Nicole [00:00:00]: The way that you view things, like you said, interpret things, especially in conflict, definitely matters. And you can do it. You have that power. You have that choice.

John [00:00:11]: What's helped me in general has been doing hard things. Running marathons, fasting, doing one meal a day. If you're like 15, 20 miles into a run and you're really, really hungry because you haven't eaten all day, then. Then when you're in normal life, you're like, okay, I'm not. I just ate and I'm not in a 20 mile run, like feeling all that pain. So whatever else life throws at you doesn' nearly as bad. You know, it creates a contrast for you. Beyond the perfect we discover through our flaws we complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you two how. How two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. Tripping on my words, too eager to spit it all out there.

Nicole [00:01:07]: That's okay.

John [00:01:08]: Yeah. So today, yeah, I thought we would do an episode on what to do when you're hurt in a relationship when your partner's hurt. Like how to respond. And kind of just some of the challenges with that based on my own failures. Not, not that it's like super bad, but just that that's something I've struggled with.

Nicole [00:01:31]: So I guess to clarify.

John [00:01:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:34]: Because you said what to do when your partner's hurt, but I think you mean like.

John [00:01:39]: Yeah, when you're hurt.

Nicole [00:01:40]: Yeah, like how to express your hurt properly maybe is a better way to phrase it.

John [00:01:47]: Yeah. What to do when you get hurt.

Nicole [00:01:49]: When you get hurt.

John [00:01:49]: Yeah, that's.

Nicole [00:01:50]: I think you've phrased it seemed like what to do when your partner's hurt.

John [00:01:55]: Yeah, I mean, that's a good one too. So. But it kind of goes together. So we can talk about kind of both of those.

Nicole [00:02:01]: That's true.

John [00:02:01]: Topics. But. But yeah. What, what, what do you think about the.

Nicole [00:02:06]: Oh, you're throwing it.

John [00:02:07]: About the subject. I mean, I've got a lot of stuff to say, but, you know.

Nicole [00:02:11]: Yeah, I mean, I'm nowhere perfect at doing this myself either. But I feel like when you're hurt, I think you need to take a moment before you respond or say anything.

John [00:02:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:28]: Because you're more likely to do it the right way if you do that.

John [00:02:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:32]: If you just like the instant you're hurt, you're like, oh, my God, I can't believe you did this to me. Or whatever. Like your. That emotion that you're feeling is still so new, it can make you act more impulsively and say things you don't mean, even though I hate to even say that. And I say that in air quotes because I think you do mean it, but, like, you are maybe saying it in a more harsh way.

John [00:03:01]: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:03:02]: And, like, you can't just act like you didn't do that, if that makes sense, which a lot of people try to do. They'll say, like, hurtful things like, I hate you, and then be like, oh, I was just upset. I didn't mean it.

John [00:03:12]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:13]: So that's why I put air quotes around that, because I think you're more likely to respond in a way like that that you think is out of your control because you're just going instantly from that initial hurt and allowing it to spill all over everybody. So I think taking a moment to kind of, like, feel what you're feeling. And I actually read just some random, like, thing that popped up on Instagram this morning that was talking about how, like, your initial feeling, whether it's anger or sadness or whatever, is only going to last about 60 to 90 seconds.

John [00:03:51]: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nicole [00:03:52]: And so taking that time.

John [00:03:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:57]: To feel it, not try to, like, shun it either. Where if you're like, oh, that hurt me not being like, no, it didn't. Stop being so sensitive or something in your own mind or whatever, you know? Or not, like, lashing out in those moments and instead just, like, processing it and then kind of like letting it be what it is can also. And not, like, adding to it.

John [00:04:20]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:04:20]: That was the whole point of the post. It was like, it's only gonna last for, like, up to 90 seconds.

John [00:04:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:26]: And then after that, you're causing continuous suffering for days or weeks or years.

John [00:04:31]: Right. The second.

Nicole [00:04:32]: By being like, oh, I can't do anything right. Or, you know, like, they never cared about me to begin with. Like, adding those things to those emotions causes the extended suffering and extended pain and extended lashing out or whatever it might be. So what I try to do as well, too. Or even if I'm in it. And, like, maybe we're having a conversation and I can't, like, completely stop the conversation.

John [00:04:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:00]: I'll kind of, like, be processing it while I'm in it, but not, like, allowing my responses to be influenced. And maybe I am, like, responding a little bit less. Like, I'm still having the conversation with you, but I'm, like, processing while I'm still trying to keep the conversation somewhat going. And then Since I'm doing that internally, I'm trying to figure out what's the best way to bring this up to, to you that is not spilling it onto you.

John [00:05:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:29]: Or, you know, and how can I bring this up in a vulnerable way, not an attacking way? Like, that's what I'm processing while in the midst of it. And I think if you're new to, like, trying to figure out the right way, then maybe you do need to be like, hey, can I have like a minute, two minutes to kind of like process really quick and then continue the conversation. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but I think the more that you try to work on this, the easier it will be. Like I said, like, you can do it while in the conversation.

John [00:06:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:04]: You're not like allowing the thoughts that are just popping up in your head because you're upset to spew out at that point. You're trying to like, pre process them and be like, no, where's the actual hurt here? Where's the actual, like, vulnerable thing? Like, why did this hurt me?

John [00:06:20]: Like, yeah, that's a good question.

Nicole [00:06:22]: You can do these things exactly while you're in the midst of it and internally or maybe even with your partner, like, hey, like, this hurt me and I don't really know why it's bothering me.

John [00:06:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:35]: And that also kind of disarms the situation and like, asks the person to help you in a way too, which is also another like, disarming thing. And like, then you'll feel loved instead of like, hurt or sad or whatever you're feeling.

John [00:06:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:50]: Again, I'm not perfect at doing this, but I feel like I have worked really hard on doing this.

John [00:06:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:58]: And again, like, I don't think I'll ever be perfect at it, but it is beneficial and it's something that I continue to work on because I've seen how it's made our conversations better and shorter.

John [00:07:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:13]: And it makes me feel better about how I'm handling the situation and my growth as like an emotionally mature person.

John [00:07:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:07:22]: And so again, like, I just, I don't want to sit here and act like I'm on some high horse because I don't always do the right thing. I mean, we had a conversation that I'm sure we'll talk about at the end of this where I called you said you're acting like a five year old or something. And I immediately was like, that was wrong. And you were like, you can't say that. And like, that's true. Like, but I did immediately apologize. It does not cancel it out.

John [00:07:46]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:47]: But I knew that, like, I wasn't gonna defend that behavior. Cause it was wrong. And I needed to point it out to not only you, but to myself that I did make a mistake. Like, I should not have said that. And, like, that might seem minuscule to people listening to this, that they say some even more crazy things. But, like, even that felt wrong to me. And it was wrong. It was the wrong way to handle it. And I needed to address it. Not only to you, because I said it to you, but to myself because it was doing myself a disservice by even saying something like that to you, which was like an attack. Again, it's not like calling you names or what? Well, I mean, like, I guess technically calling you names, but, like, it wasn't in the way that I think most people think of it. But even I just use this as an example because, again, like, I make mistakes, but like, recognizing those, not only to the person that you said them to, but to yourself so that you can hold yourself accountable for, like, your healing process and especially, like, your emotional growth and maturity is absolutely necessary.

John [00:08:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:59]: Because now that I've made the mistake and I've owned up to the mistake and I realized that I did do that to you, like, I am going to use that next time to not even have anything like that come out of my mouth and to try not to even have those things pop up in my mind. But they're going to. Especially if this is, like, new again to you. Like, maybe you're used to just, like, spewing your emotions and everything onto people. Like, if you're listening to this. And again, kind of like we talked about in one of our other episodes recently about, you know, talking to each other, community, communicating with each other in love.

John [00:09:38]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:39]: It's the same sort of thing is going to take baby steps.

John [00:09:41]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:09:42]: Right. Like, you can't just go from spewing your emotions onto everybody to not doing that.

John [00:09:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:47]: Because that usually ends in bottling them up and then you just spew them out even worse later. So you have to realize that it's a work in progress. If you make a mistake, don't beat yourself up for it, but apologize to the person.

John [00:09:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:09:59]: Apologize to yourself.

John [00:10:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:01]: And then just use that to continue to grow.

John [00:10:04]: Right. And want those opportunities in order to make those mistakes in order to grow. Right. You know, it's like, even. It's funny because that's what I told you after. After I had responded kind of the wrong way after getting hurt, I was like, well, test me again tomorrow or something. You know, it's like. And then. And then a situation did occur, but it was good because that's what I want. Like, I do want situations to occur where I can put into practice a thing or I can. I can lear. Like, if I. If I haven't learned a lesson yet, haven't perfected that, then I want those opportunities. So. So then I think seeing those as opportunities helps you. Right, Right.

Nicole [00:10:43]: But rather than like, you made a mistake and then now you're shaming yourself.

John [00:10:47]: I think what's helped me a lot too, is just what I've been thinking about things in terms of. I mean, obviously the respond in love to all things, which has been a mantra that I reintroduced into my brain. Because when I just have that mantra every day, it helps me in all areas of my life. Right. Because it's like, okay, every single thing that I'm doing, can I respond in love? But also just thinking about, what is the intent here? Because when I'm hurt, is it maliciousness or ignorance? You know, it's like, did you intend to hurt me? Or is it that you just don't realize what you're doing or what you're saying, or the impact of that thing, or you're just trying to express something and you're not even thinking about the thing, so that's sort of innocent. And then if I ascribe malice to it, then that's what creates the hurt, is ascribing malice to it. Because if someone innocently does something, you're probably not going to be as it might hurt you a little, but it's not going to hurt you as much. And so I think that's helpful to me. And also just kind of what I talked about in the podcast a few episodes ago, where I was talking about that no one can harm you. It's still true, but I got it put to the test for me, because it is hard. It is hard, but it still is. The truth is to recognize that no one can harm you, not even in a close relationship. And so when you realize you harm yourself, it's your reaction to the thing again, Viktor Frankl. Right. Between the. The stimulus, between something that. An event that happens and your response is a space. And in that space is where man's freedom truly is, that no one can take from you, which is your ability to interpret what that means and then respond. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:12:47]: So it's like, well, that's all Life is. It's our interpretation of things. All of life is that. And I think, too, because I think you would say even if someone's malicious towards you, you wouldn't lash out at them. You might handle things differently, but you would still respond in love. But I think the difference too, and I am guilty of this as well, because it does feel like when you're hurt, that it is all malicious, even though it's not, it feels that way. So I totally get that. That's why our gut reaction is to fight back, defend ourselves or whatever. You know what I mean? But I think with me and you, like, we know that the other person's not going to maliciously do something.

John [00:13:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:34]: And we even forget that when we get hurt. You know what I mean? But I think it's safe to say in our relationship dynamic and all the things that we do to make our relationship so great, like, we're never intentionally trying to hurt each other.

John [00:13:52]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:52]: And so. And most people in relationships, that is true as well, even if they're not doing the things that we're doing or doing them perfectly or whatever. Like, you married this person for a reason. Like, you should not be intentionally, maliciously hurting each other. I'm not saying that people don't, but I'm saying that if you've gotten into that stage where you're intentionally, maliciously hurting each other. Maliciously hurting each other.

John [00:14:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:22]: You got some other things going on here. Like, there's. There's definitely some deeper work you guys need to be doing, but I think trying to also remember that, especially if you're in a conflict with your partner.

John [00:14:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:14:36]: That they're not trying to hurt me. Like, they. There's probably some explanation for this.

John [00:14:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:42]: And maybe asking for that first.

John [00:14:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:14:45]: Will help you understand. Like, not that it needs to be explained because, like, your feelings are valid, but I think our responsibility as adults is to be able to look at the situation and be like, did I overreact because this is coming from somewhere else? Or, like, no. Was this, like, they called me a doo doo head dummy? And that's not nice. You know what I mean? Like. Or like, that was intentional.

John [00:15:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:17]: You know what I mean? So it's a lot of, like, processing, which is really hard to do in the moment when you're feeling all these emotions.

John [00:15:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:26]: And that's why it usually gets messy, because your emotions usually take over and your logic goes out the window.

John [00:15:32]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:15:33]: You can't even think about that. All you can think about is that you're hurt.

John [00:15:36]: So you kind of have a couple of things you have, like. And it's funny because I'm really good at this when it doesn't come to you. So I'm learning, you know, it's like I'm the most stoked person. No one can set me off. I can sit there, someone can yell at my face, whatever. Even with our daughter, like, she could say stuff and it doesn't matter. I can just remain calm completely. It doesn't. But. But a lot of it is because.

Nicole [00:16:00]: And then wait. And then I do something not even close to what.

John [00:16:04]: Nothing. Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:06]: And it's like the end of the world. That's where it's hard.

John [00:16:09]: And actually, now I can tell you what the difference is, is that I have those people. None of those things can hurt me. Right. But. But the things that come from you do hurt me. And then I haven't had a lot of practice in responding to actually being hurt, because what I've done is I've created a good shield of myself of being stoic, of not allowing things to harm me, of. Of recognizing that. And so very few things harm me like words. People say, actions. People do. They don't. But when it comes to you, because of our relationship, then those things, I do feel that. That hurt. Which again, which. Which kind of brings to basically two. Two phases, right? So there's. There's the one part which is reorganizing your brain and the way that your psychology and the way that you interpret things so that you don't even get hurt. And then if you're already past that stage and you've got the emotions going, how to deal with it. Right. And so the most effective thing is the preventative is that you start to steel yourself and reinforce your psychology and stoic practices so that very few things can actually harm you that cause the emotional response. Because once you're in the emotional response stage, it's a lot harder. A different part of your brain is taking over, and it's a lot harder to change, to fix the path there. Right. So it's better to prevent. And so I can tell you what I normally do, which should be applied, which is, well, I want to add.

Nicole [00:17:49]: A little bit to that because that's also something I need to work on in a way, which is like not taking things personally.

John [00:17:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:56]: Which is hard when it's someone you're really close to. And, like, I don't mean that. If you were like, wow, you look so ugly in that shirt or something that I wouldn't take that Personally, like, that's different. Like that. Then we'd have to have the conversation, like, why did you say that? That really hurt my feelings? Or, you know, something like that. But, like, not taking it personally, or if someone says something and it does cause a reaction in you, especially if it was, like, not intentional or, like, not a direct sort of comment, why does this hurt me? Like, kind of like doing that inside part where it's like, you're still not taking what they said personally. You're taking what they said and be like, why did that affect me this way?

John [00:18:41]: Well, and I think, and here's the thing for it, that I start to realize too, because there was even something small that you'd said last night, and I changed my focus very quickly because in order to take things personally, you have to be focused on the person, on the self, right? And so a lot of times when people speak to us or say something or do something, we're looking at it through our lens of, how does this affect me? Instead of the correct question, which is, why are they doing this? Why are they saying what is going on for them right now? And so that internal focus is what causes us to become hurt and causes us to spiral and to have all those things. But if it's like, if you're not worried about that, but instead you're worried about, okay, well, why is this person doing that? What's going on for them right now? And that's your concern, then it's harder for you to be felt harmed and to take things in the wrong way or to take things personally in that case. And that's the thing that I've been practicing as well. And it instantly shifts it, right? Because instantly it's like, okay, well, it's not about me. When your life is all about you, then you take things personally, right? Because it's all about your emotional experience. But when you start looking at, okay, it's about other people. Like, a good example would be, imagine that someone was in a car wreck, right? And they're, like, bleeding. They're, like, trapped in the car. And then you touch their arm to try and help them, and they're like, fuck you. Like, what the fuck? Right? You're not gonna. In that situation, you're not gonna be like, that hurt my feelings. I guess I'll just like, you're like. You're more concerned they're bleeding, they're in trouble, they're in a car. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not even thinking. Even though they may have Said something harsh to you. You're not even caring about that at that point. You're like, let me help this person. Right. So I think that's the thing is it's like. But what's happening there is that the focus is not on you. It's so much on them because you see the trauma. But usually when someone is saying something that you interpret as mean or hurtful to you, there's a lot of. You're not seeing the trauma that's happening in their head, but there's something going on in them that if you can just shift your focus from yourself to them, then you can recognize that and then. And that changes everything, you know, so, yeah, I think that's a useful tool.

Nicole [00:21:07]: Yeah. But I just wanted to say, like, bring that up in that half that you were talking about. That.

John [00:21:13]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:21:13]: Taking things personally, which is hard to learn to not take things personally. Especially. Especially if you've taken everything personally your whole life. It's like, you know, you gotta. It's a habit again, baby steps towards, you know, making that shift to not taking things personally. But it is a balance of like. Like I said, not taking things personally. And again, not allowing people to just attack you at the same time either. But you can do that in a calm way as well. Be like, you know, I'm not gonna continue this conversation if you talk to me this way. We can have a normal conversation and we can talk normally, but we're not doing the name calling or yelling or.

John [00:21:54]: Yeah, and I would say almost that like, it's. It's almost. You don't even have to worry about that, that side of the extreme. Because if you learn to not think, take things personally, you will also learn to deal with things in the right way. Because it is the taking of things personally which both causes you to overreact to someone and harm them, and also to underreact and allow them to harm you. Because either way, you're taking it personally. One way you're taking it personally in an aggressive stance to fight back, and the other way you're taking it personally in a submissive stance to allow yourself to be abused. You know, it's like one of them's like approval seeking and the other one is aggression, you know, and either one of them are coming from taking it personally. Whereas when you don't take it personally, then you objectively look at the situation and you deal with it, you know, so. But it is a hard thing to. Which kind of brings into the realm of. Just like you're saying, is like you've got the before you're hurt and then the after and the before you're hurt. That's where you can harden your mind and, and realize that it's just, that's a matter of philosophy and understanding that, number one, no one can harm you. You can only harm yourself. If you truly believe that, then all of a sudden, like the surface area of where you could be harmed, it reduces dramatically just by believing that thing. Even if it's hard to believe, if you understand that concept, that it's actually, you know, Tony Robbins talks about it all the time. Like when we went to upw, is that you generate all of your emotions.

Nicole [00:23:25]: Right.

John [00:23:26]: No one else generated them. They didn't come from outside of you. Like stimulus did. But then you interpreted that thing, Viktor Frankl. And you decided that you didn't like it and you decided that it was personal or you decided whatever it meant and then you generated emotions in response to that. But you made all those choices.

Nicole [00:23:43]: Right, exactly. Well, I was going to say that it's how you interpret what someone says. Like if someone calls you a doo doo head dummy, you could either be like, wow, oh my God, I'm so offended, or whatever. Like, how could they think that about me? Or you could be like, wow, they probably think that their doo doo head dummy deep down. And so they're just calling everybody doo doo head dummies. You know what I mean? Like, you can, yeah, you can, you can interpret. You can choose how to. And honestly, it's usually the second one. It's usually not they think you're doo doo head dummy. It's usually they feel like a doo doo head dummy inside.

John [00:24:13]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:13]: And so they're lashing out on other people.

John [00:24:15]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:16]: It's not always the case, but it goes back to what you said about like you get to interpret it. And it even goes back to what I said about when we have emotions.

John [00:24:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:24]: For like that up to 90 seconds.

John [00:24:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:27]: Like that is the emotion. But everything after that, how we interpret it, like what we put on it, on the emotion, that lasts way longer. And the same goes for if someone says something like that offends you or something like that.

John [00:24:42]: Yeah, which, which that. And, and that's so. So the most important thing is to focus on that part and the, you know, to prevent that will help. Like those things like thinking that nothing can harm you, remembering that between something that happens and your response is a space. And that's where your actual freedom. Everyone should read Man Search for meaning. Viktor Frankl. But practicing Those things, practicing stoic philosophy, the idea that it is not the external, that you're trying to shield yourself from the external, that it's like you are control of what are the things that you are actually in control of, which is your interpretations of things and the actions that you take. So I think that the more that you focus on that and then also just focusing on the idea of loving, loving people is going to help it so that you're less likely to get into the hurt. Right? But ultimately we still, we hurt ourselves and we get to that place and then when we get to that place, like, how do we deal with that? Right. And you gave some great strategies for dealing with that. But. And I think it is a matter of probably the best thing is to actually pause because like you said, the 60 seconds or whatever, that's all it takes for the emotion to go through you. And then you can now get back to a state where you're acting, not an emotional state. You're acting out of whatever logic and reason you can address the thing. But if you immediately respond, you're probably going to react instead of respond, because we all do. Because something also had to have failed in order for you to get to that place of feeling the hurt. Right? And so, yeah, so I think that's the thing is like, how can you quickly process that and whatever cognitive faculties that you still have at that point, not, not turn them into a negative thing. Even just stating, I think just like you said, even just saying I'm hurt by this, I don't even know why. Or just walking through it, like, because that's vulnerability, right? As opposed to. Because every single anger, you know, anger always comes from hurt. And so if you can just walk through and even just say out loud this, you know, what you're experiencing as opposed to your retaliation or what you think that the thing means, then I think that's the step. But the preventative is the place to put the most of the effort.

Nicole [00:27:19]: Well, and I think too, and you can maybe tell me if you agree with this, because I try not to do this as much anymore. But I think it's also a normal part of the process, especially if you're focusing on the before and trying to get your mindset right and like really trying to work on being as emotionally intelligent and like, dealing with these things in the right way as you can. When you make a mistake sometimes that like shame or disappointment, like, continues the spiral in the wrong direction. Instead of like, like you said earlier when I was describing it, it's like, and what I try to do now is if I make a mistake, address it, own up to it, don't allow it to beat myself up so I continue to attack or be defensive. Use that fact that. Because I think a lot of people, if they had done all this work and then they got in a argument and they're the one also trying to, like, they're the one kind of keeping it calm and, like, organized, but then they say, why are you acting like a 5 year old? Someone might be like, oh, crap. Well, I just blew up the whole thing. Right. So. And then now they're just, like, upset at you because they tried to, like, do the right thing. And so now they're just gonna completely go off the rails.

John [00:28:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:45]: Instead of, like, viewing that as like, oh, crap, like, I messed up, you know, But I'm not gonna allow it to, like, derail me from doing the right thing. I'm gonna own up to it, I'm gonna apologize. I'm not gonna do that again. So, like, I think sometimes, like, especially if you've done so much work on yourself and then you get in a conflict, and even if you're trying to do the right thing and you don't try not to spiral because that will keep you stuck in this loop, that is, it's the shame. Like, the shame of getting it wrong or making a mistake, and then it just makes more problems instead of being like for some reason. And maybe it's the ego and pride of being a human. We don't ever want to admit we've made a mistake, or if we, like, own up that we did something wrong, then the person's gonna think that we're not perfect or, I don't know.

John [00:29:41]: It's the ego.

Nicole [00:29:41]: We're all not perfect.

John [00:29:42]: Well, shame requires darkness. If you bring something into the light, shame disappears. Right. All shame. If you think about anytime you've ever felt shame, it requires darkness.

Nicole [00:29:53]: Right.

John [00:29:54]: It requires that it's a secret. It requires not. But if you bring it out into the light, the thing, it might still be guilt, but it doesn't become shame, because shame is always a negative.

Nicole [00:30:07]: Well, even in that conversation that you and I had, and I did say the wrong thing, and I was like, no, that was wrong of me. I'm sorry, and I apologize to you. Yeah, you did kind of keep trying to bring it up and be like, see, you did the wrong thing. But I couldn't feel shame. Shame, because I already owned up to it. And I brought it up to you because I knew it was Wrong. Immediately after I said it and I was like, I can't say that. So like, even though you were still hurt in that sense in that instance and you were trying to make me that you were trying to like get at me still. Because you were in a dysregulated state, like you couldn't. Because I had already owned up to it and I knew I did the right thing. And even though like that was being said, I didn't feel like that because I already acknowledged it and I already knew it was wrong and I already knew that I was not going to do that moving forward. Not that like, oh, I made a mistake, I'm bad. That's the same thing with like the 60 to 90 second motion thing.

John [00:31:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:31:12]: If I had did the wrong thing and like felt guilty or shameful or upset at myself and then you were like, well see, you did the wrong thing. And then I added to that, like, oh, I am like I'm bad. Like I'm not as good as I think I am.

John [00:31:29]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:30]: That would have caused a completely different conversation. And it's like those things that we add to the these instances.

John [00:31:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:36]: And like when that happened, I was like, I am human and I'm not perfect. And I'm not sitting here telling you I am perfect. That I always get it right all the time. It's obvious I don't. I just apologized. But I apologize to you. You didn't have to be like, oh my God, you need to apologize because you did that. I knew I needed to. Cuz I did the wrong thing.

John [00:31:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:31:54]: So it's like when you take control of it like you said, and you're vulnerable and you bring it out into the light like there is nothing that can get to you except yourself as well too. Because like no matter what you had said, I was like, I knew I did the right thing because I knew I did the wrong thing and I knew I had to make up for doing the wrong thing.

John [00:32:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:14]: And I know I don't want to do the wrong thing, if that makes sense.

John [00:32:17]: Yeah, yeah. And I think that it makes it, you know, it's like, it's not the mistake that you make. And we talked about this a long time ago when this was more of an issue that you're facing is I would tell you all the time, it's not like you can make as many mistakes as you want. It's how you act after the mistake. That's the thing. Because that's what really causes the most harm to someone else is it's like us trying to cover up or defend ourselves or, you know, that shame that. That we have. But when we.

Nicole [00:32:42]: Which I definitely did that, that was a huge problem I dealt with.

John [00:32:45]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:46]: You know, and it. That's why I'm coming from this place now because, yeah, I would try to defend whatever behavior, because if I owned up to the behavior, then that proves that I'm bad and that I'm wrong and that I did the wrong thing and that, like, I'm not as. Whatever I think I am enlightened or healed or whatever word you want to use. But you're right. I did deal with that, like, very badly. And I think that's now, too. Why I'm like, I don't want to go back to that again. Kind of like the other, like, fighting fire with fire and being mean back to people who are mean. Like, once you really move past these places, especially places that you lived in for so long.

John [00:33:27]: Yeah, you don't want to go back.

Nicole [00:33:28]: Yeah, you don't want to go back.

John [00:33:30]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But. But. Yeah, but that. I mean, that's. That's. That's the key is. Is. Is recognizing it and then just bring it into light as soon as possible. The faster you bring something into light and even just, you know, it's like almost all the things. If you just talk through what's going on vulnerably, Right. Then it's going to resolve the. The issue. Like, that's the best communication. It's just being vulnerable about the thing. Even if something does get to the point where it does hurt you. Right. Again, you want to try and not allow that to happen, but once it does, even just acknowledging, if you can just own, okay, I've hurt myself. But, you know, it's like, I forget who used to say it, but there was this maybe. Maybe it was Tony Robbins at some point was saying that. I think he did at one point. It was a big thing he kept on saying was like, you know, it's my delusion that, you know, and then say whatever you're saying, it's like, it's my delusion. In my delusional state. I feel like this thing that you said is hurtful to me. You know, it's like it's like. Or in my delusional state, it seemed like, you know, it's like it's my delusion. So it's recognizing that it's your interpretation of the thing. Like, you're, you know, I think that's a big part of it. Yeah, but. Yeah, but it definitely helped me to just recognize that. To keep on going back to this idea that, like, okay, you're not going to do something specifically to hurt me. So whatever you're doing, it might be. It may be unintentional. You know what I'm saying? Like, it is unintentional. Like. Like, that's the. But there's something going on with. So there's like, there's something going on with you, which is probably the more important thing that I should address. And then there's like, the understanding of this unintentional thing that you did, which can be addressed, but it's easier to address that when you address the thing that's going on with the person. Right. So why did the person say something that may. That you interpreted in such a way that caused you to hurt yourself? Right. If you understand that, then they're going to be way more receptive to modify the behavior in the future. Right?

Nicole [00:35:42]: Yeah. And I just want to say I think that too, when, like, someone's lashing out at you.

John [00:35:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:48]: It's a little more obvious that they have something going on that they're projecting onto people.

John [00:35:54]: Right.

Nicole [00:35:55]: But I think. I do think sometimes, especially, like, if you're hurt by something that, when you can logically look at it, that it doesn't really make a lot of sense why this hurt you.

John [00:36:06]: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:08]: Or like, is this maybe a small thing that, like, doesn't even really pertain to this, but it does. I don't know how to describe that. If someone's like, hey, can you grab that for me? And you get upset about it. Like, that's not a logical response. So being like, well, why does them asking me to get them something cause this reaction?

John [00:36:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:35]: Because I'm constantly doing things for them and they're not doing things for me. Like, sometimes it's not going to be as obvious as someone being like, I can't believe you would do this. You're so irresponsible or whatever, like, calling you names.

John [00:36:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:46]: It's a little bit more obvious that, like, they're struggling with something internally or like, yeah, you know what I mean? But if someone's like, hey, can you get this for me? And that causes you to be very upset, you have to do a little bit more research into why. Because sometimes it is a little. It's like a response that, like, really, you probably shouldn't be offended by, in the sense of, like, it was not malicious, like you said, but what has been going on that maybe you're like, Bottling up.

John [00:37:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:20]: And now this seemingly, like, normal response is causing a adverse reaction based on what the outside thing is. Does that make sense?

John [00:37:31]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:32]: So, like, I just want to mention that because sometimes it is obvious, like, sometimes it is somebody, like, coming at you or like they're visibly upset about something that doesn't really have anything to do with you, but sometimes it's like a normal, everyday life sort of action that has hurt somebody.

John [00:37:51]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:37:51]: Because it's the same with, like, women with the toilet seat up. Right. Like, it's not about the toilet seat.

John [00:37:55]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:56]: Like, women are not upset. Upset at you because you left the toilet seat up as in that action.

John [00:38:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:38:02]: It's because they feel like, considered. Yeah, exactly.

John [00:38:07]: Over time.

Nicole [00:38:07]: Right. So it's like those sort of instances. Right. Like, sometimes those things cause these reactions in us, and that's when we really have to do the inner work to be like, okay, what is this? Yeah, why is this causing this reaction? And then when you come to your partner, you're not like, you keep telling me to put the toilet seat down. Like, that's just. Just don't tell me what to do.

John [00:38:31]: Like, there's something else behind.

Nicole [00:38:33]: Right. Like, and it's not your responsibility as like, the person who's being yelled at for the toilet seat. It's not your responsibility to figure that out. It is the person who's upset about the toilet seat. But, like, that's what I'm. Why I'm saying that if. If you can catch yourself having these reactions to something like the toilet seat, you need to do the work. Because then you need to come to your husband or whatever and be like, hey, like, I know I. When we talked, I was upset about the toilet seat. But you know what? Like, really what I'm upset about is the toilet seat makes me feel not considered. Or like it's the toilet seat plus these other things that just are causing me to feel like you don't consider me or like you don't care to do these things so I don't have to do them. You know, like, you need to come with that vulnerable part or like, you know, it. Whatever it's hitting on.

John [00:39:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:29]: You are responsible for bringing that up to your partner. Because I think the thing too that goes along with like, you know, not taking things personally is that people, other people are responsible for their emotions.

John [00:39:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:39:41]: We as humans put so much onto other people to make them feel like they. They are responsible for our emotions.

John [00:39:48]: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:39:49]: And I think the thing that's helping me with like, the not taking it personally is, like, it's not my responsibility and, like, honestly, it's also out of my control.

John [00:39:57]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:39:57]: Because that's also something I realized by trying to do the right thing in some of our conversations. And it's not working, you know, or it takes, like, long to work because I'm like, this isn't even in my control. All I can do is respond correctly.

John [00:40:11]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:40:12]: But I can't turn this conversation around. I can't, like, bring you over to the calm side. So I think, like, that also helps. Not in the sense of like, I don't care, but in the sense of, like, it's not my right.

John [00:40:25]: Exactly. Yeah. And it works both ways, because when you are taking things personally because you are. You are trying to manage someone else's emotions, then they. Then you're also putting the burden of your emotions on other people at the same time.

Nicole [00:40:41]: Right.

John [00:40:42]: Because what you don't realize is then that you're getting upset because you're unable to manage their emotions, and now other people are having to deal with your emotions that, that. That you're making them responsible for, like, unintentionally. Right. But that's what, what does it. That's where, you know, what really helped me with that the most, was making the vow of, like, I'm no longer going to allow people to put expectations on me, and I'm no longer going to put expectations on other people. So people can do whatever they want to do and I can do whatever I want to do, you know? And, you know, obviously there's still consequences for actions, but from an emotional perspective of not being held hostage by other people's emotions. And, you know, because that's where that whole, you know, that's really the heart of what boundaries is supposed to be, is to free you from the bondage of guilt or like, tying yourself to other people's emotions and making them, you know, be tied to your emotions. Where it's like, okay, if someone feels the way they can, they can feel that way. And sometimes it is hard because we do want to help the people we care about. Yeah, yeah. But sometimes you have to let the person just feel how they're going to feel, and they have to deal with that internally because you can't come and change, you know, fix all their emotions every single time. Otherwise, you know, if you're doing that, then they rightly will think that you're responsible for their emotions because you're the one who's. Who changes them for them. You know, so. But, but it's hard. It is hard to do. And it ties to the feeling hurt. Because you're definitely going to feel hurt a lot of times if you're making yourself responsible for other people's emotions.

Nicole [00:42:23]: Right.

John [00:42:24]: A lot of times. Because now you've created, just like we were saying about, like, reducing the surface area of ways that you can be harmed. That increases the surface area because now any person not doing or responding the way that you need them to respond causes you harm.

Nicole [00:42:38]: Right.

John [00:42:38]: And that's a very. You know, you're going to have to be really good at managing that or you have to change that surface area to make it smaller.

Nicole [00:42:45]: Yeah. No one's good at managing that.

John [00:42:47]: Yeah. So.

Nicole [00:42:48]: But, yeah, you're right.

John [00:42:51]: Yeah, but it's good. But I mean, it's something that I think was helpful to me just to realize that, like, that was a weak point in my armor, you know, when it. When it came to you. And we talked about it before, but like, to really acknowledge, okay, I need to learn how to, one, not be hurt in those circumstances, but then when I do, to manage that in the correct way. And so I think I've got some good strategies for it. It also helped me, too, that, you know, that, like when we were having a discussion the other week or whatever, it was where you're like, well, then show me. You know, and it's like. Because I'm trying to say, well, you're doing these things wrong. And then it's like, well, but yeah, but I'm not. Like, I have to show you the. What does it look like to respond in the correct way all the time? You know, it's like. So that kind of created a challenge for me. It's like, okay, well, that makes sense. Like, obviously I can try and tell you while I'm doing the wrong thing or I can show you.

Nicole [00:43:51]: Which is very hard to fully explain at that point. It's very hard to explain how to do the right thing when you're doing the wrong thing.

John [00:43:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:58]: But I mean, men do, in your position, do have it harder because you are the leader.

John [00:44:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:44:04]: And to be honest, you should be the one.

John [00:44:06]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:06]: Like, handling it in the way that we're talking about. And you should be the one leading by example. And like, I'm not saying that you never do, but I'm saying that's harder for a man because that is, like, part of your responsibility. Like, you can't be the leader in everything except emotionally. You know what I mean? Like, that's. And as a woman, again, Like, I can be as calm, cool, collected, whatever. That's not going to change you. You have to change you. You're not as influenced by me unless I challenge you, I guess.

John [00:44:42]: But, well, but I mean in the.

Nicole [00:44:44]: Sense of like you're not looking at me being, trying to be calm and like have a conversation and being like, oh, I should do that too. Like, that's not what's happening because you're like, I'm the leader, I can do this. But it's like, so it does have to be from the man leading by example. And it is harder. You are, I don't want to say expected, but in some ways as a leader, you are expected to do the right thing majority of the time and that makes it harder. Like, and it shouldn't be again, like, don't go into a shame spiral because of that. No, but yeah, like, I want you to show me how to, for me to even be better at what I've been doing. Like, I want you to show me how to do it in the best way possible.

John [00:45:28]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:29]: By example.

John [00:45:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:31]: So like again, I do feel for you because you are the man and you do have a higher set of, yeah. Like expectations as a leader.

John [00:45:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:41]: Because that encompasses everything.

John [00:45:43]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:44]: And I do feel like maybe even having to do this emotionally is probably one of the harder things because like you said, you can do it with everybody else. Yeah, but you can't do it as easily with me.

John [00:45:57]: Right. But that's some kind of a deficiency to work on. Right. It's, it's sort of like sometimes like you can get into the self defeatist attitude early second of, of maybe you have, you know, someone is inspecting your room. Like you're supposed to clean your room and you clean your room and you make your bed and everything and they find one little speck of dirt on the ground and they're like, oh yeah, that's not the level. But it's also like, but that's what you want. Like, you want that level. Like if you really want to advance yourself, especially as a man, you want that level. You don't want a lesser level of a standard. Because even like, like what we're saying by most people's standards, they would say, I mean, they would exonerate my response to being hurt. They would say, oh, it's fine. I mean, he's not screaming and yelling, he's not saying bad things and getting angry and doing all these things. But it's not the level at which, just like you said, it's like most people Would exonerate you by saying, oh, you're acting like a five year old. Oh, that's not. Who cares? Like, that's not a big deal. But that's not the center that you want to be at. Right. So you don't want to be exonerated from that. You know, it's like, like that's not the standards that we're trying to be.

Nicole [00:47:16]: Right.

John [00:47:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:18]: You need to know how to do it. Right.

John [00:47:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:21]: That's my thing. Yeah. Even killing people, maybe not every, I mean, maybe people don't agree, but like we said in the other episodes of like, the highest level you should reach for is probably unattainable. Honestly, that doesn't mean you shouldn't reach for it.

John [00:47:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:47:40]: And that's the thing is like, like you said, I think some people with like the room example you gave and if someone was like, there's a speck of dirt on the ground, like, there's some people that are like, are you kidding me? I did all this stuff. Why are you pointing at that? But I'm the type of person that's like, thank you. I'm a make sure I focus extra next time on the floor. Because obviously I missed out on that. Because I want to do it right.

John [00:48:01]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:48:02]: Like, even if I can't reach perfection.

John [00:48:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:04]: I want to get as close as I possibly can while still knowing that no one is perfect. Because you do have to have that balance. But I think when you realize that all of these growing opportunities, like you said, like the chance to be better gives you more peace in your life. I think people think it's like more work I have to do, but they don't realize that the more work you do in this area, the more peaceful your life is and like.

John [00:48:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:32]: The less stressful and all of these things, like they think just allowing their emotions to spew out. I saw this thing about like women are getting these, all these diseases because they like hold in their emotions or whatever. And I was thinking about that because all the women in the comments were like, yeah, this is why I yell at people or whatever. That's not right. That's not what they're even talking about. But no one is also talking about this.

John [00:48:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:48:58]: In detail for these women to understand. It's what we talked about in the very beginning. It's feeling those things. You can't like shut that off. You're going to feel it.

John [00:49:07]: Well, you can, you can prevent yourself from being hard, like reducing that surface area.

Nicole [00:49:12]: Right.

John [00:49:13]: But when you do feel things, go ahead yeah, Right.

Nicole [00:49:15]: Like, you can't prevent the emotion once it's happening.

John [00:49:17]: Right. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:49:19]: You have the opportunity, how you handle it afterwards. And honestly, after that, 60 to 90 seconds.

John [00:49:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:27]: You felt it. Like, you're not repressing anything.

John [00:49:29]: No, it's not. Exactly.

Nicole [00:49:31]: And so, yeah. What you do after.

John [00:49:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:34]: Will cause you more suffering and more stress, which, honestly, I think that what the study is trying to say is that women that suppress and keep all that stress in and they don't process it.

John [00:49:44]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:45]: Are causing themselves to have autoimmune diseases or whatever. But that also doesn't mean to just spew everything on to people that, like, if you get cut off in traffic to flip someone off and yell at them, that's not what they're saying either, because that just causes you more stress in different ways. Yeah, it's what we're talking about here, where you feel it.

John [00:50:06]: Right. Process.

Nicole [00:50:07]: And honestly, the best way is to feel it and then be vulnerable about it. Vulnerable about it, like we talked about.

John [00:50:13]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:14]: Because if there is some underlying thing like, you know, oh, that, like, really hurt me. I don't know why. Like, maybe there's something that I'm holding on to that this, like, triggered and I need to let it go, you know, that is how you actually do it. Not just spewing your emotions onto everybody so that you don't get a disease.

John [00:50:34]: And I think really the goal of life, of, like, personal development is to get rid of even your capacity for negative emotions as much as possible. Like, you can still be like, people are always like, oh, here we're human. You have emotions. Yeah, but there's like, a spectrum. And like, the negative ones that you don't need actually, like, the positive ones, you can have and express and feel. But, you know, it has to do with the level of consciousness. As your level of consciousness increases, then you should be moving away from the negative one. Right. Like, you know, when we look at. I forgot what. What his name was the. That wrote the books, but has the scale. Like, anger is at this level. You know what I'm talking about. But was it David? He wrote Letting Go. And normally I have authors.

Nicole [00:51:27]: Yeah, you're pretty good at the authors.

John [00:51:28]: For some reason, I can't get his. But yeah, those are at lower levels. And so when people are like, oh, I need to express my emotions. Well, first of all, you need to process them, not express or suppress. There's a difference. Right. Processing is not expressing or suppressing. It is. It is handling them. But. But the negative ones you don't actually. You can get to a point where you reduce that surface area and you don't have to go through those things because it does improve your life dramatically when you don't even have to deal with the negative emotions because the less things that you allow to hurt you, then the less you're gonna have to deal with hurt and pain. All those type of emotions. Yeah, you know, it's kind of like the, you know, Mark Manson, the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. Like, it was a pretty decent read if you haven't read that on. But it's basically stoic and Buddhist philosophy. It's the same type of idea, which is like, don't allow the things to harm you. And then you live a much better life. But a lot of people are living with basically in glass houses.

Nicole [00:52:39]: Well, I think the important part about what you said is that it happens naturally. Because I think so many people think, like, no, I need to feel anger. Or, like, anger is a natural emotion. I don't want, like, toxic positivity. I think that you have to understand that what you just said is not like, you're not choosing to be angry. It's that you. You lose those sort of emotions because of all the work that you've done in other aspects. Like, it's not something you even actively do.

John [00:53:14]: Yeah, like, I mean, you.

Nicole [00:53:16]: Yeah, like, it. It's something you actively do where if now you get angry or upset, you process those emotions. You take that time to process that, and then you decide how you're going to act after that. That is what you are cognizant of. But the thing is that when you reach the level that you're talking about, where you don't even need a lot of those negative emotions that I feel like happens naturally.

John [00:53:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:41]: It is not even a necessary thing to think about. Like, you're not, like, suppressing them. Like, Because I think people think that when people. When you say something like that, that it's suppression. Yeah, right. That it is. And that it's like, no, I'm choosing to be happy. And like, yes, the story we tell ourselves, how we interpret life.

John [00:54:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:02]: Does determine a lot of these things as well, too.

John [00:54:04]: But, well, it's like this. Like, okay, if. If I'm like, okay, you should do things in your house. Safety precautions in order to prevent a fire. Okay. But then there is a fire. And then you're like, oh, no, there's no fire. You're trying to deny that there's a fire when it's like, at that point, you have to suppress the fire. Like, you have to suppress maybe isn't the best word, but you have to get rid of the fire. You have to deal with it, right? But ignoring it, pretending like it's not there does not solve the problem, right? So it's like, at first, the first step is prevention, but if that fails, then you cannot just ignore the thing. You have to deal with it. You have to process it. So it's like, you don't need to be triggered in order to feel those negative emotions. But if you are, that's fine, right? Don't deny it. Because then, then you're suppressing it. If you're like, if, if I say.

Nicole [00:54:58]: Then you'll cause a bigger fire, right?

John [00:54:59]: Because if I say, okay, anger is an unnecessary emotion, and then you get angry and then you're like, no, no, I'm not angry. Like, I have to suppress that like that, then. Then that's not. Not healthy. But when I'm saying anger is not a necessary emotion, then what you're doing is hopefully applying it in, like, the root of anger is an unmet expectation. And then if you can figure out what expectations you're holding and start to get rid of those expectations and you're not gonna feel angry, you know, so. But it's a matter of. I told one of my coaching clients the other night, because I told them you're going to be biased in one direction or the other. You're biased your interpretation. We talked about Viktor Frankl and the space in between things. So you're going to be biased. Your interpretation of things are not going to be the correct interpretation of what's actually happening in the world. You're going to apply a bias to it. So I was like, well, which bias do you think you should apply? A negative one or a positive one? Right? Because people talk about toxic positivity. I'm like, even if you blow smoke up your ass, blow smoke up your ass, which would you like? You're going to be biased one direction. So let's lean in the direction that doesn't give us a bunch of crap, negative emotions of hurt and pain and anger and jealousy and all this shit. Instead, let's blow smoke up our ass and let's interpret everything as like, oh, this person must love me, they must like me. I mean, you don't have to go to that extreme. But if you're going to be biased in one direction, at least bias in the positive direction because it's going to give you some. He's like, well, I want to see reality. It's like you're not seeing reality clearly either way.

Nicole [00:56:29]: No one is.

John [00:56:29]: Right. So all I'm saying is, like, pick the one that's going to be more beneficial to you.

Nicole [00:56:34]: Right.

John [00:56:34]: And, you know, and that's.

Nicole [00:56:36]: There's a reason they say delulu is the solulu. Yeah, but it's true. No, they've. Plenty of people have been talking about this lately. It's that, you know, when people ask you, like, how's your day going? That you should say, wonderful. Great. Like, you should say, speak into existence.

John [00:56:51]: Like anything that you want. Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:52]: Not like, in some ways. Yeah. Maybe it does feel a little delusional, but not in the toxic positivity way where it's like, if anger doesn't come up, like you said, that you don't process it.

John [00:57:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:57:05]: That is the toxic way. When you're like, covering up things with positivity and not processing them, that is toxic. But like, promoting and focusing on the positive things in your life is not the same thing.

John [00:57:22]: Yeah. Because it's at the preventative stage. Right. Because what I'm saying is you're applying that bias in the positive direction to your interpretation of events that happens before the emotion occurs. Because there is that space. And if you're going to apply the bias there, then you're going to find that you're not going to feel negative emotions as. As much. Right. So it's like, you know, you get to choose what. What the thing means and, you know, the more that you exercise that muscle. Because. Because most of us are wired in such a way that we feel like someone does something and then we. It causes something, a feeling within us.

Nicole [00:57:58]: Right.

John [00:57:58]: And that's not true.

Nicole [00:57:59]: Right.

John [00:58:00]: There's.

Nicole [00:58:00]: We interpreted what they did.

John [00:58:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:02]: And hurt our own feelings.

John [00:58:04]: Exactly. Because even I've. I've noticed this space where, like, I don't. I don't get frustrated very much. Like, you know, let's say that I'm trying to fix something and I drop the tool. Okay. In the past, I would have been like, damn it, fucking shit. Like, I'm pissed off. Right. But now I find myself more like even just recognizing that space. It's not an instant reaction. There's a space. I'm like. And I. And my first instinct might start to go in that direction. Then like, oh, no, remember that you don't need to be upset by things like this. And then I'm not upset by things like this. Right. Because I've created that. Like, the more that you start to insert that little hook in there before the emotion takes over, the more you have control. And that's what the practice is. It's just recognizing that.

Nicole [00:58:50]: Well, and I think doing little things like that in your everyday life is also beneficial for all of the things that we've discussed in this episode because, yeah, I remember one time I knocked over a whole plate of poker chips or something.

John [00:59:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:03]: And I was like, I could just be like pissed off at myself and then I'm mad picking these things up. Or I'm like, well, I have to pick them up anyway. And so I just picked them up and I didn't have any emotion tied to it. I was just like, why am I gonna be upset? I have to pick this up anyway.

John [00:59:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:19]: Am I gonna pick them up and be pissed the whole time? And then like, it might ruin my whole day because I just like was angry for like 15 minutes picking up these chips or am I just gonna pick up the chips? Because it has to be done anyway and it's no big deal. Like, it was like the way that you view things, like you said, interpret things especially in conflict or like high emotional states.

John [00:59:42]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:43]: Definitely matters.

John [00:59:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:59:44]: And you can do it. You have that power. You have that choice at every moment. You have the choice of how you're going to respond, of how you're going to interpret it. And so, yeah, maybe this was even a good one to do for the thing for 2026. But you know, I think it all ties together, honestly, like I said.

John [01:00:04]: And what's helped me a lot too, with just being more stoic in general. Even though, yeah, I've got some weakness in this area when it comes to you. But I'm learning and growing there. But what's helped me in general has been doing hard things. Right. So like running 20 mile run, you know, running marathons, training, fasting, doing one meal a day. Because you know, if you're, if you're like, you know, 15, 20 miles into a ride and you're really, really hungry because you haven't eaten all day and then, and then, you know, and then a lot of other things in life are going to be, you know, if you're not in the. Then, then when you're in normal life, you're like, okay, I'm not, I just ate and I'm not in a 20 mile run, like feeling all that pain. So whatever else life throws at you doesn't seem nearly as bad. You know, it creates a contrast for you where you're purposely putting yourself into difficult and painful situations. And doing without so that there's a lot less things that bother you. You know, it's like you can deal with some small discomforts. You can deal with some words that people say. Like, those things are not, you know, it's. That's. It creates that. That contrast. And I think that's important. It's like, you have to be doing some hard things in your life. And even on an emotional perspective of, like, if you're not reading and learning and growing then, and pushing yourself emotionally through hard things, then all you're going to be fragile. Right. Like. Like when we talk to the doctor and he's like, do you teach people how not to be snowflakes? It's like, yeah, that's. But that's what. Because you'll be a snowflake. You'll be very delicate and fragile in that. In that respect. If you haven't put yourself through hard things, especially emotionally, you know, yourself. It's like they even give that phrase of, like, you know, the more that you sweat in training, the less you'll bleed in battle. Right. And so it's like the idea is that the more that you actually put yourself through hard things and do the work, then the less that life is going to be able to do. Like, because life is going to come for you and you're going to get hurt. Like, so it's like, are you going to feel the pain that you inflicted upon yourself in order to grow or feel the pain of being too. Of being too weak and life giving you that pain? So it's like you're going to choose one. The other one is, people say, you know, choose discipline or regret, like, which you're going to suffer either way. So it's like, which one? You know, the pain of discipline or the pain of regret. Which one do you want?

Nicole [01:02:38]: Well, most people are suffering 24 7.

John [01:02:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:41]: Because like you said, things are going to happen, but they're not even enjoying the times when things aren't happening because they're mad about something, they're holding on to something. They're lashing out at people.

John [01:02:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:51]: So they never even really feel peace. They're just always in chaos. There's always. They're always in the suffering, the struggle.

John [01:03:00]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:01]: And that's why, too, doing the work to get to these places where you don't respond in these ways or you don't take things personally or you interpret things in the positive way.

John [01:03:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:12]: That takes a lot of work to get there, but you do get to reap the benefits of Having a more peaceful life and you can handle the hard things better.

John [01:03:21]: Right.

Nicole [01:03:21]: When you've also learned these things doesn't mean that hard things aren't going to come, like you said. But you can handle them in a way where they won't break you.

John [01:03:29]: Exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:30]: And you realize the work you've already put in, how much effort that took, like how strong you are as a person, and you're not gonna let anything break, that you're gonna use it to be better and better, stronger and stronger.

John [01:03:46]: Okay. Yeah.

Nicole [01:03:48]: Well, I mean, I guess. Should we talk about our thing or we kind of, like, talk about.

John [01:03:52]: We could talk about. So I think we. We just got into. It was. It was more on the topic of which it was kind of what you said of dissecting, like, what is the actual root of thing that. That was causing the irritation or the pain. For me, a couple times it came up of you, like, giving me help when I don't. When I'm not asking for help. Right. Which I responded in a negative way. You know, like, we had an instance where I can't remember what the first one was, but the second one was when I was barbecuing and. And you're telling me to put some seasoning on the hamburger, and I said no, and then you kept on going with it. And then I got more stern with it, which was not in a loving way, but that helped. That conversation helped me to realize, because as you talk to me, you're like, hey, look, you can't keep on responding this way, getting all hurt. And then when you get hurt, responding in a way that's unloving and. And negative. And that. That was. Was helpful for me to. To see that I was doing that. But then we also had a conversation about the root cause of it too. Right. Because it also helped me to. Because I was like. At one point, I was like, I don't know why I am responding this way. Like, what? Like. And then as we dug into it, it was like, you know, I kind of discovered, okay, it's because I don't. I feel like when you're helping me, when I'm not asking for help, that it's like, it's a lack of trust. Like, it makes me feel like I don't have my. My purpose and feels like I'm being mothered or, you know, those. Those type of things. But now it makes more sense why my reaction would be that. Not that my reaction should be that, but there's more than just what happened in that particular situation. That particular event.

Nicole [01:05:48]: And I didn't mind helping you get to that point.

John [01:05:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:05:51]: But it was. It would have been way better because a lot of the beginning of the conversation was, why is he so upset about this?

John [01:05:59]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [01:06:01]: Like, if you had from the beginning was like, hey, when you, like, persistently say these things, it makes me feel like you don't trust me or I'm not competent to do this. Like, I can do this, and you know I can.

John [01:06:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:06:14]: But I'm just letting you know it's coming off this way. Like, that would have been a better way from the very beginning, which, like I said, I don't mind helping you understand where this is coming from because I also know that, like, some of the things that you struggle with in our conversations don't come from me. Like, they come from whatever you have going on. Or maybe you haven't, like, had the place, even though we've been together for a while, to, like, do that. Or like, maybe you're still not comfortable. Like, yeah, like, just straight out being vulnerable. But, I mean, those are still all your responsibilities. But, like, I think that you have to acknowledge that even responding, like, with no. Because we had this conversation in our conversation, that just being like, no, like, I'm not going to do that, or like, you know, I got it handled, is not explaining. You know what I mean? Like, it's the same thing as if, like, a wife is like, why do you keep leaving the toilet seat up? And the husband's just like, I don't know.

John [01:07:17]: Right.

Nicole [01:07:19]: I just forgot.

John [01:07:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:07:21]: And then she's like, well, don't do it. You know what I mean? Like, that's not really. Explain, like, her explaining why it's bothering her.

John [01:07:28]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [01:07:29]: You know what I mean?

John [01:07:29]: Like, does not. Like, yeah, it's trying to hint at a thing as opposed to.

Nicole [01:07:34]: Which is not obvious.

John [01:07:35]: Exactly.

Nicole [01:07:35]: It's the same thing that women do, too. Like, women will be like, well, why doesn't he just know that I want flowers on Wednesdays? You know, like, everybody does it. It's normal. Like, Right. But then when you become, like, conscious of it, it's like our. You realize it is our responsibility when we're upset to, like, talk about it, like.

John [01:07:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:07:56]: And really figure out what it is, because otherwise you're just getting mad at someone who, like, genuinely doesn't even know what's going on. Like, if you had just come to me and been vulnerable about, like, it feels like I'm mothering you. Or I don't feel like you think I'm competent or whatever.

John [01:08:13]: Right?

Nicole [01:08:13]: That's. I don't want you to feel that way. I think I'm just being helpful and like, offering you advice. I get that you didn't ask for it, right? But I'm just like, oh, I'm being helpful. Like, let me help him make the hamburgers, like, taste a little different this time. Let's try some seasoning. And then you're like, no. And I'm like, well, maybe he just doesn't know that it might taste better. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, even though I get that I shouldn't keep pushing it if you say no.

John [01:08:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:08:36]: But at the same time, like, and then you get so upset and I'm like, what is going on? Like, it was just hamburger seasoning. You know what I mean? But I don't know.

John [01:08:45]: And it's just a matter of like, approaching it from a wrong way. Like, for me, like, obviously there's ways that you could approach it, but like, looking at my own self, because we all have to look at our own self, it's like, is that I could even just be like, what's going on with you? Why are you still saying stuff after I said no? Like, you know, it's like, what's going on? Like, from a, from a, like a loving viewpoint of like, you know, and then, and then we can have a discussion, if we need to have the discussion about, like, what's deeper behind it. But like, I don't have to take it personally. I don't have to take it in a negative way. You know, I can. There's a thousand ways I can respond that are not me taking it in a negative way, not saying I got it handled right. It's like, if I feel like, okay, I need to educate, then let's educate. Let's discuss this and talk about it. If I feel like it's not that big of a deal, like it's a one time thing or whatever, then I don't have to let it bother me. I can joke about it or whatever it is, but there's a lot of different choices. So that's what I. Yeah, no, and.

Nicole [01:09:54]: You did give me better ways to bring up giving advice, even if you didn't, like, ask for it. So you did definitely help me understand where I was doing the wrong things and how I can phrase the things better if I'm trying to be helpful, because I am. But you know, I get that that can cross the line as well too. And you gave me good advice on that.

John [01:10:18]: Yeah. It's a. It's like. And again. And that's what it is. It's like. It's understanding, like a masculine, like, psychology in regards to this. Because I was thinking about it, too. I was like, you know, sometimes when we're in the car, like, driving. When your dad's driving, right. And he's trying to do something with his phone, like, I'm not gonna tell him because I'm a man. I know what a man thinks. Like, I'm not gonna tell him, oh, let me look this up for you. Like, if I can see that he's struggling or he asks me, I'll happy to look it up so he doesn't have to. But. But, you know, from a man's perspective, if I doubt that he can handle driving and whatever he needs to do on his phone, then it's like he was scaring me.

Nicole [01:11:02]: Driving some of the time.

John [01:11:03]: I mean, sometimes. Sometimes it might even me. But, like, even if it scares me, I trust him. Like, and so I demonstrate that trust by not saying anything, you know, not offering the help. But it's something that would be hard for you to understand unless it's explained to you because you don't think that way. But as a man, I know not to. Not to, like, say, you know, maybe. Maybe.

Nicole [01:11:23]: Maybe to say, like, turn here, and we're like, okay.

John [01:11:26]: Right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But, like, maybe I would say to him at some point, like, oh, would you. Would you like some help with the. Would you like me to look that up for you? Like, in that way? That. That. Because I'm thinking, you know, as a man, I don't want to in any way insult his pride or in any way, you know? You know, but it's like. Because I know that. Because I know, you know, how men think, but it's. That has to be conveyed to you, you know, as a woman, as opposed to, like, saying, I have. It does not convey that depth of understanding. So.

Nicole [01:12:02]: Right. But without going off on a tangent, there is something to say about pride.

John [01:12:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:12:08]: You know, pride also keeps us in precarious situations as well, too. So. But, yeah, no, it was a good thing. It was hard.

John [01:12:18]: Yeah, it was hard. But.

Nicole [01:12:19]: But.

John [01:12:20]: But it's good. I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't like a blowout type of thing. It was just.

Nicole [01:12:24]: No, but it's hard to try to remain. And I obviously didn't. I said the thing that I said. But it is hard to try to remain calm in that instance, especially when your leader is not leading, you know, What? I mean, like, so that's why I understand that it's incredibly hard for you because you do have higher expectations on you. And that's why I said at the end of our conversation, I want you to show me how to do it. I want you to be the one doing the right thing majority of the time.

John [01:12:56]: Right, exactly. Yeah.

Nicole [01:12:58]: I know you're capable of it, and I told you during that conversation, I know that you're capable of doing all the things that we're talking about.

John [01:13:08]: Yeah. Well. And like I said, the frustrating thing for me was that in all other instances, we had just. The previous night, our daughter had gone off on a little tangent thing and said some. It didn't say. It wasn't disrespectful stuff as we had dealt with before, but it was some stuff where I just totally remained calm, you know, and didn't react at all. Just held my ground and didn't react and was loving even. And so. But. But it's good. But, but that's the thing is, like, you know, the more that you think you have it, the more that you need to be tested so that you can see if you really do. It's like that little spot on the carpet when you clean your room. Like, you want that, Grandpa. I know, but you want that to be identified.

Nicole [01:14:00]: Yeah.

John [01:14:00]: Because that, That's. That's big.

Nicole [01:14:03]: Yeah.

John [01:14:03]: It's also the good indicator of, like, we were talking about it without going on too much attention on another episode of you know about. Like, when you say I love you, you do the right thing, but your heart isn't in the right place. Well, if there's that little speck in the. In the room that's supposed to be clean that indicates that maybe the heart isn't in the right place because it's like a little crack in the thing that shows that there might be something beneath it that's going on. And so the more that you can find those things, the more it's going to help you, even when you think you're doing things right.

Nicole [01:14:41]: That's true.

John [01:14:42]: Yeah. All right, that's it. Come check us out@betterthanperfectpod.com Send us an email at betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com like, and subscribe. Yeah.

Nicole [01:14:55]: Share with your friends.

John [01:14:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:14:56]: Your doctors, librarians.

John [01:14:58]: Your doctors. Yeah, Your doctors. All right, we'll see you next week.