John [00:00:00]: Our parents are going to die. Not to minimize it, but it's an experience we're all going to go through. Every single person is slated for the same fate. Like, you live long enough, your parents will die. You're not special in the sense that you had something happen to you that's not going to happen to everyone else. And so you get to treat everyone however you want to. So I think some people in their grieving process, they can forget that there's other people involved and they have responsibilities.

Nicole [00:00:24]: Which I think that anybody's loved one that's past, you know, wouldn't want them to, like, blow up their lives. I mean, we're going to go through it like you said, and it's going to be hard.

John [00:00:36]: The perfect we discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect, we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you two episodes. How. Geez. The same exact thing. Like, don't do that. Welcome back to the Better than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:01:11]: See, we're imperfect.

John [00:01:12]: That's right. Trying to go too fast. Got caught on it again. But, yeah, no, this week we're going to talk about how to deal with the grief when one person in the relationship is going through grief. So, you know, loss of significant person in their life. I mean, there's a lot. There's. I mean, that's usually where the grief comes from, but it could be other things, you know, that can happen. And, you know, how do you act when you're in that state? And then how do you respond to someone who's going through that, where it's something that's kind of outside of your control?

Nicole [00:01:53]: So. Yeah, I mean, I think, unfortunately, probably the best way to talk about this would probably be, like, when your mom passed away.

John [00:02:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:04]: Because that is a very significant person in anyone's life. And, yeah, we were there, you know, in Florida for a long time to be with her, and, you know, she was at the house that we were all staying at together. And it was very, like, intimate process.

John [00:02:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:25]: And, you know, we were there with your dad and your sister, and a few other people were coming, too. And I just wanted to be able to support you guys in whatever way.

John [00:02:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:41]: Like, during and after, you know, and then allowing you to have the space to process it, like, however you wanted to process it in that way.

John [00:02:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:02:54]: And, you know, for me, I Never wanted to, like, force you, but I also wanted you to feel like you could talk about it.

John [00:03:02]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:04]: Which is hard because it's like, I do feel like, kind of afterwards, you didn't talk a lot about it, and I didn't want to, like, force you to, but I wanted you to. To, like, be able to have that option, you know? And even now, if you, like, have moments where you're feeling it, I want you to be able to talk about those things. And so I think that it's hard because I think if you were, like, drowning in it, that would have been different.

John [00:03:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:36]: A different experience. But I also would have understood.

John [00:03:39]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:40]: At the same time, if that makes sense. Like, I feel like. Because I did that when I lost, like, my grandmother, like, I just drowned in it for, like, a week. And I was single at the time, so I didn't, like, have somebody that I was living with or, like, involved with that.

John [00:03:58]: But they give you a call.

Nicole [00:04:00]: You did. You did. But I'm. I'm just saying, like, I. You know, it is different when you're in a romantic relationship, and it's different, like, because, like, what if you did go into this place where you didn't want to get out of bed and things like that? Like, that's where I was at.

John [00:04:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:22]: And you're the one, though, that's, like, providing for us. Like, what if it was hard for you to get out of that? Like, I would have understood all those things, but I think it would have been incredibly difficult to try to figure out how to help you out of it without.

John [00:04:41]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:41]: Making you feel like you couldn't still grieve. Does that make sense?

John [00:04:45]: Yeah, I think, coincidentally enough, that his and her show that we watched that, you know, whatever. It was like.

Nicole [00:04:53]: Yeah. On Netflix.

John [00:04:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:57]: Sponsor us.

John [00:04:58]: Netflix.

Nicole [00:04:58]: We'll talk about all your movies.

John [00:05:00]: Netflix is doing podcasts now, so. But there was an interaction with them in the rain when they addressed this issue, which I thought was actually really good. I mean, some of the. I won't go spoiler, but I won't do the spoiler. But some of the things that. It makes sense. But that was some really good scripting. That was a very good dialogue that the two had, because essentially what had happened. And I don't think this is much of a spoiler because.

Nicole [00:05:32]: Know.

John [00:05:32]: But is that the. They had lost their child. Right. So from, like, sudden in infant deaths. It's, you know, whatever. When she had. They had let her mother watch the child and the child had died. No fault of the mother. Hard to. Okay, I won't say anything. But anyway, the thing that happened was that after that occurred, then she left. Just disappeared for, like, a year. Didn't say anything. Didn't say, like, no one could track her down. And he ended up losing his job because his wife went missing. And he's like, the detective, right? And all these things. And so, you know, then she just shows up and. And. And it basically, like, you know, from his perspective, he's like, what the. Like. Like this. You just freaking laughed, you know, and at first you're like, okay, yeah, what the. You know, it's like she obviously. But then when you actually hear her perspective of why she left, it kind of makes more sense. Like. Like, you can see both sides. That's why thing is called his and her. It's really. I think the entire thing is based on that one conversation. That's the entire point of the entire series or, you know, movie or whatever you want to call it, is that one thing. Because when you see her perspective of it, and it's that she wanted to grieve the child, and he was kind of trying to help her, trying to get her out of the funk, and she felt like the grieving that she had for the child was all she had left of the child.

Nicole [00:07:25]: Right?

John [00:07:25]: And so. And I think that's just an important perspective, is that when someone's grieving, it's like your instinct is to try and help them because you want to, you know, take them out of that pain. But in reality, like, that grieving is all that they have left of that. Like, they're. They don't want that to disappear quickly. They don't want to be pulled out of that, because that's what they have left. And eventually they will come out of it. But your best assistance, like, what had forced her away and made her feel like she had to get away, like, she had to, was. It felt like to her that he was trying to take away the last thing that she had of. Of their child, and he was just trying to help her. But. But if you think about, like, what would be the better thing to do would be to allow the person to have what they have, to go through that process and to not try to get them out of it, but instead support them through it, you know, which is what you talked about.

Nicole [00:08:31]: So, yeah, I'm probably gonna cry this whole time.

John [00:08:34]: I know. It's just sad.

Nicole [00:08:36]: It is hard. And, you know, like, it's like all the love that you felt for that person has nowhere to Go. That's what they call the grief, you know, cuz it feels so heavy and.

John [00:08:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:08:53]: Sad and it is. And like you said it, it has. Everybody does it in different ways, but everybody has to feel.

John [00:09:01]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:02]: What they feel, especially with significant people in their lives. Like, and whatever stage of life you are in and accepting your new normal of life. Because that's also hard. I think that's also part of the process is you have to accept that that person is not there anymore. And that's one of the hardest things is that so many like little things we take for granted that we can't have those things anymore.

John [00:09:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:35]: And we can't hear their voice. Like, I know I saved like voicemails that my grandma had sent me when she passed away and you know, and like I said, being there.

John [00:09:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:49]: Like with your family, for your mom.

John [00:09:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:51]: Like I just wanted to help you guys in whatever way that I could. And I know that that's still wouldn't help as far as like what you guys were gonna have to go through and process and your new normal of life. But I just wanted to be able to support you and, and your dad and your sisters in whatever way that I could because, you know, it's incredibly hard. And your sister was dealing with stuff with her dog at the same time, like, and I went with her to like deal with that during it. Yeah. Because I think too, like you were talking about with the show, I think that like people do want to be alone with their emotions sometimes and like how they handle the things, but they also want to know that people are there.

John [00:10:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:47]: Because it can feel like you've lost so much.

John [00:10:50]: Right.

Nicole [00:10:50]: In those moments that even if you want to have, like, you want to feel the grief and you want to be in it.

John [00:10:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:00]: You do want to know that people are there. And that's, you know, that's where if you're the supporting partner, right. Like telling your partner that you're there and like you can feel whatever you want to feel and not trying to like fix it or you know, like, I know we want to be comforting, like.

John [00:11:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:21]: You know, And I do think that the people that are gone from our lives still somewhat can see what we're doing even if we can't see what they're doing.

John [00:11:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:33]: Not everybody might believe that, but yeah. You know, like trying to just comfort your partner without trying to take away their feelings or their emotions.

John [00:11:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:47]: And supporting them the best way that you can. And sometimes that's asking them like, hey, do you want to talk about this or. Or if they don't want to be like, hey, I don't want to talk about this right now, or like, this is kind of like, making me think about these things and I'm upset, like, honoring whatever those things are. But I do think again. Like, I don't. It is hard. Like, the. His or her show. Like, I don't really know what I would have done, maybe differently, if you had gotten to a place where, like, you didn't want to get out of bed and you didn't want to work or you didn't want to whatever. Like.

John [00:12:28]: Well, and that's. And that's the tough thing is because, like, I mean, because as, like, if you're going through grief, it doesn't give you excuse to do whatever the hell you want to do. Right?

Nicole [00:12:39]: Right.

John [00:12:39]: Like, it doesn't give you excuse to, like, not do your duties. It doesn't give you excuse to treat people poor.

Nicole [00:12:46]: Right.

John [00:12:46]: Right. It's like, that's true. You can have that reaction more so when someone's not giving you this space or, like, trying to force you through the emotions. I can get that. But it still is on you to, like, even though you're bearing something that's a heavy burden to bear, like, you still have to show up and still have to do the things. Yeah. I mean, maybe you take some time off of work or whatever, but, like, if you're a parent, you still parent. Like, you don't get to be like, okay, like, I'm just gonna stay in bed all day and. And my kids are just gonna run around like, no, you gotta, like, show up and be a parent. Because that's what you know. And the thing about it too, is it's like, not to minimize it, but it's. It's an experience we're all gonna go through. Like, you know, we talked about it the other day or the night where it's like, our parents are gonna die. It's gonna happen. Like, we're gonna deal with it. Our lot of, you know, relatives, like. Or something can happen to us. But like, I'm just saying, like, every single person is. Is slated for the same fate. Like, you're, You're. You live long enough, your parents will die and you'll have to deal with that. So. So it's like, the reason why I say that is not that. Not to take away from those things, but to, like, you're not special in the sense that you had something happen to you that's not going to happen to everyone else. And so you get to treat everyone however you want to. That's not like you have to recognize it happened to you, but it's going to happen to everyone else or it has already happened to them. They've already dealt with this experience. And so, you know, again, not to minimize it or to. But it's just because I think some people in their grieving process, they can forget that there's other people, you know, involved in and they have responsibilities and things like that. So, you know, it was a weird one for me. Like, it's a bad example for me. I don't know, it's hard to say because with my mom, what was happening was I was also going through the grieving process of the divorce situation. Right. You know, when your life changes, when you've been in a 20 year relationship and family. And that was happening at the same time. And then also with my mom having Parkinson's over, you know, it was hard because she was already in some ways gone. But you know, she wasn't totally. But like I had lost her gradually over 10 years.

Nicole [00:15:17]: Yeah.

John [00:15:18]: And so this was the final. But it didn't feel. It wasn't. So the grieving process wasn't as much for me because it wasn't, it wasn't like all sudden you have this person, then they're gone.

Nicole [00:15:32]: Yeah.

John [00:15:33]: It was more like. Like she disappeared. Like faded out of existence is the best way I could put it. So it's still a sad thing, but it's drawn out over 10 years. And so that grieving process was drawn for me. Drawn out over 10. I think maybe my sisters processed it in a different way, in a more immediate way. But for me, that's how I felt. Like it's hard to even remember, you know, which in a way makes it even worse is that you can't even remember how this person was. Like now I have those memories and more so than I did but at that time, like. Because how she was with the Parkinson's affecting her was so present, those memories overrid the other ones.

Nicole [00:16:18]: Yeah.

John [00:16:19]: But now from a zoomed out perspective, I can, you know, I can access those other mem. Of who she actually was before the Parkinson's took it away from her. But. But yeah, I mean, I mean, you showed up and you gave me the space like I said it was. I didn't go through a major grieving process because it, it had happened over years and I also had other trauma in my life that was. Was affecting me at that, at that time as well. But, but you know, I Even during that process, I still shot videos while we were there. Like, I still answered my email, like, did the things that I needed to do because I'm, you know, like, life goes on after this, and I can't just drop my responsibilities or just treat people poorly just because I'm going through something. So, yeah, so it's a balance, you know what I'm saying? It's like, and I don't know if you got to a point, like, let's say that you have someone who won't get out of bed and they're just, like, moping around and they're, you know, for over an extended period of time.

Nicole [00:17:26]: I mean, that was me for like a week until I had to be like, yeah, my grandma would be so upset with me if she found out I've been in this bed for a week.

John [00:17:36]: A week is, Is. Is. Is. I think that's understandable. Like, I think if you take off from work for a week, if it's a major, you know, person in your life and, you know, obviously there's certain things, like if you're a parent or whatever, you have to take care, you know, you can't excuse that, you know, But. But if you, like, don't feel like doing much or getting out of bed for a week and grieving, like, I think that's fine. It's just a matter of when it starts to go. Two weeks, three weeks, a month, some people, several months of not getting out of bed, not doing what they're supposed to be doing. You know, I think at that point, if that's happening with your spouse, then you do have to. Maybe they need the other kind of love, which is the harder love, which is to say, like, look, I know you're going through this. I'm here to support you. But, you know, in. In some ways you're kind of being selfish because, like, this is not a unique experience that you are only going to go through. But, like, you have responsibilities. Like, you need to get your life together and, you know, you're not like, you know, you know, to put. To give them the kind of little bit of the tougher love to be like, hey, you're. You're kind of. You're turning what happened to someone else and to you, your experience and you being the victim and having the victim mindset. And you got to actually start to do, like, you can grieve as long as you want, but you need to take care of the responsibilities that you have and, and. And not treat people, you know, poorly just because you're going through a thing, and, you know, so I. I mean, I haven't had to go through that conversation, but I'm sure that would be a hard one.

Nicole [00:19:12]: Yeah. Which I think that anybody's loved one that's past, you know, wouldn't want them to, like, blow up their lives. And I think, like I said, that's what really helped me when I was in it, you know, be like, this is what she would want.

John [00:19:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:19:31]: Yeah. I mean, we're gonna go through it, like you said, in other ways, so it's gonna be hard, but.

John [00:19:39]: Yeah. And. And I mean, that's the thing about, like, even just about the reality of being a parent is that you now have this. This thing, this human that's out there that, you know, it's not unlikely that they'll die. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, before you. Like, it's. It's.

Nicole [00:20:01]: I mean, like, no parent wants to have to face that, but it's, like, a possibility. Like you said, with any living thing.

John [00:20:09]: They'Re driving cars when they're 16 years old. Like, they're, you know, they're. They're doing things like, they don't have. Like, they're. They're. You know, they're in risky situations that you have no control over. So you might have to deal with that. You know what I mean? Like, but you have to kind of. And I think that's one of the things, too, is just to, like. It helps. Memento Mori, you know, they remember your mortality, but not just yours, but everyone else. Like, I think it's useful. I think what helped me, too, also with my mom, is that I knew it was coming.

Nicole [00:20:43]: Yeah.

John [00:20:44]: And we've had the conversation. I'm like, our parents will die. It might seem like a morbid conversation, but it's an important one to have and to just focus on that. Not to focus your whole life on that, but to realize that, okay, your parents will die, it will happen. Like, you will die, it will happen. Right. But if you have a child, that child could die, and you might have to deal with that, and that could. Could happen. Or if you have a spouse, your spouse may die, and that could happen, but those are important things. I think it will help you to not be hit as hard by the thing when you've already sort of. I mean.

Nicole [00:21:22]: I mean, yes, it will help.

John [00:21:24]: Yeah. To deal with.

Nicole [00:21:26]: I'm just sensitive.

John [00:21:28]: I know, But. But it doesn't mean that you're not going to feel anything, but. But it will help you to Be able to, even as you're feeling the thing, to go on with life. Yeah. Because you've already pre accepted it. Right. It's the struggle. I think that's what puts someone in that downward spiral, is that they're in denial of it.

Nicole [00:21:47]: Well, I think, like you said, there is something. Cause, like, even with my grandma, she had breast cancer that turned into bone cancer. And with your mom, she had Parkinson's. And I had another relative pass away recently who was going through cancer. And it's like, yeah, you do have some peace knowing they're not in pain anymore and they're not going through the things that they went through that took so much out of them. And, like, you have that, like, sort of peace. But I think that if it's like, abrupt and like a car accident or something, there is a different sort of processing to it.

John [00:22:29]: Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think so.

Nicole [00:22:31]: Like, how it happens also affects the grieving process, I think, because at least for me, like, with my grandma and like, my other relative that recently passed away, I'm like, at least they're not in pain anymore and dealing with cancer treatments and surgeries and.

John [00:22:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:49]: All of this stuff. But like, when it's also abrupt, though, even in those situations, it's like, could they have had more time? It's like the mystery of it. Or like, especially if it's a child.

John [00:23:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:03]: And it's a car accident or something. It's like they had their whole life ahead of them, you know? And I believe that everything happens for a reason, even the bad stuff. But, yeah, it's hard.

John [00:23:15]: Yeah. Yeah. And I think the big thing is just. Just like we said, like, you know, that movie is a show. I don't know what you call it, but the Netflix series, the limited series on Netflix is a great, like, that dialogue. I think that really nails it. I mean, and that's the thing is like. But. But it's. It's both perspectives. Right. Because it's like you have to allow a person to grieve and to. To not try to push them through it or get them over it.

Nicole [00:23:47]: Right.

John [00:23:47]: At the same time, like I said, they have to do their responsibilities. They can't just check out of life. Like, that's not fair. It's not fair to put 100% burden on the other partner to do everything while they're going. Obviously, you should try to help them as much as possible, but at the same time, you can't just check out. You can't just leave. You can't just be like, you gotta talk about it. And even if someone is pushing you through it, then you gotta kind of say, hey, communicate. I need, I need the space to, like. I want to go through this process, you know, so it's hard for me too, I think, because. Yeah. I mean, like, just me in general. I don't want to, I don't want to call it like a, I don't want to call it a sociopath, but, but, but, but I, I, I tend to be more towards that. Like, I don't, I don't think I'm a sociopath. I don't think that. But, but I tend to be more towards that. So, like, you know, more towards a sociopath. More, more towards the sense that, like, things that happen don't hit me as hard. You know what I mean? Like, like, I, you know, I don't, I don't process things that, that way. You know, I'm more.

Nicole [00:25:06]: I tell you to put hamburger seasoning on the hamburgers.

John [00:25:10]: Yeah, but.

Nicole [00:25:10]: No, I'm just kidding.

John [00:25:11]: No, but, but I'm more detached in that, in that way. I don't, I don't know how exactly how to describe it, but. Yeah, so, so it's like I can't make myself feel a bunch of grief. Like, when my mom passed, I tried to, like, experience the gravity of the situation, but nothing I could do could make me, like, bring me to tears about, you know, it's like at different times, I've been, I've, I've been, I've cried and been sad about it, but yeah, I don't, you know, it's hard to describe the situation. It's not that I don't have any kind of empathy. It's just that it doesn't, it doesn't hit me the same way as.

Nicole [00:25:57]: And you don't feel like you've repressed it or anything?

John [00:26:00]: No, Like, I've tried to explore and try to. Fine. But, but most of life is, is kind of like that, you know, not that I don't get upset or cry or get, you know, it's like, But I don't know, it's just a little bit different.

Nicole [00:26:16]: So that's interesting.

John [00:26:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:20]: Because I feel like I've accepted it. Like.

John [00:26:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:24]: I have a big, like, extended family. This is not like the first loss. Like, it's probably the. My grandma was like the first close, close person to me that I've lost.

John [00:26:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:38]: But even, like, knowing that we all are going there and I even believe in life or, like, something after this.

John [00:26:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:26:47]: I don't Want to say life after death? Because I don't. I don't think that. I mean, maybe, but.

John [00:26:52]: Do you believe in life after love?

Nicole [00:26:55]: Okay, sure. But no, I believe that like we'll see these people again. I do believe that. But it still makes me sad.

John [00:27:03]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. It is still a heavy thing. Yeah.

Nicole [00:27:11]: Yeah. So I think you're sociopath though. But I think that maybe you just process it differently. And like you said your mom, she was going through so much stuff over a long period of time.

John [00:27:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:27:27]: You know that that's like different because I don't know if maybe you would have the same reaction if you lost someone else in a different way.

John [00:27:38]: Yeah. I don't know. It's hard to. It's hard to say. It's like, it's even. Like, even just with my dad now. Like, I know that sometime he's good, he's. He smokes, he drinks every night. Like there's. It's amazing that he's made it, you know, like it really is. I don't know what he's gonna do. Yeah. No. But I hope that he does. But I've also in some way felt that I've been losing him slowly as well because. And after my mom passed and things like, I feel like we all kind of lost him to a degree. Like he's not the same. Like he's. He lost so much of himself when my mom passed that like that the. The who he was, was. Is. Is already kind of lost, maybe that to me. So it's like when he does pass, I also feel like the same. Like, not to say that there won't be a grieving process, but.

Nicole [00:28:35]: Right.

John [00:28:35]: It won't be a slap in the face and you know, like, again, it'll be a similar thing to. To my mom. At least that's how I, you know, how I see it.

Nicole [00:28:45]: I think that makes sense because I feel like if you feel like you're losing somebody slowly, it's like by the time it happens, you've like already had that time to accept it, but when it's abrupt, you don't have that. And I feel like it is different because I feel like if maybe, you know, he hadn't went through what he went through and it was different, you.

John [00:29:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:09]: Might feel differently.

John [00:29:11]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:12]: But I understand what you're saying because maybe you're. It's just a more drawn out process and that's why you're able to process it differently because you've been in these instances where it is Kind of more drawn out in a way. And even now, like you said with your dad, sometimes he'll say certain things that's like, almost like preparing you.

John [00:29:33]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:34]: Like you. You're almost being like, prepared for it.

John [00:29:37]: Yeah. Which. Which in a way is. Is a. It's a good thing. But not to like. But. But there's a thing like. Okay, so there's like, memento mori, which is like, to remember that you'll die. Like, to focus on, like to. To look at that and you know, to. To focus on the. Not the focus, but to remember the mortality that we all have that's in our lives. But then there's also people who are. Account themselves dead before they're. You know, it's like they've already counted their life gone.

Nicole [00:30:09]: Yeah. Yeah.

John [00:30:10]: And it's hard because I understand that psychology a little bit, because I've been tempted to kind of fall into that psychology at times where it's like, okay, I messed up my arm and my legs fall over. Well, but it's like. And like, you know, and I'm, you know, 45 now, and I'm not 30 anymore, and it's like, okay, well, it's like, you know, like, there's. There's a part of. Of you that can be like, it's just.

Nicole [00:30:38]: It's just downhill from here.

John [00:30:40]: Yeah, it's like. It's like, yeah, like, you're. But. But it's like, so. It's like. So you can kind of say, well, what's the point of going to the gym? Like, you're not going to be as good as you were before or what's the point of running? Or like, but because you have. That's the. That's the bearing yourself before you've, like, as long as I've got, like, you know, like, even in the gym this morning when I was looking at my arm, you know that I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna be like, I might have a deformity in my arm, but I'm gonna be the most jacked version of everything that I can work through. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm going to, like, maybe my leg will never be the way that it was before, but it doesn't matter. I'm gonna do the, like, I'm gonna be the best version of what I can be. That's the will to live, like, to continue. So I think. I didn't want to go on too much of a tangent, but there's a difference between remembering that you are mortal and you will die, and all people in your life will die eventually. All relationships eventually end versus focusing so much on that or thinking that it's already happened. It's like, just because something is going to happen doesn't mean that it has already happened.

Nicole [00:32:00]: Well, and I think that every day we wake up, honestly, is a gift. And I think the people that we've lost would want us to appreciate those things. Like, yeah, they know that we care about them, but they don't want us to just not go through with our lives because they're not here anymore. They want us to continue to do the things that we're passionate about and to continue enjoying life.

John [00:32:27]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:32:27]: To the fullest. Like, I don't know anyone who would think that their relative or whoever they lost would want them to just give up like you said. They would want them to experience this life and all the good and the bad, because honestly, the bad makes the good even better and it's just a part of life. But I truly don't believe that they would want anyone to just give up and, you know, allow them not being here to prevent them from living their lives like they want. Even though they're not here anymore, they want us to keep getting up in the morning and keep doing the things that we love and remember them, but, you know, create the new normal, unfortunately.

John [00:33:11]: And I think. I think it's like. I think it's also important, just as you know, in a relationship, that you're prepared for what your partner's gonna go through. Right. It's like in some, like, you know, that some day could. Whenever it will be, is that my dad will pass and I'll, like. And so it's like, I know that, like, you know, Toto is not gonna be around forever, and that's gonna be around forever. Okay. Okay. Yeah. But. But like, I've already kind of thought about, like, what am I gonna do in that situation as you're going through that thing? Because it's gonna hit you harder that when your parents go. I mean, that's gonna be a very traumatic experience for you, you know, and like. But I have to be prepared to deal with that.

Nicole [00:33:59]: Yeah.

John [00:33:59]: You know what I'm saying? Because it's gonna happen and you're gonna go through it. And I'm preparing myself now for how will I help you in that situation, you know, But. But I think it's important to do because it's. It's just important for us to recognize for ourselves, but also for our. Our spouse, that our spouse is going to Go through that. That thing and then what. What is. What is going to happen? How are you going to handle it? How are you going to help them? You know, if you've pre thought these things out, then I think it's. It makes it a little bit easier. So.

Nicole [00:34:35]: Yeah, but I think too, just supporting them, you know, and like, kind of letting your partner lead the way with how they want to handle this. Like you said, obviously, if it reaches into like three months they haven't gotten out of bed, that's different. Yeah, but I think, like, letting your partner take the lead on how they want to handle this and then just supporting them is the best way to do it. Because like I said, it's going to be different for everybody. And I honestly think that each instance is different because each person in our life is different. Each way that people pass away is different. And so I think that there is no cookie cutter way, you know, because you just don't know.

John [00:35:21]: It's hard.

Nicole [00:35:22]: You're going to respond, but you can let the person that is going through it grief how they want to, and then you just support them in whatever way you feel is best to do that and not to, like, step on their toes. Like, let them.

John [00:35:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:35:37]: You know, if they're like, I need to go on a walk, you know, by myself, let them go on a walk. Or I'll be like, do you want me to come in? If they're like, yes, then go. And if they were like, no, then let them go on their own. Like, you know, kind of communicate with them, don't push them, but be open with them.

John [00:35:56]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I agree. I think I forgot what else I was going to say about that, but I think that, I mean, that basically covers.

Nicole [00:36:09]: Yeah, I mean, it's a complicated thing.

John [00:36:11]: I was gonna say, like, sometimes also you don't know what's going on beneath the surface, because someone might be appearing really strong and handling things, but just that doesn't mean that there's not something going on underneath that they might not even be aware of as well. Right.

Nicole [00:36:27]: You know, then do you think you should ask about it or allow them to kind of process it? Cause that's a good.

John [00:36:34]: I mean, ultimately. Well, here, actually, this is a good part of this to talk about, which is that if your partner's going through grief, they do owe you to talk about it. Like, they can't be like, I'm not gonna talk about it, or I don't want to talk about it because you're still in a relationship and like, I think the thing is, is that if you cannot rely on each other when you're going through stuff, then you don't really have a relationship. You know what I mean? Like, because when you're going through the worst things in your life, the person you should be bringing into that should be your partner. Otherwise, you're probably with the wrong person. Like, or you need to fix a relationship. And so I think both. Like, as a person that is grieving, like, you do owe it to your partner to share your feelings and talk about the thing and go with on, like, you. You can't be like, I just want to deal with this on my own. That's not okay. Like, you're.

Nicole [00:37:35]: What if you don't want to burden somebody with it, it's not.

John [00:37:38]: It shouldn't. Like, it shouldn't be a burden, and it shouldn't feel like a burden. And it's like, in. Again, you know, like, you. It's a selfish thing in a way, to not want to burden someone, even though it sounds like it's not a selfish thing. It's like, because you're denying them the opportunity to give to you, which is, you know, like. Like it's a counterintuitively selfish thing to. To do that. Right. It's like when someone gives you a gift and you. You are a compliment and you. And you refuse it because, like, it's like, a selfish thing to do. Doesn't feel like a selfish thing, but it is because we all want to be able to give and to help. And so when you deny someone that ability, it actually kind of goes into the whole thing where we got the question about the birthday from King. Yeah. About a partner not wanting to celebrate their birthday or, you know, and it's like, no, that's actually a selfish thing to do, even though you don't mean it that way. It seems like a selfish thing, but it's a selfish thing because you're denying the other person the. The ability to give you happiness or to, you know, comfort you or whatever. Like, to. To express, like, a positive emotion towards you. Like, you're shutting yourself off from them in that case, you know, because it's not. Because it's not just about you. Like, you know, like. And that's the thing is going back to kind of the grieving thing is that you do. You do need to share it, and it is okay, you know, if you're. If your partner's going through grief to be like, hey, like, it. Like. Like, you know, I. I do want to talk to you about this, like, and to. Because otherwise it is like. Like they're not coming to you. You know, like, it's important that in a relationship when we're in pain, that we come to each other for support. If we're not doing that, then we're closing off. It's either you're either coming to or closing off. And so I think that is actually important.

Nicole [00:39:52]: Well, like you said, too, it's like, you should want the comfort and support from your partner. And like I said earlier, even though I did say if someone wants their alone time, I agree with you, actually, that you should lean on your partner for that stuff, even if it feels hard to do. But like I said earlier, you know, like, even if you feel like you just want to be alone, dealing with your emotions, there is still a part of you that wants someone there. And so, like you said, allow your partner to be there for you because you want it deep down and you need it probably in that instance. And your partner wants to do that for you.

John [00:40:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:37]: And you need to be open with them and share that side. Because I think that's what I was a little afraid of, too, after your mom passed away, that you didn't really talk to me very much after, and you didn't really talk as much about it. And I did get afraid that maybe you were, like, suppressing it. Yeah, in a way.

John [00:40:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:57]: But you have brought it up, you know, here and there when it comes up for you, and I'm glad that you do that.

John [00:41:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:04]: I think, too, like, we talked a lot about losing people in our lives, but you mentioned it, too, when you were going through the divorce thing. I think that we also grieve things in our lives as well, too, like endings of things. Like. Like you said, like, you had to grieve. I'm sure in some degree that your leg and your arm aren't going to be the same, you know, and, like, sometimes those things are also really hard. Like, it's not the same as losing somebody, but.

John [00:41:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:35]: It is still grief.

John [00:41:36]: It is. Yeah. Because it's.

Nicole [00:41:37]: It's grieving. Yeah. The. The like, thing that it's not something.

John [00:41:41]: When something is permanently changed and it can never be undone. That's where grief comes in. Right. Any situation that. That occurs and that can happen. There's a lot of situations where that can occur in life. You know, like I said, a divorce, a loss of function of the body in some way. You know, a loved one, obviously, but. But yeah. And it. All those things still apply, so. Right.

Nicole [00:42:04]: You still have to be there and allow your partner to be there for you. And there is, like, an acceptance that you need. Because I feel like. Like what you mentioned too, about, like, if you just already feel like you're at death's door.

John [00:42:20]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:42:20]: And you've kind of given up. Like, that's. That's no way to really live. Like, you have to accept your new normal and go on from there. And it's the same with losing somebody. Like, it's a hard new normal to accept, especially when it's. You've lost a person in your life and you have that hole there.

John [00:42:41]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:42:42]: But you do have to accept it, and you have to, you know, realize that this is like another chapter. It's a different chapter than all the other chapters, but it's just a new chapter. And like I said, I believe that all the people that aren't here anymore would want us to continue our books, not just stop.

John [00:43:02]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:43:03]: You know, so.

John [00:43:04]: Yeah. Yeah, it's a hard thing to go through, but. But, yeah, but like I said, you do have to go through it together as a couple. I think that's. I think that's really the key.

Nicole [00:43:15]: Yeah.

John [00:43:15]: Because, you know, if I look at, like, it would, you know, the day that you have a major loss in your life, it would hurt me more than the death of someone in my life to have you be going through an immense amount of pain and suffering and for you not to come to me, that would feel like a second death to me. You know what I'm saying? Like a more severe one. Because. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, like, that would feel like a. A separation that would be worse, you know, And I think that's the thing to think about is like, you know, a lot of times when things happen to us, our instinct is to be like, I just want to deal with this. I just, like, leave me alone. But. But one. It's actually not good for you anyway. Right. To just isolate. Isolating will make you more depressed. But when you have a partner, like, you have to go through the things, all things in life together because you've chosen a journey, like, for good or for bad, like your happiness and your sadness, to face those things together.

Nicole [00:44:28]: That's true.

John [00:44:29]: That's important. Like, you don't want to be shut out when your partner's going through that. You want them to come to you when they're in pain, you know, in vice versa. So.

Nicole [00:44:40]: Yeah. And I think as the spouse or partner to the person that's going through grief, it is a delicate Balance. But like I said, if you view it more as, like, allowing them to feel their emotions and then just supporting them through what they need.

John [00:44:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:57]: That's the best way to handle it. Because you also don't want a partner if you're grieving and they're like, tell me what's wrong. Tell me what's wrong. Like. Like, well, like, it's okay. Or, you know, like, I don't. You don't want them to, like, be pushy and.

John [00:45:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:12]: Like the show you were talking about. Be like, oh, well, like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Like, yeah, like there's a way to say that without just saying, like, it'll be fine. Like, right. You know, they're better now or something. Like, more abrupt. Like, there's a way to give that sort of feeling without saying those things, and that's actually more beneficial is to be present because that makes the person feel like they'll be fine because they have your. You there to support them and whatever they're going through that actually makes them feel like they'll be fine.

John [00:45:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:45:48]: Rather than be like, oh, you'll be fine, like, it'll be okay. Time heals all wounds or whatever people say, you know, like those things.

John [00:45:56]: Yeah. And it's. I mean, a lot of it is how it said. Like, the same sentiment like you said could be said. Like, even if you said, you know, if you tell someone time heals all wounds versus, you know, versus saying that, you know, in time, you know, this is going to get easier and I'm with you every step of the way.

Nicole [00:46:18]: Right.

John [00:46:18]: It's still saying time heals all wounds.

Nicole [00:46:20]: Yeah.

John [00:46:21]: Right. But it's saying it in a way that, you know, that. That comes from.

Nicole [00:46:26]: Isn't dismissive.

John [00:46:27]: But. But the whole thing is just like, even just a good metaphor for. Or example, like the dealing with someone going through grief is just good for dealing with emotions. Anyone going through any kind of emotions in a relationship, you know, it's the same principles still apply as to.

Nicole [00:46:45]: That's true.

John [00:46:46]: Not trying to force them through the emotion or try to change the emotion, but to empathize. Where are they at right now? And be with them. And it's almost like the best example I can give is you. Well, actually a good one is that. That movie what Dreams May Come. You know, the Robin Williams one where he has to go into the house where his wife is and be there with her in order to get her out. You can't just pull a person out. You can't Just be like, snap out of. Like, you have to be there with them and then guide them back out to the light. And that's the. The thing is, like, unless you're willing to be there with them, that's. That's because then you're creating the separation yourself. But. But that's just for any kind of emotional state that someone's going through. You gotta meet them where they're at first. Understand, empathize. And then, yeah, you can guide them to a better place. You can change the emotion, but it's like, it's a. It's a. With them as opposed to, you know, I'm gonna fix you in some way, you know, and that's because everyone is resistant to having their emotions fixed or patched, but people aren't resistant to being someone, being with them, with the thing and then guiding them to. To a better place. So.

Nicole [00:48:16]: That's true. Yeah, that's very true.

John [00:48:18]: Yeah. All right. I think we covered all that. We can really cover with this one.

Nicole [00:48:25]: But, yeah, I feel like this is hard because, again, like, everyone grieves in different ways. But I think you've given some really good advice. Hopefully I have, too, in between the crying. But it's hard.

John [00:48:38]: It is. And everyone's going to go through it. That's the thing is, like, so you have to be. If you're in a relationship, you are going to go through grief yourself and your partner is going to go through grief. You're going to have to deal with it.

Nicole [00:48:50]: That's true.

John [00:48:51]: You know, the worst thing that can happen will happen. Like, I mean, it's not, you know, but, you know, that's. That's where we're all fated to. So in everyone in our life. So it's important to know that and be prepared for that so that you can handle the situation but not live your life in fear of that. That's the other.

Nicole [00:49:13]: Which. That's hard.

John [00:49:15]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:16]: But no, you're right.

John [00:49:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:20]: And it is. It's a hard thing to go through. It's like I said, I think it's just the abrupt change that happens if it's a person you've lost, if it's something in your life that's permanently different, like you said, like, that abrupt change that, like, seeming like your whole life is, like, completely changed in some way, yet weirdly the same. It's very complicated.

John [00:49:48]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:49]: Thing. But, yeah, that's why I think, like you said a lot of the advice you gave and I gave is it's from a more simplified place.

John [00:50:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:01]: You know, accepting that this is the fate of everyone and, you know, but also just being with someone and supporting them and, you know, allowing them to grieve, how they need to grieve.

John [00:50:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:20]: Is really the best things that you can do.

John [00:50:23]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:25]: All the other stuff you just figure out along the way, it's all the same thing, but just different versions.

John [00:50:31]: Yeah. All right, well, with that, we'll end the episode. And, yeah, if you have a question for us, you can email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com or visit the website betterthanperfectpod.com and like. And subscribe. And.

Nicole [00:50:54]: Share.

John [00:50:55]: And share. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, you know, if it can be helpful to someone. Like, I mean, that's the purpose. Like, I think we don't say it really. Maybe it's worth saying is that, like, all the content that we're creating here, it costs us money every single month to make and obviously time. But, like, the purpose of why we're doing it is to help people.

Nicole [00:51:20]: Yeah. So I don't cry on camera because I like to.

John [00:51:24]: It's not a business, you know, it's not something that makes money. It's something that. That we. As an investment into. Into.

Nicole [00:51:33]: Because we care.

John [00:51:34]: Yeah, exactly. That's why we do it, you know, because it is a lot of work and resources to create this show. And.

Nicole [00:51:43]: But we want to help people.

John [00:51:44]: Yeah. And. And just the transparency and the, you know. Yeah. To. To do that, we don't have to.

Nicole [00:51:52]: Put ourselves out here.

John [00:51:53]: Yeah. So when we say share it, like, we're not saying it because it's like, we get paid. When you share it, it's because.

Nicole [00:51:59]: Share to help people.

John [00:52:01]: Yeah. All right, we'll see.