John: And I've always felt like marriage was very serious to me, and that it was always going to be like we're one person sort of thing. A lot of people don't see marriage like that anymore. It's a lot easier to get out of, and there's something about it that's indescribable. The very last thing you want to do on this Earth is get married. I mean, get divorced. Rodrigo, can you cut that one out? You heard it here, folks, don't get married. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other, better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we show you how two imperfect people helping each other equals one better than perfect relationship. There you go, equals three. So, uh, yeah, after the last episode, we are switching to a more themed one again. So, uh, we're talking about... It's my week. Oh no, no, it's not my week, it's your week.

Nicole: Ah, okay, yeah, okay. Tried to steal my week, but yes, it's my week. So, actually, a conversation that we had a few days ago, I thought, would be really beneficial. And it's essentially, I guess we'll have to come up with a good topic or title for this, but it's essentially how the oneness of marriage, or like a serious relationship even, has been forgotten. Yeah, it's now more so two separate people living separate lives under one roof. Right, so they still have the one, but it's like when you get married specifically, it's your becoming one. And a lot of people who are married have forgotten that, or even in a serious relationship, like they don't realize that they're going to become one.

John: Right, so yeah, I guess where should we start? Because we kind of just jumped into it the other day when we were talking about it, but hit on a lot of good points.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, I think, I guess we could talk about the kind of issues that are caused by not thinking this way, and how it ends up causing harm. Right? I mean, like even we could talk about conflict. Right? So, when you have conflict, if it's you did this and I did that, and you made me feel this way, and this, and it's, and while some of those things are true, I think every single one of us can get caught up in, like when you're saying those things, you're saying I and you, you know, instead of us, and thinking in terms of us. And so, I think that that's a great example, is like, if you're thinking in your head one, then it's like, you know, your left hand, if your left hand messes up, your right hand isn't like, you screwed up. It's like, it's still your body, it's still part of you. Like, you own the entire thing. Or if your left hand is hurt, the right hand doesn't say, well, you know, it's your problem. It's like, you know, it's like your body, you feel the entire thing, it affects the entire body. So, well, every therapist, psychologist type of person tells couples to look at it, you guys versus the issue or the problem, rather than versus each other.

John: Right, because that's what's going to actually solve the problem a lot of the time, is looking at it from a unified front. Yeah, exactly, rather than like two people trying to beat each other up because each person wants to be right, because they're so heavily individualized still.

Nicole: And I think that's where our conversation took a turn too when we were talking about the other day, is that we are so heavily individualized to the point that now marriage doesn't mean becoming one. Like right now, it's normal for people to get married and still live their individualized lives just under one roof, or you know, like they have a conjoined bank account, but they still have separate finances, and you know, all that stuff. That I think too, we also don't depend on each other as much anymore either, because of this heavily individualized concept that we've embodied. The Optimist book, or optimism, I forget the actual title of it, that is probably the most profound thing I learned from the whole book.

John: Yeah, uh, was that we are so heavily individualized, and just really thinking about that when I read the book, I was like, yeah, it's in everything. Like, men are so individualized, women are so individualized, and then we're so focused on ourselves that when we come together, like getting married, that we're still so separated. Like, and we're just constantly trying to protect ourselves rather than going all in and making an actual commitment. We're, we still have all these backup things, right? Like, we still have our own savings account in case, God forbid, we still have, you know, like our certain things in our name because like, what if we get a divorce? And then, you know, it's all of still focusing on like, what is going to happen to me, right? If something were to happen. It's like having a contingency plan is the opposite of becoming one because it's not a trust. You're not having trust. And so, you're thinking about you still have to have a thought about what happens to me, like the individual me, as opposed to going full in and saying, no, I'm committed for life.

Nicole: Right, you know, aside from abuse situations, obviously, those kind of, we don't condone this.

John: Right, yeah, I mean, if you're in an abusive situation, obviously, you have to get out. But you're committing for life. Like, there's no takebacks. You're putting it all in. You're basically to the point where if you get ruined, you get ruined. Like, you trust this person enough that they're not going to leave you. They're not going to... You say vows for a reason, right? Like, I feel like people just think that that's something you do at your wedding now. They don't even realize what they're saying. Like, in sickness and in health, and rich or poor, like, that is what it's supposed to be. It's not supposed to be, oh, my husband loses his job, now he's poor, I leave because I have my bank account. You know, like, it's supposed to be through all those things because you found somebody that you trust, and you want to do life with, and you're committing to doing life with them, whatever that might look like. And people, I don't even think they realize what they're committing to these days. I don't. I think they're saying the words, and they're not really becoming one.

John: Right, yeah, a couple. Because it's not really till death do us part, right? It's until, till I'm done with you, I guess, right? Or we fight so much that we don't want to be together anymore, which is not, that's not the... You can't have that as an option. You can't think of that as an option.

Nicole: Well, you're going to fight with everybody. Like, I mean, look at your family, look at your friends. Like, do you have any of those people who you've never had any sort of argument or disagreement with? No, no. So, it's just not realistic. But it's a matter of resolving them. I think to get to the point, I mean, we were talking about this the other day too in the car about it's like plaque on your teeth, and the difference between couples who...

John: End up having a healthy relationship and staying together are the ones that go and visit the dentist to get the plaque removed, right? And the plaque is the bitterness, the hurt, the things that you've had in conflict before that builds up. If you let it build up, it turns into resentment. Plaque equals resentment. And then, you know, if you aren't regularly getting a cleaning, then that will build up until it becomes cavities and tooth decay, and the relationship decays.

Nicole: That's true, but I think the other thing about this, which is now we're going to really piss off some people, is the whole prenuptial agreement discussion here. So, I guess like we can talk about the finances because prenups go into that, but also like we've kind of talked about it with the 50/50 but the separate bank accounts and things like that too. And even if a man is leading and he has all the money and he's handling that, but he's like, "My wife, though, she'll spend all the money," right? How men can help their wives with that and, you know, what they should be doing in that situation too.

John: Right, right. So, yeah, I guess we'll start with the prenup since I know you're excited. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, the question everyone had asked me, being John Bulldog Mindset, you know, was, of course, "You got a prenup, right? Like, you have some money, you've already been through a divorce, right? Did you get a prenup?" And my answer is no, I did not. And like, did you ask me to get a prenup?

Nicole: No.

John: Did the topic even come up? Did you even say that you would, or did you ask me not to get a prenup?

Nicole: No.

John: Because a lot of guys were like, "Oh, well, she must have convinced you to get a prenup," and no, not at all. I made that decision myself, and I'll tell you why. Because I've been through divorce before. I already had my assets cut in half before, recently enough that I didn't forget it. And the thing about that is, I went into this fully trusting you, knowing that I'm all into this. I'm committed to this thing. Someone might say it makes logical sense. I mean, no matter how you feel now, you don't know how you're going to feel 20 years from now. You don't know what she's going to do, all of these excuses, or what if something happens. What if she cheats on you? What if she changes, right? You know, people ask those things, but I wouldn't have gotten married if I wasn't willing to make a 100% bet. And if I'm going to bet with my life, I'm going to bet with all my money too. I bet it all, right? Because I didn't want to happen, someone could say, "Well, yeah, you know, John, it still makes sense, even if you believe all that stuff, why not just put the paper just in case that you're completely wrong?" And the answer is because then you're not completely in, right? Because if I'm on the tightrope and I got my little pole, and I'm walking across the tightrope, right? And there's a net underneath me, am I all in on the tightrope? No, I'm not. But if there's no net, and if I fall, I'm falling to my death, I got to be real serious to walk across that tightrope, right? So, that's the thing, is like, and I'm not saying to not get a prenup. What I'm saying is, don't get married. What I'm saying is, if you're feeling like you need to get a prenup for any reason at all, then just don't get married. Live together, whatever you want to do, but don't make the vow until death you part, right? If that's not the vow you're making because, and the thing is, like, you might think there's no harm in it, but the harm is, psychologically, you know, there's the net. Psychologically, you're not going to be fully into it because you know there is a way to get out. You know there's something that you're not completely ruined, but if you're fully 100% into it, then when you do get into that conflict, and you are thinking about saying the D-word, or you know, you have second thoughts, you're like, "No, no, I'm fully into this thing. This is, there is no alternative. There's no what if she changes, what if she turns like," and so you got to also evaluate your partner and say, "Hey, this is worth taking any risk. I would bet everything I have on you, and I will. And I have, and I do bet everything that I have on you because I love you, and I trust you 1 billion percent."

Nicole: Right, I agree with that. And so, and I guess too, another point we made, just like briefly throw it in, is that, yeah, I think men do have to invest 100% like that and not do the prenup thing because that's what they really focus on a lot. And what a woman is investing is like biologically, her body being able to have children, bringing children into the world, and she's trusting you to be a good father and provider and husband, right, while you guys raise a family. So, it is like the tradeoff, right? Like, normally, men are getting women who are, you know, younger, and they can have kids, and then they're having kids with this person. And, you know, that's an investment that a woman is making. And same with a man, that if he can't put all of his money into a conjoined bank account with the one person that he's supposed to trust, yeah, then what is he doing?

John: Right, exactly. Yeah. And I mean, you can say that, you know, along those lines, that a man who made a wrong choice or mess, he could start his life over again and have a family much later in life. A woman really can't do that. Like, by that time, she might not be able to have kids anymore. A guy can have kids when he's 50 if he wants to, 60 years old if he wants to. Not maybe not the best idea, but he can do it, you know? I mean, a woman, her youth will be gone. Well, and it's harder for her to date when she has a kid too, for multiple reasons. So, she is taking a significant risk, and it comes back to that first episode, but the whole point of it is that you are thinking in terms of being one, right? And so, if you're thinking prenup, that's not thinking in terms of being one. That's well, same with the separate bank accounts, or like, you know, hidden bank accounts. If you know, "Oh, if this doesn't work out, well, at least I got my bank account that I didn't put all my money into our joined one," you know, like, yeah, I don't know, it's just so weird to me.

John: Having a separate bank account is like just in case, you know, "Don't quit your job, hun," or whatever. Like, make sure you have some money stashed away. When he gives you $200, take $100 and put it in. That's wrong, but people do say that. And you know what? It has become the normalized thing, especially among women, right? Because they're kind of hesitant towards men, but at the same time, they also don't want to be left high and dry if they do get a divorce. And then, you know, I also know some women who are going through a divorce, and the guy's dragging it out, and he's like trying to get 50/50 everything down to the table salt shaker. So, it's complicated.

Nicole: And I guess the biggest thing, too, is just knowing who you're marrying. And I'm not saying that things don't change and people don't change, and situations don't come up that you weren't expecting to happen. But like you said, you have to invest 100%. You have to accept the consequences if you accepted the contract of marriage, which is becoming one, right? Which people have forgotten. Then you have to accept the consequences. You have to accept that your husband might drag out the divorce for 500 years because he wants to be petty, or same with a wife. Or, you know, that you're going to lose half of your stuff or whatever. Like, you have to accept that. But you should expect that that's not going to happen because you're trusting that person 100%. That's the main thing. If you're really thinking about it, becoming one and trusting that person 100%, you're not worried about those things. But I'm just saying for the people who are like, "Well, what if this happens?" Because some crazy things do happen. But the actual answer is that you have to suffer the consequences of the choices that you made. Like, you can't have an actual good marriage if you're constantly setting up all these things behind the scenes of if you guys do get a divorce. Like, you can't be doomsday preparing for a divorce and have the fulfilling relationship and marriage that you want. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. You can't be having all these preparations and then have this happy-go-lucky, totally one union. It's just not possible, and neither people can do it right. Just like, you know, the guy can't get a prenup, or a woman shouldn't get a prenup either. And then the woman, if we're talking traditional roles, she shouldn't be squirreling away money into a separate account of just in case. Or like, "Oh, I can't quit my job because then I won't have any skills, and I won't, you know, if I get left high and dry." It's like, those are valid concerns. They are. However, if you have those concerns, don't get married. Like, or you're going to take the risk and say, "Look, I trust this man enough that I'm willing to, like, whatever ends up happening to me, I accept it." And that's what you're saying. And what's funny about that is we were talking about this the other day, too. It's like, you know, in fact, you read my mind on this because we thought the exact same thing. It's so funny how often you read my mind. But you know what's an interesting commitment people make? It's having a child. And I compare having a child to getting married, right? Because it should be the same. You don't just have a child and then you're like, "Uh, this one pooped on the floor, so I'm going to send him back." I think, or you don't sign a document that's like, "Well, I guess I'm going to have the child, but I want the option to have him adopted if I decide I don't want to have a kid anymore, or we don't get along well." Like, no, it's for life, no matter what. That child might become a serial killer, like, you know, but it's still your child for life, right? It's like, you're bound for life. And it's the same thing. And so, it's interesting how people will treat a marriage lesser than having a child. That is a lifelong thing. And it should be, you know, and that should be the responsibility. Again, like I said, there are some exceptions to it with abuse situations. But aside from that, that's what it really means to be one, right, in a marriage. Yeah, like even in a serious relationship, I would say, like, you should be heading towards these more solidified oneness, right? Like what we're talking about, like a woman takes on the man's last name. Like, you are now one family unit. You're one surname, right? Like, it's all about coming together, and people have just totally stopped thinking of marriage like that, or they're resisting against it. I don't know, or they're getting married for the wrong reasons, and then they're not happy. And divorce is less stigmatized and more accessible, you know? Like, I don't want to go back to the days where you couldn't get a divorce, or like people shunned you because you got a divorce. But people should take it... It's not so bad to go back to that. I mean, if you really think about it, maybe it's not so bad. Honestly, like, I don't think it's beneficial to shun anyone about anything. But a little social pressure, though, you know? I'm just saying that maybe there's a way for them to take it more seriously and really realize what marriage actually is and how far off we've gotten. Because people are so afraid to be codependent. They're so afraid to tell people that they enjoy spending time with their partner, or they're so afraid to spend too much time with their partner, and then they look too needy or clingy. Like, people are so worried about those things now that they're separating marriages under one roof. Like, some couples don't even sleep in the same room.

John: Yeah, I know. That's a trending thing now, actually. There are studies where they show that you get better sleep, and it's better. And I get it, but still, no. Like, you know what I mean? You can justify and try to make this... But it sure feels like they're trying to justify a thing rather than... Well, people are trying to justify it. That's why it's... This, what we're talking about, the division, is more normal than what we're talking about, the oneness. Like, this is going to be a foreign thing. Like, not so foreign, but a very strange thing to be talking about because people don't even... People who are married don't talk about being one. And a lot of people don't operate as being one. They view it so negatively. Like, we were even talking about how, you know, people joke about someone being like, "Oh, well, let me go ask my husband," or "Let me go ask my wife." And like, "Oh, why you got to ask her? You got to ask her everything? Your wife, you know, you got to ask your husband everything? You can't make...

Nicole: A decision for yourself, and that's what perpetuates this division. People are like, "Oh, well, I don't want to seem like I can't survive without my husband." But in reality, it's like, I'm not going to come home on a Tuesday and be like, "Hey, John, I just bought us a new couch." It's like if we were talking about buying a new couch, I would still even want you to go with me to look at it. Then I'd be like, "Hey, this couch is maybe $1,000 out of our budget. Do you think it's worth it? Do you think not?" I would consult you on all those things because it's not because I can't make the decision, it's because our whole household is us. It's me and you; it's not me or you.

John: Right, or it's not me sometimes and you sometimes. It's us, exactly. And so, I think all these things have gotten people afraid to even seem like they like their partner or they value their partner's input. They care more about what people say about them than their relationship, which we've also talked about sometimes in other episodes. And it works into the whole masculine-feminine dynamic. Like, I would say in that situation, yeah, the man should be making the final financial decisions in the relationship anyway. But people have a resistance to that, and part of the resistance is because they're not thinking of it as one. A lot of people that have resistance to the roles in the relationship, to the masculine and the feminine, a lot of their resistance is because they're thinking of separate individuals instead of one. But if you think of it as one, then it's one entity with two different aspects of that entity, two puzzle pieces that come together to make the one, a masculine and feminine side.

Nicole: And so, does it, you know, if a woman's offended, "Oh, I'm never going to submit to a man. I wouldn't follow a man's lead, or I'm my own strong independent woman," I can understand that perspective unless you're thinking of as one. When you start to think of as one, then it becomes silly. Then it's like one part of your body fighting against a different part of the body. It's like, "I want to be the head." Well, that's, you know, it doesn't make sense that you wouldn't think of that way. So, a man leading and being out there, being the head of the relationship, does not make the woman lesser because you're getting rid of the distinction between the two. You're merging as one, and not one is greater and not one is less. They all are part of one thing that's greater than that helps it operate.

John: Yeah, so, I think that it helps to think that way, and that's why I think there's also a lot of resistance to the traditional relationship, to the gender roles in the relationship, or the masculine and feminine, is because when you're not thinking in terms of one, then those things, you could pick them apart, and they don't make as much sense. But when you are thinking in terms of one, then it's like, well, what is best for the entire entity? Right, yeah. I was going to say organism, but we are one organism.

Nicole: Well, yeah. So, I guess that can kind of segue into something else we were talking about along these lines, is men who handle all the finances and things like that, and then be like, "Well, I can't let my wife do anything, or I can't, you know, put all of my money in one bank account because she doesn't know how to manage her money." Right, and I get that. There are some women that will act that way, there are some women who never learn those things. There's also men who embody these same things, plenty.

John: Yeah, and so, I also understand people too being like, "Hey, I can't give this person something like all this money, and they aren't being responsible with it." To what I would say is that, how can you help your wife be responsible rather than out here airing out her dirty laundry that she spends all your money on shoes or something, you know what I mean? Like, and I'm not saying that every woman's going to be super receptive to it, but there are certain things that you can do. Like, you can give her a budget. If she totally throws that out the window and doesn't care, give her a prepaid card with only a certain amount on there. Look, I'm saying this, not even...

Nicole: I know you're saying. I'm just, I'm ready for it.

John: But I agree with you. I'm just ready for the "but if you're one" blow.

Nicole: But it's true, exactly. But yeah, 'cause you're doing it from the right spirit of it is, I'm trying to help her, and you do have to come at it from a loving way. Like, you can give her a prepaid card without being like, "You can't do anything at all, so take this." There's that way some men will do that way, and then there's another way like, "Hey, you know, we've been on this, yeah, you didn't really have the best luck with the budget thing, so let's try this." Like, it has a certain amount, so you can use whatever you want, but it has only a certain amount. Like, you can still come at it from this loving way, and you are teaching her.

John: Yeah, and so many, I feel like, you hear men say this, but women say it too, is that view it as like, "Oh, I don't want another child. I don't want a dependent. I don't want, blah, blah, blah, like to have to teach somebody something." But like, this is your partner, your one. Like, why would you not want to help, exactly, your right arm learn how to do what your left arm can do? Yeah, like, it just blows my mind. And it goes, and you know, I'll set it out here for everyone listening, it's like the way that it should work in a marriage, right, outside of the marriage, marriage, it becomes a little bit more murky. But if you're in a marriage, the man should be in charge of all the finances for the entire house, whether both people work or not. If both men and women work, all the money should go into the same bank account, and the man should manage that bank account. And he should pay all the bills, and he should make the budget, and he should do all the financial planning and take care of all of that financial responsibility, 100%. Not his money, not her money. What happens in most marriages is, this is actually what happens, is that the man makes the money, sometimes, or the woman does too if they have a dual income, and then the woman manages all the money. She pays all the bills because those bills got to get paid on time. He's not responsible enough to pay those bills, that's what she thinks, and she's actually kind of being controlling in that case, which, and a lot of times for good cause, usually it's probably because the bills have gone unpaid.

Nicole: Right, but you got to let him fall down. You got to let the man mess up and not pay the bill and suffer the consequences.

John: But from a woman's perspective, it is scarier because, uh, it's like, since you are one, you're suffering one consequence, and women might not...

John: I feel like a man viewing it as Oneness might think it's just his consequences and not think about how he's also making her suffer consequences. It's harder for you to understand because you get it, but some men are very focused on themselves. That's where it's hard for women to suffer the consequences of a man who is not embodying everybody in the situation.

Nicole: There are two things I would say about that. One, don't marry that man if you don't trust him. And two, a lot of guys, once you actually give them the responsibility and they suffer the consequences, but also see their wife is not happy because she's suffering the consequence of it, they'll have to learn to step up. If you keep protecting them from their own responsibility, they won't ever learn anything. So, I think it is important to give that responsibility up. The man should be doing the finances. One reason is that a woman can't be in her feminine if she's thinking about all the bills and stuff. When it's sexy time, I don't want you laying there thinking about whether we paid the electric bill. I want you fully in the moment. Women can't do that if they've got that stuff going on in their head.

John: Am I talking the truth? It's hard for a man to understand, but I'm trying to appeal to men as to why this is important. Being masculine in their relationship and taking as much stress off of your wife as possible so she can be more in her feminine is critical. A man should be taking the checkbook, making sure he's not being a tyrant with the money, greedy, or selfish. In fact, I think most men would be more generous with their wives and with themselves in terms of gifts and spending.

Nicole: It all goes back to the Oneness. Like you said, two puzzle pieces fitting together. If you have two people acting both masculine and feminine, now you have four pieces to a two-piece puzzle. You take one piece from each and put it in there to balance out the dynamic and become one. One cannot really function without the other. If I was gone for a year or just gone forever, you'd be missing the things that I brought to our home, and the same would happen with you. It might seem like you could survive without me or vice versa, but you really do need both of those things. It's not a bad thing; it's what makes you one. You're depending on each other for those things, which is why you got married, which is why you became one.

John: And it's the synergy of it. How two people helping each other become one equals a better than perfect relationship. It equals more. 1 + 1 doesn't equal two; it equals three or four in this case. As you become more aware and more enlightened, you learn how to understand the opposite sex better and can embody some of those things. Even then, you choose to play the role, the masculine or the feminine, because it simplifies your life. All the things are still happening.

Nicole: Like if we were going on a hike in 1940, we'd need a compass, a map, pots and pans, and cookware. We could each carry our own set of supplies, or we could split it up. You might have the tent and the sleeping bag, and I might have the pots and pans. It's about being in it together, but your load will be less.

John: Synergy because now the 1 plus 1 equals three or four, and that's the whole Oneness in coming together. It's in having the masculine and the feminine. The relationship is, yeah, can a woman do just about anything a man can do today? Absolutely. Women become CEOs of companies. They can, I believe, even become weightlifters and compete, you know, in certain areas with men. Maybe not as well in certain areas, and vice versa. But practically, for all practical purposes, any woman can pretty much do what any man can do, for practical purposes, right? I mean, there are some extreme outlying things, but, and the same for men. Can men do what women can do? Yeah, you know, can they take care of a baby? Can they do... Of course, they can do these things, right? But it's not necessary to have those skills in duplication. It's a waste. And if you say, "I don't want to be dependent on someone else," then you probably shouldn't get married because you should bind yourself together in such a way that if one of you is gone, the other one is screwed, right? And again, you know, you can, from like if something happens and you die, and stuff, you can have wills and financial, and then yeah, then you have to operate independently at that. But until that day comes, you should be putting it all in and taking not carrying your own pack. If you're carrying your own pack, you're doubling the load.

Nicole: Well, what I mentioned when we talked about it earlier, and I feel like I should mention it now, is that people need to lean on the fact that before they got married, they did it all on their own, right? And instead of holding on to that in their marriage and for the rest of their life, when you get married, just take the knowledge that you had from that time of your life and knowing that you can do it, and hold on to that. But become one. Like, all you have when you get married is that you did it before, you did everything on your own. You could do it again, but you don't have to, right? So all you're really holding on to is the knowledge that you've done it before. You could do it again if you had to, not keeping separate bank accounts, not like actually living that way. You're only holding on to the notion that you did it, right? You know how to do it.

John: Yeah, and that's what people can do without feeling like, "Oh well, like I'm just giving up all my things." Well, like you said, you shouldn't get married if you feel like that. If you feel like you're just going into the oblivion, like you should know who you're marrying. But you don't have to live like Doomsday preparing. Like I said, you don't have to live like you're single in your marriage just in case you become single again. Like you were single before, you don't need to like do the actions to prove that you could do that again if, God forbid, that happened.

Nicole: Exactly, yeah, that's true. Yeah, and if it came down to it, then you would figure out a way to survive, you know? It's like, that's how. But you don't need to carry the double packs. I mean, if you end up, I guess maybe a good way to that analogy is like you're hiking together, so you don't need to carry the double pack. But if at some point you end up having to hike alone because your hiking partner's... You'll have the knowledge of when you hiked alone or when you had to, you know. You then can load up your own pack with everything that you need, and that's how it should be. But it's interesting too, because I had, you know, a friend of mine was struggling with an arranged marriage situation and asked him for my advice on it. And it's kind of funny because, I mean, obviously, I told him there were circumstances where it definitely didn't make sense for him to do an arranged marriage, especially with the pressure and everyone trying to get him. But it did make me think, and I was like, you should almost treat the marriage like a lot of arranged marriages actually do end up becoming successful because a lot of the culture is like, "Hey, you're together forever. Like, this is it. There's no... Like, I hope you like each other because you're going." And I was thinking like that mentality is actually a pretty healthy mentality. So, it's like, I'm sort of on the fence on arranged marriages, to be honest with you, because, you know, I do believe that there's some merits to it in the sense that what's instilled in those people is like, "Look, it's not about being attracted or love." I mean, again, not that that's a bad thing either, but that's not the primary thing. The primary thing is, "Look, you are going to have a person, and this person is going to depend on you, and you're going to depend on this person, and they're not going to be a perfect person." See, the illusion that we get into when we fall in love and we marry someone based on that is that sometimes we think that they're a perfect person. And then that illusion gets shattered. And so, they're already starting off with that illusion shattered, that this is not a perfect person. But you're going to love this person, and you're going to learn how to love them and be loved by them, and accept them for exactly who they are, imperfect in everything. And the same goes for you. And I think that's kind of a beautiful thing, right?

Nicole: And that's how we should be approaching it. We should have an advantage. Well, they're trying to do that with "Love is Blind" and "Married at First Sight," but it's still not working the way they wanted to. We should have an advantage, having actually seen each other, we picked the person, and you know. And if you can kind of combine those two things together, then you get what we're really talking about, which is this idea of a Oneness that's inseparable.

John: Yeah, I feel like people just shouldn't be afraid to be one with their spouse. Like, rely on each other, depend on each other, enjoy each other. It's so stigmatized. And I was on the other side too. I'm like, would see couple, happy couples, and be like, you know, I was a little bitter because I wanted to be in a happy relationship. Like, "Ew, they can't be like happy all the time," you know what I mean? Like, and I'm sure people look at us and feel those things sometimes too. But now, being in it, it's like, I couldn't imagine it any other way. And I've always felt like, though, marriage was very serious to me, yeah, and that it was always going to be like an all-in, like we're one person sort of thing. But, you know, a lot of people don't see marriage like that anymore. It's a lot easier, like we talked about, to get out of, and, you know, things like that. So, I do feel like it's taken less seriously, but it should be taken seriously because I think if you do view it as you are merging with this person, you are them, and they are you, right? Then it becomes a lot bigger of a deal, and it's a lot more on the line. And if you're still willing to make that...

John: Commitment means you really love, care, and trust the person you're about to spend the rest of your life with, and people don't realize the implications of it. I was on a podcast this morning where I was being interviewed, and the guy I was talking to, being divorced myself, and he was divorced. He was married for 20 years, divorced, and then unfortunately, his new wife that he married got killed in a shooting at a parade.

Nicole: That's so sad.

John: Very, very tough. But it was interesting because he was talking about how marriage is not, you know, he's very Catholic and very Christian. And I was also talking about the dynamic that, like, what's kind of cool about us is that we're not really religious, but we have like someone would think that we're fundamentalist Christian because we say the exact same things because there's truth in these things, right? And so it's like we can kind of appeal to maybe an audience that doesn't have to be religious, but these things are still true. But he was like, "Man, you could just be preaching," in the thing that we're talking about, about the sanctity of marriage, was how horrible divorce is. And I think a lot of people don't understand, and he understood because I was relating to my story about how, and you were there, that we watched my mom pass away from Parkinson's for seven days. And I told him that as hard as that was, that a divorce is five times worse than that.

Nicole: Yeah, he's like it's the worst thing that you can possibly go through in life, worse than death, worse than anything else. And people don't realize that it doesn't matter if you don't like your spouse. When you join together, the separation of that will cause you a great amount of disruption in your entire life.

John: Right. I think it's the people who don't take it seriously who, I mean, like they still deal with the part of like the annoyance of separating all the things, but there are people who don't feel that way. And I'm not saying that like one way or the other's right or wrong, but I think it's the people who aren't taking marriage seriously who don't feel as deeply as you do or the other people that you've talked about because I feel like the people who feel the way that you do did take it seriously. And that's the thing, is that like that's what goes back into you should be taking it seriously because I feel like people aren't as phased by divorce, not all of them, but these people who aren't taking it seriously to begin with.

Nicole: Right. So it's not that big of a deal, so then they just keep trying to do it, and they're not doing it the right way. Like it should mean exactly what you just said. It should be a big deal. It should be avoided at all costs.

John: Well, here's a cautionary tale about that because I get what you're saying. However, I've been coaching guys for over 10 years now, and I have worked with a lot of guys that have gone through divorces, and even some of my friends. And at the surface level, they're fine, but regardless of how they think that they're not going to, it's not going to affect them, when we dig deep, some of them don't even deal with the things that they need to deal with. But it's still like, you know, they all take marriage seriously. It doesn't matter so much. I think that it is still whether you take it seriously or not, it's a serious thing, and it will have serious implications, especially if there's, because remember, you're joining families. There's extended families, there's children potentially involved. There's a lot of things.

Nicole: Well, I guess I was going to ask what makes it so serious then, especially with the people that aren't really taking it seriously?

John: It's because, even if you're not taking it as seriously as you should, you have the extended families that are joined together, you have the children for sure, you have your job, you have your workplace, you have your friends, you have places you go to eat. Everything like your entire life will be completely torn from you. It's the change of it, the drastic change.

Nicole: Yeah, so, and then it just, there's something about it that's indescribable that someone who hasn't gone through it won't really understand. But I'm telling people that the very last thing you want to do on this Earth is get married. I mean, get divorced. Rodrigo, can you cut that one out? Get no, get married if you're going to get divorced, right? Like that's the last thing that you want to do. So don't do it. It's just not something that you want to go through, and people take it lightly because they don't realize what they'll go through.

John: But man, one of my friends, I was telling you about, you know, I won't say his name, that lives in Idaho, and he, I mean, you heard me talking to him, and he doesn't even, he wanted to get divorced, he still wants to be divorced, but he's still going through a lot because of it.

Nicole: Yeah, but I do think it's more of like the change which is hard, and anybody would think that that's hard for sure, what you said, the drastic change of your life, especially for 20 years. That's a really long time, changing drastically, so that would shock anybody.

John: But I'll tell you, but I guess my thing is like, I do feel like though the people that you've talked to have taken it seriously, so it's like it depends. But I'll tell you this, this is what I'll tell you though, I would go through 20 divorces to marry you.

Nicole: Wow, yeah, so, and that's true. I would. So yeah, well, now that we've went through the divorce part, that's the only time that you should be separated, and hopefully, like John said, you're avoiding divorce and separation. But yeah, was there any part that we missed? 'Cause we really were talking a lot about this and the oneness, and there were so many different aspects, but I think we hit a lot of the points.

John: Yeah, I think we pretty much covered it. I'm trying to think what else. I mean, it's yeah, I think the biggest thing that people resist is the financial side of it, and they don't realize that if you don't join financially, then it's going to be hard to join in other ways as well.

Nicole: I think it's an ego thing too. I think it's like what people think, and less of like just connecting with your partner and what you guys want to do. Like we want to be together all the time. If you don't want to be together with your partner and you want to live these kind of separate lives, it's almost like, well, what's making

John: You feel that way, like, can you fix it? Because I know you've been working hard to help guys specifically fix their relationship if they feel like it's kind of in a tough spot.

Nicole: Yeah, but again, I think it all goes back to picking your partner and putting the severity of marriage, if that's what you're going towards, in your dating experience out there. Think of it as becoming one. Look at this person like, could I be one with this person? We are each other, right? No contingencies. Would I be okay with that? If your answer is no, you shouldn't be with that person at all. Or, if you want to, just don't get married. Don't become one because that's what it is. When you get married, it's becoming one. Taking each other's names, becoming a family, merging your finances. Your consequences are now my consequences and vice versa. You're all in. You can't be not all in. You can't be having a bank account that you're saving for a rainy day when you guys get into a fight. It's not how it goes. You got to trust this person entirely with your life and suffer the consequences. Unfortunately, you have to suffer them, but I think people are just trying to avoid that. They're afraid, and again, they're thinking about them. It's all about me, the individual. How can I prevent this from happening if it does happen? And then they're almost kind of causing it to get worse and worse to head that way because they're so prepared for that to happen. And that's where all the conflicts in a relationship come from. It's always thinking about me. You never get into a conflict unless you're thinking about yourself.

John: Like you said, it'd be like your right hand fighting with your left hand. This hurt me, or why are they attacking me or doing this to me? It always has to be, you know. But that's something that I think is that you'll continue to trip up, you know, even if you're because it's so hard to not, right?

Nicole: Well, it's hard to not think about that to that extent because your life is yours. People say you think about yourself, and not fully, obviously, not be selfish, but it is your life, and you want to be happy and do these things. But again, when you become married, it's your lives together as one. So how can you guys balance it out with your two puzzle pieces to maintain that balance with the masculine and feminine? How can you give, how can I give you something, and how can you give me something to make all of our lives better and easier and more harmonious?

John: Exactly. Take the plunge or don't. Not one foot on the dock, one foot in the boat. That's not the way to go. You got to go all in. And that's why I think a lot of marriages also fail too. If you're one foot on the dock and one foot in the boat, they're going to separate enough where you're in the water.

Nicole: Yeah, you're most likely to, you know what I mean? If you're fully all into this thing, that's when you start to say, well, I'm never using the D-word for it. And you're like, we never use the D-word. I'm never going to use the D-word because that's not an option. And if you think of that's not an option, you're going to have to figure out, you know, it also controls what you say. If you're going to live with a person forever, you might not want to say certain things to them that you have to live with forever.

John: Right. So you're going to control your tongue a little bit better as well. But if you think that in that moment in your mind, you're like, oh, I'm just, I'm getting divorced from this person, this shit, you know, and then you call them some names and say some stuff, and then later on, you try to work it, but you said some stuff. But if it never was an option in your head at all, that divorce was off the table completely, then you might look at the entire disagreement in a different light.

Nicole: Yeah, so you're right. Alright, well, I think we can go to our week thing.

John: Oh, that's yours.

Nicole: Oh, great. So, we had a really good week, and then I did kind of mess it up a little bit this morning.

John: No, I did because, well, but I think it's related to just what we talked about. It's like you can know all this stuff, and then it's possible to get into the me mode and be like, how does this affect me, you know? And I do feel like I did get a little bit into that. So, I mean, we didn't have a huge whatever, but we had more of a discussion, and I do take responsibility because I was thinking in the me term.

Nicole: Well, I was too. And like you said, that's normal. It's a human thing. But when you're in a marriage, you do have to almost fight against your, especially in a disagreement or something like that, your fight or flight is in check. You're like, am I going to fight, or am I going to flight? And I guess there's freeze too. But you know, instead, you have to almost override that and all the natural instincts that are like, I feel this way, why are they hurting me, and I'm in pain, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Instead, be like, okay, what happened here? What did we do wrong? Because it's us, right? We both did something wrong. It's never you or me; it's we.

John: Right, exactly. Like even if you called me a fathead or something, there's still somewhere where I also did something.

Nicole: Maybe not deserving of that. I'm not saying that I deserve it, but I'm just saying there's something. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Which you would never even say that, trying to think of a thing. But I'm just saying that people, I did call you a fat ass, though, remember that?

John: Yeah, I'm like, you're like, what? It's a good, you got a fat ass. I'm like, you're not using it in the ER context. It was used as a compliment, not as a...

Nicole: So, just as a funny compliment. But yeah, you have to almost override that natural instinct as an individual and not go full-blown into the individual sort of mindset and think rather like, okay, where did we mess up, how can we fix this? And a good rule that I came up with today that I learned that I think would help me in the future is as soon as you screw up, meaning me, then your grievances are stamped void. Like, they're like, you don't get to worry about your grievance. So, for example, you're in an argument or a...

John: Discussion or something, and you handle it the wrong way, well then whatever the thing that you had a problem with is now void. And now because you've just done something as well. It's a good rule because it prevents you from getting into trouble. A lot of times, we do the reverse, actually. The other person does something, and then we're like, "Oh well, now it's justified. Everything I do is justified." It's to say if I do something, then everything I had a problem with is now null and void. I can't bring that up anymore because I am now the perpetrator. Following that rule makes a lot of sense to me.

Nicole: What about the mirror thing that we were talking about?

John: Oh, the mirror. Yeah, you had a really good thing about the mirror. We weren't on the same page with your mirror analogy. I thought you meant it one way, and you meant it a different way, which it still means the same but...

Nicole: Well, I said that a man, a woman is a reflection of the man she's with. So she's like a mirror, and she reflects back what you are. My original thinking of that was, you see a woman, and she's acting a certain way or she's got certain qualities. Those are the things that you have caused her to have because of how you have treated her as a man, and not loved her or not loved her in the right way. That's the reflection you're seeing.

John: But then you actually made it even better by saying it's an immediate reflection. I was like, "What are you talking about? That's not what I mean." But it's like what you're seeing right in this very moment is what you are doing right now. The actions that you're doing is being reflected back. I try really hard not to do that, and I try really hard to do the right thing.

Nicole: It's hard not to do that as a woman too. Especially because it's harder for me to influence you with my emotions and actions in that way, right? Whereas, if you started out in a certain way, then I would just match that. A lot of women match men, and that's the mirror thing. They'll match whatever energy there is. If there's hostile energy, chances are she's probably going to be hostile. If it's loving energy, depending on the woman, she might still be a little hostile at first, depending on how mad she is. But it's quicker for her to get... But I would say that women shouldn't be hostile at all. It's easier for her to not even act that way. But I also know that some women are a little much sometimes.

John: Yeah, that's how I was envisioning it. Is that how a man comes out of a situation, a lot of times he's met with however he handled the situation.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. That makes sense.

John: Well, good. Alright, I guess that's it for this week. See you next time we find our way.