John: What do you do at your work? No, that's not right for a first interview. Keep it light and flirty. Ask them what kind of bug they are. One of my friends went on a first date, and she was like, "What kind of pasta are you?" And he gave a really good answer. He said he was bow tie pasta because he's a distinguished gentleman. That's so much better than asking, "What do you do for work?"

Nicole: Beyond that, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. Welcome to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we show you how two imperfect people helping each other become better equals one better than perfect relationship. Today, it's my topic. And it is Christmas time for us, us Time Travelers. And, John's not feeling good today, but he made it here.

John: Hopefully, you won't have to cough too many times.

Nicole: No, but yeah. So, how should I phrase what we're going to be talking about? Okay, so I guess the topic this week would be like a guy and a girl's perspective on a first date or like things to do, how to have good dating etiquette. Kind of like a guy's perspective of things you should do on a date or how you can make it go well, and then a woman's perspective on how things should go about.

John: That sounds good. So, I guess you should start.

Nicole: Oh, I'm going to start? Alright, well, the man is the leader, so you know, and usually sets the date. So, since you've put it that way, there you go.

John: Well, yeah. I mean, there's a number of directions we could go with this, but we'll just say some tips for men going out on dates. I think even starting from setting up the date too would be beneficial.

Nicole: Yeah, okay. I think it depends too, also, to give the full context on what the man's intentions are. Because, you know, if you have short-term intentions as a man, then you might want to do things a little bit differently than if you have longer-term intentions.

John: But don't they all have one intention? But like, they could also have more. It's always one thing, let's be real. They have a goal, and then it's like, do they want more than that goal, or do they not? So, I think it's like, let's be real here. A guy wants to have the date end a certain way, regardless. They're always shooting for that.

Nicole: Well, but they maybe wouldn't necessarily be upset if it didn't happen because they're also looking to build something. Or some guy would be upset if it didn't happen because that's all he came there for.

John: Okay, so yeah, I guess we have to address that. No, it's good. It's good because I think it's good to talk about that. Because most of the guys that you would date, that would be true.

Nicole: Are you saying me specifically, or like...

John: I'm saying an attractive woman. So, a lot of the guys that you wouldn't date, they wouldn't have that in mind. And the reason why I make this distinction is because a lot of guys that are listening to the podcast or watching it, they're going to fall into the category of more of the nice guy. And they actually have genuinely plans for the date, and they're looking for a girlfriend. Saying they're not hoping, not even a little bit, that that happens. A lot of them honestly would be no because they're just too... A lot of men are not in touch with their sexuality. And what they do is they repress their sexuality in front of women. And that's what makes them a nice guy, and that's what makes them not attractive to women. And so, they would actually, the nice guy theory of it is, "I just want to treat her well and make her feel special, and I'm already in love with this girl, and I haven't even gone on a date with her, and I don't want it to be about sex." That's honestly what a lot of the nice guy motivates.

Nicole: And that's why I'm going to say also that a man should have in his mind how he wants the date to end. Oh, really? Because there has to be the... It has to be a game, it has to be a dance, it has to be two opposing forces. The woman is looking to vet a guy and find a good guy that she can get to commit, and the guy is looking for a quick action to get his immediate needs met. And it should be that way, and a guy should have that on his mind. Why? Because if a guy comes in with the nice guy frame, and he's like, "Oh, I'm just going to treat her well, and I don't care about this. She's a wonderful, beautiful person, and I love her, and I don't even know her yet," then there's nothing. It doesn't intrigue the woman. There's no mystery, there's no sexual tension, the chemistry doesn't exist.

Nicole: But what if you're just indifferent? Like, it could happen, it could not happen. You're not going to allow it to bum you out, sort of thing. I guess is what I'm... That seems very extreme. You're like, so that's why I was asking why. Because it's like, is this guy only going for one thing? Because there are guys who go on dates, and they do only want one thing, and they do get upset when that thing doesn't happen. Or, you know, even like in our comment section, right? Guys being like, "I bought dinner, so she needs to go home with me." And that's honestly what women are afraid of a lot of the time. Is this whole, "Is he going to hold this against me?" A lot of times, women are very standoffish even going out with a guy if she gets the vibe that he will be like, "Oh, I bought you dinner, so now you owe me your body." And I'm not saying most guys are like that, but some guys are. And it's usually the guys who are so heavily just looking to go home with somebody, right? That they then get angry when that doesn't happen, or they're like, "I did this for you. What are you doing for me?" Very transactional, which kind of goes back to some of the other stuff we talked about. But, um, yeah. I just, when you were describing it, it just seemed like the extreme sort of guy that I was just mentioning, or the nice guy. But I'm like, where though is the in-between, which I feel like is probably the best.

John: Well, it's kind of like almost both of those behaviors actually could be the nice guy, right? Or the guy that, in the sense that if it's transactional, if he thinks... What a lot of nice guys do a lot of the time, that is their mistake, is they create a covert contract. There's actually a really good book on this by Dr. Robert Glover called "No More Mr. Nice Guy," and he talks about covert contracts. And in this idea that he's...

John: It's creating some kind of implicit contract. We haven't agreed to this thing, but it's like, if I do this for you, then you have to do this for me, but it's not said. That creates pressure and obligation, making them really not like you. A lot of guys do that too. The middle ground is that a guy should be open to long-term dating but not fixated on it. He should come from the frame of, "My life is really good. I'm not looking for anything serious. I like my casual life." So, when he does meet a woman that convinces him otherwise, that she's worth more than just a good time, there's value for her as well because she's getting something from that guy that he's not giving to everyone, and vice versa.

Nicole: What you said makes sense, but I feel like most men are taking that to the extreme. They're enjoying their single life so much that they don't want to ever settle down. I agree that everyone dating should acquire self-care and self-love to such a level where you wait until somebody provides something that beats that out. However, men, being very sexual beings, are pushed into not wanting to settle down at all, focusing on just getting satisfied. They can do that, and it's more appealing for a man to stay single forever. Whereas women can't just go get a good relationship as easily as a guy can go get sex and be satisfied. This perpetuates guys continuing to not settle down because they're getting satisfied. Women are trying to catch these guys, and he's like, "No, I'm not settling down," even if he likes her. It comes down to, if he wanted to, he would.

John: It comes down to guy game and girl game. A guy should be exercising his game, trying to achieve the male objective. A woman should be utilizing her game, not allowing him to achieve his objective immediately but making him feel like he's on the way to achieving it. That delicate balance. It's up to the woman to have game, to catch one of these guys, to get him to catch the feels by spending enough time and investing enough in her. She has to have herself of a high enough value to say, "Look, I'm not going to just sleep with you just because we went on a date or especially just because you bought me dinner." It's not about financial investment at first; it's about a man's time and his interest in you.

Nicole: When I went to brunch with my friend yesterday, I gave her this analogy. It's like a dog or a horse with a pole attached to its back and a carrot dangled by a string. You're the carrot for a while. You have to be here where he can never really reach it, but he's still trying. There will come a point where you give them the carrot, but that aspect is so important. Not because you're playing a game, but because men do like a challenge. You almost have to turn your authenticity into this carrot. You're telling him the truth, not being manipulative, but just giving him enough where he's still going after this thing, but not getting it quite yet. Men want the challenge. You cannot give a man everything in the beginning because then he'll think, "I already got what I came here for," even if he actually likes you. You've lost that mystery, that pursuit, which is a very masculine thing to go for your goals and work towards something. So, why wouldn't you make a man work towards achieving you?

John: Right, I guess essentially, and it's vice versa for women. Women want to solve the mystery; they have the detective mind, so they want to figure out the guy and feel like they've figured the guy out, as opposed to him just telling her all of his emotions and how he feels about things and just immediately committing to her. She wants to feel like she's won him over, and that's why it is a game. People get upset, saying, "Oh, I don't want to play games. I just want to be straightforward. I just want to tell this girl I like her, and I want her to tell me how much she likes me." But when we go to sit down and play a regular game, a board game or something, we could just roll a die and then decide who wins based on the die. We don't even need to play the game, but that wouldn't be fun; it wouldn't be interesting.

Nicole: It is a chase, and a back and forth, a cat and mouse, and switching roles. You have to have a little bit of that because it creates tension, investment on both parts, and makes it exciting. Something that you want to play, that you look forward to with this person. It gets the emotional involvement that needs to be there in order to build a strong bond. So, it is not a negative. But that's why I'm saying, you know, I think it's important to set that basis. A lot of guys, some guys, a lot of the guys that are listening, that might fall into the nice guy category that struggle with women, they need to stop trying to be so nice. They need to stop trying to be like, "Oh, I'm just going to be a perfect gentleman tonight." There's this movie, what is it, "Swingers", it's called, but it's not about that kind of swinging. There was this part in the movie where he says, "I don't want you to be that guy in the PG-13 movie that everybody really hopes is going to make it. I want you to be the guy in the rated R movie that you're not quite sure if you like." That's what guys need to be.

John: See, it's got to be hard for someone going from people-pleasing, which essentially is what the nice guy sort of thing is, to like now you're telling them to be kind of like an asshole, which like they don't even know what they're doing. So, I think instead, it would be like you said, like don't worry about what you're saying, like don't worry about coming across a certain way to this person. Right, like focus on being you, you know, and like have boundaries. Boundaries are a good thing. It's like you're not being unkind, but you have boundaries, and be a little bit more mysterious rather than putting your heart on your sleeve because I don't think anybody should.

Nicole: Yeah, from the very beginning. Because here's another thing too, like you go on a date, right, you tell the guy everything, and then now, like, you realize you don't really like him, and now he knows all this stuff about you. Not that I'm thinking he's going to do anything with it, but it's just now it's like, you feel like, "What was the point?" It makes women be like, "I don't want to put myself out there because I went and told this person all these things about me, and we didn't work out." A problem with women that I realized from talking to other women, that I guess wouldn't necessarily have girl game if that's what you want to call it, like they would just stay with whoever because it's comfortable. And they're like, "I don't want to go on a date because I don't want to have to tell somebody about myself." Like, "I don't want to." I'm like, "Come on, like the easiest thing to do is to go out with somebody and just talk to them, you know, like don't treat it like an interview. Don't treat it like I need the next guy I go on a date with to be my husband."

John: See, that's the thing. Women do that because it's the same thing. That's why I'm saying it's like, you know, women will try and fit a guy into the mold rather than, and they have these expectations, right, and it's the same thing like you said. Guys shouldn't have these expectations either, but you have an outcome that you would like to occur, but you're not attached to that, right? That's the thing about it. But it'll make it, I guess what I was trying to say with the woman thing complaining, is that like if you don't show all your cards right from the bat, right off the bat, you won't be as upset if it doesn't work out. Like, you won't be as exhausted to have to go on another date because what did you really give this guy? Like, you guys had a conversation, you didn't talk about everything, you talked about certain things, and you realized it wasn't working out, and so like, you're not as emotionally invested. Like, I'm not telling women to not have feelings, but kind of like the thing is, like you just said, a lot of women are like, "The next guy I go on a date with, he better be my future husband because I'm ready to do this and settle down and have kids," and it's like, that never works, right?

Nicole: And then that's yeah, because that's going to push a guy away. He's not going to want that. Well, it's yeah, it's just like, it's you're putting this desperate energy out there, and people can tell. And nice guys do that too, right? Like, they're trying so hard, they might be even trying to get girlfriend, this person to like them, that it almost repels the person because you can feel the inauthenticity in it.

John: Yeah, incongruence, like it's like you're not what you appear to be. But that kind of brings us into what I was going to say about, you know, what should a guy be doing on a date, right? And the big tip to start off is that you do need to have the idea of bringing your sexual energy to the date to actually have the outcome of, yeah, this could end in getting laid tonight. And to actually really, because again, I'm saying this because you have to have that mindset as a guy going into this because so many guys are like, "Oh, good night kiss at the end." Well, it'll help you be smoother. It'll help you be smoother because if you're thinking about making moves and, you know, because one of the biggest things, and I'm sure you can confirm this, the reason why a lot of women date a guy once.

John: And then never call him again, right? It's because there's no chemistry, but that usually means he didn't make any moves. He didn't try. There was no sexual vibe, right? Because he didn't create a sexual vibe at all. So, you know, a lot of times, women just interpret that as there was no chemistry. But what they don't realize a lot of times is it's because the guy was too passive. He didn't actually make a move. Not to say that, you know, some moves are rejected, obviously, but you have to kind of play the balance. But he has to try for it. If he's not trying for it, there's almost guaranteed there's going to be no chemistry. You know what I mean? Like, am I wrong in saying that?

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, I think from a woman's perspective, the perfect balance would be like flirty comments with a little bit of sexual tension, not outright sexual remarks, absolutely. And then, like, yeah, I don't think any woman really has a problem with a guy she's going on a date with attempting to kiss her. But it's just if it was overbearing or the guy got upset and caused a scene. So, I think it is like a balance to it, and like that in itself is like a mastery. That's what guys have to master. Women need to master girl game, which is different. Guys need to master flirting and adding the sexual tension without being outright sexual, right? Because that can turn a woman off too. And, you know, attempting kissing or whatever on the first date, but then also knowing when to back off and not making it weird or him getting angry, like that.

John: Right, exactly. Yeah, I agree 100%. So, I would say starting out, as far as even asking the girl on the date, right? Usually, what's going to happen nowadays is it's going to occur over text, right? An app, dating app, but still, you know, I mean, obviously still words. You know, from the very beginning, if you see an attractive girl and you want to go talk to her, go and talk to her. Stop being a wuss. Just do it, right? You know, and if you do talk to her and you get her number, spend some time actually talking to her. And just get the number and then run away and be, you know, 'cause you want to actually set some idea, some plan. But that's also kind of like some mystery, you know, like talking to somebody and then going somewhere else for the night and then bumping back into them. Like, yeah, you know. Or like, that's what I'm talking about. Don't just go up to the girl, get her phone number, and then like you just run away like you're like, "I got the number, okay, now," 'cause she's never going to text you back. But let's say that you're at the stage of you're texting the girl. So, the number one mistake, I'll give two, number one or two mistakes. Number one and number two is, don't text her too much before the date. You should have a few texts, you know, that are funny, flirty. Maybe you talk, you say something that you said when you're in person, like an inside joke or something that you said on the dating app or whatever, and make it a little bit, you know, casual but nothing serious, no interview questions. And then set the date. That's number one. And then don't keep on talking to her. A little thing here, maybe a picture here, a little something, something like that.

Nicole: Well, because I would say that women do need to vet a little bit. I'm not saying interview him before you even go on a date, but I do think women need to test the waters a little bit and kind of see what this guy is all about. We kind of did that, well, in a way. But yes, that's important because our first interaction, as we've said, is me messaging you, and I was like, "You look nice, but your profile's douchy." So, you know, there was some back and forth, and like, that was important to me. At the same time, I didn't say it to you because I was like testing you. Your profile was douchy, but at the same time, your response to that, and from then on, gave me a read of you, right? And that determined how you would probably be if we went on a date, and if I had to be like, "No," you know, like shut you down, how you would respond. So, like, I'm not telling women to go and message guys and insult them for some reason. But I mean, at the same time, if the guy's got a douchy profile, just be like, "Hey, like, you look nice, but your profile is a little douchy." And you might realize that how he responds also will give you an indication of how this guy's going to act, right? But what I'm saying is, like, we had that little bit, and then I am very team get some sort of social media because even when I was dating, so many guys, surprisingly, would use 10-year-old photos. And then you'd go on their Instagram, and they would look so different. Like, they talk about women catfishing guys, but they don't talk about guys catfishing women. Like, women do talk about it to other women, but we don't even put on blast the catfish dude. It happens for sure. Yeah, but I think also when you do that, you can kind of see what they're posting, mhm, and get a little bit more information without having to have full-blown conversations. And that's the detective, the, you know, EXA detect. But man, should still, again, we had some playful banter.

John: I think that's good. But again, it's more, let's set the date. You're going to have more of the conversation on the date. You don't want to become pen pals because, again, you want to have the element of mystery. Because what happens a lot of times is the way that guys will ruin a date before it even starts is they'll overly talk to the girl. They'll talk about all, they'll maybe talk for hours back and forth on text, or they'll get on the phone. And then, at this point, all that anticipation that she had about, "I wonder what this guy is going to be like? I wonder," you know, the butterflies that she had in her stomach, she already kind of knows you. And maybe she does even like you, but there, the tension there is gone. So then she doesn't feel the need to go on the date. It makes it awkward 'cause you already talked about so much stuff, right? And how's it going to be like, "I like the texting. I don't know if I like this person in person." Whereas it's like, don't do that. Don't make that mistake. Instead, let her think, you know, let her be excited to go on the date to really meet you. Have a little bit of playful banter that's flirty so that she's excited about that. She's like, "Oh, this guy," you know, she's amping you up in her mind. Whereas the more that you talk, the more you're revealing yourself, and you're getting rid of the mystery.

Nicole: Well, you said that, right. Got me thinking maybe these nice guys like texting because they can appear more confident than in person, and that can also make it weird.

John: When you actually meet up, it's different because the energy can be very different in person. I understand where you're coming from. It's a delicate balance because women should be vetting more, as we've talked about in other episodes. You need to ask some things and try to get some sort of vibe, even if it's like us using our detective skills. But I do agree with you that if anybody, man or woman, is texting for so long, asking so many questions, then you lose a lot of the mystery, and the date's kind of pointless. It almost can ruin it because people can act differently over text than in person.

Nicole: Yeah, and men need to not spill all the beans. There are those two opposing forces. She's going to try and get you to talk more, and as a man, you have to not talk too much. You have to give her enough so she feels safe and there's a connection, but don't give her all that she wants. And the second mistake is related to the first one: don't get sexual on the text before the date. A lot of guys will do this, and a lot of women will respond, and then all the mystery is gone. The hype is built so high, and when you actually meet, you're not going to live up to it.

John: Exactly. Even if she flirts a little bit, you might flirt back, but it's light. If she gets a bit more forward, you make it clear you're not that type of guy. You cut it off so that you don't go there, even if she's trying to.

Nicole: Because a woman will get fulfilled from sexting and then think, "Well, that was fun, and I'm done with this guy." That happens. And then the guy's like, "What happened? She was so into me." But it's because there's no anticipation left at this point.

John: Right. Men view it from their perspective. If a woman's coming on hard, and you're like, "Whoa, slow down there, lady. I'm a gentleman," that's going to make her more attracted to you, not turn you off. But men think, "If I get denied, that upsets me." But with women, they're not going to be upset with you for not being sexual back.

Nicole: Exactly. And part of girl game is also saying similar things. A real way to hook a guy is to lean on the sexual part but not give it to them. It's like teasing. You're also vetting him because if he takes the bait, then you're like, "This guy's desperate." But if he's like, "We'll talk more about this in person," or if he's cautious, it shows he's probably experienced, has options, and is fun. Plus, if he's overly eager, then you're like, "Okay, well, obviously I can completely dominate this guy with my sexuality."

John: True. That's what all the game is, understanding these things from both the male and the female perspective.

Nicole: Going back to our timeline, I don't think a woman should let a man pick her up on the first date. He should potentially offer, which is a gentlemanly thing to do, but for safety reasons, it's not a good idea to have a stranger know where you live. You can politely decline.

John: Meet you there now. If you've gone on like two or three dates, then it's different. Obviously, you're somewhat involved, you like him, this is going somewhere. It still might not go all the way to a relationship, but it's going somewhere. Then I feel like you have better judgment of, you know, if this person comes and picks me up and has my address, they're not going to murder me.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree with that. People always, I feel like when we've done things before about the murdering stuff, they're like, "This is ridiculous." But this is how women think, and they should be safe to some extent because there are a lot of guys who will disguise their true intentions and how they are in order to kind of chameleon in order to get a woman to like them. And then when a woman rejects them, then how do they act? Because a lot of guys don't. That's why a lot of women are afraid. That's why I have a boyfriend when she doesn't really have a boyfriend. That's why these things... I have to go to the bathroom, and she disappears. It's not because it's hard to say no. You don't know how they're going to respond. And it is really true that there are a lot of men who are really creepy and will not handle rejection very well at all, you know, especially in a private setting where they're not in public. You really don't know what they're going to do.

John: Yeah, and a lot there's a lot of guys that are sexually frustrated and so tired of being rejected by women. So, it is true. Like, you should be... So I would say that I wanted to add that in there. Like, some women are still going to do it. I just think it's a good way, it's a good little test without being a test, right? And also safe for a woman.

Nicole: I agree because, like you said, if a guy's like, "Why won't you let me come pick you up?" or whatever, he might have some anger problems. Not that I think a guy would do that outright. I don't think that's the majority response. But it's also another indication of he might have this underlying anger sort of thing. And we talked about men's anger before, and it's a very scary and real thing. So I just wanted to throw that in there because I feel like that's the next segment, right? Like, you scheduled a date, talked about scheduling a date, and then the next part is, "Who am I going to come pick you up, or are we going to meet here?" So I would say, women, first date, don't let a guy come pick you up. Better safe than sorry.

John: I'm with you. That makes sense. As far as setting the date for the guy, right, how should he set the date? Kind of... Well, yeah, what kind of date should he set? And like I said, I mean, if your plans are a guy, like, you might be thinking very short term, and it might just be you're just going to go and meet for drinks. And I think that's fine if that's what you want to do. But if you do want to set more of a date, and perhaps a lot of times the guy should be going for the easy date, right? And maybe the woman pushes back, it's like, "Ah, I don't just do drinks." That might be a good girl game thing. But a guy maybe should be saying, "Okay, let's just do something very casual," just and not because you're a cheapskate. A lot of guys are like, "Oh, I don't want to pay for dinners and stuff like that." But because that's what I was going to say, you don't have an investment that you're making at this point as a guy. You don't want to overly invest to start. However, I think that if you know, you can't go wrong with, if you do want to do a full date and dinner. But if you're going to do that, then you should do it the right way, and you definitely need to be making some moves. Because if you just at the drink date, that already is sending a message. It already tends to send a message that you are interested. I mean, it is more casual, but I do think that men lean more towards that these days for what you said, that they don't want to pay for dinner because, see, that's not a good reason. I've told people I don't really like drink dates because, even back when I drank, like, would go out, I just didn't enjoy doing it very often. And so I would turn them down. But me and you went on a drink date, right? So it's not to say that I would never go on a drink date. But a lot of guys now push that really hard because of the investment part, because of the like, "I don't want to pay for a dinner," even if he likes her. Because what you said is that don't talk too much to her, you know? And so he doesn't know her enough to be like, "I really like this girl." He would just know she's hot. So he doesn't have any extra investment into it to be like, "I'll take her on a date because she's this way." Does that make sense?

Nicole: Right, yeah, no, it makes sense. So I do feel like it's more of a money thing these days than a casual thing.

John: Yeah, it shouldn't be a money thing. It should be like you're being casual because you're sending that... I'm looking for a casual... You know what I mean? But again, if you do set up a full date, which I'm not opposed to a guy doing that, and maybe that is good for a second date, but even it could be a first date, then the guy should be setting it. He should be giving all the instructions ahead of time. He shouldn't say, "Hey, what are you doing on Friday night?" It's like, "Oh, where do you want to go?" or just no, none of that. Instead, he should be saying, "Look, how about I'll meet you at such and such place at 7 o'clock on Thursday night?" He's saying the time and the location for her to meet. He's not giving a lot more details about that. But he should have something more planned. So you're not just going to go to dinner; you're going to meet at the park, and you're going to walk around the lake, and then you're going to go to dinner. Like that, when a guy plans it, and it's not like, "Well, where do you want to go?" You got to plan. What do you want to eat? The man should be making all the decisions and planning it and leading her through the date, through the experience, creating an experience for her. That's what is going to produce the best result.

Nicole: Which I think can still ask some basic questions like, "When do you get off work?" or "Is this day okay?" Like the evening time because people have schedules. So you can't just throw something out there. I mean, you could, but be prepared that someone's going to be like, "Oh, I can't do that this going."

John: And in which case then, you know, asking like what type of food do you like or something like that. Like, are you feeling like, "I wanted to try this Mexican place, do you want to do it?" So, like, you're still choosing but also, you know, asking because some people don't like Mexican food. I don't know why, but you know. So, I think you still have to ask key little things, but if you're saying is right though, to just, you know, ask your little questions if you want and then make the plans because women are very attracted to a guy that just makes the plans, right? You make the reservation, you make the plan, you tell her where to be, you know, potentially what to wear if it's, you know, oh, you're going that far. I mean, hey, sometimes it's good to, if a guy was like, "Wear this," I'd be like, "What, are we going to match like a matching couple on our first date?" Then he says, "You'll see, you'll see why," you know, or even that's what I like, "I would like to see you in a dress."

Nicole: Yeah, but here's the thing, right? I think that would work better date three because I would be like, "I don't even know you, and you're going to tell me what to wear because that's what you like? I don't know you, Mr. Sir." That's fine, then the banter goes back and forth. I mean, if you can take the heat, then go for it, but if you can't take the heat, then you better not do it as a man because she's probably going to come back to you and test you, and then you're going to have to respond well to it without getting upset, right? But it could also be, you know, if it's a mystery, if it's like you don't know what the reservation is and what the restaurant is, "I've got something special planned for us, meet me at this place at 7 o'clock, wear something nice, wear a dress." What, you know, now there's a mystery, you know, because maybe it's a fancy restaurant, maybe it's...

John: Okay, yeah, I guess that makes more sense. I was thinking of like, "Wear a red top and black pants," not that specific. He's styling me now. I haven't even gone on a date with him yet. But you can say, you know, stuff like that. But doing something like that, again, the idea is like to come across different than what other guys do by having a plan, by being not afraid to tell a woman what you want, and you know what that is and what you like. Masculine.

Nicole: That's right, that's what it is, and that's what women like. Even women who are in their masculine, right, they respect you making a plan, setting it up. They will respect that no matter what. Like I said, maybe the wearing something, but when you explained it like, "Wear something nice," that's fine because now you're letting her know that it might be fancy. I was just taking it too literal. But a woman will respect that, even if she's still in her masculine, which she's probably going to be because it's your first date. She will still respect that, and it will attract her more towards you because, again, it's allowing her to not have that responsibility. And a lot of men put that responsibility still on women when they're making the first date.

John: Right, right. So it's like a breath of fresh air for her to match with somebody and have some banter and be like, "Have the message pop up and he's like, 'Meet me here at this time for something nice.'" She's like, "I don't have to think about anything."

Nicole: Right, yeah. And she feels like, "Okay, this guy, he knows what he wants, he goes for what he wants, he's not afraid, he's not going to be iffy, like asking all these questions, and like, he just says what he wants." That's important too because if you make it to a point where you guys get into a relationship, she'll remember those things and realize, "He wants me," and that means more, that like, "He chose me. I was just a girl who ended up liking him, and he wanted to settle down with anybody." So it's like, if he knows what he wants and he chose me, then I'm providing him something into his life that he can't get anywhere else.

John: Right, yeah. And he's setting the frame for the relationship already by taking the lead. He's saying, "Okay, I'll tell you where we're going to go and what to do. I've taken the initiative, I've taken charge of this situation," and so she's more likely to follow your lead on the date because you've already set that frame in place, which is important.

Nicole: Right, which is going to hit her attraction trigger, which is going to make it, there's already chemistry at that point. Like, there's much more chance of that because now you're acting in the masculine, so she's more likely to show up at the date acting in her feminine. She already sees because a woman does have to, in a way, look up to a guy, right? And a guy that already knows and says, you know, seems more experienced, seems like, "Okay, he knows where to go, he knows what to do," that she feels more comfortable. Well, she's more likely to look up to a masculine man because she's having to be in her masculine. And so if she sees somebody that's taken over that and is owning that and showing her that he can be masculine, yeah, she can almost start to be like, "Okay, this person is going to take care of these things for me. I won't have to." So it almost has her start relaxing into her feminine from the very beginning.

John: Right, which, if you want that dynamic, which everybody should want, is a good way to even start, you know, from the very beginning, very first date, start having that dynamic, start showing her your masculine, show her that she can relax into her feminine, and you have it handled because that's just going to be better, right, going forward.

Nicole: Exactly. So, I agree with that. So then, I guess I would say the next, well, I mean, planning the date, you should have a plan, even if you're going for drinks, you should have a plan, whether that be go for drinks and then try to get her to come to your place or whatever you're going to do, like, have a plan. And if you're doing it more of a formal date, then it should be more than one activity. It's not just going for dinner, it's not just going for a movie. You're going to plan a couple of different things that you're going to do to make it something that is an experience because women, again, even in dating profiles, right, a lot of women will select men based on the lifestyle, based on what they are going to picture themselves. I mean, tell me if you disagree with this, but I think a lot of women picture themselves in that man's life and what would their life be like if they were in his life. So that's why, like with the dating photos, having showing you in different places, doing different things, having a fun, exciting lifestyle is what's attractive to a woman, not just pics of you, you know, ripped in the mirror with your selfie shirtless. So, I guess you're right.

John: It's heavily on that, but it is maybe subconscious more so than conscious that you do want to see a guy who has more than just selfies. To be honest, when I would see a guy with just straight selfies, I'd be like, something's off, like maybe he's a narcissist, and that's me judging.

Nicole: Which I try not to do, but you know, it would be a red flag. I want to see not the perfectly curated selfies or like you doing selfies all the time. I want to see you and your pet, you on a trip where you wanted to go. Sure, if you want to throw a gym photo in there, you take care of yourself, right? If you put that in there. So, I think it's more about the variety. I don't know if women see it through a lens of putting in the person's life. They might, right? But for me, it was more of, I want to see what more of the things this person does, and it doesn't have to be perfect photos, but it needs to show some humanness to it, right? And I think that's kind of safe for women to also try to find a guy who might be looking for something more serious if he's showing more of his life, right?

John: I feel like the selfie guy, you know, he's probably looking for one thing because he's thinking about himself, and his pictures show it. Maybe I'm just analyzing this really hard, but I would say if some scientist somewhere figured out if selfie straight-up selfie guy on dating apps was only looking for one thing, I would think that that's probably the case. Whereas the guy who's been like, here's my dog, and here's my... because that's almost like inviting you into his life without giving away all the information. It's still mysterious. You don't know what his dog's name is, you don't know if that's even his dog, and like he went to Thailand, and like why did he go, how long did you stay there, what was going on, you know? So, it's you still have the mystery, and women can still like decide, try to figure out, oh, what does this photo mean, and things like that.

Nicole: So, I think that maybe it's not necessarily like this is how it fit into his life because I don't think women think that way from the very beginning because you don't know if he's going to be masculine or not, you don't know if he will take the lead, and you can trust him. So, it's kind of, I would say, bad for women to look at a guy's photo and be like, oh, we could be in Thailand together, and we could be with his dog because you don't know yet. And some women, but subconsciously go down that road, and then they try to make him be the one because she's already imagined her life from photos, but subconsciously. What I'm saying, and again, to bring it back to the date, is that create an interesting show, you have an interesting life, create some interesting, even invite her on something that you're doing already in your life, like to go, you know, maybe you row boats or whatever. Invite her to do some activity, something that you already do, that brings her into your world because you want to bring a woman, or do something new together. They say that that's actually a good bonding experience, to try something new that you both haven't done. So, but it is good if a man can figure out a domain where he can demonstrate mastery or competency because that is always a good thing. You know, if you're good at something, invite a woman to come along with you. If you like, it's good to see, like, is this guy going to try really hard to learn this new thing, like is he just going to give up and throw a hissy fit? So, like the opposite is the same too, you know. By doing something new, it also shows like you're more open to trying new things and spontaneous, and you know, things like that. So, I agree, I think that that's, I think either way you can't go wrong. But I mean, have something planned, like, and have it be somewhat intricate, not just a simple dinner, you know. I agree with that.

John: And then have the full, you know, what are you going to do, what situation, you know, if things go well, how are things going to end, what, you know, have your plan in place as a man, right? And then I would say, oh, uh, before the date, do not text to confirm that she's going to be there.

Nicole: Oh, okay. And here's why. A lot of women, just like you said, they're like, I don't want to have to meet someone new, and like they're already thinking I'm going to back out on it, even if they like the guy. They're still thinking I'm going to back out on it because it's, I don't want to get dressed up, and I'm just going to be disappointed, and their mind's going with all these things. So, if you ask them, are you going to be there, you give them the opportunity to say, uh, actually, I'm kind of sick today, or whatever, to make some kind of excuse. Instead, assume they'll be there on the day of and confirm it by asking a question like, are you planning on ubering or driving your car? I just wanted to know because of the parking situation.

John: Because I was about to be like, not good advice, yeah. Because if you don't say anything, I've been on plenty of dates that are set up, and some, the guy has not like said anything about it, and I'm just not gone because I'm like, I haven't heard from him, yeah, we set this up, but like, are you alive, right?

Nicole: No, it should be assuming the close, assuming she's going to show up, not asking if she's going to show up. I would say even be like, see you at 7 is fine. It's confirming but without asking, like you're saying, see you there, right. And if she wants to come up with an excuse, then that tells you that. But I don't, I agree, I don't think you should be like, are you going to be there. But I think either asking a question like you said, like something specific, like are you ubering, or like, you know, or even telling her there's a parking lot on the back side of the thing, just so you know. Something like that, or even see you at 7. The reason why see you at 7 is not good is because you need to ask some kind of question that requires a response because see you at 7 can be ignored, right? Are you driving or ubering cannot be ignored. If she ignores you, you're not even showing up. If she's ignoring, then you don't show up.

John: I know, but well, if you say see you at 7 and you don't get a reply from that, what do you do as a man? Do you, you don't go at all because she didn't reply to see you at 7?

Nicole: No, like you said, see you at 7, it doesn't necessarily require a response. Now, she shows up, and you're not there, but you told her you were going to see her at 7. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's so much better to ask a question like, you know, or just say, hey, I was going to show up a few minutes early, do you want me to order you a drink before you get here, or what?

John: Anything, any kind of question that you can ask that's assuming that she's going to be there is just a better way to go and not to waste your time. Because if she doesn't answer the question, like "Are you driving or Ubering?" then you assume she's not going, right? Because she definitely saw it. And guys, women always see every single text you text. They never did not see your text. I mean, unless they're working and they just aren't on their phone, but they see your text. You know, like a day doesn't go by and then it's like, "Oh, you know she saw your text."

Nicole: Yeah, she's not in. If she chose not to respond, she purposely chose not to respond.

John: Yeah, I guess you're nicer than me. Because if someone said, "See you at 7:00," and they didn't say anything, I would not be seeing them at 7:00. Even if they showed up, I'd be like, "You didn't say anything." You know, nowadays you can even just like heart the text message or thumbs up. Even that would be some sort of response, and I'd be like, "Okay, I'm going." But if they didn't say anything and they didn't react to the text, I'd be like, "Oh, I'm not going at 7:00 either then." I guess again, it's something that can be ignored, and you could get flaked on. Whereas if you ask a specific question, a person's much less likely. Like the rudeness of ignoring a "See you at 7:00" because you're flaking on someone is not to the rudeness level.

Nicole: But I think, too, the key for everybody is to just... You don't know this person, so if they don't show up, if they ghost you, if they flake on you, yeah, it's fine. Like, don't take it personally. No, it's fine. Yeah, and there's a lot of reasons. Like I said, you know, because it's them, not you. If they're just ignoring you, that's rude, like you said. So then, you've got the date. Like, what do you do when you show up on the date as the guy?

John: Well, but I mean, I think the big thing there is to, as a man, keep it light and flirty and funny. Don't talk about serious stuff. I mean, yeah, you're going to have a little bit of questions about, but what, how many sisters and brothers do you have? What do you do at your work? All that, no, that's not first date stuff. Like if it comes up, ask them what kind of bug they are, right? Something silly. Always say that one. But one of my friends went on a first date with her, I'm pretty sure it's her now boyfriend, and she was like, "What kind of pasta are you?" And he gave a really good answer. He said he was bow tie pasta because he's, you know, a distinguished gentleman. And I was like, shoot, that's so much better than like, "What do you do for work?" You know, it's a fun way to get to know somebody in a different sort of light. And it's funny. You're having fun. Like, I don't know any couple who doesn't want to laugh together and have fun. So if you ask a question like that, it's just going to make the situation light and airy and fun and have you guys both kind of open up. Because a first date can be nerve-wracking. You can be a little nervous. Yeah, and so by asking light, airy, fun questions like that, it helps everybody kind of let their guard down and be more authentic. I'm not saying tell your whole life story, but it just creates a better environment for something to blossom and turn into something.

Nicole: Exactly, yeah. No, I agree 100%. Yeah, it's just, you just have to keep it light and not try and get into all the... Keep the mystery, but you can still have fun. You're still talking. You're just doing flirting, not serious talking about serious stuff. A few things come up, question about this or that, or what do you do for work, but then you get off that subject very quickly.

John: Yeah, right. Because you want to kill a date, she asks you what you do for work, and then you explain it to her, right? And now it's a very nonsexual thing. Now it's a very platonic thing that you've created because you... But if you tease her and you flirt with her, and you guys are going back and forth, right? You tell her, you know, she's like, "What, are you really a proctologist?" Like, "Yeah, no, seriously." Like, now you're having some fun with it, right? And then, yeah, and then you drop the act and say, "Okay, no, seriously, I'm a computer software developer," you know, something. Like, you're going to find out their siblings' names, more detail about what they do if you guys continue to date. You don't need to figure all those things out on the first date. The first date should be about having fun, like you said, right? Because you can figure out all the other questions more dates in. The first date is about like meeting them in person. That's a huge deal alone. You've just seen pictures, right? Like, now you get to see what they actually look like in person, right? How their demeanor is because you can't tell that with text, right? And like, if they're fun, if you guys can have a good time, you know, things like that. So that's what the first date is more so for. It's like actually meeting, being actually in each other's space.

Nicole: Yeah, and then have, like, seeing if you guys can have a good time and laugh and, you know, make it a fun experience. And when you go out on a date, guys hate this, but it's because, I don't know why people hate this so much, but it's trust me, this is better, this works better. Do not, if you can, like, scope out the area where you're going to go ahead of time. If you can, you know, if you're going to the place that you're familiar with, that you know, and do not try to avoid sitting across like we're sitting across now. Instead, sit on the same side. That might be sitting on bar stools. It might be finding a cafe where there's like a booth seating. And yeah, people like, "Oh, it's so embarrassing. Waiters and waitresses are like, 'Oh, those people that sit next to each other instead of...'" No, you know, do it. Okay, because it becomes more intimate, right? And now you've got the ability, you can be talking, put your arm, you can put your arm around, you could show her something on your phone and put your arm around her. You remember that move, you know, you could put your hand on her knee, you know, for a second, you know, and see, you know. So you can actually start to get a little bit physical. That will actually create that chemistry because when you're sitting right across from each other like that, yeah, you can have a good conversation, you know, but yeah, that's about the best you can do. But you're really, you know, again, a lot of for guys need to understand is that women go based on their emotions. How did you make her feel? That's the most important thing. And it's like, you could be the perfect guy, right? All the, you had a great conversation, all these things, but for some reason, she didn't.

Speaker 1: Feel it, and the reason why she didn't feel it was because there was nothing. There was no touch, there was no closeness. Like, you didn't create that sexual tension. And so, even though you were the perfect match for her, she doesn't like you because she's going based on her emotions completely. And so, you have to spike those emotions, which also means that you need to put a move. You need to do something. You need to put your hand on her knee or, you know, if she's not comfortable with you touching her on the first date, she's not going to be comfortable with you. Like, you're finding out information so you don't waste time, right? Because if she's into you, and again, I'm not saying to be super sexually aggressive and to not listen to the signals that she's giving, but you should be going for a kiss before the end of the night, right? Things should be going that well because if you...

Speaker 1: Go on a date with a girl and she's not comfortable or feeling like at all that you feel like you could kiss her before the end of the night, it's probably not going to be working out. So, you're just finding out ahead of time, right? It doesn't mean, even if you go for the kiss and she gives you the cheek, that's fine. At least you went for it. And a lot of times, women, again, you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, but in my experience, women will say, "Wow, this guy actually has some balls." And then maybe he goes for the kiss the second time after waiting a little bit, and now she's into it because she's like, "How did he handle that rejection? He didn't even care. He didn't make a big deal of it, and now he still has the balls to go for it again." Okay, third time, I wouldn't go a third time. Like, I agree that she might be like, "Oh, you know, he made a move and he didn't get angry or act crazy, and so, you know, she might let you go the second time, but do not do three times because...

Speaker 1: At that point, the ship has sailed. It's not for you. Like, if you have to try three times, yeah, that's... yeah. And I'm not saying strike you're out, like, and I'm not saying that it's your fault, right? That's what I feel like both men and women need to realize when you're dating, especially like First Dates, don't take it personally, right? So many people get discouraged from dating because they take it personally. "Oh, this person didn't like me." Like, did you even really like them, right? Probably not. So just chalk it up to, we're not compatible, right? This is not going to work out. And that is so much better. It'll motivate you to keep putting yourself out there and keep dating to find the person that's right for you rather than being like, "Oh well, this guy who I didn't even like didn't like me, right?" That's fine. People are entitled to not like you, and you didn't like them, so why are you expecting them to like you? Just chalk it up to like, it's nobody's fault besides being incompatible with each other and go find the person that is right for you. I feel like that also deters a lot of people, both men and women, 'cause they're like, "Oh well, this person didn't like me, and I went on a date, but did you even like them?" No, not really, right? Why are you upset then? Like, it's not personal. Like, everybody's just out here trying to find their life partner, and you want to make sure you made the right choice. And so, I wouldn't care that somebody, even that I liked on the first date, told me, "Hey, you know, I just don't feel it." It's the first date. He doesn't owe me anything at all. Like, even the second, he doesn't owe me anything until he's my boyfriend, really, in my opinion, right?

Speaker 2: I agree. But, you know, there's conversations leading up to that. However, I think one thing that would be beneficial to both men and women is not taking dates personally, especially First Dates. Don't let them keep you from putting yourself back out there. It's not you, and it's not them. It's just you guys together aren't it, right?

Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah. No, I agree 100%. Yeah, we still probably could have went a long time, but I think we need to... yeah, I think that... I mean, that's kind of the... I think that's the end of it, really. It's, you know, those are really the things, right? I mean, I felt like they were good, beneficial aspects for both. And then, like I said, I mean, the last, I would say, is like, you know, don't wait till the good night kiss to try to do the... then it's just... it's too late at that point. Like, she's already formed an assessment of who you are as a man, and not making moves is... you, but maybe not if you've put your, you know, hand on her leg. Yeah, if you've done her in, you know, then I think it, you could still... you had to at least got physical, right? To a degree, yeah. Don't just, like, not touch each other and then go for a kiss and, like, beeline for it. It's not good, yeah. No, but, yeah, if you do that as a man, then you'll come across in the right way, and you'll, you know, and it again, a lot of it does come down to a man doing the right things on the date, and the woman is... is there, and, you know, there's not a lot that, you know, that she's going to do. She's going to be the one actually doing the selection, really, right? Yeah, so...

Speaker 2: All right, well, I guess what's our thing for this week? What is our thing, our relationship thing for this week?

Speaker 1: So, it's interesting. So, I was thinking about this. I mean, we didn't really have very much, really, conflicts or anything, or, you know, really large discussions, but there was a kind of a silly incident that occurred.

Speaker 2: You better not be talking about what I think you're going to talk about.

Speaker 1: Where Nicole had the dog on the bed, oh okay, and I came home, and I was like, I could tell that the dog was on the bed, and, you know, the dog's not supposed to be on the bed, Toto, and I asked her about it, and she kind of didn't really tell me the truth about it. And it was interesting because I didn't have a negative reaction to it, but like, I went for a run the next day, and I may or may not have taken a couple of bites of a mushroom.

Speaker 2: But you're just like talking about your mushroom.

Speaker 1: But it did... I mean, it... but what was really cool was I wrote Nicole this nice long text about, you know, about how I'll never leave her and about... but what I realized was that she's human, right? And that we're all human. And I realized that I guess I should address you, that you're human, and that, yeah, you're going to do things like... like we all have darkness in us. We all have snakes inside, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, you're beautiful and wonderful and so much good, but there's also some bad, right? You know what I mean? And it's like, I don't just love the good. I love...

John: All of you are 100% right because it is one thing to love a person just for their good qualities, but to really truly love a person, you have to love them despite knowing that there are bad things. Not that I think there's a lot of bad things, but I'm just saying, like, I know I have bad things. As a human, I just had this really insightful thought. It's kind of funny how Nicole not telling me the full truth about something could actually make me open up to love her even more. And I just had that revelation. I was like, "Wow." And I should have told you the truth.

Nicole: Yeah, but you had always had Toto on the bed before we met, so it's, and in the instance you were talking about, I heard something downstairs and I'm like, "Come here with me." So to me, it wasn't a big deal, but I knew it was to you. But in that moment, I still wanted that comfort, and I felt bad. Then I was like, "I don't want him to be mad for this 20 minutes that she was on the bed when I was paranoid." So, I did lie, which is wrong. It's wrong no matter what, but like you said, I wasn't intentionally trying to be malicious. And I'm going to occasionally have a moment where I'm like, "Oh, I don't want to upset him over this little thing." I don't lie about the big things; that's not acceptable. And we shouldn't lie about the little things either, but we are human. That's what I'm trying to say. I love you for the human that you are. You don't have to be perfect, and I don't expect perfect. Whatever the darkest part of your soul is, I still love. And that's the thing that I think, you know, when I married you, that's what I meant by that. No matter how dark the darkest part of your soul is, I love exactly.

John: And I think that is all part of the thing that just hit me. I felt it in that moment, in that reaction, that I didn't have to, that I was like, "Oh yeah, well, she's human. Humans sometimes lie." Not that you should try to lie or justify, but at the same time, humans sometimes lie. Do you love a person because of all of the good things, or do you love a person because of who they are? And that's where you can tell the difference. It just made me realize that I need to do an even better job of doing that every day.

Nicole: But you did love me. I feel like you didn't change. I feel like you just maybe realized how to articulate how you always felt because I've always felt the same about you. I love every single thing about you. And we've talked about that in other episodes too, that that was like a first for me. And I think, in order to have the relationship that we have, it has to be that you love the good and the bad, right? Because those things are going to show up. Life's not always going to be good; life's not always going to be bad. Can you handle both? Can you handle the circumstances that the person's going to go through? Because just like life, sometimes they're in a good mood, sometimes they're in a bad mood. You have to love the person you're with through all those things. And it's not hard to do that. It shouldn't be. It should be easier when you have that realization that I'm talking about. That you have snakes inside of you, I have snakes inside of me. As a person, when you realize you yourself have not every thought you're proud of, you've done things, you will do things in the future that you might not be proud of. Can someone love you knowing those things? Or do you have to hide those things? And it's like, you won't really truly experience what the true depth of love is until you feel like you're with someone where you don't have to hide those things.

John: Yeah, obviously, you don't want to do bad things and have bad thoughts, or whatever. That's fine, but do you have to hide those things, or does a person accept you 100% as you are, even because they know who you are deep down? And I think what also is important is the people that we are. We're constantly trying to be better. So, I think it's easier to look at the bad things and be like, "This isn't going to spiral." Like, things are going to happen. You're not always going to do the right thing; I'm not always going to do the right thing. But at the end of the day, both of us are people that try to be the best version of ourselves. And so, I think that aspect is important too because you might meet somebody, and they have, you know, everybody has their stuff, their bad stuff. But it's like the people who don't necessarily care, want to work on themselves in other ways, I feel like that could also perpetuate, which is a little scary. You know, it's one thing to know that all humans are going to have their good and bad sides inside of them. Nobody's perfect, but I do feel like what helps the realization of accepting somebody fully is also the other parts as well too. It's kind of hard to explain. I don't know if you can totally have it with someone that's very fixed mindset, right? Because those things might just accumulate or take over their whole life that they did something bad. Because I also think it's important to be able to forgive yourself for doing the wrong thing, for sure, absolutely. And that goes with a growth mindset sort of thing too. So, I made it more complicated, but it's okay. I thought it was a good little tidbit to add in.

Nicole: But yeah, like I said, I love you not because you're perfect, but because you're better than perfect. Because it is by those things, because you're real, because you're human. And that's the thing. Because if you love someone who's perfect, then when they're not, you won't, right? And that's the thing. So, better than perfect. That's it. See you next week. Through every fault, we find a way.