Nicole [00:00:00]: Like, if a man wants to remain exclusive to one woman, why wouldn't he cut off all other women, real or virtual?

John [00:00:08]: Correct.

John [00:00:09]: That's probably the most accurate thing he said so far.

Nicole [00:00:12]: What would you do if you wanted to optimize for provision? That's easy. You would ensure the man has just enough rest for his body and mind to recuperate for tomorrow's labor.

John [00:00:27]: That's a load of horseshit. Plenty of men have other hobbies and things that they go out and do. Hearing a man say that when a lot of women go to a job, deal with the kids, cook the dinner, and have what, 30 minutes to themselves at night.

John [00:00:45]: Yeah.

John [00:00:45]: To do what they want to do.

Nicole [00:00:51]: We complete each other better than perfect.

John [00:00:55]: We stay.

John [00:00:58]: Every fault we find our way.

John [00:01:04]: All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John [00:01:13]: That's right.

John [00:01:14]: So, yeah, I'm. I can move my leg.

John [00:01:19]: Yeah, I can more than he probably should be moving it.

John [00:01:23]: I'm. I'm definitely ahead of the curve.

John [00:01:26]: Came in this morning without his brace on. I'm like, what are you doing? You told me you would wear the brace until you can bend it all the way.

John [00:01:34]: Yeah, but I don't, I don't need it. You know.

John [00:01:37]: You don't need it, but you should wear it just in case.

John [00:01:39]: Okay. For, you know, a little.

John [00:01:42]: Some of the time until you can fully bend it. Cuz I feel like when you can.

John [00:01:45]: Fully bend, it's close. We'll see.

John [00:01:46]: You are close.

John [00:01:47]: The next physical therapy, I think I'll be at. At enough to be considered fully. Because it's not like fully fully. It's like, I think it's like 110 degrees or something. Is.

John [00:01:58]: Yeah.

John [00:01:58]: Considered.

John [00:01:59]: That's like the max for your brace.

John [00:02:03]: Yeah, I think. Yeah, it's 110 is the max for the race. So, yeah, once I hit the max for the brace.

John [00:02:09]: So then you'll be good. Yeah, yeah. Because you gotta stretch it out. You don't want to like, God forbid something happen, like I said, and then. Yeah, like, it's still tight.

John [00:02:18]: But I am way ahead of the curve because according to the physical therapist. Well, I'm at week six after the surgery and just yesterday was week six. And according to the physical therapist, they normally unlock the brace at week 10. So it's locked in a fully locked position at week 10. So I've had it unlocked for a long time and I'm about to not even need the brace anymore. So.

John [00:02:44]: Yeah, you have gone super fast.

John [00:02:46]: Yeah. So I'll be running in two weeks.

John [00:02:50]: Come a long way from peeing in a cup.

John [00:02:53]: True. All right, well, yeah, so this episode, I think we're gonna do something a little bit different, right? We're gonna watch a YouTube video. We're gonna respond to a video from one of Ryan Taravan's videos on Psych Hacks, which is a pretty good. I think. I like his YouTube channel. I think it's pretty good. He presents a fairly balanced approach. But this video in particular, he did one on marriage, which was a lot. I think it's more biased. It's not exactly. I don't feel like it's as fair and balanced as a lot of his other videos. And so you watch it? I watched it, yeah. Yeah.

John [00:03:37]: Should I wait to say what I think?

John [00:03:40]: Yeah, I mean, I guess. Yeah, we can just. Yeah, we can kind of go through it, and then we'll talk about it. We'll pause it whenever, you know.

John [00:03:46]: Okay.

John [00:03:46]: So cool. Okay, let's start the video. Okay.

Nicole [00:03:52]: I'm Dr. Orion Taraban, and this is Psych Hacks, Better Living Through Psychology. And the topic of today's short talk is the Plow Horse. Personally and professionally, I've had the opportunity to observe hundreds of marriages up close. And I would say that after all I've seen, I could count on one hand the number of relationships that I wouldn't mind being in. And there was no man, not a single one, with whom I would want to change places. Now, I understand that relationships can look very different from the outside than they do from the inside, and that ultimately it's for the two people in the relationship and only those people to decide whether their relationship is sufficiently beneficial to endure.

John [00:04:40]: Okay. And I think we're going to have to pause it, like, somewhat in order to. If it's too long, then we could get copyright strikes and stuff.

Nicole [00:04:47]: So.

John [00:04:48]: Because it's a commentary, Right? So, I mean, so far, I think what he says makes sense to me. Anything.

John [00:04:56]: Yeah, it makes sense because I feel like most people. People know that majority of relationships, unfortunately, are really struggling with a lot of the things that we talk about on our podcast. So it's not surprising that he said that. And I like that he gave the benefit of the doubt that he doesn't actually know what is going on in those relationships and things like that. But I think you said that because the majority of relationships that people see today are dysfunctional or, like, you can tell that they're not the Healthiest of relationships. Right. So that part wasn't very surprising, in my opinion.

John [00:05:41]: Yeah.

John [00:05:41]: Like, actually is probably one of the only things I agree with, like, in this video, actually.

John [00:05:51]: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think the. The thing, too, is because he's saying that he wouldn't trade places. Right. Because it's like, like you said, most relationships are dysfunctional. And so if he's talking to guys, which I talk to a lot of guys as well. Right. I do a lot of coaching. I haven't found functional relationships.

John [00:06:11]: Yeah, right.

John [00:06:12]: Not really. And so.

John [00:06:15]: Which is not a dig. I don't want people to think, like, we're digging at people, because this is why we came on here, is to try to help people realize that we have things that we struggle with, and you're gonna have things that you're struggling with. And, you know, I don't think he's saying that he is looking for a relationship where there's never any problems either. But there is a difference between a healthy relationship where you work through issues and a dysfunctional relationship. And I do still think that most people have a dysfunctional relationship. That doesn't mean that you can, like, not fix that.

John [00:06:47]: Right.

John [00:06:48]: Or it will stay that way forever. But I just.

John [00:06:51]: But it's not a good metric. It's not. You can't be like. I think that's. That's kind of the flaw in his thinking in this, in this case, is that he's sort of saying, okay, I've talked to a lot of guys, and this is the conclusion I'm drawing from this. But, yeah, but if a majority of relationships are dysfunctional and that's who you're talking to, then you're going to have a jaded view of things, which seems correct. And it is correct from a empirical standpoint of like. Or from a, you know, statistical standpoint. But it doesn't mean that the institution of marriage, like, some of the conclusions he draws. Just because everyone's doing something wrong doesn't mean that the thing itself is wrong. Just like, you know, if I'm trying to think of something. If. If people were skateboarding and they didn't know how to skateboard and they're just falling all over the place and they're breaking their. Their shins and breaking their arms and stuff, you're like, oh, yeah, skateboarding. It's. You should never do it. It's just. It's just dangerous all the time. You're always going to get hurt. Well, it's like, well, yeah, but if you actually knew how to do it correctly, then maybe you wouldn't get hurt.

John [00:07:53]: Safely wear knee pads and stuff. Well, quick question. So he said that he talks to couples, but does he mostly talk to men?

John [00:08:01]: Mostly. Mostly men. Mostly men.

John [00:08:02]: Okay then, yeah, I agree with you that he's probably also getting a bias.

John [00:08:06]: I mean, he's a therapist as well, so perhaps he's got some of that. But I, I don't, I don't think he specialized in coupled therapy.

John [00:08:14]: Okay.

Nicole [00:08:17]: To decide whether their relationship is sufficiently beneficial to endure. However, despite these qualifiers, I couldn't help but feel that my observation was fairly damning of the institution of marriage to some degree. And that got me thinking, what was it about these relationships that I found so off putting? And the answer that I came up with is that the men in question just seemed so fucking whipped. Like they were so toothless and tame. Their wives became their bosses. Happy wife, happy life. It was just work, family, work, family ad infinitum. Their lives got so small, their freedom was non existent. And they often seemed like shadows of their former selves.

John [00:09:03]: And I think this is all accurate, right? Like this is what most men, this is something that we talk about on this podcast, right? So most men are whipped. Most men are not wearing the pants in the relationship today. Most men are letting the woman do however she pleases and she's the boss and they even joke around and say that, oh, let me ask the boss and stuff like that. Self degrade themselves. They're not being masculine and stepping up. And if you're in that kind of situation as the man and you get married, then it's not going to be a good marriage for you. So I agree with that part of it.

John [00:09:41]: Yeah, I think it's too that they're depressed in some ways because they don't have boundaries. Like they're just doing whatever they're told and so they don't actually enjoy a lot of things in their life.

John [00:09:55]: Right.

John [00:09:55]: Or they're afraid. They want peace. Right? A lot of men want peace.

John [00:10:00]: Yeah.

John [00:10:01]: And they don't understand that having boundaries and standing up for yourself and like trying to get that respect from the woman that you're with rather than just doing whatever she pleases is what is actually going to get you the peace in your life. They think if they're passive and they just, you know, don't make waves, there won't be any waves. Right, but there is gonna be waves because a woman needs to know that you're going to step up to the plate and do what you need to do as a man and she'll take that on and she will be the man. And the more that you just passively let her be the man, the more unfulfilled you feel. And the more unfulfilled she feels, even though you think that she's happy because she's getting whatever she wants, she's not. What she really wants is for you to step up. She's not doing it in the right way.

John [00:10:50]: Right.

John [00:10:50]: But that's why none of these marriages are attractive, because they don't have the polarity, they don't have the roles that they're supposed to have.

John [00:11:00]: Right.

John [00:11:00]: And it is causing men to be depressed and are staying in these situations where they're not really happy. But they're like, they don't want to break out of it. They don't want to do the hard thing of either having the boundaries or leaving the relationship if it's past the point of repair.

John [00:11:16]: Right.

John [00:11:17]: They would rather stay in something that's comfortable and miserable right then.

John [00:11:22]: Or even something. Or even, yeah. Deal with conflict, right? So cause conflict. If they're like, no, I'm, I'm leading this relationship. I'm the man, right. I'm not talked to like that. I'm not treated like that. You know, like I need to be respected.

John [00:11:37]: Right.

John [00:11:38]: But they're not doing that.

Nicole [00:11:39]: So like wild animals that had been shut up in a zoo, they seemed weak and listless and stressed. Many years ago, while climbing Boundary Peak, the highest point in Nevada, I came across a herd of wild mustangs in the high sage. Against the rugged backdrop of the snow covered mountains, the animals looked so strong and healthy and free. It was one of the most beautiful sights I have ever seen. I could not imagine any, any one of those horses preferring the bit and the bridle to a life on the open range. And yet in the world today, so many horses are yoked and harnessed. They are hitched to plows and made to carry the burdens of others. They are equipped with blinders so that they only see the task before them. They are gelded, castrated to make them more tractable. And they are whipped when their drivers are displeased with their efforts. The life.

John [00:12:41]: And I think this is a false analogy here because the analogy is correct in the sense that if you're talking about these whipped men who aren't very masculine, who are allowing their wives to rule over them and to be the boss of the house, then the analogy fits. But there's a missing piece here, which is that, yes, you can have the wild horses, right? The wild stallions out there roaming in, and you can say, oh, yeah, I can't imagine them trading that life for being bitten, Bridle. Right. To be workhorses. And that's probably true. But what about the situation where I think this analogy falls apart, which is that it's kind of saying that a man is either free or his wife rules over him and he works for her and he has to do everything that she says. Right, That's. But the third possibility is that the man is not free in the sense that he was as a wild stallion and can do whatever he wants, but he has a mission and purpose in life and he's leading. He's got a pack of stallions. Maybe that's the analogy. Right. And there's a woman stallion, a female stallion that's following this wild stallion and going on the journey with him. He's not going on the journey by himself. Right. Anymore. But he's got other people he's taking care of, but he's still leading the way in taking care of those people. So I think that's where he's created kind of this false dichotomy, because what he's saying sounds convincing until you realize it's not just one or the other. It's not just you're either totally free or you're totally a slave. There's also the possibility of being a leader and restricting self, restricting some of your freedoms in order to lead for a higher purpose, something that you believe in. To take care of other people.

John [00:14:40]: Yeah. The way that I interpreted what he just said is kind of like I talked to you about when you sent me this, and we kind of talked about it a little bit, is that it's just a super negative viewpoint because you could take even what he just said and view it instead as you were once a free wild stallion, now you're pulling this carriage. That carriage is your family. That carriage is the woman that you care about. And you're leading the way and you're taking them to the place that your family needs to go.

John [00:15:15]: Right.

John [00:15:16]: And you're doing the hard stuff in order to make their lives better. Because you're the man and you're proud of that.

John [00:15:23]: Exactly.

John [00:15:24]: Not that you're the slave, that you're just the horse that nobody cares about. No, you're the one leading the carriage to whatever destination you're going to.

John [00:15:32]: Exactly.

John [00:15:33]: And yeah, you have the blinders on because you have the discipline to get there and do whatever it takes, but.

John [00:15:37]: You Put those blinders on yourself.

John [00:15:39]: Get there.

John [00:15:39]: Yeah, that's the difference. And that's why, like, I like Ryan. I feel like he does have a lot of good content and that, you know, I think he's a good guy. I don't think he's a bad guy. But that's why I wanted to talk about this one because I feel like this does a big disservice because it's leading men in the wrong way. He might not. I don't think he's intentionally putting the.

John [00:15:57]: Blinders on these men. He's doing to men with this video exactly what he thinks marriage is doing to these men.

John [00:16:04]: Right. Because he's, he's forcing them down this path of believing that it has to be this way, which is creating the wrong. He's saying he's essentially taking the power away from men with this video. And again, I think he's a great guy. I'm not trying to attack him. I don't, I don't think he's doing this on purpose. But, but we notice this because, well, again, he's a single guy. Okay. He's not in a long term marriage relationship, so he's not aware of these things. But, but because of the way he's painting this picture, it seems really logical and it seems correct, which is the danger of it because it's creating a false dichotomy which is like it's not just one or the other. There's this other alternative. It's not, you're just being pulled along and you're the workhorse and you're, it's, it's, you're choosing that path, but you're the one who's leading in, who's in charge. Right. It's a greater purpose than yourself.

John [00:16:55]: Right. You get to choose if you turn into a horse that is being controlled by a woman.

John [00:17:01]: Right.

John [00:17:02]: Or you're the horse that is leading the way for your family. Like, it's just. I've seen some of his stuff and I don't think it's bad. I think he, you know, is obviously very intelligent. But this video, and I guess people can let us know in the comments too, if they agree, just kind of came off very negative. Like a lot of the content is these days that's become popular and I don't know if that's intentional or not or like you said, if, because he is single and, you know, maybe he's been burned by a woman and he genuinely feels this way, which is fine. But the issue is when you try to Convince all men that all marriage is bad.

John [00:17:44]: Right.

John [00:17:45]: Because it's not for all men.

John [00:17:47]: Yeah, it's a dangerous precedent, and we'll get more into it. But he's saying that this is how it's supposed to be, which I think that's the more dangerous part of it, because historically, again, we'll get into it more. But there has to be some logical part of him that understands the argument that families and the continuation of the human species is dependent upon nuclear families, which means that marriage has to be a good thing.

John [00:18:18]: Unless you go to our AI episode and then you can see what the world's going to turn into.

Nicole [00:18:23]: Of a plow horse is not a happy one. He exists to serve the needs of his owner. Too often, this is what I see when I look at married men. I see horses in harness. When I speak to them, they generally don't understand how this happened. They remember their mustang days. When they got married, they didn't think they were signing up for the yoke. They thought their girlfriend would stay their girlfriend, which is why they married her. They think their marriages are flawed and often ask how to fix them. However, I have to respectfully disagree with these men. Their marriages are not necessarily flawed. The life of a married man is the life of a plow horse.

John [00:19:12]: See, that's where he went the most dangerous. Because again, it's deceptively appeals to your logic, but it's not true what he's saying, because he's saying these men are saying this is flawed, and they're right, it is flawed. It's not supposed to be that way. It's not supposed. Because. And even if I were to talk to him, if we were to talk to him, right. If we had him here, which we needed him on here, but he, you know, if we're debating, he would have to concede the point that he's saying that, like, basically, if he's saying they're not flawed. Right. The debate that I would say is that, okay, if you're saying that this is how it's supposed to be, it's not flawed. Right. Then you're saying that a man should be whipped. Because earlier you said that these men are whipped. So you're saying a man should be whipped, that the woman should be the boss of the house, that she should wear the pants, obviously he would disagree with that. So then in some way it must be flawed.

John [00:20:07]: I think he's saying it's normal because like we said in the beginning of this episode, it's the majority, but he should know As a psychologist, that it's not normal to have the dysfunctional relationship that these men are talking about. And that even though that is the majority of relationships that people see in their everyday lives, that doesn't mean that they're normal. It means they're normalized.

John [00:20:32]: Exactly.

John [00:20:32]: So it's very, like you said, damaging to say, no. Marriage is where you're the plow horse to a man. And especially men today that don't have pride in being a man, they don't, you know, want to lead and provide even a lot of them. And so it, it's just, it's very much further perpetuating men's helplessness.

John [00:21:05]: Right.

John [00:21:05]: Which men, like already feel that way. So it's just, I mean, when you first sent me this, one of the first comments that popped up was like, I'm done. I'm never getting married.

John [00:21:17]: Yeah.

John [00:21:17]: Like, is that genuinely what you want for men that are watching this?

John [00:21:24]: Right. Or to figure out a way to figure this out in a way that you can propagate the human species and have the nuclear families that not just propagate the human species, not just about reproduction, but also create value systems and cohesion in society.

John [00:21:41]: Yeah.

John [00:21:41]: So it's equivalent.

John [00:21:42]: Well, you get the respect that you want.

John [00:21:43]: Yeah. So it's equivalent of if a woman said, I don't need a man, men are bad. And then someone was saying, well, yeah, so here's the thing. When a lot, I talk to a lot of women who are married and they say that the man just, he doesn't pay attention to their opinion. They just have to be barefoot. And.

John [00:22:05]: Yeah. I feel like the equivalent is in the kitchen.

John [00:22:07]: Right.

John [00:22:07]: A woman being like, men don't actually care about you. They just want to pump you full of babies and have sex with you whenever they want.

John [00:22:15]: Yeah. And you're just a whole. And you're going to make a sandwich, make sandwiches in the kitchen. You just cook and clean. And that's your, your lot. You don't have any. He doesn't really care for you.

John [00:22:25]: Like, you just have to do. You have to be the maid.

John [00:22:27]: And then someone's saying, yeah, that's how, that's not a flaw.

John [00:22:31]: Right.

John [00:22:32]: That's how marriage is designed. As a woman, you're just supposed to be the baby maker and sandwich maker.

John [00:22:37]: Right.

John [00:22:37]: That's how it's supposed to be. So you wouldn't tell a woman that.

John [00:22:41]: And do you think that would make women want to be with men?

John [00:22:44]: Right.

John [00:22:44]: No.

John [00:22:45]: No. And. But he's doing the opposite. You see, what I'm saying I don't think he's intent. I don't think he's aware that he's doing that. But that is what it is. It's the equivalent of what we just said.

John [00:22:56]: No, it definitely is. And when I watched it, I thought the exact same. I thought that anybody could make a video. As a psychologist, being like, as a woman, you're just only good for babies and like you said, making a sandwich.

John [00:23:10]: Yeah. It's a very victim mindset mentality, which is very surprising to hear from him because most of his stuff are about self empowerment and not the victim mindset.

John [00:23:19]: Right.

John [00:23:19]: Whereas this, it's a, it's a veil, the victim mindset mentality. Because when you flip it, and that's the thing is like, you can always test the logic on these type of things by flipping it to the other side and saying if this was talking about a woman and the gripes that women have about marriage and saying that's just how it's designed to be, there's no flaw in this. There's nothing you need to fix. It wouldn't work. So it can't work here either.

John [00:23:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:44]: This is not a flaw. This is a feature. This is by design. Why do you think they call it getting hitched? Marriage is a commitment to make a woman the primary beneficiary of your labor for the rest of your life. That's what it is designed to do.

John [00:24:03]: See, that's a false statement too. Like according to.

John [00:24:06]: Whoa, right.

John [00:24:07]: According to who? Who says that marriage. Marriage is, is designed so that you make a woman the beneficiary of your labor for the rest of your life.

John [00:24:18]: The thing is, it's just so negative of what men are supposed to be proud of. Like, men want to do things for people that they care about, especially their family, and they take pride in that. And that's actually where men feel valuable and useful. And instead of him twisting it, like I just said, and making it a positive thing that men should be proud of that like, you're able to provide all this for your family. He's like, you're providing all this and she's just going to use you for it. Which I'm not saying that there aren't some women that are taking advantage of men and treating them poorly. I'm not saying that that's not the case, but I'm saying that if you are telling men who already have a problem with seeing how providing benefits them as well too, and feeling useful and feeling good about themselves, and you tell them that Someone's going to take advantage of that, right? They're, they're, they're getting further and further away from their purpose as a man.

John [00:25:18]: Right? And this is where, this is where, again, the transactional view of relationships falls apart. Right? And that is something that he does say that he, he takes a transactional view into relationships, but it falls apart because you have to have a spiritual element to it. You have to have a purposeful or meaningful element to it. Right. We were talking about this earlier, but if you take a purely transactional view of relationships, even if they're not marriage relationships, just of relationships in general, not even romantic relationships, then it comes from a lack of any kind of moral compass or any kind of moral baseline that you're. So in that case, then if you're just thinking transactionally, then you should lie, cheat, steal, whatever you can get away.

John [00:26:08]: With so you can get your transaction.

John [00:26:10]: Yeah, because if I can get one over on you, there's. Why should I not do it? Because if we're just thinking transactionally, right, you might say, oh, well, there's consequences later on. Or what if you get caught? Or, you know, quid poke. Quid pro quid. Right, so like pro quo, quit. Yeah, Quid pro quo. It's a tongue twister. Yeah. Thank you. But there's many circumstances where you could lie, cheat or steal and probably no one's going to know and so why not do it? So if you have that type of mindset, then, yeah, then you can treat everything transactional. But that's why I'm saying you can't have that and most people don't have that kind of mindset. So then you have to say, well, is there some kind of moralistic standpoint that I'm basing my actions on, or is there some kind of meaning I've created out of life or purpose that I have? And so that's where the pride comes in of being a man of saying, yeah, things. I'm not just looking at it as, here's what I do for her and then here's what she does for me. I'm looking at as like, this is like, I enjoy being of usefulness, of being, being of service, being a servant, leader, and taking care of the people that are important to me. And there's not a transactional value to those things. It's. It's not like I can measure it and I can put it in my bank account, right. But it is still valuable, right? Everything. Just. Just because something can't be measured doesn't mean it doesn't have value. And that's the problem with this transactional type of thinking, because logically, it makes sense. Logically, it's very, very appealing because.

John [00:27:43]: Because it seems fair.

John [00:27:44]: Exactly. But, but there, there's something missing there which, which. And, and again, like we're, we're alluding to. Men are most happy when they're of use. Like the problem that we have in society today, the big crisis of masculinity, is that men feel useless when women say, I don't need a man. It's like, where, where's the purpose? There's no, there's no enemy to fight. We're not in tribal times where we have to hunt and kill. So men have lost their purpose and they don't feel useful.

John [00:28:13]: Right.

John [00:28:13]: But men still, deeply in them, have this wanting to be useful. That, that is the primary drive of men. That's why there's skyscrapers and buildings and all those things is because men are trying to create things to be useful.

John [00:28:28]: You know, men want to be superheroes, right?

John [00:28:30]: Yeah, yeah.

John [00:28:31]: Does the superhero, when they save somebody go, okay, so what are you going to do for me now?

John [00:28:34]: That's a great point.

John [00:28:36]: So the issue too, with this, like you said, with the transactional, is men have already become transactional, right? That's what do you bring to the table. And men don't see that what women bring to the table is not the same as what men bring to the table. And when you treat relationships like he's treating it and like you were talking about very transactionally, strictly, you will never be happy because a woman is not going to be able to provide you the masculine things that you're asking for because that's what you want.

John [00:29:12]: Right.

John [00:29:12]: And even if she does, she's not providing you a majority of the feminine things that you actually want.

John [00:29:20]: Right?

John [00:29:20]: Because if you wanted masculine stuff, you could just go be with man. But if you want a woman and you're viewing it through this transactional lens, she's never going to give you what you actually want because you're confusing her by asking her what masculine things does she bring to your life? Because that's what you value in your life and that's what you're measuring yourself with. And so you're measuring her with that because you don't know about femininity. You don't know what that really means. You don't know how to procure procurement, procure that from a woman, because you're not actually in your masculine. By asking, what do you give me?

John [00:29:59]: Right?

John [00:29:59]: And because like you said, the divine masculine doesn't say, well, what are you going to give me exactly?

John [00:30:04]: Because it's the wrong question. It's the wrong way of thinking. And I mean, and we talked about this before, but I think it's worth comparing this again to a. If you treated a transaction, your children, your relationship with your children as transactional, as a man, as a woman, it doesn't matter. You take pride. Like the, the joy that you get out of raising your child is not what they do for you.

John [00:30:29]: Right. I mean, some parents act like that too, though, unfortunately.

John [00:30:32]: But the gratitude, sure, maybe that. But. But in reality, what makes you feel the most fulfilled as a parent is that you have done service, that you have helped your child.

John [00:30:44]: Right.

John [00:30:45]: Not that they, that you help them.

John [00:30:47]: And then they paid you back, see you in the nursing home and take care of you when you're older.

John [00:30:51]: Yeah, that's. I mean, that, that's a, A perk. But that's not.

John [00:30:54]: Some people have kids just to have someone to take care of them when they get older. And that's transactional. But that's what I mean.

John [00:31:00]: I'm talking about the fulfillment that comes from being a parent, comes from the fact that.

John [00:31:04]: No, you're right.

John [00:31:05]: You raised, you took care of this person.

John [00:31:07]: People can still view even children as transactional, and it's not the way to do it. I'm not, I'm not saying to do that. I'm just saying, though, that that is an example of it even happening with children. But you're right, like, the pride that you take in being a parent is helping your child become their own person and, like, hopefully not struggle like you did in your life and, you know, learn lessons so they don't have to experience it, but also supporting them if they do. You know, like, it's not the transactional things, like you said.

John [00:31:38]: Yeah, it's never what they're gonna get, what you're gonna get back from it.

John [00:31:40]: Right.

John [00:31:41]: It's what you put into it. And that's the thing is. And that's even just the secret to happiness in life, because a lot of people are trying to find happiness by they're trying to make money so they can get something or they're trying to get good looking so they can get the girl whatever it is, or get the sex or whatever it is.

John [00:31:55]: And then they get that and they.

John [00:31:56]: Still don't feel fulfilled because it's not the thing that you get. It's what you give. It's what you put into life. It's the hard work that you do that gives you the pride of feeling of a sense of accomplishment or doing something or helping someone out. That's what truly makes you happy in life. And so when you're chasing what you're going to get, you're never going to be happy. It's what you give that makes you happy.

John [00:32:18]: Right.

John [00:32:19]: Just like they say, it's better to give than to receive. It's true. That's, that's, you know, that's the key.

John [00:32:24]: Giving is also a gift.

John [00:32:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:27]: And when this occurs, it is working properly. Let's examine this more closely. Consider the traditional duties of the husband. To protect, to provide, and to forswear all others. That's an ideal husband. Right. Now imagine we not only prioritized these duties, we optimized them. That the optimization of the traditional duties of the husband is the life of a plow horse. For instance, if we were to optimize for sexual exclusivity, like if we were to make it impossible for the man to have any other women in his life, what would you do? Well, you would definitely take up all of his free time. You would insist that he not follow other women on social media. You would prevent him from seeing his unmarried friends and strictly forbid time alone with other women. And while you might not literally, again.

John [00:33:24]: There'S so much of a. It sounds correct when he's saying it, but it's not correct because he's only presenting one option. But he's making it sound like the only option.

John [00:33:34]: Right.

John [00:33:34]: And also he said that these are the traditional duties. Traditional duties of a man to protect.

John [00:33:41]: To provide and not hang out with other women.

John [00:33:46]: Right. To be sexually exclusive. Right. So he lists these traditional duties of a man, but did he list the traditional duties of a woman? No. No. So he's saying in this bargain of marriage, the one that he's disagreeing with, which I also disagree with, that this, the way that he's presenting marriage. Yeah. You should never, ever get married. It's married. It's. It's a very bad deal. If you as a man are going to be a traditional man and you're not going to require the woman to be a traditional woman if she's going to be a woman who doesn't have any of her, she's the boss. She gets to do all of these things. And you. And you're bound by this code of honor. No, of course, if you're living in that way, which again, he's talking about these men that are whipped, then of course, marriage is a horrible, horrible institution for a man that is trying to live these values, but then is being. But doesn't have a woman. That's.

John [00:34:38]: These men are living those values.

John [00:34:40]: No, I don't think so at all. I don't think so.

John [00:34:42]: He's also painting a picture that these men aren't even living by, and then trying to compare it to women going wild and doing whatever they want, which I'm not saying that those dynamics don't exist. They do. Watch Secret Life of Mormon Wives. They do exist. So I'm not saying that. But at the same time, again, I just hear so much helplessness in everything that he's saying, because men also have a choice to walk away from these women. And he doesn't mention that at one point. Instead, he's saying, don't ever get married. Not, don't ever. Like, you should walk away from a woman if you're dating a woman who's acting this way and you're doing these things. Which, again, these men aren't even doing these things. And so he's painting a picture that doesn't really exist.

John [00:35:27]: Right.

John [00:35:28]: Because a man who is doing all of those things and respecting the relationship and protecting, providing, being exclusive to the person he's committed to should have respect for himself enough to not tolerate the disrespect from a woman who's not appreciating those things. And so this is really like, even though he's trying to paint it as the norm, which again, it's not the norm, it's normalized, he's kind of constructing a story to perpetuate his narrative of telling men never to get married. And it's not realistic. Like, he's using these things like, oh, I've seen these relationships. I don't want any of them. This is how all relationships are. Like, this is very normal.

John [00:36:12]: And.

John [00:36:13]: And then tells a story that is not even congruent with what he talked about in the beginning. Like, this is not a realistic story, in my opinion.

John [00:36:23]: And. And he's only presenting one. One because he's saying, okay, what if we want to optimize for a man's exclusivity? He says, then we have to lock him down, occupy his time, restrict him from hanging out with single friends or following girls on Instagram, which, again, he's painting the narrative that the woman is going to decide and control all these things, that the woman is in charge. He's assuming the woman's in charge. That's not the case. That's just an assumption that's being made. And also, that's only one way to optimize. If you want to optimize for exclusivity as a woman, yes. If you were in charge, if you were dominant and you can control all these aspects, you have a man you can control, then sure, that might be a great way to do it, is the things that he's mentioned. But. But also as a woman, maybe in order to secure his loyalty, maybe you do things like being a good wife and respecting him and appreciating him and showing him sexual desire and taking care of his needs so that he doesn't want to look elsewhere. That's another option. So he's just presenting one. And I don't think that is the most optimal way because think about it, which, which do you think is going to stop a man that's set on cheating from cheating or is going to going to prevent that more if you try and monitor him and try to like, give him a bunch of busy work and forbid him from doing things and. Or if you treat him right with respect and love and show him sexual desire, like, which one is more likely to prevent him from cheating? Honestly, do you think that, like, constantly monitoring someone and trying to control their actions is going to result in them being more faithful? It doesn't make sense. You see what I'm saying?

John [00:38:09]: I think you need to have boundaries. And I think that's what he's confusing because the things that he said aren't necessarily wrong. But a woman should also not be doing the things either. Like, it goes both ways. Like, you need to have that captain of the ship talk. But the thing is, these men aren't captains and they're definitely not going to be captains after watching this video because he's just made them feel like they're just workhorses. They're just work instead of a captain.

John [00:38:35]: Yeah, they're a deckhand. They're a deckhand on the ship and the woman's a captain. That's not the paradigm.

John [00:38:39]: No.

Nicole [00:38:40]: And while you might not literally castrate him, you would symbolically do so by monopolizing his sexuality and then withholding it. Which is what transforms sex from an act of intimacy and pleasure and connection into a carrot on a stick to keep the man working.

John [00:38:58]: Which again, just a quick note, he's saying that these situations are not flawed. Like if a woman normal monopolizing a man's sex and then withholding it, obviously that's not like, yeah, in that situation, things are going to be messed up.

John [00:39:15]: I want to know who These women are in this story because they must be like, fricking.

John [00:39:21]: This is a lot of women.

John [00:39:22]: They must have a golden vagina because why are you there?

John [00:39:25]: This is a lot of women. This is a lot of marriages. Lot of men. Like, he. Like, what he is correct about is.

John [00:39:31]: That why do men.

John [00:39:32]: This is 90% of men.

John [00:39:33]: Why do men stay?

John [00:39:34]: Because they believe that this themselves. Right? They believe this is how it is. Right.

John [00:39:40]: Some of this is they're not happy. So instead of blaming a woman, which I'm not saying in this, if that's happening, that is not good. And I'm not justifying the woman's behavior by any means. Right, but who is the only person we have control of?

John [00:39:58]: Right.

John [00:39:59]: Ourselves. And so this is painting the whole picture that a woman is control of you, but the reality is, is a man watching this or experiencing this? You're not in control of yourself because you're tolerating all this because she has no power over you.

John [00:40:15]: Right.

John [00:40:15]: She can't make you do any of these things.

John [00:40:17]: Right, Right, exactly.

John [00:40:19]: And instead of blaming her because she. She's making you do all these things, she's making you into her workhorse. She's making you do all this stuff. She's dangling things in front of you. Grow some balls and leave. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm getting a little agitated because I'm tired. And I'm tired of women doing the flip side. Like, yeah, I'm tired of women complaining about men. And then they also don't use their own two feet to walk out the door. Because if it's this bad, Right. Why are you there?

John [00:40:50]: Well, and he's painting the picture that these guys, they had a girlfriend. The girlfriend was great, and then they got married and some switch flipped, and suddenly she became this controlling, dominating bitch. Right?

John [00:41:04]: You've been married twice. Does that actually happen?

John [00:41:06]: No. It starts in the relationship before you get married. It's little things that you're tolerating, being disrespected, the control. A woman trying to control you, and you're allowing those things, but you're so infatuated at that point that you're like, oh, it doesn't. I don't care. And then you get married, and then those things that you let go grow because there is more security on her side. She doesn't have to play as nice. So there is a little bit of truth to it. But it started because she knew she could disrespect you. If you're the kind of guy that says no it doesn't go like this. You don't talk to me like this. You don't. You don't yell at me. You don't call me names. And you're. And you're like. And you basically draw that boundary and you're out of there or she changes her behavior, then you're never going to progress to the point of marriage. It just never happens that the woman is a submissive woman who respects the man and treats him. Right. And then as soon as they get married, that switches. Like, that narrative is painted many, many times. But I've been coaching guys for a long time, and I've been coaching them before they're married and after they're married. And I can tell you that the guys are already tolerating disrespect before they're married. They're just not as cognizant of it because they're so infatuated. Well.

John [00:42:20]: And it's unfortunately the consequences of their own actions. Right. Is there consequences of allowing disrespect to slide for so long that now it's blown out of proportion? And I'm not saying that anybody should be disrespected or abused or anything like that. I'm not saying that.

John [00:42:36]: Right.

John [00:42:37]: But I'm saying that this video just bothered me because it's continuously, like, making men sound helpless and not helping to empower men to be men and to stand up for themselves and do it in the right way and have a healthy relationship. Because even though the majority of relationships are in some degree what he's talking about, I don't think there's a lot in these examples that he's talking about. But I think there are a lot of dysfunctional relationships where men don't feel respected and women are running the show. I think there is a lot of those.

John [00:43:15]: There is. Yeah.

John [00:43:16]: But that is a consequence of men allowing themselves to be disrespected. And at any point, they can choose to not allow that anymore. And I'm not saying that that is going to 100% fix their relationship, but it's the only way it potentially can.

John [00:43:32]: But it might fix their future relationship.

John [00:43:34]: It's like, least get you out of that situation, if that's what it comes down to. And then now you have learned that you're not going to tolerate that anymore.

John [00:43:43]: Right.

John [00:43:43]: And you have a lot more confidence in yourself and confidence in yourself as a man because you stood up for yourself.

John [00:43:49]: Yeah. And it doesn't even mean getting a divorce or leaving the relationship, because some people are going to say, well, you've been married. Like, you guys always say that divorce is bad and you shouldn't, you know, you making a commitment and that's, that's true. And you have kids, but it, but you can still in be in a relationship, be married as a man and stop tolerating this like, you don't have to be like, ok, I'm leaving. You can be like, okay, you, you can't talk to me like that. I'm going to leave the room.

John [00:44:13]: Yeah.

John [00:44:14]: I'm not going to do like the things that you're asking me to do. If you treat me this way and demand them from me, I'm not going to do them. You know, yeah, maybe she's going to divorce you because she. But most likely what's going to happen is it's actually going to fix the relationship because she's going to start respecting you at first she's not. At first she's going to try and plow over you because she's been, she's been used to you being the plow horse. So she's going to be like, who the fuck do you think you are now? You think you're a big shot now? And she's like, you know, that's what happens when you start to put down boundaries. But over time, as people see that your boundaries are real and that you're not going to be disrespected. But then it changes. But the point is that you're never the victim as a man or as a person. You have to decide that you're not going to be disrespected, period. And then let the chips fall where they may. You don't have to walk out. But if someone is going to continue to disrespect you, and they're not, then they're going to walk out of the situation because no one can make you do anything. No one can control you. They can try to control you. Right? But when we start to act like we're the victim, like it's beyond our control, it's ridiculous. And so many men are stuck in this mindset. And what I'm saying, because they're watching.

John [00:45:24]: This, this guy is saying that these women have all this power over you, that they're literally dangling sex as a carrot in front of your face.

John [00:45:31]: You can stop, you can put a stop to that. You can be like, look, you're not going to do this anymore. Like this is, we're either not going to have sex at all. If that's, you know, you know, or, but you're not going to use this as a weapon against me. And I'm not going to try and earn it from you. Like, if, if you have the desire and want to have sex with me, we'll have sex. But I'm not going to do things like, I'm not going to be afraid of misbehaving or whatever. You just, you don't even have to vocalize those words. You just have to start taking those actions where the threat doesn't, it doesn't phase you anywhere. Because I can't threaten you if you don't care about my threat. Right. I can keep on trying to do it, but at some point, if you're like, I don't care, then. Then how? It's no longer leverage, you know, so it's like these guys are thinking that they're a victim, but it's not. And what I'm saying is not easy. I'm not saying it's easy. Especially if you've been in the situation you allowed to happen. Right. And I've been there. Right. But at some point you have to make a change and say, no, I'm not going to do this anymore. And that's when you actually become a man.

John [00:46:28]: Yes.

John [00:46:28]: You know, because a lot of men, unfortunately, I'm going to insult some people here, but they're boys. They've never learned to become a man. Their balls have never dropped. Right. And that's. And that's fine. Right. Like, but at some point you have to hear the truth and realize that that's on you. You know, it's not. You're not a victim.

John [00:46:49]: Right.

John [00:46:50]: So.

Nicole [00:46:53]: That'S how you would optimize for sexual exclusivity. That's not marriage done wrong. That's marriage done right under traditional social expectations. And on some level, that might be for the best. Like, if a man wants to remain exclusive to one woman, why wouldn't he cut off all other women, real or virtual? What could those women be other than a source of frustration or a temptation down a slippery slope? In any case, nothing good could come from it. So just cut them off.

John [00:47:27]: Correct.

John [00:47:27]: That's probably the most accurate thing he said so far.

Nicole [00:47:31]: What would you do if you wanted to optimize for provision? That's easy. You would ensure the man has just enough rest for his body and mind to recuperate for tomorrow's labor. His leisure and pleasure and enjoyment are irrelevant. He is a beast of burden. Beasts of burden aren't allowed to cavort in the meadow with their friends. Or to nap in the shade when there is work to be done. Both would be.

John [00:48:00]: Can you pause it?

John [00:48:01]: Yeah.

John [00:48:04]: That's a load of horseshit.

John [00:48:08]: Yeah.

John [00:48:09]: Because look, I. Okay, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe there are some women that don't allow their man to do things for themselves. I don't believe that though, because even a man who's sitting at a family function will fall asleep on the couch.

John [00:48:24]: Right? Yeah.

John [00:48:24]: So he can rest wherever he wants and people leave him there and they just let him do it. And plenty of men have other hobbies and things that they go out and do.

John [00:48:35]: Right.

John [00:48:36]: So I don't believe that. And then as a woman, hearing a man say that when a lot of women go to a job, right. Deal with the kids, cook the dinner and have what, 30 minutes to themselves at night.

John [00:48:53]: Yeah.

John [00:48:53]: To do what they want to do.

John [00:48:54]: Yeah.

John [00:48:55]: If they even have that. And then they start it all over again.

John [00:49:00]: And that's what.

John [00:49:01]: It's just a bunch of. It's a bunch of bullshit.

John [00:49:03]: And that's what a lot of these relationships are like. Because in a lot of these relationships that he's talking about, the woman is working. It's a dual income household. Now, it's different if it's a single income household. Right. Which is usually not the case. But usually if that's the case, it's more of a traditional relationship on both sides. Because what kind of man has like, again, all of these situations where the man is whooped, the woman's usually working? I mean, because what kind of man. This is where you would have to be a nut case. What kind of man is a sole provider of the household? The woman stays home and doesn't work and she's the boss and bosses him around. I mean, yes, I know that that does happen in those. And in that situation, very rare, I'm sure. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, yeah, it should be. It should be at least. But that's the end. That. That would be the absolute insanity. But again, he's using words like allow again, which, which is funny because I get in trouble for. For saying allow all the time when I'm like a man. You know, women are like, a man shouldn't tell me allow a woman or not. But he's acting like a woman can just use the allow word to allow a man or not. When the man's supposed to be the leader, he's supposed to want to be in charge anyway. You see what I'm saying? So again, he's creating a false narrative, as if the woman has all this power that she doesn't. Because that power, if she does have it is power that that man has willingly given up to her. And so she's not purposely constructing his day so that he works so much for her and doesn't have time to rest or to do anything. You know, that's. It's. It's a. It's a very convoluted story that that's being presented here.

John [00:50:40]: I will say, too, that maybe his perspective is true. If a woman is doing everything and she has no free time for herself, she is going to be pissed off. If you try to take free time for yourself instead of helping with some of the stuff. Plenty of women have talked about that, and plenty women live in that reality where they're handling all the stuff and going to work.

John [00:51:01]: Yeah.

John [00:51:02]: And then the man comes home and he just wants to play video games and not help her with anything. Like, a woman is not going to have a problem with man playing video games if she genuinely feels like he is contributing, like, to support the family. And she's going to want him to have time to rest and relax because she knows everything that he does for the family. But if she's the boss, like he said, and she's also doing all the work that the workers are supposed to be doing besides maybe a few things, and then the workers are resting on their laurels, of course she's going to be upset because she's trying to manage this whole system that has to keep going. The kids have to get fed, he has to get fed, they have to go to school, they have to do their homework. She has to deal with her work stuff, but you're just getting to sit around, right?

John [00:51:50]: Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. And if you are the guy that is working his ass off and taking care of everything, so your woman doesn't have to worry about all this stuff and doesn't have to work as hard and helping her out with all this stuff. And then you're like, I'm gonna go play video games. You're not gonna feel like you need to ask permission. You're just gonna. You're like, this is what I'm gonna do.

John [00:52:09]: Right.

John [00:52:10]: Right. Because you earned that. You're not gonna feel in any way like someone's gonna stop me from doing this after I've done all this other stuff. But that's not the case. Right. And even, like, I mean, you're a traditional wife, right. You work, you stay home. Right. I wake up at 5:40 in the morning. And like, why am I doing it? Are you making. Do you have a little whip? And you're like, work, good money.

John [00:52:31]: Get up, John, it's 5:00.

John [00:52:33]: Like, you can't stop me from doing. Like, you're like, oh, you don't need to. Right? And I'm like, no, no, because I'm driven, because it's my vision for our family and our house, not because I have to do it. I want to do it. Yeah. There's a part of me that's responsible for you and for our daughter, and I have those responsibilities that encourages me to do it. But it's also because I take pride in doing that. It's not like you've got a whip. And it's ridiculous to think that. And I'm not saying that. I mean, some cases, yeah, maybe that is the case in a marriage, but it shouldn't be that way. That's not the. He's trying to paint these. And the reason why I'm taking offense to this is because he's saying this is how it's supposed to be.

John [00:53:15]: Right? Or like, this is how marriage is constructed, which is not true.

John [00:53:20]: Right. And who did it? Who was the person who architected this? He's saying society's.

John [00:53:27]: Perpetuating it.

John [00:53:29]: Which there may be some truth in the. Yeah, yeah.

John [00:53:32]: He's part of the society perpetuating it. At this point.

Nicole [00:53:37]: Of his energy toward unproductive ends, he is afforded just enough relaxation to prevent injury, burnout, or divorce so that he might remain productive for as long as possible. And this is why women, and wives in general, are much more likely to tolerate certain forms of male leisure than others. It's simple. The more a woman understands that a given activity might indirectly benefit her, the more she is willing to tolerate a man's enjoyment of that activity. This is why, for instance, women are much more willing to tolerate men playing golf, which is associated with networking and negotiations, than, say, playing video games. Most women hate. Hate video games. They reserve their most shaming denunciatory language for men who play them. And they hate them because there is nothing in video games, directly or indirectly, from which women might benefit. So it is a selfish.

John [00:54:39]: But what's the real reason why women hate video games?

John [00:54:42]: Because your husband will sit and play them for six hours and not do anything else.

John [00:54:47]: Right. But if he's doing everything else and he wants to sit and play a video game, does a woman have a problem with that?

John [00:54:54]: No. But the reality is these people. Like, if a woman has an issue with her man playing video games. Like you said, it's. He's not doing what he's supposed to be doing and instead playing video games.

John [00:55:05]: Right.

John [00:55:06]: Or he is taking so much time that now he's neglecting other things.

John [00:55:12]: Yeah.

John [00:55:13]: They don't. Like you used to play a video game all by yourself. Like we play video games.

John [00:55:18]: I don't have a problem with video games.

John [00:55:19]: But you used to play video games, like, or video game that you got that you wanted to play. Yeah. And it's like.

John [00:55:25]: And you would encourage me to play.

John [00:55:26]: Right. Well and Right. And so I don't think it's fair to be like, women hate video games. You have to know why they do. And he's saying it's because it doesn't benefit the women. Women. But like also, if you're in a marriage, like you took the ultimate commitment.

John [00:55:41]: Right.

John [00:55:43]: I'm sorry, but you do have to alter things that you used to do. So if you used to stay up till midnight playing video games and then you go to work and then if you eat, you know, ketchup for dinner, like that's fine when you're single.

John [00:55:59]: Yeah.

John [00:56:00]: But like when you're in a committed relationship and especially if you have kids and like a family, like that now you have other people to consider. That doesn't mean you can't do what you want to do. But you might have to do it differently.

John [00:56:14]: Yeah.

John [00:56:15]: Or you might have to get other things done before you do it so that your responsibilities to what you need to do are done. And I feel like that is where women have a problem with video games is if other things are being neglected, including them. And if these men that he's talking about who are probably depressed and they're hopeless and their victim mindset, they're playing video games to dissociate. Right.

John [00:56:42]: To escape. Yeah.

John [00:56:43]: And that is also not healthy either. As a psychologist, he should know that when you're become addicted to something like video games or there's plenty of other things to become addicted to because you don't want to be in your own reality, that is a problem. And acting like it's not a problem because women just hate it and like, because it's something that you want to do for fun, that's not the actual picture. Like I feel like it's just a lot of the examples. It's not a cohesive example.

John [00:57:14]: Right.

John [00:57:14]: Or a realistic example. And it's very one sided, which does prove that he probably does talk to only men and not really, like do couples therapy. Which, like, okay, that's to be expected. But yeah, what shouldn't be expected from a licensed psychologist is perpetuating the victim mindset and hopelessness that men are already struggling with in society today. I feel like that's a huge disservice. I'm not even a man, but if I watch this, like, yeah, it's gonna pertain to men who are like, fight, like, hyped up on this idea and they're like, yeah, I'm never getting married. But you're also perpetuating the same sort of problems that you're talking about. Like, men are not going to learn to take pride in themselves. They're not going to, you know, learn how to feel useful to the people that they care about. They're instead just going to get further and further isolated, which is what men complain about so much like the loneliness epidemic. How is this fixing that? I guess that's my problem. Like, the problem is that it is just further pushing men into the negative mindset and gives them no hope to get out of it. And men already feel that to a huge degree in society based on what they say. And so even though this content might feel good to them, it's incredibly damaging.

John [00:58:46]: To them because it's not challenging their beliefs. It's just pushing them into the further into the victim mindset.

John [00:58:51]: It's the therapy that keeps you stuck.

John [00:58:53]: The logic test is what, like I said before, is always to flip it. If you had a woman that your wife was playing video games for six hours a day, would you be okay with that? Would you be. Or would you start to hate video games? Right.

John [00:59:08]: Yeah. Yeah.

John [00:59:08]: If she's playing, sometimes she's playing with you, whatever. Or like she's doing all the other things in life that, that you kind of expect from her, and then she's playing some video games, you're not going to have a problem with it.

John [00:59:19]: Right.

John [00:59:20]: But if literally every time you came home from work, your wife was sitting there playing video games, there was no dinner on the table. There is. The house was a mess, and she's sitting there playing whatever, Minecraft or whatever, you'd be like, what's going on here?

John [00:59:36]: Yeah.

John [00:59:36]: Right. So that's the logic test that every single. You can always flip it. And then if it. If it doesn't make sense, then. Then you know that this is a. Yeah, it's not a valid argument. Yeah, right. Because. Because when you try to pick apart these things, you gotta flip it.

John [00:59:52]: Yeah, I know. That's really smart and wasteful use of.

Nicole [00:59:55]: Time and energy, irrespective of how much the man in question derives pleasure or connection from the activity. And this, of course, is what transforms women into complaining nags. It's not the natural inclination of any animal to work itself to death. It must be whipped into shape, just like it's the owner, not the horse, who gets to decide when the horse is sufficiently rested, it's for the wife to whip the husband back into the harness when she decides he could be more productive. And if a man is unfortunate to lose access to the source of his provision by, say, losing his job, it's unlikely the woman will long stay to support him like a farm owner. She just secures another horse, one ready and able to work, and disposes of the first as discreetly as possible.

John [01:00:49]: Again, not to. But I know that is a false narrative that, like, yes, in some cases that happens, but usually when the man is kind of a worthless man anyway, and now he's lost his job and that's the last straw, especially when he's lost his job for being lazy or because he could have been doing other things. And now it's like, and now he's. Now he's lost his job and he's sitting around playing video games because that's what happens. He's not looking for a new job. And then she leaves. And then he's like, oh, she left me because I lost my job. She didn't stick around to support me.

John [01:01:17]: No, no. And you know that too, because I forget what clip we posted, but you saw for yourself all the women in the comments that were like, I supported my man for like six years when he didn't have a job. And you were like, why would a woman do that? But that's too. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I'm not saying that that doesn't ever happen, but as a woman who once provided for a man who didn't have a job when I was a young and naive, more so women will stay and actually foot the bill, especially if they've been leading the relationship, basically, anyway.

John [01:01:54]: Right.

John [01:01:54]: But like you said, men will be so, like, caught up in their own stuff that they'll be like, well, she just left me because I didn't have a job. No, she left you for a lot of other reasons and probably gave you a lot more chances that you didn't even realize.

John [01:02:07]: Yeah.

John [01:02:08]: Were happening. And she had to take care of stuff for so long that now she's like, you don't. You can't. You're just sitting at home Doing nothing. You're not even trying to find a job.

John [01:02:18]: Well, and here's the thing. It's like losing your job is not an excuse as a man, okay? I'm a man. I have responsibilities. I've got a wife to take care of, I've got a child. I have alternate plans. Like, I mean, I run my own business, but if I had a job, I would have savings, I would have many months of savings that we can sustain ourselves off of, right? I would have been working on my skills. If I, if I see it coming, I'm looking for another job already. I would, I would have a plan. I would have, I have other income sources coming in. Like I have all of these things going because I'm not going to be like, okay, well if I lose my job, then I'm screwed, right? That's ridiculous when people are depending on you. So again, I'm not saying that people can't lose their jobs and bad circumstances can, can't happen. But as a man, as a leader, right? If I were leading an army, I wouldn't be like, okay, well here's the plan of attack, right? Hope it goes exactly perfectly according to plan.

John [01:03:12]: I don't have any other plans, right?

John [01:03:14]: Like if something happens and we get ambushed, I have another plan. I'm going to still take responsibility. I'm not going to be like, oh well, it's not my fault, yeah, like, it's ridiculous. Like, and if a woman is upset because you're a man who lost his job and you didn't have another plan and she was depending on you, there's nothing wrong with that.

Nicole [01:03:35]: That's how you would optimize for provision. Again, that's not marriage done wrong, that's marriage done right. That's what's supposed to happen. And finally, protection. How would you optimize for protection? You already know the answer. The man is expected to sacrifice himself, both literally and figuratively when necessary for the good of the woman. Plow horses don't retire. They die in harness, ensuring the survival and well being of those they leave behind for as long as possible. And perhaps after their deaths, they are shipped off to the gloof.

John [01:04:15]: I don't think that's even true. I think plow horses do retire. I don't think someone runs an old rugged horse that can hardly. I think they retire them. I mean, maybe I'm wrong to render.

Nicole [01:04:27]: One final act of service to their owners. That's how you would optimize for protection. It sounds terrible, but you will always put something less Valuable between you in harm's way to protect yourself. You wouldn't use something more valuable as a buffer, would you? Like, no one is going to take a bullet for a horse, is she?

John [01:04:52]: Can you pause it? Okay, so, like, for as long as human history, there's been the, like, women and children thing, right?

John [01:05:06]: Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John [01:05:10]: Like, I don't like that. He's like, something more valuable and less valuable. Like, again, that's perpetuating men hating women and women hating men. Like, again, it's very negative. It's unnecessary to the conversation. And again, like, I don't think he's even necessarily right because I think that some women would sacrifice themselves for the man that they're with. But one thing that he maybe does have right, is that if a woman is doing all these things and running all these things, why is she gonna sacrifice herself for a man who is doing nothing, really, for their family unit and for her?

John [01:05:51]: Right. Then she is more valuable to the.

John [01:05:54]: It shouldn't be who's more valuable. Like, I don't like that language at all. Again, it's transactional, honestly. Yeah, it's transactional. And it's just like. Like, it's gonna get people like, I'm more valuable than you and. But it's just like, men used to care about women and children first, because God forbid something happened to them, they can continue on and she can raise the child and get them out into the world so that they can live their own life. Not that men can't do those things.

John [01:06:22]: Right.

John [01:06:23]: But she could reproduce more children. A man can't physically have children. So in order for the human race to continue, women and children are brought to safety before a man because that is what is necessary for us to continue the human race.

John [01:06:42]: Yeah.

John [01:06:42]: And so it's like, I just don't like. And I mean, I'm curious what you think about him saying all this, because I feel like it goes against everything. Like, I just said that, like, men have known and done since the beginning of time, except now.

John [01:06:57]: Right. It's pride. Again, what I say is the biggest thing that men lack today. And the reason why we're in such a masculinity crisis is because men lack pride. They don't understand that it's hard. Good like you. You're more. Is expected of you. Good. Like, these are. This is what pride comes from. Pride comes from knowing that you are working harder. Pride comes from knowing that your life is harder. Pride comes from knowing that no one can understand your struggles. And it doesn't matter because you sit there and serve anyway and, and you're bigger than that. That's how you can have pride in yourself as a man. I can't walk out the door and have pride in myself. If I, if I feel like it's on equal footing. I take pride in myself because I know I do the stuff that other people won't do. I know that I work harder, that my life is harder. But I, but, but it's. The consolation for that extra effort is that you can have something that you can never buy, that no one can ever give you, which is pride, which is invaluable. And I don't mean pride in the bad way of pride, but in the good way of pride of having that self esteem, of having that sense of accomplishment, of having that sense of a value of yourself because you know who you are and you know what you do and you know you don't expect anything in return for the service that you provide. That's pride. It's hard to explain it. It's hard to just under to tell someone why that's important because it's a feeling that you have that's irreplaceable. I can't give you a transactional reason. Right. Because people will say, well, pride seems pretty stupid. What does it benefit you? You actually die and you actually cause you harm. Because it's a feeling that you have that you know that that is, is immeasurable.

John [01:08:39]: Right.

John [01:08:39]: And that's what men are lacking. And they don't even know what pride feels like because they've never felt it in their life.

John [01:08:45]: Yeah.

John [01:08:45]: And so it's hard to explain it to you.

John [01:08:48]: Right.

John [01:08:49]: But when you feel it, when you understand it, then you, then you'll get the whole picture.

John [01:08:53]: They probably felt it at some point, but they don't know to apply it to their whole life. Right. Like in school maybe they did something that they were really proud of, that they did that should be your whole life. And like maybe he's coming, I'm going to give him benefit out, maybe he's coming from a place of, you know, the dysfunctional relationships and they don't really have the level of love and like respect for each other. Where a woman would die for a man, but that is a woman would do that. Romeo and Juliet, like each other, would die for each other. That is how a healthy relationship is. It's not one sided. Like as a man you should want to be the one to protect everybody. But as a woman in a relationship with a masculine man, you also want to protect him in a different way. And even if it was like violence, I think a woman would still do that for the man that she loves and respects and looks up to. So it's like, in the dysfunctional sense, maybe he's right, but I really still don't even think that he's. He's correct in this. And it's just very.

John [01:09:59]: Yeah.

John [01:10:00]: Frustrating.

Nicole [01:10:01]: Some lives are worth more than others. And the institution of marriage and the intersexual dynamics that it represents is one of the most pervasive ways in which this inequality is perpetuated in the modern day. Again, this is not marriage done wrong. This is marriage done right. So it is important for men to go into this relationship with their eyes wide open, optimizing for protection provision and sexual exclusivity has the plow horse as its logical endpoint. This is not an accident. This is purposeful and intentional. This is what is supposed to happen. Why men continue to sign up for this, why they leave the open range for the stable, is something that I'll discuss in a future episode, but I think that's enough for today. What do you think? Does this fit with your own experience?

John [01:11:00]: So that's basically the end. And again. And he's presenting this like he's got a quick question. Okay.

John [01:11:05]: Do you feel like a plow horse?

John [01:11:07]: No.

John [01:11:08]: I knew the answer. But you do all of the things that he talked about, which leads directly to being a plow horse. And so I think it's important for the end of this episode for you to talk about. I mean, you have already. But why don't you feel like a plow horse? Because he's saying if you do all those things, you're a plow horse and, like, that's where you're headed and your life is going to be miserable, I.

John [01:11:37]: Think because, number one, I know that I am the master of my life and my decisions. And I've made the decisions, the commitments I've made. I have chosen fully aware of what they are. So even if I have a large workload, I didn't. I. If I have a bridle on me, I put it on myself. But that's not even the case because I view it as me leading, as choosing where I want us to go in our relationship, in our lives, in our family. And there's certain responsibilities, but those are responsibilities I've taken upon myself. I've chosen this path because I find value in it. I have pride in what I'm doing. Yeah. Do I wake up at 5:40 in the morning and sometimes in many days. Work 10, 11, 12 hour days. Yeah. But I do that because I. I take pride in doing that. Because I want to be of service. Because my value comes from my ability to provide service, to. To be able to help other people, to be able to provide for you, to be able to provide for our daughter and to create a good life. And even, even beside that, even if I was single, right, If I was completely single, would I just live a life of lead? Like, no, it would be. I would feel worthless. I would still work my ass off. So that's kind of the false thing, is like, there's so many single guys that are working their ass off. In fact, I would probably work more hours if I were single. Most guys like me, most entrepreneurs would work more hours if we were single, Right? So how does that add up? It doesn't make any sense. There's no one driving, you know, we're driving ourselves. That's what it is. Because that's how we feel good about ourselves and feel useful and get that sense of pride. Because we want to be taking action, we want to be doing things, we want to be creating things in life. That is what a man's mission is. That is a man connecting to his purpose. And so. But this is all just. It's a very narrow viewpoint. And I think that many relationships are like this. I think he's accurate in saying that many men have adopted this paradigm, this false paradigm, but they believe it. And it's just like Westworld we're watching, where they have this belief that this is the world that they live in and these are the rules of it, and this is how it goes. But that's not the actual reality. Just because you believe something to be true does not mean that this is how it actually is. And so he's helping men to stay in their lanes, in these lanes, which is not the. There's more paths, there's more options than just this. And that's the problem with it. Even though I like this guy, I think he's a good guy, but I think he's very, very misguided on this. He completely missed the boat on this one.

John [01:14:39]: It just makes me a little nervous that he's one of the psychologists that people talk about that kind of keeps you hanging around, like, keeps you in what you're struggling with, rather than helps you work through it and helps shift your mindset. Because, I mean, after the conversation that you and I had this past week about some parenting stuff, and you were like, you just Gotta reframe this stuff that is so powerful. And even if you hear it and you're like, yeah, that sounds good, if you actually do do it in even one aspect really does work, and it really does put you in a better place. And I think people are so used to consuming negative content or content that they don't even realize is negative like this. They think they're listening to somebody respectable, which I'm not saying he's not respectable, but I'm saying he has a title. And so they're like, what he's saying must be true because he's a professional.

John [01:15:34]: And also he presents well and he's persuasive and he's logical. He's not like these red pill guys that are screaming and yelling and saying all kinds of crazy stuff. And that's the. That's the danger of what he's saying.

John [01:15:44]: Right? But it does keep you stuck in that.

John [01:15:46]: Right.

John [01:15:47]: And that's really what, as a society, is causing so much harm to all of us is the constant negative from both sides. Women being negative, men being negative. Collectively, we're negative. Politically, we're negative. Like, we genuinely and desperately need to flip a lot of the things that we're putting out there for in the world to a positive light and things that we can do rather than the helplessness, the victim mindset that is being perpetuated now. And so, you know, I think that people need to realize that the negative content and the content, angry content that you're consuming has a lot more effect on you and your mindset than you think it does. And even if it's not, even if you're not listening to content, if you're talking to yourself negatively, right. Constantly, and you're calling yourself a victim and you're thinking about how hopeless life is and pointless and what's the point? You'll get more of that. But if you find even some few positive things and focus on those things, you will feel differently and you will want to continue to do that in all aspects of your life. Because even these men, if they could look at the positive things that their wife is doing, wow, she's handling everything right now. When I've kind of, no offense, been not stepping up and doing what I need to do as a man, I really appreciate her for doing that. I'm gonna, you know, take over those things that I should have been doing to begin with.

John [01:17:16]: Right.

John [01:17:17]: You know, or, you know, she's nagging me. Well, like, she, you know, it's not probably the best way, but she is trying to remind me of these things that I should just be doing anyway. Like, I should have the discipline to remember to do these things. And I'm kind of dropping the ball. Like, I'm not saying tolerate disrespect or abuse, but it's like, you can reframe anything in your life and try to make it better. And I'm not saying that your relationship will get better 100%.

John [01:17:46]: No. But your perspective can be changed. It's, like, weird, because I was telling you about this last week is we all have stories we tell ourselves. We believe those stories. We see that as reality. Reality are facts, things that happened.

John [01:18:00]: Right. Like, we're sitting at the table right now.

John [01:18:03]: Everything else is a story we've told ourselves about. An interpretation of those events.

John [01:18:08]: Yes.

John [01:18:09]: And that's the problem, is this is a story. He's telling a story. A story that a lot of people have told themselves, a lot of men have told themselves, but it is a story. It's not the facts.

John [01:18:19]: Yeah.

John [01:18:19]: And so the beautiful thing about this is that you can tell any story you want, so why tell a negative one? Just like I was telling you about when I messed up my leg. I won't go into it because we're way over time. But. But when that happened after I had been working really hard and. And did 75 hard, and I was on day 63, I could have told myself the story that, oh, this ruins everything. This always happens to me Now I'm not even going to be able to run anymore. I'm going to lose all my progress. I'm going to be miserable now. Like, this is. I'm ruined for life now. My YouTube channel is going to tank. Like, everything is ruined. And that could have been my story, and I would be in a misery. I wouldn't be here recording this podcast if I made that story for myself. But instead, I made a different story with the same facts, the same events happened. And my story was, this is awesome. I needed this. I was trying to actually work on ego detachment from my identity. And this is giving me what I actually wanted. This is a chance for me to. To actually take rest and to learn how to rest, because I can't do anything. This is a chance for me to start doing programming again and to, like, focus on that thing and to feel okay with doing it, because it's out of my control. This is a chance for me to, like, go through rehab and. And, like, it'll be a new challenge for me. Like, these are the stories I told myself and I'm. I'm in one of the best places I've ever been in my life. This thing that someone would say is maybe one of the worst things that happened to me ended up putting me in the best place because of the story I told myself. And that's the key.

John [01:19:53]: Delulu is the Sululu.

John [01:19:54]: Yeah. If you're believing that all of this stuff, this story, it's a destructive story that will destroy you, the facts might remain the same. Your wife might be yelling at you, she might be trying to boss you around. All of these things might be true. You might be working really, really hard. But if you're telling the story that it's because you're a plow horse, right, and you have no control over this and you're going to go to the glue factory when you die to be of more service. That's a horrible story. Instead, tell a different story. Tell a story of a. Of a hero who's coming of age, who's going to have his balls dropped down for the first. But tell a story of how that, that. That these are challenges in your life that are forged, that this woman, in this situation was created for you specifically as a forge to make you into iron, to make you a stronger and better man, to make you see these things so that you can improve and you could grow and you could learn to not tolerate disrespect. Then you could learn to stand up for yourself and be the man that you were meant to be. That's a better story. Same facts, but better story, better outcome. Right? It's all about our interpretations. It's all about the stories we tell ourselves. And that's why this is dangerous.

John [01:21:06]: Yeah, I agree.

John [01:21:07]: So there you go.

John [01:21:08]: Mic drop.

John [01:21:09]: All right, we're way over.

John [01:21:10]: I don't think we have anything for this week either, so.

John [01:21:13]: Yeah, so good.

John [01:21:14]: All right, keep it that way.

John [01:21:15]: That's it. Check us out. Better than Perfect Podcast or. No, better than perfectpod.com. we have the website up. If you go to betterthanperfectpod.com you can subscribe and when a new episode comes out, you'll get an email, you get the. The summary, show notes, all that cool stuff. So, yeah, so jump on over there. If, if you haven't already, Better than Perfect Pod, subscribe and, and leave us.

John [01:21:41]: A review, share videos with your friends, family.

John [01:21:44]: You can even leave comments on the episodes there, too, on the post. So, hey, there you go. Yeah, you can interact with us. All right, we'll. We'll see you next time through every f.