John: When people say love is not enough, you're usually giving up way too soon. If someone is really into basketball and they're like, "I love basketball," and they want to be in the NBA, "I watch every single basketball game. I know every player's stats," and then they're like, "See, I'm not in the NBA. Love's not enough." Well, are you actually out there on the court? Are you practicing like Kobe, 2 hours before practice starts and shooting, and then beginning practice at 5:00 a.m.? It's the same type of thing. "I loved my wife or I loved my husband, and I did all these things for them." The level in which that love becomes that unconditional love for the whole world, that level is so much beyond. If people realize just how much is actually expected of them, needed of them, in order to really love like that, they're probably going to find that love is enough. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole: That's right. And I hear you guys, you don't like our theme song. You let—

John: You better like it. Or like, I'll just start singing it. That "See perf, we discover. No, I'll spare you guys. Beyond the perfect, we discover. Through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect, we stay. Through every fault, we find no New Year. We're healthy, we got our waters." Well, I guess the death dropped us.

Nicole: No, no, we're just teasing Liquid Death. They're like, "Oh, we're getting free advertised." They're like, "Oh, actually no. Crystal Geyser, you could be, could be you, but it's not. No, but it could be for the low price of $5. There you go. That's a deal." But yeah, New Year, yeah, same old us.

John: Well, yeah, it's going to be well into the new year as—

Nicole: Yeah, but you know, not well, but a decent amount of time. Yeah, so I, many people will start their New Year's resolutions at the same time as this episode comes. You restart whenever. All that matters is if you're working on yourself. That's all that matters. Yeah, I want to do, I'm going to do the 75 hard this year. Have you heard of that?

John: I have, but you, you heard of it. Yeah, it's not, it's basically what I do. I mean, good luck. I'm not joining you, probably on that. It's like two workouts, one has to be outside. You read like how many, a certain number of pages.

Nicole: Yeah, which that's easy, and eat a specific diet, right?

John: Mhm, which, one meal a day, but I'm going to do no sugar as well, no alcohol, which is standard for us, and then what else you do is the no sugar always a part of it, or no, I'm just, you know, that's your, that's my, the diet I'm choosing. You got to take progress pictures. Maybe that's one other piece of it, I think.

Nicole: Oh, oh, a gallon of water.

John: Oh, see, that one's going to be tough for me, but that's the only one. No, not if you have like your jug of water. If you miss a day, you got to restart. You start over. So, that sounds like a thing that you would like, a challenge that you would like.

Nicole: Yeah, so, but I mean, it is not a lot different than my normal operations, no, it's not. So, but I, yeah, I'm going to do it just, and I'm going to have all my people do it too.

John: Right, like all your people, your community.

Nicole: My, yeah, right, the Bulldogs. Good idea.

John: Yeah, if they want to join me. So, accountability, and I can't drop the ball because, you know, because you're, that's right, you're leading this brigade.

Nicole: Yeah, so, yeah. Well, all right, should we get into the topic? That's all we're going to introduce for the new year. I, me, you got something else?

John: I'm trying to think. Have we got any drama? I don't think this, I mean, it's like the usual. The one dude is like, "Oh, you guys finally got something right." He did it twice.

Nicole: Give Kevin his time.

John: He's not worth it. He's not worth it. I think Kevin came from TikTok, like Instagram. He's like, okay, he comments on every single one. So, like, thanks for the support. But I got one, I got this dck guy, and he just comments on every single video of mine.

Nicole: Kin is dck.

John: Yeah, you know, it's, well, okay, I guess we'll get into the topic. I can't think of anything else to small talk about. So, the topic for today is a question that a lot of people have talked about when it comes to relationships, like, is love enough for a relationship to succeed? And most people say no, love is not enough, but—

Nicole: Yeah, I think it is, but I think it is a certain circumstance that it is. Okay, I feel like people normally say no because even if you love somebody, it's, you know, one person a lot of times is pulling the weight of their relationship, and the other one's not.

John: Oh, I see.

Nicole: And so, that's why I think a lot of people say no because it's not equally balanced, really, in a majority of relationships, for one reason or another. But if you listen to our podcast, you can help balance it back out.

John: But that's right. I think love is enough if you both have such deep love for each other, and you're both growing individually and as a couple, that it is enough because you can overcome anything that gets in your way if you have that really passionate love for each other and the passion to better yourself and be better for your partner and have that sort of mindset. But I feel like if—

Nicole: You don't both have that, mhm, then it isn't going to be enough because you can only do, like we talk about so much on here, you can only do what you're capable of doing. You can't control the other person, even if you love that person, even if you're doing everything you could think of to help them, yeah, in their lives. You can't do that. And so, I think that's why most people say that love is not enough.

John: Yeah, because everybody's version of love, too, is different. Like, you can love somebody and have a sort of relationship with them than when you're like truly in love, in my mind, in my opinion.

Nicole: Yeah.

John: Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. I think that there's a lot of different ways that people say this, right, that love is not enough. Yeah, circumstantially, if you're talking about two people in love that love each other, love is enough, right? We are the proof of that because our circumstances were not—

Nicole: Very good, thank you.

John: Right, they were not ideal at all.

Nicole: Right, they were not.

John: You know, I was, uh, you know, whatever, and we lived apart and across the country, a lot of things. Watch some other episodes, and you'll get—

Nicole: Yeah, we don't need to go into the whole detail.

John: But yeah, you can watch what is episode four if you want to know the deals. But I was doing things I shouldn't have been doing, let's put it that way. So, uh, but yeah, I mean, it was a very unideal situation.

Nicole: Right, it was pretty much the most unideal situation, as you could, from a logistical standpoint, yeah, as you could have. But love is enough, in that case. We were able to, we made it work because of the love that we had for each other.

John: Right, and that's, yeah, because it's hard to think of a more messed-up situation than what.

John: I mean, it was messy, you know, but I think that is why, because both of us had that love. Like, if I just had it for you, yeah, no, that wouldn't have been enough, and you wouldn't have gotten out of your situation probably, or you know, like it would have just been completely different. So, like, I understand if it's like a one-sided thing, or like it's not equally the same amount, then it's not going to be enough. It's going to just be one person really trying. And I'm not saying that the other person can't love somebody, but there are different degrees of love, just like there's, you know, familiar love and there's friendship love, and there's, you know, like because before you, I thought I loved the people that I was in a serious relationship with, and like in a way it was, but it wasn't this. And like when we talk about it, I'm like, this is what love actually means, like what you and I have.

Nicole: But I genuinely believe that people do feel like they're in love, right? Because it's the most intense feeling that they felt up until that moment. But it's like when you have this level of love and the intensity of love that you and I have, and it's reciprocated, it just transcends all the things. And people are probably like, "I don't believe you." And like, I would have said the same thing if I hadn't met you because I've been like, no, this is what love is, this is all I've ever known, you know, like this is the love I've known, this is the most intense I've ever felt it. So, I'm not trying to invalidate those people. Like, I would have been them if I hadn't met you. Watching two people talk about this on a podcast, I'd be like, "Yeah, whatever." But that's also why we're here doing this, is because we were there, and like this is possible, and we know it's possible. And we even have, you know, friends that also have the same level of love and the intensity of love that you and I both have. So, it is possible, like it's not just us. Yeah, like there are other people out there who feel the same way that you and I feel, and it is possible. And you can even take a relationship where you feel like love isn't enough, and it's one-sided, and create one that does feel like love is enough.

John: Yeah, and I mean, I think about it too, in terms of how is it not enough? Because what gets in the way then? Because I think people would say, "Oh well, finances or careers or family or distance," right? And those might be valid excuses, but what do you really need, right? Like, what do you really like? My argument is that love is enough is because if it was just me and you in a cardboard box, we'd be happy. That's how I feel. It's not ideal, right? There's a lot of circumstances that even like I said, in our situation, were not convenient. But if you have that level of fulfillment in the love that you have, then what thing could really get in the way? I mean, there's a lot of things that you could make a good logical argument, you'd be like, "Oh well, she's a lawyer, she's in New York, I'm doing this, and this is my career, and I have to go to Philadelphia," wherever it is. I don't know why I said those two cities, but that's excuses, right? In that case, love is not enough because you're not letting it be enough. It's not enough for you; you're not feeling compelled enough to figure it out, regardless of what the circumstances are.

Nicole: Right, so that is true. And so maybe the answer is not, "Is love enough?" It's, "Do you love that person enough?"

John: Yeah, and I think maybe that's the question to ask instead of, "Is love enough?" Because if someone asks me, "Is love enough?" I will say, "Absolutely."

Nicole: Yeah, exactly. But again, like before I'd met you, I would have said, probably like you said, the logical answer and be like, "Well, you got to make sure that this is aligned, and these are these things." But it's like, if you have that love for the person that you're with, like none of the external things matter because you're so fulfilled by just the interactions that you have with your partner and the love that you guys show each other, that that genuinely is enough. And that you could go through whatever it is that you're facing and be happy. Like not happy happy in those circumstances, but happier than you would be going through them by yourself.

John: And I think, like what you said about people not getting it, and thinking, "Oh well, it's just," if you heard this and I believe the same thing, if I heard this and I didn't understand it, then I would feel the same way, except that there's levels to this. And I think that's kind of the part of one of the big points of our podcast, is that we're trying to help people see that there are levels to this that are much higher than what you think is the highest level. And that's a hard thing to wrap your head around because you think, "Oh well, it's the same, all relationships are the same, there's some degree of everybody feels the same feelings, like they don't like their partner sometime or they want to get away from them," and like that has become the norm, but that's not how true love is supposed to be. Like, it's more of unconditional love, like you love somebody, you know, like people get mad at us when we talk about this because they're like, "Oh, you can only have unconditional love for a child." Well, why wouldn't you be able to have unconditional love for the person you're choosing to spend your life with? You should have unconditional love for your partner. Like, this is the one person in your life that you get to choose to be with. Yeah, and why wouldn't you unconditionally love them? Are you only unconditionally loving people related to you or that came from you because they're a part of you? And look, here's the goal, right? Here's the goal: the goal is to unconditionally love everybody. Yeah, that's the goal. And your relationship is the training ground for that goal because that's your ultimate goal. Yeah, I know that's not realistic, that you unconditionally love everyone, but that's still what you're aiming for, right? You're trying to become that because that's what we're all trying to become, hopefully. Going too deep, love should always be enough then, because that's the only purpose while we're here. That's the whole thing. And that's why, I mean, we'll get into it in the next episode too, I talk about how men can grow through that process instead of avoiding it. But that is the ultimate goal. So when people say, "Oh, unconditional love, it's not," no, that's the whole thing, is like as a human, as a man, you're supposed, that's your gift to the world, is your love, that gift that you're giving, and it should be to that level of unconditional love. You know, we have this discussion, I think, with Sophia too. I had you overheard when I was having the discussion with her in the 'cause she was like, "There are people I don't like," or you know, I was like, "No, no, no, you want to love every," that's where that.

John: That's what we're aspiring to do. But it is true that in a relationship, you're hopefully learning and developing that ability within each other. So, no, you're right. And it's well, again, like being with you was the first time that the little quirks you have that would have normally bothered me, or most people would be like, "Well, I hate it when he does this," or whatever. Yeah, I never think of those things. There are things that we talk about in context, but I think they're cute. With anyone else, I would have been like, "Why is he doing this?" But I feel like it's because I just love you for entirely who you are. And I appreciate all those parts of you. We're human. I love that you're not perfect. I love your imperfections, and I love everything about you. I love your perfections. So, when people talk about love not being enough, it just makes me feel like they're not giving enough love. Even if you are in a one-sided relationship and you're giving 100% of the love and you're not really necessarily getting it back, you should never stop doing it. And I get that people want to because they're like, "Well, it's not being reciprocated." But that's not what love is even about.

Nicole: Exactly. It's not about giving love so I can get it back. It's about giving it, period, end of sentence. And what better way to inspire, hopefully, the person that you're with, if they're not giving you 100% and you are, than to keep doing it. Because maybe deep down, they have something inside of them that's like, "I'm not worthy of it," or "I don't really deserve to be loved," or whatever it is. Like, eventually, you could break through to them. But again, you can't control people, so you can't expect that. But you really shouldn't ever give love to expect love.

John: No. Well, and that actually was the point that I had written down. The segue into that is because, and you see it, I mean, you see it from both women and men. You see it in our comments all the time where people say love is not enough. A lot of women will say, "I loved him so much. I took care of him. I supported him, and he still cheated on me and left me for another woman," or something like that. Or you see men say, "I took care of her. I was the man. I helped raise the children. I did all these things, and she still cheated on me or left me or divorced me." And the thing about it is that when people say love is not enough in that case, they're not, a lot of time, I'm not saying again, yeah, there are certain circumstances where hey, you're with the wrong person, and there's nothing you're going to do. But that's usually giving up way too soon. Because it's like if someone is really into basketball, right, and they're like, "I love basketball," and they want to be in the NBA, and they're like, "See, loving basketball is not enough. I watch every single basketball game. I have every single, do they have basketball sports cards? I don't know. I know every player's stats." I don't know anything about professional sports really, but let's pretend like I did.

Nicole: Me either.

John: So, they could be obsessed about the NBA, about basketball, and then they're like, "See, I'm not in the NBA. Love's not enough." And it's like, well, are you actually out there on the court? Are you practicing like Kobe, you know, waking up 2 hours before practice starts and shooting, and then beginning practice at 5:00 a.m., and then practicing for 6, 7 hours every single day? Are you doing that? Because that, when you say love's not enough in order to get into the NBA, it's the same type of thing. Is that people are loving. I don't disagree with the woman in the comment or the guy in the comment that's like, "I loved my wife, or I loved my husband, and I did all these things for them." I agree. But the level, again, talking about the levels in which that love, that becomes that unconditional love for the whole world, right, that level is so much beyond where they're stretching themselves to go. And if people realize just how much is actually expected of them, needed of them, in order to really love like that, they're probably going to find that love is enough, even in those hard cases. Right, even when it's, you can turn that other person, in many cases. You haven't got, not in all cases, but in many cases, people have stopped way short of what they think that what they're doing is actual love. But it's not love. They're still snarky, they're still snippy at their spouse. They're still acting this way. They're still not really truly empathetic with them, not truly listening, not truly caring about them. They're still treating love as a transactional thing, right, and thinking, "Well, I gave all of these things, and I didn't get back." But in the time that they were giving all these things, they were expecting the thing back. And so, it's like, that's why I understand the confusion and believe me, it's maybe it's not worth it to you, but it's a tall order. And it's not even their fault. Like, society has made love so transactional, like just seeing all of our comments and the stuff that we talk about. Like, people being like, "No, I need to save money in case he leaves," and like, "Men always cheat, and women always cheat," or "They don't care," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I get that people have experienced those things, but they have made those things the new normal. And so, people are more afraid of being in a bad situation, like getting a divorce or getting cheated on or whatever, which I understand, those are not good things, than just loving somebody and not expecting, like just loving to love them. Because the thing is that you can get divorced, you can get cheated on, like you said, like it could happen out of nowhere. So why not give your all, give all your love that you can to the person that you chose to be with? Again, it's like nobody forced you, unless you're in an arranged marriage. But even those people end up loving each other. So, you know, that's a whole different thing. But you chose this person.

John: Yeah.

Nicole: You should be able to love them the most out of anybody you've ever loved if you chose them. And why wouldn't you choose somebody like, why would you choose somebody that you don't love as much as like your parents or your child? Like, you should, the person that you chose to be with and make children with should be the person that you love the most.

John: Exactly. Like, I'm not saying, you know, I mean, it kind of goes back to, it's a good point. You have to put your spouse first. I'm not saying don't love your children. I'm not saying don't love your family. I'm not saying any of those things. They're probably going to come for me in the comments, but it's okay. But you chose, just saying, this is the one person in...

John: Your life, you chose. You didn't choose your parents, you didn't choose your children, right? They came out the way you came out, and then they came out the way that they were supposed to be, and you loved them no matter what happened. You loved your parents no matter how you were growing up, and even if you don't talk to your parents because of something that happened, you still love them. And that's what a lot of the men, or even if your children do something that upsets you, you still love them. And a lot of the men, and men specifically, I see this the most, they'll be like, "Women can't love unconditionally," or "You can't love your spouse unconditionally." Yeah, but why? Why can you love other people who disappoint you, who you're just blood-related to, unconditionally but not the person you chose, and you chose to create life with, and you chose to be with for the rest of your life, for the rest of your years? You chose to wake up next to them every single day. Why can't you love that person unconditionally?

Nicole: And I think, and this is where, and we'll get into this in the next episode for sure, right? So, you stay tuned to the next episode, you know. But I think a lot of that comes from this confusion with men of not understanding that, yeah, you can simplify by saying women love in a different way than men, and they'll never love the same way that men do. And that's true. There's a lot of, I won't name the pills, just, but of knowledge that talks about that, and there's some accuracy in it. But the problem with it is they don't understand that as a man, as a masculine in their relationship, it's your job to bloom the feminine, and that the level, like a man can love from a loyalty perspective different than a woman because he's the initiator, and he can have his mission and his thing in life going, and if the woman's not as responsive, he can still love her. But for a woman, for the relationship to be dying, for the man to not be feeding into her in love and nurturing the relationship, her love will die. It will die because it has to be watered. So, it's a little bit of a different dynamic. And I think that's where guys get this confusion, thinking, "Oh, women can't love unconditionally." It's not exactly that. That's not exactly correct. The better way to think about this is that a woman is a responder, a woman is the garden, like we've talked about in many episodes. And if you're not watering that garden, it will die. So, it's different being the gardener. If you're the gardener, and you're like, "I can just love unconditionally. I can just keep on loving." Yeah, okay, sure. But you don't need something in order for yourself to bloom like you have your mission, you have, like, guarantee you take a guy, and you take away his mission in life and his purpose in life, and his love isn't going to remain; it's going to die. You don't give a woman what she needs, relationship-wise, her love will die. Well, because women need something, be it her partner, her children, whatever, to pour her feminine qualities into. Right? Feminine qualities can be enjoyed just by the woman herself, but they're more beneficial to her and to everybody if she is pouring them onto the people that she cares about.

John: Yeah, and so that's why she needs something back from you because otherwise, you know, it feels like, well, she's not getting the extra boost from you to pour out more. So now, she doesn't, she can't create enough on her own, right, to do for everybody.

Nicole: Yeah, and so it's a complicated thing, but women are more centrally focused on love and relationships, and that's how it's been for a long time. I mean, I know now in society, it's not as much anymore, but that's the feminine element is always going to be that. Right? But that's what it is to its core. That's what it has been. Like, women back in the tribal days, we've talked about before, like, they were handling the, you know, staying at home with the children and making the things out of the meat and animals that the men brought home. They did the more manly things, you know? So, it's like, they need that from the men that they're with, right, in order to prod what they can produce. And like I said, it's not like women can't at all, but the more she gets from her man in a positive way, obviously, the more that she can pour out to everybody else. But that's also the same, too, that the more that you give out love, and you know, you shouldn't not pour love to the man that you're with or your partner, even if they aren't doing it because, like we said earlier in the episode, you can influence them, right? And it might take a while, but you should never be doing it just for you to get something back, right? And there's the loving someone and being in love with them, right? I think is different, too. And also, just the idea of because a lot of women are like, "Oh, well, I loved him so much. I gave him all of my love, and then he still did this, or he didn't." And it's like, yeah, but did you love him in the way that you thought was appropriate to love, or did you love him in the way that he wanted to be loved? Right? Did you love in such a way that it was accepting of this person, of who he is? Right? You know what I'm saying? It's like, and you could flip it both ways. You could say the same thing for men. It's just, I think a lot of women think that they've done it all and poured out all their love, and they feel that they have, but there's a misunderstanding of what that actually, the depth of what that actually is. It's not just your heart aches for a person. That's the being in love with them. You can just like you could love the NBA, but that's not doing the work of becoming the basketball player. Right? It's like, yeah, you said you loved him, and yeah, maybe you cooked and cleaned and took care of him and made sure his shirts were ironed, and that was your way of loving. But also, did you nag him? Also, did you, you know what I'm saying? It's like, were you really, really at that level of depth of love? Right? You know, everyone's responsible for themselves, but it's hard to communicate this point because there is something that it's not just what you think is enough to love someone.

Nicole: Well, I think it goes without going to a totally different topic, but it ties into people saying like, "Relationships are work," and then people think that it's the grueling thing. But the work isn't what you think it is. The work is listening to your partner and communicating and bettering yourself and helping each other be better in the ways that you help your partner be better, right? And growing together. And that is what the work is, and it shouldn't feel like a grueling job, like people classify it as work, right? But it's things that we should generally just be doing, even if we're on our own, right? Yeah, but you need those things. You need to actively be communicating and.

John: Talking because people talk about how people change so much. I mean, you know, when you're with somebody for so long, you're going to change, they're going to change, and if you have good communication and you're constantly working on yourself and you're constantly helping your partner with what they're going through, then it won't even feel like you guys are changing. You will be, but you'll be so on the same page because you're so tuned into each other because you have that communication and you have that connection. It'll be work, but it won't feel like the work that a lot of people talk about because a lot of people talk about, you know, it's like, "Oh well, something will happen, and you know this and this will happen." But when I hear things like that, I'm like, "You and I could get through whatever life throws at us." And yeah, luckily it's not good, but luckily we dealt with that early on. Yeah, wish we hadn't, but the thing is though that we did, and I knew since we had that, we could get through everything, hard things. So, you know, and I love you so much that I'm 100% in to whatever we have to face, and I know you love me so much that you're 100% in. So there's really no room for error. Like, and even if we got down low to the bottom, we're there together, and that's enough for me, and that should be enough for people. People so concerned about, like, and I get it because it's scary, but so concerned about like, "Oh, like what if we lose money or we have to do this?" And like, I get that from a logical standpoint, and I always will understand that, and I'm not invalidating that, but also at the same time, like you said, if we had to live in a cardboard box, granted it wouldn't be the most ideal situation, but I would get some happiness knowing that it's you I got to wake up next to in the cardboard box, you know? And it's us figuring it out together and it's us trying to get back to the top of the mountain. So when I hear like, "Is love really enough?" or "Is love enough?" I do think it is. But I can also see why people don't, and it's because of all this other stuff and it's because of society normalizing relationships that aren't 100% functional like they should. And it's scarcity mindset and fear mindset, and I also get where that comes from. But like we've been talking about, if you just love, and especially I'm not saying just blindly love, like you chose this person for a reason, so why not pour all your love into them and understand how to do it correctly, right? Because see, that's the other thing is because a lot of, I know I'm going to catch some hate, especially from the women when I said that, that stuff, and from some of the guys too about it. But listen, I was in a relationship for a long time, for almost 20 years, for 20 years, right? And I was, in all estimations, the guy that, aside from the end when I did the wrong things I shouldn't have done, right? I'll take full responsibility for that, never will I make excuse for that, but for the rest of that, I was the guy that was loving, doing all the right loving right, and this other person couldn't get through. But then when I met you and the relationship that we have, and I took it to the next level, I realized that even in those 20 years, I wasn't even close to what I am now, right? I had thought I was at the pinnacle of, "I'm the most loving husband that there could possibly be." I thought that because I put in my mind, sacrificed so much, done, tried so hard, right? For this person and loved them despite the things, things that were happening to me that I didn't like, that the stuff that I was being put through. But when I look at it through an honest lens now, which I learned from our relationship and from some of the feelings of that, I can honestly say that I wasn't even close to the level of love that I'm able to give now. So what I thought was top, it wasn't even close to the top, right? It's like I'm 10 times more loving than I was. I understand and empathize 10 times more. I'm 10 times more tolerant and able to give that gift than I was before. Now, it doesn't mean that, you know, like things happen for a reason, right? That was all on the path of my growth, and you were the woman for me. So I'm glad that those things happened, but I can still look back on it, and I can still recognize, "Oh hey, John, when you thought you were 10 out of 10, you were six out of 10 in terms of your ability to love and be a good husband in a relationship." You were only using what you knew, right? So that's why I'm saying that I get people watching this, and all they've ever known is a lower level, you know, they might not really get it. But what we're trying to do with this whole podcast is show you that there's a higher level, and that doesn't mean that the person you're with isn't the person for you. Maybe that is true, like I'm not going to lie to you, maybe that is true. But like all of our other episodes that we talk about, you should try, right? To better the relationship that you're in first, like really give it your all. You can go watch some of the other episodes to figure out how to do that if you're in that situation, but really just pour out the love and not expect anything back, yeah, and really give it your all and see how it goes. But it is possible, and like you said, you only really know what you can experience when you're in the place that you're in at that moment, right? But we are trying to help you at least understand it if you feel like you haven't ever had a love that is a higher level or really high level where you just love a person so much. And to our defense, you grow more when you reach this ultimate level because both you and I, before we got together, were like, "Oh, we're like, we've really worked on ourselves, and we've done a lot of personal development, and you know, we were going to keep doing it." But there was a lot of things that you and I learned and continue to learn and will continue to learn, right? In this relationship that I genuinely believe that neither of us would have learned in this life without meeting each other. And that's also why love is enough because love, like you said, when you have a love like this and you pour everything into it, and you feel the love that's being poured into you, you can pour into so many more people and so many more ways and just keep getting higher and higher to a level of love that you didn't even know was possible. Like, I used to be a very sassy, sarcastic, could definitely, people would say mean person, but especially ever since I met you, there's that part of me is like, yeah, I don't know if I'd say gone, but...

John: Pretty much gone, you know what I mean? Because we just have so much love for each other that I'm just so full with love that there's no space for that other negative, you know, kind of angry side of me. And you've also helped me heal a lot of things inside of me that's also fixed that problem. But—

Nicole: And that's where, if I can interrupt you for one second, you're fine. All these people think that because we get a lot of hate, we catch a lot of hate, yeah, especially with the book talk and stuff like that. But a lot of people are like, "Oh, there's nothing wrong with that," with a lot of things that we say. They say, "Oh, these people are crazy," because they're like, "Oh, share locations, don't read smut novels," like all the, "They're crazy," right? Because just like you said, with the sarcasm and the snarkiness or whatever, it's like, "Nothing wrong with that." So what? I love them. Like, you know, I rag on them a little bit, you know, but because you didn't, you don't get it yet, right? But at some point, like, it feels like there's nothing wrong with that. But yeah, if you want to play at this level, there's nothing wrong with that, right? But if you want to play at this level, you start to want to do that, though. Then that's when you start to see that, yeah, there is something wrong with it. There, like what I'm doing, even though most people would say it's fine, it's not fine for me. It's not fine for this relationship anymore because I understand at a deeper, you know what I'm saying? That's the thing about it.

John: That's where people un something inside of you.

Nicole: No, that's so true. Because even the times that you and I have been in an argument or disagreement or whatever, I've never said anything mean to you, really.

John: Yeah.

Nicole: And I definitely, like, old me definitely would have been throwing out some shots, you know what I mean? Like, in that woman, right? Yeah. But genuinely, there's a part of me that, because I love you so much, that even when I'm upset with you, I would never intentionally hurt you like that. And like, having been somebody that said mean things, you know, you're intentionally hurting somebody when you say those things. That's what you're trying to do because they hurt you. And so, you're going to say mean things to try to hurt them back, right? So, like, I've just reached this level that I don't want to do that to you. So, in turn, too, I don't want to do that to other people. And I was doing that to other people, and I'm so sorry to the people who I have done that to, you know? But like I said, I still would have probably been operating from a somewhat mean, occasionally place if I hadn't met you because I wouldn't have realized how powerful a love like you and I have is and how that is enough and how it can transform your whole life for the better in so many ways.

John: Yeah, and transforming for the better, if that's not enough, I don't know what is. Because there's so much more peace in my life, yeah, and happiness on a random Tuesday than I've ever had. So why would I ever tell anybody that that's not enough? And maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic, and I have always been that. But like we talked about earlier, too, like the more as time goes on, the more I realize that love is for me the reason that we're here, to love everybody. We've all been in a situation where we've done the wrong thing, or we made a mistake, or we were hurtful to somebody. And yeah, some people might do that more often than others, but we're all the same. Like, we're all humans. We all make the same mistakes in one way or another. And the way to truly help people and heal people is through love. It's not through hate. It's not through mean comments. It's not through any of those things that people who are kind of stuck in those lower levels think, you know? Because being mean, doing mean things can get you what you want sometimes, but doesn't make you feel good, and it's not usually a permanent solution. Want, but it won't make you who you want to be.

Nicole: Right, exactly. You know, you can get what you want and not be who you want to be, and it doesn't matter, right? You know? And then, but it comes full circle to, like we said at the beginning of the podcast, is that the relationship is the proving ground for that. Because as you have that depth of love in a relationship, it changes the core of who you are and opens up your heart to be able to love the world and other people more through that. And that's the key, right? Because you learn to love somebody completely for who they are, and then you're able to love people who maybe appear a little bit more harder to love, yeah, even despite those things about them. And just to again, to go back to the same thing I said before, to just lessen the blow a little bit because I know that a lot of what I was going to say is going to really smack some people because they're like, "You don't understand. I know what it's like to feel like you're loving with all your heart and to be let down time and time again," right? I know what that's like. But again, reflecting back now in where we are, I know that even at the times when I thought I was loving with all my heart, I was not because my heart is way bigger than what I thought that it was. And that's the thing, is that because I get it, I feel the pain. I know what that pain is of loving someone with all your heart, what you think is all your heart, and being let down over and over again and being hurt. But if you're really, really honest with yourself, probably, you're not. And hey, maybe some of it is timing, right? Because you got into the whole thing of, well, are you saying that you could just love anyone, and then that would be your person or whatever, right? Maybe that's true. I don't know. But I know that as far as timing, you won't be able to do it because you have to go, you have to have a path in life. And yeah, maybe the first person you ever fell in love with, if you knew all these things, and then yeah, that could have worked out, maybe. Maybe it could have, right? But you have to go through a path and learn some things. And I think whether you know, there's a lot of different ways you could slice this, but if you're with the wrong person, you won't be ready to be that person, to open your heart. And also, hey, if you're watching this podcast or listening to this podcast, maybe this is the tap on your shoulder that's going to wake you up, and now you're going to see, and now with the person you're with or the next person you're going to be with, you're actually going to be capable of that level of love because now that you understand it exists. But you just randomly, the universe just chose this specific time to tap you on the shoulder and say, "Hey, here you go," whereas you didn't have it before. So, you couldn't do it before, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not to get all crazy woo-woo here, but this is how I kind of look at the.

John: The whole thing is like everything's meant to be for, and there's a timing for things. So, it's not just a who, it's a when, and it's a combination of those two things. When are you ready, and what is the progression you have to go in your life to get there? But I just wanted to say that because I know a lot of people are going to be upset about it. There are a lot of people that have poured their heart out, right, and have loved someone with all their heart and have been hurt badly. Like I said, I'm part of that club. You've been part of that club before, in different ways. We've all been to some degree, some people more so than others. But again, just from my own perspective, looking at it honestly, was I actually at a six? I thought I was at a 10 of 10. I was at a six, but see, my opinion, yeah, and I'm not promoting divorce, right? My thing is though, could you have even was six your maximum in that situation?

Nicole: And so, I think that's why if you give it your all, like we said in one of the other episodes, for like 3 months, and you're just focused on the other person, and you just focus on giving them love, that's it, and things turn around, then yeah, that's meant for you, and you guys can make it work. But if not, I don't want to sit here and tell people that every relationship can work because, like in your circumstance, and I don't know all of it, I think six was the max you could go. And I think, like the relationships that came before with me, yeah, six or whatever was probably the max that I could go. I do think that there are some situations where walking away is the best thing because we only have one life, right? And everyone deserves to feel the love that you and I feel. Some people choose to stay at a six, and in what's comfortable, and they're okay with that, and that's their choice, right? But I never was okay at a six, right? And that was my max, and I knew, like I knew that to some extent, and that felt like, okay, this is the highest I can go.

John: Right, like you said, like you think you're at the highest. I'm not saying that I thought that I could go higher, but there was, I guess, some part of me that was like, I'm giving it my all, but it still doesn't feel like how I want it to feel, right? As far as like the love exchange or the situation, or like the love that I was pouring out still wasn't the maximum that I wanted to give to the person that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with.

Nicole: Right, so that's what I think kept me from being with some of the other people that I've been with before because there was just something, like you said, and maybe too, it was divine timing being like, no, this isn't the time for you. You weren't able to give your 10, right? Whether it be because this isn't the right person, or you're not ready yet. You know what I mean? It doesn't even matter because when the right circumstances arise, you'll know. Then it will be happy. And part of it is gaining the wisdom and understanding, which hopefully is what we're trying to do. But yeah, I agree with you 100% because hey, I'm glad that things happened the way that they did. I'm not going back and saying, oh well, I wish I would have given my 10 then because then, you know, no. I'm not thinking that at all. I'm thinking I was doing what I thought was the best at the time. Now I see that it wasn't the best, but I never would go back and say, well, I regret, no, no, because that's the path I had to come up. Had I not come up that path, then I would have lost out on you. And had I somehow avoided that path and found you, I would have lost out on this because I wouldn't have been purified by that fire to get to the point to, I would have made the mistakes that could have hurt us and destroyed us, right? That I had to learn. So, it's all kind of divine timing. I do think there is, you'll know, an element you'll know. Like, I think people, even who are being like, I gave it my all, their intuition or something inside of them will either be like, yes, you did, or no, you could have done more. And that's why too, I don't want to sit here and tell people to never leave the person they're with because I don't believe in that. I believe that, you know, deep down, you know what is right. Deep down, you know if the relationship you're in can blossom into what we're talking about and has that potential, or it doesn't. And again, you're free to make that choice. You're free to stay in what's comfortable, even if it's not the level 10 love that you want, but you also do have a choice. And I get that it's hard going through divorce or breakup or any of those things, but I do believe that everybody, every single person should and could have the love that you and I have.

John: Yeah, and that it is possible. And I get that we might sound crazy talking about this all the time, and people are waiting for us to be like, oh, we're not together anymore, but you're going to be waiting for a long time because we come on here and we just pour out our hearts for each other and for all the lessons and things that we've learned in love and in relationships so that we can help everybody get to this level. That's what we want because that's the thing that's going to heal the world without getting too like, Nicole for president. But the thing that's really going to heal the world is the love, like going back to love, and loving everybody despite their differences, despite, you know, the things, the mistakes that they've made, or whatever. And the more people in a relationship like you and I, the more love, like I said, that they can give to everyone around them.

Nicole: Exactly, and the more love and positivity that they can spread to the world. So, that's why I feel like this is such a big deal.

John: Yeah, and love is enough, it is, in my opinion.

Nicole: I agree. There was one other thing I was going to say about it.

John: You were going to say that I ate 12 grapes under the table at New Year's.

Nicole: That's true, to make so that everyone will know that love is enough, so everyone will hear this message. I can't remember what I was going to say.

John: Oh, I know what I was going to say. So, the message really, because I agree with what you're saying, is that yeah, that doesn't mean that you're just going to stick it out if it's not the right, you know, obviously marriage vows and whatnot, you know. But I think that the thing for people to examine from this is to say, okay, you think you're giving it your all, but just take an honest look. Are you really? Like, are you giving it your all by your standards of judgment, or by the actual?

John: True unconditional love is, and so maybe you take that step and you stretch it out and try to work on becoming at that level. And hey, I think if you're not with the right person, it's going to be hard for you to do it right. But if you're pushing it as hard as you can and you've taken this honest look, and then you're still not happy, and it doesn't, then now, now it's time to reconsider, just like we've talked about before. But probably 99% of people that think they're giving it their all, that's my main message, you're not. You're not even close. And so if you just take that self-examination and figure that out, then that's hey, then we've done our job, you know. And at the end, you make your decision, it's fine, but just recognize that you might be falling a lot more short than you think you are.

Nicole: Yeah, makes sense. So, alright, should we do our end segment? Do we have a...

John: Yeah, it's your turn because my topic, I mean, it's really hard because we don't really have any. I mean, we were driving back, I guess that's what we were driving back from the airport in the rental car, yeah, and you wanted a McDouble, or I don't know, I don't even eat McDonald's. I was looking for small fries and sweet tea.

Nicole: And so I ordered the meal, and then I guess you're like, no, I don't want the meal. I just didn't want like a big fry or drink. I had it handled. I got because I just didn't want to spend the extra money on buying them, you know, piecemeal when I get what you want.

John: It was a miscommunication.

Nicole: Yeah, it was a miscommunication. But then just the way that you responded to that kind of set me a little now was like, I mean, I didn't even say anything. I was just little. I could tell you were upset.

John: I was upset. That was true because I was like, oh, why did you respond that way, you know? But it wasn't, I mean, that's like we're really pulling at straws here because we, the last week, we've been together, you know, 100% of the time or close to 100% of the time. And I mean, like literally, like we're saying in the episode, is like the amount of conflict that we have, or even snip at each other, we don't even do that. If people saw the McDonald thing in real life, they'd be like, this is your guys's ins for the day. It was so small compared to our normal interactions that our daughter was crying last night and was like, are you guys going to get a divorce? And I was like, it will never happen. And we were not yelling, we were not screaming. It lasted maybe 4 minutes of calm words of just being like, did I say something that offended you? And you were like, you didn't upset how you respond.

Nicole: Oh yeah, exactly. I was like, I'm literally The Exchange, and then literally five minutes later, we're just talking, and everything truly is fine. But the reason why I say that is just like I said, If people could follow us around with a camera because even our daughter, you know, is like, she's like any because we're so in unison almost all the time that that small disruption, she was like, what the heck, what is happening?

John: Yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to toot our own horn, but like, I'm just saying, it's like we know what we're talking about.

Nicole: Yeah, and that's why we're here. We're going to do a documentary, and they're going to follow us around with the "Better Than Perfect" documentary.

John: That's right. So, okay, yeah. So, that's it. Follow us, you know, you know the drill. Leave us a review, banana fingers, fight the good fight with us, and email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com.

Nicole: Yeah, we'll see you next episode. It's going to be on "Women Are Supposed to Be Difficult."

John: Yes, we are. We find no way.