John: If you look at the person you're with and if they didn't change at all, would you still love them? And if you say no, break up immediately. When I was in my toxic relationship, I looked at it that way. I also looked at it in the way of, if I had a kid with this person and the kid turned out just like the father, would I be upset that now I have two of these people in the same house? I had to realistically say yes because they didn't want to change; they didn't want to work on anything. It's almost like a prison for people who want to grow and are constantly trying to be better. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault; we find our way. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole: Right before we turned on the camera, I was like, "Will he get it this week?"

John: You were. I felt it. We need to go back and watch the other episodes and see if that's the same part you get tripped up on every time. It's definitely the "grow".

Nicole: We're growing because I just want to say, "Two imperfect people helping each other equals one better than perfect relationship." But you know, the "grow"... Maybe we should cut the "grow".

John: Maybe not. I mean, I guess it is kind of around the same idea. It's more concise that way. But if you like the "grow"...

Nicole: I think you're cutting the "grow" because you can't remember it.

John: That's right. Well, do we have any housekeeping tidbits we want to talk about before we jump in?

Nicole: I'm trying to think. What's going on this last... We saw Shania Twain.

John: Oh yeah. And this lady who was sitting next to us wanted to be involved with both of us. She was staring at me the whole time, but yet like rubbing up against you. It was a very interesting experience. Luckily, she did not ruin the Shania experience, but she was towing the line.

Nicole: I was definitely worried about it. I mean, as soon as she sat down, I was worried because she just seemed like that kind of person. And she immediately started talking to us. And then we were in Vegas, by the way.

John: Yeah, I think that's worth sharing.

Nicole: And then she came up to you and was like, "Oh, will you stand up there with me? Will you go up there with me?" And then she was like, "Oh, and then you could go too." I was waiting for that one to come because I knew that's where it was going. And then we're up there, of course, and then she's got her arm around you and then her arm around both of us. And I'm like, "You know..."

John: Yeah. And then her head's like resting on my boob, looking up at us. I'm like, "What is happening right now?" I was like, "And then she's so cute." I was like, "Is she doing that thing where women compliment the other woman to try to weasel in there?" And then she said something like, "You must protect her." And I was just like, "He does." And then she didn't talk to us the rest of the time.

Nicole: I was like, "He does." And then she luckily, I guess, took that as like, "Hey." Which I'm glad because I was like, "I love Shania Twain." And I was like, "If this woman ruins this experience and John got us amazing seats, I was like, "If I have to yell at this woman and then she causes more drama..." Granted, she was drunk, so I didn't know if I had to be like, "Hey, look, back up." If she was going to flip out. But I was like, thankfully, after that moment, she stopped. But that was an experience. I was like, "Woman, you don't even know who you're messing with." Because look, Nicole doesn't handle this kind of stuff. I mean, you did handle it well because I thought you were going to flip out because she was coming on pretty strong and aggressive. So I was like, "I had to hold it together for Shania."

Nicole: I'm definitely the type of person where people are like, "Oh, she's so cute. She's not going to do anything." But you crossed the line, and that's like the last time you crossed the line. Because like, I'm a nice person until you give me a reason to be like, "Hey, now." Because I was like, "Okay, you know, when the girl's just looking at me, you know, but this is beyond that." So I'm okay, but you handled it well. You didn't make a scene.

John: And I guess she got the message. But I mean, she didn't do anything else after that. But it was... I was like, "Please." Because you were just talking about, just before we got to it, like all day about, "Oh, some other girls," or something like that.

Nicole: They always do. Like every time we go past like a group of girls, they're like staring at John. And I see them staring at John, and I'm just like...

John: And you don't do anything.

Nicole: No, that doesn't... You know, it's not... I kept... I was just saying to you, and then this lady shows up, and I'm like, "Great, this is not going to help my case."

John: And then we'll get on an airplane, and the flight attendant is like, "Oh hey, where are you going?" And I'm like, "Hello, this is happening."

Nicole: And you're like, "No." But at least you have some of these instances where they're like, "Yeah, it does happen." But I didn't think it would be that big of a deal until I met you. And you were like, "No, women like unavailable men." Because like the people I interacted with, that was not how we operated. And so being with you and being married, and you're tall and attractive and muscular, of course, people are going to look at you. But I just didn't know they would be so bold sometimes with some of the things. Not the flight attendant necessarily, but the lady at the Shania Twain, I was like, "Wow." And she was married, she was a mother, out with her other mother friend in Vegas, lowkey without saying it, trying to get involved in our situation, which also makes my point about look, women do... You know, they... So with girls' trip, please. I don't trust the girls' trip if you're those women who are like going after someone else's man or like trying to get all up in someone else's relationship. You need some therapy.

John: But you have to understand too that when you are dressed up very nicely, the more dressed up you are as a woman, the more likely a woman's to hit on your man. And it's so stupid. It's because women evaluate a man's value by the woman he's with.

Nicole: Exactly. So because that's how that's a shortcut to figure out value.

John: How women generally, that's a shortcut to getting your ass handed to you. That's all I got to say. But social proof is what do they say, fuck around and find out. She was about to find out. She's lucky she did not find out. I mean, I wouldn't have fought her in Shania Twain, but I used to be not the nicest person, and that part of me, man, if they had to stop the concert, if they're like, "Hey, hey y'all, can you just chill out for a second over here? I'm trying to sing." Look, I would not have allowed her to ruin Shania's night and my experience of that, but it was dangerously close.

Nicole: Then, this is not in the same realm, but we're sitting at the casino playing a game, and this lady comes up to us. I'm just sitting there, and she's like, "I need to see your ID." And I'm like, "Is this real?" And she's like, "Yeah, like right now." I'm like, "I don't have it. It's in my luggage." She's like, "You need to go get it."

John: I'm like, "I don't look under 18. You have to be 18 to gamble, right? Or 21. I think you have to be 18 to be in the casino, but you have to be 21 to gamble. Or I don't know. Maybe you have to be 18. Maybe you have to... Yeah, that. I do not look under 18, right?" And even in that moment, I did not. I had some makeup on, but I'm like, "I did not look under 18." But this woman would not leave me alone. I had to show her a picture of my passport on my phone. Luckily, that worked.

Nicole: And John's like, "She's 32." And I'm like, "Is this really happening right now?" Like, I can maybe understand getting carded for some alcohol, but we don't drink, so like, that's less likely to happen. But she literally, we didn't even talk to this lady. She beelines for us.

John: Yeah, who worked there, and then approached us. Like, we didn't ask her any questions. We didn't win anything where she was like, "Oh, you won this. Let me see your ID." It was just like minding their own business.

Nicole: Yeah, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm just hanging out with the 17-year-old girl at the casino, just showing her how to gamble." I mean, fuck, it was so ridiculous. I'm like, "Is this real life right now?" Almost had to have a talk with this lady last night, and now this woman thinks I'm like underage in a casino. This is great. Vegas. But actually, every time we're in Vegas, people do that. Remember, we went to that when we were young festival, and we were in line, and he didn't ID anybody but me.

John: Right, yeah, that's weird. But yeah, so luckily, everybody's safe. Maybe she's watching this podcast. You know, don't press your luck next time. You control yourself. But okay, I guess that was a pretty good introduction. What do you got for us today?

Nicole: So, the topic today is we're going to have to get more into it because it's a little more complicated than it sounds. But you had the phrase, "I don't like you, but I love you," to describe what the topic is. And it's kind of like not really loving your partner the way that you should love them, or like the way that makes your marriage easier and the connection easier, and all of those things.

John: Okay, yeah. Do you think I described it well? We talked a little bit about this. Is there anything you would add?

Nicole: I mean, I would say a lot of the topic. Yeah, a lot of people, they don't actually like the person. That's why I said like they love them, right? They like, you know, because you hear it all the time. You hear the jokes, so I couldn't stand being stuck in a room with my husband for, yeah, 5 days or what, right? So, it's like, are, and does that sound like a marriage you want to be in? Like, or you might even hear, "I love my husband, but I just can't stand to be around him for that long." Yeah, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about when you think those things, when you say those type of things.

John: Yeah, that's well, it's actually way deeper than that. That's why we picked this topic today. Well, I picked it and talked to John about it to see what he thought, and he agreed. So, I guess I'll kind of go first with one aspect of it that I came to realize. I think too that people love their partner, they love their spouse, they love the person they're in a relationship with, but it's not the level of love that marriage should be. And what I mean by that is like, you love your family, you love your friends, and you get in a relationship, and you love that person, but it's kind of on the same level of love, right? Everybody, their family, they love their family, but there are probably a lot of things about each family member that they can't stand or they don't like, right? Same with your friends. You love your friends, but there's probably some like things that they do that you don't really like, right? That you know, kind of bother you. And then people have that same sort of vibe with the person that they're with. So, they're like, "Oh well, this is love because this is how I feel with my family, this is how I feel with my friends, and this is how I feel with my partner, so that goes along the same lines, so it's got to be love, right?" And that, and like, nobody's perfect, which is true, right? I'm not saying that everybody needs to be perfect. Sure. I'm just saying that what I've realized is that that is what is causing a lot of the relationships, like you said, where people are like, "Well, I don't really like my husband, but I love him, of course," or like, "I love him, but don't make me stay in a room with him for a day, or you know, locked up during COVID or anything, 'cause I'll lose my mind." That's not how it should be, right? And I didn't realize it myself until I met you because a lot of the other people I had dated, it was still on that same plane, right? Like, there were things that I didn't necessarily like. They weren't like horrible, and some of them, but there were things that kind of bothered me, but I loved them, right? Like, I did love them. And until you came along, I realized that the type of love you need to have for a marriage, I guess, is what they would call true love, right? Which sounds cliche, don't get me wrong, but again, when I also got with you, I realized a lot of the cliche things are true. So, I would call this true love, when you like the person you're with. You don't have anything that gives you the ick, as women call it, or like, that bother you to a point where you start resenting the person you're with or harboring some sort of ill feelings because of this thing that they do, right? That bothers you. You love them entirely for who they are, and that, and I think that is like one level up. And I'm not saying you can't have this with your family members or your friends, but I think in a romantic relationship, the person that you're building your life with, then you, it has to be that level of love, right? To get married.

John: And be happily married for a long time. Okay, well, let me ask you a question then. Okay, do you think that most people start off that way and then lose it, or do you think that they never even had it?

Nicole: I think that the honeymoon phase that people talk about feels that way because you haven't noticed anything that's really bothering you yet. It's still new, there's still this freshness to it, and then people start realizing things that they don't necessarily like. And their love is not deep enough, so it does bother them and then it grows into this, "I love my husband, but I don't really like him," or, "I love my husband, but I could not spend a day locked in a room with him," you know what I mean? So, when you have true love, though, it is there from the beginning, but it is almost still kind of masked by the honeymoon phase. But you realize when the honeymoon phase doesn't end that you're in that true love, right? Because there's nothing kind of waking you up from that. And even if your partner does something wrong, I'm not saying that they're perfect. I'm not saying that you can't get upset with them. I'm not saying that, you know, they can't make you sad or angry or whatever, right? But you handle it differently when you're in true love. When those things happen, you still come from a loving place because you love them entirely. You love them so much you don't want to hurt them, even if they hurt you. And people don't have that because they don't like the person they're with. And you don't even have to strongly dislike the person, or even slightly dislike, but if you don't have that full love for who they truly are, in all their imperfections, okay, then that will happen. Like, you will be more likely to lash out towards them, you'll be more likely to say things to hurt them, you'll be more likely to yell at them. You won't view it as, even if you're upset, you don't want to hurt the person you love, right?

John: Right, right. Does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. And I agree with that. I would posit a slightly different theory, which, well, and you've heard me talk about this before, right? So, the cavity theory.

John: Ah, yes, the tooth decay.

Nicole: So, I think it's a combination of the two things, if I'm being totally honest here. Because I think there is a compatibility, like a match, like you're saying, the more romantic idea of it. But then there's also, I think, a practical part of it, which is that if you don't brush your teeth, you're going to get plaque on your teeth, and that plaque builds up over time. And if you don't go to the dentist and they don't scrape the plaque off, it's going to end up becoming a cavity, and it's going to decay your tooth. And the same thing in a relationship: if you have fights, you have little arguments, you have little things that don't get resolved, they build up over time. And over time, as you keep on building these things up, then you will get bitterness and resentment, and that is the decay that happens in a relationship. I think for a lot of people, because they do start off all starry-eyed and in the honeymoon phase, and that's why I think people think there is a honeymoon phase. And what I think is happening most of the time is that, yeah, you could say that there's chemicals in your brain that are wearing off in this natural process, but I think beyond that, what's mostly happening is that, and you see it all the time, right? We've seen it with many people that we've interacted with, where they will have a big fight, a couple of days will pass, and it'll blow over as if it just disappeared. They haven't really hashed it out, they haven't really come to resolution. Maybe some apologies were said, they weren't, but they didn't really get to the root of the issue, and or try to prevent it next time.

Nicole: Yeah, it was just sort of brushed under the rug. So, I think that is where people get that state because, especially over time, let's say that this, because this decay, this plaque, it builds up over time. You now have, if this takes two or three years for this process to happen, now you've formed attachment. And so, you do love the person because you're attached to them, just like you love a family member. You're attached to them because you've been with them for so long, but you don't like them anymore because you have so much resentment and bitterness towards them. And it's almost like you hate them, but you love them. And you see that a lot with people that have this animosity. Or, I mean, it's all over culture, media, television, TV, you know, all the movies where people joke all the time about hating their spouse, not liking their spouse, can't stand them, you know, those jokes about their husband, jokes about their wife. Well, because it's been normalized, that is what I think the problem is, though, is that it's been normalized. And I'm not saying that, you know, if your relationship has a lot of resentment and tooth decay, as you would say, that you can't fix it, so it's better, right? But I think if people start off with a better foundation of what a healthy and good relationship looks like, they'll make better decisions. Now, if you made a decision, you're married, and it's gone kind of downhill, I'm not saying that it can't work at all. You got married for a reason. I'll always say that, right? And so, there are things that you can do to improve your relationship, that's for sure. But that's not what this is about. This topic is about, you know, that difference, the difference in truly loving somebody for exactly who they are. Because, and I want to talk about it because I didn't love anyone for who they truly were, right, until you. And so, that's why I think people, they're doing the best they can with what they know. And if I hadn't met you, I would be on the same page as them. I would have ended up with somebody who did things that bothered me, but that I love them, you know, like most of the time it was good, and, you know, maybe this is annoying that they do, and maybe I don't really like this, but that's not really that bad, comparatively to things. And that's not necessarily like horrible, right? But when you came along, I realized the better thing to do and the best thing is to be with somebody who you love no matter what. I mean, last night, one of your contacts was in our bed, right? And I always joke about your contacts. It really doesn't bother me, but I bring it up because it would have bothered me with someone else. It would have made me so upset that your contacts are everywhere, right? But because I love you so much, I think it's funny.

John: And you're telling the truth.

Nicole: Yeah, and you're telling the truth, right? But it's like, I'm just trying to say that I understand where these people are coming from because, like I just said, if it was anybody else, that would bother me. That would be an ick or a thing that I would, like, not like, hate you for, or not like you for, but it would detract from the love.

John: You know what I mean? Like, everybody has those certain things. There are things your family members do where you're like, "I don't like that." There are things that your friends do where you're like, "I don't like that." But when you're with somebody that you wholeheartedly love everything about them, then that goes away. I didn't think it was possible. Like, I didn't think that was possible. Sometimes, even when I was dating, I'd be like, "Am I being a huge jerk right now because I don't want to go on another date with this guy because of the way he chews food?" That didn't actually happen, but it would be something small like that. I'm like, "Am I just being a super picky person? But it's bothering me."

Nicole: Well, yeah. What's going on, and this is what I would say, is that it's not about the context. It's not about the chewing the food. It's that something else is bothering you, and that became the thing that now irritates you or something you can pick to blame it on. But because it's not really about that thing. Those small things, you forgot to put your socks in the bin, all the things that people get nagged about or the irritants, it's not those things, I don't think. And that's where I think also, well, because I'm also trying to think about, you know, practically for people that are watching or listening to the show as well, what can they duplicate? Besides the magical part of it, there's a practical part that they can duplicate, which is, I believe, it's a combination of both. I had the same experience with you. I was like, "Wow, I just love everything about Nicole. She's just amazing. I never met someone like that before. I get along with so well that I'm just happy all the time. I'm just so glad that I get to spend my life with you and time with you, and I just want to spend all my time with you." But I think part of that is the way that we have been able to handle conflicts when we've had them, where we come out of it, and we never let that plaque build up.

John: And I think it happens for a couple of reasons. One of them is, and we talked about this the other night too, is the commitment level. There's this psychological principle I was reading in this book, and it was talking about how if you commit to something and say, "This is absolutely it," you'll be much happier with your choice than if you half-heartedly commit. If you're like, "Okay, I think this is the best one," the more confident you are in your choice, the more happy you will be with that choice.

Nicole: Well, I wrote down that I think they don't fully invest because they've already reached that point of, "I don't really like this person." And then that's why so many people have these backup plans ready to go if they get a divorce or if they break up. They're like already have it planned because something in them doesn't like certain aspects of the person already. Because in the honeymoon phase, let's use that, you don't have a backup plan. You're enjoying it. You're like, "This is amazing. This is awesome." But then something happens in these other instances, and now it's like, "Oh, well, he did this that one time, and that was kind of weird, so maybe I should have a savings account in case, you know, he kicks me out because this isn't going to work." And so many people live their life like that, even when they're married. They're not fully invested because they have that sort of like, "I don't like this certain thing." And I agree that it's probably resentment. A lot of it's resentment. And I agree that if they did fully invest, that it would cause the love to grow and make their relationship better. I do agree. But you know, we've talked about it a lot, that not investing fully in your relationship when you're married is the worst thing that you could do because you're one foot in and you're one foot out. And if you truly love somebody, that's like having a baby and being like, "Oh well, if you act up, I'm going to kick you out," you know, to a three-year-old. And they're going to act up. You forgive that child because you love them fully for who they are when they make mistakes, everything. You can have that, and you should have that, with your partner who you're going to spend the rest of your life with, who you created the baby with. And that's that level of commitment. It's like, look, if I had a car, right, and I had the money to buy another car if that car broke down or it wasn't working so well, I probably might ignore it, or I might just junk it, whatever. I get another car. If I don't have the money to buy another car and this is my only transportation, I'm going to take care of that car. I'm going to fix it when it's broken. I'm not just going to let it stay broken. And so that's the same thing, is that commitment in the relationship. Because if I marry you and I'm like, "This is my wife. This is the only woman I'm going to be with this for the rest of my life. This is the only option out there because this is what I have chosen," then if we get into an argument, I'm going to look at it differently. I'm not going to look at it as like, "Oh yeah, man, I deal with this. I can't. She fooled me. Who is this person?" I'm not going to think of that, or like, "Man, I don't know if I should have done maybe I made a mistake." That's how I might be thinking if I'm not thinking that. But if I'm thinking like I just said, then we get into an argument, I'm saying, "Oh wow, that hurt, but we got to fix this. We got to, you know, I'm still seeing you as this amazing person because you are the one for me." And then that comes from that commitment, that choice that a person has to make to actually commit. And which kind of, you know, all these things sort of weave together because it is both the romantic side that you're talking about and the practical side that I'm talking about. Because you have to say, first of all, before you even get to the commitment level, "Do I really, really, really love this person? Are they wonderful to me?" At this point, if you're like, "They're 80%," then you need to pass on that. Or keep dating until it gets to 100% if you feel like it's going to get to 100%. But so there's that part of it. And that's, I think, what you're saying, is that that romantic part, there has to be that connection that has to exist, right? But also, practically, you've got to make the commitment when you do if they are that person. And then you have to do the repairs.

John: And the maintenance to keep that engine running because, you know, as magical as we are together, if we handled our fights in such a wrong way, then I don't think we would feel the same way. I think we would still... I don't think we're immune to the plague. It would be a little bit better because we've never really yelled at each other and called each other names. There's been times where we've been upset, where it's like close, but it's nowhere near what most people experience at all. And so that's why I agree with what you said, and that's why I kind of wanted to focus more personally on the beginning stages because, like you said, if it's like 80%, which most people are like, that sounds pretty good, right? Like, what, I'm just missing 20%? Because that's how it feels with their other relationships. They're like, okay, well, I probably feel around 80% with my family and 80% with my friends because there's things I don't like, you know, which is normal. But in a...

Nicole: Romantic relationship, it does have to be more. It has to be more because you end up treating the other person a different way if you kept the 80 or less and go into a relationship. It's going to be harder, and you're treating them poorly because you have all this stuff built up, and, you know, you're feeling a certain type of way. Like we're talking about, it's not hopeless. Like, there are things you can do, but unfortunately, you both have to do them. And that's the thing too, that's why in the beginning, it's so important with who you pick, right? And that's why I wanted to talk about it because I was in the same boat as all these people who are going to be like, yeah, right, that doesn't exist. I was one of those people, though, that I was like, I would rather be alone than with the wrong person, right? Yeah, you know, and I dated people that were the wrong person for me, and I don't have a problem with that. But marriage, that was something I was not going to do unless I felt the way that you and I feel about each other. And if that never happened for me, I would have rather dated my whole life trying to find it then settled for the 80 or the 70 or whatever and just been miserable in that sort of experience, right? Or been the only person trying to work and fix it with someone that's not, you know. So, I'm not saying that you have to hold out like I did. I do recommend people do that, to be honest, but everybody's different. Yeah, but you do have to, like you said, get to a higher percentage, ideally 100%, before you make that commitment because it will shape how you interact, how you have conflicts, how all of that stuff happens, how you parent, right? When you have that 100%.

John: Exactly, yeah. It makes everything so much easier, and it helps you guys work together. I'm not saying that it'll always be perfect. We have not always been perfect. That's why we started this podcast. But I know that all the things that we've been through have been handled a million times better than any of the other relationships I've been in, including like family issues and drama and things like that. It's just the healthiest thing, and that's what you need. And, you know, even your family relationships, if they're kind of like an 80% dynamic, can change and grow, and you can help each other. So, I'm not saying that those things are permanent either, but I'm just saying that in the very beginning, you have to take it very seriously because marriage is a serious thing, and people have kind of diminished that, to be honest. Like, there are people, I know men are going to be like, women want to get divorced every 5 seconds or whatever, but divorce is so much more popular.

Nicole: Oh yeah, yeah. But I think it's because, I mean, we've talked about this, that a lot of it is like women don't feel loved, and then men don't feel respected, and that does go into it for sure. But they're also not taking it seriously. They have separate bank accounts, so if they break up, you know, or get a divorce, it's like, you know, they already stashed piled their stuff, or they're going to figure it out or whatever. They're not like fully invested, like you said. They're not viewing it as one togetherness.

John: Well, okay, and that's a great point. Think of it this way. I have done some consulting and some work in the startup world, right? And if you're going to start a startup, a company, you're going to try to get investment, right? So you got to pitch, you got to go to all these investment bankers and different places in Silicon Valley where you're pitching. Now, when you pitch, well, I mean, it's the same thing. You see Shark Tank plenty of times. We watch Shark Tank, right? What happens when someone's like, they do their thing, and they're essentially pitching to the Sharks, and they're like, yeah, I love this business. I'm like, we're going to kill it. And then they're like, oh, who, what are you, are you 100% in the business right now, or are you working another job? And they're like, well, yeah, I have to do this other thing to pay the rent, but you know. And they're like, ah, pass, hard pass, right? They're because they're not 100%. Because the Sharks know, right? Investors know, the same thing in Silicon Valley. If you're pitching a startup, they want to see that you have put everything in it. They love it when you mortgage your house. When they're like, oh, I mortgaged my house, and I put that into the business. Yeah, that's when their eyes light up, right? That's when they're like, yeah, because they know that the person who has put everything into their business will do whatever it takes. And so it's funny because I haven't thought about this argument before about when guys harassed me about why I didn't get a prenuptial agreement and all this stuff because, which business do you think is going to be more successful? The one where the person's mortgaged their house and put everything in it, and if this business goes under, they lose everything, mhm, or the one where the guy is like, it's a side business that he's run, right? Okay, or he has a backup plan, you know. Same thing with a marriage. Which marriage do you think is going to be more likely to be successful? The one where the guys put everything into it, both people have put everything into it. They don't have any separate bank accounts. If this falls apart, they're both going to be screwed over, like, or, you know, they're going to lose everything, whatever you could say. The guy's going to lose everything, whatever, it doesn't matter. There's a lot of risk that's put into it. That's going to be more successful, right? Guaranteed, guaranteed. Every... It doesn't mean that it's going to be successful, but I can guarantee you if you put everything into it and you don't have a backup plan, and you're going to be screwed if it doesn't work, it's going to be more successful than it would be otherwise. This is why men don't want to get married. I don't think they want to invest.

John: 100% because it's just like you tell your coaching clients, right? Or people that you are helping them start a business or something. You're like, if I told you that you have to sell 10 motorcycles by midnight tonight, or I'm going to kill you, right? You think that person's going to do it. Or I'll give you $10 million, right? That person's going to make it happen because they're investing 100% because they want that outcome, right? And so, like what you're saying is, when you invest 100%, you want the outcome to be that you make this work and that you guys are happy and you have a loving relationship and you don't lose half of your stuff in a divorce. But these men today are like, well, I'm just going to lose half of my stuff, so I'm not going to get married, right? Which they shouldn't if that's the mindset.

Nicole: That they have, but really, they have that mindset for other reasons. But you're 100% right that somebody who puts it all on the line is going to make it work, right? They're going to do what they need to do to make it work. And if you got married, I keep stressing this point because it's so important, if you got married to somebody, at some point, you wanted to spend the rest of your life with them. And obviously, like if things like abuse and things like that are going on, sure, get a divorce, that's different. But you know, if that's not the case, and you guys just resent each other, and you don't really like each other, and you've gotten to this point where you're kind of divided, you can come back. You can go back to where you were when you decided to get married, right? And have that happiness because you made that choice. Nobody forced you to get married, right? You made the choice. But you got to go to a dentist and, well, I mean, look at arranged marriages, right?

John: Mhm, they're usually in cultures where divorce is very frowned upon, so that's not an option, right? So they're investing 100%, and they don't even have the love. They didn't choose this person. They're not going on love; they're going on commitment alone.

Nicole: Exactly, and they're investing 100%, right? And those typically work out, yeah, majority of the time.

John: Yeah, not a coincidence. And again, the same thing, just coming back to what you said with the topic of the video, is that if you're that invested, are little things about that person going to bother you as much? Because you know you got to deal with those for the rest of your life. There's no out; there's no option. So then, yeah, you could get upset about leaving a towel on the floor, or at that point, if you really know that there's no other option, then maybe you find it funny now because it's cute because this is not going to change, right? If you have that mindset, you're more likely to tolerate those things, to not see those things as offensive. But again, like I said, it's still a lot of it does come down to the fact that it's not the towel on the floor, right? It's the emotional neglect.

Nicole: Well, and we're not saying that your husband can just throw all his things around, and you're just not supposed to care, and you think it's funny and cute. But like you said, those things won't bother you. But if it does get to extreme for some reason, if you're at that true love, 100% place, you can have a conversation so much easier than you would with someone that you're like 80% in because normally, you still have that kind of resentment. So you're going to attack each other rather than try to communicate to fix whatever problem it is.

John: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, what other... I feel like we touched on a lot of the stuff.

Nicole: I think so. I mean, I would say that any other thoughts you want to add?

John: Well, I mean, the question, I guess, the other piece of it that I was thinking about is that part of it too is the kind of development that we each had done on ourselves before we got into the relationship because that's true. The earlier version of me might not have fared as well.

Nicole: Right. Well, I think timing does have a lot to do with it, but I also don't think you have to be fully healed or even like as healed as you think that you can be on your own. I think that you just have to be willing to work on yourself. You have to be willing to work on yourself. And a lot that we have been talking about in some other podcasts and things like that that we've been on that I think is important to bring up here is that women need to take more accountability in the relationship as well too. Not like you're responsible for the relationship, but you're always going to have problems if you're a woman who thinks she doesn't have anything to fix and that you can just be emotional and spew all over everybody, and that's not your fault, or it's not your problem, or whatever excuse you're using. Like, if you're a person that values growth, man or woman, you cannot usually be with someone who isn't of the same mindset.

John: Yeah, and so that, for a man, if a man is really focused on growth and growing his mindset and having healthier ideals and ideas and mindset in general, then it's going to be really hard for you to be with a woman that is just like, this is who I am. And same with a woman, if you're a woman who takes accountability and wants to better herself and keep growing, you can't be with a man who's like, this is who I am, take it or leave it. And there's definitely those types of men and women out there who are like, you know, this is me; I'm not going to change; I'm not going to do anything. And with those people, you need to walk away from because you can't go anywhere. You can only go so far with that person because it takes two people. And that's why in the very beginning, if you're in that situation and you're with somebody that's like, I'm fine how I am; I'm not going to change, and you're trying to continuously grow, you cannot grow any further than where they're standing.

Nicole: Yeah, you have to have the mindset of, I love them exactly how they are, right? But I am... I don't need to be exactly how I am, in the sense that like, I... I don't want to say I'm not lovable exactly how I am, but I'm not... I'm not okay exactly how I am. You have to be okay with them being exactly how they are, but it only works if both people view it that way, right? Because if you're trying to... you can't change them, so you have to accept them, but you can change yourself. So you can't just be like, this is how I...

John: Right. I always say that if you look at the person you're with, and if they didn't change at all, right?

Nicole: Yeah.

John: Would you still love them, right? And if you say no, break up immediately.

Nicole: That's, yeah, absolutely. If you look at them and you're like, yeah, if they stayed the exact same, like they're a good person, I could live with them and love them for the rest of my life, that is a good indicator that you're with somebody that already has those same.

John: Ideas and like has worked on and really cares about you and loves you, but if you're with somebody, like if they stayed exactly the same, because when I was in my toxic relationship, I looked at it that way. And I also looked at it, because I'm a woman, in the way of, if I had a kid with this person and the kid turned out just like the father, right? Would I be upset that now I have two of these people in the same house, right? And I had to realistically say yes.

Nicole: Yeah, I would be upset if my kid acted just like this person, yeah, because they didn't want to change, they didn't want to work on anything. And as a person who wanted that, I'm like, now I'm going to be extra stuck because I got two people who might not want to ever do anything again. And it will just, it's almost like a prison for people who want to grow and are constantly trying to be better. And you've said this before, and I feel the same exact way, that our love being at 100% makes me want to be better every day. Like, makes me want to be the best version of myself and keep going and keep going. And it's not a task, it's not like, uh, I have to keep learning stuff, this sucks, or like, I have to keep trying to be better, this is exhausting. If you view it that way, you're kind of in the "I don't want to change" mindset. So if someone also says that, red flag. Well, yeah, but you know, it brings that side out of you naturally when you love that person so much and you love them for who they are. Because I know, you know, when you first met my parents and they saw us interact, they were like, "Who the heck is this? Who is this Nicole?" And I'm like, "I'm a changed woman."

John: Well, and I always think of it this way too, right? If I really love you, mhm, do, and I then I think in my mind, I'm like, this is the only husband she'll ever get. Like, do I want, if I really care about you, do I want to make this experience the best possible one for you? Because you're not going to get another one. You don't get another try, another guy. So I have to be that guy, right? So that's how I think, because I'm like, well, I care about you, so of course, I want to be the best that I can for you, because otherwise, I'm depriving you because you could have had a different opportunity with someone else who could have been better. So why can't I be the better? I don't put that pressure on you; you don't put the pressure on me, but I put it on myself. And I think we all have to do that in a relationship if you really care about the other person because you are depriving them of an opportunity if you're choosing to just, "I'm fine how I am." Yeah, then why did you marry this person and deprive them of an opportunity to find someone? You alone, if you're fine with who you are, be alone. Like, that's the sort of people that need to be by themselves because you're like, well, I'm fine, I don't need to change. That's the perfect type of person to be totally alone because you don't have to keep anybody else in mind, you don't have to do anything, you can do whatever you want because it's just you, and you're not taking it out on anybody. But I'm saying that I don't pressure you to be that way because I love you already for who you are. If you never changed, if you never did anything different, I would still love you. And that's why you're also probably inspired to think that way, you want to be more because I already love you who you are. And same with me, it's like, I want to, I would never want to like yell at you or hurt you, even if you hurt me. I would never want to do that back, by like something you said or something. I would never want to do that back to you because even though I got hurt by something, I know that you love me, and I know that I love you, and I know that it's just a misunderstanding because of our relationship. And so that's why I don't go straight to, okay, let me hurt him because he hurt me, which is how I did used to operate.

Nicole: Yeah, and to be honest, that stems way far back from like kids picking on me in school, and I was like, well, if I'm meaner than them, then they'll leave me alone, which worked. But as we're teaching our daughter, and I'm specially teaching her, is that that's the wrong way to be. I didn't have anybody to tell me at the time that that was the wrong way, but I'm trying to make sure she knows that it's the wrong way. But what I'm trying to say is that when you find somebody, though, that you truly love for who they are, it's easier to just want to be better all the way around, to give them the life that they deserve, and in turn, it gives you the love that you want the most.

John: Exactly, and the things that you also deserve, you know, as a person. Like, we all deserve love, and we all deserve the love that you and I have, the 100% love. I think everybody deserves that. Yeah, but like you said, it does take some work. It takes either the work of filtering out the people that aren't right for you and not just settling down with somebody that is at 80% or 70%. It takes the work of holding yourself accountable and wanting to better yourself. It takes a lot of things along those lines, but they're not necessarily, it's not bad work. It's not work that you're like, "H, I don't want to do this," because it gives you the most beautiful thing, and it's the opportunity to grow. And I would say that along those lines of holding yourself accountable, having boundaries for yourself in the sense that you might not be the most spiritually developed person or emotionally developed person at this point, but what you can do is create a boundary for yourself and say, "I'm never going to say this. I'm never going to call my partner a name. I'm never going to yell in their face. I'm never going to give them the middle finger," or whatever it is, you know, if you have those boundaries because those are the things that become damaging, that are the really hard to remove plaque, right? Because once you cross some of those lines, it's hard. When someone says, "I hate you," which happens in a lot of fights, we've never done that in a fight, but I have been in fights where those words have been exchanged, right? That's hard to, it's hard to say, "I'm sorry," right? You can't erase that from your mind, right? You even can probably pull it up in your head right now when it happened, and a lot of people try to act like, "Oh, well, I was just mad, or I was just upset, I didn't mean it," but when people are sad and upset and say things like that, there is a little bit of truth to them. Yeah, so it's like, you can't fully erase it from your mind, and they say it to hurt you, right? So you feel that hurt. Yeah, and so, so when you hear that, you're like, it's embedded in your mind now, you got bumpers on your car, right? You got a front bumper.

John: And a back bumper, you could drive around and be like, "I could just kind of hit things, you know, 'cause I got a bumper." But it's not going to be so easy to get that damage out of there. You know what I mean? Yeah, the car will be protected, sure, that it's fine, but at the same time, that damage is still going to be... Yeah, you can replace the bumpers, you can buff them out. It's a lot more work, so you got to be careful with those things that you say 'cause that's, you know, there's some hard lines.

Nicole: That you just got to... because that's where it comes out. That's where you start to unravel that because you're getting that decay built up, and that plaque is hard to remove. And if you're in the position, then you can remove the plaque, but you got to do a lot of work to remove the plaque, to really dig down deep. When I'm coaching guys, and almost always it's like the woman in the relationship, but by the time the guy has come to me, she has so much hurt and resentment built up over time of the things that he's done that he might not even be aware of, that she stopped telling him about because she didn't feel safe to do it anymore. So she just stuffed it down, right? That he's like, "Why does she blow up at me? Why does she, even when I try to do something nice now?" It's because there's a lot of layers of plaque that have to be... So it's not an easy job at that point, but it can be done, right? But you just have to realize how deep that it may go.

John: And the same thing again, that men may have felt disrespected for such a long time. And I saw this one thing, I think it was on TikTok, it was pretty good. The guy was talking to other guys, and I think he was addressing it to him, and he was like, "Look," I can't remember exactly how he said it, but essentially he was saying, "We have emotions too." And he said that, you know, when a man comes to you and he shares with you, and then you react negatively, he's never going to do it again. He's never going to... You're never going to hear from him again. He's never going to say anything again, and you trained him to do it. And I was like, "That's pretty accurate, you know?" And that builds up over time. And that's where this... Yeah, and then decay happens, you know? And usually, too, it's like the woman doesn't feel loved, so she doesn't want to listen to the man's emotions because she feels like he doesn't care about her emotions.

Nicole: And then, like you said, he never talks to her again about it, and then his resentments building up, and then her resentment is building up, and then it's just a total mess. Yeah, but that's why if you have that true love for the person you're with, you'll want to listen to what they have to say. Or as a man, you'll be like, "Oh, she seems maybe like she's a little upset. Let me talk to her." Do you know how many men seek women out to talk to, ask them what's wrong, and actually want to talk about it? You're the only man I know that does it. I'm not saying you're the only man that does it, but like a lot of times, like you said, when you were just describing it, that a woman has felt unloved for so long, and he's like, "Well, what did I do?" That makes a woman even more upset when he doesn't even know that he's acted unloving towards her. That hurts her.

John: Probably that's like the cherry on top of the hurt Sunday, you know? And a way that he could show her that he cares about her is to ask her what's wrong. And granted, I'm not saying that a woman, a man needs to read a woman's mind and be like, "Oh, she... let me just ask her all the time why she's upset," but normally you can tell when a woman's kind of in a mood, right? And she should come to you and have a conversation, but if it's built up like we're talking about, she's probably not going to, just like a man's not going to come back and talk about his emotions after he's been rejected or had a negative experience. But each person reaching out to the other person to be like, "Hey, are you okay?" and letting that person talk and not having a negative experience, not taking it personally, which can be hard because as humans, we can get defensive, especially when someone's like, "You hurt me doing this," and you want to be like, "No, I didn't mean to do that," or, you know, which we've talked about in other episodes. But people don't really realize how you can actually start mending things a lot faster if you go up to them and be like, "Hey, you seem like something's bothering you. Do you want to talk?" And maybe adding in like, "I know in the past I haven't responded the right way, and that has made you hesitant to talk to me, but I'm going to listen to what you have to say. I'm not going to have any sort of debate with you about it. You can just have your feelings. I just want to hear your..." Yeah, because you can say, "What's wrong?" right? And it could mean, "What's wrong with you this time?" right? Even though you're just saying, "What's wrong?" Say, "What's wrong with you this time, for the love of God?" But when you just say, "What's wrong?" it can still imply that because it's a trap, or it can be, "What's wrong? I really want to understand you better." Yes, you have to add that in there. You can't just be like, "What's your problem?" Like, that's not going to work. But it's what you're thinking will come across when you say, "What's wrong?" right? That's why I was like, she doesn't tell me what's wrong; she just says nothing. If you said explicitly, "What's wrong? I want to understand what's bothering you," or "I want to understand where you're coming from right now," you know, that's genuine. It's funny, actually, there was another thing I saw, I think it was a TikTok or something, and it was this British couple, and the woman asked a guy, they were sitting in a car, and she says, she named some celebrity, and she was like, "Would you leave me for, you know, this person?" And he was like, "Oh yeah," and he was like, "Yeah, you." And she's like, "Why?" And he's like, "Well, she's way hotter than you." So, like, and then she said something to him or something, and you know, and there's all these comments and people like, "I love this couple; they're so authentic; they're so honest with each other." And I was like, "No, no, you got the wrong message here. They're the wrong people to be in a relationship with each other, obviously, if he's like, 'Yeah, I would leave you.'" Well, and the point I wanted to make with that was that you have to be careful, even if they're joking, which I don't know, maybe they're being very honest or whatever, but 'cause we saw a standup comic, right, that was making fun of her husband, and yeah, it.

John: It's a joke, I get it, and she probably doesn't really think that way, but some of the things she does think, obviously, otherwise you wouldn't make a joke about it. But you can't say that stuff because if you are even jokingly saying, "Oh, I couldn't stand to be in the room with my husband for that long," or whatever, first of all, if you're telling me that, my level of respect for you just goes way down because you just have back-talked someone behind their back that you're supposed to love, right? More than anything, that's supposed to have your back. Even if it's a joke, I get people make jokes, but you don't joke about that. It's not funny because if they heard it or they knew you were saying that about them, you know, and a lot of people would say, "Oh yeah, no, they would think it was funny too." No, they would pretend like they think it's funny, but deep down, they would be hurt by that, right?

Nicole: So, that's more plaque right there, exactly. So, that's the thing, is also some of the reason why people get into the mode of, "I love you, but I don't like you," is because they reinforce it, you know? You get together with the guys, and you start joking around about your wives and how this, your wife's a nag, or, you know, whatever, she shops too much, and all this stuff, and you start spewing this stuff. And women do the same thing; they gossip about their boyfriends or husbands. And man, you start doing that, you're going to go further down that path of, "I love you, but I don't like you," and that's not a good place to go. So, you just have to not put that in, not let that come out of your mouth at all. It's not funny, it's not a joke, it's not something to be joked about. I know it's everywhere in the media to joke about that, right? And we laugh at those things, but it's not funny.

John: But I think it's normalizing the bad sort of relationships, right? The like, "I don't really like you, but I love you" relationships. I think that's why they're so normalized, is because people are joking about their husbands, or they're gossiping, and they're, you know, just sharing all the bad stuff. And so then, people are like, "Oh well, like there should be some bad, that's normal." But it's like, your bad shouldn't be bad in the way that you guys are talking about it. Like, it shouldn't be bad where you're making fun of your husband in a comedy bit, or you're gossiping about all the bad things your husband does, or those sort of things. That's not the bad or the hard in a relationship. That's not what it should be. It should be when you do have a disagreement, that it's just hard to sometimes not be defensive, or to not, you know, take things the wrong way and turn the argument into something that it gets bigger and bigger. That's what should be hard, you know? And or, you know, it should be hard to try to apply something every single time, right after you did something wrong, 'cause that's also hard to kind of break habits. But it's not impossible. That should be the heart of a relationship, or like the things that you face that everybody's going to face in life that are just hard situations. Maybe you lose your job, or your house, or a family member, or something like that. That's the hard stuff you're supposed to go through. The hard stuff is not supposed to be, he's talking crap about you, and you're talking crap about him, but you're married and you love each other. Yeah, but there, like the love is essentially gone, and you're separating yourself more and more the more you do that. And even though you're not doing it to his face, it's you're still living that truth.

Nicole: Oh yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, and like, it's not to say that sometimes I'll tell some of my girlfriends like something funny that you did, or something like that. Like, I have one of your contacts in my shoe, which happens at times too. But it's like, I'm never like talking down about you, ever. Like, everyone knows that I'm obsessed with you, and I love you so much, which is how it should be. Yeah, like, and it's okay to do that. It's okay to love your husband so, so, so much. Like, I don't get where people got to the point where they're afraid to love their wife or their husbands as much as they should.

John: Yeah, yeah. But that's the normal, not what the normal has become.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. Well, that was good. I think we covered it pretty good. So, what is our, you have to do our thing for the week. Let's see, uh, I mean, it's okay. So, we had a little bit of a thing when I got off the phone with my dad. He's going through some stuff, yeah, and I didn't handle it the best way. I was a little bit upset because when I had some of the things I had said, I felt like when I wasn't getting support about my stance, or, you know, what the situation, and I felt like a lot of times when I would say something, that it would be countered. Uh, but I ended up getting more upset than I needed to about that, and not really handling it in a calm way, and just explaining how I felt about the thing, which is hard to do. It was good that it turned into a conversation that I could realize that what I was doing, you know? I'm never trying to like argue with you, or trying to, you know, I mean, I do feel like sometimes I try to be Devil's Advocate, or like try to play both sides, or like to see both sides, not play both sides. But also, it was important because I don't want you to feel like that constantly, and I don't want to do that to you or anybody else. And you made me realize that I do that, and I don't realize I do that, and I need to work on that. And I don't want you to feel that way. And like, it's never to argue with you, but it doesn't matter, like I said, what the intention is, it's that you felt like I wasn't on your side, and I'm always on your side. So, it was something that you needed to talk to me about, but it was, I just didn't talk to you in the right way about it.

John: Yeah, like, it was hard to really see that in the beginning of the conversation, but at the end, it was a lot easier to realize what was going on. And that was a bit of an emotional state because with what my dad was going through, and then some stuff that happened involving Sophia and the parenting situation from that previous week. So, I was definitely not in the best mental frame, but you know, it was good. But I think I caught myself, right? You helped me, and then, and I feel like that helped me too because there was something I needed to work on because it, I still saw, okay, I thought I have this thing mastered, but I don't, 100%. You know, and you know, you're going to mess up sometimes, but I feel more confident every time. I'm like, okay, I got, I'm making more progress because I'm more able to catch myself and just speak the truth and vulnerability, right? Rather than to get upset.

Nicole: Well, and that's the important.

John: The thing too about the 100% relationship is that it's safer to be vulnerable. When you have that 80% or whatever, you don't feel safe because there are things you don't really like about them. You feel like, I'm sure there are things that they don't really like about you, and so you don't want to bring up more stuff and make them more upset than they're already acting towards you. But when you have that love for each other, that you know is there, that you love them fully and they love you fully, then when you make mistakes, you don't feel like your love is going to be taken away. A lot of people, from their childhood or bad relationships, feel like if they do something wrong, their love will be taken away. And that's a valid experience because a lot of people do experience that from either their parents or their partner or whoever, you know, caused that sort of trauma within them. But that's why this is so important and why I want to do the topic. Because when you find that person that you love fully and they love you fully, and you know it, like you can feel it in your bones, it's safer to make mistakes, it's safer to be vulnerable, it's safer to have these sorts of conversations, it's safer to grow and learn.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. Because a lot of times too, you're like, "Do you not like me now? Are you mad at me?" And I'm like, "No." There's never a time, even when you make mistakes, there's never a time where I'm like, "This gave our relationship a plaque." I'm like, "I know that you're trying your best, and you show me that, and so when you make a mistake, it's not a big deal because of the effort you put into our relationship and the love you show me. It's just a learning experience." And I tell you all the time, nothing you do will ever change how much I love you.

John: Which, it's like, it's hard to believe.

Nicole: It is hard to believe. Like, even in the perfect relationship, I feel like it's hard to believe. But it's true.

John: It is true. Yeah. So, yeah, these segments are hard. I hope people appreciate it.

Nicole: I think they do. But, you know, that's life. It is. So, we're human too. Like, that's the thing, is like, we feel like we have the perfect relationship, but the part of the perfect relationship is this segment right here. And that's why we added it in. And things just get better. Because we did a podcast Wednesday night.

John: Yeah, we were on a podcast, and I forget exactly what the question was, but it was like, "Do you feel like your relationship has changed?" And I was like, "This is a weird question because it's like, no, because it's been this baseline consistency of loving each other and respecting each other and growing together. But the love has grown more. So it's like almost a new constant. It's going up, but it doesn't feel like accelerated really fast because you're already at this high constant. Like, you feel like you're at the top, like you can't go higher, and then you go up a little higher. And then so you're like, 'Oh, I guess it can keep going.' And then it just keeps going, and it kind of blows your mind that you could even love this person more than you already do."

Nicole: Yeah. So that's why it's like consistent but yet growing, if that makes sense.

John: No, I agree. But I do feel like everybody can have a 100% relationship.

Nicole: Yeah, I do. And the love that we have, it just might take a while. And you either have to decide that you're worth waiting it out, or, you know, if you get into an 80% or 90% relationship, you can improve your relationship. It's not saying that you can't at all. It'll just be harder.

John: Right. So, yeah, there's hope for everybody. Should I dare check the...

Nicole: Oh, you're really going to do that?

John: I don't think we did. Or did we do it last week?

Nicole: Let's... I think we did it before. You were like, "It will..."

John: I believe that this time, you have a feeling.

Nicole: Yeah, that there will be some reviews. We shall see because I made fake accounts, and I made...

John: Oh, I like, "This is the best podcast ever. It saved my marriage." That's what I put.

Nicole: No. Oh, I thought somebody put that. I was like, "Oh, that's a good one. It saved my marriage because I'm married to the co-host of the podcast."

John: Oh, it's not coming up. My connection might not be good enough.

Nicole: Okay, well, it'll be to be continued. I have a woman's intuition that it might not be anything there, unfortunately. But leave us a review, yeah? iTunes, Spotify, you know, share it out, tell your friends.

John: Yeah, follow us on social media.

Nicole: Yeah, someone commented today, they're like, "Only eight views." Oh no, just kidding.

John: Okay, well, see you next time.

Nicole: Through every fault, we find our way.