Nicole [00:00:00]: We were watching Jurassic Park, Lost World or whatever. The volcano blows up, and everyone gets on the boat.

John [00:00:06]: You're just talking about it.

Nicole [00:00:07]: And the brontosaurus is left behind on.

John [00:00:10]: A flaming island, and we're watching him die.

Nicole [00:00:14]: First of all, it's an A CGI image. It's not even close to real. Right. Dinosaurs went extinct from a meteor all day. Dinosaurs die from a meteor. Then I look over at Nicole, and she's crying. My first instinct was to explain it and be like, are you crazy? Are you seriously crying about all the.

John [00:00:29]: Things that you just said?

Nicole [00:00:30]: But that was my first instinct, and then I realized that it's not crazy. It's beautiful. Why beyond the perfect we discover through.

John [00:00:38]: Our flaws we complete each other.

Nicole [00:00:42]: Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. Welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other become better equals one better than perfect relationship. I lost it at the end. Yeah.

John [00:01:07]: Good job.

Nicole [00:01:07]: So welcome back.

John [00:01:09]: Yeah, we were just talking about dreams, but we won't get too into that.

Nicole [00:01:12]: No, we cannot go into that topic too much. A different. That's not even a different episode. It's a different podcast.

John [00:01:19]: Not anything to do with relationships whatsoever, but it's okay.

Nicole [00:01:22]: But. Yeah, but we did have. We have been stressed out this morning and working on the. Actually, because we're time traveling because the first episode is coming out today for us of this podcast. So go back in time and watch it.

John [00:01:37]: Yeah. Do a little time traveling.

Nicole [00:01:40]: Yeah. So we've been working on that. So. Yeah. So now the episodes will be coming out on a weekly basis. Yeah. This is officially our launch, even though this is the sixth episode for you.

John [00:01:51]: So it's very inception of us just now.

Nicole [00:01:54]: But yeah. Okay. So it's my week to pick the topic. So my topic is how to handle conflict in a relationship. And it's supposed to be a controversial kind of topic, but that's just. It's already controversial. It's already conflict itself.

John [00:02:18]: I think as long as it's, like. It's realistic. Like, everybody deals with that. We deal with it. Obviously, we'll dive more into that, but, like, it's very beneficial.

Nicole [00:02:29]: Yeah.

John [00:02:29]: So it doesn't always have to be, like, us coming for each other's necks, but, you know, that makes for fun. Fun video.

Nicole [00:02:36]: We don't come for each other's necks. We just present different perspectives of the thing.

John [00:02:42]: Yes.

Nicole [00:02:43]: Which is true. So. Yeah.

John [00:02:44]: All right, well, what's. You guys start with your perspective on.

Nicole [00:02:47]: On conflict. On how to handle conflict.

John [00:02:49]: Yeah. Or like, where you want to go with this.

Nicole [00:02:51]: Yeah. So, I mean, my thoughts around it were. Around just. Especially some of the things that I've learned recently that are relearned, I would say, because it's easy to forget things that you have figured out and to get sucked into conflict. So I guess my thing on it would be what causes the conflict, how to avoid having the conflicts or having them go bad. And then really, I think the perspective from both the male and the female, man and woman. You know, what, as a man, can you do to have better conflicts, higher quality conflicts that are constructive, because conflict isn't bad by itself, but constructive conflicts. And then in the same that you could present your side of what is it as a woman? And there's some commonality, too. Right. Things that both people can do always to better communicate. And I guess we don't really have to go over the standard four Horsemen of.

John [00:04:01]: Can you remember all four precisely because, I mean, I know one of them.

Nicole [00:04:06]: Right. One is criticism.

John [00:04:08]: I thought it was defensiveness.

Nicole [00:04:09]: Okay. I think that's.

John [00:04:10]: I think one of them is.

Nicole [00:04:11]: But we'll just talk about from our perspective, even though those are. Because everyone talks about the four Horsemen. So. Yeah. So, I mean, what do you. I guess. Yeah. What do you think about.

John [00:04:20]: Well, normally you're supposed to start with your perspective, but if you want me to start. I mean, conflict is a very. Like, this is a very broad thing. So I know that you kind of laid out how you want to talk about it. So the first thing you said was what, like, what causes it? Yeah, Well, I think it's obvious that, like, hurt causes the conflict. And, like. Because that's where all issues start. Right. Like, even if somebody's like, hey, like, you did this, and it made me feel this way, like, that's still. They got hurt somehow.

Nicole [00:04:57]: Yeah.

John [00:04:58]: So I think it all stems from feelings got hurt, someone got hurt, or they're feeling a certain type of way about something. But normally it's like hurt. Hurt or upset or what. Those sort of group of emotions. And what's really hard is that when you're feeling those emotions, it can kind of overpower your, like, logical, thinking brain in that moment. Right. Because I know a thing that us women tend to do when we're hurt is sometimes lash out at the same time, like, verbally or, you know, whatever. And we allow our emotions to kind of take over, and we're not really responsible for what we do when we're upset, which I don't think is okay, right. And I'll talk more about that at the end. But you know, typically where I think conflict like goes awry is that those hurt feelings, like, take over everything and they become this like, destructive thing. Like now you're hurt by what somebody did, so you're going to hurt them or you're going to like, show them how hurt you are.

Nicole [00:06:14]: Right?

John [00:06:14]: Or you're going to like, you know, get revenge, you know, and those. And then obviously the other person is going to be hurt and want the same things. So it's like that typically is where a lot of people end up like having crazy, full blown, like hour long, intense fighting conversations. Like, yeah, I'm not saying that we have it to that level, but a lot of people have it to that level and it's very normal, you know, like, and they almost normalize it because I mean, we've even had talks, you know, with our daughter where, you know, sometimes she'll be like, well, I was upset, so I didn't mean it. Where it's like, right. Which we're trying to teach her. Like, even though you're upset, even, even if you're angry, even if you're hurt, you don't lash out on people or you like, you have to still handle it a certain way. And so, you know, I think that's very important, especially for women because like I said, we do typically like kind of go more towards like, you know, oh, you hurt me. Like, it's on from there. But I think that's not the right way to handle it. And even if you try to be really careful about what you say, you might still say something that hurts somebody. So I think it, you know, is important to look at it in a way that we've talked about, which I don't want to like, steal your whole thing here. But yeah, when you look at it from a place of like, being vulnerable, which I think when you're like looking at it more from being vulnerable, it makes you come from a place where you're like, you're not attacking. You're like, I don't want to say helpless, but you're kind of like a.

Nicole [00:07:54]: Little like, you know, you're putting your, your heart into the other person's hands, right to. And trusting that they'll deal appropriately.

John [00:08:03]: Right. You're not trying to like, guard yourself from it. Like you're fully open. Like it, it can be scary, but you're coming from this place of like, love and like true emotion and not allowing the like, anger or what, like The. The part that wants violence or whatever.

Nicole [00:08:24]: Yeah.

John [00:08:25]: To, like, overtake. Right. Or like, the. The part that, like, wants to guard it yourself. So you're on, like, high alert and you're like, I must protect my heart at all costs.

Nicole [00:08:33]: Right.

John [00:08:34]: So what you and I have talked about is protecting the other person's heart and, you know, looking out for them, which will lead to more constructive criticism type of conversations.

Nicole [00:08:46]: Right.

John [00:08:47]: And not allow there to be that sort of, like, combativeness that a lot of conflicts turn into.

Nicole [00:08:54]: Yeah, yeah.

John [00:08:55]: So, yeah, I feel like I'm, like, taking this whole thing over.

Nicole [00:08:59]: So, I mean, that's a good. I think that's a good summary of. And I would say on that point, like, the thing that initially starts the conflict is. Is some kind of miscommunication or it is hurt. Right, Right. I guess that's what we could say. It's a hurt in some way. And I think that the more close you are with a person, the more the hurt is, even slight things. Because when you feel like you're side by side and they're like, this person really gets me. They understand everything about me and I understand them and we're so close, then any degree of separation feels like a heart, a huge harm. Because you're like, my reality is shattered now. You know this. I guess. I guess she doesn't get me as much as I thought. Or I guess, you know, it's like. Or she must be doing on purpose, or he must be doing on purpose. If it. Because we're. We know each other, you know, well.

John [00:09:50]: And your partner's supposed to be the closest person to you. So obviously when there's miscommunication or hurt, somehow, like, your brain automatically wants to be like, but how could this person do this to me? Or, like, you know, like, I thought I knew them. You know, like, your brain can spot viral and that's where you end up kind of going down that bad road.

Nicole [00:10:08]: Right.

John [00:10:08]: Whereas if you, like, don't come at it from that perspective, you know, like we've talked about, where you're like, I know who this person is. I know they wouldn't hurt me.

Nicole [00:10:17]: Right.

John [00:10:18]: Like, this is just obviously something that we need to talk about and work through in a. A positive way. I mean, as positive as you can, like, there's still going to be some sort of emotion because, like I said, there's usually hurt attached to it somehow. But if you come at it with love as, like, the core, like, attribute, and, like, you know who that person is, rather than feeling betrayed because when you feel betrayed, then you come. You can spiral, and you come up with all these other problems, and, you know, then you start throwing those in there. And then now you're like, talking about a whole bunch of other stuff, which I have done.

Nicole [00:10:58]: Right. We've all done that.

John [00:10:59]: Not perfect.

Nicole [00:11:01]: That's what I was going to say, is that you come in initially with some kind of hurt for whatever reason, and then it either goes one of two ways. Either you interpret that hurt as you come to the person and say, you've hurt me, or you're angry because you're hurt. Goes one of those two ways. And it's like, if you choose the path to be, you hurt me. And now I am upset at you for hurting me. That's the protecting your own heart pathway versus the you hurt me. And now I'm going to be vulnerable about that hurt and give you my heart even further, trusting that you're going to do the right thing. And it's like, it's hard. I think most of the time we want to do the thing that we know that we can take care of ourselves. So if we do this one, you know, it's like, you know, you have control over that situation, but if you do the other one and say, okay, well, here it is, and the risk is that the person may not react in the right way.

John [00:12:03]: Right.

Nicole [00:12:04]: In addition. And so then it creates a double hurt. But, yeah, I think that is really where the start of conflict comes from, is that. And then that choice, like, do you feel betrayed or do you just feel hurt? And can you express that? And if you trust that your partner is going to take care of that and understand that, and you don't need to try and make them do something in response to it, then it's not going to escalate to the point. But then what about the issue of. Well, I mean, I guess we could also talk about how men and women handle it differently or what they. What women's complaints are about men and men's complaints about women in conflict. I think that might make sense. Otherwise, we could say that. I was gonna say, what happens then from that point forward when someone brings up a hurt and how they respond?

John [00:13:00]: Yeah, I mean, I think what happened in my brain when you were just describing it is that I think. I mean, I know that they say everyone has something in their childhood that, like, caused them some sort of trauma. Right?

Nicole [00:13:13]: Yeah. Yeah.

John [00:13:14]: And so. And I do believe that.

Nicole [00:13:16]: Right.

John [00:13:16]: And I think, you know, when we get old enough, we have. We're out on our own. We have to figure it out on our own.

Nicole [00:13:21]: Right.

John [00:13:21]: We maybe had to figure it out on our own when we were even still young, you know? And so I feel like everyone defaults to protect yourself because at some point you are the only one that can do it.

Nicole [00:13:36]: Right. Yeah.

John [00:13:37]: So. And you learn that. And so I feel like it can be hard, and some people never learn it. Like, let's be real. Some people have conflicts all the time. The way that we're talking about where it, like, escalates and it's messy, but they never learn to be vulnerable and to look out for someone else's heart over their own because it is hard. Like, it is hard to unlearn that thing. Right. And it's also like, you know, the reality of it. Like, this person could still leave. This person could do this. Like, you know, so there is still that, like, knowledge that probably makes people hold on to wanting to protect themselves because that's all they can control and that's all they feel like they can do.

Nicole [00:14:19]: Yeah.

John [00:14:19]: But I do agree that, like, this is the only way, really, to not have, like, explosive conflicts and actually, like, get to the root of problems and actually work through them and not really have to deal with them very much after you've had a helpful and, like, healing conversation.

Nicole [00:14:42]: Yeah.

John [00:14:43]: So, yeah, that just, like, popped into okay when you were talking about it, because. Yeah, it kind of. I think it's important to kind of maybe theorize where it comes from, because this is something that I feel like every single person I know has had a conflict that has, like, been blown out of proportion. Right. Like, at some point. And you can't always say the right thing. Right. Sometimes it still goes, you know, a certain type of way. So.

Nicole [00:15:11]: Because you can't know what the right thing. Because you don't know what someone's trauma is or. And so something that might be innocent to you, that's even meant in a good way might come across so you can't rely on. And you also, at the same time, can't expect your partner to say things the right way because they're not a mile.

John [00:15:31]: I think you can expect to. Not if you've had. Well, yeah, a conversation where, like, you don't talk bad about the other person or, like, call names or yell. Like, you can. You can establish those things. But like you said, there are still things that someone's going to be triggered by or offended by that you might not necessarily be because of their own past, their own trauma, like, what they've been through. And, like, you know, obviously, we all need to work towards healing those things, but, you know, we're all human, so.

Nicole [00:16:01]: Right.

John [00:16:01]: Things are gonna happen. But, yeah, I think just when you were explaining it, I think it's important before we got into the other parts to kind of look at it from that perspective, because I don't. I don't think, like. I think it's just our learned behavior, like.

Nicole [00:16:14]: Yeah, exactly.

John [00:16:14]: That we learned growing up. And that when you get in a relationship and you get married that you have to, like, especially when you're married, you have to trust your decision that you made. Right. Because you should be taking the time to make the right decision, you know, or, like, thinking about it enough to feel like I could put my entire life in your hands and trust that you're going to take care of me. Right, Right. And. But I think when we're upset and we're hurt, we're like. And especially if it's by that person, we're like, how am I going to give my heart to this person that hurt it? Right. So, yeah, it's a hard thing, you know, But I think that's why, like, remembering who you actually married or who you're actually in a relationship with and who they are to their core and the things that they show you by what they say and what they do is very important to remember in those moments because it's very easy to allow your emotions and your hurt and whatever to override that and be like, okay, well, now I'm coming at him because he hurt me, right? So. So, like, now I gotta defend myself from him.

Nicole [00:17:18]: Right? And that. And that's. I mean, that's. I think that's the key thing that. That causes the. The conflict to escalate is the defense. Defense. And it's. And if you look at it, because when we've had discussions, right, you've said being defensive, that's the thing that I need to stop doing. And then.

John [00:17:36]: And then I.

Nicole [00:17:37]: Right. And then it's like. But even the act of saying stop being defensive is kind of defensive. You know what I mean? It's like. Because both of those. And what it comes down to is the motive of trying to protect yourself as opposed to trying to love the other person, which. Which, again, it's like I said, I am just as guilty of it as. As, you know, as anyone is, because that's our default. Like, it's. We were just having the conversation with. With Sophia, you know, the other night, and I was telling her about how, like. Well, you know, this girl at school, if she says something, she says you're helpless, or she said something like that, then just don't fight it. There's no need. That's just what she thinks. And there's no need to fight against that or to defend yourself. Just let it be what it is. Or if she points out a mistake that you made and she says it in the wrong way, then just acknowledge, just say, you're correct, I did make that mistake. It doesn't matter that she has this opinion or that she's expressing things in the wrong way. It's when you become that.

John [00:18:42]: But I think our ego wants us to prove ourselves.

Nicole [00:18:45]: It does.

John [00:18:46]: Like, that's really what it is then at that point. Because you know why, like you said, why would you even say anything? Like, it doesn't really matter, but to your ego it does.

Nicole [00:18:57]: Right?

John [00:18:57]: Right. And so you're like, no, I need to tell this person this is who I actually am because they have the wrong idea of me. But in reality, like, you could talk till you're blue in the face, and a person could be committed to misunderstanding you.

Nicole [00:19:09]: Right.

John [00:19:09]: And that is also where conflict can get stretched out, because you do end up being committed to your point of view. You get committed to being your point of view, and then nobody's really budging. Well, you're talking in circles because, like, it's the same thing over and over and over.

Nicole [00:19:24]: Yeah.

John [00:19:25]: Because you're. You're just worried about defending your. Your point of view and yourself, and then you're just worried about defending your point of view and yourself. And so nothing is actually, like, it's not working together. And that's why I think a lot of, like, you know, psychologists or whatever would say, you know, like, work as a team to fight against the issue.

Nicole [00:19:45]: Right.

John [00:19:45]: And, like, that is true. And it can be. But it can be hard. But I think when you, like, look at it, where if you're being defensive and the other person's being defensive, you're not working together as a team now. You're battling against each other.

Nicole [00:19:58]: Right.

John [00:19:58]: Rather than being on the same side.

Nicole [00:20:01]: Right.

John [00:20:02]: And, you know, coming from a place of love and, and understanding and, like, trying to stay connected amongst that, because that's also hard to do. And especially like, oh, yeah, if you grew up and you didn't have that, you know, again, that's something you have to, like, learn how to, like, stay connected when there is disagreement or conflict. Because, you know, a lot of people don't have that.

Nicole [00:20:23]: Yeah.

John [00:20:23]: Like, as their automatic response and What.

Nicole [00:20:26]: I was gonna say about that is, like, if you think about it, like, what are you really trying to do in a conflict? You're trying to be understood.

John [00:20:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:20:34]: And that's why the defensiveness is such a slap in the face, is because it's sort of.

John [00:20:39]: But that's why it's also there. Right?

Nicole [00:20:41]: Yeah.

John [00:20:41]: Because you're trying to express.

Nicole [00:20:44]: Yeah.

John [00:20:45]: Where you're coming from.

Nicole [00:20:46]: Right.

John [00:20:46]: But it's defensiveness. Right. Like you're trying to be understood.

Nicole [00:20:50]: Understood. Yeah.

John [00:20:51]: In that moment.

Nicole [00:20:52]: So.

John [00:20:52]: Well, too.

Nicole [00:20:52]: So what's really got to happen is that the one person who. Let's say that they're bringing up a harm or something, that person has to be met with zero defensiveness so that they can just be understood, even if they're doing it in the wrong way and they're expressing their emotions. You know, there's a degree to it. Obviously, you shouldn't be calling people names and doing stuff. But if you say things in a way because you feel emotional about the thing and you're expressing it without that person being defensive so that they can just understand you, and then once that understanding has happened and it's like, okay, I empathize with what you're saying, and not even. You shouldn't have said it like that. Just. You just forget about that for a minute and say, okay, I get what you're saying. I understand that. I understand you feel that way. I understand you. You know, not at all trying to explain why you did. Yeah. Just. Just taking it all in, then. Just letting that person have their minute to feel understood.

John [00:21:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:45]: And then the tables turn, and now instead of defensive, now it's like, by the way, also, I didn't intend to hurt you. Here's how I feel, and here's what I. And then if, again, the same courtesy is exercised, then you both end up being understood because the conflict is happening. When this person is like, I need to be understood. And this person's like, no, you don't understand me. And it's like, no, I need to be understood. It's like, no, clearly now, you don't understand me. And you're going back and forth, and all you're trying to do is to get the other person to understand you. It's like, I'm not trying to harm you, but. But you harm them by trying to tell them about how much you're not trying to harm them. And, you know, and again, this is. I'm sure this is a familiar cycle because it's where I'm at when I'M in a conflict. I'm like, I'm just trying to just. If you could understand what I'm saying, then you would see how that I don't mean harm.

John [00:22:34]: Where everyone's coming from, though.

Nicole [00:22:35]: Exactly.

John [00:22:36]: That's where everyone's situation, but they also say what exactly you just said too, is that one person should talk and the other person should listen. And then once it's totally done, then the other person can talk and the other person listens. Yeah. Which we don't do that sometimes either. So, like, we're not perfect.

Nicole [00:22:52]: Right.

John [00:22:53]: But we do fall into a lot of the same things that we've talked about. But we do actively try to do it in a healthy way. But it's still, you know, it's fallen.

Nicole [00:23:04]: Challenge and we learn from it, you know.

John [00:23:06]: Yeah, we still, like, you know, make mistakes.

Nicole [00:23:08]: But the listening is important because it's not just because a lot of times people interpret that and they're like, okay, I'm going to listen to this person for a minute. And they're just waiting with their.

John [00:23:17]: To talk defense.

Nicole [00:23:18]: Or they're waiting for their like, oh, oh, oh, I can't believe you said, okay, go ahead. Oh, it's like you're making the dudes like, oh, oh, you think that. Okay, it's like that's not listening. Like, listening in that context means understanding and empathizing.

John [00:23:32]: Right. Putting yourself in their shoes.

Nicole [00:23:34]: Exactly. Not, not to try and figure out how. What does this mean to you? Which a lot of times I think the problem is too, is that, and especially I can say from the, from the male perspective is that when a woman is telling you how she feels, I mean, it doesn't have to be a woman, but it's quite painful.

John [00:23:52]: We don't try to make it painful.

Nicole [00:23:55]: It just because it isn't even that it's being tried, that someone's trying to make it painful. It's just that you're recognizing just all these things that are being interpreted in a way that, that you didn't intend them to be. Which, which again, it's like, oh, man, that's like. It feels like you don't really get me. You don't understand me if you think those things, but that's just how the person feels. Because at the same time as you're thinking that, you're also doing the same thing by taking offense by those things. Right. It's like, you know.

John [00:24:25]: Right. It's the same thing for each person. Like, a woman's going to be upset about certain things that A man wouldn't. And a man's going to be upset by certain things that a woman probably wouldn't.

Nicole [00:24:35]: So let's talk about those things. I think that's good.

John [00:24:37]: So that.

Nicole [00:24:37]: So what are the things that. That women that upset women or have upset, you know, you as a woman, you think or in general, that they.

John [00:24:46]: Would say, I can't speak for all women.

Nicole [00:24:48]: Right.

John [00:24:48]: But words, okay, like you just talked about that the words really shouldn't matter. But I do feel like that is what fuels the hurt inside of me, like, when I'm trying to be vulnerable.

Nicole [00:25:01]: Right?

John [00:25:02]: And, like, things are phrased in a way that.

Nicole [00:25:08]: Like the always and the nevers, right?

John [00:25:10]: Like you never do this. Like, and so that is one of the four horsemen. What, saying that, saying always and nevers. Okay, well. And I'll tell you why.

Nicole [00:25:19]: Someone can check it.

John [00:25:19]: I'll tell you why it bothers women. I'm not. I can't speak for all women, but I'll tell you why. Because I have been reading this book about optimism and talking about depression in the book and stuff too, because they believe that pessimism is related to depression in some sort of way. And women are more likely to be depressed. And in the book, they talk about how women really ruminate on things where men just. If they get upset, they just act. They'll go and go to the bar and drink, or they'll go play a basketball game, you know, they'll like. But women will sit and stew on those things and they'll think about it, right? And they'll like again, too. If you add anxiety into the mix and worrying and things like that, now you're, like, taking this one little thing that, like, you never do this. And now you're like, well, I do this. And, like, so he doesn't notice this. So, like, does he not notice this?

Nicole [00:26:15]: Oh, I see.

John [00:26:15]: So does he do this?

Nicole [00:26:16]: Yeah.

John [00:26:16]: So I feel like that is where women can spiral and end up, like, being upset about one thing and then throwing a bunch of other things in there. Because by the time that a man has even, like, finished the sentence, she's already over here, like, 10 points down, you know, because the second they come outta your mouth, she's like, oh, so he thinks this. So he probably thinks this too. And then he's thinking this. So I feel like it's maybe not the biggest thing, right? But. But it's one of the words do matter to women. I mean, like, think about some of the instances where I've gotten, like, hurt, right? Like with the vitamin thing, I'll bring up the vitamin because it's really not a big deal, but.

Nicole [00:26:53]: Right.

John [00:26:54]: You know, I had these vitamins and I take them, and then you were in there taking one one day, and I was like, why are you taking the gummy ones? Because you just drink the apple cider vinegar. And I like the gummies.

Nicole [00:27:05]: Yeah.

John [00:27:05]: And you were like, well, you're not eating them anyway. And I was like. When you said that, I was not like, the end of the world, but I was like, yeah, that's kind of, like, harsh.

Nicole [00:27:17]: Well, even the way that you said it. It's not the way I said it.

John [00:27:19]: But that's the way you heard it.

Nicole [00:27:20]: That's the way you heard it.

John [00:27:21]: Right? And also I'm like, so does he not pay attention to me because he doesn't know I eat these every day? And then I'm like, so, like, he just doesn't care. Like, and then he can talk to me this way. Like, it's. It's like, coming up. But like you said, it wasn't even, like, really that way, but in my mind, yeah. Those words, though, even though you said them, like, totally normal, there was no, like, so sarcasm, no, like, meanness to it.

Nicole [00:27:44]: Yeah, yeah.

John [00:27:45]: The phrase sounded like that.

Nicole [00:27:47]: Right.

John [00:27:47]: And so my brain automatically put those tones onto this phrase. Right. And so, like, that's what I'm trying. I'm just using this as an example.

Nicole [00:27:57]: Yeah, no, it's a great example. Yeah.

John [00:27:59]: It's not. It wasn't even a huge deal.

Nicole [00:28:01]: Right.

John [00:28:02]: But I. The words did matter because from those words, like you said, you didn't have any sort of tone.

Nicole [00:28:08]: Right.

John [00:28:09]: But the phrase of it.

Nicole [00:28:12]: Right.

John [00:28:12]: In my mind, had a tone to it whether you had it or not.

Nicole [00:28:16]: Right.

John [00:28:16]: And so then it spiraled into these other things. Right, Right. And then now I'm like, I've made gun, like, apple cider vinegar gummies into this huge thing.

Nicole [00:28:27]: And. And it could be from a past trauma type of thing where I wouldn't even know that that would be a trigger phrase or. Or even maybe people had spoken to you with sarcasm before and. And had belittled you or belittled your intelligence before. And that wasn't what I was doing. I was just making an innocent statement. But it gets interpreted that way. Right, but what. Actually, I think it's great that you brought up that example, because when I think about how do you handle that conflict, what makes sense in that case is because you could say. Someone could make the argument and say, well, you shouldn't take offense to something how it's being said because you know that your partner doesn't probably mean it that way. They're just expressing. In this case, it's not even expressing emotion. But the other thing about that, I think, which is more universal, right. Which applies, is the fact that, look, when I said, you're not even taking them anyway, you couldn't really control the emotional response that happened. Like the physical response and what you said afterwards, you're in control of. But you felt a way about that. And it's not your fault that you felt that way. It's just whether it's ridiculous or not. It doesn't matter if it's ridiculous or not, because it could be that, you know, you have a thing about corn and someone says the word corn and it just brings back memories of wiping your butt with corn.

John [00:29:50]: What?

Nicole [00:29:51]: Corn cobs. You know, the corn. Remember when we looked up that people used to wipe their butt with corn cobs? This is a thing. It's a weird. Look it up. Right? It's weird. But it's. But whatever. You had some kind of trauma behind that. Like, you can't control that. That brings up a trauma to you. Right. And I couldn't know it necessarily. So. So what it comes down to then is, is this idea that what has to happen is that the empathy has to be there. So even if I meant it completely innocent, and I did, and you know I did now. Right?

John [00:30:26]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:28]: I could get upset at you and I could say, hey, look, why are you getting upset about this thing? That's not a big deal. Like, do you think that I'm a bad guy? That I would mean this bad?

John [00:30:38]: I don't mean it in that moment. You did.

Nicole [00:30:40]: I did. I did. I did respond like that. I met. I messed up. Let's be clear. Okay.

John [00:30:43]: No, I'm not trying to say that, but I'm just trying to say, like, yeah, what you're talking about actually did happen in that instance.

Nicole [00:30:49]: It did. It did. Because that's the thought. That's a defensive. Right? Because it's like, hey, I didn't even do anything wrong at all. And it's like, it was an extreme defensive on my part because I was like, if you say something to someone, if you express a hurt and they misinterpret it, and then you're defensive about it because it's like, okay, that's a reasonable misinterpretation. Right. Or they're offended by the thing, and then you could be defensive. But I said something in my mind, that was totally innocent. We weren't even in a conflict. I wasn't even upset at you, you weren't upset at me, and then all of a sudden you're upset about this thing. So I was like, okay, well, let me defend myself. Let me say what I actually meant. And I was even just trying to say, hey, it's just innocent. I didn't mean anything about it. But where I'm getting. You're going to like where I'm getting to. So I know it's a little.

John [00:31:38]: I think.

Nicole [00:31:39]: I'm not. You will, just looking at the look on your face. But the point is, what I'm saying is that your response to that was an involuntary response of hurt. Whether I meant it or not, whether it's absolutely ridiculous, like wiping your butt with corn or not.

John [00:31:55]: You just want to throw that in there as many times as you can.

Nicole [00:31:58]: So the proper response from me, which I didn't do in that case, is just to be empathetic about it. It's like, hey, and especially as a man, okay, because this advice applies more to men than to women, is that women are going to be emotional about a lot of stuff.

John [00:32:14]: We're emotional stuff.

Nicole [00:32:16]: That doesn't make any sense. And it's not personal to you. She could literally just be that time of the month and going through very high estrogen or low estrogen levels, and she'll cry at a Hallmark commercial or some kind of thing.

John [00:32:33]: I mean, that could happen at any time.

Nicole [00:32:34]: At any time, but something very small. Good. So there's.

John [00:32:38]: There's a lot, man. It's small, but, you know, being more, like, emotional, like, we are more sensitive to those type of things, like, to anything, really. So it's like, that's part of being emotional. Like, being emotional is sensitive.

Nicole [00:32:52]: Right? Exactly, Exactly.

John [00:32:53]: So, like, like the gummy thing, like, I was more sensitive to the thing that you said, right. Just because I like. I mean, like you said, it could have been some trigger thing, and it probably is to some degree. But also, I'm just, like, more sensitive. Like, I'm more emotional. And I, like, want to tell you how I felt about it.

Nicole [00:33:12]: And there's nothing wrong with that. And that's the thing is it's. It's.

John [00:33:15]: But I think men often, like, can't. Like, they want to logical, like, their way out of it.

Nicole [00:33:22]: Because, look, if I do something. If I said to you, oh, you. The gummies, you're. You're lazy. You don't even eat gummies, or you don't Care about your health, you know, something like that, Something mean, and then you're upset. Then I'm like, okay, well, it makes sense, right? But if I don't do anything wrong at all, and this is where I always trip up, is like, I didn't do anything wrong. So therefore, you shouldn't react this way. Right. And so it's like trying to control the reaction. It's like, it doesn't matter. As a man, you have to realize that it doesn't matter why she's upset. It does matter how that upsetness is expressed. But all you're looking for in that case is empathy. Like, I could have ended that discussion just by saying, oh, wow, I'm sorry that I came across that way. Sorry that I made you feel that way, or, oh, wow, tell me more about how that made you feel when I said that. Oh, okay. Oh, that you felt like that because of that. Oh, wow, I understand. I wouldn't want to feel like that. I wouldn't want to make you feel like that. No defensiveness, no explanation for why I did it or I didn't mean anything by it. Because the default for men is to say, oh, I didn't mean to do that. I didn't. Which it's such a subtle difference between. Between saying, oh, wow, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I'm sorry even that I said something that caused you to feel that way. Or I empathize with your emotion as opposed to, I didn't mean to do that. That's not what I'm trying to do. It's like, I didn't do anything wrong.

John [00:34:53]: Well, I can't remember the guy's name, but he explained this really well. I think I saw him on TikTok. He says that guys typically take it really personally. Right, Right. Like, which. Okay, don't get me wrong. Anybody's gonna take things personally with criticism. Like, women, man, doesn't matter.

Nicole [00:35:15]: Right.

John [00:35:16]: But typically where men, like, kind of go down the wrong path is like, a woman will be like, hey, the way you told me you don't really eat those anyway. When I had the apple cider gummies out, like, hurt my feelings. And then he takes it personally.

Nicole [00:35:33]: Right?

John [00:35:33]: Like, right. He's like, oh, she hates me. Or like, she's like. Like, you think I'm that kind of man.

Nicole [00:35:38]: Exactly.

John [00:35:39]: And then, yeah, he's like, then he.

Nicole [00:35:41]: Or, why are you picking on me? Like, why are you picking on me? This is not a deal. Why are you Picking.

John [00:35:45]: Then he goes into defensive mode and tries to protect himself.

Nicole [00:35:49]: Right.

John [00:35:50]: And so what he said in the Tick Tock is exactly what you said. You know, you got. You have to, like, realize that, like.

Nicole [00:35:56]: It doesn't matter why.

John [00:35:57]: Yeah. Because, like, you can't. It's not going to be logical a lot of the time. Like, sometimes it is.

Nicole [00:36:03]: Yeah.

John [00:36:03]: But like, women. What really, women really are, like, saying when they come to you hurt, like, again, you have to say it in the appropriate way. Like, they should not be yelling at you, calling you names, whatever.

Nicole [00:36:15]: Of course.

John [00:36:16]: But they're not trying to blame you. They're trying to reconnect with you. And I know you know that because you know that, like, if a woman is upset about something, she needs love. More love.

Nicole [00:36:26]: That's always.

John [00:36:26]: But. And that is what a woman really wants. Like, don't get me wrong, there are probably some women that, like, are trying to tear a man down and, like, really get to him.

Nicole [00:36:34]: But usually because they have felt unloved for such a long time is usually the reason. Women are not just naturally evil, usually.

John [00:36:40]: But women want reconnection. Like, even just a simple, like, I'm so sorry. And a hug can do so much. Like, because that's, like, enough a lot of the time. Like, if it's something like that, obviously, if it's like a bigger issue, it's gonna take more talking. And, you know, a lot of the things that we talked about already when dealing with the conflict. But if it's something like the apple cider vinegar gummies.

Nicole [00:37:03]: Yeah. But even, like, you know, we did this in one of my YouTube videos where we were at a place and I was waiting for the waiter to, you know, a winery. And even though we don't drink anymore, but, you know, I kissed you, and I was looking to see if the waiter was. Because we're waiting on the waiter and you got upset about it and it's like, look, it doesn't even matter. Like, right.

John [00:37:25]: Because in my female brain, I'm like. He can't even close his eyes for five seconds to be like, I love.

Nicole [00:37:32]: You 100 times a day. I kissed you 50 times today already. Like, we're here at this winery.

John [00:37:38]: Like, I'm showing John.

Nicole [00:37:41]: I know, but so in my mind, I'm like, what? Like, like, it does. It felt in that moment offensive to me. I'm like, do you not know who I am after? Do you not appreciate me? And all the things that I do feel like those were the things that were going through my mind. I'm like you're going to pick on this small thing that I didn't even intend and. And make it seem like I did something that. That's intentfully wrong to you. But that's not the way to think about it because it doesn't matter. Because in fact, I mean, it doesn't just apply to men.

John [00:38:08]: But I think that's taking. Like, that is also, like. I'm not saying that what you're saying is wrong, because it's not. You're entitled to have your own feelings about it. But if a woman's telling you that, it's because she wants all your attention in that moment, it's not about, like, she doesn't know who they are.

Nicole [00:38:24]: No, that's what the man spiral. The man spiral goes into.

John [00:38:29]: Like, you also, like, try to remember. Which women also need to try to remember things too. But if you try to remember that she's just trying to connect with you, I think that'd be beneficial to guys. Like, with this sort of thing, like, I know it's still hard anyway, we all have, like, these habits that we get into, and a lot of them are not necessarily the best habits to have, but you can create new habits. And that's. I think what we're. All we're talking about here is that, like, everybody has done these things that we're talking about that aren't necessarily the best.

Nicole [00:38:59]: Right.

John [00:39:00]: But you can develop healthier habits for your relationship and dealing with conflict and all of these things.

Nicole [00:39:07]: And what I'm saying is that in that situation or any kind of situation, when someone is hurt, it doesn't really matter why they're hurt, because we get hurt for all kinds of. I mean, women more so because they're more emotional. But men too, get hurt for ridiculous reasons. And it doesn't have to do with the other person so much as it has to do with yourself. In fact, the only way we're hurt is we allow ourselves to be hurt. Right? It's always us hurting ourselves. We think it's the other person. But the stoic view comes.

John [00:39:42]: Well, we take it personally, right?

Nicole [00:39:43]: We take it personally.

John [00:39:44]: That's where the defensiveness comes from.

Nicole [00:39:46]: But when someone's hurt, the other person needs to be empathetic and not try. And not. Because the immediate, I think more so for men, but just in general, is that when somebody expresses hurt, they're like, okay, well, is this person justified in being hurt? And that's the question that gets you in trouble, right? Because again, like with the gummy thing, I'm like, that's ridiculous. I didn't mean any offense. I just said a normal thing, right? So I'm like, I'm asking the question in my head, are you justified in being hurt?

John [00:40:20]: And then you're saying no. And then you're trying to defend your.

Nicole [00:40:24]: Idea you justified instead of just focusing on that you're hurt. It doesn't matter why you're hurt, right? If you fell down because you tripped over your own feet and skinned your knee, I wouldn't be like, oh, she was clumsy, so that's why she's hurt. I would be, you know what I mean? I would be like, okay, you're hurt. That's what the thing I would care about is that you're hurt, not why you got hurt, or if you weren't looking where you're going and you tripped or something like that. I wouldn't be like, oh, well, she wasn't looking where she's going, so I don't care about that she's hurt. Or let me tell her, lecture her on maybe you should be looking where you're going. And then you wouldn't get hurt while you're sitting there crying. That wouldn't be the reaction. But yet that is the reaction that we give. Like I said, even that example of the not looking at you when I was kissing you, even though it was innocent on my part, I asked the question in my head, is she justified in being hurt? And by evaluating that and coming to the conclusion, no, then I dismissed the hurt, and that's the mistake. And it doesn't just apply to men. Women can do the same thing, but it's more likely that men would do that because they're more logically going to say, does this make sense? Is this something that you know well?

John [00:41:34]: And I think it's important, too, for men to come from a vulnerable place as well, too, like, when they are hurt, because they don't always express their hurt in the most vulnerable, vulnerable way either.

Nicole [00:41:46]: Right?

John [00:41:47]: So that's also important because, like, a woman's true nature is, like, nurturing and caring. Right? And it's so much easier for a woman to, like, be. Stay in that mode.

Nicole [00:42:00]: Right?

John [00:42:00]: Like. Like, it's like when a little baby animals, like, come up to you and it's hurt and you're like, oh, here for you. Like, I'm not saying that a guy has to be like, help me, you know? No, but like, if he's coming from a place of like, hey, when you said this is like, hurt me rather than like, you know, Just going straight into, like, how could you do this to me? I can't believe you. And women can do that, too. Yeah, but so either way, like, both people need to come from the perspective of, like, being vulnerable because it's also a lot easier for the person listening to, you know, have that automatic, like, response of just caring what you're going through and being empathetic towards you. And, you know, but even if you don't do it perfect, like you said, you do have to just, like, listen to what the person's saying and not just try to defend yourself or try to understand them or take it personally. Like, just be there in that moment, put yourself in their shoes and see where they're coming from. But I do think it's important to mention that people should try to come from a place of vulnerability. And, like, that means, like, not saying things that are, like, aggressive or anything like that when you are hurt. Like, I know that that is, you know, easy for people to do and get in that, you know, habit of doing, but you can, you know, rein it back in. But I would say, like, what do you think that women should do differently? Like, I think it's very important for women to choose their. I do think it's important for women to choose their words and to not yell and to not, you know, let their mind go from point A to point Z in, like, five seconds and bring all of that into the equation as well, too. But is there anything that you would recommend that might help women talk to men in a way that doesn't cause the boxing gloves to come out?

Nicole [00:43:59]: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, as I've thought about this and reflected on this myself, I have to say, though, that it is more. The man is supposed to be the leader. Right. This is what I talk about a lot on this podcast. And so, yeah, there's things you could say that a woman could do differently, but the man should be showing it, not telling it, because, like, leading by example. Because women don't respond to criticism. They respond to encouragement. Men more so respond to criticism. Not to say that you should necessarily criticize a man all the time, but I'm saying that a man is more likely to respond to criticism, especially in a relationship, I would say, or with a friend or something like that. If I criticize my friend and he's a man, he's gonna get what I'm saying, and that's fine. It's not gonna be like that. But women respond more to praise than to.

John [00:44:57]: I think it's Important to bring this up really quick. And even in the situation you're talking about, it is way more likely to follow a leader if they're leading by example.

Nicole [00:45:09]: That's what. Yeah, that's where I'm going.

John [00:45:10]: Yeah. So like, you know, a woman is going to follow your lead if she can trust that you're always leading by example. And I'm not saying that you can't have mishaps and things like that. That happens.

Nicole [00:45:22]: But Almost, you know, 90% of time, if I go back and I look at my history and I look at our history and I look at. And I'm like, whatever the thing was, if I would have just approached it with an empathetic, not trying to be understood, but trying to understand you approach, it would have solved the problem very quickly and you would have probably dealt with whatever I had to say in an inappropriate way. I don't think that. Again, not to say that there's not ever things. But. But whatever things that I think a woman needs to work on in a relationship or the conflict, it's best if the man leads by example, showing those things, because it's also really hard for a woman. A man has more of the ability to do it. I'll tell you why. Because a man can be more analytical in the situation and is not as overtaken by his emotions. Not to say that a woman couldn't learn some stoic principles and it wouldn't serve her. Those are true. But a man generally has. Has more of the ability to do it. And so if a man can do that and show empathy and validate a woman's emotions, most of the time, that solves the problem right there. And she's in a much more responsive place than listen to what he has to say. And so that's why I would say that it's like, yeah, women could focus on things, but they're probably not going to solve the problem. It's probably going to be the man solving the problem by. By doing the right thing with that.

John [00:46:58]: Well, we've talked about this too with your sister when she came to visit, that her and I both had the same profound moment in therapy. Right. It was just someone saying, I'm sorry you went through that. Or I'm like, I'm sorry that happened to you. And so that's why when we were talking earlier, that if a woman comes to you and she's like, hey, this hurt me. If you're just like, I'm so sorry. Give her a big hug. Most of the time you just Ended it, you know, she feels so much better. She's not spiraling, you know, on all these other things.

Nicole [00:47:31]: Right.

John [00:47:31]: And bringing that in, she feels, like, healed in a way from that hurt. Like, so a lot of times it's not even that complicated. Yeah, but yeah. And to go on what you said, too, as a woman, it is harder to influence a man.

Nicole [00:47:51]: It is.

John [00:47:51]: So, like, even if I was doing all the right things, right.

Nicole [00:47:54]: It doesn't.

John [00:47:55]: You aren't gonna be looking at me like, oh, I should follow her lead. You know, obviously we have conversations and we, like, talk about things and we work as a team, but, like, you're not gonna be looking like, oh, I should be like her. Right. And not that a woman's like, oh, I should be like him, but if you're in a relationship where the guy's leading the relationship.

Nicole [00:48:14]: Right.

John [00:48:15]: He needs to be doing the right thing a majority of the time. Otherwise, then you can create even more problems. Like, you know, well, who's leading the ship right now?

Nicole [00:48:25]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And ultimately it comes down to his responsibility. And so if there is one thing I would say to wrap it up about what women could do better in the conflict, I would say that it is just coming with a hurt instead of an anger.

John [00:48:42]: Right.

Nicole [00:48:43]: So if you come. Most men, even if they are emotionally illiterate, if you come to a man and, and you're in a relationship with him, if he cares about you and you say, oh, I'm hurt, he's probably going to respond at least in a semi decent way.

John [00:49:03]: Well, that's kind of like I said, with like the baby wounded animal. Like, if anybody comes to you in that vulnerable state, your instinct is not to attack the wounded person. Whether you're a man or a female.

Nicole [00:49:14]: A man has to be a little bit more skillful. If a woman comes to him and says, why did you do this? Like, I'm really upset about this, or I'm really hurt by this. That's not actually expressing it. That's not actually really being vulnerable. Then he has to be skillful to, to, to dissect that and be like, oh, I, I didn't mean to make you feel that. Like, he has to not be defensive. He has to now. So it makes it a little bit easier for the man's job if the woman comes to him with a completely open heart, like, my heart's in your hands. Do with it as you will and trust that he will do the right thing. And sometimes he might not, but a majority of the time, he probably Will in that case. Which brings me to the final closing point.

John [00:49:53]: I was going to say. Wait, I want to say one more thing.

Nicole [00:49:54]: Go ahead.

John [00:49:55]: Just a quick thing. I don't want to go too much into it, but I think it's really important for men not to try to get rid of women. Being emotional.

Nicole [00:50:03]: Yes. That's a whole episode.

John [00:50:06]: But I needed to say that before we ended because men might be like, oh, well, let me just take the emotion out and then it will be good. We can just. You'll be logical all the time. But, yeah, don't, like. Like, embrace that part of her. Yeah. Like, I mean, and you guys can learn together to, like, handle the conflicts in a better way. And it. You'll. And you'll like that about her.

Nicole [00:50:30]: I'll tell one quick story about that. Since it is so important. We do need to do a whole episode on. It is we were watching Jurassic Park. Park, Lost World or whatever. It's a crappy movie. And there's this part at the end of the movie where. Or at the beginning of the movie where they're leaving behind the island. The volcano blows up and everyone gets on the boat.

John [00:50:46]: You're just talking about it.

Nicole [00:50:48]: And the brontosaurus is left behind, and.

John [00:50:51]: He'S on a flaming island.

Nicole [00:50:53]: And, like, it's so sad. And we're watching him die and we're watching the movie. And I have no emotional responses at all. I'm like, this is an animal. First of all, it's an A CGI image. And second of all, it's a dinosaur. Like, you know, I don't care. Dinosaur. It's not even real. It's not even close to real. Right. Dinosaurs went extinct from a meteor all day. Dinosaurs die from a meteor. So this is what I'm being like. It doesn't even phase me in the slightest bit. Right. Then I look over at Nicole and she's crying.

John [00:51:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:22]: And I'm. And at first I was. My first instinct was to explain it and be like, are you crazy? This is. Are you seriously crying?

John [00:51:29]: I know all the things that you.

Nicole [00:51:30]: Just said, but that was my first instinct. And then I realized that, no, this is beautiful. It's not crazy. It's beautiful. Why? Because I want a woman, especially a woman that is raising my daughter and taking care of her to be that level of caring. It's a beautiful thing that women are emotional. It's not. You know, as a man, I see a man doing that, I'm like, bro, like, what the hell? You know, because you gotta be tough you gotta be. But you need both the masculine and the feminine. That's really what this podcast is about. And if you try, as a man to make a woman like you because you think it's good for her, because it's good for you, you're going to be missing the other side of it, and it's not what you want, and you're not going to have very good sex either. So, you know, that's it. It's true.

John [00:52:19]: Jesus.

Nicole [00:52:20]: All right. But the last thing I was going to say was this summary of, like, which you said at the beginning, which is the general rule is to look out for each other's heart, not your own. Because if I am 100% constantly in a conflict or otherwise just thinking, how is Nicole feeling and how am I making her feel and how can I protect her heart and not trying to protect my own and she's doing the same, then you never are gonna have a problem, because that's all you need to do. And that's the thing. Keep your eyes on the prize. That's the. That's it.

John [00:52:57]: So that's true. All right, well, so our thing that we dealt with this week is basically what we just talked about. So it's kind of hard to dive more into it, but I guess we can just talk about how everything we just mentioned we were doing wrong. And we fell into the loop of it for quite a bit of time, actually, and to the point where we were like, okay, this is like, we're doing it way wrong. And it's kind of like, unfortunately, it took us a while to.

Nicole [00:53:26]: Yeah.

John [00:53:26]: Really realized that we were just going about it wrong.

Nicole [00:53:29]: And it's not like we were screaming and.

John [00:53:31]: No.

Nicole [00:53:32]: And, like, calling each other names. Our. Our version, Nicole and I's version, is to spend six hours talking about, literally, like, to just keep on going back and forth for six hours. So that's. That's our version of it. But. But I take responsibility because, like I said, as that's. I learned a lot from the experience, and it was helpful also.

John [00:53:52]: Yeah, but there were some, like, conversations that we had that I definitely. I did not do the right thing. Like, there was one where I did say things I didn't mean when I was upset with you, and they weren't bad, and I don't normally do that, but that was like. That's when I knew. I was like. I'm like, something is, like, really off in me because that's not my automatic response. I don't. I wasn't even, like, trying to Hurt you. I think I just was, like, so overwhelmed with, like, all the conversations that we had had that I was just, like, acting out like a kid or something, you know, so it's not okay to do it. And I felt so bad because, like, we talk about not doing it that way, and I had done thing, you know, and we'd also talked about things that I needed to work on. And, you know, there's things that you need to work on. And so we've talked about those things. So, you know, we're not perfect. Like, that's why we started doing this.

Nicole [00:54:45]: Because we're better than perfect.

John [00:54:46]: Like, we make all the mistakes, but we really try to learn from them. And that's just where we're trying to be helpful to everybody else, because, yeah, like, we are bringing you the things that we're learning the hard way. And sometimes you do have to learn things the hard way, because that's what really sticks. But if you can give good advice that stem from actually making the mistakes and learning the lessons.

Nicole [00:55:10]: Yeah.

John [00:55:11]: Then I feel like it is good to put those things out there, to try to help somebody do the right thing from the beginning. And even if you mess up, you'll figure it out.

Nicole [00:55:21]: Yeah. And I learned this week, like I said, a lot of the conflicts, the things that we went through. I learned that when I am hurt, my default tendency is to close and to withdraw love. But I did learn through this process, which, again, something, maybe I could remember how to do, which is to love through the pain and to not even focus on the being hurt. To just look out for you and to do that. And when I started doing that, then things got a lot better. Things resolved a lot easier.

John [00:56:01]: That's true.

Nicole [00:56:02]: Yeah. All right. I guess that's for this episode.

John [00:56:05]: Yeah, I mean, I guess for this one. We kind of talked about it already, so.

Nicole [00:56:10]: All right.

John [00:56:10]: See you next week, Jinx.