I mean different, you know, dogs are like, you know, there's like different Our horses, it's like.

Nicole [00:34:32]: I think it looks more like a mushroom.

John [00:34:33]: Huh. Yeah, well, I mean, I know it is.

Nicole [00:34:38]: Shovel.

John [00:34:38]: You're the purpose of it.

Nicole [00:34:39]: You're literally thinking about shovel.

John [00:34:41]: That's.

Nicole [00:34:41]: That sounds really painful.

John [00:34:43]: Yeah, but there's certain. Sorry, you distracted me now. But yeah, but I mean there's different things that occur and even in terms of ovulation and women's are more likely to orgasm with a man they're cheating with than the. What the reason biologically for that is because it's for genetic diversity is because if she is pursuing a short term rendezvous with a higher genetic potential mate as opposed to the provider mate, then orgasm actually increases the likelihood of conception. And so that's why that happened. Also when a man cheats, his sperm count is higher with the woman that he cheats with. Which again these are biological mechanisms. So that again it doesn't. Because it's going to sound like. Okay, that sounds pretty non monogamous.

Nicole [00:35:57]: It sounds like you're proving the point.

John [00:35:58]: But okay, so biologically I don't think we're non monogamous. But biologically are we wired to cheat? Yes. Like that is in our biology. Again, that doesn't mean we do it right. Just like we're biologically wired that when we get angry we get violent. But we don't. Doesn't mean that we do it right. But what I'm saying is that that's how these things have evolved, right? These are real facts about human reproduction. Like sperm volume and stuff is measured in those situations.

Nicole [00:36:35]: You think we're biologically programmed to cheat just to reproduce and populate the world? Because it doesn't sound like really it's for. I mean it just sounds like for.

John [00:36:48]: Reproduction, for genetic advantage. Yeah, right.

Nicole [00:36:52]: So it's just like do you get married just to genetically reproduce? Are you polyamorous just to genetically reproduce? Well, okay, that's the thing is like.

John [00:37:01]: Yeah, there's, there's.

Nicole [00:37:03]: They're using biology. But yes, a lot of people get married to have children and create a family. But it's like monogamous people don't typically go down that. I mean, polyamorous people don't typically go down that road to be like, no, I'm gonna start a family with all these people. Unless it was way back in the day when they were just trying to survive.

John [00:37:25]: Right? But the wiring is there, right? There's another good called mean genes, right? Or actually there's one called, I think, the selfish gene. Right. I think that's Dawkins. But it talks about how the gene, your genetics, are just trying to replicate itself. And there's a lot of studies and there's different pieces of this where you. Depending on your genetic relation to someone, like a cousin or something like that, then that's where they think that the idea of compromising or working together came from. Is like, okay, well, if I can't pass on my genes, my cousin has some of my genes, so I'm willing to sacrifice myself in order for my cousin to survive in order to pass on some of our genetic material. So it's like the genes are hijacking your brain, your system by default. But you as a human obviously override those things to a degree, right? So.

Nicole [00:38:25]: Well, yeah. And I think too, it's like, you can't go strictly based on your biology because then every woman should have kids, right? That's what we have all these parts for, right? Like, that's biologically what we're supposed to do, right?

John [00:38:43]: As many as possible.

Nicole [00:38:43]: And a lot of women now don't even want to have any kids at all. So it's like, you can't. Again, I guess it just feels like cherry picking things to promote a certain narrative. Harmful. I think to use biology to support these things when especially relationships is not strictly biology.

John [00:39:04]: Exactly. There's a social construct on top of that.

Nicole [00:39:06]: There's tons of parents, too, that don't connect with their kid the way that they biologically should.

John [00:39:12]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:13]: Like, there's so many outliers, even with this biological science that they're bringing in to support their claims. That again, I feel like it's harmful to try to include polyamory so that it doesn't feel like an outlier while diminishing monogamy, if that makes sense. Honestly, how I feel is people can do whatever they want to do, but to promote that they're happier with multiple partners. There's just a part of me that genuinely doesn't believe that, like, if for this part of their life, they want to be Polyamorous. And they're enjoying that. I believe that. I believe that they can be in that stage of their life. But having, again, having, like, dated and tried to find, like, the person and, like, dated around until you came along, none of even those other relationships or any part of that was better than being with you. And so, again, I just feel like it's harmful to be like, well, biologically, we're not monogamous, and so these people are happier. Like, are they happier? I think they're also trying to promote their situation that they're in. And, like, maybe people think that that's what we're doing. But again, I think if you go back to see older couples that have been together for a really long time, or couples just in general, where you can tell they genuinely love each other and they love being with each other, you can tell that they're happier.

John [00:40:47]: Right? Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:49]: And so they don't even have to sit here and tell you on a podcast like this. You can experience it. And I feel like people who are in our lives have experienced it, right? So I don't know. I just. I don't really like the whole pushing a narrative and then trying to back it up with biology when there's plenty of outliers to biology. And like you said, there's plenty of things that we should be fighting biology on because we shouldn't be going around acting. Acting like a bunch of crazy animals, right? That, you know, it's actually more harmful to try to use science to get people to believe it in order to push this other narrative that isn't even really backed up by anything.

John [00:41:32]: Just because it's biological or natural doesn't mean it's good. That's the thing that, you know, because it's like, I mean, even animal. Even dogs, right? We're not like, oh, I mean, don't train the dog. That's against the biology. Like, just let it do whatever it wants, shit wherever it wants, piss wherever it wants.

Nicole [00:41:50]: We wouldn't even have them inside if that's not part of their normal nature, right?

John [00:41:55]: So we, like, train a dog, right? Dog behaves. We give the dog command. Like, we're resisting the natural biology, right? But there's also a part of the natural biology that makes a dog trainable, right? But what I'm saying is that we don't just accept that in humans. We don't accept that in dogs. So we're just going to accept that in humans and use that as an excuse. It doesn't make sense. It's Important to understand to some degree the biology so you can understand what you're dealing with. Right. And what things that you have to overcome potentially. Right. And what also your partner might struggle with. Right. Because it's different struggle. Like I said, a woman needs to understand that she's not biologically wired the same as a man because she doesn't understand why it is. Why it is more difficult for a man to be, you know, to be not distracted by, you know, women in butts and boobs. Right. Because she doesn't have any problem with that. So she's like, well, he must just be a piece of shit. Well, the same thing. A man needs to understand why women are biologically wired to, you know, to seek out high status men or to seek romance and that kind of thing, because otherwise he doesn't understand the struggle of that. You know what I'm saying? So those things are good to know, but it doesn't excuse the behavior and it doesn't mean that we are subject only to our biology and that we shouldn't judge people because they're like, okay, well, it's just the biology, because that's not true. Right. And that's the thing.

Nicole [00:43:25]: Yeah, no, I agree with you. It is not like it's not good information to have. I just feel like it's bad when you act like that's the only information you need. Right, yeah, that's my problem is like, that's not the only information you need. And honestly, even us doing our podcast, it's like, will we ever be able to fully explain it? Or will we ever be able to give everyone all the keys, all the steps? No, but it's like we have cracked a lot of the code, including, I feel like this. But relationships are one of those things. Like you said. How do you even scientifically quantify a relationship? Like, you really can't, because you can't really tell what someone's thinking. They can tell you.

John [00:44:12]: Right?

Nicole [00:44:13]: You can hope they're telling the truth. You can give them a lie detector or something. But even then, does a lie detector actually work? Who knows? So it's like you have to just find couples and people that you trust and trust that are telling you the truth and trust that want to help you and trust that they're experiencing this happiness that they want you to experience, rather than listening to some scientists be like, yeah, well, you know, polyamorous people are really the happiest because then they're just spreading their love to everybody. It's like, okay, but like, as a person you should be spreading your love to people, but that doesn't mean your romantic love you. You don't have to have multiple romantic partners to be happier.

John [00:44:57]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:58]: And so I guess that's my whole spiel on it.

John [00:45:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:03]: Kind of like. I don't know what else I would add, but it just bothered me that it was so black and white. When relationships are the furthest thing from black and white, it's.

John [00:45:14]: Yeah, well, and there's a contradiction there too, which is like, again, I don't care which side of the coin you fall on, but contradictions I don't like. Right. So it's like if you're like, okay, well, biology says this so that I didn't say it. It's like, we're non monogamous by biology, so that's how we should really be. Well, okay, if that same person is like, whoa, homosexuality is biological and it's perfectly normal, then it's like, well, but this doesn't fit in this. So, like, you know, like, I'm okay with that if that's what a person wants to choose. But you can't use the argument of biology. You see what I'm saying? Because that's not biologically natural. It doesn't work that way. That's not how we're wired. We can't reproduce through a homosexual relationship. Our species is not created in that way. Moral judgments aside, that doesn't matter. I'm not trying to make a moral judgment. You can do whatever you want as a, as a human being. I don't care. But what I'm saying is, if you're trying to use a biological argument, but you're trying to have it both ways. That, that I can't stand. Like, you got to pick one.

Nicole [00:46:16]: Say that it's not, not biological, like, it's what we're saying. It's not strictly.

John [00:46:21]: No one would argue that. That homosexual relationships reproduce.

Nicole [00:46:27]: Right?

John [00:46:27]: No one would argue that. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it doesn't make sense.

Nicole [00:46:30]: Proving the point that it's not based all on biology.

John [00:46:33]: Right? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like, if you want to say it's all based on biology, then you have to by default be against homosexual relationships because you would say, well, that's not compatible with the biology. What I'm saying is that it's not all based on biology. There's another component that's higher than that. Right. And that's why. Exactly. And that's the thing. You just can't Be in contradiction. You have to choose what level you're living at. If you're living at just biology, then let's let your dog do whatever. Don't train your dog right. And you probably run around naked as a human. That's your biology.

Nicole [00:47:06]: But I think people that are genuinely in happy, good relationships know that it's a spiritual element because you can feel it when you're in that sort of relationship, you can feel it. And this lady, I think she's married and she had a kid or something. I think even maybe she understands that. But then when you are a scientist and you can't back that up with science, what do you preach? You're gonna preach your science so that you have credibility in your career rather than things that can't be proven that people can be skeptical of. But I think everybody knows who have been in love, like, really been in love, that it's a spiritual. It's not just biological. Like, it's not just that you smell good. Like, yes, there is some of that component attraction.

John [00:47:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:56]: But it's not just, like, I smelt him. I like the smell. He is mine now. Like, it's not caveman status. And even caveman people probably didn't use just biology. They used. They didn't even know what biology was.

John [00:48:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:09]: You know, they met a nice other cave woman, and they were like, let's make babies, and then, you know, whatever. But like you said, or they formed, like, a team where the caveman went hunting, and then she stayed at home and took care of the kids, and he would come back and, like, made sure that he still had his woman. And, like, she's not having babies with somebody else, or. You know what I mean? So, like, it's more layers, and it's always been more layers, and it always will be more layers than just biology. Like, yes, you can use biology to make sense of some of the urges and desires that you might have, but that doesn't mean that just because it's biological that it's right or, like, what you should do or, you know, I mean, that's, like. Just doesn't. It doesn't make a lot of sense when you talk about something as. As intricate as relationships to be like, well, this is what biology says, so. And then leave it at that. Like, she didn't really talk at all about the spiritual part. It was strictly. And I mean, again, I think it's because she's an anthropologist, right? She doesn't want to lose her credibility, so she goes more scientific. But then again, she didn't even really talk about, like, the studies that these things came from either. So again, it's hard to. It's just like, again, I feel like it was more damaging to relationships than what she even intended. Because like you said, she started it talking about how important it was for fathers to be in their children's lives. And then by the end, it was like, well, you don't really need men. You know, these are.

John [00:49:47]: He was kind of caught her in a trap because she was like, oh, well, like, yeah. Cause what she said didn't make sense, right?

Nicole [00:49:55]: So it's like. And I think because we're trying to, like, include all these different things again, like, I don't care what people do. That's not my life. It's not my problem. But I think it is harmful when you try to include every single thing in what you're talking about, because then you just confuse people.

John [00:50:16]: Cause some things are better than other things.

Nicole [00:50:18]: Right?

John [00:50:18]: And that act.

Nicole [00:50:19]: You can have whatever you want. You can have whatever situation that you want in life, but you can't act like they're all equally as good.

John [00:50:26]: No.

Nicole [00:50:27]: Because we know multiple, like, people out there probably have relationships that aren't that great.

John [00:50:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:50:34]: Like, we don't know anybody personally that I can think of that has, like, a bad relationship. But it's like. But maybe they. You know what I mean? Like, there's.

John [00:50:45]: But we won't call them out.

Nicole [00:50:45]: But there's some people that, you know, aren't in a happy relationship. And then there are people that are in a really happy relationship. And then, you know, there might be some polyamorous people who are happy, but are they really happy? Are they, like, what level are they? You can't quantify that in a way that biology will give you a set answer.

John [00:51:08]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:08]: You know what I mean? Like, that's not biological to even conduct that as a study. Because how do you really know? Like, and I guess I. I mean this in a way of, like, before I met you, there are people I could have been with that I could have had a happy life. Sure.

John [00:51:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:26]: And at that time, because I didn't know what you and I could have. It could have seemed like the top.

John [00:51:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:34]: But then when you came along, I was like, nothing else will ever compare. I still feel that way. Nothing else. And I know that for sure. I don't have to go searching for it, but I'm like 100% certain.

John [00:51:44]: Right?

Nicole [00:51:44]: So people could still be. They could be taking these studies and they're still in this other area where they genuinely believe that they're at the top of what they could have, but they don't even know that they're not.

John [00:51:55]: But they don't know. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:51:56]: And so that's why it's just so harmful, in my opinion, to be like, this is the science, when it's not science. You can even understand. Because I didn't even understand that I could be this happy in a relationship and have this sort of relationship until you came along and we had it, right? So, like, you can't sit here and tell me that polyamorous people are happier when you can't even really quantify because you don't know where the person's at. You don't know where they're at in their happiness, level of potential. They have.

John [00:52:27]: They're like, I don't like mangoes. And they're like, but have you ever had a Costa Rican mango? And they're like, no, but I don't like it. Like, yeah, but if you had a Costa Rican mango, you wouldn't say that, right?

Nicole [00:52:38]: Yeah, you just like, maybe you haven't gotten there.

John [00:52:41]: Yeah, exactly. So.

Nicole [00:52:42]: And I think it's better to say things like, maybe I haven't met the right person yet, rather than be like, you're better. You're happier if you're polyamorous.

John [00:52:52]: You know what I mean? All the good things we do that we consider good are things that are against our biology, by the way, right? Like, you know, our biology, it's like, be lazy. That's not a good thing. Our biology is, eat whatever you want. That's not a good thing. Like, we have. We admire discipline as a good thing, right? Our biology is, you know, say whatever you want, right? You know, like, be emotional, whatever. But we do not consider those to be good things. So everything, you know, so you could make the argument that we're non monogamous, that we have some non monogamous tendencies by our biology. I could. I could, Right. Like we talked about some of those. But that doesn't make it a good thing, right?

Nicole [00:53:31]: It doesn't make it the right thing. Like, doesn't make it the path that we should go down.

John [00:53:34]: Everything else that is, you know, that we consider to be good. Discipline, self respect and, you know, control. Self control and all these things, we consider those to be good things which are against. We consider them to be good because they're against our biology, you know, so that's the thing about it, is that.

Nicole [00:53:53]: And I'm not saying that science is bad. I just Want to put that out there? I'm not saying that science is bad. I won't say how I actually feel about science, but I don't feel like it's bad. I feel like it has done a lot of good things for us as humans and it will continue as well. But I think when you're talking about something as spiritual as relationships, any relationship, it cannot be explained with science.

John [00:54:20]: No, you can't fully. Yeah, there's no way we don't operate at that level. We operate at a societal level, at a higher level of consciousness. I mean, that's the thing is, like, if you look at the whole levels of consciousness, Right. Science is actually at level 500 with that. What is the chart called? Levels of consciousness. Trying to remember the author's name and I can't remember his. Stephen. I don't know. I don't know.

Nicole [00:54:50]: I know what book you're talking about, but I can't remember the title or the author.

John [00:54:53]: Yeah, there we go. Can't remember the title or the author. We'll see. I mean, when AI makes the show notes, I think it'll know the guy. Levels of consciousness. You got it there. Go grok. You can do it.

Nicole [00:55:05]: You'll see.

John [00:55:07]: But the idea is science caps out at least level 500, I think. And then above that is like, love, which is at like 600. And then like, I didn't even know.

Nicole [00:55:16]: Science was on there.

John [00:55:17]: It is. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's reason is what. But. But above that, there's higher levels of consciousness that are beyond just the reason logic, science level.

Nicole [00:55:28]: Right, right.

John [00:55:29]: And if you just go to that level. Yeah. You can accomplish a lot of things, evolve a lot as a human being. But beyond that is where the true. You know the truth.

Nicole [00:55:39]: When you realize you are everything and nothing.

John [00:55:42]: Yes. The void, the enlightenment level. But, yeah, so, yeah, I think that's.

Nicole [00:55:51]: I mean, I feel better expressing my truth.

John [00:55:55]: Yeah, yeah. There was something else that I think is. I was trying to remember about the. Yeah, Because. Yeah, because there's a lot of components of it where I think the biggest thing is that just people, they use the biology as the argument, but they don't think about the higher level about it.

Nicole [00:56:12]: But I think it's just to push their agenda. Honestly, I think whenever the science part is used in relation to anything that involves spiritual aspects as well, it's just to push their narrative. That's how I feel. And maybe people think that I'm pushing our narrative. They can believe what they want, but I think we've Made a pretty logical as well as spiritual explanation for why you can't just go based off of biology when you're using something that incorporates many, maybe even more things than even spirituality. Spirituality. Spirituality and biology together. You know what I mean? Like, it's a bunch of different components. Because, again, you have to think logically. It's not even just biologically. You have to think logically when you're picking a partner. You have to think spiritually. You have to think about so many different things.

John [00:57:09]: And what traits do we desire in our relationships, in our interactions with humans? Even with a dog's instinct is to dig. We have to train a dog against its instinct to dig because we don't want it digging up everything. Right. We don't want it chewing up the couch and all the stuff. And so we train specifically against it. And it's the same thing as humans. We train out the things that are undesirable.

Nicole [00:57:36]: Also, like, if a dog is domesticated, it doesn't have to dig. It doesn't have to scrounge for food. It doesn't have to do those things. So you teach it that it's safe. And again, in relationships, it's like, you don't have to, as a woman, search read all these romance books. If your partner's giving that to you, it's safe. It's safe to trust that he's gonna provide that for you. And vice versa. With men, it's like, that's how it should be viewed rather than, you know, pushing. Again, I feel it. I just feel like it's pushing a narrative.

John [00:58:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:58:10]: And that whole episode was kind of actually confusing because it was pushing multiple narratives to try to include all the narratives.

John [00:58:16]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:17]: Although check all the boxes saying even to not include.

John [00:58:22]: No, no.

Nicole [00:58:22]: But it's like, the thing, though, is, is when you get to a point where you're trying to include everyone, you muddle your own message a lot of the time.

John [00:58:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:32]: And so that's where I'm coming from. And also, it wasn't very credible seeming because there wasn't even studies or, you know, she didn't even talk about how they're actually measuring that they're happier, like I mentioned, or any of those things.

John [00:58:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:58:46]: And especially I feel like men listening to those things might think that, oh, I can go do whatever I want, because they think more logically, not emotionally. Women might listen to that and be like, that doesn't really make a lot of sense. The emotional part is missing. It's not just do this because I'm a human, we all have emotions. Men have emotions, women have emotions. We're not just biology. Brain. Right, exactly either. So it's like you can't explain this in that way when that's not even who we are as a whole. But who can even know who we are as a whole because it's such a vast thing.

John [00:59:29]: And it's also like, there's also kind of a component of happiness, you could say, versus fulfillment, which is more mean. Like, we don't always just chase happiness. We don't always chase things that make us feel good in the moment. Right. We delay gratification for long term success, for things that are fulfilling to us. The same thing I could say about the food. We don't just eat everything we want to because it will cause us harm. But you could say, well, you're happier if you just eat whatever you want. For the short term, yeah, but, but in the long term, you don't end up being that you're not fulfilled. You feel like crap, like you don't feel good. So, you know, it's like you're happier in those moments. And sure, if you indulge in all of your, you know. Yeah. Then yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna have momentary happiness that exceeds the happiness of the base level of people who don't do that, who are disciplined and do things that are hard, that they don't necessarily want to do or, you know, or control themselves. But you're definitely not gonna be as fulfilled.

Nicole [01:00:33]: I feel like when you feed one, you harm the other one.

John [01:00:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:37]: If you feed your biological urges, you harm your spiritual urges and things that you want and vice versa. Like sometimes when you fulfill your spiritual one, you're harming something else in return, you know, so it's a trade off. Like you can't make a choice without some sort of consequence. And you have to figure out what choices you want to make. And that's why thinking about those things and thinking about relationships in general is not something that should be taken lightly. It involves a lot of things. And so again, I guess that's why it bothers me with, like, this is the cookie cutter way to happiness in relationships. Like, no, it's way more complicated.

John [01:01:26]: Yeah. Yeah. So, all right, I think we're at the end of it. Yeah.

Nicole [01:01:33]: Put it all out there and we.

John [01:01:35]: Still got nothing, you know?

Nicole [01:01:38]: Gonna keep it that way.

John [01:01:39]: We'll keep it that way. Yes. Yeah. Come, come follow us on.

Nicole [01:01:44]: Come follow us.

John [01:01:45]: Come follow us. Yes. You know, join the cult on our journey, but go Check out that this.

Nicole [01:01:51]: Probably episode did seem a little like woo woo.

John [01:01:54]: I mean it is a little. We're a little woo woo. So but it's okay. We get to be a little woo woo. So. But yeah. Follow us on betterthanperfectpod.com subscribe to the website social medias.

Nicole [01:02:09]: Social media like, and subscribe.

John [01:02:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:11]: Share with your friends.

John [01:02:12]: Leave a review, you know, do all the things. Send us an email.

Nicole [01:02:16]: Yeah. Talk to us.

John [01:02:18]: Yeah. And if you're in San Diego and you want to be on the podcast, let us know. Yeah. And you got some kind of act or something like that act.

Nicole [01:02:26]: Bring your talent show.

John [01:02:26]: A good one. Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:27]: Bring your talent show.

John [01:02:27]: Talent show. If you want to audition for the podcast. Right.

Nicole [01:02:31]: He's kidding.

John [01:02:32]: I'm not though. Like, you gotta. We're just gonna let any Yahoo on here.

Nicole [01:02:36]: No, but you don't have to audition. You just have to.

John [01:02:39]: You gotta impress us at least. You gotta be like, okay, yeah, we're.

Nicole [01:02:43]: Not super hard to impress.

John [01:02:45]: I'm trying to sell it. Like, what did we just talk about? About people don't want stuff that is easy. Right. You're ruining it. We are hard to going to scare. It's very freaking hard to get on this show.

Nicole [01:02:55]: John's like making it hard and I'm like, you're going to scare them. No one's going to reach out because they're going to be scared. They're like, this question isn't good enough.

John [01:03:03]: That's right. Yeah. You got to bring your aame heard John. That's it. All right, we'll see you next week. Take care. Bye. Through every F we find.