John: Going back to what these women are saying, I read it for the story. If you're wanting to spice up things in the bedroom with your husband, you can Google things. Here's the thing, because all the women were like, "She doesn't read." I read plenty of books. I'm onto 50 books. I love stories as well. None of my stories have to have explicit sexual content in them for me to enjoy the story. They don't think it's the same. It is the equivalent of hearing a man say, "I watch porn for the story."

Nicole: Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find no... Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. That's right. So yeah, we got a spicy episode for you today. We're not gonna reveal the topic just yet, but it's been... it's a hint though. It's very spicy. People are going to be upset about this, but that's okay. Try to hear us out because we're also going to try to say this in a way that you understand that we're not judging you. We understand why this is happening, but we also just want to show our side of the coin here and explain our part. And I understand it still might upset you.

John: Yeah, and it still might piss you off, and that's fine. But the other side of this does have to be talked about. Fantasy meets reality. We're just going to bring the reality to the fantasy. Like the more logical side of it. But yeah, now it's a big mystery.

Nicole: I mean, it's been an interesting week. Do you have any new P. Diddy news for us?

John: No, but I feel like the women on the topic we're talking about are acting like I gave P. Diddy those thousand bottles of baby oil personally. That's how they're treating me in the comments, but you know, it's fine.

Nicole: You had a rough week in the comment section. There's like 300 comments, but granted, I'm also responding to people because I'm like, okay, I will hear your side. There's never a time where I won't hear your side. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to agree, the same way that you might not agree with what I'm saying. But the thing is, people have a really hard time accepting differing opinions or even respecting differing opinions.

John: For my opinion, it wasn't even offensive. I get that. I will say that maybe people did get offended by me saying that if you're 100% fulfilled, you wouldn't need these books. And I understand I probably shouldn't have assumed that that is the true thing. Now you've given away the topic, but that's okay. But you know what, we're going to have to dive right in anyway because we got a lot to cover here. But I will say that there maybe I did say things that still came off a little bit judgy. Or I know people were mad, saying things like, "Oh, well you act like your relationship is so much better." And like, I can't compare my relationship to yours, but I can compare it to the other ones where I was in.

Nicole: Right, where there weren't these restrictions on things, or I won't even say restrictions, but understanding of why these things aren't beneficial to the relationship. And this relationship exceeds all of those combined by however many miles it takes to get to the moon. So, like, I get that they're like, "Well, you don't know how my relationship is." But also, at the same time, you don't know how good ours is. And we try to bring people in on the things that we do, which makes our relationship better and creates deeper intimacy and all those things.

John: Yeah, so they got upset when I said that we probably have deeper intimacy than most people. But at the same time, you know, it is logical. Like we just said, if you save all of your sexual energy for your partner, you're going to be more deeply invested in them, right? And your relationship and your connection with them, versus if you also are giving some of that energy to the book you're reading or the videos you're watching or whatever other way people do things, I don't know these days.

Nicole: And I don't like the argument of, "Oh, you don't know our relationship. You don't know my relationship." Look, you're right, I don't know. But I can tell you this. I don't know what your cake tastes like, but if you tell me what ingredients you put in it, I can have a good idea. I haven't tasted the cake, but if you tell me, you know, you put a frog in there and some vinegar and some chocolate chips, I can pretty much guess what it tastes like. I might be wrong, you know, I've been wrong before. But I'm just saying, it's like, it's a ridiculous straw man argument to say, "Oh, you don't know what our relationship is like." Yeah, I can look at what's on the label and I can guess what's inside. So, that's it. It doesn't mean that we know exactly, but we can, when we look at things that are negative for a relationship, you can expect that there's probably going to be some of that in there. Now, maybe some people overcome things, and they have things that you would consider to be bad or not as good for a relationship, and they have a good relationship, perhaps. But I'm just saying that, you know, when we're talking about this stuff, we're not saying it's because we know every single person's relationship. We're just saying that, look, if you mix a cake with these ingredients, this is usually the outcome that you're going to get. So, I think that's fair.

Nicole: Right. But like you said, a lot of people are putting frogs in their cakes, I guess, you know, because it's the majority. And I even said that to one of the people in the conversation because they were like, "Your opinion is the minority." And I'm like, "I understand that, and I understand that you guys aren't going to agree with me." And, you know, I guess I did expect them to be open-minded, but that was an expectation I probably shouldn't have had. But you know, I get that it's so normalized and it's so common that someone saying something different is very like, "Oh, don't threaten our thing that we like here." But at the same time, just because the majority of people are doing it doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing to be doing, especially if you're in a relationship. Like you and I have talked about this throughout the week because we've been dealing with the comments and things like that. But I don't even see a huge problem with some of the books if you're single.

John: Right. I know you think differently, and I'll let you say what you need to say because I also agree with your side, even though I'm sitting here telling you that if you're single and you're reading these books, that's fine. I will say that the area, without shaming anybody, that I still have a problem with...

John: Though there are very extreme, dark, and violent books that people are proud of. They make it a point to say, "Oh, I read extremely dark," which I feel psychologically cannot really be benefiting you. However, like I said, some of them, if you're single, handling business on your own, I don't have a problem with that. But I know your side of it too is also good to hear, and it makes a lot of sense.

Nicole: Let me back up a little bit and kind of set the context. And just also, I think the other thing we should state is that we're not religious. So we're not coming from a religious standpoint. Most people that talk about this subject would, and I think people would assume they're like, "Oh yeah, you're just judging. God doesn't like that." Not at all, just from a purely practical, pragmatic, for your relationship health standpoint. Everything we say, it's not religious-based. Yes, it does align with a lot of religious people, but that's because of logical sense, in our mind, rather than religious. So, the context, if you haven't guessed it already, it is erotic fiction and whether it is similar to porn. A lot of these women are like, "No, it's not smut novels. You can call it fanfiction, even romance novels." There's obviously different categories, but what kind of sparked this was in one of the episodes where I said, and we got a clip of it where I said that a woman reading romance novels is equivalent to a man consuming porn, or saying that that is a form of porn. We said it would be classified to us as cheating.

John: Well, yeah. And we said if we're going to classify porn as cheating, and obviously there's various degrees, and I don't want to be like, "Oh yeah, if anyone looks at any kind of porn, that's absolute cheating." There's a difference between sleeping with someone or having, you know, texting someone. There's various degrees, obviously, that have different severities. But if you're saying that any kind of sexual expression outside of the one with your partner is cheating, then porn is cheating, erotic fiction is cheating. There's a lot of things that fall into that category. Just to clarify all that. And the other thing I wanted to clarify before we got into this topic was also that because the clip, I think some people got the impression that I was saying that porn is okay for men to look at but romance novels are not okay for women to read. That is not the case. I unequivocally stated and still state that porn is bad for men and erotica is bad for women.

Nicole: And you know, again, I help guys to get off of their porn addiction. It is an addiction. Now, getting to what you said about the single person, if you're single, is it good for a man who's single to watch porn? And the answer I would say is no because from a psychological perspective, we know that it's destructive. We drew the conclusion that erotic stuff is porn as well, which we'll get into more of why we think that. Look, and I'll do it from a guy's perspective. If a guy's addicted to porn and you get into a relationship with him, do you think he's going to stop being addicted to porn because it's an addiction? If a woman is addicted to romance novels, and I know it seems like such an innocent thing. I realize how crazy I sound. I realize that 99% of the world would think that I'm a nut saying that romance novels are porn or that romance novels are bad. It's also because it was a clip, so short, there's no other explanation, and then people can speculate whatever they want after.

John: Right. A lot of women are actually addicted to romance novels, treating that lightly. They know they are. Now, the romance novels, even the light ones, are like a man being addicted to looking at Instagram. But a lot of women are addicted to hardcore, I don't want to say sick, but some of it is sick because I saw well, abusive things that you would never want a man to do to you in person. They're so upset with you, saying reading a book would be cheating.

Nicole: Right. But they don't have a problem with a man doing things to them that they would have a problem with if it was not in the bedroom. If it was like their husband got pissed and did those things versus in the bedroom. They're going to act like they don't want those things in real life either, and we'll get into that later. But I just wanted to add to what you're saying. They're getting so angry at you, saying essentially that you're making your relationship better by not indulging in these things. They act like they never want a man like you, and they act like they want a man that would do the things they read about, which they would never ever want in their life because the man would go to jail if he did them to her in real life. Without going further down that wormhole, we'll go back. But I had a problem with people viewing you this way, and granted, I think even you explaining it further now, they would understand more. To be honest, I was in the comments being like, "No, porn is also cheating," and then the women would be like, "Oh, okay, that makes sense." They would understand it, but I think the edit did take a lot of things out of context, and it did look like some man just being like, "I'm the man, don't read books," which is not how you are.

John: Are Gan I am Gastan no which is hilarious I think that's who you're going to be. Now, I ate eight dozen eggs and okay, we don't have time for a song break, but yeah, what...

Nicole: I was saying is that even a single woman, right, if you're addicted to romance novels or erotic fiction, I'll try to avoid using the word smut even though that is the definition. But, well, you know, just I don't want to insult people unnecessarily. But if you're addicted to romance novels or erotic fiction as a woman, do you think when you get into a relationship, you're not going to still be addicted to it, right? You know what I'm saying? And it's changing your sexual behavior and wants. And, you know, our brain, the other thing about this that's so important to understand, and again, a lot of this research comes from porn research on men, right, and addictions, is that the way that we're wired sexually, and we were just talking about this in the elevator too, is that many times your first exposure to some sexual stimulus becomes a fetish, right, because your brain remembers that. But also, so your brain is trained...

John: On what you get off to, no, it literally is because I actually did some research on this today. Yeah, yeah, that when you're young and you stumble across your first whatever, right, on the internet, we all did it, right? Doesn't matter what it is, if it ignites that sexual desire in you, you get that dopamine going. And for women, it is a little bit different. Like, women can get the dopamine faster and throughout the entire thing, which I think also kind of, you know, perpetuates maybe it going further and further, right. And men, it's typically they get that dopamine hit at the end of whatever they're doing. But regardless of that, when you're a child and you don't really understand, and you see this thing for the first time, you're still getting that dopamine. You're like, oh, this sensation in me feels good, right? Like as adults, we don't even really think about the sensation of being turned on. But when...

Nicole: You're a kid, that is a very intense sensation that you haven't felt before, right, because your brains are developing, and now you're noticing these things that you didn't notice before. So even just the feeling, this new feeling, right, you become addicted to it, right, exactly. And then you come across whatever the thing is, and you're like, oh, that felt really good. And also, as kids, your brain is not fully developed, so you're just thinking, this feels good equals do more of it. Mhm. And that's why a lot of kids at like 8, 9, 10, when they come across the thing, their parents catch them looking at inappropriate things, and that includes literature, that includes words, right. And if you're going to sit here and tell me that you don't think that's that big of a deal, that if an 8, 9, 10-year-old came across one of your books that you're talking about, and they became addicted to it, and they were just sitting at home reading these books 24/7, that you wouldn't have a problem with that, and tell me that's going to not mess up their sexual future, right, their view of sex. It's even worse because they haven't even had sex to realize that that's not how it's actually happening, right. And I've read this podcast transcript, right, and heard a lot of this from a lady with like a PhD, and I can't remember, but you know, she's psych thinking it all through, and she was saying that you do have to find a way if your kids are accessing things like this, be it videos or erotica, she literally said that, right, that you have to prevent that from happening. Now, you don't want to shame them for it. You want to ask them questions and be like, I'm here for you. I will get you books that are educational on this thing, but you cannot view these things, right, because they will destroy the image of what healthy...

John: Intimacy is. And unfortunately, yes, when we become adults, we have choices that we can make, and that is your choice to make. But every kid and every person, and I'm sorry for the people who didn't have this, do deserve to at least start out with healthy versions of intimacy, right. And if you're 20, if you're in your 20s or 30s right now, you probably don't, you probably got exposed at a young age, maybe some haven't, and you don't even know that you don't have a like. And it's not to be offensive, but I'm just saying, hey, also, I was coaching, and I was in the dating industry when I was coaching guys, and like the stuff that women in their 20s and 30s, like what they like today, you know, it's, I'm not going to mention it here, but we know what that stuff is, and it's not good. And it came from this, you know. Well, here, I'll put my own self out on the line to be...

Nicole: Shot down or whatever. The first thing that I came across sexually was erotica, not like full-blown, not dark, yeah, very slow, very tame, very vanilla according to these people, right. But again, as a child, that's all new to you. Mhh. And I wouldn't say I got addicted to it because I didn't really know a lot about sex, and I wasn't using that as like a total baseline, right. And so, in my personal experience, there was a little bit of like, I don't know what is really going on. I don't want to go down this path too far, you know. My parents didn't really discuss it with me, but I could have very easily have come across something. Granted, I think there wasn't like, you said, there wasn't this really dark, heavy stuff back then, so I think I got lucky because of that. But who's to say that I wouldn't have gone down the same path as some of these people if what I first came across was similar to that. But all the people that are like, you've never even read this, like that's actually how I started, and I'm not ashamed. Like, I don't, I'm not opposed to reading that in the sense that, like, if I was single and that's what I wanted to do. Granted, I never really wanted to do that, right, so it never really came up to me, right. And I think the thing that I read was a more intimate experience, so I feel like I do have a healthier view on sex. Like, I would never want some of the really degrading things happening to me because of the things that I had read. So again, I'm glad that I got that sort of experience, and I realize most people don't, that are coming across these things. But for the women who are like, well, you've never even read it, like, I, that's how I started, right. And I'm sitting here telling you that when you have healthy intimacy...

John: Try, and you're both involved, you don't feel the need for these books.

Nicole: Exactly. When you get addicted to it, and maybe the thing is, I didn't get addicted to it, right, or, right, there's multiple things. But if you're addicted to it, then you are going to feel like, no, it's fine. I can read these, and I can still have this. Like, plenty of people with an addiction are like, no, it's fine. I can still go about my life, and yeah, it looks like you can on...

John: The surface level, but you're not getting below the surface level, right?

Nicole: Yeah, that was a gap session, but I wanted women to know because they're like, "Well, you've never read one, and like, you don't know," and it's like, I'm coming from you to you as someone that has literally done the thing that I'm trying to explain to you. And I've read them. Okay, I read 50 Shades of Gray. I know people are like, "Oh, that's light. I'm not impressed when you tell me that 50 Shades of Gray is light." Like, I get it. I get what you're trying to say, and I've known of darker things, and I've read darker things. I've done my research on it and plenty of romance novels. I've read plenty of them because I recommend that guys read romance novels to figure out what women are interested in.

John: That's good you mentioned it because a few ladies, I won't go too far on the tangent, a few ladies were like, "No, it's about the possessiveness and the obsession this man has with the woman. It's about he'll do anything for her," and they don't even realize. Like, I'd be like, "Give the book to your husband, not to you," because you're fantasizing about this person rather than... I'd give it to my husband if he wasn't stacking up like that and be like, "Here, learn a few things." Maybe that's a little harsh, but there is an element of it. And I think to sidetrack a little bit here, just to understand the psychology, well, one thing, just real quick, I got to circle back to, which is that neurons that wire together fire together, right?

Nicole: So what I was saying before, which you said about children, but it applies to adults as well because we have neuroplasticity as adults, which means that our brain can still change, learn. Uh, is that if you repeatedly get off to something, your brain will wire the circuit so that those images or those thoughts or those fantasies are wired to that arousal. Mhm. And you will need to seek more and more stimulation to achieve the same effect, just like a drug. And that's how you go darker and darker down the hole, and you will get to a point where the only way for you to be turned on is to look at or consume really dark stuff, right? It's the exact way that, unfortunately, a lot of male predators end up going down the path and doing things to people and doing stuff that we're not even going to talk about on this podcast, but it comes from that, right? And that's because our brains are wired, and no one is immune from this. If you look at stuff, and they, and again, these studies have been done on men with porn, is that they keep on going darker and deeper into it because it's not enough.

John: Well, here's one thing that I will say on that since we're here. I believe these women don't want these things done to them, especially the extreme things, right? But that doesn't negate the fact that you cannot sexually reach a high level of satisfaction with your partner because you are being turned on, whether you admit it or not, to these very extreme things, right? That you know you would never do in real life because they're so extreme. Right? So when you're actually intimate with your partner, yeah, you might be able to orgasm, or you might be somewhat invested in it, but you're not at your highest potential because some of your sexual yearning is over here in this very dark area where you can't even physically do those things, right? Because I think men typically will risk it because they are more sexual to go and do some of the extreme things. Women don't typically do like really extreme sexual behavior, usually because they're also reading about like aliens and whatever, fairy princes, I don't know. But what they don't realize is that there is part of their sexuality that is only, uh, what is the word, activated or quenched by this, right? Or they'll have to fantasize while they're doing the act about the things in order to get to where they want to go, right? Not good. Right? Whereas, like you said too, I think, and I was going to save this for the end, but I think it's good now. I think that these people, if they would be open to not reading their books for like a few months, right? And investing with their husband and really investing in their actual real-life physical intimacy relationship, yeah, and increasing that, I think that they would realize what we're saying. And what they don't realize too is that they would be training their brain back to reality, right? Just like men have to do when they have porn, right? They have to go cold turkey, right? Because, and then they retrain their, that a lot of erectile dysfunction comes from that, and then when they stop it, then they're able to be aroused again by normal women, by normal situations. So, and one thing I want to address with this, though, is because where does this come from, right? Because why do women like these dark things, right? Why would someone fantasize or read about someone being degraded or abused and treated in that way? And it is what you said. There's a healthy version. This is a perversion of a healthy desire, right? And so let's talk about that because the desire is what you just said that women were saying, which is to be dominated. That is a desire of women, right? It sure doesn't sound politically correct, but it is. It is, especially in the bedroom, and for them to be submissive, right? For them to feel the power of a man and to feel like they cannot, that he is more powerful, that he can overpower them, you know what I mean? That is a natural desire. That is a feminine desire to feel overwhelmed by a man's strength and power, right? And so the perversion of it is where it has to be felt in a violent way or a degrading way because if a man degrades a woman or is violent with her, he's doing those things. He is dominating, and he is exhibiting power and making her feel, uh, not powerful or under his command or under his power, his might, right? But there's a healthy version of that desire, which is just simply, you know, there's a difference, you know, as a man, even I think this is good for men to understand, is that you don't have to do the kind of extreme stuff, even if she's asking for that stuff, but you can still display your dominance. You can command in a strong voice, right? To say, "I want you to do this," or "Get on the bed," right? That's not abusive. It's not degrading. It's just saying, "I'm calling the shots here," right? You know what I mean? "I'm in charge of your pleasure," right? That's fine. Those are fine. Even the power, there's nothing wrong with holding down, you know, holding someone down. There's nothing wrong with even some degree of bondage and stuff like that if it's for that to create that feeling, but those are healthy ways in order to achieve those desires, and those are natural desires, and those are fine.

John: Right, so we're not trying to shame people for their desires, which are natural. It's just that the world we live in has perverted those desires in a way that, because the way I'm talking about fulfilling those desires, it increases intimacy, closeness, and trust. You're not increasing intimacy when you're calling someone an asshole, or doing violence to a woman, even if she's asking for it. That's not increasing intimacy; it's a way of avoiding intimacy. That's why these things exist, to get these needs met without having to be vulnerable and actually have true intimacy.

Nicole: And that's why it's destructive to intimacy. I get it, I understand romance novels, I understand these books, I understand the appeal. People think they're innocent, and that I'm being extreme, but it's psychologically not the healthy way to get those desires met. The more you get them met in that way, you're training your brain to only get them met in that way, making it very difficult to go "vanilla," so to speak. And people say that as if it's a bad thing. I'm not a Quaker, but experiencing true intimacy, trust me, it's far from vanilla. What you just made me realize is it's all a disconnect from reality. Reading the books is a disconnect from reality, and even wanting something in the bedroom that you wouldn't want in your everyday life is a disconnect from your reality.

John: Like saying, "Okay, you can stab me a little bit in the bedroom, but if a homeless man on the street did it, I'd be outraged." It's these things that you would never want in normal everyday life but are okay in a certain context because you're disconnecting from reality. I understand probably how you got here, and a lot of it's probably not even your fault. It's probably things you came across on the internet when we all shouldn't have been on the internet, or some sort of experience happened to you.

Nicole: And the thing I really don't get, and you kind of talked about it, is how people are trying to justify that this helps with their trauma. One woman literally said because the abuser gets abused. That's not fighting fire with fire; it's everyone getting burned. In what world might you feel good for an instant reading that book, thinking justice was served or revenge is great, but you also just witnessed someone else being abused. If you justify certain things with certain people, then you're already disconnecting from the whole point of what we're trying to say. I genuinely ask some of these people, is it exposure therapy? Because maybe I could see that. But I don't think that a fictional novel is the way to heal your trauma. Going to a licensed therapist or somebody who can actually help you process the reality of what you went through, not some fairy king or alligator woman, is what's needed. Reading books doesn't fix it because these women would be like, "I don't have trauma anymore." They're perpetuating the trauma, probably triggering themselves without realizing it. You think that because the abuser is being abused and the person saves the day at the end, things will turn out good, but you still don't feel like your trauma is resolved because it's your personal thing that you have to deal with. You can't go off into whatever fantasy world and deal with it.

John: If the book on trauma is "The Body Keeps the Score," I've read that book. Nowhere in that book did it say that you should watch other people go through your trauma. There are plenty of techniques if you do have trauma and want some help. Unfortunately, when people have an addiction, everybody does this; they justify and gaslight because they feel shame. The purpose of this podcast episode is to help people come to terms with it and stop living in the darkness and come into the light. It's not a judgment; it's not saying you're a bad person. It's understanding that these things are not healthy for you, they're not helping you, they're not reaching your goal. And a lot of women are justifying their behavior, saying, "Oh, my husband likes it." That was the first one, why men should care that their women are reading these books.

Nicole: Let me talk to men and to women as well. A lot of guys are like, "Oh, this guy's insecure. He doesn't please his woman; that's why he cares if she reads books. I don't care; she knows I'm better than some fantasy." I get that viewpoint, but here's the thing. It's not about someone being better than you, but understanding that women have higher standards than men, in general.

John: Would tolerate if her husband or man was obsessed about reading some books about Amazonian women, big-breasted Amazonian women having orgies with the main male character. I'm thinking of the equivalent, you know what I'm saying? That would probably be, I don't know, something like that, right? A fictional fantasy. And if he was obsessed with it and he was reading these books all the time, right, and talking about just like, and was in book clubs about these books and online on the forums, and then he gets, he gives her more action because he's more turned on because he's in the mood because of these, right? Or he has to read one of the books before he can even be intimate with her. So, I'm pretty sure that any woman that witnessed that, that her man was doing that, would be like, "What? Am I just a hole? Do you, it doesn't matter, you're just turned on because you read your stuff and now you want to use me? You're using it, right?" Or she'd be also probably like, "What? That's weird, that that turns you on. Am I not enough for you?" Those are the kind of things I would imagine that a woman would have a high enough standard to do, wouldn't be like, "Oh well, I'm getting more action, so I'm happy." So, that's the thing is, and again, I use fiction erotica in that case, but you could substitute it with porn if a man is addicted to porn. So, I just use that to make it an apples-to-apples comparison because I don't want people to say it's a different thing. But so, what I would say to men is that, are you really comfortable with your woman being turned on by something that's not you and using that in the same way, essentially using you, that you're not able to create that effect in her, that she's using this as an aid or something as a supplement? Because a woman would not tolerate that. That's why it's weird when men, and I understand why men tolerate it because they want sex, and they're getting more of it, and she's more turned on, and she's more adventurous, and all of these things. And I get that, and it's like, yes, in a way, gentlemen, that's great. You're like, "Oh wow, it's Disneyland." I get it, but at the cost of your own pride, your own dignity, you are sacrificing your dignity in order to get more action, and that is not going to make a woman respect you more. It's going to make her respect you less because she knows that in the reverse situation, she would not tolerate that, but you're tolerating it, and so she's losing respect for you. And you might think your relationship is great, and you're having a lot of sex and stuff, but what's happening internally within her matters, and it matters to the intimacy of the relationship. So, if you have any balls and if you have any standards for yourself, stop tolerating it. Do not just the same as if a woman wouldn't tolerate you doing it. And again, I'm not saying being a jerk or anything like that. I'm just saying, like, understand, have a conversation, and say, "Look, I do like the additional fun time and all that stuff. However, I am concerned about this because," and explain to her the reverse situation. Like, "If I were doing this, how would you feel about it? Would you feel like maybe you're not enough, or even if you're getting some benefits from it?" And have that conversation because you need to sack it up as a man because it's a weak position to have.

Nicole: I totally get it, and I understand the temptation, but it is a weak position as a man. It's not a respectful one. Yeah, I mean, I agree with everything you said, especially going back to some of these women's arguments of like, um, that they don't want in real life what they're reading about. So, it's unattainable for the man, really. And like you mentioned in some of the other discussions we were having, that you can still look up new things to do in the bedroom without reading a novel, right? Because going back to what these women are saying too, like, "I read it for the story." If you're wanting to spice up things in the bedroom with your husband, you can Google things, and they're probably, you can find things to do that are very similar to what you're reading about in the book. Yeah, but you want to justify that it's for the story. And there's plenty, here's the thing, 'cause all the women too were like, "She doesn't read. I read plenty of books. Yeah, yeah, you're on to 50, and I love stories as well too. None of my stories have to have explicit sexual content in them for me to enjoy the story." And I replied to some of them 'cause they were like, "Oh, it's for the story," and they don't think it's the same, but it is the equivalent of hearing a man say, "I watch porn for the story." And there is a difference, in different, well, okay, so first of all, if we go down to the, what would really be considered smut novels or dark erotic fiction, I, you know, I don't, I apologize for offending some authors, but it's trash literature. It's not good literature, okay? It's just not. People admit that openly. It's not, it's not, I understand it's still a work that you've created, but it is not, it is just like a porn movie. It is not, it is not that because that's the focus of, hard to write a plot when you have to add so much sexual graphic imagery in, right? Yeah, it's designed for a purpose, and we know the purpose is. And then I'll address the women say, "I don't use it to get off. No, I just watch porn because it's entertaining, and I like to see pizza guys." Like, no, you do use it to get off. Please do not even, I'm not that dumb. You can't snow me like that. Please. I want to say something really quick 'cause when these women came at me, I hadn't seen stuff, unfortunately. Without going too much into detail, you and I both got down a wormhole we didn't want to go on, and I saw some stuff that I'm sure is in that book. I had to read through a post that has permanently imprinted on my brain in a bad way, and I know that it's similar to a lot of the erotica stuff. And to be honest, there's no way to read that graphic of descriptions without one, being turned on, or two, being disturbed by it. Well, until you get desensitized to it too, where you're not disturbed by it, you know what I'm saying? But, and the thing about it is, it's like, it's varying degrees, sure. Yeah, you have at the bottom level the completely Harlequin, you know, some whatever, the stuff that is the dark stuff that is not, there's, yeah, yes, I know there's a plot. I know that there are, like, but that's not the draw of it. We know what it is. It is literally getting off material. That's what it's designed for, okay?

John: At the other end, you have Nora Roberts, you have romance novels, and whatnot. Yes, those do have more of a storyline and a thing like that, but as much as it pains me to even attack those, I do have to, if I'm being intellectually honest, which I intend to do on this podcast. I have to say that being obsessed with the story of other people's romance and fantasizing, even about the romance, not even the sexual part of it, is also destructive because it makes you dissatisfied with your own life, your real life, right? The things that you're actually living. And it is still living in the fantasy world, and it is something that you can become addicted to. I mean, I don't even see the issue with an occasional romance novel and things like that. I think that it's all about the intention and the addiction. Even some people in the comments were talking about how they use it to escape reality from men that don't treat them the way that they want to be treated. And I said, if you want to change your actual relationship, if you want to try to make the man that you're actually with in real life into the man in these books, read The Empowered Wife. There's a book for you. There you go. And I think they don't realize genuinely that by reading and fantasizing about a relationship that's better than yours or a man that's better than yours is a one-way road to resentment to the man that you have. They don't understand that.

Nicole: Right, and I get that they think that they're like, "Oh well, this makes me feel good. Yeah, I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does make you feel good, imagining a man who actually knows how to treat a woman." But you will never have that unless you do things that change your actual relationship. You'll have to constantly read more romance novels, you'll have to constantly escape your reality to feel those feelings, to have that dopamine. And that's what I was trying to say in that short video. Like, if you have this relationship, and even if you don't, you can create that relationship. And you can get the dopamine, the feel-good feelings, whatever it is, the joy, from your actual partner. And that should mean a lot to these women. Like, they should care more about connecting with their husband in a way where they wouldn't need to read any more books, right? About anything, or watch any more movies or TV or whatever, because they enjoy the life that they're living.

John: Exactly, yeah. And the thing about that is, you can create your own romance novel. It is possible. And yes, I do have empathy for the women that have men that don't get this. Have them watch our podcast. But, like you said, read The Empowered Wife. I think that's a great suggestion. But also, have a conversation. Talk about the needs. See, when your needs are fulfilled in one way that's not the ideal way, that's at a lower level, it suppresses the urgency of getting those needs filled, so they never get filled in the more complete and better way. And this happens with a lot of things in life. Like, we will accept when we have needs, they must be fulfilled, and sometimes we choose to fulfill them in lesser ways than higher ways. And so, as long as you continue to fulfill something in a lesser way, you won't have the urgency to fulfill it in a higher way. It's not permanent with a book. And the thing is, yes, you can create your own romance. And you can also create, you can roleplay. Like, you can create your own erotic fiction in the sense that you can, if you want to be an alien from Mars or whatever, you can do that. Talk to your partner. You can wear outfits and dress. And I know that some people say, "Well, that's why I read the books, and then I do that." It's like, but you can just do that. You don't have to explore someone else's. Well, you're not including your partner, really. Like, he's not actively included in that. You're including him because he's there, but he doesn't know that you're imagining him as a blue alien guy. If you tell him, granted, these things have to be like actual desires. I again think blue alien is because you've gone down this wormhole for a while. But if you actually talk to your partner about what you want, like, let's say, the maid thing, that's like a generic one, okay? If you tell him about that, you guys can involve him. I highly doubt he's going to be like, "No."

Nicole: Right. And the thing about it too is, I would say this too, is about the relationship part of it and the empathy for the women that are in difficult situations where the man is not very caring, not romantic, and so they're trying to get that from somewhere else. I understand it. However, what I would also say though is that, look, how many hours a week do you spend reading these things? Is it eight hours? Is it 10 hours? Is it more than that? Some is more than that. If you took all of those hours and instead you devoted those hours to your relationship, to, in some way, maybe helping your man, you know, like taking care of him, doing stuff, romantic stuff for him, doing like investing in talking and learning and reading about your relationship, and working on yourself, would you not have a better outcome? You see what I'm saying? It's like you're wasting these hours in order to, and again, there's nothing wrong with entertainment. There's nothing wrong. You don't have to be working or working on yourself all the time. But I'm saying that a lot of women devote a large number of hours to a fantasy world that, instead of their real life that they're escaping from it, when they, if they took those same hours and they put it into making their real life like the fantasy life, they would have a lot more success.

John: And that's what I mean. I think that looks a little bit different than what you're describing, and I'll explain. Because I think some women will hear that and they'll just tune everything out. But I think what you're trying to say is that, you know, in a woman term, you need to talk to your husband about the resentment that you have. Because there's no way you can tell me you don't resent him in some way if you're escaping the reality of him. You need to have a conversation with him. You need to be respectful in that conversation, even if he's disrespectful to you. You need to say, "Hey, okay, we'll continue this conversation another time until you can talk to me in a respectful way." But you also need to be respectful.

Nicole: Right, yeah. And I get if you have resentment, it's probably not going to look like that, or it's going to be hard to look like that. But you need to be respectful. You need to maintain respect. You need to get all of those things out on the table. You need to talk to him about them. Yeah, even if he doesn't really want to listen to it, you speak your peace and allow him to process. Do what you need. And then, like you said, instead of reading, the time you would read a book, figure out what you want to try new in the bedroom and like plan it and talk to him about it.

John: Figure out something like that, or, you know, show him that you care about him by writing him a nice note. Like, do the things that you've already read about, right? That women do to the men that they like because, yeah, they might start from friends to enemies to friends or lovers, whatever. Which that's a whole other thing that I don't even know if we'll have time for that. But they do treat each other in those books very well. That's why they're so in love. That's why it's a romance novel. And I know you read enough to know what you can do towards a man that you really love and care about and admire. And again, I'll go back to when we did the surrendered wife podcast episode. Yeah, you married him for a reason. And I understand that your relationship might have taken some turns, and now you read your book, and he goes off into his office, and then you guys come together, and it's like, meh. Because yeah, you're investing in other places. But like you said, you can change that. You don't have to stay on this path. You don't because deep down, there is, like you said, some need that's not really being met. It's temporarily and at a very low level being met, right? But if you put in the work, which I get it, can be overwhelming and it seems like a lot, and that can be scary, but it is worth it. It is worth it. And you have to clean all the shit out from under the rug that you've swept under there and read books instead and dreaming about this life that you want to have. You have to try to make that your reality, and you will be so happy you did, and your husband will be so happy you did, right?

Nicole: And, you know, there's a lot of people that are going to say, and they have said it, "Oh, you're making too much of a big deal out of nothing. It's not a big deal. It's not even a big part of my life. I don't even like, you're just making a big thing out of nothing. Who cares?" The answer that I would say to that is that you think that it's you because you don't know what your life could be, what your relationship could be. But they should, they read the romance novels, right? Like, that's my thing, right? You're reading it because it's so appealing, but you can have that life. Like, I think too, what made people upset or not understand is that I get that they can't like peer into our lives and they can't be in my body and feel the things that I feel, right? But I'm telling you, you can have the relationships that are in the romance novel, but you have to put in the work, and your husband does too, right? But you can have it, yeah. And you can be the catalyst to make that a reality. To start trying to live like they say all the time, romanticize your life. That doesn't mean read a romance book to romanticize your life. It means make your life into a romance novel. Exactly. That's what we're trying to say. We're trying to help you live what you are escaping, right? Exactly. You're using this to escape your real life, but we're trying to help you make this your real life. That's what I just want to shake them and be like, this is not to shit on your books. Like, it's not like you're not even bad for reading these books. Again, it probably stems from all these other things that were outside your control, right? But you can have the life of these books. And granted, no, you can't have the life of a fairy prince and an alien sex lord or something. You can't have that. But if you get rid of that, you will start to appreciate and have gratitude for the life that you had and the life that you're building with the person that you love the most, right?

John: Exactly, yeah. And, you know, you can think of the same thing as like, you think it might not be affecting you, but man, I know that almost every woman would think if her guy was constantly looking at porn at other women, that in some way, it would diminish his attraction for her. So, like, you can't, you can try and make these arguments around it and try to, you know, you're kidding yourself. You're not kidding us. We're not, we're not. You can try to say all the kind of stuff like, "I don't use it to get off," or, "I think about my husband when I'm reading the book," and it's like, that, you know, which I think women can mentally do that. I will say, I think that is possible for women to do. However, it is not the same level of actually doing it with your husband because it's not him. That's not his attributes. That's not how he acts or how he talks. And so, yes, you can imagine his body, right? Sure. But that's what if we reverse that, and a guy was imagining some other woman's, I'm not saying that it's okay. I'm just saying, I think women can actually mentally put their husband into the character and visualize him doing the things. But you are 100% right that it's still not really him because I'm sure he has different attributes than he does in real life.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, it'd just be weird to be like, "I well, I like the virtual you. I like the you that I make up in my head." Well, here's the thing too, if your husband is like the man in the books, even, right? Why aren't you just creating your own story over here together? Like, you don't need to read about it. Like, if he is like the guy in the book or you're imagining him in the book, like you would just go and do the things with your husband because he's like the guy in the book, you know what I mean? Like, it just still doesn't fully connect to me on a lot of the things that they're saying. And I get, like you said, that they're trying to justify it, and I get why they're trying to justify it, and they think we're judging them, and we're really not. We're just trying to show the logical side of it as people who don't use these things. And even at one point, you were like, "You can use, you know, some stuff if you need to, to do," and I was like, "I don't need to. I don't want to." And it's not like we were promoting that, but it's like we hadn't had the conversation, right? And really deeply thought it through. And it is a shortcut, right? Because even as a man, I could fall into that temptation and be like, "Oh yeah, this will make things more fun." But that's not a smart move, right? Because there's a tradeoff of that, right? It's like, you got to think this all the way through. And that's what I think most people just haven't. They treat this lightly. They're like, "It's not a big deal. These people are crazy. Or what are they talking about, romance? But like, who cares if someone reads the book? Like, stupid. Stop being controlling an idiot," right? I get it. But if you actually deeply think through this and realize what the implications are and what's happening psychologically to yourself and to your relationship, you realize it's not so innocent. It is not.

John: And we were talking about this before. We didn't mention this, but you can always just evaluate something by asking, "Does this bring us closer or further? Does it increase intimacy or decrease intimacy?" Right? And maybe it's new, right? But if you look at it and say, "Alright, if I read an erotic fantasy novel about some other people having sex, does that increase intimacy with my partner?" Uh, I don't like you say, "Oh, we have more sex," but yeah, but couldn't you just have more sex? Like, does the thing that you're doing increase or decrease intimacy? And if you're really honest with yourself, you'd have to say, "Okay, well, that might decrease intimacy." Right? So that's all we're saying. You pick things, even just taking the time because it's your happy time, right? Like, you're choosing to do Happy Time stuff when you could be doing Happy Time stuff with your partner, so that's not increasing intimacy. It's also a trust factor as well. It's like, "Oh, well, he knows I read that. He knows." Yeah, but does he know the thoughts that are in your head? And if he did know the thoughts that were in your head, would that increase or decrease intimacy? So just because he doesn't know them doesn't mean that it doesn't decrease intimacy because it did for you, and you didn't realize it. And you are in some way hiding something. You see what I'm saying? So again, no one's perfect, right? But it's just, look, and you can do it.

Nicole: The thing I was saying before too is that, look, if you want to drink alcohol, like, we don't drink alcohol anymore, that's fine. I don't have any problem. I'm not going to judge you. If you want to drink alcohol, go ahead, drink alcohol, it's fine, right? But do not come to me and tell me that alcohol is good for you. Just don't do that. Like, I'm not going to judge you. You want to do it, don't say it's healthy. Yeah, it's the same thing here. It's like, if you want to read the books, you're an adult, you can choose what. I'm not trying to control you, trying to tell you what to do. However, don't tell me it's healthy. That's if you acknowledge and say, "Okay, maybe it's not the best thing. Maybe it's, you know, but I like it, and I'm going to do it." Okay, I can respect that. But what I can't respect is trying to gaslight me, trying to make excuses like some kind of a junkie about your addiction and not just coming to terms with it. If you just say, "Hey, yeah, it is something that I'm addicted to. I'm struggling with, or maybe I shouldn't do it, but I like to do it, and I'm going to keep doing it." Hey, I had a guy that I was doing a call with, and he was like, and I was like, "I can help you quit smoking." And he was like, "Nah, he's like, 'It's not good for me. It's probably going to kill me, but I don't care. I like it anyway, and I'm going to do it. I don't want any help.'" I was like, "Okay, fine. I respect you. That's cool. Like, as long as you're not trying to tell me it's good for you."

John: You know, so that's all about that. But yeah, I will say, if you made it this far and you are a book lover, yeah, props to you. But I do want to end it, I guess, on something that I just thought about that could be helpful while you're transitioning, right?

Nicole: Yeah, with both people, men and women.

John: Sure, yeah. Make your own stories with your actual husband and how he is, and even if you have to accentuate a little bit, like maybe make him more affectionate or something like that, I don't see the problem in that, right? As long as you're outside of when you're writing, you guys are working towards that relationship, and you're doing your part to bring out the more affectionate part of him, right? Write your own stories about your actual life, and it can be things that you want to try in the bedroom and share it with him. He will probably like it. And if he's struggling with videos, make your own videos. Make your own stuff, and that way, you're watching your own partner, and you're getting turned on by your own partner, your actual partner. You're wiring the brain the right way.

Nicole: Right, right. And try not to make it too fanatical. Like, I mean, again, because I think a lot of people love the fairy and the fantasy, like castle and sort of stories, and I get that. But if you go too much even into that, you're never going to grow and be a fairy, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm not saying you couldn't occasionally, right, that you and your husband are, he's a fairy lord, and you're whatever, but don't do it consistently where now you will become upset or have some sort of feelings about your normal everyday life. Like, this is about romanticizing your life. So if you want to write a story about, like, you and your husband go to Hawaii, and you have this crazy jungle experience in the woods, sure, do that. Maybe you might even get to do that one day. Who knows? But it's like, start making your own stuff rather than reading about everybody else's because it will benefit your relationship. If you feel like you still need the literature to some degree while you're trying to wean off of it, do that.

John: Right, yeah, or with the videos, right? If your husband has a porn addiction, you guys make videos that are just for you guys, and he can watch those. But that's the only thing.

Nicole: Yeah, right. So it's like, make it about your actual life because the biggest thief of joy is comparison.

John: Exactly, exactly. And including comparing your life to a fairy lord or aliens coming to have sex with you, right? Like, it's still a comparison. When you appreciate what you have and really look at what you have, and you have gratitude for that, and you feel those happy feelings from that, it will benefit your real life way better than any escape you could do. And no one is immune from this, no one is immune from the dissatisfaction that you will have through comparison. No one's immune. And fiction can be anything, and that's why it can be dangerous because it doesn't have bounds. Real people have bounds. Just like we've, how many times have women made the argument about porn and what, and what's the big argument? That's not realistic. That's not how women really are. That's not how they respond to sex like that. Like, so, I agree with that argument, you know. You just have to apply it in both directions because it is true. It's not, you know. And again, like, just kind of wrapping it up, but what is our motive here? Like, we're not religious. If you want to have a genuinely deep, intimate, connected, monogamous relationship, truly monogamous, listen to what we're saying. If you guys both want to, if he's okay with you reading the books, and he's watching porn, that's on you guys. Like you said, like, that's your guys' choice. But there is a difference between a...

John: Relationship like we're describing, and that even that relationship because there is your energy going different ways. Yeah, I'm not saying one's right or wrong. For me, I want to be in a truly monogamous relationship where my husband is invested 100% in me, and I'm invested 100% in him. So, this logically is the way to do it. But if you guys live a different sort of way, that's your prerogative. But if people want what we have and what I just explained, this will get you there. And you will live your life like the romance novels, like whatever novel that you're like, "Wow, this is an amazing life, this is amazing love, this is amazing everything." Like, you can have that, but you have to also help create that.

Nicole: Exactly. I just thought of another one. Alright, well, this one probably has to be the last one.

John: Yeah, I think so. You know, ladies, do you get upset, right, when your man checks out another woman? When he just looks at another woman, right? Some people will be like, "No," but I feel like most women, yeah, most women get upset about that. But somehow, you think that reading extremely sexual stuff about another man is not the same; it's not worse. Like, their thing is that it's not a real person, but to me, that's not a really good excuse when you're talking about women because women can mentally view things in their head just as well as if it was a video, and some of the women even admitted to that. So, you can't act like it's just a book when mentally, as women, it plays out like a movie in our head, and it's a movie that we can dictate in any way that we want.

Nicole: Right, exactly. Yeah, and so you're right that like, you can't act like, well, one's a real person and one's not. And to be honest, one last little thing is, I don't think abuse in any form, in porn or in books, is acceptable. Like, it should not be normalized; it should not be made to be okay. It is abuse. Like, I don't care if you want to be abused only in a sexual instance, that is not okay. Like, no one would be like, abuse is ever okay. No, no. And you're normalizing and desensitizing yourself from it, which is not a good thing to do. Right, and there's a difference between the actual therapeutic learning about a thing and being entertained by a thing. Right, and that I think that's the key difference.

John: Well, that's like the key between reading a book for therapy or actually going to therapy. Like, one's entertainment and one is actual help. I think we covered everything. I was just looking at your list.

Nicole: Yeah, we did good. I thought it was going to be like a multi-episode thing. So, good job. Yeah, so, we'll now see if the hatred amps up to even the next level. But look, we explained it as best. I don't know how else you can do it. We're not coming from a bad place. We never are. We're not trying to. And we're just two people. If you don't like this, scroll by, scroll on by. Because we're not hurting anybody either. Like, you are free to make your own decision, just like if I scrolled past a video that was like, porn is actually healthy in your relationship, I'd be like, "Hm, I don't really agree with that." But I'm not going to argue with this person in the comments. Right, like, what is that going to do? There's actually plenty of people on social media that are arguing that porn is not healthy at all.

John: Oh, I see. Yeah, you know. But I'm saying, even if I came across somebody that was saying the opposite, like, they're one person, and if you logically think about it, you know that that's not true. And the thing is, women that are mad at us might be like, "Logically, this doesn't make sense." Right, but it does logically make sense. There's one other thing we had to address, which is that it is porn, right? It is. There's not a question about it. That was the actual title that I had. "Are books porn?" Because there are a lot of women in the comments that were like, "It's not porn. It's not the same thing. It's not even close to the same thing." The description, "It's more real than real." Yeah, it's not people, but you are imagining people in your head doing these things. Don't tell me you're not. Don't tell me you can read "his throbbing" and think about an egg. Right, like, that's no. If I told you, "Don't think about an elephant," you're thinking of an elephant. So, don't tell me if you're reading about a throbbing hard that you're not thinking about a throbbing hard. And if your child was reading it, would you not call it porn then? You would, right? You would say, "Hey, it's not appropriate." Why is it not appropriate? "It's not real people." Right, see, so the argument doesn't work. It doesn't work for a nine-year-old; it doesn't work for you. So, that's what I'm saying. It's like, just call it what it is. Okay, and yeah, maybe romance novels aren't porn, maybe, but when I said it in the first video, I was saying it's the equivalent because the sex and the visual element to a man, the romantic and mental element to a woman, that's why I equated those two things.

Nicole: Well, the romance novels are more of like a disconnect and a resentment in the relationship rather than like the sexual part, but it's still detrimental, like you said, because you're not living what you're fantasizing about, and so that's going to cause resentment. But yeah, but let's not try and pretend like it's not porn. You don't think it's cheating. Seen that's fine. I give you an example. It is a version of that, is for sexual gratification. I've seen some stuff written in written form that will burn your eyes out. That's what I was talking about earlier, much worse than anything I've ever seen in video format, much worse, much more disturbing, much worse. Yeah, and so please do not tell me it's not porn. Right, like, I'm not dumb. Like, it is. There's not a, you know, yeah, we don't even need to go more into that.

John: Mic drop on that. You should have dropped the mic. But what is our thing for the week? I mean, do we don't jinx us by saying like if it's a whole year then knock on some wood.

Nicole: But yeah, I don't think we've been dealing with a whole bunch of other stuff, and you've been working a lot.

John: So, yeah, like, I'm not saying that's the reason we don't have any tea for you guys, but yeah.

Nicole: But I mean, we are figuring out a lot of stuff, and we are getting better and progressing and working on it together. So, yeah.

John: And yeah, becoming more self-aware.

Nicole: And yeah, having a lot more empathy for each other and, you know, and understanding each other better. And I think that that helps. Not that we'll make some mistakes in the future.

John: I'm sure, but it's, you know, I always feel like the mistakes that we make... I've been in other relationships where the mistakes were just mistakes. They weren't growing, learning experiences. I feel like every mistake we've ever made, I have grown, learning, and it has been something I've looked back and said that was actually a good thing, right? So because we're better because of it.

Nicole: I agree.

John: All right, well, that's it for this episode. If you want to send us your hate mail, you want to write us a novel of how much you hate this episode, you can email us at no one reads this at no no at better than perfect. We are always open to other people's opinion, but it has to be more than "you guys are stupid, this is dumb." If you want to come on the podcast, if you're in San Diego, if you're like, "No, they don't understand this topic," we will have you on here, and we'll discuss it with you, you know.

Nicole: Yeah, you just have to be respectful. That's all we ask. But yeah, I mean, we're open to opinions and to listen. We're not close-minded like people think we are. Come up, and we'll listen to it, right? And we're always able to change our minds on things.

John: Yeah, because we know that things are always changing, and you're always getting new information. But I think we logically dug this one deep enough where it would be kind of hard to change our mind, but we're always open to hearing other perspectives.

Nicole: Yeah, and if you want some help, if you, you know, if you want some coaching, I mean, I guess if you want some help and you're a woman, you know, you can email us and see if Nicole can help you out. And if you're a couple, you want some help, we can both help you out. So yeah, but yeah, just email us at better than perfect podcast at gmail.com. And don't forget to leave those... you banana fingers is still the wiener, so wow, still up there on the last review on Apple.

John: So it is what it is, like, yeah, there's such an opportunity here to, you know, to have your... to just be famous, you know.

Nicole: So famous. Okay, well, we'll see you guys next week.

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