Nicole [00:00:00]: The root desire of most women is a strong, dominant man, because that is what the core is. That all these smut novel books as well, too. All of these characters that these men are, are these strong, dominant men. And when you feel like you have to feel that strong dominance to an extreme, where they have to literally hurt you in order for you to feel that contrast, that's of problems beyond the.

John [00:00:29]: Perfect, we discover through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay.

John [00:00:40]: Through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:54]: That's right.

John [00:00:54]: And we've got an exciting topic, a part two kind of, you know, revisited. I guess we would call it the. The novel. Yes. There you go. Just say it. Just smut novel. We're talking about this because I think it's become kind of a popular topic lately. Right. Like, there is.

Nicole [00:01:15]: Yeah. Everybody hated us when we first talked about it, but now other people are kind of talking.

John [00:01:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:21]: About what we talked about in the same way. So we thought we would circle back.

John [00:01:27]: Yeah. Because it's sort of reached, I guess, a new height of depravity that brought it to more people's attention. Now, I think that we also have.

Nicole [00:01:36]: Another email that you should probably read that we got a while back on.

John [00:01:39]: This as well, too. Yeah, we'll read that in this episode.

Nicole [00:01:42]: We'll add that in there.

John [00:01:43]: Yeah, that's a good.

Nicole [00:01:44]: Because, you know, it. The email is from a man as well, too. So it's kind of like the man's perspective on it.

John [00:01:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:01:51]: Which we didn't have, I think, necessarily last time. And it's a complicated thing because it's so accepted.

John [00:02:01]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:02]: In society, really. That it makes it tricky.

John [00:02:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:08]: Because then it makes sense.

John [00:02:11]: It's promoted. It's more than accepted.

Nicole [00:02:13]: And then even the guys will kind of defend it, be fine with it.

John [00:02:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:16]: Until it becomes a problem.

John [00:02:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:19]: So, yeah. I mean, there's a lot. We kind of talked about this.

John [00:02:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:26]: In the car the other day that we probably shouldn't have, because now we're like, what?

John [00:02:29]: What did we.

Nicole [00:02:31]: Points we had. But I think at one point you were talking about when we discussed it, that you thought the books were worse than corn. I'm going to say corn.

John [00:02:46]: Yeah. Okay. We'll stick with.

Nicole [00:02:48]: I'm gonna say corn.

John [00:02:49]: Okay, fine. We'll say corn.

Nicole [00:02:51]: That the books were worse than corn. And then I, you know, was like, well, corn. Is like this, this and this. And that is true. Like, I do think corn in a way is more damaging because it is more human. Not like it involves actual humans and like kinks and things like that. That can go to the extreme and then people try to act them out on real people.

John [00:03:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:15]: But I do think the books are worse in the sense that they are publicized and promoted and it's fine. And it's basically written corn.

John [00:03:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:30]: For women.

John [00:03:31]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:32]: That they're proud to talk about reading 100 of them in a year.

John [00:03:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:37]: Whereas like, if a man came on here and was like, I watched 100 pornos this year, where's my, where's my award?

John [00:03:44]: You mean Cornos?

Nicole [00:03:47]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:03:50]: Then we would be like, huh.

Nicole [00:03:54]: Like only a hundred. Well, I mean, no, but the other issue is that even I feel like if people became aware of like what the books really are and like had to accept that.

John [00:04:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:12]: That it would still be similar to corn in the sense that now people would just do it behind closed doors.

John [00:04:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:20]: Sort of thing.

John [00:04:21]: Which, which was what I think it was back in the day. The Harlequin romance novels or whatever. And then you have the Kindle where you can just read it anywhere. And then you have TikTok. And then now it's being promoted as we've kind of gotten so far down that extreme. And, and I think like, I guess what we, we watch a YouTube video where. What was her name? Shoe on Head or something like that.

Nicole [00:04:50]: I think, I don't know in the.

John [00:04:52]: Description, but she was talking about this. She called it the, The Female Gooner epidemic and which I didn't even know.

Nicole [00:04:59]: What a Gooner was.

John [00:05:01]: If. Yeah, we'll, we'll save the. That's something to Google for. For the viewer.

Nicole [00:05:06]: Or Urban Dictionary.

John [00:05:08]: Exactly. But, but, but, yeah, so so basically, I mean, she was talking about. And this is what really I think got people's attention was one of the best selling books on Amazon was called, what's it, Minotaur Milkmaid or something like that.

Nicole [00:05:23]: Yeah, something like that.

John [00:05:25]: And without getting too graphic into the details of the book, the book is essentially about some young girl who has.

Nicole [00:05:34]: She's down on her luck. She needs to make some money.

John [00:05:37]: Yeah. She's got.

Nicole [00:05:37]: She can only make money by milking Minotaurs.

John [00:05:42]: Yeah. On this fall.

Nicole [00:05:43]: But not how you think she would.

John [00:05:45]: However you think like all the ways.

Nicole [00:05:48]: How you think she would.

John [00:05:49]: Yeah, yeah, all the ways. And. Yeah. And so it's like pretty extreme and. But it's got so many reviews on Amazon. It's one of the best selling books all these women are promoting. Oh, it's such a great book. And it's like, okay, this is where we have to draw the line and be like, look, this is not, it's not. Okay, it's not. It's just like you're. Now you're talking bestiality. Like it's extreme levels of perversion at this point, but it's just being accepted as just, okay, normal, even promoted. And that's a problem, right? And so I think, and we talked about the last episode that we talked about this, but like, why is this such a problem? Right? There's a lot of reasons why a lot of people don't really consider, you know, one of the biggest reasons why I think that it's a problem is because a lot of these, these books, they're promoting things like bestiality, but also.

John [00:06:49]: Because it is bestiality.

Nicole [00:06:50]: Like, let's not promoting it. I think they're like normalizing this sort of fantasy of beastiality. Like, I don't think they're promoting it because it's never like an actual just animal. It's like an animal man. I'm not, I'm not justifying it, but I'm saying I, I wouldn't say it's promoting it because like, if it was just a woman and a straight up cow, then yes, but like they're trying to like morph a man into this other thing that's like.

John [00:07:21]: But the description of the, of the cow face was like a cow face, so.

Nicole [00:07:26]: Yeah, but it's kind of. But then I think it had a human body, didn't it? Like, it's a minotaur somewhat.

John [00:07:30]: It had hooves. So it's. I mean, yes, I get what you're saying, but also it's a blurry line that's getting more blurry, you know what I'm saying? It's, it's as, as close to bestiality. It is bestiality. I'm not like. It is. It is what it is. That is bestiality.

Nicole [00:07:48]: I mean, it is, right? It's like pretty crazy. I will say though, the only thing is that I feel like women are less likely to act on those sort of things. But I agree that it is still harmful to them, whether they know it or not, that their brain is getting off to that.

John [00:08:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:08:09]: Well, you know what I mean? Like, that's the most harmful thing because I don't think women are going to go around banging cows.

John [00:08:15]: No, no, but, but what they will do and what it does prime the sexual nature for is the other topics which are things like degrading, you know, abuse, slavery. Right. All kinds of stuff like torture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grapes. Right? Yeah, yeah. Like all of these things that. These are not healthy ways to train your psychology. Right. And so, and one of the things that I think is super important to understand about human sexuality and we talked about this a little bit on the last episode, but since then we have some neuro. Neuro scientists that have weighed in on it as well. So it's not just us making up stuff, but is that your, your, your, your sexual response is trained on what you orgasm to? And so if you are reading material about space aliens with tentacle ding dongs or whatever and minotaur and people being abused and hurt physically in these acts and that's what you're getting off to. You're rewiring your sexual response system.

John [00:09:29]: To respond to that and not to normal stimulus.

Nicole [00:09:34]: Right. Just like you're training your brain.

John [00:09:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:36]: Just in a bad way.

John [00:09:37]: Exactly. The whole corn issue is that men are rewiring their brain to like this extreme stimulus. Right. Of these gigantic proportions and extreme type of things which is like a hyper sexualized, like this is. This doesn't exist in the natural world.

Nicole [00:09:58]: Right.

John [00:09:58]: In that sense. Right. And so it's the same exact thing. And so there's a lot of repercussions to that. And I think also if you're thinking that this just is just something that you just, just is a sexual component, that your psychology can be just contained within your sexuality, that you're just perverted when it comes to sexuality, but it doesn't leak into the rest of your life. That just seems insane.

Nicole [00:10:20]: Yeah.

John [00:10:21]: There's no way that you're like, oh, I, I get off to people being tortured or whatever and like extreme abuse and you know, slavery, even like situations where people are in, you know, being abused and, and defiled, that I'm just a normal. It doesn't affect me in my normal human life. Like it doesn't make any sense at all.

Nicole [00:10:42]: Well, they're compartmentalizing. But the thing is like I don't want to shame people for these things because that doesn't do anything.

John [00:10:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:50]: But people need to realize that they need to be honest and realize it has gotten this far and it has gotten this bad.

John [00:10:56]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:10:58]: Not shamefully, but they need to realize and they need to resensitize themselves to the things that they actually have in their life. Their actual husband or you know, like actual sexual Encounters that they're gonna have.

John [00:11:15]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:16]: And they can do that. You're not too far gone if you've gone, you know, down the deep end. But you have to cut it off and stop going down that path.

John [00:11:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:27]: And resensitize yourself.

John [00:11:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:29]: To the things that you, like, actually have in life. And you will want those things and you won't be turned on by these extreme things that you've gotten yourself, you know, sucked down that wormhole.

John [00:11:46]: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:11:49]: Because I don't want people to feel like they're too far gone. Because a lot of people, honestly, at this point, a lot of people read smut novels.

John [00:11:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:56]: And a lot of people are at the too far gone level we're talking about. But you're not too far gone. You just have to realize that you got to. You're reading 100 smut novels in, like, 12 months.

John [00:12:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:09]: And you are feeding an addiction.

John [00:12:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:13]: Like this is an addiction. And again, your. Your orgasm or your sexual pleasure or whatever you're getting from reading those books is fueling this addiction.

John [00:12:24]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:12:25]: It's. You're putting all of that towards a book rather than your husband or your actual sex life or like, trying something new with your partner that is consensual, like that you guys are both into or things like that. Instead of putting that energy where you should be putting it, which are those places you're reading hundreds of books that are. Are essentially corn.

John [00:12:50]: Yeah. And. And it's cheating.

John [00:12:54]: It's cheating. It's emotionally cheating. It's sexually cheating. And just like. I mean, because here. Here's my justification. If you got a guy that's watching corn all the time.

Nicole [00:13:05]: Yeah.

John [00:13:06]: Do you feel like he's cheating in some way? I mean, not to the like, but in some way. Is that not. Is not. Is that not some level of, like, unfaithfulness?

Nicole [00:13:17]: I guess that's my biggest thing is the hypocriticalness of it, is that women have outright said that they will shame men for the extreme corn that they watch. And some of it is very, very bad, which they should go to jail if they're reading or watching stuff that bad.

John [00:13:34]: For sure.

Nicole [00:13:34]: But women are not allowing themselves to be viewed for the reality of what they're doing. Right.

John [00:13:42]: Because they're saying, oh, it's just a reading. Yes. But it's like, many cases worse if.

Nicole [00:13:48]: You'Re doing actions though to these words.

John [00:13:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:52]: Then it's the same as him doing the actions to the videos and books are the equivalent to videos for men. Women like words, they like the fantasy. They like thinking in their mind of what the thing is.

John [00:14:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:09]: Men need the visual aspect.

John [00:14:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:11]: And I'm not saying that women don't want visual or men don't want words.

John [00:14:15]: It's just a primary mingles. Right. It's the primary.

Nicole [00:14:18]: Right.

John [00:14:18]: Channel.

Nicole [00:14:19]: And so for women to be hypocritical about what they're reading.

John [00:14:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:25]: When they judge men very harshly for what they're watching.

John [00:14:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:31]: I have a problem with that.

John [00:14:33]: And, and it has to be. It's. You have to face it. It is an addiction. Because when you're reading hundreds of books in a year of just smut novels. Yeah. Then that's an addiction. When that's all you're doing, when you can't put it down, when that's your hobby is, you know, that's. That's like if a guy was like, oh, yeah, my hobby is I jerk off. That's what my hobby is. Like, really? You're a real interesting dude. Okay, that's. Wow. But it's like, hey, on TikTok, it's like, look, this is what my hobby is.

Nicole [00:15:05]: Right?

John [00:15:06]: It's like, you know, I don't like, you know. But, but, but the problem is because it's become so normalized. And then also I think, because men don't realize what a problem this is because they think they're getting a good deal out of this because, oh, my wife likes to have sex a lot more. She's like, that's. I love these books.

Nicole [00:15:22]: And it's like she's pretending you're a minotaur that she's milking. That's why she wants to have sex with you, sir.

John [00:15:30]: Right. So you're. So it's actually, you're just being used as an object. Right? Women sometimes complain about being objectified. Right. But you're just literally being used as an object. You're just being used as an object to get out her sexual frustration that has been created by the fantasy that she read that cannot be fulfilled in life. So you're a substitute, a mediocre substitute for what? She really wants that. Now, how does it taste? You see what I'm saying? Because that's the actual truth of it. So it's like, yeah, you can accept that, right. And you can be like, oh, well, at least I'm getting mine out of it. But, you know, there's a trade off to this, right? And also, if someone is willing to emotionally cheat on you or fantasy cheat on you, because that's what These things are. Then how far is that from physically happening? Right. I'm not saying that it guarantees it, but you're walking down that path because just like a junkie needs to get a better and better high. Where does. You know you can only write so much perverted shit in a book. At some point you're trying to act that out in physical reality. Which actually there was some convention, you know, romance novel convention. And they, these women were groping all these guys that like groping this guy and yeah. Without his permission, harassing him and grabbing him his dick and all kinds of stuff that was like, you know, some pretty extreme. I mean there was a ton of women that were doing this. So it wasn't just like one woman. That was a crazy woman. It's like when you, when you feed into anything to that degree, you know, you keep on going down to levels of depravity and especially when you normalize it and then you don't make it to be something that is shame. I'm not saying you should shame the people, but it's a shameful thing. You know, it's.

Nicole [00:17:21]: It's not something we should be normalizing. Just like we're not normalizing corn.

John [00:17:26]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:27]: We're not. We shouldn't be normalizing erotica written corn, basically.

John [00:17:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:34]: Because even the girl in the video we watched was like, you guys can't really say that you read the book for the story. That's like saying you watch corn for the plot. Like that's not how it is. And a lot of the.

Nicole [00:17:55]: Reviews talk specifically about the different shaped ding dongs. Yeah. And I'm like, how do you even get to a point where the shape of a, a penis is not enough for you? Like you want it to be so. And what kind of shape are we talking about here? And like, like why is that where we're going with this? But I, I saw somewhere else that women.

Nicole [00:18:28]: Like are more likely to cheat.

Nicole [00:18:32]: When they don't have like the spontaneity or like mystery of the sexual encounter.

John [00:18:40]: Sure. Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:41]: And so that made me think about them wanting the, the novelty of not right of like the, of the penis looking different. But I'm like, how far have you gone down this spiral if you're now searching for penises that are not penis shape and do like Go Go Gadget penis. Like they do these things that a normal penis will never be able to do.

John [00:19:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:07]: Not even a sex toy would probably do the things that they're talking. I don't know what shape they're looking for. Because I've never read any of these, but it just made me think of like, that is literally all they wrote in some of the reviews is like, why they were looking for a book that that's what they were going after. Because there are a lot of ones now that are animals or aliens or.

Nicole [00:19:33]: I don't know, like some other things that you just wouldn't even think.

John [00:19:37]: Yeah. I mean, at least when it was 50 shades of gray. Right? Like, and I read that.

Nicole [00:19:41]: That's.

John [00:19:41]: So that book was fairly tame even. It wasn't. I read that book. It's like, okay, so he was like this dominant billionaire guy, and, you know, he did a little bit BDSM stuff, but it wasn't. But that was.

Nicole [00:19:51]: But that's like the entry level now. Yeah, that's what get into that.

John [00:19:54]: That's what I'm saying.

Nicole [00:19:55]: You get further down.

John [00:19:56]: We've gotten so far from that that that wasn't healthy. Right. But this is so far from healthy.

Nicole [00:20:02]: Gateway drug.

John [00:20:03]: Yeah. Yeah. It's just become, it's become this. And not enough people have talked about this and, and actually made this. Like it's a problem. Like, you're psychologically damaging yourself and your future relationships because you're going to be unfulfilled. It's just like the same thing I tell guys all the time is it's like, okay, if you're constantly looking at corn or other women or whatever, then you're ruining your own sexual experience with your wife or the woman that you're with because it's not going to feel as good.

Nicole [00:20:33]: Right.

John [00:20:33]: It's not going to be as exciting.

Nicole [00:20:34]: Yeah.

John [00:20:35]: And so, but if you deprive yourself from that, if, you know, when you're at the gym and you see the whatchamacallit up the ass crack yoga pants, and you're just like, look away. You're doing it for your own good.

Nicole [00:20:46]: Away from the yoga.

John [00:20:47]: Right. You're doing it for your own good because you're, you're, you're, you're, you're resensitizing yourself. You're, you're, you're preventing yourself from having all this sexual stimulus that you're constantly bombarded with so that you can have better sexual experiences in your life.

Nicole [00:21:05]: Right.

John [00:21:06]: You know, and that's, it's a smart move to do. Right. So but doing the opposite is a very dumb move because it's going to make you unsatisfied with everything.

Nicole [00:21:16]: Right.

John [00:21:16]: And it's going to ruin your relationships because at some point, your partner's going to know that you're not happy with them.

Nicole [00:21:23]: Right.

John [00:21:23]: That you're not satisfied. They're going to feel inadequate. Right. And then what's going to happen from that, that point forward? Right now? Now you have. The only thing that's going to make you feel good is going to be something that you can't even have.

Nicole [00:21:34]: Right, exactly.

John [00:21:35]: Because it doesn't exist.

Nicole [00:21:37]: Right, right. Well, and another one of my big issues with this is children.

John [00:21:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:43]: So our daughter mentioned at one point that one of her friends was reading not the Minotaur book, but a book that has.

John [00:21:53]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:21:55]: And this was when she was in eighth grade.

John [00:21:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:58]: And that I have a problem with. I get that as a parent, you'd rather have your kid reading a book, I'm sure, than going out and doing certain things. But also, as a parent, if your kid is reading these books at that age, how long is it going to take them to get to Minotaur Milk made?

John [00:22:20]: Right? Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:21]: And they're. They're 13 years old.

John [00:22:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:24]: Like that. And then it's. If they go online, all these women are promoting these books. So they think it's fine.

John [00:22:32]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:22:33]: Yeah. They think it's normalized, it's a fun.

John [00:22:34]: Club to be part of.

Nicole [00:22:35]: Right, right. And so then they just go down this spiral even earlier. Like, if you're a woman and that's what you want to do, at the end of the day, that is your choice. But you will ruin your sex life with your husband or your part whoever. But that's still your choice. But children should not be exposed to these things in this way.

Nicole [00:23:01]: And have basically their sexual preferences changed and morphed by these books before they even really know what they want. And that they shouldn't even be focusing all of that energy on to that specifically.

John [00:23:18]: And it's fine. Like, if you're an adult woman and you're like, I don't see any problem. I like to like, be choked or slapped or whatever and be degraded. Fine, that's your choice. However, do you want your daughter to be slow to be choked and slapped and degraded? Probably not. Right. Like, you probably don't want her to marry some dude that's going to do that to her.

Nicole [00:23:39]: Right.

John [00:23:40]: So if so it's like, okay, you could justify yourself and that's fine. That's what you're into. Whatever. I mean, it is a perversion that you know. And I think that the thing about that is that. Well, we'll, we'll get into that topic. But. But you can. Sure have that perversion yourself. But do you want your, your child? Because.

Nicole [00:23:57]: Right.

John [00:23:57]: That's what's, you know, if you're promoting that, if you're okay with that being just out there. Because everything that's out there today is something that's accessible to children. There's no. Things are not accessible to children anymore. The Internet has made it so that, you know, eight year olds have access to everything. And even if you restrict your child.

Nicole [00:24:15]: From it, they go to school and the kids talk to them.

John [00:24:18]: The other kid is reading the book and talks them and shows them on their phone or whatever it is. I mean, the kids are even just have their phone in school, just playing games and watching whatever they want on their phone in school now. That's what the situation is. Yeah, but the other part of that is that about the sexual perversion of it is that there's a healthy sexuality around women wanting a dominant man to be more powerful than them and to maybe even overpower them. I'm not talking about in a, in a grape way, but I'm just saying like to, to feel a man's power and dominance, right, and, and his, his authority, like in a sexual way. I think that's a totally natural instinct that, that women have. The perversion of it is wanting to be slapped and choked and whatever and punch in the face and be called names and, and be degraded. That's not healthy. It's not a healthy psychology, right? Like a lot of people are like, oh no, that's just what my kink is. No, no, no. You have to understand. It's a perversion of a natural, a natural desire that you have. And the reason why I think that that desire comes out is because in the modern world, right, in the kind of world that we live in, a very feminist type of world, it's not okay for a man to be in charge. It's not okay for a man. There's this whole backlash against masculinity and men being masculine and being dominant, right? And so how do you get that if you're not getting that in the, in the, if you're, if it's not acceptable in the real world, right, Is that you have to then go into this fantasy world where you're getting an extreme version of that or even. Not even in a fantasy world in your actual sexual life, right? Because in your real life you're not getting that. So when you're in the bedroom now, you're, you're getting this in an extreme form. That's a bad form of that Right. Which comes from a low self esteem. And so we have to realize that these aren't healthy sexual dynamics and find the healthy version of it. But these books are pushing you further down that path and programming you to now, to now respond in that way.

Nicole [00:26:28]: Right. Well, and I do think again, like I said, you can be, you can reprogram yourself and you should, because even like not to go too in detail, but in our personal life you used to tell me like, oh, you can like do these things if you want on your own. And I'd be like, no, I'd rather us do things together.

John [00:26:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:46]: And I don't think you understood it fully until we were talking about this the other day and I explained it to you that like, I don't want to spread my sexual energy.

John [00:26:57]: Right.

Nicole [00:26:58]: To just focus on myself when I'd rather focus it on you and I. Yeah. And like, even though it's not that big of a deal, and it wouldn't get to that point, but what if it did? What if I started enjoying my alone time more than time with you? You know what I mean? And like that would cause a problem in our relationship. And that's what these books are doing, right? Like, these women are enjoying their reading their book time more than being with their husband.

John [00:27:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:27:24]: Or they're reading their book time and then the only penis they have is their husband's. And it doesn't go, go gadget and do stuff. But that'll do, I guess, you know, like that's, this is what's happening. And so if you again, like resensitize yourself to what you have and invest in your actual physical relationship with your husband or your partner, then you will become fulfilled from that. But it will take time because you essentially, it's like an addict. You have to go through some withdrawals. I'm sure there's going to be times where you're like, I want to read the Minotaur. But you have to not do it. Like, you have to kind of go cold turkey, right? And go kind of like, you know, the men that would go off to war if they saw an ankle, they'd be like, oh God, I just, I just had a moment there, you know what I mean? Like, but essentially that's what it is, is what you have to do. And you can do it, right. But first you have to realize, you know, the point that you've gotten to.

John [00:28:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:28:25]: And how you got there and how you have to get away from that point.

John [00:28:29]: Yeah, yeah. I forgot what I was, I was going to say there was something about.

John [00:28:35]: Like, I lost it. I should have wrote it down in my notebook.

Nicole [00:28:39]: Lost in the sauce?

John [00:28:42]: Yeah. I was gonna say something about I.

Nicole [00:28:44]: Was hoarding the pen.

John [00:28:45]: That's okay. It's too late now. But.

John [00:28:50]: I can't remember it now. It'll come to me.

Nicole [00:28:53]: Yeah.

John [00:28:53]: Oh, no, no. I know what I was gonna say. It just came right to me. So you gotta think about, like, if you had a guy that was spending two, three hours a day watching corn, right? You kind of get down on him, not just because he's watching corn, but you'd be like, you're ignoring your. Your wife and your kids. Like, why you're spending all this time watching corn. It's not like you're building a business. It's not like you're going and working out. Like, you're indulging yourself in fantasies. So you'd probably be like, you're. You're not. Like, you're not doing your job right. You'd be probably like, you're a bad husband. You're a bad father. Like, you probably would say that to that guy. Right? Honestly. Okay, so if you're reading hundreds of books, which take. How many hours does it take to read one book? Okay, so if you're doing that right, like, I'm not saying, you know, reading a handful of books, even. Even that's, you know, smut novel is still not good. But I'm saying that a lot of women are so addicted to this, right. That they're reading hundreds of books? How many hours of time is being wasted that's not being spent with your husband. That's not being spent with your kids. That's not being spent on productive things. It's not good.

Nicole [00:30:10]: Well, my thing, too, is. And they might get mad, but they're gonna get.

John [00:30:16]: They're already mad.

Nicole [00:30:18]: I would dare to say that you got into smut novels because your sex life probably wasn't fulfilling, and then you used it to fill that void, and then now you got addicted to it, and now you don't need to work on fixing your sex life with your partner because you're. This thing is filling this void now, right?

John [00:30:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:37]: If you're fulfilled in your sex life, you don't need to read about other people having sex, right?

John [00:30:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:46]: It's not something that you actively seek out. Like, I am in a book club with girls that I know, and they read smut, and that's. That's on them. That's not on me. But I'm. I'm not Reading the books that they're reading. You don't read them in the book club, but I know outside of book club they read the books.

John [00:31:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:05]: And that is their choice. However, you know, I am not going to read any of those books because I know that none of them could accurately depict the type of intimacy that you and I have.

John [00:31:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:19]: And it's far greater than anything I could read about some minotaur or anything else really. Even like the human ones with the vampires and the fairies and whatever. Like all of it, like, is not going to top what you and I have and like the things that we do. And so I feel like you have to also be honest about that part too. Is that if you are supplementing your sexual energy towards books.

John [00:31:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:48]: You could be putting that towards your actual intimacy with your partner and create such a great sex life that you don't need the books.

John [00:31:58]: Yeah. If you put all that time and energy instead into developing your sex, your actual sex life with your partner, that, that's a lot of hours of time that you could work on things and make things really good.

Nicole [00:32:11]: Right.

John [00:32:11]: You know?

Nicole [00:32:12]: Exactly.

John [00:32:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:13]: Well, and I know the last time we did this, the book talk, people were like, well, you've never read a book, so you don't understand. I've read some romance books that have some scenes of spice. I wouldn't even. Yeah. Spice is what they call it. And it's not like full blown.

John [00:32:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:28]: Erotica. And it's like, I don't need to read the full blown erotica when already the like spicy parts of these romance books. Right. Are not interesting to me.

John [00:32:39]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:40]: Like, I don't need a five page description of some guy and some woman that I don't know doing things to each other when I could call you into the room and we could do the things and that would be way better. Yeah. You know what I mean? So like I summon me red. You could be like some of the spicy stuff. But it doesn't interest me. Like, it's. That's not what I'm here for. I am here for the story.

John [00:33:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:06]: And when they throw in those things, I'm kind of like you. Kind of.

John [00:33:09]: And it's not just a matter of taste. Right. Because it's like, look, I haven't done meth, but I'm pretty sure I'd like it, you know? But I'm not going to because it's not going to be good for me. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, because sometimes people say, oh, well, it's just what I'm into or what I like. Yeah, no, like, whoever did, whatever drug that you did, you'd like it, but it doesn't mean that you should do it or that, you know, it's not just a matter of taste. It's just like. It's prudence. Right. It's like. Yeah, if you read smut novels, you're going to enjoy them. Of course you're going to, because they're designed that way.

Nicole [00:33:42]: Right.

John [00:33:43]: Just like when you eat a Reese's Bar, it tastes good because it's designed that way.

Nicole [00:33:47]: You want to eat another one.

John [00:33:48]: Exactly. It's designed that way.

Nicole [00:33:50]: Right.

John [00:33:50]: But. But that doesn't mean that, you know, that you should indulge in it.

Nicole [00:33:54]: Yeah.

John [00:33:54]: You know what I mean?

Nicole [00:33:55]: That's exactly. And it's like, if you can control yourself, because I've said this before, like, if you're single and you want to have some special time with yourself, I don't see the harm in reading a spicy book. But if you can't control yourself to go from, like, spicy to a hundred.

John [00:34:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:17]: Then you probably shouldn't do that.

John [00:34:19]: And it's probably better to just avoid that in general. Right. To use your mind to, like.

Nicole [00:34:23]: I mean, if it's gonna. If most people spiral to.

John [00:34:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:34:27]: A Minotaur milkmaid book, then yeah, you.

John [00:34:29]: Should, because you want to have that system primed as best as possible. You know what I'm saying? And to be. Be as sensitized as possible, that's like, something that I think a lot of people didn't really think about until the corn epidemic came around. And now it's like all these guys are having some major problems, right, With. With their wives and girlfriends and. And whatnot. And. But this, you know, so I. I think that's. That is important.

Nicole [00:34:54]: Yeah. But I think both people have to give it up. The guys have to give up the Kern, and the woman have to give up the. The smut novels.

John [00:35:00]: And I think that the issue is, like, because you said, I mean, we know a ton of people, a lot, most women, a large percentage of women read smut novels. Right? So it's not like we're saying, oh, you're a bad person. And like. But it's like. But you do need to wake up and, And, And. And realize that it's not good.

Nicole [00:35:17]: Right?

John [00:35:18]: Like, it's not like you. You know what I'm saying? It's not like mo. I think a lot of women that are. Are partaking in this, don't they're? Just innocently doing so they don't think there's anything wrong.

Nicole [00:35:28]: Or they've seen other people be like, oh, I like this spicy book. And, like, spicy, spicy. And they're like, oh, okay, we're, like, outwardly reading these books now, like, in public. Okay, like, I'll do it. You know, like, they're just going along with, could it. Cause that you go down the spiral.

John [00:35:42]: But that's why we're making this episode. It's not to, like, beat up on people and be like, oh, you're such a bad person. It's just to make you realize that, look, you. You need an intervention because you're not realizing how bad this is actually is right for both men and women. Like, men also need to realize on the corn side, obviously, that's been talked about plenty, but. But that your wife reading these is not good. It's not good for you. It's like, you might think it's good for you, but it's not good because, well.

Nicole [00:36:08]: And if you're a man reading or watching corn, you need to stop that as well, too, right?

John [00:36:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:13]: Because 90% of men do that. And this, I'm sure the smut novels, it's getting up to the same sort of percentage. Like you said, like, we're not here to shame people. We know plenty of people that read these sort of books. And I'm not saying they're worse. I'm better than them. I'm not saying that in any way.

John [00:36:31]: No.

Nicole [00:36:31]: I'm just saying. And what you're saying is that we just want people to realize what's actually happening. Like, this is the woman version of corn, but it's actually kind of worse because it's been normalized and popular. Popular. Lies.

John [00:36:45]: Yeah, popular.

Nicole [00:36:47]: Popularized. Popularized. And, like, that is damaging your actual real life, physical, intimate relationships and situations that you're in. And you don't think that it is, right? You think that, oh, no, it's good. Like, I want to do it all the time, but, like, can you honestly sit here and tell me that you want to do it with the man that you're looking at when you're on top of him? Or are you pretending he's a minotaur that you're milking or bringing or of.

John [00:37:19]: Vampire enduring some fantasy from the book, right?

Nicole [00:37:22]: Like, or thinking of some scenario that you're in and that, like, you're not really in the moment? And I guess that's the thing is, like, I want to help women enjoy their real life, like, be in the moment. Like. Like, I get that going to this, like, fantasy land is a good coping mechanism that people like to use, but it's not actually good for you. Like, it works, right, to escape what's going on in your life. But the thing that's going to make you the happiest is coming back to reality, fixing your reality, where it's a place you actually want to be and be present in the moment with the person that you love and you want to be intimate with instead of fantasizing, even when you're with that person. Because, like you said, do you know how offended women would be if, like, she was intimate with her man and he was like, yeah, I was imagining you were like my steps sister from that one video. You know what I mean? Like that. But that's essentially what it is.

John [00:38:19]: And let me give you the counter argument to that, because I already know that it's coming, which is that women will say, I don't do that. I just like the books. It just turns me on, and then I'm so turned on, and then I'm present having sex with my man.

Nicole [00:38:35]: Like you said, you can't detach, though. You can't detach those things.

John [00:38:39]: Let's say that that's even true. Let's give them that. So if a guy is like, oh, yeah, I just watch a bunch of porn, now I want to have sex with you. Like, the porn turned me on. The corn. I've blown it. That's okay. That's what he said.

Nicole [00:38:54]: I'm still going to say, wow, the.

John [00:38:57]: Corn turned me on, and now I want to have sex with you. How does that feel? Not you turned me on. Not you turned me on. So if you're like, as a woman, oh, the book turned me on and I want to have sex with you.

Nicole [00:39:09]: Hurry up. I'm turned on. You better hurry. It's not because of you. It's because of this book. So. So it's fading fast.

John [00:39:13]: And that's really the actual. The actuality, like, those words are even spoken, right?

Nicole [00:39:19]: Yeah.

John [00:39:20]: You know, like, it doesn't. It wouldn't work the other way. You wouldn't be very happy about that. It's like, oh, I don't turn you on. You have to look at porn and then you're turned on. Now you're ready to go. Yeah, that doesn't. It doesn't make any sense. So that's.

Nicole [00:39:33]: No, I agree. It's like, it's offensive, and any woman would be offended.

John [00:39:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:38]: So why do we think it's okay to do it to men.

John [00:39:40]: And even as a single woman, I'm telling you because, you know, guys have talked about this and I've seen them talk about it and I've coached guys and I'm like, look, if you're dating a girl and you go over to her house and you see a bookshelf full of smut novels, just walk out. Because you're not like, walk out because you're done. Because you're done. Because she's so. Because you're gonna have to do, like, find another girl that's not ruined. Because that's what it's gonna be like.

Nicole [00:40:03]: They're gonna have no woman. A lot of women are reading the smut novel.

John [00:40:06]: I know. So don't be one of those. Because honestly, like, if I'm good advice to a guy, I already know what he's competing against. It's not good. Like, he. He's not gonna. Like, she's already got so much stuff that she's consumed that has filled her mind. And we're not just talking about minotaur stuff. But also dark, you know, degrading, kind of abusive. Yeah. That. It's like, what are you gonna do? You're either gonna like, be one of those guys and give her what she, quote, wants or. Which is still not even gonna, you know, like. Or what. What option do you have? Like you said, I'm saying, otherwise, you might as well just walk out.

Nicole [00:40:46]: But then you make it sound like they're. They can't be fixed.

John [00:40:49]: Well, they have to fix themselves. But what I'm saying is that. But like you, at that point, you're broken. You have to realize that you're broken. Like your sexuality is broken. Like, okay, if we had a guy and he. And he gets turned on by watching animals or whatever, like watching some really perverted porn, right? We would say he's broken. We'd be like, you. You would not tell a girl that's like, oh, yeah, when you looked at his browsing history and it was like a bunch of weird ass porn, you wouldn't be like, yeah, that seems like a good guy you should date. You'd be like, maybe stay away from that guy. Right? So why would it work any different? Because it's weird ass shit that. You know what I'm saying? That's what I'm saying is like, it's not to be. I'm not trying to be offensive or mean or rude. I'm just saying that's the reality is that if I'm giving good advice to a Guy, I'm like, yeah, if a girl's involved with all that stuff, there's a lot of things that are going to be broken that I don't know. If you want to come in and be the guy that tries to fix it and good luck, because someone's got an addiction, how are you going to help someone? You know, it's just like, if. If someone's. If a guy's got an addiction, what are you going to do? You're gonna hope that he breaks his addiction. He needs to break the addiction first.

Nicole [00:42:02]: Yeah, man, you really. That probably messed up the dating world the most if people listen to that.

John [00:42:08]: I mean, I'm just saying. I mean, tell me that I'm wrong. Tell me that I'm wrong. I'd rather be wrong.

Nicole [00:42:13]: But here's the problem is that women can't see a man's browser history, but if she has her books out, she's gonna be able to see. But men can hide their stuff.

John [00:42:22]: Sure.

Nicole [00:42:23]: Which is just as bad. Like, men should also not be doing that sort of stuff.

John [00:42:27]: Right.

Nicole [00:42:27]: And especially if you're like, not if you're keeping that from your partner. Because that's the worst. Like, I mean, at least with the book ladies, they're pretty open about what they're reading.

John [00:42:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:42:39]: And so there can be a conversation. But with guys, it's all very secretive. Like, most women don't know the type of corn that their man is watching or the person that they want to go on a date is watching. And then they get in a relationship, and then they don't even have the option to make that decision before they get in a relationship.

John [00:43:00]: You think most guys really know what's in these books? They're probably like, oh, she's just reading romance novels. Which. Which again, I'm also. I think at this point, I'm also against the reading romance novels. I don't think that's a good idea because that's also just creating a. It's not just real life, you know, like, stick to real life stuff. Right. You know what I mean? Not. Not when it comes to your sexuality. Like, if you want to read a fantasy novel about dragons and whatever and, and knights, whatever, adventure, sure, that's. That's fine. Or some sci fi thing or whatever. But when it comes to, like, your sexuality, you probably don't want to mess with that and set expectations and set things that are not achievable. And also the novelty of it, because it's like, why don't you just read the same book over and over again because you want the novelty of it. And if you get yourself stimulated and hooked on novelty, you're going to constantly want. So if you read a bunch of romance novels that aren't even smut novels, right? And then you get into a relationship with one guy, but you've been reading fantasy stories about all these romances, you think you're going to be less and more satisfied. I'm not saying that you couldn't have a successful relationship. I'm just gonna. I'm just saying that would you be more or less satisfied than if you hadn't? You know, and it's common sense. Yeah, but, but definitely with the, with, with the novels. Most guys don't even know what's in those books. They don't think that she's reading about some milking minute, you know, they don't think that that's what's going on. So they don't.

Nicole [00:44:21]: They don't have any idea videos that we saw in the One.

John [00:44:24]: But most guys in general don't know that. Yeah, right. Or, or even the dark kind of really BDSM type of like, until they're.

Nicole [00:44:33]: With a woman that tells them to do stuff, and then they're like, what?

John [00:44:36]: Yeah, and that's, that's off putting as a guy. Right? Because I've had women tell me stuff like that, like, do this and I'm like, no, I'm not gonna. Not gonna hit you, not gonna choke you, not gonna slap you in the face. Sorry. That's not that, you know, there's something wrong with you. Like, and I'm not gonna, I'm not going to reinforce your abuse pattern because that would be abuse in any other situation, that would be abuse. Right yet now it's okay. No, it's abuse. Like, and, oh, it's consenting. No, it's still abuse. Like, you, like, just. Because if I'm like, if you're like, hey, hit my hand with a, With a. My, My thumb with a hammer, you're like, I know. I want you to. That, like, if I do it, I'm still bad. I'm still wrong. I'm still hurting you. Like, I'm. And I'm choosing to do that. Even if you tell me that's what you want me to do, it's still violent. It's still not something that's product that's good for that person.

Nicole [00:45:25]: Right.

John [00:45:25]: You know what I mean? Like, you don't just do things just because people want you to do them and think that you're okay and Instead.

Nicole [00:45:31]: You should want to be, like, admired and adored and, like, looked at fondly and lovingly. Like, that should be the energy that we have when we're in intimate relationships. And if you're honest with yourself as a woman, you need to ask yourself where these sort of desires, like hitting and choking and some of the more extreme ones really came from.

John [00:45:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:57]: Because it's probably not a good place where it came from.

John [00:46:00]: Right. It came from somewhere. Something you read, something you experienced, something you saw, something you know that. That got you turned on about that. And then that became like. That became rooted into your. Your sexuality and your psychology.

Nicole [00:46:14]: Yeah. Which I really think what you said earlier on, that the root desire of most women, majority of women, is a strong, dominant man.

John [00:46:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:28]: Because that is what the core is at all these smut novels, books as well, too. All of these characters that these men are. Are these strong, dominant men that, like, turn soft for them or, you know, like, care about them and protect them. But they're all usually strong dominant men or creatures or whatever. Like, that's the core thing. And when you feel like you have to feel.

Nicole [00:46:56]: That strong dominance to an extreme where they have to literally hurt you in order for you to feel that contrast, that's a problem because you should still be able to admire and feel the dominance without a man hurting you or like resorting to violence, even if you're asking for it.

John [00:47:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:17]: That's like you have taken it to this extreme that you don't even realize is an extreme because you won't even allow yourself to experience the normal dominance of a man in a way that would have you, that part of your desire fulfilled. Right now it has to go to the extreme because somewhere along the way, the normal desire of it became not enough.

John [00:47:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:47]: And then it's just going to keep going. The more you have somebody actually doing the extreme things or reading the extreme things, the further down the extremes you're going to go. Just like a man watching corn.

John [00:47:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:59]: It's no different that everyone starts out pretty innocent.

John [00:48:05]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:06]: And then certain things happen. They get addicted to it. They need more, they need new, they need more extreme to get the same feeling. It's essentially what a drug addict does as well, too. They need more drugs to feel the same feeling they had before. And so you have to be real with where this all came from.

John [00:48:24]: And that only comes if you indulge, if you deprive, you reset, you create that healthy balance. And the same exists in the world. I forget what they call it, but it's A, I can't remember the term of it, but our food is like that as well. Right. Because our natural food of like fruits, in fact, the original fruits weren't even that sweet. Even the fruits that we eat now, which we call natural, are not. They're super GMO'd. Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:54]: Well, they're genetically modified.

John [00:48:57]: They're artificial in the sense. Yeah. Even if they're not GMO'd, but bred even for the sweetness or the. Right. But the food that we have, it's an artificial. When you go and you get a hamburger and all of the additives and the sugar, refined sugar and all of these things, it creates a. I can't think of the name for it, but there's a word for this where that's why we're fat, that's why we have all of these health problems, is because those foods, we overeat them, we overindulge them because they're.

John [00:49:32]: They'Re greater than the natural pleasure response that we get from those things. And so it's the same thing with corn, with the smut novels, is that it creates this over consumption because it's more than a natural stimulus and it makes it so you're not happy with natural stimulus. If you ate an old time apple or whatever before it was bred, like how it existed originally in nature, you'd, you'd be like, oh, this is disgusting. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't taste sweet at all. You know, I mean, like so, so that's, that's, that's the issue is that we're creating these environments and it exists in social media all over the place where we're getting this constant dopamine and, and, and it's making it so we're not satisfied with, with anything.

Nicole [00:50:16]: Right. That's true. Well, and to think about too, along with the like resensitizing, Think about when you haven't gotten any in a while.

John [00:50:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:25]: Like let's say a month. Let's say you haven't gotten any. A month. And then you're with your partner, you're with someone and they like just touch you and you're like ready to go. Like you can do that with your mind, you can resensitize yourself.

John [00:50:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:39]: But you have to deprive yourself, Right. If you've gone this far.

John [00:50:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:50:44]: And get back to the baseline that you need to be at.

John [00:50:49]: Right.

Nicole [00:50:50]: So like it is possible, we've seen it. And just like with your apple thing, like if you weren't able to eat anything except that apple.

John [00:50:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:58]: Eventually that apple would taste really good.

John [00:51:00]: Oh, yeah. Well, if you go on a diet and you don't eat any sugar. Right. Or you do like a keto diet where you don't eat any carbohydrates and then you have just like a little piece of something sweet, it's. It tastes so much sweeter.

Nicole [00:51:13]: Right.

John [00:51:14]: You know, so.

Nicole [00:51:14]: Yeah.

John [00:51:15]: Should I read that guy's.

Nicole [00:51:16]: Yes.

John [00:51:17]: Email before? Let me see. I can find.

Nicole [00:51:20]: Just so people can have other. Someone else's perspective.

John [00:51:23]: Yeah. Because he had some good questions about. Let me see. I think. I think we still saved it in the email account there.

Nicole [00:51:30]: Yeah, I think it's still on the normal email.

John [00:51:32]: Okay.

John [00:51:39]: Oh yeah. Jake. Okay.

Nicole [00:51:42]: From State Farm.

John [00:51:44]: He says here. So I listen to your podcast on this subject is romance novels. So I listened to your podcast on this after doing a whole bunch of deep dives into women wives who read romance novels. This is all my wife exclusively reads. We've been together since we were 17, married for 17 years now and have three kids. She started reading 50 Shades during all the hubbub when it came out in 2017ish. We watched all the movies together and I found that all extremely hot. And then she really dove headfirst into romance novels for her escape in 2020, which to me back then was even more awesome. Nothing like being quarantined with three kids and a wife who couldn't get enough of me thanks to her books. It was really a great time. Fast forward five years and she still is just invested into these all spice levels, all genres. She gets her playlists, finds pictures of the couples or. Or more if. Or more if it's a. Why choose novel? And dives in every night so she actually finds pictures of the couple so.

Nicole [00:52:50]: She can see what they look like.

John [00:52:51]: Yeah, I've expressed how these make me feel and compared them to me watching porn. And just like all the excuses in your podcast, it's not the same. It's different. I enjoy the story. Where I get my biggest heartburn is from is she won't share the novels with me, she won't talk about them, won't let me read over her shoulder during the spicy scenes, has pictures of the couples, et cetera. If she sees me reading over her shoulder, it causes quite an issue. Saying I give her the ick feeling for reading these scenes, which I have said maybe she shouldn't be reading. These really did help her come out of her shell sexually and normalize the ability to talk about different things and what we like and don't like. So there can be some positive things. I've gone behind her and read some of the books and man, talk about making me feel insecure. Some of her arguments are it didn't used to bother you, why does it matter? Which makes me feel even more insecure that she is shocked that it bothers me. Part of me wants to just throw up my hands and join her. We are pretty devotee Christians so this leads to a whole other layer of guilt for me when I decide to indulge myself in the books. Especially because she wouldn't approve of me reading them because I don't read them for the stories they're written by women. For women. Anyways, I love my wife with all my heart and hate that I feel like this has come between us from my perspective as it doesn't seem to affect her opinion of me and I'm quite at a loss on how to navigate this beyond prayer and spiritual intervention. It's definitely much more culturally appropriate for women to read these than it is for men to consume porn. And I hate talking about this because it feels like I'm putting my wife on blast. I don't personally watch porn anymore for a variety of reasons. The biggest is now having a daughter and man, what a different perspective that puts on your life. This email is all over the place, just me vomiting my thoughts. It was nice to hear a similar perspective from another couple, especially one without faith based background to not make me feel crazy insecure. Feel free to write back any tips on future conversations with my wife. How to explain how it makes me feel without causing more arguments. So quite a bit there. But I mean I'm glad that you said that email because like that shows the progression.

Nicole [00:55:11]: Right.

John [00:55:11]: And like he thought it was a good thing at first and now look what's, what's happening and how far that she's gone down this just starting with the 50 shades of gray.

Nicole [00:55:20]: If he can't look over your shoulder, read the thing. That's, that's, I mean that's textbook. Like you know, you're not doing what you should be doing. Yeah, that's like men when they're cheating and you can't see their phone. Like why are you not letting your husband read these things? Yeah, like that is a huge red flag and I feel for him because again, like you said, he liked the benefits in the beginning.

John [00:55:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:48]: But now it's, it's gotten to a point where it's secretive and he's excluded and.

Nicole [00:55:57]: It'S not going to get Better. Unless she stops reading the books.

John [00:56:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:03]: And hopefully they talk about it and she actually listens to what he has to say. Because I think honestly, if you're an open minded person, you have to realize it's super hypocritical.

John [00:56:14]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:56:16]: For women to be able to read their corn. But guys get crap for watching corn.

John [00:56:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:56:22]: Like they're essentially the same thing because the purpose is the same.

John [00:56:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:27]: I don't care if there's people in it or it's AI or it's words or it's braille. I don't care what it is. The purpose is to get turned on sexually, to do things sexually.

John [00:56:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:56:43]: And that's the same. And so we can't be hypocritical and say one is fine and publicize it and also make it like where children are coming across some of these books and they might read the book or something and which they shouldn't be. If a child. If you would be upset that your child is watching corn.

John [00:57:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:03]: You should be upset that your child's reading this book.

John [00:57:05]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:57:07]: So that's the biggest thing here is that you have to honestly realize that it's super hypocritical that these books are fine. Especially the majority of them that are really, really bad, like really explicit, really, you know, harmful, extreme situations that we're normalizing. And that's the biggest problem here. It doesn't matter that it's a book like it. It is perpetuating something that is not good. I mean, that email shows that it has spiraled into something where now she's being secretive and she's like, you're giving me the ick. Do you think she's gonna want to go have sex with him if she. If he's giving her the ick?

John [00:57:50]: Right. Yeah, exactly. Can you imagine having your spouse tell you that it's giving you the ick? Like, that's how far it's gone, you know?

Nicole [00:58:00]: Yeah. And then. And her looking up what the people look like.

John [00:58:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:04]: Now it is getting visual.

John [00:58:05]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:06]: Now it is getting, you know, into another level.

John [00:58:08]: It's become this level of addiction.

Nicole [00:58:10]: Right, right.

John [00:58:11]: It's not sexual liberation. It's not all those things. Like, she's making all the excuses. Just like, I mean, I've dealt with drug addicts and they will lie to you. They will tell you every reason why they're not addicted, why they can go without a fix. They'll tell you everything.

Nicole [00:58:29]: Yeah.

John [00:58:30]: Everything to convince you that they're not as depraved as they actually are, because that's how. Because they don't want to be cut off from their source.

Nicole [00:58:39]: Right.

John [00:58:39]: You know what I'm saying? And that's the thing, because there's. It's so. So dear to them that they don't want to be cut, that they'll give anything to not be cut off from their source.

Nicole [00:58:49]: Right.

John [00:58:50]: And that's. That's the same behavior.

Nicole [00:58:52]: Well, and the issue, too, when he said that he's glad that they, you know, are able to talk about things more, I think that he's confusing that the books gave her that because really, she should be open with him, and they should have been trying things and figuring those things out together.

John [00:59:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:12]: And so I don't think that it's the book necessarily, and I don't want people to think like, oh, I need the book to figure out what I like sexually.

John [00:59:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:23]: Like, there are plenty of other ways to do that, especially if you have a partner. You guys can talk about it and try new things and figure out what you like and you don't like without having to. And that's a safe place. And it's reality. Rather than reading this book that might have extreme things that you might be like, oh, can we try this? You know what I mean? Like, things that you probably shouldn't even be willing to try in the first place.

John [00:59:51]: Yeah. So the advice for him.

John [00:59:56]: I would say for him to have a conversation with her and to say, look.

John [01:00:04]: I'm very uncomfortable with this.

John [01:00:08]: Do you care that I'm very uncomfortable with this? Regardless of what your reasons are or whatever.

John [01:00:14]: Do you care that I'm very uncomfortable to start the conversation with that, and then if she says yes and say, okay, well, you know, what can we do to change the situation and then to explain to her why.

Nicole [01:00:26]: Right. Well, he could even. I was gonna say, he could even start with, like, I know that we both were fine with this in the beginning, but now to the point that it's gotten him very uncomfortable, and I don't think that it's a good idea anymore at all.

John [01:00:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:40]: Like, you know, he can be honest and be like, you know, I did tell you that this was fine, but I was wrong.

John [01:00:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:48]: Like, because look what it's done to our relationship.

John [01:00:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:52]: And our intimacy. Like, I'm sure their intimacy is affected as well, too.

John [01:00:56]: Yeah. And. And even to admit that, of course this is going to make him feel sexually insecure in this case. Right. In most cases, I don't tell a guy to admit that he feels Insecure. But in this case it's ob. Like, there's. It's not an insecurity for just because you're. You're weak.

Nicole [01:01:11]: Right.

John [01:01:11]: It's an insecurity because who wouldn't?

Nicole [01:01:13]: Right.

John [01:01:13]: And then just give her the flip the script. Don't even use porn. Just say, okay, if I read these books and I spent hours reading these.

Nicole [01:01:22]: Books and I was hiding them from you, I was looking up pictures, would.

John [01:01:26]: You feel insecure about that? Would you be okay with that? Would you. Honestly, Would you feel like there wasn't a problem?

Nicole [01:01:32]: Right, right.

John [01:01:33]: Like, you know, obviously you would. And then I think at some point you kind of have to put your foot down and be like, all right, if you're going to continue to do this, even though. And there's a difference between saying, okay, you better not do this. Right. Versus if you're going to continue to do this even though I've told you how uncomfortable it makes me feel.

John [01:01:57]: Then I'm going to distance myself. I'm not going to have sex with you. I'm not going to be just an object that you use. I'm not going to feel comfortable having sex with you. Or, you know, in. And hey, maybe it, I mean, like, you're going to have to have a lot of hard conversations about it.

Nicole [01:02:18]: Right. You'll have to have a boundary. The boundary that feels right to have in that situation. Which should be a boundary.

John [01:02:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:25]: Because you can't that just like, if a guy was addicted to corn and you're like, hey, this makes me uncomfortable. Like, could you please stop doing that? And they continue to do it. A woman would have to do the same sort of thing, have some sort of boundary, have some sort of, of, you know, action that she takes in regards to this thing that is destroying their relationship.

John [01:02:45]: And if you need an intervention, look, if you're Christian, you say that she's Christian. You're both Christian. Go to your pastor.

Nicole [01:02:51]: Yeah.

John [01:02:52]: And be like, hey, let's sit down and ask him about it and see what he says. Let's like, let's get a third party perspective on it and see if that. Or go to marriage counseling and, you know, and see what they. I mean, I think that most people even, even a very woke therapist would realize that this is destructive to their relationship at this point. You see what I'm saying? So, like, get the intervention. I mean, it's going to take some balls to, to do this because she's not going to be happy about it and she might threaten to divorce you. Or whatever. But it's like, you're going that direction either way, right? So you might as well be steering the ship and be, like, in control of this. And maybe even you're the one that has to say, well, maybe we need some time apart or whatever. Because, like, this is an addiction, and this is not healthy, and this is not okay. And this is not what I signed up for. Like, this is. I consider this to be cheating. Like, it's. It's not being sexually faithful to, like, especially when you're bringing up pictures of other people, even if they're fantasy people, you know?

Nicole [01:03:50]: Yeah.

John [01:03:50]: So.

Nicole [01:03:51]: Yeah, yeah. No, I agree.

John [01:03:53]: It's a sticky. But that's why don't ever get to the situation.

Nicole [01:03:55]: Don't go down.

John [01:03:56]: You know, it's like if the wormhole. Yeah. Like, and. And if you're a guy that your wife is just reading some whatever, smack.

Nicole [01:04:05]: It out of her hand. Just kidding.

Nicole [01:04:11]: Throw it away when she goes to.

John [01:04:12]: The grocery store, down the toilet, be like, empty all our books into the.

Nicole [01:04:17]: Trash can and be like, honey, where's my book? Oh, I have no idea. I don't know.

John [01:04:23]: No, but confront.

Nicole [01:04:24]: Have a conversation.

John [01:04:25]: Confront it now.

Nicole [01:04:26]: Right.

John [01:04:27]: You know?

Nicole [01:04:28]: Right.

John [01:04:28]: Yeah. And even just be like, oh, I'm glad you're showing more sexual interest. I really like that.

Nicole [01:04:33]: However, I want it to be geared towards me, not.

John [01:04:37]: It's not. I'm not comfortable. Because if you don't have the balls to do it, then, like, when you feel like it's a benefit to you, then you're going to let it get to the point where it's not going to feel like a benefit to you anymore because that's going to wear off and you're going to be like, okay, you know, she's just using me.

Nicole [01:04:51]: Right.

John [01:04:51]: And that's not gonna. Not gonna feel good.

Nicole [01:04:54]: Right. So you're right.

John [01:04:56]: All right, well, book talk come for us.

Nicole [01:05:01]: They're going to.

John [01:05:01]: They're gonna come for it.

Nicole [01:05:02]: But I think we make a lot of sense. Yeah, but I'm biased.

John [01:05:06]: But yeah. And the authors that, like, try to. Like, this is one thing. I'll say one last thing, is because the authors. Because they came for us. The authors.

Nicole [01:05:13]: Yeah, but they're just trying to make money.

John [01:05:14]: Yeah, that's exactly. They're just trying to make money. They're like a drug dealer. So I don't respect any of that. You're not. You're not a writer, okay? You're peddling smut like. Like, you're. You're. It's it's depravity. Like you might be. Oh, it's. It's not, it's not literature. It's not literature. Right. It's not, it's not. Let's not pretend like it's your art or whatever kind of. You're making money peddling that Maybe you're an addict too, and you. And you cook up a good batch as well, but that's like you're a drug dealer. Like you're allowing people to destroy their lives and their relationships and you're profiting from that. So I don't have any respect for you. I'm not going to. I'm not gonna worry about. I'm stepping on your toes and hurting your feelings. I mean, we're a little bit softer on it. It last time. But. But as I've thought about it more, I'm like, no, no, you, you're the, you're the problem. It's like you're benefiting from other people's misery. You know what I mean? So there you go.

Nicole [01:06:08]: They are just upset because this is their bread and butter, which I get. But it's like.

Nicole [01:06:14]: It'S like you're. Like you said, you're kind of. You're promoting the issue.

John [01:06:18]: Yeah. Yeah. If you want to write, write. But don't write that. Like. Like I, I would respect you as an author if you write something. Yeah. Maybe even if you write a book and it had to had a sex scene in. Okay, whatever. Like. Or whatever. Like. So, you know, but. But the, that, the stuff that you're. Right. You know what you're doing. Right. Don't. Don't try to pretend like I'm an idiot or we don't, you know, don't gaslight me, because I know, you know, we all know, so.

Nicole [01:06:43]: Right. And maybe we will have a author or somebody on here at some point because I wouldn't be opposed to having nobody on here to talk about their perspective. And it's not like we're not open minded.

John [01:06:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:06:53]: But it would be really hard to convince us that smut is good for you at this point. Because I feel like we've done a pretty good job explaining where we're coming from and why we're talking about this. And again, it's not to shame people. It's not to make people feel bad, but it's to get people back to a baseline where they're actually enjoying their real life and their real partner and the real sex that they're having and being in the present, in the now.

John [01:07:24]: Right.

Nicole [01:07:24]: With these experiences rather than living in a fantasy world. And people might be like, oh, well, the real world sucks. Okay, yeah, sure, but we're here. You need to make the best of this real world.

John [01:07:38]: But it's comparison. It sucks in comparison as theft of the.

Nicole [01:07:42]: Right.

John [01:07:42]: The theft of joy.

Nicole [01:07:43]: Right.

John [01:07:44]: So it's like if you didn't have that fantasy world, then you'd have to deal with the real world and find the things that are good in it.

Nicole [01:07:49]: Yeah, exactly.

John [01:07:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:07:50]: Which is what you should be doing, because you can't even go to these fantasy places in your books, only mentally. And do you just want to live in your mind or do you want to live here while you still have the chance? So.

John [01:08:02]: All right, well, let's close the book on it. All right, guys, if you want to, you know, yell at us and you're looking for the complaint department. It's that better than perfect podcastmail.com. we will read all the emails and. And then put them in the archive. But then talk about delete them. But no, no, if you got it. If you got a valid, you know, if you got a good rebuttal, yeah, we'll hear it. We'll read it for sure.

Nicole [01:08:32]: Talk about it.

John [01:08:33]: But. And you can check us out@betterthenperfectpod.com See you next year.