John: Many times, a woman is not going to necessarily see a problem with hanging out with guys, with going out to the nightclub to dance with her friends, and the guy is going to have to be the one that's in the position to say this is not something that we should be doing in our relationship. It's not controlling or insecure to set a boundary and to say what you do not like or what you do like and what you want, and then to choose whether you're going to be with someone or not. Many women will still call it controlling, but then the guy, they're not the woman for you. Well, the guy has to be secure enough to not allow that to affect him, well, and to understand a boundary versus being actual controlling. Beyond the, we discover through our flaws, we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find all right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole: I'm unstoppable now. I'm on fire. I'm like will he ever forget the Grow Again? Probably not because we got it down pretty good. I got it down now. It's like it's part of me now. It's ingrained.

John: Well, yeah. I brag about it, and then next week it'll be like, uh, welcome to the brother, yeah, it'll be like totally messed up. But yeah, so if we look very similar to the last episode because we're doing two episodes because we will be traveling.

Nicole: Yeah, to the Maldives. The Maldives. I don't know what it's. I just give both pronunciations because Dees, I think it's males.

John: Yeah, I think, yeah, it is unless you're Australian, and then it's the Maldives. Is that how they say it? I mean, I think there's something. I think American people also mispronounce it like that. Think Australians, are we mispronouncing it? I'm trying to think like what is a word you're trying to do Australian.

Nicole: Accent. Nar, I've got to. I've got to learn an English accent so that I can be in a movie. So, Cottage Chase and Skittles.

John: Yeah, that's all you need to know. But that's like the cocky. Oh, you're not supposed to have that. I think May, water, water, then you have to pronounce your T's. But I can do a Scottish accent, right? I haven't got anything for you, so just go away.

Nicole: But can you do anything else?

John: No, yeah. I just, it was in a video game, so I learned how to say, I haven't got anything for you, so just go away. Your throat is working hard. You even like, you position yourself. You're like, I don't, I can't even. I can't even, but it's like all in your throat. I can tell because you can like, yeah, see it when you do it. But I mean, if I, I think if I worked on a Scot accent since I have some of it, I could do it. I could just have to work.

Nicole: I think so. But yeah, we're going to hopefully make a video or so while we're traveling, record a but an episode, yeah, our home-brewed episodes of weird camera angles from our cell phone, you know, not a professional this time than we did last time, but it wasn't bad.

John: No, it worked out. So, all right, so should we jump into the topic, or do you want to talk about my chicken Fila sandwich?

Nicole: With a chicken Fila sandwi. You called it chicken filet because that's what I call it, but it's Chick-fil-A.

John: Oh, well, you know chick, you know chick seems like such a derogatory term to use, you know. So, chicken is the proper term, not chick.

Nicole: All right, don't call her a chick, call her a chicken.

John: Yeah, that's a way to her heart. No, unless you want to still talk about the chicken F sandwich.

Nicole: Just, I mean, it's just they gave me a chicken sandwich with no chicken on it. I mean, that's so, but whatever.

John: I've gotten. He also ordered guacamole from Chick-fil-A, and I was like, I don't think anyone has ever ordered guacamole from Chick-fil-A, but they gave me the guac.

Nicole: Okay, if you check a box that says, see now you got me start. Look, if you check a box, you want. If you check a box on a sandwich, and it's like add guacamole on it. Okay, now look, if I said hot sauce and they gave me a packet of hot sauce, I would be disappointed, unexpected. Okay, but if you check a box that says guacamole and a sandwich, and they give you a package of guacamole, and they didn't put on the sandwich for you, and you got to open the thing and you got to smear it, get it all over your hands to try and put on the sandwich.

Nicole: Maybe they didn't know how much guac you wanted.

John: While I'm on the subject, also the coffee at Chick-fil-A, the most ridiculous damn thing in the world. Why do they even serve coffee? Because they, if you say that is not Chick-fil-A coffee, by the way.

Nicole: No, it's not.

John: But if I, if I say I want Splenda and cream in my coffee, they hand you a package of Splenda and cream to put in your own coffee in the Drive-Thru. You're driving a car. If I wanted to put my own Splenda and coffee and creamer in my coffee, I would have just made it at home. I wouldn't have gone all the way through the drive-thru in order for someone to give it to me so that while I'm trying to drive, I try to put it into my coffee and mix it up. So, and that's the end of the first-world problem segment.

Nicole: Chick-fil-A, they're just, they're so friendly, you know what I mean? It's, does that make you even more mad? Everyone's like a good little Christian boy and girl. They're, you know, just, and then it, and then they just, just screw it up so bad. It's like, like I want to hate them, but I can't because I love them, you know what I'm saying? It's like they're so lovable, but I want to hate them.

John: I mean, like I could, I didn't even call up Chick-fil-A and complain about my chicken sandwich because I'm like, there's just going to be some nice person, and they're going to be like, how are you doing today, sir? Uh, oh, I'm so sorry. And I, I just like, I, I want, I, you want somebody to be mad at. You want to fight with somebody.

Nicole: Fight them. You need to work on your unconditional love for everyone, John. That's the problem.

John: I have a four-year-old is back there and forgot to put the chicken in. That's the problem. I can't because I, I, you know, they're just too lovable. They're so cute at Chick-fil-A, you know.

Nicole: Well, you need to do that with everybody.

John: Well, and maybe your hang, your anger will dissipate.

Nicole: I don't have anger.

John: Right. I don't have. Rewind the clip. When have you seen me get angry, like really legitimately angry?

Nicole: That what you just sarc, that's, that's the extent.

John: Right. You don't get angry at just for show.

Nicole: But oh, is it? It wasn't for show last night at the.

John: Dinner table, that was... I'm an actor all the time. That was my theatrics, okay?

Nicole: All right, all right. Well, let's get into the topic.

John: You got it all out now? Do you feel better?

Nicole: No, I mean, but tomorrow... No, like tomorrow, two business days. Well, I guess the next time we go to Chick-fil-A, I think it might trigger me again, though. But you know, we'll see. I don't want to never go to Chick-fil-A again.

John: All right, fine. It's gone. I'll put it into a closet where you know, just lock all the stuff I don't ever want to deal with ever again in there. And Chick-fil-A Sandwich, a good idea?

Nicole: It's not a good idea. Yeah, you'll be like all upset, and I'm like, "Where did this come from?" You're like, "Chick-fil-A, 20 years ago, remember that time they didn't put chicken on my chicken sandwich? I never emotionally recovered from that." But that's why you got to air it out, you know, get it out of your...

John: Yeah, but you don't feel better, so that's why I'm concerned.

Nicole: I didn't feel bad to start with. I ate my sandwich, and you know, just like with no chicken on it, but you had an extra one. Luckily, I ordered a naked chicken that had... But you know, the thing is about that is, I was gonna be bad, and I was like, normally I get the grilled chicken, and this time I was like, I'm going to get the spicy fried chicken, and they were like, "No, you don't need..." They gave me the grilled chicken wrapped in lettuce, which I had to put into where the spicy fried chicken should have been. They saw you pull up, and they were like, "He has muscles. He doesn't want this Fried Chicken." Then they just threw it out of the chicken sandwich. They were like, "We can't give him Fried Chicken, mess up his game."

John: Maybe it was someone from my YouTube. Maybe they were like, "That's Bulldog Mindset. What is he doing?"

Nicole: No, yes. It actually helped you.

John: Yeah, see, it's all about how you reframe the situation. Thank you. I appreciate it. Now, I'm glad they did that for me. Have to reframe it. So, see, we need to learn our own lessons a lot of the time, you know. We're human.

Nicole: All right, it's my topic today. Like, we're going to... This is a Chick-fil-A episode.

John: It's your episode right now. You're like, "It's my topic," like you didn't just vent about Chick-fil-A for 10 minutes.

Nicole: I mean, last time, the beginning segment became the whole thing, so you know, we don't want to call this one the Chick-fil-A... Like, I don't have any... What does this have to do with relationships? This is all about Chick-fil-A.

John: Chicken fil-A, proper name. So, all right. Okay, the topic is, are you controlling or dominant? And the subtopic is, are you controlling and insecure or dominant and insecure? Okay, right. And so, I don't think this is a question for me.

Nicole: No, it's not. It's for men, basically. I mean, I guess I didn't even think about how it could apply to women, but great.

John: Well, because we actually got an email, which I guess I could read. It's a little bit long, but...

Nicole: Before I read the email, essentially, the idea is that I give a lot of advice. We give a lot of advice to guys in terms of, you know, don't accept that a woman is going to go out to a nightclub until 2 a.m., don't accept that she's going to talk to her ex-boyfriend and be friends with them or hang around guys, and go on girls' trips, and all this stuff, right? And I'm seeing this from the context of, you know, I coach men, and so this is what I deal with all the time. And then a lot of guys are like, they're confused by that, right? Some of them agree, some of them try to implement it, and they're like, "She just told me to kick rocks," right? And it's like, "I thought that was supposed to be like I was supposed to do that." And other guys are like, "Oh, I would never say that to her because she's not going to agree to any of those things," right? Or, you know, and so it's like, but then there's other guys that implement the advice, and they're like, "Oh, wow, you know, she was upset, and then now she respects me even more because I set boundaries in the relationship," right? And so it's like, you can say the same thing, but in one way that you say it and your mannerisms, you can come across as controlling because it's coming from a place of insecurity, and in another way, you can come across as dominant, I would say, and secure, right? Because it's coming from a different place, right? And so that's what the topic is. What's the difference? Why does it matter? How does it come across? Does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah, I'm just like, I don't know what to say, but it makes sense.

John: Well, you want me to read the email? Let me do that.

Nicole: So, is that the one we already read, or is this a new one?

John: This is a new one. We always... You're like, "Let me read the email that we read that John read." We're... Me and the viewers are learning at the same time.

Nicole: No, no. We've... Me and you have read it.

John: Oh, I thought you said it was a new one.

Nicole: It's a new one for the viewers.

John: For the podcast, actually. It was... I think it was a TikTok message, right? Or, I mean, it came in as an email on the "Better Than Perfect," but the TikTok, I think, has updated.

Nicole: I got it. I got it. Okay, that's a different one. This one was... I almost said his name. That would have been... Would have been good. We don't... This anonymous person, he said, "Hey, hope your Sunday is going well. I would like some guidance, please. 2 and a half months ago, I broke up with my girlfriend from a 2-year relationship. I didn't feel loved at all during the relationship. 2 days later, after the breakup, a mutual friend on Facebook added me, and we started to talk a lot and hit it off. We finally met at the gym to work out as friends, and then unexpectedly fell for each other hard. We've been... We'd be together majority of the time before she goes to work for the police department during the day or when she wakes up, she'd go to the gym before night shift. She introduced me to her family and friends, and I noticed this one friend of hers would always be FaceTiming her every time I'd be around her or while she's on her way home from work. She'd be all lovey on me, kissing me, telling me we have to have a good day at work during the day, decorating the front of the house with planets for stuff for the holidays, making it at her home." I don't know if he meant plants or actually planets. I mean, it's pretty cool she's decorating with planets, but I don't know what holiday you decorate with planets for.

Nicole: Earth Day.

John: Oh, that's true. Earth Day. Maybe she's decorating for Earth Day.

John: In June though, so oh but it could have been, yeah, it could have been around Earth Day, which is like in April, isn't it? Or May? I don't know, let's not go down that. It's giving Chick-fil-A energy right now. Alright, on May 27th, Tetris lover, are you happy? Alright, on May 27th, we all were having fun at the pool and having food. She has past trauma from a relationship, her marriage was trolling, and she wasn't allowed to drink.

John: To make a long story short, her friend that's always FaceTiming her was at the party, and I knew this guy was a dude. He handed her a Twisted Tea after she had like five and tried to give her a sixth one. Out of concern, I said to her, "Hey, please be careful." When she drinks, it's like she's dead weight and can't move unless I hold her and walk her to the bed. This guy friend would always give me weird vibes. Well, her and I are broken up, and she hasn't been texting me much or calling me. Do you think it's worth trying to fix the relationship? I've tried every way I could think of to fix it, but she's extremely short with me on the phone, and I've been giving her space. When she texted me, it's only to get her stuff at my house. She told me I've molded my life around her and am controlling because I told her to be careful while drinking. That's a lot, but yeah, but you get where I mean the episode comes from this because this is the confusion that a lot of men face, right? They're like, okay, I'm going to say something, and women use this a lot of times to manipulate men as they say you're controlling or you're insecure.

Nicole: Yeah, I think her thing though is she probably was with somebody that was actually controlling, and now she's trying to go like the complete opposite, you know? Like anything might trigger her to think that it's controlling, or she might be like, "Oh, he's going to turn into how that guy was." So at least he knows that she has trauma from a previous relationship. But I don't think the guy who wrote you the email did anything wrong by being like, "Hey, watch out," you know, for what you're doing. But I get where now he's in a tough place of like, okay, how does he come off as having boundaries to this woman that has been with a controlling man and is probably going to be easily triggered? And is that even possible to have with her because that's probably something she needs to heal on her own, right? That he might not even be able to do depending on where she's at with healing that part of her. Because I can understand her trauma, where sure, she might be afraid that that's going to happen to her again. But this guy doesn't seem like he gives off that sort of energy. We don't know the full story, but based on how he phrased what he did in the email, it doesn't seem like he's a controlling type of person. He was just trying to look out for her and not have her get into a situation where she doesn't really have control of herself, right? So it's kind of difficult. That is the same person, and I think on TikTok, he sent, yeah, he sent on TikTok too.

Nicole: So another update though, which is another hint to his personality because he sent it to us, email, he sent it on TikTok. I think he is controlling.

John: You think so?

Nicole: And I'll tell you why. Look, because I think it's the best way to be controlling. The worst thing about this, and because it reeks from insecurity, because controlling comes from insecurity, is to emotionally manipulate people into doing what you want, right? Whereas being dominant and secure comes from a place of telling people what you don't like or you don't want and setting clear boundaries. Part of it is this, look, he describes what happened, right? Already before he even went to this party, this girl that he's seeing, that he's dating, she's coming over to his house and decorating. So they're in a relationship, right? It's not just casual dating at this point. He said they broke up, so they're obviously in a relationship. He doesn't have any problem, or he has a problem with it, but he's not saying he has a problem with this guy friend that she's FaceTiming all the time, and while he's around. So already at this point, look, if you're dating a girl and while she's with you, she's FaceTiming a guy friend of hers, that's extremely rude and disrespectful. Even just FaceTiming anyone while you're hanging out, that's not cool. It's rude, it's disrespectful, right? And so he didn't say anything about that. He didn't say, "Hey, that's not cool," or "I don't like that." You know, I tell guys to say, "I don't like that," but he didn't say anything, right? And then, you know, and I'm sure other things have happened. Then he gets to the pool party, this dude is at the pool party, right? Okay, look, if I was hanging out, let's say I was a single guy and one of my friends was there and had a girlfriend or whatever, or I guess it's a, or I knew a girl there, you know what I mean, and I kind of friends with her, I would not, if she was there with a guy she was dating, I would stay away from the two of them. I'm not going to go hang out and be a weirdo. But here's the thing too though, that kind of seems secretive even though you're not coming off that way. If I was the guy in the situation and that's my girlfriend, and you're not like, you're friends with her but now you're not going to talk to her in front of me, I'd be like, that's even weirder. I'm not going to go hang around and give her alcohol and be like, that would be, I would expect to get my block knocked off, you know what I mean? Some guy's dating a girl and you're going up and just like hanging out with her and giving her alcohol, right? So he's allowing that to happen as well, which is complete disrespect. And the fact that she allows it to happen is completely disrespectful, right? You're hanging, you're with your boyfriend or a guy you're dating, and you're taking drinks from this other dude that's supposedly your friend, like it's just not cool, right? So he's allowed all these things to happen, right? And then he tells her because he's afraid to offend her, "Please be careful," you know. I know it seems like a stretch to call that controlling, but it seems more like nice guy energy.

John: It is, but nice guy energy is where controlling comes from because I guarantee you, you move that relationship two or three years down the line, right now, his insecurity is making it where he's trying to control all the aspects of her life to make sure that he doesn't get any that he doesn't like, instead of actually being direct. But even though he's not doing any actions to actually do the controlling part, it's the.

John: Insecurity, well, because it's like it carries when you say there are certain things that you say to someone that is an indirect way of indicating that it's passive-aggressive, right? Because it's like, oh, and he's harboring resentment for her for these things that he's not talking about.

Nicole: Exactly, and that puts that emotional load on the person. It's like, if I do this, they're going to be upset with me. That's controlling. When you think, if I do this, they're going to be upset with me, and that's why I shouldn't do it. That's controlling because you're controlling yourself, but it's really to get the outcome that you want.

John: Exactly, and so, whereas if he changed his whole demeanor instead, when he first started dating this girl, if she's FaceTiming some guy friend and he's like, "Hey, who's that guy?" and she's like, "Oh, it's just a friend of mine," it's like, "Well, do you think that you should be FaceTiming him while we're together on a date? I don't really like that. I kind of find that rude," you know what I mean? If he said that, she might have gotten pissed at him at first, but she probably would have had a lot more respect for him.

Nicole: Right, and then by the time he gets to the pool party, I mean, obviously, some other things should have been put to a stop before then. If he says, and even just in that situation, if he's at the pool party and instead of saying, "Be careful," if he sees her having too much alcohol and he says, "Oh, what are you doing there? I don't like that. I don't really want to be around someone that's getting totally wasted. That's not cool," you know what I mean? Like, if he said, "I don't like that level of drinking," again, that's not telling someone what to do; it's saying what you don't like. That comes from security. It comes from a dominant place as opposed to an insecure place. Then she probably would have still been upset, but she would have respected him, and he would have had a chance. Maybe that would have ended that day. In fact, he should have left at that point. He was like, "Okay, you could do what you want to do, but if you're going to get sloppy drunk, I'm not going to be here." Boom, he's gone. Later on, she talks to him, and now she has respect for him because this guy has boundaries, he has respect for himself, he's not going to allow himself to be disrespected.

John: Right, so those, that same kind of thing comes across in a much more secure way as opposed to the weak, nice guy way that ends up becoming insecure. And would you say the other guy that she was with was controlling for telling her not to drink alcohol?

Nicole: We don't know what the situation, I mean, if she told, okay, well, let's just take it at what he said, right, which, you know, I'm not saying that's the truth, but he, she was not allowed to drink alcohol.

John: Yeah, that's controlling, if that's right. If I say, "Look, if I say, 'Hey, I'm not going to date someone who drinks alcohol,' that's just, you know, just like I'm not going to date someone who smokes cigarettes, sorry, I'm just, you know, it's not going to, I'm not going to do it," right? Like, you can do it if you want to, but I just want you to know, you know, or if you want to see me casually, that's fine, but I'm not going to get in a serious relationship with someone who, I'm not going to get in a serious relationship with someone who goes out to nightclubs, you know, it's just, I'm not going to get a serious relationship with someone who talks to their exes, you know, sorry, it's just not my thing.

Nicole: Yeah, and that's a lot easier to do in the beginning. He's now in a relationship, is the thing, right? And now it's harder to do because it's easier to, like you just said, right, establish those boundaries from the very beginning, and then you don't really have to have as many boundary conversations because you've kind of laid it all out there in the very beginning. And if they chose to stay, then they're going to do those things.

John: Right, but yeah, I see where you're coming from. It's, you definitely have to explain it, and you've done a good job explaining it because it would be hard for people to understand that by him not really doing anything, he's still being controlling, but it's more so he's controlling his actions to get what he wants from her by people-pleasing.

Nicole: Right, yeah, because you have to think about where does this come from, and that's why it's the insecurity versus security. How does an insecure person behave in order to get people to do things that don't threaten them or do what they want versus how does a secure person behave in order to get people to do things, or not, or they don't need them to do the things? Instead, they're thinking, "I don't necessarily want to be with someone or be in this environment if someone's going to do this thing," right? And they're okay with letting that go because they're not trying to make the person into what they want. They accept people because it's like the line, right? So if you say like, "I don't date people who smoke cigarettes," that's your line. You're not changing this person, right? If they want to change, then that's fine, right? But you believe that that is one of your boundaries that you have, right? And what type of partner you want to have, and you're not trying to enforce that onto the person you're talking to.

John: Right, if they're like, "No, I'm going to still smoke," you're perfectly okay being like, "You're entitled to that," and moving on. Whereas if it was the opposite, and someone was like, "Well, no, I'm going to smoke," then they would be like, "No, you have to stop because I just told you that I don't like it."

Nicole: Exactly, exactly, exactly. You're trying to influence the person rather than accepting what it actually is.

John: Yeah, exactly. And the person can change their mind, but that person made it on their own.

Nicole: Exactly, because they're like, "I value this relationship or this person more than I value this other behavior or thing," right? And so, it's also not a beneficial thing, like smoking is not beneficial to you, you know, drinking all the time is not beneficial to you. So, it's different if they're like, "You, I don't even know what, like, weirdly, uh, if they were like, 'You have to stop exercising or something.' I don't want to date somebody that exercises." That would be really weird. It's just, it's just rude in general just to get shitfaced in front of someone in general, like, it's like, and especially when you, well, because you're not responsible, or you can't control your body at that, like, that's just disrespectful, period, right, you know?

John: So, but that's a different point, you know. But I think what it comes down to is a lot of times, guys face this issue, right, is that because they've heard the advice from us where a guy will be like, "Alright, so if I'm dating a girl in a serious relationship, she shouldn't have guy friends that she hangs out with, right?" And that's, and they're like, "So if I tell her, 'You can't have guy friends.'"

MH: The woman's like, "That's controlling," and it is because you can't be like, "You can't have guy friends." That's controlling because it comes from an insecure place. I don't think they do it the way that will get them the most understanding. The answer really is not to say, "You can't have guy friends." It's to say, "I don't like dating someone who hangs out with guys. It doesn't make me feel very good, and I don't appreciate that." I would say they'd have even better success if they approached it as, "Hey, we're in a serious relationship, or we're at that level where we are about to be exclusive or in an official relationship, and we need to talk about the respect of our relationship. Out of respect for you, I would not have female friends and would not hang out with them with you not around. I wouldn't do this, and I expect the same from the person that I'm with in return." If you talk about what you're going to do, I agree.

MH: And then it's the same thing that you're asking somebody else. If they don't agree to that, you know that person's not for you because you just said it in the best possible way that you could. But I don't know many women that would hear a man say, "I'm not going to follow random girls on Instagram and like their pictures, and I'm not going to hang out with girlfriends without you around, and I'm not going to go out and party," and be like, "I don't want that." Like, that's also what women want. And that's the whole thing too. If you start by telling somebody how you are going to do the same thing that you expect them to do, they will respect you and the whole conversation and understand better from the very beginning. I think that's true. It's again a matter of the phrasing, and the phrasing is important for sure, and what the expectation is. So, it's like, look, this conversation should have happened when you first became exclusive, but if you didn't, you can still have the conversation, but you have to make that your boundary. But you start with a light boundary, which is, "I don't like this." Saying, "I'm not doing this. There's a reason why I'm not doing it because I have respect for you. I'm not going to hang out with a girl." I agree. You can say your part of it, that I'm not, I don't have friends that are female. I don't hang around, you know, because too, you have to think about, because I bring that up because you have to think about women, especially women who are going to be afraid of controlling men. If she hears him talk about what he's going to do, and it's the same thing that he's about to draw a boundary of her, it does not come off as controlling because you're talking about what you're going to do and how that shows the respect for her. And now you're like, "And I'm having the boundary of that is what I don't like, like you hanging out with these guys, and I would like the same respect back." So, if we're going to continue to be in a relationship, that's what I expect from my partner.

MH: And it can even be lighter, as you know, if that's, if you're not okay with that, then I might have to think about whether I want to be in this relationship. That's a light way. So, because you never want to be an ultimatum or like because then it starts to be more controlling when you're like, "If you don't do this," you know, ultimately, a boundary says not what the other person needs to do; it's what you're going to do. And so, it's up to them. They can do whatever they want to do. You're expressing, "Look, you can do whatever you want to do. However, if you do these things, this is what I'm going to do." And it has to come across in a non-angry, non-insulted way, and a very secure way, meaning that I am making this choice. I'm setting this boundary not because I'm trying to force you to do the thing that I want you to do but because I have enough respect for myself that I don't want to be around someone who does these things or is, I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who's doing those things. And I'm willing to lose you or suffer the loss because I have that much respect for myself. And that's the thing, like when you're a man and you're so trying to not lose the girl because you don't want to upset her, that's when you become controlling because you're trying to protect yourself at her expense, as opposed to having respect for yourself and saying, "This is the man that I am. This is what I believe. This is how the conditions in which I will allow someone to be in my life because this is my standards. This is the relationship that I'm looking for." And that's again, the man has to lead the relationship. He has to set those standards for the relationships. That's why also I say it from this perspective, in the sense that many times a woman is not going to necessarily see a problem with hanging out with guys. She's a lot of times not going to see a problem with going out to the nightclub to dance with her friends or whatever or doing girls' trips or those things that may be destructive to the relationship. And the guy is going to have to be the one that's in the position to say, "This is not something that we should be doing in our relationship." That's good verbiage right there, "we." That also doesn't come off as controlling, although many women will still call it controlling. But then, the guy, they're not the women for you. Well, the guy has to be secure enough to not allow that to affect him. Well, and to understand a boundary versus being actual controlling. When you know that you're not being controlling, it doesn't affect you when people say stuff like that. But when you're not sure, which is why I wanted to make this episode, then when a woman says, "Hey, that's controlling and insecure," you're like, "Well, is it? I mean, a lot of people are saying that's controlling and insecure," because that's what I get a lot from a lot of guys. I'm like, "No, it's not controlling and insecure to set a boundary and to say what you do not like or what you do like and what you want, and then to choose whether you're going to be with someone or not based on that."

MH: I want to add that I saw something on King and Michelle's podcast. Go check them out, by the way. They were talking about how they saw an influencer guy or something talking about how he made a list of what he wants in his partner. And then I think he was at his therapist, had him do it or something, and then the therapist was like, "Well, do you check all these boxes off?" And he was like, "No." And so, that, I feel like, is so important as a...

Woman: Because from a woman's perspective, if a man is asking you to do something that he doesn't plan to do, that's going to instantly be controlling. You can't tell a woman, "You can't go on girls' trips, you can't go out to the bars and party, you can't do this," and then you as a man go out and do them.

Man: Yeah, I agree. That is controlling, even if that's a boundary. Even if you're like, "I have a boundary where the woman I'm in a relationship with doesn't do these things," and she's like, "Okay, well, but are you going to do these things?" and he's like, "Yeah," then that's still controlling.

Woman: Well, I disagree. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily controlling. It's somewhat hypocritical, but if that's what you want and that's what you decide, and what woman is going to want a man that can do whatever he wants? As long as you're like, "Look, this is what I want," and some people are okay with that. I disagree with the open-ended relationships, the one-sided open-ended relationship, but some people want that.

Man: It's mostly men who want that.

Woman: I agree. There are some, but the point is, if you are not trying to force someone and you're like, "This is who I am, this is what I like, and this is what I want," and you want to be able to go and party but don't want to be in a relationship with someone that does, if you're giving the option and not creating emotional manipulation and they agree to it, then it's not really controlling because they had the option. It's like someone taking a bad deal is their fault if they're not tricked into a bad deal.

Man: Yeah, it just still doesn't feel right. I still think that you shouldn't be hypocritical with the boundaries that you're setting up. That's also being like, "I don't want to date a person that drinks so much," but then you drink all the time. It's not really fair. Yes, I understand what you're saying, and you're right, as long as it is an actual boundary and that person chooses that, even though it's not the best idea, I get that, and you are right. But I think it is better, especially with men who struggle with being afraid that they're coming off as controlling. If you are doing what you're asking, following the same rules of the relationship and of your life, then a person is going to more easily be able to jump in or change their mind about something like that because you are leading by example.

Woman: Exactly. And the good thing about that too is because one of the immediate responses you're going to get when you tell someone, "Hey, I'm not really comfortable with you going out with your girlfriends to drink at a night club," is they're going to say, "I don't care if you do it." That's the defense. And the only way you can, if you already know that that might be the answer and you say, "Hey, out of respect for you, I don't do this," and then you say what you don't like, then if they say, "Well, I don't care if you do it," it sounds bad on their part. It's hard for them to say that at that point because it's like, well, you can give me permission to it, but it doesn't change that that is an answer of when you should walk away.

Man: Oh yeah, of course. That is the answer that you're looking for because that doesn't line up with somebody that would do something like that, and so that means that you have to walk away from that person. And that's the hardest part of boundaries, you actually have to walk away.

Woman: You have to be willing to walk away, and it can't just be like threatening it, like, "Oh, are you sure that's your answer? Do you want to change your answer because that means we're not going to be together?" No, like, if I said that and somebody was like, "Well, you can go out," like if when you and I first started dating, if I was like, "Hey, I don't want you going out to the bars and stuff without me," that is the type of relationship that I'm expecting. You can do that if you want. I said it wrong, in the control, yeah, the relationship I want to be in does not involve somebody who's going out to bars. I don't want to do that myself, and you were like, "Well, I don't care if you go out to bars," I'd be like, "No, this isn't the right relationship." I would let you go and do it, but I would walk away. Okay, that's like, you don't, because if you go further with somebody who's like, "Well, you could do it," now you're getting into, are you persuading that person? Do they really want to go out and do it? And they're kind of defending going out, which is not really somebody who seems ready to settle down with somebody.

Man: But sometimes there is some leadership that needs to be done, right? Because a lot of women, they don't want to hear anything that a guy tells them that they "can't do," and I know that's not what's happening in this case, but a lot of women will react to any kind of "Don't tell me what to do," "Don't tell me what I should wear," "Don't tell me," unhealed trauma. But they can be healed by the right guy having actual boundaries and standing firm on that and saying, "Okay, you know, I'm just telling you what I don't like and what I want in a relationship, and you can do whatever you want to do," and then let her and see what she does. Many times, if you're patient as a man, she will come back to you and she'll say, "I thought about it, and I don't actually want to do this."

Woman: Right, right. And I'm speaking about this from experience with guys that have said that's what they've done, and the women came back and gave a positive response and said, "Hey, I like that you have boundaries and that you're, you know, because it's a secure way." It creates safety and stability. A woman does want a man to set boundaries. Any person wants a person to know that they care enough about them that they actually care. That's what boundaries are. They get confused. They think boundaries confine the relationship, but it's actually giving somebody understanding into how to better your relationship.

Man: And there are some parallels, and I'm reluctant to say this, but there are some parallels between parenting and being a man in...

John: A relationship, in the sense that, look, if you say to a child, "You can do whatever you want," that child does not feel loved. If you tell a woman, "You can do whatever you want," that woman does not feel loved. You have to have some kind of boundaries, some kind of standards, right? Because being a man, it's really about being a man.

John: Whether you're in the context of a relationship just with a woman or being a man, being the father in a family, it's still the same role. And that's why there's a parallel, not because you should treat a woman like a child. That's not what I'm saying at all. Just want to be clear on that. But being a man, being a father figure, being the, for lack of a better word, patriarch of the family, it means that you have certain ways that you act, and that you create safety for everybody, you create boundaries for everybody. That's your responsibility. It's not that a woman can't set boundaries; of course, she should have her own boundaries. But you create the big boundaries that lead to being the leader.

John: And that's why I talk about this from a guy's perspective. A woman could also have this exact thing between being controlling or being dominant or secure in the way, and she can set her boundaries. But a man, many times, needs to lead the relationship and set these proper boundaries for the relationship and needs to be standing firm on this.

John: Because sometimes he does need to educate and teach a little bit about this because a woman might not see that there's anything wrong with these things. But a wise man that has some experience would say, "Okay, yeah, this is dangerous territory for the relationship," and he should be leading by example 100%. But men get tripped up in this because they're too insecure, and they're afraid of losing the girl, and they're afraid of rocking the boat. So, they're trying so hard to not be controlling that they actually do come across as controlling, and women run away from that.

John: Whereas if they were more secure and they're like, "Look, I'm a high-value man. I'm a good guy. I don't treat people wrong, and I have enough respect for myself that these are the things that I think are important in a relationship and that are important in my life, and I'm setting these boundaries," then a woman is going to have a lot more respect for him. She might not always agree with the guy, but she's going to definitely have respect for him, and she's going to make the choice, "Do I want to give up some of the things that maybe she doesn't even agree with? Maybe she's like, 'It's fine. I know when I go out with my friends that we're not hitting on guys, like nothing's going to happen.' But she's like, 'I'm going to give that up because it makes him uncomfortable, and I value this guy, care about him. Yeah, I'm going to give that up and instead do this thing.'" And it's her choice, as opposed to being forced into it or emotionally manipulated into it, where it's like, "If you don't do this, I'm going to be mad at you." It's like, "No, it's like you can do what you want. However, based on what you do, I'm going to make choices whether I want to be in this relationship. I'm not going to threaten you and say, 'If you do this, I'm going to give you emotional consequences and make you feel bad about yourself and harass you.' Instead, it just may be something that is going to be a deal-breaker for me, and I might not have to, you know, no hard feelings, but it's not the thing for me." And that's the difference. I mean, hopefully, I've made it really clear between because it gets confused so much.

John: Yeah, it's a fine line, but boundaries are really the key. And I know I misspoke earlier. Controlled, that's why phrasing is very important. And that's why I mentioned too that if a guy comes at it as like, "I'm going to do these things," and then has his boundaries, showing that he's already doing them because that's the principle he lives by, it's more believable that this is the principle for a relationship with him.

John: Exactly, because if he's living it and he's like, "This is a relationship that I want to be in. This is what I expect from a relationship that I'm in," he's proving that by already doing those things. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. It's like, you know, because it might also be a situation where, look, as a man, maybe you can handle your alcohol, and you don't go crazy, and you can get drunk, and you're actually even fine. You're not doing stupid stuff. But maybe you're dating a woman where when she has a few drinks, she's like doing all kinds of stuff, and she gets out of control. So maybe then you say, "Well, I could handle it, but I'm not going to tell her she can't drink. I'm going to just stop drinking so that she stops drinking," even though I could handle it and she can't. You see what I'm saying? It's kind of like what your point before is: don't have those expectations higher for somebody, and you not do the same, even if you could do it, and it wouldn't be a problem for you.

John: Because you're showing by example that I'm willing to make a sacrifice in order to make the relationship better. That's what a man has to do to be a leader and authority in a relationship. Like, he can't just be like, "I'm the leader and the authority." You have to prove it, especially most people today aren't going to just believe somebody's words. They're going to believe their actions because people can say whatever they want till they're blue in the face, but they have to prove that they're backing that up. And if you do something like you just said, then you're proving that one, you're willing to stop doing something even though you can handle it, to lead the relationship in a better, healthier place.

John: Yeah, if I'm going to tell someone to do 10 push-ups, I'm going to do 100 push-ups because then they can't say anything against you. But if I say, "Go do 10 push-ups," and they're like, "Are you going to do it?" "No, I don't need to. I don't need to prove anything." It's like, okay, well, it's really hard to. But if you do 100, then it's really hard for them to say, "Oh, I'm not going to do 10." So, yeah, but it comes from that place of security versus insecurity, and women can sense it off of a guy. And if a guy's coming across as insecure, man, she like, it's so weird because in that scenario, if it was a different guy, right, and he flat out even told her, "Hey, I don't like you drinking that much," she would have probably had a different reaction, had more respect for him, and not broken up with him than the guy lightly saying, "Oh, be careful." Because when the guy says, "Oh, be careful," it sends...

John: Off a red flag, but see, I don't like you drinking that much. It's even kind of like borderline. It's like, but you're saying, "I don't like it," right? It's not saying, "Don't do it." It's saying, "I don't..." Some of the guys who are controlling kind of start with things like that. And I get what you're saying. It's like you're not saying, "Don't do that," right? But I think that's why you have to, you probably have to say a little bit more than just like, "I don't like that." I mean, the advice I give guys is always to start with, "I don't like this. I like this," because I'll tell you why. Because that should be the strongest rebuke that you ever have to give as a man, is just your disapproval of, "I don't like," or "I do like," because a woman should want to please you as a man. She should not want to do things that displease you.

Nicole: So, if a woman says, "I don't like something that a man's doing," should he take that into consideration just as much? Because, like we've been talking about the hypocritical thing, he should take it into consideration, but also, the dynamic is different between the masculine and the feminine, right? Again, but what do you mean by that?

John: What I mean by that is that, in this instance, like, so does that mean that he doesn't necessarily have to do it if she was like, "I don't like you drinking that much"? What would you say to the guy? Like, how should a guy respond if a woman says, "I don't like you drinking that much"?

Nicole: Yeah, 'cause I can understand, and I think where you're coming from is, uh, if she's like, "I don't think we should do this," but you think as a man, and for the whole family, and whatever, it'd be more beneficial. But I'm talking about like if the tables were completely turned, right? And she was like, "I don't like you drinking that much. I don't like how you behave towards me when you drink this much."

John: What would you say? He should take, he should fix that situation, right? So, whatever it takes for him to fix that situation, right? She's given her input on the thing, and now it's your responsibility as a man to figure out, how do you solve this problem, right? What are you going to do? Are you going to cut back the drinking? Sure, that could be one solution. Are you going to cut back the behavior? That could be another solution, right?

Nicole: So, is that something that you would expect from her too, or you expect her to just stop drinking?

John: I expect, I expect in that case, that it's going to show whether this woman actually cares about you at all, right? Because it's different, again, the dynamic is different in the sense that if a woman doesn't care about a guy, doesn't look up to a guy, and respect the kind of things that are important to him, then she really doesn't like the guy, right? Whereas it's not exactly the same when you flip it, right? So, because a woman that really likes a guy will really care whether or not she's doing things that he doesn't like or not. But a man, it's not, it's not, not to the same degree.

Nicole: But what if she has a boundary, and then she leaves you?

John: That's fine, and that's appropriate, right? If she has a boundary, she states a boundary, she leaves because you're violating that boundary. That's a choice that she's making, that she doesn't want to be with the guy that does this thing, right? That's fair. And I hear what you're saying, but I think there is, there should be, at least, maybe it's not like respect, respect, because I know men value respect very highly, and women want to be loved. But I think, like we mentioned in that episode about love and respect, that there is respect in love, and there is love in respect.

Nicole: Yeah, and I think, though, that even though a man might be the one to make the decision at the end of the day and is the authority and whatnot, I do think there has to be the same amount of like respect and love in that mixture for both people. Because I don't think that it's okay, like I mentioned, I think that it's okay for a man to be like, "Okay, I hear you, but we're going to do this," and explain why he chose a different way, right? But I don't think it's fair for that, for a guy to just decide what he wants to do but expect a woman to like change all the things, if that makes sense. Like, I think there still has to be the same level of showing somebody you care about them, which I think is what you're mainly suggesting here, is that seeing that the woman cares about you as a man. I think there still has to be that level from the man. And I'm not saying he has to do it in the exact way as the woman, but I do think that it has to be on the same playing field because I feel like you have to admire each other and care about each other, yeah, to the same level, or there'll always be a balance that feels off in your relationship.

John: Absolutely, yeah. I think what it comes down to again, it gets, we get into the weeds, but the complexity of it, which, you know, which is related, is that a man can never change his mind or do something just because a woman has told him. He can never do that because he has to stand on his judgment 100%, otherwise, she cannot trust him. If she's like, if she can tell a guy that she doesn't like something that he's doing, and then he completely changes that...

Nicole: But what if she explains it in a way he understands?

John: So, that's the difference, is taking it into account, and now he's like, "Oh, I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you." And if he truly agrees with her, then he makes that decision, and she's influenced him, and it's great, perfectly fine. What a lot of guys do is, again, they try to be peacemakers.

Nicole: Yes, peacemakers. They're afraid of losing the girl. She says, "I don't like this," or whatever it is, or "I want to do this. I want to spend this money on this thing," and he just goes along with it because he doesn't want to tell her no.

John: Well, that's where the delicate balance is, right? Like, you can't be a peacemaker, but you can't be controlling either. Like, you have to be, it has to be in the middle. Like, as a woman, if a man is just going to tell you no because he can't be influenced by a woman, I'm not saying that you're, I'm trying to explain part, but if he's just going to say no just because he can't change his mind, as a woman, you're not a good leader, you're not a good man, you're not who you think that you are. A good leader and a good man listens to what people have to say, right? And I mean, a good person in general listens to what people have to say and can own up to the fact that they might change their perspective on something.

John: Yeah, because that's exactly the same if, if I as a man am like, "Oh, I can't, I can't change my mind because you asked me to," and so it's an automatic...

John: No, right. That's very immature. Then, I'm actually being controlled by you because you just have to do the opposite, and then you get me to dance however you want me to dance. You see what I'm saying? Because I'm not actually still relying on my judgment. Right? Because as a woman, you want to test insecurity. As a woman, you want to test me. As a man, you want to know two things: one, that I'm not going to do things under pressure; you want to know that I'm not going to do things just because you want me to. But you also want to know that I'm not going to, to use a double negative, not not do things just because you don't want me to. Right? It's like, you can't control me either way; otherwise, I'm weak. You have to know that I'm listening to what you have to say, but at the end of the day, I'm taking that into account and making a judgment call, relying on my judgment, what I think, and the information that you have. Exactly. From that, it can't come from a place of, I'm doing it for any other reason than I think this is the right choice. If you feel like you have influenced me to a degree that I'm making a choice that's against my own conscience or my own belief of what is correct based on the information that I have, then you know I'm weak, and you know you can't trust me. And you know you can't trust anything that I'm saying or doing. Then you can't trust my leadership because you know that anyone can influence me because I'm afraid of the consequences, as opposed to I'm making a judgment call based on what I actually believe is the correct thing to do. Right? Right. Any leader, if they're making a judgment call based on, you know, people influencing them, being lobbied against, versus this is the actual correct thing to do, then you can't trust them. So, that's why there is a difference with the liking part there. But ultimately, it's about the insecurity versus security. A secure man that knows and trusts his own decisions and trusts that he's going to make good judgment calls, he's not going to be afraid of losing people in his life that are not willing to meet those standards that he has for his life, and his family, and his relationship. He's not going to be afraid of that. So, he's not going to change his values in order to avoid the pain of loss. And that's what it comes down to. And when we look at that scenario with that guy in the email, he was changing his values. He was misrepresenting his values in order to avoid the loss. That's why he called her up and tried to get back with her, and all this stuff. It's like, look, if you're at a party, and you are telling a girl that you're dating, "Hey, be careful when she's drinking too much," and then she gets upset and calls you controlling, all that stuff, and then you still want to get back together with her, and you're still trying to get her to like you, you should just be like, "Wow, that's... I had a concern for you, and I tried to voice it in a nice way. I'm going to leave." And then it's up to her to, if she wants to come to you and say, "Oh, I'm sorry, that was a way overreaction. I had a bad relationship before where my husband was controlling, and I shouldn't have... I know that you're just trying to look out." Let her repair that. Otherwise, you're like, "Hey, I have standards and respect for myself." Even if you've screwed up to that point, he could have still recovered by doing that. But that's what I'm saying about the whole thing. It all comes down to respect for yourself and security. If you're coming from an insecure place, you will always make the wrong choices. Everything you say will always be wrong. You will always end up on the line side of not forcing anybody to do anything. That's really the key, is like having the boundary rather than these rules or whatever you're trying to put in place. But yeah, it just sounds like he's definitely a people pleaser, and he doesn't want to lose her. But the thing that these sort of guys have an issue with that they don't even realize that's repelling women from them is, like you said, he said he had a boundary, or he got upset about something, but then now he's begging her to come back. That just makes a woman, or a person in general, feel like it doesn't matter about you as a person, that they just need somebody. Right? Or exactly, like, that you're not special. They just got upset with you, and instead of holding their boundary and actually acting on what they said, if they have a boundary, now they're just running back to you, even though you did something that upset them. Right? Now you can't really trust them 'cause you're like, "Well, weren't you not going to be in a relationship with somebody that acted this way?" Now 'cause even if you have a boundary, right? Right. And you say that. Right. That's why the key is that you have to follow through 'cause plenty of people also be like, "This is my boundary," and then the person breaks it, and they're like, "Well, do you want to still be together?" Like, you know, or like, "No, I still want to be with you." It's like, okay, now that person can't take you seriously. They don't respect you as much because you went against your own word. Exactly. And you were the one who did it. If you had a boundary and someone broke the boundary, and then you did what you said you were going to do, right? And then they came to you and said, "I'm really sorry," like, and then you said, "Okay, like, this is still the boundary." This is still the boundary. Right. That can even happen a couple of times. I mean, you have to use your discretion there, whether you feel like they're actually sincere. But what I'm saying is that depends on the boundary. That's different. That's different than them violating the boundary and you saying, and you chase them. Yeah, or you're like, "Ah, okay, one more try. I'll give you one more chance." You know? I mean, then it's weak, pathetic. Then it means nothing. Right. So, there's a difference between those things. So yeah, that's the key, is to actually walk away and remember, if you need to. She married the controlling jerk. She broke up with the nice guy. That, you know, again, I'm not saying she got divorced. Well, but she married the guy. What I'm saying is that, but she immediately broke up with the nice guy. Maybe she was forced to marry him. There was a rule, "You have to marry." But she chose to stay with that guy for however long. What I'm saying is, though, immediately, she broke up with the guy that presented his weakness. So what I'm saying is that it's not right, but a woman would rather be with a strong man that says what he wants and is clear about it than a wishy-washy guy who's a pushover and, you know, even if he's a jerk or an asshole. Not saying you should be a jerk or an asshole.

John: Don't get me wrong, but I'm just saying that men watching this should understand that being the guy who is insecure and afraid of losing the girl, and doing all these things to try and keep her, is always going to make you lose the girl. She's going to lose respect for you.

Nicole: Yeah, she's going to pick the jerk because the jerk doesn't care what other people think. She'd rather not be with a jerk; she'd rather be with a kind guy, but he still has to have confidence. At least she respects the jerk to a degree because he does what he says he's going to do, even though he doesn't care about other people.

John: Exactly. So, the other guy will just chase you no matter what you do.

Nicole: And so you don't feel special. That's what I'm trying to say. You don't want that. It kind of goes back to the killer analogy in our previous episode. Obviously, you don't want to be with a killer, but there is this attraction to a guy who is not afraid to protect someone, your family, whatever. There's that natural built-in attraction.

John: Okay, I hope that makes it pretty clear. I'm not a man, so I don't know, but like I said, don't allow women to manipulate you by saying you're controlling and insecure, but also don't be controlling and insecure. If you know the difference, you come in armed and ready, and you're not going to be manipulated because you can't be gaslit if you know the truth about it. I didn't tell you what you have to do, I didn't try to emotionally manipulate you. I just told you what I don't like and what my boundaries are, and what type of relationship I want to be in.

Nicole: And it goes for anyone. The same advice could apply to a woman dealing with a man. Women should have boundaries, walk away, and then, like you said, you have to stay away from that man. He might come back, and you get to determine if that's going to happen or not. Still, have your boundary. You get to determine if you want to be with him again and give him another chance. As a woman, you should definitely have boundaries as well, and it's going to get tested too.

John: Right, because guys always think that what I'm telling them is some magical formula that's going to make women do what they want. That's not true. If you tell a woman you've been dating for a while that you don't like her hanging out with guys, and that's something you're not comfortable with, and you're not sure if you want to be in a relationship with someone who's doing that, and she gets pissed off at you and says no way, you got to let it lie. You have to take her answer for what it is and be willing to walk. Many times, she will come around, but you can't expect her to come around, and you can't be doing it in order to get her to come around. Now it's controlling, now it is manipulation.

Nicole: Right, because if your boundaries change from person to person, then it's manipulation. Your boundary should not be dependent on who that person is. It should be in general, no matter what the person is, because then you can walk away from the person if your boundaries are based on the things that you will or will not tolerate, and what you want or don't want in a relationship. It doesn't matter who's sitting in front of you on a date. It matters about the boundary, and that does not have anything to do with the person. It has everything to do with you and what your boundary is.

John: It's the same thing as if you had a job, and your requirement for the job was that they had to have a college degree in marketing, let's say. Then people came in and they didn't have the degree in marketing, and they're like, "You're trying to control me." But if it's a flexible requirement, then don't say that it actually is. There's no reason why you can't say what it is that you require.

Nicole: Alright, I think that beating that dead horse hopefully makes the men understand, and women hopefully because it's like, you know, I think a lot of times women also get confused by this because of the way that men approach it. The best possible way to approach a lot of that stuff is to talk about what you're going to do because that also establishes trust within the woman that you do what you say you're going to do, and that you're living by a standard that you also want in a partner. She will respect you a lot more that way as well if you frame it from that perspective.

John: Exactly. Well, it's for a thing for the week since you already did that. I guess I could say that we were talking about parenting stuff the other night.

Nicole: Oh yeah, and I was trying to fill you in on some of the stuff because I spend most of the time with her during the day. I agreed with what you said, but I didn't say it out loud to you, so you felt like I wasn't agreeing with you, but that I didn't acknowledge it. You didn't know I acknowledged it even though in my brain I was like, "That makes logical sense," but I realized that.

John: I needed to verbalize that more to you. You know, like telling you, "Yeah, that's a good idea. I agree with that," rather than just in my head thinking, "Oh, I agree with that, so we don't have to talk about that. Let's talk about this other thing." So, yeah, I am sorry that I didn't acknowledge the things that I agreed with you on when we were having that conversation because I understand you can't read my mind. And the confirmation of just even being like, "Yeah, I agree with what you said. That's a good idea," just makes a person feel good, and I just forgot to verbalize that. And so, I'm sorry. Okay, yeah, I need to work on that for sure.

Nicole: Yeah, I think just as a guy, as when you're in a leader position, or anytime you're in a leadership position, it's good to have some confirmation that, like, "Yeah, that was a good decision you made. You're doing..." because it's hard. Sometimes you're like, "Am I making good decisions? I think I am, but..." Well, you do make good decisions, and it's like, I don't take it for granted, but it's just an autopilot thing. So, yeah, I'm normally just used to telling you, like, "Oh," like talking about the things that need to be fixed, or like something to get your perspective on, or things like that. And I do tend to forget to tell you that I appreciate, you know, the decisions that you make and that they're good ideas because you normally do make them good ideas. And I'm just like, "Everything's fine." So, like in my mind, when we were talking about it, I was like, "Oh yeah, that makes tons of sense. Everything's fine. I don't have to say anything." But yeah, then I realized that I do still need to give you that acknowledgement. I'm sorry I didn't. It wasn't intentional.

John: Just, I know, yeah. And I didn't take a lot of offense. No, but you expressed that, you know, you felt a certain type of way about it, and I'm glad that you did because it wasn't my intention. It was a helpful exercise for me too.

Nicole: Well, because for me to just say clearly what was troubling me, as opposed to like getting all bent out of shape about, you know, it's like because I had come from an environment where I was not able to say what was bothering me, you know what I'm saying? And so, it's refreshing to be able to just tell you, and then you're like, "Oh, okay. I didn't mean to do that," and it's fixed. So, yeah.

John: But I appreciate that. So, yeah. All right, well, that's it for this episode. Like us, follow us, leave us iTunes reviews.

Nicole: Yeah, comment on, or don't. We're okay if you don't. We'll be fine without you guys. You know, on our own with our podcast. We're not gonna... I'm just... we're just here, I'm saying, for the secure versus, you know, we, the insecure. Leave us a review, or we'll cry.

John: Oh my gosh, don't want to be controlling, you know.

Nicole: All right, see you next time. Find a way.