David [00:00:00]: We're all going to fight. So it's like, how can you understand your own process so you know each other's fight language so you can come together quicker. Some people just don't have the tools. And then that's how, like, relationships get destroyed. We know in an argument, I'm going to need space to process for her, she processes through verbalizing, and this happened just this last week. She got frustrated. Something asked me about it. I was trying to process. I didn't respond verbally. And then she spiraled, and then I spiraled back into my pattern. And a simple, hey, babe, I just need to process this before I speak. Like, could have potentially stopped that.

Alyssa [00:00:34]: I'm in the moment. Like, these are all the things that we're going to talk about. And for him, if he just acknowledges at least, like, hey, you know, I need a business day to process, then he has fulfilled what I need, which is knowing that we're going to get back to this.

John [00:00:47]: Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. And we actually have some guests here today. I know we don't do guests very often, but David and Alyssa, and, yeah, we're gonna talk about just a lot of different topics around fight conversations and some intimacy, getting a deeper intimacy, kind of common issues that men and women face in their relationship. So, yeah, welcome, guys.

Nicole [00:01:36]: Yeah, thank you.

David [00:01:37]: Excited to be here and just share whatever we can to help other people on the journey.

Nicole [00:01:41]: Yeah, that's what it's all about.

John [00:01:43]: So I heard that you did that you're a Spartan racer as well.

David [00:01:47]: Yes, I'm an OG that's getting back into it.

John [00:01:50]: Okay. Okay.

David [00:01:51]: I started 10 years ago when they used, like, the pugu sticks or whatever and, like, used to beat people at the end. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:59]: That's crazy.

John [00:01:59]: The gauntlet, or that.

David [00:02:01]: That was just, like, the ending of it, but getting back into it. Did the Hawaii Trifecta last week or last year.

John [00:02:07]: Okay.

David [00:02:08]: And Alyssa did it, too. Her very first Spartan.

Nicole [00:02:11]: That's awesome.

Alyssa [00:02:11]: Thank you.

David [00:02:12]: And we got the kids involved, too, so that was an awesome memory.

John [00:02:15]: And the trifecta. That's the. Is it the. Is it the length or is it doing the. All three of the.

David [00:02:21]: Doing all three in the weekend.

John [00:02:22]: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. So that's the, like, the 5k, the 10k, and then what's the one after the 10k?

David [00:02:29]: The 12k east.

John [00:02:31]: Okay, the. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, Yeah, I went to the. The 10k. One. Yeah, I guess the super.

David [00:02:38]: Yeah.

John [00:02:38]: And that's where I wrecked myself. I tore my. My bicep on the. On the monkey bar. Like, you know, where you got to ring the bell. Like, I just heard a pop. And I was. And I knew I was. You know, that was messed up. But I kept going. I was like, okay, I can use the other arm. And then on the sandbag carry, I just. For some stupid reason, I decided to jog down the hill. I was like, I can get down there faster. And I slipped. And there was a metal bar they had that was, you know, roping off the thing, and it just went right into my knee. And it didn't go through the skin, but it. It severed my quad tendon. So I just had surgery for that. So. Yeah, so that was my first spartan experience. It might be my last. I don't know. We'll see.

David [00:03:17]: Sounds like a gladiator experience.

Nicole [00:03:20]: While I was watching, I was like, I think I would do this again with him. But then when they called me and they were like, we have your husband here. I was like, oh, guess we're not going to be doing one anytime soon.

Alyssa [00:03:30]: Yeah, maybe it would help if you slow down the pace for him.

Nicole [00:03:32]: Well, see, that's what I was like, if he does it again, I think I'd be good because I'm not a runner, but I want to do the obstacles, so he'd have to, like, go slow. So, yeah, we'll see if he does it again.

John [00:03:42]: We'll see. We'll see.

Nicole [00:03:43]: But that's cool that your kids did it, too, because I saw the little kid, like, set up. I was like, I kind of want to do the kids, you know, like, maybe I'm like. Passes like. Like, I'm 12, like, get a little bit easier than some of them.

Alyssa [00:03:57]: But, yeah, that was the best part, I feel like, for me, was getting to see the kids and encouraging them through the process and just, like, the family bonding that came to watch the little ones. So I would do it again if my kids were interested in doing it again. But otherwise, I don't know.

Nicole [00:04:14]: It was, like, a lot.

Alyssa [00:04:16]: Yeah, it's torture if you're, like, into, like, you know, finding a peak experience to torture yourself and, like, prove to yourself that, you know, you can do hard things.

John [00:04:25]: Yeah.

Alyssa [00:04:26]: You know, it's totally something that you should do.

Nicole [00:04:28]: Yeah. Like, one and done.

Alyssa [00:04:29]: I feel like I Proved it to myself.

Nicole [00:04:31]: Yeah, no, for sure. Because it is a lot.

John [00:04:34]: Especially doing the trifecta, because that's a lot. Back to back.

David [00:04:37]: Yeah, I did the trifecta. She did the one.

Alyssa [00:04:40]: I did the sprint.

John [00:04:40]: The sprint. Okay.

Nicole [00:04:41]: Yeah. That's what I would do. I would do it.

John [00:04:43]: I did the Dopey Challenge one year. Have you heard of that? It's the Disney World. You do a 5k the first day, then the 10k and then a half marathon and then a full marathon. It's just back to back. And that was a miserable. The sleep deprivation alone was the most miserable part of it. But, yeah.

David [00:05:06]: Yeah. And being able to, like, build that pain. And I think about relationships too. Right. It's like, how can we kind of expand the container, which. We're gonna break it at some point, and then with that, you get to rebuild it, and it just, like. That's how you build a beautiful relationship over time.

John [00:05:24]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's dig into that. Let's dig into some of the. I know we're gonna talk about some of the fight language or the. I forget how you phrased it, but yeah.

David [00:05:34]: Yeah. I mean, to kind of share about us. Like, we signed up for marriage. Being on the opposite side of the polarities when it comes to, like, how we emotionally process things.

John [00:05:45]: Okay.

David [00:05:46]: So I grew up in a family of farmers who grew walnuts, and my mom's mom abandoned her when she was young, so her dad raised her. Oh, so this is just to say, like, full love for my mom, but just grew up in a stoic family.

John [00:06:01]: Yeah, yeah.

David [00:06:01]: So, like, showcasing emotion. Like, we didn't really do that.

John [00:06:05]: Right.

David [00:06:05]: She still was affectionate and stuff, but. And then you grew up in the opposite.

Alyssa [00:06:10]: Absolutely. Yeah. My family was just heightened emotions all the time. So very, very emotional. And we would come across, I feel like, as just, like, always hashing it out in the moment. So to not hash it out in the moment was like, what are we doing here? Like, hello, I'm ready to fight with you.

Nicole [00:06:31]: Yeah.

Alyssa [00:06:33]: What do you mean? We're gonna be, you know, taking our time to process through our. You know, take space and then come into this rationally. Like, that's absolutely not. You're abandoning me. You know, I mean, it went as deep as, like, why would you leave me here in the fight? You know, so that was difficult.

David [00:06:52]: Yeah. And I'm here, like, fight. Like, I'm going back in my shell.

Nicole [00:06:55]: Yeah.

John [00:06:56]: Yeah.

David [00:06:56]: Like, I got to process before I even have ideas of, like, what to say back. And I don't even know what feelings I have yet.

Nicole [00:07:01]: Yeah.

David [00:07:02]: So you could see this, like, coming, and we're, like, pushing each other ways.

John [00:07:07]: Yeah. We had the opposite, I think, because mine is more confrontational and hers is more, you know, shy away and. And I think. Yeah, your family growing up didn't show emotions.

Nicole [00:07:18]: You know, growing up, they didn't really.

John [00:07:19]: Say, I love you. Right.

Nicole [00:07:20]: A lot of silent treatment. No talk about, you know, emotional stuff, really. But yeah, so that's interesting because, like, we've, you know, dealt with the same things, for sure. And it's interesting how growing up, you know, that is instilled in us and how hard it is to break out of that, even when you're an adult and you can recognize it. But, you know, we talk a lot about that. If your partner, like, the person you choose to love can't, like, help you kind of work through those things, like, who can like you? But if you have somebody there to support you, then that makes it even better and you have somebody to, like, do it for. Because sometimes we don't even want to do it for ourselves. We need somebody to do it for. So I love that.

Alyssa [00:08:08]: That's beautifully said.

Nicole [00:08:09]: Thank you.

David [00:08:10]: Yeah. And that's part of marriage, right? Or like, like deep relationship.

John [00:08:14]: Oh, yeah.

David [00:08:14]: Like, you're there to grow together.

Nicole [00:08:16]: Yeah.

David [00:08:16]: And just like you said, sometimes you're like, yes, it's on you to get there. And then other times, like, there's that opportunity for them to pull you out or pull you up, call you up, is the beautiful thing with relationship. But it ain't always easy.

John [00:08:30]: Yeah. I think of it a lot of times. It's kind of like if lifting weights. It's like if you just lift your arm but there's no resistance, then you're not doing much. You can get some strength out of that. But when you got something pushing, you got a weight, you got something heavy, something to resist against you. And that's what, you know, in the relationship we grow because we have the resistance. We have to deal with another person, and we can't just, you know, it's not lightweight anymore.

David [00:08:57]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're responsible for more than yourself.

John [00:09:00]: Yeah.

David [00:09:01]: Like, then that commitment, like, that creates tension, and then it's about, how do you strengthen that together? And we know we had a blow up just in the last week over, like, silly nonsense.

John [00:09:13]: Yeah.

David [00:09:14]: But it just revealed, oh, wow. Like, there's. There's opportunity because we both kind of. We've started the inward journeys. Like, I definitely been on the inward journey. I Wrote a book about it. But understanding the patterns, which we just call the fight language. Like how you process. Because we're all going to fight. Right. We're like two beings with different ideas, so we're all going to fight. So it's like, how can you understand your own process? So you know each other's fight language so you can come together quicker than keeping it going. Or some people just don't have the tools. And then that's how, like, relationships get destroyed.

Nicole [00:09:49]: Yeah.

John [00:09:49]: Okay, now I'm curious. What is the. Give me more on the fight language. What is the. Like, the language of it? Yeah, yeah.

David [00:09:57]: So this is where we have the love language.

John [00:09:59]: Okay.

David [00:10:00]: And we haven't categorized all the fight language.

John [00:10:02]: Sure.

David [00:10:02]: We kind of know our patterns that we shared. So it's just. We know in an argument that I'm gonna need space to process. And for her, she needs. She processes through verbalizing.

John [00:10:16]: Right.

David [00:10:16]: Okay. So there's times. And this happened just this last week where I was trying to process. She got frustrated. Something asked me about it. I was trying to process. I didn't respond verbally. And then she spiraled, and then I spiraled back into my pattern. And a simple, hey, babe, I just need to process this before I speak. Like, could it potentially stop that?

Alyssa [00:10:40]: Yeah, like setting a time to it. Right. Because for me, I'm in the moment, like, spinning off. Like, I. Like, these are all the things that we're going to talk about. Right. And it's just really speedy. And for him, if he just acknowledges at least, like, hey, I need five minutes, I need 10 minutes. You know, I need a business day to process whatever it is that is needed, then he has fulfilled what I need, which is knowing that we're going to get back to this. So it's like finding tools like that to find a middle ground so that there is some type of just acknowledgement on both ends of the party that we're gonna get back to whatever it is that we need to get back to.

John [00:11:22]: That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I can see a similar pattern in kind of what we've talked about sometimes about validating emotions first. Because there was one instance, which I've made so many YouTube videos about where we went to this winery. I was. We were waiting for the server to come to do a wine tasting. And, you know, I'm looking because I'm watching out and with Nicole, and I kiss her, but I'm looking at the counter and then I didn't even realize what happened. And she's upset and, you know, I'm like, what's going on? What's wrong? She's like, I just want to leave. So we get to the car and she's like, you don't love me. I'm like, what's going on? She's like, you weren't looking at me when you were kissing me. And I'm like, you know, I'm like, what? This is ridiculous. You know, I'm fine. I'm like, what are you. This is crazy. Like, how could you treat me like this? You know, like, have that little confidence in me. You know, I'm trying to look for the person and like, everything is making logical sense to me and it's, it's like it hurts my feelings. But the one thing that would resolve the issue was because she just needed to know that I understood how she felt. That, that it just hurt her. Whether it was ridiculous or not, it doesn't matter. Just this is how it felt and hurt my feelings. And if I would have just said, oh, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, the whole thing would have been completely resolved and we wouldn't have to have a four hour discussion in the car and not do the wine tasting. But, but, but, but that's the things I think we had to learn is like that, that's the, you know, if, if her feelings are hurt, I need to acknowledge that immediately before I start going into something else.

Nicole [00:12:57]: Yeah, I feel like too, with, like having a fight or an argument, it's a lot of layers, right? Like, yeah, what you guys have established is so good because you can kind of like start it out in a less hostile way, which is good because then you can kind of set the foundation. But I'm wondering what you guys think, because when John just brought that up too. I know something that we've struggled sometimes in our arguments or fights is that someone comes with the hurt and we've learned to kind of validate that first. But then the other person gets hurt and then they're trying to overpower with their hurt, but then that person's still hurt and then just everyone's hurt. Right. So like, that comes to my mind or like the defensiveness. I know John and I have also been defensive, like in the thick of the argument, you know, and we've kind of had to like, face all those different elements of, you know, the argument. Do you feel like when you start it out in a better state that you guys kind of don't run into things like that as much, or have you figured out ways to also deal with those things too, or are there other things that you guys run into? Because I know we run into, you know, things like that even still. We were talking about in the last episode that, you know, John, with his surgery, he was, like, kind of coming across a lot more angry than he normally was. And he would. He wanted me to just, like, apologize, but I was like, I can't apologize when you're yelling or, like, you know, talking aggressively towards me because I feel like I'm validating that behavior. So, like, as soon as you kind of calm down and, like, acknowledge that, then we can, like, move past this. So it's like so many different things can get thrown in there, you know, and it can be hard to navigate. Even if you start off, like, really good, you can kind of derail maybe with some of the other things. Or do you feel like that kind of helps you guys able to, like, compartmentalize how you're going to handle it and, like, respect each other's way of handling it and so you don't run into that stuff as much? I know. I just threw a lot.

Alyssa [00:15:03]: Yeah. I would say that if done correctly, you know, and we're coming into it calmly, there is going to be less friction in general, for sure, but it always is going to come down to, like, our, like, childhood core wounding. And those are like, your, like, main. I feel like, like, thresholds of pain that you typically go back to right in every fight. And so then it's like, how do we heal that part of ourselves so that then these things don't come up, or they don't come up as often, or how do we get to the core of these pieces of ourselves and make a lot more space for each other, you know, realizing that, oh, we're hitting this core wound, you know, that's no good. You know, we gotta have a lot more grace for each other because those things usually don't go away even though you keep healing them. It's cyclical. You know, healing isn't linear, so they're gonna just keep coming up.

David [00:16:06]: Yeah. And I'd add to that and say we're still human and we have not mastered the process yet.

John [00:16:13]: Yeah.

David [00:16:14]: So, you know, seven years married, just about, uh. And it's like the. The perfect situation would be, you know, that part and you so. Well, that something happens, you get activated, and then you, like, you both get heated for a second, let's say hypothetically, and then you look at each other and kind of laugh like, oh, wow, that part of me wanted that. Okay.

John [00:16:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:38]: That's a good way to do it.

John [00:16:39]: Yeah, I like that word grace, though. That's. That's something that's been on my a lot this whole year. It's just like having grace being such a powerful, just concept of grace for everyone, which is like the opposite of judgment. Like non judgment saying, okay, everything that comes to me, I've been trying to practice, like, have grace for it. Have grace for it. Have grace for people. Don't. Because I think when you're in that mindset of grace, especially with your partner, then you don't get defensive. You don't. Like, you're less likely to get triggered because it's like, okay, even if they're doing something wrong, I don't have to judge that wrong action. I can, you know, forgive it before it has even occurred.

David [00:17:15]: Yeah. And even on yourself too.

John [00:17:17]: Yeah.

David [00:17:17]: Like grace. If there was one, like, I don't know, solution or pill to give society right now, it'd be grace.

John [00:17:24]: Yes, 100% agree.

David [00:17:25]: Because even what you're talking about before, like, we all relationships know this. There's like the male dynamic and the female dynamic and the male's like, this logically makes no sense. Like, how is this the deal? And she's like, I feel this way. Like, this is, you know, validate my feelings. And some of these things we've realized, like, is bigger patterns.

John [00:17:42]: Yeah.

David [00:17:42]: Like even we have two daughters. And even the struggle of being a mom, like, there's so many mothers out there who just don't feel supported and they even have their. Like, in our case, like, I was there. I don't go out to the bars every, you know, night or weekend even. So like, I'm around. But there was still not a level of depth of support that she didn't feel. But every time she talked to other mothers, like they were sharing the same things.

John [00:18:09]: Yeah.

David [00:18:10]: So we started to realize that. And just in relationship too, like, there's these deeper patterns that are also bigger than us. It's almost like collective pain.

John [00:18:18]: Oh, yeah.

David [00:18:19]: That's still lingering around.

John [00:18:20]: Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting one too with, I think the parenting, because I didn't get it for the longest time that it's like, you know, the response of, oh, no, whatever you want to do, honey, that's fine. It's like, no, like, that's not the response. It's like, okay, oh, what's going on with her? Okay, let me see if I can help figure this out. Is really the, you know, but it took me a while to really, like, Realize, okay, that's. It's not just being there. It's not just like saying, okay, whatever resources you need, I'm available for. It's like, you know, actually saying, okay, I'm actually involved in this decision or this thing that's happening, which is, you know, it's difficult for us as men sometimes to realize that, but I understand the frustration on the female side now, so.

David [00:19:08]: Yeah. Yeah, I know I got to get hit over the head a couple times before registers.

Alyssa [00:19:15]: It's true.

John [00:19:20]: Now, what about the. We talked a little bit about the building more intimacy in their relationship. I think that's a good topic too.

David [00:19:28]: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, fight language is one of it, and then love language. But we've also found some. Some practices to deepen that when it comes to. We've both been breathwork certified.

John [00:19:39]: Okay.

David [00:19:40]: And there's things that I've gone off the deep end in this topic. Jamie Wheel is a mentor, and he talks about how to use static practices to dislodge stress and have an altered state experience. And just kind of, I don't know, anything else you want to add to that?

Alyssa [00:19:58]: You're explaining it good.

David [00:19:59]: All right. Basically, you're playing with fire in one way, but even something as simple as setting, you know, we kind of forget about ritual.

John [00:20:10]: Right.

David [00:20:11]: And even, like, when it comes to sensuality, like setting a ritual before you connect. Because we all, in modern day, like, so stressed, and so much like, we have our emotional stuff we're holding onto. So one tool, like, we found really powerful is if we have extra time. We don't always have time with kids, but, like, even before you get intimate, you can create a ritual of spending, like, three to five minutes and just doing deep breathing together. There's a process of just full exhale, kind of a half exhale or full inhale, half exhale. Do that to, like, 30, 50 times, and then do, like, to, like, hold your breath all the way. Release. Hold your breath again, Release. And then hold it. And you're going to be lightheaded and dizzy again.

John [00:20:55]: The CO2 buildup, right?

David [00:20:57]: Yeah. Kind of like Wim Hof, if you ever done Wim Hof.

John [00:21:00]: Yeah.

David [00:21:00]: But we found it releases energy, like, from your body. It centers you, and then sometimes you could kind of even, like, tap into each other.

John [00:21:09]: Okay.

David [00:21:10]: So it's just this way of, like, clearing out and reconnecting, which builds the foundation to, like, have that deeper emotional connection.

John [00:21:17]: I see. Okay. You kind of get that almost like the holotropic breathing, we get an altered State, like. Yeah, yeah.

David [00:21:25]: So that's like the. Like, the baseline kind of like pretty intimacy. If you want a wild experience.

John [00:21:31]: Yeah.

David [00:21:32]: Then you can do rounds of that. So you could do a full round, and you kind of think about it, like, building up tension. So do a round of breath work and then a round of body work. Like, literally just massage.

John [00:21:46]: Okay.

David [00:21:47]: And then you take a break, and then you do another round of breath work. If you're trying to go really deep and have altered state experience. And then you just play with each other. You stimulate each other with not trying to get anywhere.

John [00:21:58]: Right. Yeah.

David [00:21:59]: And then another round of breath work, and then you do the thing, but you're also not trying to, like, immediately get somewhere.

John [00:22:08]: Right. More tantric type of.

David [00:22:10]: Yeah, exactly.

John [00:22:11]: Yeah.

David [00:22:11]: And then the final blast off for the crazy ones is another round of breath work, but one person does it, and the other person tries to get them off.

John [00:22:21]: Oh, I see. Well, they're in the altered state. Kind of.

Nicole [00:22:24]: Interesting.

David [00:22:25]: Yeah.

John [00:22:25]: Oh, that's. Yeah.

David [00:22:26]: So you're raising energy.

John [00:22:28]: Yeah, kind of.

David [00:22:28]: See?

John [00:22:29]: Yeah.

David [00:22:29]: And then you can do things like add cbd, because that just, like, helps the endocannadaboid system.

John [00:22:34]: Yeah.

David [00:22:34]: Or nitric oxide. So like, beet juice or something that increase blood flow.

John [00:22:39]: Right. Okay.

David [00:22:40]: And then if you're really spicy, maybe thc or if you're open to it, like MDMA or something like that. And what we found, like, when it comes to relationships, sometimes people get in the lens of, oh, if we, like, we'll save intimacy for when they show up. Right. Maybe this is more from the female perspective. Right. Of, like, oh, we'll use this as a. What's the name?

Nicole [00:23:04]: Like, a tool or something to get what you want. Like, when he washes the dishes, then he'll get, you know. Yeah.

David [00:23:11]: And, like, I learned this from Jamie Wheal, who's like. No. Like, this orgasmic state that we get is, like, almost in our neurophysiology, like, almost like an mdma.

John [00:23:21]: Right.

David [00:23:21]: So you're releasing so much stress and getting so much endorphins that this practice that we described, like, the full length.

John [00:23:28]: Yeah.

David [00:23:29]: Like, if we're really stressed out or we've just had a really hard moment, we know we'll be back in baseline, like, the next morning.

John [00:23:35]: Exactly. Yeah. See, that's. That's really good. Yeah. A lot of our kind of practices is so. I mean, we don't do the breath work, but we're gonna have to try that for sure.

Nicole [00:23:44]: Yeah.

John [00:23:44]: But we created a very long experience that I feel like, builds more. It's not that I'd ever experienced before, but, like, our experience is very, you know, we take our time very slow, very long, drawn out. And I think that just enhances it. Is that kind of energy building, which I think so many people miss out on, because they're just like, okay, get the deed done, and not really viewing it from a spiritual perspective. I think that's. I think that's the. The key thing that I. That I have found.

Nicole [00:24:19]: Yeah. And it does make you feel more connected to your partner because we've definitely had instances too, where we're like, whoa, like, I was inside of you, you were inside of me. Like, not in just, like, you know, the logical sense, but yeah, it is like a totally different experience that I don't think a lot of people have ever even experienced. I mean, a lot of times we're like, people aren't doing what we're doing, and, like, we know it. But I'm very interested to try, like, the technique you guys were talking about, because, you know, we already know what it can do as far as the intimacy and the connection. So, you know, trying a different way of doing that is very exciting. And it does, like, connect you to your partner in a way that does deepen your relationship. That I don't think people really realize because I don't think they real. I think they think that, like, the sex that they're having is how everyone's having it. And a lot of people are having it that way. Because I know before I met John, it was not the level that it was. It wasn't this connection that we have. And so I think people also too, think that this is just as good as it gets. But if they try something like you guys are talking about, I think they can connect with their partner and transform their relationship to a level that they didn't even know was possible in so many ways.

David [00:25:36]: Yeah, absolutely. And I will say that, like, what I described, when you stack on all the things at once, is level five rock climbing.

John [00:25:43]: Yeah.

David [00:25:47]: Start slow. And we've created experience before called the road to sacred union. And it starts with building the foundation.

John [00:25:55]: Right.

David [00:25:55]: So literally, like, fight language is one of those, but also your shared values. And then since it's the road to sacred union, like, commitment is one of those values too. So just establishing that. Because when you start stacking breath, work plus sexuality and like, sexual energy and then maybe substances on top of that.

John [00:26:14]: Yeah.

David [00:26:14]: Like, there's potential, real potential. Not only will you feel the moments where you like, Merge together and you're one and you're like, what just happened? Do you feel that? Yeah, I felt that.

John [00:26:24]: Yeah.

David [00:26:25]: But sometimes, like, your unconscious stuff is going to come up, too, and that could destroy relationships if they don't have that foundation, safe space together. And, like, maybe worked with a therapist or at least done some inner work, because some memory could pop up and you'd be like, what is this? And you're just accessing deeper parts of yourself, but also each other.

Nicole [00:26:47]: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

John [00:26:48]: Yeah, that's a good point.

Nicole [00:26:49]: Yeah, you have to have that foundation.

Alyssa [00:26:50]: So proceed with caution. Anyone listening?

John [00:26:54]: Yeah.

David [00:26:54]: In alchemy, they say make hay slowly. So, like, just play around. Like, this is like, a pattern and, like, build up over time. And then when you know whoever's listening, when you get that taste of that deeper, like, intimacy, you're like, whoa, this is a whole new world we didn't even know was here. And you're both, like, you know, big eyes looking at each other like, this is awesome.

John [00:27:14]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's. Yeah. I think it's just like Nicole was saying. I think people just don't even realize that it exists, that it's out there. Because I didn't know until. Until we started kind stumbled on some of these things. But I want to incorporate some of the things that you're talking about, too. But, yeah, we found using CBD or thc, you know, can really enhance the experience. But again, I think it's like using these things in a way to, like, deepen the intimacy, not just as a. You know, I think sometimes some of the substances are just used to kind of party, and it's like, that's not really what we're trying to do, you know, get that communion. It's more of the idea. So.

Nicole [00:27:57]: Yeah, but I think it is important, like you said, you have to have the foundation, too, because even if you. If you're just focused on, like, the sex part, like, yeah, you might get there, or it might be messier, but you're not. It's not even going to feel probably, like what we're talking about unless you have those, like, other parts of your relationship where you feel safe and protected and kind of, like, free, you know, because you do need that safe space for the intimacy part as well, too. So even if you, like, do the techniques, you want to make sure you focus on, like, how you're. Because, like, you were talking about, like, fighting. People think, oh, that's bad. Like, but it does create the intimacy in your relationship, and that's what strengthens it the most.

John [00:28:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:42]: And so if you focus on those things that are strengthening your relationship outside the bedroom and then you add in what you guys are talking about, that's when you can get to this, like, insane level. But you can't just focus on one, you know, aspect of the bedroom without outside of the bedroom, too, so.

David [00:29:01]: Yeah. Yeah. And it's that communication. Like, I know that's what's kept us together because there's been moments where being on the opposite side of how we, you know, the personal patterns and whatever else, it's hard. It's like two jagged rocks being put in a bag and eventually get smoothed out.

John [00:29:18]: Yeah, yeah.

David [00:29:19]: But being able to have that open, honest communication which for those dating, like, takes time. Oh, yeah, right. To get to those deeper levels. But then that's where you got to be able to hold the space. When you do start to go to the. The highest. Highest. I mean, like, to be in, like, love and then, like, ecstatic state and, like, all of it together, like. Yeah, that's some of the highest highs there is to explore together.

John [00:29:43]: Yeah.

David [00:29:43]: But it comes with that communication and, like, being able to stick the landing at the end of the day. Exactly to your point. So those. Those, like, when you use substances, like, you're playing with fire, Right. It's borderline. It is addictive. It's some of the most addicting things. And you stack. You're stacking all the addicting things together in some regards. But if you're using it for healing, connection, and, like, growth or, like, community or just. Yeah, all those things, like, that's when it's like a secret superpower you can pull out when you need to.

Nicole [00:30:17]: Yeah, we've actually been talking about that lately. We've talked about how the substances, they can help you see things that maybe you couldn't see without them, but you have to do the work sober for it to really stick and really get there. So, yeah, you have this tool that can help you see all these things, but you have to do the work and really get to that place sober without any of that for it to stick and become a part of you. Because people get addicted to it because they're like, oh, I can just get to this state by keep taking this. Right. But they're not doing the work to get there without this substance. So they just have to keep taking it. They have to keep taking it, and then they can't live without it now, so they gotta keep taking It. But they don't know that they can get there if they do the hard stuff to get to that point that they're trying to take the easy way out. But all the good stuff comes from the hard stuff.

David [00:31:18]: Yeah, that's exactly what I share. I created this in person intensive, and then I turned it into a book alchemical journey. And it's about exploring peak states of consciousness and the whole inward journey mixed in there. But it's exactly that. Why do we do this? It's like you can create these peak experiences together on demand, but you do it so. So you show up more integrated on Monday morning. So another metaphor I like to use is back in the medieval days, they had this, like, metal box.

John [00:31:48]: Okay. Yeah.

David [00:31:49]: And they would carry, like, a tinder from a fire, like a little ember.

John [00:31:56]: Oh, yeah, yeah.

David [00:31:57]: And they would always feed it. Right. So what you're doing is you're going through. You're creating. If it's like an intimate night like this, and you plan it out. I'm sure you guys kind of plan it out and you have it like you know which day it's going to be, and you create. Create that space to do it. Then it's like, okay, we're intentionally doing this. We're doing it for growth, healing and connection. And we're gonna touch the sun. We're gonna climb the peak together. Right. We're gonna get above the tree line of ordinary life, maybe use substances. We're gonna have a bigger perspective. Then you touch that space where you feel one or you have the orgasm and you're one with God. And it's like the rays of the sun are shining down upon you.

John [00:32:35]: Yeah.

David [00:32:36]: And then you're taking that spark, that flame, and carrying it with you Monday morning.

John [00:32:40]: Yeah.

David [00:32:40]: And that's where, like, another word is integration.

John [00:32:42]: Right, right.

David [00:32:43]: So that's where, like, doing the work is the real work. And this is what motivates you to keep showing up and doing the work together. Yeah, yeah.

John [00:32:52]: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. They. It's a metal box. So they can start a fire whenever they need.

David [00:32:57]: Exactly.

John [00:32:58]: Yeah. Yeah.

David [00:32:58]: So it's. It's like when you touch that space.

John [00:33:01]: Yeah.

David [00:33:02]: And even in relationship, like, we became one, then it's like, how can you carry that. That flame?

John [00:33:07]: Yeah.

David [00:33:07]: Like, what are the little practices daily.

John [00:33:09]: Or weekly that keeps feeding that. Yeah, I like that. That's a good analogy. Yeah. What have you guys found is kind of the biggest struggles that you guys have faced that have caused you the most growth in your relationship.

David [00:33:27]: What do you think?

Alyssa [00:33:32]: I don't know. That's a hard one. I think that one of the things that probably was my biggest struggle just personally was becoming a mom, which I think a lot of women can relate to because you go through this identity crisis. And then I was a really young mom, so I think I didn't have, like, the support that I would have loved to have in place with just other friends going through the same thing as me. I feel like a lot of my friends were still just in a party phase or they were just having fun. We're in San Diego, you know, they're just in a different, different place that I couldn't be. So I feel like I was one trying to figure out myself. Right. And going through this identity crisis and then also trying to juggle these new hats. And then during that time too, you were doing businesses or, you know, there was just so much going on. It was like everything all at once in the years that I've had kids. So, yeah, I would say that probably during those times of just like really needing to find myself again and find my footing and find being a mother and cocooning with babies and all of that, all of motherhood, the. The beginning, the first like six months of each of my babies.

David [00:34:58]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if I could, I mean, just for some context. We all have our 2020 story, but ours was. I decided to go in business all on my own and open a retail store, meditation supply store. I signed the lease January 2020, due to open March 2020.

John [00:35:14]: Yeah.

David [00:35:14]: We had a two year old. We had a newborn in June 2020.

John [00:35:18]: Oh, God.

David [00:35:19]: We did some construction in the backyard at the same time.

Alyssa [00:35:22]: We built a house, not some construction.

John [00:35:27]: Yeah.

David [00:35:27]: And then the year before that, I did a mastermind, Aubrey Marcus with Fit for Service. And that basically, like, I really pushed the boundaries of, like, what do we think about all different things. Psychedelics or like open relationship was something that was in that. Which I was not trying to do, but she always thought I was. So I was pushing, like, where are our boundaries? A little bit unconsciously. So that was the encapsulation of that year or two. But like to get like the juicy stuff I know for her, like I shared before, it was like that not feeling that support. And we kept coming to this. And she's like, I just need you to show up. And I'm like, I'm showing up in all the ways that I know how to show up. And I'm curious to hear more, like, from your perspective, babe. But we just Learned there's so much shared, even just being a mother and even the father role of. There's expectations today, but it's not really verbalized agreements. And then society, we muddied the waters of gender roles and all the things and everybody's trying to fight for in different areas or to be seen and heard. So it's just this weird dynamic that plays. And so many people are, like, used to doing it on their own.

John [00:36:47]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

David [00:36:48]: Yet we're all sharing the same pain internally. So I'm curious to hear from you.

Alyssa [00:36:54]: Yeah, I mean, I think that sums it up. Good. I think. I think as far as, like, motherhood goes in those first, like I said six months, you're just. You don't have your autonomy. You know, you're. I was nursing. I was. I was just, like, constantly being touched, too, by the baby, by, you know, whatever. And it was hard. It was hard to, like, say, hey, this is what I need. Here's the baby. And give yourself that time. And so you're processing through just, like, am I even doing this right? Or good. You know, postpartum sets in. And then you also have, like, no, I am doing this good. And these two very, like, different things are being told to you in your mind all the time. So. Yeah, I just. I honestly. I have a really hard time putting it into words exactly what that. What that is like for women. And I think until you're a mom, there's really no way to, like, fully explain it. Explain it. Like, it's something that's, like, so beyond even, like, words. And it's something that, truthfully, like, my spouse couldn't have been there for me through that because of not being able to, like, really understand. And they can in some ways, by you saying, like, this is the list of the things that I need you to do. Yeah, right. Like, I need you to do X, Y, and Z. But then at the same time, you're like, I don't even have the energy to. To give you a list of X, Y, and Z. I need you to just take initiative. Right. And so I think a lot of women can relate to, like, no, I just want you to do the thing. But they're like, no, I can't do the thing unless you give me a list. And you're like, I do not. I can't give you a list. Like, you just need to do it. And so there's this, like, super friction where it's like, I don't. I don't know. I don't have the Words for you, like, this is. This is what I want, but I can't. I don't know.

Nicole [00:38:58]: Yeah. I can't put it into words.

Alyssa [00:38:59]: Yes.

Nicole [00:39:00]: Yeah.

David [00:39:00]: We're guys who are like, just tell us what to do. I grew up, like, my brother was a half brother, and he was 10 years older, so there was no kids. I was the youngest in the family. Like, I have these instincts that you have, but coming back, you're in the trenches, and that's another time. Like, you're in the trenches and the cracks are gonna be exposed.

John [00:39:21]: Yeah.

David [00:39:21]: So, like, we were talking about before, like, grace, like, for anybody who's, like, close to becoming a parent, like, we have such high expectations nowadays. Like, we're just gonna have the kid and bounce back and do all the things and be awesome.

John [00:39:33]: Right.

David [00:39:34]: Whereas, like, wait, wait, slow down. And, like, know you're gonna be in the fire together.

John [00:39:39]: Yeah.

David [00:39:40]: And the cracks are gonna come out, and it's like that Japanese, you know, ceramic that you. Ikega, or. I don't know how to pronounce it. You glue it back together and it'll be stronger.

John [00:39:49]: Yeah.

David [00:39:49]: But so much grace for that. That time period. Like, if you can practice that, like, that can alleviate a lot of the extra tension and struggle that you go through.

John [00:40:00]: Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people think that their relationship's supposed to be. Well, I mean, that's kind of why we made the podcast. It's supposed to be perfect. But that Kaga or whatever is that the idea is, like, it's better than perfect, is because you're. You know, the purpose of the relationship is to grow you, to grow each other. And it's because of that friction that. That produces growth that you couldn't achieve on your own. And so. But that's been. So. It's like, you know, I'm. I'm thankful that every struggle that we've gone through, every time I feel like it was a good outcome. Like, I'm glad it happened because it's like, it needed to happen because there was something deep even. We were just talking in the last episode how, you know, when I'm at the 9 out of 10 pain after surgery, it's like, it's bringing out the real me. It. You know, it's like I had a YouTube video that came out that same day that was who you are on your worst day is who you actually are. And it hit. I had to hit myself with my own. I was like, but it's true. And it's like, but that brings that out that pressure, the situation with children, all those things that brings that out in you so that you can actually work on it. Do the open heart surgery, you know, you got to crack open the rib cage to do the open art surgery. And that hurts. But. But, yeah, but that's, you know, just feel like the relationship. I've been thankful that our relationship, everything has resulted in us growing, even if it's been tough to go through the stuff.

Nicole [00:41:31]: And you can tell that you guys are very solid too. So it's good to see that you guys work through that hard time. You know, that's a lot going on. I haven't had children, but John has a daughter, and becoming a stepparent alone, I feel like I'm like, oh, my gosh, you know, getting thrown in. She was 10 when we got together, so, you know, I didn't get the younger years, but it's been a lot. She's amazing, though. She makes me feel like a real parent too. But John knows I definitely stress too, with a lot of the same, like, I mean, I went from being single, like 20 something year old to having a 10 year old at her house. And I'm like, what do I wear? Like, like, what do I wear? Like, I can't wear the same stuff, you know, and I don't really want to because I'm like, I have a different role now, but also like, where is. Where's Nicole and this new role? Like, where are we merging? Because sometimes you're like, I want to go back to that time. You know, I know how to be that person now. I have to figure out how to be this person. And so, you know, I'm sure it's even more when you have them so small. And then like you said with like the postpartum, and like, there's just so many different things. And then, you know, we. We've been talking recently about some of the things we learned about like, men being singular focused and women being diffuse focused. And I think that's also too, where you're like, just, you should just know. And then the guy's like, I don't know, like, and they're both. You guys are both being genuine. Yeah.

John [00:43:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:03]: Like, our brains just work differently. And so that also causes the clash because, like, they don't know and we don't know how to explain it to them because we're speaking a language that they don't even understand because they can only think about this one thing. And that's why they're like, tell me the one thing. And I'll do that one thing. But you're like, I can think of 10 things at one time. Like, why can't you think of 10 things at one time? You know what I mean? So, yeah, it's a lot to it, but, yeah, you can tell that you guys have, like, really committed to, like, working on, you know, the things that you guys are going through and growing through them. And, you know, I think that's the best that we can do as couples. Focus on our individual healing and healing together. And, you know, what that can really bring to a relationship. And then you get to experience a relationship that, like, people have never even imagined in real life.

David [00:43:56]: Thank you for that reflection. And you brought up some great points, too, of, like, if you're. If you're in committed relationship over time, like, you're gonna both evolve.

John [00:44:04]: Yeah.

David [00:44:05]: And that means identities, parts of you are gonna die off. And, like, just like, you shared. And Alyssa, too, that was a big part, too, because she outgrew a friend group.

Nicole [00:44:12]: Yeah.

David [00:44:13]: And it's like, who am I? Like? And she was in between, you know, for a little bit of, like, mom friends and, like, the old friends and wanting to go back just like you shared. So it's that, you know, part the beautiful thing with relationship is, like, you can hold space for each other.

John [00:44:29]: Yeah.

David [00:44:30]: And then also, too, it's hard, especially if you're both committed to growth. And then maybe, like, you know, somebody is in one phase, and the other one's, like, in a hard growth phase. And the one's like, I'm trying to chill right now, and then it creates that gap in the relationship.

Nicole [00:44:43]: Yeah.

David [00:44:43]: That's also another hard, hard spot to navigate.

John [00:44:47]: Yeah. We went through that some because after, like, I had a hard period because I got divorced right after, before we got married, and it was like I had a complete identity crisis of my whole life changing. And I was just in a bad place for a long time. And then at first, Nicole was in a bad place, but then I'm in a bad place, and she's. Now I'm bringing her down, and I'm like, oh, God, I'm bringing her down now. And it just. Yeah, it's tough. But, you know, she came through for me. And. And when she's had the hard times I've come through, it seems that they get spaced out. So it's, you know, they're not usually happening quite at the same time, which is. Which is helpful. But, yeah.

David [00:45:33]: Yeah, I got the visual of, like, a rock climber. Right. Like, one person's belaying has the rope and you're like pulling the other one up and you like go through life and switch through those.

Nicole [00:45:42]: Yeah, yeah, that's true.

David [00:45:44]: And it's not always easy. So like again, grace, grace during that period and knowing like as long as you're both committed, like you'll get there.

Nicole [00:45:54]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John [00:45:55]: Now what is your guys experience with. We talked about a little bit about the roles before, but like the masculine role versus the feminine role. How have you kind of. Because you talked about how society today is kind of everyone wants to do everything and we found a huge benefit in having that role very clearly defined in our relationship. But what is your take on that?

David [00:46:21]: Yeah, I'll start with one tool that we're starting to practice more is we all have these expectations. But verbalizing agreements or even commitments and then being able to verbalize renegotiating a commitment. But we're more of the viewpoint of David Data. I don't know if you've gone into his work.

John [00:46:40]: Yeah, we just reviewed the way the superior man on the podcast.

David [00:46:45]: Yeah, so like being polarized.

John [00:46:47]: Exactly.

David [00:46:48]: In your essence. But also like I was part of a men's group that we started and it was called Divine Masculine Embodied. So like evolving together where like to me the divine masculine is grounded in its masculinity, but then also to open up and create balance with the femininity. Right. So like being able to express emotions or cry in front of other guys. So for us, I'd say being able to keep that polarity and we have some things like I'm in charge of the backyard, she's in charge of some things in the home. But then it's also 2025, so there's a lot of role dynamics that it's just kind of, I think unique to. What are your strengths and weaknesses? I'm curious to hear what you would say.

Alyssa [00:47:33]: Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, you know, I feel like most nights I probably make dinner, you know, and do the laundry and do a lot of the like house things and except Tuesdays. Except Tuesdays the girls do have gymnastics. So David does do it that night, which is awesome because we get home later. So. Yeah, so there's I feel like pretty traditional roles happening with, you know, some areas where it's like I really can't do this because we're over here doing this commitment. So can you help me? You know, his thing is that he takes out the trash, but sometimes it's filled up and I don't really feel like asking or Waiting, and I'm tired of looking at it, so I take it out. Yeah.

David [00:48:13]: Yeah. But one. One fun thing that just happened recently is we got ChatGPT and we did the Chinese horoscope. Now, you could do this with any horoscope.

John [00:48:25]: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

David [00:48:26]: But it was actually pretty accurate of, like, our unique strengths and just kind of, like more of, like, essence or, like, energy coming out and then the weakness and then, like, how to do that in relation.

John [00:48:39]: Yeah.

Alyssa [00:48:40]: Yeah. It's actually a really fun rabbit hole. You guys should definitely put it in, find out what your guys are, and then just see. Ask it a few questions. Right. Like, what are we most. What is our strengths and compatibility? What are the things that are gonna be our struggles? How can we create tools to get through those struggles? What would that look like on a weekly basis? Like, get really practical with it. And it was kind of fun. Some of the stuff that would come up.

Nicole [00:49:05]: Yeah.

David [00:49:05]: That's cool.

John [00:49:06]: That's. Yeah. I never even thought to do that. Yeah. We've been using ChatGPT a lot. It's been my best friend.

Nicole [00:49:14]: Yeah. It's really smart.

John [00:49:15]: Yeah.

David [00:49:16]: So I'd say it's a mix of, like, female, male dynamics.

John [00:49:19]: Yeah.

David [00:49:20]: And then also your unique strengths and weaknesses and, like, being able to juggle those together.

John [00:49:25]: Yeah.

David [00:49:25]: Is like, where you could start to find a real sweet spot.

John [00:49:28]: Yeah. Yeah. We. We call what we talk about the modern traditional relationship, basically being that, like, it's like, I don't think it's as important so much as who cooks dinner or cleans the house. I mean, but more so the masculine role showing up more of the spiritual leader of the house and the feminine being in the feminine role, the nurturing and supporting. And I find that I support Nicole best by helping, by making decisions, by being emotionally creating emotional, safe space for her and. And she supports me best by lifting me up, making me feel like a big, strong man, and, you know, the type of thing that I can take on the whole world if I have her love and her sex, like, that fuels me, and I don't need her to do, like. Yeah, if she cooks dinner, those are great. I appreciate those things, but it's. I think that's why we kind of use the term modern traditional, because it's. In the old traditional relationship, it was, okay, well, the woman had to find a man who made money because she couldn't make money on her own. So then she had to go take care of all the house and stuff and listen to what he says, because she'll be on the street with nothing if she doesn't listen to his commands. And that was kind of the traditional relationship, but it wasn't a voluntary thing. Whereas today, a woman can get a job, she can do whatever she wants to do. So if she trusts a man's leadership, he must really be a leader, because she doesn't need the leadership, but she accepts it. And so I think that's something that we found has been super powerful in our relationships. And helping other people, too, is just discovering that. Cause I think a lot of people, even today in society, they're like, oh, that's so sexist. The man's the leader. And it's like. But it's not coming from the old place of where it's, like, repression. It's coming from a new place of trust, of, like, I want to, like, be a servant leader. She wants to have me lead her and to trust me so that we have this dynamic in these roles where we're interdependent on each other.

David [00:51:43]: Yeah, yeah. I'm hearing another way to say that is, like, the masculine holds the vision. Right. And then creates the structure of, like, how we're gonna get there. And then that structure allows the feminine to be flowy.

John [00:51:56]: Exactly.

David [00:51:56]: But she has to have that safe space to do that.

Nicole [00:51:59]: Right.

David [00:51:59]: And then that's where the beautiful dance gets to, like, go towards, like, we're gonna go towards this thing, babe. All right. And then you get to get to play to. To get there.

John [00:52:09]: Yeah. And I, like.

Nicole [00:52:10]: It also creates oneness more. Because I've been in relationships before, John, and it just felt like two individuals living together or, you know, hanging out. Whereas, like, if I rely on him for some things and he relies on me for some things, it's more of, like, that partnership, that oneness. Like, we create a unit rather than two separate units. And so, you know, you also appreciate and respect each other in a different way when you rely on them for that thing that you're kind of giving them, you know, and taking off your. Because, like you said, everyone today can be their own individual, can live on their own, can survive. So now it comes from a place of, like, I want you to help me, and me to help you and relying on each other and, you know, that sort of aspect, which I think also creates deeper, more meaningful relationships as well.

John [00:53:04]: Yeah. And I like what you said about the, like, in the men's group. I think that's important, too. That and even the, like, crying in front of other men. I think that's the place what I've found is that to have, you know, that's a place where men show their, quote, weakness is in this group of other men. Not in front of your woman, and not that you can't cry in front of her, but the weakness that, the doubt, the insecurities that we have as men, as women, when they hear the insecurities of a man, it makes them scared. Safety is a threat. But we gotta have men that we can be like, man, I don't know what I'm doing. Oh, God, I screwed up. I don't know what to do next, you know, to be able to say those things and to be real with. With other men. Because I think again, in the old traditional masculinity, it was like, oh, yeah, you got to be, you know, macho man all the time in front of men, in front of women. But you're not really doing any kind of deep work when you're. You're doing that. You're not really growing your, you know, doing the inner, inner work.

David [00:54:05]: So, yeah, 100%. I know from my own experience, my own story, I resonated with, like, the lone wolf. And I think there's a lot of guys too. Either that or the stoic strongman. Right. I'm just gonna hold on to all the things. But men's, the men's group, and we, like, started doing it on a quarterly basis was, like, such a big part of my own evolution. Because to a point, men heal men and women heal women in certain regards. And we need that space. We need that space where, like, oh, wait, I can. Like you said, I can be weak. I can show tears. Or wait, if I'm actually. And even to, like, reframe that. Like, is that weakness or is that just being vulnerable as a human?

John [00:54:43]: Right, exactly.

David [00:54:44]: Right. And then you do that around other guys. I know for myself, when I did this mastermind, it was a Kyle Kingsbury, this six foot, like two or three, like, three or four, whatever, Fighter Jack dude up on stage. And he's up there talking, and it's like the first talk, and he, like, starts bringing up his family and starts crying.

John [00:55:02]: Yeah.

David [00:55:02]: And you could just see all the guys. I was new to that kind of thing. So, like, all the guys in the. Like, is he okay? Like, do we do something?

John [00:55:09]: Yeah, yeah.

David [00:55:10]: But especially as a guy, because I could only speak from my own perspective. Like, there's. There's such a depth of freedom you can start to get to when you can just, like, learn to release and, like, just show. Take off the mask.

John [00:55:23]: Yeah.

David [00:55:23]: I Mean, that's really what you're doing in a men's group. Right, Right. Taking off the mask, like you said, and then being like, yeah, this is. This is all parts of me, which. There's certain parts that the feminine isn't going to want to see. They're like, go do that with a man. Like, go work on your weakness with other guys. Yeah, I'm not here for that. I'm not here to push you on. On that level.

John [00:55:43]: Yeah.

David [00:55:44]: So, yeah, it's. It's. It's a really important process we even found as we were married with kids, like, it's so easy to get stuck and. No, we got to be there with the kid all the time. First you got to take space for yourself and, like, have space with, like. Like me with the men's group and her with her, you know, lady friends.

Alyssa [00:56:06]: Girlfriends.

David [00:56:06]: Girlfriends, yeah. Divine Feminine embodied her woman's group as well as a couple, too, because otherwise you just get sucked into old patterns and too busy, and then you don't create that space to do that deeper work that's gonna strengthen your relationship.

Nicole [00:56:24]: Yeah.

Alyssa [00:56:24]: Recharges. Right. And I mean, this even goes back to being in motherhood and going back to that topic, you realize, like, oh, wow, like, I haven't taken any time for myself. Yeah. And I think that he was probably evolving at that time, too, by just going and doing things. And so right then, resentment grows, and the way to resolve that is. Oh, yeah, I can go too. Why did I feel like I couldn't go? Which. You don't know. You just in the moment, you're, like, not thinking like that. So having the push and then having the support, that was like, yeah, go do those things with your girlfriends, or, oh, let's all go together. Was like, oh, yeah, now I feel like me again, and I can go back to this thing. And actually, I don't resent it. I love doing these things. I was just tired. Yeah. I needed to sleep. I needed a massage. I needed to look at the water. I feel all better.

Nicole [00:57:15]: Yeah.

Alyssa [00:57:15]: Totally fine.

John [00:57:16]: Which book was it where? I think it was in the Queen's code and then also in the Surrendered Wife. I think both of them talked about the idea of women not taking the.

Nicole [00:57:26]: They need to take their youth like our.

John [00:57:29]: Because men will do it. Right.

Nicole [00:57:30]: Yeah, I think it was the queen's code, because I was going to mention that too. Men don't think twice. They're like, if I go get a massage, I know I'm going to show up better for everyone in My life. So they do it. But as women, we're like, I want a massage. It was like, but I got to pick the kids up from school, and then who's going to make dinner? And then like this, we think in that way. And so we end up pushing off the things for ourselves. And then, like you said, the resentment. You're like, I haven't done anything in, like, five months. And he, you know, went and played golf or whatever, you know, but so, yeah, kind of like getting in that habit of taking the you time so that you can recharge. But it's a lot, too, when you're a mom, because I feel like you get the mom guilt too. You're like, oh, you know. Yeah. Like, it's. It's a lot of layers. But we should take a note from the men's book where they're like, if I do this, I'll show up better. Because like you said, sometimes all you need is a massage and just stir up some water. And you're like, I'm great. I could handle whatever now.

John [00:58:25]: Yeah, yeah.

Alyssa [00:58:26]: It's the glass half empty. Right. And you're just, like, giving from it all the time as opposed to filling it up, which is just, like, one of the best visuals always, because it comes up all the time. But it's true. And all the moms I talk to do get a lot of mom guilt or they feel, like, even shame about leaving.

Nicole [00:58:45]: Yeah.

Alyssa [00:58:45]: So just putting that on the back burner and knowing. No, like this. This is a priority.

Nicole [00:58:51]: Yeah.

Alyssa [00:58:52]: Yeah. This is gonna make my life run smoothly.

David [00:58:56]: Yeah. And it's like the underlying theme has been growth. Right. So, like, the formula for growth is stress plus rest.

John [00:59:03]: Yeah. Yeah.

David [00:59:04]: So thinking about yourself, thinking about as a couple, thinking about just, like, periods of life. Like, how do you create that rest and recovery and what does that look like for you?

John [00:59:14]: So I'm forced into it now. I was on day 63 of 75 hard. I was like, there's no way I'm gonna fail 75 hard. And there you go. And now, like, I'm, you know, every day I'm used to working out, running marathons, and I've been sitting for a month now. But it's been a good thing for me, though, to have to actually rest.

Nicole [00:59:36]: Yeah.

John [00:59:36]: You know, so. But.

Nicole [00:59:38]: But it all happens for a reason.

John [00:59:39]: Yeah.

David [00:59:40]: Yeah. That's just important thing, like, within yourself. You know, we talked a lot about masculine, feminine, and it's like, how do you create that internal balance?

John [00:59:47]: Yeah.

David [00:59:48]: Right. So, like, for you, it's Like a beautiful. Like. Okay, I'm being asked to just be a little bit more.

John [00:59:53]: Yeah.

David [00:59:53]: Like, this is hard.

John [00:59:54]: Ye. Yeah. Yeah.

David [00:59:55]: That's why I, like, at our men's group, like, there's a lot of space.

John [00:59:58]: Yeah.

David [00:59:58]: And, like, guys were so used to do, do, do, do they get there. Like, we're just hanging out with nothing to do for a little bit.

John [01:00:06]: Yeah.

David [01:00:07]: So, like, who. Whoever's listening. Like, where. Where do you lean? Is it more into doing or being right? Is it, like, are you a type A achiever or are you a flow junkie? Which is another way to say it. Like, are you always going for that next goal or are you. Like, I'm going to just totally go with the flow? And then how can you have that awareness to create that balance? Because then that's when you hit the sweet spot. Like, when you get in the middle, like, that's when life feels like flow and you are in the zone and really enjoying it, even as a couple, because you can acknowledge, like, oh, wow, I need a break. I need to go get away. Or like, oh, you know, if you're on the other end. I've been too being. I need to go take some action to create the life or the relationship I want. I need to take action to have that hard conversation that I've been putting off, that thing that's been bugging me or whatever the thing is. And then that's when you really get into the sweet spot.

John [01:00:58]: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's. Yeah, yeah. I definitely am the action too far on that end, but I'm learning. It's good. But, yeah, the ego has to dissolve a little bit too. You know, I identify myself so much with my accomplishments and what I can do, and so when you can't do something, then it's. You got to learn to figure out who you really are. All right. Well, yeah, I think we're just about out of time here, but yeah, it's great having you guys on the show.

Nicole [01:01:31]: Thank you so much.

John [01:01:32]: Some great wisdom. And one more time website and the book for.

David [01:01:39]: Yes, I wrote Thou Chemical the Ultimate Quest for Inner Gold. You could find that on Amazon. And my personal website is. Is davidggilbert.com Excellent.

John [01:01:48]: And I'll put that in. Now that we have a website, I just chat she Flow Coded, a website with chatgpt and took all our episodes and put it on there. So I'll put that into the show notes and yeah, so. And if you enjoy the podcast, share it with a friend and leave us a review, and we'll see you guys next week. Through every fault we find our way.